"America's Biggest Failure": Share & Election & Tell with Wyatt Cenac and Tim Miller

After lint-rolling through post-election coverage, Pablo tries to makes peace with Trump 2.0, with a little help from the future president of Grenada and the host of The Bulwark Podcast https://www.thebulwark.com/s/bulwarkpodcast: Have Joe Rogan and the manosphere become the new fourth estate? How did a Suicide Squad of psychopaths become Washington's starting lineup? And how much is Elon Musk’s science fiction really fictional anymore? Plus: Grumpcoin, Hungry Hungry Hippos, Stephen A. Smith 2028, and Canon Curry 2052. Further reading: About That Press Conference (Tim Miller) https://podcast.thebulwark.com/tim-miller-about-that-press-conference Elon Musk: The Evening Rocket (Jill Lepore) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnNTXBPQiHiSfJ76a_Kq2XlYkYE3oFVOU Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Pablo Torre?

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• 0:42Pablo Torre?

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• 1:27Pablo Torre?

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• 2:10Pablo Torre?

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• 2:56Pablo Torre?

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today, we're going to find out what this sound is.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  I'm going to change my name to Gronald Grump and run.

• 3:07Pablo Torre?

  Right after this ad.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  I'm in hell. I think I'm in a personal hell, and I have no exit from Donald Trump. And at this point, I think Donald Trump will outlive me. And I think that I'm cursed to never be able to think about anything else again in my entire life. He just lives in my brain.

• 3:39Pablo Torre?

  It does feel like, obviously, while Donald Trump is the clear main character in America.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:45Pablo Torre?

  It also kind of does feel like, maybe to each of us, maybe to every American, we are also the main character. Like, what did we do to bring this upon ourselves?

• 3:59Speaker 02

  I don't know if that's true about every listener, but that is true about me, and I'm convinced I'm the main character and that the rest of you are living in my personal hell.

• 4:06Pablo Torre?

  What did you do, Tim?

• 4:07Speaker 02

  And I apologize.

• 4:07Pablo Torre?

  What did you do?

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is your fault.

• 4:09Pablo Torre?

  Was it working for John McCain, Jeb Bush, the RNC?

• 4:12Speaker 02

  When I was working with the RNC, I did work. Yeah, a couple of the candidates that I worked for that you haven't name-checked were much worse than Jeb Bush and John McCain. So maybe it's that, maybe it's something from childhood, you know? I don't know. I was not very nice to my teachers in middle school. Maybe this is. Is like, uh, maybe one of them cast a spell upon me.

• 4:31Pablo Torre?

  You got a Nuggets championship. You're running your dent to Nuggets.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  I did get a Nuggets championship.

• 4:36Pablo Torre?

  But the Faustian bargain was.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  At what cost? Did you get that championship? It could be that Nug life. The problem, I guess the only problem with that theory is that I got it after the first Trump. So I feel like whatever happened that brought this curse upon y'all. Doesn't, the monkey's paw doesn't, there's no, there's no. Linear time. Yeah, they don't, monkey's paw doesn't see time the way that we do. Okay. Yeah, it could be a thing where it just, you get it later and it's like, hey, why are you so upset? You got the thing you wanted. Yeah. The world around you is on fire, but you got your thing. I gotta say, I would have traded it. I would have gladly given the Heat that championship in exchange for my current health.

• 5:17Pablo Torre?

  The city of Miami, it turns out, demographically and electorally, did win a tremendous championship.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Themselves, yeah.

• 5:23Pablo Torre?

  In the incredibly red Miami Dade County.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Mago Miami.

• 5:48Pablo Torre?

  So I need to be very clear that this episode is not going to be a comprehensive postmortem about why Donald Trump just got elected president again. This is not going to be an episode about inflation and the economy, for instance. Even though that might be the biggest suspect, actually, in the ongoing murder mystery now enveloping the Democratic Party. It is likewise not going to be an episode about anti-incumbent bias, or COVID, or abortion, or women, or war, and the Middle East, or even race. It is an episode, instead, about this idea of influence. And what it really means to be mainstream in the year 2024.

• 6:30Pablo Torre?

  And so what I wanted to do was invite our old friend Wyatt Sinak, formerly of The Daily Show and HBO, and also a new guest, Tim Miller, host of the Bulwark Podcast, and a former leader in the Never Trump Republican movement, which he subsequently left. And also which, politically, um, may not functionally exist anymore, at least as of Tuesday night.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  The Jeb Bush John McCain party is officially dead for sure. The RNC is sadly thriving today, so I wish we could say it was dead. But I think that many of us had hoped that Donald Trump was killing the Republican Party, but he might have killed the Democratic Party instead. So, anyway, uh, sorry.

• 7:11Pablo Torre?

  My brain has felt a little bit like a lint roller, just sort of like collecting bits of garbage and insight, mostly garbage pieces of content, as I've quietly gotten drunk on the internet's reaction to, uh, what are we calling it?

• 7:29Speaker 02

  What are we calling this election?

• 7:31Pablo Torre?

  This point in time.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 7:33Pablo Torre?

  Um, what we're doing here today.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that we're, I mean, we're probably at the end of the American Republic. Is that maybe too serious? That's certainly of, uh, the American Republic as America as a global world leader. Um, so I think that's, that's an interesting time to be with you here in New York City, the world's capital.

• 7:51Pablo Torre?

  Right, right, right. And Wyatt, Wyatt Sinak, uh, you recorded a comedy special the Monday after the 2016 election that's referenced.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  I did, yeah.

