RE-AIR Conversations: The Monstrously Volcanic Breath of the Chimera, Monster Myths w/ Jasmine Elmer

Liv speaks with fellow Classics podcaster Jasmine Elmer (listen to Jasmine's new show, 2026 edition!, Myth Understood wherever you're listening to LTAMB!) about all things monstrous, but particularly... Volcanic monsters and myths of Greece and Rome. AVAILABLE NOW! The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling. https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourhttps://www.mythsbaby.com/contactpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest! CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributionsmythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/grouptrip.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Hi, it's Danny Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. 12 celebrities, one Don, and cold, hard cash. From the producers of The Traitors comes The Mob, a new Hulu original series. The iconic Parker Posey hosts this unique reality competition show where 12 celebrity contestants shake down in an Italian villa to win a share of up to $250,000. Watch the new Hulu original series, The Mob, premiering October 26 on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

• 1:42Liv Albert?

  Oh, hi, hello and welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby. And I am that host of yours, that woman who likes to use the word hecatonchires as much as possible because it's too good. I'm Liv. Well, well, well, if I'm not here with a conversation not only about monsters, but quite specifically about volcanic monsters. Sure, we talk all Greek mythological monsters, but we focused on the volcanic ones and volcanoes broadly because they are super cool. And I got back from Santorini last month and I'm so full of volcano content, I just had to let it all out. I spoke with Jasmine Elmer, a classicist who

• 2:27Liv Albert?

  has her own podcast, Legit Classics, and who appears on UK television to talk all things ancient, though I think usually Rome, which don't worry, we do have a fun little squabble about because you all know how much I prefer the Greek. Now Jasmine and I were pre-existing friends on Twitter and are both super casual people, which I think really comes out in this episode. It's seriously fun, a little rambly, but in a good volcanic sort of way. So you don't have any reason to complain. Plus monsters, spooky season, the whole thing. We had so much fun.

• 3:12Liv Albert?

  Conversations, the monstrously volcanic breaths of the chimera, monster myths with Jasmine Elmer.

• 3:35Liv Albert?

  So today we're talking about monsters. So tell me why monsters were like the topic you suggested and who is your favorite or what do you want to rant about?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Oh my God, how long we got? I mean, why monsters? That's such a, do you know what? I mean, actually, I'm come at this at an angle I don't think you people will expect, but it's not going to make much sense, but bear with me. I have always loved geography. I know you like why you're doing classics, but I've loved geography and I love the natural world. I love particularly hazard geography, right? So when I was looking at classics from the point of view of geography, I was thinking, what can I, what's going to be cool? What's going to be interesting? So I thought, what's one of the best things on the landscape? I thought volcanoes. They're wicked. I mean, I'm from East London, you know, there's no, we don't have them knocking around our landscape and there's none in England. But there's,

• 4:31Speaker 02

  I've always been fascinated by them. And I thought, why don't I combine this fascination with what the chuffing hell, chuffing hell was a very British thing. Do you know what I mean? Like what the hell? I don't know if you know these words, but what, what about when I take something completely insane that I'm interested in, like volcanoes and see where it crosses over with classics? And that's when, when the monsters appeared. Because I know you've already spoken to people about volcanic monsters. But that's where it came from. And I thought monsters are actually cool and they mean loads more than I thought. And I went down that rabbit hole and I'm still in it and I'm not coming out.

• 5:11Liv Albert?

  I don't blame you. I don't blame you. Volcanoes are a huge thing for me. My sister's obsessed with volcanoes. And so actually, like we, I just recently came back from a trip to Greece where I brought my mom and my sister for the first time. Well, for the first time since 2005. So I'm counting it as the first time. But we went specifically looking for volcanoes. So we stayed on the island of Myths and then Santorini for the volcanic purposes. And my mom really needed to see Santorini. But honestly, I mean, that's all to say. Volcanoes are just the absolute coolest things in the whole world. And the fact that they would link them up to monsters is just the best.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I'm just trying to live, you know, I've been doing classics for 22 years, right? So I'd come at it from the point of view as well of just like doing a lot of like wide classical study, all sorts of different things, kind of pivoting to all these different areas of the classical world. Then I just thought, what did that person think standing on the ground in, let's make up a date. I don't know. 100 B.C.

• 6:11Liv Albert?

  400 B.C.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Whatever you like, make up, you want to go. Okay. You don't, you don't want that. Is it too late for you? I knew this was going to happen. There's going to be like a Roman Greek off at some point. But anyway, whatever date Liv wants, because it's Liv's podcast, we'll pick Liv's date. Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking, what, what are they, they're standing there. What are they thinking? Like, you know, what are, what a weird thing to be living around anyway, for anyone that lives in and around a volcano today, what an odd relationship you must have with your, your landscape. But what is that person thinking? Standing there, trying to figure out what is going on with this mountain and what's going to make it angry, what's going to subdue it or what have you? You know, I just find

• 6:57Speaker 02

  that really interesting. And that's kind of, I mean, obviously we can't know the answer to that. It's a completely ridiculous waste of time to try and do that. But by looking at all the different, you know, looking at all the different sources on all of this, you can maybe start piecing together a bit of a picture. And that's kind of why I love the volcanoes.

• 7:15Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  It's the constant threat, Liv. I mean, maybe, maybe it says something about who I am, but like, if you're living under the shadow of that, that's like an impending, and it's again, it's that thing that gives you, it gives you fertility in the soil. It gives you a chance to grow great crops and all these things that we know. But also it could destroy you any second, as we know, happened in various parts of history. So is that, does that make me a weirdo?

• 7:42Liv Albert?

  Not at all.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  I'm listening back to it now, thinking that makes me sound like a weirdo.

• 7:46Liv Albert?

  I mean, I grew up on the Ring of Fire, you know, like

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:51Liv Albert?

  I've, I have lived on it most of my life on and off. But, and to explain that to the listeners who don't know what that is, it's that really awesome ring that goes from all along the Pacific side of North America and some of South America, I imagine, loops right around to the cross, across the Pacific and just means that we have volcanoes and earthquakes. And one day specifically where I live, one earthquake is going to hit and it's all going to be over. And we all just kind of live with that knowledge. And every once in a while, an article comes out that like talks about it. And then people from the East Coast come at us like, oh my God, did you hear about this? Are you scared? And I'm like, this has

• 8:33Liv Albert?

  literally been a thing I have learned from a very young age, just like

• 8:37Speaker 02

  But isn't, but okay, I mean, that's, I'm worried for you. And I'm worried for you because I'm some, I live from obviously the UK and I live in Devon in the UK now. That, I mean, that, what can get us here? I mean, I might slip on a cow pat and that might hurt me. But basically the threat of the natural landscape here is not as great. And then I'm fascinated by the threat of volcanoes, whereas you're like, nah, you know, whatever, or volcanoes or earthquakes. So I kind of, it's, it's the unknown, is it? And that's what monsters, that's the thing about the monsters, right? Because so much of it is human psychology, fear of the unknown, fear of the other. So I'm perhaps more afraid of it than you might be because you, it's something you've been, well, I'm not saying you're like whoop-dee-doo,

• 9:21Speaker 02

  there's an earthquake, but you're like, maybe you can. Oh, maybe the tension isn't as much for you than it is for me. I don't know, because I'm.

• 9:30Liv Albert?

  I'm fascinated by them, but yeah, I'm not, I'm not afraid of them. But like, one of my favorite things, and we will get to monsters, but this is just fun now. But one of my favorite things is when somebody moves out here who's from like the east coast. Like I had a friend who moved out here and she's from Ontario and, and we're just chatting and she, at some point it came up, she's like, did you, we, we had an earthquake last night. Did you hear about that? Oh my God. And I was like, yeah, dude, we have like two a week. She was like, oh, like it absolutely blew her mind, but like where we live on the Pacific Northwest specifically, but I don't, I don't, at least the very least around my island, there are like one to two earthquakes a week. And they're tiny. You don't feel them, but they happen all the time.

• 10:14Liv Albert?

  And then you find out about that and it's like suddenly, oh my God, or another of my friends moved out here. And then there was an earthquake out across, or no, it was that volcanic eruption, I think in Tonga. And that sent a tsunami warning. She was like, oh my God, there's a tsunami. Are you close to the water? Are you friends? Like, again, those happen all the time. What I actually did was go down closer to the water so I could see the waves and they were boring. And I was disappointed and that's what happens when we get a tsunami warning when you are from here. And so anyway, these, these are the things I think you do adapt and, but that's probably deeply relevant to the ancient world too. Like, like having now been to Santorini and to Accretiri, which is, was like life achievement unlocked.

• 10:55Liv Albert?

