‘Task’ Episode 6 Recap

Chris and Andy talk about the penultimate episode of ‘Task,’ discussing why it’s the best episode of the series to date, the tragic fates of many of its characters, Fabien Frankel’s standout performance, and what’s left ahead of the finale (1:00). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:30Speaker 03

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• 1:59Speaker 04

  I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 2:05Chris Ryan?

  And welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me on the other line, it's his house. He'll smoke if he wants to. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 2:19Andy Greenwald?

  That's literally you. First of all, I think that this is a very incredible episode of Task and a a serious one. And we need to treat it with the seriousness that it deserves. But I must say at the outset that Grasso's house did in some way remind me of the apartment that you and your not yet wife shared in Brooklyn, in which the the constant factor, whether it was summer or the dead of winter at your beautiful Christmas party, is the cracked kitchen window, around which everyone smoked. There were rules. They were respected.

• 2:54Chris Ryan?

  Andy, we are going to talk about episode six of Task, which was huge, which was momentous, which had a lot of stuff going on. So if you, for some reason, are tuning into The Watch and have not watched Task yet, stop what you're doing, go watch Task, and then you can come back and check us out. I want to get right into it, man. I have no banter. I have no amusing anecdotes. My amusing anecdote is this is one of my favorite shows of the year. This was, I think, the best episode of the series so far. It's called "Out Beyond Ideas of Wrongdoing and Rightdoing, There Is a River."

• 3:29Andy Greenwald?

  Is that a Songs of Ohio song? Like, what is that?

• 3:32Chris Ryan?

  You'd think. It's actually a line from a poem by the 13th century Persian poet, Rumi.

• 3:36Andy Greenwald?

  That's so weird. That was my second guess. That's...

• 3:41Chris Ryan?

  This one was written by Brad Inglesby and it was directed by Sally Richardson Woodfield, who also appears as the prosecutor when Maeve is being interrogated by Tom midway through the episode.

• 3:51Andy Greenwald?

  Shout out to Sally. Excellent work on both sides of the camera.

• 3:54Chris Ryan?

  She's wearing two hats in this episode. And it continues right where episode five left off with the standoff in the woods. And, you know, one of the more unrelenting, breathless, 15-minute sequences that I've seen on TV in a long time, or at least since, since, you know, the standalone episode of of adolescence in in the interrogation room. But just an incredible 15 minutes.

• 4:19Chris Ryan?

  Of a standoff in the woods.

• 4:22Andy Greenwald?

  I believe the title card appears at the 18 minute mark.

• 4:25Chris Ryan?

  So sick.

• 4:26Andy Greenwald?

  That is such a sick move.

• 4:28Chris Ryan?

  And if you're doing the SportsCenter version of it, Kathleen McGinty gets shot in the shoulder. Robbie is fatally stabbed by Jason. Lizzie is run over by an escaping Jason and Perry in a truck.

• 4:43Chris Ryan?

  And she dies in Grosso's arms despite him betraying the task force and everyone else. You know, moments, moments that like this show has been building towards. And it really, really delivers, you know, last episode was, you know, the heat diner scene essentially with, with Robbie and Tom in the car heading out towards this, this spot where, where Robbie had grown up and spent time with Billy as a kid on the Lehigh or in Lehigh. No, no, no, honestly, the use of lakes and rivers, I'm getting a little confused, but it is Buschville. I honestly have never been to Buschville. But this was the kind of action set piece that this show hadn't really touched on since,

• 5:29Chris Ryan?

  you know, Tom and Ray wrestling in a basement, kind of, and we haven't really, we've done a lot of talking and then we had some serious action. I kind of complained a little bit about, oh, you know, I think people have expected ending the episode with a bang. And they start the episode with a bang. So much to go over here, man. We want to just do general thoughts and impressions first?

• 5:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, I do want to talk about, obviously, the consequential moments of the episode. And in terms of the plot, in terms of the surprises, in terms of the masterful orchestra conducting that Brad Engelsby does here, regarding when, how, and where he deploys certain events.

• 6:11Chris Ryan?

  Certain things that are inevitable, but feel surprising because of where they're placed, maybe.

• 6:16Andy Greenwald?

  Surprising, but the flip side of inevitable is that that dangerous word earned. And it also helps clarify what show we've been watching in a way that I found very significant.

• 6:28Andy Greenwald?

  You know, it was. It's glib to say that task is Philly heat. I think there were, there were clear, clearly it's not just that. But I think you, to use the previous episode's car ride with Tom and Robbie as the

• 6:44Andy Greenwald?

  comparison point to the diner scene, like the diner scene is a lot of, it's, I mean, it's, it's Michael Mann men, right? Like they're kind of like eyeing each other up and they're, they're gauging each other. And it's kind of like a dick measuring contest in the best way with those actors. This is about two broken men like connecting over their shared humanity, which is a little bit more my speed. But then again, I haven't been to a diner in a minute.

