245: Knowing What Leads to Victory. Critical Importance of The Fighting Spirit Combat Lessons Vol. 3 with Dave Berke

0:00:00 - Opening 0:02:32 - Combat Lessons Vol. 3. 2:03:32 - How to stay on THE PATH. 2:22:36 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 245 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:07Jocko Willink?

  Also joining tonight is Dave Berke. Good evening, Dave.

• 0:12Dave Berke?

  Good evening.

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  Did you make it to the status of honorary co-host yet?

• 0:23Jocko Willink?

  Yes, no?

• 0:23Dave Berke?

  Well, I was thinking.

• 0:25Jocko Willink?

  We're getting there.

• 0:25Dave Berke?

  People want to know why they call him a good deal, Dave. This is the fact that we've been talking about that. This is why.

• 0:32Jocko Willink?

  Check. Back again tonight with some more combat lessons from the, from the document called Combat Lessons. Document written in the throes of World War II and what they were doing was interviewing frontline leaders and frontline troops. In fact, the subtitle is Rank and File in Combat. What they're doing and how they're doing it. We've covered two of these so far. And this is the third one.

• 1:01Jocko Willink?

  And you know, sometimes I think to myself, well, you know, I mean, we kind of get the idea, right? And I'll start thumbing. So I started thumbing through this one. I said, you know, do we really need to cover another one of these? So I started thumbing through it and you just start reading these things. And I can't put it down and I'm still learning. And so I figure if I'm learning, we can all learn. Why, why try and hold it back from the people? No reason. We can get right into it. So here it is. Combat Lessons, Volume Three. And we've done two of these so far, actually. I forget what number of podcasts they are, but we've covered two of these volumes. This is the third volume.

• 1:44Jocko Willink?

  And this is what the, all the volumes start off with this quote, "The paramount combat lesson learned from every operation is the vital importance of leadership." Which is really an interesting thing that we say every single time we talk to people. "Our equipment, our supply and above all, men and above all, our men are splendid. Aggressive and determined leadership is the priceless factor which inspires a command and upon which all success in battle depends. It is responsible for success or failure." And that is July 3rd, 1944.

• 2:27Jocko Willink?

  Starts off just jumping right into leadership, leadership and command, need for leadership. Comments received from all active theaters continue to emphasize the need for competent and aggressive leaders. This is especially true as regards junior officers and non-commissioned officers. Lieutenant General Courtney H. Hodges, who observed operations in North Africa and Italy stated.

• 2:52Jocko Willink?

  And before I even get to that.

• 2:55Jocko Willink?

  Why is it, why is it just so awesome? That they're just pointing out over and over and over again in each one of these volumes, that leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield. And yet. We work with companies that have no leadership training for their people.

• 3:19Jocko Willink?

  Until Echelon Front shows up and then I guess they do, but it's bizarre that. It's bizarre that it is so hard, what makes it, what, what Dave, what makes it so hard to see? That leadership is the most important thing. What do you think makes it so hard to see?

• 3:38Jocko Willink?

  I stumped good deal.

• 3:39Dave Berke?

  Yeah, well, no, there's a couple of things. First is I don't think people. Realize how impactful leadership is. They almost convince themselves that, hey, our, what we can do is. You know, if we bring in people with these skills or our software suite and they, they get so wrapped up in all these other components, they lose sight of the fact that. This thing, this intangible thing that you can't really track with the, with the spreadsheet. They lose sight of how important it is. And I think the other part that we're seeing a lot now is. People lose sight of how often you have to keep addressing leadership. And so they think it's sometimes like, hey, no, I understand what a good leadership is like and, and they think they are applying it, but they don't realize that, hey, I've got to keep. Addressing this over and over and over again.

• 4:23Dave Berke?

  And they lose sight of not just how important this, but also how important this is, how hard it is to sustain it. And when we come work with companies. The more we work with them and the longer I work with them, the more they want to keep doing and they realize, man, I had, I had no idea how long this journey was going to be. But the ones that figured it out, dude, they. They they elevate so quickly. They get so good so fast when they make it a priority.

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The first thing that you said, you you you are de facto not detached. When you're inside of a company, you're firefighting day to day. You're trying to figure out what the next quarter is going to be and you're trying to figure out what's going on with the sales team. So you're just in it. And so you you start to lose track of the fact that this is this is a all about leadership.

• 5:11Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  So that happens. And that's why when we come in with a company, we can immediately see because we are detached. That is part of it. The other the other cool thing analogy here is when you start doing jujitsu, you you know, you get through that point where you realize how much you don't know and you realize, oh, wow, I got a lot to learn. And a leader, you know, you can read the book and be like, you can read Extreme Ownership, be like, oh, yeah, I got this. But that's like the first two, three moves that you learned in jujitsu. And you think you're good to go, but you don't realize you need to drill, you need to practice, you need to see, there's so much more to learn. So those are the things I think that, yeah, can can

• 5:56Jocko Willink?

  inhibit people from recognizing what we say all the time, what every freaking book that I read says.

• 6:07Jocko Willink?

  Leadership is the most important thing. So getting into what General Hodges had to say, "Few division commanders are satisfied with the qualities of a major percentage of their platoon commanders." Ouch. "Too many of them are lacking in aggressive leadership, self reliance and ability to meet emergencies." "Inefficiency of officers in this group in carrying out orders strictly and in making accurate reports as to locations, dispositions and information gained was especially stressed by one division commander."

• 6:41Jocko Willink?

  So that's a horrible outlook. And if you feel that way, what are you supposed to do about it? That's why you need to implement training for your subordinate leaders.

• 6:53Jocko Willink?

  And that's exactly what this next recommendation is. Course for NCOs, that's non-commissioned officers. Lack of leadership on the part of non-commissioned officers was also frequently reported. In one division in reserve, a special course was designed to develop more aggressive leadership in non-commissioned officers and to make squad, to make the squad a real fighting team. Train to use the firepower of its weapons to the maximum. This leadership course consisted principally in what is termed a battle drill.

• 7:23Jocko Willink?

  While most comments on leadership deal mainly with leadership during actual contact with the enemy, the true leader, recognizing the responsibilities of his position, must exercise leadership at all times. He must be unsparing in his efforts to take care of his units by providing for the comfort of his personnel and at the same time ensuring proper maintenance and safeguarding of their equipment.

• 7:54Jocko Willink?

  Exercise leadership at all times. And isn't it interesting, leadership strategy and tactics, what's the most important thing? You've got to take care of your people. What does this, "unsparing in your efforts"? Even as you read, even as I read that, the first time I read it, I read "unsparing in his efforts" and you think it's going to say, "to provide the discipline mandatory for combat operations," but no.

• 8:19Jocko Willink?

  "Unsparing in his efforts to take care of his units by providing the comfort." And there's the dichotomy. "At the same time ensuring proper maintenance and safeguarding their equipment." And what it should say there is, "their training," right? It's talking about safeguarding their maintenance and equipment, that's cool, but you've got to make sure that they're well-trained and ready to rock and roll when the time comes.

• 8:41Jocko Willink?

  Irresponsibility. In this connection, comment of Colonel Maurice E. Barker, 5th Army, Italy, is interesting. "Younger officers seem to lack a sense of responsibility for the men under their care and for the equipment entrusted to them. They seem to feel that there is an inexhaustible supply of equipment and that all they have to do is throw stuff away when they no longer lead it, need it." Of course, the non-commissioned officer follow their, the non-commissioned officers follow their lead. This lack of responsibility is tremendously important and something drastic must be done about it. Hey, Colonel Maurice E. Barker, you know who should do something about it? You should. Because if your junior officers are lacking the sense of responsibility,

• 9:26Jocko Willink?

  guess what? Whose fault is that? Yes, yours. That's one part. The other thing that I underlined here is, of course, the non-commissioned officers follow their lead. And that's a subconscious thing that happens. You get somebody in charge, and you get somebody that's, in whatever they're doing, where they're underperforming, or they're treating things as if they don't matter, or they're throwing equipment away, whatever they're doing, the junior people are going to follow them. That's the way it works. Along this same line, Lieutenant Colonel E. W. Gibson, G2, 43rd Division, New Georgia

• 10:06Jocko Willink?

  commented, "The chief fault of the inexperienced officer is that he does not realize his responsibilities with respect to looking out for his men, finding them food and water, checking their bivouac, and seeing to their clothing. If he will evidence his concern for their welfare, he can forget about morale, they'll fight." If he will evidence his concern for their welfare, he can forget about morale, they'll

• 10:44Jocko Willink?

  fight. Who would have thought that if you actually take care of your people, they'll fight? Did it say, "Hey, if you bark orders at your people, they'll fight"? No, it didn't say that. Did it say, "Hey, if you impose hardcore discipline on them, they'll fight"? No, it didn't say that either. What you have to do is just show evidence of your concern for their welfare, and then they'll fight.

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  Widespread effect. Junior officers and non-commissioned officers seldom realize the widespread effect on major operations of their failure to do their particular jobs properly. Being an excellent fighter is not enough unless the junior leader performs his other command functions in an efficient manner, the resulting failure of his personnel or equipment can imperil the whole action of a major unit. Once again, if my people don't recognize that, whose fault is it? And this one, this one in particular, isn't casting the blame, but we should say, make sure you tell your junior officers and non-commissioned officers what the widespread effect of their failure would be.

• 12:05Jocko Willink?

  The following comment is from the Division Commander, 36 Division, Italy. At Salerno, carelessness was noted in the landing of communications equipment. Most communications failures are believed to be the result of careless handling of the equipment by personnel. Without communications, even the best trained troops are very often, cannot be employed where desired. So, yeah, didn't waterproof your radio correctly and everything falls apart. Threw your radio into the bottom of the landing craft and it got banged around and the tubes broke. Total failure. Why? Because no one emphasized the fact that, hey, your job as the radio man is the most important job of anyone out there. And if we can't make communications, it doesn't matter what else happens, if we can't make

• 12:47Jocko Willink?

  communications, we're going to fall apart. Next section, practice and more practice. Commanding General, 3rd Infantry Division, Italy. The development of leadership is largely a matter of practice. Practice in leading. Make these lieutenants actually lead. Exercise their voice and issue commands. Require high standards of physical condition. Always got to throw that in there. Make these lieutenants actually lead.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  Having James Webb on when he went through the basic school. And then got done with the basic school and then had 12 days of leave. And then he landed in Vietnam and they drove him out through the AO and then pointed at a ridge line. And said, there's your platoon up there. Okay, who am I replacing? Well, you're not replacing anyone. The lieutenant that was there is no longer there because he was dead or wounded. So there's a sergeant that's been running the platoon. Go take over, walk up the hill, he takes over that night. He's calling for fire, total mayhem. And he was, I was like, were you ready for that? And he said, yes.

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  That's squared away.

• 14:13Jocko Willink?

  Were you ready for that action coming out of OCS or coming out of, uh, coming out of the basic school?

• 14:18Dave Berke?

  Dude, I'm listening to you talk about this and the first thing I'm thinking is. It sounds like somebody read this and took some action because I was the beneficiary of by the time I got in the Marine Corps. The, the NCOs, the, the, the middle level enlisted Marines that on paper were subordinate to me, but really were way more experienced than me. They didn't let me fail. And so I can tell you right now, second lieutenant Burke, when he had his first group of Marines was an idiot. But I was lucky because rather than my subordinate enlisted Marines kind of following whatever stupidity I might be, they were putting, hey, sir, actually, hey, sir, a better way to do it might be this or something, but I got really good leadership up the chain.

• 15:02Dave Berke?

  So that lesson, that lesson somehow has taken hold from this 1944 to now because Marines are taught from the get go. The smartest thing you can do as a young lieutenant is listen to your staff NCOs, listen to your gunnies, your staff sergeants. Those Marines who on paperwork for you, you're going to learn a lot from them. And thank God my junior enlisted didn't listen to me at all. They were, they, they understood that they needed to lead up the chain and.

• 15:28Dave Berke?

  For me to look at you and say, "Yeah, I'll be ready," no way. I was ready. When I walked out of TBS and I walked into whatever that first thing that I did, had I not had that leadership up the chain, I would have struggled much more than I did. Much more than I did.

• 15:43Jocko Willink?

  The other thing I take away from this is, is you need to practice, practice in leading, right? And, and there was, um, there's, there's situations in business, right? Because we work mostly with businesses now. What you have is an opportunity to train leaders all the time, day in, day out. There's always situations where decisions need to get made, where there's low-level decisions that need to get made, where there's medium-level decisions that need to get made, where there's high-level decisions where maybe you still need to make the decision, but at least you can allow them to attempt to make that decision and maybe get corrected or maybe get, maybe get a pat on the back for, "Hey, good way to think through that issue."

• 16:26Jocko Willink?

  So, thi- this does happen. And if you think about the fact that every opportunity you get, you say, "You know what? Hey, junior personnel, why don't you run this project? Why don't you, why don't you organize that logistical movement that needs to take place? Why don't you run that meeting? Every time you get that opportunity, take it. Because that is what you were doing. You were letting your subordinate leaders practice leading, and they need it. And you let them do it in an environment where, "Look, I'm gonna let them run an in-house meeting with just our company. So that way, if they screw it up, no one sees it. It's okay. We can debrief it later. I'm not gonna let them go out and brief the client on what we're gonna do and have them drop the ball on that. But after I see them perform well, three or four or five in-house meetings,

• 17:10Jocko Willink?

  and they've got control and they're confident and they're doing a good job, cool. Hey, why don't you brief this part of this thing to the client?" "Okay, yeah." And then we go from there. So, as a leader, every opportunity that you get, give your subordinates, all the way down to the front lines, the opportunity to practice leading by actually leading. Let them lead some stuff.

• 17:33Dave Berke?

  Yeah, and most decisions that we make in business and anywhere like most decisions aren't catastrophic. Most of the decisions, even if we get them wrong, they aren't going to destroy our company or have these catastrophic effects. And that's not to say it's a free pass. You still need to have these guardrails in place. You don't want your people to be able to drive the truck off the road. But the truth of the matter is, is that giving your people opportunities to lead isn't that hard, because even the things that you push down to their level and help them, when they get it wrong, which they will, most of those will not undermine your company. Now, be smart. Just like you said, I'm not just going to cut loose my random guy, go take this high, our number one client, our biggest moneymaker, just go figure it out, call me when you're done. But the decisions that we make, there

• 18:15Dave Berke?

  are so many opportunities to let other people even get along a little bit and get involved, have a small part of it and watch that grow, and just have confidence that the decisions, most of the decisions we make, aren't going to lead to catastrophe.

• 18:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, I did that piece on EF Online, I don't know, it was maybe a month or two ago. It was that. It was like, listen, very few decisions that you make are final decisions. In fact, almost none of them. And furthermore, just about every interaction you have is up for further negotiation. So if Dave and I are arguing about something, and Dave wants to do A, and I want to do B, we can walk away, and it's not like that is what's going to happen in most cases. Most of the time, there's going to be further negotiation. And if I maybe subordinate my ego and say, all right, Dave, let's go with your plan, I can go back and reinsert some of the things that I thought might be a little bit smoother if we did it the way I was thinking. And once we start to see that, it's good. So

• 19:13Jocko Willink?

  we move forward with a little bit more negotiation. And you're right, those are the opportunities where you let people lead. You know what prevents us from doing that? Is when I wanna be in charge. Man, it feels good to be the man, right? It feels good to be the man.

• 19:31Dave Berke?

  What's crazy about that is that you as when you're my boss, you're the guy in charge. When you take something that you're responsible for and you give it to me, you don't look weak. You actually look even stronger than you are like that fear of that, hey, I wanna be in charge. I look like I'm in charge. When you give people on your team that work for you the chance to lead and if you actually put yourself in a position to follow them, you look so much stronger than when you refuse to ever do that.

• 20:00Jocko Willink?

  You want to know something that I haven't quite figured out yet? I know it exists. I know it happens. I know it's a thing, but

• 20:12Jocko Willink?

  it has to do with detachment. It has to do with perspective. It has to do with ego. It's these three things. So you have, you have perspective, you have detachment and you have ego. So here's what happens. Dave, let's say I do something, let's just the scenario that you just gave, right?

• 20:33Jocko Willink?

  If I'm the boss and you work for me and I walk in and say, hey, Dave, you know what? We got this project.

• 20:39Jocko Willink?

  Why don't you go ahead and take, take ownership of this thing and run with it? Now,

• 20:44Jocko Willink?

  when we look at that, we know, we know that from the outside that that, that increases your respect for me, right? But how often do we see someone that goes, Dave, here's what we're doing? And here's how we're doing it because in, you know, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, well, Dave doesn't want to think that I don't know what I'm doing. Dave needs to know that I have the plan and he needs to know that actually I'm the boss. So even though when you, when you're not in it, you know that it's a bad move. But you do it. Or sorry, when you're not in it, yeah, when you're not in it, you know what the right thing or the wrong thing to do is? We just make that mistake all the time. I see it. Um, I, I play this game with clients. Like who would you hire? Who would you fire?

• 21:30Jocko Willink?

  When, when, if Echo is in charge of us and Echo walks in and you and I were in charge of a project, or we were working together on a project and Echo says, hey, you guys missed the deadline. And I go, well, it's because Dave didn't finish his part of the project because he is late. And then he, you know, Dave walks in the office and Echo says, what happened? And Dave says, well, you know what? I actually need to perform a couple of things. I could have done a better job here. I should have supported Jaco a little bit more so that we could have completed the project. Okay. Okay. Which guy are you going to give the next project to? You're going to give it to the guy that took ownership all day long. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows that. And here's the thing that I haven't quite figured out. Everybody knows that. And then when they're in it, they say, oh, it's

• 22:10Jocko Willink?

  Dave's fault. It's just the way, it's so horrible. It's like a lesson that you try and teach to people over and over and over again. The lesson is detach, take your ego out of it and understand it from the boss's perspective or from the subordinate's perspective. See it from the other person's perspective and you'll see it's so obvious that you're making a bad call. It's so obvious that you're making a bad call, but when you're in it, you do it. So detach, take your ego out of the picture and see the other person's perspective. Which by the way, when you tell someone a story, or you show someone example, that's

• 22:53Jocko Willink?

  exactly what's happening. They're detached, their ego's out of it because it's not them and they, they see the better perspective because they're not in it. There's a little, there's a little triangle of justice. A little triangle of, of how to proceed and assess what you're doing. It's, it's detachment, it's perspective and it's ego. If you can remember those three little things, that little triangle of decision-making, it's going to, it's going to put you in the right place way more often than if you lose either one, any of those three. You put your ego in there, it doesn't matter. It overrules

• 23:37Jocko Willink?

  them. You don't see the perspective of now, you don't know what's happening. You're not detached, you're in it, you lose.

• 23:44Jocko Willink?

  Alright. Every infantry lieutenant should be thoroughly trained in firing all the infantry weapons. He cannot know too much about them. He may have to fire, direct fire of several weapons and he never knows when. Good, good. Next thing, theory is not enough. A thorough and practical knowledge of his job is the basis for efficient leadership. This knowledge must be gained in a practical way by exercising leadership under all conditions. Too much of our leadership training has been theoretical in nature. There has been too much dependence on listening to lectures. Opportunity must be given to the junior officer to put the theoretical knowledge to practice by actually leading.

• 24:29Jocko Willink?

  Criticisms of errors made must be so couched that they do not destroy the initiative and spirit of the individual. Just when you think like you know, you, yeah, well, I really come up with this thing about how to debrief people and how to do it in a nice way so that they actually receive it. Hey, this is 19, what did I say, 44, 43? These guys are already figured all this out. Theoretical. This is what's nice about role-playing. This is what's nice about the FTX program. And this is what's nice about living in a business where you can actually put people in leadership positions where they can practice the theory that we're talking about. Because someone can, you can explain to someone how to do a jump shot basketball. You can explain that to them for two weeks.

• 25:13Jocko Willink?

  They'll have a concept in their mind, but they gotta go practice, they gotta go get on the foul line. Leadership on the beach. Fifth Amphibious Corps Tarawa. Squad and platoon leaders must expect that the mixing of units and an apparent state of confusion are normal in an operation of this nature. When troops have gained the beach and coordinated battalion and company attacks are broken up by the enemy pillbox defenses, leaders, whether lieutenants, corporals, or privates must take the initiative and push on with the men in the vicinity, whether of their own units or not. This assault was very successful because men moved on in spite of heavy losses.

• 26:00Jocko Willink?

  So I was talking about something with Darryl Cooper on the Unraveling Podcast.

• 26:10Jocko Willink?

  We have something called an error box when you're doing a dive underwater. And the error box is when you're diving underwater, you're being impacted by the currents and the tide and your own physical productivity as you dive. So if I put you on a blindfold and put you underwater in a pool, right? And said dive in a straight line and you were blindfolded, you would not dive in a straight line. You'd be a little bit off. Then if I gave you a compass, you could maintain a little bit better, but you'd still be off a little bit. It wouldn't be perfect. And then you put tide and current and now you're going to be off. I assume it's very similar to flying a plane. Like a plane may drift a little bit to the left, right? Totally.

• 26:55Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so it's the same thing. Yep. So what you have to do when you're diving is you dive so that you can, you want to, what you're looking for is a reset, a reset point where you know exactly where you are. So example, if you're going to dive in a bay or in a harbor, you would aim, the first thing you would do is aim at a big quay wall. That's 500 yards long. You're not going to miss that. Even if you had to dive 500 yards to get to that quay wall, it's a massive target. But when you get to that target, you might've drifted 20 or 30 yards to the left, or 20 or 30 yards to the right, or even 40 or 50 or 60 yards to the left or right, depending on the tide, depending on the current. So when you actually hit that quay wall, you have no idea where you are.

• 27:38Jocko Willink?

  What you've done is you've landed inside the error box. So then what you do is you take a right hand turn when you hit that quay wall. Once you take that right hand turn, you go to the end of the quay wall till you get to the corner. Now guess what? You know exactly where you are and then your next, you can swim your next leg, but you've tightened up that error box. So.

• 28:02Jocko Willink?

  What we need to do when we're planning is we need to figure out if we can reset that error box at any point, how can we do it? And if we can't do it, then we need to pay attention to that. So what we were talking about actually was Syria and you go into Syria and you think, hey, we're going to do this little thing in Syria and it will have this impact and we'll be good to go. And what you're saying is I'm going to hit with one, I'm going to hit right where I'm aiming for. Well, what are the chances of that? They're not really good. So what do you do? Oh, you, you need to figure it out. You need to figure out if, if it's the error boxes, hey, we might go 10 to 10 to the left, 10 to the right. Now we know. And by the way, if we don't get a reset there, our next leg is going to have an even bigger error box.

• 28:45Jocko Willink?

  So when you look at something in a strategic way like Syria, what your assumption has to be, you have to, you have to go through that whole thing as if your error box never got reset. And you missed every single time. And by the end of it, then you have to look at the total cost of what it would take to solve that ultimate situation. And that's what you have to be willing to commit. And we don't do that. What we say is, well, we'll go in and do this and it'll have this impact. And then from that perfect spot that we know, we'll do something else and it will, will be perfect again.

• 29:25Jocko Willink?

  And so the same thing happens in business. What people unfortunately have a tendency to do is they plan with a positive attitude. And we don't want to plan with a positive attitude. We don't want to say, well, you know, Dave, if we make drinks, we're going to, we're going to, if we put, if we put, put drinks in a can, our assumption is they'll all, every can's going to be perfect. There'll be no error. Well, there's going to be error. And then, once they get to the stores, while they're getting shipped to the stores, nothing's going to happen to any of them. There's going to be no damaged goods. And then, once they're in the store, none of them are going to get stolen. And then, once they're bought at the store, none of them are going to get returned, right?

• 30:09Jocko Willink?

  So, if you have that attitude, it's a mistake. So, you have to plan with a negative attitude, at least to be able to cover whatever contingencies you have at the end of the day, which is, you know what? People will buy it, right? And that's the last thing you say is, "Once the cans are in the store, people are definitely going to buy it because I like the way this tastes." Well, actually, that's not necessarily true. Your taste buds are different than everyone else's in the world. So, you can't assume that, "Oh, this is just going to fly off the shelf." No.

• 30:43Jocko Willink?

  What are you willing to invest if your error is calculated and exponentially increased every phase of your operation? Think about that to keep yourself out of trouble.

• 31:00Jocko Willink?

  Orientation. This is ridiculous. Ridiculously awesome. "The need for explanation. The American soldier always performs better if he knows the whys and wherefore's of the problem confronting him." So, wherefore's, this is a word we're going to bring back into usage. Because what wherefore's means, it's for the cause or reason, or for which reason you're doing something. That's what wherefore means. So, you need to know the whys and the wherefore's. You need to know the reason that you're doing something.

• 31:40Jocko Willink?

  "His willing and intelligent cooperation can be gained if commanders will take the time and effort to explain the situation, the mission, the plan devised to accomplishment, the effect success will have on the general situation. In short, everything concerning the operation that the time and available information will permit."

• 32:00Jocko Willink?

  Wow.

• 32:00Dave Berke?

  It's crazy. This is why you don't, you don't want me as a co-host. All I want to do is sit here and just listen to you read this thing. I don't want to say anything because I'm listening to that and it's like, God, that is so good.

• 32:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's so good and yet, how often do we run into a company and the front lines and you go to talk to them and they don't understand why they're doing something?

• 32:21Dave Berke?

  It's, it's, it's so straightforward. I was thinking earlier, you asked that question right at the beginning. Sometimes we, when we start working with companies, one of the reasons why they reach out to us is even in these, they'll have these initial calls. They just reach out, they want to have just a call about what does Echelon Front do? And one of the things they'll say is like, listen, we don't really know how to do leadership training. We don't really know what to do. So that's, that's why they, they reach out to us.

• 32:50Dave Berke?

  That's why the book, that's why Extreme Ownership is so good. And that's why listening to this stuff is so good because it, this stuff isn't complicated. It's not complex and we create these things in our mind that it's so difficult and it's so nuanced. Leadership is so simple. Now, the application is hard.

• 33:08Jocko Willink?

  Simple, not easy.

• 33:09Dave Berke?

  It is hard, totally. But the reason the book is so good and the reason I will, why I listen to this, like, how much more straightforward does that be? Explain to your people why they're doing what they're doing and they'll do better. And then we see those missteps at every single level. And, and our job is to find out, hey, why aren't you explaining it to your people? Sometimes it's like you said, hey, their ego gets in the way they want, they don't want to look weak. And when we pull them back and give them that detachment, their perspective, we go, hey, do you think as a leader? If you just spend a little bit of time telling your people why they're doing what they're doing, will that make you look worse or better as a leader? They get the answer right every single time. But it's because we're coming in from the outside, helping them see it in a way that they wouldn't see it before. But none of the answers are complex.

• 33:51Dave Berke?

  And as I'm sitting here like, I don't want to co-host this, I just want to listen to this book be read out loud. Because there's that simplicity to it, but he's talking about the World War II battlefield. In my brain, it's like that fits everywhere. That's every company we've ever worked with. It's every problem I've ever had. It's all the same thing.

• 34:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and for anyone that's worried about, well, what if you don't have time? Yeah, there's gonna be times where you don't have time. And guess what? If you've done this time and time again, and now you're making a call, people go, got it. He's gonna fill me in later, but he's telling me this for a reason, and I'm gonna move forward.

• 34:21Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 34:23Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, such explanations will do much to forestall rumors, anxiety, and mass hysteria. All factors which contribute to incidence of war neurosis cases, which is, you know, people shell shock, or, or, I guess, I guess it's not PTSD if it's during the conflict, right?

• 34:45Jocko Willink?

  But guys breaking down. If people know why they're doing what they're doing, they will have much less of a chance of breaking down. And we actually talked about this, you know, Leif talked about the fact that one thing that we could have done better is explain the bigger picture of what was happening. And the reason we saw, the reason this became so obvious is because the guys in Task Unit Bruiser that were involved in the planning, and that were involved in picking targets, that were involved to figure out where we're gonna position overwatches, that were going to battalion level briefs. And these were all different guys throughout the chain of command. Whether it was the point man, whether it was the lead sniper, whether it was the platoon commander, the platoon chief.

• 35:27Jocko Willink?

  But they all understood the why and the wherefore. The guys that we were saying, hey, get your gear on and going on another mission. Those were the guys that had, that, that had a rougher time of it psychologically. So that's on us, that's on me. And, and, you know, as Leif explains in the book. When we got back and we put together the brief that I was briefing to the naval special warfare community at large about what we had done and Leif for the first time put together, wow, we went and helped the 11 AD win back the city. Even he didn't hadn't really assembled that in his head.

• 36:08Jocko Willink?

  So I'm sitting there and he said that. He's like, man, we really had a big impact. And I'm like ashamed. Because if he didn't really see that, how in God's name could one of his frontline guys see it? Now, look, part of this is because that trust that Leif did have and Seth, same thing like, hey, we're gonna go get after it. You know what those guys say? Roger, point me in the direction of bad guys and we will go and get after it. But not everyone's feeling that way, especially two months, three months, four months, five months into a deployment. Whose fault is that? Hundred percent on me. Hundred percent on me. So there you go. There it's plain as day.

• 36:51Jocko Willink?

  Explain to your people the whys and wherefore's.

• 36:56Dave Berke?

  It also makes them, it also makes them more resilient when things go wrong. So when, you know, we've,

• 37:05Dave Berke?

  you talk about losing somebody, you talk about just the devastating effect of losing someone on your team. Those are the type of events that you can fully understand why people want to just tap out. They just don't want to keep going through this. And we were going to memorials. I think we had a stretch there beginning. It was 60 KIA in 30 days, something really bad. The more connected you are, the more you understand those things, the easier it is for you to look at that. It's no less, it's still soul crushing, but you can still power through that if you understand. But if you don't understand it, you are disconnected, those type of critical events, those catastrophic events. Dudes will tap out all over the place and so it also allows you to endure the hardest

• 37:48Dave Berke?

  things are going to happen and the more connected you are, the more you can understand why you need to keep moving forward when those things happen.

• 37:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, a hundred percent and on top of that, where I, what I initially thought you were going to say was, by the way, this is the foundation of decentralized command. Because what, what they're talking about, they're not talking about decentral, they're just talking about willing and intelligent cooperation, which I guess is, you know, you could interpret that as decentralized command, but if you want somebody to be able to make decisions and lead out on the battlefield, they need to know the whys and wherefores of what's happening. This is the foundation of decentralized command. On top of that, what you said is absolutely true. And by the way, it doesn't only apply to combat, it applies to a business where, guess what? We got to lay off 28 people and no one feels good about that.

• 38:37Jocko Willink?

  And if they don't understand that it's how we're going to keep the company afloat and how we're going to move forward and, and this is exactly what the numbers look like and this is why we need to make this decision. If it's just, hey, I'm a business, you know, we're a business and we got to get rid of some people right now. It's like, no. Why? Next, method of dissemination. If possible, this orientation should be conducted by the leaders in immediate contact with the soldier. By the individual, he instinctively looks to for guidance during the stress and strain of combat. It should reach the private soldier through his squad leader, the squad leader by means of the section or platoon leader, the platoon leader from the company commander and so

• 39:21Jocko Willink?

  on. However, each higher echelon of command must be certain that the information is carefully and accurately disseminated by those next lower in the chain of command. This method of orientation also tends to enhance the prestige and influence of each echelon of leaders with those junior to them.

• 39:45Jocko Willink?

  So you want to utilize the chain of command to put this information out that elevates them. Now, there's a dichotomy to this and outed the EF Battlefield that we did out at Gettysburg. We had some clients out there talking about leadership principles and one of the leadership principles that I talked about was the horse's mouth because there are certain things.

• 40:11Jocko Willink?

  Well, in Task Unit Bruiser, there are certain things that I had to tell the team. There was no, there was, I didn't want there to be any of the, of the misinterpretation of any kind. I am going to tell, look, there's been a change in the ROE. There's been a change in our overall mission set. That's not getting interpreted through the chain of command and I'm going to hope that the, that the fire team leader conveys the same message. Nope, it's going to come from me. You know, so out there at EF Battlefield, you know, there was a CEO that was saying, "Hey, I feel like the message isn't always getting to the front lines and when it comes to important things, that can be a problem." I'm like, "Yes, absolutely. If it's something

• 40:54Jocko Willink?

  that is super important, there's been a legal change or a regulatory change in what's happening in the way we do business." I would be having a video teleconference and saying, "Hey, hey, everyone. Good to talk to you. I know, I know, I haven't talked to you in a few weeks, but here's what's going on. We got this major change. I wanted you all to hear it from me. I already briefed your leaders on it, but I wanted to make sure you didn't have any questions." So when it is a significant change, sometimes it's got to come from the horse's mouth. By the way, if you get to do that in an optimum way, what you do is you pre-brief your leaders, you give them the opportunity to brief their troops and then you say, "Hey, everyone, we get together just to reemphasize what you heard." Boom. A little bit of both.

• 41:40Jocko Willink?

  Next one, tell the story Colonel Earl Maxwell surgeon. New Georgia, a soldier needs to know what is going on. What is expected of him? What he may expect to encounter? He must have a definite objective or goal. Without these, he's an automaton with no personal interest in the efforts of his unit and is entirely unprepared when the unexpected or unexplainable happens. Without the proper orientation, he is more prone to absorb wild rumors, loose talk, misinformation, all resulting in constant mental stress and strain evidenced by apprehension, fear, anxiety, incoherence, and confusion. There you go.

• 42:24Jocko Willink?

  There you go. You, you don't, look, we worry about, hey, people aren't going to do what I want them to do because I didn't tell them, but what about the fact that now they're scared? Now they don't know what's happening? Now there's increased stress because they think they might get fired tomorrow, they think they're laying off half the fort, all those things. Put those things to rest.

• 42:51Jocko Willink?

  Next section, the after the fight conference. Every effort must be made to emphasize the important part each individual plays in the successful combat of his unit. A method used by one infantry regiment to accomplish this and at the same time provide information which would furnish background orientation is described in the following comment. They eat it up. This little section is called Major Kermit Hanson, 34th Infantry Division, Italy. While I was S2 of an infantry regiment, that's the intelligence guy, I found that it aided the efficiency of the regiment to have material assembled as the fight was going on. When a battalion was pulled out for arrest, all the men and officers were assembled in a group.

• 43:36Jocko Willink?

  First, I would use the collected material to give them the whole picture from the viewpoint of the army, corps, and division. And then I would get down to more detail on just what the battalion had done, what German units they had fought, and how many casualties they had caused the enemy. Such a conference keeps the men abreast of the situation, increases their morale, and keeps up their fighting spirit. The men eat it up. During this after the fight conference, I would emphasize how much of our information regarding the enemy was obtained from prisoner of war interrogation and pressing upon them how disastrous talking could be if they were captured.

• 44:18Jocko Willink?

  So this is taking a debrief, a post operational debrief, and taking it to the next level, sliding into a little psychological warfare on the troops.

• 44:27Dave Berke?

  If you're down at the bottom of the org chart, you're a frontline guy, and not just the military, you don't have to be a private or a rifleman, it's the same thing in business. You've got your frontline sales folks that are out there. If you as a leader, and look, if you're the CEO or your key leader, you've got the big picture. If your folks on your team at the very front can picture in their minds how that one little action they take goes all the way up, and he's described, "The viewpoint of the army." Like, "We're invading Europe." This is a big viewpoint. And he's trying to get that connection all the way down to that one little action you take. When he says to eat it up, the first thing that popped in my mind is, is they feel like

• 45:10Dave Berke?

  they have ownership, what they do matters. And if you think what you do matters, and you can actually understand how what you do matters, you as a CEO, you can kind of, you can leave, you don't need to be here anymore, you can pack it up and let your people go do their thing. And a lot of times we're like, "I don't have time to explain." You have to make the time to explain it, because if your people make that connection, it makes your life so much easier because they feel like they own this. That is such a powerful thing.

• 45:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you invest $1 in effort in explaining to people what's happening, and it pays dividends tenfold.

• 45:50Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Jocko Willink?

  There's a section here called Battlefield Gallantry, which by its very title must be read.

• 46:02Jocko Willink?

  Here's the subtitle, "He Didn't Know When He Was Beaten."

• 46:08Jocko Willink?

  Seventh Army, Sicily. During one of the more fluid situations in the Sicilian fighting. And I love that because you just know how completely crazy it was. But this is even one of the more fluid situations. "The wire line running from a battalion command post to the rear suddenly went out. Sergeant Joseph Gorleski, with three men, started back to check and repair the break. After they had traveled about one half mile, they were ambushed by a patrol of thirty Germans." So that's four, four against thirty, "who had managed to infiltrate our position. Sergeant Gorleski and two men were wounded while the third man was killed." So they're down to three.

• 46:52Jocko Willink?

  "The German patrol leader called in perfect English, 'Give up, you crazy Americans.'" "Although severely wounded and outnumbered ten to one, Sergeant Gorleski ordered his men to open rapid fire. After emptying his rifle, the sergeant rushed the enemy with hand grenades. The German patrol, surprised by the unexpected stubborn resistance, was defeated and driven off with the loss of a number of its men."

• 47:27Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 47:30Jocko Willink?

  Battlefield gallantry.

• 47:33Jocko Willink?

  Aggressive action.

• 47:37Jocko Willink?

  Cover and move.

• 47:40Jocko Willink?

  Getting after it.

• 47:43Jocko Willink?

  Sergeant Gorleski, just, just getting some. Next little section. "Protected by valor, the Germans have a nasty habit at times of opening fire at extreme ranges and making you advance under it. While this long-range fire is not particularly dangerous, it is very disconcerting. The platoon of which Private Shelby R. Hord was a member, had been advancing under this long-range fire until, despite several casualties, they had secured a position within three hundred yards of the gun which had been harassing them. From here on, there was no cover." This did not deter Private Hoard, who, suddenly springing to his feet,

• 48:28Jocko Willink?

  raced some 250 yards until he was within hand grenade throwing range. With four grenades, he silenced the gun and, rushing in, killed four of the remaining enemy and wounded three others with his carbine. He then turned the machine gun on other enemy elements in the vicinity. The success of his apparently suicidal rush demonstrates the fact that valor can sometimes provide protective armor. The enemy simply did not realize that any man would try such a thing and were not ready to put their fire on him. By the way, he's got a wing too, because he was 300 yards away, he closed 250 yards,

• 49:08Jocko Willink?

  and then he made grenade shots at 50 yards. Credit. General Douglas MacArthur. It should be constantly emphasized that there must be no thought of surrender as long as it is possible to do damage to the enemy. The men at Baton and Corregidor fulfilled this condition. However, in some cases, we have not done so. The Japanese soldiers always do. Unless all our individuals also do it, we will suffer serious setbacks before Japan is conquered. And the word "individuals" is italicized?

• 49:53Jocko Willink?

  And obviously, it's italicized for a reason. It's like, hey, at an individual level, you cannot surrender. If you can still do damage to the enemy, you cannot surrender. Next thing. Reorganization after the attack. Don't waste time. I mean, you could just say, "Don't waste time." Lieutenant Colonel Murphy. Infantry, Italy. When an objective is captured, immediately push reconnaissance elements of the supporting weapons unit forward behind the riflemen. Get rifle groups out for security as soon as the position is captured. Have the weapons platoons immediately take position to beat off a counterattack.

• 50:37Jocko Willink?

  Displace promptly at least one-half of the heavy weapons company forward to the captured objective. Get your artillery observer up front and hurry. We were taught all these things, and they are still perfectly sound.

• 50:53Jocko Willink?

  So what are you saying? And my point for this is you get that advantageous moment and you're the gravitational pull will be to take a breath to relax. Don't do that.

• 51:09Jocko Willink?

  Continues on here. Delay brings trouble. Where an outfit gets into trouble is it is usually because they haven't pushed these points hard enough. When they waste time just a little instead of getting set and moving stuff forward at once.

• 51:24Jocko Willink?

  You probably will have only a little time to dig in before the counter attack hits. But if you set with if you get set without delay, you will be all right. Whether you plan to keep going or hold what you've captured.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  In football, there's a strategy called the no huddle, no huddle offense. That's literally exactly what that is. Where, you know, with football, run a play, you know, they blow the whistle.

• 51:47Jocko Willink?

  Take a little time.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Everybody, yeah, the offense goes back to the huddle, formulates their next play. They come to the line, same thing, defensive huddle, all this stuff, right? Then they come to the line, they make the call. Boom, they run another play. You go no huddle offense. Right when the, you know, the guy gets tackled or whatever.

• 52:05Jocko Willink?

  Get back.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Boom, right on the line. Quarterback calls the play from the line in code, real fast, too.

• 52:12Jocko Willink?

  Usually, isn't that more fun?

• 52:14Speaker 01

  No, freaking tiring, super tiring. So you gotta, you gotta kinda, you gotta be ready for it. You gotta train for it for sure. But what it does is the defense are used to that rhythm, you know, that sprint, rest, huddle, get set, you know, all that stuff. You, if you run a no huddle offense and they're not ready for it, you get one, two plays ahead of them, but you'll just march down the field if you can take it.

• 52:37Jocko Willink?

  So why doesn't that just happen all the time?

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Because it's tiring.

• 52:39Jocko Willink?

  I know, but why doesn't someone train up a squad where they're like, okay, this is what we're doing?

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Oh, well, so when I played in high school, the, you know, Kauai is a small island. So the Waymayo was the other team we were playing and they were, I forget if we beat them last time or, or it was close. I don't know. I forget what happened the last time, but this, we were gonna play them again. And the word on the street was they were just gonna beat us like bad. They're gonna beat us bad. And I always was thinking like, why? Why would they even say that? You know, like, even if they beat us, we're like competitive. So doesn't, it wasn't making sense. It seemed like they had something brewing.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Sure enough, they come out with the no huddle, unexpected. I was like, and they just marched down the field.

• 53:23Jocko Willink?

  How many times did they do it?

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Until, I don't remember, but until they scored and they started and it was all like quarterback keep. You know what that means? It's like instead of like giving it to the running back or throwing it, the quarterback gets the ball from the center and just runs it.

• 53:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  But these are all formulated plays where he just, where he's running on the outside, he's running the left side, right side, middle, like, and they're just coming. And I remember I was on.

• 53:45Jocko Willink?

  That guy was kind of a beast, huh?

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, Aaron Chan was his name.

• 53:48Jocko Willink?

  Did he make it? Did he make it to the NFL or anything?

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Oh, no, not that I know of, but he made it. The offense made it to the in zone. I'll tell you that. And I remember just how like, yeah, I remember thinking, man, hold out. I remember thinking, Brad, you guys go huddle. Like, I can't like get my, get my act together here to tackle nobody because you're just so on your toes the whole time.

• 54:09Jocko Willink?

  Here's the other thing. Okay. So, so there's that. And I still, you haven't really answered my question, which is if you're a coach where you just say, hey, we're actually going to condition ourselves in a different way, in a non-traditional way. And we're going to be ready just to, we're never going to huddle.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. You, the thing is, that's a huge undertaking. The thing is, we do. That's a common conditioning method. Is like no huddle offense for like, I don't know, 10 minutes, 20 minutes or whatever. Like that's part of football conditioning practice and stuff. Because when you go no huddle, you better buckle up. There's no substitutions.

• 54:43Jocko Willink?

  I wonder if you would just get guys that were different, like they'd all of a sudden they'd be smaller and skinnier and have more, have less power. And then you'd end up with a team that even though they could run the no huddle offense on defense, they would just get, they would get run through methodically.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wait, what do you mean?

• 55:02Jocko Willink?

  Meaning if everyone else on the other team is just jacking steel and doing cleans. We're 315 and they're going up against a bunch of guys that are weighing in at 170 because they're doing this no huddle offense all the time. You see what I'm saying?

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I could see it.

• 55:18Jocko Willink?

  You'd end up with different physiques.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Yes, for sure. And some teams, they'll, they'll kind of have that more in their strategy, you know? And you know how sometimes they pass the ball more or they run the ball more or some, you know, some no huddle, that's like.

• 55:33Jocko Willink?

  Some of them do quarterback keeps a lot.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  As opposed to quarterback sneak, which is different.

• 55:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Anyway, no, well, I would say the explanation for that is it can be risky. Cause if you're going no huddle, no huddle, no huddle, and then the defense is like, oh, we're ready for the no huddle. Then it's like, man, you get shut down and it's like, all right, it's different. Yeah, now you're left.

• 55:56Jocko Willink?

  The other thing I sometimes wonder about football is, you know, you see like a trick play on YouTube.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:02Jocko Willink?

  How come everything's just not a trick play, you know what I mean?

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Cause they're risky, just like jujitsu. Like you do those trick moves in jujitsu, you get like a group of people who figured out that trick, bruh, they're gonna shut up your, they're not gonna. It's not gonna work, we'll say that. It becomes not a trick play now. It's no longer a trick play when people know, so, yeah, and there, there are teams who, and that's actually kinda how the no huddle is too. It's kinda, it's, I wouldn't call it in the realm of trick plays, but it's kinda one of those things that's, it's unorthodox. So the unorthodoxness of it is part of the advantage, you know? So it's like, there's another play called the reverse, right? It's like a, we'll call it a common trick play.

• 56:41Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  I know that's a.

• 56:42Jocko Willink?

  Go to the other side of the field, right?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  No, it's a.

• 56:45Jocko Willink?

  Damn, I'm showing my ignorance here.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, but it's okay. You're good at a lot of things.

• 56:51Jocko Willink?

  Football ain't one of them.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Or a reverse is like, let's say, okay, so you get 11 guys essentially, right? You got the quarterback behind the center and they say, sit down, hut, whatever, right? If it's a running play, I'm gonna get, if it's, you can run it up the middle, right? That's usually for short yardage situations, we'll need three yards for this first down or touchdown, whatever, power through, exactly right.

• 57:11Jocko Willink?

  Jump, I might even jump three yards.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe, that's more of a one yard, half yard situation, but whatever, right? Then there's like an outside run, which is you can either give it to the running back and he'll run on the outside. But anyway, whatever side you're running in, right side, left side, whatever, there's no like. There's no like, oh, we always run to the right side. We always run, you know, there tends not to be that much of that going on. But when you run, when a play is going to the right side, we'll say, you can see it. All 11 guys start, look, if I'm on the front line.

• 57:42Jocko Willink?

  They go back to the other side now, right?

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Yes, but this is, this is how they do it, though.

• 57:47Jocko Willink?

  So I was right.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  I guess. That's an ambiguous statement. Go to the other side. So I don't know.

• 57:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so what's about to happen?

• 57:54Speaker 01

  So they either, I mean, there's plenty ways to do it, but they basically show that this play is running to the right.

• 58:01Jocko Willink?

  And then they?

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Say the running back is running to the right with the ball. If I'm on the O-line, on the front, the front line guys, you're gonna step right because you gotta get in front of the defense this way because they're running behind me. See what I'm saying? So when you look at the offense as a defender, you see the whole offense as a group, they flow to a certain side. You know that's where they're going.

• 58:19Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Pass play, they're just gonna sort of stay in place because the quarterback is dropping back and you gotta pass the receivers go, right? So you can see all this stuff on the defense. So boom, the whole offense is flowing this one side. Your natural tendency is to roll that side.

• 58:32Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Fast, hard.

• 58:34Jocko Willink?

  And then what happens?

• 58:35Speaker 01

  The one receiver or maybe the tight end or something like this, he goes, he steps once, the only guy, one step back and goes all the way around the quarterback or the running back. Sometimes they give it to the running back. The running back gives it to him going the other side.

• 58:46Jocko Willink?

  Goes to the other side.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  Goes to the other side. Exactly. You're correct. Yes. So that, okay, so that, that's an unorthodox play overall. That's not a typical play, but it's not like, when you see it, you know, okay, they ran the reverse.

• 59:00Jocko Willink?

  It's a, it's a play.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Yes. But it's unorthodox. But you get, there are teams that run a lot of those types of plays. But once the defense knows, oh, they run these kinds of plays, it's like, it doesn't work as good as all, at all.

• 59:13Jocko Willink?

  It's like when, um, leg locks.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:16Jocko Willink?

  People started getting, I remember we trained with people that thought that leg locks were just totally, they were the solution to jujitsu.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:25Jocko Willink?

  But we did, we did, we did leg locks.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:27Jocko Willink?

  We did even more leg locks than some guys that thought that leg locks were the solution to jujitsu. So all of a sudden, they try the leg locks, the leg locks weren't working.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:35Jocko Willink?

  We were doing leg locks, more than the leg lock people.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah.

• 59:39Jocko Willink?

  So then they had to try and do regular jujitsu and then.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Right, then you, yeah, then you get a, well, okay, so good example, so the leg locks, right? So remember, and let's go old school, right? UFC, I think one, or maybe two, I forget, but it was Ken Shamrock, Ken Shamrock, Hoist Gracie, Ken Shamrock knew some leg locks or whatever, right?

• 59:57Jocko Willink?

  He sat back for one.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Right, so this is, that's an example of what happens if someone knows your trick play, unorthodox play, but it's unorthodox for a reason, just like how you said, if it's like so effective, why don't you just do it all the time? Well, because it probably has more risks. If everyone's on a reverse, right, in football? If everyone's blocking to the right and we send one guy back to the left, you rely on them getting tricked that everything's going to the right. If they see the reverse all the time, they say, oh yeah, I see you right, but get ready for the reverse, that lone guy running around is gonna get creamed.

• 1:00:28Jocko Willink?

  You know that, that situation with Ken Shamrock and Hoist, that shows you how really a little bit beyond the, the Gracies at that time were even more highly developed than you thought they were.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Jocko Willink?

  Because with you, when you watch that sequence, Hoist immediately, he had a neck, he sat, sat right on a perfect like leg lock defense.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Now he's on top.

• 1:00:50Jocko Willink?

  And now he's on top, right?

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 1:00:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was the perfect leg lock defense at a time where basically no one was doing leg locks in jujitsu.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:58Jocko Willink?

  So it's pretty awesome and it's pretty impressive that even at that time, he had the defense for the leg lock now. I don't know, maybe they, maybe they saw enough of it or they knew that it was a possibility. He, cause Ken Shamrock was, what was he, champion of Pancras and, and Shuto?

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Shoot fighting.

• 1:01:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, shoot fighting, where they were doing leg locks. So they might've watched enough to go, oh, you know what? If he starts going for this, you gotta grab his neck, you gotta get on top.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, they, they did leg locks.

• 1:01:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, that's true too.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so there's a, there's a video, this is an old school video where it was Hoiler and Hickson doing it essentially a demonstration. Might've been in Pride or something like that, looked like maybe in the middle of Pride, maybe a halftime situation.

• 1:01:37Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  It so looked like, it's old school.

• 1:01:39Jocko Willink?

  But that's not more old school than UFC two.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:01:43Jocko Willink?

  You see what I'm saying?

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it might've been.

• 1:01:44Jocko Willink?

  So by the time they're teaching at Pride, yeah, everyone's kinda doing leg locks by then.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  But you know how like they do such hardcore fundamental like stuff?

• 1:01:52Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  This is, this is really the feel you got and part of the demonstration was a leg lock submission. It was like the basic straight, uh.

• 1:02:01Jocko Willink?

  Straight ankle locking?

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Straight ankle, yeah, exactly right. So you know how like when they do those demonstrations? You know, Horion Hicks in, the Hoiler, when they do those demonstrations, it's all just the basic, the fundamental Gracie Jiu Jitsu stuff. Yeah, and that was in there. It's not like they were like, okay, let's dazzle them with some new age stuff. It wasn't, there's none of that.

• 1:02:19Jocko Willink?

  Hey, here's a, here's a straight ankle.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  This is Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Yeah, exactly right. And it was part of it.

• 1:02:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  So you figure, yeah, of course they did that stuff.

• 1:02:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  With the gi too, by the way.

• 1:02:28Jocko Willink?

  Yep, and that's what I'm saying.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Jocko Willink?

  What I'm saying is, it's impressive.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Jocko Willink?

  Because if you're thinking like, well, you know, back then they didn't even do foot locks at all.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:37Jocko Willink?

  It's like, no, and actually, you know who did a lot, uh, you know, who did a number of foot locks to finish people? Hoiler.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:02:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Hoiler be snagging foot locks off of people.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  Exactly right. I mean, now the whole foot lock game is, is the whole, you know, it's advanced now, but, but again, go, going back to Hoist Gracie, Ken Shamrock, it's, it's, that's the example where it's like, oh, if leg, if foot locks back then, were such a cheat move, like such an easy, like shortcut-y kind of move that you surprise people with, like, why don't you just do them all the time? And then Ken Shamrock's sort of camp was kind of like, well, yeah, we do. That's part of how we win. You just get one guy to figure out the little trick, and you're exposed a lot of the time. That's why it's a trick move. Otherwise, it'd just be fundamental moves. See what I'm saying?

• 1:03:21Jocko Willink?

  So a trick move that you use all the time is not a trick at all?

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  It's.

• 1:03:24Jocko Willink?

  It's just another move.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  It's just another move. And here's the thing.

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  Concur.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  And it will not be another move if it has a high, high part or a high risk involved in it.

• 1:03:32Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  That's usually what trick moves are.

• 1:03:34Jocko Willink?

  Which is what Ken Shamrock got caught with, a high-risk move that actually Hoist was able to capitalize on.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  He's on top and Ken Shamrock's on the bottom. Same thing with the reverse. Same thing as a hail mare. Not, actually, that's not a trick move, but, same thing like a, uh, what do you call it? Uh, the, the one where you sweep it to the running back and then he throws the ball?

• 1:03:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Back to the quarterback.

• 1:03:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  You ever seen those moves?

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I have.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  It's like, that's a trick move. You see guys kill with that, but, bro, running backs can't throw the ball. Yeah, that's such a high-risk move. Oh, and don't let the quarterback get, make a catch and get creamed by one of the DBs. Now your quarterback's out, because you know, he doesn't take as much punishment as the rest of the guys on the team. So there's all this risk. See what I'm saying?

• 1:04:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. When Dean got Kakareko in the absolute finals.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:04:15Jocko Willink?

  With the, what we called the Kakareko heel hook, which is now called 50-50, but.

• 1:04:22Jocko Willink?

  You could see that Cockricle, there was confusion.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Jocko Willink?

  And I mean, obviously, he's an incredible world champion himself. But there was not, you could see like, he was not aware of what was happening.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:34Jocko Willink?

  And Dean was obviously fully aware.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  He was aware.

• 1:04:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But now, we've seen plenty of people, "Oh, you want to go to 50/50 with me? Okay, cool." And they're gonna, there's defenses and have a whole nine yards. So it's now, it's now not a hugely advantageous trick move, because it's just a normal move now.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Right, and then that's a good example of one of these things that, you know, when you create a whole system around like foot locks, for example, that you start to eliminate all the risk factors that come with it, that's what a system does. You know, it eliminates lingering problems, whatever, becomes like an actual effective system. If you can't eliminate the risks, it's, brother, it's not a system. You're still over here throwing risks out, really, hopefully you won't, you know. And that's what I think some of the old footlock guys or people, they'll be like, "Oh, I'll just jump for footlocks."

• 1:05:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  They'll jump for them, you know?

• 1:05:22Jocko Willink?

  That was definitely.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  And it's not based around like a system, systematic footlock game, like how it is like Dean had so early on, you know?

• 1:05:29Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  So that's why I think he was, he was as effective, you know?

• 1:05:33Jocko Willink?

  Definitely, very effective, we'll say.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:05:37Jocko Willink?

  All right, let's go back to where we were at. So we were talking about not delaying when you get in certain situations. And it was talking about, you know, hey, once you, once you do an attack, you get in a position, then you need to immediately set yourself up and, and get your defense ready. Immediately, don't wait. And then there's a, jumping forward to a section here where they talk about, how do you do that? Like, what's the methodology for making that happen? Well, here you go. Reorganization aided by prior planning. Lieutenant Colonel Ahern in Italy. From the battalion commander's point of view, the most vital feature of reorganization is prior planning. By that, I mean deciding well in advance whether all machine guns are going to displace forward immediately,

• 1:06:22Jocko Willink?

  or only half of them, deciding what areas the 81 millimeter mortars are going to cover, what areas the 60 millimeter mortars are going to cover, the various companies cover. All this planning is vital so that the prompt issuing of orders for reorganization can be affected immediately following the capture of the objective. Think about where you can use that in your, in your entire world, business, life, everything that's going on. Hey, when this happens, we're going to do this immediately afterwards. That is the deal.

• 1:06:51Jocko Willink?

  There's a comment here. This is from the editor. "All comment on attack tactics against the Germans emphasize the importance of prompt and thorough reorganization of the attack unit when it reaches its objective. It is necessary that this be accomplished in order to oppose effectively the habitual German counterattack." And it goes on, "Reorganization of an attack unit must begin at the elementary squad level and work to the top. Have squad leaders organize their squads, section leaders supervising the work of all squad leaders, the platoon commander assisted by the platoon sergeant supervises the work of the section leaders and so on, chain of command. The company commander must be planning the defense of the position, checking the dispositions of his weapons, and coordinating the fires of his mortars with his artillery support."

• 1:07:36Jocko Willink?

  So what does that say? It's decentralized command. So, pre-planning what you're gonna do when you win is a really important thing. And then, once you win, immediately execute the plan.

• 1:07:52Jocko Willink?

  This happens with companies that they close a deal, right? They close a deal, "Hey, I closed a deal with, you know, whatever, with Bill." If they're smart, they have a follow-up plan. It's emails coming two days later, "Hey Bill, just phoned up, wanted to make sure you got the support that you needed, and by the way, I also want to let you know, we've got some other features that we are adding to our product in two weeks. When it comes out, I want to let you know that's happening. And, also, I know that you've got some affiliate businesses that you also work with. I would like to reach out to them and see if we can help." You know what I'm saying? Like, you have a plan. A winning plan.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, uh, there's a, and there's a slight difference between, because as long as that plan isn't contingent on, like, the fact that you went, because just, just a little while ago, we were talking about, um, you know, the idea that, okay, my whole comprehensive plan, every move, like, one, the next move is dependent on you executing the first move.

• 1:08:52Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  Meanwhile, there's a lot of wiggle room in that first move. There's levels of success, you know?

• 1:08:56Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  So you literally can't go to the second plan if you don't achieve this certain thing, which is, that's a variable over there.

• 1:09:03Jocko Willink?

  However... Just to shut you down.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  No, I'm saying. No, I'm saying there's a difference there. I'm saying, don't get confused in that.

• 1:09:10Jocko Willink?

  Let me tell you what the difference is. This is important because you brought up a totally valid point. Tactical echo.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:09:15Jocko Willink?

  Gets the.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  Gets all day.

• 1:09:17Jocko Willink?

  Gets a W, but it's about to get a little bit revoked. Here's the deal.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:09:22Jocko Willink?

  So you're right. We don't know exactly how it's going to turn out, right? We don't know what that win actually looks like, but here's. Here's the deal. The section that I just read, what did it say? It said, let your section leaders lead, let your squad leaders lead. So what you say is, listen, folks, once we secure this objective, we are going to immediately develop a defensive posture. That means this, you spell out what your intention is. And then your subordinate leaders through decentralized command, step up and fulfill your intent immediately based on the particulars and the variables of the outcome of the victory.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:06Jocko Willink?

  One mission per patrol. A patrol should have a single and sole mission. There appears to be a general tendency upon the part of staff officers and immediate commanders to add a second mission just because the patrol is going to be in the vicinity of some point in which they are interested. I believe this is that this point of a single mission is highly important. So you're telling your people, hey, this is what I want you to go do. And these say, by the way, do this and by the way, do this. Doesn't help.

• 1:10:35Jocko Willink?

  What do you got, Dave?

• 1:10:39Jocko Willink?

  Leg locks?

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:10:40Jocko Willink?

  Football? Quarterback sneak?

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  Whatever, Bill. These lessons are everywhere.

• 1:10:45Dave Berke?

  Nah, you're just, you were, you're making that point about, hey, we just closed a deal with Bill. We're not done. And that was kind of a, kind of a micro example of like Jocko closes the deal with Bill, but I'm going to re, re, reach out to Bill on Monday and we're going to keep looking and. I was thinking in the context of this idea of hey, when we accomplish the mission or we have a win or whatever that success ends, that's true at that very small tactical level, that email to Bill. It's also true at the strategic level, at the highest level of, we work with companies and one of the things we do at the senior executive level is we help them build these big strategic plans, the five-year plan. But the five-year plan doesn't just map out five years and then at the end of those five years, we are done.

• 1:11:28Dave Berke?

  That five-year plan, the five-year cycle never ends. And so when we achieve these big victories in business, nothing really ends. It just leads us to the next thing so we can get bigger and bring more people in. That's true in sports. It's this idea that the win that we're looking for isn't the end of any of this. The win that we're looking for is what allows us to start to do more and bigger and other things of what that long-range strategy is, which actually, in the businesses we're working with, there's no end for them. They're going to get bigger, they're going to get more dominant, they're going to be more successful, they're going to branch out in other areas. And I'm a big fan of Echo's sports analogies, but the win, even if you're thinking like,

• 1:12:11Dave Berke?

  the team that wins the Super Bowl, you know what they want to do as soon as they win the Super Bowl? They want to celebrate that and that's cool. They want to win the next Super Bowl. Because if not, they become the story of, oh yeah, you guys won the Super Bowl and you didn't even make the playoffs next year. This idea of when you win, you have to plan to have something to do right after that, which is you're going to want to rest, you're going to want to take a knee, and that's the worst thing we can do because that win is fleeting. And you don't email Bill, you're going to lose Bill because somebody's going to get in there and you don't get Bill's contact, you're going to lose those contacts too. And that win is going to be meaningless in the long run unless you recognize the win is just another step as you're moving forward.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, that makes sense too, right? Where it's like, and you mentioned, you super quick, barely mentioned this, sure you want to party right after, right? After you win the Super Bowl. So, you know, the classic story, right? Like you have certain champions, right? Whatever. They win the Super Bowl. They win the heavyweight title. Whatever. Next day, they're training already. See what I'm saying? That's like the real champion.

• 1:13:09Jocko Willink?

  Dan Gable.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, meanwhile, you get like the one-time champion, right? Who may be like, I don't know, whatever. He's the one-time champion. He goes, he wins, and what's he doing? Partying, cruising. Oh, I need to take a couple of weeks off vacation. I'm gonna go spend my bonus money, whatever, and you know, on Kawaii, whatever, for a little bit. Meanwhile, like, you see what I'm saying? It's like, it makes sense. So the guy who can strategize like, yeah, I won, but, you know, like, the real champion's gonna get back to work immediately. It's kind of that, you know?

• 1:13:40Jocko Willink?

  It's 100% that. That's why these principles from combat apply to everything in life.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:13:48Jocko Willink?

  We're not just outspending our bonus money in Kawaii.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  Not necessarily, no.

• 1:13:53Jocko Willink?

  Poor map reading. Patrolling to provide security was generally good, but patrolling to maintain contact and determine enemy positions and movement was often slighted. Many patrol leaders lacked the ability to read a map and locate themselves.

• 1:14:07Jocko Willink?

  This resulted in incorrect information being brought back, failure to reach the objective, and an inability to call for fire support. Some patrols didn't know the situation and what to expect and what specific information was desired. They were not properly briefed prior to starting.

• 1:14:25Jocko Willink?

  So, once again, if we have a team who doesn't know where they are, they're useless. What does that mean? If you have a team that doesn't understand what they're making, how much they're making, how much they're producing, what their raw materials, where, what the level of their raw materials are, what level of, all those things. If people don't know where they are, they're worthless.

• 1:14:51Jocko Willink?

  Infantry notes.

• 1:14:54Jocko Willink?

  I get to read books that have sections that are called infantry notes. I'm a happy human. Inter-unit liaison. Major General Lucas, Italy. Experience has shown that enemy offensive action is usually along the boundaries between units. Boom. Ramadi.

• 1:15:14Jocko Willink?

  This fact emphasizes the need for close liaison and constant contact between adjacent units from squads on up. Maximum benefit from coordinated action will be realized if commanders will ensure that the following conditions are met. Exchange of active liaison personnel between adjacent units. Close contact between frontline organizations and a mutual agreement to ensure maximum combined protection along the boundary. Prompt report to adjacent units of any unusual enemy activity. Early advice of plans for attack, counterattack, or withdraw, together with a request for assistance desired from adjacent units. Commander should know at all times what units will be directly affected by their action and realize that it is their responsibility to keep those concerned informed.

• 1:15:59Jocko Willink?

  So, look, we work, we interact with all kinds of different groups, all kinds of different departments, all kinds of different divisions, all kinds of different companies. We work with companies all the time that all rely on other companies to get their job. It's B to B, right? It's business to business. How do we? Where does the weakness usually fall? Where does failure, I shouldn't say usually, where does failure often fall? It's in those seams between those two businesses. So what do you do? Here's some suggestions. Exchange active liaison personnel, right? Actually trade some people. Hey, take this person, I'll take that person. Let them run that project, let them work through this project. Close contact between organizations.

• 1:16:41Jocko Willink?

  Mutual agreement to work through those problems that you're gonna have. Prompt reporting. Hey, hey Echo, if your t-shirt business can't supply my silk screen business, can you please tell me? Right? That's what we want.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  I think you had that backwards, but yeah, I understand.

• 1:17:00Jocko Willink?

  What did I say? If your silk screen business?

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  If your t-shirt business can't supply my silk screen business.

• 1:17:06Jocko Willink?

  Why do you think I had that backwards?

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  Because usually silk screen provides service for the t-shirt business.

• 1:17:12Jocko Willink?

  I guess so.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  Well, actually, it's a two-way street. You're right. You're right.

• 1:17:15Jocko Willink?

  So either way.

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  Lack of perspective, my part, my bad.

• 1:17:18Jocko Willink?

  Either way, what we need to make sure is that we're talking to each other. Maybe I'm running out of ink.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:22Jocko Willink?

  And now I'm not going to be able to print your shirts.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Maybe my sales are going down. I can't supply you with that business. I don't depend on that anymore. You see what I'm saying?

• 1:17:29Jocko Willink?

  There we go.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Jocko Willink?

  Early advice of plans for attack, counterattack, or withdraw, right? So if I'm gonna be printing a ton of shirts, I tell Echo, hey, man, I got a big order from another company. I'm letting you know if you're gonna need something, here's the wait time. Oh, okay, let's plan through that. Okay, great.

• 1:17:47Jocko Willink?

  Commander should know at all times what units will be directly affected by their action. And realize that's my response is what I just said. It's my responsibility for telling you, hey, I'm gonna go, I've got a bunch of other stuff we've got to print. If you need something, you better tell me ASAP. ASAPually. Use your rifle. It's another good heading.

• 1:18:08Jocko Willink?

  Colonel Harry B. Sherman, commanding officer, infantry, Italy. We have a hard time getting riflemen to use their rifles. They depend too much on artillery and supporting weapons. In most cases, it would be better if they fired even if there is no visible target. A group of infantry, a group of riflemen may be stopped by a German machine gun, which they can't locate. But if they open fire in the general direction of the machine gun, the Germans will usually pull out. I believe that we have placed too much emphasis on fire orders and fire control by unit leaders. Men must be taught to open fire at once in the general direction of any target that is holding them up without waiting for any squad leader or any other individual to tell them to open fire. What is that? Is decentralized command. And it's also going on the offense.

• 1:18:54Jocko Willink?

  And it's also cover and move.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Is that kind of like in the UFC when a guy gets like hit real hard and he just starts swinging? Kind of like that?

• 1:19:03Jocko Willink?

  When he gets hit, so if you punched me really hard and my reaction is just to start swinging? A little bit.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Kind of, right?

• 1:19:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, kind of. Yeah, a little bit. Yep, yeah, actually, I would say accurate. It's like I'm in jujitsu when sometimes Dean gets like a good position on me and I use the spaz defense. It's kind of like that. Like he starts, I'm just gonna spaz out, start moving like crazy. It's just to like mess him up.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, throwing bullets down there. So it's like, oh, yeah, you're not picking your shots. I'll tell you that.

• 1:19:34Jocko Willink?

  Definitely not picking your shots.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 1:19:37Dave Berke?

  Yeah, there's a connection there too, to what you you were just talking about a little while ago too, which was hey, doing something is usually better than doing nothing. And if your plan is, hey, let's, um, you know, we're in a difficult situation. Let's assess a little bit. Let's reach out to, uh, you know, our supporting organizations while we're just sitting here doing nothing. As opposed to, hey, we've got resources right here that we can expand right now. Now, I can't win the war with these resources, but I need to use these resources right now. Hey, this team, get online, start employing, moving forward. Jaco, radio back, see what kind of fire support we have, coordinate with the other agencies inside your organization. But this tendency of I'm gonna sit back and see what's happening or doing nothing.

• 1:20:17Dave Berke?

  What they're saying is, hey, you are given those resources, those tools that you have, so you can use them. And yeah, that artillery always looks better. The airplanes look like a really cool. You imagine when we were in Ramadi, if every time we went on an assault, the criteria is we wanted to wait for aircraft first.

• 1:20:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Dave Berke?

  You're gonna sit there all day long. And I knew that firsthand as a amazingly, a liaison. My job as an Angloco Marine air naval gunfire liaison company was to try to bring that air support. But actually, the best thing I did was support them to say, hey, listen, we can't get air for all these times. Then I'm not going to provide you what you need. Let's come up with another way to do this. And when they show up, that'll be a great force multiplier. It'd be awesome. But we're not gonna sit around waiting for that thing. We've got all these other assets that we can use and we need to use them.

• 1:21:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cuz it's it's a real low risk, right? Yeah, if I start pushing forward right now, which seems like it'll be a lot easier for just me call some artillery over there. But guess what? You don't have it right now. So what seems like less risk is actually more risk. Because action beats inaction. So when I'm sitting here waiting for artillery or waiting for aircraft to come overhead. Guess what the enemy, who I just knew that they were somewhere over there, they're moving, they're maneuvering, and now I'm getting beat. So what seemed like less risk is actually more risk.

• 1:21:45Jocko Willink?

  Notes on training.

• 1:21:47Jocko Willink?

  How I would train a company now.

• 1:21:50Jocko Willink?

  Captain Robert C. Gates, Infantry Italy. If I had to train a rifle company again, I would stress the following. Basic discipline. Which means smart saluting, alertness of bearing, cleanliness and neatness of person, clothing and equipment. Shoes shined, haircut, etc.

• 1:22:12Jocko Willink?

  Get perfection in this early as is the basics of much later training. Combat firing on a course. Which included a lot of surprise targets. Proper distribution of small arms fire over suspected target area. Use of the rifle sling. Sniper training. B A R training, so the B A R is borderline heavy machine gun for them. To be given to every man in the squad until he has a thorough knowledge of the weapon. Is one of our more effective weapons, but must be in the hands of a trained man to really be valuable. A B A R man in one of our companies got 20 Germans for sure in an hour during one of the their counterattacks.

• 1:22:55Jocko Willink?

  This was one half the casualties his platoon inflicted. Credit.

• 1:23:01Jocko Willink?

  Scouting and patrolling need plenty of emphasis. So, terrain appreciation. To teach the men advantages and disadvantages of terrain features. Teach them to visualize how the ground on which you are located looks from the enemy's viewpoint. What he can see and what he can't see. Where you can take positions unobserved. So I was saying the other day. That I think terrain. In combat is the difference. And I'm not 100% sure on this, is the difference between a white belt and a purple belt. When you know terrain. When you understand how you can use that berm, or how you can use that ravine, or how you can use that high ground.

• 1:23:44Jocko Willink?

  When you start to understand that, that's when you can just start to tap people out by maneuvering. And I'm not 100% sure that we're, the, the reason I'm not 100% sure about it is.

• 1:23:56Jocko Willink?

  Is because it's this massive thing. It's like a, it's like. Understanding. The theory of grappling itself.

• 1:24:07Jocko Willink?

  So if you, if you took fighting, like, okay, what's a fight? It's two people swinging punches at each other and trying to kick each other. If that's what we think fighting is. Once you know terrain, now it's like, we understand that there's a whole nother dimension. It's called grappling. So maybe the purple belt thing doesn't really work. But as far as just comprehensive understanding of how to fight.

• 1:24:30Jocko Willink?

  When you understand terrain, all of a sudden you understand there is a third dimension in the game. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think I just talked myself through it. I think I figured it out.

• 1:24:43Jocko Willink?

  That's the big thing to try and teach the young SEAL leaders.

• 1:24:48Jocko Willink?

  Is like, okay. The minute you move over here, the enemy can't shoot at you anymore. Yeah. You move four me, if you can get your platoon to move four meters as a whole to the east. You are free and clear from those guys. Yeah. And that means you can now run or you can move quickly. Yeah.

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, even like even like the high ground, right? We always hear that and I probably don't understand the amount that there is to understand about it, but it's like in in fighting their positions you can be in where you can hit them and they literally can't hit you like there's positions like that. But then if you don't know about them, you could ask somebody, okay, what's that position? And they don't know that like grappling or nothing like that. It's really hard to figure it out. It's almost impossible, really.

• 1:25:34Jocko Willink?

  Basically, the high ground is being on top.

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's say you're mounted, though, like Brendan's punching you really if you're mounted. And you know how to fight, of course. Like, yeah, if you're just a kid mounted.

• 1:25:46Jocko Willink?

  You're in the high ground.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:47Jocko Willink?

  And that's a dominant high ground. If you're in their guard, you're still in the high ground. But you're not like in maybe the best, most dominant high ground. The thing that's interesting that you got to remember about high ground is the way your angle, if you're hiding in a foxhole, if I'm in a foxhole and you're in an elevated position above me, what good is my foxhole? If I'm in it, if that's even if I'm in a pretty deep foxhole, if I'm above you, I can be in a shallow foxhole and I'm totally protected.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  Kind of in a way, I mean, depends on where you are, I guess. But you don't even have to be in a foxhole, really. You just gotta back up a little bit.

• 1:26:26Jocko Willink?

  That's how good high ground is. Whereas if you're on the low ground, a foxhole doesn't even really do you any good.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  No foxhole.

• 1:26:35Jocko Willink?

  Not to mention, you got gravity on your side.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:26:37Jocko Willink?

  You know, which is a powerful thing. So terrain appreciation. So if you're a if you're happen to be a military individual and you're new to the game, start thinking about terrain. Next, camouflage and camouflage discipline, particularly the discipline.

• 1:26:55Jocko Willink?

  Pound into the men, the necessity of not making trails, not moving around when the enemy can observe your position and similar matters until each man always thinks about it.

• 1:27:06Dave Berke?

  I mean, it's, I told you, man, the best thing about being here is I just get to listen to this stuff. You know, we were just talking about terrain and I was thinking, if you're, you're in a competition, whatever it is, I don't care if it's jujitsu, the military, private sector, if you understand terrain and your opponent doesn't, you have this massive, massive disparity. It's, it makes things so much easier. If you understand how to use the terrain and you're fighting against someone who doesn't, it, you can be undermanned, you can be under-resourced, under-equipped, and it's the same thing in the private sector. You don't have to be the biggest company. If you understand how the environment around you is working and your

• 1:27:47Dave Berke?

  product or your, your interaction with the market does, works, and your opponents don't, you can be the smallest company out there and you're going to end up dominating because you understand the terrain. And then you were just talking about the connection to camouflage and as you're saying that, we were just talking, don't give away your position. And I just love how listening to these things that we talk about, the connections between all the other lessons that you keep talking about over and over again. And I'm just sitting here over like, Chaco just said that when the last time we were here and don't give away your position and camouflage allows you to not do that. And he's made the comments like this, especially the camouflage, was that point he was making.

• 1:28:29Jocko Willink?

  The, the other thing, well, when I talk to people about the importance of terrain and then you translate that into leadership, what you realize is that human beings are the terrain. The people that you're dealing with, they are at various elevations. They have various micro terrain. Their, their personality is terrain that can be high and low. And that's why we literally say, take the high ground morally, right? So if Echo

• 1:29:10Jocko Willink?

  does something, if he's working for me or we're, we're, we're working together, then he does something. He does something that he shouldn't have done.

• 1:29:20Jocko Willink?

  I need to maintain the moral high ground. The minute that I say, hey, I know you took some money from that client. Give me 10% of it or else I'm gonna report you. What does that do? I can never, I just gave up the high ground and I can never get it back. I can never get it back. Everything is gonna be a struggle from here on out. So, the way that you view things, and if you start to view the elevations that you're seeing, the way people behave, the way people interact, where the ravines are, where the cover is. Who is covering, who is concealment? Meaning, like if I know that Dave will back me up.

• 1:30:02Jocko Willink?

  In the, in like the deepest sense of the word, but Echo, he'll, he'll like stick up for me a little bit, but then he's gonna, he's gonna bow down to whatever temptations are there. That means Dave's gonna give me cover. Echo's gonna give me a little concealment, but then he's gone. Like those interactions. When you're dealing with people, you're dealing with terrain. You're dealing with variations in the surfaces of where you're working.

• 1:30:32Jocko Willink?

  Organization of squad leaders, squad chain of leadership. To the point where if there's only two men left in the squad, they will know automatically who, which one is the leader. Keep the squad organized this way regardless of casualties and consequent replacements.

• 1:30:48Jocko Willink?

  Some other information, very, very tactical. In selecting non-commissioned officers, I am convinced.

• 1:30:56Jocko Willink?

  In selecting non-commissioned officers. I am convinced that steadiness is the first asset.

• 1:31:05Jocko Willink?

  How do we talk about steadiness? We talk about the ability to detach, not get emotional. That's the first asset.

• 1:31:13Jocko Willink?

  Resourcefulness is the second. So how am I gonna get these problems solved? Or what can I use with what I have to get these freaking problems solved? That's number two. Intellect, third.

• 1:31:28Jocko Willink?

  I've known some really smart people that were really ineffective.

• 1:31:36Jocko Willink?

  Flanking out machine guns. The battle indoctrination courses have given some troops the idea that if they attack machine guns by crawling toward the machine guns on their bellies without a chance of hitting back. This is not so. They must go around and flank them out. In this connection, in training and in maneuvers, we should teach this flanking out by having our men to go over the toughest and hardest hills available as we had to do in Sicily and Italy. It's just over and over again. Physical conditioning too is all important. Here in the so-called rest period, all infantry men take a four-mile march in 40 minutes each day. Precision and snap in all basic drill, including calisthenics, should be stressed.

• 1:32:20Jocko Willink?

  Precision and snap.

• 1:32:26Jocko Willink?

  That's something that I'm not good at. What, snapping? Precision and snap in my movements. I see some, I see some guys like doing exercises, whatever, name an exercise, I don't, and I see they have a lot of snap.

• 1:32:41Jocko Willink?

  I need to focus on that more, more precision and snap. Oh, here's a little headline for you.

• 1:32:48Jocko Willink?

  "The Hard Way Is Safer." Colonel Harry B. Sherman, commanding officer, 7th Infantry, Italy. "Stress night cross-country movements and night attacks. Don't allow the units or individuals to use any road, path, trail, or any other easy route of advance. In every case, they, in every case, have them move by only the most difficult and inaccessible terrain in the vicinity. Roads, paths, trails, and even just open ground that offers easy going are almost invariably mined or booby-trapped. Make the men regard the most difficult ground as the natural route of advance, and it will save many casualties."

• 1:33:31Jocko Willink?

  The easy path leads downhill, my friends.

• 1:33:36Jocko Willink?

  This is kind of epic. Motors, they, by the way, I'm skipping through a bunch of this stuff because they go through each individual like department of combat, right? But I read them all because there's always things that you can learn. So this one is, this is like the motor pool. Motors need maintenance. Brigadier General Vincent Meyer, commanding 18th Field Artillery Brigade, Italy. It was my experience that as soon as we moved out of the staging area and got within range of the enemy's guns, motor maintenance, for some strange reason, came to a summary end. It was partly due to the vile weather and to the slimy mud. First echelon maintenance was so utterly wanting that drivers were not even checking

• 1:34:21Jocko Willink?

  the water level in the radiators. The motor mechanics were honestly trying to do proper second echelon maintenance, but they were exposed to the weather with no overhead cover from the rain and were slipping and sliding around in the mud that was inches deep. It finally got them down. They just couldn't cope with it. So, so I read you all that and I read you all that for a very specific reason. So you got this. People aren't doing maintenance. The, the drivers that are supposed to probably do some kind of a cursory check of a vehicle, they're not even checking if the freaking radios are filled. Now we got vehicles are overheating and then the secondary maintenance, these guys are, they, they're out there in the weather. So what is this guy's solution to the problem?

• 1:34:58Jocko Willink?

  Corrective measures. When I realized the gravity of the situation,

• 1:35:05Jocko Willink?

  I placed an energetic leader in charge. That's what he did. That's what he did. Placed an energetic leader in charge. He, meaning this energetic leader, immediately scouted around and got a place with overhead cover and hard standing, using available buildings and got a couple of caves. We required that the drivers clean off mud and drain old oil across the street from the shop. This helped to keep the shop in clean order. As to the first echelon maintenance of my motor, my, as to the first line maintenance, my motor officer had to bear down in no uncertain terms, but in two or three days, the drivers were back to doing the things they had been trained to do for so many months prior to entry into combat.

• 1:35:46Jocko Willink?

  In addition, I required every officer, so already we got multiple good things, right? You got a problem? Look, I don't even, I'm not gonna solve the problem. I put a good leader in there. The good leader starts to figure things out. Oh, we're freaking walking around the go, gonna get an overhead cover, gonna get some caves. And then this guy starts holding the line. Hey, you need to freaking do your maintenance checks. Took them two or three days to tighten them back up. Why is that?

• 1:36:12Jocko Willink?

  You hold the line. What are you holding the line on? If you allow slack, they're gonna take it. Bro, you think I wanna do vehicle maintenance? Echo Charles?

• 1:36:21Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 1:36:21Jocko Willink?

  No, I don't wanna do vehicle maintenance. You know what I wanna do is give my vehicle to you and let you worry about all that crap. That's what I wanna do. I'm lazy. So I just give it to you and if you accept it, guess what? I'm never doing maintenance again. If you say, hey, bro, sorry, Jaco, you gotta do your share.

• 1:36:40Jocko Willink?

  What if I don't? I'm not taking your vehicle.

• 1:36:44Jocko Willink?

  Two or three days later, I'm not even asking. I'm just doing my job. Okay, so those, that's awesome. And then it gets this. In addition, I required every officer, prior to starting on a trip with a motor vehicle to check at least one item on the car in which he was traveling. For example, tires, battery, water. So then he put another little level of checks in there.

• 1:37:05Jocko Willink?

  Freaking legit. By the way, all the problems that you have are leadership problems.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  Kinda goes for your kids too, right? That thing, that, or that, that concept right there? Like your kids, right? If they're like, hey, get, I don't know, throw away my rubbish.

• 1:37:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh, like your kids aren't doing their vehicle maintenance?

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. When they can, but if you do them for,

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  we mean, not vehicle maintenance, obviously, but they're metaphoric vehicle maintenance.

• 1:37:32Jocko Willink?

  So they're not cleaning their room? They're not making their bed?

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  Here's my, my son just turned four, by the way, so. That's about the time, you know, give or take where they brush their own teeth. But like you expect a three and a half, four year old kid to brush their teeth good. Maybe, maybe not. In the beginning, when it's like two, when they start getting teeth, you brush the teeth for them, right? But if you're like, hey, you're trying to save time on bedtime scenarios and all this stuff. You'd be like, just come here, I'll brush your teeth and you brush them good or whatever. Cause you're an adult, you know how to brush teeth, right? But as a kid, they're gonna be like turning three, turning four, and if you keep brushing their teeth for them, they're just gonna keep doing it, just like if you keep giving me your truck to change the oil or whatever you're trying to do to me or whatever, same kind of thing.

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  But if you're like, hey, and actually you kind of taught me this about the tying the shoes thing, you know? I don't care if you're trying to save time, learn how to tie your shoes. So if you're like, hey, I'm not brushing your teeth, you're brushing your own teeth. You do it once, do it twice, after all, they'll be like, I'm brushing my own teeth. I don't want to, I would way rather just sit there as a kid and then quite frankly, as an adult and just show my teeth have someone else brushed them way more, right? But man, it's just not like that.

• 1:38:42Jocko Willink?

  Here's what you do, age three, you show your child the faces of meth transitions where people are on methamphetamines and they get arrested over several years and their teeth ended up all yellow and falling out.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:54Jocko Willink?

  And you say, hey, do you want to see faces of people that don't brush their teeth?

• 1:38:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yes, and of course that, that's true. I don't know if I'd ever do that, you know, two, two, three, four, maybe I would, I don't know. But I feel like that comes before.

• 1:39:08Jocko Willink?

  That's the why, by the way.

• 1:39:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:10Jocko Willink?

  This is why you brush your teeth.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Yes, or that's why you get your, your teeth have to be brushed. So now we're in phase two already where it's like, just like how you, you're gonna give me your truck to change the oil. You know the oil has to be changed. We already know that part. See what I'm saying? It's just a matter of whether I'm gonna do it or if someone can do that thing for me. See what I'm saying? What if it's like, no, no slack, you do your own thing.

• 1:39:31Jocko Willink?

  Since you don't even want to brush your own teeth, I highly doubt that you're gonna be changing it.

• 1:39:34Speaker 01

  I'm saying, look, I don't want, I want my teeth brushed, how about that? I don't want to, I don't want them not to be brushed. But if someone else could brush, okay, maybe not brush your teeth, let's not say that, how about?

• 1:39:45Jocko Willink?

  Whatever, do your dishes.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  Clean your house, yeah, do the dishes, that's a big one. What if someone's like, oh, someone always does your dishes, you know, you just sort of like, ah.

• 1:39:53Jocko Willink?

  When my wife, when my wife is mad that my kids didn't do the dishes? And she'll tell me like, oh, the kids didn't do the dishes as she's cleaning the dishes.

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:04Jocko Willink?

  You know how many times I've cleaned the dishes because my children didn't clean them?

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Zero.

• 1:40:08Jocko Willink?

  Zero times.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:09Jocko Willink?

  Zero times.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:11Jocko Willink?

  That's not a good way to train your kids. If they didn't do the dishes. Well, that's not actually a thing. Shouldn't be a thing. They do the dishes.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, yeah, that makes sense. That's the worst way to train somebody.

• 1:40:23Jocko Willink?

  My daughter's, my, on the family group text.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:40:27Jocko Willink?

  The other day. My oldest daughter posted something that's, or sent to the group text, which was a screenshot of a post that someone had made. And it said like, my dad talk, no, like dad talks about hard, value of hard work. Hasn't done dishes in seven years, you know? And that was the big hit on Jaco.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  Oh, they're doing, doing your dishes? Wait, so look, if you're not doing your own dishes, they're doing your dishes, you're on the other side of that scenario. They're not holding the line on your discipline.

• 1:41:00Jocko Willink?

  They have their jobs.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Ah, okay, okay. We're talking about a bigger system now.

• 1:41:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is, this is the system.

• 1:41:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:07Jocko Willink?

  I have, I have responsibilities in the house.

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  You do?

• 1:41:10Jocko Willink?

  Yes. They're called, it's called paying mortgages, right? It's called providing the roof.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:17Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's what I do.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 1:41:19Jocko Willink?

  They have their responsibilities, things like doing the dishes.

• 1:41:25Jocko Willink?

  So it was a pretty good shot. I got a kick out of it. My daughter giving me a hassle.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Or you could get super technical and be like, hey, I don't regard doing dishes as the benchmark for hard work.

• 1:41:36Jocko Willink?

  No, I mean, they, fortunately, they weren't trying to have a legitimate argument with me.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:41Jocko Willink?

  Because they were not, they know not that that's not a.

• 1:41:45Speaker 01

  They know you're down for that scrap.

• 1:41:47Jocko Willink?

  Solution. All right. Essentials of jungle warfare, jungle SOPs. SOP attack procedures, combat patrol. Once again.

• 1:41:58Jocko Willink?

  If I've gotten to a point in my life where I'm reading a document that says SOP attack procedures, combat patrol, I'm pretty happy about the world. One, have a covered route of withdrawal picked out in advance in case enemy pressure becomes too great. This, this is another little hint towards the value of pre-planning. If you're gonna have to leave, tell everyone where you're gonna leave by.

• 1:42:21Jocko Willink?

  To keep one squad back as a reserve and to provide a force to cover the forward elements of the patrol if they are forced to withdraw. Why am I talking about this? What in God's name does this have to do with anything that we're doing here in a leadership situation? Well, let me tell you, when you're in a business, and I'm in businesses,

• 1:42:44Jocko Willink?

  you have a certain amount of capital. Those are your resources. Every military,

• 1:42:54Jocko Willink?

  modern, every modern military book, actually, no, it's not even just modern. If you go back and you listen to this podcast, everything that we've ever talked about says you need to have a reserve. Why is that? Because you're going to come up against variables that you didn't expect. So these people, when we, when we sit here and talk about variables and I'm acting as if, hey, here's a real cool concept about the variables and the things that could go wrong. Okay, it's been talked about for thousands of years. And in order to cover down on those variables that you cannot anticipate, you need to have some level of reserve. So, when you are running a business, and you have to place resources in different things,

• 1:43:35Jocko Willink?

  you can buy this much produce, you can buy this much, you know, gear, you can buy this much, you spend money, let's just, let's just say money, that's a simple one. We have this much money. Is it smart to use all of, to employ all of our money at the same time? No, it is not. You must keep a reserve back, because when Echo's project goes sideways, so if I say, oh, I'm going to give half my money to Echo and half my money to Dave, half of our, half of the money that we have, half to Echo and half to Dave, oh, because we want to get the project done quickly. And then all of a sudden, Echo hits a, hits a hiccup. What, what can I do now? Nothing. I have nothing else to give. So what I should do is

• 1:44:20Jocko Willink?

  give a third of my resources to Echo, a third to Dave. We start to move forward. You hit a hiccup, Echo, no problem, we got your back. Little reserve capital, ready to employ.

• 1:44:34Jocko Willink?

  Men should be designated to watch for snipers. Now, why is that important? How does that relate to anything? What company are we talking to right now that needs to have a person designated to watch for snipers? Let me explain.

• 1:44:50Jocko Willink?

  When you are doing anything and you give people important jobs as collateral duties, you can anticipate that those collateral duties will not be done with maximum effectiveness.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  What's collateral duties?

• 1:45:06Jocko Willink?

  Meaning, hey Echo, I want you to navigate, I want you to cut the brush that's out in front of us, I want you to look for booby traps, and I want you to look for snipers. Here's the third thing, just look, sorry, your fourth job is to look for snipers. How much time are you spending looking for snipers? The answer is very little, if any. So what I need to do is say, Echo, you got these three jobs? Cool. But one thing I really don't want to have happen is get hit by a sniper. So Dave, he's gonna be in the middle of the patrol. He's not cutting brush, he's not looking for booby traps. What he's gonna do is he's gonna move forward a little bit, he's gonna stop, and while the patrol moves, he's gonna be looking for snipers. That's his job.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  And what's the philosophy there? Is it because, of course, watching for snipers is important, but you don't want to compromise any of your jobs because you're spread thin? Or is it because a certain job, kind of, kind of, almost in a way, requires less attention from time to time?

• 1:46:05Jocko Willink?

  Here's another example. We started getting EOD, Explosive Ordnance Disposal, individuals tasked to our platoons in the SEAL teams. As this was happening, and we started getting these guys that, this was in the beginning of the war, a lot of the EOD guys that were coming on board, like, they weren't, they hadn't been through any combat skills training, they didn't really know what they were doing, and of course, I didn't really know any of these guys at the time, so I'm just thinking, why would we take a regular Navy EOD guy that's used to being on an aircraft carrier in case there's an emergency with a bomb that's strapped to an F-18 that needs to get disarmed? Why would we take that guy and try and make him basically into a SEAL?

• 1:46:49Jocko Willink?

  When it'd be, seems like it'd be a lot easier to me to take a seal, send them to an EOD school, you learn the skills and then if something happens, you can, you can handle it. My commanding officer at the time said, "Hey Jaco, here's the deal. If it's a collateral dude," he didn't use these exact words, but he said the exact same thing, which is, "Hey, if the enemy is gonna be using booby traps, which they are, and IEDs, we wanna have somebody that that's the focus of their life." And I, soon as he said that, I was like, "Oh, good point. Thank you. I will gladly train an EOD individual so that they are focused on keeping us alive."

• 1:47:27Jocko Willink?

  So if you have prior, it's, it's, it's a form of prioritize and execute. Meaning I can't take something that's important. If I deem something as important, I need to assign it to a person as their primary responsibility. Post out, outpost to cover platoon as it's, as it organizes the position. Place loaded automatic weapons nearby in case enemy attacks during it. So, cover your flanks. Select a difficult position to attack, preferably on high ground. I just have to say when it says high ground. Cover trails and other likely avenues of enemy approach with well dug in automatic weapons pits. Dig three man emplacements so that they are mutually supporting and cover the area completely around the platoon.

• 1:48:10Jocko Willink?

  If the platoon has sufficient communication equipment, this, a sound powered telephone net connecting the platoon command post with each squad should be provided, be able to talk to each other. Booby trap the area complete, completely around the perimeter. Clear light brush and fire lanes outside the perimeter for 20 to 40 yards. These are real tactical things. Arrange artillery and supporting fires. Place sharp pointed sticks 10 to 25 feet and he goes, goes through that. Use grenades freely when the enemy is seen or heard. Hold weapons fire until a definite target is observed. Premature firing of weapons will disclose positions. Dave, you talked earlier about not wanting to disclose our positions. When you start shooting at night, that's definitely gonna happen.

• 1:48:54Jocko Willink?

  Muskets of the Jungle Soldier, First Marine Corps. If he is to survive, it must be second nature for every jungle soldier to keep his mouth shut on the trail. Recognize common jungle sounds, keep his eyes off the ground when on the trail and maintain a constant watch toward the head of the column and to a selected flank. Get off the trail at holds, conceal himself and observe the flanks, dig in at protracted holds. Know the Nambu, which is the light machine gun of the Japanese by its sound because it is the framework of the Jap jungle organization and it is an guide to flanks and strong points. That's so good.

• 1:49:36Jocko Willink?

  You gotta know what the Japanese machine gun sounds like because if you know, if you see where that Japanese machine gun is, it's on their flanks or it's in their strong points.

• 1:49:49Jocko Willink?

  Black his face and hands to and remove any shine from equipment, conserve his own ammunition and pick up abandoned bandolier when he sees one. Memorize and invariably use the unit selected code words for leaders, various maneuvers, ammunition, corpsmen, etc. Be able to select a night position so that the jungle works to his advantage and to the disadvantage of the infiltrating Japs. Appreciate the fact that Japs do not have cat's eyes, that they are afraid of the dark and that at night, a moving Jap is an easy victim for a silent Marine who believes in his bayonet. Care for his equipment religiously, weapons deteriorate with unbelievable rapidity in the jungle and must be cleaned at every opportunity.

• 1:50:32Jocko Willink?

  Good.

• 1:50:35Jocko Willink?

  What's good about that is, and the main reason why I thought it was important to say that,

• 1:50:44Jocko Willink?

  is because if you're in charge,

• 1:50:48Jocko Willink?

  that section right there shows you how important it is to convey to all the troops a baseline of actions that is going to help you win.

• 1:51:05Jocko Willink?

  Because it's real easy to sit back and think, well, obviously, you should know what this machine gun feels, sounds like and obviously, you should blacken your face and like all those things seem super obvious.

• 1:51:20Jocko Willink?

  But why are they written here? Because people failed to do them. So as a leader, what can you look at inside your team where there might be some obvious things? And by the way, you know, these things have, I've been talking a lot lately about

• 1:51:34Jocko Willink?

  values and, and the fact that if you have the proper values, this is sort of the ultimate form of decentralized command because people can operate just based on the values. So these are almost, these are like these minor things that almost become values, right? To use your code words every single time, to conserve your ammunition every single, those are, those are almost like values that you have. Dig in at protracted holds. Think if you did, if you were a jungle fighter and you did all these things all the time, that's the way you operate. Your survivability is going to be infinitely larger than someone that doesn't do these things.

• 1:52:16Jocko Willink?

  So what is going on at your business inside your teams where this stuff isn't happening every single time? What do you need to tell people? What needs to happen? You know, these are the things you need to think about as a leader. They're not as obvious as you think.

• 1:52:36Dave Berke?

  They're also the things that your people need to know because those are the things that they need to do so you can win. Your people, the ones that aren't camouflaging their faces or, or recognizing the sounds of those machine guns, not only do they not know what they're supposed to be doing because more than likely, nobody's ever explained it or taught it to them. They also don't understand why it's important, what the significance of it. And if we do this as a team, we are going to win. And if we don't, we're going to lose. There's a reason our enemies put out snipers. And it's the same thing in businesses. You're, you are, if you're in, if you're running a business right now, listening to this podcast and you own a company or lead a team, you're at war. The people you're competing with don't want to share space with you, have an equitable share of the market.

• 1:53:21Dave Berke?

  They want to run you into the ground and they're going to harass you, they're going to probe you, they're going to watch you, they're going to try to take you out. They're going to set up snipers and machine guns and you have to know what you need to do to win. And if your people on the front lines don't know this, you're going to lose. And the reason they're not doing it isn't because. There's something wrong with them, or they're not, it's because you haven't shown them why they need to do that for you guys to win. And that's why this, these lessons get repeated over and over and over again. And that's why it's so fun to listen to this stuff.

• 1:53:56Jocko Willink?

  Patrolling Jungle Craft Lieutenant B. Mayer Infantry, Bougainville. I think back now on how I used to cuss when scouting and patrolling came up on the schedule. He's talking about training. I had the idea that with all the lectures and field work we had, it would all come as second nature when we got into combat. But let me tell you something. I have many veterans of Guadalcanal in my platoon who have lots of combat experience in patrolling, and they still have plenty to learn. Let me give you an example of a four-day patrol we had in Jap territory. In those four days, we moved about a thousand yards a day.

• 1:54:36Jocko Willink?

  Starting at seven in the morning, an hour stop for lunch, and ending at five. Figure out for yourself how far we averaged per hour. It's pretty tough to move like a cat through the jungle hour after hour. One man causing a little too much noise can cause the annihilation of a patrol. I sincerely mean it, because it has happened.

• 1:55:02Jocko Willink?

  Teamwork.

• 1:55:05Jocko Willink?

  Men must not try to fight the Japs individually. A soldier fighting on his own is a most uneconomical investment, and unless he is lucky, he will accomplish very little. It is a rare occasion when a Japanese machine gun is not covered by other weapons, including a sniper or two. No one man can move in on such a combination. Fighting must be done by mutually supporting groups, and in order to make this system effective, training must be continuous, and every effort must be made to keep the composition of the groups unchanged.

• 1:55:38Jocko Willink?

  Essential standards. The successful and efficient intelligence and reconnaissance platoon should have the following standards. Select personnel mentally and physically better than average. Each member should be the equal of the average squad leader. Rigorous physical hardening. Lots of hill and mountain climbing. Experience in the jungle. During training, they should stay out for eight or 10 days at a time. Use native guides and learn how to read signs from them. Have them show the men the edible fruits and vegetables. Strict water discipline, both as to the amount consumed and its purification. Ability to move rapidly and silently.

• 1:56:20Jocko Willink?

  Use arm and hand signals to indicate the situation and the desired action. No talking or whispering. Constant maintenance of visual contact, front and rear, left and right. Physical hardening. Here's some basic principles. Travel light, no papers, include a high percentage of automatic weapons and concentrate a large proportion of them well forward. The point should be heavily armed. When I used to hear the Vietnam guys talking about they would move the machine gunners close to the point because you're expecting a contact front. That was the kind of became the SOP often. Well, not all the time, but it was, we used it all the time in Ramadi. JP almost always had Mikey up there.

• 1:57:05Jocko Willink?

  Why? JP's on point, needs that cover fire. Approach streams gingerly. The Japs like streams best for their ambushes. Make sure that the point has grenades in his hands when he starts across it. Damn, that's freaking fired up. Don't pause for any reason until both banks have been well scouted in both directions. Select successive reorganization points as the patrol progresses down the trail to provide for swift reorganization. Maneuver swiftly on first contact. Jap ambushes, Jap ambush weapons are not normally sighted to cover wide fields of fire and usually

• 1:57:48Jocko Willink?

  bear mainly on the trail. Likewise, the Japs react poorly to an attacker who makes and acts on his decisions quickly.

• 1:58:05Jocko Willink?

  And yes, I, uh, obviously I'm using the term "jap" here. I know it's an offensive term, but this is the literature of this time period. And they're not talking about the Japanese people. They're talking about the Imperial Japanese Armor, uh, Army and Military who they were fighting to the death. Infantry. Control is hard to maintain in squads, platoons, and companies when operating in the woods. Connecting groups are soon lost from sight and sound. It is necessary that particular attention be directed by all commanders from the squad, leader on up the, to maintain control of their forces and contact with adjacent units. Every individual must know the location of his immediate superior and his CP at all time.

• 1:58:51Jocko Willink?

  And this is the last thing from this particular volume. Fighting spirit. It was notable that until such time as the infantry got fighting mad, there was a carefree attitude among the troops.

• 1:59:07Jocko Willink?

  In training, this mad spirit can be developed to a certain degree.

• 1:59:15Jocko Willink?

  The use of cover in advancing by creeping and crawling must be stressed. It is necessary to emphasize the importance of the live soldier as compared to the dead hero.

• 1:59:31Jocko Willink?

  Emphasize the importance of the live soldier as compared to the dead hero. And that's sort of a dichotomy between that and fighting mad.

• 1:59:42Jocko Willink?

  And fighting mad and staying focused. And they call that fighting spirit. So...

• 1:59:51Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Lessons being learned over and over again.

• 1:59:57Jocko Willink?

  You would think that...

• 2:00:00Jocko Willink?

  You would think that the things that we talk about, the things that we teach, the things that we teach to the military, the things that we teach to the business world, the things that we teach to law enforcement, you would think that the things that we teach, which we're literally reading from a book, that's what, whatever, 70 years old. You would think that people would just be like, "Hey, bro, what are you trying to teach us?" You're teaching the most obvious things ever. We don't need you. You'd think that we wouldn't have a business. But we do. Oddly enough, there's something, there's a, there's a force that draws people in the wrong direction.

• 2:00:46Jocko Willink?

  And, and what should I say, there's forces. There's forces that draw you in the wrong direction. Forces of ego, the forces of lack of perspective. There's another force in addition to those forces that I talked about earlier. What, ego, perspective, and what?

• 2:01:07Dave Berke?

  Emotion.

• 2:01:08Jocko Willink?

  Ego, perspective, and detachment. The other one, the other fourth thing that draws people down is complacency and just weakness.

• 2:01:21Dave Berke?

  Totally.

• 2:01:21Jocko Willink?

  Just taking the easy path. Those are the four. Those are the four things that mess us up. There's a fourth leg to the stool. Complacency, emotion, or emotion slash detachment.

• 2:01:43Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:45Jocko Willink?

  These are the things that draw people down. Ego.

• 2:01:51Dave Berke?

  You and I have been talking about ego a bunch lately. It just so happens that that's been the topic of our most recent series of conversations, whether it's Eve Online or just you and me, or ego just happened to be on the forefront. When I was, as you're talking, the word complacency was just ringing in my head. And I was thinking, as you said, not that it's, it's a separate thing, but...

• 2:02:19Dave Berke?

  Your ego will get out of control when you're complacent.

• 2:02:21Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely. And, and if your ego is out of control, you'll get complacent.

• 2:02:25Dave Berke?

  Totally. And then if you just think you're just gonna detach from emotion and just, you get complacent about your ability to do that, you will get sucked in. And if you wanna actually see it from other people's points of view and go, hey, how will it look if I say this? If you get complacent and understand it, it was just the way you put that, that word under, under all three of those things of that triangle is, it's the complacency that is why you don't apply those three things. And we can draw it however you want, it's just the way you're saying it in my mind was when, when I don't keep my ego, when my ego mechanism isn't working,

• 2:03:07Dave Berke?

  it's because I'm, I'm being complacent with, oh, I'm humble, I'm a humble guy, Dave's humble, I know how to keep my ego in check. And the minute I tell myself I can do that, my ego gets out of control.

• 2:03:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, complacency is an underlying symptom and cause

• 2:03:23Jocko Willink?

  of these three things that keep us in business, bro.

• 2:03:30Jocko Willink?

  They keep us in business, right on. All right, Echo Charles.

• 2:03:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:03:35Jocko Willink?

  We kind of closed out talking about fighting spirit.

• 2:03:37Speaker 01

  Fighting spirit, yeah.

• 2:03:39Jocko Willink?

  Any suggestions on how we can keep our fighting spirit up?

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  Keep the fighting spirit up, yes. The path, that's what I'm talking about. Okay, so in our, on our path, and we all have individual paths, by the way. Some overlapping elements, of course, fitness, mental and physical. If you're not, at the very least, maintaining, but hopefully we're working to move to progress mentally, physically. Physically, that's a big one. Once you get married.

• 2:04:14Jocko Willink?

  Well.

• 2:04:15Speaker 01

  You know, you got your career in order.

• 2:04:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  Face it, that complacency on the men, on the physical home front.

• 2:04:22Jocko Willink?

  By the way, if you don't have physical health, there you're in a real bad way in every way.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:29Jocko Willink?

  Mentally, spiritually, emotionally, it's all going downhill. So we want to maintain as much physical health as we can. Is that kind of where we're going with this?

• 2:04:38Speaker 01

  That is true, but I think that the, the, kind of the perception is that that hill that you're talking about go downhill. That's a big hill. It's like, it's like long. And then when you're like younger, potentially you're at the top of that hill. But the hill is so long, you can let these things slide for so long. That on the way down, you kind of know, yeah, sure. I'm letting my health kind of slide, but it's not like code red. It doesn't feel like code red for like a long time.

• 2:05:05Jocko Willink?

  Rome wasn't built in a day and it wasn't destroyed in a day either.

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 2:05:09Jocko Willink?

  They go day by day, but then one point you look up and the infrastructure is hurt.

• 2:05:13Speaker 01

  Hurting.

• 2:05:14Jocko Willink?

  And you're like. The infrastructure might not be recoverable.

• 2:05:16Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 2:05:17Jocko Willink?

  That's the problem.

• 2:05:17Speaker 01

  And, and that is kind of one of those, one of those points that I think doesn't, for some reason, doesn't dawn upon us real obviously, you know?

• 2:05:27Jocko Willink?

  No, that's because it creeps in. A little bit at a time.

• 2:05:31Speaker 01

  And but you kind of would think, right? Like on paper or whatever, that like you could get to the point, you could at least predict, okay, look, I'm going downhill. I get it. This is happening every single day, by the way. I get it, but when I get to X, Y, Z point, I know that that's not recoverable. Or I'm in super hot water or whatever. So let's, when it gets to here, let's, let's really tighten it up, really. But we don't really do that.

• 2:05:59Jocko Willink?

  Well, we hope we do.

• 2:06:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, we hope we do.

• 2:06:02Jocko Willink?

  Let's not get it, let's not let it get to the point. And something that can, something that can, that, that allows us to move, to let it slide more is you got some kind, like you're feeling a little dinged up.

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:14Jocko Willink?

  Right? Maybe those, maybe those joints are feeling a little dinged up.

• 2:06:18Speaker 01

  That's one of the things. And well, and actually that, that reminds me of what I was thinking, like, sure, yes. We like, if you work hard, work out hard, sure, you buy takes beating joints, take a beating, right? But even like daily.

• 2:06:33Speaker 01

  Doing like the same thing every day, sitting down every day, like all that kind of stuff. It jams up your joints as well. Did you know that if you sleep with your knees together on your side, it kind of like puts weird pressure like on your hips and your knees?

• 2:06:46Jocko Willink?

  I did not know that.

• 2:06:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I found out. Anyway, alright, whatever. Alright, joints, jocko fuel, there you go. We need supplementation, we're in the game, we are working out. If you're not working out, it's like, man, Brad, you gotta start working out. Have to.

• 2:07:01Jocko Willink?

  Definitely.

• 2:07:02Speaker 01

  Unless your job is...

• 2:07:05Jocko Willink?

  Even then, even if you have the most physical job you can think of, we know what you have to do, proactively, do mobility, stretch, you know what I'm saying?

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  Pro soccer player. Well, then again, no, if you're a pro athlete, you are working out, that's your whole jam. So yeah, okay, you are correct. I, I agree with that 100%. Okay, so workout. If you're not working out, we're working out now. And you will need varying levels of supplementation. Let's start from the bottom. The foundational supplementation, joints, keep that, keep those in the game. You're not getting younger. I know, you heard it before, seems obvious, but we don't act like it sometimes, that's what I'm saying. You get older.

• 2:07:41Jocko Willink?

  I like how you have full conversations just with yourself.

• 2:07:44Speaker 01

  Because I, I know the thought, that's why. You know how someone's like, um, hey, I'm not getting any younger. It's like, yeah, Brad, that literally applies to every single human being at any age. You could be just born, you're still not getting any younger, you know what I'm saying?

• 2:07:56Jocko Willink?

  I don't know though, bro.

• 2:07:58Speaker 01

  Oh, so you are getting, some people are getting.

• 2:08:01Jocko Willink?

  But like, don't you think, hey, I'm better in these following nine aspects right now than I was last year?

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 2:08:07Jocko Willink?

  I think I'm getting younger.

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  No, see, you lost me at the last part. You might be getting better, for sure. More mobile, more physical, whatever, but nonetheless, uh, what I'm saying is, sometimes these cliches are super self-explanatory, like obvious to everyone or whatever. So then I say them, then I gotta explain what I mean by them, you see what I'm saying, because they apply. See what I'm saying?

• 2:08:29Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 2:08:29Speaker 01

  Anyway, take joint warfare and super krill oil, keep your joints in the game because weak joints is worse than weak strength. You understand that?

• 2:08:37Jocko Willink?

  Yup.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  Because you don't even have the capability to get strength.

• 2:08:40Jocko Willink?

  I said I understood it. That means you didn't need to extend on any more.

• 2:08:44Speaker 01

  Oh, we're looking at Dave. I'm looking at Dave. He didn't say anything. So I figured I was compelled to explain it a little bit more.

• 2:08:50Dave Berke?

  The tape will show that I nodded my head, which is every bit the same as saying, I understand.

• 2:08:56Speaker 01

  Just your guys' words right now tells me that you don't fully understand. I'm trying to give to you guys.

• 2:09:02Jocko Willink?

  So you got joint warfare, krill oil, discipline, discipline go, vitamin D3, cold war. We got the RTD you can drink. Okay, where are you at? Dave Berke.

• 2:09:10Speaker 01

  Good deal.

• 2:09:11Jocko Willink?

  What's your flavor assessment at the current time of the cans of discipline go?

• 2:09:17Speaker 01

  Sour apple sniper.

• 2:09:18Jocko Willink?

  That's your number one?

• 2:09:18Speaker 01

  Number one.

• 2:09:19Jocko Willink?

  Hmm. Okay.

• 2:09:21Speaker 01

  Just came out.

• 2:09:21Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles, where are you at?

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  Um, I, I'm gonna be honest. I like the Jaco Palmer taste the best. But you know how you like you go in like routines. I'm on the sour apple sniper. I think maybe subconsciously. It's, I'm still in the novel phase, you know, like, oh, new flavors. See what I'm saying? But I think taste wise, Jaco Palmer edge like by a little bit.

• 2:09:45Jocko Willink?

  When is your signature flavor coming out? Good deal, Dave Berke.

• 2:09:50Dave Berke?

  It's, uh, it's next, man. So we have slapped the table. We are, we are official on the flavor.

• 2:09:55Jocko Willink?

  Did you, did you get the flavor that you liked?

• 2:09:56Dave Berke?

  We did. We did.

• 2:09:58Jocko Willink?

  And now it's production time.

• 2:09:59Dave Berke?

  It is time. The cans are ordered.

• 2:10:01Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the cans are ordered.

• 2:10:02Dave Berke?

  Official. And, uh, Be Little and I had the talk last week and I think we're, uh, we're next.

• 2:10:08Jocko Willink?

  So I actually, no, I saw the can design. Did you post the can design?

• 2:10:12Dave Berke?

  I think I reposted it from him.

• 2:10:14Jocko Willink?

  Dude, every time, like, this is like Pete's dream.

• 2:10:16Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:17Jocko Willink?

  Every time Pete gets to design a cool can, he like just, that's his, that's, he's so happy.

• 2:10:23Dave Berke?

  He was super fired up on this.

• 2:10:24Jocko Willink?

  Exactly, dude.

• 2:10:26Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:26Jocko Willink?

  He's, and probably because you were fired up.

• 2:10:29Dave Berke?

  I was fired up.

• 2:10:29Jocko Willink?

  Cause you know, he sends me stuff and I'm like, looks cool. Dude, I was, I was super excited when he sent me that stuff. I was so stoked. Bro, this is so cool. And he's like, bro, yeah. Totally. Why is Jaco such a freaking jerk?

• 2:10:42Speaker 01

  I know, bro. Yeah, I'm feeling Pete totally unknown. Cause you know, when you're fired up, you get, you know, you artistically, you're like, oh man, this one really came together. You know, there's layers in there. You show it to like your prime, primary audience and they just are like, cool, bro. Why don't we even come to you sometimes?

• 2:10:59Jocko Willink?

  Hey, warning order. You know what a warning order is? Means like, hey, we got an operation that's gonna be coming up. Pretty soon, in the southeast.

• 2:11:10Jocko Willink?

  A store called Wawa.

• 2:11:12Speaker 01

  Wawa, yeah. I hear good things.

• 2:11:13Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna be having, discipline go there. Little warning order that when it comes, go get some. We're on a little mission. Uh, milk, protein that tastes good.

• 2:11:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:11:28Jocko Willink?

  Or dessert that has protein. Yeah, I'm not sure which way you wanna describe it. Either way is good with me.

• 2:11:34Jocko Willink?

  Jaco White Tea.

• 2:11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, good, good, good, good product.

• 2:11:39Jocko Willink?

  And this stuff is also available at the vitamin shop.

• 2:11:45Jocko Willink?

  Or at originmaine.com, which is where you can also get jujitsu products such as a gi, such as a rash guard. And by the way, just don't, not, not just ugi, kinda get thegi. You can kinda get thegi that you want. The most comfortable gi ever made. Rift. Is there a more comfortable gi than Rift? It's not even in the same ballpark.

• 2:12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was funny cause my son, he's four, like I mentioned before, so he'll like just be ran, like we're not training at any place or nothing like that, but he'll randomly be like, hey.

• 2:12:21Jocko Willink?

  It's time to train.

• 2:12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, or at the very least, put on, put on my gi. I just wanna put on the gi right now. So he'll put, yeah, he'll put, he'll put it on. And I'll be like, remember Pete? Cause remember he met Pete at the vitamin shop all that? And I was like, he's the one that made this gi. So he'll be like, cool. And he'll be running around doing his thing, whatever. And then he'll say, hey, can you tell Pete, thanks for making this gi for me?

• 2:12:42Jocko Willink?

  Your kid is nice.

• 2:12:44Speaker 01

  Straight up. Oh, yeah. Very polite. Yeah.

• 2:12:47Jocko Willink?

  Alright, so we got gees, we got boots, American made boots, American made jeans. Blue jeans, right?

• 2:12:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:12:54Jocko Willink?

  You would think, you would just think, oh, blue jeans, that's an American thing, right? Blue jeans come from America. You know what? You're right and you're wrong. Blue jeans came from America. They originated in America.

• 2:13:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:13:07Jocko Willink?

  But they're not made there anymore. Unless you get Origin jeans. And then they're made in America a hundred percent. From the thread in the cotton.

• 2:13:18Speaker 01

  Yep, that's true.

• 2:13:20Jocko Willink?

  And they're sewn, the whole nine yards. So if you want to support America and you want to support this podcast. And you want to support America. Then check out originmaine.com. And I'll quote Echo here. If you see something and you like something, get something.

• 2:13:36Speaker 01

  Get something, it's true. Also, Jaco's store is called Jaco's store. So we're on the path, like I said, like we always say. So if you want to represent while on the path, we got some shirts, some hats, some hoodies, some shorts, board shorts. Some

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  other various items on there. Jacostore.com, like I said, so you know, discipline equals freedom. Good, get all these things representative of this crazy, hard, from time to time, path that we're on.

• 2:14:08Jocko Willink?

  Including the shirt that I'm wearing right now.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  Yes, hardcore recondos all day.

• 2:14:13Jocko Willink?

  You know, I don't introduce new shirts into my lineup very often.

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  Yes, it's a, it's a, it's a weave move for sure.

• 2:14:20Jocko Willink?

  So here I am. Hardcore recondo.

• 2:14:24Speaker 01

  No slack.

• 2:14:26Jocko Willink?

  Warrior kid soap, don't forget that you can get that at the Jaco's store as well. Some, some, some of that soap is for children, some of it for adults, some of it's called killer soap, some of it's called warrior kid soap. But regardless of what kind of soap you get, it will all allow you and your family to

• 2:14:44Jocko Willink?

  stately.

• 2:14:47Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to this podcast.

• 2:14:50Jocko Willink?

  If you haven't yet.

• 2:14:51Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:14:52Jocko Willink?

  Which is just crazy if you haven't yet.

• 2:14:53Speaker 01

  So the value of subscribing to a podcast. What, whatever. I'm just saying, because it's one of those things that, you know, an ongoing kind of question mark. Like, oh, you're like, yeah, you know, yeah, how valuable is saying subscribe to the podcast?

• 2:15:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:15:10Speaker 01

  This is what it's for. This is new. If you're new to the podcast.

• 2:15:13Jocko Willink?

  Also, well, you can subscribe to another podcast, which is called the Jaco Unraveling Podcast. You can subscribe to that one. It's myself and Daryl Cooper. We originally called it The Thread.

• 2:15:25Speaker 01

  See, that's valuable right there. Yeah, but that's valuable right there to be like, okay, you're listening to Jocko Podcast. You probably, you know, unless you're like brand new, the first one you ever listened to or whatever and think, think for some reason, this is like a one off and individual. Episode, then you say subscribe to this podcast, but we're listening to Jocko Podcast, but there is in fact, like you said, unraveling podcast, whole different podcast. Subscribe to that one too. Available for subscribing.

• 2:15:49Jocko Willink?

  Also, Grounded Podcast, which we are going to record another one with JP, but we didn't. Sorry. We ran out of time and Warrior Kid Podcast. I know I owe you those. I apologize. I need to work harder. We have a YouTube channel where Echo Charles makes videos. If they're short, really compact videos, then they'll have all kinds of excitement in them. If they're a long video, then there'll be no excitement in them. There'll just be people talking, which in Echo Charles's opinion is the way to do it.

• 2:16:17Speaker 01

  It's valuable.

• 2:16:18Jocko Willink?

  Everyone else doesn't think that, but it's Echo Charles's YouTube channel. That's what he, that's where he's at.

• 2:16:25Jocko Willink?

  I got a text from Brandon today and he said, hey.

• 2:16:29Speaker 01

  Who? Pickwer?

• 2:16:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And he, he said something along the lines of, you know, trooper since day one. If we don't have explosions, if that's not part of the program, something's wrong.

• 2:16:42Jocko Willink?

  There's another vote.

• 2:16:43Speaker 01

  Alright, good tip.

• 2:16:45Jocko Willink?

  Just do it one time, see if anybody, you know, gets mad, whatever.

• 2:16:50Jocko Willink?

  So YouTube channel, subscribe to it.

• 2:16:53Speaker 01

  Psychological Warfare. An album, a Jaco album with Jaco traps, helping you through moments of weakness, straight up. When they come about, you just boom, you listen to that, boom, no weakness, no moment.

• 2:17:05Jocko Willink?

  And also, we got psychological, we got flip side canvas, sorry. Flipsidecanvas.com Dakota Meyer, making cool things for you to hang on your wall. Also got some books. We got a book called The Code. Dave Burke, what do you got about the code?

• 2:17:22Dave Berke?

  Still using the code every day. I am, I still get more direct messages on social media about that than anything else. Because it was this idea of like, hey, we were just having this conversation. You have to look at the, you want to not be complacent? You want to keep, you have to do it every single day, every single day.

• 2:17:45Jocko Willink?

  I thought what you were gonna say is, we also talked about, you gotta know where you are. This book, The Code, The Evaluation of Protocols, actually allows you to assess where you are. How can you move if you don't know where you are? The answer is you can't. The Code, The Evaluation of Protocols, written by Jocko Willink, Dave Burke, and Sarah Armstrong.

• 2:18:04Speaker 01

  You know what's funny about that, The Code, like, elements from this book are now in my everyday life. Like, my whole, you remember how it feels like back in the day, but let's just face it. Kind of the current, you know how you like, label your experience from one to 10, right? Give it a score of one to 10, now it's one to five.

• 2:18:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it changed your whole.

• 2:18:23Speaker 01

  Yep, five is like the unattainable perfection, you know, four is like your general perfection, you know?

• 2:18:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you gotta be careful with that one, though.

• 2:18:31Speaker 01

  The fours?

• 2:18:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cuz if your, if your wife is like, hey, how do I look tonight in this dress? And you're like, oh, you're a five.

• 2:18:38Jocko Willink?

  What you mean is unattainable perfection.

• 2:18:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:18:41Jocko Willink?

  What you get is slapped.

• 2:18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, here's the thing. When you get real used to this evaluation system, I'll get slapped. I gotta, I gotta stay true to the code. Got it.

• 2:18:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:18:51Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. You know, your kids are doing somersaults or whatever. They're getting a one, two, three or four.

• 2:18:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:56Speaker 01

  Maybe sometimes five, if it's perfect. But I'm just saying the whole rating system gets shifted down to this one now.

• 2:19:02Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 2:19:02Speaker 01

  And the same standard as well, like fives. Like you'll all even text like, hey, just threw up a four. If I, Dave, if I text you, hey, I just threw up a four, right? You know exactly what I'm talking about.

• 2:19:13Jocko Willink?

  Impressive.

• 2:19:14Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying? I'm just saying this code is life now.

• 2:19:17Jocko Willink?

  Also have Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual, Way of the Warrior Kid One, Two and Three, Mikey and the Dragons, Discipline and Freedom Field Manual, and Extreme Ownership and the Decadent Leadership. We have a leadership consultancy called Echelon Front, where we work with companies. Dave, what are you spearheading right now?

• 2:19:38Dave Berke?

  I think I'm, we are working with like 20 different companies on long range programs right now. I think everyone from a different sector, a different place in the market. And you said something a minute ago. It's the same exact thing with every single company. But everything is different because they're all different and not one single thing about it is boring. I, every, I'm, my wife would tell you that I repeat myself a thousand times a day. I have not once gotten tired of it. And companies that working with us, the coolest thing about it is despite all the stuff going on in the world right now, they are getting better and it is so awesome to be a part of that. Watch that happen.

• 2:20:18Jocko Willink?

  So if you want that, go to echelonfront.com. You can check out our consultancy. We also have an online training platform to make you a better leader. Not just through static training, which is there. You can get some fundamentals reinforced, but you can also just sit there and ask me a question. You can come to a live interaction. I will be sitting there on my computer. You'll be on your computer and you can ask me, hey, Jaco, here's the situation that I'm going through. I will answer it. You can talk to Dave, you can talk to Leif, you can talk to JP, you can talk to anyone on the Echelon Front team. So go to efonline.com if you want to hang out and talk. We also have the muster, which is a leadership conference.

• 2:21:03Jocko Willink?

  Two out of three have been canceled this year. The next one is Dallas, Texas, December 3rd and 4th. Probably going to be social distancing. So we have less seats and people from Orlando and, and Phoenix are coming to Dallas. So it's going to sell out even quicker than normal. Extremeownership.com if you want to come to that. We have EF Overwatch. You heard on podcast, the last podcast, 244. Mike Sorelli, George Randall. This is Echelon Fronts, taking people from the military that have leadership experience and placing them into your civilian organization to help you bring your team into the winning category.

• 2:21:48Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? If you're already winning, it will help you win harder. And AmericasMightyWarriors.org. That is Mama Lee. That is Mark Lee's mom. If you want to support military personnel, if you want to support the families of military personnel, including Gold Star families around the world, you go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. You can donate or you can get involved. Mama Lee, bless her heart. That is her mission and she is driving it.

• 2:22:23Jocko Willink?

  And if you need more, if you can't live without some more of my thought threatening theories, or you'd like to hear some of Echo's obtuse opinions, or maybe you'd just like to hear one more of Dave's enthusiastic allegories, then you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. Dave is at David R. Burke, B E R K E. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And all the troops that take these combat lessons and apply them to your present duty to protect our right to self determination in the world.

• 2:23:09Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for your service and to the police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and Border Patrol and Secret Service and all the other first responders out there, thank you for doing what you do every day to keep us safe when we need it the most. And to everyone else out there, you know, you hear these stories and you hear these theories and you hear these principles and there's no rocket science to them, there's no mystery.

• 2:23:42Jocko Willink?

  It's the same thing, it's discipline, it's action, it's communication, it's follow-through, it's planning, you know what to do.

• 2:23:52Jocko Willink?

  You know what leads to victory in combat and therefore you know what leads to victory in business and you know what leads to victory in life. Don't hesitate, don't wait, now is the time to implement.

• 2:24:10Jocko Willink?

  So go out there and get after it. And until next time, this is Dave and Echo and Jaco. Out.