From Ronaldo to D-Wade: Athlete Statues, Reviewed by Pulitzer-Winning Art Critic Jerry Saltz

Not since the Greco-Roman period has sculpture mattered this much in sports. And Jerry Saltz — the Pulitzer Prize-winning senior art critic for New York magazine — has zero idea who Dwyane Wade is. Which is precisely why we asked the erstwhile Jewish Cowboy (we'll explain) to evaluate our athletic Bronze Age, from Michael Jordan to Cristiano Ronaldo. And that's before we get to "I Can't Believe It's Not Pablo (Butter on Gasbag, 2024)." Plus: the conscious uncoupling of art and money, sex workers in Jacksonville, how to make an enemy of envy, and why you can't be a vampire alone. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:45Pablo Torre?

  This episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out is brought to you by McDonald's. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Medium Fries and a Drink is now $8. And look, I've chased down a lot of strange stories, but nothing quite like what's inside a Quarter Pounder with Cheese. It is 100% fresh beef cooked right when you order it, with no artificial flavors, colors, fillers, or preservatives in the beef. The onions are hand-topped by someone who knows the perfect amount by memory. Two slices of cheese and a star, and two pickles side by side. So every bite gets both. And every time one's ordered, a cowbell sound rings in the kitchen. That's the grill master's cue to put a fresh patty on the grill. My move?

• 1:28Pablo Torre?

  QPC, fries and a drink after a long day of recording. That is my happy place. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Fries and a Drink, now $8 for a limited time only, only at McDonald's. For a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California. And for delivery, fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery. This episode is brought to you by Apollo.io. A lot of the stories on this show start the same way. Something that looks pretty simple turns out to be a mess, once you look under the hood. Well, it's no different in the sales world. Your team has a tool for finding prospects, a different tool for reaching out to them, and a third for keeping track of it all.

• 2:13Pablo Torre?

  On paper, that's a system. In practice, it's a salesperson spending the better part of the day copying names from one tab into another, and not much of it actually selling. Apollo.io is a platform that helps sales teams find the right buyers and reach out to them. It brings prospecting, outreach and follow-up into one place instead of several separate tools. It's used by sales teams of all sizes, from small businesses to larger organizations, and it's built for teams who want less manual busywork and more time with buyers. If your marketing and sales teams are trying to work from the same view of the customer, it's worth a look. Sign up for free at Apollo.io. That's Apollo.io. Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out.

• 2:58Pablo Torre?

  I am Pablo Torre and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  That is an absolute [BLEEP] work of art because it looks like a little mini statue on a idiotic store-bought trophy. It's crap.

• 3:16Pablo Torre?

  Right after this ad.

• 3:19Speaker 03

  You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  I only know how to use Instagram because a student signed me up and I lost my password, but as long as I can stay logged in, I love it. I don't know how to do anything, though. Like if I had to post this,

• 3:51Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  I'm unable to do it.

• 3:53Pablo Torre?

  Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, are we rolling, Chris?

• 3:56Speaker 02

  You want all of this.

• 3:57Pablo Torre?

  I unfortunately.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Okay. We'll start again when you're ready.

• 4:00Pablo Torre?

  Where's, we've started.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:02Pablo Torre?

  You've started, if that's okay with you.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 4:04Pablo Torre?

  The thing that I didn't realize until just a second ago, when you walked in here, is that you don't know your own password to your Instagram account?

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, do you know yours?

• 4:14Pablo Torre?

  I do.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  What is it?

• 4:16Pablo Torre?

  Well, we're gonna.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  But is it like?

• 4:17Pablo Torre?

  I would tell you, but it's my password to everything and it is very hackable.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  And it's like an old address or your?

• 4:24Pablo Torre?

  It's a thing that's very dear to me. I'm like talking to a mentalist, I feel like.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:28Pablo Torre?

  It's very dear to me. It's a childhood resonance.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Oh, got it, got it. I know what it is. It's okay.

• 4:33Pablo Torre?

  Yeah. Well, now, now I'm very insecure about what I project.

• 4:55Pablo Torre?

  For people who don't know Jerry Saltz, by the way, thank you so much for being here.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  It's a pleasure. I love, I've heard of you. I was thrilled to come here, but I've never listened because I, I don't.

• 5:05Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, well, this is the ideal audience for me for this specific episode, I think. Because I know of you as, of course, the guy who won the Pulitzer Prize for criticism in 2018.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:16Pablo Torre?

  I am a magazine nerd, a journalism practitioner, but also acolyte in an era where that's intimidating, Jerry.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  The last of our kind, all these magazines, The New Yorker, New York. No one knows what we are. I don't know what we do, but what we do, we do better than everybody else until there's no more need for it. And then we'll just go away.

• 5:43Pablo Torre?

  Yeah. How long away are we from that?

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Uh, it's been a good run. That's all I'll say. It's been a great run. Yeah, it's like the New York Jets, you know?

