Unlocking the Secrets of Quarterback Camelot, with Seth Wickersham

No job in America is more scrutinized, except for (maybe) the presidency. And yet no job is more misunderstood — even by the stars who mastered it. On the eve of a new football season, Pablo joins journalism's foremost QB scholar for a case study in royalty: How do the Mannings keep producing under-center superstars? What connects the Golden Age of Hollywood to John Elway? Is Tom Brady’s newsletter right about fatherhood? And why do Nick Saban’s assistants call him “Daddy”? • Buy Seth Wickersham’s new book, "American Kings: A Biography of the Quarterback" https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/789617/american-kings-by-seth-wickersham/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:08Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Apollo.io. A lot of the stories on this show start the same way. Something that looks pretty simple turns out to be a mess once you look under the hood. Well, it's no different in the sales world. Your team has a tool for finding prospects, a different tool for reaching out to them, and a third for keeping track of it all. On paper, that's a system. In practice, it's a salesperson spending the better part of the day copying names from one tab into another, and not much of it actually selling. Apollo.io is a platform that helps sales teams find the right buyers and reach out to them. It brings prospecting, outreach, and follow-up into one place, instead of several separate tools. It's used by sales teams of all sizes,

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• 2:27Speaker 03

  Louisville Soul Train. Louisville Soul Train.

• 2:31Pablo Torre?

  Right after this ad.

• 2:38Pablo Torre?

  So I keep getting these emails from Tom Brady.

• 2:41Speaker 05

  Oh, oh, as it happens.

• 2:43Pablo Torre?

  As it happens. You're a subscriber as well?

• 2:45Speaker 05

  I am.

• 2:45Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, to 199, his very exclusive mailing list, which we get updates about his trips to Japan.

• 2:53Speaker 05

  Exactly. How to make a margarita.

• 2:55Pablo Torre?

  How to make a margarita. How to refute what Scottie Scheffler said about fatherhood.

• 3:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's why I talk about families being my priority because it really is. You know, I'm blessed to be able to come out here and play golf. But if my golf ever started affecting my home life or it ever affected the relationship I have with my wife or with my son, you know, that's going to be the last day that I play out here for a living. You know, this is not the be all, end all. This is not the most important thing in my life. And that's why I wrestle with, why is this so important to me? Because, you know, I would much rather be a great father than I would be a great golfer.

• 3:30Pablo Torre?

  So I just need to clarify up top here that you're about to get an episode that was inspired less by the public vulnerability of Scottie Scheffler, the reigning number one golfer in the world, and more by the fact that the NFL season is almost upon us. And I have been preparing for it, in part, by devouring a new book that was written and reported by my guest today, Seth Wickersham of ESPN, who happens to understand the most glamorous job in America at this point better than probably any journalist alive. And so I think this is a way into it, into American Kings, a biography of the quarterback, which is a delight

• 4:14Pablo Torre?

  and as much about not football as it is about football in some ways.

• 4:18Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 4:18Pablo Torre?

  As is this email from Tom Brady, which is about how, wait a minute, you can in fact be the greatest quarterback of all time and the greatest dad. And when you read that email from Tom, having covered Tom since how long?

• 4:34Speaker 05

  2001.

• 4:36Pablo Torre?

  From the start?

• 4:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, from the start.

• 4:37Pablo Torre?

  When you were like walking across the field with him?

• 4:39Speaker 05

  We're the same age. We were walking outside of the old stadium and alongside the new one, which was being built. And he said, you know, I hope I get to play in that, if you can believe that.

• 4:51Pablo Torre?

  So much has happened since.

• 4:52Speaker 05

  So much.

• 4:53Pablo Torre?

  So much. Who would ever imagine that Jordan Hudson would be sitting in one of the... Anyway, that's a whole other episode. And that's for later this season, incidentally. But for now, let's go back to the greatest quarterback of all time.

• 5:09Pablo Torre?

  When you read that email from Tom, what did you think about his claim that, hold on, this is totally doable?

• 5:17Speaker 05

  I thought it was pure Brady because, for a couple of reasons. Number one, about 10 years ago, we sat in his living room trying to figure out a way to end football on his terms, which meant playing until your 40s and raising kids in a very unbalanced world to be balanced was like on his mind constantly. And when, I think if Brady has some repetitive themes in his career, it's that when faced with a choice, he chooses both and tries to say, well, why can't I? And so I think that to be a great quarterback, you have to be able to live in a little bit of a state of delusion. Now, the interesting thing about that, of course, is that it's very easy

• 6:02Speaker 05

  to quantify the greatest quarterback ever. It's very difficult to quantify the greatest dad ever.

• 6:07Pablo Torre?

  His ex-wife seemed to think the stats on the whole, like being around for the family, part of the ledger, not nearly as strong as the

• 6:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:19Pablo Torre?

  greatest of all time.

• 6:20Speaker 05

  Well, remember, I mean, he leaves New England. He goes to Tampa, wins the Super Bowl right away. And then on the field after the game, she comes up to him and she says,

• 6:31Speaker 07

  What more do you have to prove?

• 6:34Speaker 05

  And what did you say in that moment? What did you say?

• 6:38Speaker 07

  I just gave her a big hug. I was trying to figure out a way to change the subject really quick.

• 6:42Speaker 05

  You know, Brady smiles and he kind of giggles his way through it and chooses to not answer. Then, of course, he comes back again. Ends up retiring for like a month.

• 6:53Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 6:53Speaker 05

  And then comes back again. And so one of the things I get into in the book is you don't play quarterback. You are one, whether you're me in high school in Anchorage, Alaska.

• 7:05Pablo Torre?

  Which I do need to talk to you about.

• 7:07Speaker 05

  I don't know if we need to really go there.

• 7:08Pablo Torre?

  Oh.

• 7:09Speaker 05

  Alaska's Uncle Rico here. But um, it's your identity. It completely takes over you. And especially you think about someone like him. And how long he did it and how well he did it. And so that's not something you just leave. And it's not something that you just part ways with easily. And I asked a question at one point. You know, asking what more do you have to prove as she did? Maybe it wasn't the right question. Maybe the right question is like, why is quarterback worth it?

• 7:53Pablo Torre?

  And this whole thing, like the reason why this is a book that's about everything else, as well as the most popular and most important institution remaining in American life, is that a quarterback is a spokesman and a prom king? And fighter pilot?

