Showrunner Lee Sung Jin is Back with More ‘Beef’

Since the arrival of Beef in 2023, showrunner and creator Lee Sung Jin has been hailed as “the preeminent social satirist” working in television. The Emmy-winning writer/director joins us around the anthology’s return (3:10) to discuss the source material behind this latest season (4:30), the rise of scammers (12:00), and the distinctions between Korean and American elites (18:00). Then, we move through Lee’s nomadic childhood (28:45), his years as an NBC page (38:28), and a decade of working inside writers’ rooms for shows like It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia and Silicon Valley (43:45). On the back-half, he speaks candidly about his battles with depression (53:00), the PowerPoint that lead to Beef landing at Netflix (1:01:00), the pains of perfectionism (1:03:30), what the next generation of writers can do to break into television (1:07:30), the day director Bong Joon Ho visited his set (1:22:20), and why Lee feels he’s just getting started (1:24:38). Clips from Beef courtesy of Netflix. Subscribe to our new YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@talkeasypod. As always, our email: [email protected]. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Forgo, so welcome to the show.

• 0:33Sam Fragoso?

  Today, writer, director, showrunner Lee Sung Jin. He's the creator behind Beef, one of the most talked about TV shows in recent years. The first season premiered back in 2023 on Netflix and was actually inspired by a road rage incident that Lee himself was involved in, resulting in a hit series about two strangers, one, a despondent contractor, the other, a self-made entrepreneur, who were determined to make each other's lives a living hell after one of them cuts the other off in a Los Angeles parking lot. The show went on to sweep the Emmys, earning awards for lead actor and actress, best writing and directing, and outstanding limited or anthology series.

• 1:14Sam Fragoso?

  But despite all that success, it wasn't clear whether a second season was in the cards. As you'll hear in today's episode, Lee spent the better part of 2023 and 2024 pitching various iterations to no avail. It wasn't until the universe intervened, as he put it, that the next chapter of Beef became clear. With the new season now streaming on Netflix, it's set in a private country club in Santa Barbara, and it opens on two Gen Z employees who are also newly engaged to each other, who witness and then film a volatile domestic fight between their boss and his wife, inspiring a series of chess moves that includes blackmail, coercion, and double crossings between the

• 1:58Sam Fragoso?

  club's members and its employees. If season one traded in petty feuds, season two pivots more broadly to class warfare, a collision between American And Korean elites, couples of varying generations, all of whom seek solutions through either scamming, duplicity, or violence. And so today, I wanted to talk to Lee Sung Jin about the timeliness of season two, and how it captures the frustrations of life and capitalism in 2026. We also tell some of his story, being born in South Korea, his nomadic childhood throughout the US, finding screenwriting after college, his battles with depression, and how his trying experiences

• 2:43Sam Fragoso?

  working in writers' rooms throughout the 2010s led to putting all of himself, really, everything, into these first two seasons of Beef. This is Lee Sung Jin.

• 3:10Sam Fragoso?

  Lee Sung Jin, welcome to the show.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 3:14Sam Fragoso?

  It's very nice to meet you.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  So nice to meet you.

• 3:16Sam Fragoso?

  How are we doing?

• 3:17Speaker 01

  You know, I'm a little nervous because I'm a fan of the show. You go deep.

• 3:21Sam Fragoso?

  What are you bracing for over there?

• 3:22Speaker 01

  You know, you like to get in there, into the mind.

• 3:26Sam Fragoso?

  And you, historically, you like to keep it surface level, of course.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Historically, that is what people know about me. I keep it surface.

• 3:34Sam Fragoso?

  That's you. Yeah, I was told by your publicist, just keep it really surface.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you've seen the show, it's all surface.

• 3:40Sam Fragoso?

  This new season of Beef, in a recent profile for the Financial Times, you said, quote, "I'm not a good writer when it comes to concocting scenarios out of thin air. I do require the universe to show me things, and then I can take it, distill it, and tweak it for a show." So, set the scene. What did the universe show you to arrive at the premise for season two?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Well, at first, the universe was showing me that perhaps I shouldn't do a season two.

• 4:09Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Because, you know, we were in the middle of the awards run for season one and I was just pitching ideas left and right to Netflix and they're just flat out saying no.

• 4:18Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  And Ginny Howitt, Netflix kind of pulled me aside and she was like, look, you don't have to do a season two. Like, we can keep it limited. You should only do a season two if you find something that you're passionate about.

• 4:30Sam Fragoso?

  Did you feel like you had to do a season two?

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Kind of. Like, I, I, obviously, like, I love my crew and my collaborators. I want to keep my crew working. And, uh, and, and so I just, you know, I felt like a responsibility to like, you know, try to get another season. But, um, but also creatively, that was like a really good call out from Ginny. Like, yeah, I was just like pitching to pitch, which is not why we do this. And, um,

• 4:57Sam Fragoso?

  By that point, you, you had bought a home in Calabasas?

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah.

• 5:01Sam Fragoso?

  You, you were thinking, I do have a mortgage payment to make?

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Yes, that's exactly right.

• 5:05Sam Fragoso?

  So when you find yourself back in the neighborhood?

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:08Sam Fragoso?

  What does the universe present to you?

• 5:11Speaker 01

  It was, it was, I think in the summer and, um, I overheard a, a, let's call it a heated debate coming from a couple's home. And, you know, it was, it was like, you know, pretty heated.

• 5:24Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  But it wasn't like, you know, like, anything that I should call the police about. At least, I didn't think so.

• 5:30Sam Fragoso?

  And do you remember what it was heated about?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Uh, it, it was like very like your standard, like, general, like, kind of like blame game between a couple and like being tired of each other's shit, kind of.

• 5:42Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  And, uh,

• 5:44Sam Fragoso?

  What was the race of this couple?

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Well, uh, you know, I, I, I, I don't want to get too specific because I, I live, it still live in that neighborhood, but, you know.

• 5:55Sam Fragoso?

  And they still live in that neighborhood?

• 5:56Speaker 01

  They still live in that neighborhood as well, but, you know.

• 5:58Sam Fragoso?

  They subscribe to Netflix.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  They, they, they most definitely do. And, uh, and,

• 6:02Sam Fragoso?

  So they were white?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Well, you know, that's, uh, there's a lot of context clues here. No cops came, for example.

• 6:10Sam Fragoso?

  That's one.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, but,

• 6:12Sam Fragoso?

  Calabasas, that's two.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  You nailed it. Um, but, uh, yeah, it was, the incident itself wasn't that interesting. It was more,

• 6:21Sam Fragoso?

  If I guess their names, will you admit it on?

• 6:26Speaker 01

  I have a

• 6:26Sam Fragoso?

  Tom and Jenny?

• 6:27Speaker 01

  I have a, I have a feeling that you do have those names written down.

• 6:30Sam Fragoso?

  I really wish I did.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:32Sam Fragoso?

  I have just about everything else, just not that.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're like literally outside the studio. You're about to welcome them in as guests.

• 6:37Sam Fragoso?

  Your neighbors. So you overheard a heated domestic argument. This couple that's probably been together for a minute. They're fighting about the typical, you know, bullshit in a long, in a long-standing relationship. And, and what happens from there?

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Well, I start telling that story to people in my life. And without fail, anyone that was like, you know, Gen Z and younger, they were aghast, you know, they're like, did you call the police? And I'm like, no. And they're like, why not? Like, that sounds so intense. Like, are they okay? Whereas everyone my age and older were just kind of like, yeah, all right. Uh, so that, that like dichotomy of, of viewpoints about love, like I was like, okay, there's something there.

• 7:24Sam Fragoso?

  So you felt in the responses, there was a generational divide. What about that division did you want to explore?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Well, I think we've seen so many, you know, depictions of generational divide that are much wider in gap. You know, like, like the classic like boomer, get off my lawn type stuff. And what I found interesting about myself and my forty something peers is like, we were relating to this, you know, in real life, this couple was much, much older. You know, and like, uh, I found myself like defending the, the much older couple. And I'm like, why, why am I doing that? And, and I'm like, oh, wait, no, because I'm old. Like, and so I think millennials just had, like, we've felt young for so long, you know, like to me, like girls is not that old of a show.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  I'm like, I just watched it. But it's like, no, it's, it's like decades have passed. And so that passage of time and having to wrestle with it obviously is like, you know, midlife crisis is well-trotted territory, but we haven't trotted it that much as a, as a group of millennials. And so that, that was really interesting to me. And then also like, you know, I think there's a lot, there's a lot of Gen Z portrayals that right now I feel like very, uh, like kind of painting with broad brushstrokes and There's a reason Gen Z feels the way they do and a lot of it is systemic. You know?

• 8:50Sam Fragoso?

  I want to play for people how that moment in your life turned into the scene in the season premiere. This is from Beef, season two. The younger couple that you're about to hear, featuring Kaylee Spanney and Charles Mountain, speaks first.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is why I don't do wallets.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  I know. You're literally spending money to carry money. It's crazy.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  I'm just smart.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  What was that?

• 9:21Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 9:28Speaker 03

  That sounds really bad.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like you should wait in the car.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  No way. Where you go, I go.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Okay, stay close.

