ENCORE: The Memory Maker Part 2 | 160

Teal Swan’s self-help empire is on the rise, and so is the backlash to some of her most controversial techniques. Teal fights back against her critics, releasing long rebuttals and detailed explainers on YouTube. She even invites a film crew to document her life and hires a private investigator to prove she’s got nothing to hide. But when the findings come out, things will get even more complicated. If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, the U. S. National Suicide Prevention Lifeline can be reached at 1-800-273-8255. The U. S. National Alliance on Mental Illness is available at 1-800-950-6264. If you or someone you know is a victim of sexual assault, you can contact the National Sexual Assault Hotline in the US by calling 1-800-656-4673. That's 1-800-656-4673. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to Scamfluencers on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/scamfluencers/ http://wondery.com/links/scamfluencers/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sarah Hagi?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app. A heads up to our listeners. Today's episode discusses mental health issues and suicide. Listen with care.

• 0:21Sarah Hagi?

  Sachi, you're someone who loves power. Let's not deny it.

• 0:25Scaachi Koul?

  Correct.

• 0:26Sarah Hagi?

  If you were a cult leader, what would your non-negotiables be for your followers?

• 0:31Scaachi Koul?

  Everybody has to remark loudly and often about how good-looking I am.

• 0:37Sarah Hagi?

  OK.

• 0:38Scaachi Koul?

  I'm not asking for a lot. You could start right now. Why do I need to be a cult leader for that to happen? You could do it today.

• 0:44Sarah Hagi?

  OK, I literally tell you all the time that you're beautiful.

• 0:47Scaachi Koul?

  I know, that is true. It makes me really uncomfortable.

• 0:51Sarah Hagi?

  Well, mine would definitely be that my followers have to make sure I'm always well-fed.

• 0:57Scaachi Koul?

  Oh, that's a good one, too. Yeah, OK. We would have a great cult if you and I ever got, you know, active enough to do that.

• 1:04Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, if we took the initiative. Well, for someone like Teal Swan, who some people think is a bit of a cult leader, it seems like her biggest non-negotiable is complete and unwavering loyalty, which means never having to hear she's wrong, ever. And as you can imagine, that does not go well.

• 1:28Sarah Hagi?

  It's January 2014, and Teal Swan is on a beach in Santa Barbara, California. She's wearing a white dress and staring into the eyes of her new husband, Sardip Singh Swan. I actually have a picture of them from this day. Sachi, please describe it to us.

• 1:45Scaachi Koul?

  OK, Sardip seems like a nice guy. He's got a big, manly jaw.

• 1:49Sarah Hagi?

  Handsome guy. Seems like a handsome guy.

• 1:52Scaachi Koul?

  And he is wearing, like, a

• 1:54Sarah Hagi?

  Casual bridal outfit, I would say. And they're standing outside and they're kissing. Yeah, they look like a lovely, beautiful couple. They look like a very nice couple that my father would quietly criticize. Yes, correct. Well, Teal met Sardip just a few weeks earlier when he was hired as her bodyguard for one of her workshops in London. But this wasn't just a random gig for him. As he says later in a video Teal posts online.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  I came across Teal's teachings about a year ago, maybe. And I thought she was absolutely fantastic. I thought she was very interesting. So I started to watch all her videos. And then I sort of decided that I wanted to meet her.

• 2:29Sarah Hagi?

  Oh, don't.

• 2:33Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, it's never a good sign when you kind of stand someone with the intention of meeting them. It's a very unleveled playing field. Yeah, it never works. And Sardip starts appearing in some of the vlogs Teal films at her house in Park City, Utah. In a Facebook post, Teal announces she's taking her husband's last name. Sashi, can you read what she wrote? Yes. She writes that, quote, "There is deep spiritual significance to this decision. It is a more exalted name. Sardip is from India and there the swan has great spiritual significance." OK, you're Indian. Correct. Is this something that you've heard? Is it something that you know about? I don't know. I haven't, I don't know.

• 3:19Sarah Hagi?

  I can call my dad. You want me to call my dad and I can ask him? Let me text him real quick and ask, do swans have any significance? I feel like the response he'll give is a whole podcast episode. That's worth asking. So I'll just move on. You will be shocked to hear that Teal and Sardip's marriage gets rocky fast. They split up, but in a blog post on her website, Teal announces she's keeping his last name. And Sardip tells Vice TV that, in hindsight, Teal may have had an ulterior motive for wanting to be with him.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  It was a brilliant marketing tool for her to have someone with a British accent, but also with an Indian background. It legitimized her in the new age sort of community.

