Pod Insights How to Be a Better Human How to strengthen your relationships — one airport ride at a time (w/ Kasley Killam) About this episode How often do you connect with different people each week? How many many close relationships do you aim to cultivate during those connections? And how long do these interactions last? Kasley Killam has the perfect guide to help you build better social connections – the 5-3-1 Rule. Kasley is a social scientist and the author of The Art of Science and Connection. Kasley joins Chris to discuss the future of social connection – why do we invest in physical health but not social health? And what happens when you substitute companionship for AI chatbots? Kasley shares tips on how to connect with your community and rethink social norms on technology.
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Host: Chris Duffy (Instagram: @chrisiduffy https://www.instagram.com/chrisiduffy/?hl=en | chrisduffycomedy.com https://chrisduffycomedy.com/)
Guest: Kasley Killam (Instagram: @kasleykillam https://www.instagram.com/kasleykillam/?hl=en | LinkedIn: @kasleykillam https://www.linkedin.com/in/kasleykillam/ | Website: https://www.kasleykillam.com/)
Links
TED Talk: Why social health is key to happiness and longevity https://www.ted.com/talks/kasley_killam_why_social_health_is_key_to_happiness_and_longevity?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAadrWmItm78cG4bahRelclqQ2__gIwU5jgsGBCATrJxvgeCSsRDzOyL06VDOjQ_aem_l5fmzcYn2YK490pqGIH5IA
Substack: Social Health with Kasley Killam https://socialhealth.substack.com/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAafJorqNdXuI-VcD7Ord378p1C8imRBOivtDVRwQB6-9-6bibIh50rFYmWhAyA_aem_L4xXnqYHGOLfGF6AcGXPWw
Book: https://www.kasleykillam.com/social-health-book
Newsletter: https://www.kasleykillam.com/newsletter
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0:02 Chris Duffy? You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I am your host, Chris Duffy. This is an episode of our podcast that has had a direct and immediate impact on my life. My family and I just moved and I was totally overwhelmed by the boxes and the unpacking and all of the logistics. But because of today's guest, Casely Killam, I sent out an email to a bunch of friends and I asked for help. I was frankly, very nervous about sending this email. I was worried what people would think. Was I being annoying? Was it rude to ask for help? Were people gonna stop liking me? But instead, people were so kind and responded and helped us out. And what's more, we had fun. I mean, it was still overwhelming and I still think moving is extremely unpleasant. It's not like that part changed, but it was a lot less unpleasant
0:47 Chris Duffy? than it could have been. And that's because I got so much social support. Today's guest, Casely Killam, has been studying the importance of social support and connection for years. And as you'll hear in this episode, she directly challenged me to do more to ask other people for help, to believe that asking for help can in fact, help strengthen friendships. But Casely has also been looking at how dire the current state of social connection is. And she believes that we really need to view this as a crisis. Here's a clip from Casely's TED Talk.
1:17 Speaker 01 Hundreds of millions of people around the world go weeks at a time without talking to a single friend or family member. Globally, one in four people feel lonely. And 20% of adults worldwide don't feel like they have anyone they can reach out to for support. Think about that. One in five people you encounter may feel like they have no one. This is more than heartbreaking. It's also a public health crisis. Disconnection triggers stress in the body. It weakens people's immune systems. It puts them at a risk, greater risk of stroke, heart disease, diabetes, dementia,
2:00 Speaker 01 depression, and early death. Social health is essential for longevity.
2:07 Speaker 01 So you might be wondering, what does it look like to be socially healthy? What does that even mean? Well, it's about developing close relationships with your family, your friends, your partner, yourself. It's about having regular interaction with your coworkers, your neighbors. It's about feeling like you belong to a community. Being socially healthy is about having the right quantity and quality of connection for you.
2:36 Chris Duffy? We're going to be back in just a moment with a lot more on the science of social health and connection, including practical steps that you can take to improve your own social health and to make your life better, easier, and more fun. So stay tuned. You don't want to miss this.