• 8:10Speaker 05

  Totally. Steve Young and I sat down at one point and we tried to name all of the hats you have to wear. From, you know, spokesperson of a billion dollar organization to breathtaking asshole, to amateur psychologist, to biggest cheerleader, to, you know, and oh, by the way, you also have to be able to like, throw the ball through these windows that nobody else sees, much less can ever take advantage of. And I think we stopped at like 17 different titles, 17 different hats.

• 8:32Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, I got some more to add.

• 8:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think we still forgot some.

• 8:36Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, you're kind of also, uh, yeah, you're part prisoner and part cop.

• 8:41Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And civic treasure, you know what I mean? Philanthropist, all these things.

• 8:47Pablo Torre?

  Savior and scapegoat.

• 8:48Speaker 05

  Matinee idol. I mean, it's all of these things. And I think that like quarterback has gotten so big. And we can go into all the reasons from youth culture up until, you know, retired Hall of Famers. But it's gotten so big in American culture that. The people that succeed at it, I think, have the same personality, I don't want to say flaw, but personality trait that like politicians have.

• 9:16Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 9:16Speaker 05

  That rock stars have, that lead actors have, where there is a hole in your personality that cannot take enough adoration, love, support, and you almost have to build your own ecosystem where that becomes the purpose.

• 9:37Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 9:37Speaker 05

  And, you know, it's, it creates some great quarterbacks and it creates some really unhealthy situations that they have to deal with later in life.

• 9:45Pablo Torre?

  When I first heard you writing this book, a biography of the quarterback, I'm like...

• 9:49Speaker 05

  When I first reached out to you and was like, please buy however many you can.

• 9:53Pablo Torre?

  When I flooded amazon.com with bots on your behalf, I was thinking to myself, this is kind of like writing a book about the concept of the president.

• 10:02Speaker 05

  I actually thought a lot about that because I, you see these moments, or at least you used to see them, where all the presidents would get together and it's like, what do they talk about? They've achieved something and there must be so much that they can relate to about each other, even if the details are different. And I thought about it in the same lens that like, especially for the retired Hall of Famers, and I have some moments in there when they're all around each other and there's this like throttled, nervous, competitive energy between them. But they know something about American life, they know something about each other, and that is a fascinating and lofty place to be in.

• 10:38Pablo Torre?

  And this is a job that you, by the way, report. That's the key of this to me. This book is reported, is a zillion interwoven reporting trips. And what you sort of realize is that no position, no job is more studied than quarterback. It's even more studied than president, given how many millions of people have fun studying quarterback, cosplaying as quarterback. And yet, still, there is no job more misunderstood.

• 11:11Pablo Torre?

  Perhaps even by the people writing newsletters testifying to how much they understand it.

• 11:17Speaker 05

  Totally, and it's misunderstood even by those who do it. I was at this event two weeks ago out in California. It was a panel with Mina Kimes and Andrew Luck and Steve Young was giving the intro and he was talking about coaching his daughter's flag football team. And at some point they turned to him to coach the quarterbacks and like, you need to teach them how to throw. And he stopped and he goes, well, how do you throw? And he lifts his arm and you could see his mind went somewhere else right there. Because he was like, I don't know how you throw. I don't know how to explain it. I don't know how to teach it. And that to me was just fascinating because if there's anybody who kind of can articulate it, it's Steve. Like Dan Marino can't articulate it. He literally knows no way through life other than being able to throw the ball where he wants, when he wants.

• 12:00Pablo Torre?

  I feel like for that reason though, Marino is just sort of like, I'm kind of jealous.

• 12:05Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 12:05Pablo Torre?

  Of the simplicity of just like, man, it was fun.

• 12:09Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And I think that's one of the reasons why people like Elway, Marino, you know, they don't coach because they can't. And here Steve was kind of frozen in front of the entire room with his arm in the air, saying like, I actually don't know how to explain this thing that I know more about than almost anybody on earth.

• 12:25Pablo Torre?

  I feel like that's why you as guy who has.

• 12:29Speaker 05

  As a tour guide.

• 12:30Pablo Torre?

  Well, but a tour guide and also a would be exhibit. Like you, I mean, this is the thing, I was talking to our, our friend, your old friend, your really, really, really close friend, Wright Thompson. And I was like, what should I, what should I ask Seth about? Because, you know, I'm reading the book and the book's, you know, there's a lot here. And he tells me, I talked to Seth at least once a day, every day for the past 20 plus years. And I had never heard the story in there about what happened to you as a young quarterback.

• 13:03Speaker 05

  Look, I was a kid, I grew up in, you know, there's a, there's a pet theory about quarterbacks that like, you know, they're compensating for something, which again, kind of goes back to that politician. That celebrity type of thing where, you know, it's not just enough to be able to throw the ball. And so I had a great, loving family, but they're, you know, my parents struggled to make ends meet. They got divorced. And, you know, around the same time is when I just kind of began to fall in love with this position. We went to go see, I grew up in Alaska. We went to go see the Broncos and the Seahawks. And, you know, I was in the front row during warmups and watching the ball come out of John Elway's hand was unlike anything I'd ever seen in my life. Like, it didn't look like a football.

• 13:47Pablo Torre?

  The film on Elway is still in 2025, very silly to see.

• 13:52Speaker 05

  It's ridiculous, but like, just watching it, I had never seen anything like that. And I was like, you know, I want to do that. I just became obsessed. Like, I went to camps up and down the West Coast. I carried footballs around with me everywhere. It became who I was before I was even a quarterback.

• 14:08Pablo Torre?

  You were the kid who was inhaling the John Elway instructional video.

• 14:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, that was, and there's, there's not a lot to take from it, you know? But I tried. I mean, I rented that video so many times and ones like it.

• 14:21Pablo Torre?

  The fundamentals of offensive football, the winning touch from 1987 is an incredible time capsule to be like, what was Seth's childhood like? And suddenly it's.

• 14:31Speaker 08

  All right, now it's time to throw the football. Where do you throw it? Who do you throw it to? It all depends. Crucial third down. You need this first down desperately. Go to the hook pattern.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Down. Odd. Ready, set, go.

• 14:51Speaker 09

  On the hook route, you know, it's usually 12 to 14 yards deep when we, when we run the hook route. And that's all timed in with the drop. That's why the drops are so important. Because you think, you look at the plays and 80% of all routes and, and passes that quarterbacks makes are timing, timing patterns.