• 4:03Sarah Hagi?

  100%. I'm glad he sees it. I'm glad he saw it in record time. Good for him.

• 4:09Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I'm glad he was able to clock it. Well, but speaking of him and his swan last name, my dad texted me back and he wrote back, "It seems Saraswati, the goddess of knowledge and creative arts, has a swan as a ride. It is said if somebody has a melodious voice, that Saraswati is actually residing in that person's throat. It's a great compliment."

• 4:30Sarah Hagi?

  Someone else has to give you that name, in my opinion.

• 4:32Scaachi Koul?

  Someone else has to tell you, "You are a swan to me." You can't just be like, "I'm a swan." I mean, I don't know, maybe you can. Maybe you and I need to start doing that.

• 4:40Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Sardip's not the only person close to Thiel who has serious problems with what she's doing. Thiel's focused on building a global movement, and to do that, she has to battle haters who accuse her of leading a cult and preaching dangerous messages about suicide. And it's starting to seem like the greatest threat to her growing empire might just come from within.

• 5:07Speaker 03

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, The Spy Who Was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent, accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari, early and ad-free on Audible.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 6:00Sarah Hagi?

  From Wondery, I'm Sarah Haggy.

• 6:02Scaachi Koul?

  And I'm Sachi Cole.

• 6:03Sarah Hagi?

  And this is Scamfluencers.

• 6:14Sarah Hagi?

  In our last episode, we followed Teal as she embraced her extrasensory gifts and built a self-help empire in the early years of YouTube and social media. Teal's platform with millions of followers is impressive and controversial. She's been criticized for talking about suicide as a "reset button," and some of her teachings are based on discredited techniques for uncovering repressed memories of childhood abuse. Critics say she may be leading vulnerable people to create memories of things that never actually happened, and some claim Teal holds an almost cult-like sway over her most loyal followers. As Teal's star rises, so does the backlash. This is The Memory Maker, Part 2.

• 7:01Sarah Hagi?

  It's December 2016, and Teal Swan is standing in a lush green yard in Costa Rica. She's filming a video to announce that she's opening a new retreat center here.

• 7:12Speaker 05

  I am completely in love with this place. We were divinely led here. I set foot on this property, and within two minutes, I knew that this place was meant for not only myself, but for a lot of people that were looking for healing around the world.

• 7:26Sarah Hagi?

  So this tropical paradise is the Filia Center. It's a place where she can host spiritual retreats and walk her followers through a psychological technique she created. She outlines it in her third book, The Completion Process: The Practice of Putting Yourself Back Together Again. The completion process starts with identifying a current emotional trigger, and then trying to remember the first time you ever felt that way. It's about healing your inner child so you can move on from trauma. Around this time, Teal posts a video demonstrating the process. In it, Teal's video chatting with a young woman who has short brown hair. She's wearing a purple tank top with ruffles, and she's sitting in what looks like her bedroom.

• 8:09Sarah Hagi?

  After making some small talk, Teal dives right

• 8:12Speaker 05

  So, we gotta get you triggered. This is what I want to do. I want you to think about the thing that's causing you the most pain in your life and start talking to me about it.

• 8:22Scaachi Koul?

  So she, I just want to be clear. She is very much saying the quiet part loud all the time.

• 8:28Sarah Hagi?

  Yes, I mean, it's so wild to be like, "Let's get you triggered, babe." The woman tells Teal that she finds it hard to connect with people in groups. She feels unworthy and freezes up. When Teal asks her about the first time she felt this way, she describes an image that comes to her: a baby alone in a crib. Teal asks her to take on the baby's perspective and describe how she feels. The woman says she feels alone, and Teal tells her she's experiencing a memory of emotional neglect, and that this likely happened a lot during her childhood. After about an hour, Teal ends the session by thanking the woman for being vulnerable and telling her that she loves her.

• 9:14Scaachi Koul?

  Is it bad that one of my red flags is if somebody tells me they love me?

• 9:18Sarah Hagi?

  Too early or too often? Like, what do you mean? I think this whole thing is that, you know, people think that if you tell them secrets about your life, that's the same thing as intimacy, so...

• 9:28Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, and it's not.

• 9:30Sarah Hagi?