  One of the coolest things about Accretiri, which is of course the, the, the Bronze Age town on, on Santorini that got preserved by the volcanic eruption of Thera, is that there were a ton of earthquakes there and that like destroyed the city and they just kept rebuilding it. And the final time, the big eruption, they were so prepared and they had done it all so many times that not a single body has been found. So they just handled it and they got off the island and they probably all went to Crete and, you know, became refugees down there, which happened with all around the Mediterranean at that time.

• 11:34Liv Albert?

  But like, we're talking 16th or 1600s BCE, like going on 4,000 years ago. And these people were so prepared for an earthquake, so prepared for a volcanic eruption that they, that nobody died. And there haven't even been found animal remains. So they also got like their livestock off the island in time. And granted, like not all has been, you know, excavated and everything, but the amount of that town that they have, that not a single bit of human or animal remains has been found from that volcanic eruption is incredible. So I think it does say to the psychology of people, like how much you do become used to it and you become prepared

• 12:16Liv Albert?

  and you just like, you just handle your shit and you just do what needs to be done. And whether it's like, there's a monster in your mountain or, or a volcano, like you just get it done.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love what you're saying, but I'm also just thinking about going, you know, now we're actually can talk about classics for a moment. You know, the, the fact, the fact that these monsters have to symbolize a kind of perpetual threat or they're kind, that's one of the elements, right, of, of being a monster, you know, like, I know that someone spoke before about Cohen's monster thesis before on here, but you know, like, one element of monster stories has to be that you can't, you can't vanquish it. It's not, you're not going to beat it forever. It's gonna, it's gonna come back again. It's gonna morph. Because otherwise you conquer that fear or that anxiety forever and you lose it.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  So when you're talking about things like, well, obviously we need to talk about the ones that relate to monsters, because not every single story about volcanoes or earthquakes will relate directly to a monster, even though a lot of them do. It has to be perpetual and that's where volcanoes are particularly found fascinating because they're visible on the landscape, they're always there and a lot of them are active. You know, I'm thinking particularly of the ones in Southern Italy, and then don't worry about it. I won't go too Roman on you before you freak out, but you know, like.

• 13:33Liv Albert?

  Sicily was Greek.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  But just because, just because there's so many rich sources about the volcanoes of Southern Italy,

• 13:43Speaker 02

  that, you know, that the, if, if we ever were, if human beings were genuinely what you said and they became okay with it, then I don't think these monster stories would exist as they do today. So I, I'm not saying, I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I think those are, those are interesting, different views. Cause you are right, that I'm sure on one hand ancients are living around these volcanoes, benefiting from them perhaps. They have to be okay with that, but at the same time, there is the perpetual threat. So in that already is that in the middle of all of that is the tension. And in fact, is the monster in some ways, because that is the exact tension between the two things. And it's, it's that where the anxiety is, right?

• 14:26Speaker 02

  It's like, but I kind of need you volcano and you kind of provide crops and all sorts of things to me. But also you can kill me and that in that middle ground is that, that tension. So, and to me, that's where the monster is, sort of in that little gap between the two things that you, that you highlighted and what I highlighted.

• 14:41Liv Albert?

  So. Well, but I also think there's a difference between being okay with something and being prepared for it. So I'm not saying that they wouldn't have been terrified and anxious. Like I think, I think both of our points are, are true of just like, there was all of that monstrous tension. Like there was the monster, but they also just had seen it happen before. And so they were just ready for it. It's almost like they were ready for Typhon to blow his lid, you know, and, and spew hot ash. It doesn't make it not a, a monster anxiety or a monster idea, just more that they were like, okay, this has happened before. Like I think it more just speaks to their resilience in the face of that, you know?

• 15:24Liv Albert?

  Like they just became prepared. They were smart enough to see the pattern ver, and still like have that anxiety to, to deal with. But they just were able to be like, okay, it's gonna happen again. Like let's get out kind of thing, you know?

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no, I get what you're saying. So are you trying to say that in some ways they almost utilize that knowledge in a pract, in a practical pragmatic way to also ensure their own safety?

• 15:48Liv Albert?

  Yeah, like, I don't think it means there wasn't a monstrous idea. Exactly. They just were able to also be like, we have to get off the island, you know?

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, I didn't mean to imply that they're like so silly that they're standing there going, oh. You know, they're still people with, with, with, well, they want to survive. It was survival instinct. So, you know, volcano goes off.

• 16:08Liv Albert?

  I don't know, Pompeii didn't do so well.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  What's that movie 2012 where, what's the actor called? Where he stands there and he watches Yellowstone go up, you know?

• 16:17Liv Albert?

  Oh yeah, John Cusack or no, although it's the one.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  No, what's he called?

• 16:21Liv Albert?

  Woody Harrelson, yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right. Thank you. Thank you. Um, because he's like, I want to see the show. And I always like to imagine that someone might have done that. I don't know, like Vesuvius, I don't know. Probably not the nicest thing to say, but you know, well, you just.

• 16:35Liv Albert?

  I mean, it feels like Pliny the Elder to me.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, yeah, maybe that's what it was all about.

• 16:42Liv Albert?

  I mean, because he was so interested in all of it. He just got too close.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  That's, I'm really annoyed that we've only just had this guy. So I was on Channel Four talking about Pliny the Elder, um, very recently. I really wish we'd had this chat before, because I'd just added a little bit at the end, which was like, oh yeah, here's all the archaeology, blah, blah, blah. But maybe he just fancied a little look at it. I wanted to get closer and it didn't work out well. Actually it's decent though, isn't it? Because it is, it's, it's, you just said that, you know, you wanted to run down to the shore to look at the tsunami going on and you were disappointed. There's something in that. But that is looking at the monstrous, isn't it as well? Like, you know, you're gazing at it in some ways because these spectacles are so, you know, there's that, it's that notion, you know, like when we look at psychology

• 17:29Speaker 02

  of pleasure and pain simultaneously being an element of the human psyche that we, we kind of need. And that's what is inherent in monster myth as well. So we want to look at the monstrous and it's painful and difficult, but we derive some kind of pleasure from that process as well. I mean, obviously that's why we watch horror movies and whatever else you're into.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  So that's part of this as well, isn't it? You know, that's kind of why you ran down to the sea to look at the tsunami. Cause I want to see this thing and it's, it's terrifying, but also, you know, I'm kind of enjoying that at the same time.

• 18:06Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's why we like disaster movies, right? Like I love the movie 2012. Is it a great film? No. Is it an entertaining piece of, you know, or entertainment, you know, that has all of these like disaster elements? Like, yeah, I love volcano movies, all that. Would I want to be in a volcano? Oh my God, no, those are horrifying, but I will watch the Tommy Lee Jones movie volcano forever.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too. I love, yeah. Dante's Peak, that's a winner.

• 18:35Liv Albert?

  Dante's Peak is great, but I really stand by volcano. I think there's something about Tommy Lee Jones versus, um, oh, what's his name? Oh, can't I think of him in Dante's Peak?

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Oh, Pierce Brosnan.

• 18:45Liv Albert?

  Thank you. I was gonna say James Bond, but that was also a dated reference. Yeah.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  If they don't know it, then they have to Google it. That's.

• 18:54Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Sorry, I'm an old millennial.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  But yeah, I haven't got any, I'm trying guys, but I've only just joined TikTok. I can't, I can't, I can't be trusted for these like really modern references. I'll do my best. I'm always ready to learn.

• 19:08Liv Albert?

  I, I mean, I, I'm trying to do TikTok right now and I have never felt older in my whole life.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  No way. I think I've got like, I mean, I doubled my followers in a day because I had like four and then I got like eight. So what I would suggest is starting low and then making big claims like that and then not, hoping no one checks it. But yeah, have we gone off on a tangent? Monsters.

• 19:32Liv Albert?

  But I mean, volcanoes are interesting in themselves. This episode is all about that. But so like, I'm curious how much of that feeds into Rome, because so much of, I mean, obviously what I know is Greek mythology. But so what's interesting to me is like, I know the, the only surviving source we have for say the Gigantomachy, which I think is a, is a really good volcanic specific story of monsters. But the only surviving source we have really is, is Pseudo Apollodorus. So that's a person who's like Greek, but writing during the Roman period. And so, and, and he really specifically sets the whole Gigantomachy in Sicily to explain the volcanic, you know, goings on down there.

• 20:16Liv Albert?

  But did Rome have their own stories of monsters and everything for, for that region?