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3:34 Chris Duffy? This episode is sponsored by the Natural Resources Defense Council. Here's a question this show asks a lot. What can one person actually do? Take protecting the environment. When the task feels so big, it's hard to know where to even begin. Turns out, the answer isn't doing it alone. It's teaming up with people who care as much as you do. With the help of 3 million supporters, the Natural Resources Defense Council is in court to defend ancient forests, pristine coasts, and the wildlife that depend on them. None of these places or species can be replaced. They're still here because people fought for them, in and out of court. And that fight needs your support today. Donate at N R D C dot org slash human, and your gift will be matched five times.
4:24 Speaker 03 We're talking about social health and connection today with Casely Killam.
4:28 Speaker 01 Hello, my name is Casely Killam and I'm the author of The Art and Science of Connection.
4:33 Speaker 03 For people who haven't already read your book, let's talk about what social health is. Let's just define the terms.
4:38 Speaker 01 Sure. So if you think about physical health as being about your body and mental health is about your mind, social health is about your relationships. So I think it's really important to actually distinguish this as a separate pillar because decades of research at this point have shown that human connection is so much more important than we realize. It's not just something that makes you feel happy when you spend time with your friends and family. It's not just about, you know, mitigating depression or things like that. It literally reduces your risk of things like heart disease and stroke and diabetes and dementia and premature mortality at the very extreme end. So in other words, our relationships are actually determining how
5:20 Speaker 01 long we live. And so social health is about recognizing that and really elevating the fact that this dimension of our wellbeing that comes from connection and community is vital. It's essential.
5:34 Speaker 03 Now, just to kind of put that in like a scale, I've heard some researchers who study connection and friendship say that if you had a really healthy level of connection and social life and close community in your life, that that is more important for your health than anything short of smoking cigarettes.
5:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:55 Speaker 03 Like, if you don't smoke cigarettes, the second most important thing you could do to make yourself healthier is to have a connected social life.
6:02 Speaker 01 That's right. Yeah. Or some studies even show it's the most important thing.
6:06 Speaker 03 Wow.
6:07 Speaker 01 So I think what that highlights is that we need to elevate connection. Like when we typically talk about what it means to be healthy or what you need to do to be healthy, we think of like, get a good night's sleep, eat healthy foods, exercise often, don't smoke, things like that. And maintaining meaningful relationships needs to be part of that equation. And we actually need to think about that as vital for our health.
6:31 Speaker 03 And you have the five, three, one rule as a way of doing that?
6:34 Speaker 01 Yes, yes. So this is the five, three, one guideline, or you can think of it as like a challenge. Right? And so the idea is to aim to connect with five different people each week, to cultivate at least three close relationships and to spend one hour a day total connecting. So that's like a benchmark if you're not sure where to start. It's really important to recognize that with connection, quality is more important than quantity, especially for introverts, of which I am. So aiming for that more, but if you want some sort of number or some sort of like starting place to help guide your actions, then that can be a helpful starting place. So five different people each week, three close relationships, one hour a day connecting.
7:17 Speaker 03 I'm actually kind of interested that quality is more important than quantity.
7:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:21 Speaker 03 That doesn't seem totally intuitive to me, right? Like if, if social life is so important, maybe I should meet 20 people in a week and that would be my wow, I really put myself out there week. Versus like having one conversation for two hours with my brother.
7:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:37 Speaker 03 It's not immediately obvious to me that the second is better than the first.
7:41 Speaker 01 Yeah. Oh, good. This is fun. So I think what's important here is it depends on your personality, right? So if you're someone who's really extroverted and you thrive on socializing with people all the time and meeting new people and it's very energizing for you to be around people all the time, then that might actually be true for you, right? And five, three, one, those numbers might seem really low for you. But it's also true that socializing more is not necessarily better. So I'm an introvert, which might be surprising because I talk all about connection. But what that just means, it doesn't mean that I don't need connection less than than an extrovert. It just means that the amount of interaction that's fulfilling and energizing to me
8:24 Speaker 01 and the ways that I enjoy connecting might be different. And so this is where kind of individual differences and preferences really come into play.
8:32 Speaker 03 I am very far on the extrovert side, but my wife is very much an introvert. And I feel like one of the ways that it often plays out is not that we like. Not that she doesn't need interaction with friends and to meet new people, but that afterwards, she needs time alone.