  But this video clearly resonates with people. It racks up more than 100,000 views on YouTube. But the approach is controversial. Most psychologists agree that by trying to, quote, "recover old memories", you can actually implant false ones. And Teal's not a licensed mental health practitioner. But in her book, she says her experience as a patient undergoing trauma therapy makes her qualified to develop her own practice and treat clients. Teal's convinced that her completion process is revolutionary. But if she's the only one who knows how to lead clients through it, then its reach is limited. So she comes up with a plan to expand her empire.

• 10:14Sarah Hagi?

  Not long after opening the Philia Center, Thiel starts a certification program. Anyone who's interested can apply. No background in psychology or counseling required. Those who are accepted pay $3,400 for a four-day course taught by Thiel, often at the Philia Center in Costa Rica. And no, airfare is not included.

• 10:34Scaachi Koul?

  I have a journalism degree from an OK Canadian journalism university. I'm not saying my degree is important. But I will say that full semester at that school cost as much as this four-day course. I don't know which one's worth more, honestly. It's a toss-up. And you know, like, four days, I don't think it's enough. Oh, four days is not enough for anything. Even if you're going on vacation for four days, the first day, you're still stressed. And the last day, you're starting to get out of there.

• 11:05Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. And when they complete the course, their certificate is signed by Thiel and seemingly stamped with the Utah State seal. Dozens of people get certified and start taking on clients of their own. Some of them even make their own YouTube videos to share the techniques they use.

• 11:22Speaker 06

  This video is all about the completion process and how it can change your life.

• 11:28Sarah Hagi?

  Today, I have a special episode for my fellow CP practitioners, and especially for all the new ones that would like to have a bit more insight from an experienced practitioner. What Thiel's followers don't know is that the Utah State seal on their certificates is forged. And Utah isn't exactly happy about it. According to the Gateway Podcast, the state of Utah sends Thiel a cease and desist and a $500 fine for practicing without a license. But judging by her Facebook posts from around this time, she just keeps practicing. And soon, she'll face an even bigger threat to her business. More and more people are publicly questioning her methods and accusing her of running a cult.

• 12:15Sarah Hagi?

  In October 2017, a documentary called "Open Shadow: The Story of Thiel Swan" gets released online. The documentary paints her as a survivor of abuse who, against the odds, turned her pain and trauma into a kind of superpower. The director, Paola Marino, spent three years embedded with Thiel and her followers. Paola isn't a believer, but she is fascinated by Thiel's personality and passion. And Paola has incredible access. She even convinces Thiel's parents to do an interview, which is rare. They don't speak about her ritual abuse story on the record, but here's what her mom does say about Doc, the veterinarian Thiel says abused her for 13 years.

• 12:59Speaker 05

  We trusted somebody and his wife that we shouldn't have trusted. And that's a cautionary tale for everyone, that it can happen right under your nose and you don't know it.

• 13:08Scaachi Koul?

  Okay, well, it does seem like her parents believe that she was abused by Doc. And I'm not saying that he didn't abuse her. I just have doubts about him sewing her into a body.

• 13:19Sarah Hagi?

  I mean, it's clear her family accepts that something very bad happened to her.

• 13:24Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 13:25Sarah Hagi?

  And I don't know for sure, but it seems like Thiel's thrilled about "Open Shadow." At least, she seems inspired by the chance to speak directly to the concerns that her critics are posting online. Here's what she tells a documentary film cameras.

• 13:38Speaker 05

  I think for the sake of a good bout of self-exposure here, I will tell you that the most painful thing that a human being could say to somebody who came through occult experiences is that they're leading a cult. It's my least favorite thing that people say about me. It destroys me.

• 13:54Sarah Hagi?

  And haters have slammed Thiel's approach to suicide, even calling her "the suicide catalyst." They point to the experience of Lesley Waynesgaard. She's a woman we talked about in the last episode. She was one of Thiel's earliest clients and supporters who took her own life. Critics also bring up testimony from others who talked to Thiel about suicide. Up to this point, Thiel's strategy has been to not engage with her critics. But the pushback has gotten so intense, she feels like she has to respond directly. So, the same month the documentary is released, Thiel makes a nearly two-hour-long YouTube video responding to the more serious allegations.

• 14:35Speaker 05

  What I'm facing is not just people slandering me. What I'm facing is people who are actually... actively ruining my contracts and actively ruining my life.

• 14:44Sarah Hagi?

  In the video, she's wearing a white dress buttoned up to her neck. And she looks anxious, annoyed, and maybe even a little angry. Teal claims people tank the ratings of her books online and even call the police to report her. In the same video, Teal addresses the claim that her work has caused people to take their own lives.

