Pod Insights Pablo Torre Finds Out The Undercover Life of J.P. Lehman About this episode He's a 41-year-old investment banker with a dad bod. He's also a sh*t-talking, drop-kicking, tooth-spitting caricature of himself, as one of the hottest minor-league pro wrestlers in America. Is Hub Orr's real-life heel turn an act of bravery, stupidity or the inspiring in-between? And can we all still find in ourselves... what the WWE saw in him?
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2:11 Speaker 03 Sir, you are a leech. You are an absolute leech.
2:17 Pablo Torre? Right after this ad.
2:25 Pablo Torre? For those who are not watching, and are merely listening, I do want to describe what you look like.
2:31 Speaker 03 Go ahead.
2:32 Pablo Torre? I'm trying not to be insulting.
2:34 Speaker 03 Insult me away.
2:36 Pablo Torre? You look like you just foreclosed on someone's loan. You just took them out of their house. It looks like, um, you caused the financial crisis, frankly.
2:48 Speaker 03 Thankfully, I did not, but I'm gonna take that as a compliment.
2:53 Pablo Torre? You're wearing a suit, power tie. Again, I'm not saying that you're Mike Pence's stunt double, but something, something to that, now that I see you face to face for the first time. And thank you for being here, by the way.
3:04 Speaker 03 Of course.
3:05 Pablo Torre? Hub Orr.
3:06 Speaker 03 Yes.
3:07 Pablo Torre? Is what I'm calling you.
3:09 Speaker 03 That is indeed my name, H-U-B-O-R-R.
3:13 Pablo Torre? You have a political affect. It looks like you're in charge of some [BLEEP], man. And I don't know if that's a good thing.
3:21 Speaker 03 Some days it is, some days it isn't.
3:23 Pablo Torre? So you're here in New York, you live in Charlotte?
3:25 Speaker 03 Correct.
3:26 Pablo Torre? And what is your job as you, Hub Orr?
3:31 Speaker 03 Day to day, I'm a managing director at a global investment bank.
3:35 Pablo Torre? That tracks.
3:36 Speaker 03 I'm dressed for exactly what you expect me to be dressed for.
3:39 Pablo Torre? What does that mean?
3:41 Speaker 03 It is Wall Street-type stuff. I mean, I work in the consumer and retail space. So I work with companies, big and small. I take them public, so take them, put them on the stock market so you can buy their stock. I help them raise debt, should they need debt to go and, you know, do whatever they need to do. And I sell them. So when you want to sell Pablo Torre and everything associated with it to the highest bidder, you call me, and I'll help you run a process, find a buyer, get you the highest valuation, all that stuff. But I do it for consumer retail companies, sporting goods companies, stuff like that. I work for Jefferies.
4:15 Pablo Torre? We're talking one of the biggest investment banks in the world.
4:17 Speaker 03 Yes.
4:18 Pablo Torre? Seven billion dollars in net revenue last year. Five times bigger than the WWE, to just pull an example, clearly at random, not specific at all, for the time being. But you're an I-banker. Does your boss at Jefferies know that you're here right now?
4:32 Speaker 03 Very few, if any, people at Jefferies have any idea, not only that I'm here... But what I may do on nights and weekends.
4:41 Pablo Torre? So your nights and weekends, which is clearly in the vein of some alter ego, some may say superhero, others may say, depending on how, I don't know, 2008 went for them, supervillain, you're comfortable revealing your identity now to the world for us.
4:59 Speaker 03 There is, from my estimation, no stopping it. So I'd rather go big or go home, Pablo. I'm an independent professional wrestler.
5:09 Pablo Torre? And your name?
5:10 Speaker 03 JP Lehman, the Wall Street Fat Cat.
5:13 Speaker 04 Weighing in at 80% equities and 20% fixed income, standing in at too big to fail. From Wall Street, this is JP Lehman.
5:32 Pablo Torre? What are some of JP Lehman, the Wall Street Fat Cat's moves?
5:37 Speaker 03 JP Lehman has a deep repertoire of moves, in no particular order. He has the inverted yield curve. Crowd, he's got his health, he's got his wealth.
5:50 Speaker 03 It is a typical vertical suplex, but when you put the inverted yield curve spin on it, it actually sounds a little bit better.
5:56 Pablo Torre? That seems effective.
5:57 Speaker 03 That's a setup move. Usually I'll set people up with the inverted yield curve.
6:01 Pablo Torre? Excuse me, yeah.
6:02 Speaker 03 Yeah.
6:02 Pablo Torre? That's just the moves bouche.
6:04 Speaker 03 That is merely an appetizer, Pablo. Wall Street driver by JP Lehman. There is the EBITDA adjustment, which is closer to the finish. That is a play on John Cena's finishing move, if you know John Cena. He does the attitude adjustment. It is putting someone on my shoulders and dropping them very quickly on their back to the mat. It's a setup move for my finisher. John Cena, his attitude adjustment move.
6:33 Speaker 03 Only wrestling fans will know about that. And then if you work in finance, you know what an EBITDA adjustment is.
6:40 Pablo Torre? And can you please help us explain?
6:42 Speaker 03 It is when a company is earning X, but you adjust it up to make it look like, or seem as though, or pro forma such that they're earning Y.
6:52 Speaker 05 But look at the rabid look on the eyes of JP Lehman. He's doing all this in basically a suit, by the way.