8:48 Speaker 01 Yes.
8:48 Speaker 03 Like, that was a whole new idea to me, that someone could be like, now I need to go in a room alone for a while, not because I'm upset.
8:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, no, that I love that. I love that you called that out. And it's interesting how many times I meet people who are an extrovert introvert couple. But yeah, that's exactly it. It's we introverts love connecting with other people, especially on a deeper level. But we need to balance that with solitude. And that kind of alone time to recharge our batteries is super important. And so that's why we can think about being socially healthy is partly connecting with others. It's also connecting with yourself and making sure that that's part of your your overall kind of social life.
9:27 Speaker 03 Do you think that there is like, I don't know if it would be evolutionary, but is there some reason tied to the to the health benefits that you've been talking about with social health? For why introverts and extroverts might end up together? Like, you kind of intuitively know that for your long term health, you need someone who's going to push you a little bit. And you also know, if you're me, that you need someone who's going to be like, let's take a little time alone, too.
9:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:51 Speaker 03 I wonder if there's some reason for that.
9:52 Speaker 01 I wonder if there is too. I mean, not that I've come across in the research, but it makes sense. I think there's also this idea of, you know, there's value to both. So, for example, there are studies showing that even introverts end up feeling happier when they socialize a bit more than they think they would enjoy, right? And extroverts enjoy going deeper into conversation than they might kind of do on a on a normal basis. And so I think there's something to this idea of like stretching our social muscles and going a bit outside of our comfort zones in either direction. Where having a partner who kind of pulls you toward that middle and challenges you a bit is probably a good thing.
10:29 Speaker 03 How would someone actually do this? Like, how do you have? Five connections in a week.
10:36 Speaker 01 Yeah. You already do for sure.
10:38 Speaker 03 Oh, well, I do because it's like professionally I have to.
10:41 Speaker 01 Yes, yeah.
10:42 Speaker 03 But actually, does that count? If I'm doing it for work, does it count?
10:44 Speaker 01 It can definitely count.
10:46 Speaker 03 Can I count this as one of my five?
10:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, you can count this. Yeah, we're connecting. This is fun.
10:50 Speaker 03 I feel that. I'm glad to know it's reciprocal.
10:52 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
10:52 Speaker 03 But like that would count even if it's like a work setting.
10:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, so the way I would think about it is it's about having diverse social interactions. The number five in the five through one, right? So the research shows that you don't want to just put all your eggs in one basket or all your interactions with one person, right? So if you only were socializing with your wife and just neglected your other connections, that would be problematic. It's actually uniquely beneficial to engage with a variety of people. Friends, coworkers, neighbors, right? All different kinds of people and people who aren't like you too. There's really interesting data showing that when you engage with people who come from a different background, have different beliefs, are of different ages and so on, that's actually uniquely beneficial.
11:39 Speaker 01 And so, yeah, I would, I would say, you know, it could be engaging with your close loved ones, it could be engaging with colleagues, it could be chatting with the barista or the bus driver or things like that, or having a friendly interaction with your neighbor, right? It's just about having diverse interaction so that your social life feels a little bit more vibrant and so that you're bringing out different parts of your personality with different people.
12:05 Speaker 03 Especially since you're an introvert, people must ask you this because it's hard for them to. What do you find are some of the biggest like bang for your buck social interactions? I'll just give you what I assume is an example, which is I have a, I've had for years, a weekly breakfast scheduled with one of my closest friends. So every Tuesday morning, we have breakfast, it's on the calendar. When we're traveling, we do it on the phone. But for me, the reason that's such like a big bang for my buck is it requires no scheduling. It actually requires work to cancel it.
12:36 Speaker 01 Yep.
12:37 Speaker 03 And so, you know, it's just on my calendar, it's on his calendar, we do it.
12:40 Speaker 01 Yep, I love it. That's one of the tips in my book.
12:43 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, I know. That's why I brought it up. But so for me, that's like that one, like I've put that into place in my own life and I really see the benefits of it. What about, what are some other ones that are uniquely you get a lot more out than you put in?
12:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, I think what's interesting here is.