• 5:54Pablo Torre?

  Oh, God.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  They have to completely rethink everything. Uh, we hate them.

• 5:59Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  And screw them.

• 6:01Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, yeah. Are you a sports fan?

• 6:03Speaker 02

  I am a big football fan and a baseball fan. I'm a Yankee fan and the Jets and Giants. And that's it. And I'm a huge F1 nerd since the TV show and the pre-pandemic and all of that.

• 6:21Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But wait a minute. So Yankees wise, I, I am here to report that I was at game five of the World Series.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 6:29Pablo Torre?

  And that felt like a grotesque performance art at a certain point.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:37Pablo Torre?

  The fifth inning, just the worst inning in baseball history, arguably just so many self-inflicted wounds.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know what to say. I'm a fair weather fan. I used to go, we're boring your audience. Let's move on.

• 6:51Pablo Torre?

  I want to get to though, the idea that you as an authority on art and art criticism are also somebody who is online. The reason I started with your password is because you're also somebody with a giant, legitimately. Thriving community around your online presence. How do you describe your relationship with social media?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Follow me at JerrySalts. I did this by accident. A student signed me up for it, gave me the password, which I don't even know. I accidentally cannot get on the Twitter or the Facebook. Or no, I can't get on Facebook.

• 7:30Pablo Torre?

  You were banned from Facebook at one point.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Right, I had over a half million followers. I have like 600 or 700,000 now.

• 7:39Pablo Torre?

  But who's counting?

• 7:40Speaker 02

  But I am, because it's all I have.

• 7:44Pablo Torre?

  The Pulitzer Prize for criticism and about, you know, three quarters of a million people.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  For me, my second self is my first self. And what I mean by that is, my life is so boring and so limited. I see 25 or 30 shows a week. Painting shows, sculpture shows at museums, galleries, alternative spaces in New York. And then I go home and I become terrified that I have to write about these. I've not gone out to dinner with anybody in decades because I'm a social misfit on the one hand and have nothing to talk about.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  I would sit next to you, a big wig.

• 8:35Pablo Torre?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  And I would say, no, you are.

• 8:37Pablo Torre?

  The wig is large.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  And I would say, what art shows have you seen? And you would say, I haven't seen anything.

• 8:45Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  And then I would sit in silence.

• 8:47Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  So I stopped going. And my wife is the co-chief art critic for the New York Times.

• 8:55Pablo Torre?

  A true big wig, by the way.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  A true big wig. She is the real deal. If you want to read art criticism, read Roberta Smith. I'm sorry, I'm such a slow talker, but I'm from the Midwest. And so our lives together are at home.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  In fear, getting ready to write, sitting down, writing, writing, writing, and then going out and seeing more shows. So my online life is where all my fun is. It's where all my talk is.

• 9:31Pablo Torre?

  So why were you suspended from Facebook?

• 9:34Speaker 02

  Well, in around 2015, I was posting a lot of medieval manuscripts, which had been digitalized and rediscovered and were being seen for the first time. A lot of these are very violent, or the ones I would post. And I would post like a woman having her breasts cut off, a man being castrated. And I would make some wise guy comment, like, you know, this is 13th century, this is 8th century, and me coming into your studio if your work is no good.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  And it turned out that I was not violating any rules of the community. I got a lot of correspondence from Facebook. They said thousands of people from the art world protested.

• 10:29Pablo Torre?

  I mean, what you're describing is stuff that might be found in museums, right?

• 10:33Speaker 02

  It's great art.

• 10:34Pablo Torre?

  This is like high art.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Great art, but with my unfortunate commentary seemed, and this was just after Trump won. The first Trump regime. And Me Too had just gotten going. And at first, I didn't listen. I said, come on, this is great art. But after a while, they suspended me. And then I got back on after 30 days. But I also rethought it. I thought, if there's enough people telling me this is uncomfortable for them, I trust that. Men know [BLEEP] nothing about anything. We barely have an inner life.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  We think about seeing women naked. This is a straight man. We think about seeing a woman naked. We think about abstract problems, like, will there be time travel? And we think about traffic. Other than that.

• 11:35Pablo Torre?

  Cross out my will there be time travel question.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, see?

• 11:42Pablo Torre?

  But as for the other questions that I had prepared to ask Jerry Saltz, who is again simply one of the most respected authorities in the entire world of art, you should know that the premise for this episode first came about because the highest honor that sports bestows upon an athlete or a coach is in fact, a work of art. A statue. A statue which, as you may have been reminded recently, in the case of, say, Dwyane Wade, is not always as popular as the person it seeks to honor. And so I wanted Jerry and his Pulitzer and his three honorary doctorates and his decades of criticism to basically serve as PTFO's unbiased and completely overqualified art

• 12:27Pablo Torre?

  critic, as you'll see in a bit here. But first, I think you need to understand the origin of his truly incomparable point of view. I do want to establish that you yourself, I mean, is it were an artist? Is it a present tense thing? How do you conceive of yourself in that definitional way?