7:00 Speaker 03 Now, the way I've kind of thought about this, and you tell me if I'm wrong, is the Venn diagram of those who know what John Cena's attitude adjustment is, and understand what an EBITDA adjustment is, is probably one person. And I think it's probably me. And so to me, this is sort of a play on words that no one else cares for, understands, or gives a rip about, but it gives me a chuckle.
7:24 Pablo Torre? In that way, you and I are not so different.
7:29 Speaker 03 I've spent, you know, the preceding 10 to 12 to 15 minutes, you know, beating up my opponent. And I'd like to finish them off with a move that I call the stock bottom.
7:41 Speaker 05 The only way Lehman can get out of the hole. Stock bottom!
7:52 Speaker 03 That is, I think, probably, obviously, for many, a play on the rock bottom.
7:58 Pablo Torre? Rock bottom.
7:59 Speaker 03 Exactly.
7:59 Pablo Torre? I do smell what you're cooking.
8:00 Speaker 03 I smell exactly what I'm... I appreciate that you smell what I'm cooking as well.
8:03 Pablo Torre? I sometimes occasionally do.
8:26 Pablo Torre? So I'm not a huge lifelong wrestling fan or anything, as was recently established by our recent investigation into how wrestling infiltrated the 1998 NBA Finals. But I also don't really see the story of Hub Orr, our episode today, as the story of one of the 100 most popular athletes in American minor league pro wrestling, which he is.
8:50 Pablo Torre? I see this story as a story about the conflict between your job on the one hand and your passion on the other. And what happens when you realize that nobody who knows you from the former is gonna find out about the latter?
9:05 Speaker 03 That is correct, which is why for the past seven years, it's been possible to maintain, you know, a Wall Street day job with a whatever you want to call this night job. The events occur at breweries, at VFW halls, at fairgrounds, all over the US frankly. New York, anywhere around the country, 30 to 40 probably, independent wrestling promotions, putting on events all around you all weekend. It runs the gamut of every degree and variety of lowbrow venue you can possibly imagine, Pablo.
9:42 Pablo Torre? And I did not realize this, admittedly. I did not realize that I am at, apparently, all times, including right here in New York City, surrounded by wrestlers. But New York City is not where J.P. Lehman, the unholy amalgamation of J.P. Morgan and Lehman Brothers, the wrestler you'll meet in a bit here, was born.
10:04 Speaker 03 It's a long, twisty journey. It starts with obviously being interested and being a fan of pro wrestling, which I've been my entire life. And the first step is school. It's like anything else. You gotta go to school.
10:16 Pablo Torre? And this gray-haired eye-banger did. He went to Duke, and then the Kellogg School of Management thereafter, and then he moved from New York, where he had worked for Morgan Stanley, to North Carolina to work for Jeffries. But that's also not the school that we're talking about. Because in 2018, Hub Orr mustered up the courage to ask his wife, the mother of his children, for permission to live his childhood dream and enroll in wrestling school. And because this woman understood her husband in ways that Hub Orr's coworkers never could or would, she said, yes.
10:58 Speaker 03 And for the first month, I went and I sat outside the venue and I just listened. I was too, I don't know if scared is the right word, but I was not ready to take the plunge and go in and actually start for a lot of reasons, but one of which is pro wrestling schools have a notorious history of stretching is what they use, the parlance they use, stretching newcomers. The idea is that you weed out those who are not really interested or in it for the wrong reasons and not going to put in the work. So I was very concerned about walking in and now they see what you see. They see gray hair. They see a dad bod. They see, you know, not someone who's serious about this. And then I get stretched and then I'm walking home with like a broken arm.
11:41 Pablo Torre? So in the grand tradition of stretching, which sounds like a version of hazing?
11:46 Speaker 03 Yeah.
11:47 Pablo Torre? What does that entail?
11:48 Speaker 03 It entails, from what I understand, this is more of an old school concept, pain. There's a famous story, whether it's true or not, which all of wrestling is, you could caveat with that, whether it's true or not, of Hulk Hogan's first training session in Florida broke his leg. To see, to some extent, will Hulk Hogan come back? And he did.
12:08 Pablo Torre? Right. I think this is where I do need to channel my friend Dan Soder, who is an enormous wrestling fan, the world's foremost Macho Man impersonator.
12:18 Speaker 06 I was always very proud of you. Yeah. Couple of those birthday gifts weren't the best, but you bought it with your heart. Yeah. When you buy with your heart, it's the best gift you can have. I love you, son. You're doing a good job. Yeah.
12:34 Pablo Torre? I do need to channel him because he always reminds that, yes, there is a scripted storyline aspect, if I may, break that fourth wall already, but the [bleep] physical risk.
12:51 Pablo Torre? Is unambiguously real.
12:53 Speaker 03 Yes, it hurts. There's no two ways around it. It hurts. The first time you bump, you get in there. For my first session, it was get on, here's how you bump, do 10 of them. And you wake up the next morning and your neck, it's right here. Right here in your neck. It feels as though you've been in a car wreck. And then through bravery, stupidity, or something in between, you go back and eventually your body becomes, I don't know if it's okay with it or what, but you develop some sort of antidote to it.
13:24 Pablo Torre? Yeah, I don't know if antidote is medically speaking, what's happening there.
