Pod Insights Pablo Torre Finds Out Share & Tell & Somethingburgers with Domonique Foxworth and David Samson About this episode What does Pablo's release of the secret NFL collusion report say about labor rights in America? Can workers ever trust the humans of the management class? And what are the nuclear buttons available to both sides? Plus: priority stacks, a plethora of panoplies, the case for a somethingburger... and The Menudo Effect.
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2:15 Speaker 03 I learned that Pablo is a lot like Roger Goodell.
2:18 Pablo Torre? Oh, wow. Whoa. Right after this ad.
2:29 Pablo Torre? Are we rolling? We are, very good.
2:33 Speaker 03 So, do I log my complaints now, or on air?
2:37 Pablo Torre? Are they about me, or are they about David?
2:40 Speaker 03 No, they're about you. They're about you.
2:41 Pablo Torre? We can do them later. We can do those later. We don't have to do this here, you know?
2:47 Pablo Torre? Why are you looking? Why is David looking around confused? You're looking, oh, you want to see Dominique? Can we see Dominique?
2:54 Speaker 03 Who doesn't?
2:55 Speaker 04 You sound disconsolate.
2:58 Pablo Torre? There he is. Disconsolate? Why is Dominique disconsolate?
3:02 Speaker 04 I don't know, he just sounds a little down. He sounds as though he knows he's walking into a show where you're the central figure yet again.
3:09 Pablo Torre? Oh, you think that's Dominique's concern?
3:11 Speaker 03 Nah, my concern is that I'm the central figure and that Pablo set me up, but that's fine.
3:18 Speaker 04 I'm just excited to be here with Dominique because Pablo didn't set up Dominique. He told you exactly what the show was. A setup is when you just come on thinking-
3:27 Pablo Torre? There's a little je ne sais quoi. You know?
3:30 Speaker 03 Would you like me to explain the setup? See, this is, this is one of the reasons why David is a wonderful person to be around. Is because he doesn't believe that he needs any more information than information he already has. Like, you don't know this process and how I could feel set up.
3:48 Speaker 04 I'm always looking for data points. Tell me what Pablo did. I thought, see, if there's side beef going on that I don't know about, then I don't know. But there was a group chat that was me, you, and Dominique preparing for today. If you're doing stuff on the side, how can I comment on that?
4:04 Speaker 03 Oh, no, no, the group chat was, had been going on for a while. And this date had been marked for a while. Pablo did an extensive expose and uncovered secret documents about an organization that's very near and dear to my heart. He asked me to involve myself in that broadcast, and I said no. But Pablo strategically released that show. The day before, he was going to have me on his show. So, I mean, it's, I guess I could have been like, no, I'm not coming on your show now. But I guess that's on me. So, I guess that's how you would argue that it's not a setup. I think it's a setup, but I walked into it willingly, I guess.
4:47 Pablo Torre? Just a little menage a trois?
4:49 Speaker 04 I think that if you did plan it that way, then a tip of the chapeau to you. Because you could get Dominique on your show at any time.
4:58 Pablo Torre? So the reason I love our group chat, beyond the fact that all of us text extraordinarily differently from each other.
5:05 Speaker 04 That is very true.
5:07 Pablo Torre? I would say that the three of us are like as far away from each other as possible when it comes to how we text. Because Dominique texts no more than three words at a time.
5:16 Speaker 04 And not very promptly.
5:17 Pablo Torre? And terribly annoyingly in terms of responsiveness. David is immediately waiting to text something at all times, it seems. But the reason I love the group chat is for that reason. And that reason, I think, bleeds into the shows we do. We're all very different, but your points of view are incredibly valuable. So I just need to recap for the audience that missed Tuesday's episode, which is, I think, just one of the most important and most interesting episodes, frankly, we've done in the young history of Pablo Torre Finds Out. Because it is about a collusion grievance brought by the NFLPA against the NFL that resulted in a 61-page document that neither side, it turns out, the league or the union,
6:02 Pablo Torre? wanted anyone else to see. Unfortunately, I am pathologically obsessed with finding out the thing you don't want me to find out. And so I got the document, had Mike Florio on as the guest. We dissected it, we did a whole examination, a reveal about why it is that neither side wanted anyone to see it and also what they were trying to hide. And in this, we got to private emails, messages, texts, presentations, slides, secret meetings, all of that stuff. And hanging in the balance, for those who are just maybe bored by the legalese of this, just happens to be the most popular sport in America, as well as some of the most famous and important people in sports generally. And also the way that America basically is currently thinking
6:47 Pablo Torre? about labor and management in general. So I'm very glad that you two specifically, Dominique Locksworth, David Sampson, are sitting with me here now.
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8:47 Speaker 04 When I listened to the show earlier this week, what I recall thinking to myself is, they're not exactly diving deep enough into the existence of pseudo collusion within all leagues during all owners' meetings, and the fact that the union is culpable in many regards in that they don't allow their players, for the most part, to sign bad deals. Because it sets a bad precedent, and so they get involved at the The upper level with deals, just like Major League Baseball does. That was one that I want to address.