• 7:06Andy Greenwald?

  So the fact that this show isn't about necessarily the mono a mono collision between these two guys. It's about the spider web fractal of violence and community and loss and regret and guilt is really meaningful to me in watching it and also feels exactly where the show should be and, and what the show should be. And the thing that I wrote down after watching most of it was, and this is my, this is my top down 100,000 foot statement that I kind of want to get your perspective on is that I just think there's something both beautiful and really, really healthy at this moment about a TV show that doesn't look away from the consequences of terrible things.

• 7:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:48Andy Greenwald?

  We are insensitized, desensitized to so much because of the scroll, because of the, just the nature of what's popular, what's grabby. And this is a show that gives us and earns, again, that, that tricky word. Robbie's would be father, daughter dance with Harper and shows Harper sobbing. Because her father has, as we learned at the end of the episode, essentially sacrificed himself for her future.

• 8:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:18Andy Greenwald?

  Grosso is a full human.

• 8:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:20Andy Greenwald?

  Who has done something unforgivable and has now in the last episode, you know, with the last episode ahead of us, has evolved into the show's villain in a, in a, in a very strong way. Even Jason, who is, you know, unequivocally the show's villain, who has murdered both Prendergrass brothers with his bare hands, basically.

• 8:35Chris Ryan?

  He's still a wife guy.

• 8:37Andy Greenwald?

  He's still a wife guy.

• 8:41Andy Greenwald?

  I, big picture, and maybe this is also like international picture. Like I, I just found at this moment in history and in also my travel schedule, I found the just like unshakable humanity of this show, both affecting, but also like a restorative.

• 8:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I wonder whether or not some of it is just the uncommon settings of some of these real breakthrough moments. I mean, I, I think I, I went into this series and I was like, oh, this is going to be the urban crime drama that Philadelphia has never really truly gotten. Like, it's gonna, there's, I don't know if I thought there was going to be a shootout on Broad Street, or a chase through the Italian market.

• 9:21Andy Greenwald?

  There almost was after Sean Payton's behavior on Sunday.

• 9:26Chris Ryan?

  But, this show is largely takes place in, in the natural world, and many of the insert shots, many of the cutaways are to birds and water and trees and the connection that these characters have to this, these places being places of peace for them. You know, in the previous episode, Ruffalo talked a lot.

• 9:49Andy Greenwald?

  They have places of peace, right? Like, even that is so fragile.

• 9:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and the idea that, like, Ruffalo is trying to relate to Robbie by describing the patterns of behavior of a bird that, that shouldn't be where it is, but could still find its way home. Or the way that Robbie releases Tom by sending him to a beautiful place that he has to get through by walking for a mile in the woods. And you just say, as someone who's not much of a hiker, that's not an easy walk, like, a mile in the woods.

• 10:21Andy Greenwald?

  It's more the woods part than the mile, I think, but yeah.

• 10:23Chris Ryan?

  In any case, there's just, you know, this is also the setting, obviously, for this incredibly violent exchange between the bikers, Robbie, and the task force. But it's really striking how much of this show has decided to take place in an incredibly idyllic setting, and what it's trying to do with that. I thought that a lot of the repeated imagery, Robbie jumping into the quarry, of birds flying, of whatever, like, obviously get brought back up in his last few seconds of life in a way that I thought was quite beautiful and quite earned. You know, like, that can often be the, like, ah, yes, I'm touching wheat as

• 11:01Chris Ryan?

  I walk into, you know, Valhalla. But, this was, this felt very much like they did the work to get to that moment of release. And even more so, the fact that Robbie had been basically, like, asking

• 11:18Chris Ryan?

  Tom, what happens when you die? Like, what do you see? What do people seem to behave like? Because he fucking knows in the backseat of that car, he might as well have basketballs in that duffel bag. He is not bringing drugs. He does not expect to get out of this thing alive. He knows that he's signing up for his, that's his plan. So his interest in how do people feel when they die? What do you do when people die? Like, that's real because he knows that's what's about to happen.

• 11:46Andy Greenwald?

  I also think it's significant that his dream of escape, a dream that you, I think, really smartly pointed out is just punctured like a balloon instantly by a 21-year-old when he says it out loud to her. The dream of going to Canada, like an unspoiled green wilderness. It really made me reconsider all of that because he lives in an abundant, green, beautiful wilderness. Or he grew up in one. So it's really about returning to the innocent self. It's about returning to a time of before sin, basically.

• 12:18Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 12:19Andy Greenwald?

