$DJT Goes Nuclear, OpenAI in talks at $750B, 2025 Model Wars in Review | Brian Armstrong & Tarek Mansour, Simon Eskildsen

(00:30) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (05:02) - OpenAI in talks at $750B (08:56) - WB Board Questions Paramount's Funding Stability (23:03) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (55:03) - Brian Armstrong and Tarek Mansour are the co-founders of Coinbase, one of the world’s largest cryptocurrency platforms. Armstrong, a former Airbnb engineer, serves as CEO and has been a leading advocate for mainstream crypto adoption, while Mansour, Coinbase’s CTO, architected much of the company’s core infrastructure and security systems. (01:11:58) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (01:44:16) - Simon Hørup Eskildsen, co-founder and CEO of turbopuffer—a serverless vector and full-text search platform—discusses the company's recent addition of Thrive Capital as an investor, emphasizing their preference for a concentrated cap table with long-term partners. He highlights the importance of customer satisfaction over fundraising figures, sharing a positive testimonial from Notion's co-founder, Akshay Kothari, about turbopuffer's impact on product development. Eskildsen also notes the company's growth to 22 employees and their focus on scaling infrastructure to handle increasing data demands in AI applications. (02:01:48) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions TBPN.com is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com Figma - https://figma.com Vanta - https://vanta.com Linear - https://linear.app Eight Sleep - https://eightsleep.com/tbpn Wander - https://wander.com/tbpn Public - https://public.com AdQuick - https://adquick.com Bezel - https://getbezel.com Numeral - https://www.numeralhq.com Attio - https://attio.com/tbpn Fin - https://fin.ai/tbpn Graphite - https://graphite.dev Restream - https://restream.io Profound - https://tryprofound.com Julius AI - https://julius.ai turbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.com Polymarket - https://polymarket.com/ fal - https://fal.ai Privy - https://www.privy.io Cognition - https://cognition.ai Gemini - https://gemini.google.com Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  You're watching TVP N. Today is Thursday, December 18th, 2025. We are live from the TVP N Ultra Dome, the Temple of Technology, the Fortress of Finance.

• 0:14John Coogan?

  rim.com, count his money, save both, easiest corporate card, bill pay, accounting, a whole lot more all in one place. Uh, we got a video here, uh, that, uh, I've, it has been promised to me. I, I saved this for the show. So this reaction, I haven't seen the video, but I've seen the metrics around the video. It's got 15,000 likes just on a quote tweet of it. Uh, I think it's going to be very funny. Tyler was saying, you gotta watch this. So we're going to pull this up. Uh, Pegasus quote tweeting, it says, this is OpenAI showing the public its financials once it goes public.

• 0:53John Coogan?

  Okay. It looks pretty good. Getting a haircut. It looks good.

• 0:58John Coogan?

  Oh no.

• 1:02John Coogan?

  You know, I've been watching these haircut videos and they're actually incredibly good content because, uh, I saw one, I mean, obviously that one's very silly, but.

• 1:10Jordi Hays?

  Dude, this, that, that, that, this video going viral, this guy's going to be full GigaChat mode within six months.

• 1:16John Coogan?

  I guarantee it.

• 1:17Jordi Hays?

  Guarantee it.

• 1:17John Coogan?

  Guarantee it.

• 1:18Jordi Hays?

  But. He just did that. He, he knew what was going to happen. He did it to inspire himself to, I guess.

• 1:24John Coogan?

  For sure, for sure, for sure.

• 1:25Jordi Hays?

  To start fun smashing.

• 1:26John Coogan?

  I, I looked at a, uh, at a haircut video where, uh, and it's, it's incredibly sticky content because you're watching the guy, describe what he wants. And then at the very end, they show you a montage of the photos. And when it works out, obviously that the, the joke there is that, you know, it's a downgrade. Um, but when, when it works out, it's really satisfying. The payoff comes right at the end, which of course is great for retention and average view duration. And so, uh, it's, uh, it's a growing format. Uh, it does make me wonder like there are certain, like can every different vertical, can every different type of content become, uh, you know, high retention? Or are there some things that are just like more naturally like payoff based, right?

• 2:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:11John Coogan?

  Uh, anyway, um, let me tell you about Adio, the AI native CRM. Adio builds, scales and grows your company to the next level.

• 2:22John Coogan?

  We are in Arena Mag. This is breaking news. The latest edition of Arena. We had

• 2:28Jordi Hays?

  Three Martini Lunch.

• 2:30John Coogan?

  This is issue number six, Q4 2025, Three Martini Lunch. And we are in here with a wonderful spread. Oh, there's a bunch of, there's a bunch of great people in here. Look at this. We got Daniel in here. I don't know if he's doxed in this photo, actually.

• 2:47Jordi Hays?

  A growing one?

• 2:48John Coogan?

  I think so, but there's a profile on some Archer stuff, some VTOL stuff.

• 2:53Jordi Hays?

  Very nice.

• 2:54John Coogan?

  We got California Forever in here.

• 2:57Jordi Hays?

  Apparently, we are having a YouTube issue, folks. You'll have to refresh the app if you want to avoid any type of lag.

• 3:05John Coogan?

  Okay. Oh, they did a profile on, or a review of Dwarash Patel's The Scaling Era. A, whoa. What is going on here? The Christmas spirit.

• 3:20Jordi Hays?

  A wild.

• 3:21John Coogan?

  That camera had one too many eggnogs. Yeah, Tyler also has The Scaling Era, An Oral History of AI, 2019 to 2025 by Dwarash Patel. There's a whole review of the book. And then, of course, you get the beautiful TBPS spread. Look at this.

• 3:41Jordi Hays?

  There you go.

• 3:42John Coogan?

  Isn't that great? I like the, they kind of brought their own aesthetic on top of some photos that we took here in the UltraDome. Very, very fun.

• 3:50Jordi Hays?

  They respected, they respected the brand.

• 3:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, it looks great. And here's a photo of me and Jordy having breakfast, showing you what the day in the life is like. And then here's me reading the Wall Street Journal before the show starts, Life of Coogan.

• 4:03Jordi Hays?

  Coogan mode.

• 4:04John Coogan?

  Very fun. We, I could take you through it, but you've heard the, you've heard the story. And you can go subscribe to Arena Mag. You can read it online. Three Martini Lunch. Interesting, I did want to comment on this. The, the art direction for the cover art, I like Three Martini Lunch. It feels like a pretty big departure from the previous very, I felt, I felt like their previous covers were very collage based. So this is like a much more simple design. Still.

• 4:32Jordi Hays?

  At the same time, it's still very nostalgic.

• 4:34John Coogan?

  Yes. I mean, look at the back.

• 4:35Jordi Hays?

  To a different.

• 4:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, the back says the business of America is business and it has a pager. That's something we haven't gotten into. A cigarette and an ashtray and a Casio watch, which is pretty cool.

• 4:49Jordi Hays?

  Classic. Anyways, back on the timeline.

• 4:53John Coogan?

  Public.com investing for those to take it seriously. Multi-asset investment trusted by millions. What's back on the?

• 4:58Jordi Hays?

  Katie Roof, one of the greatest scoop athletes of our time, a future scoop Hall of Famer. Has a scoop.

• 5:06John Coogan?

  She really has. She clearly has someone at OpenAI who loves her right now. She's been on Scoop tear.

• 5:12Jordi Hays?

  She says scoop, OpenAI could soon be worth 750 billion in a financing round. They've had early talks. Let's give it up for early talks.

• 5:20John Coogan?

  We love early talks.

• 5:21Jordi Hays?

  We prefer advanced talks, but early talks. All right, you gotta, you gotta start somewhere. About raising tens of billions of dollars or even 100 billion. Company was last valued at 500 billion a few months ago. Take him chimes in, says public markets are crushing OpenAI exposed stocks while private investors with visibility into OpenAI's metrics and internal numbers, dot, dot, dot.

• 5:44John Coogan?

  Are piling in essentially is what he's saying.

• 5:46Jordi Hays?

  Both can't be right.

• 5:48John Coogan?

  I trust Katie Roof reporting. So he's saying that it's bullish for OpenAI? That's his take from this?

• 5:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, maybe, maybe some of the, the publics have been oversold. That said, yeah, I'll, I'll be interested to see how this round comes together again. Remember, it's, I think it's a good time to be fundraising if you need tens of billions of dollars. If this, if, if Warner Brothers ends up going with Netflix, right? Cause like, that was just like a huge, like if you're raising tens of billions of dollars.

• 6:25John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:26Jordi Hays?

  And you're not doing it from strategics like the hyperscalers. It pretty much has to be sovereign wealth funds.

• 6:32John Coogan?

  Yeah, and, and potentially like they, they're like the, if, if they pass on Warner Brothers, they have, they have, they have loose change in the couch cushions to, to toss OpenAI's way.

• 6:43Jordi Hays?

  They can collect.

• 6:44John Coogan?

  To the tune of $10 billion checks potentially. But I mean, it does feel like OpenAI is in a bit of a, it feels like the, it feels like the vibes around OpenAI. Traffle disillusionment, potentially going into plateau productivity. It it feels like they're turning it around. It feels like the new models and the products.

• 7:05Jordi Hays?

  I don't know. I haven't I haven't seen many people say, I love 5.2. But then again, uh, out outside in the real world, clearly, you know, ask people what AI app they're using.

• 7:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 7:20Jordi Hays?

  That'll give you a lot of signal.

• 7:21John Coogan?

  It just feels it just feels like like, you know, okay, maybe, maybe we're not in Baja Blast territory, but we know that every code read is followed by an equal.

• 7:30Jordi Hays?

  Adult mode.

• 7:31John Coogan?

  Adult mode.

• 7:32Jordi Hays?

  It's coming in January.

• 7:34John Coogan?

  Uh, yeah, maybe.

• 7:39John Coogan?

  But, uh, but it it it it does. It does seem like a lot of the, uh, a lot of the, a lot of the negativity has kind of worked its way through. The market's traded down. There's maybe not another like it's like it feels like we're finding a bottom. If we're we're like, we're finding like the the footing of like, okay, reset the narratives, rebuild back up like, can they catch up in this? Can they catch up in that? If you see a couple of good charts, a couple of growth charts, then you're sort of back in business because, uh,

• 8:07Jordi Hays?