• 15:06Speaker 05

  My strategies with how to deal with suicide are abnormal because it's an abnormal condition. One of the most crucial things that you have to do is to realize that, yes, you are at a choice point. It is your life. You get to decide whether to take it or not. And unless you realize that it's your choice, you can't actually consciously commit to life.

• 15:24Sarah Hagi?

  Teal claims people tank the ratings of her books online and even call the police to report her. She says she wants to be judged on her content, not all the controversy around her and her personal story. She adds disclaimers to some of her videos, like about how she's not providing medical advice. She also includes information on how to reach suicide hotlines. And in September 2019, she uploads a YouTube video called "Teal Swan Stands on Suicide." In it, she says,

• 15:55Speaker 05

  To be crystal clear, I'm against suicide.

• 15:59Sarah Hagi?

  Teal has forged her own path as a type of DIY new age guru who interacts with real people on an extremely personal level. But as her niche following grows, so does the criticism. Teal's in major brand crisis mode. She needs her inner circle to have her back. But when she tries to gain her biggest audience yet, it backfires in ways she could have never predicted.

• 16:39Speaker 04

  She was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, his trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand new update to the multi-award winning podcast, Who Killed Daphne? I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne wherever you get your podcasts, and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning ad-free with Audible.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari early and ad-free on Audible.

• 18:09Sarah Hagi?

  In July 2020, a little less than a year after Thiel uploaded a video about her stance on suicide, a new member joins her intentional community in Utah. Her name is Juliana, and she's from Bavaria in southern Germany. She's got long blonde hair and blue eyes. Juliana's main connection to Thiel and to Utah is Blake. Sachi, do you remember Blake from our last episode? Yeah, like Thiel was dating him or courting him or something like that, right? Yeah, he was her first ever follower. She showed up in his bathtub that one night when he was gone, and they dated for a year and then continued work relationships and so on. That's it.

• 18:51Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Juliana met Blake in 2017 at one of Thiel's workshops in Germany. They hit it off and kept in touch and eventually developed a long-distance relationship. After a couple of years, Blake asked Juliana to come to Utah to live with him, and Juliana decided to make the leap. This is a major deal in the world of Thiel's swan. Blake is a big part of Thiel's social media presence, and he has his own kind of following with Thiel's fans. People thank him for "saving Thiel's life." And now, he's bringing someone new into the mix. Juliana's arrival also leads to a major change at Thiel's swan headquarters. After nearly two decades of living with Thiel,

• 19:35Sarah Hagi?

  Blake moves into a new apartment with Juliana. But Thiel's nervous about letting Juliana into her inner circle. She tells Blake that he's taking a big risk. Anyone can decide to turn on Thiel and tarnish her reputation online, just like Sardip and Jared did.

• 19:52Scaachi Koul?

  This is like classic abuser stuff. Like, if you open your circle, anybody could take you away from me.

• 19:59Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, and I can see how Thiel can frame it as, you know, "I have all these enemies and..."

• 20:04Scaachi Koul?

  "People are coming after me. You have to protect me."

• 20:07Sarah Hagi?

  And also, like, how do I know she's not gonna just say shit about me online with all this access she has into our lives or leak something?

• 20:15Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 20:16Sarah Hagi?

  Well, despite her reservations, Thiel welcomes Juliana into the fold. She blogs about Juliana, saying she's brave and fierce for moving to Utah. And when Blake decides to ask Juliana to marry him, Thiel helps him figure out Juliana's ring size and plan a proposal in a hot air balloon. In November 2020, four months after Juliana moved to Utah, she and Blake tie the knot. She wears a long-sleeved, lacy gown and a tiara. They beam in each other's arms. Juliana is ready to start a new life with Blake. But being Blake's partner means being super close to Thiel. And she may not be ready for what joining Thiel's tribe really means.

• 21:02Sarah Hagi?

  Around this time, a documentary crew starts recording Thiel's every move. The filmmaker is named John Casby, and he's working on a mini-series for a major network. Thiel's clearly on edge about her haters, but she probably sees this film as a way to defend herself, to show that she has nothing to hide. So she allows the cameras access to her inner circle. The camera crew captures Juliana facing the stark reality of being part of Thiel's world. At some point, Thiel reportedly even introduces requirements for her followers, rules they agree to live by that are non-negotiable.

• 21:41Sarah Hagi?