  And that place doesn't really exist. It's in brochures or it's in the Bible, maybe. You know, I find like, when people, I have seen like online, some people casually dismissing the show. Not that they don't like it, but that it's just like a HBO classed up version of a more typical procedural. And I just think that that's to be, to be, you know, with all due respect, I think that's really missing the point.

• 12:45Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 12:45Andy Greenwald?

  I think that this show is a very, very thoughtful and at times beautiful and profound meditation on life and loss. And it supports and allows this kind of like, the kind of stuff that we used to like to do in college English classes. Oh, well, this imagery is significant because it represents a prelapsarian time when, like, all that bullshit that we don't do anymore because we don't even write, we just talk on podcasts. But it does feel like we could go back to some of that. I mean, you're reading spirituality books, you know?

• 13:14Chris Ryan?

  Because of this, though.

• 13:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 13:16Chris Ryan?

  The fucking episode is named after a line from a Rumi poem. Come on.

• 13:21Andy Greenwald?

  That, you know, that Tom talks about this bird and then a bird distracts Robbie. Is it, is that? Earthly business, or is that inevitable, like the way of the natural world goes? I don't know, but I think it's worth talking about because we've been praising Brad's architecture skills throughout the whole season. And so I feel like it's worth diving into just exactly what he did here because in addition to playing, you know, I've been saying this for years and I'm not the only one saying it, playing one of the most effective and still underutilized cards in the show running deck, which is show your hand early or kill someone before you think it's time

• 14:02Andy Greenwald?

  or, you know, time is really the thing that, that, that is still most potent, I think, for showrunners in terms of breaking through to a jaded audience. In addition to doing all of that and, you know, along with Sally and the, the crew, like designing this incredible action sequence, he also rope-a-doped us because everything was so full on, I can't be the only one who didn't really think about Shelley. I didn't think about that business. I just.

• 14:29Chris Ryan?

  The only reason I thought about it really more than once is that Mickey Sumner is very good and why would you have her do one and a half scenes, you know?

• 14:38Andy Greenwald?

  But she had came, but she, she's there for what? She has one line, but the fact that everything about the, like I found, you know, a minute ago, I'm talking about how, how beautiful and profound and how moved I was by how like bleak at the show sometimes is. No moment maybe more so than when Robbie has his revenge and then he too gets killed by the same monster that ruined his life.

• 15:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Andy Greenwald?

  Only to find out, as you were alluding to, that this entire thing was a suicide play and that the money was already secured and it was about keeping his family clean.

• 15:16Chris Ryan?

  Maybe there was a, maybe he hoped to get out of those woods. I don't think he seemed surprised by the amount of motorcycle guys shown, who showed up. I do think he was surprised that the task force found him and I do think he would, he was hindered by the fact that Grosso was doing Chip Kelly hand signals all over the place to get guys to like, do this, don't do that, do not take a shot at Lizzie.

• 15:41Andy Greenwald?

  Talk about traitors to Philadelphia.

• 15:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you, you know what? There's something about how a lot of what happens in this episode feels inevitable. Like I did not assume Robbie was going to get out of this series alive.

• 15:51Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 15:53Chris Ryan?

  And I didn't think everybody from the task force was going to live. I don't think I foresaw it being as not random, but seemingly arbitrary in terms of its circumstances, the way that Lizzie died. But the connection that she and Grasso, I think sincerely had, I don't think that that was part of the assignment. I think all he had to do is just be like, they're coming for you here. You're, you know, like, he obviously opens himself up to her. The arbitrary nature of the way that she dies in a car crash rather than in a shootout, you know? I mean, not crash, but she, she gets run over. She is run over and she can't.

• 16:35Chris Ryan?

  And the reason she gets run over is because she can't hear the truck coming because Grasso is fired off a gun right by her head. So she's lost her ear drum. I kind of, you know, I figured Aaliyah or Lizzie would probably die out there or McGinty. But this show isn't about those kinds of moments. It's about the moments afterwards. And that's what you're, you're, you're hitting at the reconciling and dealing with violence. The set piece works better because we are now going to spend an hour and a half thinking about and talking about what happened. And there may be some shootout in the finale and it may be Jason versus Perry versus Grasso versus Tom versus Aaliyah.

• 17:19Chris Ryan?

  But I think that it, it's so much more effective to think about it in terms of like these people's, these characters' lives go on, even if the series ends, you know? And even when Maeve gets that money at the end, which would be the end of any, of 90% of versions of this show is Maeve gets a huge bag of money and it, I think Maeve's in trouble, man. Yeah. She's 21 years old, raising these kids. Fucking drug money now. And a lot of people are watching it or looking for it. And it was so important to Jason that Jason was like still out there eating, eating peri trout. Trout, Alan Perry.