  And again, I still think I still think the Disney deal.

• 8:09John Coogan?

  Negative as like, like, the the point that I'm making is like, is like, a couple of months ago, it was like, it's Enron, it's gonna blow up, it's zero, it's not gonna work at all. And it does feel like we're turning the corner on that.

• 8:22Jordi Hays?

  Maybe muted the people that that are still saying that because they're still saying it.

• 8:26John Coogan?

  They're still saying it. Well, it just got old.

• 8:28Jordi Hays?

  This was a funny, funny post. Uh, they say Sam says, sell me this pen. Jensen says, I'll lend you the money to buy it.

• 8:38Jordi Hays?

  Of course, Jensen is is investing money.

• 8:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:42Jordi Hays?

  Uh, but anyways, a very good.

• 8:44John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about linear, meet the software, meet the system for modern software development. Streamline linear streamlines work across the entire development cycle from roadmap to release. Uh, Warner CEO David Zaslove and Netflix co-CEOs Greg Peters and Ted Sarandos on the Warner Brothers lot. They took game day photo. They went out deliberately to just strut and just flax and they clearly knew what they were doing. Hey, hey.

• 9:11Jordi Hays?

  Well, this is their new lot.

• 9:12John Coogan?

  You point, you look over here, guys, can we look over this direction? Okay, yeah, that's perfect. Snap, snap, snap. Okay, yeah, you know that, you know, they they know what they're doing. This looks like. No hostile offer can get between us. We're brothers. We're hanging out. This is a sign of strength.

• 9:30Jordi Hays?

  Sun's out, there's palm trees.

• 9:32John Coogan?

  Yeah, this is them sending the signal, sending a signal, hey, we're excited to work together. We're excited to be in partnership, collaborating. There was one person who quoted this and was unhappy about it.

• 9:46Jordi Hays?

  They were saying that they weren't well dressed.

• 9:48John Coogan?

  Yeah, they were saying that they weren't well dressed and he was like, I'm kind of in that boat. It's not.

• 9:53Jordi Hays?

  They threw on a blazer, they threw on their rocking blazers.

• 9:57John Coogan?

  It's definitely like a Hollywood executive style that's sort of like become the norm. Maybe we go back to the three martini lunches, guys. Maybe we throw on suits now that you guys are in business.

• 10:08Jordi Hays?

  But this is also a good way for people that are maybe more on the tech side to start dressing up. You don't have to go from jeans straight into a suit. You can throw on a blazer, right? Something, something to consider.

• 10:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 10:20Jordi Hays?

  Matt Levine is back. He says, I miss Christmas Eve and New Year's and the Fourth of July holidays for newsletters a lot smaller than this. This is as good as it gets for newsletter writers. And we can jump into the article. He says Warner doesn't trust Paramount. Revocable trusts, ESG side letters, IPO lockups, destiny in doing deals over the holidays. Trust. If you're a normal person, most of your wealth is probably in your own name. But if you're one of the richest people in the world, you probably have a lot more complicated estate and tax planning, which probably means that a lot of your wealth is in trusts, legal arrangements that your lawyers set up to hold assets for you. Most simply, you might have a revocable trust where your assets technically belong to the trust, but you have control over the trust's assets, investment decisions, beneficiaries, et cetera.

• 11:04Jordi Hays?

  This can be useful for estate planning, but for most purposes, owning assets in a revocable trust is pretty much like owning them yourself. I regularly say that Mark Zuckerberg, Mark Zuck.

• 11:15Jordi Hays?

  Owns a lot of shares of Meta, or that Elon owns a lot of shares of Tesla, even though neither statement is exactly true. Their trust owns the shares, but for most practical purposes you can think of, they own them. This creates, I suppose, a small dumb problem. Let's say you build big yachts and Mark Zuckerberg comes to you and asks to buy a billion dollar yacht. Naturally, he will pay you the billion dollars on completion of the yacht. You might ask him, "Well, do you have a billion dollars?" And he might say, "No, actually, I don't, but the Mark Zuckerberg Trust owns like a bajillion dollars worth of Meta stock, and I control that, so I'm good." You find that persuasive, so you pull up the yacht sale contract. Who do you put in as the buyer? If you put Mark Zuckerberg, he has no money. If you put the Mark Zuckerberg Trust,

• 11:58Jordi Hays?

  it has plenty of money now. But if it is a revocable trust, he can just take all the money shares out whenever he wants. It's revocable. If he changes his mind about the yacht, he can clean out the trust. You'll send the bill to the trust, but the trust will have no money, and you'll be stuck with the yacht. Not that bad of a situation to be stuck with a billion dollar yacht.

• 12:18John Coogan?

  But if you're in the business of selling them, you certainly want to be able to complete the transaction.

• 12:22Jordi Hays?

  I get the, I get the point.

• 12:23John Coogan?

  This is very interesting.

• 12:24Jordi Hays?

  Honestly, this is a pretty easy problem to solve. You put Mark Zuckerberg in the contract. He doesn't own the assets directly, but he controls the trust. So if he owes you a billion dollars, you can make, make him take it out of the trust.

• 12:35Jordi Hays?

  But maybe you'll get confused, or he'll get confused, and you'll end up signing a contract with the trust. Then if he changes his mind, he can zero out the trust and stiff you. I cannot imagine that this comes up a lot with yacht builders or anyone else. Elon Musk once did sign a contract to buy Twitter for 44 billion, then changed his mind and tried to get out of it. The fact that his wealth is mostly in a trust did not, at any stage of the proceedings, trouble anyone. He had signed his equity commitment in his own name, and everyone understood that if he was sued and lost, he'd have to pay with his trust money if necessary. And Twitter did sue him, and he did pay. Fine, fine, fine. On the other hand, Paramount is trying to buy Warner Brothers Discovery, breaking up Warner's deal to sell itself to Netflix, Inc., and Paramount does not have nearly enough money to pay for Warner.

• 13:19Jordi Hays?

  Instead, much of the money behind the bid comes from Paramount Chief Executive Officer's dad, Larry Ellison. As of this, writing the fifth richest person in the world. Or rather, it comes from his trust. And this would be one of the greatest tricks in the history of mergers and acquisitions. One major sticking point. Is Warner Brothers concerned about the financing proposed by Paramount, which is led by David Ellison? A big part of the equity is backstopped by a trust that manages the wealth of his father, Larry Ellison. Because it's a revocable trust, assets can be taken out of it at any time, and Warner Brothers may have no recourse if that happens, the people said. And Matt says, "Ah, ha, ha, ha, sure."

• 14:00Jordi Hays?

  The risk here is Warner throws over Netflix, pays it a $2.8 billion breakup fee, and signs a deal to sell itself to Paramount for something like $108.4 billion in cash. For some reason, changing market conditions, regulatory difficulties, and a change of heart by the Ellison's, or a change of heart by their co-investors, the Ellison's decide they don't want to close the deal. Quietly, in the comfort of his own home, without saying anything to Warner, Larry Ellison takes all of his stock out of the trust, leaving it empty. "Yoink," he whispers to himself. "Oops, never mind," Paramount tells Warner. Warner sues Paramount for specific performance, seeking to make it pay $108.4 billion and close the deal. "LOL, we don't have that kind of money," says Paramount, which has a market capitalization

• 14:44Jordi Hays?

  of about $15 billion and about $3 billion of cash. When we signed the deal, you knew that the money was coming from the Ellison Trust. So Warner sues the Ellison Trust for specific performance, seeking to make it pay $108 billion, and close the deal. "LOL, we don't have that kind of money," says the Ellison Trust. "We did, sure, but the trust got revoked." "Yoink," adds Larry Ellison more loudly this time. So Warner sues Larry Ellison for the money. He says, "Who, me?" Says Larry Ellison. "You have no deal with me. I didn't even know what you're talking about. This is not my problem." This does not strike me as especially likely, and it would obviously be bad for Paramount and the Ellison's, but I suppose it is possible, and it would be a pretty fun trick.

• 15:25Jordi Hays?

  I talked about this a little bit yesterday on the show, this kind of situation. Today Warner officially rejected Paramount's bid, advising shareholders not to sell their shares in Paramount's tender offer. Here is how Warner describes Larry Ellison's commitment, or lack thereof, and this was the exact quote that I read yesterday, which was, "Despite Paramount's headline claims, there is no equity commitment or backstop from the Ellison family for the offer." And I'll skip over the rest of that quote, but Matt continues, "As far as I can tell, and somewhat bafflingly, this is correct, Paramount's own tender offer says that the Ellison equity commitment and guarantee will be from the Lawrence Ellison revocable trust, not from Larry Ellison himself. The offer points out that the trust is rich. The

• 16:10Jordi Hays?

  Ellison trust has financial resources well in excess of what would be required to meet its financial obligations under the equity commitment letter, including many other assets and financial resources available to it, record and beneficial ownership of approximately 1.16 billion

• 16:25John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 16:26Jordi Hays?

  shares of Oracle stock with a market value of approximately 252 billion as of the date of this offer to purchase. But as the name says, it's revocable. This seems extremely fixable. Have Larry Ellison sign the commitments personally?"

• 16:39John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 16:40Jordi Hays?

  William Kohan reports that "The whole situation is trains passing in the night", and quote, "The Ellison's believe they can still be sued for specific performance to fund the deal." He quotes a person familiar with their thinking, saying that "There is no financing condition in the deal, and Paramount and the Ellison/Redbird, along with our lenders, are legally obligated to close regardless of future financial or business performance at Paramount. That is not an impossible thought to convey in merger papers, and yet so far they apparently haven't." And then do you want to read-

• 17:12John Coogan?

  Life hack, just, well, I mean, the ESG side letters is a different story, I'm sure. I don't think it has anything to do with that.

• 17:18Jordi Hays?

  Oh, okay.

• 17:19John Coogan?

  Matt Levine writes like multiple blurbs. But the real trick is obviously create a revocable trust and name it the Irrevocable Trust. Can you just do that?

• 17:32Jordi Hays?

  One simple trick.

• 17:33John Coogan?

  One simple trick.

• 17:34Jordi Hays?

  Eben A. lawyers hate this one simple trick.

• 17:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:39Jordi Hays?

