Jocko Podcast 8: USMC Manual(Book Review), Physical Limits, Injuries, Fear of Public Speaking

0:00:00 - Book Review: The USMC Manual 1:05:02 - Injury, recovery, and mentality for quicker recovery. Finding Physical limits without recovery. 1:11:15 - What injuries has Jocko gotten? And how did he adapt? 1:19:28 - Fear of Public Speaking and other things. 1:26:42 - When you know you're "that guy" as a leader. 1:31:41 - What is Jocko's biggest weakness? And what is he doing to work through it? Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast, number eight, with Echo Charles, and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  In 1952, a young Marine, Robert A. Gannon, arrived onshore at Incheon, Korea, where he was going to be shipped north to fight. As they gathered to head north, he saw stacks of sea bags, which is like a military duffel bag, and he saw them sitting in the rain.

• 0:40Jocko Willink?

  No one had to explain what they were doing there, or why. They belonged to Marines that had been killed on the front.

• 0:50Jocko Willink?

  He wrote this poem, years later, about seeing those sandbags, seeing those sea bags piled high.

• 1:04Jocko Willink?

  "When clouds are gray and lowering, and fog obscures the plain, I sometimes think I catch a sight of sea bags in the rain.

• 1:16Jocko Willink?

  I know it is a vision too ethereal to last, but it brings a wisp of sadness and a haunting of the past."

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  We had come ashore at Incheon in 1952, an administrative landing, just a unit passing through.

• 1:35Jocko Willink?

  We mustered at the railhead, lining up to board a train. When through the stormy darkness, I saw sea bags in the rain.

• 1:47Jocko Willink?

  There was no need to question why they were lying there, looking lonely and abandoned in the damp Korean air.

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  Their owners had gone northward and would not return again, from where hells of bitter battle took the lives of fighting men."

• 2:10Jocko Willink?

  Now when fog and darkness gather, I rarely can restrain my saddened thoughts of Incheon and sea bags in the rain.

• 2:21Jocko Willink?

  So imagine that you're a young Marine who has joined the Marine Corps and you're fired up and you have the visions of glory and that romantic vision in your mind of what war is gonna be like. And you get to Korea and it's an administrative landing, so there's no shooting going on and you're, now you're on the ground and you're in Korea. And then you muster to go north and go to the battlefield, go to the front. And you see these sea bags of all these Marines that have been killed in combat.

• 2:58Jocko Willink?

  And you can imagine what that does psychologically to guys and obviously to, uh, Robert A. Gannon. It affects him, affected him his whole life and he still thinks about it. And as much of a intense experience as that is,

• 3:23Jocko Willink?

  the Marine Corps has been walking past those bags, you know, theoretically walking past those bags for over 200 years. And going forward, going into the fray, towards the risk, towards, in many cases, toward death.

• 3:48Jocko Willink?

  And I'm kinda leading in with talking about the Marine Corps tonight, who I have just absolute respect for, the United States Marine Corps. We worked closely with them when we were in Ramadi in 2006, mostly with the, the 38 Marines, which is the 3rd Battalion 8th Marine Regiment. And they were there for the bulk of the deployment with us.

• 4:15Jocko Willink?

  Then they got relieved by the one six Marines who arrived towards the end of our cruise. And but prior to that, my whole career, I was working with Marines. I was did multiple shipboard deployments with Marines. I did a turnover with the first Marsoc company in Baghdad in 2004. So I know Marines well. And like I said, they just have my absolute respect and

• 4:42Jocko Willink?

  as a warrior class, which is what they are, a warrior class of men and women, their professionalism and their commitment. It is, it's impeccable.

• 4:59Jocko Willink?

  And because they fought, you know, in all major wars, they know and understand combat very well, and therefore they know and they understand

• 5:13Jocko Willink?

  combat leadership very well.

• 5:17Jocko Willink?

  And with that, we are going to look tonight at what used to be called the FM FM one tac zero. And that was the Fleet Marine Force Manual, which is now called the MCWP, the Marine Corps Warfighting Publication Six Tac Eleven. And the title of the, of the document is called Leading Marines.

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  And so what I did is a kind of like I do with most of these books that we look at, I went through it and found the pieces that struck me as highly applicable to combat, which makes them highly applicable to life and to business and to the way we go through this world. So I've pulled some of these ideas out, some quotes out, some sections out to talk about.

• 6:25Jocko Willink?

  And discuss.

• 6:28Jocko Willink?

  And here we go.

• 6:31Jocko Willink?

  Imagine you are a rifleman in a company, ready to assault a line of enemy machine gun bunkers.

• 6:39Jocko Willink?

  You are lying flat on the ground, protected for the moment by a slight rise between you and the enemy. But just above your head, the enemy's guns are throwing a visible and audible curtain of lead, which thuds into the trees around you, causing you to wonder if it makes the same sound when it hits flesh.

• 7:02Jocko Willink?

  You tell yourself, "It's impossible." "Impossible to penetrate that curtain of fire alive." Yet, in a moment, a sergeant's voice will boom, "Let's go! You can't live forever."

• 7:18Jocko Willink?

  But all you hear now is the clatter of machine guns. The vision of dead and wounded you saw on the way up to the front rises to plague you. Your belly deflates and lies flat against your backbone. And all the gallant thoughts you would hope to have at this moment are gone. You are naked and alone with the instinct of self-preservation.

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  And that's what soldiers and Marines face, not all of them, but many of them. And they, in these situations, and situations even worse than this, they do decide to go forward. They decide to go forward into that maelstrom of fire and of death.

• 8:20Jocko Willink?

  And soldiers and warriors have done that for thousands of years. And you ask yourself, and the purpose that they wrote that paragraph was so that they could ask that question, why?

• 8:36Jocko Willink?

  And here's what the Marine Corps says about it. Why do individuals rush forward against their most basic instincts? Why do Marines take their lives in their hands and lead a charge straight into enemy guns? In World War II, what was it that made Marines clamber out of their landing craft, landing craft into water of unknown depth and charge into a hail of machine gun and artillery fire, not knowing whether they would ever make it to the beach?

• 9:06Jocko Willink?

  In Vietnam, what was it that made a Marine take the point and start down the dark and misty jungle trail? At the heart of why Marines are able to put mission accomplishment over concern for their own safety is leadership. Leadership, that is the combination of the intangible elements of our ethos and the more tangible elements of our leadership philosophy.

• 9:34Jocko Willink?

  So they're saying that this courage comes from the leadership and from the ethos that they live that is, that is brought to the troopers through the leadership, which is a pretty profound statement. It's a very profound statement. And I jumped out of this manual for a moment and I grabbed sort of the Marine Corps principles of leadership, their key words. Here they are, justice, judgment, dependability, initiative, decisiveness, tact, integrity, enthusiasm, bearing, unselfishness, courage, knowledge, loyalty, endurance.

• 10:20Jocko Willink?

  Those are the traits that they talk about and what I actually from that list. I think they're all pretty.

• 10:28Jocko Willink?

  Pretty obvious why they're on that list. The one exception. Or I would say the one that stands out to me a little bit as maybe what people wouldn't expect is tact.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:39Jocko Willink?

  I didn't say tactical or tactics. I said tact and they actually go on to define that a little bit further. The definition of tact is the ability to deal with others in a manner that will maintain good relations and avoid offense. More simply stated, tact is the ability to say and do the right thing at the right time. So. Obviously, almost every time we sit down at this podcast table and do our work here, we end up somehow talking about. The interactions between human beings and they actually put this as a one of their tenants is that you have to have tact.

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  The the quality of consistently treating peers, seniors and subordinates with respect and courtesy is a sign of maturity. Tact allows commands, guidance and opinions to be expressed in a constructive and beneficial manner.

• 11:38Jocko Willink?

  This deference must be extended under all conditions regardless of true feelings.

• 11:46Jocko Willink?

  Regardless of true feelings. They are saying you despite the fact that that person annoys you or that you think you can do a better job. Or all those things that we talk about regularly here, you have to have tact regardless of your true feelings.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you know, you know, people.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Rude people, for example, they'll they'll they'll. Say stuff like, hey, it was true, you know, they'll say something that's rude or whatever and they'll be like, hey. Um, I speak the truth. If you don't like it, kind of that's like lack of tact.

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  That is.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  I've always I've always thought that where.

• 12:23Jocko Willink?

  You always wonder why those people.

• 12:26Jocko Willink?

  Aren't in leadership positions.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for the most part. They don't have tact.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:31Jocko Willink?

  Because who wants to be around somebody that acts like this? And what's interesting about it is, you know, one of the other words that they have on there is integrity. Right? And yet, they're saying that, you know, regardless of your true feelings. So, there's a little bit of a dichotomy there, you know? And to be the person that says, well, it's true, so I'm just gonna say it.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:48Jocko Willink?

  No, tact should override integrity in dealing with people and human emotions.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it, that's kind of what I've always thought when I hear people say rude things and be like, oh, it's okay for me to say these kinds of, kinds of things because they're true. Even though a lot of times it's just their opinion, but they kind of, it's cloaked in this like, presentation that they're just being honest.

