The Sporting Class: The Chiefs' Dynastic Moment

Is the NFL's total domination good for the business of other sports? Is it OK to watch games alone? Is every dynasty villainous? And how can Fox resolve Tom Brady's conflict of interest with the Raiders? Plus: The Lever of Power, The OnlyCast, the Galukes vs. the Monhonks vs. the Mohunks, rec-erectollections — and an executive leap into the abyss. Subscribe to Nothing Personal with David Samson https://www.youtube.com/@NPDS Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Pablo Torre?

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• 0:44Pablo Torre?

  from small businesses to larger organizations, and it's built for teams who want less manual busy work and more time with buyers. If your marketing and sales teams are trying to work from the same view of the customer, it's worth a look. Sign up for free at Apollo.io. That's Apollo.io.

• 1:02Speaker 01

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• 1:47Pablo Torre?

  This episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out is brought to you by McDonald's. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Medium Fries and a Drink is now $8. And look, I've chased down a lot of strange stories, but nothing quite like what's inside a Quarter Pounder with Cheese. It is 100% fresh beef cooked right when you order it with no artificial flavors, colors, fillers, or preservatives in the beef. The onions are hand-topped by someone who knows the perfect amount by memory, two slices of cheese and a star, and two pickles side by side. So every bite gets both. And every time one's ordered, a cowbell sound rings in the kitchen. That's the grill master's cue to put a fresh patty on the grill.

• 2:28Pablo Torre?

  My move, QPC, fries and a drink after a long day of recording. That is my happy place. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Fries and a Drink, now $8 for a limited time only, only at McDonald's. For a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery, fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery. Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre and today, we're gonna find out what this sound is.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  LeBron James actually ran past me and then somebody else ran past me. I'm like, I know he's not here.

• 3:10Pablo Torre?

  Right after this ad.

• 3:12Speaker 03

  You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  We are laughing about the relative heights of our chairs. But when I was at ESPN, I always made sure I had the highest chair.

• 3:40Pablo Torre?

  Wait, in a, this is-

• 3:41Speaker 02

  In a meeting, to see you.

• 3:43Pablo Torre?

  You wanted to look down upon everybody.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  No, I wanted them to have to look up to me.

• 3:50Pablo Torre?

  I feel like this again is a big, a big illustration of how we think about topics. Power, stature.

• 4:01Speaker 04

  All of that matters. I was telling Levittard on a recent show that I would do conversations with players only standing on the top step of the dugout with them in the dugout. Because I didn't want to go in with the power dynamic of me, or I would do it sitting down on the bench in the dugout. But I wouldn't want to do any sort of serious conversation with the player or with anyone where there is a huge height difference.

• 4:25Pablo Torre?

  It sounds like you were on the top step quite a bit then.

• 4:29Speaker 04

  There were, yes, I was. And there's some pictures online where I'm not on the top step. I'm walking or I'm talking to Stanton and there's such a big difference. And it's, uh, it's not where I want to be. So I'm with the chair here. I noticed you screwed me. You moved chairs.

• 4:43Pablo Torre?

  I don't move any of the chairs.

• 4:45Speaker 04

  Well, there's no side table and this chair doesn't go up and down the way that chair does. And I always take that chair with the lever on the right. And now John has it and John is purposefully.

• 4:53Pablo Torre?

  The lever of power.

• 4:55Speaker 04

  It's the lever of power and John is doing it. If that makes you happy, John.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  I came in and sat in the chair that was at the spot I always sit in.

• 5:04Speaker 04

  That's always been in the third spot.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  I did not ask anybody to move the chairs around.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  I don't believe you.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  There may be people who are looking for promotions and extra bonuses who, who just did it for me.

• 5:16Pablo Torre?

  They just want to look up to you, John. That's all. They just want to look up to you.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  For anybody to do anything.

• 5:22Speaker 04

  Have you ever noticed when I sit, I'm, I'm never back. I sit back straight. I sit legs forward. I'm only using the top front part of a chair.

• 5:31Pablo Torre?

  You're on the top step of the chair.

• 5:32Speaker 04

  That's exactly how I do it. But I don't have to worry about hitting my head on anything overhead. Like I don't walk through a door worrying about hitting my head the way Skipper does. I just have to think about other stuff.

• 5:44Pablo Torre?

  You guys are so weird.

• 5:47Pablo Torre?

  I mean, I say that lovingly, but sincerely.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  That's weird.

• 5:55Pablo Torre?

  David has a beard today. Can we acknowledge that?

• 5:58Speaker 04

  It looks like you can't grow a beard. Like you just look messy.

• 6:02Pablo Torre?

  Well.

• 6:03Speaker 04

  There's all these patches that make it look like you've lasered in a weird spot.

• 6:07Pablo Torre?

  It's patchy. Um, I, you think this has a lasered manicured sort of.

• 6:13Speaker 04

  Well, it's smooth as a baby's tuchus right on the left and right of your chin.

• 6:18Pablo Torre?

  I can't grow here. These are barren. Um, but why? What's going on?

• 6:24Speaker 04

  I just like mixing it up sometimes.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  It's good. Looks good.

• 6:29Speaker 04

  Just my target demographic, John Skipper. Yes, it is full. It's a little more gray, but thank you. Compliments from Skipper.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Looks like a good sort of combination of shaggy and, and formatted.

• 6:43Pablo Torre?

  Can I, can I, can I just say that I don't buy it when David says, "I just felt like it." You do nothing.

• 6:49Speaker 04

  All right, here's the story.

• 6:50Pablo Torre?

  What's the story?

• 6:51Speaker 04

  I had, I had some precancer stuff on my face, so I had to have a procedure. And the procedure was causing a bit of dryness and also made my face look a little blotchy. So I shaved two days before the procedure, as I was supposed to, and I have not put a razor to my face since because everything is still healing.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  That's good investigative reporting.

• 7:13Pablo Torre?

  I mean...

• 7:13Speaker 02

  You stuck to it, you didn't accept...

• 7:16Pablo Torre?

  Bad content, good journalistic instinct.

• 7:21Pablo Torre?

  Um, but you're, you're okay. Can we declare this?

• 7:24Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 7:25Pablo Torre?

  Okay.