  Former followers say it basically boils down to this: Thiel and her work always come first. Before family, before friends, before everything. Thiel tells Juliana that she can't even travel home to Germany to see her family. Thiel, by the way, later says in a video that she never discouraged Juliana from seeing or communicating with her family. But the people in Thiel's inner circle aren't just making an intense emotional investment. They're also working, seemingly for free. They're making content, building Thiel's website, and marketing her worldwide tours. Jennings Brown, the journalist who hosted the Gateway podcast all about Thiel Swan,

• 22:23Sarah Hagi?

  told us he had concerns about labor exploitation when he visited Thiel's filia center in Costa Rica.

• 22:29Speaker 04

  There were people that had kind of left their lives behind that were there, working for her for free, just all day. I mean, you never knew when you'd have to kind of drop everything and do some sort of shadow work with Thiel. And just as a journalist observing it, it was just psychically draining, emotionally draining.

• 22:46Sarah Hagi?

  Thiel's videos talk about maintaining healthy, personal boundaries. But when it comes to the team of volunteers making her workshops run, it seems there aren't any. Everything is about Thiel and what she needs. And under that kind of constant pressure to please her, some cracks are beginning to show.

• 23:08Sarah Hagi?

  Juliana's transition into Thiel's inner circle is not going smoothly. One day, the documentary film crew captures a tense moment between Thiel and Juliana. They're in a room at the Philia Center in Costa Rica. There are colorful frequency paintings all over the yellow walls. And let's just say, Thiel is vibrating at an especially intense frequency right now. She's going off on her haters, pissed that people are questioning her methods, and arguing that some of the criticism is sexist. Blake shifts in his chair. It looks like he's just waiting for Thiel's rant to end. Juliana stares up awkwardly at the ceiling, like she wants to teleport out of the room.

• 23:52Sarah Hagi?

  And then Thiel and Juliana erupt into a tense argument. Basically, Juliana pushes back against Thiel's aggressive teaching methods, and Thiel doesn't take it so well. She's seething, her jaw locked. Juliana glances at Blake, looking to see if he's got her back. But he doesn't say anything, at least from what we see in the documentary. He strokes his beard, visibly uncomfortable. Thiel, his chosen family, the person he's been loyal to for so long, is lashing out at his wife.

• 24:26Scaachi Koul?

  Okay, Blake better buck up for his wife. I hope that's how this ends.

• 24:31Sarah Hagi?

  Well, later, Thiel calls a group meeting with her inner circle to discuss the problems she's having with Juliana, who's also in the room. They're all sitting on the floor, Thiel's cross-legged, barefoot, and she launches right in. Here's how this scene plays out in the docu-series The Deep End.

• 24:49Speaker 05

  I am really angry today. I basically realized in the last few days that it's because a personal truth is not actually being shared. Juliana, that's what's happening with you. You feel like an adversary to me, and I need that to change.

• 25:07Scaachi Koul?

  I do not like the tone of this person's voice. But I can also see how this tone would be scary if you were in this woman's fold and you kind of believe her bullshit and your whole life is wrapped up in it, your husband's wrapped up in it. This would...

• 25:21Sarah Hagi?

  Make me nervous. Yeah, and when she says something like, "A personal truth is not actually being shared," she means my personal truth. Right. And it seems like the second you kind of push back, you are her adversary. Yeah. Well, Teal says that Juliana has been insulting her since the day she arrived in Utah, that it's, quote, "all over her energy field." Juliana says she's afraid, and Teal says she has a reason to be. Blake's eyes are fixed on Juliana as she speaks, but for a moment, he looks back to Teal. She looks like she's out for blood. She goes around the room and asks her inner circle what they think, and they tell Teal

• 26:02Sarah Hagi?

  what she wants to hear, that Juliana is threatened by Teal and jealous. Teal has contested her portrayal in "The Deep End," saying that many scenes were edited out of context for the sake of entertainment. The way it plays out in this scene, Blake rubs his face in disbelief. His legs are crossed, and he's sort of swaying. Eventually, he crosses a room to sit next to Juliana, who seems devastated. Blake looks like he's about to cry. He's spent nearly 20 years by Teal's side, but after this blow up, he decides he no longer wants to be involved. It's a big deal. Up to this point, he's played a huge role in Teal's company, her online community, and

• 26:47Sarah Hagi?

  her social media presence. After he leaves, Teal decides she needs to do some serious damage control. But what she does next will only make things more complicated. Private investigator Molly Monahan sits down at her computer and logs into a meeting from her home in Bellingham, Washington. Molly's a grandmotherly type with short gray hair, glasses, and red lipstick, and this is a big meeting for her. It's finally time to reveal the findings to her client. Teal's own team actually hired Molly to look into allegations that Teal is running a cult. Okay, so Teal hired her to look into... Teal?