• 13:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  You know? So, yeah, that's interesting how it's, how they're saying the tact overrides that quote unquote honesty.

• 13:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Um, you know, for the, for the sake of leadership or the group or whatever.

• 13:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no doubt about it. Um, so now as we get into this, in what leaders, what leaders are actually leading against. Now, of course, there's an enemy. You're right, there's a force that's opposing you, so you're leading against them, but they have another word that, and the word is friction. And this is something for anybody that knows anything about sort of military science, understand, understands and has heard the word friction before. And it's a word that comes from Karl von Clausewitz, who was a great Prussian general, born in seventeen eighty, fought in the Rhine campaigns and the Napoleonic wars, was a famous military theorist.

• 14:04Jocko Willink?

  And he wrote the famous book, Von Craig, which means on war. So that was his, that was his sort of masterpiece that he wrote, and it's well read by anybody that's in the military. It has read, On War by Clausewitz. So, friction is a term that he coined, as far as I know. It's a term that he coined, I haven't read it prior to him. And to talk about friction here is what Clausewitz says about it. And this is from On War. Then again, I departed from the Marine Corps manual here for a few minutes to go a little bit deeper into friction.

• 14:46Jocko Willink?

  Everything is very simple in war, but the simplest thing is difficult.

• 14:54Jocko Willink?

  These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen war. So in war, through an influence of an infinite of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us and we fall short of the rank. So this idea of friction is all the little things that build up against you and against what you're trying to accomplish. And I love what he says next. A powerful

• 15:32Jocko Willink?

  iron will overcomes this friction. It crushes the obstacles. So your will can overcome them. But there's a but, there's a caveat. But certainly, the machine along with them. So your iron will can smash these obstacles, but it does take a toll on the will. The strong will of a proud spirit stands prominent and commanding in the middle of the art of war. And we'll get to will a little bit later, but right now we're talking about friction. Activity in war is movement in a resistant medium. So it's, you know, as opposed to

• 16:15Jocko Willink?

  doing stuff on the ground and the air, you're doing it in water, or you're doing it in oil, you're doing it in something that is slowing you down and stops you. It is therefore this friction, or what is so termed here, which makes that which appears easy in war, difficult in reality. And I will tell you, in working with all kinds of companies and businesses, there's friction in every business. There's friction in everything, every...

• 16:45Jocko Willink?

  Goal that people have in a business world, there's friction and resistance that's trying to stop you from getting there. And obviously, that just slides right over into your life. And those goals that you have, and you're fighting against this friction. And what is this friction? This friction is everything. It's everything that is stopping you from achieving your goal. And in war, it's what the enemy does. It's the weather. It's the lack of ammunition. It's the, it's the materials that you need that aren't arriving in time. It's a muddy road. It's a strong, a strong wind. It's all these little things. It's the weird attitude of your subordinates. It's the, it's the mental capacity of your leadership. It's all these things create this friction that are going to stop you from achieving your goals, or at least it's going to try to stop you from achieving

• 17:30Jocko Willink?

  your goals. And it's the same thing when you get a business that's trying to make something happen. You know, when you go to formulate a business, this is not an easy process. This is a challenging process, and there's friction that comes up against you. And obviously, like I said, with your personal goals, we see friction all the time. Now, the Marine Corps, here's their take. So that was from Klaus Fetsch. And it was a little bit of an abridged version, but you know, I'm abridging. So this one is the Marine Corps. And you'll notice a little bit more clarity because it's written directly in English by Marines. So it's, it's clearer. And here's the Marine Corps take on friction.

• 18:15Jocko Willink?

  Friction dominates war. It makes simple tasks hard, acts constantly to tear down the will of the individual Marine, and interferes with unit cohesion. It operates across the entire spectrum of conflict, from garrison activities to combat, from senior command elements down to the most forward fighting position. So the friction is everywhere. It's everywhere. It's on the frontline, troopers are feeling friction. You know, the, the senior command has friction. That, in this day and age, that friction can be loss of connectivity. You know, you're sitting there on the, on the internet when you're trying to communicate with troops that are in the field nowadays.

• 18:58Jocko Willink?

  That internet goes down, there's friction, or your broadband cable gets stuffed up. It's literally, that's friction. Everything is friction. Friction can be caused by external factors. Such as physical environment, the nature of the mission, or friendly or enemy action. Inadequate or inaccurate intelligence also contributes to friction by causing uncertainty. This uncertainty is sometimes called the fog of war. Where things are not always what the leader expected. This expression, this expression describes both the literal fog created by dust, smoke, and debris on the battlefield. And more importantly, the mental fog of confusion and uncertainty.

• 19:42Jocko Willink?

  Created by lack of knowledge of the enemy, chaotic noise, mental and physical fatigue, and fear.

• 19:51Jocko Willink?

  And interestingly.

• 19:54Jocko Willink?

  Leif and I, the, the book that we wrote, Extreme Ownership, the, the first chapter. It, it's called the fog of war. And it is, and, and I. Talk about this fact right here. It was the literal fog of war because it was burning tires in the streets, creating soot everywhere. And there was. Concrete dust floating through the air and smoke from machine guns and, and smoke from smoke grenades. And so there's a literal fog of war where you can't see. And then on top of that, you add the. Theoretical fog where I didn't know where everyone was and I wasn't sure what was happening. And so this fog of war is so very real.

• 20:30Jocko Willink?

  Friction's most lethal form. It's most lethal form, however.

• 20:39Jocko Willink?

  Is self-induced. And may be termed internal friction. So this. Again, it's just incredible how these. Theories of war, parallel life. And although you have these things that are going on in your world that are trying to stop you from achieving your goals.

• 21:02Jocko Willink?

  The most lethal form of friction is self-induced. It's what you do to yourself.

• 21:10Jocko Willink?

  Fear of the unknown breeds this paralysis. It is best overcome by vigorous leadership, which clearly sets out what is happening, how it is happening, and most importantly, why is, why it is happening. So again, it is

• 21:31Jocko Willink?

  almost, I don't know if at some point I'm gonna stop being surprised and stop being shocked and stop being

• 21:40Jocko Willink?

  stop being amazed in the, in the parallels between

• 21:46Jocko Willink?

  war and life. And this is just one of them. Another one of them.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  To the, the self-induced friction?

• 21:54Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  I think a big one that I've kinda noticed in, I think, most people have this is, is pet peeves. You know, people have these pet peeves about, like for example, when people call me boss, you know, you know, you know, when people say, hey, what's up?

• 22:08Jocko Willink?

  You, you talked about on the first, first podcast.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 22:12Jocko Willink?

  Causes some friction with Echo Charles.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's totally self-induced. Don't mean anything bad by the word boss. But meanwhile, I'm like, I have this little, almost like check against them, you know, because they referred to me as boss or dude. I don't know why dude, not, actually, you know what? If a girl calls me dude, it's like, it's, it seems real condescending, even though I, I figure they don't. But that could jam up the relationship and potentially jam up any kind of, you know, task we have. That can be just, just one little element that'd jam you up. And pet peeves in general, you know, it'll get in people's way.

• 22:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, pet peeves are stupid, in my opinion. So you need to correct yourself on that one.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:53Jocko Willink?

  But there are, I mean, it's, we could, we could just sit here and the rest of this podcast could be you and I coming up with the various frictions in life, whether it's, you know, wanting to sleep more, wanting to not, not, the gym isn't close enough to my house, the, you, you know, it's, you got a million reasons. You get a million pieces of friction. Countless, or as they say, as the Marine Corps says, countless minor incidents, the kind you can never really foresee, combine to lower the general level of performance, so that one always falls short of the intended goal.

• 23:30Jocko Willink?

  And this is very similar to Clausewitz here. Iron willpower can overcome this friction. It pulverizes every obstacle. But of course, it wears down the machine as well. You can see they obviously took that directly from Clausewitz.

• 23:47Jocko Willink?

  Whatever form it takes, because war is a human enterprise, friction will always have a psychological as well as a physical impact. So you're getting worn. You are getting worn down by the friction. Friction is inevitable. Marine leaders must accept it. Do everything in their power to minimize its effects and learn to fight effectively in spite of it.

• 24:11Jocko Willink?

  What I, one of the things that I really like about this term is that it captures everything. And it turns everything, you know, it, it, it clarifies what you're up against. You're not just up against all these little things. You're up against friction. Right. And actually, I was with Joe Rogan. And he talked about this book, The War of Art, which I haven't read yet by Pressfield. And he, he does the same thing. But what does he call it? He calls it resistance. And so it's the same idea. You know, you put a name on your enemy. You identify them, whether it's laziness or

• 24:54Jocko Willink?

  sugar or lack of movement or whatever that thing is. That's what they do. And, and it allows you to identify it and be aware of what is happening.

• 25:08Jocko Willink?