• 12:49Speaker 02

  I graduated at the bottom of my enormous high school class. I come from a very dysfunctional suburban Chicago family. I had rented an apartment in the city. The night I graduated high school, my parents didn't bother coming to our graduation. I came home, handed them my diploma, and I left home. And I moved into that apartment. I barely went back, ever, ever again. We were friends, but I just didn't care about them. They didn't care about me. It was all fine. I became an artist. I never went to school.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Anybody listening to this, I am a much bigger loser than even you. I have no degrees, never went to school. I really don't know anything. I became an artist. I moved to New York when I was 27. The same demons that you have, like before I came in here or last night, that said, "What are you doing? You can't do this. You don't know what you're doing. I mean, you're pulling the wool over everybody's eyes. You have a bad neck," or whatever it is.

• 14:08Pablo Torre?

  That is so far all true.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  All those things I listened to and I self-exiled from the art world and I became a long-distance truck driver. I still hung out in the art world. I would work for a couple of weeks. I would drive from New York to Florida or to Texas, occasionally to California.

• 14:32Pablo Torre?

  Did you have a handle, like the CB?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  It was the Jewish Cowboy. And I would get on the CB and I would go, "Shalom, partner. Let's talk about the late work of Richard Sarah." And none of them ever spoke to me. Either I'm a slow talker or they just recognized a rube. I did this for 10 years. All I did was drive back and forth. I never went anywhere. I never talked to anybody. I met a prostitute once and she said, "You want a date?" And I got terrified and I ran back to my hotel room in Jacksonville, Florida.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  That was on the third day I went to work. And I swore that from now on, I would sleep with every prostitute. And I never met another one. As you can see, I don't put off the vibe. I don't have the sex vibe. You're good-looking. People look at you and they want you. I'm old and short and bald and wear glasses. You don't know what it was like.

• 15:44Pablo Torre?

  And yet, in that story, that deeply bleak story that happened to you in Jacksonville, Florida, there is a lesson for me.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  What?

• 15:52Pablo Torre?

  By the end of this episode, I will determine exactly what I should take away as a lesson from your streak of prostitutelessness.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, nothing. And then I became so desperate and so lonely. I thought, I can't do this anymore. And I thought, what could I do? And I, I thought, I'll become an art critic. Now, at that point, I had never written a word in my life. I didn't read. I did nothing. I thought, oh, critics could get famous, sleep with women, and make a lot of money. None of those things are possible, being an art critic, at all.

• 16:33Pablo Torre?

  I was gonna say.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  No. So, I became an art critic and I started writing absolute bull****. And people seemed to like it. I would write, "The late commodified object of post-structuralist capitalism finds its liminal space between interrogating nature and culture." Blah, blah, blah.

• 16:56Pablo Torre?

  Interrogates a great art critic word, by the way.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  And which you should never use. Anyway, so I started writing that way. And slowly, um, I found my own voice. And at forty-one, I began working. So, all of you listening to this, you haven't even begun yet. Get your acts together, you big babies. It's hard. No one said it's gonna be easy. You have to work, work, work, work, work. And you have to show up. I'm afraid you can't be like me and hang back. I didn't hang back then. As much as I was unfit to hang out, and I could, I, I did it.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Every night, you have to sacrifice it all. You have to meet other people like yourself. You can't be a vampire alone. You have to have a coven, or whatever those things are called. And have each other to... Otherwise, you think you know things other people don't know, and that's unlikely. You know nothing. And you just need to hang out, get to work, and work in your own voice. You have to make an enemy of envy. You cannot look out and have your eyes scanning the world and always be comparing yourself to others.

• 18:26Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, I wanna, I wanna actually jump in on that because as an artist yourself, I do wanna reveal that I've done a minor bit of research, Jerry, into your oeuvre. But I jump in to say that you won the National Endowment of the Arts Grant. You were in museums, you were reviewed in art forum, you were in galleries.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:45Pablo Torre?

  So I wanna get to the idea of envy, but I also want you to describe to me what you were making, such that maybe those feelings were bubbling to the surface.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Well, I had lit upon one giant project. I think in retrospect, it was to protect me from having to come up with a new idea every time out. I was going to illustrate Dante's Divine Comedy, all 100 cantos or chapters. I was going to do 100 works on each of the 100 cantos. And it would be a 25-year project. I know, I'm nuts. It would be a 25-year project.

• 19:26Pablo Torre?

  That's incredible.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  It began two days before Easter 1975, before everybody here was born. It was supposed to end on Easter the year 2000. Okay, that's...

• 19:43Pablo Torre?

  Ambition is a word that comes to mind.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I made it as far as the third canto. The work was well received. But as you know, with all the great stuff happening to you, how old are you?

• 19:55Pablo Torre?

