470 | How to Listen

The Minimalists are joined by Judah Smith to talk about building a community, finding wellbeing through connection, how to listen to people you love but disagree with, and more. Discussed in this episode: What should an introvert do if they feel like they don't need to belong to a so-called community? (2:25) How do you listen to people you love but often disagree with? (9:16) How difficult is it to build a community with people you disagree with? (24:07) Sleep Meditation and Black Friday discussion. (41:03) Listener insight: Using minimalism to get through a difficult divorce. (44:04) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  You're listening to the Minimalist Podcast with Joshua Fields Milburn and TK Coleman. Recorded live at Earthing Studios in sunny California.

• 0:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, thank you, Malibu. Hello, everybody. Happy week of Thanksgiving. Today, we're talking about building a community. We're also talking about finding well-being through connection, how to listen to people you love but often disagree with, and much, much more. Joining us in the studio to discuss these topics is a first-time guest, but he's someone I've admired for a while. Today, we're speaking with Judah Smith. Coming up on this free, public minimal episode, a caller has a question about listening to people she clashes with. She's also wondering about whether introverts actually need a so-called community, or maybe that's just for extroverts. And then we've got a lightning round question about building a community with people you disagree with.

• 1:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's followed by our Right Here, Right Now segment and a listener tip. You can check out the maximal edition of episode 470. That's the full two-hour episode where we answer twice, or actually three times, as many questions, and we dive deep into several simple, loving segments. That private podcast is out right now on Patreon. You can find the link in the description. When you subscribe, you'll receive a personal, private feed so that our weekly maximal episodes play in your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our podcast archives, all the way back to episode 001. That's a whole lot of less. Big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement-free, because, sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Let's start with our callers.

• 2:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If you have a question or a comment for our show, we would love to hear from you. You can give us a call at 406-219-7839, or email a voice recording to [email protected]. Our first question today is from Jackie.

• 2:27Speaker 03

  Hello minimalists, this is Jackie in Redding, Pennsylvania, and I am a Patreon subscriber. I am curious about the topic you brought up of community, because I've started to observe that I don't crave as much communal activity or connection as it seems everybody else talks about or wants. And I've always attributed that to the fact that I'm intensely introverted, and also that I've come to enjoy my own company. And so when people talk about community profusely, and hold it up almost as a virtue, it starts to make me feel like

• 3:12Speaker 03

  there's something wrong with me, that I'm not as committed to community as others, or desire it as much as others. And I wonder what your thoughts are on this. Thank you.

• 3:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Judah Smith, I thought this was a great place to start. Are you an introvert or extrovert?

• 3:29Speaker 04

  Extrovert, I must admit, yeah.

• 3:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, well, you're here with a couple of introverts, although Malabama is an extrovert. Extroverts unite! Yes! Introverts unite, but in separate rooms.

• 3:38Speaker 04

  Yes, literally.

• 3:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  In separate rooms. So let's get to the heart of this question, but I think there's also a question behind this question.

• 3:45Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 3:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What Jackie's asking is, what should I do as an introvert? If I feel like I don't need to belong to your so-called community?

• 3:55Speaker 04

  This is a real intimate question to me, and a personal one, because my wife's an introvert, and her body has been compromised because of my extrovert ways, true story. And we are now visiting a lot of doctors and people to try to deal with kind of the compromised chronic fatigue syndrome amongst many others that people have said she has, because I forced her into environments that was not the way she was designed. And so I think immediately I hear Jackie, and it's like I want to give her a hug, and I want to say, listen, this idea of community has gotten blown out of proportion, and it means suddenly you gotta have 17 best friends. Says who? Who even has 17 best friends? Dear God. Even extroverts have a tough time with that. I love the ancient scripture says where two or more gathered,

• 4:40Speaker 04

  there's a sense of God there. And I think community can be, hey, can you have one or two friends that you really open up to? And ultimately, I think even extroverts need to be more honest about this because I think we're giving introverts a bad rap and putting them under undue pressure that somehow they've got to get out there and have 17 engagements throughout the week and have a dinner every night. I do that often times because that's where I get energy. But if that's not where you get energy, don't let anybody tell you that community is defined by a particular personality trait. It really is having one or two people you can really candidly open up to. And come on, extroverts, let's get honest. The truth is you might have 1,700 best friends, but you really only open up to a couple trusted people. And I think we can all do that with, with, with the help of each other.

• 5:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  BK, how do you think about community?

• 5:25Speaker 05

  I think it's interesting that he used the example from church and I relate to this because in many churches, you have this paradoxical thing where people hunger for community. And yet they approach the very community that they hunger for as consumers. When they say community, they often mean the benefits of being part of a community. Having lots of things I can consume. Is there a movie night? Are there lots of small groups? Is there a pizza party? Is there a car show? Are there things for me to do? But I still have the freedom to come and go as I please without having any investment in someone else. But community isn't about a place for amusement, although it can involve that. Community is about connection.