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they do. Um, I mean, obviously, a lot of it is, is a continuation of what you see from the Greek tradition. Um, but yeah, there are, I mean, Roman authors talk about the same things regularly, but I think, I think the texts that interest me, there are plenty of, you know, Virgil will talk about it, you know, Ovid will, but I think that one of the areas that really interests me is a kind of the, the Roman, I guess, I wouldn't call it a trend, because that makes it sound too like it's purposeful or something, but the tendency perhaps of Romans to try and rationalize Greek mythology, and that's probably a bit of a new, new strand of interest in, in,

• 21:03Speaker 02

  in this. So, less of the, I guess, the, I guess, lyrical poetic exploration of mythology that you're going to get from the Greek tradition, although that is absolutely happening through Roman poets like Ovid, but at the same time, I think that people like Strabo or, or Pliny the Elder that are like rationalizing things, I find them particularly interesting. So, taking like the myth of Typhon or, you know, one, one person I haven't talked about is the Chimera, who is like, you, you asked me at the very beginning, who is my favorite monster?

• 21:35Liv Albert?

  Me too.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  My favorite, because what the hell is going on with that?

• 21:40Liv Albert?

  Exactly.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  With a goat on the back. Don't even get it, never will.

• 21:44Liv Albert?

  No.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  I wrote my master's dissertation on the Chimera and I still have not come across a reasonable explanation for why the chuffing hell there's a goat on his back.

• 21:53Liv Albert?

  They breathe like fire. It breathes fire.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  I know, but what I really like the idea of is someone just sitting there, just one day thinking, I know what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna just create this thing and then sort of make it go ancient viral. And look now, we're looking at it now, trying to analyze it all seriously, but it's just someone sitting on a rock in Athens or wherever, just making this up. Um, anyway, so you, I went off point again, but you know, so I think those are the texts that interest me the most, I think, because it's about how those texts, like Pliny the Elder, um, Strabo, how they try to,

• 22:31Speaker 02

  I guess, like, they're trying to own those myths in a different way by rationalizing them. And that, you know, there's a Roman tendency for that stuff anyway, right? You know, they, they kind of want to be logical, rational, a little bit more perhaps than the Greeks do in terms of mythology. I mean, that's a horrible generalization, so you know, let's not worry about that too much.

• 22:48Liv Albert?

  No, it's a

• 22:49Speaker 02

  Certainly in the volcanic stuff.

• 22:51Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I mean, if you have to label the two in that way, that it really does track, because so much is sort of basing itself on Greek myths, but you're right, like, is adding these rationalizing elements, but also even just somebody like Ovid, you know, in Metamorphoses, for instance, is like writing explicitly, like, you know, 90% Greek myths, but he's writing them so intentionally that it, it completely, like, is a departure from the original or the traditional Greek sources, which were not being written to tell a story. They were being written to like, you know, oral storytelling, I won't get, I won't, I always go off on those tangents, but, but just basically,

• 23:32Liv Albert?

  like, the differences between the oral tradition in Greece to, like, say, Ovid intentionally writing Metamorphoses is that sort of a bit of a rationalizing element as well, you know, just that kind of, the, the two ways in which they did it. Anyway, now I'm just rambling off, but, but yeah, that's really interesting.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  And I think that, you know, I think that's really important, like, like you say, I guess, I keep me on these, trend is not the right word, I guess a trait perhaps is a better word, of the Romans to, to want to do that a little bit more. I don't, I mean, why is a good question, maybe. I mean, it's not like the Greeks did not have logical thought or wanted to try and understand the word. I mean, what, what is philosophy if it isn't that? But I wonder why, you know, I guess, I know we, there's always this mad generalization, is about the Romans, they're the ones that build stuff and they're the engineers and they're all that, and then the Greeks are the thinkers. But I wonder, I wonder kind of why we see that trend towards, towards this rationalization in general when it comes to volcanic giants. I was just thinking, you asked me like specifics as well.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  So, um, Enceladus is like much more of a, almost like adopted a little bit more as, as the, as the, the giant, the, the kind of creature that's underneath, um, Etna.

• 24:46Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  And that's quite interesting, um, because, you know, kind of like, not like a transference away from, uh, Typhon, because he's also mentioned in other texts, but we have that there. And I wonder, like, you know, sometimes I feel like the Romans might take something and try to create their own narrative to make it more specifically Roman. But I don't think, I mean, you, you, you might know a bit more about this than I do, but I'm not sure that Enceladus actually takes much of a, a role in, in Greek mythology. I don't know how often, um,

• 25:18Liv Albert?

  No.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Do you know, do you know how often, like, he pops up and stuff? Because I, but you know, ultimately as well, it, would we say that he is monstrous? I mean, is, as far as I'm aware, is he not just, you know, kind of a giant? Um,

• 25:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Is he a monster then? Is a giant a monster? Because I wouldn't, I guess for me, a monster is something, I always want to chuck a snake in there or something, but you know, it, it feels like it's a composite of something else. I don't know, like, is just a giant with no extra features a monster? I mean, that's a good question, I don't know. I've asked five questions, I'll be quiet now.

• 25:52Liv Albert?

  No, I love it. I, I was curious and no, you're right. He doesn't appear before, like, Calymachus. So, Calymachus is Hellenistic, but, um, he obviously would have had like a much closer relationship with the Romans just existing than, than anyone before. So, yeah, there's no one earlier than Calymachus, which is fascinating, because he's so late. But it's like,

• 26:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, again, this is just more evidence for this guy sitting on the rock that's going, I'm gonna invent something up.

• 26:27Liv Albert?

  I don't think it's Typhon under there, like, I think it's a new guy. Let's invent a new one.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  What's the etymology? Let's, if you don't know, I don't know, how's your Greek? I mean, I don't have a lot of Greek, so my Greek's not great.

• 26:39Liv Albert?

  No, I don't have any Greek, but, no, theo.com is my life source and it

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, ditto. Don't worry.

• 26:45Liv Albert?

  Yeah. It says, it, that the translation is sound the charge, which is interesting. To urge on, it's from the Greek

• 26:54Speaker 02

  I'm a bit of a fan, I'm a bit of a fan of, um, looking at the etymology. I, I like to make that kind of utterly unsubstantiated claim. Don't worry, anyone listening to me, I'm very clear when it's something that I can't really prove academically, so don't, don't, don't think, oh my God, has she just like lied to me forever?

• 27:10Liv Albert?

  I'm not.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  But, yeah, everyone's thinking, what is that girl's podcast? I'm not going there, I'm gonna learn nothing. But, the, the one I've got, which is kind of my favorite thing at the moment, is, tell me what you think about this, I'm gonna run it by you, Liv, tell me if this sounds good. The Cyclops, another creature that we would associate with volcanoes for all sorts of reasons, but largely as, uh, you know, kind of metalworkers related to Hephaestus in the forge of the volcano, that's kind of their tradition. But Cyclops means kind of like, you know, orb-eyed, circle-eyed in the etymology. So, to me, I decided that maybe this is, uh, because that's a very odd feature of, of, of a, anything in myth to have, like, just one eye, uh, in the middle of the forehead.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  So, I thought about this, I decided that perhaps it's something to do with the fact that when you look at a volcano, you have, uh, the shape of volcanoes is, you know, very circular crater kind of looking thing, and it could look like an eye on the landscape. I totally get that they're not flying around getting aerial views of this before anyone starts, before the angry Twitter people come go, uh, Jasmine, they're not flying around on like EasyJet looking over, I know that, but if you've ever stood, which I have, um, on a crater of volcanic, you can perceive that shape from the ground, so it's not completely insane. But, I mean, what do you reckon? I mean, it sounds nice, doesn't it? Which is usually a sign that it's not true.

• 28:37Liv Albert?

  Yeah, so I have some insights into this.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Oh, do you? Okay, because I've made that up. Maybe I'm not as well read as you, go ahead.

• 28:44Liv Albert?

  No, so I, I, I don't, I think maybe it's the opposite of what you're saying. So, my fun fact, uh, is that in traditional Greek sources, so, you know, pre, I would say, like, classical Greece and earlier, Hephaestus is not associated with volcanoes.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:08Liv Albert?

  He's just like a metalworker. So, he doesn't actually have that connection.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Are the cyclopes with him, though?

• 29:14Liv Albert?

  They are, and not in volcanoes.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  So, where, where are they then?

• 29:18Liv Albert?

  They, they just have a forge. So, it's probably like in the earth, it might have some kind of, like, uh, like more cave-like ideas, and maybe there's even some, like, uh, uh, other associations. And maybe it's also, you know, missing sources or whatever. But in terms of ancient Greek, classical and archaic and beyond sources, they don't have the volcanic associations. He's not a god of volcanoes until later. And I think that that's because he's Vulcan. And so, I actually think that the association with the volcanoes came from Rome in a way that more often than not, you know, Rome gets their associations from Greek, but in this case, the opposite.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  That's interesting.