9:19 Pablo Torre? Well, in that one is like a dozen things that I want to object to. But just to clarify.
9:23 Speaker 04 I object.
9:25 Pablo Torre? Well, to clarify, David Samson, former president of the Marlins, who worked hand in hand with the owner of the team, Domonique Foxworth, of course, former president of the NFLPA, who was a candidate for the executive director job that went to one of the characters in the story. Lloyd Howell, who is the current ED of the union. That's the backdrop. What you have just laid out, though, is one big thing. You want to give another big thing before we respond to that?
9:50 Speaker 04 Well, part of my concern with today's show is I don't know where Dominique will enter into the fray of things. So I was going to give a panoply of things to give him optionality in case he doesn't want to just be an audience member.
10:07 Speaker 03 Panoply at that, man, panoply away. Like, I, I, I think so. Pablo pointed out that I was a candidate for the job. And not only that, like, this is the only, I worked at the basketball union also. Like, sports unions is kind of the only thing professionally that I've ever really actually, like, genuinely cared about outside of my own professional football career. And it means a lot to me to not undercut the union at, at any point. When I left office, I was very quiet about any disagreements or any things, any issues that were going on because I didn't find it to be a proper thing to do. And I, I just didn't want, and Pablo's report had things in there
10:52 Speaker 03 that were very challenging to the current administration of the union. And when I was a president, it's very difficult to deal with those outside challenges. So I, at no point wanted to put myself, particularly because I was a candidate job, in a position where it was viewed that anybody, because you know solidarity is all the union has, really, as far as strength is concerned. And so, like, it's infuriating to me that anyone who had been a part of the union to, like, publicly take shots at the union. So that was my issue with being involved in, in that episode is I didn't want to be put in a position where I, I felt like I was defending something I didn't understand or weakening the union.
11:37 Pablo Torre? But this is why I love the three of us in the room. It's the journalists, it's the former union president, it's the former team president, and David has a panoply. You have a panoply.
11:46 Speaker 04 I do.
11:46 Pablo Torre? You've called it pseudo collusion, I'm gonna let that sit. You've said we didn't dive deep enough, despite it being 63 minutes.
11:52 Speaker 04 Yeah, it was 63 minutes.
11:53 Pablo Torre? So, what the [bleep] else is in your panoply?
11:55 Speaker 04 I just wanted to point out that what happens inside the league with the management council that you say was only invented for the purposes of collusion. Well, you drew an inference that why else would there be a management council?
12:12 Pablo Torre? That part of doesn't the existence of this, as Mike Florio put it, feel collusive, Dominique, is a point that was raised. Like, it's this shadowy entity that's job is to direct the teams from a-
12:22 Speaker 04 That's not their only job.
12:23 Pablo Torre? Well, I would say that their job is to, Dominique, you can jump in here.
12:28 Speaker 03 Oh, no, I just, first of all, I think it's interesting that of all the words that he could choose, he could choose a word like "panoply," which is so, so close to monopoly.
12:38 Speaker 03 It feels like you could've said "plethora."
12:41 Speaker 04 That's like saying that ass is close to glass.
12:46 Speaker 03 Ain't it?
12:49 Speaker 03 Monopoly doesn't rhyme with much, you picked the only one that rhymes with monopoly. Anyway, I was just making a joke. Like, I think the management council exists for a number of reasons. It's the same, it's essentially the opposite of the executive committee of the union. Like, I get the point of the management council. I think the point that Pablo is making about they do exist as a body to help guide the entire group, I don't think you would disagree with that. And I think that's in itself is why Pablo would say that it does lead to the potential of collusive behavior.
13:22 Speaker 04 I just think that, I thought he made it too small. They do exist, the executive council in Major League Baseball, they exist as a representation of the 30 owners. They're the ones who, when you are doing a transaction, a media transaction, or a sale, a purchase agreement, anything, it has to get passed by a vote of the executive council. Then the executive council brings it to the full ownership for a vote, and it's the owners who have to vote 23 to 7 or greater for anything to happen. But one of the things you do is listen to what the executive council said. But the union's a great example in baseball. The executive committee of baseball's union voted no on the last CBA.
14:04 Speaker 04 And yet it passed because the player reps or the owners, the other owners on the executive council, the player reps voted for it. And so we had a CBA in baseball. So it doesn't always follow that whatever the management council does, the owners do.
14:19 Pablo Torre? The, go ahead.
14:20 Speaker 03 So the example that you use, I mean, the example that he used was of the union body diverging from the advice of the executive committee, not an example of the league as a body diverging from the management council.
14:35 Speaker 04 No, I agree. I was telling you that there, it's meant to show, I'm trying to think of in my career, did we ever go against the executive council?
14:42 Pablo Torre? That'd be a good question. That'd be a good question to ask.
14:45 Speaker 04 It's a good question where there to be a journalist here. And I, and I would say that no, that when the executive council voted in favor of something, um, we voted, actually, I got it. No, not true. We voted against contraction when the executive council told us to vote for a contraction because we were being contracted.