• 18:00Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think, well, I have two quick side questions for you, digressive questions for you. One, are you excited for the day in 20 years when Brad Inglesby announces that he's making Task Two with Leonardo DiCaprio in the Maeve part about what happens to the money? I feel like that's just, yeah, let's just book it in advance. Get your tickets in Vista Vision. And the second question, as I did wonder, like, sometimes, you know, often around where I am right now, in the beautiful city of London, you and I will like indulge little fantasies of like, oh, what if just two chums shared a flat for a time and, you know, split the G together on occasion or whatever. Do you think we could have hung in a Perry and Jason type way? Like, I feel like that would be a recipe for the end of a 29 year friendship.

• 18:45Chris Ryan?

  I do think it would be really funny if I was just, you're still, you just keep getting on your phone. Why are you doing that?

• 18:50Andy Greenwald?

  I'm trying to make you dinner. Show some respect. Just some wet fish from straight from the river.

• 18:57Chris Ryan?

  That's not where I saw this show going. I didn't see this show going in like a weird, like, all of these people are trapped with their own decisions now. Grasso is...

• 19:06Andy Greenwald?

  There are people, there are writers, I'm sure in any medium, but let's talk specifically about television. There are writers who are obsessed with plot, and there are writers who are obsessed with aesthetics, and there are writers who are obsessed with style, and there are writers who are obsessed with surprises. And those are all valid, and they're examples in each category of shows that I love. What's clear about Brad Inglesby is he's obsessed with life. He can't stop drinking from the cup of life, like in some sort of dramatic religious analogy that I can't quite pull off here. Everyone is given a full life. Everyone exists in always all at once. Like you're saying, Jason is a wife guy, but like, everyone is the totality of their experience. Tom and Robbie didn't need to get along,

• 19:51Andy Greenwald?

  but they did, and their behavior afterwards reflected that. You know, Grasso absolutely really cared about Lizzie, but he also is a flawed and failed person who is trying to have everything all at once and make it work out, which doesn't seem to ever work out for anyone at any point in the show. I, you said that, and you're right, that like the Lizzie death felt sort of random, but I have to say that...

• 20:13Chris Ryan?

  I'm not really ready to talk about it yet.

• 20:14Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I'm gonna check in. I just wanted to say that I was more prepared maybe than you were because early in the episode, like, super early, Crosso says, "Lizzie, stick with me." And I was like, "Ah, shit." That's the McVane moment right there. That's a wrap on her.

• 20:30Speaker 03

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• 22:28Andy Greenwald?

  So talk me through your feelings.

• 22:30Chris Ryan?

  Well, I thought I thought it was a great character and I think it speaks to a larger conversation that probably people are going to have after this episode of like, why were these people put on a task force in the first place? You know, because with the exception of Aleah, they seem to have some, some questions about

• 22:49Andy Greenwald?

  Some red flags.

• 22:50Chris Ryan?

  Preparedness, yeah. Aleah, obviously like all about her business, has this sharpshooting background, seems like she's a pretty good detective investigator.

• 23:01Andy Greenwald?

  She got her badge in her nickname.

• 23:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. But Lizzie has a bad reputation among her fellow state troopers as being a little bit of a nervous Nellie when it comes to when, when shit goes down. And Grasso has something in his file.

• 23:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Chris Ryan?

  That is like, is known to possibly tip off dark hearts FYI.

• 23:24Andy Greenwald?

  There's two, two strands of thought there, right? One is being asked to join a task force is not nearly as special as you and I may have thought it was.

• 23:34Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 23:34Andy Greenwald?

  That everyone's always getting pulled into task forces. It's like being a sophomore in college and someone saying, want to join my band.

• 23:39Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 23:39Andy Greenwald?

  Like everybody does a time, everybody picks up a bass once in a while, at least

• 23:43Chris Ryan?

  Who among us did not play psychedelic country for two great weeks, you know?

• 23:47Andy Greenwald?

  Two of the best weeks of your life. The other alternative, and this is something that I'm legitimately asking you because I haven't read anything about this episode yet, and I also am in the dark, and I don't know if that's good or bad, is, is McGinty still sus? Because we felt that way and then it seemed to, she seemed to be cleared a little bit by the Grasso stuff, but doesn't her still being a little bit compromised cover for the motley makeup of the task force? I feel like putting-

• 24:16Chris Ryan?

  Possibly. I mean, I think that I'm, I'm open to anything happening. I would say that the difference between-

• 24:23Chris Ryan?

  Task and Mare is is found in this kind of construction where Task is a crime show and a lot of a lot of what is happening is evident to viewers if it's not evident to the characters. So the viewers know that Crosso is the mole before Tom does. I think the viewers know Cliff is dead before Robbie does, you know, like there's

• 24:45Andy Greenwald?

  We see it.

• 24:46Chris Ryan?

  It's a totality of like this sort of these dozen characters and what they're going through and what they're doing and what they're thinking. We know that Aaron's dead before Jason does.