  I am 39 years old.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Already. You think I'm over the hill, I'm washed up.

• 20:01Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, my neck actually does hurt.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, mine hurts and I have aches and pains. Nothing will protect you. So all I can offer is to say to yourself, I'm not gonna look at others, the accomplishment of others. I'm gonna just look at myself. You are cause in the matter. You created your situation, not all of their success. So make an enemy of envy.

• 20:37Pablo Torre?

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• 21:22Pablo Torre?

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• 22:07Pablo Torre?

  Head to dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

• 22:15Pablo Torre?

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• 22:57Pablo Torre?

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• 23:38Speaker 04

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• 24:10Pablo Torre?

  Your view that to love art is to criticize it rigorously.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:18Pablo Torre?

  Do you feel like that is the default in your profession? How has that sort of maybe evolved itself over time?

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Anybody listening to this podcast will understand this. You would never look at every goddamn New York Jets game and say, "They're so great. Oh my God, their offensive line is off the charts fantastic." No, love means also being critical. Movie critics aren't supposed to like everything. Wine writers don't love every wine. But for some reason, art critics are expected to love everything. I would say that we're living in a period of culture where criticism has seemed to leave the building, meaning that everyone's afraid. I know what we're afraid of.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  We're afraid of being called racist, sexist, homophobes, xenophobes. So what's happened? I think through a lack of nerve, but also a dramatic shift in what criticism is in the present. Now, criticism holds things up. We put this woman artist on above us and we hold her up, or that queer artist above us. I'm all for that. The art world had closed doors for 50,000 years. Where are all the Asian artists in Western art history? There aren't any, because we didn't believe it was possible.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  I imagine sports is going through something similar, but on a corporate level, as it becomes more and more and more monetized.

• 25:57Pablo Torre?

  Oh, sure. Sure, sure, sure. I mean, by the way, speaking of money, right? We're talking in the week that I believe a Magritte piece just sold for $121 million?

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, or whatever the number is. It's an obscene amount of money. It's offensive. You could fund every rape kit left languishing on the shelves in America for 10 years for that one painting. But on the other hand, somebody wanted the painting. You only need two people to bid on something.

• 26:29Pablo Torre?

  That's right.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  And I hate auctions, but I accept them as part of our current reality. On the other hand, it leaves an opening for everyone else who isn't obsessed with money. We all want it. I get that. We're supposed to be jealous of everyone making 59 million. But it leaves an opening for art to get on with its business. And it's doing just great, having huge hits of what Werner Herzog called ecstatic truths, which means opening spaces for consciousness, to step outside yourself, to slow time down. There's still space for that, but not out there in the market.

• 27:15Pablo Torre?

  So where does art that is meant to pay tribute fit into your worldview on how art can be beautiful and rigorous and a story in and of itself? Because- Jerry, you famously, I am not overstating this, you critiqued a presidential portrait of Barack Obama.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:37Pablo Torre?

  By Kahinde Wiley.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:39Pablo Torre?

  Very famous artist himself.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  I said it was [BLEEP]. I said it was [BLEEP]. Because, listen, I loved the Amy Sherald portrait of Michelle Obama, mind you. So these two paintings were presented at the same time. Kahinde Wiley's painting is [BLEEP] because it's photorealism. Good for photorealism. It projects an image. You get a picture, you project it, you paint it perfect. You send it to China, they can do it. Kahinde has his studio fill in a cuckoo background and sets Barack on an African chair.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  I guess that's his contribution. And as a painting, it is completely unoriginal. As an image of Obama, it's unlike every other presidential portrait ever made.

• 28:40Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  So it depends how I judge it as a thing, not as what the artist says it is.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  My wife says no artist owns the meaning of their own work. In other words, each of us, as Oscar Wilde said, when we read a book, we're not reading the author. You're reading yourself. When you read Dante, you are reading yourself into Dante, into Shakespeare, into Mozart, into Jay-Z, into Beyonce, whoever. The other portrait was much better of Amy Sherald.

• 29:18Pablo Torre?

  The Kahinde Wiley portrait for just those who did not-

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Do you like it?

• 29:21Pablo Torre?

  Well, so here's the thing that-

• 29:23Speaker 02

  It's realistic.

• 29:24Pablo Torre?

  So I went to see his work at the Brooklyn Museum at one point. And I was struck immediately by the concept, his sort of thing, which is, "I'm going to transpose black figures into regal," and you're nodding because of course you're familiar with this, but there is a, there's an ornate regal aspect to the background, to the filigrees, to all of it. And I'm the guy, by the way, who saw that and I was like, "I'm gonna buy the book at the gift shop."

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Good.

• 29:51Pablo Torre?

  Like, this is cool.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Good. And then, I guess my issue is, in retrospect, is my evolution in taste happened,

• 29:59Pablo Torre?

  is that he just kept on doing it.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:02Pablo Torre?

  Again and again and again, and it became formulaic, admittedly.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:06Pablo Torre?