• 8:00Pablo Torre?

  And so how are you, what creativity is coursing through you right now?

• 8:03Speaker 02

  None.

• 8:04Pablo Torre?

  Great.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know if it was intentional, but the T-shirt I'm wearing is, uh, a Peanuts T-shirt from the Halloween special where Charlie Brown goes trick-or-treating and everywhere he goes, all the other kids get candy and he got a rock.

• 8:21Speaker 04

  I got five pieces of candy. I got a chocolate bar. I got a quarter. I got a rock.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Maybe I chose this because this is how I'm feeling. I feel like, yeah, Halloween came and I got a rock. And that's really the, that's really all I got at this point is just a bag of rocks. How does that special hold up now? You know, in, in Donald Trump 2.0? Do you think back on it? Are there any jokes that are? I mean, if anything, it is weird because...

• 8:56Speaker 02

  That they they play this sort of same Charlie Brown joke that they do in the strip a lot where Lucy holds the football and pulls the football away. And there is something about that hope that Charlie Brown has that feels like a hope that I think a lot of us had. Yeah. That, oh, OK, this is it. We're gonna kick the football this time. And things may not be perfect for everybody, but we're gonna get back to, we're gonna try to get to some level of civility, that maybe our discourse can be a little more civil, maybe we can try to be a little more rational with this. And, no.

• 9:36Pablo Torre?

  Yes, Snoopy now had 5 million people watching his livestream of the election. He's a conservative influencer now.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  And it was Candace Owens was on it.

• 9:44Pablo Torre?

  I want to start with an element that has stuck to my brain as I've been lint rolling across the internet. As I've been contemplating why it is that the Republican Party has won the largest majority since 1988, Tim?

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 9:59Pablo Torre?

  Is that right, still?

• 9:59Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 10:00Pablo Torre?

  And and I keep on returning to this idea of like Kamala Harris had this feel of being a system quarterback at a time when the system was.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Brock Berti.

• 10:13Pablo Torre?

  Was. I deeply loved the Shanahan offense that was democracy, that was the institution as a premise, mainstream, anything, actually, like a system at all. I was deeply a fan of, and I sort of presumed that others, many more others would be too. Turned out that that system faced coverage, to torture the metaphor here, that that made it very easy to defeat. And one of those coverages was explained by Dana White.

• 10:51Speaker 05

  I want to thank some people real quick. I want to thank the Nelk Boys, Aiden Ross, Theo Vaughn, Bustle with the Boys, and last but not least, the mighty and powerful Joe Rogan.

• 11:06Speaker 05

  And thank you, America. Thank you. Have a good night.

• 11:11Pablo Torre?

  They got that shout out from Dana White at the Trump victory party. And I return to that because of course it

• 11:21Pablo Torre?

  it summoned in me lots of bigger picture thoughts about like, oh, of course we're here. Of course it was gonna go like this in retrospect. Of course, people didn't give a about January 6th. Of course, the system of democracy was a system to be run against. And of course, this is far more structural, maybe than people might appreciate at this moment. Like, I was I was looking at, to bring up another insane meme, right? I was looking at Antonio Brown's Twitter account.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:48Pablo Torre?

  Because of course,

• 11:49Speaker 02

  AB84.

• 11:50Pablo Torre?

  An unemployable former NFL player.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  He'll find a he'll find a job in the new cabinet.

• 11:54Pablo Torre?

  That's right. Who was kicked out of the league for multiple cases of sexual misconduct and also domestic violence. His Twitter account might be run, actually, at least is allegedly run by a white dude somewhere who just posts racial slurs.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 12:07Pablo Torre?

  So that guy posted this meme where it was like Elon and Trump and RIP mainstream media. And Antonio Brown has like the bolt cutters, the wire cutters or whatever, and they have the shovels. And I'm like, as much as I am going to land upon the death of mainstream media as a thing I actually do increasingly believe in, I don't even think they get the credit for it. It seems structural, like we know this. The reason it summoned all those feelings is because we know this as people making stuff online.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 12:38Pablo Torre?

  That there is no mainstream. We're all in silos. Of course, you can eat away at a system in a world in which there is no larger consensus or guardrail or monoculture or anything like that.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Yes, I have two thoughts in this. One, the total collapse of the monoculture, of the structures that like we've seen across a lot of other verticals, like coming to politics. Right? Yeah, that should not be surprising. Like the democratization of, that's why we're all here. Right? Like that's like the democratization of media, the democratization of, came to our political system. It does recall Kent Brockman talking about how democracy simply doesn't work.

• 13:16Speaker 06

  I've said it before and I'll say it again. Democracy simply doesn't work.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Maybe what we should have been more protective of was the Borg, the system of liberal democracy, because I don't know that people are gonna like what happens in post-liberal America. That said, the Democrats could have played this game too, you know? And so I hate to, you know, I hate to Monday morning quarterback and all this, because it's like, Trump, Trump won across the, like, America wanted Trump. So at some level, it's like, there's a hollowness to be like, if you just would have done this one podcast, like, it would have been different, right? That said, there are Democrats that could have gone, that could have gone into those spaces and I think, taken down the temperature a little bit. And like, made them feel less like they were in this battle of civilizations.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Because like, the, oh, like, these guys are not ideologues, right? Like, they have some ideological views on things that some progressives find, would find offensive, particularly about trans folks or things like that. It's not William F. Buckley. Like, they don't have these constructed conservative worldviews. Like, you go in there and start talking to them about [bleep] that Trump did, that they don't even know about. You know what I mean? I couldn't have engaged and like, kind of, you know, cut the, you know, cut into that. But does that only just legitimize that platform? Isn't that over? They're, I mean, they were mentioned at the victory speech of the President of the United States. Sure, no. So it's over. Like, they've legitimized. Well, now they are legitimate, yeah. But I'm saying the idea that Bernie Sanders would go on Rogan,