15:02 Pablo Torre? Explain why that might be a, okay.
15:07 Speaker 03 All right. All right. So we're gonna, we're gonna fire through these pretty quickly. That first, um, issue in the Panoply, I believe, if we can close now, I don't think that David made the case that he was hoping to make. And I think through a series of very straightforward questions, we, uh, we slapped that one down. What's next, Panoply man?
15:28 Speaker 04 Well, I would say the second one is that when you are the union to not acknowledge that you also get involved in what players do in terms of signing deals. And it's the opposite yet equivalent, like two ends of a horseshoe of what the commissioner's office does with its owners and baseball people in terms of contracts.
15:49 Speaker 03 So the context matters and trying to make the equivalent of the union and the ownership is very different. Like labor is not the same as management. So I get the point that you're making is you're not essentially, essentially you're not defending anything that's happening. You're saying, but they do it too. And I would say, yes, they do it too, but they do it from a different position and for a different reasons. So.
16:15 Speaker 04 Wait, what's the different reason, Dominique? It's the same reason. We don't want other teams to set a precedent that we then could suffer from. And that's the same with the union because I've spoken to players about it. Hey, I'd love to settle this arbitration case, but they're not letting me because as a three plus pitcher, first time eligible, if I settle below blank 3.6, then all of a sudden I'm screwing 10 other of my of my brethren.
16:39 Speaker 03 I would say that each individual case there are issued. There are situations where the management council is completely fine. And then there are situations where the things that they do, I think, are a concerning use of power and leverage. And I think that a strong union is good for the sport. And with the equal power in the fans and equal power in the media and equal power in the league. What makes it challenging is when the power dynamics are not equal. And that's, I think, where the context matters to me. The the union having participate in some degree and the negotiations of players is a lot different.
17:22 Speaker 03 Because of the power dynamics, then it would be for the league to to gather and make certain decisions. That's all.
17:29 Pablo Torre? Well, it's also, I just note that David, I I think this is. This is telling, but also understandable. You referred to it, the plural there actually was brethren, right? And so there is this question of, wait a minute, are you brothers or are you competitors? And is there a difference when you are the people who are paying the employees versus the employees? Right? And so everything about this story is about what the market value of a player is. Is it guaranteed contracts? Is it partially guaranteed? How much money are these deals worth? And what this whole document, the 61 page document reveals is that there is, as I say in the show,
18:11 Pablo Torre? there is a remarkable solidarity among owners that the players simply do not have for lots of reasons that Dominique, the union president, of course, had to try and overcome, which involve different economic strata, which involve career length, which involve attention span, which involve frankly, financial.
18:32 Speaker 04 Chess strategy that the owners swim in all of the time.
18:37 Speaker 03 I've written about this. I'm sure you've read it multiple times, but I would also throw into it that the career lifecycle is also a big leverage point. So when, as a player, you're negotiating for money is the easiest way to talk about it, but negotiating for an increase in the salary cap, that increase in the salary cap divided up amongst all the players is minute. And then you may not even be there for when it hits the salary cap. The difference is when you divide up one percentage point in revenue amongst all the owners, it's enormous. And it gets even more enormous in the fact that you understand that you will be getting that
19:17 Speaker 03 benefit into perpetuity and hand that benefit also down to your children. And also, then you get to the solidarity point where 32 like-minded individuals is a little easier to maintain and create some levels of solidarity. 32 individuals who, many of whom have been in this group for 10, 20, 15 years and don't plan on ever leaving it. That is, I mean, it's just, in this ecosystem analogy, that's a big ass lion with a lot of big ass teeth compared to a situation where there are very young guys who are not coming from billions of dollars, who recognize that their career lifecycle is very short, their opportunity
20:02 Speaker 03 to gain is very short, and are in different places. There are guys who make 35 million a year, and then there are guys who make a couple hundred thousand a year and may not be around very long. So, all those things make the dynamics really difficult, and it's not quite a lion versus lion in these negotiations.
20:23 Speaker 04 But it never is when it's management versus union. And just go back and think about the SAG-AFTRA strikes, and think about the number of actors who we heard from who make 20 million per picture, but that's a very tiny percentage of the union. The majority of the union are the people who are, you know, once in a while getting roles where they're barely making any money, and the Advent and the onslaught of AI could just eliminate them completely. And so there you end up fighting baseball union. The majority of players never reach arbitration, Dominique. You know that in terms of the career length. And so when you're arguing about free agency issues, or you're arguing only to the tip of the top of the union, which makes it harder for a union leader, because you've got a few people of power under Boris,
21:07 Speaker 04 but the majority of your union members are not focused on the same issues. And owners are not so different as you think. There's a lot of wrangling that has to go on by the commissioner.