  Now, speaking of how to overcome that, this next part of leadership here is, and we already mentioned it's will.

• 25:17Jocko Willink?

  And it's something that I obviously identify as extremely important.

• 25:22Jocko Willink?

  Because it's the driver

• 25:26Jocko Willink?

  of life. It's the driver of your discipline is your will to make things happen. And it keeps us on the path, you know, it keeps us on the path to victory. And I talked about it. When I was on the Sam Harris podcast. And I also talked about it. On the History Channel when they for the Live to Tell episode, which is about Markley. The first seal killed in Iraq. And I talked about, you know, what does it take to win? And the most important thing it takes to win is will. The will to win.

• 26:00Jocko Willink?

  So the Marine Corps goes into a story that's about will.

• 26:06Jocko Willink?

  And I'm gonna read it.

• 26:11Jocko Willink?

  Assigned to defend a three mile mountain pass along the division's main supply line and commanding the only route of approach. Captain Barber took position with his battle wary troops and before nightfall. Had dug in and set up a defense along the frozen, snow covered hillside.

• 26:31Jocko Willink?

  When a force of estimated regimental strength savagely attacked during the night inflicting heavy casualties. And finally surrounding his position following a bitterly fought seven hour conflict. Captain Barber, after repulsing the enemy, gave assurance that he could hold if supplied by airdrops. And requested permission to stand fast. After orders were received to fight his way back to a relieving force. After two reinforcing units had been driven back under fierce resistance in attempts to reach the the isolated troops. So here was Captain Barber with his troops. They're on this ridge line. They hold off the enemy.

• 27:13Jocko Willink?

  And then they get told, hey, you know what? Now that you've held the enemy off, go ahead and fight back to our position. And he says, no. No, we're not fighting back. We're gonna stay here. We're gonna hold this ground. Although severely wounded, Captain Barber continued to maintain personal control, often moving up and down the lines on a stretcher to direct defense, and consistently encourage and inspiring his men to supreme efforts despite the staggering opposition. Waging desperate battle throughout five days and six nights of repeated onslaughts launched by fanatical aggressors, he and his heroic command accounted for approximately 1,000 enemy dead

• 27:56Jocko Willink?

  in this epic stand in bitter sub-zero weather. And when the company was relieved, only 82 of his original 220 men were able to walk away from the position so valiantly defended against insuperable odds. His profound faith and courage, great personal valor, and unwavering fortitude, which is in other words his will, were decisive factors in the successful withdrawal of the division from the death trap in the Chosen Reservoir Sector.

• 28:34Jocko Willink?

  That's will. And that shows you what will is capable of. I mean, when you talk about sub-zero temperatures, you just put people out in sub-zero temperatures for a night. That will break most people. Now get attacked all night.

• 28:53Jocko Willink?

  Now stay up there for five days and six nights. It's the only thing that can win in that battle is will, human will.

• 29:04Jocko Willink?

  From the same battle, Lieutenant Colonel Murray, who was commanding the 5th Marines at the Chosen Reservoir, summed up what was required of leaders. And this is very impactful when I read this. "I personally felt in a state of shock, the kind of shock one gets from some great personal tragedy, the sudden loss of someone close."

• 29:30Jocko Willink?

  So he gets into this bad situation. That's what he feels. This guy is the commander of all those Marines in the chosen reservoir. And he gets this shock. Like someone, like someone's died and he feels it. And then he says, my first fight was within myself. I had to rebuild that emptiness of spirit.

• 29:59Jocko Willink?

  And you know, I get asked, I've gotten asked on Twitter, I've gotten some direct messages, people that ask me about loss. They've lost people that are close to them, whether it's guys talking about being in combat, or whether it's people that are in civilian world and disease or accidents has taken people from them. And I think one of the things that the kind of the, the thing that I say to people when they say, look, this is, this is crushing me. And I feel horrible and I don't know if I'm going to be able to get back. And, and, and my first statement is always like, of course. Of course. And that is normal. It is normal for you to feel that way when you lose people.

• 30:45Jocko Willink?

  And you could see that this, you know, Lieutenant Colonel in combat. He went through the same thing. This hardcore badass Marine had to go, okay, I feel this loss and I have to rebuild. I have to rebuild. The fight was within himself. And so I think that's very important for people that are listening to this podcast that are in the military.

• 31:14Jocko Willink?

  You are going on the battlefield and you, if you're in the, if you're fighting long enough, you will have casualties. And that is one of the things I know when my guys were killed, I felt the same damn thing. The horrible, wretched emptiness.

• 31:37Jocko Willink?

  And I knew I had to rebuild it.

• 31:44Jocko Willink?

  And, and so reading this quote definitely brings me back to that. And it clarifies it when I talk to other people about losing someone. That that loss that you're feeling, that emptiness, that shock is normal. And it's okay. And don't think that it's gonna just disappear. You've got to rebuild it. You've got to rebuild that spirit.

• 32:15Jocko Willink?

  And so this manual goes on to say, for leaders to hold units together under adverse conditions, they first must fight and win the battle within themselves.

• 32:31Jocko Willink?

  And that's not me talking. That is this manual talking. That is the Marine Corps talking about leading Marines. They know that there's a battle going on within you. That there's a battle you've got to fight every day. That there's a spirit that's got to be rebuilt when it's broken down. This is what combat is. This is what war is. And this is what life is.

• 32:57Jocko Willink?

  It goes on to talk about the difference between peacetime and combat. Leading in combat is vastly different from leading in peacetime. Anybody can give orders and have them obeyed at a peacetime post or station.

• 33:14Jocko Willink?

  There, nothing blocks the way to obedience. The brig, meaning jail, pay reductions and demotion may be all the incentive necessary to instill good order and discipline.

• 33:26Jocko Willink?

  But execution of orders in combat may mean immediate danger or even the likelihood of getting killed. The Marines, the Marine needs to know why an order is given and how it is to be executed. We talk about this all the time. People've got to know why they're doing what they're doing. And I'll tell you, the first section of that. The Marines don't lead like that. The Marines don't go around saying, hey, you will do this, or I'll send you to the brig, or I'll give you pay reductions or demotions. That's that that's not how leadership works, and it's not that way in the Marine Corps. Of course, those are there if you need them, but you don't want to lead like that. You don't want to lead with beatings.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:08Jocko Willink?

  Above all, Marines need to feel that the leader giving the order knows what he or she is about.

• 34:17Jocko Willink?

  Even given the best trainings, how Marines perform will depend on the kind of leadership they had.

• 34:25Jocko Willink?

  By the example and courage demonstrated by their leader. Napoleon said, "There are no bad regiments, only bad colonels." Which is very interesting, and is a very common statement that Napoleon said. And, uh, you know, we've talked, we've done the the about face on this, because David Hackworth says, "There's no bad units, only bad officers." And then Leif and I, in extreme ownership, we have, "There's no bad teams, only bad leaders."

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they always say, "There's no bad students, there's only bad teachers." Or, "There's no bad students, there's only bad instructors." That's like the same, or it is the same thing.

• 35:01Jocko Willink?

  It's the same thing, and, you know, from Napoleon to Hackworth to Leif and I, saying that, uh, what the Marine Corps is saying here, "A unit led by an able and aggressive leader, aggressive leader, who commands respect because he sets the example, and demonstrated courage and confidence, will perform any task asked of them."

• 35:27Jocko Willink?

  Not some tasks, not most of the tasks, not the easy tasks, any task.

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  "Aggressive leader who commands respect because he set the example and demonstrated courage and confidence, will perform any task asked of them." That's what leadership is about.

• 35:48Jocko Willink?

  Now we get into the moral challenge. Armies of superior numbers have been put to flight before one man out of ten has fallen. They were not beaten by blows which became more than flesh could bear. They were beaten in spirit according to laws as old as the human heart. And the victor is the one who can best apply those laws. So you can have a great, a huge force, a much bigger force, and they can break before anyone's even been killed, or when only a few people have been killed because their spirit is broken.

• 36:34Jocko Willink?

  When people conduct lives built on high moral standards and physical fitness, they tend to develop qualities that produce inspired leadership and discipline. It is not a new notion. It could be found in any great military force in the past. Gaining moral ascendancy requires that subordinates feel that their leaders genuinely care for them,

• 36:57Jocko Willink?

  that they are fighting for a worthy cause, and ensuring that their sacrifices are not made in vain.

• 37:05Jocko Willink?

  I talk about that one regularly.

• 37:09Jocko Willink?

  Your, your people have gotta know that you cannot think that you care about them. They gotta know that you care about them. That's what leadership is. You're leading this group because you care about this group.

• 37:26Jocko Willink?

  Acting as a buffer to protect subordinates is a key responsibility of any leader. Leaders must avoid passing the buck. Leaders must, if necessary, act from the courage of their own convictions, even when such a position runs counter to the policy of seniors. We talked about that last time. Remember Napoleon said that if, if you're following my orders and you get a bunch of guys killed, it's your fault. You're culpable if it was a bad plan. If you listen, if you obeyed my bad order, it's your fault. It's the same thing that's being said here, even when a position runs counter to the policy of seniors.

