The Last Bromance: How Wrestling Corrupted the NBA Finals

Did Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone blow the 1998 NBA Finals by promoting their pro-wrestling match... on the court?! Should there be an asterisk?! Is it time for Michael Jordan to relinquish the throne?! Correspondent Neil Punsalan enters a sports marketing wormhole to present Pablo with a box full of evidence, grill eyewitnesses, and put to rest — once and for all — if The Mailman always rings twice. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Pablo Torre?

  This episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out is brought to you by McDonald's. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Medium Fries and a Drink is now $8. And look, I've chased down a lot of strange stories, but nothing quite like what's inside a Quarter Pounder with Cheese. It is 100% fresh beef, cooked right when you order it, with no artificial flavors, colors, fillers, or preservatives in the beef. The onions are hand-topped by someone who knows the perfect amount by memory, two slices of cheese and a star, and two pickles, side by side. So every bite gets both. And every time one's ordered, a cowbell sound rings in the kitchen. That's the grill master's cue to put a fresh patty on the grill. My move?

• 0:42Pablo Torre?

  QPC, fries and a drink after a long day of recording. That is my happy place. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Fries and a Drink, now $8 for a limited time only, only at McDonald's. For a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California. And for delivery. Fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery. This episode is brought to you by Apollo.io. A lot of the stories on this show start the same way. Something that looks pretty simple turns out to be a mess once you look under the hood. Well, it's no different in the sales world. Your team has a tool for finding prospects, a different tool for reaching out to them, and a third for keeping track of it all.

• 1:27Pablo Torre?

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• 2:11Speaker 01

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• 2:56Pablo Torre?

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  We can do a double team, triple team, but the NWO is the new team of the future. Sweet.

• 3:14Pablo Torre?

  Right after this ad.

• 3:21Pablo Torre?

  We've had many strange people on this show.

• 3:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:23Pablo Torre?

  We've had an 86-year-old grandpa. Recently, we had a NASA scientist. We had a former federal prosecutor, a US senator, Action Bronson, and well beyond, and for legal reasons, I can't even say so much how beyond we tend to go. This, though, might be a new raising of the bar for what we're about to unveil here for people.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  I'm really excited to make my case.

• 3:48Pablo Torre?

  Thank you for doing this, Neil Punsalan. An honor to have you on the show.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  I'm super excited. I came in with the idea of if I could just get one of the people that listen to your show, one of your devoted fan base, if I could get just one person to believe me, and I'm now at the point, I'm so excited, there's an electricity coursing through my body. I now firmly believe by the end of this, the NBA is going to put a hit on me. I think they're coming after me.

• 4:11Pablo Torre?

  Okay, so to explain why it is that I'm not even going to push back on that right now, we got to explain that this is a story fundamentally about two things that you love. And one of those things I don't know a lot about as much as I'm surrounded by it all the time now. And that thing is pro wrestling. This is a metaphor for a lot about our civilization, but in this case, it is concretely something that had collided, it turns out, with the NBA. As recently as last year.

• 4:46Pablo Torre?

  This Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Halliburton thing.

• 4:53Speaker 03

  The WWE is smart enough to use people that love wrestling and they've done it for years. And so you have this sports moment that helps elevate WWE, helps elevate the NBA as well. And it's a great piece of sports marketing.

• 5:10Pablo Torre?

  There was a steel chair in that. Again, that was an example of the NBA being brought into the ring.

• 5:15Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 5:18Pablo Torre?

  This story though, is the inverse.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  A hundred percent the inverse. And that's why it's so much more powerful because it is not necessarily athletes just showing up at a professional wrestling event. It is professional wrestling bleeding into NBA games.

• 5:33Pablo Torre?

  So where in the history of the NBA finals, which are happening now, by the way, in the present tense as we speak, are we?

• 5:43Speaker 03

  Here we go.

• 5:49Speaker 03

  The 98 finals, obviously, Chicago Bulls, Utah Jazz, Michael Jordan, Karl Malone, and most importantly, Bob Costas and Roundball Rock.

• 6:02Pablo Torre?

  In my childhood memory.

• 6:09Pablo Torre?

  It is Bob Costas saying, "Jordan, open."

• 6:16Pablo Torre?

  And then we see it. We see the most famous shot in basketball history.

• 6:18Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 6:19Pablo Torre?

  The most famous NBA finals arguably ever.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  For certain.

• 6:23Pablo Torre?

  It's the second three-peat for Jordan's Bulls.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  That is the way everyone remembers the 98 finals, but if you look at the 98 finals now through a different lens, there was an apocryphal story in 1998 of Rodman skipping practice. I remembered hearing something about it as a kid, and then when I watched The Last Dance, you see it come to life and it's real. So Dennis Rodman ran off after game three?

• 6:48Speaker 04

  He took a detour from playing the Bulls to become a wrestler with Hulk Hogan.

• 6:56Pablo Torre?

  They literally have footage of Dennis Rodman running from the media.

• 7:00Speaker 05

  You know, like I said, like it's in a playoff game, I want to go wrestle. If I did this, I go over here. If I do that, I gotta go do this, you know? They gonna get to 100% when I'm on the court.

• 7:08Speaker 03

  This is, again, just another fantastic storyline within this 98 finals. Rodman skipping practice, going to Auburn Hills where he used to play with the Pistons.

• 7:18Speaker 06

  Dennis Rodman is here at the Palace of Auburn Hills tonight for Nitro.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Ends up hitting Diamond Dallas Page over the head with a chair.

• 7:25Speaker 06

  My goodness, that was Rodman!

• 7:27Speaker 03

  And for me, became something that as I watched it, I went, wait a minute, who's doing the documentary on Rodman skipping that practice? And becoming a professional wrestler? That's what I wanted to know more about.

• 7:40Pablo Torre?

  So I should say that our friend Jason Hare, director of The Last Dance, also has sat in the chair you're sitting at.

• 7:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 7:46Pablo Torre?

  Dennis Rodman skipping practice was not the reason I wanted to do this with you, because, again, it already been done.

• 7:55Speaker 03

  Just for a moment, if I might have the floor. By the time I finish this episode, at worst, what I'm going to present you, you will see this as the greatest sports marketing moment you've ever seen. At best, I believe I'm putting my thumb on the scale and forever affecting the GOAT debate. Who's the greatest basketball player of all time? You're never going to see it the same way ever again.

• 8:39Pablo Torre?

  The unifying theory of modern American life now is that everything is pro wrestling. The presidency is wrestling.

• 8:49Speaker 06

  The hostile takeover of Donald Trump on Vince McMahon has happened at WrestleMania 23.

• 8:56Pablo Torre?

  The US Department of Education is actually wrestling.