  I am wondering, like, if this is very common.

• 17:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:42Jordi Hays?

  I mean, Matt Levine talks about this, but like, why did Elon not do this during the Twitter buyout?

• 17:46John Coogan?

  That is a good question.

• 17:47Jordi Hays?

  Because it says Elon did sign the contract in his own name.

• 17:50John Coogan?

  In his own name.

• 17:51Jordi Hays?

  Which he could have just done to the trust, and then he could have-

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Backed out when he wanted to?

• 17:54John Coogan?

  Well, I mean, one thing is like, it feels like Elon like just rips checks and is was very much just like, yeah, I'm good for it. I'm going for it. I don't want to play this game at all. Like, I, because I'm all in. You have the full faith and credit of the bank of Elon Musk, essentially.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, also, do we even know that like, this is like legally feasible, that you can just revoke the trust? Like, is that just like 100% totally fine? Has that happened before?

• 18:19John Coogan?

  Yeah, I, that's a good question. I don't know if it, I don't, I actually don't know if it's happened before. But it certainly seems like something that you are going to, like, we, we talked about with like, that when you make an offer for a big company, there's like, the expected value of the close. And saying, hey, we have this backstop is something that increases the probability that you close, that the financing condition is met. But then saying, okay, we're doing it in a trust or a revocable trust, takes that down a little bit. But again, there's a world where all of the different capital

• 18:59John Coogan?

  providers lined up, and you're not even talking about trust, revocable or irrevocable, because you never get there, because all the different funds are saying, are jumping. I, I want to get in. I, I have to get my stake. I want 10% of this. Here's 10 billion. I'm ready to, I'm ready to go. And so you don't even care about the backstop, or you don't care about the trust, because everyone's lining up. The only reason that maybe they're in this scenario is because it feels like, it feels like Warner Brothers did actually sort of kick the tires on the Paramount deal, and get to the end state of evaluating it and saying, oh, well, like, we've heard, you know, you, you mentioned Jared Kushner's

• 19:42John Coogan?

  in, like, is affinity partners really in? And when they pushed them, affinity partners just seemed like they might be out. I don't know. I don't know exactly what happened. But there's a variety of, of stakeholders that came in. And the level of, it's not just that they were thumbs up, thumbs down. There were some that were, that people said that they were thumbs up, they wound up being thumbs down. Some of them were, you know, here and they wound up being there, you know, a little, little bit edgy, depending on a lot of different folks where it's like, you know, it's like putting together any other financing round, like, you know, ideally, every, every investor that goes into a seed stage company or a series A company is like, yes, I'm good regardless of who else is in the round. Every once in a while, you get VCs who say, yeah, I'll sign a term sheet, but term sheets are non-binding and we'll see how the round pencils out.

• 20:27John Coogan?

  I'll, I'll sit on this signature. I'm not going to sign this, I'm not going to wire.

• 20:30Jordi Hays?

  Or they would give a verbal and thinking that Sequoia is going to come in.

• 20:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:35Jordi Hays?

  Sequoia doesn't.

• 20:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:36Jordi Hays?

  And then they're like, oh.

• 20:37John Coogan?

  Or vice versa.

• 20:38Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 20:39John Coogan?

  They give the, they give the verbal, they sit on it, they're not wiring, they're maybe leaning back and then Sequoia comes in or Founder's Fund or Andreessen or someone comes in and then they're like, wait, wait, wait, you said that I could get 2% of this company for 100K, like, wow, like, give me my terms. And you're like, you didn't sign that doc, you were very much leaning out. I've been in that situation. It's, it's never super fun, never super fun conversation. But, you know, it ain't over till the, till the bank.

• 21:08Jordi Hays?

  One, a little bit more from Matt Levine, he's talking about lockups, specifically SpaceX. We all know they're trying to go public at a one and a half trillion dollar valuation. They want to raise 30 billion of stock, sorry, 30 billion via the IPO. And Matt says the raise is not that big relative to the valuation. But then he says, the problem is not 30 billion, the problem is the other 1.47 trillion. And he goes on to say, what happens if 500 billion of SpaceX stock is unlocked, like at a single moment? And people are like, well, I've been locked up for, I have had limited liquidity for.

• 21:51Jordi Hays?

  Let's say you're an employee who's been there 10, 15 years. You're like, there could be a kind of a rush to get liquidity. And so he goes on to say that in the conversations that Wall Street has been having with SpaceX, Anthropic and OpenAI, there is some conversations that would create a scenario with, I'll just read it specifically. Investment bankers are starting to prepare discussing proposed solutions to help win deals. At least two large banks largely ruled out a standard IPO lockup period of either 90 to 180 days and are discussing how to design a staggered lockup release for companies like the ones I mentioned. And then he says, if you're a shareholder of a trillion dollar private company, you're

• 22:35Jordi Hays?

  used to getting limited periodic liquidity events where you can sell shares. Why would that change when the company goes public? So, pretty interesting.

• 22:44John Coogan?

  The dance of taking SpaceX public. It's going to be an interesting year for IPOs. There's a bunch of great companies that are finally mature enough to potentially go out. Let me tell you about Vanta. Automated compliance and security. Vanta's AI powers everything from evidence collection and continuous monitoring to security reviews and vendor risk. There's an article in the Wall Street Journal about a massive IPO. Wall Street gets early taste of hot year expected for IPOs. Shares of a company called Medline began trading in the biggest new stock listing since 2021. Wall Street is getting a glimpse of what could be the biggest year ever for IPOs in the US after four years of choppiness in the market.

• 23:28John Coogan?

  He didn't even let me get to the number. The medical supply company raised $6.3 billion in its stock offering. The stock closed at $41 a share. That's up 41% from its $29 IPO price. So, massive offering. It's the biggest IPO since Rivian, actually, in 2021. And the ticker is MDLN. We're the largest company no one's ever heard of, said the chief executive, Jim Boyle. He said he and his team have spent the past year and a half educating the investment community ahead of the stock offering. You got to tell everyone, what do you do before

• 24:13John Coogan?

  before you ask for their money? Because if you've been operating behind the scenes, no one's going to know to invest or be excited. So the offering could help set the stage for some of the most highly anticipated IPOs with rocket maker SpaceX, AI company Anthropic, and mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac among the companies looking at listings in 2026. OpenAI also rumored. There's a couple of other companies that might go out. It isn't just

• 24:40Jordi Hays?

  There's a bunch of tech, there's a bunch of tech darlings that are are look kind of like infants in comparison to to

• 24:49John Coogan?

  But still might be

• 24:50Jordi Hays?

  But still could be

• 24:51John Coogan?

  Level of maturity to go out.

• 24:52Jordi Hays?

  Very notable.

• 24:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:54Jordi Hays?

  Companies that are basically at Figma scale.

• 24:56John Coogan?

  Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Or or even beyond. But yeah. I mean, for a long time, you know, if you're a $10 billion company in the tens of billions, the decacorns, the any decacorn should be comfortable going out potentially, as long as they're not in some crazy R and D cycle and they actually have the core financials humming at this point. Bankers say their teams have been busy in recent weeks pitching companies to be lead advisor on their IPOs, marking a pickup in activity. Many startups had a shoot going public in recent years. I'm not sure that's entirely true anymore, said Magdalena Henrich, head of U.S. Technology Equity Capital Markets at Bank of America. Bankers are hoping Medline, which is backed

• 25:35John Coogan?

  by Blackstone, Carlyle, and Helman Friedman, helps to close out a positive year for a positive year for IPOs. Well, speaking of Blackstone, we have a little Christmas present under the tree.

• 25:53Jordi Hays?

  Why don't we open it?

• 25:54John Coogan?

  What we have from Blackstone, the good folks over in Blackstone sent us a present. And and we will open it live on the stream here. So have you heard that?

• 26:08John Coogan?

  The CEO of Blackstone, Steve Schwarzman, is becoming a DJ. Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon gave him a stamp of approval and they sent over this very cool tape recorder. I don't know if this is a real tape recorder. I don't know if I have this queued up, but you can maybe hear it. Let's see.

• 26:41John Coogan?

  They went like super viral for this because they made a entire like, they basically clowned every startup vibe reel. Oh, you have a cinematic vibe reel? We had our whole team sing a jingle and filmed it and put it on TV.

• 26:56Jordi Hays?

  Sent it out on a physical.

• 26:56John Coogan?

  And then they sent it out on a physical thing. This is very, very cool. Portable cassette.

• 27:00Jordi Hays?

  Is that, is that made to look like a cassette tape?

• 27:02John Coogan?

  I think it's, no, I think it's actually a cassette. Yeah, this is crazy. Wow.

• 27:08Jordi Hays?

  I didn't even know we knew how to make cassettes.

• 27:10John Coogan?

  This is a very, very good drop. Like just as, as a drop. It's hilarious. It also feels like them leaning in because I know that the response to that Blackstone video was, was not overwhelmingly positive. People are like, what is this? But clearly it's an inside joke and like the team finds it funny and they were doing it tongue in cheek and they were having fun with it. And they had a lot of, a lot of 1980s throwback cameos there.

• 27:34Jordi Hays?

  That's great.

• 27:34John Coogan?

  Anyway, thank you to good folks over at Blackstone for sending over this. And go listen to the full song and watch the video if you haven't already. Numeral, compliance handled. Numeral worries about sales, tax and VAT compliance so you can focus on growth. In our newsletter today, we did a little review of the model wars. Of course, our newsletter, you can get it at tbpn.com. Tech analysis and news. We have a daily op-ed, top headlines and more. Sign up at tbpn.com. So what a year. Just in terms of model releases, August 7th,

• 28:11John Coogan?

  OpenAI releases GPT-5. September 29th, Anthropic releases Claude Sonnet 4.5. Then the day after, OpenAI releases Sora 2. September, the same day, Meta releases the Meta Ray-Bans displays. November 3rd, OpenAI and Amazon announce a partnership valued at 38 billion. November 12th, 5.1 drops from OpenAI.

• 28:36Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 28:36John Coogan?

  November 17th, XAI releases Grok 4.1. November 18th, Google releases Gemini 3. Massive response to that. It's crazy that that was just one month ago.

• 28:48John Coogan?