21:18 Pablo Torre? OK, so you mentioned Scott Boris, who is a super agent in baseball, who is another one of these power centers in terms of organization, right? We're talking about how to organize, how to herd cats. The question of
21:30 Pablo Torre? whether David Samson was taken aback in any way, that there was a presentation at the NFL Management Council closed-door session at the league annual meetings in Palm Beach in 2022. That was like the central scene in the document, in which all of this stuff is happening. Roger Goodell and Jeff Pash, his lawyer, had been coordinating via email what messaging to put into these slides. We have seen now in the document the text, right? That's what the arbitrator ruled on, was that this was the NFL attempting to collude, attempting to coordinate with the owners, the 32 owners. Was any of that something you were like, oh, shit?
22:08 Speaker 04 No, it just brought me back to every owners meeting I ever went to over 18 years. Every single one had that presentation. So I just, to me, it's a nothing burger, because I know very well that I didn't collude, because we ended up getting screwed more than we screwed in terms of what other teams did with other teams' players. Though, once in a while, we'd purposefully overpay just to do a screw you, like when we took Reyes from the Mets.
22:33 Pablo Torre? Jose Reyes?
22:33 Speaker 04 Loved it, loved doing that, taking him away by offering him an extra year and extra dollars. So what we're told by the commissioner's office is, A, do whatever you want. But by the way, if you do differently than what we're saying, you're making a mistake, and here's the proof. And they were right every time. But the competitive nature of the franchisees is such that while you are brethren as you are negotiating media deals or other such things, you're competing against them, and we're all very competitive. We want to win.
23:06 Speaker 03 And I think there's a bunch of things to address there. First of all, like, I'm not one who believes that Roger Goodell's job is easy. I think it's hard as hell because I cannot imagine trying to get 31 or 32 billionaires to all fall in line. But I do think that it's a lot easier because I think their interests are a lot more aligned. When there are issues that hurt some and help others, that's when it gets really difficult, like creating those coalitions. So I think that's the first thing is, I think what you acknowledge is that being a commissioner of even the most profitable sport in America is probably incredibly hard.
23:44 Pablo Torre? Yes.
23:44 Speaker 03 You know what's tougher? Leading the union. So it's a lot more difficult because there are more people and with more interests and also with less experience in this world. So that's why I imagine like when you say things to the effect of it's a nothing burger, I think I understand that it's a nothing burger to you, but anytime there is an opportunity to shift a couple chips of power in the direction of the players, it does feel like a something burger.
24:19 Pablo Torre? Look, this is the quote from the arbitrator, just to set the scene here, right? Quote, "There is little question that the NFL management council, with the blessing of the commissioner, encouraged the 32 NFL clubs to reduce guarantees in veterans' contracts at the March 2022 annual owners' meeting." End quote. That was the standard of collusion that the arbitrator found that qualified, that was met. He did not find, for the record, proof to his satisfaction that the 32 NFL clubs acted on that advice directly. As in, no one else-
24:54 Speaker 04 Because we're idiots.
24:55 Pablo Torre? Well-
24:55 Speaker 04 We should act on the advice because it's right.
24:58 Pablo Torre? But de facto, by the way, I should clarify, like Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Russell Wilson are the three examples of the case studies. The star quarterbacks that were up that offseason and were up for full guarantees because of Deshaun Watson's insane contract with the Browns. Admittedly insane. And they didn't get him. And we have text messages and exchanges and emails in which you have not just a friendly relationship, but something like a brotherhood. In which they're celebrating the deals. Not just because congratulations.
25:29 Speaker 03 Characterizing the contract as insane, I think, is not fair. Unique, but characterizing it as insane when you look across other sports and look at the value of a player, given his background. I think the result of the contract makes it look particularly silly, but like, I think the idea of it is in itself is not.
25:50 Speaker 04 That's not right. When it was signed, the day it was signed is the day, if you go back to nothing personal of that day, where we said, wow. It wasn't the fact that it was fully guaranteed that struck me. It's never about that. It's what's the amount guaranteed at signing? And whether it's full or not, just look at that amount in the NFL. And what was guaranteed to Deshaun Watson, the guy who was, to me, never should take another snap, was 23 million. I didn't say one word about Josh Allen. I didn't say one word about Lamar Jackson when he signed.
26:20 Pablo Torre? I get what Dominique's point is. I don't want to get lost in what is probably, in some ways, the bigger story when it comes to just like, a guy who was embroiled in dozens of sexual misconduct lawsuits, got the biggest guaranteed contract in the history of the sport. I get what Dominique is saying in terms of the larger context of sports. The thing I'm referring to really, as what is most eye opening, is that David is in no ways moved at all by the idea that there is this degree of clarity around this brotherhood and this cooperation.
26:57 Speaker 04 Or the fact that there were a hundred times in my career, what I would say to another team president, hey, we got that one done well, huh? Or, man, I cannot believe that you signed that player to that amount. You're killing me, Smalls. Like, saying those things, that's not collusion. That's just saying, we all act on our own. We all do things in our own self-interest, but then we pretend that we're part of a team. And the instances where owners and presidents do not act as part of a team are way more. Common than when, hey, let's not, let's not give this third baseman anything.