• 24:55Andy Greenwald?

  Still doesn't know.

• 24:56Chris Ryan?

  Who killed Aaron and Jason does not. Mare was more of a detective show.

• 25:02Andy Greenwald?

  You're talking about Mare of Easttown, Brad's first show.

• 25:04Chris Ryan?

  Mare of Mare of Easttown was more about this woman looking for the killer of a young girl. And as things were revealed, they usually happened in the order that Mare herself was finding them. The viewer and Mare were on the same page. So I think that there's elements of it that may may make you second guess. And and one thing that Inglesby is doing in this show that I think is successful sometimes, and every once in a while I bump against, is the someone is about to find out a very important piece of information, but the show is going to cut away from that.

• 25:39Andy Greenwald?

  Well, yeah, but that's TV 101.

• 25:41Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 25:41Andy Greenwald?

  I get it. I hear you. I mean, it's for me, stuff like that is baked into the concept when you make a detective or a crime show, and it's just a question of how artfully you hide it. And, you know, look, there's a character on the show who's a magician. And so maybe there's some projection there that likes how Brad sees himself, you know? Please come to my show. One thing I wanted

• 26:02Chris Ryan?

  My point was really more that like the way that he is making it and the way that we are being given this information, sometimes before the characters, is that it creates a more of a sense of inevitability and tragedy about it. Because you're like, I know, hey, man, Robbie, like, this is about to be the most popular woods in America. Like, you please don't go here. But he's, he's got a destiny, you know, he's got, he's got something he's moving towards. And I think

• 26:29Chris Ryan?

  You know, the idea that the show is going to be about Tom finding Robbie and instead it's almost going to be Tom finding peace for Robbie.

• 26:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 26:37Chris Ryan?

  Is pretty amazing.

• 26:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, I think two quick, well, one quick thing and one longer thing. The quick thing is just, there was a really artful reprise of the crazy Robbie thing. Crazy Robbie always trying to find a way to, what was it, to save his life, to change his life. I wrote it down. I just can't find it in my notes. This, people are who they are.

• 27:01Chris Ryan?

  Which is what Perry referred to him as in episode.

• 27:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and you're like, wait, what?

• 27:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:06Andy Greenwald?

  And then that's how people see him because we're introduced to him as someone who is quirky and interesting and maybe, maybe biting off a little bit more than he can chew, but he, the nature of television is we're right there with him. So we just kind of trust him. Oh, Cliff likes him. We like him too. That put an era, that added an air of tragedy and inevitability to his art, for sure. Realizing that everyone was kind of like, this guy's, this guy's just going to keep trying and we don't think he's ever going to get there. This subtle reveal that the show actually isn't a two-hander.

• 27:42Andy Greenwald?

  It's the Tom Show was, I think, kind of beautiful and felt surprising in a way. And I don't say that to diminish Tom Helfries' performance because it's one of the best performances of the year. And I think Emmy voters are going to agree with me on that.

• 27:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, all they have to do is watch, watch his scene with the margarita Laveva when he finds out Cliff's dead.

• 28:02Andy Greenwald?

  This is such a sneaky good Ruffalo performance. And one of the things that is a hallmark of Ruffalo's, you know, 25-year career is that you could say that about all of his best performances because he's such an un-showy actor. The spotlight speech aside, like, he is just, he just sinks into things and he just embodies a kind of conflicted morality, but always erring towards good that I think is really, really compelling. And so his performance, the pairing of the two, we've talked about, is so brilliant that he's just such a steady, speaking of bass, like a steady bass drum underneath the more frantic snare of like what Robbie's doing with Cliff. And to have it emerge into this solo and realize that this has been about, I mean,

• 28:46Andy Greenwald?

  everyone's the main character of their own story, but he becomes the main character and his story becomes the main story of the show of redemption. And I think that Ruffalo is astonishing in this episode. Like he has big action moments and it's clobbering the shit out of Perry. And it's like, whoa, I didn't know Tom had that in his bag. But what he then goes through in the aftermath, and you see the priest emerge again in terms of like giving Robbie last rites. And then there is a moment, and I know, I feel like you had, you lost Alice and Oliver's performance. And so you went through your grieving process.

• 29:17Chris Ryan?

  I didn't.

• 29:18Andy Greenwald?

  And you were, you were emotional, maybe uncharacteristically so. It could be the jet lag. I miss my kids. But when he, when Tom comes home with Sam, and again, we were joking over text last night, we both watched the episode and you were like, well, the inevitable happened in a compelling way. And I was like, oh, it's Tom adopting Sam, which felt inevitable from the beginning. I don't have receipts. I didn't say it on the podcast. It just felt like something that we were headed towards. But he shows up and he's got a Batman Lego and he goes in the kitchen to make peanut butter and jelly and his daughters who are now united in a really beautiful way. And again, this is a subtle thing. Clearly Brad has multiple children because a sign of a healthy home is the children conspiring against the adult.