• 30:02Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm. I love it because I, I like the volcano stuff. I love. So the Hephysus connection was a thing that I forget when I learned this, but it's really interesting.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  No, that sounds really cool. I'd love to kind of interrogate the sources a bit more as well to look at.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  When they talk about, I mean, this is getting very nitty gritty now. So when the sources that you just mentioned speak about the forge, what is the vocabulary around that? And how explicitly is it not volcanic as well? You know, because I know what is a forge? I mean, you think about a forge, it's a hot place. There's molten metal and things, whatever. So while they might not explicitly name it, so I've got a few points, they might not explicitly name it, but insinuate it. I mean, we'd have to detailed literary analysis to know if that's true. By the way, if anyone knows this and they're listening going, I know the answer, then tell us.

• 30:51Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  But you know, this would be the, the method to investigate this, right? You go and do that. Look at the kind of analysis of it. Two, the dating of the text that you mentioned will be really interesting as well. Cause I know you've mentioned a broad period there, but could it be also that we are dealing with like, you know, post Santorini eruption, I imagine. And, and then pre kind of big um, Etnan eruptions and stuff. So we're in a bit of a time period where people perhaps don't have as much experience, personal experience of the volcanoes. Maybe, maybe it's. So, so, so then, you know, and also the third point, I guess, I mean, that's just an interesting point rather than any particular evaluation. But I guess the third point as well is um, the thing that I know you love about myths, I do too, is kind of, you know,

• 31:35Speaker 02

  new ownership of myths and adaptation of myths throughout the classical period. So um, none, none being an invalid viewpoint really, because even if there is a canon of like, this is what normally happens. This is the actual generic story of this person. We know that the great thing about myth is you play with it, you mold it. It's like a piece of clay. You can make it what you like. That's what made it cool and fun. And that, that's what also as, you know, I guess classicist age of stories, whatever you call yourself, you, you kind of are able then to glean information from that because you're looking at cultural responses, right? So that's enough points, but you get my idea.

• 32:12Liv Albert?

  Yeah. No, I think that, I think it is all of that. So ultimately, I think a huge key part to this too, is that Greece broadly is not very volcanic. Italy, southern Italy is super volcanic and the, the little portion of the Cyclades that are volcanic are volcanic. But in terms of volcanic eruptions that I know of, and this isn't something I've done a whole ton of research about, but um, Thera erupted, but Thera erupted in late Bronze Age, right?

• 32:43Speaker 02

  So it's like, I think it's about 1600, isn't it?

• 32:46Liv Albert?

  It, it is. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's 17th century sometime. So Thera erupted sometime around then. And then we have the, you know, quote unquote Bronze Age decline, that, that being not a decline, but a change. But essentially there's like an enormous gap of time, right? Before the written works that survive to us today are actually being put to paper, quote unquote. Um, and so between that and the just general lack of volcanic activity in Greece, like I think that we're talking about the time period, and this is again, generalization. I don't know when Sicily became heavily Greek,

• 33:28Liv Albert?

  but I do think it's like not early Iron Age, early Archaic, or like later, early Iron Age, early Archaic, you know? So it's not the time when say, Hesiod's work are coming around and Homer and all of that. And so we don't get these early associations with volcanoes because I don't think they had a lot of volcanic goings on. And so they didn't have like a reference point for say, Hephysus and the Cyclops being in a volcano, because they didn't have volcanoes. Like mainland Greece is not very volcanic at all, right? And so unless you're having these like really close associations with Thera or you're seeing it, but like, I don't, yeah, because we're, because Thera is also pretty far off too. So it's just like,

• 34:12Liv Albert?

  it's sort of fascinating to see it that way. And then you can see when Sicily becomes heavily Greek, then you're getting these new associations with volcanoes because they're seeing volcanoes. And so that's might be around the time when this kind of conflation, like I actually think like Vulcan and Hephysus weren't always the same, quote unquote, I'm doing a lot of that, the same god, you know? Like I think that they probably had a volcanic god. And then he ends up being associated with Hephysus more closely, like the, yeah, the volcano stuff to me seems to come from not necessarily Rome explicitly, but from that,

• 34:51Liv Albert?

  that like growth of the Greek world into Italy, and then maybe the, the close relationship they developed with Rome.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I think, I think, I mean, there's, there's obvious points to that because you know, like we said, we've said already that the Romans are going to be more invested, I guess, in volcanoes because they live amongst them a little bit more. But then actually what's interesting is the Chimera, for example, um, we, we have rationalization about that. Again, we're not talking about that being um, in the, in the Greek period, that's in the Roman period. But that's really interesting because there's um, some, some marks on the landscape that really sound like they've interpreted those. So it's like Pliny the Elder and Strabo that mention this, and they mention um, an area in Lycia, so you know, in Turkey,

• 35:41Speaker 02

  that is called Mount Chimera or something like around that. Um, and you know, Pliny tells us that it sends forth flames at night and things like that. So, but there as well is, you know, it's um, it's near the city state of Hephystium. So there's a connection even there to it. Um, and the mountain range being on fire and stuff like that. But, but you know, like this is obviously much later again. So you, I'm, you're making the point that you're, you're making the same point really, I think. But also it's interesting that you're seeing, they're seeing things on the landscape because it's this region now, the, the Inartish region in Turkey. Now, not to, I'm, I'm sorry if I've mispronounced Turkish there too, to anyone that speaks Turkish, but

• 36:22Speaker 02

  it's this region that is like, it's like burnt and charred and it has these methane like flames that come up. And it's kind of crazy. If you Google it, it's really crazy. And that's, that's the landscape they're trying to describe. And that's where the Chimera was supposed to have been like, you know, kind of besieging things and marauding and doing the weird fire thing out of the goat's mouth. Um, so you get that as well in Turkey. So I think that there is, there is an association. It's not just Greece and Rome, but although, you know, I mean, obviously we can't even get into wider mythologies where there is so much about this in all sorts of different ancient cultures. But um, you're getting that a little bit in that region too. So

• 37:02Speaker 02

  I don't know, it's just interesting. Yeah. And Strabo, Strabo says it's just, he doesn't actually say it's fiery, but I'll just take it anyway. But he, I'll just, I'll claim that for the team. I think he says that the Ma- Mount Chimera is just like a ravine, but it is alluding to the mountainous nature of it. But um, again, I couldn't go off one of my crazy theories about why that might be the case, but I think, I think we'll stop there with that.

• 37:26Liv Albert?

  Well, now I'm fascinated. I love, I love the Chimera so much. So now I'm just looking into that area. Like I know that the whole story of the Chimera comes from the east, which I think has always been super cool. Um, I think the the Chimera too, though, like even based on this, it seems like they're less associating with a volcano and more like the volcanic happenings within the earth, but something that they're seeing and doesn't look like the same volcanoes they're used to. So they're more associating it with like a Chimera's breath in an interesting way, or at least in the, like the more ancient sourcing. Cause I'm also, I'm curious like when there's a temple of Hephysus.

• 38:08Liv Albert?

  And I'm curious when it was built, but I can't find that. But also when you first said it, I was wondering, but it seems like there is that Hephysus specific reference, but I wonder if it's coming from like the Hellenistic period.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you made that point that this is probably a later addition or certainly kind of, you know, collab, shall we call it?

• 38:26Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  Between these things. And I think, you know, that, I think that's probably, that's an interesting take on it. So.

• 38:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I'm just so curious now too.

• 38:48Liv Albert?

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• 39:28Liv Albert?

  basically every day, because that's the thing. They have really great basics, like they have really great things that you can wear with so many other things. Just the options are endless. And as the weather gets colder, like all the sweaters in my closet, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe from warm, responsibly sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry that adds the perfect finishing touch. And of course, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And then if we haven't learned

• 40:08Liv Albert?

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• 40:40Speaker 01

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• 41:30Speaker 02

  But anyway, the monsters are just cool. I mean, they're just cool. I mean, I've always loved them. And it's not just volcanoes that make them cool. It's other stuff. So I'm, I'm big into, I mean, it's, let's, let's just, let's just get this spoiler alert straight away out there. I'm going to be talking about human psychology and psychologists specifically and their take on it. And I'm doing it. I, I, I fully accept that very little of it is useful to us today, but I find it hilarious. I find it hilarious to look at what Freud says about monsters.

• 42:01Liv Albert?

  Oh, God. Okay. Yep.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  You get me, because it's, it's so fun. Just anyone listening, do not take any of this as real, essentially.

• 42:11Liv Albert?

  No.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  But have you ever read his essay Medusa's Head?

• 42:14Liv Albert?

  Oh, God, no, but I've heard of it.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's awesome. I mean, it's,

• 42:20Liv Albert?

  It's all about like, he's got all that, that nonsensical ideas of her snake hair being like, fear of castration or something like that, right?

• 42:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, you got, you got it. You got it. Yes. It's like, so, I mean, he wrote it in nineteen twenty-two. I think it's actually published after he died, but whatever. Um, and it's just complete, I just don't know what he's thinking. He's definitely a man sitting on a rock making stuff up for sure. Um, but yeah, you, you're right. I mean, it's all about what is the symbolism of Medusa, the snakes? And, you know, apparently it's a young boy that sees his mother's pubic hair.