• 9:38Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 9:42Speaker 03

  I'm gonna record it.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  You're making me happy. Yeah, good job. You are an anti-selfish woman. Thank God we didn't have kids. Oh, fuck you. No, no, no. Leave the fuck away. Lindsay, Lindsay, forget this shit. Let me go.

• 9:59Sam Fragoso?

  It's enough, fucking bitch.

• 10:00Speaker 03

  Don't fuck with me.

• 10:01Sam Fragoso?

  Stop. Stop it.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Shit.

• 10:16Sam Fragoso?

  So for people who haven't seen it yet, the show was set at the Montecito Country Club in Santa Barbara, which you've called, quote, "a great little microcosm of society." Why do you think that?

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I got to use a membership for a month because my friend is a member there. And from my observation, almost all the members are Silent Jenner boomer and the employees are all millennial and Gen Z. So no matter how hard those employees were, they're never going to get to be members, which is how I think a lot of people feel today in real life. Like, you know, as Austin says, everyone grabbed the bag before they could. So that felt like a great metaphor and we kind of ran with that.

• 10:59Sam Fragoso?

  And having spent time in the country club, what did you want to interrogate? Was there a big difference between the elite of America versus the elite of Korea?

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Uh, no, it's it's more like universally across all cultures. I think uh, there's this idea of hedonic adaptation where we as humans just, you know, very, very quickly adapt to new sensations. And, uh, you know, when I got to use the membership, I like turned my nose up. I mean, like, that's insane that you pay that much, you know? And then like three days in, I'm like, let me see that app.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Where can I sign? Cause you're just like, oh, it is the land of make believe. And, and, and in 2026, like, who doesn't want to make believe now and again?

• 11:51Sam Fragoso?

  One of the recurring themes of of this season, and it does bind the characters, whether irrespective of culture and class, is this idea that like everyone is scamming. Like, this is a, this is a big scammer season. Give me the, the scamming monologue that you had that inspired and undergirds this show.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I, I, I, I do find myself ranting a lot in the writer's room and.

• 12:22Sam Fragoso?

  And this is a great place to do that.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  You know, it, it, it does feel like sometimes, you know, I mean, you know, you, you put so much effort into your work and what you do and you, you care about all the little precise things, even as for like getting ready. I, I see your precision and, and you probably, you know, we both spend a lot of hours trying to like push this boulder up the hill.

• 12:50Sam Fragoso?

  We're, we're unwell. I got it.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're unwell. But yeah, I think it's like you, you, you try so hard and then you look around and everyone's cutting corners, you know, whether.

• 12:59Sam Fragoso?

  Tell me about that. Tell me, tell me.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  You're not gonna let me off the hook. Uh, you know, like, I, I don't want to turn negative, but like, because that the show is why I turn, you know, I express my negativity through the show, but I, you know, whether it's like my parents falling for a wire scam or people I, I work with, uh, just like cutting corners or not caring, or I look at like, you know, fellow peers in the business and, and it's just like, you know, there, there are ways to like. You know, not do all the work and, and, and, and, and still get all the shine.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  And that's just the system we're in. Like, you know, every, there's limited resources. Uh, like, and, and so I get it. But, uh, yeah, sometimes you get frustrated and you're like, why, why am I only getting four and a half hours of sleep? And so then you rant, you rant, everyone's scamming.

• 13:59Sam Fragoso?

  It does feel like everyone I know is fighting for truly the last remnants of an actively dwindling bag.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:09Sam Fragoso?

  Like, like around the edges.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:11Sam Fragoso?

  That, that's what it feels like.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Across the board.

• 14:13Sam Fragoso?

  Across the board.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:15Sam Fragoso?

  Whether it's in this industry or elsewhere.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:18Sam Fragoso?

  I, I want to know, why do you think in 2026, there are more guardrails to purchasing a tube of toothpaste at CVS than there is for politicians trading in the stock market?

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Uh, be, because there is a power imbalance, you know? Um, it, it, like, when there's limited resources and you, you start to gather everything, and then, then you want to keep that. And the masses, you need to keep away.

• 14:50Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, like, let's put all the checks and balances on that toothpaste. But on the system of capitalism, let's just take it all off. Cause it's, it, it's just, you know, it used to be more subtle, but like, we're kind of in the end stages. So now everything's like, becoming a little bit more hyper-normalized because it's getting exponential. And, uh, and, you know, it is, uh, I think, I think that's why this season, um, you know, we're, we're sort of unrelenting and, and hitting that theme because it, it's not, I, I didn't set out this season to want to talk about capitalism, you know, like that, I want to talk about these two couples, but.

• 15:35Sam Fragoso?

  You didn't open up final drafting right. Exterior capitalism.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  I probably should have, uh, would have saved a lot of time. But, uh, yeah, no, when you, when you're trying to make something honest and you look out into the world and you think about these characters in the real world, it just, it's, it's just in every single interaction. Like you're saying, you go to CVS and you can't purchase anything.

• 15:58Sam Fragoso?

  It makes me really upset. I know, I know, and they're not a sponsor for this show, at least not yet. And after this, not ever. But when you go to CVS and you see the toothpaste locked up, it just to me indicates like something is deeply wrong here. And when we're like on year two of reading emails from Epstein and no one's gone to jail, like people are more likely to go to jail for stealing toothpaste.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:29Sam Fragoso?

  Than they are for sex trafficking.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's when we, when we were.

• 16:34Sam Fragoso?

  I'm sure, I'm sure the whole team's really excited about this line.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  They're marking.

• 16:38Sam Fragoso?

  A hundred percent.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Mark this time code.

• 16:40Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  And the next time.

• 16:41Sam Fragoso?

  Just scrap the whole 20 minutes.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  No, I.

• 16:45Sam Fragoso?

  But I'm telling you, you know why I'm having this response? It's because your show produced this response in me. And it produced these kinds of conversations with the people in my life, especially around the first season. And I, and I think again, in this new season, like that is the dialogue you seem to be having. And in, you know, in turn inspiring.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Well, that, that's exactly the dialogue we were having in the writers' room. You know, especially with the Chairwoman Park arc.

• 17:13Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, talk, talk to people about that.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Well, you know, obviously last season also had a very like, you know, a rich antagonist in Maria Bella's character. And I, at the time was, you know, again, just writing what I know, experiencing a slice of Korean society that I'd never gotten to experience before. You know, I was going to Korea, shooting music videos out there, doing panels. And here I'm being invited by like Korean Chebbo, which is like the six families that own everything, like, you know, into their conglomerate headquarters, private dining halls. And it was fascinating to me just how much control is placed into very few hands. But they do it in such a, like in Korea, such like an elegant way

• 18:00Speaker 01

  that you sort of are like, like here in America, like you, like if you and I like went to something that like Elon Musk invited us to or like Jeff Bezos, then it'd be like, you know, like.

• 18:10Sam Fragoso?

  Why are you throwing me under the bus? Don't, don't get me involved with your sordid rooms.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  We're in it together right now.

• 18:16Sam Fragoso?

  We are not. Only one of us has a best friend that made a billion dollars on a tech company.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I mean, we are in higher ground offices and they're

• 18:28Sam Fragoso?

  Don't, don't, don't drag the Obamas into this. For a kid that was born in Korea.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:35Sam Fragoso?

  Who spent pockets of their childhood in all different places throughout the US.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:41Sam Fragoso?

  Like going back to shoot a music video for a member of BTS, I think it was.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yes, RM.

• 18:49Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, like, what is that like to now go back home and not just home, but like to the highest echelons and annals of power back home?

• 19:00Speaker 01

  It was both strange, but also like insanely intoxicating.

• 19:04Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, explain that.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Just the allure of luxury and convenience and access is intoxicating. And, you know, being wined and dined in like the private halls of a Korean conglomerate, you know, and they're, they're, they're bringing in every K-pop idol, you know, elite celebrities. And, and, you know, they just treat you nice. Who wasn't, who doesn't like being treated nice? And, you know, like, for example, I joked to this Korean sharewoman, I was like, hey, I'm kind of getting like self-conscious of my skin, meeting all these K-pop idols, we should probably stop that. And she was just like, oh, I'll send you to my skin guy. I'm like, excuse me? She's like, tomorrow morning, a black SUV will pick you up from your hotel and you'll go to our skin guy.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  I'm like, okay, when in Rome, I'll go. And you go and, and, and literally like a black SUV like picked me up. I went, it was all like, you know, like well organized and, and, you know, seen right away, no waiting and, and yeah, I got, I got a light laser. You know, it's worn off. It was several years ago. I gotta go back.

• 20:11Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. I was about to say.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  And.

• 20:15Sam Fragoso?

  You look youthful.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 20:17Sam Fragoso?

  All things considered.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's it. All of that becomes it feels very comfortable and and I found myself thinking that that's normal. And that again, that hedonic adaptation. So I wanted to shine a light on that. But then, you know, obviously, the season has this whole arc of like covering up a death at the skin clinic. And in the writers' room, we were like debating like, is this too broad? Like, are people going to buy into this? Like, you know, at the time we were writing, there was like the Boeing whistleblower stuff that was going on, and we probably should cut this too. So our lives are not in danger. But, you know,

• 20:58Sam Fragoso?