• 38:07Jocko Willink?

  Leaders must always accept full responsibility for their actions. Hello.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Extreme.

• 38:16Jocko Willink?

  Extreme ownership, right there. Leaders must always accept full responsibility for actions. For their actions, and like you said, extreme ownership, that's what our book's about. Trying to make that

• 38:28Jocko Willink?

  at the utmost level of responsibility is to own everything that's happening. Regardless of who's at fault, who might be at fault, what other factors were in play, doesn't matter, take ownership of it all.

• 38:46Jocko Willink?

  Now we get into physical challenge.

• 38:51Jocko Willink?

  The physical demands of battle encompass more than being fit.

• 38:57Jocko Willink?

  And these demands influence both the leader and the lead.

• 39:02Jocko Willink?

  The effects of sleep deprivation, poor diet, poor hygiene, and most importantly, fear have to be understood and be a part of everyday training. No one is immune to fatigue. As Marines become increasingly tired, they may lose the ability to make rapid decisions and are susceptible to being confused, disoriented, and ultimately ineffective. Guts and pride are not a substitute for fitness. And one, one place where that becomes completely evident is

• 39:42Jocko Willink?

  in mixed martial arts, where you get guys, they got a lot of guts and they got a lot of pride. But and you think, oh, this person's never gonna tap and once they get broken down and fatigue sets in, you know, fatigue makes coward of us all, right? It's not a substitute, so guts and pride are not a substitute for fitness, they're a good augment to fitness, but they don't take the place of it.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:12Jocko Willink?

  A leader relying on guts and pride will not be able to fully concentrate on the mission or the task at hand.

• 40:20Jocko Willink?

  Exact limits of endurance cannot be determined. But physical conditioning is one method of reducing the effects of physical exertion. And it can increase individual self-confidence and reduce stress. So I always tell people to work out. That's why you gotta get up and go. Because it increases individual self-confidence, it reduces stress. I'm reduces the effect of physical exertion. It's just good. So many benefits.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's the, I think the, I mean, most important is that it reduces the, the effects later. So, you know, if you're in shape, your heart's strong, your, your mind is strong because you've worked out your whole life, or, or just, you're just into fitness, you, you perform. There was this, oh, man, I heard this thing where, it was an article where I read where it said, well, why exercise is the most important part of business? And, um, and the whole thing was, you know, it said a lot, but the whole thing was, exercise is the only thing that affects every other part of your life, the only thing. So you can have all these other traits and, you know, and sure, they might affect one thing. Most things don't affect anything, they just affect that one thing.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Like if you have money, you go, okay, you have money and that affects like X, Y, Z. But exercise will affect your ability to make money, it'll affect your relationship, it'll affect, it'll affect everything. And it's the one thing that does.

• 41:47Jocko Willink?

  Break out your jump rope, people. Get out your kettlebells.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:51Jocko Willink?

  Time to get it on.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why, that's why if you're ever, if you ever get in a relationship where the girl's like, oh, you know, you, you put the gym or jujitsu or something before me? That's a red flag.

• 42:07Jocko Willink?

  Red flag.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Yep, red flag. I'm not saying break up with them, I'm saying that's a red flag.

• 42:11Jocko Willink?

  It is a warning.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:13Jocko Willink?

  It is a warning. It's some friction.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  That's some friction, that's true.

• 42:18Jocko Willink?

  The physical development, back to the book, the physical development of marine leaders must include dealing with the nature, natural fear of interpersonal violence, which contributes significantly to the fog and friction of combat.

• 42:34Jocko Willink?

  Dealing with the fear of interpersonal violence. So I talked about this with Sam Harris. And that is if you're, you know, one of the worst things that happens when somebody gets assaulted. If they've never been had somebody on them grinding on them before and grabbing them and holding them and smashing them. They've never had that feeling before. They're already way behind. They're way behind because they're just not used to it. It's completely new to them.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:04Jocko Willink?

  Whereas obviously someone that trains in martial arts. Like jujitsu where you're getting ground on and people are smashing you and you're used to it. It's part of your deal. It's part of your life.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Man, and you and you've been in actual firefights, but. That's why getting getting some sort of a gun training gun training or firearms training is good because if you've never shot a gun before. And you fire it, you don't watching movies and stuff does not prepare you for how loud that is and like just the just the impact and your whole. Your whole thing, you know, when when you fire a gun. So if that would have happened in some stressful situation, someone attacks you or someone. Fires a gun in your presence and it's, you know, this commotion, just dealing with the fact that a gun was fired alone. Is like this huge battle that you have to that you essentially lost because you're not you're just not used to it. That's a hit, you know?

• 43:57Jocko Willink?

  You need to inoculate yourself to these situations.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:59Jocko Willink?

  And we will actually be talking about that a little later tonight.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  Units and their leaders that do not have the mental and physical strength to overcome fear will not be able to fight effectively and overcome friction. In fact, one of the greatest sources of friction is physical exertion and it may be required. Of individuals, units or both. And again, the physical exertion thing, you know.

• 44:30Jocko Willink?

  We we do at at the gym, we do Shark Tank, right? So a guy's got a fight coming up or a guy's got a tournament coming up. And so we put them in the middle and they're getting fresh guys, you know, every two minutes, one minute, sometimes four minutes, sometimes five minutes, depending on what they're going into. But you can watch and see a total destroyer of a guy. After they breach that breaking point, just get mopped up. And again, we're taking them there for a reason, you know, we're taking them there. So they do have to rely on their technique and so they do get conditioned and inoculated against that breaking point. So they learn how to dig even deeper.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:10Jocko Willink?

  But you can get anyone there. I mean, you can get anyone so physically exhausted that they're no longer capable of, you know, doing even a slight percentage of what they would normally be capable of. So you have to maintain that conditioning at the highest level all the time that you can.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  And that's like, I mean, really, like you're saying, it's

• 45:30Speaker 01

  it's not just the physical conditioning. You're conditioning them to the situation like how you said, when they're beyond their physical kind of breaking point, where they they don't have all their strength.

• 45:40Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  The the the point where you feel like stopping, going beyond that point. If you've rarely or never been beyond that point, once you get there, you're you're completely done.

• 45:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But once you realize that you can push through that.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:54Jocko Willink?

  That there's a little more than you think there is.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:56Jocko Willink?

  You get conditioned to it and you're ready for it.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:00Jocko Willink?

  The gain in moral force deriving from all forms of physical training is an unconscious gain. You know, I actually think it's not just an unconscious gain. I think it's a conscious gain too. I think when I get, when I train, I feel better. I feel stronger. I feel sharper.

• 46:21Jocko Willink?

  Willpower, determination, mental poise and muscle control are all march hand in hand with the general health and well being of the individual. So again, according to the Marine Corps, that this physical training increases your willpower, your determination, your mental poise, your muscle control. Clearly, as you stated earlier, physical training is important across the board.

• 46:58Jocko Willink?

  Establishing and maintaining standards.

• 47:03Jocko Willink?

  Maintaining this attitude and standard of excellence is a responsibility not limited to officers, staff, non-commissioned officers, or non-commissioned officers. It is the responsibility of all Marines.

• 47:18Jocko Willink?

  That's the attitude you want to have with your team, with your company, with your business. That that attitude of excellence and maintaining the standard of excellence isn't responsibility just of the leadership, it's the responsibility of everyone. Leadership, in the long run, depends upon the example set by the leader. Not only as a warfighter, but also as a citizen and a human being.

• 47:44Jocko Willink?

  So the leader has to display a high level

• 47:51Jocko Willink?

  of... I'm not sure what the right word is. A high level of bearing, a high level of presence in all situations, not just as a Marine, but in all levels.

• 48:04Jocko Willink?

  Setting a personal example requires high moral standards reflecting virtue, honor, patriotism, and subordination in personal behavior and in performance. These inner qualities that mark leaders, these are the inner qualities that mark leaders. Rather than outward marks of greatness, they are often deeply buried. And in many cases, one must look closely to see an individual's inner strengths. So you're not always gonna see, it's not always a guy beating his chest. That's the best leader. And it has an example of that here.

• 48:45Jocko Willink?

  Major General John A. Lejeune. "Describe Medal of Honor recipient Sergeant Major John H. Quick. Perhaps of all the Marines I ever knew, Quick approached more nearly the perfect type of non-commissioned officer. A calm, forceful, intelligent, loyal, and courageous man he was. I never knew him to raise his voice, lose his temper, use profane language, and yet he exacted and obtained prompt and explicit obedience from all persons subject to his orders."

• 49:25Jocko Willink?

  The image of the Marine barking orders, you have to balance that. You have to balance that with the reality of the, the example just given Sergeant Major John H. Quick.

• 49:45Jocko Willink?

  In the Marine Corps, we are trained to endure combat, violence, and death. Along with other, less arduous situations in both peace and war. Simply because we bear arms and wield awesome power. We do not have limitless authority to unleash it without due requirement.