• 6:08Speaker 05

  It's about having a reason for showing up other than my own self. And so, community can simply mean I am serving or contributing in a way that I know serves the entire environment, even if it doesn't require me to see the entire environment. My wife went to a women's conference in Arizona just a couple of weeks ago. And I went with her and I dropped her off so that I could use the car to go meet up with a friend of mine. And they needed some tables and chairs moved. And being the only guy there at like 6:30 in the morning, I said, sure, I'll help out. I had some time. And so I moved a bunch of tables, moved a bunch of chairs, ended up taking me about an hour. And when I walked out of there, I felt so good.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  I was working by myself the whole time. I wasn't having any interesting conversations. I didn't meet hardly any of the women that went to that conference and I didn't go to the conference. But I knew that I contributed to that conference in a way that bound me together with that community. And I was present in a way that didn't require my presence. And so that's what community is. It's the assurance of knowing that I am connected to others, not necessarily hanging out all the time.

• 7:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Judah, I'm wondering here, there's this dichotomy because there's this consumption and there's the contribution side of it. And I think when we enter a community, whatever it can be, it could be a game night that we go to every Wednesday with friends or with strangers even, right? It can be organized religion. It can be, you could get your friends together and have a movie night. There is some sort of community there where you are consuming some, there's nothing wrong with consumption. Obviously, on this podcast with the Minos, we often talk about overconsumption with respect to material possessions. But also, we talk about consuming less and creating more. And I think we've thought, we've forgotten about that creative side of embracing a community.

• 7:52Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely. I think the idea of finding, I think it was Martha Stewart in her latest documentary. She goes, I just have looked where there's something lacking or there's a void and I fill it. And it's like, wow, Martha, that's kind of wild and crazy and awesome. What if we thought like that when it came to community? Hey, what's missing in my space and in my neighborhood and in my arena of life? And how can I fulfill it and fill it? And I think there's that innovation. And what I love about this podcast, I'm so happy to be here. I've never been shoeless in a podcast in my whole life. I'm barefoot right now and it feels great, I must say. But I think that idea of really distilling life down and saying, hey, what are the, what are the God given gifts that I have?

• 8:33Speaker 04

  And how can I fill a void maybe that I see apparent and present in my surroundings? And I think by doing that, that creativity creates, you know, you contribute in a significant way.

• 8:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  How can I add value is a question I'm constantly asking. And one of the ways that we can add value is by listening. I think that's one of the things that we often forget when we talk about having meaningful relationships with a Community. It's always about what can I do? What can I take? But one of the things that we do often is listening. That's not the same thing as staying silent, by the way. In fact, Jackie, when she first called in, she left a different question for us. And we chose to pick this one, but her other question I thought tied in with this really well. And it was essentially, how do you listen to people you love, but often disagree with? And I think that question is especially important right now. We're at a time where we just had an election. There's a lot of division. Of course, there was division before that as well.

• 9:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  How do I love someone? How do I see them for who they are without trying to drag them or shame them? And so let's talk a bit about listening, TK. You are great at listening, active listening. But I think part of that has to do with your level of curiosity. There is a level of curiosity that you bring to a community that feels genuine to me, but also feels so loving and welcoming.

• 9:54Speaker 05

  Well, thank you.

• 9:56Speaker 05

  I feel so warm and fuzzy inside, man. I was trying to look cool and keep a poker face like, oh, no, you know, but that feels so good. Thank you. So, you know, it's interesting because I think we can take this question. And instead of saying, how do you listen to people that you love but disagree with? We can just go with, how do you listen? Because it's the same answer, whether you like them or not, whether you agree or not. And the answer to that is with genuine curiosity, recognizing that this person has something to offer you, even if at the end of the discussion, it turns out that you don't endorse any of the things that they believe. I don't have to be interested in what you believe and in what you do in order for me to be interested in you.

• 10:39Speaker 05

  You might be interested in volleyball. I may not care about it, but if it excites you, that's fascinating to me. How can someone that I love be so fascinated by something that bores me? That's interesting. So the more disagreeable it is, the more opportunity there is for fascination. And when you're dealing with people who disagree with you, I think the key is to recognize that by allowing them to speak, you're not misrepresenting your philosophy. You are not endorsing everything they say by saying, hey, man. Why do you believe that? I think about Daryl Davis, who converted over 200 KKK members as a black man by going into spaces and asking, "Hey, how can you hate me and you don't even know me?" And he talked about one conversation where there was a KKK member who said something to the effect of,

• 11:23Speaker 05

  "Well, I'll tell you why we do this. Because, first of all, black people commit all the crimes. Black people's brains are smaller. It's in your DNA to do bad things." And Daryl says, "But I don't do any of those things you're talking about." And he says, "Well, your DNA is latent and its potential has not yet been actualized." Now, for most people, they would have walked away at that point and the world would have backed them up and they would have been totally justified. But he stayed there and kept being curious because he said, "These beliefs were so absurd to me. And yet I could see that this guy really believed. I couldn't walk away. I had to understand." I'm not saying everyone needs to go into the KKK ministry

• 12:07Speaker 05

  because there is such a thing as being hardwired and optimized for that. But when you talk to people who disagree with you, you get curious and you ask them questions and listen. Not only do you have the opportunity to learn about them, but you also increase your own ability to influence them if that's something you desire to do.