• 29:58Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 29:58Andy Greenwald?

  And not being on the adult side anymore, being like on each other's side, which is sort of beautiful and subtle and definitely recognizable, I would say, as a hashtag girl dad. But he's making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and they're, they're saying like, why are you doing this? Is this a, why did you do this? Are you sure this is a good idea? And I'm sure the audience is saying that as well. And he basically says, I saw him in this place, this awful hopeless place, and I thought about your mother and I thought, what would she do? And the best answer I could come up with was to bring him home. Now does anyone else?

• 30:28Chris Ryan?

  Doesn't he say something like, there's no way she would let him be there? Like, she would never let this guy stay in this place. Yeah.

• 30:35Andy Greenwald?

  And now does anyone else want a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? And it got super dusty in this London executive apartment.

• 30:42Chris Ryan?

  Well, it's just like, and the totality.

• 30:44Andy Greenwald?

  It was a beautiful.

• 30:45Chris Ryan?

  The totality of the experience of watching Tom basically get this second lease on life from Robbie, because Robbie is, you know, they do this car ride, they talk about Team Susan or Team Tom and, and what happens after you die and birds and.

• 31:05Chris Ryan?

  Tom thinks he's gonna be killed. He's gonna be executed out in the woods by Robbie. And he's just like, just let me talk to my kids. Let me talk to my kids. And Robbie's like, I'm gonna actually send you somewhere beautiful, you know?

• 31:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 31:18Chris Ryan?

  And he lets him go and he makes him walk through the woods and that, his emergence from those woods seems to revive not only his ability to be a police, a law enforcement officer or an agent, but also a father and also a communicator and somebody who's like opening up his heart. And maybe that's also what happens after Robbie dies in his arms. You know what I mean? Like, he's given this gift that allows him to return to who he was. I mean, think about like, he's now got two kids in his house. He has now got another third child that he is essentially fostering. He's pursuing this case outside of like, what is just the bare minimum of what is required

• 32:00Chris Ryan?

  from him in his job. He's like, no, I'm gonna go to Kathleen's house. I'm gonna keep looking after this. And then he goes after Grasso in what was, I thought, a wonderful scene. Like, yes, it is the third time Grasso has pointedly asked about the Catholic Church. But I actually thought it was pretty cool that Grasso wasn't like, I didn't do anything. Like, that he was like, is that a rhetorical question? Or are you really asking me? And it's like, what can you prove versus what do you know? Is the whole thing.

• 32:25Andy Greenwald?

  Before we get there, just to say like, this entire series is above my religious pay grade. Like, there is something that strikes me as profoundly Catholic about all of it in ways that I don't.

• 32:39Chris Ryan?

  I'll let you know when I get to the chapter that explains.

• 32:41Andy Greenwald?

  I was gonna ask if you could talk me through it. And maybe, you know, if we get a chance to talk to Brad again, we can talk specifically about this stuff because the idea of life and death as connected as a circle is, you know, is stitched into every fabric of, stitched into the very fabric of the show. Tom lost his wife and essentially lost his son in the process. Robbie kills Sam's parents and takes Sam. And all of this awful, awful, deeply felt death leads to Sam snuggling up and falling asleep safe for the first time in maybe many years in his life in Tom's house.

• 33:24Andy Greenwald?

  And, you know, that's what I think anyone who's ever lived or gone through any kind of grieving process.

• 33:31Andy Greenwald?

  Clings to and comes out the other side of it's like we have we have life still we have more life and we have to make the most of it when we have it and I just I found that again I found it very affecting I found it very moving and I feel lucky about the show because it gave me the action highs and it gave me this

• 33:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that

• 33:51Andy Greenwald?

  Gut punch of emotion.

• 33:51Chris Ryan?

  Even I think sometimes like Catholic imagery and religious imagery and crime stuff can be it can be a sign of heavy handedness.

• 33:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. It has been both in the work of Dennis Lane.

• 34:03Chris Ryan?

  I think at one point in the fifth episode when Shelley and Robbie meet in the beginning of the episode and Robbie's like, why should I trust you and Shelley is like, here, I have this plan. We're gonna sell the drugs on our on our own. He's like, why should I trust you? And she's like, because I'm a good person. And he goes, Jesus Christ. And I'm a good person, or am I a good person, or are we bad people is like a very, very, very overworked trope in in crime television and in prestige television over the years. But I don't know, this show just kind of earns those kinds of discussions. And I think

• 34:41Chris Ryan?

  that when Grosso is asking about confession and talking about like the nature of like, you know, unburdening himself and Tom just says like, confessions for human beings, like God doesn't care.