  And it sort of felt like he had one idea and he managed to execute it a zillion times.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  Bingo. And you know what? There are a lot of artists like that. There's, I can tell you their names if you want to go. They will never make you go deep. What they'll make you do is they'll tell you what you already know and they'll tell you the same thing over and over again. And that's very reassuring. I don't look to art to be reassured. That's also saying, "Oh, a black woman could be Napoleon." That's a cool thought, but it would be cooler if you could make it a cooler painting.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  And he can't do it. And other artists do.

• 31:02Pablo Torre?

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• 31:47Pablo Torre?

  makes every part of the process easy. So visit Cozy today, that's C-O-Z-E-Y dot com, and make yourself at home. Did you know over 75% of Americans are chronically dehydrated? And 90% don't get enough potassium, which is a key electrolyte responsible for energy, muscle function, and clear thinking? Well, that's why you can be drinking water all day and still feel tired, or foggy, or just off. And while most hydration packs really load up on the sugar, Instant Hydration contains zero sugar. There's no glucose spike and no sugar crash. And that is really important to me, because it not only gives me electrolytes without loading me up with sugar, but it also helps me avoid that late afternoon crash.

• 32:32Pablo Torre?

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• 33:15Pablo Torre?

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• 33:58Pablo Torre?

  Head to talkiatory.com/ptfo to complete the short assessment and get matched with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's T-A-L-K-I-A-T-R-Y dot com slash P-T-F-O to get matched in minutes. Talkiatory.com/ptfo.

• 34:22Pablo Torre?

  Do you know who Dwyane Wade is?

• 34:24Speaker 02

  I do not know. Who is Dwyane Wade?

• 34:28Pablo Torre?

  This is perfect.

• 34:32Speaker 00

  Tonight, there's a mystery brewing in South Florida.

• 34:35Pablo Torre?

  I can't believe that. Who is that guy?

• 34:37Speaker 00

  It's supposed to be a statue of the man asking that question. Miami Heat legend, Dwyane Wade. But the internet is not quite so sure. That is not D Wade. That's Shannon Sharpe, The Rock. Like, what's that? Outside the Heat home arena Sunday, the team unveiled this new tribute to the man known as D Wade. While there's plenty of debate about whose face that is, when you look at the whole statue, it's hard to see anybody else. A figure in a Heat jersey on top of the scorer's table? Some will tell you that's gotta be Dwyane Wade. With aid, Wade picking this iconic moment from his game-winning steal and shot against the Chicago Bulls in 2009. Wade puts it up for the win.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  So that's Dwyane Wade. Great, great athlete.

• 35:23Pablo Torre?

  Yes, Dwyane Wade is maybe the greatest player in Miami Heat history. He is the guy posing as such. Fist-balled, mouth open.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:35Pablo Torre?

  Ferocious.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:37Pablo Torre?

  And it raises the question of when you are making a statue, a work of art that is meant to be a tribute to someone.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:48Pablo Torre?

  And the first response that everybody has is, "That [bleep] doesn't look like Dwyane Wade."

• 35:54Speaker 02

  That's true. It doesn't look anything like him. What I'll say is, that is an absolute [bleep] work of art because it looks like a little mini statue on an idiotic store-bought trophy. And it's just got, there's nothing to it other than the pose. So you wanna, and he looks like The Rock. He looks white, which is fine with me. But, you know, it has no character. It has no ambiance. It has no internal scale. It has no feel for its material.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  It found a photograph, scanned it most likely, or some [bleep] and reproduced it. It's crap.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  How much did they pay for it? A hundred dollars, two hundred?

• 36:50Pablo Torre?

  We don't know exactly what was paid, Jerry.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Do you like it?

• 36:55Pablo Torre?

  I, I, I don't. I [BLEEP]. But I also want to point out, when it comes to resemblance.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 37:02Pablo Torre?

  Okay? How important is it for the statue of somebody to be actually a, a photo realistic depiction of them in real life?

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Well, it's not that important to me. I can see that it could be important to people who worship that person. But I would remind all of those worshippers and fans that all the different pictures of Jesus that they've seen are equally realistic and equal fictions. That they're idealized or de-idealized, or maybe you like Francis Bacon's exploding Jesus, maybe that speaks to you. What this says is, I wanted to be a realist sculptor and I found a photograph and I made

• 37:57Speaker 02

  it without paying much attention to it at all. Other than the, the signature pose.

• 38:04Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  So in the next generation, we'll look at that sculpture and see metal. They won't see a person, they won't see a likeness, they'll see a material, and even the material isn't that interesting.

• 38:21Pablo Torre?

  Right, the bronze.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  That's all they're gonna see, I promise you. It looks like a lot of academic sculpture. You know, the mouth is open, I can see the teeth, somebody got in there and filed them down. Good on them, good technique, I guess. That's good, I would pay four hundred dollars for that and put it in a backyard, at best. There's nothing wrong with that, that's fun.

