363. Think Like a Winner

Great athletes aren’t just great at the physical stuff. They’ve also learned how to handle pressure, overcome fear, and stay focused. Here’s the good news: you don’t have to be an athlete to use what they know. (Ep. 4 of “The Hidden Side of Sports” series.)

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:48Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:21Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:11Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:49Speaker 01

  You cannot be afraid to fail. I have an eight-year-old son. There's no way I'd let him play tackle football.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  I had never been in an environment that was so emotionally charged. The fight started, and I hit her as hard as I could.

• 3:00Speaker 03

  I would say that sports was my way of becoming American.

• 3:06Speaker 04

  I want to leave this sport being known as a bad motherfucker.

• 3:17Speaker 05

  I would say most things that we think are true do turn out to be true, not always for the reasons we think.

• 3:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Toby Moskowitz is an economist who teaches at the Yale School of Management.

• 3:28Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 3:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yes, so you have won a really prestigious academic award as one of the top finance scholars in the world. Why do you mess around with sports?

• 3:39Speaker 05

  It's called tenure. They can't, they can't fire me. No, it's, one of the things I tell my students all the time is, don't go into this business unless you really love what you research. So, sports has always intrigued me. And, and to be a little bit more serious, a lot of what I study is behavioral economics and how people make decisions when faced with a lot of uncertainty. Sports is just a really rich field to look at those kinds of things.

• 4:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  This is a true fact. It's why you see a lot of economists messing around in sports. It's why you see a lot of sports-themed academic journals and conferences. Sports may not be nearly as important as education, or healthcare, or politics, but when you do research in those areas, it can be really hard to establish cause and effect. There are so many inputs of so many different types, and such hard-to-measure outputs. Furthermore, the incentives in education and healthcare and politics are often opaque, or worse, twisted.

• 4:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  In sports, the incentives are usually transparent, the results are clean. And if you like data, as economists do, well, sports provides boatloads of data, most of which happens to be neatly categorized and extend back for decades. Toby Moskowitz, along with John Wertheim, wrote a book taking advantage of these data. It's called Scorecasting. In it, they challenge some of the most fundamental beliefs in sports. For instance, does defense really win championships, as NFL pundits like to say, especially around this time of year? Short answer: no. What's the biggest reason for home field advantage? Short answer: involuntary referee bias.

• 5:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what's the real story behind one of the most compelling elements of sports? The hot streak.

• 5:28Speaker 05

  There's a huge academic literature on this. So as an example, a player in the NBA who's hit a couple of shots in a row, his teammates will start feeding him the ball more, his coach will give him the ball more, and he'll start taking worse shots as a result. There's this belief that they're hot.

• 5:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is this belief supported by the data? Is the player actually hot?

• 5:50Speaker 05

  If you look at the actual evidence, you find either zero or something very close to zero in terms of predictability. It's just a bad strategy.

• 5:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Other scholars, we should note, challenge this conclusion. They argue that there is some evidence for the hot hand theory. Where does Moskowitz land?

• 6:07Speaker 05

  I'll sum it up in the following way, which is, our beliefs in streaks are much stronger than the data actually supports.

• 6:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  But don't we know that confidence is a big contributor to, you know, good performance in any realm? And wouldn't past success in sport contribute to greater confidence, which would then contribute to greater future success?

• 6:31Speaker 05

  That's the theory, but the evidence is that it just doesn't show up. And you could say, well, it's hard to measure, right? Because, take my example of the NBA shooter. If they're taking worse shots or the defense tightens on them, it's not the same experiment. I agree. However, there have been experiments run where it's a perfectly controlled experiment. And what was really interesting is, you were right, Stephen, that players who hit a couple of shots in a row did indeed remark that they felt more confident, that their mechanics felt good that day. They felt good, but the predictive value was absolutely zero.

• 7:09Speaker 06

  I am familiar with that study. I also did a version of sort of this hot hand study on my own.

• 7:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is not another economist. That's the Philadelphia 76ers, J.J. Reddick, who's played in the NBA since 2006. Reddick ranks number six among active players in career three-point shooting percentage. The study he did was for a statistics class at Duke, where he played his college ball, and where Reddick is still their all-time leading scorer.

• 7:38Speaker 06

  I went in the gym and I did like four or five workouts where I would shoot like a hundred, it was either 200 shots or 100 shots. And, you know, I would, I would sort of get to the point where I was in a rhythm, where I felt like a rhythm, and I would sort of note, like, okay, you know, I'm, I have a hot hand. And I would record after each time I felt like I had a hot hand, like, the result of the next shot. And came to the exact same conclusion, that it is a fallacy.

• 8:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Of course, measuring the hot hand idea in practice, or even an experiment, is different from what happens during a game with people watching, millions of people, if you're an NBA player.

• 8:21Speaker 06

  My mindset, and I think most players' mindsets, if you make two in a row, three in a row, your natural sort of inclination is to get what we call a heat check in. And a heat check is, it's not necessarily a wild shot, but it's a shot that has a low probability of going in. So you've made two threes in a row, you know, now the crowd's on their feet, the ball comes to you, it's a fast break, you dribble up, two guys are guarding you, sometimes I shoot one on four, and, you know, and you shoot like an off-balance three.

• 9:02Speaker 06

  And it's like, one of those things that in, in basketball culture, it's understood, like, well, no, he just, he's, he's hot, he's, he's made two or three in a row, he's allowed to sort of take a heat check.

• 9:14Speaker 07

  It's on! He's as hot as a blowtorch! It's a heat check, you knew that was coming. It's heat check time.

• 9:21Speaker 06

  There's gotta be an element of like, true belief in yourself, that every shot you take is gonna go in, whether that's rational or irrational, you just have to believe that. You cannot play a professional sport and be hesitant.

• 9:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  You cannot play a professional sport and be hesitant. You just have to believe, whether it's rational or not. Today on Freakonomics Radio, the latest installment in a series that we're calling "The Hidden Side of Sports." In the first episode, we looked at how sports have, throughout history, mirrored society, which may explain why we care so much about an industry that dollar-wise is actually quite small.