• 34:56Andy Greenwald?

  Confessions are for humans, a human practice to help us with our shame. It's not for God's sake. If you want to be forgiven, all you have to do is ask.

• 35:03Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Yes.

• 35:04Andy Greenwald?

  About that scene.

• 35:06Chris Ryan?

  And then like a vengeful God, Tom's like, if you're not gonna come clean with me, I'm coming for you.

• 35:11Andy Greenwald?

  Pretty ballsy to show up at the new bad guy's house.

• 35:15Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 35:16Andy Greenwald?

  Alone, especially now that you've taken on the charge of a traumatized eight year old boy.

• 35:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:22Andy Greenwald?

  But you gotta make, I mean, it's still gotta be a TV show. I respect it. One thing I want to say, I want to, I want to make sure that this is on the record, that I will no longer be slandering Sir Kristen Cole.

• 35:36Chris Ryan?

  He's got it.

• 35:40Andy Greenwald?

  It is an incredible thing when you realize that your only experience with an actor is seeing them essentially in a corset, or like, in his case, like a very tightly fitting armor. I'm not saying he's bad on that show, I'm saying, what is he doing? And it's certainly not, we've been talking a bunch over the last few weeks about shows or directors that understand the actors that they cast, and how to showcase them and unlock them and unleash them, like Ethan Hawke in The Lowdown, or whatever, or Tom Pelfrey here, or actually, most of this, Amelia Jones, who's maybe the MVP of the entire series, we haven't even mentioned her much today.

• 36:19Andy Greenwald?

  He's so good. He is just purely good in the show. Bobby and Frankel, like, English actor, who is just understanding the assignment. And I feel like, maybe we'll ask him about this, but like, I just, without naming names, I bet they auditioned a lot of people who thought they were auditioning for Delco Heat, you know, and were playing, not to the cheap seats, but playing to the popular seats. And this guy is so haunted. He's just deeply haunted throughout. And the turn from calling him boss, and seeming to be really like the supplicant, like going to him for confession, to the devil is so elegantly done.

• 37:04Chris Ryan?

  Did you like the scene between Grasso and his county detective boss, who's also obviously in cahoots with the dark arts, and them talking about, and like, Grasso just being like, "She died in my arms," and like...

• 37:19Andy Greenwald?

  He's like, "Forget her."

• 37:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:20Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, it was a good scene. Lot of yinglings, lot of yinglings, morning, noon, and night, which I don't necessarily disrespect. One thing I'm learning, you know, when you get like, TV brain, when you see shows too close to each other, and like, after, I watched this, and then I watched The First House of Guinness, and I was like, "Boy, men do not like to have liquid poured on them." Like, that is just like, a real violation, to get your head in the sink, or have a drink thrown in your face. Yeah, I like that scene, but like, I guess the other thing to say about the surprise...

• 37:52Andy Greenwald?

  Like finding out where we are in the show, like all these things happened and then it pivots into kind of a different type of story for the last episode. The proof that it works and it's a leap of faith, shout out Catholic Church, it's a leap of faith that they would get to episode six and take the one A on the call sheet off the board and essentially solve many aspects of the task force's case. And I don't feel diminished. Like I'm not thinking that it's going to be like in the grand tradition of The Wire, where the last episode's like a long denouement. Like that is not the case. We are dealing with something deeper from a different perspective than we had previously realized.

• 38:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I haven't watched, obviously, we have not watched the finale, but given what we know now about what this show is really about and given what even Tom and Grosso talk about in Grosso's house, you have to assume that Ethan's court hearing is coming up and that is going to be about like physician heal thyself. Like you can't just go around telling people, you know, what happens when you die and how forgiveness works.

• 38:59Andy Greenwald?

  Without.

• 39:00Chris Ryan?

  Without reckoning with your own family. And that might be what this fucking show is about. Like the Perry and Jason and Grosso stuff could get wrapped up in five minutes. It's really going to be about like, is this guy's soul capable of being revived?

• 39:14Andy Greenwald?

  I can't be the only one who thought that when there's the shot of Tom walking into not Covenant House, but essentially the juvie where Sam's being held, that I thought he was going into the prison. That's not a this episode thing. You're right about Perry and Jason, like all Jason has to do is figure out what happened with Aaron and then that's a, that's a wrap on Uncle Pear.

• 39:33Chris Ryan?

  Do you think we're going to get much of an explanation as to like how they, how Grosso comes, comes to be a departed style like.

• 39:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I do because I, I think there's a lot more there and that, like that character is going to reveal himself and like I said, has suddenly, he's the villain now in a show that doesn't really do villains other than, I mean Perry and Jason are villains, but they still love their ladies, you know?

• 39:58Chris Ryan?