• 38:49Pablo Torre?

  Can I, does it, does it do anything for you if I play a video of the artist's response to a larger reaction?

• 38:58Speaker 02

  I'd love to hear it.

• 38:59Speaker 05

  I would say to anybody that, that's, you know, even slightly critical, come to Miami. Come to Miami, take a look at it in person and you'll be very pleasantly surprised. Both of the sculptures artists defending their work, saying Wade visited with them

• 39:11Pablo Torre?

  Adding they used a computer to get the details right.

• 39:15Speaker 06

  He approved it on the site. He approved it in the photos and he approved himself. And if somebody else doesn't approve him, he can go to Dwayne himself.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Of course he did. Okay.

• 39:28Pablo Torre?

  So that's Omri Amrani, I should say, the co-sculptor, I guess, they have some sort of, uh.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  It looks like art by committee. That's what it is. It looks like art by more than one person with no touch, no hand, only an idea. They're not even artists, those two guys. They're entrepreneurs. They're scammers. They don't know it. Listen.

• 39:53Pablo Torre?

  I feel about to say allegedly, I guess, in there somewhere, but I don't want to step on your critique.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  They're, to me, I allege that they might be scammers in this sense. That Oscar Wilde said, "All the worst poetry is sincere." So what, that they sincerely wanted to make this realistic? Good on them. I didn't take that away from them. I don't think it looks like anybody.

• 40:21Pablo Torre?

  It doesn't look like Dwyane Wade at all.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  No, and that's fine. Dwayne Reed liked it and he's cool with it. And could they have made something magnificent? Yes, they could. But they could have also made something much worse. It could have been a piece of string, you know, tied to a chain, some bull That happens as well. So this is a happy medium between thinking and non-thinking that looks like a photograph in three dimensions.

• 40:55Pablo Torre?

  What do you think of this sculpture?

• 40:59Pablo Torre?

  Are you familiar with this work?

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Is that Rocky?

• 41:01Pablo Torre?

  This is the, this is the Rocky statue?

• 41:04Speaker 02

  I have stood there. I've posed with him. What I want to say is that some of the greatest sculpture ever made was made in Greece and Rome of athletes.

• 41:15Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 41:16Pablo Torre?

  Discus throwers and.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, this.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  As much as I love the first Rocky movie.

• 41:23Pablo Torre?

  Oh, I mean, by the way, the kids out there should know, this was an Oscar-worthy.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:27Pablo Torre?

  Screenplay.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:29Pablo Torre?

  Performance, all of it.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:30Pablo Torre?

  Actually good.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, watch it. You know, it has a happy ending, whatever. But the point is, as a work of art, it only goes to the Wade Johnson place. You could put the name Wade Johnson on this, it would be the same. The pose has.

• 41:48Pablo Torre?

  Oh, the Dwyane Wade, you mean?

• 41:49Speaker 02

  The Dwyane Wade.

• 41:50Pablo Torre?

  I love that you have no [bleep] idea who Dwyane Wade is. I mean that so sincerely.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  I'm sorry.

• 41:54Pablo Torre?

  You're the, you're, you're the most pure sample that we could have for this exercise, so I love it.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  So, this is another, is that you? No. I love. That's Sylvester Stallone. He's as tall as I am.

• 42:08Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  I love him. He's a big [bleep] Trump guy, but he, he's done good work. And you know what?

• 42:15Pablo Torre?

  That's true. All of that's true.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  It's fine. You know, Dwayne Reed and, and, and that guy, he, he, they contributed a lot to the culture.

• 42:24Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  They should get statues of themselves.

• 42:28Pablo Torre?

  Sure.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  You should. I just hope that yours will be better.

• 42:32Pablo Torre?

  Yeah. I would, I would like to submit.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  More. Let's see more.

• 42:37Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, can we, can we get Michael Jordan on the screen, please?

• 42:39Speaker 02

  The greatest of all.

• 42:41Pablo Torre?

  So this is how they commemorated the greatest, his airness, outside of the United Center or the Chicago.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  I love the figure underneath him. Can I see the, the close-up of the, uh, humunculus beneath him? Wow.

• 42:58Pablo Torre?

  There is a humunculus aspect to the person he is dunking over.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  That, the, the figure underneath Michael is great. And he's got an extra face. His face has fallen off. It's like an arm with like 70 figure. I, I mean, here's what's great. The pose of this and the juxtaposition of the super realist, this is better for one reason. The idea of the Baroque means, the Baroque back in the 1600s was the invention of movies, of the cinematic, dramatic, melodramatic motion.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Action, action. This is an action shot. This is a frozen moment in time. The basketball is just on Michael's fingertips.

• 43:51Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  His left hand is giving himself balance. His feet are spread out for maximum height and balance. The person underneath him becomes meaningless.

• 44:03Pablo Torre?

  Right, as if they are every person he's ever jumped over.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  It's you. That's mortal reality, immortal reality. Uh, again, the realism is what it is. That's not bad. He's like, his hair under his arm, he's, uh, his, his lip is being clenched. He's like staring at the target. There's stuff going on there.

• 44:27Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  Who made that one?

• 44:28Pablo Torre?

  So this was one of the two guys that made the Dwyane Wade sculpt.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  He, his older work is better.

• 44:35Pablo Torre?

  Yeah. No, I agree.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:37Pablo Torre?

  I agree. This is, this is an amazing statue.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:40Pablo Torre?

  That I can imagine, uh, Dwyane Wade and Miami Heat, or maybe like, can we get our version of that? And they, and they brought him the thing that we evaluated.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  And that's what makes you a great commentator and podcaster. You understand the quality has been determined in this case by the market picking something the market already picked.

• 45:05Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  Okay? And you're getting that self-reiterative, um, smoothing out and deadening that that will do.

• 45:16Pablo Torre?

  Yeah. Can we just show you Brandy Chastain for a second? Because Brandy Chastain, all-time American women's soccer player, and this is her Hall of Fame plaque, uh, the Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame. Uh, and this is her in real life.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  What's the sport that Brandy?

• 45:30Pablo Torre?

  Soccer.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  I would call it a travesty of, uh, mimosis, meaning it doesn't look anything mimetic art.

• 45:39Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Cause it doesn't look even remotely, they've taken a, a, a thin woman, a blonde, and made her into a Gertrude Stein.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  And for that, that's kind of interesting. Or, you know, like a Russian policewoman, but.

• 45:58Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, so Eleanor Roosevelt, perhaps.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.

• 46:03Pablo Torre?

  No.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  If I were Brandy, I might be a little miffed, but, you know, I don't think athletes even think that way.

• 46:11Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, her view was, I think, to your point, quote, "It's not the most flattering, but it's nice."

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's not untrue.

• 46:19Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  It's good to be remembered.

• 46:20Pablo Torre?

  Right, not great is that she also looks like Gary Busey, I guess.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  God, yes, that's the grimace. I don't know where the grimace came from.

• 46:29Pablo Torre?

  The, I think it's like the rictus of what is her left cheek on the right side of the image, just like the indentation feels Bucian.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, you got it. It's a picture of Gary Busey. They could change it out.

• 46:44Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, yeah. And then, lastly, the last, I think, case study for you is just Cristiano Ronaldo, who I presume you have no idea.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  I do know him.

• 46:52Pablo Torre?

  Oh, okay.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Because soccer is a great sport and American men can... What?

• 46:58Pablo Torre?

  So, so this is Ronaldo.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  That could be a great piece of folk art. That is a great piece of [bleep] up, super crazy, manneristic, meaning the neck is about a foot and a half long. The hair is standing up and out, the face is completely crooked, the eyes are asymmetrical.

• 47:21Pablo Torre?

  The eyes are doing a lot here.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  He's looking at with sheer madness. I'd love to meet that artist. I mean, that is wild.

• 47:31Pablo Torre?

  The artist's name is Emmanuel Santos.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  That's the artist?

• 47:34Pablo Torre?

  That is Ronaldo.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 47:35Pablo Torre?

  That is Cristiano Ronaldo. So, by the way, does this statue look more like the artist who made it? Or Cristiano Ronaldo, fame is one of the most angular, beautiful, symmetrical faces in human history? Your mileage may vary.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  That's well said. I think if we saw the picture of the artist, we don't know. But that is one great sculpture. Whoa!

• 47:56Pablo Torre?

  So you love this one?

• 47:57Speaker 02

  Not of Ronaldo. It is not Ronaldo. That's fine.

• 48:01Pablo Torre?

  But in a vacuum, you love this specific work?

• 48:05Speaker 02

  I would tell that artist to push all these ideas, get rid of the computer, get rid of the realism, and just go for it.

• 48:13Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  That's mad [bleep].

• 48:16Pablo Torre?

  There's one more thing we'd like you to evaluate.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:20Pablo Torre?

  If you can hold.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:22Pablo Torre?

  Until after the break.

• 48:37Pablo Torre?

  Jerry, you've stuck around very generously, and we brought in Sophie from the other side of the glass.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 48:42Pablo Torre?

  Um, because this is a, an original work that I have not seen. Uh, so we'll be viewing this for the first time together, genuinely.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 48:51Pablo Torre?

  Not a bit, I have not seen this.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  I'll let you react to it first.

• 48:54Pablo Torre?

  Okay, um, I want to give some identifying information. This is by Jim Victor and Marie Pelton, a couple from Pennsylvania. Their chosen medium is, uh, butter.

• 49:07Pablo Torre?

  And, and Sophie, will you unveil? Absolutely. The sculpture.

• 49:14Pablo Torre?

  Very delicately from the, I mean.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  What do you think?