• 15:07Speaker 05

  I later found out Brady rented the same video and was obsessed with the same video. So I think he took a little bit more from it than I did.

• 15:13Pablo Torre?

  I like that you were.

• 15:14Speaker 05

  We bonded, yeah.

• 15:15Pablo Torre?

  You're Eskimo film brothers through the fundamentals of offensive football.

• 15:20Speaker 05

  But, you know, I became a starting quarterback and I had some good games, I had some bad games and, you know, I got a taste of it. Then my drive went in, you know, it just went into overdrive. I was doing everything I could. All I thought about was it. This is like junior, entering my junior year. And I had my eye on this senior that I wanted to beat out. He ended up playing college football. I mean, I had no chance, but again, you have to be in a little bit of a state of delusion and believe. And, you know, I believed it and like I got broken and I got cut from varsity. It was one of the worst, most humiliating moments of my life. I couldn't even process. It was like my little world had just started to separate in ways that like, I didn't know exactly. I had to put it back together and, you know, the coach, I think, saw it.

• 16:05Speaker 05

  And I think, you know, he-

• 16:06Pablo Torre?

  It sounds so like just pathetic, honestly.

• 16:09Speaker 05

  It's so pathetic. That's one of the reasons why I didn't talk about it with Ray. But, you know, the coach sort of said like, hey, why don't we just move you to receiver? And like, take this weight off of you. And, um, I took him up on it and I, it took me years to forgive myself for doing that.

• 16:24Pablo Torre?

  It's like, I wanted to be president, not the secretary of agriculture.

• 16:29Speaker 05

  Right.

• 16:29Pablo Torre?

  This is less cool.

• 16:32Speaker 05

  It's an addictive feeling. Like in my own little way, I, I got to be the quarterback in the hallways for a period. And, you know, so I got a taste of it. And I think that the book isn't about me, thank God. But it's about me wondering what life would have been like. And that's a question that a lot of us might have. Like, what is it like to be a quarterback? To be the quarterback, to be the one who succeeds and fails on this stage? What is it like to live with it afterwards? What's it like to deal with the pain, emotional and physical? And so I picked characters that basically I thought could illuminate those, those bigger themes.

• 17:07Pablo Torre?

  Yeah. And they connect. I mean, that's the crazy thing about this is that the story is told through the connective tissue of events that I was glancingly, if not intimately familiar with, in terms of the history of football and America. But for instance, like the very basic question of like, okay, John Elway. I'm looking at the John Elway film in my mind's eye and I'm like, number seven. Okay. So why did John Elway wear number seven?

• 17:32Speaker 05

  It's interesting because he, he wore number 11 in high school. I think he, when he got to Stanford, I think it was taken and 12, I think felt like too common, if I remember right. But there was this guy, you know, Elway was one of the, the preeminent quarterbacks out of Southern California. You know, him and Warren Moon and, you know, there's a couple others, but Jay Schrader, there's a deep cut. But one of the guys that is a huge figure. Not in the history of the NFL exactly, but in the history of quarterback and what it means and how it evolved into the thing that it is, is this guy named Bob Waterfield. He was the third quarterback interacted in the Hall of Fame. He played in the 1940s for the Rams. He is a big reason why the Cleveland Rams moved to Los Angeles.

• 18:14Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 18:14Speaker 05

  And his wife, Jane Russell, is another big reason. And so he was like the, one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL at the time when football was starting to emerge into the national consciousness and she was the country's biggest pinup star. They were like the first power couple in America.

• 18:31Pablo Torre?

  I had no idea that Bob Waterfield was a guy who existed until I started reading about him in your book and I'm like, wait a minute. Okay, so this guy Bob Waterfield exists, goes to UCLA in the 40s. So the 40s, a lot happened.

• 18:45Speaker 05

  A lot happened.

• 18:46Pablo Torre?

  In American history and the history of Western civilization. And Jane Russell was, quote, "the most photographed woman in the world," end quote.

• 18:59Speaker 10

  Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the loveliest Jane of all? Well, yes, you're quite right. Every cinema goer would vote for Jane Russell. So, welcome to London, Jane. We're very glad to see you.

• 19:13Speaker 11

  Thank you. I'm very happy to be back in London. And some people know me as Mrs. Waterfield, you know?

• 19:18Pablo Torre?

  And they had what seems like the first power couple amalgamated name.

• 19:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, Russfield. I mean, they, they started their own production company. I mean, they were.

• 19:29Pablo Torre?

  Russfield.

• 19:30Speaker 05

  Russfield.

• 19:31Pablo Torre?

  The benefir of World War II.

• 19:34Speaker 05

  And he, he was a really good looking guy. I mean, he looked like.

• 19:37Pablo Torre?

  Apparently.

• 19:38Speaker 05

  He looked like James Dean before James Dean.

• 19:40Pablo Torre?

  It is dark wavy hair.

• 19:42Speaker 05

  Right. And he told the world that quarterback can get you the girl and you can have this life. And they had these legendary parties at their house that overlooked the valley. It was just over the hills. And I mean, all of the luminaries from that era, the people who changed America with black and white pictures and with stories, I mean, they all came there. And it was like.

• 20:04Pablo Torre?

  The golden age of Hollywood. I mean, literally was the time.

• 20:07Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And then you had the football crew come through. And he was drafted by the Rams and at the time they were the Cleveland Rams. He goes and plays his rookie season there. He wins MVP, Rookie of the Year, and they win the NFL Championship. And after the season, the owner of the Rams, this guy, Dan Reeves, moves the team to LA. And part of the reason was because he saw their star power. It was a huge, I'm gonna go on a tangent here for a second, but it was a huge moment in the idea of the quarterback and football as we know it, because number one, the Rams go to LA. They become a star-powered team in franchise.

• 20:47Pablo Torre?

  They're also the first pro sports team west of the Mississippi.

• 20:50Speaker 05

  West of the, they paved the way for the Dodgers. And they're also the, they were, I think, the only sports team to move after they won a championship. They moved three weeks later.

• 21:00Pablo Torre?

  It's an incredible heat check from the Rams to be like, you know what? This Hollywood thing, we're gonna wanna get closer to that.

• 21:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, and so her star takes off, his star takes off. They're followed by, you know, some of the earliest iterations of paparazzi that, by the way, asked permission to take the photo because he had a temper. This huge melding of Hollywood and football, like Pete Rozell was, worked for the Rams at the time. And he later said that the highlight of his young life was being invited to their house, to one of their parties.