• 14:50Speaker 02

  the idea that Harris was considering going on Rogan, is that only sort of saying, like, how much of it is, okay, we're going to meet this particular sect of disaffected voter, where they're at, versus asking them to be better and be better informed? Because the reality is. They're not, they're not getting better. They're not. But also, the reality is like.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  White people have overwhelmingly voted Republican for over 50 years. Like, that's like, they've always voted in that block. And I'm lumping in a lot of that Rogan audience, a lot of that Nelk Boy audience, as some of that demographic. I don't know that we fully understand why every presidential election, when you look at the white voter, the majority of white voters have voted Republican. I think it's more about understanding that.

• 15:48Pablo Torre?

  Tim mentioned something why that connects to what you were just articulating, which is that there are lots of people who are low information. That's the term of art in politics, AKA, they aren't paying attention to politics, really, and are getting their news, insofar as it's news, from such places.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:06Pablo Torre?

  Right? And what that says is, even if you know the information, you're like, not a deal breaker for me.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:13Pablo Torre?

  Felonies, rape in a civil suit, insurrections, go down the list, right? It's endless.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:21Pablo Torre?

  The other thing about it is, there are some people for whom they just don't even know, or, maybe even as troubling, they aren't getting their news in a way that is persuasive to the cause of defending Said American Project. And I think the whole question of like, is it, are we just [bleep] on this?

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 16:48Pablo Torre?

  I'm voting yes.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Probably. I'm upgrading to probably.

• 16:52Pablo Torre?

  So, so it reminds, and I'm gonna force-feed sports into this, not because I feel like I have an obligation to, but just because I think about my time as a sports reporter. At Sports Illustrated, their website was looked down upon forever. No one wanted to write for the website, because it was the internet.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:10Pablo Torre?

  And you know who went and wrote for it? Peter King. And Peter King became the literal Monday morning quarterback to Miller. And he built an empire and had so much more success than the vast majority of Sports Illustrated writers, because he recognized, okay, I'm not respected as much at the magazine, I'm gonna go online.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:26Pablo Torre?

  And so, the lead that the Democratic Party, the American Project broadly, the liberal project broadly, has surrendered is...

• 17:35Pablo Torre?

  The internet has been ceded to people who were not as welcomed in those mainstream prestige outlets. And now we're trying to play catch up with the [bleep] Elk Boys.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, but big time catch up. It reminds me of, I'll make the political reference of like 2012 with Romney where we were like, "Oh, [bleep], like the Obama team organized on the internet. Like, we should probably do that now, next time, you know? And so like it flips, so it can flip back. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, it's not as if it is, um, you know, uh, like we're only going one direction. And like if one side takes the lead on one platform, then it can't flip. You know what I mean?

• 18:10Pablo Torre?

  But we're so fragmented now where I just don't, again, literally the mainstream, I think is, Antonio Brown is right about this. There is no mainstream. If there's mainstream anything.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  I guess that's why I just think that it's like, I just think the only choice is to engage with, in that world or else you're [bleep]. And sure, there's other choices, like building your own platforms. Like, I forget who, I saw somebody on the internet, fell off my lint roller, I guess, but somebody on the internet was like, "The libs need their own Rogan." And I'm like, "I don't know if the libs can build a Rogan." Like, you know, because part of the.

• 18:40Pablo Torre?

  Wyatt, do you want to be?

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe, maybe you can try it. But part of the reason, part of the reason to be Rogan is you have to be able to like, just say random [bleep] you're thinking about that might be a little offensive or might be totally wrong. And like, that's what's appealing. And that is like unethical to the dominant, like, democratic lib culture, right? And so it's like, you can't build a responsible Rogan. Like, that's not like a thing to do. But I think there was, like, when I look at Rogan and I look at a lot of comedians who've moved into the podcast space, to me, what I see is what they're doing is they're just emulating late night talk show hosts.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Rogan is emulating Jon Stewart. And the idea of, like, Jon loved to engage in long, deep conversations with politicians, with authors, with actors as well. There's no network that wanted to give that person a late night talk show. And so then they found this space in the podcast world where they could be their own version of The Daily Show or The Tonight Show or whatever they wanted to do. And so I think to some degree, that Rogan existed. It's just that.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  The appetite for it in the same way that the appetite for right wing radio always surpassed the appetite for- That's a good comparison. Yeah, for left leaning or progressive radio. So the question is like, how can you reach those people? And I don't know, I'm open to other ideas besides going on on those programs and like demonstrating that we care about people having healthcare, you know, I also, I like entrepreneurship, actually, I think, you know, building businesses is great. And like, I'm, I'm chill, I can talk about sports, like, I just, I don't know what the other solution is besides doing that, because I think that right now, they, the, those folks on those platforms are getting the impression that everybody's like, you're bad, you're bad, we're ragging our fingers at you, you have a bad opinion and you're bad. And so then, obviously, that they're gonna vote Trump because they want a big

• 20:42Speaker 02

  [bleep] middle finger into all the people that are pointing their finger and saying, you're bad. Right. But how much of that is, we're trying to meet this base where they're at, hoping that we can appeal to an empathy that historically, we just haven't seen versus, I don't know, if we put our energy into saying like, okay, well, what if, what if that energy is just put into making our target electorate, their lives better? Like, what if we say like, okay, let's just put our energy into like, let's build the [bleep] up out of those public schools, out of like, and is there something of like, oh, when

• 21:24Speaker 02

  you're looking across the fence and you can actually tangibly see, okay, we've made life better for women, we've made life better for people of color, for LGBTQ people? So here's my pushback on that. Didn't, isn't, wasn't that the theory of Bidenism? Like, didn't Biden do that? Like, kind of? Like, people's lives are getting better? I mean, things aren't great.