• 12:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I noticed something between both of you is you don't hold on to the need to be right. And quite often, we hold on to that need to be right. It drags us in all kinds of directions. It actually brings us away from community.

• 12:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, it really does. Listening to when you get to go next, building your case while listening to somebody else's. All of these things quite defeat the whole point of listening. You know, it's all... But how many times I find myself doing that? You know, like you're listening to each other and instead of listening, you're like, "Okay, what could I add? What profound thing could I say that would impress everybody in this semicircle?" And there again, I've defeated the whole point and the whole purpose. I truly am so compelled by what has just been said. It's so meaningful. Dr. King said, "Hate can't drive out hate, only love can do that." And I think listening is an act of true love. It's like I'm gonna... The ancient scripture says, "Speak the truth in love." And I'd say, "Well..."

• 13:17Speaker 04

  Listen in love. Love is the thing that causes you to listen because you you love people and you want to learn about people. And I've found a little trick, and I don't know if this is going to resonate with anybody. But everybody told me readers are leaders, and I really wanted to be a leader, and I think I'm a leader, but I'm not really a reader. I like articles, but I don't really read books, and I need to work on that. And then it dawned on me one day. I can circumvent reading if I just listen, like if I just listen to people, I I can get ahead too, you know? And I'm I'm so dead serious. By really engaging, learning, absorbing and listening to people. Uh, I have picked up more than than perhaps if I read a bunch of books, because reading people is one of the great art forms in the human experience. And I just, I believe in it, and I believe it is an act of love.

• 13:59Speaker 04

  When someone intuitively knows another human is hearing them, not agreeing, but hearing them, they feel heard. Ah, you make people feel like they can fly, and I'm into that.

• 14:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There's something about the the side side of listening where it is a superpower. If you can do it intentionally, if you can do it actively, and I think there's a point at which your community is is strengthened by your ears and weakened by your mouth. Like I said, there's a point. That's not always the case. Sometimes we it it helps to chip in to to give a perspective, to give insights, to have wisdom that you bring to the table. But it never helps to batter someone with that wisdom, right? In fact, if you want to bring them into your community, one of the best ways you can do that is listen to them.

• 14:47Speaker 05

  Can I give something practical really quickly? When you are having a conversation with someone who's saying a bunch of disagreeable things, what you can do to express everything that you want to say is translate all of your objections and concerns into questions. This is disarming, and it gives you information that you may not have known was even there. So let's say someone says something completely outlandish, and it's clearly contradictory to you. You can simply ask them, what would you say to people who would argue thusly? And you're making the assumption that there are people in the world that don't see it that way. What would you say to them? And this is fascinating because you actually get to see what this individual would say.

• 15:30Speaker 05

  And if they haven't thought about it, this is going to be a good challenge for them. A second way you can do it is you could say something like when you see a contradiction, you can say, what you just said appears to contradict what these experts over here say.

• 15:45Speaker 05

  How would you reconcile that contradiction in your worldview? And let them go?

• 15:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, and as you let them go, you are listening, right? You're not just simply staying silent.

• 15:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, I think even the tone that you just did that in is just as potent and powerful as the content you just dispersed. It's like that tone of genuine care and curiosity. I think in all of our experiences, you know that. You know that guy or gal who's like, now,

• 16:14Speaker 04

  you know, what would you say if people said? And it's like, bro, you said everything with your tone and delivery and your fake laugh. You know, that it's kind of condescending, et cetera, et cetera. And you're right, already you've let the cat out of the bag. You're not listening. You're making a point with your question, but the way and tone. I so believe in tone and the power of tone is so important, even in this whole process of listening.

• 16:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I want to get back to the heart of Jackie's question here about, look, I'm an introvert. I don't feel like I need a so-called community. And that may be true. You may not need a specific community, but we all are eager to be in relationship with others. If you're an introvert, I'm an extreme introvert. But and I might have a relatively small circle, but it's appreciably different from being on a deserted island. And if you're on a deserted island, of course, you don't have community, but you're also going to feel incredibly lonely. And so are there moments in which you feel lonely ever? Now, I know you say there are times where you really enjoy being with yourself, and I think it's really healthy and I think that's wonderful. But also, there may be times where like you yearn for that desire to connect with others.

• 17:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And Jude, I think you do this really well. You often say you don't have to believe the same thing as someone in your row in order to be connected to them.

• 17:30Speaker 04

  Yep. Yeah, I think loneliness is an epidemic, first of all. I think we know that it's at an all-time high, they say. And maybe it's just because we have more capacity and ability and technology to do the research. Maybe men and women have always been so deeply lonely. But aloneness and maybe aloneness and loneliness are a little bit different. But this idea of feeling lonely, feeling like an island, feeling isolated, feeling like you're the only one is seems to be in my line of... Work at an all time high and the irony is it knows no discrimination. It seems to people on platforms, people in the front, in people not in prominence. Loneliness is an epidemic. Why? Why are we so lonely?