• 21:26Pablo Torre?

  Well, the parties, I mean, the people who showed up.

• 21:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 21:30Pablo Torre?

  Like, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's like, oh, for Exonatra.

• 21:33Speaker 05

  With all due respect to like Tim Tebow and Caleb Williams and all of these college quarterbacks who ran in pretty elite circles, Waterfield, even at UCLA, ran in more elite circles than they did. It was insane. So he goes out there and the Rams become this idea and they become this vision as a couple. And then back in Cleveland, they have a void to fill. And what comes next but the Paul Brown Browns? And Paul Brown, of course, bases his entire methodology on taking control from the field of play, from the players and transferring it to the coaches.

• 22:06Pablo Torre?

  To the point where the name of the team is not coincidentally his last name.

• 22:11Speaker 05

  Exactly, but Bob Waterfield wore number seven. To bring it full circle, but that's, you know, that was one of, and Elway later saw Waterfield's kid at a charity event and he was like, you know, your dad paved the way for everybody and he was part of the reason why I wore number seven.

• 22:26Pablo Torre?

  But, but that image of both this glowing number seven, but also the masculinity embedded in it.

• 22:34Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:34Pablo Torre?

  Part of what I laughed at was, okay, so Bob Waterfield Rams go to LA. They leave that void in Cleveland and guess who is blamed?

• 22:46Pablo Torre?

  In Cleveland.

• 22:47Speaker 05

  Oh, Jane Russell, of course. Blame the woman.

• 22:50Pablo Torre?

  Blame, yes, blame, blame Delilah for a team, a sport that's like, we gotta get the wattage, the refracted glow of the most famous woman in the world to help our business. And I'm like, then simultaneously, listening to Taylor Swift on Travis Kelsey's podcast.

• 23:12Speaker 05

  Travis Kelsey, high school quarterback. In case, in case anyone was wondering.

• 23:16Pablo Torre?

  Of, in court.

• 23:17Speaker 05

  If case anyone was wondering how, you know, why, it kind of makes sense now, doesn't it?

• 23:30Pablo Torre?

  Summer is in full swing in Surfside. It's my go-to. They've got a full range of canned iced teas and lemonades with premium vodka. Personally, right now, I'm enjoying the peach flavor, but honestly, they're all great. 100 calories, only two grams of sugar. And my favorite part is that there are no bubbles. Because it's not a seltzer, it's Surfside. So find a can with Sunset Stripes wherever you get your drinks. Must be 21 plus. And please, please, drink responsibly. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. With Apple Card, you earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases, like groceries, or merch, or tickets to the game. Plus, it can be used anywhere MasterCard is accepted. No matter your team, no matter where you shop,

• 24:14Pablo Torre?

  Apple Card is here to help you tackle game day. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  A perfect crime film, says The Daily Beast. John Turturro gives a career-best performance. Sony Pictures Classics proudly presents the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Turturro stars as an aging master pickpocket, whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. Also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls "instantly classic." Opens October 23 in New York and Los Angeles. Nationwide, October 30.

• 25:08Speaker 12

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 25:22Speaker 13

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 25:33Speaker 12

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 25:38Speaker 14

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 25:44Speaker 12

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 26:11Pablo Torre?

  The book doubles, as is clear now, as a social history of a position. I tried. And again, you think about the cafeteria, you think about prom, you think about Congress, all of these places in which ego gets measured, power is apportioned, and people reveal themselves to be savage, even though they're wearing the costume of sophistication. And the family that sits over all of this in modern football, now for decades upon decades, 67 years, is weirdly successful at managing the ecosystem. Mm-hmm. How do you begin to explain the future of football, which is Arch Manning?

• 26:55Speaker 15

  And Arch Manning fires, and he's got it complete. Chantek Cook on the move, dragged down near the 10.

• 27:04Speaker 15

  And Arch Manning has entered the chat.

• 27:07Pablo Torre?

  Through the lens of the guys who came before him.

• 27:10Speaker 05

  I mean, there's so many ways to think about this. On a most basic level, why is it that this is the hardest thing to do in American sports, if not global sports, and yet this one family has it figured out? Does that mean that it's actually harder than we think or not as hard?

• 27:24Pablo Torre?

  Is this nature or actually nurture?

• 27:26Speaker 05

  Yes, and it's like one of those fascinating things. And you can make a real case that Arch Manning wasn't born on his actual birthday in 2005. He was born in 1969 when Archie Manning was a junior and they played the first nationally televised night game in college football history and they lost to Alabama. But he put on a show that started, you know, not only a cultural phenomenon, but maybe a kind of a revolution.

• 28:09Speaker 05

  And I kept wondering like what it was about these guys that lead them to walk into this, walk into a huddle, thinking they can do it. And so I tried to kind of use Arch Manning as a lens to analyze the entire Manning family and all of the blessings and curses of that. But like, there was a game that Arch had. He was entering ninth grade and it was a spring game and he went down the field and he's in the shotgun and he looks to his right and he sees this receiver who's supposed to run a slant and the cornerback is on him really, really tight. And so it's like everything that the family had helped build.

• 28:57Speaker 05

  For the quarterback position and football and that he learned both overtly at times and through osmosis came together in this little moment for a 13 or 14 year old and he does a signal à la Uncle Peyton signaling the receiver to switch from a slant to a go and he throws a touchdown pass and up in the stands, his dad Cooper Manning was with his friend, Richard Montgomery, and they just looked at each other like, oh, it's on, it's starting. And like, it's insane to think about the amount of pressure that Arch Manning has chosen to put on himself in this space because nothing he ever does is viewed within

• 29:42Speaker 05

  the lens of anything normal or realistic. It's like any career that doesn't end with him being a Heisman finalist, being the first pick in the draft and having a great NFL career. But that's kind of where we're at. And he embraced that.

• 29:55Pablo Torre?

  Well, the comedy of that is that like, of course, he is the son of Cooper. He's the son of the Manning who did, much to the shame of Seth Rikischam's own experience, have to play receiver.

• 30:10Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 30:11Pablo Torre?

  Why? Why do you think that worked out that way?

• 30:13Speaker 05

  It's so interesting. I mean, he was a terrific athlete and that's just the place that he gravitated towards. And, you know, Peyton, in a lot of ways, is like the least natural athlete out of that family. Archie was a terrific scrambler. Cooper became a division one receiver before he had to quit football. And Eli was a really good athlete. Peyton, in some ways, had to put quarterback, you know, take it away from the legs and put it almost all in the mind to succeed. And so-

• 30:42Pablo Torre?

  Him at the line of scrimmage was truly like-

• 30:45Speaker 03

  Louisville Soul Train. Louisville Soul Train. They're purple, purple, Buddha Raiders.

• 30:52Speaker 16

  It's not about trickery.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  Purple Buddha Raiders!

• 30:56Speaker 16

  But it does take constant communication because when you do change a pass play to a run-

• 31:02Speaker 03

  Finish six is Mike!

• 31:03Speaker 16

  A run play to a pass play. It's not easy. It's just, hey, let's throw it. It's, I say something and then you tell the offensive line. They have an entirely different language that really nobody else understands.

• 31:16Pablo Torre?

  Was he the one who mastered that more than anybody, would you say?

• 31:21Speaker 05

  I mean-

• 31:23Speaker 05

  I forget the writer who said this, but people had hips before Elvis too, right? Like, I think it was Jim Murray who said that, but Peyton, like, he changed football forever with things that he did. And, you know, here comes Arch, his nephew. And even though Peyton has an internal governing system that tells him, you know, hey, check yourself here, you know, because he knows what this world, this world that his nephew might be getting into. It's like even he couldn't help it. And like, you know, Arch flew to Denver at one point, and they went through a series of drills, not only the drills that Peyton had learned that worked over the years, but they had secret footage of Tom Brady's practices from Clyde Christensen, who was a coach at the Bucks and a friend of the Mannings. He coached Peyton

• 32:06Speaker 05

  too. And so it was like Arch was becoming the receptacle of these two incredibly high level and astute philosophies on quarterbacking. And he was a kid.

• 32:19Pablo Torre?

  This is like one of those Jurassic Park sequels where you're like, you made a new dinosaur out of two different dinosaurs?

• 32:24Speaker 05

  Exactly. And yet, it worked. And then Arch returns to Newman, which is like a very small school outside of New Orleans. Michael Lewis went there. It's known for creating, you know, some of the, the most famous like hedge fund people that exist, and the Mannings.

• 32:42Pablo Torre?

  So the whole like inheritance that is carried down, not merely from Archie Manning, but from before Archie Manning, all the way to Bob Waterfield, when it's that lineage. And there's a choice. How do we handle this young prospect with the most expectation that any quarterback, you could argue, has ever had? What do they do, given all of the resources now available to them over, yeah, three generations, four generations now of Mannings?

• 33:12Speaker 05

  I thought they did two really fascinating things. Like, number one, no social media. So Arch was not on social media. And the second thing they did was Cooper met with the head coach of Newman at the time, this guy Nelson Stewart. He was a guard for Peyton Manning's team. Really good guy. He now coaches at this high school in Atlanta. And Cooper says, I want this to be a 1975 recruitment. And Nelson's like, wait, what? And he goes, I want you to run point. I want you to be the bodyguard, the lead blocker, the filter, the organizer, everything. And we're not taking any offers. And he was like, wait a second, what? You know, we're, we're not doing offers?

• 33:57Speaker 05

  And he goes, no, I mean, we'll make a choice. They didn't want Arch to have to be on social media like every other quarterback, you know, talking about how thrilled and humbled they were to receive a scholarship offer from Ole Miss as a 13 year old, whatever it might be.

• 34:11Pablo Torre?

  Part of, again, just the farce of how do you recruit this unrecrutable player? Is that it didn't stop people from trying?

• 34:21Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And they tried, you know, the coaches tried. I mean, Lane Kiffin, Steve Sarkisian, all these guys. It got Nick Saban even, you know, it got so competitive and so ruthlessly intense between them as they were trying to get Arch. They did all kinds of things, like the coaches would show up at Isador Newman, even though they couldn't talk to him. And Nelson Stewart ended up just like hanging out with these guys because they had nowhere to go and Nelson teaches at Newman, but he also, like all the teachers rotate around the campus and it's K through, through 12. Nelson Stewart would go, would be on preschool duty where he have to push kids on the swings and stuff and the coaches with, you know, their lips pregnant with dip would go push

• 35:04Speaker 05

  kids on the swings too, just trying to like pass time until football practice came along. There was a moment when-

• 35:09Pablo Torre?

  There's a metaphor there that I, speaks for itself already, but-

• 35:12Speaker 05

  There was, there was, you know, a moment when Nick Saban came and all of the Nick Saban assistants call him daddy, which is, maybe we don't need to go there this episode. You know, Nick Saban wanted Arch and maybe if he had gotten him, he'd still be coaching, but he didn't want to appear to want Arch. Like he kind of like wanted his presence to be enough. And, you know, meanwhile, Pete Golding, who's like one of his assistant coaches is the one tasked with landing Arch. And it's getting down to the wire where Arch has got to make a decision and they're doing a Zoom. And nobody, not even the family members, knew where Arch wanted to go or what his preferences were. Like, some of the family thought that Georgia was a good fit because he'd be coached

• 35:53Speaker 05

  hard. You know, other people thought that Alabama would be good because he could be coached by daddy. Like, who better to prepare you for the NFL? Texas was kept lingering. And, you know, everyone wonders, like, what is a modern recruitment like for a guy like him? And it got so tight that Pete Golding was on a call with Arch Cooper and Nelson Stewart, a Zoom. And, you know, people know that Steve Sarkisian, the coach of University of Texas, has battled alcoholism. It's public record. It almost cost him his career, but

• 36:27Pablo Torre?

  Famously.

• 36:27Speaker 05

  He managed to find a way through it and he's, he's built a terrific career. And stuff like that ends up being fair game.

• 36:35Pablo Torre?

  Oh, and the negative recruiting of all of this.

• 36:37Speaker 05

  Exactly. And so Pete, who's friends with Sark, says on this call, he says, I love Sark. He's my best friend. And then he's like, oh, my God, do I go there? And he did. He goes, you know, I hope he can stay sober. And then after the call, like, Nelson Stewart called him and he was like, Pete, that is [__] up. And Golding knew, you know, Golding knew it was [__] up, but like, he had no choice because, you know, he said, he goes, daddy's on me. And yet, I think Arch was able to go through life with a semblance of a normal high school experience and not lose his love of the game because the Mannings were able to put this cocoon around him. It's a really fascinating, like, kind of tension and push and pull because

• 37:20Speaker 05

  in one sense, there was an entire existence of Arch Manning that he didn't need to do anything for it to exist. Like, he almost became iconic as a child, as he's trying to learn his way through the world. And yet, there's this other existence that's very small where he sits next to the freshmen before games so we can get to know them and he goes to class and he says hi to coaches, but he doesn't have to, you know, do anything more. He just simply has to like be. So I think it worked. I mean, we'll see, you know, I don't, there's no predictive value in it in terms of him as a player, but that's a whole other question. But in terms of raising a quasi-balanced

• 38:03Speaker 05

  human being in a really unbalanced space, I think that they did a pretty good job of it.

• 38:07Pablo Torre?

  What do you see when you see him now at Texas? When you're like sort of paying attention from afar and again, he's backing up Quinn Ewers, which is, did that feel?

• 38:16Speaker 05

  I thought, I thought that was one of the most insightful experiences. If you're looking at like why Arch might make it and live up to this and the fact that he didn't leave, like going back to Tom Brady, I mean, he loves writing about his mission experience and like everyone's like, oh, poor Tom Brady started as a seventh stringer. And then by the time he got the starting job, he had to fight for it again and he kept getting pulled. And Brady kind of flips it in a way that even like his family members can't. And he's like, thank God that happened to me because I came into the NFL ready to rock and I had unbreakable self-confidence and I knew I could do this because of what I had gone through. And so

• 38:58Speaker 05

  many of these guys don't have that. You know, in the book, like Sean Payton is talking about scouting Caleb Williams and one of the things that he worries him is like, you know, this guy's never been broken. You know, it's an existential worry. And with Arch, in the era of the portal, think about the number of coaches texting saying like, he'll get on the field next Saturday for us. The fact that he stuck it out at Texas.

• 39:22Pablo Torre?

  At a time at which there has never been more power for a prospect into man to make a choice that makes them even, in the mind of the coaches at least, more powerful than them.

• 39:33Speaker 05

  Absolutely. And he picked Texas for a couple of reasons. Like number one, I think he liked that Sarkisian was the head coach and play caller. So he knew that the offensive coordinator wasn't going to leave. Number two, he liked that Austin was a huge town and that he could probably blend in better than like Oxford, Mississippi, for instance. And the third reason is he wanted to be part of a team that was going to take the next step. And I think he never lost focus of that. And I think that that's, that to me is really, really interesting because. Again, you know, Quinn Ewers is the Tom Brady in that situation and Arch Manning is the Tom Brady in that situation. Like, nobody would have blamed him if he had left Texas.

• 40:10Pablo Torre?

  It's like, either this is disastrous, or you're one of the greatest of all time.

• 40:14Speaker 05

  It's just so unfair. And yet, he knew it. You know, he knew it from the moment he decided to do this, that he was entering into something different.

• 40:21Pablo Torre?

  And I should clarify that, like, my emotional reaction to that binary is not, "Man, I really feel sorry for Arch Manning," although I think that in the movie of his life, it's okay for the audience to have that sort of, like, compulsion. My emotional reaction is, this is extreme in a way that tests something that is insanely difficult to scout, which is, as you say, who really gets off when that spotlight becomes viscerally uncomfortable? Like, who... Again, Bob Waterfield, in the golden age of Hollywood,

• 41:03Pablo Torre?

  proved that that was a very important quality.

• 41:07Speaker 05

  If not requirement.

• 41:08Pablo Torre?

  And now, when it comes to like, "So why are the Mannings good at this?" What I'm led now in this conversation to wonder about is, maybe it's because there is some kind of preparation, there is some kind of perspective on what it's like to really enjoy that and not be afraid of it.

• 41:27Speaker 05

  And not let it burn you out or get the best of you. The Mannings are not perfect people, but in the decades of intense scrutiny that, you know, is very singular to them, to say nothing of the intense scrutiny of being a quarterback and just getting the job done. I mean, they've done a phenomenally good job of managing it. It doesn't mean that it's easy. I mean, Eli Manning saw a therapist with the Giants, and when he started to see the therapist, the main thing from an organizational standpoint is they didn't want it to get out. You know, they didn't want the world to know that their quarterback was seeing a therapist.

• 42:09Pablo Torre?

  That Eli Manning's internal monologue got sad sometimes.

• 42:12Speaker 05

  Exactly. Whereas like Tom Brady, him seeing a therapist at Michigan is an essential part of his story that he loves talking about. And, you know, they didn't, they were worried about what would happen in like the New York press and the media market if that got out. But like, you know, they figured out a way to do it. And I think that that's fascinating. And when, when Arch asks his uncles for help,

• 42:37Speaker 05

  he tends to ask Peyton the football questions and then Peyton leaves him like a seven minute voice message. Peyton loves the voice message or the voice memo. And then he realizes he forgot a couple of details. So he leaves a couple more.

• 42:48Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:49Speaker 05

  And then when he calls Eli, it tends to be about how do you handle fame? How do you handle scrutiny? And, you know, Eli gives him some advice. I mean, one of the things is, is never be photographed drinking, like with alcohol. Because if you blink when the picture is getting taken, that will live forever on the internet. And it'll be like, you know, Eli Manning was smashed.

• 43:09Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, Eli Manning has one lesson. Uh, don't be an Eli Manning meme.

• 43:14Speaker 05

  Exactly. I know. But like, you know, Eli is really good at thinking about how to not make things easy for the outside forces that feed on you. And I, you know, so in a weird way, it's like you see Arch handling this stuff and you're like, okay, I get it now. I get why he's doing all right right now.

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• 45:19Pablo Torre?

  It reminds me too, though, that like something that the social media, the era in which there has never been more coaching of quarterbacks, there's never been more granular training, there's never been more audience building at an earlier age, it does remind me that like broadly speaking, we are raising this generation of kids to have the particular kink of attention.

• 45:40Speaker 05

  Oh my gosh.

• 45:41Pablo Torre?

  On paper, everybody wants it. But what I'm realizing is that like, the question is not, do you want the attention? The question is, when you get the attention, are you good enough to survive the attention?