13:27 Speaker 03 Right, exactly. But you you become accustomed to it. The other thing is when you're in the ring, in front of people, be it at a show or at training, there's an adrenaline piece of this that can't be overlooked, where your adrenaline is pumping. And that masks any of the pain, but in some, I mean, there are injuries, have been injuries, the way it goes.
13:45 Pablo Torre? Yeah, I would like to relive with you some of that adrenaline, because we have a bit of a montage here.
13:56 Pablo Torre? And if you are not watching this on our YouTube channel, I just got to jump in here to point out that this is worth seeing. If you're only hearing this, what you got to understand is that when Hub Orr describes the surge of adrenaline he gets when he transforms into JP Lehman, the pain he becomes impervious to includes the pain of wrapping his thighs around someone's face, only to be chucked backwards through a table.
14:28 Pablo Torre? Not to mention the pain of getting kicked right in the throat. Evans, are you kidding me?
14:37 Pablo Torre? And somersaulting onto a garbage can. He hasn't had luck, but with that, and it won't be today.
14:46 Pablo Torre? No one home except the garbage can. And also taking a metal ladder right to the head.
15:02 Pablo Torre? But in all of the JP Lehman game tape that I have watched, which has been a lot, I also don't think that anything compares to the visual, the sheer visual, of him climbing up onto the turnbuckle and then front flipping onto every parent's nightmare. Shot again. Oh my God. Oh my God. What I want your colleagues at this eye bank to see is the still frame of you making eye contact with the camera. And it's the whole, "You may be wondering how I wound up in this situation." You got a tie tied around your head, you're shirtless, and what is all around you?
15:43 Speaker 03 That is Legos. Legos are in the background. That is probably of everything you just witnessed. The garbage can, the kick to the Adam's apple, the being thrown over the top. I can't remember. The ladder drew blood. That one was pouring blood, but it didn't hurt. What hurts the most are the Legos.
16:04 Pablo Torre? What penetrates the adrenaline shield is...
16:07 Speaker 03 Is the Legos.
16:08 Pablo Torre? Is the feeling that any dad, I am amongst them, any dad knows from stepping on a Lego, you basically had your entire body flung upon.
16:19 Speaker 03 That is correct. I did a top rope, front flip onto probably 300 Legos, each of which had between four and seven distinct points on the edges of them. And so that reaction right there in that freeze frame is real. And then the adrenaline kicks in, the pain subsides, and then you go into the, you know, the scripted or, you know, the selling of the movie. Exactly.
16:42 Pablo Torre? So there's the selling, but then there's the serious. How serious are the injuries when it comes to like your battle scars?
16:51 Speaker 03 So for me, there are many stories of people severely injured. For me... My most serious injury was these two front teeth right here that are fake.
17:03 Pablo Torre? Hmm.
17:04 Speaker 03 Uh, I was training on a Thursday night, I still remember in late November, with a couple people, one of whom was a guy named Lucky Ali across the southeast, who is now contracted by the WWE, goes by Saquon Suggers. And he dumps me with a body slam, hits the ropes and says, "Move on the knee." Just easy part, easy conversation, move on the knee.
17:28 Pablo Torre? What does move on the knee mean?
17:29 Speaker 03 Move on the knee means I'm gonna drop a knee, you move. I unfortunately heard none of that. So he drops the knee right across my face, I don't move, and I see teeth just everywhere on the map. It's a Thursday night, I have to go home to my wife and three children, uh, with no two front teeth. What makes it all worse is that it was right before Thanksgiving. So we have, uh, a lineup of Friendsgiving parties that weekend.
18:02 Pablo Torre? Oh yeah.
18:02 Speaker 03 For which I am worried I'm gonna show up with no front teeth. We are new to a town. So, emergency dental appointment, 8 a.m. the next morning,
18:14 Speaker 03 where they can't give me full teeth and real teeth, but they give me plaster, which can get me through the weekend. So I have two plaster teeth right here.
18:23 Pablo Torre? Mm-hmm.
18:25 Speaker 03 Which is great. Until I get to, you know, the Saturday night party with all of my wife's friends and some, you know, people in the Charlotte banking scene. And about two glasses of red wine in, I go to the restroom and take a look in the mirror. And these plaster teeth are more purple or blue than your sweater right now. And so I feverishly work to clean these teeth. And during that teeth cleaning exercise, they all come out. And so I have two teeth dangling like this. And that was effectively the end of the party for me.
19:03 Pablo Torre? What did your wife say?
19:05 Speaker 03 Strike one.
19:07 Speaker 03 Said you got three strikes, you're on strike one. So thankfully, that's been the worst, I would say. Or the closest brush with, you know.
19:16 Pablo Torre? Divorce?
19:16 Speaker 03 Yeah, divorce, you know, being a social pariah, anything in between. But otherwise, she's been incredibly supportive.
19:24 Pablo Torre? I'm trying to analogize this to sports, so forgive me if this feels, again, insulting and simplistic. But if you are working your way up through the independent wrestling scene, which feels on some level like the minors.
19:36 Speaker 03 Exactly right.
19:37 Pablo Torre? WWE would be the majors.
19:39 Speaker 03 Correct.
19:41 Pablo Torre? What does the big show feel like to you?
19:44 Speaker 03 I mean, miles and miles away, and certainly not something I ever got into this envisioning I would achieve. I mean, I am 40 years old, give or take.
19:53 Pablo Torre? I was gonna profile you based on the hair color. That does not feel like dye.