• 10:05Speaker 08

  Spectator sports in the United States is roughly the same size as the cardboard box industry.

• 10:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  In episode two, we looked at the economics of a single NFL franchise, the San Francisco 49ers, who've been trying to recover from a debilitating losing streak.

• 10:20Speaker 09

  When you lose a game, a lot of noise happens. When you lose two, a ton happens. Usually, three is like Armageddon. Try nine.

• 10:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  The third episode was called "Here's Why You Are Not an Elite Athlete." We looked at all the things that have to go right for an aspiring athlete, from talent to coaching to luck.

• 10:40Speaker 10

  I mean, you can't get hurt. You have to be healthy. You can't have the flu on the wrong day. You have to find the right coach in the right city.

• 10:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  In today's episode, "The Mental Side of Sports." How do athletes prepare for high-stakes situations? How do they recover when things go wrong? How do they develop a winning strategy when they know their opponent is thinking the same thing?

• 11:02Speaker 11

  Everybody in the NFL is within a really tight range physically. And what separates great players from average players is all in the mental piece.

• 11:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  We'll hear from a mental skills coach.

• 11:14Speaker 12

  There's a lot of pitchers who pitch no hitters in the bullpen and can't take it with them across the lines.

• 11:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  We'll hear from athletes.

• 11:21Speaker 04

  I was a poop show in my head. I was so afraid.

• 11:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  And, of course, we'll hear from some of our favorite economists.

• 11:27Speaker 13

  So it looks like roughly about a $5 million a year mistake.

• 11:43Speaker 14

  From Stitcher and Dubner Productions, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 12:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's natural enough to see elite athletes as finely tuned machines, like a BMW or a fighter jet. For starters, they're usually bigger, faster, and stronger than the rest of us. Some of them, like Olympic gymnasts, are competing on a global stage in an age when most people are still struggling with acne. Also, even in sports that require over-the-top physical power, think of a clean and jerk in weightlifting, or a brutal scrum in rugby, there's a graceful element that, to the casual observer, can look nearly effortless.

• 12:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  All these factors conspire to persuade us that an athletic endeavor is an almost purely physical endeavor. It's easy to neglect what may be happening in the athlete's mind. But if you talk to enough athletes, and coaches, and others, you discover that's where a massive share of their energy is going.

• 13:00Speaker 12

  Yeah, well, I think developing a mental game plan is important for consistent success or consistent performance.

• 13:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Bob Tewksbury.

• 13:09Speaker 12

  I am the mental skills coach for the San Francisco Giants.

• 13:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  And just give me, in a nutshell, your major league career as a pitcher yourself?

• 13:19Speaker 12

  I pitched in the major leagues from 1986 to 1998 with six different teams. Won 110 major league games, lost 102, had two arm surgeries, seven demotions, made an All-Star team, and kind of experienced just about everything.

• 13:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tewksbury recently wrote a book called 90% Mental. He did not have such a long major league career because he threw the ball so hard. His success was rooted in control and accuracy. Tewksbury had one of the lowest ratios of walks per nine innings in baseball history.

• 13:56Speaker 12

  Correct, yeah, correct. People know the strikeout people, but they don't know the guys that don't walk people.

• 14:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  When he retired, Tewksbury got a master's degree from Boston University in sports psychology and counseling. He got his first coaching job with the Boston Red Sox. That year, they won the World Series for the first time since 1918.

• 14:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  During Tewksbury's playing career, there was no such thing as a mental skills coach. Today, the vast majority of baseball teams have them. Here is one of Tewksbury's foundational beliefs, which he tries to teach to every player.

• 14:36Speaker 12

  Confidence is a choice. I think a lot of people think it's a feeling, but if you wait for that feeling, it may never come.

• 14:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Confidence is a choice. That seems intuitive enough, maybe even obvious, but it's remarkable how easily even an elite athlete can get derailed.

• 14:53Speaker 12

  I remember a day in San Francisco, where I was pitching for the Cardinals, and the hecklers were, you know, I didn't know my mother had army boots under my bed. You know, they would say all these things, and it really distracted me. And my first thought was, well, I could always go back to school and become a physical education coach.

• 15:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  There's also the voice inside your head.

• 15:15Speaker 10

  Yes.

• 15:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Shawn Johnson is a four-time Olympic medalist in gymnastics.

• 15:20Speaker 10

  Gymnastics is terrifying.

• 15:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Johnson's 26 now. She's been retired for years.

• 15:25Speaker 10

  I am terrified of gymnastics. Like, I would never get up on a balance beam right now and try to flip. I would hurt myself. I feel like anybody in the world can be trained physically for an Olympic event. You can train your body to do it. Now, training your mind is the hardest part, because learning to overcome fear, learning to push aside thoughts that are negative, and still take that risk of injury, or a failure, or of falling on your face in front of the entire world, is really difficult to do.

• 15:58Speaker 04

  I was so afraid of losing.

• 16:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Carrie Walsh Jennings, one of the best beach volleyball players in history. She has three Olympic gold medals. But it's a bronze medal, a third-place finish, that haunts her from the 2016 Olympics in Rio.

• 16:12Speaker 04

  You know, I'm really working on letting go of it. To be very honest with you, getting bronze in Rio threw me for a loop. And it's not necessarily losing. Well, I've lost plenty in my life, and I've had bad matches plenty. But I just, I believe in the fairy tale. Even when I'm having the worst game, I know there's going to be a point where things are going to shift, because I'm never going to give up, and I have that mindset. It's coming, it's coming, I got it. And I had a terrible match in the semifinals. And I just kept talking to myself, it's coming, it's coming, and it never came.

• 16:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Because it never came, and because Walsh Jennings went home with bronze instead of gold, she's preparing for another Olympics.

• 16:51Speaker 04

  I'm going through my sixth Olympics and I'm turning 40. And I'm, you know, playing against these young kids. And it's so nutty, but I'm still going through the same process of leveling up, aspiring to go higher, looking in the mirror, do you got it? Do you want it? Yes, carry on.