• 27:32Sarah Hagi?

  Yes. Teal's team is probably hoping to put the allegations to bed once and for all, and to show the world they're doing their due diligence. Molly worked on a case about an alleged cult before. A spiritual teacher in Washington State hired her to do a report on one of his critics, and Molly's report found no evidence of a crime, and calls their biggest critic a malicious cyberstalker. For this investigation, Molly seemingly got unparalleled access to members of Teal's inner circle, including Blake. She also talked to former followers like Teal's ex-boyfriend Jared and people who've been critical of her online. Now, after nearly a year-long investigation,

• 28:18Sarah Hagi?

  Molly's ready to deliver her verdict. In the docu-series "The Deep End," Molly and Teal connect over video chat. Teal's sitting on a couch next to her PR manager. She's draped in a shawl and wearing dangly turquoise earrings. Molly reminds Teal that she was hired to answer two critical questions: Does she cause suicide? And is she leading a cult? After a brief pause, Molly delivers her verdict: "No," and "Maybe." Teal's blue eyes widen in surprise. Molly can tell that this is not what she was expecting to hear. She says she finds no evidence that Teal has caused anyone to die by suicide, but she goes through the list of things that caused her to suspect

• 29:02Sarah Hagi?

  Teal may be running a cult. For example, the conditions she puts on people coming to work for her. At some point in her investigation, it appears that Molly was provided a document of these rules, literally called "Teal's Non-Negotiables." They include Teal's expectations that people close to her prioritize Teal over their own family, that they aren't allowed to have personal boundaries that affect Teal in any way, and that if people want to have a normal life, they should not choose to be a part of her inner circle. Teal seemingly does not take this well. She gets visibly frustrated with Molly on the call and denies that she limits her followers'

• 29:42Sarah Hagi?

  relationships or pressures them to prioritize her above almost everything else.

• 29:48Scaachi Koul?

  Well, I mean, Teal has no one to blame but herself. She hired this woman to do this.

• 29:53Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, also, it's in your non-negotiables, Teal. What are you talking about?

• 29:57Scaachi Koul?

  Clearly.

• 29:58Sarah Hagi?

  After she hangs up the call, Molly probably feels a sense of relief wash over her. She's done with the hard part, breaking the news to Teal. But her words have fallen on deaf ears, and she suspects her findings will never see the light of day. But there was someone watching that call. In fact, an entire documentary crew. And they'll make the explosive exchange public, creating the greatest threat yet to Teal's reputation.

• 30:32Speaker 04

  Dr. Seuss's Cat in the Hat and Fish are back for a whole lot of wonderfully whimsical fun. What happens when you switch bodies with your best friend? Discover a caveman frozen in ice? Or make an alien so angry he threatens to destroy the planet? Find out in season two of the Cat in the Hat podcast. The Cat and Fish are traveling the world in the great catastrophic cacophony cruiser, meeting genies, clown professors, cave trolls, and extraordinary characters along the way. With clever wordplay, imaginative rhymes, original songs, and stories celebrating curiosity, empathy, and creative problem solving, every adventure brings something new to discover.

• 31:14Speaker 04

  It's a world of wonderful words, big imaginations, and plenty of heart for the whole family. Listen to the Cat in the Hat podcast wherever you get your podcast. Audible subscribers can binge all 20 episodes early and ad-free right now.

• 31:31Scaachi Koul?

  Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly.

• 31:53Speaker 07

  ...bear in present day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 32:23Sarah Hagi?

  When the docu-series The Deep End comes out on Hulu in May 2022, it gets a lot of press. Everyone from The Washington Post to Joe Rogan is talking about it. At times, Teal comes across as a new age mean girl. It shows how being in Teal's orbit can be psychologically challenging for the people closest to her. Teal is not happy with how she's portrayed. She fires back in a series of Facebook videos. She argues that the editing in the first episode of The Deep End is misleading, that it makes her come off as hard, dismissive, domineering, jealous, and angry.

• 33:03Speaker 05

  This episode did not show my softness, receptivity, workability, or humility. It didn't show the reality of my multifaceted personality.

• 33:12Sarah Hagi?

  In another response video, she says,

• 33:14Speaker 05

  I admit that just like anyone, I can get angry. But they showed my anger totally out of context to tell a story that isn't true, especially about my relationship with Blake and Juliana.

• 33:24Sarah Hagi?