• 21:44Pablo Torre?

  Well, I wanna, I should mention the word inflation here, right? So when we're talking about what people can feel, like, what is a tension if not a mechanism through which you actually feel something and have to think about something? And it turned out that it's really hard to break through about pretty much everything, except for a couple of monocultural concepts, one of which might be, hey, it's the American character Donald Trump, we all have a view of him, even if it's radically different. The other one is, prices have been going up. And when you talk about how the DNC and the Democratic Party feels, I think it feels like the embodiment of the institution, of the system, of incumbency.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:26Pablo Torre?

  And so I want to connect it to inflation, just in the sense of, of course, there's also this larger, broader global trend of post pandemic inflation has been a thing across all of these governments, all these societies, and all of these incumbent parties have been suffering huge and seemingly irrefutable losses because they happen to be the party in charge of the thing people can feel when they're not paying attention to

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:53Pablo Torre?

  the persuasive arguments we're trying to make on podcasts.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  I don't know about you, but I think that's probably true. And maybe there's just a nothing matters situation. And like, we're all just sitting around here like, micro analyzing something that like was global forces and it was bad luck and we're in hell. And it's just the bad luck happened to work out for Donald Trump again. So it's possible it's that. But like, just really quick to your point about like improving people's lives. It's like Biden. So just like, for example, they built manufacturing plants in a lot of like red America, right? Like they didn't do the thing of, oh, we're just gonna, you know, give out federal money to California and to blue areas, right? It's like, no, like we're gonna build plants and, uh, and build communities back up in places like Springfield, right? Like we're gonna invest in these communities. And the people in the communities,

• 23:39Speaker 02

  like the feedback was like, nah, man, like, no thanks. Like, I'm kind of, I'm mad that the new jobs that came into town actually brought Haitians with them. And they might be eating the dogs and like, so.

• 23:50Pablo Torre?

  And the cats.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  And yeah, and the goats and the ducks from the pond. And so like, I'm not, I'm out, I'm going for Trump. Right? Like, so I guess that's my question is like, is there actually evidence that tangibly helping people's lives would have made a difference?

• 24:02Pablo Torre?

  I, yeah, I don't, this is the thing I don't know. And, and to, and sort of to your point. I just want to just remark upon that sentence. Cause we all agree, we don't know whether tangibly helping people's lives makes a difference.

• 24:22Pablo Torre?

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  Head to dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

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• 27:11Speaker 02

  Here's another theory I've just been noodling on the last 48 hours. It's like, can people be happy in the phone, in the social media era? Like, or not happy, but satisfied, right? You know, because, because there's a way to look at the last four years. It's like inflation was deeply annoying. And I get it. And particularly for people whose incomes were flat. It was, I know it was really hard, right? But like, also there are other parts of society. There were plenty of Trump people voting for, plenty of the 70 some odd million people that, when the final count comes in, voted for Trump. Plenty of them are doing pretty well. They have boats, they do parades, they got the flagpole. So some of, some of them were hurt by inflation.

• 27:49Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, they have boat parades, actually.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  And so, but the question is then, besides that, like, things are like, basically good. I mean, at least in a historical perspective. I mean, like, is everybody pissed because inflation? Or is everybody pissed because like, in the little device, in the little box of screens, you know, like, you're constantly seeing bad news, constantly put in front of your face, rather than just seeing it once at night during the nightly news? And so like, maybe the establishment or whatever, whoever's in charge, like, people can never be happy with it. Well, and how much of that as well, though, is? A battle between nostalgia versus what could be. It's so much harder to get people to imagine what could be and what the and potential.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  But it's a hell of a lot easier to get them to kind of remember and look fondly at the past. And this idea of nostalgia. And I think you see it not just in the Republican Party. I think you see it across the board where people say, you know, things seemed so much easier back then. And it's very easy to cherry pick what those things were. And I think the Trump campaign has done a really good job on preying on that sort of nostalgia. That nostalgia muscle that we have.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  And that's so, I feel like that is so much easier than the idea of, hey, can I get you to imagine what could be? And unverdant by what has been. Yes, yeah.

• 29:24Pablo Torre?

  We should write that down.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  That's we just, I think we just made a pillow. We should cross stitch that into a pillow.

• 29:32Pablo Torre?

  This one will work.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and sell that at Target. And I think, I think we're on to something here. But yeah, I don't know. I think that aspect, because even when I think about somebody like Trump and where Trump is successful, is also the fact that he has been around for so long and that he can speak to some of that nostalgia in a way where it's that thing of he's been referenced in, in songs and he's in movies and he's been around.

• 30:01Pablo Torre?