  November 20th, Nano Banana Pro comes out. Then November 24th, Anthropic releases Claude Opus 4.5. We talked to Shulto about that. And then December 1st, DeepSeek releases DeepSeek version 3.2. And of course, before the end of the year, OpenAI had to fire back with GPT 5.2 on December 11. And then December 17th, Google releases Gemini 3 Flash.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  Also today, I think OpenAI released 5.2 Codex.

• 29:14John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  So like the, you know, coding model version.

• 29:17Jordi Hays?

  They're starting to stagger them out a little bit more.

• 29:19John Coogan?

  Well, I do, I, I.

• 29:21Jordi Hays?

  Which I think is smart, right?

• 29:23John Coogan?

  I was wondering about this with, with Logan. Like, do you think that we will? Do you think there'll be a period where we get on annual release cadences? And it's just like, oh, like the model is like GPT 2026. Like I'm running the 26 model. Or do you think it'll be random?

• 29:38Jordi Hays?

  I think so, but we're not quite at the plateau where I think that would make sense. Like right now, where every company's fighting for market share.

• 29:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:48Jordi Hays?

  And like, if you can release tomorrow.

• 29:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:50Jordi Hays?

  That's a lot better than releasing.

• 29:51John Coogan?

  But there is a world where, there is a world where OpenAI takes 5.1 and 5.2 and says, you know what? That's GPT 6, that's GPT 7, right? Like they could, and people would be like, whoa, this is like really incremental. So they use the point one, but they also didn't do, it's 5.0, 0.1.

• 30:08Jordi Hays?

  I think the reason, I think the reason that there's so much pressure to launch is there's pressure to be at the top of the benchmarks, right? In other product categories. It's not like there's like this like very specific way that you.

• 30:21John Coogan?

  What are you talking about in cars, Nürburgring?

• 30:23Jordi Hays?

  Sure, sure, but I'm talking in like enterprise software typically.

• 30:27John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 30:27Jordi Hays?

  It's not like somebody launches a product and then somebody else launches a product and investors can look at it and be like, well, okay, I think this one is just objectively better.

• 30:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:38Jordi Hays?

  And, and so I think that, you know, just given the, the goal to sit at the top of the benchmarks, you know, there's going to be a massive.

• 30:45John Coogan?

  The benchmark is like ARR numbers that you might give to the press or fundraising, which, you know, traditionally done to every 12 to 18 months, but sometimes can happen four times in a year.

• 30:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 30:57John Coogan?

  For your certain company. What do you think?

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Also, I, I just want to say, Brandon, who wrote the, like, the piece, he said at the end, he said, it seems like the doomers, people who believe AI will turn us all into paperclips have been defanged, which is good. I disagree that that's true.

• 31:10John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  It seems like AI is like, I, I think there's this whole narrative where like, oh, AI is stagnating.

• 31:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  Where it's like, bro, look at the benchmarks. Like, it's like, it's on the trend.

• 31:19John Coogan?

  Look at the benchmarks. They're saturating. It's incredible.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Exactly. If the benchmarks are sat, I mean, what does that tell you if benchmarks are saturating? We need, we, we don't even have good benchmarks anymore because models are way too good.

• 31:28Jordi Hays?

  Gabe says benchmarks are just as useful as a used piece of toilet paper.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's the whole point. If, if models were bad, benchmarks would be useful.

• 31:37John Coogan?

  So, I mean, the, the, the risk is like, is like, um, there was a moment where just multiplying two really, really big numbers together in, in a, on a computer, like, you needed more memory to do like, you know, a, a thousand digits times a thousand digits. What, like, like, your basic calculator had a limit. And then eventually, it got to the point where you have enough RAM that this computer here can sit and, and, I don't know, calculate the number of digits in pi to like, you know, 10,000 digits, right? Probably pretty quickly.

• 32:14John Coogan?

  Progress along that line is not necessarily the same line of progress towards like human labor replacement even. Like, we got calculators that can calculate any math perfectly in fractions of a second. And it was useful in a million ways, but no one's calling that like AGI, ASI, it can do anything. And so-

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, because that's like specific intelligence.

• 32:43John Coogan?

  Exactly, specific intelligence. And so, and so we've created a bunch more lanes of specific intelligence, but people feel still dissatisfied with the fact that, yes, the spikes are getting longer, but it doesn't feel like the intelligence is getting any less spikier. That's what Brandon's feeling. There's nothing about the benchmarks. When you show me a new model card, I'm just like, cool, spiky, the spike's got spikier. Awesome. There's nothing where it's like, oh, okay, it's no longer spiky.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Sure. I mean, like, when I use coding models, they're like way better.

• 33:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's one of the spikes. That's one of the spikes.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Okay, but if you just get enough spikes, then like, what's the difference between a ton of spikes and, you know, just like a circle, right? Like, you know?

• 33:31John Coogan?

  Yeah, this is the, this is the diagram. You've seen the diagram, right?

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:33John Coogan?

  Where it's like, you have the circle with the little tiny spikes where the-

• 33:36Speaker 02

  Also, there are benchmarks that like, there was the VEND, it was like Anthropic VEND, where Claude runs a vending machine.

• 33:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  And beginning of the year, they released the first paper, I don't know when it was, it was like a couple of months ago, they released like the first part of the paper. And Claude was like horrible, had lost a ton of money running the vending machine. Then they, I think today, they released a new one.

• 33:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Where it's like, Claude is profitable.

• 33:56John Coogan?

  Yeah. We need to get you a massive winter coat to get through this AI winter. Because the AI winter is happening, dude. I'm telling you.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  There's no AI winter.

• 34:04John Coogan?

  There is, there is, there's, I mean, it's the age of research, okay? The age of research is the age of winter.

• 34:09Jordi Hays?

  Can you imagine, it's like June next year, it's hot in the Altria, just keep the coat on, buddy, you can't take it off till it's over.

• 34:16John Coogan?

  Till it's over. No, I mean, the progress is-

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Like, people want AI to stagnate so bad. People, so many people want that.

• 34:25John Coogan?

  They do.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  And it's not happening, bro. It's like, the models are getting better.

• 34:30John Coogan?

  Literally, everyone without bags is saying it's stagnating.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Well, no, because all those people are like, oh, like I missed Nvidia or whatever.

• 34:39John Coogan?

  You think Carpathia is like, I missed Nvidia, so I gotta go trash AI.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Well, Carpathia, I think he's not, he's very, I think he's very excited about what AI is like right now.

• 34:48John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:49Jordi Hays?

  Well, I think we can all agree, Tyler, that it's the age of research. But it's also the age of deals.

• 34:56John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 34:57Jordi Hays?

  We gotta talk about, uh, we gotta talk about Trump Media and Technology. This morning, I, uh, woke up and, you know, a lot of people that, uh, you know, do like mental health podcasts, they say, look at your phone within five seconds.

• 35:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:12Jordi Hays?

  Opening your eyes.

• 35:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:13Jordi Hays?

  Just immediately, you know, connect with the internet and just sort of start, uh, kind of marinating in, in all the notifications that you maybe got over the last eight hours.

• 35:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:23Jordi Hays?

  That's what I did this morning. I, I, I opened my eyes. I immediately grabbed my phone. I see this push notification, I think it was from Bloomberg, that Truth Social parent to merge with nuclear fusion firm in a $6 billion deal. Uh, and I thought I was dreaming still because, uh, it just seemed insane. Trump's been so active this year on the, on the deal making side. Who would have thought he had another multi-billion dollar deal, uh, to do this year? So of course, Trump Media and Technology Group, the social media and crypto company, part owned by President Trump, said it would develop a utility scale fusion power plant.

• 36:02John Coogan?

  Fusion, not fission.

• 36:04Jordi Hays?

  Correct.

• 36:05John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 36:06Jordi Hays?

  President Trump's social media company, which recently expanded into streaming and cryptocurrency, is now entering its fourth act. Fusion Power, promising but still a proven source of alternative energy. Uh, uh, DJT and Tay Technologies have, uh, said Thursday they had agreed to an all-stock merger that the company's valued at more than $6 billion. The deal would be a metamorphosis for Trump Media, the money-losing parent company of True Social. Uh, a social media platform that has struggled to gain market share beyond serving as the main online megaphone for President Trump. Uh, Mr. Trump is the company's largest shareholder with a large stake worth more than $1 billion that is held in a trust, where trust, trust maxing, of course, managed by, uh, Don Jr.,

• 36:47Jordi Hays?

  who is a Trump Media board member. The company, based in Sarasota, Florida, has only a few dozen full-time employees and, uh, has recorded tens of millions of losses in recent years.

• 36:59Jordi Hays?

  The merger with TA would create one of the first publicly traded nuclear fusion companies, according to the release. The company said they begin, they intend to begin construction on the first utility scale fusion power plant next year with plans to build additional plants in the future. So the stock is up, of course, up pretty dramatically today. The CEO over at TA, Mitchell Bendinbauer, says, "We've got the tools and the tech and the engineering. What we were lacking was the capital." So I did a, I headed, went over to Gemini and got a little background on TA Technologies. Interesting company.

• 37:38Jordi Hays?

  It's, the TA stands for TriAlpha Energy, which is a pretty, I think a pretty cool name.

• 37:47John Coogan?

  It's also good advice if you're a beta. Just try being alpha.

• 37:51Jordi Hays?

  Or just rebrand.

• 37:52John Coogan?

  Rebrand.

• 37:53Jordi Hays?

  Rebrand to an alpha.

• 37:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:54Jordi Hays?

  Actually, I used, yeah, that was.

• 37:56John Coogan?

  Is that what it is? Tri? Tri?

• 37:59Jordi Hays?

  T R I.

• 38:00John Coogan?

  Not T R Y.

• 38:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 38:01John Coogan?

  Not try being.

• 38:02Jordi Hays?

  TriAlpha.

• 38:03John Coogan?

  Try Sigma. Try, try whatever.

• 38:06Jordi Hays?

  Sigma Energy would be, would be a great name for a small modular reactor company.

• 38:11John Coogan?

  I mean, there's a, there's a trading firm, Two Sigma, and it's two guys.

• 38:14Jordi Hays?

  No, but Sigma, you know, it's a lone wolf.

• 38:16John Coogan?

  You know that they had, they had like a founder breakup because they were literally two sigmas.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  No, because one of them was Two Sigma.

