Catching Up on ‘Slow Horses,’ ‘The Lowdown,’ and ‘The Chair Company.’ Plus, the ‘Black Rabbit’ Creators!

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Adam Driver and Steven Soderbergh pitched a Kylo Ren ‘Star Wars’ standalone movie that Disney passed on (5:17), before checking in on ‘Slow Horses,’ (9:21) ‘The Lowdown,’ (26:38) and ‘The Chair Company’ (40:22). Later, Chris is joined by ‘Black Rabbit’ series creators Zach Baylin and Kate Susman to discuss how they balanced the dueling tones of the show, working with Jason Bateman and Jude Law, why it was important to make it feel so authentic to New York City, and more (51:48). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Zach Baylin and Kate Susman Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro-football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:31Speaker 03

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• 2:00Andy Greenwald?

  I ain't sports to have to play with. Stand up and walk now.

• 2:06Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com. And joining me on the other line, worth approximately $24 a share, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 2:22Andy Greenwald?

  I regret to inform you, the FTSE's already closed here and my market cap is decreased.

• 2:27Chris Ryan?

  Is your stock upside down, brother?

• 2:29Andy Greenwald?

  It's not where I want it to be.

• 2:30Chris Ryan?

  Is Rishi kind of going long on you, but only to short other things?

• 2:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but it's also like late season three Rishi. It's not early days Rishi.

• 2:40Chris Ryan?

  Right. It's white Christmas Rishi. Andy, it's just really, really important to see you today. Today on The Watch, we're going to take a spin through some of the TV that we possibly neglected while we were diving deep on Task. We did our Task finale pod, came out Sunday night. There was an interview with Brad Englesby, the creator of Task, in that podcast. I really enjoyed that chat. Thanks to everybody who rode with us through the green forests of Delco. Sad to see that show over, but there's a lot of good TV on right now and a lot of good TV coming. So I'm excited to hit Slow Horses, do a check in there, do a check in on The Lowdown, and then get into The Chair Company, which has aired its first two episodes on HBO Max. I also have my interview with Zach Baylin and Kate Sussman, who are the writers and creators of Black Rabbit,

• 3:24Chris Ryan?

  which is a show I really enjoyed on Netflix from a couple of weeks ago. It aired, or it's still airing, but it debuted a couple of weeks ago on Netflix and was one that I just really enjoyed top to bottom. I found it very, very entertaining. So it's a really fun conversation with Zach and Kate.

• 3:40Andy Greenwald?

  I also do want to, I know you love it when I do this, I do directly want to address the rumors that have been swirling out there that I was on some sort of, you know, because I've only, I've only talked to Ask. Yeah, I also do want to, I know you love it when I do this, I do directly want to address the rumors that have been swirling out there that I was on some sort of, you know, because I've only, I've only talked to Ask with you in the last like 10 days since I've been in London.

• 4:02Chris Ryan?

  That you were like only, Max only for me?

• 4:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, yeah. And to those of you who thought it was because there was an episode of The Rewatchables devoted to my favorite film Sneakers, to which I was not a party, the answer is yes. That was my quiet quitting.

• 4:18Chris Ryan?

  So your way of doing this is you're just going to talk about HBO Max Sunday night shows? And you think that's different how from what you?

• 4:26Andy Greenwald?

  Listen, there's a soft power at work here that maybe you can't see right now. But between that and my Act Blue donations, I think that I'm really accomplishing a lot.

• 4:35Chris Ryan?

  Can I tell you about last night? I got home from work and I was tucking into a bowl of chopped salad.

• 4:44Andy Greenwald?

  That's not where I thought that was going.

• 4:46Chris Ryan?

  And I was like-

• 4:46Andy Greenwald?

  That really had big chunky soup energy.

• 4:48Chris Ryan?

  No, no, no, no. And I'm not a big soup guy, but put that aside. I-

• 4:53Andy Greenwald?

  You're not?

• 4:54Chris Ryan?

  -watched the inaugural evening of NBA on NBC.

• 5:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it's back, right.

• 5:01Chris Ryan?

  Which came back with very nice production values and just a feeling of like, hey, this is an event, not just like slop that we're putting on four nights a week. Now, that will probably change after four nights. But the feeling was like, actually, like, there was a lot of anticipation. Roundball Rock gets played. They have kind of like the vintage NBA on NBC logo and vibe. And you're just like, oof.

• 5:27Andy Greenwald?

  That gets you going.

• 5:28Chris Ryan?

  What do they say online? Return? You know, like, I'm getting into this. And I was kind of sitting around thinking, boy, wouldn't it be cool?

• 5:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, okay.

• 5:36Chris Ryan?

  What would happen if one week NBC was just like, we're just gonna run shit from the 80s?

• 5:41Andy Greenwald?

  Dude.

• 5:41Chris Ryan?

  Like, we're just gonna pretend it's 1988 for the entire week or 1989 and then like run and like everything is vintage. And then I got as far as, what about Cosby? Not funny, but I was like, we should skip that part.

• 5:58Andy Greenwald?

  That's fine. I think that you, first of all, you do your best thinking when you're exhausted, clearly. And when John Tesh is ringing around in there, I appreciate that.

• 6:05Chris Ryan?

  When the Harvest Bowl comes in, that's when it really comes together.

• 6:09Andy Greenwald?

  Here's the thing.

• 6:12Andy Greenwald?

  We are involved in the entertainment industry, you know, in different ways. We exist due to its good grace, its dwindling good graces. So we shouldn't be giving away existentially ruinous ideas for free. That said-

• 6:29Andy Greenwald?

  If you wanted to end all of this, NBC would just have to do what you suggested, but for 2005. If NBC just ran medium and the supersized episodes of The Office, its ratings would be unchanged, A. It would be eventized. People would tune in to see it. And all of this would come crumbling down. Like, so much of what we cover is based on the idea, this glimmering golden city on a hill, that we can bring it back.

• 7:00Chris Ryan?

  I know. I honestly-

• 7:02Andy Greenwald?

  We can bring it back.

• 7:02Chris Ryan?

  I think where there should be a week where like Fox runs 24, ABC runs lost. Let's just go back. Let's just go back to when it was, when it was simple and true.

• 7:12Andy Greenwald?

  Do it like Jack. Do it like Jack. Say we have to go back. It's right there for you.

• 7:15Chris Ryan?

  Bob Iger. Hey, speaking of Bob Iger, I-

• 7:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, man.

• 7:20Chris Ryan?

  Wanted to know if you saw the story where Adam Driver and Steven Soderbergh and Scott Burns pitched a Ben Solo Star Wars sequel? And that even Filoni was like, this is pretty sick. Like, this is a pretty cool idea? And they were like, yes, yes, yes. And then they got to Bob Iger and Bob Iger was like, you gotta be fucking kidding me, guys.

• 7:40Andy Greenwald?

  A couple of things here. Did I see it? Do you understand that my existence for these weeks is that I have like eight hours of just silence in which you and everyone I love is asleep and I can't talk to them about the news that Steven Soderbergh and Adam Driver pitched a Star Wars movie? So, yeah, I'm pretty aware. I'm pretty aware. Two, it's fucking nuts that that's Bob Iger's bright line that can't be crossed.

• 8:08Chris Ryan?

  You shall not cross.

• 8:10Andy Greenwald?

  Like, do you think that there is any way we can do kind of like cross tabs reporting on what else was going on the day that that came across his transom? Because like, was that the day that his wife Willow Bay called and was like, Bob, Bob, LAFC is too woke. Like, we have to focus on women's soccer. And he's like, great, right, just clear everything off today. They're like, but sir, Steven and Adam. No, no, we can't focus on that today.

• 8:35Chris Ryan?

  No, it sounded like he actually engaged with the idea and was like, we, Ben Solo's dead, though. As if that has ever stopped anything in Star Wars before.

• 8:45Andy Greenwald?

  Willow owns Angel City. I'm sorry, not LAFC. It's a sister club, which I, it's a great time out at the old ball yard. Anyway.

• 8:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, it well, first of all, we do want creative executives. I think that's spiritually not a bad thing, but of all the fucking things to get worried about. Also, I do you've talked to Soderbergh on the podcast before, right?

• 9:08Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 9:09Andy Greenwald?

  Like, I need a little more context to the actual tangible dream work product that exists. Because there are there's Soderbergh and

• 9:22Chris Ryan?

  The Skypod needs to leak.

• 9:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. Right, or like he and Tony were gonna do Bond, or they were gonna do Star Wars. Like, there's so many dream projects as far as that exist. And every time they leak and it gets to the press, it's always like, oh, a draft was written. Like, is it a is it a is it a final draft? Is it a note? Is it a notes app?

• 9:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:40Andy Greenwald?

  Was it a fever dream? Like, it's so it's so bizarre to me.

• 9:45Chris Ryan?

  Did you see what it was called?

• 9:47Andy Greenwald?

  The hunt for Ben Solo? Yo, that's the kind of name I came up with.

• 9:51Chris Ryan?

  That's what my next pod is gonna be called. That's my solo pod.

• 9:55Andy Greenwald?

  I told you about how I told you, I've also said this on the podcast, that like in

• 10:00Chris Ryan?

  It's the same thing.

• 10:01Andy Greenwald?

  It's true. This is our this is our time together. This is our me time. In, I want to say like 1983, like after Return of the Jedi came out, I was on the playground in, I guess, first grade. And my best friend was like, I'm in the Star Wars fan club. And I was like, that's so cool. And he's like, I get a magazine. And I was like, I want a magazine. That's awesome. He's like, also, they're making a fourth film. It's called Revenge of the Jedi, and I get to be in it. You can be in it, too. What color lightsaber do you want? And I was like, this is the greatest day of my life. How fortuitous that I'm friends with you. And I came home with the same open-hearted spirit with which I love task and said to my parents, great news.

• 10:44Chris Ryan?

  I will be in Revenge of the Jedi.

• 10:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. And my parents were like, Jedis don't seek revenge. They are wise, wise tax collectors. No, what? They were like, maybe you should find other friends. Like, maybe this friend is a bit of a fabulous, as they say later. Anyway, I bring this up only to say That the hunt for Ben Solo is not that different than Revenge of the Jedi is coming and you could pick your lightsaber.

• 11:08Chris Ryan?

  I know.

• 11:09Andy Greenwald?

  And Soderbergh is doing it. That's fucking crushing.

• 11:12Chris Ryan?

  Where of these shows, would you like to start with the show that we haven't spoken about with The Chair Company? Would you like to check in on Slow Horses? Or would you like to check in on Low Down?

• 11:20Andy Greenwald?

  I was gonna say Slow Horses first.

• 11:21Chris Ryan?

  You're close to Ground Zero there. You're close to like the epicenter. What are the streets of London saying about this season of Slow Horses?

• 11:29Andy Greenwald?

  My colleague at work here who lives at the Barbican said that she and her son were catching a bus outside the Barbican relatively recently. And the bus came and then they started to get on it and then realized that everyone else on the bus was an extra because they were filming Slow Horses season six. And because it was such a quiet morning, they hadn't even like shut down the street. That's how in the streets that show is. Okay, yeah, I want to have a conversation with you about this. And I'm glad we're having it after the penultimate episode.

• 12:00Chris Ryan?

  Yes, episode five. So we'll do spoilers for season five through episode five through Circus.

• 12:06Andy Greenwald?

  I have to confess to you and to our loyal listeners that I was dangerously wavering on my commitment to this show after episode four. I was more out than I've ever been on a show that I am just essentially consistently in on. And I was shaken because you, you know, you came out hot. You were like, I've seen this season the best since the first one.

• 12:31Chris Ryan?

  That's what I thought. I think, yes.

• 12:33Andy Greenwald?

  So I, let's chop it up.

• 12:35Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 12:35Andy Greenwald?

  Because, and here, here's what I'll say. And I'll also foreground this by saying episode five was much better, I thought, and brought me back into the fold. So I'm not saying this from outside of Sly House. I'm saying it from within.

• 12:48Chris Ryan?

  Sure. Yeah. You've come back into the fold of Spies Do.

• 12:51Andy Greenwald?

  One of, I thought that there are two issues at play here. Neither of them are

• 13:01Andy Greenwald?

  Problematic for a long-running, successful TV show that's a good hang. So let's all understand that, okay? But at the end of episode four, when Co descends a rickety painter scaffolding, causing a Rube Goldberg-like hijinks event when a paint pot, and by the way, everyone's like, oh, in England, they drive on the left and they stay flat. The weirdest thing is their devotion to the word pot. Like, you can go to Pret and get a protein pot. Get a granola pot. Could I have a pot of sauce with that?

• 13:34Chris Ryan?

  As opposed to bowl?

• 13:35Andy Greenwald?

  Or cup.

• 13:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 13:37Andy Greenwald?

  Or a side of.

• 13:38Chris Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 13:38Andy Greenwald?

  So paint pot, I was like, I'm in my bag. I know what they're saying, even though it sounds weird. Falls on the fascist head, killing him instantly. And then River and Co are like, right, I guess we should be going then. Goodness.

• 13:53Andy Greenwald?

  I was like, this plus the Ho stuff has pushed the show so far into comic absurdity that its attempts to create a different feeling of stakesiness or real politic or real life, anything, as it did in the actually quite harrowing mass shooting event that opened the season, it rendered that completely moot to me. I thought that was just tonally too far.

• 14:19Andy Greenwald?

  Which, when I went back to this episode, I was like, okay, re-scramble my brain. Why do I always want it to be a little bit more than it is? This is a reliable comedy program. And when I tuned in last night's episode as a reliable comedy program, I had a fine time. But I want to know where you are with it, because in every season, it teases us with inching a little bit towards the grittier or at least a little bit more lived-in plausible espionage show that I think you and I would like. And then it is ultimately quite silly.

• 14:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, well, we're talking about something that's obviously going to be a very long-running experience, once it's all said and done. We've got at least seven seasons coming. I wouldn't be surprised if they get to 10. You could even make the argument that Will Smith is going to come back and do Secret Hours, which is the 90s Berlin set sort of prequel spinoff.

• 15:09Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 15:09Chris Ryan?

  There's all sorts of stuff like. Gary Oldman loves playing the part. It's a hit. It's doing very well for Apple. I think everybody is like in loose agreement that this show can run for basically as long as it wants. So, accepting that and accepting that there are certain pillars of this show that I think they're gonna wanna keep not only in place but static in their presentation, i.e. I don't think Lamb is going on Ozempic anytime soon. You have to sort of accept like what you're saying. Those situational comedy tropes that are gonna keep characters exactly where they are because the jokes and the, you know, the outcomes are very familiar. That being said, the reason why I reacted so positively towards this season

• 15:52Chris Ryan?

  was exactly because of the Rube Goldberg stuff. Because if you were really gonna be out there in the world kicking shit over and jumping through windows and chasing people onto trains and all this stuff that happens, I like the idea of, albeit for comic purposes, something that nobody could control happening. And the idea of something where this guy dying, which is something I think many people within the show were like, fine with, this mayoral candidate Gimble who's running against Nick Muhammad's character, was a sort of very, very lightly dressed up Sadiq Khan character, who's the current London mayor.

• 16:37Chris Ryan?

  That character Gimble like is such a buffoon, but it is interesting that he would not die because of an assassination or because slow horses have caught him in an act of espionage, but just over something stupid. And stupid things do happen in the world. Now, maybe not as

• 16:54Andy Greenwald?

  We're seeing it daily.

• 16:56Chris Ryan?

  Not as much of a Naked Gun-esque psych gag as what happened, but I liked the idea that there was still some unpredictability to the show. The whole thing is different. I think I would have been fine, and I generally am, with the character arc for him this season, had it not been kind of presented as a whole new side of Roddy Ho. It's essentially the same guy in a different room with some different characters.

• 17:21Andy Greenwald?

  And I think it's too much. Like, again, if the comp for the show is Frasier, then it seems churlish to complain about how Niles is prissy all the time, no matter where he goes.

• 17:36Andy Greenwald?

  And the best moments of the show, moments that I was praising effusively in episodes one and two of the season, are just incredibly sharp, rewarding instances of pure situational comedy. The writers, in this case Will Smith, knows these characters so well, you put them in any circumstance and you just let them write themselves almost. They bounce off each other, it's sparkling, it's funny, it's familiar, it's comforting, it's good. I think this sort of shocking thing is, and again, like, it's a comedy and it's broad and it has its own tone and these are things that I celebrate, but like, it is, there's a moment in, I think in this episode where they're like, I don't know, just Rivers, like, well, we're gonna be fired from MI5.

• 18:18Andy Greenwald?

  And I'm like, it's fucking insane that MI5 is paying Ho and Ho. Like, you're paying these people.

• 18:26Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 18:26Andy Greenwald?

  Like, and Ho is acting like someone who's not even on Earth. Ho is acting like someone who's beamed in from an episode of Family Guy, next to Kristen Scott Thomas. It's just, it's loving his thing so much that I think the larger project starts to wobble. And then, similarly, there are just some odd choices that I think, maybe they're not odd, I think they're telling us more about the show. You mentioned Nick Muhammad, who is, I think, a comedian, comedic actor, he's on Ted Lasso, I believe, he's well-known here in comedy scene. All due respect to him, he is not a plausible political figure on an hour-long television drama. He's just, he's not, he does not have the charisma or the weight.

• 19:09Chris Ryan?

  But I don't know if they would call it an hour-long television drama.

• 19:11Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, sure. So, that's telling us something else, and then that's telling us something that doesn't jive with the opening of the season. It just sort of, it, I think the reason I'm bumping on the season is because it laid down an interesting marker, and one of the things I love about the show, and we've commented on the past, is that every season, it tries on a new pair of clothes. And that, in and of itself, is great. So, next season, new book, different vibes, possibly different cast, super into it. Last thing I want to bring up, that is kind of a criticism, but I'm curious your take on. Gary Oldman's performance of this is timeless. It is a classic television character brought to life by one of the best actors of his generation. I don't have any problems with it.

• 19:56Andy Greenwald?

  That said, I do feel, no, more, in fact, let's lean more into it. I was glad this season, at least, he actually started using the toilet and then that became a plot point, you know, like, don't tease me. I think the issue that I'm bumping against, and I'm curious how you feel about it, is that this is season five of Jackson Lamb not just being flatulent and amusing, being absolutely omniscient, and never being flapped, and knowing everything that's going on 30 seconds to 30 hours before every single other person on the show.

• 20:34Chris Ryan?

  He is the omniscient reader, not even narrator, he is the omniscient reader of this series, yeah.

• 20:38Andy Greenwald?

  And ultimately, five seasons in, I find that limiting. Now, I'm not saying I want a Jackson Lamb trauma arc where we learn what broke him. I don't care. But it would be nice to see him wobble. It would be nice to see him on his back foot once, you know, because the story, just servicing the actor, eating Jaffa cakes and doing the job that the, one of the Five Eyes Nation's Secret Service cannot even be bothered to begin to do properly. This is a cumulative nitpick, but it is a five seasons into it nitpick.

• 21:14Chris Ryan?

  So, my favorite moment of this season so far happens in episode three where Oldman gets three minutes to absolutely cook. And he does the Berlin anecdote where he seemingly makes up a story about a Stasi, the Stasi in East Germany torturing one of his spies, and then torturing that spy's girlfriend in front of him. And the guy, the spy gets the end of this experience and is like, I just, I would have given you the name, I just don't even know it. And there is a moment after this story is, you know, it's used as a signal to the other slow horses of how to get themselves out of this being held

• 21:59Chris Ryan?

  captive situation. And it's very ingenious, but...

• 22:03Chris Ryan?

  Oldman plays that story straight, delivers it in the like, holy shit, this is Gary Oldman way.

• 22:10Andy Greenwald?

  Unbelievable.

• 22:10Chris Ryan?

  And then he gets outside and Standish is like, that was you, wasn't it? You know, were you the spy in, who got tortured? And he was like, I made it up. You, you know, don't be daft, you know? And but as he turns around and starts walking up the sidewalk, we get one last look at Oldman's facial expression. And there is a suggestion that it might've been real, right?

• 22:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 22:31Chris Ryan?

  And that it might've been if it, if he wasn't the one who was tortured, you know, that it was a real story.

• 22:37Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:38Chris Ryan?

  And it was so good. And there is obviously this connective tissue between Standish, her old boss,

• 22:48Chris Ryan?

  uh, the Jackson Lamb.

• 22:50Andy Greenwald?

  Charles Price's character.

• 22:51Chris Ryan?

  And River's grandfather, David. And it goes back to Berlin and it goes back to a mole hunt and trying to flush out Charles, who was Standish's boss. And we see flashbacks of that and we see moments of that, and especially earlier in the series itself. And I do feel like that stuff is so good.

• 23:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 23:13Chris Ryan?

  That you kind of want just a little bit more. You just want like a little bit more, not necessarily of my trauma arc or black and white flashback. But why is Lamb so cruel to Standish? Why is Lamb?

• 23:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 23:30Chris Ryan?

  So have such a complicated relationship with River where he seems so dead set on punishing him, but also acknowledges.

• 23:38Andy Greenwald?

  Keeping, keeping him close.

• 23:39Chris Ryan?

  He keeps him close. And I think that one of the reasons why the show kind of took off immediately for me was its willingness to kill its starlings, you know? Quite literally in, in the first season. And it's not that I just want a higher body count on slow horses, but I do want a higher narrative body count. So I agree with you on that part. The thing I think that the show gets right this season is the compression of both time and space. It is a London thriller. This is taking place over a matter of days. And it really does feel like these people are racing against a clock and paired up in these very interesting ways this season that I think is just so repeatedly entertaining over the course of the series.

• 24:22Andy Greenwald?

  What is, what is Flight's deputy named?

• 24:24Chris Ryan?

  Devon. Devon.

• 24:27Andy Greenwald?

  Devon got out to Heathrow pretty fast and I don't know if she took the Lizzie line or what, but like I did bump a little bit on that. Like this is, this is me watching this show is us watching collateral anytime in the last six years, you know, a little bit of that.

• 24:41Chris Ryan?

  But you know, I asked Michael Mann about collateral traffic. He was like, no, it's possible. I was like, LAX, the downtown 20 minutes, rush hour, come on.

• 24:50Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, they say in the eighties, there was less traffic. Um, not that the movie was set then. Um, yeah, I, I think that's well said and I think I missed some of that flavor from these most recent seasons. I think that, you know, for me and my taste, the like Rivers dad is a supervillain storyline was not the version of a secret history looming over all this that I was interested in so much. Um, I just think there were small things like James Callis, who plays Claude Wieland, the smarmy first desk is just cooking. He's, he embodies this part. It's a great part. It's been great seeing him do more.

• 25:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I mean, he's so amazing in Battlestar. So it's really great to see him pop up here.

• 25:32Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right. That's one of your favorite shows. You love Battlestar and you don't like soup. This, these are just the things that you just toss.

• 25:38Chris Ryan?

  Still need a hot, wet food. Yeah.

• 25:41Andy Greenwald?

  It's the, if I could have soup for every meal, I would, every day.

• 25:45Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 25:46Andy Greenwald?

  That like that, and, and, and I could have my, my blue lightsaber for Revenge of the Jedi and I would just be a different, I'd be a happier guy. Anyway, the, the Claude thing that I wanted to say is it's, it's, I know it's just churlish to be like, I wish this, I wish that, but like he was front footed for so much of this week's episode, you know, and sort of like putting himself into the fray, running Terra.

• 26:09Chris Ryan?

  The double heist trap. Yeah.

• 26:11Andy Greenwald?

  All of that. That was nice to see. And I just wish it wasn't out of the realm of possibility for the show for him to have a shred of capability. That it wasn't like his involvement in it was the tell that they were just getting cooked, you know, and, and I, and I just wish the show wasn't so committed to lamb good at everything. We land bad at everything, taverners cross about everything.

• 26:37Chris Ryan?

  I think that there is.

• 26:39Andy Greenwald?

  Three.

• 26:40Chris Ryan?

  It's almost more helpful to view this as like a, an extension of Ian Nucci than it is an extension of McCarran.

• 26:46Andy Greenwald?

  I totally agree.

• 26:47Chris Ryan?

  And so it's like in, in Veep or in the thick of it, it's like there's Malcolm, who's better at everything than everybody. And then there is a bunch of twits around him. And you're like, how is this the British government? But it is, you know? And the same thing for Veep, you know?

• 27:03Andy Greenwald?

  So let me then just extend the Ian Nucci analogy, the Ian analogy, just slightly to say that Ian Nucci left his own creation, Veep, after the first few seasons. And it is one of, if not the only successful showrunner transitions. You know, I, whenever this comes up, I say, West Wing actually was pretty good when John Wells took over. So there are very few of these. Now, it is not the same because it is not someone completely different. I don't, I forget the name of the guy who's taking over, but he has worked on the show. I think he probably comes from roughly the same coaching tree. But I'm just gonna, I'm, I'm gonna devil's advocate, I'm gonna devil's advocate it. Maybe it's good to have a different voice in.

• 27:44Andy Greenwald?

  Now, I know that we're adapting books by McCarran, and so it's not gonna deviate. But maybe New Showrunner will have slightly different take on something or a different interest in something, and it might just be a different flavoring in the stew for season six.

• 27:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Andy Greenwald?

  And not to change it, but I wouldn't mind. I wouldn't mind.

• 28:03Chris Ryan?

  It's really interesting that you're having this reaction to this season. I thought, I, I mean, I, I know that the Rube Goldberg thing in four is really not your bag, or it needs to be a different show for that to be your bag. You know, like that, that idea of like, isn't this, isn't this a bit funny? Let's just trot off now.

• 28:21Andy Greenwald?

  It's just that, it's just the same emotional beats for me, for them to, to stumble out, not knowing what they're doing, fuck up, and then have Gary Oldham be like, you fucking donkeys.

• 28:32Chris Ryan?

  But I've also been coordinating this so that I protect you the entire time.

• 28:36Andy Greenwald?

  Just give me a different rhythm.

• 28:37Chris Ryan?

  Um, speaking of rhythms, let's talk about Lowdown.

• 28:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, hell yeah.

• 28:42Chris Ryan?

  Because this is a, a rhythm that I can dance to, uh, that I am pretty locked in. And I think that, um, so are you, you're current with this show through last night's episode? One of my favorite shows of the year, and I think is getting. To that point where I'm thrilled every time I turn it on because I have no idea what I'm gonna get, even though I know I'm going to get a reliable feeling. So it almost becomes an album by a great, by a band that you've got a long-term relationship with and you're just like, I know it's gonna sound awesome and I'm going to like it, but I have no idea where they're going on this one. And so you have an episode like five, I believe it was,

• 29:24Chris Ryan?

  I can't remember the name of it, and maybe it was This Land or something like that, the Dinklage, where Dinklage shows up and plays-

• 29:30Andy Greenwald?

  Right, we didn't really talk about that.

• 29:31Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and, and just gives a tour de force for like 45 minutes. And then the episode itself ends with the most harrowing, bracing, dangerous, scary, possible-like scene, which is Lee being led through, being arrested, driven out into the middle of nowhere, and then led through the world's scariest house party, full of cops grilling, shooting guns, setting off bombs, and he's being guided all the way up to this like gazebo area where there are a shadowy figure is standing, watching over all of his Tulsa police officers partying

• 30:12Chris Ryan?

  and blowing stuff up. And it turns out to be Donald Washberg, Kyle MacLachlan's character, and Kyle MacLachlan has been playing this character, slightly like, you know, like, oh, I'm just a political operator buffoon kinda guy, love to, love to sleep with my, my brother's wife and just gotta try to make as much money. And he gets this new evil coat of paint, uh, at the end of this-

• 30:33Andy Greenwald?

  He's the devil.

• 30:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:35Andy Greenwald?

  It was fucking thrilling to watch that sequence. It's like a wonder, and it, it has the energy, if not the, like, the firepower of the Boogie Nights firework, firecracker scene, except this is the rural, outdoor version of it.

• 30:50Chris Ryan?

  Well, it's also confirmation of everything Lee- Fears and thinks, right? That there is a grand conspiracy between the political apparatus and law enforcement. And that this is sort of the manifestation of his nightmares, of his writing, of his work. These people, these guys all out here way too heavily armed, militarized. And it's this just incredible end note to an episode. And I am here for both sides of Lowdown. I'm here for the JJK shuffling along Tulsa Guitar part of it. And I'm here for the operatic peek into the American abyss part.

• 31:31Andy Greenwald?

  And I gotta say, that's a really hard two step to pull off.

• 31:35Chris Ryan?

  Hell, yeah.

• 31:36Andy Greenwald?

  One of the hardest things about making a mystery television show, he said with some 2020 hindsight, is making every step of the mystery feel urgent and feel like there's a clock and there's a necessity to solve it, or that someone is in danger, or there's a sense of, you know, gathering storm clouds. Well, also, taking time to digress, taking time to see the sights, taking time to slow down or drive into a cul-de-sac. I've found the way Sterling Harjo has unspooled that energy this season to be pretty masterful because it snuck up on you.

• 32:16Andy Greenwald?

  There was this undercurrent of some kind of generic evil of white men in half zips. The card turn of this episode that we're talking about from this week, which is episode six, it's called Old Indian Trick. It's, it's written by Jason Sack, directed by Dennis Goulet. And by the way, I sure am not the only one of us who noticed that next week's episode is written by Walter fucking Mosley.

• 32:40Chris Ryan?

  I can't believe it. Then next week is the penultimate episode and then Harjo is back for the finale Sensitive Kind on November 4th.

• 32:47Andy Greenwald?

  The fact that this is, it's to your point, it is a conspiracy theorist discovering that there is a conspiracy. But a conspiracy theorist discovering that there's not a conspiracy, there's like a historical obscenity. The fact that, and, and, you know, I almost don't feel prepared to talk about this specific detail generally culturally, but then also without the full view of the series, but. This was the episode when the Indian culture of Oklahoma that was the backbone of Reservation Dogs, Sterling's previous show, bubbled up. And that was always there. It's always there. It's who he is. It's what he knows. It's part of, and it's part of the lifeblood of the Tulsa that he has shown us in everything that he's ever done. So it's not like this was a deviation from that.

• 33:32Andy Greenwald?

  But this episode put Ethan Hawke as the, what does Keith David call him early on? Like the white boy who has

• 33:37Chris Ryan?

  A white man who cares too much.

• 33:39Andy Greenwald?

  The worst possible thing. Yes. Puts him into the hall, the store, the fucking, you know, centuries of torment and blood and pillage. And he puts him right in the middle of it. And it gives this show a sense of weight that I think people who may have tapped out after, well, they didn't tap out after Peter Dinklage punched Ethan Hawke in the balls and then they wrestled around on a gravestone. But, you know, maybe people who were like, I get that this is a cool hangout show, but I'm not necessarily, that's not my space right now. It is a cool hangout show on the surface, like, and then you realize that what they're rolling around in is a graveyard.

• 34:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And I found that really emotionally affecting. You never feel like you're at a lecture. You never feel like you are doing, doing good by watching this show. And I love how this series itself is basically following the same ethos as Lee's true story in journalism, where it's digging deeper and scratching and clawing. And now the series in this most recent episode, in Old Indian Trick, introduces us to what I guess is, I would only imagine is the actual heavy of the show, which is Paul Sparks's Pastor Mark, who runs a

• 34:58Andy Greenwald?

  Can we just say?

• 34:59Chris Ryan?

  Aarian nationalist evangelical church out in the middle of nowhere.

• 35:04Andy Greenwald?

  But is there some group chat?

• 35:08Andy Greenwald?

  Where just people just post Nate because this episode alone, right? Has Keith David and Kyle McLaughlin just fucking cooking? And then it also, over the course of these past few, past few episodes, he swaps out Scott Shepard for Paul Sparks. Like he got all those dudes.

• 35:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:27Andy Greenwald?

  Like all the dudes who are the best at being dudes and are actually incredible actors and like to work.

• 35:33Chris Ryan?

  Paul Sparks leading Tracy Letts into the middle of nowhere to be greeted by like 15 automatic weapon bearing bikers.

• 35:44Andy Greenwald?

  And there's something about like, I don't know, I don't feel like I'm alone in saying this, but like, there is a like a palpable energy exchange when you watch actors who just really fucking love acting, act. And so I was watching that scene of those two guys and I'm watching it because I'm very much into the show and I really liked the way that I'm sure this was Sterling and his editors and you know, in, in post, like chop that scene up.

• 36:08Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:09Andy Greenwald?

  So we have Tracy's character saying, I was threatened. And then, you know, we're backfilling that story. We're seeing it after he's already announced it, after he's made it out of there alive. So I'm watching it, I'm hanging on it, but I'm also looking at Paul Sparks being like, I wonder what Paul Sparks said when he came out of his trailer. Was it just, yeah, I got this.

• 36:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I think most of these guys seem like they're all, first of all, it's like Tracy Letts' scene partner for most of the last couple of episodes has been Tom McCarthy. So it's like, these guys are just like.

• 36:39Andy Greenwald?

  It's fucking Tom McCarthy.

• 36:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:41Andy Greenwald?

  What?

• 36:42Chris Ryan?

  And they're just like, I can do this. And then I think that there must be something where like, when a white man of a certain age tucks his cowboy shirt into Levi's or Wranglers and puts that belt on, he's like, I know how to walk. I know how to talk. I, do you know what I mean? Cause like Paul Sparks is just like leading Kyle McLaughlin up to that ridge and telling him this biblical story. Uh, but also a historical story about Oklahoma land rush. And, uh, it's just so good, man. I.

• 37:12Andy Greenwald?

  It, it, it's not, I was talking to a writer here last night about this, that like. The really, really good showrunners, writer, directors, whatever, it's not just about casting. It's about knowing and loving the actors you're casting so that you just, it's like being a, it's like being a coach or a manager, right? You put them in the position to succeed. You put them in the best possible light so they will show out on game day. And like, it's just a murderer's murderer's row. And that's not even mentioning that we may have just also been gifted the actor Graham Greene's last appearance.

• 37:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 37:51Andy Greenwald?

  He passed away earlier this year. This episode was dedicated to him. He is playing the street artist's grandfather, who developed a relationship with Dale Washburn, Dale Washberg. And the character is not, not well. And we have no, I don't know what Graham Greene's health was, but he, he is very compelling in this part because he brings his gravitas and his humor, much like he did in Reservation Dogs. And you're like, I don't know. I don't know why I'm, I'm extremely sentimental in a weird way about the show because I'm like, it just must have been a sick day on set.

• 38:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:27Andy Greenwald?

  Because Hawk loves this shit. Graham Greene knows how to do this shit. It's cool to watch.

• 38:32Chris Ryan?

  And I asked Sterling at the event that we did a few weeks ago about the challenges of going from something that I think he probably really had his arms wrapped around, which was Reservation Dogs, to doing something where it's like, okay, man, now like, we all love mysteries. We all fancy ourselves like sleuths and crime writers in the making. But I've tried, like, I've tried to think through stories like, that's fucking hard, bro. Like, to be like, here is a three level conspiracy. Here's 12 characters. Here's what they're saying to each other at any given point. And most importantly is here's how you move the story along in a way that makes sense to the audience, but remains compelling and mysterious enough

• 39:16Chris Ryan?

  that they're like, I haven't quite figured this out yet. And, you know, there's a lot of scenes of people driving and doing expository dialogue. But when you do it with the level of, I don't know, vulnerability and presence and- And versumillitude, but also just like care and love that they're doing it.

• 39:32Andy Greenwald?

  And curiosity too, I think.

• 39:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. If Keith David and Kyle McLaughlin want to sit in a Kia and tell me what I just watched a scene ago, because they have to also explain, I'm like, I don't give a shit.

• 39:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 39:44Chris Ryan?

  I don't give a shit. Kyle McLaughlin being like, that's why you get a broker, because you don't have to deal with crazy guys like this.

• 39:51Andy Greenwald?

  He is great on the show. And as a longtime Kyle fan, like seeing him just get to play the heavy.

• 39:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. When Keith David's like, what did he do to you? Like, what did this guy? He's like, he's prying.

• 40:03Andy Greenwald?

  But also he's playing a heavy without quotes around it. Do you know what I mean? He's not like camping it up. He's not like winging.

• 40:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:11Andy Greenwald?

  Did you ask Sterling about his decision, his some would say radical decision to cast himself as guy sitting on a picnic table outside of a food hall?

• 40:19Chris Ryan?

  That episode when we did the interview. So I had no idea. But yeah, nice jacket. It was cool.

• 40:24Andy Greenwald?

  That's also not him. I want to get to the bottom of that. Maybe we'll talk to him at the end of the season, which is like, I get showrunners who don't do cameos. I get showrunners who do cameos. Like, I feel like when, when our friend Sam Esmael cameoed in the last season of Mr. Robot, like, I think he said like the show's catchphrase or something, like he was interrogating Elliot, like he is like, I am the creator, thus I will manipulate the. But Sterling was just like, I'm the guy next to the guy who says something in one of the episodes. I want to know more about that decision.

• 40:53Chris Ryan?

  I just feel like it's like, it has that Linklater feel of like everything in Tulsa is like alive. And there's 10 different movies and TV shows at once. And that's just a scene from a different one, you know? I really love that.

• 41:09Andy Greenwald?

  Also T O Horn, who played the dear lady in Reservation Dogs, she plays Samantha, which is who's Ray's, I'm sorry, Lee's ex.

• 41:20Andy Greenwald?

  She's great on the show.

• 41:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:21Andy Greenwald?

  She's great on the show. And again, it's a tribute, I think, to the vibe that Sterling creates, but also probably, I'd like to think whatever Ethan does on set, that like.

• 41:34Andy Greenwald?

  He's like, okay, it's another day, new dance partner. Let's go, you know, and you, every one of these scenes he does with people, whether it was Gene Triplehorn in that great episode a couple of weeks ago, or whether it was Dinklage last week, or whether it was her this week, or Graham Greene this week, like you never get the sense that the other actors.

• 41:54Speaker 06

  Or Sienna East is Geirdra, who's really fun, the bookstore employee.

• 41:59Andy Greenwald?

  You never get the sense that they, or Ryan Keer, Armstrong plays Frances's daughter. You never get the sense that they are just, for the purposes of the scene, they are satellites orbiting around the sun, the star of the show. Like, it's like, okay, here we go. It's another two-hander, another two-hander, another two-hander. What are they bringing to this? What is the dance? I'm just, it's exciting when there's a new episode to watch.

• 42:21Speaker 06

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• 44:27Chris Ryan?

  Let's hit Chair Company. I kinda wanna lay out for you here, uh, because I am the, on the receiving end of a lot of very intense texts about Tim Robinson from you, where you're just like-

• 44:40Andy Greenwald?

  From me, yeah.

• 44:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, where you're like, "This fucking rips. This is so, this is so genius, this is so funny." And I get it, and I do think he's funny. I will say, there is nothing funnier in the world to me right now than watching Tim Robinson and Connor O'Malley do anything together.

• 44:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. Have you watched the full 13 minute-

• 44:56Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 44:57Andy Greenwald?

  -cut-

• 44:57Chris Ryan?

  Multiple times.

• 44:58Andy Greenwald?

  -of them on the set of Friendship?

• 44:59Chris Ryan?

  In fact, it's starting to approach, it's not quite-

• 45:02Andy Greenwald?

  Say it.

• 45:03Chris Ryan?

  -feeling in the plums.

• 45:04Andy Greenwald?

  It's close.

• 45:05Chris Ryan?

  But it's getting there. Him being like-

• 45:07Andy Greenwald?

  When he's-

• 45:08Chris Ryan?

  I joke. "Give me a reason to call my lawyer."

• 45:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yo, when he says he got the hat at the Vietnam War, the Vietnam War store-

• 45:17Chris Ryan?

  Cause he's a fan, he's just a fan.

• 45:22Chris Ryan?

  Alright, so Chair Company, which I will describe for people, I mean, obviously, most people listening to this have probably watched some amount of I Think You Should Leave, or are familiar with Tim Robinson's comedy at this point. Yeah, he did Detroiters, he's done a couple of seasons of I Think You Should Leave on Netflix, and now is doing this show Chair Company on HBO. He also made a film called Friendship that came out earlier this year with Paul Rudd. I think Friendship is a very useful movie to watch in relationship to Chair Company.

• 45:48Andy Greenwald?

  It's just worth watching in general.

• 45:50Chris Ryan?

  There are some ideas, they also comes from a similar creative axis where it's, um, Andrew DeYoung, who directed, Friendship directed the first, at least, episode, or first two of Chair Company, I think first, definitely. And then Zack Kanan-

• 46:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, first two.

• 46:04Chris Ryan?

  Zack Kanan, who has frequently collaborated with Tim Robinson in the script writing part, uh, created this show with Tim Robinson. I will describe- This show is the Parallax View meets The Office.

• 46:17Andy Greenwald?

  Good job. Good job by you.

• 46:18Chris Ryan?

  It's a 70s conspiracy thriller about nothing about a guy who works in an office. But I have been kind of surprised that, yes, every time, every episode, I laugh really hard, like three times, usually just like a facial expression he makes. Or the way that they will tease out a joke for five extra seconds, like Jamie screaming in the intersection in her car in this show. But tell me what it is about Robinson that you think you're reacting to? Because I don't think of you as cringe comedy, bro.

• 46:53Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think of it as cringe comedy. So there's a couple of things, like one, I love this show. And full disclosure, I, very unlike me, I was so excited to watch the show. I watched a bunch of them. I slow horses is it? I watched a couple of them a couple of weeks ago before I left for London. So I'm, I'm certainly have seen the two episodes that have aired. I did not watch them this week. I love the show. I love his, I love Detroiters. I love, I think you should leave. I loved Friendship. I think that he is the patron saint of a certain type of 2020s American masculinity.

• 47:30Andy Greenwald?

  I think that there is a frustration and a desire for exceptionalism and specialness that just seethes from that swollen vein in his neck. And that everything he does, like, like Will Ferrell or Danny McBride in their peaks, and you could argue they're still in their peaks. I just find everything he does funny. It is, what I also find interesting is that every one of those people, every one of those two other guys that I mentioned, similarly have had a, a character that they play. And they have attempted over projects and time to stretch that character.

• 48:13Chris Ryan?

  The American asshole. Yes.

• 48:14Andy Greenwald?

  See, exactly. See how malleable that character is.

• 48:17Chris Ryan?

  And Tim's doing the Upper Peninsula version of this guy. Yeah.

• 48:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. And, and it's not mean spirited either. So when you say it's cringe, I mean, there's awkwardness, but like,

• 48:27Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 48:27Andy Greenwald?

  There's a weird sweetness sometimes to it as well. Friendship had some darker overtones, which were fun and welcome. But like Detroiters, the way he and Sam Richardson interact with each other and their business and the city is actually kind of sweet, even if it is also idiotic at times. But. I think that the way that he's stretching the character and the curiosity with which he's stretching the possibilities and the horizons for the character, I find just very fascinating and compelling on an artistic level because he's like, okay, it works in sketch comedy. Does it work in a movie? Yes and no. Does it work in a half hour conspiracy thriller? Which is not a question I would have asked, and I certainly wouldn't have expected the answer to be a definitive yes. Like, I loved this instantly and I could

• 49:10Andy Greenwald?

  feel it in my bones. Like, he's playing the same guy. But, and is it Kate Mara or is it Lake Bell playing his wife that's out of his league? Sure. Okay, I get it. It's just, you know, it's slightly different, but kind of the same. There is something, here's what I wanted to say about it. When I watched one battle after another, I was like, I bet PTA fucking loves Tim Robinson. Because there is a real commonality, I think, in the almost aggressive absurdity of their humor and of their feelings about the role anger plays in American society. And I think that they are related as a project, like both of what they're doing right now. And there are elements of one battle after another,

• 49:54Andy Greenwald?

  at least tonally, I'm not saying they're both masterpieces or whatever, but like, tonally, there's something that is similar to me. Like, Christmas Adventurers is, I think, you should leave.

• 50:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:05Andy Greenwald?

  Christmas Adventurers in the service of a Thomas Pynchon adaptation that's also about the rise of fascism and being a girl dad, maybe that's not, maybe Tim's not there yet. You know what I mean? But there is something, something that is similar. And I'm just really excited to see where it goes, because as you said, the baseline is, this is gonna be really fucking funny.

• 50:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the moment that the show really like, kind of left earth for me was when Ron Trossper, the character that Tim is playing, Tim Robinson's playing, has finally hunted down Mike Santini, the guy who he seemed to think was hired by Tecca Chairs to warn him off of going too far down the rabbit hole and like... You know, he confronts Mike Santini, who fakes a heart attack.

• 50:51Andy Greenwald?

  We didn't even say this. He's seeking justice because he had an embarrassing thing happen to him at work.

• 50:56Chris Ryan?

  Yes, I guess we should have set the show itself up. Yeah. So it's basically a guy who's working at a mall, shopping mall design firm. He seems to be some sort of project manager or something. He gets a big opportunity to oversee the opening of a new shopping mall, even though nobody goes to shopping malls anymore. He gives this big presentation and as he's going to sit down after giving his speech in front of Lou Diamond Phillips and and everyone else, sits down in this chair, the chair collapses, thus setting off a chain of events where he is pursuing the corporate ownership, the ultimate responsibility. He wants to find out who did this to him at the biggest moment of his life.

• 51:35Chris Ryan?

  So he starts like emailing, calling. One night, he is mysteriously attacked in the parking lot of his business by a not very intimidating Italian man named Mike Santini. He turns out to just be kind of a ne'er do well private investigator who has been hired by an unknown third party. But when they're having this confrontation, this guy, this older man, Mike Santini, throws boxes of trash at him. And Tim Robinson is like, these are my work clothes. And then starts screaming about how like, there's something going on that could hurt a lot of people and I'm the only one who knows about it. And it is kind of like, okay, well, this is, this is pretty much the 2020s, completely summed up.

• 52:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 52:21Chris Ryan?

  It is going nuts while someone throws garbage at you.

• 52:25Andy Greenwald?

  Well, you're just trying to get to your day job where they will maybe have cookies at break time. Yeah, that's what we're, that's where we're at. I also like perversely as a, you know, we are commentators on not just the shows, but on the larger industry, like I, I would, I would pay money. I would subscribe to a 19th streaming service if it could offer me in split screen, the pitch for this show and the pitch for, I don't know, like silo. Like the pitch for this show is Tim Robinson being like, I sit on a chair, it breaks. What the fuck happens next? And then Casey and everyone and Amy and Franny at HBO are like, here's a bag of money, like a fucking Scrooge McDuck comic.

• 53:08Andy Greenwald?

  Whereas with Silo, it's just like, okay, so there's this guy, but he lives underground. But Rebecca Ferguson, you know, she's like, she's working.

• 53:15Chris Ryan?

  Have you seen Silo?

• 53:16Andy Greenwald?

  Years, I saw, like, years ago, but I remember it was like, the most, all I remember is the most like, far-fetched aspect of it was that like David Oyewo and Rashida, Rashida Jones were like, deeply in love. Is that right? I found that very, very, but Rebecca Ferguson was just like, maintenance?

• 53:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:35Andy Greenwald?

  And then she came to the fore when it came time to find out why they were really in the silo.

• 53:42Andy Greenwald?

  You know what we should do? I think this would be, I don't know if this would be a releasable episode, but I do think I would enjoy it. Is that if we had one episode where we let, I don't know who among the Ringer family, extended family of artists, uh, keep up on this stuff, but like someone comes in and just talks at us and tells us about seasons two through five of Foundation. And then they cycle out and someone comes in and tells us about season two, three and four of Silo.

• 54:05Chris Ryan?

  Do we talk or is this just a recap pod that we're present for?

• 54:07Andy Greenwald?

  I think it would be compelling if we're just like, oh.

• 54:10Chris Ryan?

  We need you to, to, to.

• 54:12Speaker 08

  You guys, I've seen season three of Silo.

• 54:15Andy Greenwald?

  Fucking, Kaya, you've been here the whole time.

• 54:19Chris Ryan?

  I can't turn, this pod cannot be a Tim Robinson show where it's just you and I listening. Then we kind of obviate the need for us.

• 54:27Andy Greenwald?

  Kaya, what, um, what's up with the silo? No spoilers. Are they still in the silo?

• 54:33Speaker 08

  No, so you want me to tell you what's up with the silo, but not spoil it for you?

• 54:37Andy Greenwald?

  Off air, I a hundred percent do. I guess I just want you to, in a non-spoilery way, just vibe check on Silo season three. Like, what are, what are our hopes and dreams?

• 54:49Speaker 08

  I'll tell you this, there's not just one silo.

• 54:52Andy Greenwald?

  What the fuck?

• 54:54Chris Ryan?

  I knew that.

• 54:54Andy Greenwald?

  Did they rename the show Silos?

• 54:58Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 54:58Andy Greenwald?

  These ideas are free.

• 55:00Chris Ryan?

  Um, Greenwald, it's been great seeing you, man. Uh, let's get into my interview with Zach Baylin and Kate Sussman. They are the creators and writers of Black Rabbit. Uh, Black Rabbit premiered on Netflix a couple of weeks ago. Starts Jude Law, Jason Bateman as brothers involved in, uh, basically the.

• 55:19Chris Ryan?

  The explosion of their own lives as they try to run a restaurant in New York City. It features some great performances. I thought it was incredibly dark and compelling in that Ozark way and utterly watchable. Zach and Kate were really awesome. We talked a lot about the writing of the show, working with Jason Bateman and Jude Law on these characters and also just the restaurant scene in New York City and how that inspired the show and how it plays such an amazing role in the show itself. So let's get into my interview with Zach and Kate. Andy, I'll talk to you on Monday, buddy.

• 55:54Chris Ryan?

  Zach and Kate, thank you so much for joining me.

• 55:56Speaker 09

  Yeah, thanks for having us.

• 55:57Chris Ryan?

  This is kind of how I would like to be doing Netflix shows, which is like a couple of weeks after they come out, you know, and people get to like watch them a little bit. It's always frustrating when it's like Black Rabbit comes out and then the first piece on Vulture is explaining that crazy Black Rabbit ending. I'm like, guys, it's one hour. Like, I'm not even alive here. I want to talk to you first about the tone of the show because despite, I wrote down some of this, gun violence, robbery, dismemberment, drug abuse, sexual violence, financial skullduggery, and suicide. I find this show to be like one of the most fun shows I've watched this year. And how do you, guys, when you're writing this balance, like, for the lack of a better term, entertainment value, but just like this, like, almost compulsive watchability

• 56:41Chris Ryan?

  of the show with all the heavy material that's within it?

• 56:46Speaker 09

  We started first with like those two guys, you know, and that relationship of what Jake and Vince or Jason and Jude were gonna go through and what that arc was gonna be was like very cemented from the conception of the show, I think. And so I think that we wanted to try and see if we could make this sort of operatic family story, but then also, you know, we talked a lot about things like Uncut Gems or State of Grace or Before the Devil Knows You're Dead was a huge reference for the show and just like, could you? Tell a really emotional story like that, but then also just like keep your foot on the

• 57:26Speaker 09

  gas of the kind of like knives that are again thrown at the guys the whole time. And, and so in the writers' room, I know that was like a constant challenge that we were like talking to everyone was about is sort of just how, how can we maintain the balance of the like emotion and groundedness of that relationship while at the same time trying to just like get a sense of inescapable both propulsion and like trauma for these guys.

• 57:55Speaker 10

  And we weren't trying like just hearing all those things was like, God, this sounds terrible.

• 58:01Chris Ryan?

  It was a restaurant.

• 58:02Speaker 10

  It was love.

• 58:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 58:05Speaker 10

  It was tenderness.

• 58:06Chris Ryan?

  Parenthood.

• 58:07Speaker 10

  No, I think we didn't set out to like want to see or make anything really violent. And I think wanted something that felt very grounded, but also kind of imperative. Like what, what are real world stakes that could feel dangerous enough, but like in, you know, the realm of possibility. We talked so much about Michael Clayton, which, you know, in that movie, Michael Clayton owes $70,000 and like, that's a real number that you can like. So we, we kind of started with that premise, like, you know, how much does a restaurant make every night? And so what would be a reach for Jake to have to make? What, how much could, you know, Vince's character have lost in a bet? Like really sort of making, making sure it seemed believable, but also heightened just

• 58:49Speaker 10

  enough that, you know, kind of chaos ensues from what's, what they've done.

• 58:53Chris Ryan?

  It's got like the, you know, it's got basically the narrative rhythm of what addiction kind of feels like, where you're like, I'm always just about to get my head above water and then I get swamped again, like that kind of feeling, especially for the Vince character, where he's just like always like. Salvation or like getting out of it is right there and he can't help but like either his past comes back to get him or he does something that swamps him like that. It's like very, very perceptible. It's so that here the actual numbers and that that was something you guys were thinking about is really interesting.

• 59:29Speaker 09

  Well, we talked a lot about like when we were finding Jude's apartment in the show was a build, but it was it's a it's a replication of an actual apartment that we had in our location. This guy Paul Esconzi, who was a Successions location guy was amazing, who found in like Soho, Tribeca area. And then we were like, okay, what does this place actually cost? What? How could someone like Jake potentially afford it? You know, what? What would that rent mean for, you know, his earnings at the restaurant? We got really deep and tried to like, really be quite accurate about just the financial like challenges and hurdles of living in New York and trying to put on the kind of face that he is putting

• 1:00:11Speaker 09

  on. And and so I remember early on, we were like, I had written in that that Jude was going to drive this like, like a 86 beat up Targa or something. And we spent a lot of time. We're like, that car is actually like even a shitty one. You know, that's like a like, you're going to spend 60,000 bucks on that car. And we're just like, this guy can't afford that.

• 1:00:31Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 1:00:31Speaker 09

  And that Jaguar that he drives it like, it looks great, but that's like, that's a $6,000 car.

• 1:00:37Chris Ryan?

  Right, right. He stays fixed up or whatever. Yeah.

• 1:00:39Speaker 09

  Yeah. So it's like, I think we we wanted to sort of make sure that we felt like all that stuff was both plausible and that you had a sense of like, reaching for something that was unattainable, but that these guys could at least manifest the like, some of it, you know?

• 1:00:55Speaker 10

  And that idea, like you lived in New York. I wonder if you felt like this. We were, we like started out our career there. So we were always like, how much does that guy's apartment cost? And like, how does this person always have a new like outfit? And like, really being like, super interested in like, the face that people were showing? And like, what's the, you know, like, Anna, the bartender, like, what's her like apartment look like compared to Mel, the hostess, who's like, parents support her? And just like, kind of thinking about who are these different people in the city who? You know, like, where do they live? How do they present themselves? Because we had been totally obsessed, you know, with that idea.

• 1:01:28Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I remember my job, like, when I moved there, I was working at Kim's on St. Mark's.

• 1:01:34Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 1:01:35Chris Ryan?

  And we would get paid, I mean, sorry, Mr. Kim, if I'm revealing your financial secrets, I don't think so. But like, it was, uh, we would get paid minimum wage in a check, and then we would get paid cash under the table for the additional amount that we were owed.

• 1:01:48Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 1:01:48Chris Ryan?

  But like, on Fridays, you were like, I have some money in my pocket. You know, like, the idea of, and I'm sure that's the same thing for the restaurant business, where it's like, I'm cash-rich tonight.

• 1:01:57Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Chris Ryan?

  You know, and like, so that I can have a different kind of New York experience.

• 1:02:00Speaker 10

  Totally.

• 1:02:01Chris Ryan?

  For forty-eight hours. Now, that might not mean I can get a better apartment or get a better, you know, car or something like that. But I can go out, you know, and I can, I can have a good time tonight.

• 1:02:09Speaker 09

  Yeah. And I think what you were talking about, that like, sort of edge with addiction and with Vince, I think that he's, he's someone who is constantly like, you know, he, on the edge of winning, and it's either, he's always blaming other people for the mistakes that he makes or the situation that he's in. I mean, when he, in that first scene in Reno, where he runs over a guy, or he like, takes the guy's keys, and he's like, you know, this is your fault.

• 1:02:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:35Speaker 09

  And then, later, his father says that same thing. And, but, there's like, I think we talked a lot about with Jason, is, is this guy someone who is self-sabotaging all the time? And like, doesn't actually feel like he is entitled to any sort of success? And so, anytime he gets close, is he like, is he the, like, the atom bomb of himself? And, I don't know, I mean, I think a lot of people are sort of right on that edge of like.

• 1:03:00Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:03:01Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 1:03:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. In terms of, like, you mentioned the sort of having that uncut gems, devil knows your dead feel to it. How hard is that to pace? How hard is that to stretch out over the course of eight hours? And, and probably more, and then figure out, like, here are the beats that we have to have, like, a breath. Here's where we really want to ramp it up, and like, the last act of an episode, and going into the first act of another. And you have these flashback scenes that I think are really effective and really kind of deepen your relationship to the character, where sometimes flashbacks can be like, okay. But like, this is like, you're really seeing these pivotal, amazing moments in these guys' life together, and it. It was, those were really rich. So how do you guys go about constructing any given episode?

• 1:03:45Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I could grab one at random, like one of the Laura Linney block in the middle of where it was actually my favorite part of the season. I think just also because like that's where you're kind of like mid air with the characters and really like anything could happen. So just tell me a little bit about putting together an episode in terms of pace and tempo and kind of like what you're going to do to a viewer.

• 1:04:07Speaker 10

  Maybe I'll talk broad strokes and you can talk more specifically, but we always knew like, you know, Uncut Gems was this big like inspiration for us, but we're, you know, we knew you couldn't have eight hours of that experience because there'd just be too much to kind of withstand and kind of too much.

• 1:04:23Speaker 09

  You felt like you were like locked in that, in that vestibule for eight hours.

• 1:04:27Speaker 10

  You're turning that off after like, so we knew we kind of wanted to build up, you know, that idea of the robbery and, and that being like the first episode of the show and something that we're building up to. We knew that we wanted to climb up to that point and kind of earn the buy-in for the characters and establish this relationship. And then we kind of knew that we wanted the final two episodes to be just an all out like kind of chase movie. And we knew that those were going to be like the most intense and the like where the wheels have fully come off. So we started to think about like, you know, if that's like the, the third act or like the, the adventure or the like stomach churning part of the show.

• 1:05:06Speaker 10

  How are we going to construct the six episodes that lead up to that, that both hopefully tell the audience that we're like getting towards that, that it's going to start like the wheels are going to come off bit by bit by bit across every show. But then how do you still keep, you know, you gotta, when one episode ends, there has to be a reason to like stick around to the final episode. So we worked like really hard to, and the, and like you were saying, Laura, like with each of the directors had such a different take on it. But I think Laura's block is really interesting because like you said, that's where we like get to know the characters and like see them come into their ways a little bit. But had to like work hard to still make, you know, the stakes have to like keep growing and growing and growing. And I think we just kept like focused on.

• 1:05:48Speaker 10

  Building, earning, like, stress and interest enough up to six, knowing that after that it was gonna be kind of.

• 1:05:54Speaker 09

  Yeah. I mean, I think that we looked at it in a couple of different ways. I mean, we're, you know, like, that block you're talking about in particular, I think that is a block where if you've come into the first act of the show and you, and at least that Vince's character on the surface is the sort of chaos engine of it, but then in three and four, we begin to understand that Jake, you know, has made a lot of. It's just as underwater. Yeah, and, and he, and the difference between them is that, like, Vince wears his fuck-ups on his sleeve and he owns them and Jake is, is always putting this mask on. And so for, like, an emotional sort of character reveal, three and four were really kind of about understanding that part of Jake, having that, what's that like for Jake

• 1:06:38Speaker 09

  when that gets exposed? And so we knew that there was gonna be, like, that would be sort of the emotional turmoil of those, of those episodes. And, I mean, I think that honestly, it was something that we were trying to, the pace and all that stuff was things we were trying to figure out the whole time. Mm-hmm. And Jason had a huge hand in, in sort of, you know, how the tension would continue to be wrapping up, like, throughout the edit. Jason was, like, was very hands-on. And, but, I mean, things like those flashbacks were things that we had always talked about in the writers' room but weren't even scenes. And when we got to, when we were in production, we, we were constantly writing and evolving things. And, you know, we knew what the end was, we knew the form of it all, but, like, we worked really closely with Justin Kurzell,

• 1:07:22Speaker 09

  who directed the last two episodes and we had done the order with. And, and he's just this, like, incredibly collaborative, like, you know, I remember there's this one scene, sorry, this is going off, well off. No. But in episode seven, things have all sort of fallen apart and Jude, character Jake, like, has this really frantic phone call with Vince, you know, where, after the robbery. And, and we were shooting that, it was, like, late at night, we were underneath the Brooklyn Bridge under there, and Jude's just, like, pouring his heart out. I mean, that guy will just, like, he, like, gives everything.

• 1:07:56Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 1:07:57Speaker 09

  And he's, he's been doing it for, like, an hour, and then Justin goes up to him one take and he's like, "What, mate, why don't you, uh, after you're done this one, take your shoes off and just throw in the traffic?"

• 1:08:05Speaker 10

  And throw away.

• 1:08:06Speaker 09

  And Jude just looks at him and says, "All right, cool. Yeah, let's do it." And it was this amazing, like, it did end up in the show, but it, like, I think. The whole production sort of had this feeling of like, if someone has a good idea, let's just run with it and let's try and see if you can, you know, if it's additive. And so even those flashbacks, those are things that Kate and I wrote like pretty late in the production.

• 1:08:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:28Speaker 09

  And we came to like the, the idea that the band came from this Playboy magazine. And that was like, you know, that was something that we had sort of were kicking around and, and we're like, how can we get this in the, in the show, in the series? And we had gone to Erica Kay, who's our line producer, was like asking us, where's the name come from? And we sort of told her this story and we're like, oh, what if, do you think we could build the kid's bedroom from, you know, do you think we could have like Vince watching Robin Bird?

• 1:08:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:59Speaker 09

  Late at night? And it was just, it was a constantly sort of like additive process, which was really exciting, which you can't really, in a movie, you can't really get a chance to do.

• 1:09:08Chris Ryan?

  Well, I like the, the flashbacks also give the Vince character this different shade because that's a point in his life where he still has a little bit more confidence and a little bit more, maybe his like, it's starting to fall apart, but I, I was re-watching the scene where Jake buys him out. And that's a really good example of what I wanted, one of the things I wanted to ask you is like, what's on the page versus what happens once Bateman or Law get involved? Where the gesture he makes or like the, the line he has when the lawyer comes in with the papers and he's like, and how did I fucking know you were gonna be here? You know what I mean? Like, or I'm not surprised you're here.

• 1:09:48Chris Ryan?

  And I'm like, well, that's such a Jason Bateman line delivery, but also this is still a guy who thinks he's got control because he's just like, I founded this place. Like, he's still kind of holding on to these, these semblances of ideas about himself. So the flashbacks wind up being really, really effective in that way.

• 1:10:06Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 10

  Yeah, we were like so interested in the, we both have siblings and like that dynamic that you kind of establish a relationship with your sibling or like, you know, us and a lot of people we know that you can't break even like as you grow older and, and grow into like your different careers and, and life and stuff. So this, this like reverence that, that Jake has for Vince, he's probably had it since they're eight years old and he can't shake it, like whatever Vince does, like.

• 1:10:33Speaker 09

  Jake, he's cool.

• 1:10:34Speaker 10

  He's cool. And Jake, like even when other people are like, what are you still doing with this loser? This guy is bringing you down. He's an anchor. Jake just has so much, he holds him with so much reverence. So like in that scene, you can, like Jake's heart is breaking to do this to his brother. And his brother is kind of like, come on, man. Like this is my place. You couldn't throw me out. And then, um, and then, you know, you see that you, that he can. And like, I think in terms of like, both Jason and Jude brought like so much to their characters and took them like.

• 1:11:02Speaker 09

  They're so fast, both of them. And really like on the day and like.

• 1:11:06Speaker 10

  That we had written, Vince was like on the page at first. Vince was a little bit more like, um.

• 1:11:14Speaker 09

  Depressed.

• 1:11:14Speaker 10

  Not pathetic, but yeah, like, like low, like really depressed. And like, I remember there was like a few scenes that he cried, you know, that we had him like, you know, coming clean about stuff. And Jason was like, no.

• 1:11:25Speaker 09

  He's like, this guy doesn't cry.

• 1:11:26Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 1:11:26Speaker 09

  And, and, and so we saw, you know, the first day that we shot was the day of Vince's opening in Reno in the parking lot. And like Jason brought such a like, in, in.

• 1:11:41Speaker 10

  Indignant.

• 1:11:41Speaker 09

  Indignant like attitude to like this, that scene. And we're like, okay, this is, this is actually more interesting in a way that like this guy who is like, who.

• 1:11:49Chris Ryan?

  He's like, I can't believe I have to ask for a coke here or whatever. Like he's getting it like that.

• 1:11:54Speaker 10

  Or like that guy puts a gun to his head and you're immediately like, oh, this guy's had a gun to his head before and he's not scared.

• 1:11:58Chris Ryan?

  It's a Wednesday.

• 1:11:59Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 1:12:00Speaker 09

  And so, and then we, we really then we did a lot of rewriting as we saw kind of how particularly Jason was embodying him. And, and I think like that scene in particular, that that was written by Andrew, who was this amazing writer who was with us. And I know, I mean, I remember that line that he's like, I can't think of it exactly, but where he like basically is like, you know, was like, what happened to your finger?

• 1:12:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:24Speaker 09

  And like Andrew wrote that and, but then Jason could, would, just has this ability to sort of jump in and add a little something on top of it that makes it either incredibly disarming or incredibly insulting. I mean, in that scene, it's, I know it's not scripted when he like yells at Jude and he's like, hey, like that on the day in the room, that was like, that was frightening.

• 1:12:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:44Speaker 10

  Yeah. Everyone was going.

• 1:12:46Speaker 09

  And so I think that, that there was a lot of flexibility on set of like, we, we want this thing to feel natural. And I think there's a lot of times where. One is a writer, like you put something down and you're like, you get really beholden to or...

• 1:13:01Chris Ryan?

  Well, that's what I was gonna ask about.

• 1:13:02Speaker 09

  To like a, to a line or a phrasing. And this happened to me like early on in my career, like when we did, when I was working on King Richard.

• 1:13:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:11Speaker 09

  Like I had written that script and I was like, I, no line in this thing can change. And then I got on set.

• 1:13:16Chris Ryan?

  I'm William Goldman, step off.

• 1:13:17Speaker 09

  And then I got on set and I was like, you know, you know, I got really lucky and I was very, very good friends with Ray, the director.

• 1:13:24Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:13:24Speaker 09

  And so, and we were, and we were constantly rewriting on set and like, and, and Will is like quite a talented improv.

• 1:13:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:34Speaker 09

  And you're like, if you want the thing to feel like, like real life and not a movie, then I think you have to be available to, to, to see where it's going and to, and to allow like, an actor to have some flexibility, unless you're like, you know, I mean, I think there are amazing writers who probably can put it on the page. And, but I, I feel like that the actors who we've had the best experiences with, like John Bernthal, Will, Jude, who've worked with a couple of times, Jason, like, you know, they, they add a lot. And if you're, if you're available to be there with them and be like, okay, what, what, what, how can this be better? How can this be more naturalistic? Can you say it with less?

• 1:14:17Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:14:18Speaker 09

  Like.

• 1:14:18Speaker 10

  And also if you, when you realize pretty quickly that they're, you know, obviously all of your scenes have like an intention or like, you know, there's a point to every scene. And, and so as long as you, as soon as you start seeing people do it and they're changing stuff, but are adhering to like, you know, what's the point of the scene? Or what's like the change that's gonna happen in the scene? What's like the fuck up they're setting up now? As long as you're like, this person still gets that that's the intention of the scene, that that they're still gonna hit that, then we can like have fun with everything else as long as we, like this one point or this one idea is gonna get across. Let's, let's do it in any way that feels natural. And once, like, we started seeing Jude and Jason, obviously like, they're so smart about, you know, storytelling and, and that. You're like, okay, so you know what we're supposed to do here. So if... These lines don't totally match up with what we said. That's great.

• 1:15:02Chris Ryan?

  I think people generally, like when they hear about, even just the word might not be appropriate for this, but the idea of improv, like they think of like Will Ferrell movies and they think of like Judd Apatow or Adam McKay yelling like alt lines from behind the camera and it's just like, we're just like trying to find the funniest thing. But like what you're saying makes a lot of sense that this, this show feels so alive from one character down to the 14th character, which is another thing I want to ask about. But like, you can tell like there is still the sort of connective tissue between original intent, screenwriting, and maybe these people being like, these are nightlife guys. Like these guys are talking for a living and like making deals and trying to get out of trouble. So like, it's got to feel like kind of...

• 1:15:46Speaker 09

  As it goes forward, like Kate was saying, like a lot of things wanted to dismantle, you know, so that like by five and six, the, the camera begins to move in a different way than it was early on. And by the time you get to Justin's episodes in seven's eight, then it's like, it's handheld and we're on the street and there's very minimal lighting and...

• 1:16:07Speaker 10

  Cameras like behind the action.

• 1:16:08Speaker 09

  Yeah, and trying to catch up. I mean, Justin was like, you know, to the frustration of our, of our like operators sometimes would be like, you know...

• 1:16:15Speaker 10

  Point the camera over there.

• 1:16:16Speaker 09

  Yeah, he'd be like, "Start looking this way." And, and Ari would be like, "What's the blocking?" He's like, "You don't get to see the blocking," you know?

• 1:16:22Chris Ryan?

  Who is Ari?

• 1:16:23Speaker 09

  Ari, Ari was one of our, like amazing camera.

• 1:16:26Chris Ryan?

  God, that sucks.

• 1:16:29Speaker 09

  And I remember the first day with him, we were in the, like in a subway in New York, which is always just a dream. Like, we're gonna get to shoot in a, in a subway. And we were like, it was just like a simple thing of like Jason running in there. And yeah, it was so funny.

• 1:16:44Chris Ryan?

  Justin's like, "We're gonna go over to this."

• 1:16:45Speaker 10

  You look over there.

• 1:16:47Speaker 09

  Actually, the first time that he was shooting, we were on like...

• 1:16:50Chris Ryan?

  Is this a subway towards in, in, in the last time of the last phone call he makes in Subway?

• 1:16:55Speaker 09

  Yeah. And before that, we actually, we were like on Essex Street, which is where we shot where, um... Anna has her scene with Roxy on the bench and then we come back to that at the end of the show and like Justin's first thing, like these guys were like wheeling out this huge light and he he's like this kind of big imposing Australian guy and he's like, put that shit away. And immediately everyone's like, okay, this is gonna be a different, this is gonna be a different block.

• 1:17:21Chris Ryan?

  Does that allow you to be a little bit more run and gun when you're out in New York City? Like, what was the sort of challenges of, because you know, like, it's it's been a minute since there's been such an authentically New York show like this that also isn't, you know, I mean, SVU aside and the great Law and Order is aside, but like, it's just like, you're going into every nook and cranny and and shooting in these extraordinary places. I imagine it's helpful to actually not have a ton of stuff that you're bringing with you.

• 1:17:49Speaker 10

  We got like really lucky. I mean, we, there was never a world in which we didn't, this show wasn't gonna shoot in New York. It's like so much about the city and, you know, our experience there and and like the the rich tapestry in New York City. But we, I think we got lucky that our Black Rabbit was one of the earliest shows to come back up after the writer's strike and the SAG strike. So I think not only did we get like an incredible crew, because a lot of people had been, you know, didn't have, weren't working and and we kind of got our our pick of of department heads and everything. But I think the city like really opened itself, was like glad to have production happening again. I will say like to the credit of Eric, our line producer, and our locations manager,

• 1:18:31Speaker 10

  like, we heard no, like, zero times. Like, we want to shoot on the Brooklyn Bridge. Like, sure, 10th Street, best, sure. Like, all these places that were kind of like bucket like thing, places we had been and hung out. We're like, we want to shoot there. And we we like never really heard no, which was incredible. And then-

• 1:18:47Chris Ryan?

  Is that on the, when the, when in one of the Laura Linney episodes, there's the the zoom out and Bateman's on the phone. Is that against the, is that against like Peter Cooper, but it's on the East River or something? Like, he's in like a kind of walking-

• 1:18:59Speaker 10

  Oh, on the-

• 1:19:01Speaker 09

  That's episode five.

• 1:19:03Speaker 10

  Over the FDR.

• 1:19:04Speaker 09

  Yeah. So that's like, yeah, that's like on, I think it's on Sixth Street.

• 1:19:08Chris Ryan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:19:08Speaker 09

  Going across the FDR to like where those tennis courts.

• 1:19:10Chris Ryan?

  I was like, this is incredible.

• 1:19:11Speaker 10

  It was so funny. That was, we were supposed to get coverage of that shot and Ben Semenoff, that was his episode. And he, you know, he like shot that whole thing and he was like, well, let's not, we don't have to cover this. This is great. Looks amazing.

• 1:19:22Speaker 09

  But I mean, that was, I think- Sometimes like that's it seems very simple and it's one shot but like that that took a tremendous amount of infrastructure. But then there are things and things like getting to shoot at the at the pool room, you know, like those were enormous logistical like operations. But then some of the stuff like, you know, the at the end, there's a lot of driving things in New York, which is very challenging to do, especially on a TV.

• 1:19:50Chris Ryan?

  I can't even imagine.

• 1:19:51Speaker 09

  Like, you know, driving across the Brooklyn Bridge or or the Jake's sort of race out to Coney Island, which in some ways we just kind of times just put a camera in the back of a car.

• 1:20:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:04Speaker 09

  And had it with Jason and Jude in there and we got like one take and the car broke down. And and so in some ways, there was a very independent spirit of making this show. And then in other times, we like Netflix was honestly incredibly terrific and we just like, you know, we built that entire restaurant on a on a stage and it was like down it was so meticulous and, you know, I don't think the the resources that we were given to do some of that stuff were spent there and then we it allowed us to like, you know, a lot of the stuff at the end where Jason is in the diamond district, like we shot all that stuff in like a day.

• 1:20:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:43Speaker 09

  Which was moving incredibly quickly.

• 1:20:45Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:20:45Speaker 09

  For how complicated some of that stuff was.

• 1:20:47Chris Ryan?

  Okay, you mentioned the restaurant, so I want to ask, was there, I think, I think I remember reading, it was like 2022 when you guys were like, sold this or like we're like basically.

• 1:20:58Speaker 09

  It was right before the writer's strike.

• 1:20:59Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:20:59Speaker 09

  Whatever that was, yeah.

• 1:21:00Chris Ryan?

  And then can you think of like, this is probably too convenient, but was there like a night or a day after and you were like, you know, what would make an interesting story, if not a feature or a series is something about the place we were last night or something about this like, was there was there like a kind of inciting kernel?

• 1:21:19Speaker 09

  Yeah, there were, I would say there were two, I'll talk about one, you can talk about the other, but there was a restaurant in Williamsburg called The Dressler.

• 1:21:26Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:26Speaker 09

  Which was the first, I believe it was the first Michelin star restaurant in Williamsburg. And to to us like that, we had moved to Brooklyn at that point and like, and that restaurant was sort of like a pillar of that community in that it had sort of taken what was this artistic neighborhood and and I think in some ways like was part of the. Group that sort of said, this is like a serious place in a way. And, and then that restaurant had a really tragic fall. And the guy who created that restaurant like got embroiled in debt and ended up committing suicide.

• 1:22:06Speaker 10

  Okay.

• 1:22:06Speaker 09

  And so there was, there were a handful of articles that had been written in the aftermath of that. Like what happened was this, did this, in some ways, did this dream or did this neighborhood almost that they were a big part of creating like cannibalize itself. And so that, you know, was something that was in, we had been like wrestling with that for a long time. And like, there's something really interesting here and about the places that we lived and about the kind of ambition that I think New York like can instill in people. And, and then also like can sort of, you know, topple them. And, and that was a big part of it.

• 1:22:44Speaker 10

  And then I, I lived across the street from the Spotted Pig in the West Village and was there when it opened. And it, that place had like a huge, you know, like figured pretty large and like my like kind of idea of what New York was about. This like cool downtown like hang and it was not like banker bros. It was like already like downtown types. And so we were, we, we spent a lot of time there. We didn't have a ton of money, but we, you know, when we could, we'd get drinks there and have meals and sometimes get lucky enough to get up to the third floor. I was gonna say.

• 1:23:18Speaker 10

  But, and a handful of other places like that, Beatrix Inn and, you know, like Odeon or like, you know, then I remember places like Minetta Tavern, places that we went. And we were just really like, kind of captivated by how sexy and alluring and cool, like what we imagined was going on there. But then when, you know, the Spotted Pig had like this huge scandal that was going on that we, that like, we became aware of, like, um, through the news, like, you know, sexual harassment that was happening there. And there was like this major like fall from grace for the guy that owned it. And a number of restaurants had like, you know, found out that was going on.

• 1:23:54Speaker 10

  And like, it was really interesting to see how like voraciously that was covered by the media and how people were like so interested in like the, that like downfall and, and like.

• 1:24:06Speaker 09

  It was like schadenfreude around there.

• 1:24:08Speaker 10

  It was, and, and I think people were like. You know, seemed more shocked than maybe you might have been had you spent time there.

• 1:24:16Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:24:16Speaker 10

  Because you could have maybe pieced together that this was like, you know, that something was up there. But just really liked the idea that like what the show that happens every night there. That's so alluring and intoxicating. It is like often like so different than what is actually happening at that place.

• 1:24:33Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:24:33Speaker 10

  And so I thought that was a like really rich place to just as like a background or as like a place to to set a a big story of of like somewhere where what the presentation is and what the show is is not what what's actually happening. And like reflects a lot about the brothers.

• 1:24:47Chris Ryan?

  One of my favorite recurring images in the series is Jake in his tank top getting like, you know, getting up on like he has like a cot in the office or whatever. And it's like, this is essentially his life, but it's like you get to see the wizard behind, you know, behind everything. And he's like, yeah, like every night I put on this show, but then at the end of the night, like I'm basically like.

• 1:25:12Speaker 10

  It's not glamorous.

• 1:25:13Chris Ryan?

  Pretty lonely guy, you know, who's, I think somebody I know somebody in a restaurant business who once told me it's like taking out a mortgage every single night. And, you know, you think about like, oh, you take a mortgage out on a house. Like, that's one thing to do five times in your life. Like, imagine every night you're like, this is either going to be great or I'm going to be in jail.

• 1:25:33Speaker 09

  That's like someone said when we took on like about show running that it's like, it's like being beaten to death by your dreams.

• 1:25:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:40Speaker 09

  And I think that's sort of like how like what we've spoke to a lot of restaurateurs that that's sort of same idea of just like, you know.

• 1:25:47Chris Ryan?

  It's kind of like why everybody goes to New York, though.

• 1:25:49Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 1:25:50Chris Ryan?

  Right? It's like to have that feeling. I I love the way the restaurant that Black Rabbit is conceived of because like Spotted Pig.

• 1:26:02Chris Ryan?

  Both the allure and also like the frustration of the city is like, there's always that other room, you know, and there is always like the thing that you can't do and it's so fun to be like, I can't believe I'm just like hanging out and Jay-Z just walked by like this is weird like, but then you're like, but I'm not up there, you know what I mean? And I don't even know if it really used to bother me because I was in my twenties and early thirties, but it was definitely something you're always aware of in New York is like, you know, the people who cut the line, you know?

• 1:26:30Speaker 09

  Yeah, there's always like a rope that you can't get through.

• 1:26:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:34Speaker 09

  And, and I mean, I think for like those guys, they like, you know, wanted to create the place so that they could be inside of it. And that's just like, I think is a way which a lot of New Yorkers like try to circumnavigate that is like, well, if I can't get in your party, I'm going to create my own.

• 1:26:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:49Speaker 09

  You know, and, and I think like, you know, there's a scene in episode two where like Jason's character, like there's a flashback where he walks him through the like bowels of what that, of the restaurant before.

• 1:27:02Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:27:02Speaker 09

  You know, and he's like talking a lot about like Mars Bar.

• 1:27:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:06Speaker 09

  Which was a place that we spent like a lot of time.

• 1:27:08Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:27:08Speaker 09

  And then.

• 1:27:09Chris Ryan?

  He's got a library t-shirt on at some point. Was that for library for the bar?

• 1:27:12Speaker 09

  Yeah. And then upstairs in the, in the third floor of the restaurant, I can't remember if we really ever see it, but if you ever went to Mars Bar, you know, in the bathroom at Mars Bar, it was like this, it's disgusting, but it was like all graffiti and then, so they like replicated that wall up in the third floor. And I think that idea that you could like try and like, I mean, the, the false idea that you can try and replicate something from your youth in that way and that it's gonna, it's gonna turn out well.

• 1:27:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:41Speaker 09

  I think is a lot of like what the, you know, what the show is about.

• 1:27:44Chris Ryan?

  I think I read in an interview you guys did with, I believe it was a creative screenwriting or something, it was a screenwriting site, talking about. Taking nightlife and shooting it during the day and showing what it's like during the day. And some of my favorite moments are those guys walking around. Like, I think there's one scene that looked like it was in the meatpacking district, but maybe it was down by Essex or something like that. But like, these like daytime shots of what it's like to get ready for a life that happens entirely at night. And I was wondering if you could talk to me a little bit about whether that was entirely creative, or is there also like a production solve there? Because it's like, I don't have to do as many night shoots if we're having a lot of stuff happening during the day and that these guys are all running around the city, trying to get their life together.

• 1:28:28Speaker 10

  I think part of like the stress we wanted to show for Jake is it is like, it's kind of like a 24 hour thing, right? You have your job is at night, but then just wanting to set up like how much work it is to run a restaurant. And he's like, you know, sleeping there a lot of the time.

• 1:28:43Chris Ryan?

  Roxy's at the market, yeah.

• 1:28:45Speaker 10

  Yeah. So I think we were sort of interested. And then like, not to mention like throwing a kid in the mix. It's like kind of a, um, something that you like can't do forever. And so we were interested in that. Like, what is like, how do you, how do you grow up and still have that job when you're 20 and 30? Maybe that's okay. And you can just kind of like grind like that and it's okay. But we liked, you know, for someone like Jake and someone like Vince, 50, like, like the wear and tear of that really, really starts to get you. So I think we wanted to, we wanted to sort of separate those different like, times of the day and how they're operating. And then also just like, you know, at night, when you see Jake, he's got his jacket on, his shirt on, and he looks great. And during the day, it's like, this guy like does not look great.

• 1:29:30Chris Ryan?

  He's barely keeping it together, yeah.

• 1:29:31Speaker 10

  Yeah, like, he's crumbling.

• 1:29:33Speaker 09

  And I mean, I'm sure there were some production considerations, but a lot of times, like, you know, when you're, when you're writing, like night stuff just seems so exciting.

• 1:29:40Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:29:41Speaker 09

  And especially like this show, the world of the show is so much about night. And then, and then when you, then you have to ask the whole crew to do it. And you have to like, get David out there.

• 1:29:52Speaker 10

  No, then it's 3 a.m. and you're like, can I switch the other night scenes to daytime scenes?

• 1:29:57Chris Ryan?

  Couldn't we run across the bridge during the day?

• 1:30:00Speaker 09

  But I mean, I think also like I worked in production for a really long time and it was like, you know, in the art department and P A and I remember just like there's something about being in New York where you're like either you're working the graveyard shift and you're ending your day and like the sun's coming up and like the next shift is coming in and like people are opening the shutters on their stores and there's just like this, you know, it's just a constant handover of like whose city it is throughout the course of like any day. And I think that like that was really interesting to sort of to try and show a little bit of.

• 1:30:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I always loved the subtle shift changes of the city like even even those like moments like where there's like brief traffic lulls like even over the course of the day where you're like, ah, yes, the like the 11 a.m. to 1:30 p.m. break between like this whole thing being covered in Ubers and cabs or whatever, you know. Obviously, the show ends with a degree of finality. I wanted to ask about next stuff to the extent that you're able to talk about it. I mean, I personally would love to see, you know, Jake's continuing adventures as an up and coming bartender, but what else is kind of what are you guys thinking about right now, even if it's not like an explicit project?

• 1:31:18Speaker 09

  This TV experience has been really exciting. You know, I think that most my my career so far has been in film and I've been really lucky in that like a lot of the directors I've worked with, I've like gotten to stay on through production. But, you know, it's it's different in TV like to really get to have our hands in in that like all those choices. So I think we have a couple TV things that that I'm not sure.

• 1:31:45Chris Ryan?

  Too early to talk about.

• 1:31:46Speaker 09

  Too early to talk about, but but I think things that are in in the same sort of kind of world and or.

• 1:31:55Speaker 09

  Yeah, as Black Rabbit a little bit. And I mean, I think, sorry, I'm monopolizing this. But this show was really personal and it was like, you know, not to get too far into it. Like, I have a brother and it's like, we poured a lot of our life into this thing.

• 1:32:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:08Speaker 09

  And it was a different sort of creative experience than I've had on some of the other things that are a lot of, I've done a lot of stuff that is like true story based, but not sort of my story. And so I think that, one, it was incredibly exciting to get to sort of pour things out like that. It's also made me want to do sort of more of that with Kate. And so I think we're looking at projects a little differently now in that way.

• 1:32:38Chris Ryan?

  Do you feel like the, not even the change, but like the, this feels like a good bucket for the kind of stuff you want to write, like this, whether it's limited or not, but like this kind of around seven or eight hours around this kind of feel, being able to write for like adults to watch, you know?

• 1:32:55Speaker 10

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think we like talk about this a lot as like an exercise is like, you know, what are, what are the things that are, you know, we know when we get sent a lot of stuff and we're constantly reading articles and we're like, what is the through line of the things that when we read or when we see, we're like, oh, that's the kind of thing, you know, that I want to get involved in. I mean, I think like, you know, true stories to some extent, but really like identifying like, like real emotions and real drama, but being able to portray it in this kind of like theatrical way. So like, you know, a family drama that feels like a blockbuster, like that the emotions

• 1:33:36Speaker 10

  and the stakes are so high and so, not heightened, but so dramatic and so life or death that they get to be portrayed, you know, in this like kind of big way and working with great filmmakers and great actors to portray real identifiable people making identifiable choices.

• 1:33:58Chris Ryan?

  On like the worst days of their life.

• 1:33:59Speaker 10

  Yeah, yeah. And just like, you know, and I like watching, you know, heightened stuff too and find that interesting. But I think where we thrive and where we're most like invested in characters is seeing things that you can, you know, identify with emotions and identify with people's choices that they make.

• 1:34:17Speaker 09

  Or the bad choices they make. And I would just add to that. I think it's like, We really, what we think was very exciting about making this was like how dense you could make the story. And I think that that can be challenging for the audience because you're actually asking like this is, we did not want to make like a second screen like TV show where it's like you could fold your laundry while you're watching this. We wanted it to be like, if you, if you're willing to pay attention, like there's, like there are going to be a lot of reveals and there's going to be a lot of sort of, the denseness of storytelling was really exciting. And I think that that's something we want to continue doing. But I also think that's like challenging. I don't think there are that many places that want to, are willing to like invest

• 1:35:01Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:35:01Speaker 09

  in, in that. And we had tremendous resources on this and I don't know that we'll get that again in, in this kind of way. But I think wanting to make that kind of like labyrinthine story is

• 1:35:13Chris Ryan?

  It's just really cool. I mean, I don't want to keep you guys, but it's just, it is one of those shows where the actual physical setting and the environment the show is placed in perfectly reflects like the plotting and also like the characters' interiorities. That was like always like, the thing that I loved the most about this show is that these people felt like New Yorkers, but it felt like something that was like, a lot of the things that happen in the show can only happen in New York. Like there's only a subway system like that in this city that works this way. Or there's like, the traffic is like this. Or like all, all these things that kind of like really impact how these people behave. So I just really, really enjoyed the show a lot. Loved it.

• 1:35:51Speaker 09

  Thank you.

• 1:35:52Chris Ryan?

  Kate Zach, thanks so much for coming by the watch.

• 1:35:54Speaker 09

  Thank you so much. This was a real pleasure, man. We're huge fans.

• 1:35:56Chris Ryan?

  Thanks so much.

• 1:36:37Speaker 11

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