• 18:10Speaker 04

  And ultimately, I think this idea of community has these two qualities to it. It is to be known and to know someone. To do that is going to take extraordinary risk on our part. And the problem is that I'm facing when I interact with people, I meet with a lot of guys and we go do coffee. And it's oftentimes the same story, yo, bro, I'm telling you, man, like I put myself out there and I was used. And somebody like, like took advantage of that, like I can't keep doing this anymore. And ultimately, like I'm, I'm on the minimalist podcast, so I better distill this and get this down to the bottom line.

• 18:51Speaker 04

  So I'm just going to say where we get, but we get there very carefully and gradually and hopefully with, with care. But it ultimately gets to the, this whole conclusion, let's do it again. You and me, let's do it again. If you do it, I'll do it. In fact, let's do it right now. I'm going to tell you something about where I'm at and then I want you to tell me where you're at. And suddenly guys look at me like, yo, dog, like right now at Blue Bottle, you know, like that was a, that was a shameless plug. But you know, right now, which I think is where we met Joshua, but right now, yeah, yeah, right now, let's just do this. And there's been a lot of tears. Yesterday I sat in a semicircle with some of my closest friends and each one of us took time crying. And not that crying is the ultimate evidence, but for grown men to cry with each other, maybe that's a little bit of progress. But it was like you go and I'll go, you go and I'll go.

• 19:36Speaker 04

  And that practice to me is sacred, it's holy. And like anybody else, right now at 46 years old, I gotta tell you, I'm going through a leadership transition right now. And I feel like shutting down, going away and trusting no one ever again. And that seems like the most potent, powerful, logical deduction and conclusion. But I know that's not what I want. I want engagement, I want connection, I want confluence, it's what I crave and desire. But here I am, a community facilitator, wanting to shut it all down. So yesterday was a practice that I did, I really mean it. I put myself out there, I shared the truth about where I'm at in my marriage, where I'm at with some friends, where I'm at in my theology and philosophy. And we got somewhere on a Monday afternoon, we did.

• 20:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Wow.

• 20:18Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 20:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because of the connection of the community. That's the opposite. And I think sometimes when we feel like, oh, this community, to be in a community by itself is virtuous. No, not necessarily. There are harmful communities.

• 20:30Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 20:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can be, I mean, you talked about the KKK. That's almost a parodic exaggeration of a harmful community. But there are other harmful communities that are much more pernicious, right? That maybe you can't tell that it's harmful because from the outside, it feels like, oh, they're welcoming or, oh, they're accepting. But they're also going to try to change me or manipulate me or maybe they're going to rob me, steal from me, whatever it is, right? And now that is a type of community consumerism in a way. Consumerism, the ideology that buying things is going to make me whole, complete or happy. But I would also say the same thing about a community. If you show up to a community empty, it's harder to fill yourself up with it. But if you show up recognizing that I am already complete

• 21:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  and there's something that I can add here. No, I'm not flawless. That's not what complete means. I was born complete. I will die complete. But if I show up to this community, knowing that I'm complete, I have something to contribute here. That feels so much more rewarding than just taking, taking, taking from the community.

• 21:30Speaker 05

  Man, that's so good. I think one question that we all would benefit from continually asking ourselves is kind of like a spiritual practice is, how am I willing to allow my community to challenge me? I think that's so important. Another thing is when people make statements of the order, I don't like X, I don't need X. X often means society's definition of it. Some overly restrictive concept of X. It's like my little cousin who says, I don't like to read. And I said, oh, I'm sorry that the world did that to you. I'm sorry that somebody convinced you a long time ago that reading is about scanning your eyes over boring pages that your teacher told you you had to look at. I'm sorry that somebody took that away from you. But I'm going to tell you, you do like to read

• 22:15Speaker 05

  and I'm going to take you to a bookstore and we're going to find the books that have your name on them. And we did that. And man, she had so many books and she was like, wow, I can't believe how interesting these books look. And in a similar way, when someone says, hey, I don't need community or I don't like community, I would say, hey, let's, let's get rid of all that baggage. Let's just substitute people for the word community. You like people. You need people. You just don't need the same amount of people as other people. And you don't need people in the same way that other people need them. And you just have to give yourself permission to like people in the way that you like them.

• 22:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Jackie, I'd love to give you a clutter counseling session with TK Coleman. If you have some physical clutter, emotional clutter, or maybe some community clutter here, he will show you how to be curious. We'll give you a free session of clutter counseling. For anyone else who's interested, just head on over to theminimalists.com. You can click counseling at the top and book a counseling session with the one and only TK Coleman. Before we get back to our callers, Malibu, what time is it?

• 23:11Speaker 01

  You know what time it is. It's time for the lightning round where we answer the Patreon community chat's question of the week.

• 23:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, indeed. Now, Judah, during the lightning round, we each have 60 seconds to answer a question with a short, shareable, minimal maxim.