• 7:26Speaker 04

  I should have used sunscreen as a kid. I mean, that's the bottom line. And I tried to get my kids to do it, and no one wants to use sunscreen. I don't quite get that.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Well, was it an option when you were a kid? It was not an option for me when I was a kid. Nobody...

• 7:42Speaker 04

  Sunscreen had not been invented?

• 7:43Speaker 02

  I have no idea, but no one ever mentioned the word sunscreen in the first 15 years of my life.

• 7:49Speaker 04

  Is that a money thing? Are you making this a socioeconomic issue?

• 7:53Speaker 02

  I have no idea. I am...

• 7:55Speaker 04

  Sunscreen's a thing. I hope you put sunscreen on your daughter.

• 7:58Pablo Torre?

  Um, my mom is a dermatologist.

• 8:00Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 8:01Pablo Torre?

  I am shamed regularly for not using sunscreen. And she's gonna shame me when she listens to this.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Well, I don't think you need it in here.

• 8:08Speaker 04

  My dermatologist says I should wear it even when I'm not gonna be outdoors, that I should put it on.

• 8:12Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, yeah, sounds like my mom.

• 8:14Speaker 04

  No, it's a thing, it's a thing. And do I regret it? I try not to have any regrets, but when I'm getting things sliced off me and mows is happening in various places on my body, uh, which is sort of a technical thing that your mom will love. They were mentioning what mows is. Do you know what mows is?

• 8:29Pablo Torre?

  I don't know what mows is.

• 8:30Speaker 04

  Mows is when you have a can, you have cancer and they dig in and they keep digging...

• 8:34Pablo Torre?

  Oh, M-O-H-S.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:36Speaker 04

  What, as opposed to Doug Moe? Larry Moe and Curly?

• 8:56Pablo Torre?

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• 9:41Pablo Torre?

  With a beautiful design and cutting-edge performance, it helps you unlock more possibilities. It's the thinnest, lightest XPS laptop yet, with touchscreen, a backlit keyboard, and long-lasting battery life to power you through your day. Built with a durable aluminum chassis, weighing just 2.2 pounds, and Intel Core processors, it's fast, reliable, and portable enough to keep up wherever you go. Visit dell.com to explore the possibilities with XPS. While shopping, you'll also find great perks like Dell Rewards, fast free shipping, premium support, and financing with flexible payment options. Plus, you can find great deals on monitors and accessories. That means you can score a whole new setup now for less. This Black Friday sale is one you don't want to miss.

• 10:26Pablo Torre?

  Head to dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

• 10:35Pablo Torre?

  I'm pretty sure this won't shock anyone out there, but buying a car is just a hard process. You have to figure out what you want from thousands of options, then you have to find somewhere that's offering a good deal, then you get hit with unexpected fees. But let's just break it down, and think about how you'd describe your ideal car to a friend. You know, something like, good gas mileage, four-wheel drive, reliable, under 30 grand.

• 10:59Pablo Torre?

  Luckily, CarGurus makes it that easy. Just describe it to CarGurus the same way. With Guru, you search in your own words and you get listings, real listings, that match. No endless filters, just the car that fits your life. CarGurus also helps you shop with more transparent pricing, allowing you to see when dealer fees are included so you can compare listings with greater confidence. And with more than 4 million listings, CarGurus has the biggest selection of cars. So it's easier than ever to find the right car and the right deal. It is no wonder CarGurus is the number one most visited car shopping site, according to SimilarWeb's estimated traffic data. So buy or sell your next car today with CarGurus at cargurus.com.

• 11:44Pablo Torre?

  Go to cargurus.com to make sure your big deal is the best deal. That's C-A-R-G-U-R-U-S dot com. cargurus.com.

• 11:57Speaker 05

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• 12:28Pablo Torre?

  Now that we've touched on various traumas we all share, I would like to start with the NFL. Do you guys get sticker shock still when you get the news that, hey, guess what? The Bills Chiefs title game, AFC Championship, averaged 57.7 million viewers. Most-watched AFC Championship game dating back to at least 1988, up 4% from last year. But again, As we always say, fragmentation is what we are dealing with as a country, media consumption and otherwise. And the one thing drawing 60 million people are there about is this, John. And to you, what is registered?

• 13:09Speaker 02

  What is registered is that the NFL is the game of this country. It is the game in which our country mostly stops, where you notice it on the street, right? I live in a neighborhood not far from here, and I am shocked on a Sunday to see how many people living in New York City are wearing Buffalo Bills jerseys and Kansas City Chiefs jerseys. And I'm not shocked at Philadelphia Eagles jerseys because they're just sort of right down the turnpike. But Denver Broncos jerseys or Dallas Cowboys jerseys, it is America's sport. And most Americans stop for big games like this, and this is what their day is about.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  I see people out everywhere. My son, Clay, who doesn't, who pulls for the Jets. So he has no, should have no interest in the playoffs since they have not sniffed the playoffs. I think in something like 16 years. I could have that wrong. Fewer, it's fewer, nine, maybe. I can't remember.

• 14:14Pablo Torre?

  Somewhere between a decade and forever.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  But it is the longest current streak, I think, of not making the playoffs. But he still cares. And he still goes and sits with his friends in a bar or has them over to the apartment, and they watch the game.

• 14:28Pablo Torre?

  Does he gamble?

• 14:29Speaker 02

  He does not. I personally believe the suggestion that gambling has anything to do with these high numbers, I don't really believe it. I think it makes it more fun, but I don't think that that's why these numbers are high. I think it is an, it's an enthrallate sort of love of the game that, that is astonishing. And these guys have built strength upon strength upon strength.

• 15:00Pablo Torre?

  14 consecutive playoff list seasons for the Jets. David, when you get these numbers, are you still embittered?

• 15:10Speaker 04

  Yes, it's, it's, that's what I was focused on. The first thing I did on Nothing Personal was do the math with Coca. Then is it possible that one championship game drew more people than the entire World Series? And the answer is yes, and it is infuriating to me. And so I do a lot of explaining to myself. Like notes to myself of why it is to make it so I can get through the day. First one, there aren't a lot of games. So I start with that, that of course you're gonna have, there are more people, this was part of my PR. More people go to Marlins games than Dolphin games. More people in Florida go to Marlins games than Dolphin games. Of course, we play 10 times as many games, but don't quibble.

• 15:52Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Is that the official attendance or is that the actual attendance?