19:57 Speaker 03 No, this is legitimate salt and pepper ironed. The impetus for all of this was February of 2024. There was a local seminar, effectively, with one of the WWE scouts, a man named Gabe Sapolsky, who's been very kind to me with his time. And he goes around the country, puts on these seminars, and will watch wrestlers wrestle. And he'll give you feedback, and, you know, in two cases, locally in the Carolinas, has said, "You two, you're going to the show." And so, I went to one of these, he watched one of my matches, and he pulled me aside in front of, you know, probably 100 people. And I was expecting nothing, by the way. And he said, "I love this.
20:41 Speaker 03 This should be everywhere." But after that, he said, "We're never gonna hire you."
20:47 Pablo Torre? You have, to borrow the language of your day job, clearly found a market inefficiency when it comes to the cast of wrestling caricatures. There are guys who love snakes, there are guys who, I mean, you just go down the list of like the types of guys, the templates of guys, that of every sort of animal seems to have representation.
21:09 Speaker 03 Correct.
21:10 Pablo Torre? But the thing that is most villainous about late-stage capitalism happens to be, A, who you actually are in real life, but more to the point.
21:23 Pablo Torre? It is rich with potential when it comes to playing a heel. And yet.
21:32 Speaker 03 There have been many who have done something similar. You go back to Ted DiBiase.
21:36 Pablo Torre? The Million Dollar Man.
21:37 Speaker 06 I'm here. I'm here. The Million Dollar Man is here.
21:42 Speaker 03 You have recent examples. Matt Hardy, who was in the WWE, did something called the Hardy Family Office. I could go on and on with people who have done the quote unquote "rich guy gimmick." The reason I think I'm different, and this is not a commercial or anything like that, but it is sort of, you know, why I wanted to do it, is I don't think anyone has done it with the specific Wall Street bent.
22:02 Pablo Torre? Mm-hmm.
22:03 Speaker 03 With the kind of knowledge and experience in a decade plus of actual Wall Street experience.
22:08 Pablo Torre? Of EBITDA.
22:09 Speaker 03 Of EBITDA adjustments and sell-side mandates and private equity dry powder and, you know, Cove Light Term Loan Bs and stuff like that that I can weave into the character that are completely legit and authentic.
22:21 Pablo Torre? Like actually you taking stuff that you do in your office into the ring?
22:26 Speaker 03 All the time. All the time. J.P. Lehman, the best way to describe what the best wrestling gimmicks and characters are is that they are the real person underneath the costume cranked up to 11. Stone Cold Steve Austin is Steve Williams cranked up to 11. The Rock is Dwayne Johnson cranked up to 11. J.P. Lehman is probably a 13 or 14 relative to Hub Orr. Hub Orr is nowhere near as bombastic or insulting or aggressive or combative as J.P. Lehman, but there are hints and tinges of things that I would never say in my real life, but may have thought that for J.P. Lehman, there's no filter. You know, I read a newspaper when my opponent is being introduced.
23:11 Speaker 03 I'd sit on the turnbuckle and I'd read the Wall Street Journal or the Financial Times.
23:15 Pablo Torre? Legs crossed.
23:17 Speaker 03 Glasses on.
23:18 Pablo Torre? Power pose.
23:19 Speaker 03 Yep. The reason I believe this works is just that experience and the ability, and it happens all the time, to hear something on a Wednesday in the office or on the road and translate that into the character. So I have colleagues, you know, we travel a lot for work. I have colleagues who are hotel and airline status obsessed. And so I spent, you know, one promo, maybe a year ago, talking about concierge key on American Airlines and, you know, getting boos from the crowd. The most notable one, though, if you'd like to go there, Pablo.
23:48 Pablo Torre? I feel like I have no choice at this point.
23:51 Speaker 03 Is the client call.
23:53 Speaker 05 This is where you don't want to be if you're JP. What is he going for?
23:59 Speaker 03 This is one of the spots I do that people seem to gravitate towards that came directly from a singular moment in my career. When you're an associate in an investment bank, it's long hours, it's all-nighters, it's all that kind of stuff that you hear about and read about. It's all true. You do it because you're working.
24:15 Pablo Torre? Cocaine.
24:16 Speaker 03 Well, for me, no. But you do that, all that, because it's intellectually stimulating. You like the companies with whom you're working. It's above the fold Wall Street Journal stuff. But most importantly, it's the compensation. And so there's a day in early January when you sit down with your group head who delivers your comp for the year. They say, here's your bonus. And that is the singular day that you, you know, from a compensation perspective, are working towards all year with all those long hours. I sit down, this is the moment. This is the moment to get the bonus number. And as we're sitting about to have this conversation, me and the MD in a room, his phone goes off. Not only does he answer it, he says, yeah,
24:58 Speaker 03 I'm good. No, nothing important. And so I'm sitting there like, this is the most important meeting of my year. And for him, he very casually sloughs me off and says, yeah, and answers the client call, which he should. So my 30-minute meeting becomes like less than five. And I took that. I'll never forget it. And I love the guy, by the way. He's a mentor. I'm a huge fan of his. So that's the job. When the client calls, you answer. But I took that. And when I got traction with JP Lehman, I put it directly into my matches. So during my match, sometime, a client calls. And if a client calls, I answer.
25:35 Speaker 05 He's got a phone call. He legitimately has a phone call. Why didn't the referee not check him for that?