12:59 Speaker 01 There are quite a few studies showing that really simple forms of connection on an ongoing basis can be really rewarding. So for example, there was one study that looked at 10 minute phone calls multiple times a week. And people who engaged in those phone calls, just 10 minutes, actually felt less lonely, like measurably less lonely after, uh, I think it was about a month or maybe two month period, right? So even a 10 minute phone call with someone you love, an old friend, a family member, a few times a week, or things as simple as, you know, texting a friend and saying, I'm thinking about you. I think there's, there are really easy ways that we can kind of weave this in. Like, as soon as someone you know comes into your head, right, you like randomly think of a colleague
13:43 Speaker 01 or you hear a song on the radio and you, it reminds you of a friend, text that person or email that person right away and just say, hey, this made me think of you. Little touchpoints like that can be really meaningful. Now, of course, we need deeper connection too. And so when you talk about like being for your buck, it's important that we're making sure we prioritize deeper quality time too. But I think it's easy to, like something I hear all the time is that I'm just busy. Like, I don't have time to, you know, spend two hours a week having breakfast with, with my friend or whatever, when in fact, we can weave it in, in smaller ways that are still impactful.
14:19 Speaker 03 Yeah, something that you talked about in the book and, and in your talk that I think really resonates with me is that's not like the language that people use when they think about their physical health.
14:27 Speaker 01 Right.
14:28 Speaker 03 Like people get that it, of course, it takes time to go to the gym. It takes time to go for a run. It takes time to find, time to buy the salad ingredients instead of eating at a fast food chain. But people kind of understand that that time pays off in all these other ways. And it's important.
14:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:44 Speaker 03 And I think there is this idea that because often taking care of your social health feels good. Like, it's often fun.
14:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:54 Speaker 03 People are like, well, that, that's like a bonus.
14:56 Speaker 01 It's leisure time. Yes, exactly.
14:59 Speaker 03 Can you talk about like how to combat that?
15:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think that's what I'm really trying to fight is this idea that we think our relationships
15:09 Speaker 01 Or we easily let our relationships come last, right? Like, it's the last priority. It's kind of like our jobs come first. You know, we're so busy working all the time. And, oh, if I get around to it, I'll hang out with with my friends. And I'm so guilty of this. Let me be very clear. I'm guilty of this, too. So this is as much a reminder for myself as well. When actually, what we need to really integrate into our understanding as individuals and as a society is that connection is essential. It's actually determining how long we live in addition to the quality of our living when we're alive. But also, coming back to your your point about how we think about exercise, for example.
15:52 Speaker 01 So we walked here together and we took the escalator. We should have taken the stairs, right? And that's an example of like, a simple change that you can make, that, yeah, it's not spending an hour at the gym, but walking up the stairs is better for you than taking the escalator. So think about that with connection as well. Like, what are there? How are there small opportunities in your everyday to weave connection in, even if you don't have time for, you know, a long hangout with someone?
16:24 Chris Duffy? Well, we are going to be hanging out more with Casely in just a moment. But first, some quick podcast ads, so don't go anywhere.
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19:32 Chris Duffy? And we are back with Casely Killam.
19:34 Speaker 03 This is me getting a little bit up on a philosophical soapbox here. But, you know, we're here at the TED conference in Vancouver. That's where we're recording this. There are so many people here who are very, very deep in the technology world.
19:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:48 Speaker 03 And one of the big things that is getting talked about right now is all these potentials and possibilities for AI and artificial intelligence. And something that I'm always really struck by with that is that it's like, there really feels like this philosophical goal of making things as easy and efficient and smooth as possible.
20:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:10 Speaker 03 And to me, that philosophical goal of like, how can I get from A to B as quickly as possible? It kind of seems really at odds with connection and with having human experiences and creating memories with people, right? Like, it's so rare that a great memory of a friend is like, and we were traveling and boy, did that flight take off on time. You know, like, that's like, never a good story. Like, you want the circuitous route. That's where you build relationships and connection.
20:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:38 Speaker 03 I feel like so much of technology is trying to get us from A to B faster, when maybe that, we haven't thought about what we do when we get to B.