• 50:08Jocko Willink?

  We may not say, as one enemy commander said, "Kill all, burn all, destroy all."

• 50:18Jocko Willink?

  So again, the image and the stereotype of a Marine or of a American soldier has to be balanced with the facts of who they really are.

• 50:34Jocko Willink?

  And that is that they are trained, that they don't have limitless authority to unleash

• 50:42Jocko Willink?

  the awesome power without due requirement.

• 50:47Jocko Willink?

  Now, of course, we, these are human beings. And there are military people in the Marine Corps, the Army, and the SEAL Teams and Special Operations that go over the line. And that's something that gets dealt with. So I'm not sitting here claiming that this is a, you know, a perfect situation. But I am giving you the ideal that the Marine Corps itself sets out upon its Marines of what it wants their Marines to be like.

• 51:25Jocko Willink?

  And a good, we, we actually used to say this in the SEAL teams as well. And this is how do you figure out when something is like, you know, the right thing to do? Do the right thing? Cause sometimes doing the right thing is opposed to what you're being ordered to do or what the rules are. If you are prepared to talk about your actions or lack thereof in front of a national audience, made up of all your seniors, peers, subordinates, and friends who share the same professional values and whose opinions you value, then your behavior was or is probably ethical in nature. So when you're doing something, if you say, okay, I'm gonna go on, you know, cable news tomorrow and I'm gonna debrief everybody what I did.

• 52:09Jocko Willink?

  And if you can be proud of it, then it was ethical. And if you're gonna be hanging your head low, then it wasn't a good decision. You weren't doing the right thing. And that is definitely something that I use to guide my judgment. And cause the, again, the, the rules are not always what they should be. And, or the rules, they don't fit over the situation that you're in. War is a dynamic thing. And so sometimes the rules that have been put in place for one region, they don't work in the region you're in. And so you have to say, okay, you know what? By the book, they could, they could burn me on this one.

• 52:49Jocko Willink?

  But I can look whoever's charging me and say, this is what I did and this is why I did it. And if you wanna send me to the, to Leavenworth for that, get out the handcuffs and let's go.

• 53:05Jocko Willink?

  This is a powerful, this is a powerful paragraph I'm about to read. And it's actually, if you listen to the, the Sam, the, the podcast that I did with Sam Harris, this is just a, this is a little bit of a different spin on bravery and on courage.

• 53:24Jocko Willink?

  Courage can be misunderstood. It is more than the ability to overcome the jitters, to quell fear, to conquer the desire to run. It is the ability to know what is or is not to be feared. An infantryman charging a bunker is not hampered by the fear that he might be struck down a few paces from his fighting hole.

• 53:50Jocko Willink?

  A pilot is not afraid of losing all hydraulic power in his aircraft. They are both prepared for those outcomes. A marine in battle fears disgracing himself by running. He fears not losing his life, but losing his honor.

• 54:11Jocko Willink?

  He may not be able to preserve his life, but he can always preserve his honor. That much is within his power. To fear disgrace, but not death. To fear not duty, but dereliction from duty. This is courage.

• 54:34Jocko Willink?

  The truly courageous do not live in anxiety from morning to night. They are calm because they know who they are.

• 54:52Jocko Willink?

  In that last two sentences about the truly courageous do not live in anxiety from morning to night. They are calm because they know who they are.

• 55:05Jocko Willink?

  And I definitely, when I hear that statement, I think about the guys that I know that were truly courageous.

• 55:13Jocko Willink?

  And

• 55:15Jocko Willink?

  how they did have that.

• 55:20Jocko Willink?

  Almost peaceful attitude of acceptance because they knew who they were and they knew what they would do if the moment came for them. Another type of more kind of overt courage here from Major Jim Crow. Former enlisted man, marine gunner, distinguished rifleman, star football player, was a tower of strength throughout the battle. His trademark red mustache bristling, a combat shotgun cradled in his arms. He exuded confidence and professionalism, qualities sorely needed on that long day.

• 56:05Jocko Willink?

  Crow ordered the coxswain of his landing craft, "Put this goddamn boat in." The boat hit the reef at high speed, sending the Marines sprawling. Quickly recovering, Crow ordered his men over the sides, then led them through several hundred yards of shallow water, reaching the shore intact only four minutes behind the last wave. Crow, clenching a cigar in his teeth and standing upright, growling at his men. "Look, the sons of bitches can't hit me. Why do you think they can hit you? Get moving, go!" Red Beach Three was in capable hands.

• 56:46Jocko Willink?

  Kind of a larger-than-life, a larger-than-life image of courage. Adaptability. Adaptability has long been our key to overcoming the effects of friction and its components. Although it is synonymous with flexibility, adaptability also embraces the spirit of innovation. Marines constantly seek to adapt new tactics, organization, and procedures to the realities of the environment. deficiencies in existing practices are identified outdated structure discarded and

• 57:27Jocko Willink?

  modifications made to maintain function and utility that's a little something you might want to do in your life deficiencies in existing practices are identified outdated structure discarded and modifications made to maintain function and utility yes go ahead and note to self the ability to adapt enables Marines to be comfortable within an environment dominated by friction and we just talked about innovation innovation has always been a key component of Marine Corps tradition and our style of leadership it is it has come naturally because

• 58:09Jocko Willink?

  our combatant function was and is unique innovation requires that leaders listen to their subordinates I'm gonna say that again innovation requires that leaders listen to their subordinates and that a two-way system of communication is maintained corporals sergeants captains and generals all have responsibility to be innovators that's everybody in your chain of command has a responsibility to be innovational because innovation is imprecise and because subordinates especially junior ones will

• 58:46Jocko Willink?

  make mistakes protect them zero defects are not a standard of measurement they do not encourage initiative they stifle it so your junior folks and some of your junior leadership and maybe some of your senior leadership they're gonna make some mistakes and you've got to protect them and encourage them to continue on to try to be innovative

• 59:14Jocko Willink?

  If we wish to think clearly, if you wish to free your mind, if you wish to think clearly, we must cease imitating. If we wish to cease imitating, we must make use of our imagination. Now, how often is it that you see a marine in his service dress, blue uniform, looking like a statue of perfection? How often is it you think that their manual tells them that they have to make use of their imagination?

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:43Jocko Willink?

  People don't get that image, and I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Combat is an absolute exercise in creativity. That's what it is.

• 59:54Jocko Willink?

  And you've got to use your imagination.

• 59:58Jocko Willink?

  We must train ourselves for the unexpected in place of training others for the cut and dried. Audacity and not caution must be our watchword. Got to take some risks. Got to take some risks.

• 1:00:19Jocko Willink?

  Now, here's a term

• 1:00:22Jocko Willink?

  that I just like. As a matter of fact, I'm going to use the L word. I love this term. The term is fighting power.

• 1:00:32Jocko Willink?

  Fighting power is an organization's ability to conduct combat operations by overcoming challenges to lead, compete, and prevail on the battlefield. Fighting power rests on mental, intellectual, and organizational foundations in its manifestations in one combination or another. Our discipline and cohesion, morale and initiative, courage and toughness, the willingness to fight, and the readiness, if necessary, to die.

• 1:01:10Jocko Willink?

  Fighting power in brief is defined as the sum total of mental and physical qualities that make armies fight.

• 1:01:21Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? I just added something in there because it actually says mental qualities that make armies fight and I'm adding mental and physical qualities because we've talked about the physical qualities and how important it is.

• 1:01:34Jocko Willink?

  Fighting power in brief is defined as the sum total of mental and physical qualities that make army fight, make armies fight. And what I like about this idea of fighting power is what can you do to improve your fighting power today? What can you do? Is what you're doing helpful? Are you moving it forward? Are you increasing your fighting power? Or are you decreasing it? Are you going backwards?

• 1:02:04Jocko Willink?

  That's the real question here.

• 1:02:08Jocko Willink?

  And I think that when you realize that what you do in your life is either doing one of two things, it's either increasing your fighting power or it's decreasing your fighting power. Because if you're staying stagnant, you're, you're basically going backwards.

• 1:02:30Jocko Willink?

  And here's a, a little wrap up.

• 1:02:35Jocko Willink?

  Here's the, uh, leadership principles. Be technically and tactically proficient. Know yourself and seek self-improvement. Boom. Know your Marines and look out for their welfare.

• 1:02:53Jocko Willink?

  Keep your Marines informed.

• 1:02:56Jocko Willink?

  Set the example. Ensure the task is understood, supervised, and accomplished.

• 1:03:05Jocko Willink?

  Train your Marines as a team. Make sound and timely decisions. Develop a sense of responsibility among your subordinates. Little decentralized command. Employ your unit in accordance with its capabilities.

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  Seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions. Once again, ownership and I like to seek responsibility and a little little SEAL saying that we used to have was a look for work. So if there's nothing going on, look for work, man, you know, say, and you see a new guy standing there not knowing what to do. Hey, go look for work. Means go pick up a security position, go help move bodies, go do something, make something happen, seek responsibility.