25:43 Speaker 05 JP Lehman immensely distracted in that way, or is he? That's called mixing business and more business. That's multitasking at its best right there.
25:56 Pablo Torre? I like how you got to turn your real personal trauma
26:01 Pablo Torre? from eye banking life into, yeah, physical trauma for someone else.
26:05 Speaker 03 The best art comes from a sense of real despair and tragedy.
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27:07 Speaker 03 People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.
27:18 Speaker 07 And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.
27:23 Speaker 01 One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.
27:29 Speaker 07 So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.
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28:26 Pablo Torre? And so, when this wrestling scout is coming to you and saying, "We need this, we want this, and we will never do this," which feels a bit like another blow to the ego, how does that make sense?
28:46 Speaker 03 I never expected to get even a shred of a compliment. You know, I was the old guy, am the old guy. I'm not the guy who looks like a wrestler. So the fact that he took time to say, "You should be everywhere," that's all I needed. But the addendum to that was, "Send me your social media. I will blast it out everywhere and get you looks and attention from promoters across the country." And that was the "oh, [bleep]" moment. Where, for years, for six years up until that point, this had been operating in the secrets and the shadows and the darkness. And I'd had a private social media account just for fun. And I was ready to push the nuclear button and shut the whole thing down
29:31 Speaker 03 should the wrong people, work, you know, social, whatever, that didn't understand it and wouldn't appreciate it, find out. So I was ready to just go dark. This would be a turning point. And it took me 24 hours to just wrestle with it. The idea of this being the JP Lehman initial public offering, JP Lehman going public. The whole reason I did this to begin with is you only live once. You better do the stuff you want to do. And since then, I haven't been lying about it. I certainly haven't been saying, no, that's not me. I don't do that. If someone asks, yeah, that's me. You should come to a show. And so it started to gain traction and real footing. But that JP Lehman IPO, so to speak, was a really difficult decision.
30:11 Pablo Torre? I still don't understand the math. Because financially speaking, I assume this is not a money-making endeavor for you?
30:18 Speaker 03 Not in the least. There is, I could probably make anywhere between 40 and 60 or 80 bucks a show. I often will ask the promoter politely, don't pay me with money, but give me time. So I've got three kids. I've got a wife, a social calendar that she sets up. And so if you allow me to come late and leave early, that's all I ask. Now, if someone wants to pay me more than that and real money, then certainly we'll talk. Not that 60 bucks a show is not real money, but this is not a lucrative money-making endeavor at this point.
30:52 Pablo Torre? I dare say that you are daring someone to make you give up your day job.
31:00 Speaker 03 I would say, if the phone rings, I will listen. But most importantly, I think this all works when both of these things happen. The day job feeds the character. Frankly, the character also impacts the day job. So we often have to go into the offices of private equity firms, CEOs, everything in between founders and pitch them on our wares. Like, why would you hire me? You've built this business your entire life. This is your baby. This is your life. Why would you hire me to go take you public or sell your company? And in that pitch, in that presentation to you, there is a fairy dust sprinkling of pro wrestling in there when I do it. What are the three points I want to get across? And what are the most catchy ways to deliver those points?
31:44 Speaker 03 And that is pro wrestling. So I think it all works together. So yeah, I'm open for business.
31:50 Pablo Torre? The parallel theory to all of this is that everything is pro wrestling.
31:54 Speaker 03 Could not be more true.
31:55 Pablo Torre? The, the, the skill set, the moral hazards, everything, fact fiction being blurred. All of this feels like the, the ultimate American metaphor.
32:03 Speaker 03 A hundred percent. And the, the one thing I would, for a, a pro wrestling novice, Pablo, what happens on screen and in the ring is a small fraction of why people are interested in pro wrestling. No one watches pro wrestling saying, oh, that guy punched that other guy, or that gal punched that other gal. That ship has sailed. The equivalent example, I think, is if you go to a Broadway show and you see, say, Hamilton.
32:25 Pablo Torre? Mm-hmm.
32:26 Speaker 03 And you see Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson and George Washington doing their thing on stage. That is part of the show. What pro wrestling has evolved into is that now if you go to Hamilton, or you go to a pro wrestling match or watch the show, you know that Lin-Manuel Miranda actually has beef with his understudy. That's not part of the show. But you know that, you know, the understudy hit on his girlfriend. And then there's all this drama around it that is not part of the show. That if you, if you think about why people really like wrestling in 2025, when they have all these options, they know it is scripted. Uh, it's because of the backstage under drama that kind of keeps people captivated, that enhances what you see on screen.
33:05 Pablo Torre? Right. What you're saying is that it's actually great for business if you've actually foreclosed on your opponent's home.
33:12 Speaker 03 Correct.
33:13 Pablo Torre? Very good. Your opponents, by the way, just like the, the Mortal Kombat totem pole of your last year, where it's like you're working your way through this system. Who are the, the video game bosses, so to speak, that you're encountering here such that, yeah, people can get a sense of what this looks like?
33:32 Speaker 03 So I've had some great matches over the last year, one of which was against a guy named Dan the Dad, based out of St. Louis. He's exactly what he sounds like. He comes to the ring in jean shorts, a tuck, you know, dockers, a belt, a tucked in polo, white New Balances, he, you know, glasses and a coffee mug. And he's your atta boy, go get him sport, uh, kind of, uh, gist. He had a phenomenal match last July, it was a ton of fun. Um, there's a guy I want to wrestle named Luigi Primo. He wears a, an apron. He's basically like a pizza, pizza chef.