• 15:57Speaker 04

  It's actually both, but certainly what I made up is more than what the Dolphins draw. Two, when you look at the number of people who watch these football games. In theory, if we had in baseball, a winner take all game, always in the playoffs, which is what the NFL does. It would help our numbers, but owners didn't want to approve that.

• 16:15Pablo Torre?

  Right, single elimination.

• 16:16Speaker 04

  It's the greatest, it's the, it's the March basketball, March Madness situation. People are watching because they have brackets and because they gamble, but also because there's so much at stake for every game, and football is that on steroids.

• 16:27Pablo Torre?

  Well, you're talking about meaning, right? You're talking about how do you maximize stakes? How do you maximize what this means to people? And eventizing, you gotta watch it, or you're also, to John's point, not included. In an era where no one is included in anything broadly, feels like the thing that makes it unlikely for the NFL to succeed is the very reason why it has its own steroids when it comes to its success.

• 16:50Speaker 04

  But Sunday's also a family day, you know, baseball's every day of the week. Football, well, now football's every day of the week, but uh, Sunday historically, another thing I would say to myself is, oh, the family's just sitting around. They're hanging out, of course, they're just gonna turn on the game, or people go to a bar because it's a weekend and they're willing to get hammered early. Like a drinking brunch, so you watch football that way. So I could come up with a hundred reasons why football was better than baseball.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  But isn't it ultimately about?

• 17:15Speaker 02

  What the viewing experience is like on television. Cause we're not talking about 57.7 million people went to the game. We're talking about 57, that's the average minute. So it probably was 70 million people, which is one, you know, more than one out of every, that's close to one every five people in the country.

• 17:37Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  It's a great game to watch on television. It's easy. You can see everything almost. You don't have to.

• 17:46Pablo Torre?

  It's better on television.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. And by the way, you don't miss anything because the way the game works, a play happens and then before the next play happens, you get to see three, about three more views of that play. So if you've missed something, if you turned around the wrong way, if you weren't looking at the right part of the field, you don't miss anything. Basketball, you're going back and forth. You can't watch all 10 players. You can't see what everybody's doing. Baseball is slow and it's subtle game. I mean, these are all great games. I get accused of liking one more than the other. I like basketball more, but that doesn't mean I think it's a better television viewing experience than football.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  And by the way, you can leave and you don't miss anything. Uh, I actually think the fact that there is less action in a football game makes it better. It's a more social event. You sit around laughing and talking. If you sit around laughing and talking during a basketball game, somebody scored 12 points, uh, and gone from being behind by five to ahead by seven. Uh, you sort of have to pay attention and it's more, but I just think television works perfectly for football.

• 19:02Speaker 04

  You know, it's funny, there's businesses that are being started and I'm going to get the name wrong. I don't know if it's pronounced Cosm.

• 19:07Pablo Torre?

  Oh, it's the, the sphere like, uh, that arena.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  Because people don't want to be on their couch. They want to be in an environment like going to the game where you can celebrate with people and have that. It's why these stadiums, when the team is on the road, they open their home stadium and 40,000 people come to watch on the Jumbotron because of that feeling of being there.

• 19:29Pablo Torre?

  Yes, yes. And by the way, we tested that feeling during the pandemic. What's it like when no one's there? And everybody agreed at home in person.

• 19:36Speaker 04

  And the players.

• 19:37Pablo Torre?

  And even the players, especially the players, maybe. Everybody agreed that this collective. Human ecstatic experience was actually what makes sports special. My question, though, as also I laugh at the idea that the 44.2 million viewers for the Eagles blowing up the commanders was a relative disappointment. Right? I just wonder, when it comes to sports as a cultural and economic product,

• 20:02Pablo Torre?

  is there trickle down economics from the NFL booming even if other sports aren't quite to that degree? Does that, does it get, put it this way, is it good for baseball if the NFL is booming like this?

• 20:19Speaker 04

  No, because everything's by comparison. So it makes us look worse as an industry, but then we'll do the math on the media deal and say, all right, if they're getting five times our rate, what's the reason? Is it based on viewers? Is it based on somehow what the networks need to program? Because it certainly can't be based on the hours that baseball could provide because they can obviously provide more. So we never saw a trickle down. We never got to go to sponsors and say, look, the NFL has these numbers. So we're going to up our rate card. We just never could do that.

• 20:50Pablo Torre?

  It's interesting, John, like sports as a category. When we get into the respective incentives that are very different from baseball executive to football to basketball, it makes me wonder like, so what is sports actually then? We've created a category in which all these things are collected, but it feels like the company you were the president of ESPN is one of the main venues in which it actually might feel that way? You turn on the channel and it's all there, but otherwise it's all disparate.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  It is disparate, but yet it is sort of a common attraction, right? You, whether you are in the stadium with a bunch of people, or you're in your living room with a bunch of people, or you're in a bar with a bunch of people, it's a communal experience and it's more fun. I do sometimes watch games by myself. I don't find it not enjoyable, but it is a whole lot more fun to watch with other people. I don't know why. And there are not many of those activities. That we do anymore. We go to concerts a little bit. But for the most part, we do a lot of things solitary. I can go to the movies by myself. It's fine.

• 21:58Speaker 04

  I love a solo movie. Me too. I like watching games alone, actually, because I don't like being bothered. And that may, that comes from probably 18 years of watching games and being bothered all game, but I, I enjoy it. I watched the championship games and I was solo and I could do whatever I wanted. I could mute, mute it when I didn't want to listen to Brady. I could put it louder. I could stand up. I could pause it. If I wanted to go to the bathroom and not worry like I, I love the control of being alone.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  And is that for every sport? Cause I can understand for baseball where you understand more than most people do and you may not want to be.

• 22:35Speaker 04

  I don't enjoy watching sports or watching movies or watching award shows with other people. I'm shocked to hear that you like control. Well, I think it's important. I think that to control the viewing experience is something that we all talk about is how do we give the viewers more control with their bundle? More control with their camera views. And it turns out people don't actually like the level of control that they thought they would. I'm just a little different. I do like that level of control and I manifested, I find by being alone is the best way.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Are you the one person that picked his own camera angles?

• 23:05Speaker 04

  No.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Okay, so there actually is no person. The number of people who actually picked their own cam.