  You know him. We all do literally have experience with him at this point.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, in a weird way, I think about, I even think about this with Mitt Romney, where when I was making problem areas, I got really fascinated going through old Life magazines. And I remember going through a Life magazine because we were, it was, we were focusing on education. And we're going, I was going through, and there was an article about George Romney. And in it, there is like a whole paragraph about 12 year old Mitt Romney. And there are photos of Mitt Romney. And if you were someone who was reading Life Magazine, one, you're aware of George Romney. But Mitt Romney is already getting, he's burrowing into your brain. He is the, you know, he's one of Kanye's children.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  You're already getting familiar with him. And I think there's an element when I'm reading that and seeing that where I was like, oh, that was probably very helpful that you, you saw this person at 12. Then when they started to run for public office, it's, oh, right. That kid, yeah. He's not my neighbor kid, but he is that kid that I saw and I've watched him grow up. And I think Trump- So what nostalgic minor Democratic celebrity could we put up in 2028 to save the, save the country? Yeah, this is a good question. Who's out there?

• 31:19Pablo Torre?

  And can we invent magazines again?

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Yes, can we, can we get magazines? And yes, who will be our, yeah, is it the kid from Mad Men? I don't know. I feel like it needs to be a boy. Sorry, I'm sorry. I mean, I'd be happy for it to be a woman. But I feel like we should roll with a boy next time, probably. Yeah, uh, yeah. Is it Cannon Curry? Do we, do we put our, our eggs in the Cannon Curry basket? I don't know. His name is Cannon. That feels like you're gonna get, you're, you're gonna get a lot of warhawks that are like, I'll vote for Cannon. Yeah, strong. Yeah, oh, he's strong, yeah.

• 31:57Pablo Torre?

  We're sort of circling this larger, uh, truly, and I say this a lot, so drink if you're, uh, playing along at home, existential question of like, who influences America anymore? And the thing about Trump, the thing that I, Tim, uh, am constantly struggling with, that I'm frustrated by, is that people, I don't think, uh, are paying enough attention to the absolute suicide squad of people, of psychopaths around him at this point. That should be persuasive. And I bring it to you because the thing you brought us is something that you happen to be a character in, actually.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  On the last January 6th and the fact that you incited a mob that ended up

• 32:43Speaker 05

  That would be, that would be, that would be, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, if, if, if you look at what we said is that as the states requested, seven states requested, never got to, a, hang on, a full, a full, a full review, this is caused Vice President Pence didn't handle it correctly. This caused Vice President Pence did not handle it correctly. No, no, no, no, absolutely no change for the simple reason is, is that we should have had a review as requested by the states for all seven states at that time. Tim, thank you very much.

• 33:20Speaker 05

  But Tim, if you want to make, continue to make speeches, it's good television. I don't want to, I don't want to talk about personal conversations.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  That was Bannon's post-jail press conference.

• 33:30Pablo Torre?

  Great.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  It was on the, I believe, 12th floor, 12 or 17 are both in my head, a high floor at the Park Avenue Lowe's. So, you know, the type of place that a working man goes when they get out of prison.

• 33:43Pablo Torre?

  In his barbed wire coat and his, and his mane of silver hair.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  And so he held a press conference there. I've interviewed Bannon several times. As you could tell, for people watching, this little smirk on his face. He enjoys sparring with people. He enjoys sparring with me. Like the other questions after me was like, hey Steve, I'm from like magapatriot.org and I was wondering, do you think Mr. Trump's gonna win New York? You know what I mean? Like, and Bannon, for all of his flaws, you know, he likes to have his brain muscles moved. He'd rather, he'd rather be challenged and spar than deal with the lunatics around him. But to your point about, what'd you call it, the Suicide Squad? Yeah, the lunatics. Like, the people at this [bleep] press conference who are now about to be running our government, well, who are about to be dismantling our government, actually, they...

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Like Bannon is, was the most normal and probably the smartest person in the room by like a mile. So if you thought his like weird pirate, like triple shirt vibe is like, and like, you know, basement, you know, the bath salts he had apparently in his house, I think that's strange. Like the dudes around him, I mean, it is like you're in a, like, I felt like I was in a movie with like a fake Eastern European country. And like this Svengali for the autocrat gets out of jail and it's like, I've got the one eyed man here and I've got like-

• 35:05Pablo Torre?

  An actual monkey paw.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  And I've got like two hot blonde chicks and I've got- It sounds like Minions 5. Yeah, yeah. And it was, the people around him, in the room, among others, were Jeff Clark, the, you might remember him if you're really online, as the guy that tried to help with Trump's coup, who was in the Justice Department. And when the feds went to raid his house, he was pictured outside in his undies. Mike Davis is there. He tweets insanely about how people are gonna go into the Gulags and how he wants to be the viceroy of DC. You had the New York Young Republican Club, which has gone very MAGA. A couple of the, the bros from that were there.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  A couple of former mainstream media reporters who had sexual assault issues that have now recaptured themselves as MAGA reporters are there. Like, who are the people that are opting in just at that point, before Trump had won again?

• 35:58Pablo Torre?

  Pre, so I wanna make this point-

• 35:59Speaker 02

  It's like post-January 6th, pre-Trump winning again. And you're like, I wanna be, I wanna roll with that crew. Right. Like, think about the type of person that attracts.

• 36:08Pablo Torre?

  And I want, the reason I want to just stay on this for a bit is because before these people are also mainstreamed under the skirt of Donald Trump, I want to acknowledge that from a purely just anthropological, objective level, these people are freaks.