34:02 Pablo Torre? I, I, I.
34:03 Speaker 03 You got it. You got it. Yeah, he twirls a pizza while he's wrestling, the same way that I do a cell phone.
34:07 Pablo Torre? I was gonna say, either this Luigi character is making pizzas or about to shoot you in the head.
34:13 Speaker 03 He's, he's the former, not the latter, exactly.
34:15 Pablo Torre? Um, noted.
34:16 Speaker 03 And so he's on, he's on the bucket list. One of my most recent matches was with a guy who's among the top three, I would say independent pro wrestlers, you know, not only in the country, but globally, a guy named Effy. And he is, you know, I don't even know how to describe it, but within wrestling and beyond, an LGBTQ icon. Um, he's beloved and he has built himself up and this incredible following. You know, he does professional wrestling on an independent level as a full-time job. That was the biggest match of my career. He is the current reigning and defending GCW, which if you think about this hierarchy of wrestling promotions across the country, it's WWE and AEW at the top. There's another one called TNA Wrestling that's close behind, a couple others.
34:59 Speaker 03 GCW, Game Changer Wrestling, based out of New Jersey, is the single top of the heap in independent, kind of quote, minor leagues, as you described it, pro wrestling. And Effy is their champion and Effy came to Charlotte, put his belt on the line against me. Um, with close to 600 people hanging from the rafters in this brewery that could barely, you know, barely hold that many.
35:18 Pablo Torre? So the fight poster, I'm imagining, kind of sells itself.
35:22 Speaker 03 Sells itself. You know, LGBTQ icon versus Wall Street fat cat. Styles make fights and that was a clash of styles for sure. I knew something was up or that this was an atypical show when in the second or third match, I just hear in the, we're just calling our match in the back and I just hear JP Lee and the whole crowd. And so I'm like, oh my God, like they're here, they're, they're here for me. And what that did was that shifted the way in which we had to set this match up.
35:54 Pablo Torre? Hmm.
35:55 Speaker 03 So typically I'm the heel, I'm the bad guy. There's a structure and a format for a bad guy versus a good guy. Uh, but in this case, we kind of realized in that moment, the structure may be flipped and that I may end up being a babyface, which is a good guy. And so we restructured the match to be a bit of, you know, a bit of a mix of me not purely being the heel.
36:21 Speaker 05 be denied JP Lehman is one of the rising stars of 2024 if not going to be a rising star in 2025 this man has a complete package
36:34 Speaker 03 and so we get in the match the match goes all around this venue through the crowd every which way the first thing we used was computer keyboards so JP Lehman's he's got a variety of kind of signature matches one of which is the the stock market street fight he's got one that he hasn't used yet but when you know when it's time for that next final boss is going to be the the hell in Excel um which is obviously a play on WWE's hell in a cell
37:00 Pablo Torre? but somehow scarier actually
37:02 Speaker 03 yeah I think it's just a modeling exam uh an Excel modeling exam it's probably pretty boring but this is a stock market street fight so we went out in the crowd somehow don't ask me how JP Lehman found two keyboards two computer keyboards uh what he did then was he I don't know if you know about this he popped the top on the keyboard and that is where you take the F1 key off of the keyboard
37:24 Speaker 05 oh wait a keyboard keyboard warrior JP Lehman is here he's trying to control off the lead Effy here
37:35 Speaker 03 everyone in Wall Street knows this
37:36 Pablo Torre? what is that why
37:37 Speaker 03 the first thing you do when you sit at your desk first two things you do you unplug your mouse because no one uses a mouse and you you you know take the F1 key off of your keyboard
37:48 Pablo Torre? I I'm totally unfamiliar with this ritual
37:52 Speaker 03 the F1 key is I believe the help key and you move so fast when you're an analyst and associate you move so fast with your keystrokes that you'll sometimes inadvertently hit the F1 key and that stops your progress
38:04 Pablo Torre? you're saying the world of banking can be so intense that you must amputate parts of the keyboard so it doesn't get in the way
38:13 Speaker 03 that is correct so I grabbed my keyboard and again a Venn diagram of one who appreciated it I hold it up and I pop the F1 key right off not a soul thought that was funny or enjoyed it or got it but it gave me a chuckle and we proceed to get into this lightsaber duel with keyboards and so I hit one he hits one we duck one and he ends it by you know popping it over my back and we move on to the next the next turned out to be just so happens that JP Lehman had brought his putter and a couple golf balls with him because you always got to be keeping your swing tight
38:51 Speaker 04 I think that's a golf club.
38:52 Speaker 03 And there's a sequence wherein Effie plants me with a snapmare, picks up the golf club and the golf ball and puts it but misses. Heavy, not an avid golfer, probably an 18 handicap, something like that. So JP Lehman boots him in the gut, gives him a snapmare, picks up the putter and the golf ball, and then goes right back at him and puts it right in the hole, so to speak.
39:18 Speaker 03 And so, big pop from the crowd, the crowd enjoyed that.
39:21 Pablo Torre? That's just, now that's just, that's pure athleticism.
39:23 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, that, it doesn't get, it doesn't get more. Yeah, just a specimen from an athletic perspective right there. I think shirt's off, you know, sweaty, but.
39:31 Pablo Torre? Draining putts.