27:34 Pablo Torre? But you said that in these presentations that you attended, right? The equivalent of the NFL MC for baseball. That there was always some guidance, some directive from the commissioner's office.
27:44 Speaker 04 So that's the difference. When you put out slides that show that every long-term contract for a pitcher doesn't work out, you, you are hoping the 30 men sitting there get the inference. You're, you're hoping that they look at that and say, oh, my GM told me that that agent wants eight years, 200 million. Well, that doesn't make sense because all deals over four years end up being bad. They don't say to you, you can't sign a guy for eight years. And that's not what the management council was saying.
28:12 Pablo Torre? They always say, Dominique, every team makes their own decision. But doesn't that feel like, I mean, practically speaking, this is not legally speaking, practically speaking, that feels like the, like disclaimer, but the effect, the intent seems quite obvious to me.
28:30 Speaker 03 I don't think any of us disagree with what's going on. I think the, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not looking to get into some debate on what constitutes actual collusion. Like that's the point of having an arbitrator, that's the point of going through these processes. And that frankly is the point of a, of a union, to challenge these things, to ensure like it's, I think we, we find ourselves. If you've ever like had, spent a lot of time around people from other countries that don't, not necessarily Western countries, you'll find that not everybody has as much faith in institutions as we do.
29:10 Speaker 03 And I know that we now generally would argue that as an American society, we have less faith in institutions than we used to.
29:21 Speaker 03 Yeah, talk to somebody from some South American countries about what they believe about their institutions. And I say all that to say that I think we generally trust these big bodies. And I think David's a perfect person to have here to remind us that these people are human. Like, it's while we think of the leagues as these big entities and these great big institutions that we should trust, like, no, it's made up of people who are smart and people who are sometimes dumb and people who are selfish and sometimes magnanimous. Like, they're people. And they need to be held responsible and they need to be checked and balanced, just like any other person. And so, like, that is fundamentally why, like,
30:03 Speaker 03 I genuinely believe in unions. And there are examples on the other side where unions have become overpowered and they distort industries. But that ain't it in pro sports. That's just not the way it works in pro sports.
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31:58 Pablo Torre? The court of public opinion is where I think me as the journalist should enter here because as much as you guys are both kind of numb to the idea that human behavior is human behavior, let's dose ourselves with the appropriate amount of cynicism, right? The idea that there is this level of communication, coordination, cooperation, what I'm saying is that I don't think normal fans realize how much this stuff is so explicitly discussed, right? And so when I think of what does it mean? Why is it an uphill battle for employees versus management? It's because the prices of things, the market value of things, the contracts of things are
32:40 Pablo Torre? in fact being shaped and reshaped quietly in ways that truly Dominique, only David Samson is saying this having done it in public. Like, I just want to be clear about this. What you're getting here is a transparency from Dominique and from David and from me. But typically, the ownership class, the executive class, they're not admitting to anything David is saying right now at all, right Dominique? Like, that's, the court of public opinion is tilted because people don't realize that owners actually do this stuff because they never, other than David, admit to it.
33:16 Speaker 04 But what I'm admitting to, to me, is not in any way wrong. And I would tell you that without impugning anyone on any side. This happens in any business, in any industry, where there is an agreement and we operate within the four corners of the agreement. There are grievances that are filed every year by the union. Because what the union is doing is fighting for its interpretation of the four corners. And what management is doing is fighting for its interpretation of the four corners. Because you can't legislate every issue that comes up during the course of a relationship with the union. And these grievances are purposeful. They're meant to provide guardrails to behavior that both sides do.
34:00 Speaker 04 And it's not just sports, it's every industry where this happens. So what I'm talking about that people don't like talking about is of course, we are doing things to try to maximize every piece of leverage, to save every dollar and to get our employees as little money as possible, so we can be more profitable. Oh, I'm sorry, I just described every management of every business in any industry.
34:26 Speaker 03 Yeah, but not every management of every business and every industry, like, exists in a way that professional sports leagues do. And that, like, I guess you could argue against a league being a monopoly because they're in competition with other leagues and other entertainment entities. But you can't argue against it being a monopsony in which the players have no other outlet to go to use their skills. So when you're saying that in every other industry, it does not. Like, there aren't other industries with salary caps, max salaries.
34:57 Speaker 04 You agree to it.
34:58 Speaker 03 See, and that's, that gets back to the asymmetry conversation that we're talking about. So look, like David, you told us in a recent episode that your parents didn't let you watch TV when you were a kid. It's like, yeah, you agreed to it. It's like, there's a different level of power and the structure. And you agree to things because of the situation that you're in. And I imagine that, given today's, like, perspective, you would think that all the limits on movement of players and constraints on salaries that existed in the leagues in NFL pre-93, you would now agree that that is unfair and terrible, right?
