‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Hype With Mallory Rubin. Plus, Doug Dulgarian of They Are Gutting a Body of Water.

Chris is joined by Mallory Rubin to talk about the trailer for the upcoming 'Game of Thrones' series ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ and why she’s so excited for the ‘Task’ finale (3:04). Later, he’s joined by frontman Doug Dulgarian of indie rock band They Are Gutting a Body of Water to talk about their brand-new album, ‘LOTTO’; what makes it so distinctively Philly; the stories behind some of Chris’s favorite tracks; and more (39:15). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Click here to stream 'LOTTO' Hosts: Chris Ryan Guests: Mallory Rubin and Doug Dulgarian Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producers: Jon Jones Additional Video Supervision: Michael Delgado Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:25Speaker 01

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• 1:30Speaker 03

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• 1:59Speaker 04

  I need sports staff to clear the room.

• 2:02Speaker 05

  Stand up and walk now.

• 2:07Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio, a podcaster of the Seven Kingdoms, it's Mallory Rubin.

• 2:20Speaker 07

  Thrill of my life to be here with you to do some Baltimore Delco accent comparisons.

• 2:25Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Mal, thank you so much for doing this with me today. We're gonna talk a little bit about Task. We're gonna talk a little bit about A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, the new Game of Thrones universe show, coming early next year on the HBO service.

• 2:37Speaker 07

  January 18th.

• 2:38Chris Ryan?

  By the way, also on this episode today is my interview with Doug Dulgarian from the band. They are gutting a body of water, which is one of my favorite bands. And they put out a record today, tonight, called Lotto, which I hope everybody listens to. I really love talking to Doug. It does get pretty deep into underground rock references.

• 2:58Speaker 07

  Oh, okay.

• 2:59Chris Ryan?

  But he was awesome. And I hope people check out the record and check out the interview. I'll do a little bit of an intro for that later.

• 3:05Speaker 07

  Fantastic.

• 3:05Chris Ryan?

  Mal, it's great to see you.

• 3:06Speaker 07

  Great to see you, man.

• 3:07Chris Ryan?

  You're splendid with your Mediterranean tan. Must be nice.

• 3:10Speaker 07

  Have a bit of a peeling sunburn, you know?

• 3:12Chris Ryan?

  Do you really?

• 3:13Speaker 07

  Yeah, sure.

• 3:14Chris Ryan?

  I gotta admit, when you were like, "Come in and see my tan" yesterday, I expected a little bit more.

• 3:18Speaker 07

  I did not say, "Come in and see my tan." I said, "Will you be in?"

• 3:21Chris Ryan?

  Should I check the text?

• 3:22Speaker 07

  "Will you be in?" I had to make sure someone sees my tan. I have known you for 12 years, 13 years?

• 3:29Chris Ryan?

  Since 2012.

• 3:30Speaker 07

  12 years, 13 years. And I don't think you've seen me with anything we could even pretend was a tan, once, in that time. So I got it-

• 3:38Chris Ryan?

  Did you have a tan when you got back from your wedding, right?

• 3:40Speaker 07

  I don't think so.

• 3:42Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:43Speaker 07

  Honestly, no.

• 3:44Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:45Speaker 07

  Maybe? I don't think so. I've, that's all buried.

• 3:48Chris Ryan?

  I hope people are enjoying this. It's great to have you here.

• 3:51Speaker 07

  Great to be here, man. You know, this is my favorite podcast. It is. And I don't mind saying it. We're not supposed to have favorites, but I do. And it has always been The Watch, and it remains The Watch. That's me time when I get to listen to The Watch. I told you that one of the things I do when I travel, as you know, is listen, I download a bunch of episodes of The Watch, and I listen to them on the plane. And you guys might be saying, "Well, if The Watch is your favorite podcast, how could you have anything left to listen to?" Well, I'm not always current on the shows you're covering. That might come up today.

• 4:23Chris Ryan?

  This is our cross to bear.

• 4:24Speaker 07

  But then I bank them. They're all there for me. If a plane goes down and I'm on it, I want your voice to be the last I hear.

• 4:30Chris Ryan?

  I wonder if that is like the, oh, there's a baby on this plane. So they won't go down because why would God take an innocent baby from the world?

• 4:38Speaker 07

  So you really have been reading about spirituality?

• 4:40Chris Ryan?

  Or like if there's a famous person and you're just like, God, there's no way. You know, if Julia Roberts is on this plane, like that's not going to be her end. So I'm safe on this flight.

• 4:48Speaker 07

  If someone's listening to the watch.

• 4:49Chris Ryan?

  If somebody's listening to the watch. If Greenwald is like minute three of monologue, you know, like it's no way. There's just no way this plane's going anywhere but to the airport. I wanted to have you on because like.

• 5:02Speaker 07

  Tell me why.

• 5:03Chris Ryan?

  I just don't think you've had a chance to really comment on a Night of the Seven Kingdoms yet.

• 5:08Chris Ryan?

  For those who don't know, Mal and Joe did a three hour podcast about a two and a half minute long trailer.

• 5:14Speaker 07

  Okay, let me do some real time fact checking on what appears to be a real time intervention.

• 5:20Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 5:20Speaker 07

  As you, as you primed me for a mere moments ago. Two hours and 46 minutes, not three hours. You're an editor. You should be precise.

• 5:27Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 5:29Speaker 07

  There was some opening banter. You love some opening banter, so you should support that. Then we did a brief New York Comic Con news roundup.

• 5:38Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 5:39Speaker 07

  So that some of the runtime went to that.

• 5:42Speaker 07

  Then we did about two hours.

• 5:44Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 5:44Speaker 07

  Of spoiler free trailer talk. And then there was a book corner spoiler full talk, which, uh, you know, the runtime builds because we're being so thoughtful about the listeners and want to make sure that the spoilers are all quadrant off in a safe marked space. So it's really for you that the pod is two hours and 46 minutes.

• 6:05Chris Ryan?

  I watched this trailer and.

• 6:08Speaker 07

  And loved it.

• 6:08Chris Ryan?

  I, you know, but I.

• 6:09Speaker 07

  Did you?

• 6:10Chris Ryan?

  I don't know any, I didn't read these novellas as I have not read a single word that George Martin has ever written.

• 6:15Speaker 07

  No, you've just read a lot of Wiki entries.

• 6:17Chris Ryan?

  A lot of, a lot of Song of Ice and Fire opedia. But I gotta admit, I did feel.

• 6:26Chris Ryan?

  I did feel some like

• 6:27Speaker 07

  Let's go.

• 6:28Chris Ryan?

  Some butterflies, like

• 6:29Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 6:29Chris Ryan?

  There's something about um this show's, at least this presentation, and this comes from Ira Parker

• 6:36Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 6:36Chris Ryan?

  And George R R Martin, pretty deeply involved in this one.

• 6:38Speaker 07

  George R R Martin is happy to tell everybody, the assembled at New York Comic Con and anybody else, that he's seen the six episodes, he loves them, and that they're very faithful to the book. The sub tweets at House of the Dragon are robust, I would say.

• 6:52Chris Ryan?

  But there's a lot to be fired up about.

• 6:55Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:55Chris Ryan?

  First of all, I've banged this drum a lot. There has been a sad turn after, you know, during COVID and afterwards with, in terms of TV production, where I think you can openly see whether it's restrictions or like, it's actually just like the cost involved in having lots of people on set and having extras and having like, building out a world with like, human faces.

• 7:18Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 7:19Chris Ryan?

  I think you could kind of see like, just from the shots of like, the villages and stuff like that in this trailer, that it looks like we are returning to kind of like, that huge tapestry that Game of Thrones at its early season best

• 7:31Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 7:32Chris Ryan?

  Was able to build where you're just like, look at that guy, look at that guy, like, what's he doing back there? So that was really neat, and I want to talk to you about a couple of other things I've heard about this.

• 7:40Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 7:41Chris Ryan?

  So the show comes from Ira Parker, who, give me a little bit about him. Does he?

• 7:45Speaker 07

  So he's worked on House of the Dragon, obviously, I think one of the things that, so Joe and I talked about this quite a bit, our long trailer breakdown, but one of the things, let me pan even further back for just a second. How long did you say we guys?

• 7:57Chris Ryan?

  Dolly, how? It's okay, go ahead.