• 17:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  But since Rio, the insecurities are still there.

• 17:10Speaker 04

  Oh, it's exhausting.

• 17:13Speaker 04

  It's really exhausting. And ever since then, like, I'm just letting go of living in fear of that happening again. It's been messy and sad and like nonsensical because one match should not define anyone. One bad performance in the life of your doctor, you know, a wife, a whatever, an athlete, it should not define you. And it allowed it to define me. And I'm still working my way through it, you know, and I'm almost there.

• 17:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  That feeling Walsh Jennings experienced in Rio of desperately waiting for the real you to show up, the you who's practiced for thousands of hours and excelled at every level, that feeling is not rare. Consider the recently retired baseball player Mark Teixeira.

• 18:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Were you ever totally lost at the plate?

• 18:03Speaker 15

  Absolutely. I mean, I had stretches, whether it was a week or even a month, where I said, this might be my last week in baseball. I am so bad right now. There is no way I'm getting another hit in Major League Baseball. I look awful. I feel awful. I can't get a hit.

• 18:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's worth mentioning that Teixeira was not a borderline Major League player. He won all sorts of offensive and defensive awards. He won a World Series with the Yankees and he hit 409 career home runs, number 54 on the all time list. But the line between success and failure was always right in front of him.

• 18:39Speaker 15

  Hitting a baseball is still the hardest thing to do in sports. And, you know, you have guys on the mound that are trying to get you out. And if you're off a little bit mechanically, mentally, confidence wise, and he's on, you can have some bad nights.

• 18:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  We were surprised at how often the word fear came up in our interviews with athletes. It's another dimension on which we think athletes are so different from us, that they're somehow fearless. Plainly, they're not, but they do try to fake it.

• 19:10Speaker 16

  Having a fearless mentality. You know, I coached that way. I tried to play that way, obviously. You can't live with fear.

• 19:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Doug Peterson is head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles.

• 19:21Speaker 16

  It just can paralyze you, and you're not going to have success in life.

• 19:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Peterson spends a lot of time helping players mute that fear, or better, crush it. The Eagles last year made the Super Bowl and faced the New England Patriots. The Patriots, led by coach Bill Belichick and quarterback Tom Brady, had made it to eight Super Bowls since 2001, and they'd won five. So, a fairly intimidating team, but in the days leading up to the game, Peterson made sure his team did not think about that.

• 19:52Speaker 16

  We didn't focus ourselves on the Patriots and worry about all the mystique, because again, it's like fear. It's going to paralyze you. If that's what you're worried about, you're not going to be able to play.

• 20:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Eagles, who had won zero Super Bowls, were underdogs. Just before kickoff, Peterson had a quick greeting with the opposing coach.

• 20:11Speaker 16

  You know, I had just briefly met Coach Belichick in the past, and you know, this was really our first time to spend a minute together, and basically just congratulated each other on our seasons and wishing each other the best for this game.

• 20:27Speaker 17

  Coach, congratulations. You too. Thank you so much.

• 20:30Speaker 18

  Tell of the year.

• 20:31Speaker 17

  Yeah, thank you very much. You too. You too.

• 20:32Speaker 16

  You know, but at the same time, internally, I was just thinking, you know, he just had no idea, you know, what's coming. Not saying they overlooked us, but I think that feeling can creep in. I was so confident in our guys and our coaches that I just felt like that he had no idea.

• 20:52Speaker 17

  All right, everybody's up. Everybody up. Everybody up. Everybody up. Let's go, baby. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go.

• 21:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  Peterson's fearlessness was made manifest toward the end of the first half. The Eagles had a small lead and a fourth and goal from about one and a half yards out. The safe play, probably the smart play, was to kick a field goal. Peterson decided to go for the touchdown.

• 21:15Speaker 19

  This is an unbelievable call. This could decide the game.

• 21:21Speaker 20

  People say you gotta be daring to beat the Patriots on this stage. And Doug Peterson certainly showing a lot of confidence in his offense.

• 21:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  On the sideline, quarterback Nick Foles approaches Peterson to suggest a play. You want Philly food? You can hear Peterson think about it for a second and then approve.

• 21:39Speaker 19

  Yeah, let's do it, let's do it.

• 21:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Philly Philly, or what would come to be known as Philly Special, was a trick play, the kind of thing you draw up in your backyard on Thanksgiving. But it turned out all right.

• 21:50Speaker 20

  Foles, touchdown.

• 21:57Speaker 20

  How do you figure?

• 21:59Speaker 19

  Breathtaking. In a Super Bowl, that's a breathtaking call. You don't make that, that would second guess forever.

• 22:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Doug Peterson today.

• 22:09Speaker 16

  You know, it's definitely gonna go down, I think, as one of the greatest Super Bowl memories.

• 22:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  But now it was only halftime. Peterson had another chance to be fearless in the fourth quarter. Now the Eagles were trailing.

• 22:20Speaker 20

  Thirty-three, thirty-two.

• 22:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  They had the ball near midfield, facing another fourth down.

• 22:25Speaker 20

  For the moment, they're gonna lead the offense on the field. Do you dare?

• 22:29Speaker 16

  I think there was just six minutes or so left in the game. And, you know, if you remember, the Patriots didn't punt a single time in the football game. And we were struggling to stop them. And I just knew, there's no way I'm gonna punt this football and give Tom Brady the ball back, where he could either run the clock out and win the game, or go down and score again. So I wanted our team to control our destiny. And I just, in my gut, said, this is the right time to do it. I didn't flinch. Called the next play on fourth down.

• 22:59Speaker 20

  And Foles, under pressure, throws, caught.

• 23:01Speaker 16

  And we got it by, you know, by a yard.

• 23:03Speaker 20

  Just enough for the first down.

• 23:06Speaker 16

  And we ultimately went down and scored the game-winning touchdown.

• 23:09Speaker 20

  The Philadelphia Eagles are Super Bowl champions.