• 38:23John Coogan?

  T O O.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Two O O.

• 38:25John Coogan?

  No, I think the nominative determinism is that, is that they, you put two lone wolves together and it didn't work and they were fighting constantly. And so the Two Sigma guys broke up.

• 38:34Jordi Hays?

  Anyway, so.

• 38:35John Coogan?

  People are going to talk trash about this.

• 38:36Jordi Hays?

  The company was founded in 1998 and spent over 25 years developing a unique approach to fusion that focuses on eight, a neutronic power energy generation that produces no harmful neutron radiation. They have raised from, I believe it's Google, Google, Chevron, and Goldman Sachs, so.

• 38:56John Coogan?

  Wow, okay.

• 38:58Jordi Hays?

  Great to see them all get some liquidity now, or at least, you know, shares in a company that is, is liquid.

• 39:06John Coogan?

  Sure. So, does that mean Google is on the Truth Social cap table now?

• 39:11Jordi Hays?

  Google owns a piece of...

• 39:14John Coogan?

  The president's...

• 39:15Jordi Hays?

  I mean, I actually can't confirm this. It's possible they got some liquidity along the way, but it seems more likely that Google is now, has a nice slug in DJT.

• 39:24John Coogan?

  Truth Social, interesting.

• 39:26Jordi Hays?

  Wait, I didn't even think about that. Because this is happening at the top co.

• 39:30John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 39:31Jordi Hays?

  At DJT, so they own, they have exposure to Fusion, cryptocurrency, social media, and streaming.

• 39:38John Coogan?

  I mean, Google famously never got Google Circles working, their Facebook competitor. They have YouTube, obviously, a behemoth, but in true social networking, you know, they've struggled. Maybe this is a foothold for them.

• 39:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 39:54John Coogan?

  Roll in the entire thing at some point. You know, people are going to talk trash about this, like, oh, what is a, what is a social network doing, building energy assets? But you look at what Amazon's doing, building massive data centers where for AWS, Amazon owns Twitch, that's a social network, it's a streaming platform. What else does Amazon own? Well, they own some diesel generators for backup power at the data centers. Fusion, theoretically cleaner. Who would have thought that out of the Silicon Valley tech people, they would be using diesel while the big guy is, is using clean energy to power his social network? Something there.

• 40:37Jordi Hays?

  Fascinating, fascinating stuff.

• 40:39John Coogan?

  Anyway, let me tell you about Fall, generative media platform for developers. Develop and fine tune models with serverless GPUs and on-demand clusters.

• 40:48Jordi Hays?

  Trey in the chat says, "This is such a weird deal. TAE is a legit company."

• 40:56John Coogan?

  Maybe they're all legit. Maybe they're all going legit. Maybe it works out. I don't know. I mean, Fusion's hard.

• 41:00Jordi Hays?

  What if, uh, Truth Social just puts up monster, monster numbers? I mean, it's kind of funny.

• 41:05John Coogan?

  It's so hard to call what's legit right now.

• 41:08Jordi Hays?

  It really is an interesting, uh, interesting test, given that when I type Truth Social into my browser, uh, basically, effectively, the homepage is just Donald Trump's profile. And they do have a lot of ads on here.

• 41:21John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:22Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, it'll be interesting to understand, like, what is this webpage actually worth?

• 41:29John Coogan?

  Well, we'll find out. I mean, Truth Social, I, I, I think if you went back in time, a year or two ago, when Truth Social was started, which I believe Trump was out of the office. He was not president when he started it. Um, and you asked anyone, like, what will the, what will the terminal value of this asset be? Everyone would be like, like, it's not gonna be over a billion dollars. And then when it went out, it was like, okay, yeah, maybe they expect it, but it's gonna, like, trade down a ton. It's like, I think it's still a multi-billion dollar company, right? DJT? What's the market cap?

• 41:58Jordi Hays?

  Four billion?

• 41:59John Coogan?

  Four billion still? Like, that's, that's higher than a lot of people thought.

• 42:03Jordi Hays?

  That's, it traded up, uh, almost forty percent just today, so.

• 42:09John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, we, we were doing a deep dive on the company a year ago, so, you know.

• 42:13Jordi Hays?

  What categories?

• 42:14John Coogan?

  You know there's alpha here.

• 42:15Jordi Hays?

  What categories is DJT not in?

• 42:19John Coogan?

  Hmm, space, pharma.

• 42:21Jordi Hays?

  Robotics.

• 42:22John Coogan?

  Robotics. Oh, wait, no, no, they're in pharma, right?

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Pharma, so I think TA does have, like, a, yeah. A biotech division? A life sciences division.

• 42:29John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  So, I'm, I'm very bullish on there.

• 42:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  Kind of going into pharma.

• 42:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, you gotta go further out on the sci-fi curve. No one's pitching a time travel company yet. I think that that's an interesting area to get into. You know, what happens after you, you're traveling through space? You must travel through time, the fourth dimension.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, you could break, uh, time travel into life sciences, right? Cause you can have the, um, you freeze yourself.

• 42:52John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  And you wake up in twenty years.

• 42:54John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  You can't go back, though.

• 42:56John Coogan?

  Yeah. Dyson Sphere. No one's, no one's come out and said, we're the company that's going to do the Dyson Sphere. It's been much more incremental decisions.

• 43:05Jordi Hays?

  Oh, Truth Social is also getting into the prediction market game.

• 43:09John Coogan?

  No way.

• 43:10Jordi Hays?

  Launching a native prediction market feature in the app.

• 43:13John Coogan?

  It's crazy that they're not.

• 43:14Jordi Hays?

  I wonder if it'll be like predict, trade on what, trade on the content of Trump's next post.

• 43:20John Coogan?

  Mm hmm. That would be fascinating.

• 43:22Jordi Hays?

  Very fascinating. I mean, it's just an interesting, I am interested to see how the, you know, future presidents approach business, right? Who was the guy with the peanut farm?

• 43:33John Coogan?

  Jimmy Carter.

• 43:34Jordi Hays?

  He got into a little hot water because of his peanut farm. I think he didn't fully divest.

• 43:38John Coogan?

  No, he did divest.

• 43:39Jordi Hays?

  But he still got in hot water?

• 43:41John Coogan?

  No. It was, it's just remarkable because the peanut farm was so small and so insignificant in the US economy and even in his personal balance sheet. But the, the fact that he was saying, look, I don't want any, any idea of impropriety. So I'm going to divest from a small peanut farm that I'm like associated with so that no one can say that I'm in the pocket of big peanut or I'm pro peanut or little peanut. And so the fact that, the fact that Jimmy Carter divested from the peanut farm, he was not, he was not, you know, in big oil or railroad baron or associated with banking. He had, he had very little conflict

• 44:24John Coogan?

  of interest and he reduced it even further. That's always been a sign of like the, what, what great looks like. And it's been a role model for some presidents. Some presidents have looked and said like, well, if Jimmy Carter did it this way, I should also do it this way.

• 44:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 44:38John Coogan?

  Anyway, Gemini 3 Pro, Google's most intelligent model yet, state of the art reasoning, next level vibe coding and deep multimodal understanding. There is a, there is a crazy story in.

• 44:50Jordi Hays?

  Joe Weisenthal, by the way, one, one more. He says, sharing that DJT is up 35% to a new 30 day high. And Joe says, Trump has been in founder mode for a long time, getting all kinds of criticism about the business from people who aren't actually in the arena.

• 45:07John Coogan?

  We, I, it is, it is crazy, the degree to which he is a successful technology founder.

• 45:15John Coogan?

  Truly, like billions of dollars in market cap.

• 45:18Jordi Hays?

  People can take, have their issues with the president, but they cannot deny that, they cannot, they cannot say with a straight face that he is not a technology.

• 45:27John Coogan?

  He's never founded a unicorn tech company.

• 45:29Jordi Hays?

  He's never taken a social media app public.

• 45:31John Coogan?

  You can't say that.

• 45:32Jordi Hays?

  You can't say that. He's never, he's, he's, he's never merged with a nuclear fusion.

• 45:38John Coogan?

  They can't say that.

• 45:39Jordi Hays?

  Company backed by Chevron and Google and Goldman Sachs.

• 45:42John Coogan?

  For sure. Uh, did you use in this, uh, this chart, the AI investment cycle visualized almost one trillion dollars has been invested into AI so far, and that may just be the start. Look at this graph, or this, this is an interesting way to, to visualize the flow of money because we see it as these like moments in time, a $10 billion deal here, a hundred billion dollar deal, deal, deal there. This is showing, uh, the investment over time and you can see, uh, you know, Nvidia flowing to Amazon and, uh, all the different companies. Where's OpenAI? OpenAI is just flowing around. Uh, it's just a, just a cool little like, uh, you know, data visualization. Uh, I, I thought this was, I thought this was fun to look at. Anyway.

• 46:24Jordi Hays?

  Did you see, uh, Brett Adcock has a new startup?

• 46:27John Coogan?

  No.

• 46:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Figure CEO Brett Adcock launches new AI lab with a hundred million in funding.

• 46:33John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 46:33Jordi Hays?

  Brett Adcock, of course, the CEO of robotics startup Figure AI, who we believe might be, might have some big news soon based on, based on their holiday party, Deadmau5, has started a new AI lab called Hark, which will be funded by a hundred million of his personal capital, according to a copy of a memo Adcock sent to Figure, uh, employees and investors on Thursday, seen by Stephanie Palazzolo. The AI lab will be focused on building human-centric AI, which can think proactively, recursively, and care deeply about people. Hark's first cluster of GPUs went online on Monday. The memo said, though, it couldn't be learned how large the cluster was. Adcock will remain the CEO of Figure in addition to his new role at Hark.

• 47:17Jordi Hays?

  Hark continues the trend of AI startup CEOs founding new companies while remaining at their old one. Uh, remember Richard over at U, uh, launched a new, uh, lab himself.

• 47:29Jordi Hays?

  More broadly, well-known researchers and executives have raised billions of dollars for so-called Neolabs in recent months, which hope to exploit new approaches to developing models. Figure previously raised nearly $2 billion in funding from investors, including Parkway, Nvidia, Microsoft, et cetera. So anyways, interesting, interesting that he is diversifying when Figure's valuation has just been going through the roof.