• 42:57Liv Albert?

  Oh, my God.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's the snakes, it's the snakes and, and all sorts of different symbolism of that. But essentially, it's this kind of like, shock, horror feeling that, oh, my God, what if I didn't have a penis? And it got, and then obviously the, the heading of Medusa is the castration. And you know, you just, you kind of like, you know, it's just, you just can't follow it. It's completely insane. It's like this, I get like kind of odd dream that you think what's going, not nightmare of what's going on. So, yes, no, I'm not saying we can take anything from that. Um, but I kind of, I kind of find it in terms of like classical reception, maybe like looking at, um, what's going on with these psychologists?

• 43:42Speaker 02

  And I think, you know, okay, that's the maddest example I've got. But actually, that, you know, there are, there are a few things you can take from psychologists. And I think, you know, the, the biggest caveat with any of this is that they are often scientists. They might be anthropologists or psychologists. And they love like essentially a kind of unifying theory. So whereas we're like, you know, you spent a whole career deep diving into the nuances of myth. And you're going to continue doing that. You could, you could go till you die. Because there's so much nuance and you can't just go, oh, well, all Romans were this, bye, because what's the point of that, you know? So that's what I find really interesting about this, you know, that, that, that's what the caveat is with these, these psychologists, because they want to do that. They want these theories that go, oh, all cultures do this.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  And all monsters mean this in mythology. But then there are some interesting, this is some interesting stuff about, and actually Aristotle says it about how monstrous myths need to happen. Because we need a way of purging our fears to avoid us having antisocial tendencies. And I thought you would love this because it's going back to very early societies. And the need for human beings to conform. And, and come together in a, in a way of the, you know, kind of, I guess, a manner of how we behave as a civilization, as a group of people, as an organisation, almost of people. So we need these monsters as a way to, to purge the fears in our stories, in whatever we want to do.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  So that we don't take them out on each other. And I don't know what you think to that. And there's a few, Aristotle says it, but there, you know, there's a few, I guess, little bits and pieces throughout time, different psychologies, either modern or ancient, the kind of, not ancient psychologists, but ancient thinkers. That say that sort of thing. But I don't know what your, what your take on that is. What do you think about that as sort of tension of early society?

• 45:34Liv Albert?

  Yeah, it, it makes sense. It certainly makes more sense than Freud's nonsensical musings about Greek myth.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  But it's fun.

• 45:42Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, all I could think of when you were first saying that is, is the Oedipus of it all.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:49Liv Albert?

  Because like, I, I just, I'll never get over the fact that like, the entire modern understanding of like the Oedipus myth and Oedipal complex or whatever, based around Freud. Is like based on a willful misunderstanding of that play. It's like, it's like you had to read the play and be like, okay, cool. I'm going to completely invent a new, a new plot point. And I'm going to base an entire theory on that plot point, which is that somehow Oedipus knew that it was his mother. And I, anyway.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  It's just, what I don't get Liv is like, how did he get any airtime Freud? Why didn't someone go, all right, off you go? I heard we had to say, no, thanks. Like, what is it about this blood? You, you know, you know, it's the time when these, you know, these kind of old white men get this.

• 46:35Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  You can say what you want and we're going to say it's fine. Like,

• 46:38Liv Albert?

  Yep.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  I, I don't, I don't get it. I don't get it. Cause you just, I, I, we all know, like, you know, evidence-based things. And I know, I guess highly, I mean, look, I'm not a psychologist. I understand it's theoretical and these are takes on perhaps, um, expressions of human behaviour. But come on. I just don't get how that guy got any airtime.

• 46:57Liv Albert?

  No.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  So I get you. Yeah. The Oedipus thing's mad as well. Completely mad.

• 47:01Liv Albert?

  Oh, and then there's like the, there's an electra complex too, right? Forget what, that one's just like murdering your mother or something. Lord. Anyway, he, I think he just had a lot of issues with his parents and he took them all out on us. For the next hundred years.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  And he decided to use classics as much as possible.

• 47:18Liv Albert?

  Exactly. He just decided to be like, a hundred years from now, people are going to be really mad at me for the bullshit that I'm spewing. Ha, ha, enjoy.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. But you know what I mean? Do you like looking at things like that? That are obviously a load of rubbish, but looking at what they really kind of tell us about. I guess the continuing relationship. Well, if we're going back to monsters for a minute, like, you know, kind of how, how interactions with monsters are evolving over time. So here, here we have that trend in the twentieth century. Of looking at monsters of mythology, world mythology, not just classical. And like trying to reevaluate them for a new take on it and what they express about who we are and the monster in us. I mean, just even if the stuff is mad, even if the conclusions are mad, that on its own as a movement is interesting to look at. And how it's impacted us today.

• 48:07Liv Albert?

  Yeah, it just makes me think of Medusa today, right? And like all the different forms that she takes in our society today. Like there, there is such, such a juxtaposition of like, angry dudes on the internet who see Medusa as some kind of like, evil, like force that had to be destroyed in order to, you know, alleviate some kind of pressure on the world, which is basically a paraphrase of some nonsense thing that a guy once spewed to me on Twitter. And then we have her, yeah, yeah, they're ridiculous. And then that's compared to angry white men.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  So why they're not listening to this stuff? They're not coming from us. No, it's all good.

• 48:51Liv Albert?

  No. Uh, but yeah, but compared to the, the Medusa of like the feminist movement or the Me Too movement and now Medusa. Medusa has now come to symbolize a survivor of assault to such a degree that like, so I have a Medusa tattoo because I love Medusa and I love classics and obviously.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Can I see it or is it somewhere where I'm not allowed to see it?

• 49:11Liv Albert?

  No, it's on my thigh. Uh, but it's, it's, yeah, we're not doing that today, but no, it's, it's enormous.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Kind of podcast.

• 49:21Liv Albert?

  But I posted pictures of it fairly recently, um, on, on Instagram and, and I post, I posted two different pictures and two different times, somebody commented and made an assumption that because I have a Medusa tattoo, I am telling the world that I'm a survivor of assault. And like, I'm not saying that I haven't had my own experiences. As women, we basically all have our own, you know, varied experiences in different ways, but, but like, that's not why I got a Medusa tattoo. I got a Medusa tattoo because I fucking love Medusa. But she has become this emblem to such a degree that like, and even somebody actually recently messaged me and said like, hey, it was a guy and he was like, hey,

• 50:06Liv Albert?

  I, I want to get a Medusa tattoo, but my friend said that would be disrespectful because it symbolizes survival of assault. And it's just, to me, it's like, I think that's great that she symbolizes that for people. I think it's bad if we are making assumptions that like, that is now all she symbolizes.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I agree. I agree.

• 50:28Liv Albert?

  Yeah. She's on like full circle. And to be like, that's it.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's really interesting this actually, because I'm, I'm working on something at the moment that is about, um, essentially,

• 50:43Speaker 02

  the unheard voices of women that have experienced, um, any kind of.

• 50:47Liv Albert?

  Wait, I saw your post on Twitter.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Sexual abuse. Yeah. So this is, this is something I'm working on. It's something, I'm new to it. So this, I'm, I mean, I'm not new to it in life. Um, as in I, I know of, of, of this in my life, but, um, I'm not somebody that I can say has experienced it directly in the same way that you, you mentioned earlier on. But, you know, I think, I think that we, we owe it to these mythical figures to get to, get to the nuance of them. So if that, if that means something to someone, then great. You have, you own it as you wish. Take that symbol, use it as you wish. But I think it's important that we have that like plurality of, of her story too. So, you know, if a guy wants to get Medusa tattooed on him

• 51:29Speaker 02

  and his intentions are not ill, you know, that he's doing that for reasons like, no, like, is the reasons are good. Like I, I, I, I, I love her. I find the story interesting, whatever it might be. Fine. And I, I do think, you know, that in some way,

• 51:44Speaker 02

  this is a difficult thing to say because, you know, I'm pro anything that makes anyone feel better, empowered, especially women. That's what I'm all about. But at the same time.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  You don't want to take it so far that it almost becomes a weaponized type thing. Weaponized is a very strong word to use, but I guess, I guess something like that. And also like the whole reading into you getting that like, that's just no one's business anyway. That's up to you. Like you can do what you want. That's your body. If you want to get Medusa like to. And don't infer that it's no one's business what meaning that has. That's your personal choice to do that. That's your business. Like, no one should be commenting. I mean, unless they're commenting, oh, that's wicked. Uh, I guess, I guess, you know, there's nothing, there's nothing you should, I mean wicked in, we say wicked a lot. That means really good. Does that mean, okay, good. No, like wicked, like wicked witch. I'm like, oh my god, I just said something awful in Canada. And all the Canadians are going to cancel me.