39:32 Speaker 03 Draining putts, kicking butts, as JP Lehman likes to say. And then we move back in the ring for some garbage can, you know, door action. Place it right on Effie, I go up for my signature top rope senton, miss it, land on the garbage can, that hurt.
39:49 Speaker 04 Stock market, street fight, Eddie, that goes, Effie, oh my god! Go open, one, two, three!
39:58 Speaker 03 And then Effie puts me through a door for the one, two, three, followed by, he gave me a little surprise at the end of the match, too.
40:06 Pablo Torre? What was the surprise?
40:07 Speaker 03 He beat me, one, two, three, pin, and he leans over to me, he says, "Get up, I'm gonna give you a kiss." And we hadn't planned that one out, I was, you know, whatever, it's all show, I'm good with it. My wife, you know, wouldn't give a rip. And he lays a big one on me right in front of 600 people.
40:26 Speaker 04 Effie with the cape, oh my god!
40:31 Speaker 03 And it was a fun little, I guess, cherry on top, I guess. Well, I was not ready for it, we didn't script it, we didn't call it beforehand, but he planted one on me, yeah, right there in the ring.
40:42 Pablo Torre? Didn't have access to the help key in that scenario.
40:44 Speaker 03 No, that would have been helpful, but, you know, such is life. You live and you learn, you roll with it.
40:51 Pablo Torre? That is, you know what?
40:54 Pablo Torre? That's what progress looks like.
40:55 Speaker 03 That is, that is indeed, exactly.
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41:46 Pablo Torre? What I love about this is how hyper-specific these references are that are teaching me something about finance. Finance.
41:54 Speaker 03 Finance, yeah, it's finance.
41:55 Pablo Torre? I've been told by various bankers that I have been mispronouncing finance.
41:59 Speaker 03 Finance.
42:00 Pablo Torre? Which is a key distinction from finance, which is for poor people.
42:04 Speaker 03 Your word's not mine, but...
42:06 Pablo Torre? Finance is J.P. Lehman.
42:07 Speaker 03 Yeah, and then EBITDA, I mean, the... A refined palate calls it EBITDA.
42:12 Pablo Torre? EBITDA?
42:13 Speaker 03 EBITDA, right.
42:14 Pablo Torre? That's how you know...
42:15 Speaker 03 That's how you know your old-school kind of ex-Lehman is EBITDA. EBITDA is a little, you know... Doesn't really roll off the tongue the way EBITDA does.
42:24 Pablo Torre? Right, if people say croissant.
42:27 Speaker 03 Exactly, not croissant. How is that?
42:29 Pablo Torre? Yeah, no, look, the old money dripping off of your vocal cords.
42:34 Speaker 03 Exactly.
42:37 Pablo Torre? I love, I just love that I'm learning as much about finance. Finance.
42:41 Speaker 03 There you go.
42:41 Pablo Torre? As I am about wrestling. These two subcultures that seem like they are not, well, as per your thesis, not at all overlapping, except for you.
42:54 Speaker 03 They're not, except for me. But recently it started to shift. And the reason I say that is yesterday, walking down Park Avenue between 52nd and 53rd, out of nowhere, I had two guys, and I saw it in their eyes from a block away. And they walk up and they say, "Are you the wrestler?" That was a little bit of a, oh, man, kind of moment. And then there have been several airport, and this is, this is all is new and weird to me. And so this is not like a pat on the back. This is all, I'm not ready for this.
43:28 Pablo Torre? The stock chart, though.
43:29 Speaker 03 Oh, it's up and to the right.
43:30 Pablo Torre? Yeah, man, we're talking hockey stick [BLEEP].
43:32 Speaker 03 Exactly.
43:33 Pablo Torre? But wait, wait, wait, just, how, what's your reaction? How do you, you process this in such a way? Do you, how do you deal with people who now are stopping you in the, in the daytime?
43:45 Speaker 03 I deal with it the same way I typically deal with fans and spectators after the show, which is my normal bent, which is the JP Lehman facade goes away. Unless they want it, unless they give me a phone and say, "Call my brother," and go off, do a JP Lehman spiel on him. I'm, you know, I'm just happy to meet them, love to see them. I'm a little bit put off when it's on Park Avenue in New York. I'm not ready for that.
44:10 Pablo Torre? What's the airport like? What was that like?
44:12 Speaker 03 You know, I, I ran into someone who I don't know, who, you know, follows my social media. Has been to a couple of matches. And on an airplane from New York back to Charlotte, and the unfortunate thing was he was sitting in first class. And I was marching back to coach.
44:26 Pablo Torre? That.
44:27 Speaker 03 Yeah. So a little, a little part of JP Lehman died on that day.
44:35 Pablo Torre? Yeah, I can only imagine, like, to, to, to know that your medallion status has been outranked.
44:41 Speaker 03 It hurts. And that, that was a painful lesson, a painful day. But, you know, I am actively traveling as much as possible to get that concierge status back and live the gimmick, so to speak.
44:54 Pablo Torre? Are you ready, I mean, truly, the call that comes or the meeting that you're called into, where someone swings around their monitor, and it's you reading the newspaper on a turnbuckle shirtless, or staring into the camera on a pile of Legos, or sitting on top of a garbage can splayed out, or kissing a dude at the end of a match?
45:23 Pablo Torre? Do you know what you're gonna say?