35:40 Speaker 04 I would agree that the union did a great job at one point or another in each of these sports through very powerfully and emotional players like Curt Flood to make a difference for players going forward that all unions try to accomplish. But Dominique, I'm not going to agree with you that you have no outlet for your skill. The minimum, the reason why the court of public opinion is so hard on players and owners is because we're all in stratospheres that no one can relate to. The minimum salary-
36:11 Speaker 03 But we aren't. But we all aren't, is the thing. The players all are not in stratospheres that they, that people can't relate to.
36:20 Speaker 04 What's the minimum salary in football?
36:22 Speaker 03 Let's, let's stick, let's stick to the original point that you tried to get away from. I think that Pablo made a point that the reason why us, you and I talking is interesting is because we both will be honest. And like, rather than you directly answer the question I asked, you did a lawyer maneuver and got around it and changed the subject to something else. So like, I, I think that-
36:45 Speaker 04 What's the question?
36:46 Speaker 03 I think panoply. We don't, we don't need, we don't need to answer the question. I don't, frankly, it's not important what your answer is. I think that one of the reasons why this is an area where I find a great deal of passion is because like, I know these guys. And like, I know, and I was one of these guys. I know the amount of work and sacrifice and effort and risk, frankly. Like, I, the things that, decisions that I made, it limited the career paths for me to a kind of one area. And if it didn't work out, it didn't work out. And I also know the people for whom it didn't work out. And people who only played for three years in the league and made hundreds of thousands of dollars in those three years, but then are not in a position going forward to have
37:31 Speaker 03 the type of life that you would expect a professional athlete to have. And so like, the union exists not only to make sure that you are not suppressing, which you are, but not fully suppressing the salaries of the very top and most talented players. It exists in order to protect the guys at the- Bottom too with minimum salaries and with some sort of transition and with the hope that they can get to the point where all this stuff was worth it.
37:57 Speaker 04 Why should you have the right Dominique to have to do a job for three years and be set for life? And I'm not saying that you agree with that because I know you don't, but the majority of baseball players. They're baseball players for a while and then they go on to be doctors or dentists or they work in construction or they become coaches. It is a moment in time where you try to make as much money as you can. And then if you can live the rest of your life, that is the, I assume football is the same as baseball. Not even the top 1% of baseball players get to live the rest of their life based on career earnings.
38:31 Speaker 03 Right, I, I had no point did I argue that you should be able to.
38:36 Speaker 03 But you said what gives you the right, it's not about right, it's, it's about what I would assume the only time that you don't believe in a free and open market is when it's talking, when it speaks to paying for the talents of individuals. So like that, it's not about the right, it's about how valuable that you are without the artificial constraints of, of rookie salaries, without the artificial constraints of salary caps, without any of the artificial constraints, like that's. And it's not only about the money and in football particularly health cameras, like all these things are cost money, which is why we always end up back at money. And about career transition, all this stuff costs money, which we always end up back at money.
39:19 Speaker 03 However, like on the other side of that. When you say what gives you the right to, to ask for these things, on the other side of that, what gives you the right to deny them?
39:30 Speaker 04 No.
39:30 Speaker 03 To get another million.
39:33 Speaker 04 Not asked.
39:34 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, what? That's fine, at no point did I say I expected it, but I, I guess it just turning it back around on you is, or on the ownership class is the part where it gets confusing is like.
39:50 Speaker 03 Would give you the right to expect that you should not provide these things. And saying that you agreed to it, you know, it's like if you and I were to get into a fight and I say, do you want to stop the fight now? At some point, you would agree to it. You would much rather win the fight. But like if we're fighting over Pablo, at some point, you'd be like, hey, you can have 30% of Pablo. I want 80%. At some point, if you and I are in a fistfight, I'll take whatever percentage I want.
40:17 Pablo Torre? Who's getting the calves? Who's getting the most valuable part of me?
40:20 Speaker 03 Pablo is a bad example. I don't want any fights with Pablo.
40:23 Speaker 04 Why would we ever fight over a percentage of Pablo?
40:26 Speaker 03 I don't know.
40:27 Pablo Torre? I was looking at him. My jawline, my ring, my calves.
40:30 Speaker 03 Yeah. But I mean, you get the point that I'm making is that, is that by saying you agreed to it is like, yeah, it does give you the trap door, but you understand that
40:43 Speaker 04 But there's laws about that.
40:44 Speaker 03 It's not fair.
40:45 Speaker 04 I get what you're saying, but there's laws about that.
40:47 Pablo Torre? But look, but everything you're talking about is
40:50 Speaker 03 There's the whole law on Pablo, like,
40:52 Speaker 04 You can't, if you cannot, if you agree to something under duress, that agreement is invalid.
40:58 Speaker 03 Okay, there are laws about that.
41:00 Pablo Torre? But we're talking, though, we're talking.
41:01 Speaker 03 Because the laws exist in a place where, again, you know, who does not have a lot of influence and power when it comes to the courts where these decisions are made, these places where these laws are developed? You know, 22 to 32-year-old guys who just got out of college and have been playing football. Like, there are laws for that. And like, no one would argue that it's completely under duress, but like,
41:26 Pablo Torre? But this is, but Dominique said-
41:27 Speaker 03 You got me on here, you got me worked up because you got David doing all this foolishness.