20:43 Speaker 01 Absolutely, yeah. Or think about, you know, ordering your groceries instead of going to the grocery store where you would otherwise have to talk with the cashier or maybe ask a question of where to find something, right? You're so right that I think by designing everything to be as easy as possible and as frictionless as possible, we're removing the magic of spontaneous connection, which can happen in everyday life. And I think that's a problem. I also think another example of this is not wanting to burden other people. Now, there's this kind of idea of, oh, I can just call an Uber or a taxi to go to the airport, so I shouldn't burden my friend or my family member to drive me, right?
21:24 Speaker 01 Or other examples where it's like, there's this reluctance to, you know, I'm going away for a week, can you babysit my pet, right? Things like that, we're just fearful or we feel like a burden if we're asking for help. But that's actually robbing people of the chance to help us. And the research also shows that we feel more connected and we deepen our connections when we help other people. And so I actually would invite us all, including myself, to think about asking for help or being a burden or creating friction as a way to give others an opportunity to feel like they matter to you.
22:02 Speaker 03 This is one that I struggle with personally.
22:04 Speaker 01 Me too, me too.
22:05 Speaker 03 I I love when people ask me to help them with something. I feel so needed and it feels so fun and connected. And then when the flip side, I get so in my head of like, oh, my gosh, it's going to put too much pressure on them. They're going to feel like they have to say yes. They're actually going to secretly hate me because I did this. And so I don't do it. And I think that it's a real loss for me. I really do. But I struggle with it a lot.
22:26 Speaker 01 Yeah. Or I think another example of this is going to a different city and wanting to stay with a friend versus staying in a hotel or an Airbnb, for example. Like, that can feel like a burden nowadays. Where have we gotten in our lives, in our society, where we feel like we're burdening other people when we want to spend time with them and be together? Like, this is a fundamental shift that needs to happen, where we need to go back toward recognizing that it's a gift to be able to spend time together and to take care of someone else.
22:57 Speaker 03 I think also, at least in my experience, it feels like when we're younger, the societal expectations are a lot looser around that. Like, of course, you don't have any money, you're just starting out. If you come to Boston, you're gonna sleep on my couch.
23:11 Speaker 01 So true.
23:12 Speaker 03 And then as we get a little older, I mean, partly, it's like, sleeping on a couch is gonna destroy my back for a week in a way that it wouldn't when I was nineteen. But but I also think there's just kind of this, like, at a time when we need the connection more.
23:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:25 Speaker 03 We feel more awkward about asking for it.
23:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:29 Speaker 03 And I'm using the royal we here, because I'm definitely talking about myself.
23:31 Speaker 01 Oh, me too.
23:32 Speaker 03 But I think it applies to all people too.
23:33 Speaker 01 I feel, I totally struggle with this as well. Yeah, it's really interesting. And and all the trends in the data are showing we're spending more time alone, we have fewer close friends, we belong to fewer community groups. That's a problem. Like, that's affecting our social health, that's affecting our mental health, that's affecting our physical health. And circling back, you brought up before kind of AI, which, like you said, is the talk of Ted this week. And there's a huge trend of, you know, designing AI and using AI as a replacement for companionship, for connection. And there are a lot of tools where people are using AI chatbots as friends, as romantic
24:13 Speaker 01 partners, not necessarily as a supplement to human connection, but as a substitute to human connection. And one of the things I explored in my book was kind of getting to know some of these people who are using this, and I tried it out myself as well. And really thinking about this question of, does it matter if the connection that you feel is coming from code rather than cells and from AI rather than IQ or EQ and from data networks rather than neural networks? Like, does that matter? And there was actually just a study that came out a couple of weeks ago from researchers at the MIT Media Lab and OpenAI, showing that higher daily use of these chatbots was
24:56 Speaker 01 associated with more loneliness, more emotional dependence, and less socialization with other real humans. So what the data is starting to show is AI chatbots for companionship are not making us less lonely, they're making us more lonely. And so I think as we, you know, continue down this path of shaping what the future of AI and technology is going to be, this is something we need to pay a lot of attention to and be really intentional about. Because I think technology, as we've seen with social media, can help deepen your relationships or it can really destroy them.