• 47:56John Coogan?

  He also has a company that does metal detectors at schools, right?

• 48:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 48:02John Coogan?

  Something along those lines. He is a serial entrepreneur. He has a bunch of stuff. Anyway, let me tell you about fin.ai, the number one AI agent for customer service. Automate the most complex customer service queries on every channel. Tyler clearly has an alt, Tyler Glale. Tyler clearly put this in the, in the, in the show notes. Tyler, not our Tyler, but this other Tyler, says, "Can't wait for this AI bubble to pop so we can all go back to normal, just like how the internet completely disappeared after the dot com bubble popped. It's another bullish take for AI. It's not going anywhere."

• 48:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 48:37John Coogan?

  You agree?

• 48:38Jordi Hays?

  It's a great take.

• 48:39John Coogan?

  It is a great take. And 18,000 people agree it's a great take. I also think it's a great take. But this doesn't seem so fast takeoff build, more internet build, which is slow takeoff. The internet had a slow takeoff. Everyone thought it was going to be, the internet is the superhighway, it's going to be, you know, 1,000x growth, Yahoo's going to be worth a trillion dollars, like, you know? And then, you know, kind of settled in, took a while for things to, to, to find use cases, find value. But eventually it did transform everything. But this time it's different.

• 49:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this time it's different.

• 49:14John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 49:15Jordi Hays?

  Well, because this time we have the internet, so it's way faster to do distribution.

• 49:17John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 49:18Jordi Hays?

  I don't want to, you weren't even alive, Tyler. I don't even want to, don't.

• 49:22John Coogan?

  I was racking servers in a data center while you were in the cradle.

• 49:30John Coogan?

  Meltem says, "A lot of navel gazing about venture. There are a lot of ways to make a couple hundred million dollars. There are a reasonable number of ways to make a billion. There are very few ways to make tens of billions of dollars. This makes a $1 billion fund with 10x DPI obscenely impressive." Is this a subtweet of someone in particular? Is someone saying this isn't? This isn't? So several, so Mike Chan says, "Ain't no $1 billion fund doing 10x DPI." And Meltem says, "Several have, which is wild."

• 50:01Jordi Hays?

  I'm trying to find in the comments a fund that actually did this, and I can't think of any personally.

• 50:07John Coogan?

  I'm sure they're, I'm sure they're out there. I'm sure they're out there. But, I don't know. It's, it's, it's, yeah. All of that's impressive.

• 50:17Jordi Hays?

  Okay, more importantly, this Chinese streamer cut the Apple Vision Pro's weight in half.

• 50:22John Coogan?

  Whoa, that's genius. I, this is, this is innovation. This is, this is crazy innovation. Wow.

• 50:31Jordi Hays?

  Imagine walking into an office and every person there is just locked in with a balloon.

• 50:35John Coogan?

  This is somehow more cyberpunk than just the default, "Put the big screen on your face." I like this.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  And, and people say the Chinese can only copy and they can't invent new stuff.

• 50:44John Coogan?

  That's not true.

• 50:45Jordi Hays?

  Not true.

• 50:46John Coogan?

  Completely dis, completely disproven with this Vision Pro helium balloon.

• 50:52Jordi Hays?

  This would be, so imagine just being able to, if you're, if you're a class clown coded, which I certainly am, imagine walking around the office and just with a little needle.

• 51:02John Coogan?

  No, no, no, no, no, no.

• 51:03Jordi Hays?

  It doesn't actually, it's not gonna hurt them. It's still strapped to their head.

• 51:07John Coogan?

  But you're popping their balloon, then they have to go get more helium, and helium is a scarce resource.

• 51:11Jordi Hays?

  True, true. But I would hope that, look, he's got a big canister there. He's got plenty, he's got a big.

• 51:16John Coogan?

  You should not be popping this. And you know why? Because Ty in the chat says this should be a blimp. And this is very blimp coded, so you should, you should allow.

• 51:23Jordi Hays?

  I want this guy to make a personal blimp. It's just a, it's just like a harness you can put on with enough helium to just take you up.

• 51:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:32Jordi Hays?

  I think the Mythbusters did that. You just get a bunch of balloons, yeah.

• 51:35John Coogan?

  And, and it worked.

• 51:35Jordi Hays?

  Did they, doing that and then skydiving down would, would be?

• 51:41Jordi Hays?

  Would be pretty cool. You should work on that over the winter break.

• 51:45John Coogan?

  Well, whatever you're watching your Apple Vision Pro, make sure it's restreamed. Go on livestream 30 plus destination. If you want to multi-stream, go to restream.com.

• 51:56John Coogan?

  Oh, this is so, so funny that AlphaTun Capital, did you see this? AlphaTun Capital posts, "Big news. AlphaTun, a ton of alpha. We got a ton of alpha over here at AlphaTun Capital. We're making a historic $30 million strategic investment in Anduril Industries." And they tag them, "We are investing in the future of defense tech and the convergence of decentralized AI with next-gen national security. This is a strategic bet on the companies of the future. This unprecedented investment positions AlphaTun at the forefront of next-generation defense technology infrastructure, marking a pivotal moment in the convergence of public markets and advanced national security capabilities."

• 52:37John Coogan?

  NASDAQ A-Ton. And so they're trying to become an Anduril, like, hold co basically, or...

• 52:43Jordi Hays?

  Treasury company.

• 52:44John Coogan?

  Treasury company. And Palmer just quote tweets them into the stratosphere by saying, "AlphaTun is lying. This is not true." Public heads up to CEO Brittany Kaiser slash Own Your Data Now whistleblower, who is Bitcoin, AlphaTun Capital, that's the, I guess that's the owner of this. "You do not have permission to use my trademarks to defraud your investors." And Brittany says, "Hey Palmer, we signed an agreement to purchase economic exposure to Anduril shares through an SPV and to accumulate more exposure over time and offer access via formal secondary's product. Given our network's demand for your innovative tech, I will issue a clarification."

• 53:28John Coogan?

  And Palmer says, "That isn't what you and your company said, though. To be extremely clear, Anduril has to authorize these types of transfers, and I will not authorize it." Wow. And Sarah Guo is there saying, "So much nonsense fraud happening in these layered SPVs." This is such a crazy, crazy moment.

• 53:47Jordi Hays?

  What is the history of this company? So the company went out at $280 per share in December of 2020. It's now sitting at... Exactly 69 cents.

• 54:00John Coogan?

  Huh.

• 54:00Jordi Hays?

  So, um, I wonder what they have been up to.

• 54:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:05Jordi Hays?

  But yeah, that, that, I mean, that was a crazy, now it looks like somebody, like this looks like an AI bot is just like posting, but this is a public company.

• 54:14John Coogan?

  It, yeah, it does look like just some sort of like complete slop scam. Like you would assume that, you would assume that if you go down this particular funnel, you wind up at like, uh, hey, you know, like, send me some random crypto or something like it, it, it feels very scammy and it's, I mean, it, you know, Palmer is sort of calling it a scam, but, uh, it is a public company, I guess.

• 54:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, uh, I'm sure Andrew Earl's legal counsel will really enjoy.

• 54:43John Coogan?

  Having a nice, calm holiday weekend, I'm sure while they clean this mess up, one of many.

• 54:48Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 54:49John Coogan?

  But, uh, it's a champagne problem.

• 54:50Jordi Hays?

  New point.

• 54:51John Coogan?

  Let's come back to this later because we have our guests in the restream waiting room. While we're bringing them in, let me tell you about cognition, the team behind the AI software engineer Devon, crush your backlog with a personal AI engineering team. Merry Christmas to everyone. We have Brian Armstrong from Coinbase and Tarek is back on the show. Uh, so many repeat guests. It's so great to see both of you. Congratulations on all of the fantastic success. Brian, would you mind kicking us off with a little high level overview of the news? Good to see you.

• 55:23Brian Armstrong?

  Yeah, sure. Good to see you guys again. Well, we had a great product event yesterday in San Francisco. We announced that everything is changed. So we've got stock trading on there. We've got prediction markets. We've got millions of tokens now trading through decentralized, uh, exchanges. We've got simple derivatives, like we, we announced a ton of stuff yesterday and one of the big ones was prediction markets, which we're happy to partner with Kalshi on. We love Kalshi, they've been awesome to work with.

• 55:48John Coogan?

  That's great.

• 55:49Brian Armstrong?

  And, um, prediction markets are huge. They're an important asset class for people who are trading them, but it's also a way for people to get information about what's going to happen in the world. So it's kind of an alternative to traditional media. It's entertainment, it's everything. And, uh, yeah, Kalshi is awesome.

• 56:04John Coogan?

  Uh, so talk to me about how the Kalshi integration actually works. Is it more like, is this a B to B deal? Will a Coinbase customer actually be seeing the Kalshi logo? Will they, will, will they need, if they have two accounts or the accounts linked? How are you thinking about kind of the integration kind of taking shape over the next year? Or however you can talk about it.

• 56:26Brian Armstrong?

  Yeah, well, it's a white labeled integration and Tarek can talk more about his strategy of being a provider to lots of different companies. So it made it really easy to integrate. I mean, it's not an exclusive arrangement, right? So we can integrate with other ones, we could launch our own. But for right now, we're very happy building on top of Kalshi has allowed us to get to market really quickly. And from a Coinbase point of view, I'd say just, you know, TradFi and crypto is intersecting, or you could say, another way to say it would be that crypto is just eating all financial services. So Coinbase is the leader in the space. We've got the most trusted brand, we've got the most deep crypto expertise, we've got, we're storing more crypto than any other company in the world by far, about $500 billion of assets. And so if they can trade everything where their assets reside, it's our key to winning.

• 57:10John Coogan?

  Tarek, take me through where, like, how this plays into your growth strategy, your growth trajectory for the next year. Is this just a new way, a new top of funnel? Is this actually building up more liquidity, opening up different markets? Are we going to see different Kalshi markets because of this partnership? How do you think things are going to evolve over the next year?

• 57:35Tarek Mansour?

  Yeah, maybe let me answer actually at the personal level. You know, I don't know if you saw the Wanda Street yesterday, which is funny, the first time we actually both interfaced with Coinbase was when we got the $100 of free crypto.

• 57:45John Coogan?