• 23:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Peterson, of course, was just the coach. He didn't actually have to run the plays. For the people that do, who have to perform difficult, physical feats under massive mental pressure, how do you shed your fear, gather your confidence, and focus on the task at hand? As Bob Tewksbury told us, it generally starts here.

• 23:43Speaker 12

  Yeah, well, I think developing a mental game plan is important for consistent success.

• 23:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  OK, so the mental game plan starts when?

• 23:53Speaker 12

  It starts with the preparation. So, you know, what time do you get up? What time do you eat lunch? What time do you go to the ballpark? What do you do when you're at the ballpark? And more specifically, as you get closer to game time, what do you do from a mental perspective? You know, Jon Lester uses a concentration grid.

• 24:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Jon Lester, whom Tewksbury coached with the Red Sox, has been one of the better pitchers in baseball for many years.

• 24:18Speaker 12

  He's channeling in his mind to get ready to perform, you know, to transition away from my day to getting ready to pitch. I need to make my world a little bit smaller. And that leads into using the imagery program of seeing himself perform or doing, you know, pregame rehearsal of the lineup that he's going to face. Imagery happens better when we're relaxed. So getting there is through the breathing exercises. And then the imagery starts. And so when he goes out to warm up, he can recall those images of what he wants to do with the baseball.

• 24:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now it's time for what Tewksbury says is one of the most important components of the mental game: self-talk.

• 25:06Speaker 12

  So I like to have affirmations or mantras essentially that players can use so that in performance, when things start to go awry... They can help them. I call them anchor statements and those anchors would be see it, feel it, trust it, smooth and easy. I get all it takes to beat the competition one pitch at a time. You know, what you say to yourself, how that little man affects performance, how to understand it, change it, correct it, minimize it, move forward. Without them, your performance could get swept away like a boat in the ocean.

• 25:42Speaker 21

  I do think there is something to that.

• 25:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Brandon McCarthy, who just retired after pitching in the major leagues for 13 years.

• 25:49Speaker 21

  Once the ball's coming back from the catcher, you're still kind of doing a quick breakdown of what just happened and then it's slowing down my breathing, getting myself back to just simply focusing on the execution. And at times that's been based on having a little mantra of good direction, good angle, quality pitch. And you just say that a few times and it, it's something that calms the mind and it enhances some of the delivery things that I'm working on.

• 26:11Speaker 06

  The mind has incredible power.

• 26:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  J.J. Reddick again.

• 26:16Speaker 06

  I think the mind is as big of a separator for professional athletes as any physical tools or physical liabilities that a player may have.

• 26:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  He's been doing some form of self-talk for many, many years.

• 26:31Speaker 06

  So this is sort of like ages eight to 12. It was a lot of imagination. It was a lot of playing imaginary games.

• 26:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  And then years later, playing for Duke in the conference championship.

• 26:43Speaker 06

  We were down, I think 15 points with like 10 minutes to go. I had, I just went, I actually blacked out and just went crazy in the last 10 minutes and had like 23 points.

• 26:53Speaker 22

  Fires a three made it. Holy cow, he made it there. Are you ready to change your MVP vote? J.J. Reddick putting his show on.

• 27:02Speaker 06

  And we won the ACC Championship and in the post-game press conference, I said, you know, I've played that game in my backyard 100 times.

• 27:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Mental preparation and visualization are particularly important for those pressurized moments when the ball is not yet in play and it's your job to put it in play. Picture a tennis or volleyball player about to launch a key serve, a golfer standing over a drive on the 72nd hole of a tournament, or an NFL place kicker preparing for a game winning kick.

• 27:40Speaker 09

  When you're young, you want to kick a bunch of footballs to figure it out.

• 27:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's Robbie Gold of the San Francisco 49ers. He's one of the best kickers in NFL history. Last year, you missed like one field goal?

• 27:52Speaker 09

  I missed two.

• 27:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Two, so 30 for 32 or something?

• 27:55Speaker 09

  39 of 41.

• 27:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, sorry, 39 for 41.

• 27:58Speaker 09

  Who's counting though?

• 27:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. Gold says NFL kickers spend most of their time not kicking footballs.

• 28:04Speaker 09

  You can take mental reps so that way you're not using your leg because every kick that you take is a kick off your career. So the more that you visualize, the more that you mentally go through situations and you talk through situations, it makes those situations easier that you're not wasting reps.

• 28:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  This preparation doesn't just happen during the workday, but also at home.

• 28:24Speaker 09

  I'll get home about 5:30. I'll have dinner with my family. I'll play with my kids, do bath time, read them a book, and then put them down. Once they go to sleep, then I'll pull out my iPad, start watching film, going over game plan, going over what we might have to do that week that may come up, whether it's weather, whether it's playing in a certain place with crowd noise, whether it's something that happened in practice, you're just always thinking of ways to make yourself better.

• 28:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  On some dimensions, making yourself better as an athlete has never been easier. Like the rest of the modern world, sports are undergoing a revolution in data analytics, aren't they?

• 29:07Speaker 05

  Look, to say that data analytics is revolutionary is a bit strong. I view it more as evolutionary.

• 29:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Yale economist Toby Moskowitz again.

• 29:16Speaker 05

  What you're trying to do is make a judgment. That judgment's based on intuition. It's based on theory as well as it's got to be based on data. That's what science is. Every good science is a combination of both.

• 29:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how much do the athletes partake in this data evolution?

• 29:31Speaker 04

  We have heat maps. You know, there's, there's two applications that break down where every serve is coming from, how a hitter does when she gets served in the middle or short or wide. And we watch a ton of videos. So all of that is happening.

• 29:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Kerry Walsh Jennings again.

• 29:44Speaker 04

  I do not do well with all of that sensory input. I want to feel it and certainly know their tendencies, but that's kind of where I want to finish it. I don't need to know the rest.

• 29:53Speaker 06

  So I've got to like, I ration data to myself. I don't let myself read all of it.

• 30:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  The 76ers' J.J. Reddick again.