• 9:00Speaker 06

  CEO of World Wrestling Entertainment, Linda McMahon. Thank you.

• 9:11Pablo Torre?

  Even my beef with Bill Simmons, I am told, is wrestling.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  Pablo Torre is here. We're beefing.

• 9:21Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 03

  Big beef.

• 9:22Pablo Torre?

  What camera can I look into just to stress how angry I am?

• 9:26Speaker 03

  It's such a beef.

• 9:28Pablo Torre?

  But with the Indiana Pacers now playing the Oklahoma City Thunder in the NBA Finals, what we wanted to do here was dive into what we believe to be the most underappreciated actual wrestling crossover in the history of sports. And to do it, I needed to give a little bit of work to Neil Punsalan, the only comedy writer in the world who has made television shows with both Norm MacDonald and also Marshawn Lynch. But the most crucial point on Neil's resume, even more than the fact that Neil happens to be half Filipino, is the fact that he has watched more pro wrestling than I ever have and ever will, particularly over the last 25 years.

• 10:12Pablo Torre?

  Because Neil's theory here about the 1998 NBA Finals turns out to not be fanfiction. This is gonna be a story about sports business and billionaires and backroom deals.

• 10:27Pablo Torre?

  And also chairs.

• 10:30Pablo Torre?

  Lots of chairs.

• 10:34Pablo Torre?

  So where our paths diverge as Filipino-Americans who remember like dial-up internet is that I went to grade school with lots of wrestling fans, but never really became one myself. I'm actually shocked by the degree to which professional wrestling is relevant to my line of work now.

• 10:53Speaker 03

  Yes, totally.

• 10:56Speaker 03

  Professional wrestling is like silent film.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  You could turn off the audio and kind of follow along, and it plays everywhere. It plays at every age. It plays in every country. It is these men who are putting their lives and their well-being on the line to act out this soap opera. It's just insanity. I love it. Let's get ready to suck it.

• 11:24Pablo Torre?

  What is a suck-it gesture if not Charlie Chaplin?

• 11:32Speaker 03

  Can I go in a little bit into the history of wrestling here?

• 11:34Pablo Torre?

  I know so little about it, so please.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  Let me tell you a little bit about it. Pro wrestling used to be in regional factions. So there would be a Memphis team, there'd be a Georgia team. And all of the different little sort of families were spread out across the country. Coming up next on Superstation WTBS, it's exciting championship wrestling from Georgia.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  Vince McMahon buys the World Wrestling Federation from his father.

• 12:01Speaker 07

  Indeed, it's the dawning of a new era. And this magnificent building, but yet an ending of another era.

• 12:07Speaker 03

  And then decides, like Michael Corleone from The Godfather, to roll up all of the factions and dominates the pro wrestling landscape for a decade plus.

• 12:17Speaker 07

  Thank you. It is indeed a pleasure to be associated with WTBS, and we promise to bring you the greatest in professional wrestling entertainment in the world today. We will have this week, as a matter of fact, exclusive footage on a matchup involving the Iron Sheik, who hails from Tehran, Iran.

• 12:35Speaker 07

  Then from there, a man who claims to have the most impressive physique in all of professional wrestling, Jesse "The Body" Ventura.

• 12:43Speaker 08

  The most beautiful body in professional wrestling. And I got something to talk about everywhere I've been going.

• 12:53Pablo Torre?

  So in other words, he rolls up these teams and makes a league.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. One of the companies Vince buys is Georgia Championship Wrestling. There's a proviso in their contract that says the matches have to be recorded in Ted Turner's studio. Vince McMahon does not want to have to do that. He does not want that overhead.

• 13:14Pablo Torre?

  So Ted Turner, as in Turner Sports?

• 13:16Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 13:17Pablo Torre?

  By the way?

• 13:17Speaker 03

  Billionaire.

• 13:18Pablo Torre?

  When it comes to the basketball interweaving here, that's the boss of all of the stuff we know with Inside the NBA.

• 13:25Speaker 03

  That's right. So Vince doesn't want to pay that money. So he ends up selling the time slot back to Ted Turner. Ted Turner then takes that time slot and fills it with WCW World Championship Wrestling.

• 13:39Speaker 09

  World Championship Wrestling has always been one of our most popular programs. The Braves are becoming a winning team in baseball. CNN is the leader in world's news and information. And now WCW is about to dominate the globe in professional wrestling.

• 13:54Pablo Torre?

  So the guy, the billionaire who owns CNN, owns Turner Sports, all that stuff, he starts his own rival league?

• 14:00Speaker 03

  That's right. 88, he starts that league. In 95, they premiered a television show called WCW Nitro. 100% live and ringside, two hours of WCW Monday Nitro. Huge moment in professional wrestling. Live television, that's a big gigantic part of this. 100% live, and it becomes a head-to-head feud with WWF's Monday Night Raw.

• 14:26Speaker 09

  But WWF is bigger,

• 14:31Speaker 09

  better,

• 14:34Speaker 09

  and better than ever on USA.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  It's called the Monday Night War.

• 14:39Pablo Torre?

  It's kinda like, as if two Monday Night Footballs were competing.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Yes, perfect.

• 14:45Pablo Torre?

  And so, I'm envisioning, right, Vince McMahon as one commissioner?

• 14:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 14:48Pablo Torre?

  Who is his rival counterpart at WCW?

• 14:51Speaker 03

  A legend in the game, an absolute legend, Hall of Famer. His name is Eric Bischoff.

• 14:58Speaker 08

  My name is Eric Bischoff. I live in Cody, Wyoming. And in 1998, oh, that was a minute ago, I was president of World Championship Wrestling.

• 15:07Speaker 03

  He was a janitor at an animal hospital. He actually got a sales job at WCW to start, and then ended up getting bumped up to be on camera because the announcer that WCW had got arrested.

• 15:20Speaker 10

  Welcome back to TBS. I'm Eric Bischoff, and this is a WCW magazine.

• 15:25Pablo Torre?

  We could spend, and others have, multi-part docu-series level time on any individual person in the story. We're just like glossing over, and Vince McMahon's here, right?

• 15:37Speaker 03

  And again, the context here is that the WWF was the Corleone family. They dominated the space for a decade plus. WCW using the live broadcasts and adult themes, and doing the suckets and like, all that sort of pushing the envelope stuff. That's all Bischoff. Bischoff does that. WWF had stayed out of that water forever on purpose. Bischoff does it. WCW gets the ratings lead from WWF and holds it for 83 straight weeks.