  She says she feels misunderstood, and she probably feels betrayed too, after trusting the film crew and giving them full access to her life and her community. She even leaks a video of the filmmaker, John Casby, wishing her a happy birthday. Hope you're having a great day. I speak for the whole film crew.

• 33:43Speaker 03

  I say, we have so much appreciation and gratitude to you and everyone on your team for welcoming us into your lives and into your family.

• 33:51Sarah Hagi?

  Uh, yeah, this is, this is how documentary crews talk to their subjects when they want to maintain access. I think it's bad. I don't think this is a good way to talk to a subject that you don't agree with. Well, we reached out to the producers of The Deep End and they sent us this statement. "The series is an honest representation of what we experienced over three years. We were transparent with Teal and her team about every part of our process from shooting through editing. The results speak for themselves and we remain grateful to everyone who agreed to participate in the series." And even though Teal takes issue with how she's portrayed in the documentary, it does

• 34:31Sarah Hagi?

  raise her profile. She continues to pump out content on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok. In some ways, despite her haters, Teal Swan is bigger than ever.

• 34:45Sarah Hagi?

  Sachi, I've got some updates about what happened after the cameras stopped rolling. Blake and Juliana are still living in Utah and are now running a tourism company. According to his Facebook page, Blake is also working as a school bus driver. He hasn't said much about Teal's response to the film, and he declined to speak with us for the story. But Juliana's social media pages provide some insight into how she feels. She replies with "thank yous" on Instagram to people who said negative things about Teal.

• 35:17Sarah Hagi?

  I love that. It's so needless. It's really funny. Jared Dobson, Teal's ex-boyfriend, also appeared in The Deep End. He told us he's feeling "much better" but is still processing his experiences in Teal's community. That's great. I'm glad that there are some good.

• 35:34Scaachi Koul?

  Good endings in this wretched story.

• 35:36Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, and Teal is still making content for her roughly 1.5 million YouTube subscribers and her hundreds of thousands of followers on TikTok. Even with the bad press, her fanbase is continuing to grow. Say what you want about Teal, people are drawn to her and want to hear her message. Jennings Brown says he's heard from some of Teal's followers since his podcast came out. Some felt they've put a lot of time and money into her teachings, but wound up feeling worse. Other people feel Teal has truly helped them, and some say she's the reason they're alive today.

• 36:15Sarah Hagi?

  Well, this has been a real journey, Sachi.

• 36:18Scaachi Koul?

  I know.

• 36:19Sarah Hagi?

  Most of the other people we feature on this show had like this rise to greatness, and then they got caught and their empires crumble, but Teal's is very much still intact.

• 36:29Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, this is kind of a bummer end to this episode because there isn't a lot of accountability. It's maybe a testament to how lost a lot of people are. We're all just looking for some meaning.

• 36:42Sarah Hagi?

  You know, one thing she does say in the doc is that she wants to be like the most famous self-help guru person on earth.

• 36:52Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, this is a skill-free person who has no other mechanism to garner influence in the world. And so the only way she can do it is by like making up all these weird stories about how powerful she is. I mean, that's really what this comes down to, right? Like she thinks that she has some superiority over every other person in the world. She can speak to her own trauma and to other people's trauma unlike anybody else. And if you defy her, it's akin to defying a god.

• 37:23Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, it's kind of like this I'll show you thing of she will be the most famous person in the world when it comes to self-help.

• 37:30Scaachi Koul?

  The reality is that like what she is prescribing is not reasonable. It's not helpful and it has no merit in any kind of science. She'll never be the most famous anything because her backstory is I was once so Into somebody's body and left there for a day.

• 37:48Sarah Hagi?

  Well, here's the thing, not everything she says is totally bonkers.

• 37:51Scaachi Koul?

  No, certainly.

• 37:52Sarah Hagi?

  She says a lot of like, you know, basic, normal, self-help stuff. And I think

• 37:55Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 37:56Sarah Hagi?

  A lot of people see that and she gets, you know, a ton of views or whatever. She's like also operating in the space of like the TikTok sphere of psychologists who are telling you about boundaries and blah, blah, blah. That sounds so reasonable and people kind of just internalize it and move on type of thing.

• 38:11Scaachi Koul?

  Sure.

• 38:12Sarah Hagi?

  So it's also like pretty interesting that she's reaching people outside of her whole sphere of her teachings and everything. There's like also this level of it of just being an online person that she has. And I think that's pretty fascinating and I think that's kind of why she won't really stop, you know?

• 38:28Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, maybe she will subside off of these little blips of attention she gets if she like goes mini viral on TikTok for a day.