• 45:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I mean, that's the question now. And, you know, there's a way to, like, John Elway was a fascinating character for me because he was number, first guy to ever be number one out of high school, first pick in the draft, first ballot Hall of Famer. He survived that. So that does something to you. You have to hardwire yourself to do it and then you have to deal with what it meant to be John Elway on the other end. But now it's like, there's a way to be a quarterback. There are these camps. You have to have arm care, a throwing specialist, media training, PT. There's all of these things that you need to do now. And there's all of these circuits from seven on seven tournaments to quarterback showcases.

• 46:39Speaker 05

  And when I was at Elite 11, which joins the Manning Passing Academy as the two preeminent ones, you know, this guy was telling me, he's like, we're just raising little [BLEEP] holes here. We're breeding little [BLEEP]. And you see it and you're like, oh, my God, he's right.

• 46:53Pablo Torre?

  Yes, imagine a world in which the dream, and it's seemingly never been more resonant or popular. The dream is to be the biggest star in the most popular, last remaining, as we say all the time, last remaining monoculture left in American life. What's it like to want to say at a very young age, I want to run for that office?

• 47:16Speaker 05

  Yeah. And on the flip side of that, of course, is the quarterback dad. Who often sees his role as being the one who's not only the, you know, strategist for this quarterback, but also like their biggest critic.

• 47:30Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 47:30Speaker 05

  Like, you know, the drive home has to be hard because that will prepare him for what's coming. And so that dynamic gets really tricky and interesting. And just imagine what it's like for a teenager. When I was at Elite 11, it had just ended, like the, it was like three days. And there was this kid, I was, I was following around in the book named Colin Hurley. And Hurley ended up going to LSU at age 16. He was just hell bent on being the youngest to do everything. And as you know, there's a lot of benefit for being that precocious. And there's also a lot of worry because no matter what, there's a part of growing up you cannot accelerate.

• 48:09Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 48:10Speaker 05

  And he enters LSU at age 16. He's a terrific player, ends up getting up to second string. At that point, he was 17 years old. And when we were leaving Elite 11, though, he was walking off with his dad and me. And then we we looked over our shoulders and one of the quarterbacks, I won't say who, I thought about naming him, but I I don't want to embarrass him.

• 48:32Pablo Torre?

  Because he's how old?

• 48:33Speaker 05

  Well, he was a teenager at the time. But like, his dad was just ripping into him for his performance at Elite 11 in front of everybody. They weren't even off the field. They were still on the field in Southern California. And he's, his dad is literally saying, what the were you doing out there? And Colin kind of waited. Then the dad stalked off. Colin kind of waited.

• 48:53Speaker 05

  And Colin, who has a loving but intense dad also, walked over to the kid and just gave him a hug because it was like, in that moment, even though Colin Hurley couldn't even drive a car, he kind of knew something about what that kid was going through. And he knew that even though they're competitors, they're kind of blood brothers in a way that they're going through this really strange circuit and ringer together. And they needed to be there for one another. And so then you have Colin, who of course goes off to LSU at such a young age,

• 49:24Speaker 05

  performs really well.

• 49:27Speaker 05

  I had written a draft of the book. And in January, I was out to eat. I was diving into a burrito. And a friend of mine texts me and he goes, hey, is Colin Hurley still one of the main characters in your book? And I I thought the last scene with Colin Hurley in the book was going to be his parents dropping him off at the dorm room at age 16.

• 49:45Speaker 05

  And I was like, yeah. And he sends me a tweet and it's like LSU freshman quarterback in critical condition after a car accident. And I was like, what? And he had driven his car, a car his dad didn't even want him to have. But again, you have NIL money, you have freedom, you have all of these things. He drove it into a tree at about 3 a.m. I flew down to Baton Rouge that night, spent a couple of days with him in the ICU and then watched him kind of like try to put his life back together. But that's part of this life. There's a direct line between what happened there. And The life that he had lived before that and the situation that he found himself in. And like I said, there's a lot of benefit to the exposure that a lot of these young quarterbacks

• 50:28Speaker 05

  get, Instagram quarterbacks, but it is a dangerous, dangerous path. And, you know, for better or for worse, the dad ends up being the guy who kind of tries to steer them through that. And that's a tricky, tricky thing.

• 50:41Pablo Torre?

  I'm imagining like the reality of like, here is this camp full of little a**holes. And as the saying goes, behind every little a**hole is a big a**hole.

• 50:53Speaker 05

  Well, I think that like Andrew Luck has talked a lot about this. Our friend Alex Smith has talked a lot about this. Is it like, you know, when you talk to Alex Smith about his first years in the NFL and what he lacked, he doesn't say, I lacked schematic innovators, my offensive coordinator. I lacked playmakers on the perimeter. He says, I didn't have a good sense of self. And I think that's a fascinating thing to say.

• 51:17Pablo Torre?

  Oh, Alex's whole legend to me, beyond the recovery from physical destruction and even recovery from psychological destruction, is that he is truly emotionally intelligent. He is. He's, and again, the ultimate compliment you can pay a person in a world of extremity, in a profession incentivizing extremity, is he's pretty normal.

• 51:45Speaker 05

  He is. And Andrew Luck, you know, saw who he needed to be as a quarterback and didn't like that guy. I mean, and, and so I think that like to be a quarterback in the NFL, and now it drips down as we talk about little a**holes. And there's a lot of a**holes around them too, by the way.

• 52:03Pablo Torre?

  I've noticed.

• 52:04Speaker 05

  But you cannot walk on the field with doubt. And so you have to do something to get your mind into a place where you're not feeling worried when you're entering, when you're walking out on the field. And like, that means you have to be at the center of this ecosystem that you create, where you're intentionally isolated and detached and set apart. It means that you have to be incredibly selfish.

• 52:34Speaker 05

  Not only to your family members, but you know, oftentimes to people depending on you. Like you can't, you have to almost become like a little bit of a sociopath. Like Joe Burrow talked me through what it takes for him to get to a mental place where he can be on the field without doubt. And I realized as he talked about it, and it's really kind of excruciating.

• 52:57Pablo Torre?

  What did he describe?

• 52:58Speaker 05

  He transports himself to a place where he's not only feeling no doubt, it's like he doesn't feel anything. And quarterback is also a job where there's a tremendous amount of guilt. You're expected to amass the responsibilities and know everything that's going on. And Burrow, I think one of the most fascinating things about him is that he does the opposite. Where if he throws an interception because the receiver wasn't where he was supposed to be when he was supposed to be there. He feels no guilt. And that's really fascinating because it's one of those things that's easy to say, but it's really hard to live. And I think that there's so much pressure that comes with this position.

• 53:43Speaker 05

  And so many factors that go into it, that for him to survive. He needs to think so ruthlessly about only his thing. That he cannot worry about anybody else and he actually lives that out. Like coaches for the longest time never talked to Burrow on the sideline because it was pointless.

• 54:00Pablo Torre?

  Oh, it has that he, the whole thing, the legend of him has been like, he has the vibe of somebody who's throwing a no hitter.

• 54:07Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 54:08Pablo Torre?

  Insofar as do not talk to him while he's throwing the ball.

• 54:26Pablo Torre?

  And now what I'm realizing, and this is where I wanted to go actually. Towards the end here is this notion of here you have a position that is the most famous embodiment of the great man theory. Of America.

• 54:41Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 54:41Pablo Torre?

  And that job, perhaps perfect to that idea, is of course entirely dependent on the people around them.

• 54:52Pablo Torre?

  To complete a zillion different transactions, to take the responsibility that they throw to them and to catch it and to get their feet in bounds or to block for them so they can make that throw. And so you have this just like mind again of I need to have less empathy for the people around me to protect my ability to be great, which relies on their ability to make me look as great as I've dreamed since I was seven years old.

• 55:23Speaker 05

  And, you know, let's go back to Brady for a second because here you have someone who fell asleep before his first Super Bowl, took a nap in the locker room because he was so innocent that like the consequences of a loss didn't bother him. And then you have him later in life in his 40s.

• 55:46Speaker 05

  Unquestionably the most accomplished quarterback ever, maybe the greatest football player ever, found the people around him who would support his crazy dreams to play to a high level until his mid 40s, like Alex Guerrero.

• 55:59Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 55:59Speaker 05

  People who said yes when everybody else was saying no, surrounded himself with those people. And yet, the night before he played in his final Super Bowl for the Patriots when they played the Rams, I mean, he was sleepless. He had to write himself affirmations in his playbook to remind himself, you're Tom Brady. You know, water their seeds of doubt. You live for these moments. Like, think about that. Like, that to me, I know I'm going back to this a lot, but it's like, that's why the pressure and the external components of it all are such huge, huge forces in who can make it and who cannot in this. Because even the great Tom Brady

• 56:42Speaker 05

  had to figure out a way so that when he entered the football field on Super Bowl Sunday, having authored some of the greatest comebacks in NFL history against the Los Angeles Rams. You know, I think everyone knew the Patriots are going to win that game.

• 56:55Pablo Torre?

  But against the, the team birthed by Russ Field.

• 57:00Speaker 05

  Exactly. He had to figure out a way so that when he walked on that field, he felt absolutely bulletproof. And, you know, that mental exercise and the ruthlessness that it takes to do it is, is so fascinating and so essential and.

• 57:17Speaker 05

  You know, you don't just walk away from that.

• 57:19Pablo Torre?

  It reminds me, to answer the question maybe we started this whole thing with, the reason why he thinks you can be both the greatest dad in the world and the greatest quarterback is because the thing that all of these mother f**kers really need in the end to function, even vaguely normally, is delusion.

• 57:38Speaker 05

  And the ability to believe that something like that's attainable. And with so many of my main characters, I tried to introduce them at the moment that they were feeling the most doubt and how they dealt with it at that moment. You know, and most of the time, they're sophomores in high school, which coincidentally is, you know, a lot of the time that I felt a lot of doubt. It's that primal age where like, if John Elway didn't pull off this comeback, his first one at Grenada Hills High, does anything happen after that? You know, those moments are so precious because it gives them a chance to have a narrative that they can tell themselves for the rest of their career. But at some point, you have to separate from it. And Steve Young, this is like this beautiful moment.

• 58:22Speaker 05

  Steve was told to run away from, from his career. And he kind of did, you know, he, he was a broadcaster on ESPN, but he, he went into a different field and he did very, very well at it. And he, he went back to BYU, um, two years ago for an alumni weekend. And someone stopped him, they're like, hey, you know, there's an alumni football game tonight. You're going to play, right? Steve's like, no, I am not. Like, that's the quickest way to like, humiliate myself.

• 58:51Speaker 05

  But he also, he reconsidered it because it was like, look, it's a football field. There's people in the stands. It's a Friday night, there are lights on. All of this stuff is so precious. And he was like, well, screw it, I'm going to give it a shot. And so he goes out there, he's in his early 60s. He's playing with guys who are half of his age and in some cases, less than half of his age. Throws an interception early because of course, but then gets the ball late and they go down the field. And he calls this play, that's one of the plays that he ran for his daughter's flag football team called Shake, based on the Taylor Swift song.

• 59:25Pablo Torre?

  And it all goes back to Taylor Swift.

• 59:27Speaker 05

  And he drops back and there's this receiver crossing from the right to the left and he throws the guy, what's a beautiful pass with inches to spare into a window that nobody else saw. And everybody lifts him up on their shoulders. It was like he won the Super Bowl all over again. I mean, he was like, he was given a moment to be the center of that and to do that particular thing. That's just so rare and that doesn't come in any other way. That night, he's in bed on his phone and someone sends him a clip of the play, like somebody had videotaped him from behind. And he sees himself dropping back, looking at the defense, looks at his feet, looks at his release.

• 1:00:09Speaker 05

  And everything, he said to me, he was like, it was a reminder of what's in me. And even if it was buried, it was still in him and he watched it like 15 times. And I was like, Steve, we are all Uncle Ricos.

• 1:00:23Pablo Torre?

  That is the most relatable part of this entire book is that even Steve Young, he just needs to be reminded.

• 1:00:35Speaker 05

  That's why, that's why this thing is like mythical and magical and mystical and ridiculous.

• 1:00:40Pablo Torre?

  And ridic- and truly, truly ridiculous. Seth Wickersham, although you never became the asshole that you dreamed of being, I am glad that you managed to surround yourself with them in, yeah, a really good book.

• 1:00:55Speaker 05

  I managed to fool you. Thank you so much, man. Great to see you.

• 1:01:09Pablo Torre?

  Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Abaroma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tumanello. Our studio engineering by RG Systems, sound design by NGW Post, theme song as always by John Bravo, and we will talk to you next time.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

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