  No way.

• 57:46Tarek Mansour?

  Our freshman year at MIT.

• 57:48John Coogan?

  Amazing.

• 57:48Tarek Mansour?

  Nice. You know, so we had to sign up, we got the $100 and like, you know, a decade later, we're partnering with Coinbase, just like an amazing kind of personal moment. But from a person, from a company perspective, our goal has been sort of there's the first party product, the Kalshi.com, but you know, at the same time, we're building an exchange and each of these products require liquidity. And liquidity has a bit of a sort of this aspect of more liquidity that gets more liquidity. And as we partner with sort of brokerages or, you know, large platform with, as Brian said, like huge customer base, huge deposits, that brings more flow to the exchange, which improves the liquidity and thus the product for everybody else, including, you know, Coinbase itself. So we're very excited about this partnership. You know, I believe,

• 58:30Tarek Mansour?

  you know, there's going to be like a long kind of range of markets available on Coinbase that people can participate in. And over time, we're going to be adding increasingly more markets. So lots, lots of work to do. This is just the start.

• 58:46Jordi Hays?

  How, like, you guys spend a ton of time talking to users, and I also feel like you guys have both gone viral for different things that you've talked about related to prediction markets over the last, over the last couple of weeks. And everybody online is going to form their opinion of why prediction markets are good or bad, or this or that, but like, how, uh, yeah, maybe I just kind of want to understand like how, how, how consumers feel. Uh, maybe on your side, Brian, I'm, I'm assuming like you, you and the team spend a bunch of time talking to people and understanding what, what users want out of prediction markets on the Coinbase app and, and what they're most excited about.

• 59:25Brian Armstrong?

  Yeah, well, obviously, sports is such a big category that is driving a lot of demand right now, and I think that that's an important use case that we see from our customers that there's demand for that. Um, you know, I know, I think there's a lot of open questions about how that's going to be treated in society and go through the courts and everything, and, you know. We think ultimately there, the CFTC will have federal preemption here, um, and a bunch of states are, you know, a little grumpy about that, but that's fine. Um, there, there's, but prediction markets is much broader than just sports, right? It's people betting on, um, you know, economic indicators and trying to figure out like, is the Suez Canal going to be open?

• 1:00:01Brian Armstrong?

  Uh, next month and, uh, political outcomes. And I think like the number of markets could just be dramatically higher and like 1% of people are using it as an asset class to trade. But like 99% of people looking at these are using it as a way to figure out what's going to happen in the world next. So it's actually broader. It's something like an alternative to traditional media. I think like, actually, Tarek told me a really powerful idea, which is that policymakers could actually use this to determine what are the best policies to implement, right? Like, let's say you're trying to put out some policy to try to build more housing in San Francisco or to reduce unemployment. You could actually put this on a prediction market, get real signal from the market about what would happen if these were actually implemented, and then use that to choose the best policy. So.

• 1:00:45Brian Armstrong?

  I think prediction markets are a really powerful tool.

• 1:00:48Jordi Hays?

  That, that example in particular, how, like, who are the market participants in that situation? Because I could ima, I mean, I, I think a lot of people's like big, big concern is that you end up with, uh.

• 1:01:00Brian Armstrong?

  Is it like, like?

• 1:01:01Jordi Hays?

  Like, if I'm, if I'm a big, if I'm a big housing developer or something like that, I, I could potentially get in, like, you know, try to influence policy through, like. Sort of like trading that market and maybe so I don't know I think part of why like you got anybody in the prediction market space keeps going viral is like in any of these situations I feel like there ends up being

• 1:01:27Jordi Hays?

  like it's easy to imagine like some kind of negative externalities but I guess that's a case for all new technology.

• 1:01:33Brian Armstrong?

  Yeah, well, Tarek should talk more about it, but I think the game theory is so interesting because there's both there's parties on both sides who stand to gain or lose and if you really believe that the housing market would be better for your business, whatever you can you can go invest in that that contract. But if you're wrong, you stand to lose a bunch of money. So it's actually the best signal that you can get with people having real skin in the game because think about what's the alternative? It's essentially pollsters like running around and surveying people and there's kind of like people's revealed preference versus their stated preference. Like sometimes people will state, oh, my preference is X. But the revealed preference turns out to be actually something different because there's real skin in the game. So I think prediction markets have much stronger signal than traditional polling, but I don't know, Tarek, you're the expert here. What's what do you think?

• 1:02:19Tarek Mansour?

  We've dealt with this a lot, right? Back last year when we were fighting the government to legalize election markets and we won that lawsuit. The criticism was could people kind of use money to influence the the odds, move them up or down in either way? And, you know, the the best argument for that is like, well, if you really wanted to sort of influence the perception of who's going to win an election or, you know, whether a certain policy is good or bad, you would influence the polls. It's super easy. There's no cost. You can sample in a certain way. You can. There's all sorts of ways where you can bias it. Or you can go on TV and say a bunch of things, which is how most of us get informed about what's happening in the world today, right? Like you can tweet or say a bunch of things with no skin in game or repercussions. And like Brian said,

• 1:03:02Tarek Mansour?

  the elegant thing about prediction markets is there's a very strong monetary incentive to be truthful. And a very strong monetary disincentive to lie. You know, people don't lie when money is involved. And so that's how over time prediction markets tend to be a more accurate gauge about what's going to happen, but in this specific example about what we should do when it comes to certain policies.

• 1:03:23Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and what you said, we can certainly, you know, because the debate around which markets are genuinely sort of valuable and necessary and all that stuff will continue for a long time, but very much-

• 1:03:38John Coogan?

  Is there a meaningful distinction there around like positive sum markets versus zero sum markets? It feels like that might be sort of some of the vibe shift that's happening is like if you, if you, if you create a financial product that allows people to invest in this, you know, the American stock market broadly, it's gone up historically, it's most likely positive sum, but you know, there can only be one winner of the Super Bowl. And so it's sort of a zero sum market. Is that a reasonable like framework to think about where the activity is shifting? We're shifting from maybe more positive sum markets to zero sum, or is that not a factor?

• 1:04:17Tarek Mansour?

  I mean, Brian, let me know what you think, but I don't think so. I mean, the derivatives markets, so options or futures, all of these markets have historically been zero sum.

• 1:04:25John Coogan?

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:04:26Tarek Mansour?

  Right, and but they're still very useful.

• 1:04:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:29Tarek Mansour?

  And you know, people usually criticize these markets, the main criticism is they're speculators.

• 1:04:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:33Tarek Mansour?

  People that are sort of like speculating on an outcome and-

• 1:04:36John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:04:36Tarek Mansour?

  And that's okay, because without speculators, you don't get the benefits. You don't get the price and forecasting benefits.

• 1:04:41John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:04:41Tarek Mansour?

  And if there are certain people that want to hedge on something, like they are adversely impacted by something going on, like I don't know, Brexit happening or election going a certain way or the other, or even the sports markets, which happens pretty often, they kind of need the liquidity. And so the healthy balance is basically a balance between sort of people that like drive usefulness out of the markets and speculators. And that's how any of these traditional markets operates.

• 1:05:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think, I think one thing that's undeniable is that it's, it's a very entertaining experience just to use the data, like scrolling and trying to understand and this idea of, of, you know, having, having visibility into things that could become the future headlines of the world. And I, I appreciate that that is a sort of a public benefit by, that is created through-

• 1:05:28Jordi Hays?

  People that are choosing to trade these markets.

• 1:05:30John Coogan?

  Do you have any insight into, I mean, Brian, you've done a great job at running a firm that winds up servicing institutional investors as well and institutions in addition to consumers. And there's been some viral chatter around prediction markets potentially either replacing or augmenting insurance products. And the initial reaction to that was like, wait, instead of just getting like fire insurance, I have to be like trading a contract every single day. But I was actually thinking about like, maybe in the future, there's a new insurance firm that's using some sort of prediction market under the hood. Have you thought about what the role of institutions in a world where the liquidity around prediction

• 1:06:15John Coogan?

  markets is increasing? How do institutions come in and actually maybe build products around prediction markets that have value to a different consumer?

• 1:06:24Brian Armstrong?

  Yeah, well, just zooming out, I mean, you're correct. Coinbase is serving multiple different customer segments. So like the Coinbase retail app is what a lot of people know us for. That's probably the most comparable to Robinhood, for instance. But we also have product for businesses. We have a product for institutions that's deleting. We have a developer platform. We have a self custodial wallet. So we're doing a lot of different things. On the prediction market for insurance point of view, I mean, that's an interesting idea. Actually, I hadn't looked too much into that. I think institutions are going to start trading prediction markets. I doubt that'll be the first place they go, but I could see them using that over time.

• 1:06:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's clearly like we're at the very early stages of all this. I am interested in some of the other Coinbase launches. Can you take us through some of the other stuffs, particularly Coinbase Advisor? I'm interested in just any time a big company has a ton of data and is actually surfacing something that's AI powered. How do you think about delivering that product? What were the trade offs that you made and how will you be measuring success?

• 1:07:32Brian Armstrong?

  Yeah, so Coinbase Advisor is there to help you manage your financial life. And it can ingest all the information from your portfolio. It also knows your preferences around risk tolerance. And you can do anything in there from asking it to, hey, help me build a better portfolio, to earn more yield, or look for opportunities in the market around X, Y, or Z. But it can also prompt you with things that you might have not even known to ask about, right? So every day, it's out there kind of ingesting the information on the internet with some context about what you need and want. And it'll present opportunity to you at time about macro events happening in the market, which might create trading opportunities. So I think, just broadly, we think that AI is useful for, it's kind of a barbell, right?

• 1:08:16Brian Armstrong?

  It's useful for a segment of people who might not have as much financial literacy as they want, or how to, maybe not even understand how to use all of these tools. But it's also powerful for advanced traders who just want to eliminate repetitive tasks and toil that everybody has to deal with in their financial life, right? So AI is disrupting every business out there, like financial services is no exception. And we want to make sure we're leading on that front.

• 1:08:43John Coogan?

  You mentioned preemption. Can you both maybe give me a little tour of any expectations or what you're looking for in Washington in 2026? What are you watching? What do you, what do you think the US government needs to get right for your industries to succeed in 2026?

• 1:09:09Brian Armstrong?