41:32 Pablo Torre? Towel down, towel down, both of you. Dominique said the word, though, that is-
41:34 Speaker 03 You won, Pablo, you won.
41:38 Pablo Torre? The word, the word here, the key word here that Dominique just said is power, right? Everything you're talking about, you agreed to this, is a function of the push and pull, right? That takes place behind closed doors, but also relevantly for the union and perhaps irrelevantly, given the suppression of this document, in public. Right? So the whole question of like, there's a fascinating subplot here, Dominique, when it comes to like, what are the nuclear buttons available to both sides? Right? And it seems to be the case that if the nuclear button is, we're not going to play the games.
42:19 Pablo Torre? One side is far better equipped to survive nuclear winter than the other. And so, everything being about you agreed to this, if that's the looming threat, it just feels like we should dive into, okay, wait a minute. How then do we actually shift the balance of power? If that's always gonna be the bottom line question, which as Dominique said before, is gonna be money, right? That's what we're talking about.
42:44 Speaker 04 You just described every relationship between management and union. In every industry, yes, there's always balance of power issues. And Dominique will acknowledge this.
42:54 Speaker 03 The power asymmetry is a little more dramatic in sports because of how short the careers are. So like, if you're saying every union everywhere, it's a little different. It would make sense for a UPS union, like, they could reasonably go on strike for an extended period of time because their careers could be longer. The fact that the football players' careers are a lot shorter and the ownership's careers are not as short, like, that makes the pain of one missed season, if you're only gonna have three seasons, that pain is a lot more pronounced. And so, like, that makes the power asymmetry, I think, in my view, a little bit more dramatic.
43:36 Speaker 04 But I call this the Menudo effect, which is that any time you're doing something that is for people to benefit for a short period of time, and by definition, time will opt them out of whatever benefits are being negotiated. Child actors, as an example.
43:51 Pablo Torre? You're talking about the Puerto Rican boy band?
43:53 Speaker 04 You've heard of it, yes.
43:54 Pablo Torre? Menudo.
43:55 Speaker 04 Is that something?
43:56 Pablo Torre? I just couldn't tell if you were, like, badly translating a Spanish word.
43:59 Speaker 04 No, I'm talking about the fact that there's boy bands, and you negotiate deals, and all of a sudden, they grow out of the band. You have to replace them with other boys because they're too old. And that happens with child actors. It happens with all sorts of industries, not just sports, where there is a period of time in your life where you can do that which you do, and then you've gotta go do something else. It's not unique to sports, Dominique, I don't agree.
44:22 Speaker 03 I know, but the boy band, there isn't a cap. There's not a cap on the boy band. You can go to other record labels, you can negotiate. Like, these things don't, like, I love a good analogy, but your analogies aren't. Like, we could just talk about this particular place.
44:37 Pablo Torre? Wait, hold on, Dominique, I would actually say that if David's go-to analogy is boy bands, which are famously rife with abuse.
44:44 Speaker 03 Yeah.
44:45 Pablo Torre? You might want to lean into that one, actually.
45:00 Speaker 04 I spent every day of my career trying to take as much from players as I could and give as little as possible. That is, that was my job.
45:08 Pablo Torre? Dominique, remember that scene in The Big Short? I don't get it. Why are they confessing? And the guy goes, They're not confessing.
45:16 Speaker 07 They're bragging.
45:19 Pablo Torre? He's not confessing, he's bragging?
45:22 Pablo Torre? It's like the greatest compliment I paid David Samson.
45:24 Speaker 04 When you're the president of a team, you are going at it with players, whether they're making 10 million or when you're arguing over the minimum. I had arguments with players over what raises they'd get, over how much they'd get for appearances, all the things that you'd think would make you crazy as a player. But of course, my job was to pay the least amount of money to get people to do the most amount of work. And it wasn't just players. We did it with people in marketing and sales and finance and every, every part of the company.
45:54 Speaker 03 All right, I mean, I, I feel like you made all the points that I want to make is like listening to you talk about it like makes the points. And like, I, I have no interest in making players or unions look like weak or feeble institutions. But it's not, it's not a coincidence that so many of the leaps in
46:17 Speaker 03 labor rights have come through the courts and professional football specifically and in professional sports because of the asymmetry of power. But I just wanted to have this conversation out in the open. And I think it's pretty clear what you represent and clear what I represent.
46:35 Speaker 04 I think it's a big story that the union did not disclose this.
46:38 Pablo Torre? Well, let me get, let me get, let me get to this because I think a big key part of this, right? Because as much as David is embodying a rare honesty in terms of like, this is what it's like. This is what we're trying to do. We're trying to squeeze every dollar. The point I have to make here is that the reason why this document, the reason why this document was not published is because as much as David is in a position now to be very open. There is clearly an incentive for the owners to not have people know that this is what it's like back there.
47:12 Speaker 04 But the union didn't leak it either.