• 23:24Speaker 04

  What's my shortest time I've ever gone?

• 23:25Speaker 01

  17 minutes.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  I knew I was amongst friends. I love this community. I love this community.

• 23:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We try to be pithy, but we never are. That's the irony. Everything you do as a minimalist is blanketed by irony, by the way. It's, oh, my God, you guys were underwear? What are you, hypocrites?

• 23:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can find this episode's minimal maxims in the show notes at theminimalists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every Monday for free. If you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.e-mail, we'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. What's the question of the week this week?

• 24:09Speaker 01

  How difficult is it to build a community with people you disagree with?

• 24:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ooh, that's a good one. So we had, before we get into the pithy answers here, we had a bunch of people respond, like a bunch of people respond to this one. But Consuela asked a question. Let's answer her question first.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Can real community be achieved without everyone sharing the same moral principles?

• 24:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Judah, what say you? Can real community be achieved without having the same moral principles?

• 24:34Speaker 04

  I think it's a little bit of a parody if not. I think that, to me, real community is a conglomeration of different humans who see things differently, and the menagerie is the beauty. So I say that's the only kind of connection and confluence I want. I want to be challenged. I want somebody to speak the truth to me because they love me. So to me, the question defines, I think, pinnacle kind of community connection. I need people to challenge me.

• 25:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK?

• 25:06Speaker 05

  It has to. It has to be. What he's saying absolutely has to be right because here's community for me. You know, you go home and you're in your apartment trying to watch a movie with your wife and you hear the loud sounds of porn because your next door neighbor is blasting porn. And you don't want to need this guy, but the reality is you need him. You need him to turn that down. And, and you wish you live in a world where you could just unfollow him and he disappears, but that's not the world you live in. And then the neighbor to my, my left, they smoke weed and they blast their music all the time. I don't like these people. I don't want to need them. I wish I had the money to live on an island, but I unfortunately I do need them. I can't unsubscribe and make them disappear. Those are games we can play online, but for the overwhelming majority of people, we have

• 25:51Speaker 05

  to work with, we have to buy groceries with, we have to drive on the highway with people that we simply don't like. And so, community is when you step up to the challenge of saying, man, I hate the fact that I need you. I resent the fact that I need you. I wish that I did it, but the reality is that I do. And so, I'm going to talk to you as if I have to get results because I don't have the luxury of speaking to you in whatever way I want and then walking away no matter how much you react because I fricking need you. You're my neighbor. So, how can I talk to you in a way that gets you to turn the porn down? How can I talk to you in a way that gets you to be considerate, even though I think you should already know that stuff?

• 26:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right. And yet, there is a line somewhere where you have to extract yourself from a situation. If someone's behaving in a way that is harmful toward you or violent, obviously want to create some distance. It doesn't mean you can't love that person from a distance, but sometimes distance is required. And so, I think the heart of Consuela's question here has something to do with, yeah, if someone is harming me, yeah, I probably don't want to be part of that community. However, if someone just disagrees with me, even though we have different like fundamental, fundamentally different beliefs. I mean, the three of us believe differently here on the show. TK is Catholic and I'm pescatarian.

• 27:06Speaker 04

  Why did I laugh so loud? I really like that.

• 27:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But the funny thing is, like, we, every month, we do something called Sunday Symposium. We've created this little community gathering here in West Hollywood. And people come from all over Southern California. So people come from Mexico, people come from Canada, they come down from Seattle, or Iowa, or Ohio. And we've created this little community. We call it like Church for People Who Don't Go to Church, which really doesn't describe it, it doesn't do it justice, because TK goes to church more than anyone I know. But what we're doing is creating a community for people who have radically different beliefs. All beliefs and non-beliefs are welcome, and we want to show up and show you that it's possible to love you, even if we happen to disagree on, on, on certain things, even some fundamental things. Or certainly, we disagree on NBA basketball. But that's a, a different question here.

• 27:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Elena had this to say.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  To build a strong community, you have to find something you do agree on. My dance community consists of a hodgepodge of folks from different countries with all sorts of outlooks on life, politics, religion, et cetera. But we all come together to dance and spend time and genuinely enjoy each other's company.

• 28:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know, TK, you said something to me before we started recording. You said unity isn't born of sameness, it's built through understanding. What did you mean by that?

• 28:23Speaker 05

  Well, we all have a common ground upon which we can stand, and sometimes you just don't get to see what that is unless you ask, unless you exercise the courage and curiosity to engage people. And there are just a number of truths, the most important ones, are just not obvious. And so when you're talking to someone, you know, there's always something. Like, hey, man, do you think it's important for us to have reasons for our beliefs? Uh, yeah, okay, we disagree about everything, but that's a common ground. Now, maybe we can have a conversation. Do you think it's important for us to have reasons for our beliefs? And that person says, no, okay, that's not a common ground that we have. Do you think it's important to find people that think like you? Oh, I think that's important, too. So we have something in common.

• 29:08Speaker 05

  You always got to find that, because no matter what it is you're trying to build, you need a foundation upon which you can start.