  Anything else from this episode? I mean, I have a bunch of stuff that I thought was just really lovely, like or well done. I mean, obviously Lizzie's death, her whole like.

• 40:09Chris Ryan?

  Sequence of events in the woods, getting basically like terrified and then killing Shane when Shane obviously thinks that Grosso is gonna stop her from pulling the trigger. That quick moment where Shane is just like, I'm gonna kill her, I'm gonna get her and Grosso's like, if you touch her, you're fucking dead, you know? His efforts to protect her while also trying to do whatever he's trying to do out there. I mean, I don't think he wanted the bikers there in the first place because he had told Jason, he's got an agent with him, don't come out here. And look, man, I mean, like, that's a fucking brutal death scene for Lizzie. I will note with, you know, getting hit full speed by a pickup truck, I don't think

• 40:53Chris Ryan?

  you'd look as lovely and peaceful afterwards as with Grosso holding her.

• 40:58Andy Greenwald?

  I respect the fiction.

• 40:59Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 40:59Andy Greenwald?

  I was grateful for the fiction. Alison Oliver, get your flowers.

• 41:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:04Andy Greenwald?

  Incredible, incredible 110% commitment performance. I watched Conversation with Friends and you could have given me 10 guesses about what I would see her do next and none of them would have been this.

• 41:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:19Andy Greenwald?

  And I liked that show fine.

• 41:21Chris Ryan?

  And that was just great when Alia finds the bullseye patch, you know?

• 41:25Andy Greenwald?

  Heartbreak, beautiful. I love the Maeve confession scene. I think Amelia Jones is just god tier. And I love the writing and I love just enough, you know? Like, I find myself in two-handed scenes like that. I was like, is she just gonna say, that's the same guy who killed my dad? Now he's taken everyone away, but she did it in a look, you know? And so when you have a chance, when actors take dialogue off the board, not saying that line was written, but it could have been and it wasn't necessary. I love that.

• 41:59Chris Ryan?

  I also love Maeve's release, like when she gets home.

• 42:03Andy Greenwald?

  I do too. There was, again, that reminded me of Mare in the sense that like, I think some people who were watching that show also as like a crime show or procedural were like, oh, it's a little bit fantasy at the end. Like, it's a little bit rewarding, but I'm like, these people deserve a reward. Like, I think that Brad is essentially optimistic about life, even though the shows are quite dark.

• 42:23Chris Ryan?

  It is funny you say that, though. I did read a little bit of ambiguity in the reaction where she was like... Now I'm the mother of of two

• 42:31Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:32Chris Ryan?

  Small children.

• 42:34Andy Greenwald?

  It's exactly it is. It is. It's hugging you and it's hitting you. I mean, it's it's better for the world. Tom is factually right when he says that. But it's not like her life gets that much easier, even then, when the drug cash shows up. I liked how strongly Tom kept saying wissahickin.

• 42:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:51Andy Greenwald?

  That's a word, you know, I we used to hear a lot in our life and 20, 30 years go by.

• 42:56Chris Ryan?

  And we just have to wait for an HBO series to say it a lot. That was pretty much all I had for this one. As far as like unanswered questions, like we've kind of gone over them. Perry and Jason are still out there. The Aaron mystery, to the extent that there is one, we're just waiting for Jason to put two and two together. And then it's Grosso and his boss and whether or not the boss will get implicated. And and just

• 43:19Chris Ryan?

  where's Freddie? Because we've spent some time with Freddie. And

• 43:25Chris Ryan?

  look, I I think that there is some chatter out there about this not being a limited series. So

• 43:31Andy Greenwald?

  There was chatter about mayor, too, and mayor remained a limited series.

• 43:34Chris Ryan?

  Season three, we bring the two, the two houses of Philadelphia together.

• 43:38Andy Greenwald?

  Jesus Christ, don't tell me you have a good time.

• 43:41Chris Ryan?

  Mayor of Task Town.

• 43:43Andy Greenwald?

  Mayor of Task Town.

• 43:44Chris Ryan?

  I wonder whether or not they would let anything be the is Grosso in the wind is

• 43:50Andy Greenwald?

  Is there going to be anything dangling? Yeah, sure.

• 43:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:53Andy Greenwald?

  I I don't think so.

• 43:55Chris Ryan?

  I don't think so either, but it does. I thought I thought the thing that jumped out at me most was McGinty saying, I'm not going to put you up for my job. But maybe she will.

• 44:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, well, let's find out what her intentions are.

• 44:11Chris Ryan?

  Great to talk to you, man. We'll be back on Thursday with some more Watch Pod stuff. Everybody enjoy task. I hope you're very enjoying task.

• 44:19Andy Greenwald?

  That would be a weird way to

• 44:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and I can't wait to talk about the finale with you.

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