• 30:02Speaker 06

  You're obsessing about these numbers on a daily basis in the middle of the season. I'm just going to be honest, like I'm a little bit of a head case. You know, I don't want to be in the middle of a game going to my left and saying, wow, if this shot's like 15 percentage points worse than if I was on the other side. Like you just can't do that.

• 30:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Maybe it's just too much to process when you've got the ball. On defense, meanwhile.

• 30:25Speaker 06

  I'll look at all of that data for the people that I guard.

• 30:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Reddick recalls a defensive assignment he had a few years ago at a playoff game. The data revealed that the player he'd be guarding was a great three-point shooter, but.

• 30:39Speaker 06

  If you run him off the line and he has to take a pull-up two or a runner or floater, you know, five to seven feet from the basket, I think this guy was shooting like low 30s.

• 30:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Low 30s, meaning his make percentage, which is pretty low for a two-point shot in the NBA. So whenever this guy got the ball in three-point range, Reddick stayed in his face.

• 31:00Speaker 06

  For the whole series, I didn't care if he beat me off the dribble at all. I think he shot like 27% from two for the series. So I like did my job. So like, that's an example where you use the data available and it works.

• 31:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  The sport that's seen the most use of data for the longest time is baseball. It's partly because some of the early data nerds happen to be baseball fans, but also the sport lends itself to analysis. Every pitch, every at bat, every ball put in play is an independent action that can be independently measured. Even though there are nine players on a team, they don't interact with anything like the complexity of players in football, or soccer, or basketball, or hockey. One obvious change in baseball facilitated by data is how a manager will shift his defense in response to the opposing batter's tendencies. Toward the end of his career, Mark Teixeira suffered from this change.

• 31:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Once teams knew exactly where he was most likely to hit the ball, they would shift their defenses. What used to be a ground ball single up the middle was now an easy out.

• 32:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm curious, the degree to which you think that rise in analytics and the use of the shift was a contributing factor to your decline and how much of it was just the natural cycle of an aging baseball player?

• 32:23Speaker 15

  Yeah, I think it's probably 70/30, just the natural age. Without analytics, I still would be retired. Yeah, still, my body, analytics doesn't make your wrist blow out. Analytics doesn't make you tear up your knee. But I would say that analytics took numbers that should have been better and decreased them.

• 32:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. What are some ways that you benefited from analytics? Did you, I don't know if you were a tape rat, if you watched a lot of tape, and I'm curious whether you studied pitchers and so on for their tendencies?

• 32:52Speaker 15

  I didn't benefit, I don't think, at all. I wasn't the guy that went up there and said, "Okay, it's 2 to 1. This guy has a 73% chance to throw a backdoor slider here. I'm gonna look." I never did that. And there's a whole bunch of players that still don't look at tape.

• 33:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break, from the athletes who have mixed feelings about data to an economist who can't get enough of it.

• 33:18Speaker 13

  The executives looked at the data and said, this is incredibly convincing. And I think you're absolutely right. And then the general manager said, but, I mean, what am I supposed to do about it?

• 33:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how do athletes get their body to do its job when their mind is absolutely melting down?

• 33:39Speaker 21

  You're trying to run a race, except you've lost one of your feet.

• 33:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Also, do you have a burning question about sports? If so, send it along to [email protected]. In a couple of months, we will be participating in the famous MIT-Sloan Sports Analytics Conference, which means we will be asking questions of some of the best and most innovative minds in sports. So if you send us a question, there's a chance it'll end up in a future podcast. Again, write to us at [email protected]. We will be right back.

• 34:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself, and no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times, and low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at SNHU.edu/freakonomics.

• 34:52Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 35:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did, since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-yolo type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 36:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  We've been talking about the mental side of sports. So far, mostly from an internal perspective, using your mind to drive your body's performance. But there's a whole other external perspective to consider: outthinking your opponent. And this gets us into what economists call game theory.

• 36:38Speaker 13

  So, game theory is a part of economics, which is actually quite different than most of the rest of economics, because most of economics focuses on either cases where there are many, many, many people interacting, and that's what we call perfect competition, or where there's exactly one person, like a monopolist, interacting with many people.

• 37:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's my Freakonomics friend and co-author, Steve Levitt. He teaches economics at the University of Chicago.

• 37:07Speaker 13

  But game theory is economics applied to the interactions of two, or three, or four, or five individuals, or firms, or actors. And so, game theory, it turns out, has very different predictions and kinds of predictions than the rest of economics.

• 37:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  Levitt, would you consider yourself a sports economist?

• 37:23Speaker 13

  Absolutely not. I've written papers about sports, but I've only written about sports as a vehicle to understand bigger economic concepts. And sports happen to be a place where there's often really good data, and really well-defined, and simple incentives in play, so that you can match data to incentives to try to answer questions that economists want to answer more generally.

• 37:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Questions about cheating, for instance. In one paper, Levitt analyzed sumo wrestling data and found what he believed was widespread match fixing.

• 37:59Speaker 13

  So it really looks like a quid pro quo. Like, there's a deal worked out where if you let me win when I really need it, the next time we meet, I'm gonna throw the match and let you win.

• 38:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  In another paper, Levitt found evidence of racial bias in the TV game show The Weakest Link. Not quite a sport, I know, but other economists later did similar research and found racial bias among NBA referees and Major League umpires. Levitt has also studied the details of in-game decision-making in professional sports. In a paper he co-wrote with Ken Kovach, a one-time University of Chicago research assistant, now a Cleveland Browns executive, Levitt looked at how good NFL offenses are at confusing or deceiving the defense.

• 38:43Speaker 13

  We looked at whether teams are making the right choices between running plays and passing plays. And our conclusion is that we see that, on average, teams seem to make a mistake.

• 38:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  The mistake is, essentially, being too predictable.

• 39:02Speaker 13

  They seem to not throw enough passes relative to running plays. And NFL teams in particular have lots of serial correlations.

• 39:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  Serial correlation, meaning the previous play is too predictive of the next play. Ideally, you want the play calling to appear nearly random to maximize the element of surprise.

• 39:23Speaker 13

  It turns out, the play that you just ran seems to have a very large influence on the next choice. And interestingly, and almost embarrassingly funny to an economist, is that it's exactly when that play did badly. So if you do a running play and it didn't do well, you are much less likely to call a running play the next time because of, you know, some belief that, well, if it didn't work last time, it's not gonna work this time.

• 39:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  There are, of course, other factors to consider. If a run play fails, you've got more yardage to make up, which might argue in favor of a pass play. But in the final analysis, Levitt and Kovach found that teams were leaving points on the table.

• 40:02Speaker 13

  We think the stakes are really high. The magnitude of the mistakes that they made were associated with scoring like an extra point a game. It doesn't sound like much, but an extra point a game would turn into about half of a win per season. It's worth about $5 million a year. So it looks like roughly to us about a $5 million a year mistake. And by our estimates, we kind of think currently in the National Football League, the number of pass plays is about 58%, 57% when we wrote this paper. And our belief is the optimal looks like it's much more like 70%. There really should be dramatically more passes in the NFL.

• 40:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  Levitt and Kovach also looked at a game theory question in baseball. How well do pitchers randomize their pitches? The best way to fool a hitter is to throw a fastball when they're expecting a curveball or a slider, or a curveball or slider when they're expecting a fastball. Game theory in action. So how well do major league pitchers do at defying expectations?

• 41:05Speaker 13

  It turns out across all major league pitchers, on average, there's a enormous overabundance of fastballs being thrown. And by that, I mean when pitchers throw fastballs, controlling for the situation and controlling for everything imaginable, it turns out that on average pitchers are doing worse when they throw fastballs than when they throw curveballs or sliders. And that suggests that pitchers are not doing what game theory says, which is balancing off the three different kinds of pitches. I agree 100%.

• 41:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  That again is former baseball star Mark Teixeira. We'd asked him about Levitt's research showing that pitchers are too reliant on fastballs. But it's not so simple as merely randomizing, he said. Imagine you're the pitcher, you've got two strikes on the batter and maybe also a runner on third.

• 41:52Speaker 15

  The issue is, is you have to take the pitcher's skill and ability to perform that skill with two strikes. So the pitchers that can throw curveballs and changeups and sliders with two strikes, do it. The guys that maybe bounce that pitch or hang that pitch are going to throw fastballs. And so they're going to get hit. So the best pitchers in baseball, they throw more sliders and curveballs and changeups with two strikes because they can control it better.

• 42:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  In their study, Levitt and Kovach actually did factor in pitcher quality, but even when controlling for pitcher quality, they found too many fastballs. That was good news for a hitter like Teixeira.

• 42:39Speaker 15

  I feasted my entire career was based on not getting me to chase the curveballs and the sliders in the dirt and having to come with a fastball over the middle of the plate. That was the style of hitter that I was.

• 42:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Knowing about this fastball surplus would be especially useful if you are, say, the general manager of a baseball team. Steve Levitt again.

• 43:00Speaker 13

  Well, no, it's funny. So we did get some time with a general manager of a major league club that I will not name to protect the identity of the innocent. The executives looked at the data and said, this is incredibly convincing and I think you're absolutely right. And then the general manager said, but, I mean, what am I supposed to do about it? And I said, throw fewer fastballs. And the guy said, how in the world am I supposed to get my team to throw fewer fastballs? And I said, well, you're the general manager. Why don't you tell them, throw fewer fastballs? He said, I can't do that. I said, okay. I had kind of anticipated that. And so I said,

• 43:44Speaker 13

  You know, here's my other suggestion. There are eight catchers available on the free agent market. And I've calculated over the last three seasons, what share of fastballs have been thrown? When each of these eight catchers have been behind the plate? And there's a big difference. And these two catchers have actually called games with something like four or 5% fewer fastballs per game. And my suggestion is you go pick up those catchers on the free agent market. Well, they didn't do that either. And instead, they stuck with their current catcher, who called the highest share of fastballs of any catcher in the league.

• 44:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  This disconnect between the data and behavior suggests a few things. The first is that decision making in sports, while trending toward the scientific-ish, is often still not that scientific. It also suggests just how strong habit can be and our belief in intuition. Maybe more than anything, it suggests that in the heat of competition, the mental state of a given athlete can be fragile. Brandon McCarthy told us, there were times when a particular pitch in his arsenal just became unavailable.

• 45:05Speaker 21

  Mentally, you just couldn't imagine throwing that pitch where you wanted.

• 45:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  In McCarthy's case, it was his fastball. The problem started when he was pitching for the Los Angeles Dodgers and followed him off and on to the Atlanta Braves.

• 45:17Speaker 21

  I mean, your brain just, I couldn't, I would lay down, you'd close your eyes and try and picture throwing that. And it was, it truly felt like your brain went in a tilt-a-wheel. And you just couldn't, you couldn't picture it. I couldn't, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't imagine doing it. It just went haywire. So you would, when it would happen in a game, you would try and throw everything else to make something work and keep going as long as you can. But you're very aware that you're, you're now trying to run a race, except you've lost one of your feet. I was convinced early on it was a mechanical thing. It feels like it's something physical that eventually becomes mental and then you just can't see otherwise.

• 45:52Speaker 21

  So I really, I don't know. I just know I'm fortunate that it happened late enough in my career that I could get past it, or at least work around it. It's the thing that I find most, that most of the best athletes in the world are, are the ones who can control something in their mind just a little bit better than everybody else can. They can be physically gifted, able to do certain things that others can't. And I think that last bit is just how much better they are mentally in some capacity that we haven't figured out.

• 46:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  I asked McCarthy how much of that mental advantage lies in the ability to self-diagnose in the moment.

• 46:25Speaker 21

  It's a tremendously large component. Not just the ability to diagnose, but the ability to fix instantly. Not just, I'm not doing this well today, this is what I have to work on before my next start. It's how do I fix this for the next pitch? And watching Clayton Kershaw in LA for the last three years.

• 46:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Clayton Kershaw, McCarthy's teammate during that time, is one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball. One thing that McCarthy particularly admired about Kershaw.

• 46:50Speaker 21

  Is how quickly he fixes something where most everybody else kind of spirals and it turns into an okay outing or a poor outing. His turns into just a less great outing because he fixes the little thing that's going wrong. And then even if it's still not great, it's much better. And then by the next start, he fixes it again. And that's the diagnosing and the ability to fix immediately. That, the brain and physical ability to do that is, is very rare.

• 47:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you pick his brain when he was a teammate of yours?

• 47:20Speaker 21

  As much as you can. But one thing I've noticed when you talk to players who are really, really great and they're historically great is, a lot of them can't explain the things that they do. It's why a lot of them make for bad coaches. I've had Greg Maddox in different camps with me before and, how do you throw your change up? And it's, I grip it like this and I throw it. And you, well, thank you. That's not, it wasn't of any help to me. But in his mind, it makes complete sense.

• 47:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Bob Tewksbury, the former pitcher and now mental skills coach, argues that the ability to self-diagnose and self-correct in the moment is among an athlete's most important tools.

• 47:55Speaker 12

  I think that's the ability to have consistent performance. And what I mean by that is, you know, you're not always going to go out and perform well every game. And that's what happens to athletes is they get to that situation and they don't know how to manage themselves out of it. You know, there's a lot of great five o'clock hitters, guys that hit the ball very far during batting practice but can't hit in a game. And there's a lot of pitchers who pitch no hitters in the bullpen and can't take it with them across the lines.

• 48:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  I asked Tewksbury to explain how a pitcher like him, in the heat of competition, could get himself back in sync if his mechanics started to go haywire.

• 48:41Speaker 12

  So my mechanics, you step back with your left foot, you rotate your right foot adjacent to the pitching rubber, your hips turn clockwise toward third base, you lift up your left leg. As you do that simultaneously, your hands are together at about the waist, waist to the shoulder height. Then your hands, as your body starts to go forward toward the mound, your hands separate with the ball coming out of your glove. Your body continues to glide toward home plate. Your left shoulder should be in line with your target. As your arm takes its arc and path and gets into a position to throw, now your body is square to home plate, your left leg has hit the

• 49:21Speaker 12

  ground, your left knee is bent, and the arm continues its arc, and you throw the pitch to your intended target. So there's a feeling that happens with that. When that is all in sync, you know that the ball can be located at your intended spot.

• 49:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what if the ball doesn't hit your intended spot?

• 49:42Speaker 12

  So say I throw that pitch and I bounce it in front of home plate. That tells me that I got out and my body was too far in front of my release point, so that the only place the ball would go would be down. Conversely, if my body was lagging, or if my arm was lagging, the ball would be high. And so once you know how your body responds, you're able to make that correction.

• 50:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Simple, right? And remember, you're not just throwing the ball into space. You're throwing to a supremely tuned and muscled opponent gripping a long piece of hardwood, preparing to hit the ball as hard as he can, right back in your direction from just 60 feet, six inches away. So what do you do in that moment if your mechanics are off? If your confidence abandons you? If the only thought in your mind is that your next pitch is about to be crushed?

• 50:38Speaker 12

  What you do is you delete the thought, "I'm gonna just change the channel." You know, it's like, "I'm watching this bad channel, I'm gonna change it to ESPN." Delete the thought, take a breath, and then reframe that thought, or use an anchor statement.

• 50:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Some of Tewksbury's anchor statements, as you'll recall?

• 50:56Speaker 12

  "See it, feel it, trust it. Smooth and easy, one pitch at a time."

• 51:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  And if that doesn't work, here's what Tewksbury suggests.

• 51:04Speaker 12

  Taking a tongue depressor timeout. I tell pitchers to tape two tongue depressors together, put it in your back pocket, and when things get tough on the mound, call a timeout, go back behind the mound, clean your spikes, or make pretend you cleaned your spikes. That allows you more time to take your breath, to refocus. That's a lot better than going around the mound, walking around the mound, rubbing up the baseball, because your behavior is really adding to your frustration. You're not doing anything to slow down.

• 51:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  And slowing down your mind is almost always a good thing. When he coaches athletes, Tewksbury uses a simple four-step mantra to get their mind right. Step one, slow down. Step two, breathe seriously. Under pressure, it's easy to forget to breathe. Breathing is important, and it helps you slow down. Step three, engage in some positive self-talk. "I got this." Step four, focus on the task at hand.

• 52:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  There, now you've got it. Bob Tewksbury's recipe for success in athletic competition under pressure. It's just one problem. For every athlete trying to harness their own mental fortitude, there's an opponent trying to mess with them, trying to invade their mental space, trying to plant a seed of doubt, or confusion, or fear. That is the premise behind one of the most entertaining mental battles in sport, a practice in American football known as icing the kicker. There's just a few seconds left on the clock. One team trails by a single point and they are lining up for a game-winning field goal. The kicker goes through his mental preparation.

• 52:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  He breathes, maybe he invokes a mantra, he focuses on the task at hand, and then, just as the ball is snapped, the other team is called a timeout. This is how you ice the kicker. The opposing coach wants to freeze the kicker out of his routine. He wants to make him think a bit more about the enormity of the circumstance. Icing the kicker has become a standard move in these situations, and occasionally it yields results. In the Eagles-Bears playoff game a couple of weeks ago, the Bears kicker was iced and he missed the kick. But overall, statistically, is icing the kicker effective?

• 53:39Speaker 05

  It's certainly the conventional wisdom.

• 53:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  That, again, is the sports-loving Yale economist Toby Moskowitz, who covered this phenomenon in his book Scorecasting.

• 53:49Speaker 05

  It's something every fan believes, and in fact, every fan expects a coach to do. But it turns out, there is no effect from this. And if you think about it logically, it makes sense. These are kickers, if you make it to this level in the professional football league, they've kicked the ball thousands upon thousands of times in many pressure situations. They're selected on that dimension. As one professional kicker said to us when we were writing the book, "You know, if something like that bothers you, you probably shouldn't be kicking in this league."

• 54:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  That professional kicker, it turns out, was none other than Robbie Gold, whom we heard from earlier.

• 54:24Speaker 09

  You're just always thinking of ways to make yourself better.

• 54:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Gold prides himself on mental toughness and mental preparation. This includes practicing alone and with his team for any game time possibility, including being the kicker who's getting iced.

• 54:41Speaker 09

  We'll actually line up the field goal, snap, hold, but won't kick it. So you go through your entire routine, whether it's head coach calling a timeout to ice you, whether it's, you know, there is a bad snap. These are all situations that come up that you have to be aware of.

• 54:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Part of that awareness is the particularly intense pressure of the position Gold plays. Let's say you kick the game-winning field goal. You're the hero. And if you miss it...

• 55:08Speaker 09

  I don't get another chance to get that play back, right? I have to wait for the next week to get it. Some players, like wide receivers, DBs, they have 70 plays a game. So if they screw up, they can go right back to it. Well, as a kicker, you have to make them count because the point totals in the National Football League are staggering to the point of how many close games there are.

• 55:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  Gold just finished his 14th NFL season and his second with the 49ers.

• 55:34Speaker 09

  Yeah, I played 11 with the Chicago Bears. I played one with the Giants.

• 55:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Bears, remember, were eliminated from the playoffs this year when their kicker was iced and missed the game-winning field goal. Gold, meanwhile, had another excellent season this year for the 49ers. He made 33 field goals and missed just one, though he did miss two extra point attempts. His team, meanwhile, was a mostly dreadful season marked by injuries and losses. So what happens to Gold next year?

• 56:06Speaker 09

  You never know. You know, I mean, you could be here one day and gone the next. I mean, I got cut in Chicago on Labor Day weekend after, you know, making the team. And then the next day, it's just how it is.

• 56:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Had you missed a couple in the game?

• 56:19Speaker 09

  I missed a couple in preseason, but, I mean, it was just a lot of different things. Salary cap issues, you know, I had a big cap number that year.

• 56:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right. What's the most you've ever earned in a year?

• 56:30Speaker 09

  Uh, probably $4 million.

• 56:33Speaker 09

  Well, I mean, this is a business. This is not a college football scholarship. It just isn't. It doesn't matter what round you're picked in. It doesn't matter how much you're making, how old you are in the league, how experienced you are. You know, I think every day you have to earn your keep.

• 56:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Of all the mind games a professional athlete must master, this is perhaps the most difficult. How to sustain your career once you've reached the elite level? Once you've realized that as good as you may be, there are 100 people nearly as good, maybe even better, who can't wait to take your place. The life of a professional athlete is relatively short. If you're lucky enough to be paid well, you have a relatively small window of time to take advantage. And the people who pay your salary, well, they'd be very happy to pay someone else less. So, coming up next time on Freakonomics Radio, we get into perhaps the toughest competition in all of sports.

• 57:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  The reality is, they are management and we are labor. We'll start with the management side. We'll hear from team owners and league officials from the big team sports like Major League Baseball.

• 57:47Speaker 23

  Right now, one of the commissioner's main objectives is to spread the game globally.

• 57:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  As well as newcomers, like the UFC.

• 57:56Speaker 24

  $300 million per year over five years, $1.5 billion total.

• 57:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  We'll hear their dreams of expansion.

• 58:02Speaker 24

  When you're talking about 130 million households in this country, you know, there's billions of households not in this country.

• 58:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Their excitement over legalized gambling. Yeah, I think it'll lead to our franchise valuations doubling. We'll hear what they hate about their own sports.

• 58:16Speaker 09

  The ends of NBA games is one of my bugaboos. I just can't stand the fouls and timeouts.

• 58:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  What they think is the sport of the future. I'd take esports. And we'll hear where the money goes.

• 58:29Speaker 08

  They're making a lot of revenues, but not much of that is going into the athletes.

• 58:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's next time on Freakonomics Radio. We will also periodically release some of the full interviews from the series, including soon Mark Teixeira and Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban. So keep your ear out for those.

• 58:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dubner Productions. This episode was produced by Alvin Melathe, Anders Kelto, and Derek John, with help from Matt Straub and Harry Huggins. Our staff also includes Alison Kreglo, Greg Rippon, and Zach Lipinski. Our theme song is "Mr. Fortune" by The Hitchhikers. All the other music was composed by Luis Guerra. You can subscribe to Freakonomics Radio on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The entire archive is available on the Stitcher app or at Freakonomics.com, where we also publish transcripts and show notes and much more. We can be found on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn, or via email at [email protected]. Freakonomics Radio also plays on most of your better NPR stations. Check your local station for details. As always, thank you for listening.

• 59:38Speaker 14

  Stitcher.

• 59:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by EverPure. Is the value of AI not living up to the promise? The problem is probably your data, not your AI models. When it's scattered across different systems, getting your data AI-ready is a challenge. You keep your AI waiting, and everything slows down. EverPure unifies your data, so you can see it, understand it, and control it all from one simple place, and get it AI-ready fast. Unlock the true value of your AI at everpuredata.com.

• 1:00:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible. And when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic Pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 and 9mg, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit ozempic.com to view the medication guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic Pill.

• 1:00:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern Company. The world and its energy needs are always changing. Southern Company's commitment to meeting this demand stays the same. That's because Southern Company believes energy is more than a utility. It's what powers possibilities. So they are looking ahead and investing $80 billion in infrastructure upgrades and are committed to fueling growth in ways that benefit all customers so that reliable and affordable energy is accessible for generations to come. Go to southerncompany.com to learn more. Southern Company, building the future of energy.

• 1:01:26Speaker 25

  This episode is brought to you by Charles Schwab. Is there a right time to sell a stock? Are you taking the right risks with your portfolio? Financial decisions can be tricky, and often, your own cognitive and emotional biases can lead you astray. Financial Decoder, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, can help. Join host Mark Reapy as he offers practical solutions to help overcome the cognitive and emotional biases that may affect your investing decisions. Listen at schwab.com/financialdecoder.