25:32 Speaker 03 What are three things that people can do to make more of these connections, to build a little bit more of this friction and dependency into their lives, right? I mean, obviously, one is you can, if you need a ride to the airport, you can ask someone, they can always say no. But what are some, what are three ways that you would suggest people who are watching or listening try?
25:52 Speaker 01 To create friction or to just connect in general?
25:55 Speaker 03 I was actually thinking of them interchangeably. So if they're different, well, let's start with how do you see them as different?
26:01 Speaker 01 Okay.
26:02 Speaker 03 And then you can give us the three.
26:03 Speaker 01 Well, I think there are a lot of ways to connect meaningfully that aren't necessarily creating friction, like giving someone a compliment or showing genuine curiosity and wanting to get to know someone more and asking questions more than you talk yourself. Or, you know, volunteering, right? Like, finding opportunities to help other people. Those are ways that we can feel more connected to the community that we live in, that we can feel like we belong, um, and like it matters that we're alive. And those aren't necessarily creating friction between humans. They're just kind of giving and adding into, into our culture.
26:42 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think those are three great ways. And I can immediately think about in my own life, how dramatically they pay off when I do any of those three things.
26:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
26:52 Speaker 03 Okay, so then I, I see now how the friction, it doesn't have to be necessary. But let's talk about the friction one, because at, at least for me selfishly.
26:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:00 Speaker 03 I'm pretty good at doing those other ones.
27:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:02 Speaker 03 I'm pretty good at about like saying, giving someone a compliment.
27:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
27:05 Speaker 03 I genuinely am very curious, some would say too curious. Ian, like for me, volunteering is the only way that I can combat my pervasive feeling that the world is collapsing around me. But then when I go to the food pantry where I go every week, I feel like, oh, well, actually, here's a bunch of people who are just doing something good for other people.
27:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:25 Speaker 03 And I always leave there not feeling panicked about the future of the world. And it's not like the news changed while I was in there. So those are, those are ones that I really recommend to people, but I also feel like I'm kind of good at on my own.
27:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:38 Speaker 03 And I don't feel like I'm good at the friction ones.
27:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:40 Speaker 03 So.
27:40 Speaker 01 So what's an example of where you feel friction coming up?
27:43 Speaker 03 I would never ask someone to drive me to the airport.
27:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, that's a tricky one because driving to the airport, I mean, I live in LA, it's, it was like a three hour round trip.
27:53 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:54 Speaker 01 Extravaganza.
27:54 Speaker 03 Yes, that, I think because we both live in LA, that's part of it. But, but even, even taking it away from the, the horrors, the unique horrors of the Los Angeles International Airport. I, like, I have a young kid.
28:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:08 Speaker 03 And. I know that a lot of my friends like spending time with kids in general.
28:13 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
28:14 Speaker 03 That like the idea of saying like, hey, you want to come over and like hang out with me and play with the baby?
28:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:20 Speaker 03 Isn't a real burden.
28:22 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
28:23 Speaker 03 But it feels to me like it's harder to ask for something that is helpful.
28:28 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
28:30 Speaker 03 Like, just to give an exact, a real example in my life.
28:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:33 Speaker 03 It feels so much easier to me to say to a friend, will you come over and I will bake croissants, something that takes a lot of work for me.
28:40 Speaker 01 Your friend. Wow, that's awesome.
28:41 Speaker 03 This is how I get people over. But like that, that I'm like, great, I did that. And it's so much harder to say, will you come over and play with our son for an hour so that I can record something I need to record?
28:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:55 Speaker 03 Like, I'm so much more inclined to pay someone to do that.
28:57 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
28:58 Speaker 03 Um, so I think I end up doing these ones that are really hard and as a result.
29:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:03 Speaker 03 I don't see people as much as I would see them.
29:05 Speaker 01 Yes.
29:06 Speaker 03 Because it's not like every day I can bake croissants.
29:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
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30:24 Speaker 05 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.