45:26 Speaker 03 The whole way this has evolved, I think, has put me in a position now where I'm comfortable with it. I've gotten enough validation externally from people who've come up to me. And this is, I don't want to go too hokey or too corny, but people have come up and been like, man, you know, I had one guy, a guy I went to college with, he was like, I've got four kids. He's like, I got this job I hate. He was like, you know, you're living. He's like, this is awesome. And so for me, it's now shifted from this weird kind of shameful box into this real sense of identity and pride where, yes, I could certainly be a 40-year-old, you know, finance professional for whom my only passions are golf and watching the stock market.
46:06 Speaker 03 But I'm really proud that I've, my wife has too, and I have allowed myself to really chase this thing down. And that for me is the validating point of it, that if someone pulls it up and says, look at this, you idiot, or what are you doing? I'm not as upset about that anymore because I've had just too many people say, this is cool. This is awesome. This is, inspiring is too strong a word, but this is interesting.
46:29 Pablo Torre? Well, I think sometimes the highest compliment in finance, as well as a more artistic, creative pursuit, is to be jealousy inducing.
46:39 Speaker 03 What I think is probably more likely is that, and what I would be more, you know, proud of, is if someone leaves a show and say, I want to play guitar. Or I want to pick up an easel and a canvas and I want to paint, or I want to learn piano. These are the things I've always wanted to do. I'm convinced everyone has a quirk like this. This is a weird quirk and you either suppress it or you embrace it. And I feel like, and this is, I've thought this for forever. All too often, as we get older and get jobs and get families and get responsibilities, we suppress it and just put it out of our mind. And so I'm hopeful that other people will embrace it as well. I had a business school, I went to, you know, Duke undergrad, Northwestern for business school. And my business school roommate, one day she was like,
47:21 Speaker 03 I wish I loved anything as much as you love pro wrestling, which is an absolute, like, not a compliment. You know, like that is a weird thing to tell a 28, 30-year-old grown man in getting his MBA. But it definitely resonated with me. I was like, everyone has one of these things. They just need to find it and foster it and cultivate it and let it bloom.
47:41 Pablo Torre? My goal here is for someone to tell me, "I wish I loved anything as much as you loved listening to someone tell you that they got told that they wished that they loved anything as much as you loved wrestling."
47:56 Speaker 03 Well said, Pablo. Very well said.
48:12 Pablo Torre? The videos of you that I have seen, that I've enjoyed, that I have been wincing at at various points, it is very different from you. I've now sat across from you for quite a while, and I found you, despite having crashed the American economy, to be a delight. And I just wonder when I'm gonna get to meet JP Lehman, actually.
48:34 Speaker 03 You want to meet JP Lehman?
48:37 Pablo Torre? I mean, I thought that's what was happening here when I walked in.
48:41 Speaker 03 So you want to meet JP Lehman?
48:43 Pablo Torre? If we could arrange.
48:45 Speaker 03 You want to meet JP Lehman? You expect JP Lehman to show up here for free? Pablo Torre, JP Lehman doesn't get out of bed. JP Lehman doesn't catch a cold for less than a $4 million fee. You think I'm a circus monkey that's just gonna dance for you? Do I look like Larsa Pippin? Do I look like Jordan Hudson? Okay? Am I some quasi-celebrity that you're gonna latch on to for pseudo-relevance? Okay? Pablo Torre, I know you. I know your type. You are a barnacle on the hull of the passing frigate that is mainstream sports culture, and trust me, Pablo, I don't use your name and mainstream in the same breath lightly. You barely deserve that.
49:29 Speaker 03 Sir, you are a leech. You are an absolute leech, okay? Did you know that? So you're... Hold on a second.
49:39 Pablo Torre? The eye contact is disconcerting.
49:42 Speaker 03 Oh, no.
49:44 Speaker 03 I gotta take this. I'm sorry. Can you mind if I take this?
49:46 Pablo Torre? I don't.
49:48 Speaker 03 Bradford. Yeah, bro. Hey, it's JP. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Uh, no, no, I'm not busy right now. Uh, look, so capital markets are frothy, dry powder and private equities are robust. My team has 100% bandwidth, so let's get you a deal and find me a fee.
50:04 Pablo Torre? This feels very insulting.
50:05 Speaker 03 All right, racket club tonight?
50:07 Pablo Torre? In real ways.
50:08 Speaker 03 Sauna, shower, the triathlon, martini afterwards. All right, tell Chelsea and the kids I said hello. All right, yeah, let me clean up some trash. Ciao.
50:16 Pablo Torre? Okay.
50:17 Speaker 03 You're a leech, Pablo, okay? You hear me? You are an absolute leech. Look at me.
50:21 Pablo Torre? I can't.
50:22 Speaker 03 I am client facing, I am revenue generating, I am a fee machine, and I will knock that silver spoon out of your mouth and send you back to that ivory tower faster than you can spell EBITDA adjustment. Unless you forgot, Pablo, my name is J. P. Lehman. I am the Wall Street fat cat. I am the BSD of NYC. I am too big to fail. And you and your stupid little show can take that
50:53 Speaker 03 to the bank.
51:02 Pablo Torre? This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production.
51:08 Pablo Torre? And I'll talk to you next time.
Previous PTFO Exclusive: The NFL's Secret Collusion Case, Revealed Next Share & Tell & Somethingburgers with Domonique Foxworth and David Samson Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated