Louis Theroux

We have documentary legend, Louis Theroux joining us for dinner this week. After getting a puncture on his bike cycling round to Clapham, we sat down for a 3 course dinner served up by mum which included her famous chicken soup. We heard all about when he lived in a brothel, his love of spaghetti hoops and evolving from fussy eating, being born in Singapore, getting a first class degree at Oxford, working with porn stars and we discover his first job was working for a glass blower in Boston! We’re pleased to report that Louis has now fixed his bike and had it fully serviced - looking forward to seeing you out on the roads - or just come by for another glass of wine Louis! Season 4 of The Louis Theroux Podcast is available everywhere now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Jessie Ware?

  Hello and welcome to Table manners. I'm Jessie Wood and I'm here with my mum Lenny. We're in Clapham.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:08Jessie Ware?

  And we are very excited about this guest.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  So excited.

• 0:11Jessie Ware?

  Now, we're doing this on a Friday night, which is Lenny's favourite time to podcast. Because you can have a little drink. Have a little drink. I'm really excited about this guest, but I am slightly nervous. We're about to be faced with one of the best interviewers ever. He's brilliant and I'm feel like we're really gonna have to learn how to master the interview in front of Louis Theroux tonight.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Well, he's a master of the interview.

• 0:37Jessie Ware?

  Yes, he is.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:38Jessie Ware?

  And you know what he does, mum?

• 0:39Speaker 01

  What, darling?

• 0:40Jessie Ware?

  He lets the person speak.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  That'll be novel for us.

• 0:45Jessie Ware?

  Speak for yourself, lady.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll try my best.

• 0:47Jessie Ware?

  So he enjoys the silence.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  So we're going to try and out silence him.

• 0:53Jessie Ware?

  It's basically a silent retreat, isn't it?

• 0:54Speaker 01

  It's gonna be you and me looking at him, not speaking. And we'll see who gives in first. It's like Don't Blink.

• 1:01Jessie Ware?

  Yeah. Yeah. I give us three seconds.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  But you don't like silences, darling.

• 1:09Jessie Ware?

  Neither do you. They do make me nervous.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  I don't mind silences.

• 1:15Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  No, I think you'll find.

• 1:18Jessie Ware?

  We'll find. Okay, let's find out. Let's talk to Louis about it.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  We'll ask Louis about silences.

• 1:22Jessie Ware?

  Louis has done documentaries, movies. He's now a viral TikTok star with My Money Don't Jiggle Jiggle. And he is now a podcaster, which he started a podcast in lockdown and now he is over at Spotify with the Louis Theroux podcast.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:41Jessie Ware?

  And we're very excited to have him.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Very. He gets people to speak.

• 1:45Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  And say stuff and make fools of themselves and they don't even know they're doing it.

• 1:52Jessie Ware?

  But I don't know if that's his full intent, main intention, but I am intrigued by his.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Well, he's got that ingenue, hasn't he? He kind of looks at you like, oh, you're voting for Donald Trump? Yeah, why would that be? And they kind of explain themselves. So you're right, less is more, I think, with him.

• 2:11Jessie Ware?

  Not like you with the.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  More is more.

• 2:14Jessie Ware?

  The guy that was reading the Boris Johnson memoir on holiday.

• 2:19Jessie Ware?

  And what did you say to him, Mum?

• 2:21Speaker 01

  I said, oh, he must have been the only person who bought that book.

• 2:25Jessie Ware?

  And what did you say? It was in clear?

• 2:27Speaker 01

  I said, was it in clearance? So he said, no, it wasn't.

• 2:31Jessie Ware?

  So Lenny and Louis have very different interviewing methods. And we'll see how that goes tonight.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  I wasn't interviewing him. I wasn't telling him. He was an idiot.

• 2:37Jessie Ware?

  Lambasting him.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Lambasting.

• 2:39Jessie Ware?

  Um, so yeah, Louis Thoreau is coming up and Mum's cooked. However, as we went to this charity lunch today, we have brought in some help. Now, we don't do this. I don't think we've done this ever, or well, actually I tell like, we have done this once before. Um, but we are thanking lovely Johnny.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Johnny, my phone, Johnny.

• 3:03Jessie Ware?

  Who is a vegetarian.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:05Jessie Ware?

  Because apparently Louis Thoreau likes eating vegetarian food. So what are we starting with, Mum?

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Chicken soup and matzo balls. But he, he does eat meat. That's what I was told.

• 3:16Jessie Ware?

  He just prefers eating vegetables.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  He tries to eat more vegetables.

• 3:19Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  But I think chicken soup is so clear. It's hardly eating meat, is it?

• 3:23Jessie Ware?

  No, no, of course.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  It's kind of.

• 3:26Jessie Ware?

  So we're starting with chicken soup and matzo ball challah bread. Um, and then we've got.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  It's Friday night. Do you want to do the candles?

• 3:31Jessie Ware?

  Sure, why not?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  So that we've got a vegetable tart, which is delicious, filo pastry. And it's got a base of pine nuts and parsley, which is delicious. And then I've done little gem lettuce with buttermilk and anchovy dressing and a bit of garlic.

• 3:47Jessie Ware?

  A bit?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit.

• 3:49Jessie Ware?

  It's like living, like it's infiltrating my mouth.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  I'll tell him. I'll tell him. Yeah, okay. Um, and then I've also done a radicchio with onion petals.

• 4:00Jessie Ware?

  Just makes me like, it's such a funny word, isn't it? It's lovely. It's like, don't be radicchio. Don't be radicchio.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Uh, so it's radicchio with onion petals.

• 4:10Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Walnuts and blue cheese.

• 4:12Jessie Ware?

  As inspired by Saffy's in Los Angeles.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:15Jessie Ware?

  It sounds delicious.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:16Jessie Ware?

  And what's prepared?

• 4:17Speaker 01

  A cardamom and fig pavlova. And there is rosewater and cardamom in the actual meringue. And also I've cooked the figs with some cardamom as well.

• 4:30Jessie Ware?

  Right, yeah. Lenny, A game.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Tried my best.

• 4:37Jessie Ware?

  Welcome Louis Theroux, you've just had a puncture, you were cycling.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Nearly punch up, that would have been more exciting, you just had a punch up. You crossed paths with some lary youth.

• 4:48Jessie Ware?

  Do you get road rage? What kind of cyclist are you?

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Do you bang on the roofs of cars if they cut you up?

• 4:55Speaker 02

  I'd like to think.

• 4:56Jessie Ware?

  You aggressively dingle your bell?

• 4:58Speaker 02

  I'm not, I'm a bit of an amber gambler.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 5:04Jessie Ware?

  Is that a thing? I love that!

• 5:06Speaker 01

  I never heard that!

• 5:07Jessie Ware?

  No.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Amber gambler, meaning jump the lights.

• 5:10Jessie Ware?

  Cycling slightly, yes, more rosy and sexy, doesn't it?

• 5:15Speaker 02

  You know, you figure, you figure because you're not burning fossil fuels and you're there pedaling away and it's quite tiring and that if it's a, you know, what's the word, like a fine margin, then you think, well, I'll nip over even though it's turning or, you know, I'll do the crossing even though it's gone orange or maybe even just gone red, which is not ideal, but I don't think I'm aggressive. You know, there's a lot of tribalism on the road between the cyclists and the drivers.

• 5:44Jessie Ware?

  How do you feel about line bikers?

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Well, I've, look, I don't, they don't pay my bills, but nevertheless, I have, I got here on a line bike because I got, because of the puncture.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Now, look, are you a veggie?

• 5:57Speaker 02

  No.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  I do eat vegetables.

• 5:59Jessie Ware?

  You like, you like vegetables.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  I'm a flexitarian.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Okay, so I have made chicken soup with matzo balls because it's my favourite thing to make.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  That's a nice wine, too.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's lovely, isn't it? It's wine society. There's such good value, to be honest, yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  I love good value.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  But I have made vegetable, a vegetable pie for you. Well, I haven't, my friend did because we've been out all day.

• 6:22Jessie Ware?

  No, but you did make the chicken soup and you've made the pork.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  The chicken soup, I made the pork and I made the fellas.

• 6:26Jessie Ware?

  So then she like got a bit.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  I eat anything. I eat anything.

• 6:30Jessie Ware?

  Great, but he would like to eat sooner.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  What's your favourite thing to eat, Louis?

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Uh, well.

• 6:35Jessie Ware?

  Vegetable lasagna?

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Favourite. I love a really good pizza, actually. Yeah, I don't cook pizza because you, you can't really replicate proper pizza quality at home.

• 6:45Jessie Ware?

  Should I tell you my? Trick.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Go on.

• 6:47Jessie Ware?

  Go to your favourite pizza place, pay for the dough.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:50Jessie Ware?

  And then make pizzas at home, get a Gosney.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Or one of those home pizza ovens.

• 6:53Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, they're brilliant, but if you get the dough, because I can't be fat with the dough, and you do it, how ca- how old are your kids?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Here's the thing though, uh, they're eighteen, sixteen and ten.

• 7:02Jessie Ware?

  Oh, so they don't really wanna make pizza with their dad anymore. Okay, fair enough.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  And then you're doing the one by one and it's a bit of a, it's like, it's a little bit annoying. If you could bring out four at the same time of a decent size.

• 7:12Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  But then you become a slave to the, I've got an uni, do you know about uni pizza ovens?

• 7:15Jessie Ware?

  Yes.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  And with that, it's kind of fun for a while, like you put bits of wood in and you're like, oh, this is like you're making a fire. And and you, obviously the key with really good pizza is the heat of the oven. You you need to get it up to like six hundred.

• 7:27Jessie Ware?

  Very hot.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Degrees.

• 7:28Jessie Ware?

  Cause it's, it's, it's cook in like five minutes.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's gotta be really hot and you want tiger spotting, you know that, or leopard spotting, that's right. Leopard spotting on the crust where it's where it's got little burn marks.

• 7:38Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  And, uh, but then then you're like, oh my god, it's like working in in in in the the engine of an old steam train where you're. You're having loading in more fuel to keep the heat up, then you're you're stretching out your dough, you're putting your toppings on. And then suddenly two hours have gone by and you haven't talked to anyone.

• 7:55Jessie Ware?

  So where where do you get your pizza from then?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Well, I would, uh, well, the best is in America, obviously, and in fact, New York, yeah.

• 8:05Jessie Ware?

  What's your toppings? Yeah.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Um, I'd go like a veggie supreme on that, with pizzas, I'm more inclined to.

• 8:12Jessie Ware?

  Supreme.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  That's what they just, that's just what they call it. It's, it's like a Domino's topping. I don't mind Domino's.

• 8:18Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  But but.

• 8:19Jessie Ware?

  With pineapple or without?

• 8:21Speaker 02

  I wouldn't go pineapple.

• 8:22Jessie Ware?

  What's your dip at Domino's?

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Uh, the Herbie.

• 8:26Jessie Ware?

  I love it.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  White one. Do you know what? When I was living on my own, I was, I was between girlfriends in my early twenties, now maybe late twenties. I was ordering Domino's quite a lot, because I like to cook, but not when I'm not just on my own, it it feels to, it takes the savour out of it. So I was ordering and I was getting Domino's pizza coming around and then you get the dips and then you dip it in the dip. And a few weeks went by and I got this weird sensation like I was carrying like a rubber ring around. And I and I realised like I'd put on a tonne of weight, which was weird. And then it, so it turns out, um.

• 8:56Jessie Ware?

  That's pizza for you.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it can be quite calorific. If you do the dip, I think the dip pu- pushed me over the edge.

• 9:02Jessie Ware?

  It was the full pizza from Domino's.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Probably that didn't help either.

• 9:06Jessie Ware?

  Let's start at the beginning. You were born in Singapore?

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Yes, I was.

• 9:10Jessie Ware?

  Why, why were you born in Singapore?

• 9:12Speaker 02

  Because they were, my parents were teachers and they'd met in Kenya, no, Uganda. I think they'd met in Uganda, in, in Central Africa and, or is that East Africa? Anyway, the point being, they were teachers and they'd moved from Uganda to Singapore to teach. My dad was teaching at the University of Singapore.

• 9:33Jessie Ware?

  But they weren't missionaries?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  No, my mum was in the VSO, Volunteer Service Overseas, my dad was in the Peace Corps. He was, that was his service instead of going into the Vietnam War.

• 9:42Jessie Ware?

  Oh, good.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  They were both idealistic and liked the idea of travelling and seeing the world and broadening their horizons. And they met and fell in love. Had my brother in, in Kampala, in Uganda. And then, I think my dad was getting into trouble in Africa, uh, with the authorities, so they moved to Singapore. And that's where I, that's where I entered the picture.

• 10:01Jessie Ware?

  How many years were you there?

• 10:02Speaker 02

  One year, I think.

• 10:03Jessie Ware?

  So you don't really remember it?

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Don't rea-, I mean, don't remember even vaguely.

• 10:07Jessie Ware?

  Right.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  And I've never been back, but I like the idea of it. Like, it seems like, you know, it's a city-state. So it's, it's, it's like, it's just one.

• 10:15Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  It's like, you know, like Monaco or Vatican City.

• 10:18Jessie Ware?

  Or Hong Kong.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  So really, you know, it's like Sing-, it's Singapore, the capital of Singapore, which is Singapore, you know what I mean?

• 10:24Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  And, and, and I think it's, it's a bit of a melting pot. You've got Chinese and Malaysian and sort of South East Asian mix. And kind of great social welfare, I believe, very clean.

• 10:37Jessie Ware?

  Mm.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Um, that's what I understand of it.

• 10:39Jessie Ware?

  And then you came to Catford, am I right?

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Then we moved to, yeah, to, to, well, we moved to, to the UK. Uh, my mum, uh, well, they, they settled in Dorset. My, I guess my mum's parents were in, near Bemminster.

• 10:53Jessie Ware?

  Oh, that's near where my in-laws live in Bridport.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, we used to go into Bridport to do the shopping.

• 10:59Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, it's nice.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Uh, and they were in a little town called, near Netherbury, that's where my grandparents had retired. Anyway, and then they moved up to Cat-, they wanted, my mum wanted to work at the BBC, she went to work for BBC World Service. So they moved to Catford in South East London.

• 11:14Jessie Ware?

  Glamorous Catford.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  It's only taken fifty years.

• 11:23Jessie Ware?

  So how long were you in South London for?

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Uh, well, sixteen, seventeen years, because we were in Catford. And then we moved to Wandsworth, and not far from where we are now.

• 11:34Jessie Ware?

  Oh.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  Clapham Junction, neck of the woods, north side Wandsworth Common. Elsinge Road, if you want to get specific. Yeah, it's quite a nice road.

• 11:42Jessie Ware?

  Lovely.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  Supposedly designed as part of the great exhibition in the, in the mid nineteenth century to, to, to illustrate different housing styles. So that was really my childhood home, from the age of five till when I went off to university.

• 12:01Jessie Ware?

  And where, uh, uh, well firstly, round the dinner table, who was round the dinner table and who was cooking?

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Um, it was, uh, it was me, my mum, my dad and my brother. And I was at boarding school during the week from the age of thirteen. So we, and my mum was a working mum. So when I was, uh, probably from the age of five to thirteen, I was getting, I was eating. A lot of my meals with either a nanny or an au pair, who were just making fairly, um, you know, just kids food. I remember things like spaghetti hoops on toast.

• 12:38Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 12:41Jessie Ware?

  You don't do that anymore, do you? My kids aren't into it. They'll do beans on toast, but they can't do the hoops.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Hoops on toast, I haven't even eaten, but I used to love that because it's very sweet tomato sauce and starch on starch. Yes, very soft. Uh, that was an, I, I used on, on, you know, white toast, um, with, with angel delight, you know, for afters.

• 13:03Jessie Ware?

  Which flavour?

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Butterscotch.

• 13:05Jessie Ware?

  Everyone loves butterscotch, yeah.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  That would have been a quite a treat to have the angel delight or a club biscuit.

• 13:11Jessie Ware?

  So chocolatey.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Toast a lot of fish fingers, maybe a lamb chop, um, sausages. Uh, do you remember Franks and Beans?

• 13:21Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, you brought them in a tin. Oh, right, yeah.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Weird little, sort of soft little hot dogs inside the beans. I mean, that's what we were eating. I don't know, now it sounds, it seems almost quite weird and unhealthy. This is when I was like six, seven, eight, nine, you know, that was what I was eating.

• 13:40Jessie Ware?

  Boarding school, how was the food there?

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Um, it was okay.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Was that Westminster?

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I went to Westminster. You know.

• 13:49Jessie Ware?

  So you went too far away?

• 13:50Speaker 02

  My big thing, okay, that I wanna get out of the way is that until I was probably sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. I was a fussy eater. I was almost, you know that term neo-phobic, where you're afraid of new things?

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my god.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Which I think is not uncommon in children.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Most children don't.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  You know, there were five things that I knew I liked, tomato soup, you know, fish fingers, a few others, chips, fish and chips. Uh, and then I really didn't wanna go out of that lane. And my, my parents, like, one of our family things was on a Sunday. Um, my parents would take us to an Indian restaurant in Putney called the Taj Mahal. And my brother would get um, like a prawn biryani and my dad would get a king prawn madras. I don't know, I can't remember what my mum would get. And what would I get?

• 14:37Speaker 01

  What, pappadums?

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Fried chicken and chips.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Did they do that?

• 14:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, they had like a little English section on the menu. And I was like, I want the fried chicken. I didn't even trust rice. I didn't trust it. I was like, what is it? And then one day I was like, why don't you just try it? I'm like, imagine, just try it. You, you have a spoonful of rice.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  And what do you, well, it's bland, isn't it? Because actually, no one just eats rice. You don't want rice on its own. You want rice with something. So I was like, no, I don't like it, because it just tasted of rice, right? But until I was probably sixteen or seventeen, I didn't really acquire a taste for anything particularly. What I would have considered exotic.

• 15:16Jessie Ware?

  How did it make your, were your parents kind of accepting of that or were they irritated?

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I give them enormous credit for being patient with me. And I think there was a phase. When I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, when I was mainly eating.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Um crunchy nut cornflakes.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Cereal.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  I was eating probably three or four bowls a day, almost like someone with disordered eating. You know what I mean? Where they like, they'd put out the food and here's your, there were a few things like, my mum made fish parcels and I liked those. That was a Delia's.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Oh, she Delia made.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  She liked Delia, but no, this was actually, do you know, um, oh my god. Jostlin dimblebee.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  It was called a taste, no, it wasn't a taste of dreams. That was her pudding cook, but she had another one that was, was a Jostlin dimblebee was.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  I think I've got it.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  It was fish, it was fish, it was basically little parcels of fish with pastry, a bit of cheese and some spinach. I liked that. And there were a few others that, as time went on, I broadened, but there was a time when I was like, don't like it mum. She's like, okay, well, just go and, you know, have something else. I'd stick it in the bin and have crunchy nut cornflakes.

• 16:28Jessie Ware?

  How, how did that work in boarding school though? Was it actually quite straightforward? Because usually it was probably like you have fish and chips on this Friday.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it would be really bland and basic food.

• 16:37Jessie Ware?

  So it kind of suited you?

• 16:38Speaker 02

  I could, I could manage, there'd be something that I could eat.

• 16:41Jessie Ware?

  Did you like boarding?

• 16:43Speaker 02

  I did quite, yeah. I mean, it was an odd one because actually I lived not, you know, twenty minutes.

• 16:50Jessie Ware?

  Sorry, that was my, that's all right. It was just a bracelet. I was fiddling, sorry.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  God, it sounded like, I nearly.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  I thought it was a, you've been shot.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  I know, I thought that was like a terror attack.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  I did as well.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  I was ready to drop and roll.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  I thought there's a gun from there.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  That was a shot. I need a minute to calm down now. What was it?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  It was my pearl bracelet.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  My heart's going like a drum.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  How did it make so much noise?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 17:17Jessie Ware?

  I'm sorry, and you were about to talk about.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  Totally lost my focus.

• 17:20Jessie Ware?

  Don't worry, boarding school, did you enjoy it?

• 17:24Speaker 02

  I've been in war zones. Shit like that can set me off.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Did they have crunchy nut at night?

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Do you provide therapy if I'm traumatized by being here?

• 17:33Speaker 01

  That's really my proper job.

• 17:34Jessie Ware?

  Is there any food that's triggering for you?

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Christ, chicken soup probably.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Um, not really, but there was food that I can imagine would be triggering. Like in Japan, don't they, they do a food where they, they, they fill it, the fish while it's still alive and then it's flopping around on your plate while you eat it.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Have you eaten that, Jessie? Have you?

• 17:56Speaker 02

  I don't like eating things other than I'll eat an oyster while it's alive, but I'm not, I wouldn't want to eat anything else while it was actually alive, looking at you. Looking at you saying, what are you doing? Your point was, uh, what, no, there was, you were asking another question, which was to do with boarding school and, and truthfully, it's a bit like, it's a funny one because parts of it are brilliant. It's a bit like being in a war zone. I mean, I used to facetiously compare it. That when I went to San Quentin, it was fine because I'd already been to boarding school and it was exactly the same. You know, it's, it's an all male environment with a lot of situational homosexuality. You know, guys slapping each other's bums and saying like, oh, get you, you know, and, um,

• 18:38Speaker 02

  and sublimated sort of like wrestling and squeezing and, and also it's not gangs, but it's cliques. Uh, and parts of it are kind of cozy and almost magical, right? That almost, that Hogwarts feeling of being in an alternate reality in these extraordinary centuries old buildings, Christopher Red designed buildings or you're in, your, your assemblies were literally in Westminster Abbey, if you can get your head around that. You would go off to your Monday morning assembly, go past Chaucer's tomb, go past, I don't know, a monument to William Shakespeare. You know, you're, you're right in the heart of the oldest part. You know, this is where literally Edward the Confessor, I think, corre- uh,

• 19:22Speaker 02

  was crowned right king in whatever that was, ten sixty five or something. And, and so all of that, that, all the stones are saturated in all that history. But at the same time, you sort, you sort, you feel occasionally a bit lonely, a bit dislocated. And you know, you you miss out on parts of family life.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  I remember looking round Westminster with my son, yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  It felt like university.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  It does.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Clever, it felt the most cleverest place I'd ever been into.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  And actually, when you go off to, because I went off to to Oxford, not trying to make a big thing out of it, I got a first in history.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Very good.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Thank you, it's not a big deal, it was a very high first, I'm not trying to say a lot about that in history.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  History.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  One of the highest firsts in history in the year. But that's irrelevant, that's not important.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  It's very important.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Uh, other than that, is that, uh, having been to Westminster, you sort of felt a bit like, I was maudlin college, Oxford, very desirable, very high achievement.

• 20:19Jessie Ware?

  Did you date in that time, Louis?

• 20:21Speaker 02

  The point I was gonna get to.

• 20:23Jessie Ware?

  Where you got the first?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  The, it's.

• 20:24Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  No, the first isn't important, I don't know why I brought that up.

• 20:27Jessie Ware?

  Very impressive.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  It's, it's, but it's not, anyone, I worked incredibly hard and, um.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  It paid off.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  And so that, it is what it is, enough, I wish I hadn't mentioned it.

• 20:37Jessie Ware?

  It's very attractive, Louis.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  I, I wish.

• 20:39Jessie Ware?

  It's very attractive.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  I wish I hadn't mentioned, no, so having been to Westminster, it was a bit like, you'd already, it was a tiny bit like, oh, cloisters, old buildings. People going around in gowns.

• 20:49Jessie Ware?

  Been there, done that.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Been there, done that.

• 20:51Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Oh, did you wear a gown at school? Or the masters did?

• 20:55Speaker 02

  I think the scholars did and the masters did, and so it was kind of a thing.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not like Eton though.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  You can read more about my experiences at Westminster in my memoir, Gotta Get Through This, available on Amazon, five star.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Kidding.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  I reviewed it, gave it five stars.

• 21:10Jessie Ware?

  Um.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  They took the review down.

• 21:12Jessie Ware?

  Oh, for God's sake.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Sake.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Did you write it?

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Conflict of interest.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 21:17Jessie Ware?

  Why didn't you just pretend to be Justin Theroux?

• 21:20Speaker 02

  He can't read, they would have seen through that.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  He's very handsome though.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  He is handsome.

• 21:24Jessie Ware?

  Is, is that where you met Adam?

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:26Jessie Ware?

  Um, at Westminster?

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's also we've got to get through this.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  We've had him on the podcast.

• 21:32Jessie Ware?

  I'm sorry I didn't read your memoir.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Did you not read it?

• 21:34Jessie Ware?

  I'm sorry.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  That's one thing when I'm interviewing a guest, I always read them.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  We know that.

• 21:39Jessie Ware?

  You're really, listen, this is something that I.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  No, why would I? I often joke like, if you want to hide something, if it's something you absolutely don't want people to know about you, put it in a book. No one will read it.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, Jimmy Savile confessed everything in his book.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Oh, did he?

• 21:55Speaker 02

  No one read the book. I'm amazed what you can, I read Sharon Osbourne's book and I was like, okay. There were, it was extraordinary. And then, and then I asked her about it. She's like, how do you know all this stuff? She hadn't read her own book.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  She probably hadn't written it either.

• 22:10Jessie Ware?

  How did you go about choosing the celebrities that you had on your television show when it was the series with Judy, Stormy, Ray, Rita?

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Uh, that was hard because, uh, we wanted people who would be of the caliber that we thought would merit that level of treatment. But you're also asking a lot of the stars. It's not like a podcast where you're saying, sit down for an hour or two, we'll come to you, you come to us, or we can even do it remotely. You're actually saying, we need two or three days, probably in your home, at your work. Um, and that's a big ask of someone at that level. Back in the day, just to roll back. The first things I did involving celebrities, we would say, we want 10 days. This was, um.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  They never have 10 days.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  You aforementioned Jimmy Savile, Paul Daniels was one, for those who remember, uh, the magician and his wife Debbie McGee.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  Neil and Christine Hamilton, Max Clifford, the publicist, and a few others. It was, that was very, very hard. And quite quickly, we ran out of road and, and actually, whether, it was never kind of made explicit, but in point of fact, we were largely dealing with people who were on the downside of their careers, like. It's not a nice term.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  So they came on your show instead of going on Strictly.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  It was before Strictly.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  It was before Big Brother or or around the same time. It was, yeah, it was I'm a Celebrity before any of that. And uh and then when reality TV came along and celebrities realised they could get their own. You know, they could appear on things they didn't have to tolerate.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  A BBC inquisitor being impertinent, then quite clearly they would choose to do that. Plus, the shows went on and who wants to be like. Who wants to be like, well, we've done Jimmy Savile and we've done Paul Daniels, so we'd love to do you. And I remember um one or two of the celebrities. Uh agents were like, well, that's not a very nice thing to be asked. You know, it became almost like a brand. Of like being washed up as like Louis through asks you to do something. So fifteen, twenty years went by. And I sli- I feel like it was a long road of trying to kind of um. How do I put this? Show people that I wasn't just out to.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Get them.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  To get people, to show actually that I was. I was up for having conversations that felt fair and humane and. Um that would be, you know, oh, you know, win-win in in a sense. Or at least that's what we were aiming for, was like not to show people up, but to absolutely just tell the truth in a way that might not be. And necessarily prohibitive.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  What was your first job? You left university.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, my first actual job job leaving university. Was working in a um as a as an apprentice, not apprentice, but as a sort of helper to a a ga- a glass blower.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, in Boston, in Boston, Massachusetts.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Why?

• 25:08Speaker 02

  So basically, I left university with the with with the aforementioned American parent. I had an I had an American passport. I went to live in America. I thought, I don't know what I want to do. I'm very confused. I don't know. I have a. Degree from Oxford, I have no idea what to do with myself. I've been on this track, high achieving, like getting absurd, like working ridiculously hard. Learning about medieval kings of France and the scientific movement. Galileo, Descartes, Boyle, Kepler, Newton.

• 25:41Jessie Ware?

  Happy enough.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Right, like who, what do you do, then suddenly you're like, well, now you're in the real world. They kick you out the other side of university. And what are you qualified for? Like, I could have been an academic, I guess, I didn't wanna do that. And I was like, well, what do I do, I don't know, I'm like a, I'm like a caged chicken, like a caged veal that's been released into the wild.

• 26:00Jessie Ware?

  Caged veal.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  You know, with spindly little legs, I was like a battery hen with spindly legs saying like, I don't know how to fly, I don't know what to do. Um, so I thought, well, I have got an American passport, my brother was living in America at my, at the time. My parents had recently separated. Don't you're gonna make me cry, no. Um, no, it was a weird time emotionally for, for me, yeah, more, but more of that in gotta get through this, it's a very moving piece of the book. And so, you know, you think like, oh, well, you were a grown man, your parents were getting divorced, uh. Deal with it, man up, stop being a snowflake for fuck's sake. No, actually, it's quite upsetting when your parents divorce, even if you are a grown man. I could talk more about that, that would be an exclusive.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  No, it's, it's an odd because, also because I could see how upset my mum was.

• 26:49Jessie Ware?

  Were you angry at your dad?

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Well, it, it not, I mean, I was angry, I, I think I was angry with, with both of them. I think, I think mainly what I was angry about was that I was becoming the vector for their relationship. So they weren't really speaking, but my dad would be saying one thing about what was happening and my mum would be saying like, what did your dad say? And I'm, and I'm like this go-between in the relationship.

• 27:19Jessie Ware?

  So you moved to America?

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Well, that wasn't why I moved to America, but that was what was going on in my life. And so I moved because I I I didn't know what I was good for. And I thought, well, I'll go and live in America at least. I'll be I'll be I'll be kind of experiencing something. I've got an American passport. I travelled around for a couple of months. I lived with my dad at his house in Cape Cod for a little bit. Where he was now living full time, having separated from my mum. And then my brother had moved to Boston. He'd just finished a master's degree at Yale. He was working at something called a TV channel. I slept on his floor for a bit and I couldn't find, you know, it's like, what do I do now? I thought, well, I could get work in a in a bookshop. Like that was, you know what I mean? It's like, what do what do you do when you're 21? And you've got really no qualifications other than a degree, right?

• 28:06Speaker 02

  You just, you know, and so I thought, well, I'll work in a bookshop. And then um near where, near the bookshop, there was a glass blowing shop. A studio where they were making these strange goblets. It's it's a technique.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  What, like Murano or?

• 28:23Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know what that is.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Well, in Murano, yeah, they blow glass there.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were, they were basically, it's called the Masiachio technique, which is a Venetian glass.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. So Murano is an island off Venice, isn't it? Yeah.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  So similar. They made these cherubs. It was kind of a weird Frankensteinian process where he'd buy these goblets from the shop and then he'd cut them in half. And then he'd put this cherub in the middle and then he'd he'd fold this glass around. He'd put on, he'd make a cloud. I think he would do their hair and then he'd put a willy on them.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  You're joking, on the cherub, yeah.

• 28:57Jessie Ware?

  Did you ever have to put the willy on?

• 28:58Speaker 02

  I wish, like, I was, I had no glass skills. So then that the basically the the working for his name was Tony Devlin. Paid like 25 dot cents an hour more than the than the bookshop. So I was like, well, I'll go and work with Tony and help with the willies, yeah.

• 29:15Jessie Ware?

  Can you eat some of your soup?

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Do you need some bowls there?

• 29:18Speaker 02

  So delicious.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  It it is nice, isn't it? Yeah. Do you like matzo balls?

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Mmm, do you skim it?

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, put in the fridge overnight, then I skim it, so it's.

• 29:28Jessie Ware?

  It feels good for you, right?

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's got no fat.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's very little schmaltz.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, no schmaltz.

• 29:34Jessie Ware?

  Are you good at cooking?

• 29:36Speaker 02

  I don't feel I should be the one. That's like reviewing your book on Amazon, isn't it? You've got to ask someone like a cook.

• 29:42Jessie Ware?

  Okay, so if we were coming around to yours,

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:44Jessie Ware?

  what are you making us, Louis Theroux?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  That's a great question. Well, I tell you what I like to make. I'm a no-frills cook. If it was lunch, I might just do, I might just roast a chicken. I know it's so boring, but I really love just a nice roast chicken. I might, if I was feeling, if you'd given me a bit more warning, and if it was you, it would be a bit more special because, you know, you

• 30:09Jessie Ware?

  I love a roast chicken.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  we don't know each other that well, so I probably want to roll out the red carpet. And I might do a vegetarian lasagna.

• 30:18Jessie Ware?

  I've heard about this vegetarian lasagna.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  Which is a lot of effort, but kind of fun. And also it means that you've prepped it. So once the guests are there, you stick it in the oven with a nice salad. That's a lovely meal. Or a slow roasted lamb.

• 30:34Jessie Ware?

  Mmm.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  There's a couple of recipes where it's like a five or six hour and it falls off the boat. Aquiere is that, I believe, the French term?

• 30:42Jessie Ware?

  Aquiere.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Aquiere, meaning to the spoon, like, as in, it's so tender that you could, you can, you can break it off with a spoon.

• 30:51Jessie Ware?

  Also, I always feel like slow cooked food feels so special and it feels so thoughtful, but actually it's quite effortless, isn't it? Because you kind of bung it in.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  I love a slow roast.

• 31:01Jessie Ware?

  Me too.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Do you know that viral recipe that's it's like a beef stew where there's only five ingredients and it never goes wrong and it's extraordinarily delicious? It's literally, literally five ingredients. There's no chopping.

• 31:17Jessie Ware?

  Oh, I love that.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Two of the ingredients are just spices that are in a packet. It never fails. And I think it's a five hour, six hour beef roast.

• 31:25Jessie Ware?

  And what would you serve it with?

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Mashed potato.

• 31:29Jessie Ware?

  Do you add anything to your mash?

• 31:31Speaker 02

  Um.

• 31:32Jessie Ware?

  Do you like to get decadent?

• 31:33Speaker 02

  I don't, I mean, I know people who like, they'll add like, um, boursin, you know, that one?

• 31:40Jessie Ware?

  Yes, we have in our cookbook a chicken boursin, courtesy of producer Alice.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's nice. I mean, but I, I actually think if you do, I put quite a lot of butter in and, um, obviously season it liberally with salt and pepper, a little bit of milk. It does, I don't think it needs anything else. What else does it need?

• 32:01Jessie Ware?

  So you are, you're quite foodie, like, you like cooking.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love cook, I'm, I would say I am the cook, I'm the ma, I'm the cook of the house.

• 32:09Jessie Ware?

  Oh, right.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do, I would say ninety percent of the cooking. In fact, maybe even a hundred percent.

• 32:17Jessie Ware?

  So your poor wife is not eating tonight because you're here? Have you already prepped her some food?

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Well, Friday nights, we have a takeaway. Which actually I'd rather cook on a Friday night, but they, um, it's a tradition, it's kind of nice in a way, the kids like it. It's a special night to have something.

• 32:34Jessie Ware?

  Have you just got boys?

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Three boys, yeah.

• 32:37Jessie Ware?

  Wow.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  But on a Saturday or a Sunday, I cook to, I, I cook to relax, I cook just to sort of busy myself, I cook obviously to eat. And, um, and so on a Saturday or Sunday, I do some batch cooking, like I'll typically make a, like a huge bolognese. Um, at Aldi, you can get seven hundred and fifty grams of mince.

• 32:58Jessie Ware?

  I love Aldi.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Do you know what I'm talking about? And it's a mixture of pork and beef mince, and it actually says on the label, ideal for bolognese. Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 33:06Jessie Ware?

  No, but that's such a good hack. I love Aldi.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  It's very, very affordable. And so there's a Jamie Oliver recipe for bolognese in Ministry of Food. And it's basically two onions, two cloves of garlic, two carrots, two sticks of celery, can you remember that? Hello. Two tins of, uh, of, uh, of tomatoes, refilled with water.

• 33:29Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  And he doesn't call for tomato paste, but I put the paste in, I think it ma- makes a bit, but. And what I, what I also do is like beforehand, I'll, I'll often either fry up some pancetta. Or fry up some, this is my invention, I know invention, that's a strong word, some chorizo.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Which is pa- rich and paprikety, like fry it for like um two, three, four minutes and then take it out, put it to one side. And it infuses the bolognese with some really rich umami flavours.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Oh great.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  And then you do seven hundred and fifty grams.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Bringing out the umami.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  You need a big, you need a really big pan for that.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  You are a real chef.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Think about how much, you've got seven hundred and fifty grams, that's about. Four meals and then all through the week.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  It's not four meals for three boys.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Well, they come and go, so they'll have a bit, go but have a, but basically, uh, it's like having a cauldron, you know, like being a gall. You know, in ancient times, and you've got a huge cauldron of bolognese and they come in, literally today for lunch. They came and helped themselves. By the way, I'm always conscious of like cutting down on meat, I think a really good, a really good puttanesca. And again, just double the quantity so that you can um, you can ha- you have enough, you know, when they say like enough for four. Well, just do enough for eight or twelve, do you know what I mean? And then, and then stick it in a Tupperware thing. Save the, when you get a takeaway, save the Tupperware boxes. Do you do that? Wash them.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Show Louis your drawer.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  I've got, I've got, I've got about a thousand of them.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  So excited.

• 34:57Jessie Ware?

  You organize.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  As long as they all, I only have one type, and if you order from, oh no, it's not the right type. But basically, you make, you do a puttanesca, with tomatoes, capers, olives, anchovies, I don't know the proportions. And that's good all week. The puttanesca, do you know why they call it puttanesca?

• 35:18Speaker 01

  No. Whore salad, whore, whore, yeah.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Whore sauce, I shouldn't say it, but prostitute sauce, isn't that better?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Sauce.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  Sex worker sauce, because.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  I don't know that one.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Because they didn't have very long between clients. So they'd have like fifteen minutes and they have to whip something up really fast.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Oh, that's why it's a good thing to make.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Did they make that to you?

• 35:39Speaker 02

  In Italian, that's putain in French.

• 35:41Jessie Ware?

  Did you get that on your weird weekend with the porn stars?

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Um.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Jesse, why are you using your dessert?

• 35:46Jessie Ware?

  I don't know, I just am.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Louis, what do you think of the matzah balls? Just asking.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  Delicious.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Good.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  It's so rich and it's so. It feels like it's good for you.

• 35:57Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Chicken soup for the soul.

• 35:59Jessie Ware?

  What did the, what did the porn, the porn stars eat on their like, did they have like protein shakes or did they have like? Strawberries dipped in chocolate?

• 36:08Speaker 02

  I didn't spend enough at home with the, uh, porn stars in general, this is a huge generalisation. But based on my limited experience, I mean, I made three films in that world, but they're not massively, the ones I met, I should say.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Have you finished darling?

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Weren't massively, they weren't like, oh, I feel weird even, I'm on thin ice with this. I didn't spend enough at home with them to really know. I will say that, um, in the world of the brothel, I spent three weeks living at a, a brothel, um, not for a film, I just liked living there. I always make that joke.

• 36:46Jessie Ware?

  But you continue.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  And, um, and they always did like, it was the best stocked fridge. You know they say an army marches on its stomach? Well, a, a sex worker also, may I, had sex on her stomach. I wa, I didn't, I was gonna use a rude word and then I didn't.

• 37:04Jessie Ware?

  So what was in the fridge?

• 37:05Speaker 02

  In the sense that, um, that was the thing, the, the, it was everything, just everything, it was, it was the most, I've never seen a fridge, quite so full of food. Have you said that? I remember when I, I met a porn performer, male porn performer called, um, Tommy Gunn. And, um, halfway through his sex scene, he came out and he ate this weird thing, squeezed it out of a little packet.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Like an astronaut?

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, like an astronaut. Football players doing it. And it was like, what is that? Is it a protein? It was almost like, it was.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Probably needed the energy to get it.

• 37:39Jessie Ware?

  Or hydration?

• 37:40Speaker 02

  He was halfway through the scene. It was really striking because, do you, do you mind me, you, you were asking, so basically. In the world of porn, keeping an erection is for the man, the job, right? That is the job.

• 37:52Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  You could almost argue, it's not the only job, but it's the main job. Because the other jobs are being nice on set, um, turning up on time, et cetera.

• 38:02Jessie Ware?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  Being respectful. But, but the, but the sine qua non, the, the must have, is a, a, a hard penis. I'm sorry to put it so bluntly. And, um, and I remember seeing him, but it's interesting when you, because in the Me Too era, it's like, well, it's really odd to manage the social niceties in a world where you're, you're, you know, your erect penis is, is absolutely central to the job.

• 38:26Jessie Ware?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  And I remember seeing this guy, Tommy, doing a scene and the minute they cut, they, like, the woman pulled away and that was it. And I remember thinking like, that's interesting because you might think, oh, he needs a little help. Like, I don't know, like, that was a prejudice that I brought, like, actually, you know, that you, the, the sex, they're filming the sex, but actually.

• 38:46Jessie Ware?

  Why would he need help?

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Well, because there's a, there's a two or three minute break.

• 38:50Jessie Ware?

  Oh, to keep it up?

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:51Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  And at that point, he's gonna droop.

• 38:53Jessie Ware?

  Right.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  But she did, she broke away and I was like, okay, I guess that how it's works. And I said to Tommy, like, so is that odd? And he says, well, some people do it like that, you know, it's called wood management. Like, but, you know, and I, personally, I would prefer wood management, but, uh, you know, because of wood, the wood is the word for the.

• 39:08Jessie Ware?

  She's meant to manage his dick.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  Well, not meant to, but I think he was saying it would be easier for him if, um, if, if she, if she, if between scenes.

• 39:18Jessie Ware?

  She kept it going.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  There was some, there was the intimacy continued, right? But, but that's obviously, you know, a case by case basis. And, and then, and that, and that may be why, my point is that may be why he, um, needed the protein, uh, stick.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  I don't even know what to say. Would you like some onions and, um?

• 39:37Speaker 02

  It's a strange, I mean.

• 39:39Jessie Ware?

  Blue cheese.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  It's a, it's a, it's a, what can you say, like, among professions, like, it's obviously, the idea of having sex for a living.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  It's not really sex, is it? It's acting.

• 39:50Jessie Ware?

  But it's sex.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Well, here's the thing, it is really sex.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  You think it really is sex?

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, it is, in the sense that they're having sex.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Oh, that's true.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? That's the only thing that isn't acting.

• 40:00Jessie Ware?

  It may be not making love, do you mean, then?

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it definitely is sex.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Okay. Do you like the pie?

• 40:05Jessie Ware?

  I really like the pie.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Did you make the pie?

• 40:07Speaker 01

  No, a friend did. It's delicious, isn't it? I have got the recipe, though.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  It's absolutely delicious.

• 40:24Jessie Ware?

  We ask our guests what their last supper would be.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  This might be my last supper.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  This is delicious.

• 40:30Jessie Ware?

  It's good, it's really delicious.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  If I get run over by a car on the way home.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Do you want some more?

• 40:35Jessie Ware?

  No, you're going in a black cab home.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're gonna make it.

• 40:37Jessie Ware?

  You're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay, Louis. Drink up.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Can I have another slice?

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  If you don't mind.

• 40:44Jessie Ware?

  That's the best, when we get a guest that wants more.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  I know, but they'll be so thrilled.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  I wonder what's in this?

• 40:51Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what's in it. It's the bottom that makes it. It's pine nuts, lemon, and parsley, mixed up with a little water.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  Have you been on Celebrity Bake Off?

• 41:04Jessie Ware?

  I will never.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Why?

• 41:05Jessie Ware?

  I'm not a baker. I know about your pizza cookie.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Oh, you do know about that?

• 41:10Jessie Ware?

  You've got the shape?

• 41:10Speaker 02

  I could have done better. I wish I could do it again.

• 41:13Jessie Ware?

  Maybe they'll have you again.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  I did get a Hollywood handshake.

• 41:15Jessie Ware?

  Yeah. Speaking of regrets, do you regret anything that you... Have you got any regrets of any of your shows or podcasts that you feel like maybe you took it too far?

• 41:27Speaker 02

  I'm a terrible revisitor. You know, I go back and see things I could do differently.

• 41:34Jessie Ware?

  Right.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  And one of my other terrible habits is looking at my old programmes, like even last night.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  I'd had a couple of drinks and I.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  God, you didn't look at your old programmes.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  On iPlayer, they're all on iPlayer.

• 41:47Jessie Ware?

  Oh my god, did you see that? You must have seen that amazing Guardian article about.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, some guy spent like forty eight hours just watching them or something.

• 41:54Jessie Ware?

  It was amazing.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Just watching his programmes.

• 41:57Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, because they'd just been on iPlayer.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  I shouldn't say some guy, a talented journalist.

• 42:01Jessie Ware?

  And it was, it was a really good article.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Does he do the jiggle wiggle?

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Well done, Mum.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  That's not, it doesn't mention anything about doing a jiggle wiggle. But I do the same thing of going back to last night. Whatever reason, sometimes I'm just trying to remind myself, are they any good? Occasionally you think, wow, that one's pretty good.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Were you, were you lacking in confidence yesterday?

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Um, I don't know what was going on. It doesn't take much. Like, it's not like, oh, I'm in a low.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  It wasn't like that, it was more, um.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  You know, you're on your phone and you're like, what was it? I think I was just thinking about programme making and documentaries. I thought. What was that one? So I did one where I went back to see Joe Exotic. It's a ninety minute.

• 42:47Jessie Ware?

  Is that Tiger King?

• 42:48Speaker 02

  It's called, yeah, Shooting Joe Exotic, where I tried. I tried to process the experience of knowing Tiger King and. Anyway, to your point about regrets, so what I tend to see is things that I could have, this is ours. Uh, I don't, actually, things that happen in the field for the most part, I'm quite pleased with. I sort of accept that you, on location, you get what you get. For the most part. And then, most of my regrets are to do with. Things in programmes where I could have written it slightly differently.

• 43:19Jessie Ware?

  Oh, okay.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  And actually, the phrasing feels a little bit clunky. I know that's the most boring answer I could possibly give. But honestly, there's so much about the, the job that is technical.

• 43:31Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  To do with, uh, how, how you write in and out of scenes, how you, uh, frame encounters. And those are the things where I'm like, I, I, I don't know, I think I could have improved on that. That felt wordy or that felt. Like it didn't quite nail the idea, or that felt overstated. I did one with Joan Collins and. I spent two days with her, two or three days in the south of France, and there was a scene where.

• 43:55Jessie Ware?

  That's amazing.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  I'm really pleased with the programme, but there was a phrasing thing where we arrive at this restaurant in the south of France and they. Either aren't expecting us, or they just aren't pleased to see us.

• 44:07Jessie Ware?

  Um, or they're French.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Or they're French. And and this is so small and technical, but the line I did was Joan said she was always, you know, it was one of her favourite restaurants and they were always pleased to see her. And then I say, but on this occasion, not so much. And then we see to them saying, she goes, are they, do they know we're here? And I and I saw that, I wish I hadn't said on this occasion, not so much.

• 44:29Jessie Ware?

  Didn't need to.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Didn't need that.

• 44:30Jessie Ware?

  Right, okay.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  It's a really small thing.

• 44:33Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  It just would have been, I think, I think it would have been a little better if I'd just taken those words out.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  But you can't ruminate on things like that.

• 44:40Jessie Ware?

  No, but I guess.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  I can.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  So you're going to be better?

• 44:45Speaker 02

  I think, I do think that um. You could improve and that maybe the lesson is you just, you've got to, you think that you're there and then you just keep. Working and work like, work harder on the on on the writing, work harder on the framing and the structure. The Joe Exotic one I looked at last night, there was a bit where I was like that. This part of the story, like it's not, the hinge isn't quite right, the writing doesn't feel quite right. Anyway, there's so much that I regret. There's so much that I regret. There's a whole thing, scene I wish we'd shot with the Joe Exotic film where. He was going to, they were going to campaign for his release and they were going to go to. Washington DC, we were offered a flight on his lawyer's plane and then we just let it slide and just things like that, I think I could have been slightly better.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  You know, Woody Allen said, um, they said like something about when's your happiest moment? In creating a film, he said, well, the moment I get the idea and then everything after that is a compromise.

• 45:40Jessie Ware?

  Interesting.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  Which is something in that, everything after that, it's, I don't absolutely line up with that, but there is a sense in which. That that there are small failings and little bits that you wish you could do differently or do over and as it goes on, you're pleased with how it turns out. But uh but more often than not, there are little things that you feel actually you could slide, especially with the but with the hindsight and the passage of time. I'm gonna have one more tiny slide.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Please do, you can take some time, darling.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Oh god, I'm late.

• 46:08Jessie Ware?

  I know, I'm sorry. What are you late for though? Just being with family?

• 46:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just don't want to get back so crazy, but it's all good.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  You can't go home.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  That's so nice, that pie.

• 46:17Jessie Ware?

  Luther, what is a very nostalgic taste for you that can take you back somewhere?

• 46:37Jessie Ware?

  He's going back.

• 46:45Jessie Ware?

  Crikey.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  It's funny, isn't it, because the taste, the sense of taste and smell are the most closely associated with with memory. You know, this isn't the answer probably you're looking for. Basically, today I had a weird thing where, what was I cooking?

• 47:04Speaker 02

  I was making something, I don't know what it was.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Bolognese?

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Might have been.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Or lunch.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  There was something, what was I doing?

• 47:15Speaker 02

  I might have even been cleaning out an old, like, something that had, like, an old, something that had food that had gone off a bit, cleaning it out, I love leftovers.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  And I got a whiff of the smell, and it was this kind of strange congealed meat that they used to feed to cats in the seventies. Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 47:35Jessie Ware?

  This is very Proustian, but yeah, carry on.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  It was very Proustian.

• 47:38Jessie Ware?

  Really?

• 47:39Speaker 02

  Only in the sense that I was like, I almost called my brother. When we got our kittens, I was probably nine and he was probably 11, and they said, they're so young, you can't give them normal cat food, so you have to go to the pet store and get this special, and it was like this congealed slop, I don't even know what they call it.

• 47:57Jessie Ware?

  It's like a gravy.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it was solid, like a jelly. It was like a slab, a slab of like weird toxic meat that was like so strange, there was no other smell, but I'd never thought about that smell, and then when I was, whatever I was doing this afternoon, cleaning out, cleaning out this Tupperware thing that had my rrrr, gone to the dark side. And I got the whiff and I was like, oh my god, that's taking me back to South London and that strange gelatinous slab of of grey meat and and and how weird that was. I know that doesn't really answer your question, but it was.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  It actually does.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  But it was a re- the two thing, the two takeaways were, um, one was, wow. The these these sensory moments create pathways, almost like straight back. Into time, like forty years or thirty, went went like that. It was like a corridor instantaneously. As you said, like like Proust, do you remember what the Proust, uh?

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Clementine's, wasn't it? Or Madeleine, it was a Madeleine.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  It was a Madeleine, but not just a Madeleine.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  What was it?

• 49:07Speaker 02

  It was a Madeleine dipped in tea.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Oh, lovely.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and and it takes him back and he describes, the metaphor he uses, he says it's like putting um like a piece of paper, you know, there's a piece of paper that you put in water and it blooms, like it turns into a flower. And that his Madeleine in his tea created this combination of sensations that took him back to his childhood in Combray. And for me, it was like this this rancid bit of meat that was in an old chili that I found in the Tupperware. It took me back to this toxic meat slab that I'd fed fed to the cats, the kittens when I had them. It was exquisite and beautiful.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  What were your kittens called?

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Scratch and Kipper.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Good names.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. You didn't finish your food.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  I've like, I'm, do you want, no, I just, I'm.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Darling, would you like another piece?

• 49:54Speaker 02

  No, I'm I'm really full, that was so delicious. I'm I'm gonna have to think about making a move in a minute as well.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  It's fine.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  That was so delicious.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  It, I mean, uh, yeah, I, yeah, it was really nice. Thank you, Johnny. But also, we started with the the, you know, you know, we care about the guests when.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  Wish I could cycle home now.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Are you worried about having eaten too much?

• 50:16Speaker 02

  It'd be maybe a nice way to to just sort of enjoy the food as it j- j- jiggles up and down in my tummy.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  That'd be my idea of absolute hell. I would be not wanting to do that.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Blending it.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Can I just, can I ask quickly, what is the one food that you don't think you could live without?

• 50:35Speaker 02

  I could live without any food.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  No, like, what do you like in your kitchen? Marmite, something oats?

• 50:45Speaker 02

  Fish fingers.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  You like, do you eat them now?

• 50:48Speaker 02

  No, I don't eat them. No, of course I eat them.

• 50:50Jessie Ware?

  But like, when was the last time you had fish fingers?

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Uh, there always are fish fingers in my freezer.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Really?

• 50:56Speaker 02

  I didn't have them this week, but I probably would have had them last week.

• 50:58Jessie Ware?

  Well, how would you be having them?

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Fish fingers sandwich or?

• 51:01Jessie Ware?

  No, but like, how, how are you, how are you eating them? Like, sandwich?

• 51:04Speaker 02

  With my mouth?

• 51:05Jessie Ware?

  Yeah. Oh my god.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 51:06Jessie Ware?

  Louis.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  He's all got blonde chests.

• 51:13Jessie Ware?

  Like Westminster, fucking year nine, fuck's sake.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  In a sandwich.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  A fish finger sandwich?

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. By the way, I think that's a respectable culinary practice.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  It is actually now.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  I hate to, I hate to break it to you.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Have you ever given it to your kids, fish finger sandwiches?

• 51:29Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, I spit it out on my face.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Oh god, delicious. And here's what you're gonna do. Lightly toast, uh, the bread.

• 51:35Jessie Ware?

  Yep.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Butter it.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. White or brown?

• 51:39Speaker 02

  You'd probably go brown.

• 51:41Jessie Ware?

  Would you go tartar or melees?

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Cut up?

• 51:44Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Dry?

• 51:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Then, what, and, and also toast them under the, I mean, the, the fish fingers under the grill, right?

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Don't fry them.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Don't fry them, don't cook them in the oven. That's really important. In fact, that's the only golden rule. And then flip them two or three times.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:02Speaker 02

  So they're really crispy on the outside and hot and moist on the inside.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  And then, while they're still really hot, grate some cheddar cheese, could be other cheese. You could put some boursin on there or soft cheese.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Game changer, Jess.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  And then, uh, and then a liberal sprinkling of tabasco, tabasco sauce.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Don't give it to children, that.

• 52:22Speaker 02

  And that.

• 52:22Jessie Ware?

  I, that sounds.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  Grind a bit of salt, a bit of pepper.

• 52:26Jessie Ware?

  Any salad?

• 52:27Speaker 02

  This isn't a recipe.

• 52:28Jessie Ware?

  Any salad, any salad?

• 52:29Speaker 02

  In my cookbook. I'm gonna do a cookbook.

• 52:31Jessie Ware?

  Are you?

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Probably not, but if I were, it's gonna be called, it's called Jump to Recipe.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Jump to, I know, because I love it when it says, you know, when you get one on the internet.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  It's all that shit.

• 52:43Jessie Ware?

  They have all the efforts and they tell you about them fucking making it.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, how you feel. My cover came over. And then another thing is I love onions. You're like, I haven't got time for this.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Jump to recipe.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  And you click jump to recipe. Mine's called, mine's called jump to recipe. I'm going on the cover and I'll be jumping. I'll be in midair.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  That would be great.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  With my thumbs up like. It's called jump to recipe. Louis Theroux's No Bullshit Guide to Making Delicious Food.

• 53:06Jessie Ware?

  I think like you've just got yourself a book deal.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  If you're out there.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  Right? Jump to recipe. I don't, I, I, I, this isn't a hobby. I don't want to read about, oh, you know, this. I just need the recipe.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 53:19Speaker 01

  I know exactly what you mean.

• 53:21Jessie Ware?

  I can't wait for that.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  The first one will be fish finger sandwich.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Stop it, you're good. He's so naughty.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  My head's in a spin, darling.

• 53:45Jessie Ware?

  Louis Theroux is an absolute rager.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 53:47Jessie Ware?

  It all got quite squiffy at the end.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:51Jessie Ware?

  I don't know if he actually answered one question. He didn't give us a pudding, did he?

• 53:55Speaker 01

  No, but he liked mine.

• 53:57Jessie Ware?

  He did like yours. He loved the pie. Had three slices.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Three slices. Thank you, Johnny.

• 54:02Jessie Ware?

  Thank you, Johnny. He's now like tying with, who had three servings? Did Ed Sheeran have four servings?

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:08Jessie Ware?

  So he's second place.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Ed Miliband had three servings.

• 54:12Jessie Ware?

  So Louis, Louis and, Louis and Ed Miliband.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:16Jessie Ware?

  He's really brilliant. He's brilliant. He's entertaining. He's so terrifyingly intelligent.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:23Jessie Ware?

  And completely immature.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's immature. He's got a very.

• 54:27Jessie Ware?

  He loves talking about willies, I've realised too.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, we had cherubs with willies.

• 54:31Jessie Ware?

  We had like him talking about.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Pornography, the wood.

• 54:34Jessie Ware?

  The wood. He loves it. Loves it. Frisky Fridays with Louis Theroux. That's the new season.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Frisky Fridays.

• 54:43Jessie Ware?

  Louis' podcast is on Spotify. You can listen. Listen to it, he is excellent.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  A bit jealous of his cookbook name.

• 54:51Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, that is brilliant.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Jump to Jet Recipe is so clever.

• 54:54Jessie Ware?

  But yeah, that went, that went off piece and I liked it. I enjoyed it very, very much.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Good, good, good.

• 55:01Jessie Ware?

  Thank you to Louis Theroux for coming over here and saying that you had to leave at 8.30 and you've left at 25 past nine. We love it.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Puncture on the way.

• 55:08Jessie Ware?

  Puncture.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Now in the black cab.

• 55:12Jessie Ware?

  Going to Pimlico.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  There's some black cab driver thing. I've got Louis Theroux in the car. I've got to pick his bike up.

• 55:18Jessie Ware?

  With his five beers. And his beanie and he's got to sort, he's got to get the bloody bike in there. Good luck, mate.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:25Jessie Ware?

  You can watch all of Louis' documentaries on iPlayer. You can listen to his podcast and.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  We've learnt a lot, darling.

• 55:34Jessie Ware?

  I feel like I could.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Read the biographies before they come.

• 55:38Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Then you know their secrets before they know them.

• 55:41Jessie Ware?

  That is an excellent bit of intel. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week.