• 16:06Speaker 08

  We had to convince... Our existing television partners, which was TBS and TNT at the time. Nobody within that community that we were doing business with really looked at WCW as a competitor to WWE. They were so far ahead of us, we were in afterthought. And I needed to change that perception within Madison Avenue, the advertising world, which is why I brought in Hulk Hogan. Hulk Hogan films mean mega profits at the box office and on video. I brought in Hulk Hogan for media attention. And this summer, Hulk Hogan stars in the major theatrical release, Mr. Nanny. The agencies all of a sudden started looking at us differently because we had what

• 16:51Speaker 08

  they believed to be the biggest star in wrestling at the time.

• 16:55Speaker 11

  World Championship Wrestling presents Hulkamania 94, the world tour.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  And in 96, Bischoff gets Hogan to turn heel.

• 17:05Pablo Torre?

  Even I had to reckon with this. The New World Order.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  The t-shirts.

• 17:10Pablo Torre?

  Was a black and white.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 17:13Pablo Torre?

  Like villains and their big thing in a pay-per-view world.

• 17:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 17:19Pablo Torre?

  Was what?

• 17:20Speaker 03

  Hogan turns heel at a pay-per-view event called Bash at the Beach.

• 17:24Speaker 11

  Battle lines have been drawn for the war that will be heard around the world. It's WCW's Bash at the Beach.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  So WCW, 83 straight weeks, they've got control of professional wrestling. That forces the WWF to also go live and usher in their Attitude Era. That's Stone Cold, that's The Rock. They go adult themed as well. First time in their company's history, they start doing that. And with the power of Vince and WWE, the brand and all of the wrestlers, they come back against WCW, but Eric Bischoff has an ace up his sleeve.

• 17:57Speaker 08

  I got a text message from Hulk Hogan saying, hey, call me ASAP 911. And he rarely ever, ever did that. So I, before I even got into the hotel, got on my cell phone and called Hulk and he said, hey, I just hung up with Dennis Rodman and he really wants to get into wrestling, wants to get involved. WWF at the time had already pitched him. I think Shane McMahon had reached out to Dennis. But Dennis wanted to work with Hulk. He didn't want to just work in wrestling. He wanted to work in wrestling with Hulk. And since Hulk was at WCW, that's where I got tagged in.

• 18:40Pablo Torre?

  So Dennis is here. And as I imagine it, this is a real top flight wrestling free agent.

• 18:47Speaker 03

  100%. Rodman dates Madonna in 94. He wears the wedding dress in 96. He kicks the cameraman in 97.

• 18:55Pablo Torre?

  So when does Dennis Rodman become serious about his other job?

• 18:59Speaker 03

  Beginning in 97. Rodman is out promoting Double Team, which is his movie with Jean-Claude Van Damme.

• 19:04Pablo Torre?

  Oh, I remember that vividly.

• 19:06Speaker 03

  He goes out to promote and ends up recording a promo with Hulk Hogan announcing that he's joining NWO.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  We can do a double team, triple team, but the NWO is the new team of the future. Sweet.

• 19:21Pablo Torre?

  So the two timelines here. Per wrestling, on the one hand, the NBA and the Chicago Bulls on the other, they had just won their second straight title.

• 19:30Speaker 03

  That's exactly right.

• 19:31Pablo Torre?

  And Dennis Rodman, in the other parallel timeline of wrestling, is, what's he doing?

• 19:37Speaker 03

  Rodman appears in the 97 Bash at the Beach, and it is an unmitigated success. Huge success for the company.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  They immediately want to run it back, a lot like the Bulls do. They want to run it back and have Rodman join them for the 98 Bash at the Beach.

• 19:54Pablo Torre?

  Okay, here we are, 98. But now, WCW, what are they planning to do, given that Dennis Rodman is trying to also sell this upcoming event?

• 20:07Speaker 03

  So strangely, Eric Bischoff turns to his wacky neighbor, Diamond Dallas Page.

• 20:13Pablo Torre?

  So, and DDP, for those uninitiated.

• 20:16Speaker 03

  Okay, okay. Do you know DDP?

• 20:18Pablo Torre?

  I know, I know a couple of things about this man.

• 20:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:22Pablo Torre?

  Including the fact that when it comes to silent film hand gestures, he's got.

• 20:25Speaker 03

  The big one.

• 20:26Pablo Torre?

  An all-timer.

• 20:37Speaker 03

  The diamond cutter, a iconic hand gesture that he did with it. He sort of puts his hands, his two hands together.

• 20:43Pablo Torre?

  Thumb and index finger.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  Thumb and index fingers touching to create that diamond between his two hands. He points at the camera and then goes bang.

• 20:52Pablo Torre?

  His blonde curls.

• 20:53Speaker 03

  Yes, those curls, those long curls.

• 20:55Pablo Torre?

  I mean, look.

• 20:56Speaker 03

  Covered in sweat.

• 20:58Pablo Torre?

  You're clearly psyched.

• 21:00Speaker 03

  When I call Diamond Dallas Page, Mr. Page, first off, thank you so much for doing this. It is an honor. Gigantic fan.

• 21:08Speaker 12

  My pleasure, bro.

• 21:10Pablo Torre?

  Which is to say, you proceed to do some real investigative journalism.

• 21:15Speaker 03

  I'm shocked that you've let the fox in the hen house and allowed me to waste so much of your time with this, but I'm so thrilled. Diamond Dallas Page tells me the best story about how he met Karl Malone.

• 21:28Speaker 12

  Yeah, I'd seen Karl on The Tonight Show. You know, heard him talk about, like, I'm not a WWF fan, I'm a WCW fan. I heard him say, you know, those guys are my favorites. And I was like, boy, that was cool of him to say. Then I was doing a signing in Houston. And they said, do you want to go see the Houston Rockets game? I was like, who they playing? He said, they're playing the Jazz. I was like, awesome. Yeah, I'm a Malone. I'm more of a fan of players as opposed to teams. So they, they were up like 25. So Karl's on the bench. And it's me, one of my best friends, his name is Ross, and it's at a timeout and Karl's like, you know, looking up in the stands.

• 22:13Speaker 12

  And then he just throws up the diamond cutter sign. And Ross loses his mind. He's like, oh my God, oh my God. He's reaching for his camera. But by the time he gets the camera up, he's sitting down and the recorder's on. And he says, uh, he says, oh my God, you gotta get him to do that again. And I said, bro, I don't know him. He goes, he knows you.

• 22:40Speaker 12

  So afterwards, Carl had sat, we got to the next break and I pointed, you know, we're only like 20 rows up, so we're not that far from him. And I go boom, and I put my arms like, hey, you know, and he's like, threw it up again. So we got a picture of that. But then one of the guys came up to us for the end of the game and said, hey, Carl, love you guys to come backstage. So he got passes for me and my boys. And then we went back there. And at that point, someone walks up and goes, hey, Carl's outside. So I walked outside, I was like, hey, man, he gave me a big hug. And we talked for about 10 minutes. And I said to him, if you ever want to do anything, you got my number, call me and let me know.

• 23:24Pablo Torre?

  So what I'm learning from your, you know, Make-A-Wish interview, Neil, is that Carl Malone loves pro wrestling, just like you.

• 23:30Speaker 03

  That's right. Diamond Dallas Page has said on the record, Carl Malone did not dream of becoming a basketball player. He dreamed of becoming a professional wrestler. He's from a small town Louisiana, born on a farm, youngest of nine children. He watched all those small regional wrestling encampments that I talked about earlier. Mom would drive them four hours on I-20 to the sportatorium in Dallas to watch professional wrestling. Huge fan.

• 23:53Pablo Torre?

  And I reiterate, another character worthy of a, another separate investigation.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 23:59Pablo Torre?

  Like, I don't even have time to get into Carl Malone's actual rap sheet.

• 24:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:03Pablo Torre?

  I don't.

• 24:04Speaker 03

  DDP and Carl Malone hang out at the 98 All-Star Game. And then throughout the back half of the season, DDP is going to Carl Malone's house.

• 24:13Pablo Torre?

  Which is...

• 24:14Speaker 03

  It's like, DDP sort of compared it to like a giant Cabela's. You know, that like, humongous outdoor store and the taxidermy everywhere.

• 24:23Speaker 12

  He shot and killed everything. He had the biggest elk, the biggest moose. He had a bear that was 12 feet tall. I mean...

• 24:31Speaker 03

  He said it was glorious and every like eight-year-old boy's dream to have a house like that.

• 24:35Pablo Torre?

  And so now we're in the Western Conference Finals.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 24:39Pablo Torre?

  In 1998.

• 24:42Speaker 03

  Utah Jazz, Los Angeles Lakers. It's a huge moment.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  And DDP is watching this Western Conference Finals live and gets a huge idea.

• 25:04Speaker 12

  They were playing the last game against LA and they were about to sweep 4-0. And that's with Shaq, you know, it was a pretty big deal. And but it's 3-0 at the time.

• 25:19Speaker 12

  And I just start thinking to myself, I'm gonna call him and see what he thinks it is. So I called him up and I said, listen, I know you've always wanted to be in wrestling, you know, that was your goal as a kid. I said, Rodman's coming in, so Hogan's gonna tag with him again. I said, what if it was Dennis Rodman and Hulk Hogan against Diamond Dallas Page and Karl Malone?

• 25:47Speaker 12

  He went, ooh. I said, you got any beef with Rodman? He said, honestly? He said, no. He said, you know, most people don't know this. Back in the day, when you came into the NBA, there was summer camp. And I don't care what contract you came in with, you roomed with another guy. And my roommate was Rodman.

• 26:17Speaker 12

  And he said, I thought he was, you know, a very nice guy and very down to earth. He goes, I don't know who this guy is wearing the dresses now. He said, but that guy that I know is a good dude and I would have, I would have no problem with it. He said, well, let me, let me talk Derek Bush off about it. Let me see where this goes.

• 26:44Pablo Torre?

  So just to, again, connect the parallel tracks here for a second. So Karl Malone in the NBA is so comfortable up 3-0 over Shaq and the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals, that he is making a side deal for another job that is going to be, I mean, the bash of the beach is coming up in July.

• 27:03Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 27:03Pablo Torre?

  That's weeks after the NBA Finals.

• 27:06Speaker 03

  The Utah Jazz owner, as the sort of contract gets more and more real, as the opportunity becomes concrete, the Utah Jazz owner basically turns to Karl and says, please don't get hurt.

• 27:16Speaker 13

  Don't we get hurt?

• 27:20Speaker 03

  That is from a wrestling podcast in 2020, which he joined by phone between alligator hunts.

• 27:25Speaker 13

  Alligator, like chomp, chomp, like big teeth, long head, dinosaurs, you know, them things, alligator, yeah.

• 27:30Pablo Torre?

  Naturally.

• 27:31Speaker 13

  I've always said, if I ever had the opportunity to wrestle, I'm going to do it. My opportunity just happened to come during the NBA Finals, uh, when we put the deal together.

• 27:48Pablo Torre?

  And what do you get paid if you're Dennis Rodman or Karl Malone to moonlight as a pro wrestler?

• 27:53Speaker 03

  They share an agent. That agent told me that Dennis is making at least a million dollars and Karl Malone's right there. That's a workable number for Eric Bischoff. He's got that in the budget, but that is a ton of money to put all into just talent.

• 28:06Speaker 08

  Everybody buried the idea. Eric Bischoff's spending way too much money. He's spending money like a drug sailor, blowing all Ted Turner's money. And I'm, here's what I'm thinking. And this is why being in the middle of the NBA season was so important to me. And why I was willing to take the $2 million risk that I did. First of all, I knew how much a full page ad in USA Today, inside the sports page, I knew exactly how much of that cost because I purchased them. It was so much that I figured if I could get enough media coverage, free media, if I could tap into the sports media, particularly, you know, morning drives,

• 28:48Speaker 08

  and a little bit of coverage in print, I couldn't buy $2 million worth of press and get nearly what I got. That was my rationale. It was just a marketing decision.

• 29:01Pablo Torre?

  That's kind of like influencer math.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 29:04Pablo Torre?

  Like Eric Bischoff running WCW is saying, hey, I got $2 million Ted Turner to spend. I'm putting it all on my two stars.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 29:11Pablo Torre?

  And they're going to use their organic marketing.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  That's exactly.

• 29:15Pablo Torre?

  Their platforms that they have elsewhere to sell this thing.

• 29:18Speaker 03

  That platform just happened to be the 1998 NBA playoffs.

• 29:25Speaker 08

  I wanted as much drama, emotion, and camera time isolated on Carl and Dennis as I could possibly get for free. When we were talking about, wow, maybe, you know, if at this night show, we could get Carl and Dennis here, then maybe we could set up this confrontation in the parking lot.

• 29:45Speaker 06

  It's a white limousine, and we have no idea exactly what this means. Usually with the new world order, especially with the white and the black.

• 29:52Speaker 08

  So we were talking about ideas like that, that we could do on our show.

• 29:57Speaker 06

  And Diamond Dallas Page is with him. How about this?

• 30:01Speaker 08

  Somehow, the conversation turned into, yeah, what if we could figure out a way to do something like that during an NBA game? Because it's one thing to do a stunt or an angle for our own audience, but what if we can do one for that audience to make our story even more exciting? And it started out as just kind of a joke, and then it started getting a little more serious. I'm using their playoffs as a wrestling promotional stunt? It could be the end of my career. I can't ask for permission, so I'm gonna have to bank on forgiveness.

• 30:43Speaker 08

  I can probably pull this off.

• 30:47Speaker 03

  Part of the calculus behind this decision is Bischoff going, if I can get these two guys to hate each other on camera and feed his match become the promotion for his pay-per-view days after the NBA Finals is over, then it all makes sense. How do you do that? How do you get that into the NBA Finals? You need two willing accomplices. And what if I said to you, these willing accomplices happen to be two lifelong wrestling fans? Guys that grew up with each other, roomed with each other. Who share the same agent. Share the same agent!

• 31:27Speaker 08

  It wasn't all Machiavellian and a sinister way behind the scenes trying to figure this out. It wasn't that. It was just like, hey, if by chance you guys have an opportunity to kind of get in each other's face and make sure the cameras are around when you do, that would be awesome. Not asking you to do it. That's not it. Don't put it down on paper. Don't make a note to yourself. But just say it. Happens.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  This is all lined up for these two guys to bleed this into the 1998 NBA Finals.

• 32:04Speaker 08

  Once we kind of said, hey, if you can get away with it, it does up the game. Boom.

• 32:09Pablo Torre?

  Just to step back though, for a second, Neil, because you're talking about the most famous finals of my lifetime, which I do vividly remember.

• 32:17Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 32:17Pablo Torre?

  The 98 finals.

• 32:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:18Pablo Torre?

  You're telling me that they're turning it into actual pro wrestling in ways that I and the world never fully appreciated.

• 32:28Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. And the proof is in the pudding, Pablo. We're about to watch the 98 finals together. It's going to blow your mind.

• 32:44Pablo Torre?

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• 34:14Pablo Torre?

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• 35:45Speaker 14

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• 36:16Pablo Torre?

  So now I kind of feel like there's a trial happening of some kind. You're an attorney, you're bringing a case. And what I have learned from you already, what I found out is that the NBA Finals allegedly have been used as this marketing scheme for the 98 bash at the beach involving Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone, who have been in cahoots with Eric Bischoff, head of WCW, to effectively get some free promo in front of 72 million people.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 36:43Pablo Torre?

  Watching this thing.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  We mentioned Rodman earlier skipping practice to go to be in WCW Nitro early on. That is presented as an isolated event. Oh, what a wild card Dennis Rodman is. He skips practice during games three and four of the NBA Finals to go be a professional wrestler for a night. That's just the beginning. That's where the whole thing starts. It goes so deep, you won't believe it. The WCW, World Championship Wrestling, successfully co-ops and infiltrates the 1998 NBA Finals, and Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone are both complicit.

• 37:19Pablo Torre?

  So you are alleging, even more explicitly, that the integrity of the 98 Finals was actually compromised.

• 37:27Speaker 03

  Both of these men are working. Truly, we're gonna watch these clips, and I believe by the end of it, you will 100% agree with me, these men are both working. They're putting on a professional wrestling promo.

• 37:38Pablo Torre?

  Which is to say, they are working as NBA players while doing a work.

• 37:42Speaker 03

  Your honor, I have some exhibits.

• 37:49Pablo Torre?

  So I think this is where we just gotta speed run through my childhood a bit.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:52Pablo Torre?

  Because it's June 98, June 3rd, game one, I remember this.

• 38:00Pablo Torre?

  Utah wins at home by three points.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. Game two, Chicago wins by five.

• 38:05Speaker 10

  Chicago comes into Salt Lake City, weary or not, and gets out with a split.

• 38:10Speaker 03

  So they're heading back to Chicago with the split. It's a series that tied 1-1.

• 38:13Pablo Torre?

  But game three...

• 38:15Speaker 10

  A total humiliation for the Utah Jazz.

• 38:19Pablo Torre?

  The Bulls win by forty-two. Forty-two, right? I'm looking at the stats. So the Jazz have an NBA Finals record-low fifty-four points, which is humiliating.

• 38:29Speaker 03

  The next day after that blowout, Rodman basically goes, "Well, I'm feeling pretty good. I'm gonna head out of here and go up to Auburn Hills to be in WCW Nitro."

• 38:38Speaker 08

  I just love the way you threw Malone around like a dish rack.

• 38:43Pablo Torre?

  So this is him skipping the practice, as depicted briefly in The Last Dance.

• 38:48Speaker 03

  The entire media focus is on how Rodman could possibly leave and skip NBA practice. Phil Jackson's telling the media that Rodman is gone.

• 38:56Speaker 06

  When he comes back after one of his...

• 38:59Speaker 03

  No, he's only taking your focus away from the Finals, not ours.

• 39:03Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, he had been fined a combined $20,000 by the NBA and the Bulls, and...

• 39:08Speaker 03

  Rodman comes back in Game Four the next day and probably has his best game of the Finals.

• 39:13Speaker 05

  What the hell, you know, this is all about putting your balls on the line and shoot the basketball, you know? So I did it. I think it's just due because all the things have been happening to me the last couple of days.

• 39:22Pablo Torre?

  Dennis Rodman is, I mean, based on his performance in Game Four, is actually, to his credit, saying, "Look, I'm basically performing at 100%."

• 39:31Speaker 05

  They gonna get to 100% when I'm on the court.

• 39:33Speaker 03

  Rodman is, in effect, doing those two jobs at once. And I think the context here is important to remember. The Bulls are now up 3-1. I believe the Bulls think they're going to win the title.

• 39:46Speaker 15

  In some of their minds, I'm pretty sure that, you know, they think they should be swept by now, you know? Four games to zero.

• 39:52Speaker 03

  And I also think that Utah believes they're not going to win the title.

• 39:56Speaker 13

  I think my concern is people don't start making plans for summer already.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  Which would allow both Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone to go, "Why don't we start working on this professional wrestling thing that we both love?"

• 40:16Pablo Torre?

  So now the two timelines have converged.

• 40:18Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 40:19Pablo Torre?

  They have crashed into each other at the 98 Finals. And I do recall, in my mind's eye, as I'm 12 years old, that it is Bob Costas taking us to Game Five.

• 40:30Speaker 10

  And if it all ends tonight, he will leave with that rarest of athletic distinctions. He will leave without ever having relinquished his position as the greatest player in the game.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  Now, I've asserted that WCW has-

• 40:49Pablo Torre?

  I have goosebumps, by the way.

• 40:51Speaker 03

  -co-opted and infiltrated the NBA Finals. This is the proof. Your Honor, may I present to you Exhibit A.

• 40:59Speaker 10

  They swing it over to Harper. He misses off the baseline and Morris takes the rebound.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  Malone and Rodman get tangled up.

• 41:07Speaker 10

  As Rodman and Malone were entangled.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  Malone sort of gooses Dennis Rodman, picks him up by a short, throws him out of bounds. Rodman tries to get past him and Malone brazenly trips him here.

• 41:20Pablo Torre?

  But Neil, we both know 90's basketball was different. They were built different. It's physical. We've seen stuff like that before.

• 41:26Speaker 03

  You're right. However, may I present to you Exhibit B, 60 seconds later. The breakout from Karl Malone. He dunks it here on Rodman and watch this. Bang. You'll see it here on the replay.

• 41:39Speaker 16

  I don't know if that's a technical foul. However, the referees right now are trying to say, hey, we got Malone and Rodman right there. We're not gonna let it get out of hand.

• 41:49Speaker 03

  And that's the point. Karl Malone knows the camera is on me after I score. And he gets the broadcast talking about this feud between these two guys. That's the whole point.

• 42:00Pablo Torre?

  They're up to something.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  It's exactly what Bischoff wanted.

• 42:03Pablo Torre?

  It is funny that the Jazz do win that game.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 42:07Pablo Torre?

  Right? They win Game 5, so they're down 3 to 2, which means the series isn't over.

• 42:12Speaker 03

  And you'd think, because of that, you think that those two guys might go, well, maybe we should turn down the pro wrestling promo work. But it's exactly the opposite. They turn it up during Game 6.

• 42:24Pablo Torre?

  I have a feeling there's another clip.

• 42:26Speaker 03

  Your Honor, Exhibit C.

• 42:29Speaker 16

  You watch Malone and Rodman battling under the boards.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  This is like a virtual recreation of the Game 5 clip you just saw. Ron Harper again misses the shot on the baseline. Malone and Rodman battle for the rebound. And this time, it's Rodman who trips Malone. I think they're starting to understand the formula that when we get tied up, the cameras will be on us. And if we were to cede this rivalry, to promote this match, it would be in one of these tie-ups, one of these moments that can be camera time for the two of us to mix it up.

• 42:59Pablo Torre?

  It does seem that tripping is in their move set.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  And that's the foundation. It's about to pick up steam and it does so with Exhibit D, Ass Slaps.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  A sign of respect, actually, it appeared to me.

• 43:16Pablo Torre?

  Okay, well, Bob Costas, voice of journalistic color commentary, seems to be unconvinced. This is sportsmanship to Mr. Costas.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Bob Costas is falling for it. He's falling for it in that moment. And it's the reason why I had to bring in an expert witness. I'd like to call to the stand.

• 43:35Pablo Torre?

  Wait, who are you now bringing into our courtroom?

• 43:37Speaker 03

  Former Chicago Bull, three-time NBA champion, Bill Wennington. Let me be the first to congratulate you on the 1998 NBA championship. Congratulations on winning that.

• 43:50Speaker 17

  Well, thank you very much. It was a lot of fun and, you know, since I left the Bulls, they haven't won another championship.

• 43:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. I took him this theory. I showed him these clips. I needed to get his take on this as an eyewitness. I have a couple pointed questions. Let's show those butt-slapping clips. A sign of respect, actually, it appeared to me. Now, do you think that is a, do you think they're showing a sign of respect? Do you think they're screwing with each other? Is Bob Costas getting played?

• 44:22Speaker 17

  I think Bob Costas is just trying to be proper. But also, you're both smart enough to understand that they're not going to get thrown out of the game or technically, they're not going to have a fight, an all-out brawl.

• 44:35Pablo Torre?

  So, for those not watching YouTube, which you really should be at this point, Bill Wennington has an incredible handlebar mustache. He looks like a pro wrestler. But to me, right, like, it's hard to discern Rodman being a wrestler from Rodman just being Rodman.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  And I turned the screws on Bill for that reason. Do you believe that is professional wrestling bleeding into the 1998 NBA Finals, Game Six?

• 45:01Speaker 17

  I want to say yes, but I want to say no. I think he's playing along the fact that, you know what, hey, I'm not going to let you outshow me. I mean, they're both smart businessmen, and it's just playing into it a little bit more. But you got to play into it and not lose focus. For them, it's marketing. And it helped them out for, you know, for lack of a better word, a big payday in July. So it was free advertising.

• 45:36Speaker 03

  He is admitting, he knows this is marketing for their professional wrestling match. This is a guy who plays for the Bulls, is at this game, telling me he wants to say yes. The only reason he also wants to say no is because I'm radioactive. This idea is gonna tear apart NBA fandom.

• 45:53Pablo Torre?

  But, but, but the idea that this is dispositively wrestling.

• 45:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 45:58Pablo Torre?

  I mean, again, we're watching basketball and imputing motive, sir.

• 46:03Speaker 03

  May I present to you Exhibit E.

• 46:07Speaker 03

  Now you'll watch here. Malone gets the ball in the post, wheels and scores. Seems like a normal basketball play until... What is that? What is that?

• 46:19Speaker 03

  What is that, Pablo?

• 46:20Pablo Torre?

  Okay, I admittedly did not remember that. He's throwing up the diamond cutter.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  The diamond cutter in the finals during the game. And this is game six. The Jazz don't have control of this game yet.

• 46:34Pablo Torre?

  Again, for, for those not watching, you got to, but that also feels like it could just be him, you know, I don't know, making like a, an O or something with his hands.

• 46:42Speaker 03

  Perhaps it's just a one-time thing. Exhibit F, play it.

• 46:48Speaker 03

  Malone, this is the very next play.

• 46:53Speaker 03

  There it is again! Pablo, it's the very next play. They feed Malone in the post again. He wheels, hits the shot and throws it again because he's thinking, "If you didn't catch it the first time, I need to do it again." It's a concerted effort to make sure that wrestling is in the NBA Finals.

• 47:12Pablo Torre?

  Okay. So, game recognized game, uh, Neil. I, I did not know you'd have A, B, C, D, E, F, yeah, six exhibits escalating to a, a level of proof that I, I, I, I, I must say this has been persuasive so far.

• 47:33Speaker 03

  Pablo, I've not even gotten to the biggest one or my star witness.

• 47:38Pablo Torre?

  How many more exhibits are there?

• 47:49Pablo Torre?

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• 48:33Pablo Torre?

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• 51:09Pablo Torre?

  So Neil, where are we?

• 51:12Speaker 03

  This is the big one. Again, just to set the table, game six, 98 finals, and again, 1998, there's like 15 things on television. 30-plus million people all watching this game.

• 51:23Pablo Torre?

  It was a simpler time.

• 51:24Speaker 03

  Yes. Game six, this is, you know, considered one of the great moments in Michael Jordan's career. This is the big moment. This is the moment that I remember as a kid. I'll never see it the same way. Exhibit G, the entanglement. You remember this place.

• 51:40Pablo Torre?

  Yes, I do.

• 51:41Speaker 03

  Here they are, they're getting tied up.

• 51:42Pablo Torre?

  This is infamous.

• 51:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  When people talk about NBA Finals moments where players get heated, they reference this moment.

• 51:51Pablo Torre?

  Seeing this with your previous six exhibits does make this hit different.

• 51:56Speaker 03

  Wait until you see the replay, Pablo.

• 52:00Speaker 10

  Karl Malone, regrettably, are scheduled to wrestle in one of those bogus events next month. Why Malone wants to lower himself to that is anyone's guess. And Rodman apparently wants to start the wrestling now.

• 52:11Speaker 03

  When I was a kid and I watched that play, I was like, oh my God, these guys hate each other. Which is exactly what Bishop wanted, so I'd buy the pay-per-view.

• 52:19Pablo Torre?

  And I can also just tell how disappointed the voice of gravitas, Bob Costas is as he sits courtside.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  Which is why I had to make another call.

• 52:29Speaker 18

  Is Pablo in on this, or is it just the two of us?

• 52:32Speaker 03

  Just the two of us for now, and then these. This is me and Bob Costas in 2025. What do you remember about that moment? How do you see that moment now? Has it changed at all?

• 52:42Speaker 18

  Well, there's a backstory there.

• 52:49Speaker 18

  It used to be the shock grew out of the art. The shock grew out of Marvin Gaye and sexual healing, but that was art. The shock grew out of Elvis.

• 53:06Speaker 18

  The shock grew out of George Carlin and Richard Pryor, but they were brilliant and they were doing social commentary.

• 53:12Speaker 06

  But don't take my word for it. Ask the president.

• 53:16Speaker 06

  I'm meant to president. We in trouble.

• 53:20Speaker 18

  Now we were living in a schlock celebrity culture where the shock was the only thing. There was no content of value there. And that's what I saw as Dennis Rodman's celebrity. A kind of dopey Jerry Springer world, Kardashian world celebrity. And I said that many times, parenthetically, even during games. But I always gave him full credit.

• 53:49Speaker 10

  His tired freak show continues, but on the court, he brings unique talents.

• 53:54Speaker 18

  Not only as. A unique player, but I had heard even then that he was a gentle soul, that he was generous, that he was kind to those he came across. And subsequently Dennis and I have had conversations, and I'm sure that if we had an opportunity to sit down and have dinner together, we'd find a lot of common ground. I don't dislike Dennis. I dislike that part of the culture, which now is so far down the road, there's no getting back. But I disliked that aspect. And I also disliked the fact that wrestling, even then, and this was before my interview with Vince McMahon on HBO.

• 54:34Speaker 07

  You want to let me finish here for a second, pal? Shut your mouth and let me answer the question, all right? I'll be happy to answer.

• 54:40Speaker 18

  But even then, I could see that it had moved away from the kind of good-natured wrestling that I liked as a kid, and toward that sort of attitude era, that sort of crass, it's no longer tongue-in-cheek, it's no longer good-natured. So I'm thinking, why in the world would Karl Malone, not that Karl Malone is necessarily a paragon of virtue, but why would he want to get involved in that? So this wrestling match was pending between Rodman and Malone. And it's with that backdrop that I just laid out for you, that they become entangled. And it looked to me like that entanglement wasn't just a natural outcome of what can happen in the basketball game. They were trying to prolong it and kind of

• 55:23Speaker 18

  emphasize it, because it drew attention to what was upcoming, from which they both would profit. Now, in retrospect, I said, they gotta call a flagrant here.

• 55:32Speaker 10

  They gotta call a flagrant here. They've got to call a flagrant.

• 55:36Speaker 18

  They have to call a flagrant here. So probably I overstated my objection in that narrow instance. But my overall objection, I stand by, 27 years later, I stand by.

• 55:51Speaker 03

  After the entanglement, the game broadcast, NBC cuts away, but The Last Dance had extra footage. Malone and Rodman start slapping each other's asses again.

• 56:04Speaker 06

  I tell you what, I love what I'm seeing, the battle between these two guys.

• 56:08Speaker 03

  But watch Rodman here. Watch Rodman's reaction.

• 56:10Pablo Torre?

  Oh, this is a different.

• 56:11Speaker 03

  Look at him, ooh.

• 56:14Speaker 03

  He's acting, he's pouring it on.

• 56:17Pablo Torre?

  Okay, so now I know that there are so many more ass laughs than I had anticipated.

• 56:21Speaker 03

  These men are guilty, Pablo.

• 56:23Pablo Torre?

  He's popping his hip, he has his elbow at a triangle, he is a cartoon character.

• 56:29Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 56:29Pablo Torre?

  Gesturing unsubtly about his ass having been slapped by Karl Malone.

• 56:34Speaker 03

  These two men are guilty. They're guilty of promoting professional wrestling in one of the most iconic NBA Finals ever, and Bob Costas isn't buying it anymore.

• 56:45Speaker 18

  Well, that clip captures what I was just about to say. I knew, after they untangled from each other, I knew that there was no real animosity because they patted each other on the butt. You could tell, it was all fake. But here's the thing, why does that low-grade fakery find a place in something that is the highest grade of legitimate sports drama?

• 57:14Pablo Torre?

  But just to put the finest possible point on this, Neil, what you are alleging here is that Karl Malone was not giving 100% effort to win a game in the NBA Finals.

• 57:25Speaker 03

  I think the proof is in the pudding, but I also took this to Bob Costas. I just believe wholeheartedly that Karl Malone is not 100% dedicated to that basketball game. He is working a professional wrestling angle.

• 57:39Speaker 18

  My point is, guys can be aware, guys can give a nod, guys can have a laugh without being lost in another land. I just, there's no evidence here to me that either Rodman or Malone shortchanged the task at hand. But there is evidence that they were definitely trying to promote this, whatever you want to call it, in my view, trashy endeavor.

• 58:05Speaker 03

  Does that take away from Game 6 at all to you? Does it take away from that moment at all to you?

• 58:11Speaker 18

  Well, that moment, I, I, I think was discordant. But the overall thing is so great.

• 58:20Speaker 18

  It's like, it's like saying that, does the hair out of place? Mean that Cindy Crawford isn't beautiful? I don't, I don't think so. So, no.

• 58:29Pablo Torre?

  As someone old enough to remember what Cindy Crawford is, I find Mr. Costas's argument also kind of persuasive, Neil.

• 58:36Speaker 03

  Let's go with that for just a moment.

• 58:40Speaker 03

  You believe Karl Malone is locked in? That's what you're saying? You believe that he's, he's not promoting wrestling? He's completely locked in in this game?

• 58:51Speaker 03

  Karl Malone looks super locked in in this moment, Pablo.

• 58:54Speaker 15

  They ran that play a couple of times prior. And Dennis and Malone have been fighting all game. And Karl just totally forgot that I was on the weak side.

• 59:09Speaker 03

  He's asleep at the wheel, Pablo.

• 59:13Speaker 03

  Karl Malone's asleep at the wheel.

• 59:14Pablo Torre?

  You are, you are saying that this play, again, famous in The Last Dance and in life, Michael Jordan slapping the ball away in the play before he hits the game winner over Brian Russell.

• 59:32Pablo Torre?

  You're really connecting.

• 59:33Speaker 03

  A hundred percent. I guess they're going to Malone. Is he, is he asleep at the wheel? Although he's been having a little bit of a struggle this morning. Looks that way to me.

• 59:44Pablo Torre?

  So your closing argument is Michael Jordan's closing shot?

• 59:46Speaker 03

  That's, that's not the case. My closing argument is Exhibit H. You remember Jordan holding up the six fingers, but do you remember this?

• 1:00:01Speaker 03

  Dennis Rodman is promoting. They are working this.

• 1:00:05Pablo Torre?

  He's doing the D-Generation X suck it.

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  It's funny how as you're, as a fan, you remember Jordan doing this. And you don't remember that, but the second you see it, you go, of course, all these pieces fit. The puzzle pieces fit.

• 1:00:18Pablo Torre?

  I need to, I need to, I need to take a break. Can we go to break?

• 1:00:23Speaker 03

  And by the way, the prosecution rests.

• 1:00:38Pablo Torre?

  I followed you through the NBA Finals, which you've changed.

• 1:00:41Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:00:42Pablo Torre?

  I mean, truly have changed my understanding of.

• 1:00:44Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:00:45Pablo Torre?

  But the thing that they were promoting, just to close the loop here, right? How was the 98 Bash at the Beach?

• 1:00:53Speaker 03

  Not good. Not great.

• 1:00:55Speaker 11

  The battle began on the court, a battle that was never settled. Now the time has come.

• 1:01:02Speaker 03

  It started in Utah, finished in San Diego.

• 1:01:06Speaker 11

  The war is on.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, baby, Rosalyn is gonna take you out, NWO style, baby.

• 1:01:11Speaker 11

  It's Hogan and Rodman versus DDP and Malone at WCW NWO Bash at the Beach.

• 1:01:19Speaker 03

  Listen, most professional wrestling-

• 1:01:20Pablo Torre?

  They went through all of that trouble, Neil.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Most professional wrestling matches with non-professional wrestlers, there's a ceiling there. It can't be super great. Rodman spat on DDP.

• 1:01:32Speaker 19

  Wow. That was a class act. One you would expect.

• 1:01:37Speaker 03

  That was like a moment. And Malone is legitimately picking dudes up and slamming them on the ground. He's a beast. He's a monster.

• 1:01:42Pablo Torre?

  He is very strong.

• 1:01:43Speaker 03

  So it was what it was. It rated very well. I believe it was the second highest rated WCW pay-per-view in its, the company's history.

• 1:01:52Pablo Torre?

  I mean, Karl Malone, just like hulking out, by the way, wearing, I think those are jeans, or maybe just like jean, I can't tell if those are jean pattern spandex tights or actual jeans, but he's shirtless. He at least looks the part.

• 1:02:06Speaker 03

  As the story goes, Rodman didn't want to take his shirt off because Karl Malone looked like a Greek god, chiseled out of granite.

• 1:02:13Pablo Torre?

  This makes sense as well, actually, now that I review this footage in retrospect. But yeah, I guess it was worth it.

• 1:02:30Speaker 03

  And then Dennis Rodman goes off to film the movie Simon Says with Dane Cook.

• 1:02:35Pablo Torre?

  So just journalistically speaking, I should say the following. We hear a public Torre finds out, did try to contact Dennis Rodman, did try to contact Karl Malone. The Bulls and the Jazz could not find either of them. Rodman has a booking agency, has an apparel line, they didn't respond. Karl Malone has these car dealerships in Arkansas and Utah. Nothing from them. Their shared former agent that you spoke to, whom we brought to you earlier, nothing. And we also reached out to Hulk Hogan through his agent and attorney. And everybody is just in the wind, as they say.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:03:08Pablo Torre?

  Um, clearly, there was not a desire to engage.

• 1:03:12Speaker 03

  I'm radioactive.

• 1:03:13Pablo Torre?

  With you, Neil, as I have realized what I've done here, which is to say, what did you find out today?

• 1:03:22Speaker 03

  What I found out is that to me, undoubtedly, without question, those two men are working a professional wrestling angle during the 1998 NBA Finals. And I want to say, to be clear, I am not telling anyone to strike it from the record books. I do believe it needs to be asterisked. I am a big believer.

• 1:03:40Pablo Torre?

  You're calling for an asterisk.

• 1:03:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:03:41Pablo Torre?

  You're calling for an ass play asterisk.

• 1:03:44Speaker 03

  Yes. If we're trying to decide something, I mentioned the greatest of all time.

• 1:03:49Pablo Torre?

  You're trying to asterisk Michael Jordan.

• 1:03:51Speaker 03

  This is what we're doing here. If you are trying to decide greatness, then you have to be detailed. You have to be willing to use an asterisk. I'm doing it right here. If the main tenet to the idea that Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever rests on the numbers of him having six championships. You go at that number. I am not the biggest Laker fan, I am the best Laker fan.

• 1:04:15Pablo Torre?

  Oh, Lord.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  And if my job is to put LeBron James, who is a Laker, as the greatest of all time, I'm going at title number six. By saying that title has been delegitimized.

• 1:04:27Pablo Torre?

  I cannot stress enough how you have impugned your own objective credibility. Just as I was ready to co-sign the case you have brought before this court. I am inclined to think that actually you've been disbarred. But I also feel like there should be some higher authority than me that gets to proclaim that officially.

• 1:04:51Speaker 03

  I did take this theory to Bob Costas. If the center of that argument is that Michael Jordan won six titles, then I need to go at that number. And what I'm saying is that Michael Jordan's sixth title is been delegitimized by the fact that Karl Malone is professional wrestling and not playing NBA basketball. He's not concentrating on the finals. Delegitimize that sixth title. Jordan's at five, LeBron's at four. If he gets one more, he's tied. He's got the scoring title. LeBron James is the greatest player of all time. Your thoughts?

• 1:05:21Speaker 18

  I think that's one of the most inane arguments I've ever heard.

• 1:05:25Pablo Torre?

  Neil, thank you for your work on this episode.

• 1:05:30Speaker 03

  It's been a pleasure.

• 1:05:31Pablo Torre?

  May God have mercy on your soul.

• 1:05:47Pablo Torre?

  Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Avaroma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McCray, Rachel Miller Howard, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tumanello, and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post. Our theme song, as always, is by John Bravo. And we will talk to you next time.

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