• 23:11Speaker 04

  Wait, wait, explain. Picking your own camera angles was something that was available. Remember when you could, there was a 3D time. You could get the glasses. There were different angles and you could decide how you wanted to watch the game. I don't want to be the director.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  Every sport and every network at some point has made the case that, oh, we're going to give you the opportunity to pick the camera you want. And to my knowledge, no one has yet picked a camera.

• 23:36Speaker 04

  It's so true. It's, it's funny in that, that, that is what they thought would be added value for the consumer. That's what all these increases in technology and improvements are is let's give the consumer what they want. Except consumers, at the end of the day, we all think they're so sophisticated in, in their desires.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  I'd say it a slightly more positive way. I think that the production of sports has become so spectacular.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  That I don't know why anybody would decide they could do better sitting at home toggling a couple of buttons. You don't miss anything in a game anymore. The, there's, you know, thirty cameras at a football game. The replays are spectacular, the slow motion, the effects. It's, it's a beautifully produced game. The games are beautifully produced. I always laugh when people thought, oh, 3D is gonna be great. It's like 3D, first of all, you ruin the, ruin the communal element. You put a goggles on. And second of all, it looks fake, even though it's supposed to look less fake.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Nothing looks better than the two dimensional, high definition, well-produced game. That's all you need to see. You don't miss anything. I sat one time on Sixth Street, which is that street in Palo Alto where all the high-tech companies are, and they made me put on goggles and I sat in a seat and they, LeBron James actually ran past me. And then somebody else ran past me. I'm like, I, I know he's not here, so why, why is this going to excite me that you can make it look like he's here?

• 25:20Pablo Torre?

  I do like the idea, though, of John being, again, John is, is, just like, they present the king with the new technologies. The court has presented, from, from an angle below him, the finest technology, and John is like, I know he's not here. At what point, they're just like, well, we're [BLEEP]. Like, this guy is not gonna play along with this very basic premise.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  I'll never forget being at the Walt Disney Company and they were trying to show us how great VR would be, virtual reality stuff would be, and they put us all on like this ledge. It looked very much like you were on the ledge, and then if you jumped off the ledge, you would go into an abyss.

• 26:05Pablo Torre?

  Yep.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  And they were gonna invite us to jump off the ledge, and I didn't even wait. I just jumped. I'm like, first of all, there's no way they're gonna put an executive at risk here for disappearing into an abyss and dying. So why would you give in to the idea that you were actually on a ledge?

• 26:25Pablo Torre?

  This is, this is a very revealing anecdote, I feel like.

• 26:30Speaker 04

  The question is, what percentage of people actually thought that they were sitting you on the abyss? Well, at one point, I think they wanted me to be on the abyss and jump.

• 26:48Pablo Torre?

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• 27:33Pablo Torre?

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• 28:14Pablo Torre?

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• 28:51Pablo Torre?

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• 29:35Pablo Torre?

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• 30:10Pablo Torre?

  I want to go back to the idea of inaction being good for the product. The Wall Street Journal, pretty famously in 2010, had a report, a study. Football games have 11 minutes of action.

• 30:21Speaker 04

  But what about baseball? And baseball games as well, there's a number of minutes of action. We would study this. It's all so overblown and I'd like John to probably...

• 30:31Speaker 02

  I've seen it as anything from sort of 11 to 16 minutes. I do think it probably is the greatest disparity between the amount of time that's on a clock. Baseball, of course, there is no clock. And the actual amount of time they're playing. The greatest being...

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Possibly my, one of my two favorite sports, which is soccer, where you are actually playing.

• 30:57Pablo Torre?

  Continuously.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  You're playing a hundred and five minutes in ninety minutes. And they actually, they actually care so much that you're playing, they're not really playing a hundred and five. But they, they theoretically.

• 31:09Speaker 04

  Counting extra time?

• 31:10Speaker 02

  What? That's extra time, extra time. So theoretically, in a forty-five minute half, if you don't play forty-five minutes, they add time to make sure you actually play forty-five minutes.

• 31:21Speaker 04

  Is there anything more random than the extra time called at the end of a half?

• 31:24Speaker 02

  It's become less random, you're right.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  Do they keep track of it?

• 31:27Speaker 02

  They, they have actually begun to keep more track of it. It still is somewhat inexact. And I still love the fact that they don't tell you, they say it's plus nine minutes, but then the clock does not reset. You have to put it on your watch and actually look at it. And then it's not nine minutes, it's seven minutes and fifty-five seconds, or it's not.

• 31:50Speaker 04

  Well, it goes forty-five to fifty-four. If it's nine in the first half, you just have to do the math.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  No.

• 31:55Speaker 04

  Is that not accurate?

• 31:56Speaker 02

  It would is accurate, except the forty-five is on the clock. And at forty-five, and they say, oh, we're gonna have six more minutes. The six more minutes does not appear anywhere publicly that anybody can see.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  Oh, I thought the forty-five winds up to fifty-one.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  No.

• 32:09Speaker 04

  So the forty-five stops at forty-five?

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Stops at forty-five.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  And no one's counting the extra time?

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Everybody's counting the extra time, but there is no public display of it.

• 32:19Speaker 04

  There is on TV?

• 32:21Speaker 02

  No, there's not.

• 32:22Speaker 04

  It's the scoreboard.

• 32:23Pablo Torre?

  Well, look, they'll say plus whatever, but in terms of the, there's no countdown timer.

• 32:28Speaker 04

  It's a count up.

• 32:29Pablo Torre?

  There's no count up timer, right? Like, it's not actually, a bell goes off, a human being has to declare time, which means that it's up to their interpretation of what.

• 32:39Speaker 04

  Which is crazy.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  I know, which is why you see the coach running down the sidelines, pointing at his watch going, you said six minutes, and we're now at six minutes and forty seconds.

• 32:47Speaker 04

  Well, I love that they let a play develop in soccer. Where in football, in other time sports, you don't can say, oh, wait, we're on a fast break. Like, yeah, the buzzer went off, but we're on a fast break.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  They'll play advantage, which is smart, smart concept.

• 33:01Pablo Torre?

  But the, the question of precision, and whether people are frustrated to the point where they stop watching, brings us to the controversy in this game, just to touch on this some amount, right? Like. Yeah, there was a fourth down call that was very controversial.

• 33:17Pablo Torre?

  That resulted in a turnover. Bill's giving the ball back to the Chiefs. Referees disagreeing on the field ultimately ruling in a way that was widely disputed, but you know, so it goes. The point being that this was a human judgment that was not technologically precise. And the question of can this controversy spark change? Like what happens in the aftermath of this, right? Everybody stops, people debate, and then behind the scenes, what happens?

• 33:47Speaker 04

  I want to quote Bud Selig here because anytime I can quote him, I love to do it in honor of Bud. And we would complain whenever we had a call go against us. And there's a head of baseball operations, on field operations. After Joe Torre was done with the Yankees, it was him for a while. Now it's Mike Hill. And you call in and sometimes you go all the way up to the commissioner when you get a call against you. An umpire's call against you, a block in the plate or a ball strike or an out. And Bud would say, all right, here's what we're going to do. We're going to keep track for you. And you'll find over 162 games, this was my first year or two in the league. He said, over 162 games, if we keep track of every call, it's going to be 50 50. 50% are going to go your way, 50% are not going to go your way. And you're only going to call me on the ones that don't go your way.

• 34:32Speaker 04

  But I receive a call on 100% of the calls. Because every call has one team that it doesn't go their way. So you have to understand that you calling me is not going to have any impact. So you can keep doing it. And this is when I was new to the game, keep doing it. But when a call goes for you, why aren't you calling me to thank me for that? And so we would keep track. We actually had someone who we would, I wanted to know the truth.

• 34:55Pablo Torre?

  We being the Marlins.

• 34:56Speaker 04

  We, the Marlins. And I started this with the Expos, actually, but we kept track because I wanted to know whether it was in my head. When the owner would call and say, how can we never get a runner in from third base with under two outs? But every time the other team does, they score. Because it feels that way when you're a fan. And I wanted to get the facts. And the fact of the matter is that it is true that

• 35:16Speaker 02

  It's 50 50.

• 35:17Speaker 04

  It's basically 50 50.

• 35:19Pablo Torre?

  So but that question of like, the reason people are furious at the Chiefs is because they are now in a dynastic moment, right? Maybe this is just, in fact, not a moment, but an era.

• 35:31Pablo Torre?

  And there is, John, this

• 35:32Speaker 02

  I think it would be hard to actually have a dynastic moment. By definition, it would not be a dynasty.

• 35:38Pablo Torre?

  It would be a long moment.

• 35:41Pablo Torre?

  Just trying to-

• 35:42Speaker 04

  A dynamic moment.

• 35:43Pablo Torre?

  Trying to-

• 35:44Speaker 04

  Maybe you had that. He's Harvard, so-

• 35:45Pablo Torre?

  Trying to make sure that no one would pay attention to that part of what I said, but nonetheless. The dynasty of the Chiefs being villainous, right? In this moment, they are supervillains. And in terms of whether that is bothersome to anybody, right? People who own the rights to these games, what does villainy feel like to you?

• 36:07Speaker 02

  Well, villainy's not a bad thing. I wanted to first ask, why is their dynasty villainous? Aren't all dynasties villainous? Simply because you're keeping every other team and their fans from winning? There's- what's villainous about-

• 36:21Speaker 04

  Astros, Patriots, Chiefs-

• 36:23Pablo Torre?

  Well, I think to segue from-

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Well, that's different.

• 36:26Pablo Torre?

  The previous topic-

• 36:26Speaker 02

  Their dynasty wasn't villainous. They may have had some villainous actions.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  I think that's the same. You think the whole Chiefs dynasty is villainous?

• 36:33Pablo Torre?

  Well, what's happening now is that people believe, again broadly speaking, there is a feeling that people think the Chiefs are getting calls that other teams do not. This is the psychology that we just discussed. And so there's this feeling that, as I see it, it feels like a billionaire is getting tax cuts. Why are they getting breaks? Why are we favoring them? Why do they get even more advantages that are unfair? And it raises this question of like, what are the consequences or repercussions to having a villainous team with these allegations of favoritism from the refs on the actual product?

• 37:13Speaker 04

  You know, if the NFL were scripting this, let me just say, there's so much confusion right now in the media and in the fans. The NFL would want the Cowboys in the NFC Championship every year. They'd like them to play the Giants every year if that would be possible. The NBA would like the Knicks to be in the NBA Finals. That would be terrific. And baseball would like the Dodgers and the Yankees to be in every single year and strictly not have the Yankees in it for the first time last year since '09. So all of this talk that everything's scripted and this is what the NFL plans, it's not exactly accurate. Are there calls that in theory have gone the Chiefs' way? Yeah, but there's plenty of calls. The Bills didn't lose because of the fourth down call. They didn't lose because of the incomplete pass that was ruled. Was it ruled an interception, Koka? When the ball was on the ground or was that a reception?

• 37:59Speaker 04

  And it was gonna be an interception with Bills-Chiefs?

• 38:01Pablo Torre?

  That was a reception that was-

• 38:02Speaker 04

  A reception that should have been an interception? I just don't, I don't think that that level of conspiracy exists. And in terms of the hatred of Kansas City, I view hatred, A, as jealousy and I view it as great currency. I want people to hate me, I want people to love me, I just want people to care. And that's always been the view.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  What is villainous? Isn't Patrick Mahomes a pretty likeable guy? Isn't, um, the Kelseys appear to be pretty likeable? A lot of people listen to them on the radio.

• 38:32Pablo Torre?

  Sure, on podcasts.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Taylor Swift is a very popular entertainer. Uh, they, they.

• 38:38Speaker 04

  Number one ever.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  And you're in Kansas City, which is not particularly controversial. It's not like people dislike the dominance of New York or Los Angeles, or they don't happen to like, for whatever reason, some other city. What's the dislike?

• 38:55Pablo Torre?

  But I believe the dislike is, they are winning everything. We are getting force fed them as a function of them being really good every year. And now it seems like they are getting preferential treatment. And so I, I bring this up in comparison, let's say, to the Golden State Warriors. The Golden State Warriors in the NBA, right? They were very likeable, arguably, but at the same time, um, they were so good that people began to resent them.

• 39:22Speaker 04

  Doesn't that happen with everyone? Everyone who's likeable or successful has enemies because they want to bring them down a notch.