• 36:29Pablo Torre?

  Dozens upon dozens of them in his cabinet all said, "We would never work for/vote for him again", which speaks to how good he is actually at hiring people. And so now he's going to the bench, the fourth stringers of this movement.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  I feel like that's the part of it that is even more terrifying is, yeah, the notion that there are people who already worked for him who are like, "No, we can't do this again", and that it was still not enough to both convince voters to say, "Okay, he's maybe not a good CEO of a country", which countries don't need CEOs. And it feels, and even just that, the idea that like, you don't want someone to run a country like a business. A business gets run where you are always looking to slash the bottom line. You are not thinking humanely, you are thinking profit-wise.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  And maybe that all circles back, but the idea that you have people who worked for him, who came away feeling like, "Yeah, that wasn't the most humane way to do this [BLEEP]", and then new people have jumped on and said, "Hell yeah, actually." No, actually, I was into that. Like, the worst parts of Trump, like, the people that are me around now are like, the worst, they're not like the butt, the, "Oh, I wish, I wish, you know, he didn't send the mean tweets." Right. You know, it's not those people. The people that are going into work for him now are like, "Hell yeah, the mean tweets. Hell yeah, January 6th. Hell yeah, mass deportations. That's what I'm signing up for."

• 38:05Pablo Torre?

  Right. And in fact, I wanna, I wanna strike my characterization of freaks from the record, because I don't think that actually captures what I'm talking about. I'm talking about scammers.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 38:15Pablo Torre?

  Just like people for whom corruption is the light that a moth should go towards. These are people who are opportunists without any semblance of shame. There are so many characters where I just need people to understand, I guess, that Tucker Carlson, just in case you're wondering what he's talking about now, he's talking about this. Do you think that there-

• 38:41Speaker 06

  Are deeper forces at play here? Is this more than just Steve Bannon and Tucker Carlson and Elon Musk? And a bunch of guys running around talking about in this material world, you know, politics and being Democrats and taking on the intelligence, legal, financial apparatus? Is there something deeper going on here?

• 39:02Speaker 05

  So not only is the is this the battle in the unseen world? Not only is it part of what we're seeing, it is it is actually what we're seeing. We're seeing the physical manifestations of something that's been going on for eternity. But yeah, no, I was on February 20th, 2023. I was attacked in my bed by a spiritual being and clawed and left bleeding and scarred. Again, this war between forces that we can't see, but that has been ongoing and has been in fact described by every culture since the beginning. Every culture that we know about has described this battle. And in fact, it's been the basis of every religion. It's certainly the basis of Christianity, which I think is true. By the way, factually speaking, Christianity is true. But even if you don't, I think you can acknowledge that we're the only culture

• 39:45Speaker 05

  that hasn't been really absorbed in thinking and talking about this. Not since we dropped the atomic bomb in Nagasaki, the second one in August of 1945, and decided that we were gods and that God himself no longer existed. Since then, we have been a secular society, and that's why we're now being destroyed, in my view. If you're making the case that abortion is an affirmative good, you are evil. You're practicing child sacrifice, worshiping abortion, the killing of kids? Not as something that like needs to happen, unfortunately, but as something that is good, that's pro-abortion, you know? People, and I have to say, I'm sure I'll be attacked for saying this, but I really believe it. People are like, oh, well, we had another hurricane, must be global warming. No, it's probably abortion, actually, just being honest. You can't do that. You can't kill children on purpose, knowing that you're doing that

• 40:29Speaker 05

  in exchange for power or freedom or happiness, whatever you think you're getting in.

• 40:32Pablo Torre?

  You can't participate in human sacrifice without consequences. I feel like we just need to really drill down on the part where he says he was attacked by a demon in his bed.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  I think in this clip, he says spiritual being. In a different interview, he does say demon. The word demon is used.

• 40:49Pablo Torre?

  Yes, yes, yes. He is very clear that he's in a bed with four dogs and his wife. And he wakes up with claw marks underneath his arms. And the only explanation is that, and this is not a poetic description, a literal demon has attacked Tucker Carlson.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  It was bad. Physically mauled. And a spiritual attack by a demon? Yeah, by a demon. The dogs would probably have been the number one culprit. I would have gone to, um, I just, it's just.

• 41:17Pablo Torre?

  Dogs don't have claws.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have four, four dogs in the bed.

• 41:20Pablo Torre?

  Nope, don't believe that.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Claw marks. I would have probably gone to the dogs, um, on, on that theory. A demon is an alternate case. But, you know, I mean, to me, like, again, that, whenever you think about that clip and, and some, some people believe in, in heaven and hell and demons and, and angels, and that's fine. But like, these, these are the, this is the inner circle.

• 41:42Pablo Torre?

  That's, that's the respectable one.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  That's the [bleep] inner circle up there. Like, like, all that [bleep] he's talking about, global warming is caused by abortion and like, we're in a spiritual battle and the left is evil and the left are demons. And the demons are attacking me because they're mad that I've gone after the left. Like that, like that guy pick was very influential in picking the vice president. Right. When Trump was like finally deciding about his VP, right? He had, he had JD and then there were like two boring old school Republican, like, uh, well, Doug Burgum, one white guy, and then Marco Rubio, the, the Cuban guy. And, uh, from, uh, Dan's buddy.