• 52:37Liv Albert?

  That is in North America too. You're good.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, sweet. Um, yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah, I mean, it's fascinating what you say. I mean, this is what the, this is another reason going back to like full circle or this on fire like monsters because I do think although we can draw out these, these like general ideas, like we talked about volcanoes, or we can talk about elements of the human psyche that we see in these stories. But really what you personally find monstrous is different to everyone else. And what I personally find monstrous is different to everyone else. And there might be some overlap. We did a Venn diagram or whatever it's called. What is that? The one with the overlap? I think that's the one, isn't it?

• 53:15Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Um, we will find some overlap. And I think, you know, that's where we as, I guess, um, ancient historians or whatever you like to call yourself. It's in the overlap that we analyze, I think. But just, just being a person.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Monsters mean something to me. Like I've got a thing, the thing that I'm terrified of is aliens. So like, but then a friend of mine's like, I can't watch a ghost film. Like she'll just run and she can't cope. She'll like start shaking because that's her thing. You know, um, I still don't understand the people that like squid game, like blood and gore. I can't get to that. Are you one of them?

• 53:49Liv Albert?

  Yeah. No, no, no.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  I mean, that's that, but do you get my, but that's, I mean, I don't know. I don't, I mean, I, I'm questioning why they're watching in the first place. But if they're watching it for the horror bit that we, you know, like they, they like to be afraid of it.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  I don't know. I find that, that gore, that sore, all that kind of horror. I find that difficult. But, you know, that's why I like monsters. They're, they're adaptable. And I think, you know, they're shape shift and they do different things in different times to different people in different contexts. And that's why there'll always be our monsters, even if they might be ancient, because they're just going to be ours. Because like you say, Medusa is on your thigh right now. And that is some, some way that like, not literally if anyone's freaking out, but but you, you've got that for your reasons and that, that speaks to you in some way. So you know, you've already taken something mythological. Monstrous myth and, and made it your own, which I think is how we should be doing it.

• 54:42Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, she's, she's my monster in that respect. But if we're, you know, like monsters generally, I, I've always loved them. Chimera is, I think probably my favorite in terms of the, just like the more traditional monsters. I do love the Hecatonchires because

• 55:01Speaker 02

  Is it because you can say it?

• 55:03Liv Albert?

  Yes. Yes. I love the word.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  How many years did it take you to be able to say it? Cause I'm still working on it.

• 55:09Liv Albert?

  Oh, no, that one came naturally. No, I, it's one of the words I explicitly remember from my undergrad mythology courses in a way that like, I don't remember many. Like I think, I remember, I remember Hecatonchires. I remember that my prof pronounced it Uranus to make it not sound like the planet Uranus. In North America, we like to say that Uranus works too. Anything, you know, and make it sound more serious, all these different things. But yeah, no, Hecatonchires are, I just like imagining them. I like to think, okay, you're really, really thought up a creature that is sometimes volcanic as well, um, that, that really just had a hundred hands and 50 heads. That makes sense, right? Yeah.

• 55:55Liv Albert?

  And it just like, really? Okay. Somebody just thought that up and just said, yeah, there's, there are three of them.

• 56:01Speaker 02

  Well, we're back to the guy, we're back, we're back to the guy on the rock, aren't we?

• 56:05Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean, I think, I, I, I can never, anytime anyone asks me my favorite, the, the only other favorite I've got is the Minotaur.

• 56:17Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 56:17Speaker 02

  So like, I mean, I just love, I just love, obviously, uh, the Chimera, but I do also really love the Minotaur. And in fact, I'm working on a novel, uh, now about the Minotaur.

• 56:27Liv Albert?

  Hmm.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  But what's interesting about the Minotaur is we don't have that much stuff written about him. There's so much about your favorite guy Theseus.

• 56:40Liv Albert?

  Oh, my love.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  You know how much you're into him before you pretend. Come on now. Um, I think he protests so much. It's actually got a massive crush on him. That's what I think what's going on.

• 56:51Liv Albert?

  I think it's my love of Athens swimming through. That's what I'll, I'll admit that.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you know, let's say, obviously I get why, you know, it's very, I get why we hear so much about Theseus and not the Minotaur. Um, and he always just seems like this, it, it saddens me, his story, because he always just seems like this kind of footnote um, in stories and he never really gets his, his own agency, which is what I'm trying to change. But he fascinates me. I mean, there is a little bit here about him maybe being, uh, the description of, of earthquakes and his bellowings in the, uh, in the labyrinth. Um, you know, I like, I like that. I do like that. But you know, I think that there's not necessarily prolific, the number of people that might describe him in that way. But I just, I find it interesting because I think he's quite Frankenstein-esque, if I'm going to put it that way.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Like he's, he's this, he's one of the few monsters that we, and there are obviously other examples, of course, but I'm just saying one, one of uh, I guess a select number of monsters that have human ancestry as well as beast-like ancestry.

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• 59:37Speaker 02

  Um, I just find that really interesting.

• 59:41Liv Albert?

  What I find so fascinating about him and his human ancestry is that while he's one of a few that has it, as far as I know, he is the singular ancient monster that like one is singular in that way with human attributes, but also specifically is top half animal, bottom half human.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Liv Albert?

  And I think that makes him really special because he has all the monstrous qualities of his top half, but also that human bit. So he's so different from like a centaur or something, you know, in that way and was created so specifically.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  For sure. And someone asked me, in fact, it was my husband. He asked me the other day, he said, are centaurs monsters? If not, why not? And I was just like, that's, that's a great question because they are animal, human hybrids, you know, they, they, they're a bit naughty, uh, you can say. Um, and I was like, well, what elements do they not have? They're, you know, I guess it's this kind of perpetual threat that, that we kind of connect to the monster.

• 1:00:47Liv Albert?

  They were pretty threatening though, because other than Chiron.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  They were, they were.

• 1:00:52Liv Albert?

  Yeah, they were, they were violent and they came through. They almost kind of represent like marauders in a way, you know, like tearing through town.

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  But we don't consider them monsters. We don't put them with monsters, do we? As, as the, as the, within the genre. Well, you're right. This is why I think it's really interesting because why do we not? I mean, again, someone, there will be some academic work out there, some, some secondary source work that's on this. So I just don't know. But because, you know, their character, they do display, as you say, the marauding nature, the threat, the kind of oddity about their appearance, the animal, human hybrid like vibes are going on. But they're not, are they? And actually, like you say, you have the, the connection with Chiron and Wisdom sometimes, you know, so it's a bit of a weird one, isn't it?

• 1:01:41Liv Albert?

  Um, well, uh, the, the interesting thing about the, the one bit of the knowledge aspect, the Chiron of it all, is that he, while he is a centaur, is typically depicted as a, like, it's almost as if he's a different type of centaur. Like he has a different birth story than the others. He is not born of the same way. And in art, he's often depicted, have you seen these, where he's not a traditional centaur? He is like full man with a horse's backside coming off of his back?

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Do you know what? I'm not going to lie. I'm not an expert on the centaurs. It's not something I've looked at, but that is definitely getting Googled in a minute.

• 1:02:22Liv Albert?

  Yeah, because, so it's crazy. It's only Chiron. And so they really often, in both art and text sources, make a real point of separating him from the others. The others are monstrous, the others attack, the others war with Heracles, like all those different things. The others are bad and Chiron is good. And so they give him, yeah, a different birth story, a different like storyline broadly, and specifically in art, often, not always, but often, he's full man. To the point where the first thing you are going to wonder if you are a real human, when you look at this art, is does that mean he has two penises? And I think the answer is yes. Yeah.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  Let's just say it's yes, anyway. It's a bit like when I was making up stuff about the Cyclops and his eye, like, let's just. Sometimes it's fun just to make whatever kind of conclusion you fancy. And as long as you're explicit about that, that's fine.

• 1:03:16Liv Albert?

  And I think your Cyclops thing still almost works. Like, I think what it is, is more so, I think it came later, but I think they probably still were like seeing craters and then maybe connecting with the Cyclops in that way, you know, like, it can still work even if it didn't start it, but rather came after the fact. Like, all of these things are still working like in such close relation to each other because everything is developing over so many hundreds and then thousands of years of, of like this evolution, but also just, you know, just the growing nature of these people and the way they changed over all that time, like.