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  And this last statement

• 1:03:57Jocko Willink?

  is just a note to remind everybody of the troopers on the front lines

• 1:04:05Jocko Willink?

  throughout history.

• 1:04:08Jocko Willink?

  "The time always comes in battle when the decisions of statesmen and of generals can no longer affect the issue and when it's not the power of our national wealth to change the balance decisively.

• 1:04:23Jocko Willink?

  Victory is never achieved prior to that point. It can only be won after the battle has been delivered into the hands of men who move in imminent danger of death."

• 1:04:38Jocko Willink?

  And that's S L A Marshall.

• 1:04:46Jocko Willink?

  The folks on the front lines. So for everyone out there that's listening to this podcast, that's on the front lines right now.

• 1:04:55Jocko Willink?

  I salute you all.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  Let's get to the questions. All right.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Okay, first question from Narco3111. "Will you guys cover injury recovery and the mentality to quick recovery?

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  And advice on how to find physical limit without injury?"

• 1:05:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so for this one.

• 1:05:28Jocko Willink?

  Well, first of all, train hard, but always train smart, you know, don't do things that are going to hurt you. And this is a balance, just like everything else. You have to push yourself hard enough that you get stronger, but at the same time, you can't push yourself so hard that you get injured. So I think that's one of the keys. Another key is making sure you take adequate rest, which of course I'm usually guilty of not doing. That being said, when you see me training every day, I'm not, you know, I'm not going 110% every day. There are some days where

• 1:06:11Jocko Willink?

  I roll into the gym and I say, yeah, okay, this is not, this is not a day to push myself. I'm injury prone today, you know, and so I, I will taper my workout and I'll usually do some other kind of intensity, but let's say I'm not going to lift heavy weights or I'm not going to sprint because I'm feeling tight and I don't want to pull muscles. So you just, you've got to listen to what your body's saying. Another thing that I think is important about it is, you know, we talked about on the last podcast is, you know, changing your goals and constantly chasing after different goals. You know, we're going for a, a deadlift and then you're going for a mile time run and then you're going for a number of pull-ups and you're, you're constantly kind of changing those. And I think that is a good way to avoid injury because you're not just

• 1:06:56Jocko Willink?

  hammering the same thing over and over and over again, which I think leads to injury. Now, that being said, you, you don't ever want to just completely stop, you know, elements of your workout, you know, you want to keep, that's why it's, it's good to not go in these extreme directions. And I'll tell you, one, what I think is the most important thing for me, for being relatively injury free, and I'm about to list all my injuries on the next question, but relatively injury free is that I always work out. I always work out. And I think that

• 1:07:32Jocko Willink?

  When people, I think when people take extended periods of time off, and by that I think I mean,

• 1:07:40Jocko Willink?

  you know, you're starting to get into like two weeks, three weeks, maybe a month of not doing anything. I think when people come back from those is when they get injured, is when they get hurt. Because their bodies just, it's still strong, it still thinks it can do what it did three weeks ago. But it can't, it's not conditioned for it. And that's when, that's when you get hurt. Uh, another good piece, I think for recovery and is, uh, is a mobility wad. The Kelly K star, you know, go to mobility wad.com and just look at that. Look at what he's doing, look at what he's putting out. He's got some great stuff to heal yourself and, and square away your injuries.

• 1:08:24Jocko Willink?

  I think stretching, I think stretching is important, but I think people take it to an excess. And I think when you do too much of it, I think it's, I think it's causes problems. Um, I know, I know some, some guys that have done extreme yoga. And I think extreme yoga is, you know, once you're, once you go beyond what is normal, or a little beyond normal, you start to injure yourself. And I think that's not good. I think it leads to, you know, joint laxity where your, your, your joints can actually move too much. And there's not enough holding them in place and their

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  Stability.

• 1:09:02Jocko Willink?

  Right, right. And so I think just listen to your body.

• 1:09:08Jocko Willink?

  And I think that the next part of this question will answer in the next question.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  We just kind of add to that nutrition as well. Like eating enough. So a lot of people, especially if they're trying to cut up or, or, or drop some weight. And, you know, if you're training for something, you gotta make weight that's, you know, that's going to be a little bit more specific strategy, but.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  A lot of times people will starve themselves.

• 1:09:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm always telling people like when they're feeling negative or they're feeling like they're injury prone. I'm always telling people they're probably lacking fats. They're probably lacking good fats, you know?

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:41Jocko Willink?

  So I agree with you, diet is extremely important.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and what like when you, when you work on this, what I learned early on in un- understanding the importance of this, I think really, really helped is if you eat right after you work out, don't, don't think that you're gonna eat a meal and that's gonna fuel your workout. Cause it's like, it takes a while for the, the calories to go into your system to fuel a workout. It's not gonna do it in like an hour. So eat, so go work out, then eat after. So that those calories and, and those nutrients will help your body recover. And within that hour, that's when your body wants to recover and wants those nutrients, you know? So doing that, if you starve yourself, or don't eat, or eat very little, your, your muscles aren't gonna be recovered, your tendons are gonna be a little bit more weak.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Even when you do recover, it didn't take in those nutrients.

• 1:10:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  So you will be way more prone.

• 1:10:35Jocko Willink?

  I probably, I probably need to do a better job of that as you, well, people always ask me and I, I get done working out, you know, at like five or six, well, maybe six o'clock in the morning, I'm done working out and I usually don't, I usually don't eat until nine or 10, you know, so I probably need to do a better job of that. I'll have to take Echo Charles's advice on that one.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Yep, that's um, that's funny.

• 1:10:56Jocko Willink?

  But I have an open mind, so it's cool. I can do that.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, good. In the body buil- bodybuilding world, that's like a no brainer. It's called the anabolic window. And it's like, you, you, you can see little jokes on it where it's like,

• 1:11:08Jocko Willink?

  Gotta jump through that.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  Like, oh, he missed his anabolic window and it shows a picture of like a guy holding a guy dying or something, you know? It's like, it's a real important thing and it helps so much.

• 1:11:18Jocko Willink?

  We'll give it a shot.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  Right on. Next question.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  From.

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  What honeybees do?

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  Oh, when it's all one word, it's just kinda, it's strange. Okay, what honeybees do?

• 1:11:36Jocko Willink?

  You're not on the decoding.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  It could be like, what though, me, bees do.

• 1:11:43Jocko Willink?

  No, it can't be that. It's what honeybees do.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  You never know.

• 1:11:46Jocko Willink?

  Add what honeybees do.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  What the honeybees do? What injuries?

• 1:11:51Jocko Willink?

  Just what honeybees do. Not the honeybees.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Alright, there you go.

• 1:11:57Jocko Willink?

  You get a third chance.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  What injuries have you gotten? And how did you adapt?

• 1:12:03Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so, obviously, active lifestyle, you know?

• 1:12:08Jocko Willink?

  Growing up and spending my life in the SEAL teams.

• 1:12:14Jocko Willink?

  Ton of injuries from everything. I've had MCL tear of sprained ankles, shoulders, wrists, lower back, elbows. But the most serious actual injury that I had, um, was, I had neck, I had neck surgery. So I had a foramenotomy in my neck, which is they go in and they scrape some bone away from the foramen. Which hurt bad when they did it and, but it's been really good.

• 1:12:44Jocko Willink?

  I was really, I mean, I, I had like lost movement in my arm for a little while, my right arm.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  From your neck?

• 1:12:52Jocko Willink?

  From my neck injury.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  How'd you do that?

• 1:12:54Jocko Willink?

  Just grinding over time and, and, you know, I remember, there's one part of SEAL training where you're carrying these boats on your head.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:13:03Jocko Willink?

  Which is not that big of a deal, but then the instructors would jump from boat to boat. So you get these 200 pound instructors and, and they're just jumping. Their boats on your head and they're jumping from boat to boat. And it's, I remember an instructor jumping into the boat and landing pretty much where I was. And I remember hearing a grinding noise in my neck and I, you know, of course I was 19 years old, so I didn't care, bring it on. But, uh, they don't, they don't do that anymore. They actually don't jump from boat to boat anymore, which is, which is cool. They shouldn't. It's not good for you. So, but, but anyways, with all these injuries, whether it's MCL tear, whether it's, you know, high ankle sprains and,

• 1:13:43Jocko Willink?

  and all kinds of ligament damages in my, in my ankles and my lower back, which I've injured a few times, mo- almost all muscular there. Uh, what I do is I do the same thing with all of them and that is I do whatever I can.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:13:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, if I, if I, when I hurt my knee and I couldn't squat, I could do like a quarter squat. I did a quarter squats, you know, I'd go out the garage and I'd stand there with no body weight and just do quarter squats and get the blood moving. And you know, then I'd try and do my other body parts and you know, could do pull ups still. And so I did dead hang pulls because I couldn't even move my knee to like Kip at all. So I did what I could there, you know, so you can't do ring dips. Do regular dips. If you can't do dips, do pushups. If you can't do pushups, push off of a wall, whatever it takes to get something done. You can't lift that forty kilogram kettlebell, lift the twenty four kilogram kettlebell. Just do something, move, get the blood in there.