• 42:15Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  And Tucker calls Trump. He's like, if you pick Rubio or Burgum, uh, the neocon, deep state establishment that wants war and that hates you and that is part of that demonic left wing force that's them, they will kill you. Because then Rubio will be able to take over and the whatever, the military industrial complex and the globalists and all that will take over. And like Tucker said that to, that was not like on Tucker's podcast. Like that was a private conversation between Tucker and Trump. That was, that was later, uh, leaked to a reporter. And to me, it's like. I mean, these guys are deep in the sauce. Yeah.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Um, and, uh, and they're about to be running everything.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  The corruption is gonna be, I think, way worse this time than the last time. In part because, you know, I guess there's a chance Trump will try to stay. But most people around him will consider like this is our, this is the last time at the piggy bank. You know, so like, I'm gonna go in hard. Uh, and then, and I think that he won this time with the help of like Elon and a lot of these very rich oligarchs in a way that that wasn't really true last time, actually. Like the, the billionaire class was, was pretty much unanimously against Trump in 2016 and he won anyway. Except for Thiel, right? Yeah, Thiel, right, yeah. So, um, so this time there's gonna be a lot more, a lot more piggies at the trough, right?

• 43:53Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, people for whom he is a vessel to accomplish their own goals.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. Um, and he'll be 82 at the end of it, so there'll be a lot more room for people to maneuver. And so, and I think Trump will think, well, the Trump family and everybody, all of them will see this as their last opportunity. So, look, there's plenty of corruption last time, but I, I just think that like the straight, old school, like, machine city, you know, mayor daily type, like, bag, paper bag type corruption, like, I think we're gonna see a lot more of this time. I think there's a certain group of people that aren't gonna be cool with that, right? Like, again, I, I think sometimes we like, we do pejorative at the people that are listening to Theo and, and Knuckleboys and all that stuff. And like, some of those people are like ideologically have taken the red pill and are far right. And some of them are just like guys who are like, [BLEEP] the establishment, [BLEEP] the people, [BLEEP] the mainstream.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  And like, those people, I think, are way more gettable with focusing on the Trump corruption stories and how he screws you over and how he's, and how he's part of the establishment, than rather than the stories about like, Trump made fun of Arnold, or like, Trump talked about Arnold Palmer's huge [BLEEP] and like, that's un-presidential, right? Like, and so, to me, in my mind, like, that's something that I'm gonna try to pivot my energy towards in this next time, because I think it might be more effective. Also, nothing might matter, right? Like, but I'm just saying, like, it feels like it could potentially.

• 45:14Pablo Torre?

  What we might wanna consider, actually, is running Joe Biden again. Can we try that? Do you think that, do you think that we can get more Biden in the next election cycle?

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Hunter.

• 45:25Pablo Torre?

  Ah. You know, you know.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  The MAGA bros kinda like Hunter.

• 45:29Pablo Torre?

  You know, you know who quietly might love a Nelk boy? And vice versa?

• 45:33Speaker 02

  Hunter.

• 45:34Pablo Torre?

  Is Hunter Biden.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  I think, I think we should think about running. So far, the best idea I've heard on this podcast for 2028 is Hunter. Would you get behind a Hunter Biden 2028 run? Or is that a little too? I, I mean, at this point, I'm, I don't, I don't know. I feel like. You're open to it, though. Well, no, I, I mean, I have, I, I have, I, I technically have Grenadian citizenship. So I'm kind of like, is this, do I just try to create my own, my own weird fiefdom down there? And do I try to become the Trump of Grenada? I would, I'm into, this is an interesting idea, cause could I, do you need an advisor? I, I do. Consigliere of any kind?

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I would, I need, I need a whole, I need a, this is a, this is a ground up bill, so.

• 46:21Pablo Torre?

  Can I get like a military apololets?

• 46:24Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 46:24Pablo Torre?

  As Grenadian Trump's Secretary of Sports.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Yes, as Grump, uh, yeah. I'm just gonna go, I'm gonna change my name to Gronald Grump and run. I think I'd look good. And what's the, what are the, how are gay, is gay marriage legal in Grenada?

• 46:41Pablo Torre?

  Under, under Grump's administration.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, under Grump's administration, yeah. It would be, okay, cool. Under the Grump administration, yeah.

• 46:47Pablo Torre?

  Socially liberal.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  I'm not seeing, I'm not seeing a lot of holes here. Yeah, yeah.

• 46:50Pablo Torre?

  Super into crypto.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  I, I do like the Ring of Grump coin. This is all, uh, yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  We talked about this a little bit, but where, cause now I feel like this, this is dovetailing. And you mentioned Elon Musk. And even just in thinking about, like, there is the corruption that is, that I feel like we are going to see as far as, like, the financial corruption. But I also feel like there is a sort of human capital corruption that we maybe don't talk about as, as much, where I feel like for a lot of these folks. They view a certain amount of the population as just kind of disposable. And so I look at something like what Elon Musk's influence in a Trump administration is going to be,

• 47:42Speaker 02

  and what the human cost of that is going to be as Trump has said, oh, I would let him do what he did to Twitter, to, you know, government bureaucracy and let him take a, you know, take the red pen to that with no regard for, okay, we will slash this department. And then that means these hundreds of people are out of work. I am not concerned with how to employ them. No, they enjoy that, actually. It's not just that they're not concerned. It's like, hell, yeah, learn to code. Right, yes, yeah. If at best, at best, learn to code. But also, I don't care if you don't. And so I think there is that element of it that I'm just like,

• 48:26Speaker 02

  ah, like, that's the other part of this, which is, okay, they will slash a budget. Even when I think about like, somebody like Musk talking about when he was initially talking about going to Mars and Mars colonization, I feel like one of the things that often got forgotten in that conversation was him very openly saying, the first generations of people who go there will die very quickly. It's dangerous, it's uncomfortable, it's a long journey. You might not, you know, come back alive. But it's a glorious adventure and it'll be amazing, an amazing experience. And your name will go in history. Yes, you might die. It's gonna be uncomfortable and you probably won't have good food.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's fine. They're gonna die.