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  It's for sure. But that's what makes it so cool. Yeah, exactly. It makes it so cool because it's Yeah. Like, you'll never pin it, like the monster, you'll never really pin it down. We're never, we're never gonna just get to the end of, that is the definite answer for ever and ever and ever about this particular topic theme, whatever my monster, whatever you want. It's always gonna be like, oh, another idea, another idea. And I that's what's, I mean, I guess, you know, I guess all subjects are like, let's be real, you know, even scientists, it's like, this is the point that we're at now. And then we evolve, we research, we do things and we, we go further, we go further. So, you know, but, you know, I do love that about, about monsters. And what I really enjoy is, you know, as we, as we progress as people, even today, things that we're interested today, you get these new revisions and

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  and kind of, you know, interpretations of things. Obviously, I know you've spoken to a number of excellent authors that are working in the field where they're, you know, they're, they're doing their own storytelling, they're taking this mythological canon and they're turning the, turning it into their own thing. But I love that. So it's, to me, it's so poetic because that's what the Greeks did and that's what people are doing again. And I, I love that. I love that because anyone, you know, your work as well, anything, anytime you're taking mythical inspiration and making it your own, you are doing what the Greeks intended because that's what people did. That's what it was about. And I, I think if anyone ever, you know, sometimes these things come with a fire, don't they? Because, oh, well, you haven't really represented it properly. And

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  oh, there's all this nuance that you haven't included. I'm like, no, stuff that because this is actually what the Greeks want you to do. So I'm just gonna do what they want. You know, you're not saying, here's everything ever written on a topic, you know, like, you know, it's not 100% factually, there's a bit of artistic license, but I love that. I love that. And I think that's how we should be doing myth in general.

• 1:05:37Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah, just, you know, taking it and making it our own. Yeah. Well, and my favorite thing to do these days, and thankfully my listeners seem to like it also, is like, to also often revisit myths that I covered five years ago on the show because just like mythology, like I have changed a lot in five years and my ability to research and provide that nuance and and all these different things like has grown so much. And so like, they really are completely timeless, you know, like you're always gonna discover something new, you're always gonna find some new contextual, like historical thing that adds layers to it. Like, the more I understand the ancient world, the more I understand the mythology in a way that makes me so

• 1:06:21Liv Albert?

  fucking happy, just like all the time, because the, every time I learn something new, it, you know, something opens up in my mind. I just recently spoke to Stephanie McCarter on the show, who's just translated Ovid Metamorphoses. So she's like the first woman to translate it in 60 years. And she went into it with like feminist ideals and looking at, you know, what other translators have and have not done. And, oh, it's just so exciting, you know, and, and even just talking to somebody about that process of translation opens up so many new avenues of thought and so many new ways to understand a source. And it's just like,

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:57Liv Albert?

  Yeah, it's just, it's endless.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, even in my work in the media, you know, like, this is my voice that people hopefully still listen to, I haven't like turned off by now, but this is my voice, my take. It's from my personal background, you know, I grew up in a very poor part of London. We didn't have anything, single parent, I'm mixed race. I say those things not for any particular reason, except for those are the things that feed into who I am partly. And all I ever do with classics, this is my voice, my take, this is my view of something, this is why, you know, I have this view because it's, I'm bringing my experience right to it. And my aim, and I know it's the same as yours, is in our subject, just getting plurality of voices, getting as many people

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  from different backgrounds, speaking about it, so that we represent the classical world in a way that others can understand it. That's what we're all about, right? It's, this is, I'm speaking to people. Some people listening to this are gonna be thinking, not my cup of tea, and other people are gonna be thinking, this really speaks to me, the way that this person is speaking about classics is making me feel like I wanna do more. And that's what we're trying to do, I think. Um, so it, and also in academic and scholarly work, when these people are bringing, bringing their take on it is so valuable. Because no one is saying, here is the final answer, as we said at the beginning of this chat, you know, this isn't the final take on this, but this is something that I'm bringing to the table now in this present moment with my experience, with my, whatever it might be.

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  Uh, and hopefully it contributes to a wider range of, of, of voices in this subject. So anyone that's doing that and beating their own drum, I mean, that's just awesome. And I hope that people are enjoying it. And they obviously are, Liv, because you're doing a great job with the podcast. So, there you go.

• 1:08:41Liv Albert?

  Well, thank you.

• 1:08:44Liv Albert?

  I think my show and yours and, and all of that really proves how much people do wanna learn about this stuff. And, and one thing I've learned over these years is like, they don't just wanna hear the stories, you know, they, they do, they are interested in learning the more nitty gritty side, the the like, like, you know, the, the really nerdy stuff that's underneath that you don't really learn as just like a regular person interested in this topic. And that's why I like talking to people like you and like all the other academics that I've had on my show is always so exciting because it brings this whole new realm of myth and the ancient Mediterranean

• 1:09:22Liv Albert?

  to people who, who aren't studying it. And so therefore like really have no access point. I mean, I barely have an access point into the academic side. And I've been doing this for five years and I'm like, a name in it. And I'm still like, I don't know where to begin learning about the more academic aspects, the more like, you know, little pieces that don't make it out into the wider world because they're only published in books that are like a hundred bucks and intended for university libraries only.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. Yeah.

• 1:09:49Liv Albert?

  So getting that stuff out there is just, it's so important, but also like so valuable and people legitimately wanna learn it. And I think that is the coolest thing.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we should just thank everyone that listens to you or me.

• 1:10:00Liv Albert?

  I mean,

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  And continue to support it, right? Because thank God for them. Uh, we need you. You're part, you're such a big part of this.

• 1:10:08Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And also keep me with the career thing.

• 1:10:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, I mean, that's why, like with my, with my podcast, the whole, the whole, I guess, content of it, not content, what's the word I want? The whole, um,

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  format, that's the word. Oh my God, what a long day. The whole format of my podcast. It is, I just think from somebody that came at it as an adult, I started classics at 18. So I was like, I don't know what this is. And I was like, a random choice, go do that. Loved it, stayed there. The thing that I now have, and in my 22 years in the subject in all sorts of different ways, what I've understood is that we need to go to the people, not trying to always get the people to come to us. So there's a tendency, certainly here in the UK, where it's like, you know, I'm gonna do a thing about Roman soldiers and then people will just come to that. And it's like, well, of course, some people do, you know, you get people that are like, yeah, great, great. That's, that's great. But I'm, I'm kind of up for the people that are like,

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  you tell me why I should come. And that's why in my podcast, the format is a non-specialist. They're a UK celebrity. And they come on and they know something about a topic like wine. And then I talk about ancient wine and they talk about wine and we, we look over topics that we're interested in today, like people being teetotal. Um, 25% of Brits are teetotal today. Um, and there are loads of reasons why, but we, uh, teetotal, don't, don't, don't drink.

• 1:11:35Liv Albert?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  What do you call that in, in Canada?

• 1:11:39Liv Albert?

  Don't drink.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Okay. So good.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  Whatever floats your boat.

• 1:11:44Liv Albert?

  Heard that term before, but never as like a, like a thing that people can be.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  Good to know. No, it's good to know. So teetotalers are people that do not drink alcohol. Um, so it was like 25% of, of, of young, you know, British people don't drink. And it's like, well, that's a, I guess, a bit of a trend. And some of those reasons are health related, of course. But also it's like, then we looked at like what ancient Greek and Roman authors said about teetotalers. And I trust me, you can imagine. It weren't that great.

• 1:12:10Liv Albert?

  But also like, what do you, what do you drink if you can't drink, if you don't drink wine in the ancient world, like literally?

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 1:12:17Liv Albert?

  What do you?

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  Can't drink milk. Can't drink milk.

• 1:12:19Liv Albert?

  Drink like water.

• 1:12:20Speaker 02

  No oat milk either. Can't do, can't do lactose intolerance or anything back then, neither could you. What did you drink? Well, water's probably gonna kill you off, isn't it?

• 1:12:29Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly. It's like, you're not even drinking water. What are you doing?

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  You have to just get on with it. You haven't got a choice. You have to get on with it. You can't just go, I'm gonna go get a Diet Coke. This sucks. You've got, you've got to get on with it, haven't you?

• 1:12:41Liv Albert?

  That's wild.

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  Good question. Maybe, maybe someone, I mean, the wine stuff was really interesting because actually, I don't know, do you drink wine, Liv? Are you a wine drinker at all? Yeah, yeah, wicked. So I used to live in New Zealand. So when I lived there, I got ticked me into wine because it's like, you know, yeah, oh, New Zealand. If you're from New Zealand, oh my god.

• 1:13:00Liv Albert?

  New Zealand white wine, well, one type is my favorite thing in the whole world.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And I'm a white wine. I'm not, I'm not a red wine drinker. It's not my style. So I'm always like white and fizzy and, and pink. So this was really, this was really interesting because I'm thinking like, what is it like? What is it in the, like the taste of wines that I'm interested in? Like, what do I like? What was it like for them? And we, I don't know if you, because I know, again, you don't, you don't talk as much about Roman stuff, but they had this, this wine called Molson, which is like a sort of like sweetish weirdness, like vinegary sweet. I don't really know. I can't really understand what it tastes like.

• 1:13:37Liv Albert?