• 1:14:40Jocko Willink?

  And not only is it get the blood in there, because I always think that the more you're moving and the more you're using that range of motion, the, the faster you're going to heal. You know, you're just circulating more repairing nutrients to your body. So it would make sense to me that that's going to help you heal. Now, of course, you can re-damage, you can go worse, you know, if, if it hurts to do a, a quarter squat. And so you do half squat, you're, you're going backwards.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, so you want to stay within the range of motion where you're not re-injuring it or making it worse. So don't be stupid. But do get the movement going. And also, I don't know what I would do mentally if I like couldn't do anything at all. Now, when I hurt my neck, though, I was, I was laid up. I didn't think I was going to be, I was just going to power through it and then a tough guy. Yeah. No, I was laid up with my head and it just hurting. And, but I'll tell you, as soon as I could get up and start trying to walk around, I did it. And like I said, try to, try to stay sane. And then the other thing that happens is when you have these injuries, you know, you're, you got to adapt your goals, you know, and you got, just got to set new goals. Okay.

• 1:15:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, and, and really, I've never really fully regained the strength in my right arm and my right pack. It's not as strong as it was and it's definitely way weaker than my other side. You know, it's probably at. Seventy or eighty percent. And, you know, I just have to say, okay, well, what can I do? It's like, okay, you're gonna be nor- you're a normal human now. So, so here's what, here's, here's, here's what your new goals are. And I'm, you know, I'm still trying to improve and get better. At whatever it is, but you know, injuries are gonna happen in life. And you gotta just do your best you can to work through them as smartly as you possibly can.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  And kind of to add to the, the, the train smart. It, this may seem obvious, but when you do like higher rep, like heavier weight or not higher rep, sorry, heavier weight. Lower reps or real explosive stuff, you're gonna be more prone to injury. So even being just more conscious of your movement. And, and really avoiding those types of movements when you feel an injury start to come on, like if you get a little lower back thing or, or a shoulder thing.

• 1:16:51Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Just be conscious of your movement.

• 1:16:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Way more.

• 1:16:56Jocko Willink?

  Today I was deadlifting and I, I was like, mm, no, okay, we're done deadlifting for the day.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Jocko Willink?

  And, and you know, I, I definitely spared myself being laid up. You know, and I just got out the roller and just grounded out for a while, got out the ball, grounded out for a while, but for sure. You gotta listen, you gotta pay attention and if you feel that little twinge, it's no big deal, you know, there's plenty of other ways to get your, to get your workout on. Besides Jack and the Big Steel, so.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you, um, like how you were saying, you body weight squats, you'll just do, you know, like if you're, if you had a, a sick squat workout planned. And you feel your lower back or your IT band is a big one where when you, when you get after it in squats, that'll, um, a lot of times act up.

• 1:17:40Jocko Willink?

  Well, I sprained my ankle sick enough, probably four or five months ago and it, I couldn't do, it was weird. It's one of those weird things. I couldn't do overhead squats. But I could do overhead squats.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Like after a snatch?

• 1:17:52Jocko Willink?

  Yes, I couldn't do overhead squats because it hurt my ankle for whatever reason.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:56Jocko Willink?

  But I could do front squats and regular squats.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 1:17:58Jocko Willink?

  And I couldn't go to full depth, the ones I could still go to full depth on, again, I don't know why I'm not a physician. Front squats felt the best. So I started doing more and more front squats at the time and and then eventually, you know, and now I'm back to doing everything. So figure out what you can get away with, figure out what you can do and do it.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  Also went in regards to being conscious of like your movement, a lot of times I know this is this is the case for me where I'll get little injuries from just like racking or unracking weights. Just because it's like, oh, you're not.

• 1:18:29Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you need to do more functional training, my friend.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  I don't always get injured, but I'm saying you can get little things, you know? Because that a lot of times that is like, it's unconscious, I'm just put this over here, you know, and you're not, meanwhile, if you do a clean and jerk, you're like, okay, I'm gonna focus on this good technique and all this. So again, that goes along with being careful of your mo- movement, being being conscious of it. Yeah, especially when you feel, when you hit that fatigue, when you know, you've been working out for three weeks straight, hard, very little rest, you're on it, you know? And you start to feel these little things come about. I think it's important to to to be conscious of those things.

• 1:19:09Jocko Willink?

  And also to what you were saying earlier. If my head's not in the game, I'm not jacking the big weights.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:15Jocko Willink?

  Because you gotta be thinking about it. You gotta be thinking about your body position, you know, before you do, before before you just try and grab on this big weight and throw it around.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:23Jocko Willink?

  You gotta get your head in the game.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  All right, next question. Uh, this was actually my question.

• 1:19:33Jocko Willink?

  A question from Echo, combined with a question from someone else, yeah.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, that's true. Okay, so public speaking, right? How did you, like, I've seen some of your speeches, how did you get good at it? Because that's a, that's a daunting nerve wracking thing. In fact, like some people. They prefer death over public speaking, literally.

• 1:19:55Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's heavy.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  So what's your, um, what's your mindset, you know, for keep you from, from being nervous?

• 1:20:03Jocko Willink?

  And then that, that's coupled with another question here.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:06Jocko Willink?

  Which we got from the interwebs.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  Conquering fear in general.

• 1:20:09Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Right. Fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of the unknown.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  What would your advice be to someone who wants to like start a business or a major project? Um, but they're, but they're held back by fear.

• 1:20:22Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:20:25Jocko Willink?

  This is.

• 1:20:27Jocko Willink?

  Again, it's interesting for me because public speaking is not something that induces fear in me. It never has. Uh, but I know that it does make people scared. And I think that overcoming. The key to any overcoming any fear in my mind is, we talked about this a little earlier, which is inoculation. And this idea, and I actually looked up the definition of inoculation and it's. The introdu- the introduction of a pathogen or antigen into a living organism to stimulate the production of antibi- antibodies. So you're giving yourself a little bit.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:21:04Jocko Willink?

  And you give yourself a little bit and you build up off there. And, and that's what you do. You take the small doses. So it prepares you for the bigger, bigger doses. And I, uh, one of my daughters, my middle daughter. She was really wanting to be in. The school play, right? And other plays around town. And, oh, you know, okay, cool. Well, that's cool. But she was horrified to go out in front of an audience, horrified. And so I looked up and I said, okay, how do you stop your kids from being, getting stage fright is what they call it. And you know, I read about people, what they did and what I did was I said. I'd say, okay, uh, sing a song for me.

• 1:21:47Jocko Willink?

  And it's not that big of a deal because I'm her dad. And so she'd sing a song for me. And even then she'd be a little bit embarrassed, but she'd sing a song for me. And then, then you know. Couple of days later, my wife, hey, sing that song for both of us. And then it was, oh, my wife's got a friend over. Hey, sing that song for the three of us. Cause now you get a mystery person, an unknown in the room. Okay. So she's overcoming that fear. And each time she's getting a little bit more and more confident because we took her to, uh. What are they called tryouts? What's the tryout called?

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Audition.

• 1:22:17Jocko Willink?

  Audition. We took her to a couple of auditions where it was her turn and she didn't go. She broke down just crying and just, just, just couldn't handle it. And so then it was, then it was a few of my wife's friends were over. Then it was some of my friends were over. So now you got, you know, guys and girls and each time she got more and more confident. And eventually she just didn't care anymore and she was totally confident and she got the lead role in the school play. She legitimately got the lead role in the school play. So, so she was able to overcome that fear. And in the SEAL teams, we do the same kind of thing. We know where you're going to get inoculated against stress.

• 1:22:56Jocko Willink?

  As much as they can stress you out in the SEAL teams, they're going to stress you out. There's going to be machine gun fire. You're going to be used to that. There's going to be explosions going off. You're going to be used to that. We used to do, we used to do live fire, machine gun drills and, and, and uh, IAD drills, immediate action drills where you're maneuvering around. We used to do that without ear, ear protection and sometimes. So you get used to this crazy banging. We don't do that anymore because it's not smart. But uh, but you do that to inoculate. It's like what you were talking about earlier. When that gun goes off, you should be completely comfortable with it. And there's a, one of my favorite stories, well, not one of my favorite stories, but one of, one of a buddy of mine, who actually took my job. I was a task unit commander and he actually took my job as task unit commander.

• 1:23:37Jocko Willink?

  And a flashbang is a grenade that you throw into a room before you go into the room and it makes a loud explosion and smoke. And then it allows you to enter in on the room when the people that are inside are now startled. So you have an advantage. Well, occasionally, you know, you have to open the door to throw the, the crash in there and occasionally someone will open the door and someone will run in. By, they didn't coordinate it well. And so you open the door, guy runs in and then someone throws the crash in. So now you're crashing yourself. It's not that big of a deal. You gotta get used to it. But what happened with one of his new guys, you know, that happened. So the door went open. The guy went in and while the guy was running in, somebody throws a crash in there. The guy sees the crash and he runs back out of the room.