• 29:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Drew, I think Elena brings up a good point here, is, you know, the first question was sort of about, like, okay, is it possible to unite with people even though we disagree? We sometimes on this show say tribalism is when you unite against someone, but community is when you unite around something. And that could be a dance community. It could be a religious community. It could be whatever community you're uniting around something. Do you agree with Lana that it is important to have some sort of something to unite around?

• 29:43Speaker 04

  Well, I think implicit in the question, which is what I'm here for. It's what I'm pumped about is that it's going to take. Assumptions and presumptions are absolutely devastating our shot at confluence, connection and community, which is to say, oh, I know who you are. Oh, you don't know me like you hadn't even talked to me yet, you know, like, let's talk. And I love to say, and this is so simple, Tim, but I'm on the middle of this podcast. A lot of us, we got eyeballs, we got ears, lips, hips, fingertips. Like, man, we got a lot to talk about and a lot in common. But it is ironic how we feed on the acidic kind of divisive things. We like to be against things more than for things.

• 30:28Speaker 04

  But man, once you lean in, the thing about being against something is immediately you get like, I don't know if it's endorphins, but something when you oppose someone, you get that rush in your body and your hair stands up and you get goose pimples. And you're like, wow, I feel so strong, but it fades. And then your body shakes and you feel weak and you feel weary. But connecting with someone on what you have in common, at first you don't get that exhilarating, like, you know, emboldened, like I stood up and I, but over time it's fulfilling and the sensations in the human soul, they don't fade like they do when you oppose and you fight and you resist. And listen, there is a time to stand and resist. I absolutely, but I think the willingness to stick it out with people and say,

• 31:12Speaker 04

  let's find something that we connect on. I think is the future of society constructs continents and countries. I'm just here for it, man. I believe in it.

• 31:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's so good. That's exactly why we, I mean, you articulated why we do the Sunday symposium. It's the last Sunday of every month and we limit it. I'm going to talk to you about it a bit later because I want some of your insights. You've built some. Over time, I want to talk to you about what goes well, what to look out for, what roadblocks. We've been doing this for a few years now and it's been really magical because there's no commerce associated with it. We have free tickets so people can get in the door. We have someone who helps us rent the theater. So like it, people just show up and they participate and they're able to be wherever they are. And we get to have these really meaningful conversations that we can have meaningful conversations on the podcast and we do, we could reach a lot of people with that. But there's something really special about having a room that doesn't fit more than 200

• 32:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  people intentionally. And it's way different from our tour stops and you get a lot of people coming, but there's something about being sub 200 people for us that I find to be just incredible. It's magical. Our next one is the last Sunday in, we'll put a link to this in the show notes, by the way. It's the last Sunday in December, last Sunday of the year. If you want to join us here in West Hollywood. Amy had this to say.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  You have to listen, really listen for understanding instead of listening to just respond. It is difficult, but understanding where the person is coming from helps me gain a better appreciation of their perspective.

• 32:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I think the opposite of that is true. If you deeply desire to misunderstand someone, you will find a thousand ways to misinterpret them. And it's really easy for me to like, I don't want to understand you. So whatever you say, I'm going to just mangle it. I'm going to twist it to fit the preconceived notion or the narrative that I have about you so that I can batter you with that narrative.

• 33:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. I don't even know what to say to that. That is so profound. I just want to say, and I was not asked to say this, I really am overwhelmed with the, with the content and what's being shared here. I just want to say that I, I'm 46 years old. I have been doing public speaking podcasts and recording content creation for a long, long time. And I'm blown away at where we're going, what we're saying, how you two communicate. And it's, it's very soothing to me. It's very meaningful to me. And I want to thank you for the work that you do. I don't know if this is even going in the show, but I just want you to know, like we're, I know we're right in the middle of this, but I'm really taken aback by your approach, your delivery, your heart, your posture. I think this is what we need more of in the world. And I just want you

• 33:48Speaker 04

  to know I'm here for it and I believe in it. Like I really believe in it. So that wasn't really a reply to what you just stated, which was profound, but that's just how I feel.

• 33:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh man, it's an honor.

• 34:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We've got one more here. This one's from Angel. Thank you so much, Jude.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Angel said, "I feel like I've found community here in these minimalist chats. I really benefit from having the perspectives and experiences of other aspiring minimalists. I feel our community is curious, accepting, and loving."

• 34:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So earlier this year, Jude, at the beginning of this year, we left social media after our most successful year ever. I think we reached half a billion people last year on social media, and we decided, hey, you know, it's like Jordan after his sixth ring is like, can I really do a seventh? No, he couldn't have, obviously, but that's a different story.

• 34:33Speaker 04

  I can't say nothing to that. I can't say nothing to that.

• 34:36Speaker 05

  You know, I'm curious. Why are you such an idiot about Michael Jordan?

• 34:43Speaker 04

  It's the first time he's been wrong in this whole recording for me.

• 34:45Speaker 05

  Don't ask the questions that way. That's not curiosity.