47:14 Pablo Torre? And this brings me to the other part, which is that when it comes to the nuclear button and what you do short of pressing the nuclear button, which the own, which of course, we, we know the union does not want to do for the economic vast gap between owners and players. Right. It's obvious now. You have the ability to persuade the public that this is something that you might care about, that this is actually an imbalance that seems unfair. I've heard from people who are saying, if you had a properly functioning union, you would make a political stink about this. The union is based in Washington DC. You would lobby Congress to investigate. You would call for Roger Goodell to be investigated and maybe even removed.
47:58 Pablo Torre? You would take all of the information in here and you would tell a story that reflects something resembling an accessible and relatable gulf in what it's like to be an employee in the United States versus an owner and a manager. And the fact that this union did not allow this to get out there for reasons that we chronicle in the episode, Dominique, seems, seems like a lot, man. It just seems like a lot.
48:31 Speaker 03 Exactly what I am not gonna do. So like you had, you had an episode not too long ago with Lena Kahn.
48:39 Pablo Torre? Yes.
48:40 Speaker 03 FTC or former FTC.
48:41 Pablo Torre? Who is, by the way, who was also, uh, she's watching this episode, I am told. I look forward to her review as well. Yeah.
48:49 Speaker 03 Okay, well, she, I, yeah, a former, right?
48:52 Pablo Torre? Former, yes, yes, yes.
48:54 Speaker 03 Yeah. So, um, I just, I listened to that episode of hers and she's been doing a couple of other media things recently that I listened to. And, um, she speaks about an arm of this or another entity in this ecosystem that in her view was dormant um, until recently. And I think that it's a good example of what it means when you have.
49:21 Speaker 03 A particular portion of this ecosystem getting a tremendous amount of power without it being checked. And I think the reason why I thought it was important to say that these institutions are made up of people is because it makes it easier for us to understand why they need to be checked. And it makes it clearer to us to understand why places like the FTC need to be active and why unions need to be equally as strong. Because I in no way, and again, with David Samson being the perfect avatar for this, I in no way would want to live in a world or work in an industry with an unchecked David Samson or anyone like that.
49:58 Speaker 04 But you were, we were checked. Just FYI. That grievance is exactly the check.
50:04 Speaker 03 Agreed. And I'm saying, my point is, the union does exist for that purpose and the union is doing that. That's all my point is. I'm saying that in the union also exists in order to protect the league itself with the antitrust exemption that exists because the union is around. And like that benefits both sides. I guess my, my only point about this is, it doesn't have to be overnight. It can be gradual. The, the power shift can be gradual and the, the, um, the erosion can be gradual till you get to a point to where you're back in the, the pre 93 days. And so like, I certainly don't want to be hyperbolic and this is why I was more than willing to come on here. Like, I'm happy.
50:49 Speaker 03 I, I love union stuff. I love having these conversations. Most of the time, people don't care. So I'm happy to have this conversation now about the bigger, broader conversation. Not the specific stuff about what's going on right now, but the bigger, broader conversation. If people care to hear about it now, I'm all in on it. And I know that most people look at athletes and think they're a bunch of spoiled millionaires that play a game for a living. Like, I recognize that. I think it's important to understand the full context of it. And I'm sure I have blind spots in the same way that David, you have blind spots in this. But I think in this environment and what the future pretends in this environment is not good for anyone if there isn't a strong and functioning union on the opposite side of.
51:33 Speaker 03 Any of professional leagues.
51:35 Speaker 04 I think that these types of conversations are the exact type of conversations that I wish our country had more. Instead of being entrenched in a position and being unwilling to listen and only yelling into an echo chamber where no progress can be made. I found out that from Dominique's perspective, it is very emotional to him, given his past, and that he has a hard time, which I totally understand, trying to make heads or tails of the action of people who he knows, who may have done things that he disagrees with, but has such loyalty that he will not turn, and I find that to be admirable.
52:11 Speaker 03 I learned that Pablo is a lot like Roger Goodell.
52:14 Pablo Torre? Oh, wow.
52:15 Speaker 04 Whoa.
52:17 Speaker 03 No, that's not an insult, it's a compliment. I think that you do a very hard job, and I also think that you have a priority stack. And in the same way that I believe that Roger Goodell genuinely cares about players, I believe that when that is in conflict with something else, he puts something else like the owners or whatever interest the owners have, he bumps it down. And I think that Pablo is the same way, in that he does care about me, but in that priority stack.
52:57 Pablo Torre? Give him good hugs. I give good hugs.
53:00 Speaker 03 I am below his show and his own personal gain. That's all.
53:06 Speaker 04 Well, I thought, I played the game wrong. I thought we were supposed to tell you something we found out today. And there's no way that Dominique found out today that you prioritize your show over your friendships.
53:18 Speaker 03 Well, fair.
53:19 Speaker 04 I mean, it can't be.
53:20 Pablo Torre? Good, good priority stack, guys. Love you both.
53:34 Pablo Torre? Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Avaroma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tumanello. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post. Our theme song, as always, is by John Bravo. And we will talk to you next time.
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