31:00 Speaker 01 Okay, I think we should do a challenge. I think you should do one a week where you ask someone to help you with something that makes you feel a little uncomfortable. And think of it as an experiment. I have a whole chapter in my book on experimenting and thinking like a scientist about our social health. So I would do it as an experiment. Like, for one month, every week, try one thing where you are asking someone in your life to help you or something that feels like there's friction and a little bit of burden. And then see how it goes. And monitor, how do you feel afterward? How do they feel? Do you, are you more connected? You can even ask them, does this feel like a burden? Like, just get really transparent about it and curious. And I bet that at the end of the month of trying four different things,
31:44 Speaker 01 you're gonna realize all your friends loved it and were so happy to have the opportunity to love on you and support you in that way and also to spend more time together. So that's the hypothesis, and I wanna see you test it.
31:57 Speaker 03 I, I want to do this.
31:59 Speaker 01 You're terrified?
32:00 Speaker 03 No, I'm just genuinely, my honest, genuine reaction to that is that is, that feels scary.
32:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:05 Speaker 03 It does not feel like an easy challenge. Like, sometimes on this show, people are like, here's a challenge. What if you, you know, scrolled through your phone and texted someone different every day? And I'm like, alright, I text someone, that's fine. But this one, I'm like...
32:16 Speaker 01 You're terrified. Oh, good, I like that. Let's lean into that.
32:18 Speaker 03 Which probably means that it's more important to do.
32:19 Speaker 01 Or even start with one. Try it once. Literally try it once and then see what happens.
32:24 Speaker 03 It is such an interesting thing, because, you know, often in therapy, the question is like, how would you feel if this was someone else?
32:29 Speaker 01 Right. How would you feel if your friend asked you that?
32:32 Speaker 03 I love being asked that.
32:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:34 Speaker 03 Always. My friend Olivia had this idea for a party that she calls the big to-do. And it's you bring over your to-do list, and you all do stuff together. You all help each other get your to-do list done. And I was like, that is the most fun idea for a party. But then it was like, would I host a big to-do at my house where it's my to-do list? No.
32:51 Speaker 01 No, I don't want to share my.
32:52 Speaker 03 But I would love to be invited to a to do list. And it's not even about the privacy of my to do list. It's just like, but I could never ask you to help with mine. But I would love to help with yours.
33:00 Speaker 01 That's so interesting. I think what this highlights to me is something that came up to me when I was researching for the book, which is this idea that our own limiting beliefs often get in the way of us being socially healthy. So a lot of times when people feel lonely, a lot of the time, some of the drivers of that are self-limiting beliefs, like feeling really socially anxious, assuming that other people don't like you in social interactions, assuming that it's going to go badly, or thinking that you might be a burden, right? Like, these are examples of ways that we can kind of get in our own heads and then either not even go into the interaction at all,
33:41 Speaker 01 or when you go and are with someone, you have these thoughts in your head and they're actually preventing you from just relaxing and being who you are and engaging in a natural way. And so, one of the kind of most common ways in the research of addressing loneliness is therapy to address those limiting beliefs. But I think all of us can kind of take heart in the fact that there are also studies showing people like us more than we think. People appreciate hearing from us more than we think. Like, it, most of the time, people want connection. And it's, it feels so good when someone is like, hey, I miss you, you know? I, I want to hang out with you. It feels good to be wanted and, and loved.
34:24 Speaker 01 And so, maybe keeping that in the back of our minds and realizing, you know what, chances are, people are going to be receptive to this and, and giving it a go.
34:34 Speaker 03 Two things that I want to touch on, I'm just going to say these so I remember them and put the pin in them, is, is one is like, kind of, the ways in which different identities struggle with us. And then another is some of the science around young people and technology.
34:49 Speaker 01 Yep.
34:50 Speaker 03 There's often kind of like a moral panic around young people and smartphones and screens. But I've seen some recent research that shows that actually... Kids who don't have smartphones often suffer from a lack of connection to their peers. So I'm certainly not arguing for everyone to have a smartphone or for like the the power of social media, but I do think that often these things are more complicated, right? It's not like if we just got rid of all smartphones, then kids would be instantly more connected. And I wonder, as someone who's looked a lot into this, where that messiness of like the line between connection and disconnection is, because these technologies can do both.
35:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, for sure. It is messy, and so much of it depends on how we're using these tools. I think in that example that you shared, the bigger problem is that those kids are in the minority. Most other kids are on smartphones, and so if you're not, you're left out, right? If all your friends are on TikTok and Snapchat and you're not allowed to be on that device, that's a problem. And that's where I love John Height's recommendation of we all need to create a new kind of social norm around this. And if everyone's kids are not allowed to go on social media until a certain age, then that kind of eliminates that problem. I think I suspect that that's what what's going on in that example.
36:16 Speaker 03 But I do think that certain groups, it affects differently.
36:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:19 Speaker 03 So an example I'll give is as a heterosexual married man, I definitely notice that many heterosexual married men have very low levels of social connection.
36:33 Speaker 01 Yes.
36:33 Speaker 03 That there's a lot of people who it is all through their wife.
36:36 Speaker 01 Yep.
36:37 Speaker 03 And that even their social connections are kind of like scheduled like playdates by their wife in some way.
36:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:43 Speaker 03 So what advice would you have for people who are watching or listening where they are in a relationship and their partner has very low social health and they're worried about their partner?
36:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's a great question. Well, first of all, I want to double click on that idea, which is there's a lot of data suggesting that there's a men friendship kind of recession, some people are calling it, like there's a true problem for for men informing friendships and maintaining friendships. And so that's something that I think a lot of people feel where you know, where men are relying on their wives in a lot of cases to to be that source of social connection. I think one of the solutions for this can be men joining other community groups. It's so important for for us all to be part of groups that make us feel like we belong in a different context, even if it isn't like a one on one friendship.
37:37 Speaker 01 So whether that's joining a sports team or and, you know, taking an improv class or joining a book club or whatever that might be that's of interest. Doing something where you can come together with other men and do a shared activity, I think is one way that we need to kind of change the norms around this. Because that takes the pressure off of like, you need to develop this new deep friendship, you know, like, no, just go hang out with a group who you can see on a regular basis, where you have something in common.
38:05 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think that also is is a low stakes way of really making it happen.
38:08 Speaker 01 Exactly, yeah.
38:10 Speaker 03 Okay, and then what about if you are a group where there's some stigma and there's some prejudice and you may not have many other individuals who identify the way you do around you. So I'm thinking like if you're a trans person or if you live in a rural area and you are but also even if you were like, I'm a dancer.
38:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:30 Speaker 03 And there's no dance studio around me.
38:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, totally.
38:33 Speaker 03 It doesn't have to be, you know, these higher stakes
38:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:36 Speaker 03 social identifiers, but I think often like the queer community and the trans community are extremely good at building community. But what about for people who are having trouble finding those people around them?
38:48 Speaker 01 Well, this is where I think a good use case of technology comes up. And I think this is one of the best examples of where we can find community and connection digitally. And another example I would give for that is, you know, people with a rare disease. Where maybe there's no one in their town who shares that disease, but they can connect with them online and find communities where they can share information and support each other on their health journeys. And so that's, I think, kind of the best case scenario of us using technology to find support that we wouldn't be able to get in person otherwise.
39:23 Speaker 03 Well, Casely, thank you so much for being here. It was really a pleasure talking to you.
39:26 Speaker 01 Thank you. This was so fun.
39:31 Chris Duffy? That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Casely Killam. Her book is called The Art and Science of Connection. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my new book, Humor Me, about how to laugh more every day, is available for preorder now. You can find info about my book and all of my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is put together by a team who are deeply connected to this audio. On the TED side, we've got social savants Daniela Balarezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha-Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lamy Lot, Tansaka Sung Manivung, Antonio Lei, and Joseph DeBryne. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Mateus Salas, who bond over reputable data sources. On the PRX side, we've got the audio friends you want in your corner: Morgan Flannery, Norgil, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez.
40:16 Chris Duffy? Thanks again to you for listening. Thanks for being a part of our social network here. Please share this episode with a person who you are glad to be connected to. We will be back next week with even more How to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care.
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42:11 Speaker 02 With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bank. Capital One, N.A., Member FDIC.
42:42 Speaker 05 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.
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