• 39:28Pablo Torre?

  It makes sense that David Samson is objecting to the premise of a villain and what that really means, because doesn't that just mean that you are good enough to be cared about? But I am asking about this in the premise, in the context of, you want villains.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  Villains are good. Good for ratings, good for business.

• 39:43Speaker 04

  Good for movies, good for stories, good for books, good for life. You have to have people playing different parts.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Bad for neighbors.

• 39:50Speaker 04

  Unless, that's a funny way to think about it. But yeah, I, I'm always, when you're casting something, you, we always say, oh, that's central casting for a villain or central casting for a hero. There's always been that in every sort of story, both fiction and nonfiction, and sports is the same. I never objected to a team being a villain or to a player being a villain. I didn't want a dirty player. That's very different. Dirty versus villainous. And I, and in terms of the worth of the broadcast, in terms of interest.

• 40:21Pablo Torre?

  Talk about Goliath, right? Like Goliath, people don't root unless you're.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  Well, Goliath's lost. In fact, I think he's 0-1.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  I'm pretty sure.

• 40:31Speaker 04

  For one decision?

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Oh, and one. As far as we know, there's only one fight and he lost.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  I don't think you can be Goliath without having won previous fights. I think the one we remember is David, but I would assume he was the undefeated heavyweight champion of the world at the time. That's how I always pictured it.

• 40:45Pablo Torre?

  And I know he lost to that kid with fucking slingshots.

• 40:47Speaker 04

  Right, but that's, that's the one you remember because that's the, that's Buster Douglas. Is that a reference that no one knows?

• 40:53Speaker 02

  I'm pretty sure there is no record of any other fight. I would not disagree with you that might potentially, uh...

• 41:00Speaker 04

  Think he picked the one fight of his life happened to be the one that's remembered.

• 41:04Pablo Torre?

  Wait, can we do a first take episode about David versus Goliath? Can we continue to do this?

• 41:10Speaker 04

  You can't certainly believe.

• 41:11Pablo Torre?

  Goliath, overrated.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Well, since what I actually believe is it's just a story that you made up. It's not any different than that scene in Troy where this big mohawk comes out and, uh, and Brad Pitt runs, runs up and smites him in three seconds. It's just a story.

• 41:34Pablo Torre?

  I'm sorry, just mohawk though?

• 41:36Speaker 04

  And smite?

• 41:36Pablo Torre?

  Gone moes to mohawk? Mohawk?

• 41:40Speaker 04

  I've never heard the word mohawk, but I just assumed it was a Carolina thing. I was gonna let it go.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 41:45Speaker 04

  Normally you type when you don't understand a word. Like I noticed when I said moes, I believe you were typing to confirm, thinking that I got it wrong. But how come when Skipper says mohawk, you don't, your fingers aren't walking?

• 41:57Pablo Torre?

  Because I...

• 41:59Speaker 02

  It's, it's just an honorable poetic word, sort of meaning a big hunk. He's a mohawk. I might have made it up even.

• 42:07Speaker 04

  That is not a word.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  No, no, it's, you can make up a word.

• 42:10Speaker 04

  No. I'm quite a guess.

• 42:12Pablo Torre?

  I thought it was a galoot. It was like in the galoot coaching.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  He's in the galoot family, I think. I think the galoots and the mohawks were like the Hatfields and McCoys.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  I'm upset with all the Chiefs hate. I really am.

• 42:25Pablo Torre?

  You resent the resentment?

• 42:27Speaker 04

  I do. I, I, I think that we all wanna be, we all wish it were our team. Uh, it's like Bulls fans. Bulls fans in the nineties recognized how fortunate they were. They had gone through the Pistons and now Jordan was winning six titles in eight years. And we all hated them. They were villains because they kept winning, but it's jealousy. Villainy. People are just jealous.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  I'm not sure it's any more complicated than if a team wins consistently, it means every other team is not winning. And I have to say, I'm mad every year when my team does not win at the team that does win.

• 43:17Pablo Torre?

  I wanna pivot us to a noted villain in this way. Um, because Tom Brady happens to be a fascinating character in this milieu. So Tom Brady is calling the Super Bowl for Fox. He's getting paid thirty million dollars a year. We can talk about the scouting report on him as an, as a broadcaster versus as a player.

• 43:35Speaker 04

  I believe it's thirty seven point five.

• 43:37Pablo Torre?

  Thirty seven point five.

• 43:38Speaker 04

  Is it not to be seventy five over ten?

• 43:40Pablo Torre?

  He is also now officially a minority owner of the Las Vegas Raiders. And every bit of reporting that we are seeing is indicating that he is not only a minority owner, he is the leading football voice. And Mark Davis himself, the owner of the team, the majority owner, has said that he has essentially replaced John Gruden as that, as that foremost influence in the building. Making decisions on hires, interviewing people and all of that. And I just don't know of a precedent for this.

• 44:11Speaker 04

  Well, if you're a Raiders fan, you gotta be upset to hear that. Because if you want someone running your team and your organization, that's a full-time job. And there's no question about it. To be good at running a football operation or a business operation, it can be your only job. And in order to be the number one analyst for a network in football, that's gotta be your full-time job during the season. It takes a week to prepare for a game. It, it requires an unbelievable amount of preparation. And I don't see how Tom Brady can do both. And that's been my position on Nothing Personal. It continues to be my position. Has there been a more awkward on-screen moment than the game that Burkhard and Brady did? Where before the game, Burkhart set up Brady to say, oh, I'm gonna be here.

• 44:56Speaker 04

  You're stuck with me, partner. I'm not leaving. It was so manufactured that it was obviously not believable to me. And if I'm Mark Davis, I will not allow Tom Brady to continue at Fox because I want his full attention. And if I'm the Fox, I will not allow Tom Brady to run the Raiders because I need his faux attention.

• 45:15Pablo Torre?

  John, does it bother you as this hypothetical sports television executive that Tom Brady is not nearly as good as the guy he replaced, Greg Olson?

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Does it bother me? It bothers me that these salaries are that high for a position that makes no financial difference in the game. I don't believe that 53 million people would have watched instead of 57 million people if Tom Brady wasn't in the booth. I don't know if he was in the booth for that game, but...

• 45:47Speaker 04

  He was not. He was in the booth for the lower game in the NFC.

• 45:51Pablo Torre?

  Embarrassing 44 million.

• 45:52Speaker 04

  Embarrassing, outrageous, which by the way, proves the point.

• 45:55Pablo Torre?

  But 37.5 a year to confirm that.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  No, so, does it bother me? I do believe there's a conflict and the conflict should probably be resolved. I don't know why he's allowed to continue to have that conflict. And he probably brings more value, though I doubt Mark Davis is gonna pay him 37 and a half million dollars, though his stake in the team may be well worth more than that. He should make a decision about which one he wants to do.

• 46:26Speaker 04

  So, here's what I've been thinking about, all the alt-casts that are happening. And I was thinking about John and getting his budget shown to him as he's looking at his P and L. And he knows what he paid out in rights to, let's just take football. And he knows what he's paying the announcers, Joe Buck and Troy Aikman, which is an unbelievable amount for each of them, and they're great. And then he gets presented with, you know what? We're gonna bring in the Mannings. We're gonna put that on a different channel for an alt-cast. And then we're gonna do another one where it's gonna be for kids. You will not have heard of anyone, but there's slime and various things involved. And you're gonna look and say, wait a minute. That's an extra 8 million dollars per product for production? What are we doing here? So is it progress? All the alt-casts?

• 47:09Speaker 04

  That's what I'm having a hard time understanding, that we're trying to attract different demographics. So we're doing it with all these alt-casts? But we're just increasing the expense? When it turns out that maybe people don't care.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Somebody should do the real test. And that is to have the Manning cast be the only cast.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  I mean, what, do we think?

• 47:30Pablo Torre?

  You mean, take the game off linear and see how they?

• 47:32Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 47:32Speaker 04

  No, just take the announcers away and have it just be them? That's all you can do?

• 47:36Speaker 02

  The Manning cast is all linear. What would happen if on a Monday night football broadcast? Your only choice was to cut on and watch the Mannings? Do we believe more or less people would tune in?

• 47:49Pablo Torre?

  I believe that roughly the same amount of people would be watching.

• 47:52Speaker 04

  So then, why would you increase your expenses? If you're not getting incremental revenue benefit for it? Why are you increasing your expenses? To make it look like progress?

• 48:00Pablo Torre?

  Well, what Fox seems to be doing with Tom Brady specifically is using him as this ambassador for their corporation. He is on stage. He is a, he is seemingly a marketing device. And 37.5 a year for 10 years for, again, a perhaps villainous, but certainly wildly famous and accomplished person. Like, that seems to be part of the math that they're doing too.

• 48:27Speaker 04

  To me, it was an ambassador deal that enables you to draw from different budgets. So I would, I would bet you that you would not want on your P and L 37 and a half million for Tom Brady as your play-by-play guy. I would imagine that you're happy to take money from the corporate side for him to go to investor events. And so that's worth an amount of money and so you split up his salary.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  I don't think that's a big factor. I'd like to go back to and, and put everybody on the spot. I watched several Monday night football broadcasts this year. Almost all of them with my son Clay. And we chose the Manning cast every time. And we did not miss the old school, hey, so-and-so turns around, he hands the ball off, he goes for three yards, second, seven.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  I don't miss it at all. I would prefer that people would get more experimental and get more interesting. All they're doing is continuing to do radio on television. They're calling a game as though I can't see what's going on. The Manning Cast is entertaining in itself. I don't find it. Have you watched the Manning Cast for a full game?

• 49:39Speaker 04

  I've sampled it, but I've not watched it for a full game.

• 49:41Pablo Torre?

  I've watched a lot of it. And it does feel like more of a digital podcast product, where you're not relying on the announcers to tell you what's happening because you're just watching it. And also want to be entertained by your parasocial friend, Eli Invade Manning, who's going to entertain you by talking to their friends.

• 49:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, I view it as that, that you're not a fan of either of the teams and you just want to hear what these guys have to say. But what's very popular now are these watch parties, Metal Art does them, where you're watching somebody watch the game, or you're doing a touchscreen experience.

• 50:11Pablo Torre?

  Which is fundamentally what a Manning Cast is, is that. By the way, John did put his money where his mouth was when you were running the company, famously putting Tony Kornheiser into the booth, trying, and I love, love, love, love Tony. But this was an experiment, of course.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  It was an experiment, and I have to say, in retrospect, my attempt to do so was undermined, not popular, not accepted. And the people who were in charge of the production and the other people in the booth made sure it didn't work.

• 50:44Speaker 04

  Do you have any recollection of your P and L? Excuse me. Do you have any recollection of your P and L? Did you have Kornheiser on with no concomitant expense? Or did you have to take part of his already existing salary and put it into yours?

• 50:57Pablo Torre?

  What a highly specific curiosity.

• 50:59Speaker 04

  Well, I'm obsessed with this because I love the way big companies allocate talent.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Well, we didn't really do it that way. We paid Tony Kornheiser to do PTI. And when we asked him to be on Monday Night Football, we negotiated an additional fee.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  To have him on, but all he was doing, and that fee was allocated to Monday Night Football, and the fee for PTI was PTI.

• 51:28Speaker 04

  So it was an extra fee. So that's the answer is that he didn't just, you didn't just put him on it.

• 51:32Pablo Torre?

  Well, he was doing more. He was doing, he was doing more.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  We did have the concept that we can ask you to do other things and we're not going to pay you more. Uh, and we built in, we were notorious for building in, you're going to be a college football analyst, but you're also going to appear on College Football Weekly.

• 51:51Pablo Torre?

  This is what Charles Barkley says. They're going to put me on Deportes. You know, they're going to have me calling games in Spanish next.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  It was true. We, uh, nobody worked harder than the people who worked at ESPN. I was always amused, and I am still kind of amused with your time about how hard it is to only have a week to prepare for a game. A game that you spent your whole life either playing or announcing. It doesn't seem that hard to me. And, and, uh...

• 52:22Speaker 04

  That's so sad that your view is that because you're in charge of hiring and sort of establishing value for the people who are doing this. That's like saying, you know, Dan doing four hours of content a day, five days a week is not hard. It's hard.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  I didn't say it wasn't hard.