• 1:24:21Jocko Willink?

  Which is not what you're supposed to do. So this guy was the task unit commander. He goes, hey, uh, come with me down here. And so they walked down and he brought him into a closet in the kill house. And just sat in there and said, yeah, how's it going? And they just. Sat there in the dark and dropped like eight crashes at their feet and just blasted a guy because you realize you just gotta get inoculated. You know, you just gotta overcome it. So that's kind of. I guess my. My theory here would be if you're. Afraid of. Fighting and altercations, go change jiu jitsu. If you're afraid of heights. Work on some rock claiming climbing. If you're afraid of the water.

• 1:25:01Jocko Willink?

  Time to swim. It's time to surf. It's time to get out there. If you're afraid of pull ups. If if you're afraid of pull ups, do pull ups. If you're in squats, do squats. If you're afraid of public speaking. Go speak in public. If you're afraid to start a business. Start a business. Make it small. And on all these, what you have to do is you have to mitigate the risk and you have to ease yourself into it. But you gotta go for it. And eventually you will. Overcome that fear.

• 1:25:32Jocko Willink?

  But the hard part is. You gotta take that first step. You gotta take that first step to begin to inoculate yourself against the fear, against the fear of the thing. That's in your mind because that fear generally is in your mind. You know, when you get up on stage to do a public speaking. People are not going to throw tomatoes at you and say, oh my, you're an idiot. Get off the stage. No, they're they're gonna sit there, you know? So there's nothing to fear. It's in it's in your head.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  Hey, those flash grenades. They don't cause any damage to people. They're just.

• 1:26:08Jocko Willink?

  I mean, you don't like want them next to your eye. They're. They're loud and they make a big boom and they're explosive. But yeah, they don't. They don't hurt you. Generally, they daze you. They they they're not even dazed. They stun you.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, what if I had one in like my pocket?

• 1:26:25Jocko Willink?

  And it went off? You'd get a little. You'd get a little something.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Not injured. I'd get hurt, not injured.

• 1:26:30Jocko Willink?

  You'd get. Yeah, you'd get hurt, not injured.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could go lift or some.

• 1:26:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you'd be sore. Yeah, I never let one off in my pocket.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I always wonder about those because they're. All right, next question. Okay, in podcast number seven, you answered a question which was essentially about how a subordinate might cope with a leader who wasn't competent.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  So this, this person is interested in your thoughts on the opposite side of the coin. For example, if you're that guy, quote unquote, and you know it, how can you still lead a team effectively, given the lack of competence? Given the lack of competence can undermine the team's trust and confidence in you?

• 1:27:17Jocko Willink?

  So, so this question is, you are that guy.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:20Jocko Willink?

  You're the guy that doesn't have the knowledge. You're the guy that's inexperienced. You're the guy that just got hired.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  That's good that you know it. That's good, right?

• 1:27:28Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  That he said you know you're that guy.

• 1:27:30Jocko Willink?

  By recognizing. That is step number one. He's recognized that he's the guy, that he's inexperienced, doesn't have the knowledge, etc. So, this, this question, while it might seem like a tough question, it's actually easier than you might think because competence and knowledge definitely are very beneficial for leadership. The, the knowledge piece and, and knowing the technical side of what you're trying to lead a team in. But it is definitely not mandatory. Now, if you don't have it, of course, you should strive to get it because it will make you a better leader. But in certain situations, there's times where you have to lead and you have to lead now. That does happen.

• 1:28:13Jocko Willink?

  So what do you do and how do you lead when you're in that situation? And it's actually pretty easy. You lead almost the exact same way that you would in any other situation. Humbly and with an open mind. So leadership is the same regardless of what you know. Think about it. Leadership is the same regardless of what you know. What you're gonna do is you're gonna gather ideas, because you don't really have any, you know, so you're gonna gather them from the other people, right? You're gonna explore the different methods, right? Because you don't know any of the other methods. So you're just gonna explore and say, how would you do it? How would you do it? You're gonna weigh the different courses of action. Because

• 1:28:56Jocko Willink?

  you're not sure which one is gonna be the best. It's not gonna be super evident which course of action is gonna be the best. You're gonna listen. Listen to what people are saying.

• 1:29:05Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna keep an open mind and hear what they're saying.

• 1:29:10Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna show that you're a quick learner and you're gonna listen and and learn. And how do you show that you're a quick learner? You show that you're a quick learner by being a quick learner. And how do you be a quick learner? By studying.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:22Jocko Willink?

  So when it comes, when there's stuff that you should know, then you study it and you learn it and you prove. And then you take all this information that you've got and you weigh

• 1:29:34Jocko Willink?

  the decision and then you make one.

• 1:29:37Jocko Willink?

  And again, that's how you should be leading anyways, right? So so let me ask you this, just because you know the most, right? If you are the most knowledgeable on the team, does that mean you're gonna plan everything yourself?

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Hmm, no.

• 1:29:48Jocko Willink?

  No, it doesn't. Does that mean you're gonna make your decisions in a vacuum by yourself? Just, no, if you're a good leader, you're not gonna do that at all. Does it mean you're gonna make decisions and move forward without consulting with people? No, it doesn't. So all this means is that you're gonna do all those things. You are gonna get consensus from the group, you're gonna get people on board, you're gonna talk to them and see what their their ideas are. And again, I shouldn't have used the word consensus because you can't always lead by consensus. That can be, that can become difficult, but you're gonna listen, you're gonna learn, you're gonna talk to people about what you're doing. And that's how you're gonna lead again, it's almost the exact same. The only thing that gets added if you are sort of a technical expertise, you can be a little bit more of a sanity check

• 1:30:34Jocko Willink?

  on, you know, let's say a plan that people are coming up with. If if if we were doing a computer, you know, software engineering problem, I I would not be able to add my technical expertise. But if, you know, for the the engineers came to me and presented what their ideas were, I'd be able to look at them logically and say, okay, explain to me and ask enough questions until I said, okay, guys, here's what I'm thinking, I think we should go with, you know, method B or whatever. And the other people can kind of counter and then eventually we can make that decision happen. So if I had the knowledge myself, then I could make that decision a little bit easier and I could add a little bit of a sanity check, but it's not life and death.

• 1:31:16Jocko Willink?

  And the other thing that's interesting is when you do have the knowledge yourself, you can, you can actually come off as a know-it-all, which is not a good leader. So, in both cases, whether you are the technical expert or whether you're not, the leadership principles stay the same. Be humble, be open-minded, listen, learn, and lead.

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  Last question. What is your greatest weakness? And what are you doing to work through or around it?

• 1:31:55Jocko Willink?

  What is my greatest weakness, my biggest weakness?

• 1:32:02Jocko Willink?

  And that's actually a hard question. Because when I think about it, frankly, I am nothing but weakness. I'm not naturally strong, I'm not naturally fast, I'm not naturally flexible. I'm certainly not the smartest guy in the world.

• 1:32:23Jocko Willink?

  And, and I get emotional over stupid things and I eat the wrong foods and I don't sleep enough. And I procrastinate and I waste time and I care too much about stupid things and not enough about important things.

• 1:32:40Jocko Willink?

  And of course, my ego is too big.

• 1:32:45Jocko Willink?

  But at the same time, my mind is too small and it's trapped inside itself.

• 1:32:54Jocko Willink?

  But now that being said, I, I have a saying and it's, and you've probably heard me say it before. A person's strengths are often their biggest weaknesses. And so that also means that their weaknesses can be their strengths.

• 1:33:14Jocko Willink?

  So, me?

• 1:33:18Jocko Willink?

  I am weak. In all those ways that I listed, I am weak.

• 1:33:27Jocko Willink?

  But I don't accept that. I don't accept that I am what I am and that THAT is what I'm doomed to be. No, I don't accept that. I'm fighting. I'm always fighting, I'm struggling and I'm scrapping and I'm kicking and clawing at those weaknesses to change them, to stop them.

• 1:33:56Jocko Willink?

  Some days I win.

• 1:34:00Jocko Willink?

  Some days I don't. But each and every day, I get back up and I move forward with my fist clenched toward the battle, toward the struggle. And I fight with everything I've got to overcome those weaknesses and those shortfalls and those flaws. As I strive to be just a little bit better today than I was yesterday.

• 1:34:39Jocko Willink?

  And I think that, that about wraps it up for tonight. And like we always say, if you want to continue this conversation or you want to engage in one, or you want to hang with us virtually, you can find us on Twitter, I'm at @JacoWillink and Echo is at @EchoCharles. Thanks for listening, thanks for subscribing, thanks for leaving reviews, thanks for spreading the word, thanks for being better. And most of all, thanks to all of you

• 1:35:23Jocko Willink?

  for getting after it. This is Jocko and Echo, and until next time. Out.