  This stays in.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  We were like, oh, like, maybe people will buy it because there's, you know, some headlines here and there about this kind of stuff. But, you know, now that the show's coming out, I think the news is much more terrifying. You know, there's, there's these nuclear scientists that have been working on nuclear fission. It's like the 10th scientist has been murdered associated with that research. You know, again, the Epstein files, like, there's just a tonnage of of conspiracy that we are now just getting like used to, so much to the point that the thing that we thought was broad now feels a little bit, you know, understated in the show.

• 21:38Sam Fragoso?

  In the press leading up to to season two, you talked a lot about this this eternal trap of Samsara and how you wanted to explore like the cycles of of seasons. What did you mean by that? Like, what does what does that look like to you?

• 21:53Speaker 01

  You know, I think both seasons, I want to always sort of have a spiritual depth to it. And for me personally, I think, you know, I used to be, I was raised in a Christian home. I, you know, I went to Korean church. Obviously, season one was based on a lot of that. And

• 22:17Speaker 01

  You know, lately I have been sort of more inclined to wonder about sort of these Buddhist and Hindu principles that it does feel like we've been doing this for many, many lifetimes and that nothing ever changes. We sort of like have this parameters in our in our reality that's like, you know, you can't have light without dark. There's this eternal sort of cycle of suffering and love and and it feels like it goes on forever. And I've

• 22:57Speaker 01

  wrestled with that in terms of my mental health because it can be really sad. And it feels like almost there's like no hope because like, is this it? You know, is this all we're doing for the rest of time? And I think for me, the end of this season is sort of wrestling with that and like where what do you do with that? I've sort of left it open to interpretation. I hopefully as people watch it, I'm hoping wherever you're at, you bring to that long shot, you know, your own emotions and your own feelings about how to wrestle with this eternal cycle that we're trapped in.

• 23:36Sam Fragoso?

  Have you been wrestling with this more since you had a daughter?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Actually, I'd say less. I used to really wrestle with it, like so much so that it's made me want to give up a lot, you know, like, and I think for people like me who have that penchant for suicidal ideation or depression, like the voice never really goes away. It's just kind of always rattling around in there and it's just a level of volume that changes.

• 24:05Sam Fragoso?

  Turn the gain up or down.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And

• 24:10Sam Fragoso?

  Are you on antidepressants?

• 24:12Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I do therapy every week and and that helps certainly a lot. But and I wouldn't say I'm depressed, like I am very content. But I think it's just it's a fact, it's a variable of life that we all have to contend with at some point that That these are the sort of restrictions and parameters of being alive. And and and eventually, it all ends and you and and life continues and and other people struggle through that. And and so what is the point is sort of like the question of

• 24:53Speaker 01

  why is something I've always wondered. But I don't know if that's like a I think that's OK to wonder that and get sad. But I think having a daughter has certainly made it feel OK because when I look at her, there's a lot of hope. You know, she she's she's the best thing in the world. And and and it's almost like, oh, here here's someone who can continue the story and hopefully improve this next paragraph. And then maybe she'll have a child and and then that child will improve the next paragraph. And and we just keep doing that. And and hopefully, there's a there's an interesting story by the end, you know?

• 25:32Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I want to start with the the beginning paragraph of your story. So why don't we do that after the break?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 25:39Sam Fragoso?

  That's coming up with Lee Sung Jin.

• 26:01Sam Fragoso?

  I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but when spring comes around, I like to clean up my space and and tie up loose ends. Whether you're tending to your home or catching up on appointments or taking care of your loved ones, it's natural to protect the life you're building. And you start thinking, not just about the day to day, but about the bigger picture, the safety net that you're creating for the future. But long term financial planning can feel complicated. And finding the right insurance coverage isn't always straightforward. That's where Policy Genius can help. Their licensed team works for you, not the insurance companies. So their guidance speaks to what you actually need. They answer questions, handle paperwork, and advocate for you throughout the process, making it easier to find the coverage amounts, prices, and terms that fit your needs.

• 26:45Sam Fragoso?

  I tried Policy Genius and was surprised by just how simple and straightforward it was. It gave me real clarity and comfort about the future I was trying to build, that I am trying to build. Protect your family with a policy that grows with your life. With Policy Genius, you can see if you can find 20-year life insurance policies starting at $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. Head to policygenius.com to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com. I've been doing a lot of personal organizing recently, and it sort of illuminated how scattered my admin process had become. I was jumping between notebooks, notes on apps, old email handwritten notes, Post-it

• 27:30Sam Fragoso?

  notes on my desk, I mean, you name it, I had it, trying to piece together everything I needed to do. Especially in the lead-up to an episode of Talk Easy, there's just so much information I'm trying to consolidate and condense, and most importantly, just keep in my mind. And that's why I've started using Yahoo Mail Planner. It brings your tasks and events together in one place, so everything stays organized and you don't miss what actually matters to you. What I found most helpful is just being able to see everything I have coming up in one view: deadlines, recording times, follow-ups, Zooms, et cetera, without digging through emails or switching in between apps. Planner also pulls details directly from your inbox and turns them into something actionable.

• 28:13Sam Fragoso?

  So instead of piecing my day together with a bunch of disparate info, it's already laid out clearly for you. There's nothing extra to manage, it's built right into Yahoo Mail, even if you have Gmail connected, so everything stays in one place. It's a small shift, but it's made my days feel a lot more focused and manageable, frankly, a lot less scattered. If that sounds like something you need in your life, give it a try, stress less with Yahoo Mail Planner.

• 28:46Sam Fragoso?

  So coming back, you're born in South Korea, but grew up mostly in America. I have Champaign-Urbana, Lafayette, Minneapolis, then back to Korea, and eventually landing in San Antonio for high school. But why did your family move around so much? And what was that like for you?

• 29:07Speaker 01

  I'm not sure. It's something that I think my parents, you know, wanted clean slates in a way. I used to hate it, like how much we moved, but in hindsight, I'm like very thankful for it because I think it's made me very observational, especially as a Korean kid, mostly up and down the Midwest. You develop a knack for like checking out a room, like gauging everybody, understanding like everyone's psychology very quickly.

• 29:40Sam Fragoso?

  What is nunchi?

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Nunchi, nunchi is a Korean term for kind of like the awareness of how others perceive you. And it's such a common term that we just like use that every day because it's such a part of Korean culture. Like it is, you know, in Korean culture, you want to have good nunchi because it's important to see how you fit. It's a very collectivist culture, you know, and America's very individualist. And so nunchi allows you to be more collectivist.

• 30:12Sam Fragoso?

  You said your parents wanted to have a blank slate from city to city. What did they want to have a blank slate from? Like, why did they want to keep doing this? Did you and your sister ever go like, hey, I don't know, could we stay on this, on this story?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I think amongst ourselves, yeah, we would wonder. The dynamic of my parents have changed a lot over the years, too. I think, you know, they're immigrants and like they, there's so much about like creating a life for your child that is going to be both like financially stable and socially stable. And so it was very like goal oriented. And then as we've gotten older and more stable, now like we talk all the time, like and we have much more in-depth conversations. But, you know, back when we were young, yeah, it was more like. Like, okay, like you get up, you do your extracurriculars, practice violin for hours.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Like, and so, no, we didn't like have that more like friendly dialogue.

• 31:18Sam Fragoso?

  And was that okay?

• 31:19Speaker 01

  I, I, you know, I think like I talk about it in therapy a lot of like, I'm sure we all do of like, you know, the, the, the sort of like parent to yourself, you know, like now as an adult, sort of parenting your, your child, inner child, right? And like doing the things that your parents didn't do. But, you know, I'm, I'm sort of like reticent to, to, to almost like, wish for a different upbringing because it's made me who I am. And, and I think,

• 31:54Speaker 01

  yeah, my parents probably could have been different, but it's, whatever they did, like, like made me, you know, really good at writing. It made me have like a work ethic. It made me very disciplined. And, and so, you know, I wouldn't change anything, you know?

• 32:14Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, you can't change anything. I mean, there's no point in that.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 32:17Sam Fragoso?

  I, I, I guess like on the pain scale that, that you introduced in season two of the show, on a level from one to 10 on, on this pain scale, where was Beth Myers dancing with someone else to the end of the road at eighth grade winter formal?

• 32:34Speaker 01

  See, this is why I shouldn't have done this part.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  I, I knew, like you have so many pages. And so I was like terrified as to what was on those pages. Uh, pain scale, that's funny. You know what's funny about Beth Myers too is, uh, post-season one, or maybe it's pre-season one, you know, Jake Schreier, who's a close collaborator of mine, he directs a lot of Beef episodes. He took me to backstage to a Bon Iver show in, in Seattle, because he does a lot of stuff with Justin Vernon and. We were hanging out with the band after the concert. And then one of the, I think someone in the crew, his girlfriend or fiancee looked so familiar to me.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  And I was like, hey, did you live in Minnesota? And she's like, yeah. And then I was like, Beth? She was like, oh, my God, Sonny. And that is the Beth Myers. And so Paine Scale, like, I think that was probably eighth grade or ninth grade. And no, it was probably seventh or eighth grade. She played the viola, by the way, in that orchestra I mentioned before. It was probably like, you know, it's relative. At the time, it was like a seven or an eight.

• 33:59Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  You know, now in hindsight, like, it's like a two.

• 34:02Sam Fragoso?

  What's a two? Well, it's still a two. That's good.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:05Sam Fragoso?

  It feels something.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels something. But that's, that's, that's a, I don't even know where you got that from.

• 34:11Sam Fragoso?

  I could tell you, but really, why, why even go down that road? Growing up, the priorities were high SAT scores.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 34:23Sam Fragoso?

  Playing the violin.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely violin for hours and hours. You know? And, you know, I played a lot of music. Like, I, I, I thought music was gonna be my thing. Like, I was in bands, played guitar, I sang.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  And that probably took up the majority of like my high school free time. Was just making mixtapes. And I was just obsessed with the grunge scene, you know? And I wrote so many bad songs, you know, about Beth Myers.

• 34:58Sam Fragoso?

  We actually have one of them here. Should I play it?

• 35:02Sam Fragoso?

  I'm kidding. We don't.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  I wouldn't be surprised.

• 35:04Sam Fragoso?

  We don't. There was one I tried to find, but it's been scrubbed from the internet.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  It's funny, because like, the thing that I love most about It's not the most, it's one of the fun things about your show is like when you read back what someone said in previous things and every human hates like hearing themselves, I think. But then you not only do that about like recent interviews, you do like, and in like, you know, 2004, you once, and so there is this sort of like wrestling with the cringe of yourself that has to happen here, uh, which is very true of Beef too. Beef is about embracing the cringe.

• 35:42Sam Fragoso?

  Millennial cringe.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:43Sam Fragoso?

  So, speaking of who you were in 2006, why don't you read this bio description of yourself from a blog you had, uh, called Silly Pipe Dreams.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 35:55Sam Fragoso?

  You set yourself up for that one.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  First of all, about me, it says Captain Oats was my handle, uh, which is the name of the toy horse that Seth Cohen had on The OC. I loved The OC and I still do. I, I, I think it's a fantastic show. And then I say, try to be the next Josh Schwartz, J.J. Abrams, Joss Whedon, Rob Thomas, et cetera. In the meantime, I'm at my underpaid quote, industry job, clinging to the lowest rung on the ladder of success. And then I list my email and my, uh, AOL AIM, my AOL Instant Messenger handle. Oh, boy. Thank you for that.

• 36:37Sam Fragoso?

  No problem. Um, so by that point, you, you had gone to the University of Pennsylvania.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:44Sam Fragoso?

  You were an econ major.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:46Sam Fragoso?

  And then you pivoted and decided you wanted to do, do writing and comedy, uh, in, in New York City.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Not necessarily. I, I had no plan for New York City. I just knew that I didn't want to do investment banking.

• 36:57Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  So I moved to New York with quite literally nothing. Like I had everything stolen from my car the day I was moving to New York.

• 37:05Sam Fragoso?

  You packed up your Honda CRV.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  I did, yes.

• 37:08Sam Fragoso?

  And everything was taken.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Including my diploma, which I just got back, um, this last week at a screening we did at my alma mater.

• 37:14Sam Fragoso?

  Oh, that's amazing.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was very nice. It was a surprise and I was moved.

• 37:17Sam Fragoso?

  And when everything was stolen and you go to New York, what did you want to do?

• 37:24Speaker 01

  I, I genuinely had no idea.

• 37:26Sam Fragoso?

  I guess what I'm asking you is like, when you told them that.

• 37:30Sam Fragoso?

  How long was the silence on the other side of the phone?

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Uh, it was long. It was long. They were not happy. Uh, disappointment was probably the biggest thing, you know?

• 37:41Sam Fragoso?

  Even worse.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Even worse, yeah. And, uh...

• 37:45Sam Fragoso?

  I'll take silence over disappointment, I dare.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, you know, it was a big, it was a big risk. And, and, and, and what didn't help was I wasn't like, I'm not gonna do this, and then here's a plan.

• 37:59Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  I was just like, I don't know.

• 38:01Sam Fragoso?

  Not this, but that.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and it was, it was, you know, a good two years in New York of just answering like Craigslist ads to temp here and there and, and find like new roommates every month and, uh, taking out like credit card after credit card.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  And it wasn't until a, a, a friend of mine suggested that I apply to the page program at NBC that like finally something clicked.

• 38:29Sam Fragoso?

  And when you started working the page program, were your parents excited about that?

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Uh, I think they appreciated that finally, like at least it was a direction, you know, but I'm making $10 an hour.

• 38:42Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  You know, and, and, uh, and I still didn't like know what within like the giant vast array of entertainment jobs that I wanted to do. Cause you know, as a page, you get like these assignments that you compete for. Although I heard now that you don't compete for them, which is bullshit. Cause you know, what are we doing? And, uh, and so I, I had gotten an assignment at Weekend Today, you know? And I had like a brief interaction with Natalie Portman in the green room. And, uh, and I'd seen her probably like a year or two before on Broadway for the Diary of Anne Frank play,

• 39:22Speaker 01

  which was amazing. And, and she like came over and she asked if I could fix something for her grandmother's like laptop. And like, I was just like, oh my God, I interacted with Natalie Portman, you know? And like, I still would feel that way, but like, I was like, oh, this is so cool. I want to work at the Today Show. Like, that's such a not great reason to pursue something, you know?

• 39:47Sam Fragoso?

  I get to troubleshoot Natalie Portman's computer?

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I'm like wildly stumbling around, just like seeking for anything. And, and so then I worked at the Today Show for a good year as a researcher and I cut teasers for the program. And, uh, and then that wasn't it either. And eventually I, I realized, okay, let me try writing. You know, I had a, had a friend, Patrick Walsh, who, um, was a page with me. And we were like, hey, you want to write together? And we, we wrote a thing about the page program. And that's like, that, that finally felt like, okay, like this is something I can obsess over and do every day. And, and even for no pay, just like enjoy doing, you know?

• 40:27Sam Fragoso?

  And did you enjoy the writing of that from, from the jump?

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Oh my God, it was the best. Like we, you know, is every weekend we would wake up and instead of going out, we'd just like go to each other's places and just like riff, make jokes. And, uh, it was the best. Like I, and I had no idea like if this was going to turn into anything like, uh, we, we were making each other laugh really hard. So that was something. But, you know, we, we passed it around to friends, you know, most of whom are like assistants at different desks. And it somehow got to the head of NBC comedy at the time, Jeff Engold. And, um, he had actually just purchased a pilot script about the page program. And he called us and he was like, hey, this is like just as good, if not better than the script that I just bought. Do you guys have agents?

• 41:17Speaker 01

  And when we said no, he, he graciously offered to call every major agency on our behalf. And I'm so thankful for that.

• 41:24Sam Fragoso?

  So, so with that, the two of you go out to Los Angeles.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:28Sam Fragoso?

  Like, wow, we made it. We're in our mid twenties.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:31Sam Fragoso?

  Things are looking up.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:33Sam Fragoso?

  So to speak.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:34Sam Fragoso?

  So, so for people who only know you from the show that won every Emmy in the world a couple of years ago, what was that, that, that rough tumbling, trying to find your way period like here?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, like, just crazy disappointment. Cause like, in your head, you think that like, life is like, you know, Muppets Take Manhattan. You know what I mean? Like, like, we had gotten a cool agent. We like, we're moving and, and, and, and like, this is it. This is our big break. And I, I, I, I got this small place in West LA. And yeah, like, you know, slowly but surely, like, our, our agents, um, like, started returning our calls less and less. And, um, you know, uh, to the point where like, I was like, do we even have agents?

• 42:28Speaker 01

  And, and with no income coming in, like, I was like, okay, well, I don't wanna be a writer's assistant. I don't wanna be a P A. Like, I'm a writer.

• 42:37Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  And I don't want anyone in the entertainment industry viewing me as anything but a writer. So I, I, I took, intentionally took jobs like, far removed from the entertainment industry. Like, I started temping at this place called Business.com, which sounds like a joke on 30 Rock, but it was a real place. And, you know, it was very disheartening to like, get so hopeful and then be at Business.com every day, you know? And, uh, which, you know, is probably why I was fired for insubordination, by the way.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  And fun fact, if you're fired for insubordination, you can't collect unemployment.

• 43:15Sam Fragoso?

  Is that true?

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so-

• 43:17Sam Fragoso?

  And what did you do to, to be fired?

• 43:19Speaker 01

  I honestly don't know.

• 43:20Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Uh, and my boss's name was Kevin, who fired me, which is why when Lindsay in the show is like, if I pulled that shit at Soul House, Kevin would have, you know? And so I named the character Kevin because of that. And then, but it's funny, cause like, then, you know, we wrote, like, Josh's char-, Josh saying like, Kevin was a good boss. And now in hindsight, I'm like, Kevin was a good boss.

• 43:42Sam Fragoso?

  So tell me how you land this job, writing for It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia?

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, that, that was the best first job you, I could ever dream up. Um, because those guys do everything on that show. And so you get like a 360 degree, like, grad school lesson on just- Like what it what how to show run, how to direct, how to write, uh, how to act even, you know, and they graciously also allowed me and my writing partner then to uh stay on past the writers room and they handed us DV cams and they're like, hey, can you just shoot stuff for the DVD extras? We're like, okay, like I have literally no idea how to turn this thing on, but thank you for trusting us. And and so we got to hang out on set. We went to Philly

• 44:28Speaker 01

  with them and and that was my first real like in-depth experience on a production.

• 44:34Sam Fragoso?

  So you work in all these these writers rooms um through the 2000s into the the the 2010s. What was the culture like back then?

• 44:44Speaker 01

  It was very different. Uh.

• 44:47Sam Fragoso?

  Different means what?

• 44:49Speaker 01

  It's very white. Um, and and also the shows that I worked on were were broadcast shows, um, broadcast comedy. Um, and like and like the late aughts, early 2010s, that's very much like a certain type of comedy, like very joke heavy. You know, I kind of describe it as like in that era, like the UCB comedy scene was like the thing that like the holy grail of like the type of comedy that you want to be doing. And and so the the the rooms are very like, you know, you're doing bits and you're constantly like kind of roasting each other, riffing. And and I'm usually like, you know, the only person

• 45:33Speaker 01

  of color or like, you know, it's me and someone else, you know, and and oftentimes I was like the diversity hire. Like back then they would save one spot for a diversity hire. And I think it's like not on the show's budget or something like that. So you're kind of like affirmative actioned into the show and uh.

• 45:54Sam Fragoso?

  And did you feel that?

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh.

• 45:58Sam Fragoso?

  And did it bother you?

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Uh, in the moment, no. Uh, in hindsight, yes. Uh, in the moment, you're just so like, as you can tell, like, I'm, I'm very people-pleasy. So I'm just like, I'm happy to be here even.

• 46:13Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  And so I'm like, okay, I'm like the token Asian on staff. Then like, uh, I, I didn't really have a, a strong spine back then. And, uh, it's only in hindsight where I wish I could like, go back and kind of like shake myself and be like, dude, don't, don't, don't laugh at these jokes that are being made at your expense, you know?

• 46:35Sam Fragoso?

  Like, what kind of jokes?

• 46:37Speaker 01

  You know, like, if there was an Asian character on a show, they would like, I remember there was one joke that got cut where it was about like the Asian character like eating a dog, right? And, and, and, and just like people laughing and riffing on it and like, you know, ultimately didn't make it in because, you know, thank God, like, uh, but, you know, if I had a spine, I would have been like, that's not funny. Like, why are we doing that? And culturally in the moment, so much hadn't progressed societally where like, it felt okay to do that. I'm worried about my job, you know? And, and, and not that, not to excuse

• 47:19Speaker 01

  myself because I do feel like I should have, but I was scared. And, um, you know, there's, there's also one time where, uh, you know, and I, it's like, I haven't shared this, so I, you know, uh, I don't know. But, uh, I remember, my memory of this moment was that I, I had left the writer's room to go to the bathroom. And when I came back, everyone was laughing and they're like, they said, check your email because of the fact that you couldn't send photos through your phone. So I opened my email and there was a photograph of one of the writers doing, um, slanty eyes with two chopsticks as buck teeth and kind of everyone laughing around them. And

• 48:03Speaker 01

  It was just sort of like a caricature of, of, of, of, in their minds, an Asian person. And no reason to send that at all. And, and, you know, they wanted to see my reaction to seeing the photo and everyone's cracking up. And then, and then I started laughing too uncomfortably. And then, and I just sort of like, you know, closed my browser and then move on with the day. Like, and, but inside I'm, you know, dying, obviously. Like it's, I feel like my sixth grade self where everyone's laughing at me. And I, and then I have to like, just turn that part of my brain off and keep pitching jokes. So there's this compartmentalization that happens and, uh, and I, I actually like have that photo

• 48:47Speaker 01

  hearted on my phone as a favorite and I, I do look at it from time to time.

• 48:52Sam Fragoso?

  Why?

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Just as a reminder, you know, like a reminder of what I've been through to get here. A reminder of, uh, like how I need to keep proving myself and like, uh, kind of this chip on my shoulder, I guess. And also to remind myself like, hey, like, remember how you felt in that moment where you didn't advocate for yourself at all? Like, keep advocating for yourself. Like it's okay to, it's okay to like say something on your own. Like if that happened today, like the, the show would get shut down, you know? But that was just common back then. I think, I think, I think that's, that's what's hard to like express sometimes because time moves so fast and our memories change so fast.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Like that was the culture.

• 49:41Sam Fragoso?

  And I think that's also why I want to talk about it because it wasn't like this was a room in the eighties.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  It was like the 2010s.

• 49:48Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:49Sam Fragoso?

  That's not that long ago.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  No. Yeah.

• 49:52Sam Fragoso?

  It's not ancient history.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  It's not and, and, uh,

• 49:58Speaker 01

  you know, I thi- I think I probably haven't processed it as much as I should because I'm just, I'm such a person that's like, go, go, go, put it into my work, put it into my work. And I haven't like paused and reflected on exactly what you're saying. Like, hey, like that wasn't that long ago. Like you're probably still pretty hurt by it, you know? And I think like that chip on shoulder is probably a reason why I, I go so hard on beef. It's like, just like, yeah, like when I was coming up, I didn't.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  I had, I had to prove myself. I had to like, the expectations were different. I was the diversity hire. Like, I gotta keep proving myself and I still have that for sure.

• 50:44Sam Fragoso?

  If you were the person you are today and you could go back then, what do you wish you could have said in that moment? Or even to that, that like, late twenties, early thirties guy in between all these rooms, what do you wish you had then?

• 51:05Speaker 01

  You know, I, I wish I could tell myself that like, like, hey, it's okay to be yourself, you know? You know, I was, you know, I, I think you're just like trying to like, search around for acceptance or, or any sort of connection of belonging. And so I was just like, grasping at all sorts of things and, and, and contorting constantly. And I'd love to just tell younger me like, hey, just like, relax, like, it's okay to be you. Like, you're okay, you know?

• 51:45Speaker 01

  And, and, and, and really it has been through the process of making two seasons of this show that I think I've, I've been able to do that.

• 51:57Sam Fragoso?

  I felt that the, the first time I saw, um, season one, episode two of your show, and there's a scene in that where, where Stephen Yoon, you know, who came on this show when the first season came out. Um, and I think we talked about this episode in this scene, but he's saying to his, to his younger brother, sometimes rock bottom is your trampoline.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah.

• 52:25Sam Fragoso?

  And I remember seeing that and thinking like, this is someone who's working through and excavating all, all the parts of themselves and putting it into the show in full view for, I don't even know how many people watch on Netflix. Um, but I, I rewatched that scene this week.

• 52:49Sam Fragoso?

  And I thought, there is no way one could write that without living it.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  I very much believe that quote. And yeah, I think a lot of season one was based on on my my past rock bottom, which which was, you know, my struggles with mental health. And, you know, I think even as a teen, I had sort of like suicidal ideation that like, I dabbled with and then, you know, there was a there was an event in there was a moment in, I think it was 2013 that I, you know, ended up in the hospital. And and that was for sure my rock bottom, you know, I really scared a lot of people

• 53:41Speaker 01

  that I love very much. And and it's the reason I started therapy. Like, I was like, I gotta, I gotta do something about this. I can't, this is not sustainable. And

• 53:55Sam Fragoso?

  When you say that, like, this is not sustainable, what is this in your in your life?

• 54:01Speaker 01

  I think I think it's the this is this feeling of like, not not wanting to do all of this, you know, not wanting to participate. And I think that's why Danny and Amy are written the way they are. They're they're two characters who just don't want to participate in life. They they don't, they've lost the plot. They they don't have meaning. And for me at that time, I think I I just really didn't want to be here. I I didn't, I don't know why, I just like, I was like, why are we doing any of this? And and

• 54:43Speaker 01

  And I think it's a, it's, it's probably a byproduct of kind of everything we're talking about where I think if when you're like stretching yourself like a rubber band like further and further away from who you actually are, that, that rubber band's gonna snap. And I think at that time, you know, I'm coming off of like three years on this multicam show. Uh, it's just feeling like I've become someone that is not me at all, uh, not happy in my career, that's taking up so much time and I don't even enjoy it, you know? Uh, and, and it just snapped. I'm like, what, why, why, why are we doing this?

• 55:24Sam Fragoso?

  The, the contorting that you're talking about?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  The contorting, yes. And, and, and when you contort, it, every, you know, everything is like the lens at which you look at it, you know? Like they say, like, I think Ram Dass talks about like how, um, you know, a hungry man walking down the street only sees the restaurants. That's like, for me, when I'm contorting, all I see when I look around is like, this is all a trap. This is all a Kafkaesque nightmare, you know? And, and that makes you wanna give up. Like it makes you feel like life is a prison that you want out of, and here's an escape hatch. So, let's take it.

• 56:05Sam Fragoso?

  And you tried to take it.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, and, uh, yeah, and I think, um, it, it definitely was a rock bottom, but, but like that quote says, it's, it ended up being the trampoline for sure, without a doubt. And also, just that rock bottom, it's a bottom. There's like a floor, like you're not continually falling, right? And so it gives you a chance to like, be like, okay, like, let me reevaluate everything.

• 56:39Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Okay, like if I am gonna write, what do I actually wanna write about?

• 56:44Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  If, if I am going to experience moments with friends, like who are the friends I wanna have around? What are the experiences I want to have? You know, I drinking as well, like for me personally, like I was like, why, why am I, why do I drink? Like, I don't like the taste. I certainly don't like how I feel afterwards. It, I think it's just like social pressure and I would like much prefer like a sugary Coca-Cola, who is, that's like also very bad for me, but like if, at least they like taste good, you know, and so I started like deconstructing everything in my life being like, am I doing this because I want to or just because I'm told to?

• 57:28Speaker 01

  And, and that's when my writings started to slowly change, you know, and I still wasn't doing it quite well because nothing was like getting picked up. Like I did this pilot for FX in 2016 with Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg directing and, but it was like very different from anything I'd done before. I was really like wrestling with some more existential stuff, but like solely but surely I was like, okay, like, okay, I feel like it's okay to write about this and other people seem interested, at least Seth and Evan do. That's good. I mean, FX didn't, but at least Seth and Evan liked it. And, and I kept like chasing that feeling and like beef was the first time where I'm like, okay, like, I'm just gonna like bear

• 58:10Speaker 01

  my soul and I'm gonna not hold back and, and I have no idea if other people are gonna like connect to it, but you know, luckily when we took it out, like, like so many networks just like went crazy for it. I'm like, okay, like it was like this reassurance from the universe. It's like, hey, it's safe. It's okay. Like, like you can, you can, you can write how you want to write and, and, and, and, and people may, may connect with it.

• 58:38Sam Fragoso?

  Well, let's talk about the, the writer and the person you became on the other side of this, which we'll do right after the break. That's coming up next with Lee Sung Jin. You all right?

• 58:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're very good at this.

• 58:51Sam Fragoso?

  That's not what I'm asking.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  No, yeah, it's, it's, I like, I had a sort of out of body experience as I was like going through that, that, that segment where I'm like, how did we end up here? But like it feels so natural to be here in this moment. And you, you like, it's very, very good. I'm very, I'm really impressed.

• 59:32Sam Fragoso?

  If you're a sports fan like me, you might already be counting the days until the FIFA World Cup begins this summer. Come June, thousands of tourists will travel to a handful of host cities, including Los Angeles, where I'm currently based. And if you're in one of those cities, this might be a good time to consider listing your space on Airbnb. It's an easy way to earn some extra money while welcoming guests from all over the world. For me, one of my best friends is already getting married on the East Coast this summer, which is kind of perfect timing in this case. I was already planning to leave, but now I can list my place on Airbnb, which will help offset the cost of the trip and also mean that I can probably get my friend and his fiancee a better wedding gift. The more I think about it,

• 1:00:14Sam Fragoso?

  it just makes a whole lot of sense. I'm away, somebody gets to enjoy my home, and I can make the most of my trip that I'm already taking. If you've ever thought about hosting, this summer might be a great time as we welcome FIFA World Cup fans. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host. MUBI is a global film company bringing great cinema to the world and to you. Everything at MUBI is handpicked with an emphasis on visionary filmmakers and movies worth discovering. One new movie is called Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, from writer-director Jane Seanbrin, who made the film I Saw the TV Glow.

• 1:00:56Sam Fragoso?

  The film stars Hanna Einbinder and Gillian Anderson. It follows a young director tasked with resurrecting Camp Miasma, a once-beloved slasher franchise that after years of sequels has fallen out of favor. Looking for inspiration, she visits the reclusive actress who starred in the original film. But what begins at attempt to revive the franchise soon pulls the two women into a blood-soaked world of desire, fear, and delirium. It's a world-expanding, genre-bending movie from one of the most distinctive filmmakers working today. Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma is now streaming exclusively on MUBI. You can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com/talkeasy. That's MUBI, M-U-B-I.com/talkeasy for a whole month of great cinema for free.

• 1:01:44Sam Fragoso?

  I think a lot of us are gonna spend the next few weeks looking for gifts online. And while I like finding something thoughtful for the people in my life, the process can get a little ridiculous. You've got a dozen tabs open, you're comparing prices, and you're trying to remember which store had that one thing you saw that has a deal, and you flagged it, and you saved it, and now you can't find it. Anyway, that's what I like about Shop. Shop brings all kinds of stores together in one place, so you can search for what you're looking for across different brands, while discovering new ones along the way, plus tracking all your orders without jumping in between websites. And just in time for the holidays, they're celebrating the allnewshop.com with a pretty extraordinary giveaway. 1,000 shoppers will win $1,000 in Shop Cash.

• 1:02:29Sam Fragoso?

  That's $1 million in total, which you can put towards gifts for other people, or maybe something you've had an eye on for yourself. And you don't have to buy anything to enter the giveaway. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win, and that's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 1:03:08Sam Fragoso?

  So coming back, when you start writing a show in Beef that is fully you and everything that you've lived through, and your family, and the foundation of being born in Korea, growing up in different places in America, there's this very famous now PowerPoint presentation that you delivered and pitched to Netflix. What was the presentation? If we had the slides in front of us today?

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  The slide starts with like, you know, like...

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Tone and references and visual references and like a summary, but then it like went into like beat by beat, the pilot like that, cause I had outlined the pilot in my head. And so I create like these kind of like storyboards where I like use images from other movies with music and some of it's animated. And some of, some of it has like actors photoshopped into environments. So I'm just trying to like create this like multimedia experience for the, the buyer to like not have to imagine anything. And literally like beat by beat, like, you know, Danny leaves the hardware store and then like,

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  uh, you know, uh, he can't return the Hibachi grills. And then like, there's a picture and then literally a song starts playing on the PowerPoint. And it's like soundtrack me as I pitch and then like builds and builds and I like time it so that like, right when like the road rage thing happens and he's staring at the car driving away, we cut to credits and then I like cut to a title card and I have, I use Justice's Genesis. And so then like,

• 1:04:48Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, you sing it because we won't get it cleared.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  And, uh, and, and so I did that for like the entire pilot, all the way to end credits. And, uh, and then I do a lot of like graphs and charts, sort of like displaying this story and character arcs for the season. And then I kind of like loosely go through the entire season.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  And so it's like a 45, 50 minute, like immersive experience.

• 1:05:17Sam Fragoso?

  That's amazing. Are you going to send us some of those, uh, those slides?

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  I, I would send it, but then I know that I would spend the week trying to like tweak it and perfect it so that it's presentable.

• 1:05:27Sam Fragoso?

  I knew the moment I asked you is like, he's gonna, he's gonna go, well, if I can edit.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:05:31Sam Fragoso?

  Revise your password that by the way, got you a multi-year overall deal with Netflix.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Sam Fragoso?

  Like it definitely worked.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  It worked, but it could be better.

• 1:05:40Sam Fragoso?

  It could be better. That's good. And it's good. You're still hard on yourself about something that won all the Emmys.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  There are certain episodes I wish they would open up so that we could, there's one of the effects that didn't get uploaded in the finale. Um, and you see all the grass and plants freeze and it pains me and I wish we could update it.

• 1:05:56Sam Fragoso?

  Do you like being a perfectionist?

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 1:05:59Sam Fragoso?

  Is it a colossal pain in the ass?

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  It really, really is. And I wish I could let it go. I think when it comes to work, the reason I can be is because there's like,

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  A tactile thing that like has a frame and a waveform. And like you can like press a thing and it can change. And so you like, there's a, there's a, there's a system in which like you can control the thing to make it perfect. Whereas in real life, like you can't like, like it's like such a, there's so many variables that you can't like, be like, oh, let me like turn up the gain or compress the thing.

• 1:06:38Sam Fragoso?

  Sometimes you're just gonna move from city to city.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So, no, I, I, I, I think it's really just in work that I've, uh, have this like annoying, um, voice that's like, oh, it's not a voice, it's actually like a, just this like sensory thing where you're like, you're like, oh, I know I could tweak that. And, and it's not like it's endless. Once it clicks, it works. You're like, ah, yes, we can move on.

• 1:07:07Sam Fragoso?

  You know, sometimes people accuse me of not talking about myself enough on this show.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Yes, I agree with that.

• 1:07:13Sam Fragoso?

  Um, to which I say, uh, all questions, especially the one I just asked you.

• 1:07:20Sam Fragoso?

  I say they come from a place of recognition.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can tell. I could tell you're, you're very like-minded in that way.

• 1:07:28Sam Fragoso?

  It's an illness.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:30Sam Fragoso?

  Didn't choose it, can't change it.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Are you, would you say that applies to your personal life as well? Or is it more just in, in the avenue of work that, that perfectionist comes out?

• 1:07:40Sam Fragoso?

  How much am I charging you for this?

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Like moving on, next question.

• 1:07:44Sam Fragoso?

  No, but it's true, it's true. But, but, but the work, yeah, I think the wrestling with it, that it can be changed. And that it can be made into something that's perfect, or at least you feel it works.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:07:56Sam Fragoso?

  That's very hard for me to let go of.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  I, I read something, well, I didn't read it, I saw it on Instagram, uh, which I guess is reading. Uh, that there was a study where they like took like, I want to say like 3,000 adults. And they like did a deep dive into everyone's inner monologue. And without fail, what they discovered is that inner monologue is actually one of your parents' voices from a specific year in your childhood.

• 1:08:23Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  And at that, I was like, oh my God. I'm like, that is why that like inner voice is literally, i- i- for me, I think it's like my mom circa like.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  You know.

• 1:08:39Sam Fragoso?

  Ninety three?

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's probably like, like, like fourth to ninth grade era mom voice is my, has become my permanent inner monologue.

• 1:08:52Sam Fragoso?

  And that sounds like what?

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Oh, boy. It is, it's, it's, it's very critical. It's very much like, you know, the Nunchi thing that we talked about. It's like, you know, like, like, how are you being perceived? Like, like, are you checking out that person? Like, are you doing this? Like, are you sure you wanna, don't wanna like push harder on this front? Like, wait, but that little thing could be better, you know? And it was all in an effort to, that, that era also like coincides with like the thing that you referenced earlier, perfect SAT score. Like, I started doing SAT tests, I think, like in sixth grade or something like that. And, and the violin and things like that.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  So it was in, I mean, she's not like that anymore, but like that era, it was like this drive to like, be really, really good at things. And so that's just in there. And when I look at Beef, I'm like, it really kicks into high gear.

• 1:09:52Sam Fragoso?

  Well, because of Beef, you've been part of a few different mentorship programs where, where you talk to younger writers and they ask you for advice. And, and I want to know, like, because you also did mentorship programs when you were coming up, and you did one with NBC.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, Writers on the Verge.

• 1:10:08Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. And, and when you meet with young people today, to, to bring us back to the, the four seasons of the show and the, and the generational divide. Like, what are their dreams and, and their visions? And how does it compare and contrast with the kind of young writer you were?

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  You know, especially like for, for writers and artists of color, like, you know, in terms of like, you know, that even like the, the story I referenced earlier, like, there just wasn't space for, for you to be yourself, like to, to, you had to really, really earn it, you know? You had to do all sorts of 5D chess to get a brief seat at the table to pitch one, one thing that felt true to you. And. And now, you know, it's not like, look, like we're in 2026. The world climate hasn't changed much. If in many ways, some things have gotten worse. But, you know, in writer's room, it is a more diverse room now.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  There is an appetite for different types of stories at networks. So I think what I find sometimes, and again, I don't want to be old man and talking in stereotypes, but something that has come up from time to time with younger writers is they're like, but, you know, my life story is so interesting and good. And I want to have like all the textures and specifics in my script. But then the producer on the network is telling me I have to change it. Like, should I just like fight back? Because in Beef, you have all these interesting textures. How did you do that? And my answer is usually like, one, like, well, no, you should never like pull back on something that you're passionate about.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  But you also have to like, try to understand why someone is reacting that way. And usually it has nothing to do with the textures. Obviously, like a show like Beef can exist with all sorts of specific things. It mostly comes down almost always to the writing craft underneath when it comes to like story math and like where things are landing in terms of like the story chords. And so like, if you're not getting the reaction you want, you almost have to revisit the structure underneath rather than be like, oh, I'm just going to like stubbornly push these cultural specificities. You know, I think the way I work with networks and especially with Netflix, who I have a really good thing with, obviously, is like, it's a two way street. It's a conversation.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  It's like two people at the end of the day trying to agree on something. So you want to try to like, put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand why they're feeling that way. Versus, I think sometimes younger generations feel like, you know, there's a lot of self-love and a lot of boundaries. And it's just like, well, no, I'm not going to compromise myself.

• 1:13:02Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, you came up in a time where your story wasn't necessarily perceived as having value.

• 1:13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:13:09Sam Fragoso?

  I mean, that's the real distinction.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so then you have to get really, really good at. Like, you know, music theory for story. Uh, so that it's entertaining and propulsive and it's hitting all the beats at the right time so that the thing that we're sort of Trojan horsing in, the Korean American diaspora, all that stuff, it just, it's digestible because the music underneath is really, really solid. And, you know, that's something that I'm still trying to get better at, but, uh, that's, when I was coming up, like, you, you couldn't be imperfect in that regard because, uh, you only had one opportunity to, to, I mean, maybe one opportunity even.

• 1:13:54Sam Fragoso?

  You said on the Home Room podcast that since you're now running rooms, uh, that, quote, "Unlike the last generation, we're not going to abuse you, but maybe answer the phone at 6:15 PM."

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  Did I say that or did dumb, dumbfounded say that?

• 1:14:11Sam Fragoso?

  You said it.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:14:13Sam Fragoso?

  Good try.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I stand by it.

• 1:14:19Sam Fragoso?

  Is there, is there, have you noticed that Gen Z has a kind of like do not disturb quality about them?

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  I do find that the do not disturb is on more on their phones, which again, like, it's good to have boundaries and like, obviously like a self-respect for what you're willing to take and what you're not.

• 1:14:38Sam Fragoso?

  What's that concept?

• 1:14:41Speaker 01

  So, well, I'm told there's something called self-love.

• 1:14:45Sam Fragoso?

  Hold on.

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. S E, yep, yep, you got it. And I, I definitely need to improve in that regard, but, uh, but also there's a limited amount of time and resources when you're trying to make a show, especially in TV. Uh, and so something's got to give usually, like someone has to, you know, pick up the slack. And it's usually, you know, me or the H O D, whoever's in charge.

• 1:15:11Sam Fragoso?

  So in 2026, like practically, what do you tell young creative people in this moment? Or what would you like to tell them on this show about what they should do to get to a place, the, to the place that you are now?

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  I think this generation has kind of nailed the be yourself thing, you know, like, obviously like that's advice I would continue to give, it's evergreen, but, you know.

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  I think in addition to the be yourself advice, the other thing that should be coinciding with that is like, put in the 10,000 hours to get exceptionally good at your craft. And whether it's directing or storyboarding or anything that you're doing, just like, you can keep getting better at it. That's the one thing you can control is like how early you wake up and how many hours you're going to put into something. Do that while being yourself and then you can kind of be great at anything you put your mind to. I think we all can. It's just a matter of like, how much are you willing to put into that?

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  And everyone has their own, you know, levels of tolerance. I just, you know, my pain scale for that is quite high.

• 1:16:28Sam Fragoso?

  So to bring us back to the show and kind of the themes we talked about in the beginning. There's a big conversation that's this intergenerational divide and beef between Gen Z and millennial. And you said in one interview, "Much like society were brainwashed by social media and headlines, by those in charge to beef and squabble with each other. You've got Gen Z and millennials having this feud. And really the thing that we should be beefing with is the billionaire characters in society like Chairwoman Park." Where do you see that you're at in this moment? Because you go through all four in the show and we kind of started the conversation talking about the samsara of it all.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:12Sam Fragoso?

  Like where are you at?

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  I mean, one thing we didn't explore in the show intentionally so, because there was a little bit of it in season one was

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  that of a parent. We debated whether Josh and Lindsay would have a kid or not. But it felt more.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  Timely for that, for that couple to, uh, to not have a child. That, that really heightens like, you know, we thought we were young, but then now we're not. And so for me, my season, I think, is a season that's not in the show, which I'm hoping to actually explore in my next project, uh, this, this movie I'm writing, um, with, with actually hopefully Stephen Young. Um, it's, it's something that we've been discussing for a long time and it's a father, daughter, uh, movie. That, that's the season, uh, that I'm in is just, uh, trying to focus on, on my kid and, um, be the dad that, um, you know, I, I, I, I'd hoped, uh, I could be.

• 1:18:17Sam Fragoso?

  Maybe what I'm actually asking you is like, I read this morning that, that the overall deal at Netflix got renewed.

• 1:18:25Sam Fragoso?

  You're writing this X-Men movie.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:29Sam Fragoso?

  You have a home in Calabasas.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:31Sam Fragoso?

  We're a long ways away from the Sonny Lee of silly pipe dreams.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:38Sam Fragoso?

  Like the pipe dream kinda came true.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:42Sam Fragoso?

  I mean, is that, is that, uh, like weird for you to hear or is that, is that weird for you to acknowledge?

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  A little bit. Uh, I, I, cause I don't, it's like weird. Like I still feel like it's all a silly pipe dream.

• 1:19:01Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  You know, um, there's still so much I wanna do. Uh, I, I feel like I'm just starting kind of like, like I really do see season one as like my rookie season. Like, you know, there's elements about season one intentionally showed that are like very grungy and messy and there's some mistakes and on a, on a writing standpoint, certainly on a directing standpoint, it's my first time directing. And, and so this feels more like sophomore season of like, I learned a lot of lessons, but I'm like, I'm hope I'm not a, just like a two season player.

• 1:19:37Sam Fragoso?

  I don't think so.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  It's tough because.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  Everything we've talked about so far with that inner monologue and the struggles and things, what's tough is that the one area, there's two areas where it does things really quiet and one is when I'm working, like it's I'm in a flow state. And so like that part of my self critical brain that's wrestling with why are we here kind of can quiet down. And I can like, just like focus on the task at hand, which is something bigger. It's a collaboration with so many people. Like this show isn't born out of like just my life. It's like hours and hours of conversation with all my collaborators. So what a fun thing that we get to do. I get to turn my brain off and just like give myself up to this

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  like bigger thing. And, and then the other time that happens is when I'm with my daughter, you know, like I can just turn my brain off and I can like just be a child with her in a way. And so here are two areas where I can like finally get some solace and peace from just otherwise like a very like claustrophobic cluttered inner space. And so how do I, how do I juggle those two, which is a new thing that I, that I, a quite new thing that I, I need to figure out and I'm still trying to figure out.

• 1:21:04Sam Fragoso?

  You know, at the end of the season, at the end of season two, there's this monologue from Oscar Isaac. Why don't we play some of that?

• 1:21:15Speaker 04

  Whatever your Achilles heel is, that little spot, I know you think you've got time to work on it and you do that. You actually have a lot of time, but little by little, life's just gonna chip away at it, you know?

• 1:21:34Speaker 04

  And you'll think, okay, well, my shit's not so bad. You know, it was a fleeting thought, a little temptation here and there. But once I get the job, then I'm gonna deal with my shit. But then you gotta get the promotion, right? And then you gotta get the house. And then every interaction becomes about me, me, me. If I do this for Troy, then maybe Troy will help me later. And you start thinking that way because it's the only way to keep your head above water. And then when you finally catch a breath and you go to stand on your own two feet, that Achilles heel is just gonna give out.

• 1:22:16Speaker 04

  And you're gonna fall. And you're gonna grasp at everyone around you.

• 1:22:22Speaker 04

  But it's too late.

• 1:22:24Speaker 04

  You're going down.

• 1:22:28Speaker 04

  And that fleeting thought is who you are now.

• 1:22:35Speaker 04

  And you're never gonna change.

• 1:22:37Sam Fragoso?

  That monologue, do you think that's true?

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  I do. I think, I think time goes by really fast and suddenly,

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  you know, in your youth, in your twenties, you think you have all this time to fix things and fix yourself and, and suddenly you blink and then everything's so rigid, you know? Or it can be. There's ways to keep yourself, like, malleable. I think especially in our industry and what we do. And again, in this climate of limited resources, survival mode kicks in and it does become like, how can I? It becomes me, me, me.

• 1:23:19Sam Fragoso?

  Grasping.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, big time. And that's why these like arenas in which you can

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  Quiet your sense of self, literally like there's MRI scans that can be done when like people are in like deep meditation or under psychedelics or even like running or in a flow state where they actually see blood flow and oxygen decrease in your prefrontal cortex. So you're like sense of self dies down and all these other parts of your brain that never talk to each other connect. Like what can we do in our lives to have that happen more? So much of our lives are trying to do the other thing, you know, there's this, one of my favorite documentaries of all time is Adam Curtis's The Century of Self. It's like mind blowing and you're just like, oh, that's why we are, that's the way that we are. It's like, not our fault.

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  But how do you combat a century of self? It's a daily thing of trying to like, find any which way possible to, to do something outside of yourself, you know?

• 1:24:23Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I want to hold a very concrete flow state, yourself washing away moment to leave.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:24:29Sam Fragoso?

  To end this episode on. Can you walk me through the day you're back home in Korea? You're on the set, shooting season two of the show.

• 1:24:40Sam Fragoso?

  And you're filming out of building that no one gets to really film at.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:44Sam Fragoso?

  Walk me through, through this day of Lee Sung Jin.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Oh, I was like a little kid, like I had a pet at my step.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  You have the great Yoon Hyun Jong, who's just, you know, royalty. And then you have the great incredible Song Gang Ho, who, you know, to me is the greatest actor alive and he's in all my favorite films. And they're saying words that, you know, me and the writers wrote together and.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  And yeah, and then I'm directing it like, what?

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  So yeah, there was this sort of out of body experience where I kept being like, I can't believe this is real. And, and it, you know, definitely makes you like, step up your game. But then, you know, to be doing that and like, trying to like, step up your game and you're like, in it. And then like, then my idol, Director Bong Jin Ho showed up on set. And he, you know, him and his big hair kind of like waddled down the hall and, you know, he, he gave me a hug, like, elbowed me and was like, oh yeah, are you sure you want to frame it like that? And kind of joked with me and

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  it was the absolute best. Like, I like, like, will never, I'll be like, chasing that feeling for the rest of my life because like, it just felt like, oh wow, like, you know. I mean, that, that, in answer to your earlier question about silly pipe dreams and whether that I feel like it's happened, that was actually a moment where I felt like, oh wow, like, one of my silly pipe dreams is reality. And honestly, like, you know, speaking of my parents, like, aside from, like, the show and things like that, and the thing that I see them smile the most at is like, when I tell them like, these stories about like, Director Bong and Director Park and, and YJ

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  and Song Dong Oh, like, they, they, I just had breakfast with them last week and they were like, we can't believe this is real. We can't believe you're really my son. And so, yeah, like, those little moments, they go a long way. It really keeps you motivated.

• 1:27:03Sam Fragoso?

  We talked about that day, December 13th of 2013.

• 1:27:09Sam Fragoso?

  Did any part of you at that bottom, at that rock bottom, did you ever think

• 1:27:17Sam Fragoso?

  that you would trample in your way to this, to this moment, to something like the story you just described? Like, when you hold, when you hold that,

• 1:27:29Sam Fragoso?

  is it conceivable to you?

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, in that moment on that day, like, no, inconceivable for sure.

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's like, li- li- life can be like truly like such a beautiful thing in that way where in one moment, you're like, you can't fathom any of that. Yeah, it feels like very, very dark, but in the moment. But that, that, that is what's so strange about all this is just when I, when, when you said that, when you, when I'm trying to juxtapose those two things, what comes to mind are like, it's a lot, a lot of like really, really good people who, yes, were

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  really there for me and, and, you know, supported me and loved me and, yeah, I think I certainly on my own could not have gone from that point A to point B. So, yeah, it's just, when you say that, I, I just feel really, really grateful for, for a lot of people. And, you know, and even this, I haven't, I haven't reflected on this in this way. And so I'm thankful for you as well to, to allow me the space to, to do that. It, it does put a lot of things into perspective.

• 1:29:03Sam Fragoso?

  I know you know this, but we wouldn't have gone here and I wouldn't have done this and, and poured through the blog spot if what you made wasn't special and, and didn't have all those things we talked about. And I, and I thank you for all the time. You answered every question. You only made fun of me a little bit. Next time you can do it throughout the whole episode if you like.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  Sounds good. Yes, I'm gonna come with some questions next time.

• 1:29:31Sam Fragoso?

  I'm, I'm ready for them. But really, congratulations on the show.

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

• 1:29:37Sam Fragoso?

  Lee Sung Jin.

• 1:30:08Sam Fragoso?

  And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode with Lee Sung Jin, be sure to share the program on social media, tag us at Talk Easy Pod. You can watch the entirety of Beef Season Two over on Netflix. For more episodes in the Beef Lee Sung Jin Universe, I'd recommend Oscar Isaac and Steven Yeun. You can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok at Talk Easy Pod. If you want to purchase one of our mugs, they come in cream or navy. Head on over to talkeasypod.com/shop. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer, Janix Abra. Today's talk was edited by Corey Attad. It was mixed by Andrew

• 1:30:50Sam Fragoso?

  Vastola. It was recorded out of Higher Ground in Los Angeles. Our music, as always, is by Dylan Peck. Illustrations, Chrisha Shanoi. Photographs today come from Julius Chu. Production design by Brittany Ash and Susannah Honey, with production assistance from Neil Mulaney. Our social media is by Sofeen Kavorkian, with research assistance from Callie Saringas. This episode was made in partnership with Higher Ground Media, and I'm Sam Fragopso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next Sunday. Until then, stay safe, and someone.

• 1:31:38Speaker 05

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.

• 1:31:46Speaker 06

  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 1:31:50Speaker 05

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 1:31:52Speaker 06

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 1:31:55Speaker 05

  Thirty-two thousand pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 1:32:01Speaker 05

  Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be. History gets written, then rewritten.

• 1:32:11Speaker 07

  ...written, sometimes by scholars correcting the record, sometimes by committees deciding what a generation of kids will and won't learn. The version that makes it into the textbook isn't always the only story. It's the one that won out. That's the kind of thing Ground News was built for. It shows you how outlets across the spectrum tell the same story, side by side, so you can spot the shading for yourself. Ground News gives each outlet a factuality rating, so you know how much weight to give the source, and shows you who owns it, so you know what's behind it. The Nobel Peace Center called it "an excellent way to stay informed, avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview."

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