• 49:12Pablo Torre?

  As I, as I sort of make peace with the fact that, oh, Elon Musk will be the most powerful private citizen in the history of America.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  By far, by the way.

• 49:21Pablo Torre?

  I am now, I am now afraid of the way in which I do believe. That Elon Musk himself is somebody with a vision and a multi-planetary, multi-generational plan. There are lots of people that we've described who aren't actually planners, who are in fact the Remora fish at a Steve Bannon press conference. Elon Musk is playing chess and that's, that's, that's, that's good.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  Is it chess or is it Hungry Hungry Hippos? Cause it feels a little bit like Hungry Hungry Hippos to me, honestly, more than chess. I feel like we're, we're giving him a little too much credit. With the little pearl balls? Yeah, yeah. He's the hippo? Yeah, he's the hippo. He's all four hippos. All four hippos? Yeah. But I also, this, this, you asked me to bring something and something that I am reminded of is a book that I read some years ago called The Space Merchants and it's an old pulp science fiction book. And not too long ago, I listened to this podcast that Jill Lepore did called The Evening Rocket and it was a really fascinating podcast. And the podcast

• 50:34Speaker 02

  kind of looks at Elon Musk through the science fiction that he is a fan of. And as it happens, this was a book I found, just like someone was selling it on the sidewalk in Manhattan. And I was just bored and I bought it for like three bucks.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  This book is a book that is beloved by him. It's a book that's beloved by Jeff Bezos.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  The setting of this book is a sort of future dystopia where we don't have states as they exist anymore. States have now been carved up to countries, to companies. And so there's no longer the senator from Missouri. It is now the senator from Dow Chemical, the senator from 3M. And the other part of this is perhaps the biggest industry in this society is advertising. And it's advertising to just keep a consumer class that is just buying things and is totally blinded to the fact that the country is being run by corporations.

• 51:41Speaker 02

  And this book is, I feel like when you're saying like, oh, this guy's playing chess. It kind of feels like, no, he's just cribbing this book that is a science fiction book. Where I don't know that he finished reading the book, which is by the end of the book, one of these ad agents who had been sort of red pilled into this world, gets radicalized and realizes, oh, wait a minute, we're all like, I need to fight against this. And then uses his energy to try to fight against this thing. Which I feel like it's at that point that perhaps Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos fell asleep before. And they were like, yeah, that book was good. Let's, yeah, I want to be the space merchant.

• 52:23Pablo Torre?

  Yeah. I should be clear. I'm not sure Elon Musk is good at chess. He's definitely attempting to play it.

• 52:45Pablo Torre?

  At the end of every episode of Palpatine, finds out a show where we find stuff out. We go around the table and we say what we found out today. Wyatt, do you want to start us off? What did you find out?

• 52:56Speaker 02

  I mean, I guess I found out a couple of things. The, perhaps the, the best thing I found out is that the Grump administration, it's, it's beginning. We're laying the groundwork. Yeah, we're gonna make Grenada Grump again. Yeah. Um, so that I'm excited by. Beyond that, uh, yeah, I, I, nothing hopeful. I don't, I guess I don't know if I found this out, but you've made me think about this a little more deeply than I have since Tuesday night as my brain just won't turn off. Like, we all knew that, like, the democratization of everything was, was, was created, was crumbling, all of these establishments. Institutions, right? And like there is, in some ways, it's like, you mentioned Sports Illustrated.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  It's earlier. It's like, Sports Illustrated is dead.

• 53:43Pablo Torre?

  And now I'm here.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yay. We've replaced it with something better and more authentic and like closer to the people. Right? And, you know, you could do this across like a million, a million verticals. Right? And I, and I knew that was happening in politics. The malicious forces took advantage of that in a much more effective way.

• 54:03Pablo Torre?

  What I found out today is that Donald Trump is mainstream media. There is no more mainstream character than that guy. And all of these downstream effects follow from that. And so what we really need, if we're going to save, you know, the institution that is America, democracy, which is a deeply unpopular cause, it turns out, relative to expectation, is that you need someone who is both an institutionalist, but also a revolutionary, someone who can speak to a broad, it turns out, almost startlingly racially diverse coalition of Hispanics and all of the others that are now trending.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, you can't let, you can't let your people off the hook.

• 54:40Pablo Torre?

  No, no, no, we got folded into the other category in every chart that I saw. We're in the other thing. You can't prove that we're in there. We need someone who can be all of these things, who is familiar with sparring against conservative influencers on podcasts. And so I just want to say, I salute Democratic nominee Stephen A. Smith.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  Oh, God. SAS. Okay. Hunter Biden or SAS or Stephen A.?

• 55:09Pablo Torre?

  Why not both?

• 55:20Pablo Torre?

  This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Metal Arc Media production. And we are produced by Walter Everoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Rachel Miller Howard, Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tumanello, and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post. Our theme song, as always, by John Bravo. And we will talk to you next time.

• 55:54Pablo Torre?

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