• 34:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But that's usually how we ask them, or at least in tone, as Jude had talked about earlier. But one of the reasons that we left social media wasn't because we were denouncing it. I love what Anthony de Mello says, as soon as you denounce a thing, you're forever tied to it. And isn't that true? But what we said is, let's step back for a while to see whether or not it's actually adding value. And what do we miss from it? What am I going to learn from this? It's the same thing that I did with my material possessions 15 years ago, when we first started simplifying as the minimalist, was like, okay, remove this from my life for a period of time. And if I really miss it, if it really added value, I can bring it back in. But the truth is, most of the things I eliminate from my life, they didn't add any value at all. They were just getting in the way. And the question is, in what way is the social media getting in the way? And so what we did, what Angel

• 35:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  was mentioning here, on Patreon, we have these community chats that all of our patrons, even the free members, so if you can't afford a subscription to the minimalist private podcast and get all the bonus stuff that we do over there, the extended episodes, et cetera, you can still join the community chats on Patreon, because we wanted to create this community space. And it's so much more loving than if we were on Twitter or TikTok, because there are people here who are communing around a shared idea, but they're showing up with that curiosity. They are showing up listening, but they're also showing up and sharing and Contributing and adding value in a way that is not battering other people. We have so many other things to talk about. So many other people responded to this topic as well.

• 36:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can read dozens of other listener responses in the Patreon community chat. You can join for free if you like. Of course, we'd love for you to support our work financially. But if you can't afford it, you can still join those community chats by becoming a free member on Patreon. The link is in the description. How about you listeners? How difficult is it for you to build a community with people you disagree with? Let us know in the comments. Okay, give me something pithy TK. How difficult is it to build a community with people you disagree with?

• 36:48Speaker 05

  So I'll go with neighbors aren't always chosen, but learning to live with them is.

• 36:55Speaker 05

  You can't really be an instrument of peace unless you're willing to endure some difficult interactions with some difficult people. You can't be an example of love unless you're willing to give love to some people who aren't in a heart space or a headspace to love you back. You can't be an example of grace unless you're willing to affirm the possibility of redemption, even when people are behaving the most disgracefully. And you can't be an example of light unless you're willing to courageously show up in places where darkness permeates, you know? And so I think community is not just about the religious guy enjoying his time around religious people. It's not just about the fitness person enjoying their time around fitness people.

• 37:40Speaker 05

  It's not just going to the book club so I can be around people that love books. It's being Daryl Davis and going into those spaces where they hate everything that I represent and engaging them with curiosity and courage and winning some people over.

• 37:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And Daryl Davis is the template for this because he didn't show up and shame anyone. He didn't say, "You're actually doing it wrong, guys."

• 38:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because he wouldn't have gotten very far had he done that. And he's, "Yeah, of course, we're doing it wrong. We hate you." And of course, you're going to say, "We're doing it wrong." But he showed up and he sold them where they were right then. And simply by seeing them

• 38:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And introducing that way of living. He created that sense of community. His way to add value was to show up and see them for who they were.

• 38:28Speaker 05

  And by the way, he couldn't go undercover, right? He was seen.

• 38:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Dave Chappelle did it.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  I think you broke TK.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  He's shaking his head.

• 38:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Finish that thought though.

• 38:52Speaker 04

  What are we gonna do?

• 38:53Speaker 01

  He can't breathe.

• 38:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's so good. All right. Well, I got something pithy for you. Um, let's see here. What do I got? Every disagreement is an opportunity for self-reflection and I, I mean that because TK has shown me that again and again and again. He and I disagree on so many things, but in a loving way, there's never an argument about the things that we disagree about. In fact, it's always this moment for self-reflection where it's like, okay, is my, he's either solidifying my idea or changing my mind about the idea. He convinces me so much without ever trying to convince me, never drags me to, to his point of view, but simply shows me a, a articulated point of view that resonates with me. And even if I afterward, I'm like, no, that still doesn't resonate for whatever reason. That's okay. It was still a moment for self-reflection. Any last words on that Judah?

• 39:41Speaker 04

  Uh, the ancient scripture says iron sharpens iron and it occurs to me as I'm sitting in the middle of you two, that I'm like, wow, that's what Joshua and TK do for each other. And I see in your eyes, the desire for more of that, not to avoid that. And perhaps that's the magic here. Perhaps that's the sauce behind what you do and the space that you provide for people is that you both are actually, clearly it's evident to me that you're looking to see, where do I see it differently? And how can I learn from you? And how will you learn from me? And perhaps we'll grow more together. And I, I just think this idea of monolithic living, where we're all just the same, uh, loses a lot of its punch and vigor and spice. And, uh, I feel it here and, and I'm, I love it. I'm for it.

• 40:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I was wrong is one of the most freeing things to say.

• 40:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And although it's one of the most difficult things to say as well, especially in an age that is amplified by social media where if you're wrong, now your wrongness becomes amplified. You become the paragon of wrongness for a particular community. And so it's really scary to be wrong, but it's also really freeing. If I step out and say, you know what? I was wrong about that, or simply I changed my mind. And that's totally okay. All right, that's the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to Judah on pages two and three. But real quick for right here, right now, it's a little segment we do where we talk about one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist. Actually, I've got two things because Malabam is just did this sleep meditation. And it is awesome.