• 38:35Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I think that the thing is like, most people are staying at the middle level of like,

• 38:39Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 38:40Sarah Hagi?

  Here's someone who's experienced a lot in her life, a lot of bad. And she's talking about trauma in this way that feels very realistic and very personal. And that, you know, she helps people feel seen and she's very no nonsense in her delivery, which I think is also a huge draw for people. Like watching this documentary, I was just so drawn to seeing her life play out. Cause it just goes to show the lengths people will go through to feel like they belong. And it's like, you're picking Tiel Swan here?

• 39:10Scaachi Koul?

  I think this is someone who very clearly has a lot of trauma. And I don't know where that trauma is rooted and I don't know where it's from. And they have chosen to weaponize it against other people and has, I don't think she understands this, but she is behaving like an abuser. Because she actually isn't dealing with anything that's ever happened to her or any mental health struggle she's having or any emotional distress. She's just causing damage. I feel sorry for her.

• 39:38Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, there is one scene in particular in the docu-series, The Deep End, that really stuck out to me. Someone who's there asks her, one thing that I kind of question and wonder about is, and I'm paraphrasing is,

• 39:51Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 39:52Sarah Hagi?

  You know, where are your mentors? Who are the people you're listening to? And she obviously gets very upset by this question because she's like, what's the problem that there's no one I look up to? There's no one like me on earth. I've never met anyone smarter than me. So who am I going to follow? And why is that a problem for you? And you're like, oh, okay, there it is.

• 40:13Sarah Hagi?

  If anyone's claiming to be the smartest person in the world, it's probably not true.

• 40:17Scaachi Koul?

  Yep.

• 40:18Sarah Hagi?

  And I don't think the smartest person in the world really needs to tell you that they are.

• 40:23Scaachi Koul?

  You know what? That's actually the lesson. In a room, if you need help, look for a dummy. Look for a self-professed ding dong. That person probably knows what to do.

• 40:34Sarah Hagi?

  You know, sure, I'll let you have that.

• 40:36Scaachi Koul?

  Why? How do I know that? Because if I was in a room, I would tell everybody that I'm a genius and I don't know anything. So what you gotta do is look for the humble idiot. That person will probably have an answer.

• 40:49Sarah Hagi?

  Look for the Forrest Gump of the room.

• 40:50Scaachi Koul?

  That is a, listen, I'm kind of convinced that this is a Buddhist saying. Look for the quietest idiot.

• 40:57Sarah Hagi?

  All right.

• 40:57Scaachi Koul?

  Put it on a yoga mat. Do some downward dog.

• 41:03Scaachi Koul?

  Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.

• 41:14Sarah Hagi?

  This is The Memory Maker, Part Two. I'm Sarah Haggy.

• 41:18Scaachi Koul?

  And I'm Sachi Cole. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at [email protected].

• 41:25Sarah Hagi?

  We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were the Gateway Podcast, Conspirituality Podcast, The Mormon Stories Podcast, the documentaries The Deep End and Open Shadow, and Vice TV's episode on Thiel. And of course, Thiel's own books and videos, including Sculptor in the Sky, The Completion Process, and Shadows Before Dawn. Special thanks to Jared Dobson and Jennings Brown for taking the time to talk with us.

• 41:52Scaachi Koul?

  In this episode, we discussed sexual violence, depression, and suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline can be reached at 1-800-273-8255. The National Alliance on Mental Illness is available at 1-800-950-6264. If you or someone you know is a victim of sexual assault, you can contact the National Sexual Assault Hotline in the US by calling 1-800-656-HOPE. That's 1-800-656- 4673. Additional resources are available in our show notes.

• 42:27Sarah Hagi?

  Suzy Armitage wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Satya Cole and Sarah Haggy. Our senior producer is Jen Swan. Our producer is John Reed. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Peery. Our story editor and producer is Sarah Enni. Our story editor is Alison Weintraub. Sound design by James Morgan. Fact checking by Gabrielle Jrolay. Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Our music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Fries on Sync. Our managing producer is Matt Gant and our senior managing producer is Tonja Thigpen. Kate Young and Olivia Richard are our series producers. Our senior story editor is Rachel B. Doyle. Our senior producer is Ginny Bloom.

• 43:12Sarah Hagi?

  Our executive producers are Janine Cornolo, Stephanie Jens, Jenny Lauer Beckman, and Marshall Louie for Wondery.

• 43:29Speaker 04

  A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear. And then, boom, impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene, and the driver of the pickup, he doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.