  Vinegary sweet, oof.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, now, I think they sweetened it, the, the, the cheaper you went, the sweeter it got. Because I had to try and make it taste, I think the base in it is, yeah. Yes, exactly. Did you have Lambrini? Did you know what that is?

• 1:13:52Liv Albert?

  No.

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  Lambrini. This might be a very British thing. It also might be a very, I'm nearly forty thing. But there was this fizzy drink called Lambrini that's like a, like a, I don't know what the alcohol content is, but it's like this super sweet white wine. And I think it was literally like the lowest alcohol ever. But when you were like fifteen, you were like, mm-hmm.

• 1:14:09Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah, we have those.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm not saying that I was drinking at fifteen in case someone tells the police on me, but I just mean like generically.

• 1:14:15Liv Albert?

  You're British, isn't that fine?

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  Probably. Don't know. Don't want to knock on the door. Anyway, so it was like that, the wine, like, does the taste of wine? And I love doing that because I'm learning at the same time. I got a little wine lesson out of that one. I was like, ooh, that's really interesting. And we were talking about the trend for organic wines and basically how every wine would have been organic in the Roman, Greek and Roman period and, and people wanting to go back to that and how that affects taste and production. And, oh, I learned so much. So kind of love all that, that kind of way of learning really, because I'm learning at the same time. Because I really am, because I'm talking to someone. I've just recorded one actually on Thrillers and there's a little bit of monsters in there that I should try not to talk about for 500 hours on.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  Which is not easy, but yeah, so. But that's one minute I'm doing monsters, something that I, you know, this is one of my things. This is one of my specialisms. I really enjoy it. But then the next minute I'm talking about wine. And Liv, I don't know anything about ancient wine. I had to research all of that, talk to the academics in the field, revise that and find these little, I guess, talking points that I thought would be really interesting. So I mean, it's a good learning curve. I enjoy it. I enjoy doing it. It's good fun.

• 1:15:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I, I mean, that's what I love about my conversations generally is how much I learn.

• 1:15:37Liv Albert?

  Obviously, it's usually like really specific topics in my field, but, but even at the same time, like, I mean, one, obviously academics teach me a million things when I talk to them, but also there's something about having a conversation like this, where you get out new theories and things, you know, just by, by saying them out loud to another person and, and like sharing your different thoughts on it is so fascinating because you really do get so much more out of it than you do just like thinking about it on your own, you know, like, yeah, it's such a perfect way to learn.

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  Maybe you should rename the podcast like Liv's Ancient Therapy Sessions or something where people can come and offload about, about whatever particular theory they're struggling with or what have you. Because it sometimes feels like that.

• 1:16:22Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah. And, and like, at, at this point, you know, my guests rarely come on to talk about myths. So it's like, oh god, I need a new podcast name generally. This show has grown so much. Like, I still do myths on the scripted episodes, but otherwise I'm just like, do you have something about the ancient Mediterranean that you want to tell me about? Great. Come on the show. I am not picky.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  Sounds good. Yeah, you think we need to, let's talk about stuff, baby.

• 1:16:49Liv Albert?

  Let's talk about the ancient Mediterranean, uh, history, mythology, everything.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  Can you imagine what's wrong when people are typing in or typing in? They're not like, you know, it's not typewriter, you know, looking for it. I can't be bothered. This is far too much. You need something short and snappy like Legit Classics. Have you got any Latin? Do you know any Latin or is it Greek?

• 1:17:06Liv Albert?

  Minimal, minimal. And I, well, I don't have either language.

• 1:17:09Speaker 02

  So legit is like, it's a, it's a play on words because it's from Lego to choose. So literally she chooses classics. But also, I don't know if you know the word legit is a very like, I guess, London, like, you know, I know the words, I know the word, we all know what the word legit means, legitimate, but it's a very like London, like, oh, it's legit. It's like very a London way of talking as well. So

• 1:17:29Liv Albert?

  We do that.

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  I was a bit, I mean, I had some, some, some, some clangers written down before that. I mean, I'll have to dig them out to tell you, but they were not good, some of them. I think it was Rome wasn't built in a day, I thought, because that could be interesting. But there was, oh, there were some really good ones. I have to say, I'll have to look at my, my notes to find out what's on them. But yeah, it was legit classics in the end because I quite liked it.

• 1:17:50Liv Albert?

  I had a grand total of one podcast title idea and it is this. It is the end result. I put in absolutely no thought and absolutely did not consider what it would be like to tell people that my podcast was named this for the next five years.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  You weren't expecting such success. So, but then I, I know you sometimes like to sing it, don't you? You sometimes like to.

• 1:18:15Liv Albert?

  I only sing it in the intro. Yeah, when I'm alone.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  So you're not gonna do it now for me then?

• 1:18:22Liv Albert?

  Absolutely not. No, no, no, no. Thank you so much for having me on. And, and I mean it like, you know, from someone starting out, like, I'm so impressed by your, without sounding like patronizing, I don't mean that in any way, but like your commitment and the day, like I said, the days where you have to keep going and, and the fact that you've built this on your own, it's just phenomenal. Thank you so much for coming on because it's been so much fun and it's so exciting. And, and thank you for saying such nice things about my show because it means a lot. Some days I really need that reassurance that like, there is a point to me having to push through because trying to write something funny when you feel like shit is very difficult sometimes.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure, sure.

• 1:19:00Liv Albert?

  Yeah. But yeah, thank you so much. But why don't you, uh, tell my listeners where they can find your show and anything more about you, whatever you want to share?

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  So if you want to listen to Legit Classics, it's on all the major providers. So you can find it on Apple and Spotify and, you know, I've got a link tree as well. So obviously I'm on social media. My, my little tag name is, um, Legit Classicist or just Jasmine Elmer when you look me up on Instagram, Twitter, that sort of thing. Um, watch me on telly if you're in the UK and if not the UK, National Geographic, the same program is on there. So go and enjoy that. That was about Pliny the Elder, um, in a wider episode about, um, Herculaneum and new finds. So it was really awesome. So it's lots of really cool, like, I don't know, brains, it turning into glass and stuff like that. So, yeah.

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  Hopefully, come see me there. It'd be nice to, to meet some new people on my, you know, listening to my show.

• 1:19:55Liv Albert?

  Yeah, well, I will link to everything in the episode's descriptions. They can find it all. And yeah, everyone, please go listen to Jasmine's podcast because that's so much fun.

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  Thanks, darling.

• 1:20:19Liv Albert?

  Uh, nerds, nerds, nerds. Gods, I love these conversations. They're fun for me. They're fun for you. We all get to learn a load of new things. Truly such a thrill. It was so fun having Jasmine on to talk all things monsters and to share my love for not only volcanoes, but the chimera. Because who doesn't love a fire breathing goat sticking off of a lion's back? Boring people. That's who. Thank you all for listening. As always, it's the best. You can follow Jasmine on Twitter and check out her podcast, Legit Classics, wherever you listen to this one. There's a link to her Twitter in this episode's description. And well, I have a quick note about, uh, next week's episode too.

• 1:21:01Liv Albert?

  We're doing something a little different due to some scheduling things, but well, you're going to love it and I'm gonna keep it to be a bit of a surprise. So just wait. We're gonna finish off spooky season with a bang. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians. Honestly, Michaela handles so much. She is a lifesaver and is always taking on more and I, she's the best decision I ever made hiring that one. Stephanie Foley works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions and accessibility. The podcast is hosted and monetized by Acast.

• 1:21:40Liv Albert?

  Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and the ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron where you'll get bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon.com/mithbaby or check the link in this episode's description. You're all nerdy and cool. Thank you for being here. I am Liv and I love this shit.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  Hi, it's Danny Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. Twelve celebrities, one Don and cold, hard cash. From the producers of The Traitors comes The Mob, the new Hulu original series. The iconic Parker Posey hosts this unique reality competition show where 12 celebrity contestants shake down in an Italian villa to win a share of up to $250,000. Watch the new Hulu original series, The Mob, premiering October 26th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

• 1:23:25Speaker 05

  Enemy of My Dreams by Jenny Williamson is a historical romance novel set in the time of the late Roman Empire, where Alaric, a brutal Gothic warlord, and Julia, a Roman princess, with a love of good wine, team up to take down Rome. The much awaited sequel, Game of Thieves, comes out December 8th. In this sequel, Julia and Alaric must overcome centuries of conflict to work together or the turbulent riptides of rebellion and the demons of their past will tear them apart. And now for a limited time, when you preorder Game of Thieves through Burning Pages Bookstore, you'll get a signed book plate and a free art print of one of Jenny's favorite spicy scenes from across the series.

• 1:24:10Speaker 05

  Get this amazing artwork only from Burning Pages at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves. Don't wait. Order your copy from Burning Pages today at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves.