Pod Insights Pablo Torre Finds Out The G.O.A.T. You've Never Known (PTFO Vault) About this episode The story of basketball cannot be told without Oscar Schmidt, the greatest scorer to never play in the NBA. Pablo travels to Florida for a sit-down with a legend whose impact on the game — like his laugh — still echoes today.
(This episode originally aired March 14, 2024.)
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Transcript 8,196 words · 20 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.
0:06 Speaker 01 Love the crown molding.
0:08 Speaker 00 Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.
0:12 Speaker 01 Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet.
0:16 Speaker 00 No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.
0:19 Speaker 01 No FiOS? Yeah... no thank you.
0:23 Speaker 00 Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.
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1:58 Pablo Torre? Okay, so hello, it is me Pablo, entering, invading even your ears because I have done something I have not done before, which is, take the advice of someone who once told me that if people wish to support you financially, if they wish to support your journalism, your very strange future of journalism, meaning your newsroom, your ambitions, your desire to investigate things people don't want you to investigate, you should let them. And so, I am. On Substack, my newsletter, at www.pablo.show, we'll put a link in the show notes of this episode, I have turned on paid subscriptions. And if you didn't know I have a Substack, guess what? It's free, and that's still there for you, and it's worth it.
2:43 Pablo Torre? But the paid subscribers who support this show and us will get legitimately cool, personalized benefits to come. We will make it worth your while. We are figuring out, here at PTFO, our post-draft kings' future. And, you know, more good news on that front, I hope, to come. But in the meantime, Pablo.show is where you sign up, click the link in the show notes, help support us, please. Thank you, thank you, thank you, on that front. And this, this episode today, is a handpicked episode from deep inside the PTFO vault that we sincerely hope you enjoy. Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today, we're gonna find out what this sound is.
3:30 Speaker 05 Oscar Schmidt. It's Rex Chapman. First, [BLEEP] you.
3:36 Pablo Torre? Right after this ad.
3:49 Pablo Torre? Cool, we're good, rolling. Before we get started, I just want to say, Oscar, you have one of the greatest laughs I've ever heard.
3:56 Speaker 06 Oh yeah. People always, always say this.
4:00 Pablo Torre? You do, you really do. So, I want to confess something in the spirit of goodwill and friendship, because you invited me into your home.
4:10 Speaker 06 Yes.
4:10 Pablo Torre? I'm sitting with you on your couch. And I want to confess that I didn't really know your story until this past week, when I started reporting the story. And I decided that I need to sit on this man's couch and talk to him in person. Because I think it's really important for people to understand your story. So, sorry and thank you for having me.
4:34 Pablo Torre? I want people to know your legend.
4:37 Speaker 06 Yeah.
4:38 Pablo Torre? Because you have these amazing, some of the best nicknames.
4:41 Speaker 06 Yes.
4:41 Pablo Torre? So in Italy, your nickname was what?
4:43 Speaker 06 It's "The Holy Hand."
4:45 Pablo Torre? "The Holy Hand"
4:46 Speaker 06 "The Holy Hand."
4:47 Pablo Torre? Is a [bleep] awesome, excuse me. An amazing, an amazing nickname.
4:51 Speaker 06 We're gonna cut this, right?
4:52 Pablo Torre? Yeah, yeah, we're gonna cut this. Don't want to commit heresy while talking about "The Holy Hand." But explain "The Holy Hand" as a nickname.
5:00 Speaker 06 It's, that's a something that-
5:02 Pablo Torre? Which hand is it?
5:04 Speaker 06 Right.
5:04 Pablo Torre? Yeah.
5:05 Speaker 06 I don't use anything here. Here I have a full of things.
5:08 Pablo Torre? Yeah, you happen to have your giant Hall of Fame ring.
5:11 Speaker 06 That's a Hall of Fame-
5:11 Pablo Torre? On your middle finger on your left hand, the unholy hand.
5:14 Speaker 06 Hold it. This is tough.
5:16 Pablo Torre? Yeah, this is-
5:17 Speaker 06 And one of the-
5:17 Pablo Torre? Holding Oscar Schmidt's Hall of Fame ring is, is, is a bucket list thing for me. Now that I've learned exactly why you are deserving of this, of this title.
5:33 Pablo Torre? Alright, so the reason I have traveled here, the reason I have come to Oscar Schmidt's vacation home in Orlando is because I wanted to find out the parts of his story that cannot be Googled. Because yes, you can look up Oscar and you can see that he scored the most points in Olympic history. He scored 29 a game for the Brazilian national team. He dropped a record 55 on Spain in 1988. And you can also see that Oscar Schmidt, now 66 years old, has also scored more points than any basketball player ever.
6:09 Pablo Torre? And he played across Brazil, across Italy, across Spain. He has the world basketball points record, which has stood from the day he retired back in 2003. It is the one scoring record that LeBron James has not yet broken. But when I showed up at Oscar's house in Orlando, what he told me immediately was that Americans don't really even do this. They don't show up, they don't ask him to tell his side of his own story. And what I realized was that as a journalist who fell in love with the game, with basketball, because of the '92 Dream Team, with Michael and Magic and Larry and Team USA, even Christian Leder, I was on that exact same track to be like everybody else.
6:55 Pablo Torre? I watched you get inducted to the Basketball Hall of Fame.
6:58 Speaker 06 Of course.
6:59 Pablo Torre? And the man who walks you down the aisle.
7:01 Speaker 06 Was Larry Bird.
7:02 Pablo Torre? Was Larry [bleep] Bird.
7:04 Speaker 06 My idol.
7:05 Speaker 07 Welcoming Oscar to the Hall of Fame is Larry Bird. Ladies and gentlemen, Oscar Schmidt.
7:18 Speaker 06 It's too easy to have Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant as an idol. The guy flies around and do whatever he wants. It's too easy. My guy doesn't run, doesn't jump, and play the best of everybody else. He's here.
7:45 Speaker 06 Larry Bird was my idol my whole life.
7:48 Pablo Torre? Well, it seems like he also respects you.
7:50 Speaker 06 Of course, because I played almost like him. My coach in Italy said to me one time, "You should be Larry Bird."
8:00 Pablo Torre? "Just be Larry Bird" is some good coaching.
8:02 Speaker 06 Be Larry Bird is a good thing.
8:06 Pablo Torre? I was watching clips of Kobe Bryant.
8:08 Speaker 06 Yeah.
8:08 Pablo Torre? And Kobe Bryant was talking about how you, Oscar, were his favorite player.
8:13 Speaker 06 Kobe Bryant was different.
8:15 Speaker 08 He was my guy.
8:17 Speaker 09 Let me tell you a story.
8:19 Speaker 08 He was Bird before I ever had a chance to see what Bird was.
8:24 Speaker 09 I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you the Oscar Schmidt too now. Yeah, Oscar Schmidt, yes, yes. We had 47 in the U.S. in the Pan Am Games.
8:32 Speaker 06 His dad plays in Italy.
8:34 Pablo Torre? And he grew up playing in Italy?
8:35 Speaker 06 He grew up, watching me beat his dad every year. He said to his father that he likes me. Joe said, "No, no, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan." I said, "No, no, no, no, no, no. You lose to Oscar every year, I will continue with Oscar."
8:58 Pablo Torre? So, which is all to say that you're kind of partially responsible for Kobe Bryant becoming the player that he was.
9:05 Speaker 06 That's incredible.
9:05 Pablo Torre? Isn't that, I mean, with the record that is in the news right now, right, is that you are the leading scorer in world basketball history. You have the most total points of any human being who has ever walked the earth. And so you're ahead of currently LeBron James, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Karl Malone, Michael Jordan. So what is your record? How many total points?
9:26 Speaker 06 49,737. And I'm very proud of that because I never played for records. I always played to win games, to win championships, to be the best.
9:39 Pablo Torre? What would Oscar Schmidt's NBA career have been like?
9:42 Speaker 06 I would be top 10. Sure that I'll be top 10. Me, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, and all the rest that played in the Dream Team.
9:50 Pablo Torre? You're 100% positive?
9:53 Speaker 06 Of course.
9:54 Pablo Torre? So I want, I want to make the case here, though, that you're not just the greatest basketball player that never played in the NBA. I want to explore the possibility that you're actually the most underappreciated basketball player
10:10 Speaker 06 Yes.
10:11 Pablo Torre? to ever live.
10:12 Speaker 06 And I live with that, and I live good with that.
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11:05 Speaker 00 Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.
11:11 Speaker 01 Love the crown molding.
11:13 Speaker 00 Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.
11:17 Speaker 01 Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet.
11:20 Speaker 00 No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.
11:24 Speaker 01 No FiOS? Yeah, no thank you.
11:27 Speaker 00 Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.
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12:31 Pablo Torre? So the case I'm here to make today is not simply that Oscar Schmidt is really underrated at basketball.
12:39 Pablo Torre? But it is funny to me when I make these calls, as I have been all month, to longtime coaches and longtime analysts like Fran Fraschilla, these guys who have been professionally scouting internationally, in specific, for decades, that they can't really help themselves.
12:57 Speaker 12 So Oscar was ahead of his time. And if Oscar had come in his prime, we would be thinking about Oscar in a way that we think of probably Luka, Dirk, or Jokic, because he was truly a great player. His strength was scoring the ball. Great shooter, could score from anywhere on the floor, and very confident, cocky guy. And he would have been, his personality, he would have been a great fit for the modern NBA. And with the three-point line nowadays, he really would have been a magical player to watch. You know, the Steph Currys of the world don't realize, probably didn't know until they did their homework, that there were guys like this that could really shoot it just like them.
13:37 Pablo Torre? And that is not an exaggeration, by the way. For his career, Oscar averaged almost 45% from three. It would have been second all-time in the NBA if he did it in the NBA. Number one was Steve Kerr, a guy who, it is worth noting, attempted less than two three-pointers per game. Oscar, by contrast, attempted eight and a half threes per game. Eight and a half, which would have been second career only to Steph Curry in the league. But the biggest difference with Oscar, by far, is that when he was doing all of this [BLEEP] in the late 80s, nobody else was, anywhere. I mean, just look it up.
14:19 Pablo Torre? In 87, the Dallas Mavericks led the NBA by attempting eight threes per game. As a team, Oscar shot more than that by himself.
14:30 Pablo Torre? That was my objective. Shoot more than anybody. Did people try to convince you not to do that? Yes, all my coaches.
14:40 Speaker 06 Shoot sometimes, Oscar, not many. But when I do 10 from 11, 8 from 8, oh, you did good, eh?
14:48 Pablo Torre? Yeah, when you score 49,000 points, it's like, okay. Maybe this guy was on to something. But who gave you the idea at 6 foot 9? Because it's also that you're taller than everybody.
14:59 Speaker 06 It's obvious. If you have a line that say from here to there, it's 3 points. Why you gonna shoot 2?
15:10 Speaker 06 Ariv Dau.
15:11 Pablo Torre? Your coach.
15:12 Speaker 06 Our coach. He gave me chocolates when I get rebound. Because I was more to offense and then he must defend something. And then he gave me this present, this chocolate. And one day, I went to the hospital.
15:32 Speaker 06 Because during the practice,
15:37 Speaker 06 I was with a bag with 55 of these chocolates. And I ate it from one day to the other, all 55.
15:48 Pablo Torre? So your approach...
15:49 Speaker 06 And I start to piss brown.
15:52 Pablo Torre? You're saying, Oscar, your approach to eating chocolates was your approach to shooting 3s.
15:57 Speaker 06 Of course.
15:57 Pablo Torre? As many as you can get, you wanted to take those.
16:00 Speaker 06 Because I didn't like a lot defense. But I knew that I must guard somebody. And that's the reason that he gave me this chocolates. Get some rebound, Oscar, come on.
16:18 Pablo Torre? With all of this understood, I want to get to the enormous decision that ensured why I, growing up, and why lots of Americans in my generation and younger, and older too, why we don't know your story. Which is, you chose not to play in the NBA.
16:36 Speaker 13 For the next 3 hours, the USA Cable Network wishes you to join us for the 1984 NBA Draft.
16:44 Pablo Torre? I want to ask you about... The fact that you get drafted.
16:48 Speaker 06 Yes.
16:48 Pablo Torre? By the Nets, this is 40 years ago now, 1984. That's Michael Jordan, that's Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley. Those are the guys who get drafted in the top five picks.
16:57 Speaker 06 Of course.
16:57 Pablo Torre? And so, sixth round, you get taken 131st overall. And so, your feeling, your first reaction to being the 131st pick was what?
17:08 Speaker 06 Come on, man. If you want me, get me the first round. I could say to him a lot of bad words, but I keep it up and I go there.
17:21 Pablo Torre? So you go to the Nets?
17:24 Speaker 06 So then, I go to the Nets, I go to the camp of Nets.
17:26 Pablo Torre? You go to America?
17:27 Speaker 06 And I asked him, who is the first choice? Ah, it's Jeff Turner. Jeff Turner played in Italy and I kick his butt every year.
17:36 Speaker 06 And then, I go there and said to the coach, "Coach, here's one point a minute. If you give me 20 minutes, I give you 20 points." We played five games against the rookies of the other teams. They gave me 25 minutes, I gave him 25 points. They become crazy about me.
17:57 Pablo Torre? You played five of training camp games?
17:59 Speaker 06 Yes.
18:00 Pablo Torre? And you just shot a million three?
18:02 Speaker 06 Where is Jeff Turner? Ah, he cannot come, he was first choice. First choice, he should be here, showing us that he was the first choice. And I said no to the contract.
18:13 Pablo Torre? Well, I want to explain how we get to that point because there's this rule.
18:18 Speaker 06 Yeah.
18:18 Pablo Torre? And it's a FIBA rule.
18:19 Speaker 06 FIBA rule.
18:20 Pablo Torre? And it says NBA players specifically are not allowed to play in the Olympics, in these, represent their country on the national team. It was an NBA-specific rule.
18:30 Speaker 06 If you play just one game in NBA on that time, you could not play never more with your national team.
18:38 Pablo Torre? Right.
18:39 Speaker 06 And for me, national team was first one. Second, the teams, but national team, you represent a country. So, for me, was the best thing.
18:52 Pablo Torre? How would you describe at the time how the NBA viewed international players?
18:58 Speaker 06 They don't view international.
19:00 Pablo Torre? Did it feel like disrespect?
19:02 Speaker 06 Of course.
19:03 Pablo Torre? And so for you, the decision not to sign with the Nets, which was a decision to not go to the NBA, how difficult was that decision in the end?
19:12 Speaker 06 Easy. They offered me the contract, and I don't want it. I just want to know if I am capable. And today, I know that I am capable to play in the NBA.
19:22 Pablo Torre? So you just went to training camp to prove
19:23 Speaker 06 Yes.
19:24 Pablo Torre? that if you did decide to do it, you could do it.
19:26 Speaker 06 Why six rounds? Come on, man, I know how to play basketball.
19:30 Pablo Torre? And so you go back to Italy, right? You're playing in Italy, you're scoring a million points in Italy. And the next year, in 1985, you encounter one of the guys that you would have played against in the NBA had you decided to go. And it's an exhibition game.
19:47 Speaker 06 Who was he?
19:48 Pablo Torre? I wanted to know about the game you played against Michael Jordan.
19:51 Speaker 06 Oh, yes.
19:52 Pablo Torre? And I have a video, because I want you to just re-watch this video that I have.
20:02 Pablo Torre? What happens is Michael Jordan goes up, he dunks, and the entire backboard shatters.
20:07 Speaker 06 Yes.
20:07 Pablo Torre? And the glass is covering your teammates?
20:10 Speaker 06 Two teammates.
20:11 Pablo Torre? And where are you on the court as this is happening?
20:12 Speaker 06 I was not close to there.
20:14 Pablo Torre? So you didn't get hit by the glass?
20:16 Speaker 06 I didn't get hit. But I saw the hand of Tatu Lopez. I saw the tendon going back and forth.
20:23 Pablo Torre? Oh, my God.
20:24 Speaker 06 And Pietro Genellari has a cut here like this.
20:27 Pablo Torre? On his side, on his right side.
20:29 Speaker 06 So he took two players of our team.
20:32 Pablo Torre? Right.
20:33 Speaker 06 I said to him, "You're not from the earth." And he responded, "You too." And this phrase that he gave it to me, I bring with me my whole life. If the best player, as you all guys say, that Michael Jordan is the best player, said that to me, come on.
20:56 Pablo Torre? Right.
20:57 Speaker 06 He knew me.
21:00 Pablo Torre? So, the biggest, though, the biggest, most shattering game that you played in, against future NBA stars now. This was two years after that game in Italy. It's 1987. It's in the United States. It's Indianapolis, Indiana, and it's the Pan Am Games. And so I want to explain for people, Oscar, the Pan Am Games were a huge deal.
21:22 Speaker 14 From the dawn of civilization in the Americas, the spirit of human achievement has inspired feats of monumental proportions. Like the ancient temples they built, the Incas, Aztecs, and Mayas embodied strength, discipline, and vision. And out of the ruins of this storied past lives a spirit that continues today in the Pan American Games.
21:43 Pablo Torre? It's basically the Continental Olympics. It's North and South America, Central America, the Caribbean. There's a parade. The whole thing is broadcast on CBS. It's enormous.
21:53 Speaker 14 Indianapolis, the capital of Indiana, and center stage for the 10th Pan American Games.
22:00 Pablo Torre? And this game, the gold medal game, was held at an actual NBA arena.
22:05 Speaker 06 Of course.
22:05 Pablo Torre? It was Market Square Arena. It's where the Pacers played. It's sold out.
22:09 Speaker 06 Yeah.
22:10 Pablo Torre? They had won 34 straight games. They had, Oscar, they never...
22:13 Speaker 06 They never lose in the United States.
22:14 Pablo Torre? They had never lost in the United States, ever. And so, what is your expectation, if you're being honest?
22:22 Speaker 06 Yes.
22:22 Pablo Torre? Entering this game as you're with the Brazilian national team.
22:24 Speaker 06 My expectation was lose by 50.
22:29 Pablo Torre? So, this team has David Robinson, Danny Manning, Rex Chapman, Hervis Ellis, and all these NBA guys, the biggest stars in college, right? And do you think they took you seriously?
22:42 Speaker 06 They didn't took us serious.
22:48 Pablo Torre? Nobody in America seemed to take them seriously. I mean, the head coach of Team USA, Denny Crum, didn't even remember the leading scorer of Brazil's name, which happened to rhyme with, um, Bosque Mitt. And at the opening ceremonies, a CBS broadcast couldn't even name a single opponent, a single country, they were worried about.
23:08 Speaker 15 In your mind, is there any team that can pose a threat to the U.S.? Well, I've only seen a couple practice. But in all reality, Vern, this is a very, very strong team. As a matter of fact, I think the contingency that we have here is as strong as the club we had that won the Pan Am gold the last time and the Olympic Games in L.A. It's a very strong team.
23:25 Pablo Torre? But Oscar and Brazil made the gold medal game. And immediately proved pretty much everybody right by going down by almost 30. Around this point, the entire American press corps, it turns out, made a pretty memorable decision, which Mike Wilbon, who was there with the Washington Post, confessed to me.
23:46 Speaker 16 The writers, the sports writers covering the game for the biggest newspapers and smallest ones across the United States of America said, "That's it. We've been here 23 days," or whatever it is. "We're packing up." And people packed up and they left press row. They left. And we went back in the back of the Market Square press room and we talked about the games, about what had happened, about track and field and boxing and basketball. And then somebody rushed into the press room and said, "Hey, it's down to nine."
24:21 Speaker 13 And this game has tightened up considerably. This is the gold medal game in men's basketball. Dick Stockton and Billy Packer. At one time, the USA had a 20-point lead, but Brazil cut it to four moments ago before Willie Anderson stretched it to six. A 13-4 run by Brazil has tightened this game up, led by the great Oscar Schmidt. And a physical affair at that, Billy.
24:46 Pablo Torre? So I want to understand what changed in this game, because you guys are down 26, and then suddenly the comeback starts.
24:54 Speaker 06 One day, I was talking with Senna. Senna, the-
24:57 Pablo Torre? The great F1-
24:58 Speaker 06 F1-
24:58 Pablo Torre? Brazilian legend.
25:00 Speaker 06 And he told me, "I talk to God, Oscar."
25:07 Speaker 06 "I talk to God too."
25:10 Speaker 06 Talk to God is something that's almost perfect.
25:16 Speaker 13 Right now, what we have, our one club just is completely on emotional high. Schmidt with three more, Billy, and it's now a one-point game.
25:27 Speaker 06 It's something extreme. You are, in a way, that you see the game in slow motion, but you were not in slow motion.
25:39 Speaker 13 Schmidt gives Brazil the lead with a three-pointer. He has 28 points, 17 this half. Oscar is putting on more of a show here, not only with his shooting, but the emotion. He's gonna drain himself here just with his celebrations after the shots.
25:56 Speaker 06 It's unbelievable. And I had this sensation like, almost 30 times.
26:04 Speaker 13 Boy, Oscar has got no conscience with his three-pointer. I don't know anybody I've ever seen that loves to score more than he does.
26:11 Speaker 06 All the shots I did, I remember everyone.
26:14 Pablo Torre? You had at least six in the second half, six threes in the second half.
26:17 Speaker 06 Six.
26:18 Pablo Torre? But there are some, I was watching the video.
26:19 Speaker 06 I thought it was seven.
26:20 Pablo Torre? I think it was, maybe it was all seven in the second half.
26:24 Speaker 13 Marcel Sosa, Schmidt hits a three. That's seven three-point shots.
26:29 Pablo Torre? I'm gonna do my accounting.
26:32 Pablo Torre? But I was watching the video and you're, you're pulling up. And no one's there to rebound it, you're being guarded.
26:39 Speaker 06 Yeah, of course, because I score like that. All my coaches say like this, "Did you see it? No rebound?" "Yeah, I saw."
26:47 Pablo Torre? Yeah, no one was down there.
26:48 Speaker 06 No one there.
26:49 Pablo Torre? To pick up the rebound.
26:51 Speaker 06 Even without anybody to rebound.
26:55 Pablo Torre? When you're in the second half of the 87 gold medal game, do you remember any particular moment, a favorite shot that you had, that you took in the second half?
27:05 Speaker 06 There was one one that I miss. Israel get the rebound, that was his mission. And call me, "Oscar, come on again."
27:15 Speaker 13 Three-point attempt again by Schmidt. Not that time, but the rebound by Andrade. Schmidt again, three-pointer.
27:22 Speaker 06 Boom, and I score. There is this shot in the, in the, in the videotape.
27:28 Pablo Torre? When you watch the video, what becomes clear is that few people in the history of basketball have ever had a more green light to shoot.
27:37 Speaker 06 Oh, no.
27:38 Pablo Torre? Do you remember one of the things you said after or before making a shot?
27:44 Speaker 06 No, I just screamed.
27:58 Pablo Torre? When you watch the tape, it is remarkable. You hit a shot and you scream.
28:03 Speaker 06 Yes.
28:04 Pablo Torre? Running the other way.
28:04 Speaker 06 Of course. They must know who they are playing against.
28:12 Speaker 06 I was that guy that don't come to the United Nations because of national team, and I was playing with my national team.
28:19 Pablo Torre? Wilbon also told me that you guys were, you were like slapping yourself in the face?
28:24 Speaker 06 Yes.
28:25 Speaker 16 Oscar Schmidt keeps hitting shots. He's hitting shots and he's slapping his own face on the way back down the court backpedaling.
28:35 Speaker 06 I'm awake, I'm awake. Come on, give him the ball.
28:38 Pablo Torre? You're like, alright, I'm Oscar Schmidt, you're reminding yourself.
28:43 Pablo Torre? He said he had never seen that before in his life.
28:44 Speaker 06 Nobody asked me that. Nobody. Even in Brazil. That people that saw the game. Everybody saw that game.
28:54 Pablo Torre? You're telling me it took you, again, 1987, 2024, took you almost 40 years for someone to ask you, "Why were you slapping yourself in the face during the most pivotal game of perhaps international basketball history?"
29:08 Speaker 06 I thought I was sleepy.
29:11 Speaker 06 Come on, man. I'm awake.
29:21 Pablo Torre? The scene of when the buzzer sounds and the final score. Again, you finished with 46 points, you scored 35 in the second half. It's one of the greatest comebacks, the most shocking things that's happened in international basketball history. Brazil beats Team USA 120 to 115. And I want to just play that final scene from the game for you. Because I want you to tell me what you were feeling.
29:50 Speaker 06 So Marcel, I dry in the floor, crying. Because for me was not possible, what happened here.
29:59 Pablo Torre? Right. You fall on the floor, you're crying.
30:01 Speaker 06 Crying. Because when you win something that you're not supposed to win, most of the times you cry. If you are emotional. I was very emotional. And all the, all the, our, our players are crying.
30:16 Pablo Torre? Oh, your guys are all falling to the floor, you're on your back, you're yelling. What are you yelling? You're saying something.
30:21 Speaker 06 Yeah, we won. We won that game in Portuguese.
30:25 Pablo Torre? Which is what?
30:26 Speaker 06 Which was, ganhamos a merda!
30:33 Pablo Torre? So what did you prove?
30:34 Speaker 06 And then, and they knocked the door of our locker room and said to us, we don't have your anthem.
30:42 Pablo Torre? After the game, the Brazilian national anthem.
30:44 Speaker 06 Then we go from here to the airport. No, no, please don't do that. I'll try to, to, to have your anthem. They take like forty minutes to have the anthem ready. And then, we go, was just the beginning of the anthem. And we start to, to, to sing without the anthem. That's much more emotional.
31:19 Pablo Torre? What do you think you proved that day? What did Brazil prove that day?
31:22 Speaker 06 Brazil proved that basketball is universal, not just in America. That's the proof that we, we made in that game.
31:31 Pablo Torre? This is what Mike Wilbon wrote for the Washington Post. He said this, quote, "The Americans sat on the bench stunned, their faces looking like they'd seen the end of the world."
31:41 Speaker 06 Yeah. I have a picture of that. And I, você tá com meu laptop, hein? And I'll show you this picture.
31:49 Pablo Torre? Yeah.
31:50 Speaker 06 Looks like they, they died and there was more ten minutes to play.
31:55 Pablo Torre? Right.
32:00 Pablo Torre? I do like how you just have this photo that you can look at.
32:07 Pablo Torre? Yeah, that looks like people have seen the end of the world.
32:10 Speaker 06 Bad is there. Olha a carinha. Vão perder mesmo.
32:14 Pablo Torre? Which means?
32:15 Speaker 06 Look at the faces. They're gonna lose.
32:20 Pablo Torre? I did want to show you something, a video that I brought that you have not seen before.
32:23 Speaker 06 Yeah.
32:24 Pablo Torre? Because, uh, somebody that I know is one of the guys on that team, on Team USA that you beat. And this is a message for you from Rex Chapman.
32:35 Speaker 06 Wow.
32:36 Pablo Torre? Okay? You can play, just hit.
32:40 Speaker 05 Oscar Schmidt. It's Rex Chapman. First, [BLEEP] you. And I love you. It's been a long time, man. We were in command of that ballgame, if you remember, at halftime. And Oscar Schmidt came out of halftime and put the Brazilian team on your back.
33:03 Speaker 05 You got so hot, you could kick them in, and there was nothing that we could do. We lose the game. I've never been in a locker room more disappointed, sad, crying. You did a lot of that, Oscar. I love you, buddy. Be proud. What a life, what a career. See ya.
33:23 Speaker 06 Beautiful.
33:24 Pablo Torre? He didn't say [BLEEP] you at the start.
33:26 Speaker 06 But I loved [BLEEP] you. Because with somebody say to somebody who beat you,
33:34 Speaker 06 [BLEEP] you.
33:37 Speaker 06 Nice, man, nice, real nice.
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34:35 Speaker 00 Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.
34:41 Speaker 01 Love the crown molding.
34:43 Speaker 00 Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.
34:47 Speaker 01 Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet.
34:50 Speaker 00 No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.
34:54 Speaker 01 No FiOS? Yeah, no thank you.
34:57 Speaker 00 Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.
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35:40 Pablo Torre? In many ways, ways that I in no way appreciated growing up as a kid in the 90s, the most important part of Oscar's story is what happened next. Because after the US lost to Oscar and Brazil, this soccer country in America, this unprecedented humiliation on home soil, Team USA then lost to our Vida Subbonus and the Soviet Union the next year in Korea in the 88 Olympics. And all of this led to a legislative change. In 1989, that changed everything forever. Because at long last, FIBA decided to lift its ban on NBA players from international competitions. It was the same ban that had made Oscar Schmidt stay abroad in the first place.
36:24 Pablo Torre? It was a rule that a panicked America now demanded.
36:32 Speaker 17 The Dream Team, the finest collection of basketball players ever assembled. Superstars and superheroes playing together on one team. For one reason and one reason only: Payback.
36:48 Speaker 06 We talk about when we reunite the national team. We talk about the Dream Team. What do you say? It's our fault. If we didn't won that game, there is no Dream Team.
37:03 Pablo Torre? Right.
37:03 Speaker 06 Yeah, simple like this. And I know this.
37:09 Speaker 06 You can say whatever you want, but I know this. I know that's something unbelievable. The Dream Team is playing because our team. Basketball, Brazilian basketball team.
37:25 Pablo Torre? This is the embarrassing part for me, Oscar. So I grew up, I was six years old when it was the 92 Olympics in Barcelona, and I fell in love with the NBA because of the Dream Team.
37:36 Speaker 06 Yes.
37:38 Pablo Torre? What I did not realize until reporting your story is how personally responsible you were for the formation of the Dream Team.
37:47 Speaker 06 Yes, of course.
37:48 Pablo Torre? Because you beat Team USA, that leads to the rule being lifted, which leads to Larry Bird, to the Barcelona Olympics. I mean, it gets to the basketball that became the global game.
38:02 Speaker 06 Of course.
38:03 Pablo Torre? And so all around the world, because of the Dream Team, a young Pau Gasol.
38:08 Speaker 06 Who is responsible for the Dream Team?
38:09 Pablo Torre? Yes, so a young Pau Gasol, a young Dirk Nowitzki, a young Tony Parker, a young Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Joel Embiid, Giannis Antetokounmpo.
38:19 Speaker 06 Yes.
38:19 Pablo Torre? You're the first domino that results in the Dream Team exporting basketball, which leads to all of the great international players who did the thing that you did not do, which is they went to the NBA. And so the guy who never set foot in the NBA became responsible for all of the international players
38:41 Speaker 06 Yes.
38:42 Pablo Torre? who would. And that's a fucking incredible thing.
38:45 Speaker 06 They made the Dream Team for what?
38:48 Pablo Torre? To get revenge on you.
38:50 Speaker 06 Yes, on me, on Thibodeau.
38:53 Pablo Torre? Yes.
38:53 Speaker 06 On all the big players that the world had.
38:55 Pablo Torre? The international guys.
38:57 Speaker 06 Yes.
38:57 Pablo Torre? How dare they come and beat the Americans at their own game? The fact that you're the reason is one of the great, just like revelations for me as a fan. Did you ever consider, when they lifted the rule, when Feeble lifted the rule that said you could play in the NBA and play in the national team?
39:15 Speaker 06 Yes.
39:15 Pablo Torre? Did you ever consider going to the NBA at that point?
39:18 Speaker 06 Yeah, but I was a little old. I don't play like I did play. Because I was tough. I was very tough. And I played better than many players in America, so I could play in NBA for sure. Because I had this instinct. The killer instinct. That when you shoot the ball, you know that the ball goes in. And few players have this instinct. And I had it. I used it in Italy. I used it in Spain. And I was very happy. NBA wouldn't change my game, wouldn't change my personality, nothing. So, and I, when I was invited,
40:01 Speaker 06 I think about come. But I did not play like I played years before.
40:08 Pablo Torre? So when the 92 Olympics happened, and it's Barcelona?
40:12 Speaker 06 Yes.
40:12 Pablo Torre? And it's Magic and Michael and Larry and Charles and all those guys?
40:16 Speaker 06 Everyone was there.
40:18 Pablo Torre? They get their revenge on you. They do.
40:19 Speaker 06 I know, but it was not the revenge. Because all the best basketball players in the world are playing with dust. We don't have a dead team that could beat the Dream Team. We have a good team that could beat that college team. But not the Dream Team from NBA. Michael Jordan. Everyone was there.
40:42 Pablo Torre? No, I mean, this is why I fell in love with the game. It was because I was watching these guys blow. I mean, look, Brazil, you guys lost this 127 to 83. You had 24 points in 30 minutes. I was growing up in the United States, son of immigrants from the Philippines, who didn't really know sports.
40:59 Speaker 06 I played Philippines.
41:00 Pablo Torre? Really?
41:01 Speaker 06 They have a good basketball.
41:02 Pablo Torre? We love basketball. My god.
41:04 Speaker 06 The tournament that Philippines does are incredible.
41:09 Pablo Torre? Yeah, the fans are, everybody.
41:12 Speaker 06 I love basketball Philippines.
41:14 Pablo Torre? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I say all of that to just say that...
41:20 Pablo Torre? The game got exported
41:22 Speaker 06 Yes.
41:23 Pablo Torre? in the process of them destroying everybody in the Olympics, including you.
41:27 Speaker 06 We didn't think about this at the moment, but after going the days, the months, the years, we think about it.
41:36 Pablo Torre? And so here's the other domino in this procession. The only reason you were able to play in the Pan Am Games in 1987 was because you didn't go to the Nets and you didn't go to the NBA
41:53 Speaker 06 See?
41:53 Pablo Torre? 40 years ago.
41:54 Speaker 06 That's what I think at the time.
41:57 Pablo Torre? You saw this all coming? You said to yourself, if I, Oscar Schmidt, go to the Nets as a sixth-round pick, the dream team in 1992 will never be formed.
42:06 Speaker 06 No, I didn't think-
42:07 Pablo Torre? Basketball will never be the same again.
42:08 Speaker 06 I was not that profound. But when we won that game, that-
42:15 Pablo Torre? You said, "I'm so glad that I was able to do this."
42:19 Speaker 06 Unbelievable.
42:19 Pablo Torre? Because I never went over there.
42:20 Speaker 06 That was an unbelievable thing that happens in basketball.
42:24 Pablo Torre? Your decision in 84 to not go to the NBA
42:27 Speaker 06 Yes.
42:27 Pablo Torre? is the first domino
42:28 Speaker 06 Yes.
42:29 Pablo Torre? that sets into motion everything we've been talking about.
42:33 Speaker 06 You discover everything.
42:36 Pablo Torre? I try to find out some stuff.
42:39 Speaker 06 You can say you're a good reporter.
42:41 Pablo Torre? Oscar Schmidt, put that on the movie poster, put it on the podcast poster, Pablo Torre finds out. I want to ask you about just the present tense now.
42:51 Speaker 06 Yes.
42:51 Pablo Torre? Because you watch basketball, you alluded to this. But when you were playing basketball, again, nobody was playing like you in the NBA. And so when you watch the NBA today in 2024, Oscar, what do you see?
43:02 Speaker 06 I look for Luka Doncic, I look for Jokic, I look for all the foreign players, much more than American players, because they are better than American players. They are much better. If you look, Jokic, Jogan, playing. This guy is gonna win the third time the best player.
43:22 Pablo Torre? Another guy who can't really jump, but can shoot and pass.
43:26 Speaker 06 But can shoot, can do anything he wants. He is a guy that, I don't know because he already did a few games that he didn't make triple double. But was the guy to make triple double on median?
43:42 Pablo Torre? Yes, yes, averaging a triple double.
43:45 Speaker 06 He's unbelievable. One day I saw him was shooting, boom, pass the ball behind him.
43:52 Pablo Torre? It's not super relevant to an NBA game, but.
43:57 Pablo Torre? Yeah, I saw that one. I saw that play.
44:01 Pablo Torre? But even, but what's crazy is that even the Americans play like you. That's the thing.
44:06 Speaker 06 If you don't shoot from trees, you don't win anymore.
44:09 Pablo Torre? So I'm watching Steph Curry, I'm watching Damian Lillard. Everybody plays like Oscar Schmidt now.
44:13 Speaker 06 His friend, Thompson.
44:16 Pablo Torre? Oh, Klay Thompson.
44:17 Speaker 06 Wow, he's unbelievable. He's the guy that I admire more.
44:21 Pablo Torre? Really? Klay, you like Klay the most?
44:23 Speaker 06 Oh, of course. His shot, it's always the same. If he shoots from two, it's the same as if he shoots from three. Same shot.
44:33 Pablo Torre? You know what? Now that you mention it, it reminds me of watching you.
44:36 Speaker 06 Ah, of course.
44:37 Pablo Torre? The mechanics are always, always consistent.
44:40 Speaker 06 The guy, voo, boom.
44:42 Pablo Torre? Yeah.
44:43 Speaker 06 Next shot will be, boom, the same.
44:46 Pablo Torre? And even the shot being overhead.
44:47 Speaker 06 Yes, that's why I like him very much.
44:50 Pablo Torre? Do you feel like the players in the NBA know your story?
44:56 Speaker 06 Many knows, but many don't know. And I feel this in the air.
45:02 Pablo Torre? What does it feel like to you?
45:03 Speaker 06 I feel like you don't know me, okay, no problem, go with your team.
45:12 Speaker 06 I don't get upset about this, but I see.
45:17 Pablo Torre? Yeah, well, I think there's a key thing, which even even this story, right? I'm trying to tell it to people. And I think that the first impression that they have is, "But this guy never played in the NBA."
45:29 Speaker 06 Never played. I never played in the NBA because I didn't want it.
45:32 Pablo Torre? And so what? Describe just that part of this story. The idea that your entire life, you've had to sort of remind people that even though you never played in the NBA, you still have a story worth hearing.
45:47 Speaker 06 I will say. What camera? Here.
45:50 Pablo Torre? OK, let's pick that one, right in the middle.
45:52 Speaker 06 OK. "I never played in NBA because I didn't want to play in NBA because New Jersey Nets drafted me at sixth round. Choice 131. That's why I never played in NBA, because I get offended with that."
46:12 Pablo Torre? Fuck you.
46:13 Speaker 06 Fuck you too.
46:33 Pablo Torre? The reason you're back in the news lately, though, is because you have this record, the all-time points record, which again is 49,000 and how many?
46:41 Speaker 06 737.
46:42 Pablo Torre? 737. So LeBron James is about to pass you. It's just a matter of time.
46:50 Speaker 06 Yes.
46:50 Pablo Torre? He's on pace to do it. He may be doing it as we're talking right now. I don't know. Are you watching LeBron play these games?
46:57 Speaker 06 I love the way he plays because he's a good basketball player. He shoots from three. Every dunk he does looks like you're seeing a concourse of dunking shot, a dunking team. So he does, he make assist. He is a perfect player.
47:16 Pablo Torre? Do you care about your record being broken?
47:19 Speaker 06 No, because as you doing this, every journalist that I talk, people ask me, "Why do you care about LeBron James?" I'm, "No. Records are made it to be broken. So broke as fast as he want."
47:38 Speaker 06 Aye, aye.
47:39 Pablo Torre? You're different players, but you also have had similar goals, it seems like. Because not just being the all-time leading scorer in the history of basketball on planet Earth, but you guys have also, I mean, you retired at what age?
47:50 Speaker 06 Forty-five. I was persistent.
47:54 Pablo Torre? I've noticed. I've noticed this about you, Oscar, on this couch. Your persistence is a definite quality you have.
48:00 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah.
48:01 Pablo Torre? Do you have any advice for LeBron James as he tries to be...
48:03 Speaker 06 Keep playing the way you were playing. You broke my record soon.
48:09 Speaker 06 You listen, LeBron. Go like this, you'll be the first one in the world.
48:18 Pablo Torre? 2017, you're playing the Celebrity All-Star Game in New Orleans. I have never seen this before until I saw it. An actual Hall of Famer.
48:26 Speaker 06 Yes.
48:27 Pablo Torre? Playing next to, like, Ansel Elgort.
48:29 Speaker 06 Come on.
48:30 Pablo Torre? Did you know any of your teammates?
48:32 Speaker 06 I didn't know anybody, but I could play the whole game because I practiced one month every day to go to that game.
48:39 Pablo Torre? And so what is your review of your performance in the 2017 Celebrity All-Star Game?
48:44 Speaker 06 My performance, if I play the whole game, I will be the best of the game because I score. And the basketball game, first thing, you must score.
48:53 Speaker 06 Basketball is not made for good defenders. It's made for good offensive plays.
49:00 Pablo Torre? And so you took two shots.
49:02 Speaker 06 Two shots, come on. How I'll be the best of the game with two shots?
49:06 Pablo Torre? You were two for two.
49:15 Speaker 06 If I shot 10, I'll be 10 for 10.
49:17 Pablo Torre? So now, you're 66.
49:20 Speaker 06 66.
49:21 Pablo Torre? Is that right?
49:21 Speaker 06 Yes.
49:22 Pablo Torre? Do you still play?
49:24 Speaker 06 No. No, because I got fat a little bit, so I won't do the same thing that I did.
49:32 Pablo Torre? You look great, Oscar. You look great.
49:34 Speaker 06 No, but I don't play like I played before.
49:36 Pablo Torre? You don't even shoot anymore?
49:37 Speaker 06 No, nothing. I play soccer. I don't know if you play, if you want to play in my team? I don't know. I might see you playing before, once before.
49:46 Pablo Torre? You're scouting now?
49:47 Speaker 06 Yes.
49:48 Pablo Torre? Here's, okay, here's my scouting report. I don't play defense.
49:52 Speaker 06 Don't play defense in soccer?
49:53 Pablo Torre? Yeah.
49:53 Speaker 06 Okay, you're forgiven because I don't play defense too.
50:00 Speaker 06 But if the guy crossed the ball,
50:03 Pablo Torre? Yeah.
50:03 Speaker 06 Boom, my head is like a, my third leg.
50:09 Pablo Torre? Something that I noticed, I was, I was looking through, you have a YouTube channel also, and I want to point this out. You spend time in America, we're here in Orlando, you spend some time here, and talking to you and watching some of the videos you've been making in your free time, you seem incredibly American now.
50:26 Speaker 06 Yes.
50:26 Pablo Torre? You sometimes are wearing NFL jerseys. You're giving like opinions,
50:31 Speaker 06 Yes.
50:31 Pablo Torre? takes about the NFL.
50:33 Speaker 06 No, it's an opinion. I, I watch NFL a lot. Wow. Wow. Os Ravens foram campeões na NFL. Acabaram de ganhar o Super Bowl. Nossa, que jogo. Meu Deus do céu, que jogo. Faltou até Luis.
50:51 Pablo Torre? Do you feel like an American now?
50:53 Speaker 06 Yes. Much more than most Americans. Because first thing, here in Orlando, has Disney. And a fan of Disney.
51:05 Pablo Torre? Something that I, that I've realized, something I found out today is that you love Disney.
51:10 Speaker 06 I love Disney. And the best thing, you go to Epcot Center, sit on a bench, and watch the people growing, they're going. The best sneakers that I see in the world.
51:23 Speaker 06 People don't play, but have the best sneaker.
51:25 Pablo Torre? This is the most American shit ever, by the way. You wear an NFL jersey and you give takes into your computer camera. You go to Disney World's and you sit at Epcot Center and you judge all of the people wandering around. It's a small world.
51:37 Speaker 06 I'm a good judger.
51:41 Pablo Torre? One last question is, what is your greatest joy from your career?
51:46 Speaker 06 My greatest joy was beat the Americans at the Pan Am Games. That opened the...
51:53 Speaker 06 The doors for the pros playing every time. And I was a pro. And I could not play for NBA. I could not play with my national team. Come on, man.
52:05 Pablo Torre? If that rule did not exist, what would Oscar Schmidt's NBA career feel like?
52:10 Speaker 06 I would be top 10. Sure, that I'll be top 10. Me, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, and all the rest that played in the Dream Team. If that guy, big guy, what's the name of that big guy?
52:21 Pablo Torre? You'll have to be a little more specific, Oscar.
52:24 Speaker 06 Aquel que jogou no Dream Team.
52:25 Pablo Torre? No, no, no, no, no. Uh, Leitner?
52:27 Speaker 06 Leitner. If he plays in the Dream Team, I could play in the Dream Team too. Come on, he goes there to pass the ball. Shoot something, come on, man.
52:36 Pablo Torre? Shitting on Christian Leitner is another deeply American activity.
52:39 Speaker 06 Yes, of course.
52:44 Pablo Torre? Oscar Schmidt, the reason, it turns out, that I fell in love with basketball. Thank you for your time. Thank you for this couch.
52:51 Speaker 06 The reason. Oh, my man, thank you so much, man.
53:07 Pablo Torre? This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.
53:34 Speaker 00 Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.
53:40 Speaker 01 Love the crown molding.
53:42 Speaker 00 Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.
53:46 Speaker 01 Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet?
53:49 Speaker 00 No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.
53:53 Speaker 01 No FiOS? Yeah, no, thank you.
53:56 Speaker 00 Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.
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