• 52:35Speaker 04

  Pablo, three times a week, the guy can barely sleep.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  You were talking about how difficult it is that a person who is one of three people in a booth must spend, what, 14, 16 hours a day for the other six days? I do think anybody does that. My experience with the people who are doing that is they were very conscientious about preparing, but that they weren't getting up at the crack of dawn and working till midnight to make sure they understood what? What is the great complication? I was always...

• 53:12Speaker 04

  When you're watching the games with your son, do you, can you name every player on the team?

• 53:15Pablo Torre?

  I want to bring this back to Tom Brady though.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  If I studied for six hours, I could name every player on the team, yes.

• 53:20Pablo Torre?

  But one of the comic aspects of the Tom Brady story is that here is a guy who is faster and better at processing on the fly, in live fire situations, what was happening with all 22 players on a football field. And he is struggling... In the booth to articulate that. And so whatever is necessary to be great at this, he is not that, despite having all of that processing power. And I want to bring it back to what Mark Davis has said about Tom Brady, his minority owner with the Raiders. On December 22nd, which was, quote, "When Tom was hired, I promised to Fox that we would not get in the way of Tom's job." And he's going to be one of the best announcers in the game. Anything he does with the Raiders will be in the future, as far as that goes. This is again, December. "I talked to him all the time. His input is greatly valued. Always will be valued.

• 54:05Pablo Torre?

  We'll see as time goes on how his role evolves in here, but he's very excited about it. We're respecting his obligations to Fox." That was Mark Davis. Which also speaks to me. It seems to indicate a level of treatment that also it's Tom leaping Brady. Like, we are treating him differently because of what he has historically achieved.

• 54:26Speaker 04

  Mark Davis was lying, obviously, because it was two weeks later that Tom Brady was doing the interviews for head coach. So I'm not, and right during the playoffs while Tom was calling playoff games. So I'm not sure, are you giving that quote because you believed Mark Davis? That that, he was showing that sort of respect and deference? I think he was just lying.

• 54:45Pablo Torre?

  It seems like Tom Brady is getting to do everything that Tom Brady wants. And everybody is saying stuff to enable that. And he's getting to do two jobs that no one has done simultaneously before in sports. And he's not necessarily good at either of them.

• 55:00Speaker 04

  Well, we don't know about as running the Raiders yet. I mean, it's too early. Are you judging him on his running the Raiders football team yet?

• 55:07Pablo Torre?

  I am skeptical of why he is the person running that team.

• 55:10Speaker 04

  And are you judging him as a broadcaster? I think, you know, we're giving him a lot of hate. He's been doing it a year.

• 55:15Pablo Torre?

  I was wrong. I said, I said immediately that Brady's skills as a quarterback would transfer. You'd want that guy in the booth. And Boog Chambi criticized this take, and Boog was right.

• 55:25Speaker 04

  Boog was right on it's hard for good players.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  It is a separate set of skills. People do actually go to school and spend four years sort of learning how to do it and having actually seen it and I don't want to to let my previous remarks not make it sound like I respected what they understood how to do. They understood when to come in and when not to come in. They there's a big truck, right? Full of people and they're talking about putting graphics on and doing replays and the people have to understand how to work within that team. It has very, very little to do to what you do when you take the snap from center. You drop back three or four steps and see the field.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  That even if you did that better than anybody, you still don't know how to articulate that. You don't know how to when to do it, how to interact with the other people who are helping you do that.

• 56:23Pablo Torre?

  But to bolster the point you were trying to make before, it is funny to speak of a baseball announcer like Boog who calls a zillion games a year.

• 56:33Speaker 04

  One sixty-two.

• 56:34Pablo Torre?

  But ten times as many as a national weekly announcer to the point of like, how can you possibly do more than one job in the week? Well, in baseball, they they actually do that all the time.

• 56:46Speaker 04

  Is there anything harder than being a solo radio announcer? The way Vince Scully.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  I would argue.

• 56:52Speaker 04

  Doing baseball.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Well, Vince Scully is a unique talent and I would make the argument that nobody before or since has called the game with the sort of level of eloquence, insight and not spending almost any of his time on the pedestrian things that happen. Oh, they popped the ball up high, so and so is sitting underneath it and has gathered it in. I don't think Vince spent a lot of time doing that. Vince would talk about.

• 57:24Speaker 04

  Fifteen minutes of it. So it's the same, the action. So of course you're describing the action as it happens, but we know, like you're saying that the football announcer shouldn't say second and seven handoff. They do do that, but that's only about sixteen minutes of a three and a half hour broadcast. So the skill, one thing that I don't know if the the result of this will be is John criticizing or thinking that broadcasters are not worth anything. The fact is, and I want to reiterate what he said. There's people in your ear all the time talking. You've got, it's like a concert that's happening and there's everyone playing a different instrument to make it sound good.

• 57:58Pablo Torre?

  Yes. It is really hard to, uh, to do that job. Not everybody can just wake up, roll out of bed and eloquently wax poetic about Mohawks. That is a hard thing for anybody to aspire to.

• 58:13Speaker 04

  Mohunks?

• 58:13Pablo Torre?

  Mohunks.

• 58:14Speaker 04

  Not Mohawks.

• 58:15Pablo Torre?

  Mohawks, I'm, I'm sorry.

• 58:17Speaker 04

  He said Mohunk.

• 58:18Pablo Torre?

  Did I?

• 58:18Speaker 04

  Maybe I'm wrong.

• 58:19Pablo Torre?

  Did I misquote the fake word that John invented?

• 58:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, he said Mohunk.

• 58:23Pablo Torre?

  Mohunk.

• 58:24Speaker 04

  Mohawk is the hairstyle.

• 58:26Pablo Torre?

  I said Mohunk.

• 58:27Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  Well, Mohawk is actually an Anglo-sized version of a native, uh, name of a native tribe.

• 58:39Speaker 04

  It's a punk hairstyle from the A's.

• 58:43Pablo Torre?

  Agree to agree.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  It was that also.

• 58:45Speaker 04

  Thank you, Pablo.

• 58:46Pablo Torre?

  Thank you, David.

• 58:47Speaker 04

  Thank you, John.

• 59:00Pablo Torre?

  Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Avaroma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Rachel Miller Howard, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tumanello, and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems, our sound design by NGW Post, our theme song as always is by John Bravo. We will talk to you next time.

• 59:41Speaker 05

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