• 41:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's part of this three part meditation series that she's done. She did a walking meditation, a decluttering meditation, and now the sleep meditation. You can listen to all three, but I wouldn't listen to this one while while driving.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  He looked dead in the eye. I was not prepared for that. Yes, please don't do that while you're driving.

• 41:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hurt. She has the most beautiful voice and these meditations are are just outstanding. You can find all three of them. We'll put a link to them in the show notes on Patreon. Malabam, you did such a great job with these. Which one was your favorite to do?

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh, that's so hard. You know, I would probably say the sleep meditation as somebody who is pretty new to meditation compared to you guys, you guys have spent a lot more time with it than I have. But as an anxious person, I definitely have benefited from that. The sleep meditation was really fun because it allowed me an opportunity to be even a little bit vulnerable and kind of play with the listener in a way that empowered them to let go of their own anxieties. I know for me, they they kind of pile up at the end of the day. You always feel like you could have done more. You could have done something better. You're like rehashing this weird thing you said to your coworker at lunch. Like I fall subject to those all of the time. And so it felt nice to be able to say, hey, if if this is something that you struggle

• 42:35Speaker 01

  with or something that's similar, like you're not alone and and here's here's some things that can help you through it. I even give a little tip about something that's a fail safe for me, works every single time, but you got to listen all the way at the very end. If you are not asleep yet, then you'll find it.

• 42:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, it's so good. So good. I particularly enjoyed the the I liked all three, but the decluttering meditation was just. This unique thing that I've never even thought about or until now, it's like, oh yeah, decluttering can be a meditative process. You can be present while you are letting go. One more thing for you. Black Friday is this week. You can read my Black Friday essay over at theminimalists.com. We'll put a link to it in the show notes as well. It's that time of year, one of the most stressful times of year for a lot of people. We've turned the holiday season into the holiday shopping season. And we're anxious, we're overwhelmed, we're stressed out. We feel as though we need to buy

• 43:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  things in an obligatory fashion and we're manipulated by corporations and advertisers that tell us that you are a good friend, a good parent, a good sibling, but if and only if you part with those dollars that are in your checking account, or even worse, you go into debt to give. That's not what the spirit of the holidays are. Yes, giving is the spirit, but obligatory gift giving is not the same thing. Check out that Black Friday essay at theminimalists.com. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. Malalabama, what else you got for us?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Here's a minimalist insight from one of our listeners.

• 44:08Speaker 06

  Hello minimalist team. My name is Allison and I live in Oklahoma, USA. And I was just inspired to send you guys a voice note to say thank you and express gratitude and appreciation for your podcast and your content and your authenticity and just all of the things that you share. I got divorced a little over a year ago and it was just a really difficult experience for me. I basically started my life over, completely moved out and got rid of almost all of my things. And right about this time is when I became a

• 44:47Speaker 06

  Patreon subscriber. And honestly, I binged the episodes like crazy. It was such a difficult and challenging time in my life, especially towards the beginning. And your podcast just really carried me and gave me not only some

• 45:06Speaker 06

  Emotional and energetic support, but as well as actual tangible things to do as far as cleaning out and getting rid of physical items and emotional clutter. And I'm just so, so grateful because I feel like your podcast was such a big influence on me and one of the things that really helped support me through my divorce and just rebuilding my life. So I'm still a Patreon subscriber. I listen every week. I always look forward to the episode and the content. So thank you all for everything you do. You make such a difference and I just wanted to again, say thank you, express all my gratitude, love and appreciation. Many blessings.

• 45:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Alison, thank you so much for that heartfelt comment and congratulations on your graduation from that relationship, moving on, moving beyond where you were and going where you are going. For anyone else who has a listener tip or insight about this episode or any other episode, you can leave a comment on Patreon or YouTube, or better yet, send a voice memo right from your phone to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. All right, that's the first 34% of episode 470. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition with Judah Smith, which includes answers to a bunch more questions. Questions like, how can we use

• 46:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  our technology to connect us when it feels like our screens are mostly disconnecting us from other people? What's the best way to lead a dysfunctional community? What should I do if I'm a good parent, but my kids aren't living up to my expectations? Plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. By the way, Patreon is now offering free trials. So if you'd like to test drive our private podcast, you can join for seven days for free. The link is in the description. Big thanks to Judah Smith for joining us today. You can check out the Church Home app. We'll also put a link to his YouTube channel and his social media in the show notes. And that is our minimal episode for today. Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space. On behalf of

• 47:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Malibu, Post Production Peter, Spire Jeff, Inspire Dave, AB and Savvy D. And we had a studio audience today. We had Wes and Genevieve here with Judah as well, and the rest of our team. Thanks to y'all. My name is Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this. Love people and use things.

• 47:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  We'll see you next time.

• 47:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Peace.

• 47:41Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.