• 7:59Speaker 07

  So, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, just genuinely a quick little bit of context here. A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, this is the adaptation of the Duncan, Tales of Duncan Egg novellas, also packaged together and called A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.

• 8:13Chris Ryan?

  I'm on year 10 of pretending like I know who those guys are, yeah.

• 8:16Speaker 07

  You're about to, buddy.

• 8:17Chris Ryan?

  I know.

• 8:17Speaker 07

  You're fucking about to. So, currently, to date, there are, stop me if you've heard this before, this is an unfinished text. It is an in-progress story. There are three novellas that have been published, but promises of more to come.

• 8:32Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 8:32Speaker 07

  Okay?

• 8:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Speaker 07

  So, that's the only, like, the only bit of cold water I'll put on this is like, I do have some questions about how far they will go on their own versus like, what the odds are of George, who has said he'll return to these novellas after he finishes Winds of Winter, ripping off some more tales. But, the novellas are

• 8:55Speaker 07

  Sublime, like they are delightful.

• 8:57Chris Ryan?

  Are they your favorite pieces of Martin writing?

• 9:00Speaker 07

  Hmm, no, but they are among my favorites. I would not say they're, it's like absolutely number one, top of the list, but I love all three of them. The first one, The Hedge Knight, which season one is adapting, season one of this television show, is like a masterpiece.

• 9:13Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 9:14Speaker 07

  It is so full of charm and intimacy. I love hearing you say that you felt like we were back in like the, the, the kind of sprawling scope and majesty of the realm. I think one of the great things about this novella and this season of TV is a tourney as a setting allows you to do both things at once. You're in one place.

• 9:35Chris Ryan?

  Tournament.

• 9:35Speaker 07

  Tournament, yes. You're in one place, you are rooted with this new set of characters, but because it's a tourney, there's a joust who's going to challenge the champions.

• 9:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:43Speaker 07

  So many people can be there. You can see all those familiar sigils. Oh, is that, I'm, I'm a Game of Thrones fan, I'm watching this trailer. Is that the crowned stag of House Baratheon? It is, okay, right? But also like who are Duncan Egg, as you said. Now, some people will know the answer to that, some people won't, and I think it's going to be a very welcoming space for anybody, no matter what your relationship is to the story or the characters. If you're like, I've never read any Song of Ice and Fire, could I start? And we got this mailbag question on House of R. This is a three hour read. It is the easiest.

• 10:15Chris Ryan?

  So you say.

• 10:16Speaker 07

  So, so an audiobook time says, so a Kindle read estimate time says.

• 10:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I'm just being like, with my shattered attention span as I.

• 10:25Speaker 07

  Dude, you've been mainlining the spiritual texts.

• 10:28Chris Ryan?

  I have been.

• 10:28Speaker 07

  You're ready for this.

• 10:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I am.

• 10:29Speaker 07

  Anyway, I think as always with Thrones, there are dark elements to this and heavy elements to this, but there is quite a bit about it that is heartening and affirming, and I think it is a great time for this show. And while it is maybe not the like zeitgeist animating, every single person alive is definitely going to watch this on Sunday night, I, I am really hopeful that the people who do tune in will love it.

• 10:49Chris Ryan?

  Okay, so six episodes.

• 10:51Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 10:51Chris Ryan?

  Three of them directed by Owen Harris or four directed by Owen Harris?

• 10:54Speaker 07

  And they're half an hour.

• 10:55Chris Ryan?

  And Sarah Dina Smith does the others, uh, and they're half an hour.

• 10:59Speaker 07

  What do you, Mr. TV, make of that?

• 11:01Chris Ryan?

  I think this is an ingenious idea by. HBO by Martin Industries by like.

• 11:08Speaker 07

  Okay, so your reaction was not, why isn't this a movie? It was, this is smart.

• 11:11Chris Ryan?

  My reaction was, this is the perfect time and the perfect like way to see if you can still, obviously like people have been anticipating these, this adaptation of these novellas for a long time. But the execution of it is like such a without, with nothing critical about House of the Dragon, such an anecdote to like the heaviness of House of the Dragon. And honestly, eight years ago or whatever, I probably would have rolled my eyes when you told me that he hasn't finished Duncan Egg and that like, we don't really know where this show is gonna go. Truly, who cares? Hopefully we'll all be alive in four years.

• 11:48Speaker 07

  And I should say, we do know many things because there are things in the wider history that are established. It's a lot of like, I have tales to flesh out along the way.

• 11:56Chris Ryan?

  But if I had a criticism of House of the Dragon, it's that I am weak and I read What Happens.

• 12:03Speaker 07

  You did.

• 12:03Chris Ryan?

  And also like, it's kind of playing out the way, you know, you, it feels like a fixed text when you're watching it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, I think that there's like, it's encumbered a little bit by its history, uh, by the history of the realm and stuff. And like telling all these like, this massive story of, of a group of people who largely stand in rooms when they're not on top of dragons.

• 12:26Speaker 07

  Right.

• 12:26Chris Ryan?

  And so it's become, I think it's like, the idea of having something that is just almost like a little bit more alive and a little bit more free. And then, yes, like, the time invested in this is going to be enough so that they can start to say like, okay, so like, what could we do with this franchise?

• 12:43Speaker 07

  Right.

• 12:44Chris Ryan?

  And I think that we got through the Marvel wars. And I don't even know, like, are they gonna keep making TV shows of Marvel stuff? Like, I seriously can't tell. Like, they have Wonder Man on the slate.

• 12:57Speaker 07

  Wonder Man's coming, the Vision show is coming.

• 13:00Chris Ryan?

  That's like the end of the Vision Agatha thing. And then maybe you could convince me that, you know, when X-Men comes,

• 13:07Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 13:07Chris Ryan?

  there's just gonna be too much stuff to not do a Wolverine show or not do a whatever show.

• 13:12Speaker 07

  Another season of X-Men 97 coming, obviously a different continuity, but still.

• 13:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. But if you wanna keep this going as like a viable.

• 13:22Chris Ryan?

  Vein to mine.

• 13:24Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 13:24Chris Ryan?

  You've gotta have different, different kinds of looks for people.

• 13:29Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 13:29Chris Ryan?

  And different entry points.

• 13:30Speaker 07

  Absolutely.

• 13:31Chris Ryan?

  And I think like having a six episode, 30 minute, hey, it's not that much of an investment. You don't know these people, but you will.

• 13:37Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 13:37Chris Ryan?

  Kind of thing is really, really smart.

• 13:39Speaker 07

  I agree, and I think that there is something really pleasing and like that I anticipate a lot about a Thrones television show that people can calibrate their relationship to. Right? So if you decide that all you want to do is spend 30 minutes a week for six weeks, for a month and a half, checking it out, I think you'll probably have a pretty good time. But if you decide that you want to pick up the novellas or read The World of Ice and Fire to learn about the, this stretch of, of Targaryen rule or anything else, it is such a tantalizing amuse-bouche to then like present itself as an on-ramp into more.

• 14:23Speaker 07

  I've been interested in, so I didn't actually answer, shockingly, I didn't actually answer your question, I just started talking, but your question about Ira Parker, one of the things that really struck me watching the, the stream of the, the Comic Con panel and just like reading some of his interview quotes so far and seeing how he's talking about the show is this, two things. One, he clearly loves the story.

• 14:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:45Speaker 07

  Right? And like, I feel like it can be kind of corny to point that out or say that, but it is important. You mentioned the MCU. It's like, how many times have all of us over the years talked about like, one of the reasons it worked from, I mean, there are a million, read John's book, right? But among them was like, Iron Man, which would never have been the choice if not for rights control elsewhere and like.

• 15:08Chris Ryan?

  Happy accidents.

• 15:09Speaker 07

  A focus group responding to toys and stuff was that the people who were making that first Iron Man movie like loved and understood the character. When you hear Ira Parker talk about these characters, you're like, this guy loves and understands the characters. And so whatever version the show takes from there, I believe, based on what we've seen so far, I'm confident it will be rooted in like a core understanding of why that relationship between Dunk and Egg is a meaningful one to fans of the world. I wanted to ask you, though, the other Ira Parker thing that stood out to me, I wanted to ask you what you'd make of this, is that he is, um, so the marketing material is like Tall Tale that became Legend, right?

• 15:47Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:48Speaker 07

  Hundred years before Game of Thrones. They're really trying to root us. This is between the two television shows. And the other thing that they're really leaning into with the timeline and where we are on the timeline is no magic.

• 16:00Chris Ryan?

  Yep.

• 16:01Speaker 07

  And I was curious what you made of that because like, I of course had a little bit of a, well, well, actually, well, wait, well, what does this mean about X, Y, and Z that I won't invoke here and spoil for people?

• 16:12Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 16:13Speaker 07

  But I do see the wisdom of, and I, I love magic and I love fantasy stories.

• 16:16Chris Ryan?

  It's like a Star Wars show without the Force. It's like, I think that there is a huge contingent of people who are like, I think, I think for the same reason why, I, I don't know, but I, I'm hoping that there are no dragons in this show. I think the dragons are supposed to be gone by now, right?

• 16:30Speaker 07

  Correct. So then that's the thing is like, I, I don't think, I have not perceived this at all as like, uh, there's no magic, so don't worry, this isn't like nerdy fantasy stuff, which I don't think is the, the vibe of the comments, and I would not want that to be the vibe of the comments. I think it's like, we're trying to, uh, convey and establish where we are in the history of the realm, and this is going to be the essence as a result. This kind of like Arthurian swords and shields.

• 16:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 07

  Like, I am on an adventure and seeking to discover something about who I am and what I believe in, right? So I was wondering if you found that, or personally compelling, but also thought that that would be like, a, and I quite enjoy House of the Dragon, but in the era of like, we're waiting three years between seasons, because we have so many CGI dragons, to like, make sure we can get up to snuff before we're ready to put another season out in front of you?

• 17:21Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 17:22Speaker 07

  If this was going to feel like a really like welcoming warm bath to people, like, maybe we get one of these every like 12 to 18 months.

• 17:27Chris Ryan?

  That would be amazing if this was the Slow Horses of the Game of Thrones universe.

• 17:31Speaker 07

  Get Jackson Lamb in A Night of the Seven Kingdoms immediately. I need his commentary on the joust. He would not enter the list, but I think he would sit there and whatever the Ashford Meadow version of like, I've, I'm slurping on some noodles is, while he's judging all of the champions and challengers, sign me up.

• 17:49Chris Ryan?

  I think that there's probably an E, like a, a one way to look at this would be like, you know, And this is the position Andy and I often take on Star Wars stuff, which is that like Andor kind of scratched the itch that we had had for 30, 40 years and that we don't need anything else and we never, it's not about the Force. And it's not to some extent, but I think when I think about what Andor did so well, and what I'm excited about, for instance, for this show, and what was really great about Game of Thrones when it started is like, yeah, it had kings and princesses and stuff like that and dragons. But it also had people from nowhere becoming something. And there was like an arc to it. And sometimes when I think

• 18:34Chris Ryan?

  shows or movies or whatever, when you're relying on, now, she's already the queen, or she already has dragons, or she, like, we come in and this person already has the Force and is a Jedi Master. There's just like a little bit less of a runway to go on with the characters. It doesn't feel earned for you as a viewer because this person is already endowed with everything. It's like, I like Luke Skywalker as a bratty teenager looking up at two moons and like being like, I want to get out of here.

• 19:06Speaker 07

  Binary sunsets is like, you could still argue to this day. It's the single best moment in, you know, in the history of like cinema. And the score kicks in and he's looking and he's longing. I agree. I think so.

• 19:17Chris Ryan?

  So sending people on a journey rather than having them already be at the seat of power is kind of interesting to me.

• 19:22Speaker 07

  So, okay, I have two thoughts in response to that. One, I think that if that is something you are looking forward to and craving, there's a chance this is your favorite bit of Thrones yet. I think that's probable. That's in play. Again, I haven't seen the show, so I don't know if it's good, but like.

• 19:42Chris Ryan?

  My favorite run of Thrones is probably that period from, spoilers for Game of Thrones.

• 19:49Speaker 07

  I think it's fine.

• 19:50Chris Ryan?

  From, it's basically post-Ned dying. And it's like the.

• 19:54Speaker 07

  Damn, that was a big spoiler.

• 19:55Chris Ryan?

  The chaos that kind of ensues from there, and the rise up of, rise and fall of Rob, of Jon, of Littlefinger to some extent, Joffrey coming in, and just like all of the like. People who are outside of power rushing in to take it.

• 20:13Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 20:14Chris Ryan?

  That was my favorite period of Game of Thrones. So I'm excited about about some just random two dudes at a tournament. I'm sure they're not that random.

• 20:22Speaker 07

  This is my second point, which is I my only bit of because there's also been a lot of like we're rooted in Dunk's perspective, we're on the ground.

• 20:30Chris Ryan?

  And Dunk is the kid or the big guy?

• 20:31Speaker 07

  Egg is the kid.

• 20:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 20:33Speaker 07

  Dunk is Sir Duncan the Tall.

• 20:35Chris Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 20:35Speaker 07

  Um, you know, there's been a lot of like, we're rooted on the on the on the ground with the people of the realm, the exact thing that you're describing. And like, the royals are present. You know, you can see in the trailer, you can see the Targaryen banners.

• 20:49Chris Ryan?

  There's a blonde kid in it.

• 20:50Speaker 07

  But I was about to say, the trailer debut of, you know, Night Night Country fans rise, seeing Finn Bennett, Arian Brightflame, Arian Targaryen.

• 21:03Chris Ryan?

  Okay, his name is Arian?

• 21:04Speaker 07

  His name is Arian. Arian Targaryen, the Bright Prince, Arian Brightflame, one of my most anticipated pages of screen.

• 21:13Chris Ryan?

  Is he the current Secretary of State in the United States of America?

• 21:16Speaker 07

  He's a piece of work, so I'm really looking forward to that character. One of my other favorite characters from the story who's we don't we you can glimpse him in the trailer, he's not prominently featured in the trailer, but he is mentioned in that funny like, are you Baelor Targaryen? No, then get the fuck out of the way moment. The royals are the royal, the ruling family is here. Lionel Baratheon, the laughing storm is here, like lords and ladies and people of power are in the story. And I don't want to like overcorrect in in framing it as like, we're only hanging out with like, people who are just mainlining bowls of brown and flea bottom. That's like, not the case. But the thing that you're describing and that journey and that arc and that spirit of like, possibility and discovery. I mean,

• 22:00Speaker 07

  I, you know, I would, I would, I would argue, and I know you would agree that like, that can be very present in the away to my the chosen one kind of story as well. But it is different. It's a different flavor. And that is certainly the flavor here. But like, yeah, you will see the Targaryens in the story and people should expect that.

• 22:16Chris Ryan?

  It's Thursday now. We had the bridge from Game of Thrones and George R R Martin to the next topic is Fabian Frankel, you know, obviously Sir Cristo Cole.

• 22:26Speaker 07

  With us always.

• 22:27Chris Ryan?

  In House of Dragon. They just finished shooting season three, I think.

• 22:31Speaker 07

  I mean, we're gonna get two Thrones shows next year.

• 22:33Chris Ryan?

  When's the last time that's happened? Has that ever happened?

• 22:35Speaker 07

  No. Are you excited to do Talk the Thrones two times in one year? You ready?

• 22:40Chris Ryan?

  I'm way more excited about Dunkin' Egg. I mean, I love working with you guys, but I would be way more excited about doing-

• 22:47Speaker 07

  You could've just said, "Yes, I can't wait to spend time with you guys."

• 22:49Chris Ryan?

  Yes, I can't wait to spend time with you, yes.

• 22:50Speaker 07

  But that wasn't what you said. Was it?

• 22:55Chris Ryan?

  You are current on task.

• 22:57Speaker 07

  Yes, I am.

• 22:58Chris Ryan?

  As we head into the finale.

• 22:59Speaker 07

  I am. I-

• 23:01Chris Ryan?

  Have you gotten to talk about it? Like, what do you- do you like it? Do you love it?

• 23:04Speaker 07

  I think it's fucking amazing. It's one of my, like, probably three favorite shows of the year. I've loved listening to- loved listening to you and Andy talk about it. And I've loved watching the show. I'm pretty despondent that it's about to end.

• 23:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:16Speaker 07

  I am current through six. I got back from my travels and I was a couple of episodes behind. And it was the first thing on my to-do list. I mean, I had some work to catch up on. But on my television to-do list, catching up on task. I was like, "This is the most important thing."

• 23:29Chris Ryan?

  So you did five and six when you got back?

• 23:30Speaker 07

  Yes, and, boy.

• 23:32Chris Ryan?

  Well, it was a remission. So spoilers up until and through six. Although if you're listening to the watch, you're probably, like, on Task Island with us.

• 23:38Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 23:40Chris Ryan?

  I don't- I don't even know where to start. Let's talk about Fabian. Because I- did you think he had this in him?

• 23:45Speaker 07

  Yeah, because I think, unlike Andy, I think he's great on House of the Dragon.

• 23:51Speaker 07

  You know, obviously, we're big- we're big Kristen Cole heads here.

• 23:54Chris Ryan?

  It's a specific part, yeah.

• 23:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, for sure. Now, have I been waiting for Grasso to take out a sword and start polishing it with a lemon? I have.

• 24:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 24:02Speaker 07

  You know, have I found myself in moments saying, "Will we get a spoiler for House of the Dragon?" "You wish you'd spoil it for Thrones, I'll issue a more recent spoiler for House of the Dragon." You know, are we gonna get any, like, diving into the royal muff a- a- a- a la Kristen and Alicent? Not so, you know, more, uh, restraint.

• 24:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, sell it.

• 24:22Speaker 07

  From Grasso. I think that the performance has been great. I think the character is a highlight of the show, Grasso and Lizzie. Same for me as for you, just my- I mean, obviously, like, it's- it feels a little weird to say anything other than, like, the Robbie Tom scenes are actually the number one highlight of the show.

• 24:37Chris Ryan?

  There's only one of them, though, really.

• 24:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, but like- Something about that Lizzie Grasso, because that was what we were anticipating was Tom and Robbie, right, was Ruffalo and Pelfrey. And so the absolute out of nowhere wallop of watching what developed in real time between Grasso and Lizzie is like the delight of the show to me. And Maeve too, like the things that I wasn't prepared for the way I was, like, you know, I thought Pelfrey on Ozark, that that was one of the performances of like the decade. So I was thrilled to have him back on our lives in the show. And I love Ruffalo, he's like an all time fave of mine. So, and I loved Mare of Easttown. So I was really looking forward to the show. And I've not been disappointed with any of the things that I was anticipating. But the stuff that I had no real reason to like be looking forward to as much has just

• 25:21Speaker 07

  blown me away. It's been sensational. And like, I know I said this, I really have loved listening to you guys talk about it. Like, I think your conversations have been beautiful. And the show is beautiful.

• 25:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's like, it's hard to like, I mean, we laugh about it and like, we joke about it, but it's definitely moved me pretty deeply. So it's like, it's, it's sort of like Andy and I have to like, kind of go into this sort of tender zone when we talk about it. But yeah, I think that it was just really surprising for me. I think I really did go into it. And I should have known better because Mare's not like this. Mare's like, you know, Winslet and Gene Smart sitting around and talking to the priest and like the kid having the band. And like, there's so much life in Mare. It's, it's not surprising that this is the same way. But like, I just kind of thought like, oh yeah, it's going to be way more about like, moving drugs in Philly and like cops chasing who's hitting

• 26:16Chris Ryan?

  these stash houses. The mystery of this show is over like, very fast. You know, like, I think that when they take Sam home in the first episode, and it becomes obvious that it's like, Sam is like this vessel of hope for every person who gets their hands on him throughout this series. So it's been, that's not something I thought I was gonna get. Like, I didn't think about like, oh my god, this is about like, building or rebuilding family and, and all this other stuff.

• 26:48Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think like, um, I agree. I think that the fact that Robbie died in the penultimate episode is, if you just pan back and look at like, okay, what might the flow of this season be? Not surprising. But in terms of the reality that it presents to us of like, the show is gonna conclude by being, on the one hand, plot wise, about something different than we thought the show was gonna be like, uh, driving toward. But in terms of its theme and its core focus, that that somehow heightened and further unlocked the treatise that, that, that the show is actually exploring, which like, as you guys have beautifully discussed,

• 27:28Speaker 07

  you know, this is a show about obviously like, loss and grief and remorse and longing. But the thing that I, I think that it's ultimately about is like, this is a show about grace.

• 27:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:40Speaker 07

  And what grace are you able to find for other people and grant to other people? But like, really, what are you able to grant to yourself?

• 27:47Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 27:48Speaker 07

  And that is like, an incredible thing to present, I think, quite subtly and in a very nuanced fashion, but still inside of like, a pretty propulsive, action-oriented tale. And like, the majesty and splendor of the vistas and the locations and the fact that you can be in somebody's like, beat up living room, or at this astonishing quarry, or a booth at a diner, or in somebody's car with a duffel bag on their lap, or a person's body on their lap. And like, all of them are equally compelling to watch, is incredible. And like,

• 28:28Speaker 07

  The Robbie Shelley moment is, and just that sequence is really to me emblematic of like the genius of the show.

• 28:37Chris Ryan?

  Because it's just like, there's no characters wasted.

• 28:39Speaker 07

  Yeah, no characters wasted.

• 28:40Chris Ryan?

  Shelley could just be like this background person who's like, Ray, don't do it, you know, like, and instead.

• 28:45Speaker 07

  Good accent work.

• 28:45Chris Ryan?

  Thanks. And then instead, it's like.

• 28:47Speaker 07

  Plays a crucial pivotal role.

• 28:48Chris Ryan?

  And, and, and like, but it's almost, it, it screws around a little bit with the cliche of like, I'm a good person. And Robbie's like, oh my God, I'm a good person. Like, what are you talking about?

• 28:58Speaker 07

  And, and that's the thing, right? It's like, okay, on the one hand, it would not be a good faith argument to say, what does it really matter in terms of the plot? Obviously, that's like hugely consequential in terms of the plot and everything that's really unfolding with Freddy and with the dark arts and with Robbie and with his plan and the, the sacrifice and the money that'll go to Maeve. Like, all of that is carefully plotted and structured and paced and dispersed to us and the characters alike. But in terms of the good person thing, why would Robbie, who's like, who the fuck are you? And like, why would I listen to you? And why would I believe you for a second? Why are these the choices? This is also a show about, show about grace and forgiveness and loss, but choice as well. And like, so

• 29:40Speaker 07

  what ultimately leads Robbie to like, opt into this? Is it crazy Robbie, always trying to figure out a way to make his life better and then realizes he's run out of, of opportunity to do that? So it has to be make someone else's life better? Or is it?

• 29:55Chris Ryan?

  In retrospect, it's like Robbie's knows he's dead from the second the cliff thing goes wrong.

• 30:00Speaker 07

  And also though, I like to think about like, he's looking at Shelley and saying, okay, and this is what happens with, in a much more centered and like in the spotlight way at the heart of the show with Tom and Robbie, but also in a really quiet way in the corner, happens with Robbie and Shelley is like, the only common ground that these characters have with each other is, I really wish I had a chance to like, do something better for my family than I did before.

• 30:24Chris Ryan?

  I think he believes Shelley does and he knows he doesn't. But he's like, the only person who can help me is somebody as desperate as I am. Cause Maeve is like, what the fuck are you talking about? When he's like, let's go to Canada. You know, like, and honestly, like, they probably could have gone to Canada just with the money that they had. Like, they may get chased and it may be dangerous and all that. But like, his thing about like, I need this money to set us up for whatever, like this island where there's no trash services and no schools.

• 30:51Speaker 07

  Who's gonna pick up the trash, yeah.

• 30:53Chris Ryan?

  Is like a dream. It's a pipe dream. And it's like, what he needs is to basically break through to the other side where both like in the sort of like on the other side of life idea of it, but also he needs to just end this chase. He needs to stop being chased by the dark arts, stop chasing the dark arts, he needs to get rid of these drugs. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a really beautiful show and it's a really like special little diamond when it comes to like using the crime stuff to like talk about much different things.

• 31:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, I thought that like Tom going to Grasso's house, incredible scene, obviously.

• 31:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 07

  The confession conversation which you and Andy talked about was really amazing. I thought like, again, that was a scene that really showed how the little details in the show elevated into like god tier status.

• 31:40Chris Ryan?

  Asking about this for five hours now.

• 31:43Speaker 07

  Build up and build up the way that he thinks about sin and guilt and doubt and forgiveness, but even just something like he's basically in his pajamas, right? So, okay, if he and Lizzie fuck, he takes off his shirt and we see the tattoo, like to, to build to the moment where you're finally seeing that like the extent of the, what was his relationship to his faith?

• 32:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 07

  The way that that is on his body and presented to us in that moment versus an earlier moment. So purposeful, right?

• 32:13Speaker 07

  I'm coming for you, Grasso, then come, like chills, incredible. And I like thinking about how, you know, obviously Ethan and his trial, everything with Grasso, like all of these things that maybe we thought we had no reason to think would be the, the final episode of the show are now centered, but it's like, it's in some ways the show's version of you put the cold water

• 32:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 32:33Speaker 07

  on your shoulders so that your heart doesn't explode when you find out what you're really heading into.

• 32:37Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 32:38Speaker 07

  You know, so we have been acclimating without even realizing we were this entire time for all of these characters, all of these broken people to confront each other. Like, I'm really obviously quite worried about Maeve and you know, you can see and I've obviously not seen the finale, like you can see in the just the, you know, the, the 40 second preview for the finale that they put at the end of episode six, like Jason and Perry are gonna find her. That's like really featured in the coming in the finale teaser. So obviously that's worrying. I hope Maeve makes it out. If she does, like into what kind of life? If she doesn't, I find my mind going to like.

• 33:16Speaker 07

  Does Tom take Harper and Wyatt too?

• 33:19Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 33:19Speaker 07

  You know?

• 33:20Chris Ryan?

  Family Rob incident?

• 33:21Speaker 07

  Yeah. So, and in some ways, it's like the plot particulars and weirdly, the fates of the characters are like, obviously, they are important and they matter to me because I'm really invested in these people's lives, but it's like, the message feels so established already. I think that the fact that the show is so heavy and really like rooted in despair and a feeling of like hopelessness, but then I find it to be so hopeful as well. Like that little glimmer of, you know, that's why I loved the Tom Grosso conversation. Like, if you just, if you know, if you want forgiveness, like, all you have to do is ask. And the fact that that can feel impossible, like when he was saying to Robbie in episode five,

• 34:04Speaker 07

  you don't have to be the vagrant bird. Like, it's not necessarily too late for you to come home. And do people have the ability to realize that that's true? Is it true? You know, and like, what is more powerful, being the person on the receiving end of that, or the person who can maybe grant that to somebody else?

• 34:22Chris Ryan?

  Right. You know, and even that Robbie-Tom conversation, I just keep thinking about like what you were saying about Shelley and how nine out of 10 shows have Shelley open the door, let them go talk to Ray, and that's pretty much it.

• 34:39Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 34:39Chris Ryan?

  This is just the woman who lives in this guy's house. She gets an extra bit when Ray is like, we're doing, we're gonna rob these guys. You know, she's interrogated, you have that incredible Aaliyah monologue with her. Then she's kind of gone for a while and then pops out at the most crucial moment of Robbie's life, pretty much, when he's deciding what he's gonna do. But because we've spent just those extra couple of scenes with her.

• 35:08Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 35:08Chris Ryan?

  She goes from being someone who's in the background to someone who is now in the foreground. And then even if that's just all we get with her, you know what I mean? Like, obviously, she, at the end of five gives, or at the end of six, gives Maeve the money.

• 35:23Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 35:24Chris Ryan?

  And you're just like, this is incredible, but also like Maeve is now in a tremendous amount of even more danger.

• 35:30Speaker 07

  But even like, one thing I found myself thinking about a lot was like, Robbie had absolutely no reason to believe that she would give me the money.

• 35:38Chris Ryan?

  Of course, I don't even know if he does.

• 35:39Speaker 07

  And, yeah.

• 35:41Chris Ryan?

  But he's like, this is my best shot.

• 35:42Speaker 07

  And the thing that he's banking on, the actual, there's the literal currency of like moving the fentanyl. And what was in Grosso's file, like the actual tangible thing you can hold in your hand or that you can point somebody to. But like the only actual shared currency between those people is like the trust that you know what it's like to be let down.

• 35:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 07

  Right?

• 36:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 07

  And so that's the thing they're banking on at the end of the day, which is like a really remarkable thing to study over seven hours of TV.

• 36:06Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And then another example of that is like, there's a lot of shots of birds in the show.

• 36:10Speaker 07

  Beautiful.

• 36:11Chris Ryan?

  And you're just kind of like.

• 36:12Speaker 07

  Are you a big bird guy?

• 36:13Chris Ryan?

  I'm not.

• 36:13Speaker 07

  I mean, you're go birds, obviously.

• 36:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I'm go birds, but, you know, I'm not, but it's an easy thing to just be like, all right, we're going to cut to some idyllic nature shots to like fill this out. You know, dare I say, sometimes I find Mike White over relies on that, you know? And I know that there's symbolism in his cutaways and everything, but I do think that you get all that stuff. You get him watching these, these birds and kind of drunkenly like mentioning that this one thing has shown up in his backyard.

• 36:42Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 36:43Chris Ryan?

  Because that hits harder when they have this conversation in the car.

• 36:46Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 36:47Chris Ryan?

  And he's like, you're the vagrant, you know, you're like, oh shit, that's why we've been looking at these things for such a long time. I'm glad you like it.

• 36:53Speaker 07

  That's great.

• 36:53Chris Ryan?

  So you said it's easily among, what were the other top shows of the year for you?

• 36:58Speaker 07

  I mean, all right, let me issue the caveat that my brain is just shattered right now. Jet lag also, the general just decline and decay of my.

• 37:06Chris Ryan?

  I'll fact check you in real time.

• 37:07Speaker 07

  faculties and acuity. I'm sure I'm remembering a few things that are very important to me this year that I loved. I think my, I think my favorite, my, the shows that I think are the best this year so far. And or.

• 37:22Speaker 07

  Task.

• 37:23Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:23Speaker 07

  Adolescence.

• 37:24Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm. Pitt.

• 37:26Speaker 07

  Pitt, Severance.

• 37:28Chris Ryan?

  There's one you're forgetting.

• 37:29Speaker 07

  Maybe that's my top five. What am I forgetting?

• 37:31Chris Ryan?

  Shorzy.

• 37:33Speaker 07

  Well, let me tell you something. I'm not forgetting Shorzy, but I was forgotten.

• 37:38Speaker 07

  By you and Mandzukas.

• 37:41Speaker 07

  When Shorzy rolled around. Forgotten.

• 37:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, I definitely told you to watch Shorzy.

• 37:46Speaker 07

  Yes, and then the three of us were texting about how we would pod together when the new season came out.

• 37:50Chris Ryan?

  Where were you?

• 37:51Speaker 07

  I was here and Kaia was like, "They're podding about Shorzy." And then I came over and I stood there and waited to watch you come out of the studio.

• 38:01Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 38:01Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 38:02Chris Ryan?

  I'm sorry.

• 38:03Speaker 07

  You're not.

• 38:04Chris Ryan?

  You're a very busy woman, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to encumber you.

• 38:08Speaker 07

  Sure, yeah, okay, thanks. Yeah, Shorzy would be up there, that was a great one. Um, what else came out this year? I was higher on the season of Last of Us than many.

• 38:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think it's been-

• 38:18Speaker 07

  Enjoyed that, what else?

• 38:19Chris Ryan?

  A consistently entertaining TV year that has-

• 38:21Speaker 07

  Hit the pit road.

• 38:22Chris Ryan?

  Four or five shows that are kind of a cut above.

• 38:24Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 38:25Chris Ryan?

  And-

• 38:26Speaker 07

  And this is one of them, no question.

• 38:27Chris Ryan?

  Task is coming on strong, but I still think, on a personal note, just to see the project fulfilled Andor is kind of like-

• 38:35Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 38:35Chris Ryan?

  Separate, which is weird because one of the things that I think has united, uh, my favorite shows this year has been This Feels Like Real Life, like whether it's The Pit or Adolescence and in some ways Task. Andor is about space politics, but obviously is also about revolution and has become, you know, kind of a touchstone cultural moment at this, at this particular time in American and Western politics.

• 39:00Speaker 07

  I mean, obviously, we've talked about this many times over the years and covering Thrones together and many other things, but, you know, that's ultimately like, that's the great magic trick of genre storytelling. Like, that's what genre storytelling at its, its best does. It simultaneously transports you to a world that is not yours and is ultimately not recognizable and unlocks something about your ability to think about and understand your own life. And Andor is just the supreme.

• 39:23Chris Ryan?

  And just even as a season of TV, Andor is probably like, the first time since Bear season two, maybe, that I can remember, where you're like, you'll be, you'll be like, having a conversation about the best episode of a season of television and you realize that you're talking about different episodes because they're both, there's so many good ones.

• 39:43Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 39:44Chris Ryan?

  Um, thanks for coming on today.

• 39:46Speaker 07

  Thanks for having me, man.

• 39:48Chris Ryan?

  Uh-

• 39:48Speaker 07

  What a treat.

• 39:49Chris Ryan?

  Enjoy the Task finale.

• 39:51Speaker 07

  I'm really looking forward to it. I think I'm gonna probably be pretty shaken by whatever happens. That's my, that's my expectation. Um, I'm looking forward to it, I can't wait. You and Andy mentioned the possibility, when you were covering episode six-

• 40:07Speaker 07

  That this was not 100% definitively a limited series.

• 40:11Chris Ryan?

  There's just a lot of chatter.

• 40:12Speaker 07

  Which shattered me. I did, I did not know that that was like out in the ether as a possibility.

• 40:19Chris Ryan?

  I think there's just been a lot of chatter about, about the Inglesby verse.

• 40:25Speaker 07

  Some chirping birds.

• 40:26Chris Ryan?

  That there, that there is interest in doing more of this show particular, in particular.

• 40:32Speaker 07

  I would be thrilled.

• 40:34Chris Ryan?

  I think it's, I think it's a no brainer. I hope they don't like let it, like basically what happened with Mare, which is like they made it. I think they made it around or right after or during COVID. And kind of like then Kate Winslet went off and did like Kate Winslet things and like she was like, I would love to play this character again. But obviously her dance card gets really full up. Like, I hope people love Task and that they then they're like,

• 41:00Speaker 07

  We need to do more of it.

• 41:00Chris Ryan?

  Let's do Task and let's do it like next year, you know?

• 41:03Speaker 07

  That would be incredible.

• 41:04Chris Ryan?

  I hope so. Um, thank you so much Mallory.

• 41:07Speaker 07

  Thank you, Christopher.

• 41:07Chris Ryan?

  Let's get into my interview with Doug Delagarian from They Are But Gutting A Body Of Water.

• 41:13Speaker 03

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• 43:28Chris Ryan?

  All right, we're about to get into my interview with Doug from They Are Gunning a Body of Water. This is one of my favorite current bands. Their new album Lotto, which comes out midnight Friday or late tonight Thursday, so you'll be able to listen to it almost immediately after you hear this pod. This is easily my favorite record of the year, so I really wanted Doug to come on. Annie and I have bands on from time to time. They tend to be relatively obscure, I guess, compared to maybe some of the TV people that we have on, but if you're listening to this and you like They Are Gunning a Body of Water, I think it's a really fun interview because we go through a bunch of the songs on Lotto and talk about like their creation and what Doug was kind of thinking when he was making them. If you don't know this band, I would say, do you like Sonic Youth? Do you like Nirvana? Do you like My Bloody Valentine?

• 44:13Chris Ryan?

  I think you'd like them. They are just an amazing underground rock band. They have elements of shoegaze, elements of electronic music, elements of just, you know, really, really good. All indie rock, I guess. It's hard to know what to call them because they are really, really unique. This is a Philadelphia band. So in, you know, the tradition of this podcast, we celebrate things from Philadelphia. They sound otherworldly to me, but they also sound like they can only really come from Philadelphia. I talked to Doug about that. I talked to Doug about these songs. We talked a little bit of Birds. Go Birds. Go there. Gutting a Body of Water. Go, go check out Lotto. Doug, thank you so much for joining me, man. You know, I've loved this band for a minute. Lotto, the new record from They

• 44:58Chris Ryan?

  Are Gutting a Body of Water is honestly like pretty far away the best thing I've heard this year. So congratulations on the record. Thanks for joining me. Yeah. So you're calling from Philly right now?

• 45:08Speaker 09

  Yeah, yeah. West Philly. Yeah. I'm in my warehouse.

• 45:10Chris Ryan?

  I was, wanted to talk to you a little bit because, you know, me and Andy, we've been, my, my podcast partner have been talking about this show Task that's been on for a minute. It's about, it's a crime show set in Philly on HBO, but we've had Philly on the brain. I've been back a bunch recently. When you think about it, like, what is distinctively Philadelphia about the sound of, of this record specifically, but the bands in general?

• 45:33Speaker 09

  Listen, full transparency, I'm not from here. I've been here a long time. And I love it. And, and I would die for this city. I love this, I love this place. But the other thing is just like, um, it's kind of like an infectious thing that I think happens to you whether or not you want to, uh, you want it to, you know what I mean? So I got here in whatever, like 2015 or 16 or something like that. And, um, even like the stuff that I'm talking about on the record is very, uh, just like pertains to my day to day life.

• 46:04Chris Ryan?

  I wanted to ask you, this is sort of like a tough question for me to articulate because I don't know how you would want to answer it. But one of the things that's always drawn me to the band is I feel like for better and probably for worse for you sometimes, like you're just like, the listener gets to ride shotgun in your brain. Like, now for me, it's always been like this musical journey with you where I'm like, how is this guy putting together these sounds together? Like the, whether it's a shoegay sound or a jungle breakbeat, or even just like the little samples you're triggering and all this stuff. And I feel like I can feel this. Journey or passion you've had for music for your whole life, like coming out in these records. And it really, really, really speaks to me because I feel like I share a lot of

• 46:49Chris Ryan?

  the similar tastes with you. But can you talk to me a little bit about like you as a music listener and like what you've kind of like found when you found it and how it's kind of been assimilated into now like the stuff that you're making?

• 47:03Speaker 09

  Yeah, for sure. When I was a kid, I didn't know anything about indie rock. It just wasn't something that I listened to. I just primarily listened to hip hop, like Lil Wayne and, you know, Jadakiss, the LOX, like all that stuff. That was like primarily what I listened to. My sibling went to school at SVA in New York City and they were, they were just so tapped into like cool shit that I, you know, it just wasn't a part of, you know, I didn't, I didn't know anything about it. And so then it just became like, you know, like Radiator Hospital and stuff like that. And I was just like, wow, this is like super cool. But then also,

• 47:47Speaker 09

  you know, when I was like 22, 23, I got into like Boards of Canada and I think Gio Gotti, like specifically really changed the way I thought about a lot of things. Cause like that whole record Gio Gotti is like backwards. I mean, every song is like literally, like I think they like record things forwards and just like reverse it and put it out. And I always thought like it felt so specific and it felt, I remember the first time I listened to it, I was like, I hate the way I feel when I listen to this. Then it just becomes like comfortable. And the same thing could be said for like My Bloody Valentine or whatever. I think the other thing is just like, we're starving for like a monoculture, but I think

• 48:32Speaker 09

  the monoculture kind of that exists is like a cacophony of everything all at once. And I think I've always really just been a fan of so many different things and. You know, my whole thing is just like, if you like something, why don't you just like take a swing at it? Just see how.

• 48:50Chris Ryan?

  Do you, do you actually feel like you're starving for a monoculture? Like, do you wish that there was like a single publication telling you what bands to listen to and stuff like that? And like, kind of have that, maybe not that kind of like gatekeeping, but.

• 49:04Speaker 09

  Not, not a publication, but I really do wish, you know, I don't know. I, I, I, I feel like even up until, you know, the, the mid 2000s or whatever. I remember like The Sopranos was such a big deal. Maybe that's, maybe that's a cool thing about the internet too, is that everybody is just like, uh, into their own thing. You know, like, I don't know, but, uh, but I really, I love the feeling of just like everybody knowing what this thing is.

• 49:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think the cool thing about the internet is, for instance, like, somebody could hear this interview. I know I had this experience with your band where you can just like lose yourself in it. And you can watch these clips of you guys playing live in a circle, in a Sonic drive-in or whatever. You can really like immerse yourself in something so fast. But I think for you and me, probably who still remember a pre-digital life, like, there was some kind of romance to the way you're describing getting into Radiator Hospital and listening to Jadakiss tapes and stuff like that. And like finding it in a little bit of a slower way. It feels like I almost burned through my obsessions like super fast now.

• 50:15Speaker 09

  That's, yes, exactly. I think that is the ultimate, um, conclusion to like a lack of monoculture is that you're super thrilled about something, um, but it doesn't have the staying power that it once did.

• 50:28Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 50:29Speaker 09

  You know what I mean? Like, I, and I think that, um, that, I don't know if it's scary. Um, it's just, uh, I don't know, there's something really magical about, uh, things that were just like a part of the zeitgeist. You know what I mean?

• 50:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:46Speaker 09

  Um, I don't know.

• 50:47Chris Ryan?

  Um, let's talk a little bit about Lotto because, uh,

• 50:52Chris Ryan?

  It feels very much like you guys playing in a room and it feels like a record. I cannot wait to see you guys play live because it just feels like it's been, it's been dialed up to be, to be heard in that environment. Um, was that like a, a big thing for you where you were like, I wanna, I wanna feel like this feels like a band right now?

• 51:13Speaker 09

  Yeah, for sure. I think we were getting to a point where we were so niche. Uh, and just so like, we were becoming a meme, you know what I mean? It was getting weird and like, that's cool. I'm all, I, you know, you can, you can listen to my music and, and determine that like, I'm super into experimentation and I'm super into things, uh, exploring and, uh, figuring out, you know, uh, new ways to do things or whatever. But I think at the end of the day with this one, I was just like, dude, I just wanna, get back to the basics. Like, what do we sound like?

• 51:51Speaker 09

  And also like, you know, by the time we were making, we made Gestures Ben and it was just me and Ben and our friend Evan playing bass. It was just a three piece. Um, by the time I made Destiny XL, it was like a cycling cast of people. Um, and they were changing constantly. By the time we got to Lucky Styles, it was, um, the solid four piece that we have now. So this record as a follow, and then we did Expansion Pack 2, which was really just like, super far out. Um, I wanted to just like, go as many places as I wanted to with that one. Um, so for this one, it was like, let's just bring it back to reality and just see what that feels like.

• 52:34Speaker 09

  Um, and honestly, it's cool. It's exciting. I got real into, uh, Nirvana's In Utero and just like, reading about it and reading about like, uh, what that felt like. I love creating. Things that feel almost artificial.

• 52:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 09

  Like, uh, like the, like the blue raspberry flavor of candy or something like that. You know what I mean? Cause like, it's like, it really is the best flavor. It's phenomenal. It's like strange and, you know, it doesn't exist in nature. But then there's also something about like just eating a, you know, a strawberry.

• 53:07Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 53:07Speaker 09

  Where you're like, this is nice too, you know?

• 53:10Chris Ryan?

  It tastes like it looks, you know?

• 53:12Speaker 09

  Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's no like, it's not like a mystery airheads flavor where you're like, I have no idea what the fuck this thing is, you know? Um, so yeah, I don't know. It was cool to get back to that. And also just a lot of the things that I was talking about on the record or just where I was in my life. And I think where we all were in our lives, um, you know, we just wanted to make a record that we could recreate live. Is, sometimes that's like, that's hard, you know? You do all, it's cool to explore, man. It's cool to like, do all these other different things and, you know, see where things can go. But like, we tried playing Kmart Day Men Break live, probably like five times and it's cool. It just doesn't hit the same way.

• 53:56Speaker 09

  And we just wanted to be like, yo, but like Delta P does. Or like Behind the Waterfall does, but it's a totally different thing when we play it live. And both of those are off Lucky Styles. Um, but like with the Lotto songs, it's just like, we could just play any of them.

• 54:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, my, I think my favorite song by you guys is, is still Fake Twenty. And, and that feels like it could be on Lotto, you know? It feels like.

• 54:18Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 54:19Chris Ryan?

  Um.

• 54:20Speaker 09

  It's, it, things move in cycles, dude. I think, uh, this is kind of like a revisitation of what it felt like to make Gesture's Ben, you know? Um, and I think it's kind of, it just kind of always moves in cycles like that. And, uh, you know, yeah. Gesture's Ben felt similarly where it was like, it, we just kind of live tracked it. And it was, um, I don't know if we live tracked it, but it, but it feels so live. Um. But yeah, I don't know. Um, it's really, it's been refreshing to get into just like of just being

• 54:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:56Speaker 09

  You know, like, you know what I mean? Like, at the end of the day, it's like all this other stuff, all this jungle stuff, all this like, and I love all that stuff. Don't you know what I mean? Like, uh, no shade at all, but it was definitely just so much cooler to just be like, we're just gonna be a band for this.

• 55:11Chris Ryan?

  That's cool.

• 55:12Speaker 09

  And see what that, yeah, it was enjoyable to, to create too, because it was just, it was so much easier.

• 55:19Chris Ryan?

  So like, um, I want to ask you about a couple of the songs. So I'm going to start in the middle of the record. You know, and we're not going to go track by track or anything like that, but I just had, I want, I just had to like, ask you about a couple of things. When I was listening to the promo version of the album, like on repeat, I often wouldn't be able to see what track I was listening to. So like the first few times it through, and I get to Slow Crossstick and I'm like, damn, this sounds like Fugazi. This is, and then I was like,

• 55:46Speaker 09

  Well, dude.

• 55:47Chris Ryan?

  It's from Instrument. It's fucking Slow Crossstick. I was so excited.

• 55:50Speaker 09

  Dude, it's the, it's the opening track on the, not of the record itself, but, um, in the, in the documentary. And I just always remember like watching that and being like, holy, it just feels, and it's such a simple song, but it just feels so powerful. And honestly, I don't think we recreated it in a way that's, that is, I don't even know if it does it justice. It was just like, I just wanted to do it because, you know, I mean, like,

• 56:23Speaker 09

  morally, I really love those guys and I've always, you know, I've always been a fan of just like, I don't know, just everything. And I remember the first time I heard Instrument, I think, I think I thought I knew what Fugazi sounded like. And then I heard Instrument in like, uh, in, uh, Quad Cities Iowa, just like after the show we played, maybe in like 2015. And I was like, this is crazy. This sounds like Duster or something. This is like some other thing that just like, I thought I knew what Fugazi sounded like. And then I listened to that record and I was just like, holy smokes. It's, um, so yeah, I've always, I love that record. That record in particular, Instrument soundtrack is just like,

• 57:05Speaker 09

  easily one of my favorites. And, uh, yeah, so I just wanted to like, it's, it's just a nod.

• 57:10Chris Ryan?

  It's also like a great middle of the record, kind of like. Stretch where you're just like, yeah, man, we're just gonna like, like loose it like, it's almost like shake it off. And now we're gonna finish the album. But when I heard it and I was thinking, you know, like instrument was just like a VHS tape that we just had on in our apartment in Boston. When I was living there, when I was a kid forever, it just felt like it was on a loop. And you would just walk in and be like, oh, geez, about to climb through the basketball hoop now.

• 57:38Speaker 09

  Yeah, yes, yes.

• 57:39Chris Ryan?

  But that period of time for Fugazi, which is like, actually, like that Red Medicine and Hits uh, instrument era is like my favorite, but it made this connection in my head between like, kind of what you guys are doing and, and, and what they were doing. And they were like demons in the studio. Like they're doing so much cool stuff on those albums and, but they could still like tear your head off live. And we're still like this incredible rock band. So I thought it was just an awesome, an awesome like little like Easter egg to throw in there. I wanted to ask you about Sour Diesel. Um, one of the cool things on Lotto is your voice is both at once, um, much more audible, but also it almost feels like,

• 58:23Chris Ryan?

  I know you're, you're singing about yourself and I know you're singing about some incredibly intense shit. But you almost like are changing the character of the voice on a couple of different songs. Like sometimes it's spoken word. Sour Diesel has this like gorgeous vocal harmony going on. Like, can you tell me a little bit about that song?

• 58:40Speaker 09

  You're listening to Pinback?

• 58:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 58:43Speaker 09

  Dude, I'm like a huge Rob Crowhead and uh, they always, I don't know, there's this song Tripoli that they have and it's off like their first record. Uh, this is a pinback CD and there's, there's just these like interlocking vocal melodies. But I was always just like, that's such a cool way to like make a song. Um, and I'm, I've always just been really into that. Um, so for that one, it was like, I don't know, there's a demo. And Sour Diesel, um, that we'll probably put out like some time next week with a video or whatever. And it's just a totally different song. Um, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's way different. Um, it's way more sad and, you know, whatever. It was, uh, so I remember bringing that one to these guys and being like, yo, this is how

• 59:27Speaker 09

  it goes. And, uh, it almost feels like, uh, another, another kind of, uh, inspiration for that was like, um, Joyce Manor, um, like Constant Headache, like just how that song feels, man. It's just so good. Those are, those are, you know, two timeless songs. I, I think good music just speaks for itself. You can pigeonhole it. You can do whatever like, oh, that's pop punk. I don't like that or whatever. I think anybody that listens to Constant Headache, anybody that listens to Tripoli, whatever, you're just like, this is phenomenal. Like, and I think that was, that's always kind of what I'm trying to get at. It's just like, you know, people always want to call us shoe gays and they

• 1:00:10Speaker 09

  want to be like, yo, you're in this realm or this realm or whatever. But I think like, at the end of the day, Lotto was kind of like an exploration and just being like, let's just make good music. Let's just see what that feels like to be in a room and just make good music together. And, uh, so yeah, it was an exploration in that way too, and not trying to lean too heavy into being one way or the other, you know? Um, but yeah, that song in particular, um, I like that song a lot. I, I like the demo even more. Like a, like a lot. I look forward to hearing the sad version of this. Yeah, it's, it's depressing. It's like, uh, but it's, but I didn't want to do that also. Like, I don't know. Lotto doesn't need to be, like, sure, I'm talking about some really heavy shit or whatever, but we all go through shit. My shit is not worse than

• 1:00:55Speaker 09

  anybody else's. Um, and I think, uh, I don't know, I, I really don't want to ever put out anything where it's like. I I think that's the the hard part about like being an addict in recovery and talking about the real truths of the of that is there it could be seen as some sort of romanticization, but it's really it's I really don't want it to be. I really want it to be like, hey, you know, I struggle just like you struggle, you know? And I think that's like, um, that's really, that's really the the message of the record in general. I mean, the last song, Herpen, where like, I'm talking about like a plane landing when and that that actually

• 1:01:36Speaker 09

  happened. We were on this plane and I thought it was it was scary as shit. I hate flying.

• 1:01:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Speaker 09

  I didn't grow up flying or whatever. And, uh, yeah, but the plane lands. And, uh, I think that's like, kind of the thing that I'm trying to get at, too. It's just like, you know, I don't know, whatever. I just went on a tangent.

• 1:01:55Chris Ryan?

  No, not at all, man. I mean, I I was wondering, you know, when we were coming into this, I was like, you know, on the fence about how much to ask you about the lyrical content of it, because I'm sure it's difficult to feel like you opened a vein, basically, on this record and you're so honest. And then you have to forget, like, have to like, perform it every night. You also have to talk about it with interviewers and journalists who are like, hey, man, so tell me about this, tell me about that. And I I too have my personal issues with this, some of the stuff that you've talked about. And it's not something I want to talk about every day. You know what I mean?

• 1:02:30Speaker 09

  Yeah, not at all, not at all. I mean, that's the thing is like, I I learned pretty early on. Uh, it's weird. When you first get clean, uh, you tell everybody, you know what I mean? You're like, hey, what's up? I'm I'm Doug. I'm I'm, uh, recovering dope clean and, you know, whatever. And then like years later, you get to this point where you're like, I don't need to tell my boss that I'm a fucking junkie. You know what I mean? Like, I don't need to tell certain people this stuff like, because it's just so personal or whatever. Um. And so I kind of learned that a lot, but it's funny. Yeah, it's funny to be like, you know, I've always like veiled everything. That's another thing about Lotto too, is it's just very out in the open. And uh, the, a lot of the other stuff that I'm talking about on the other records is the same stuff.

• 1:03:11Chris Ryan?

  But it's like hidden beneath layers of noise and yeah.

• 1:03:15Speaker 09

  Um, so it's weird to like do all these interviews now and people are like, what's up you fucking junkie? Like, what's this about? You know what I mean? You're like, oh, man.

• 1:03:24Chris Ryan?

  You should just start lying and be like, oh no, actually this song's about Saquon Barkley.

• 1:03:28Speaker 09

  Yeah, totally. They're all about Saquon Barkley.

• 1:03:32Chris Ryan?

  Ultimately.

• 1:03:32Speaker 09

  Especially this season.

• 1:03:33Chris Ryan?

  Um, American food. When I heard this, I was like, I, this, this band could do anything. Like, what is going on here? Um, it's got this incredible break, the scratching, the harmonies, but the pitched up stuff. Tell, tell me about putting it together. And this is the first single now, you know, we're, we're not talking to Beyonce here. It's like, it's a single, but it's like part of an album, but like, you obviously wanted to make a statement with putting this out first.

• 1:04:01Speaker 09

  Totally. Yeah. I mean, well, that's like the whole thing. That's our whole thing all the time is like red herring.

• 1:04:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Speaker 09

  You know, just like, you know, I, I wanted to, I, you know, we did, I, I think things move in cycles and this is really important too. Like, um, at the end of, at the end of, uh, at the end of Lucky Styles, the last song is 23 till and Paddy. And that kind of, and it's a totally different song than the rest of the songs. And that kind of alludes to a different, a different thing. Like the next LP will be this different thing. And I did that intentionally. Um, and then, you know, um, after putting out all the like, the SoundCloud things,

• 1:04:44Speaker 09

  uh, with like swan like, it was funny to just like, kind of throw a red herring and be like, yeah, we got this live record on deck. And it's like this whole thing of just us as a band, but um, we're going to put out this really weird song. Um, and, and honestly with that song, it just, it, sometimes it happens where they just come together in a matter of, uh, hours and you're just like, I'm done with it. This one's done and it just feels right. Um, and that one just kind of happened and I was just like, yeah, this is good. I remember sending it. To the rest of the band and they were like, this is cool. And then, uh, you know, I don't even know if it fits on the record, but I think that's probably why it's really great for it to be like a, I think it does like thematically.

• 1:05:28Speaker 09

  Um, but like sonically, I don't know if it fits on the record, but it definitely, uh, it was well worth it to make that the first single. You know what I mean? Just.

• 1:05:38Chris Ryan?

  It was also really cool because there's a version of that song that I think could have like 15 more things on it. You know, like you could have like all these other layers and this just had like the five perfect parts to it. And I, it's a, it's a constant repeat for me. Um, the last one I wanted to ask you about was Bayside Cape, just cause this one, this is up there with Diesel with like my favorite on the records and it's just the guitar playing is so sick on this song.

• 1:06:01Speaker 09

  Thanks.

• 1:06:02Chris Ryan?

  This was the one where I was like, this is, this is probably going to be so fun to play live like 50 times for you guys. Um, this and, and, and Herb and like both like really great, strong end of the album. Bayside, what's, what's going on there?

• 1:06:16Speaker 09

  So there's this band called, uh, Horse Cops from Philadelphia and they're just one of my favorite bands of all time. And I think, uh, you know, uh, I always draw a lot of inspiration from my friend Josh, who, uh, like kind of heads that band or whatever. And, uh, it just feels like a fun Horse Cop song. And I, I, I don't know, I, I really, uh, that's a Philly song.

• 1:06:39Chris Ryan?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:06:39Speaker 09

  You know what I'm saying? Like that's, that's, if I was like, yo, what is, what is like Philadelphia sound like? It's like snoozer.

• 1:06:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:48Speaker 09

  It's like, uh, you know, like, and, and I think, uh, or it's like, you know, sun organ or whatever. And I think, um, that song is just kind of a celebration of that. Um, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, I love playing that one. That one is really fun. I love all the harmonics that woo. It just feels so good. And also like for that one, the vocal melody just follows the guitar part, um, which I don't frequently do.

• 1:07:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that's like a pavement thing, right? Like Malcolm is does, like they'll just do like my vocal follows this lead guitar part. Yeah, it's cool.

• 1:07:22Speaker 09

  Totally, yeah. And I think like, I don't know, I often try to figure out what the best melody would be to stand out from everything, but for that one, I was just like, let's just get it right in there and see how it feels to just follow the guitar part. And yeah, it's an enjoyable one. We're putting out a video for that one early next week that I'm really stoked on.

• 1:07:42Chris Ryan?

  All right, man. Well, I'm not going to take up any more of your time. Thank you so much for coming on. And thank you for making this record. I can't wait to see you guys when you come out to LA.

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