• 49:23Pablo Torre?

  I.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  It's facing him now. I know what I think.

• 49:28Pablo Torre?

  I don't know if I've ever felt the feeling that I'm feeling right now.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  What are, what are some of the thoughts that you're having when you look at the face?

• 49:36Pablo Torre?

  It's hard not to think that this person is, uh,

• 49:42Pablo Torre?

  more handsome than me.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:46Pablo Torre?

  I should probably reveal for the audio audience that my staff has commissioned a butter sculpture of me.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Wow. Um. It's larger than life size, slightly larger.

• 50:01Pablo Torre?

  It's really impressive. It's, I, the, the, the texturing of my hair.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:09Pablo Torre?

  I want to say, I didn't, I don't know if there's a better, I don't know if bronze can do what butter is doing right now. There is a bit of a, I'm smizing, I think.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  I gotta come over.

• 50:20Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, let's rotate, let's rotate the microphone for, uh,

• 50:23Speaker 02

  How do I get this over there?

• 50:24Pablo Torre?

  berry salt. I think you can just rotate it this way.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  All right, I'm coming around.

• 50:28Pablo Torre?

  This is **** incredible. Like, it is covered in butter, this whole base.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Wow. See, I thought you looked like JFK. Here, touch it.

• 50:41Pablo Torre?

  It's so-

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Touch the sculpture, touch it.

• 50:43Pablo Torre?

  Jerry and I are touching it and it's legitimately-

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:47Pablo Torre?

  Dairy.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  It's butter.

• 50:49Pablo Torre?

  It's legit dairy.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  It's Naples yellow butter. You have a great open collar, a t-shirt.

• 50:58Pablo Torre?

  Yep, yep, yep.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  Do you have a mustache?

• 51:00Pablo Torre?

  I do, in this, I have what I aspire. I have the mustache of my dreams. Butter me has the facial hair I desire. They were generous with a healthy, a healthy serving above my upper lip.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  You look like a statesman, actually.

• 51:19Pablo Torre?

  I do.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:21Pablo Torre?

  I look like I am more in charge than I feel day to day. Have you ever evaluated a butter sculpture before?

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Well, I'm a huge fan of butter sculpture, being from the Midwest.

• 51:34Pablo Torre?

  Oh, that's right.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have, in Wisconsin, there's a whole tradition of it. I'm mad for it. I also look at ice sculptures. A corn sculpture is a big favorite of mine. This is just lovely. I think it's just lovely. I want to touch it a lot. I'm gonna touch it a little.

• 51:59Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, I mean, if you were-

• 52:00Speaker 02

  Put his head next to it. Let me get my phone and take its picture.

• 52:05Pablo Torre?

  Jerry's going to take a photo of this.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  And I'll make you famous or something like that.

• 52:10Pablo Torre?

  I'm staring at myself in the glass-

• 52:14Speaker 02

  You are, what do you see?

• 52:16Pablo Torre?

  -next to my butter self.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  There.

• 52:19Pablo Torre?

  If there was no one else around in this room, there's not a lot I wouldn't do to this butter sculpture of me. Butter me and I would explore each other.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's a great, quiet, mute, stately, uh, object.

• 52:37Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, I feel like, um, something good has happened that I don't entirely want to, uh, celebrate, but in, inside.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  You have to celebrate this.

• 52:48Pablo Torre?

  Inside, I am overjoyed, is like, in, in my eyes, they're telling a story.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  What's the story being told?

• 52:56Pablo Torre?

  These are the eyes of someone who is encountering.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:00Pablo Torre?

  Maybe this is literal, maybe this is figurative, Jerry. They're encountering their first prostitute.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 53:07Pablo Torre?

  In Jacksonville, Florida, and they're thinking to themselves, "I think it's time."

• 53:13Speaker 02

  God, you're a bigger man than I am. Um, is there a way to preserve this?

• 53:19Pablo Torre?

  Apparently, we have a couple of hours.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Okay, I want you to document it, cause it'll get better.

• 53:26Pablo Torre?

  Mmm.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  It'll get much better as it loses its structural integrity and becomes, uh, more abstract and melts. There's an artist named Urs Fisher.

• 53:41Pablo Torre?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah, a Swiss visual artist.

• 53:43Speaker 02

  And put in candle sculptures. It's melt, huge melted candle sculptures.

• 53:50Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  Document that, you'll get famous, and you can get the hell out of the podcast game.

• 53:57Pablo Torre?

  Oh, God. I, uh, I've learned, I found out so much today, Jerry.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  You do.

• 54:06Pablo Torre?

  Mostly that maybe you actually can buy love.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  You got that for free. You didn't need anything. You just needed your beautiful self and art.

• 54:21Pablo Torre?

  Jerry Saltz.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 54:23Pablo Torre?

  I'm gonna remember this day for the rest of my life.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  I will too.

• 54:39Pablo Torre?

  This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.

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