  Well, I'll have to start, and then, Tarek, I'll turn it to you. The main thing Coinbase is focused on is actually getting market structure legislation passed. So you may recall, like, the Clarity Act went through the House already. It got a strong bipartisan vote. The Senate is now deliberating in the Senate Ag and Senate Banking Committees, their own draft text for market structure legislation. So that would be a landmark piece of legislation if it goes through to complement the Genius Act, which went through for stablecoins earlier this year. So that's where we're primarily focused, and we're, it's looking positive that in early 2026, the Senate committees will vote on that and fingers crossed. Now, there's a whole other separate work stream around prediction markets, but I don't know. Tarek, you want to touch on that?

• 1:09:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, Brian, I know you have to jump, so feel free to take off. I think you had a hard out, but you're welcome.

• 1:09:54Brian Armstrong?

  I'm good for a few minutes.

• 1:09:56Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, Tarek, I'd love to hear from a regulatory standpoint, how you're looking at 2026.

• 1:10:01John Coogan?

  What you're monitoring?

• 1:10:03Tarek Mansour?

  Yeah, I mean, I think the state of the world right now is actually relatively clear, at least in our shared views. We just started and launched a coalition on prediction markets a week ago and, you know, there's a number of participants in it, including Coinbase. And really, kind of, it's all about clarifying and making sure that everybody understands that financial markets are regulated at the federal level and not a state-by-state thing. And yes, you know, as the financial markets expand and they kind of touch more people, as you build financial markets that are sort of relatable to a larger audience, there are going to be some interests that are going to get ruffled, including some state interests, casinos or others. And so it's not too surprising there's sort of opposition.

• 1:10:44Tarek Mansour?

  It usually means that we're on to something big and, you know, there's reinvention happening. So really, I think as the court sort of like, the whole process kind of plays out, it's about sort of proving our side of the case, and I think that's going pretty well so far. And then educating policymakers about what this is really about, how it works, how it's regulated at the federal level, so that they understand it.

• 1:11:05Jordi Hays?

  Makes a lot of sense. Well, congratulations on the partnership, guys, and all the launches, Brian. You guys have both had a very big year, so.

• 1:11:12John Coogan?

  Yeah, we barely scratched the surface. There's like five more things we didn't get to. You launched this yesterday, but, you know, it's the end of the year. So I hope you all have a fantastic holiday season and hope to see you both on the show in 2026. We'll talk to you soon.

• 1:11:29Brian Armstrong?

  Thanks, guys. The Coinbase team's firing on all cylinders, so it was cool to get a bunch of those announcements out. And people can check out the live stream if they haven't seen it yet.

• 1:11:37John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 1:11:37Brian Armstrong?

  Thanks so much.

• 1:11:38John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 1:11:38Jordi Hays?

  Great catching up, guys. Cheers.

• 1:11:40John Coogan?

  Cheers. Um, let me tell you about Figma. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together.

• 1:11:49Jordi Hays?

  Uh, back to

• 1:11:51John Coogan?

  Okay, now we gotta get to chew by chew by. This is the new phrase. This is the new word you gotta learn. People know

• 1:11:58Jordi Hays?

  Chew by.

• 1:11:58John Coogan?

  People know chopped. People know washed.

• 1:12:01Jordi Hays?

  Bushwick says, uh, this is a screenshot. I don't know if it's hers, but, uh, yeah. So it's re- uh, recently invented the word chew by, which is when something is both chopped and also spiritually Dubai. Examples, So House, Goyard,

• 1:12:17John Coogan?

  Goyard.

• 1:12:18Jordi Hays?

  Pandora, Carbone, Kith. Drop your chew by things in the comments.

• 1:12:22John Coogan?

  You know, I learned, I learned about Kith from this show. You, we, we were doing cars for various personas and you said a Kith BMW M5 or something?

• 1:12:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they have like

• 1:12:35John Coogan?

  Collab?

• 1:12:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they have.

• 1:12:37John Coogan?

  And I had, I had no idea what you meant by that, but now I know, now I know.

• 1:12:40Jordi Hays?

  Very

• 1:12:41John Coogan?

  It's chopped and spiritually Dubai.

• 1:12:42Jordi Hays?

  May as well be a BMW. So House, I gotta say, I think it's spiritually very English. I mean, that's obviously the origin of it, but, uh, but yeah, again, again, the

• 1:12:53John Coogan?

  But is England spiritually Dubai now? Who knows? It's possible.

• 1:13:00John Coogan?

  They're, they're

• 1:13:01Jordi Hays?

  Van Cleef, they're saying.

• 1:13:02John Coogan?

  You gotta go through the, you gotta go through the comments here. Cartier Love Brace, the Drybar, so it's like, oh, there's, eh,

• 1:13:07Jordi Hays?

  Oat milk?

• 1:13:08John Coogan?

  No, it's not, you know.

• 1:13:08Jordi Hays?

  Oat milk is definitely chew by.

• 1:13:11John Coogan?

  Chew by. Better to be chew by than just chopped though.

• 1:13:14Jordi Hays?

  I don't, yeah, but also I don't, I don't wanna, there's a lot of great things about Dubai. You can rent an SF90 for the day for like a grand.

• 1:13:24John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:13:25Jordi Hays?

  I did that at one point, uh, during F1 in, in 2020, uh, 2022.

• 1:13:30John Coogan?

  Foreshadowing. If you ever fall off, people are gonna be calling you chew by for sure.

• 1:13:34Jordi Hays?

  Chew by. Uh, no, I mean, is it like being able to drive around, uh, at the time, a, a $750,000 car for?

• 1:13:44John Coogan?

  Okay. Massive Balenciaga sneakers. I saw these at breakfast this morning. Are those chew by?

• 1:13:51Jordi Hays?

  The chunkiest, kind of rattyest sneakers and John was just shocked and I had to you you kind of predicted that they were like technically nice or expensive footwear.

• 1:14:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:05Jordi Hays?

  But you you were really processing that for a while.

• 1:14:08John Coogan?

  Well, it was like they either came from that or they came from like a like a a gift shop at a at a at a Six Flags. It was one or the other and I was sort of I was sort of dialing it in. I was like it could it could be it could be Six Flags gift shop tier shoe or it could be something extremely exclusive that needed to be waited in line for and cost thousands of dollars and it was the latter. Anyway, Julius AI, the AI data analyst that works for you. Join millions who use Julius to connect their data, ask questions and get insights in seconds. Peter Abiel is Amazon's new AGI head. Teapot needs no introduction to him.

• 1:14:46Jordi Hays?

  Whoa.

• 1:14:47John Coogan?

  GDP. He is a pioneer in robotics and deep reinforcement learning. He has 231,000 citations. He's a professor at UC Berkeley. He is neither chopped nor Dubai. He is Berkeley.

• 1:15:02Jordi Hays?

  He's a number 28 on the menace list.

• 1:15:04John Coogan?

  Let's go.

• 1:15:05Jordi Hays?

  There you go.

• 1:15:06John Coogan?

  Actually, very sad that we didn't get.

• 1:15:08Jordi Hays?

  You gotta do an update.

• 1:15:09John Coogan?

  Get that mentioned here, but I love that that bookworm bookworm engr engineer, bookworm engineer. GDP here is giving a little bit more on him says he has been Amazon's distinguished scientist and vice president and scholar since 2024 focused on advancing AI and robotics. He has advised legendary doctoral candidates like Chelsea Finn of physical intelligence and John Schulman, ex OpenAI, ex Anthropic and now co-founder of Thinking Machines. He's an absolute dog. Let's give it up for Peter Abiel, the new head of AGI at Amazon. Really fantastic news. And bookworm engineer. Thanks for putting this on the timeline. I appreciate you sharing this news.

• 1:15:54John Coogan?

  But also I was thinking about bookworms, the word bookworm. Like, what did that say? When they started using?

• 1:16:01Jordi Hays?

  Just chewing through books.

• 1:16:03John Coogan?

  Is that what it is? Or is it like, they saw books as slop? They saw books as, you know, oh, you're a bookworm. You're worming around on the ground. You're a slug.

• 1:16:13Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so I looked up the etymology.

• 1:16:15John Coogan?

  Etymology of bookworm.

• 1:16:16Jordi Hays?

  It's insulting to people who read too much comparing them to actual insects that burrowed into and damaged books.

• 1:16:21John Coogan?

  It's brain rot. It's the pre- it's the original brain rot.

• 1:16:24Jordi Hays?

  No, it's not.

• 1:16:25John Coogan?

  It is.

• 1:16:25Jordi Hays?

  No, no, it's not. These are like, if you had a, so if you, somebody leaves a bunch of books in a shed, for example, the bugs are gonna chew into them. I think that's what.

• 1:16:35John Coogan?

  Yes, but it was derogatory.

• 1:16:36Jordi Hays?

  Like a book termite.

• 1:16:37John Coogan?

  It was derogatory.

• 1:16:38Jordi Hays?

  I think of it as like a very.

• 1:16:39John Coogan?

  It was saying, you read too many books, you need to touch grass.

• 1:16:41Jordi Hays?

  You know the very hungry caterpillar?

• 1:16:42John Coogan?

  You need to stop reading books, go outside. What?

• 1:16:43Jordi Hays?

  The very hungry caterpillar?

• 1:16:44John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:16:45Jordi Hays?

  That's how I imagine a bookworm, just, just chomping, just.

• 1:16:48John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. That is the activity. And someone who has brain rot and is on TikTok all day, they are chewing through the feed, for sure. But, when you say someone has brain rot, it's, it's a pejorative, it's negative.

• 1:17:00Jordi Hays?

  Well, the only thing is a bookworm, I never saw that as, as like a negative.

• 1:17:04John Coogan?

  That's because we think of books as high art. We think of them as positive.

• 1:17:07Jordi Hays?

  Saying at some point, maybe people were saying.

• 1:17:09John Coogan?

  You need to, you need to cool it with the books, brother. You need to get outside, touch grass. You go ride a horse.

• 1:17:13Jordi Hays?

  Till the fields.

• 1:17:14John Coogan?

  Go till the fields, exactly. Why are you so obsessed with these books? This new technology is one-shotting you. A, oh, amazing book, you're lost in the world of the book.

• 1:17:23Jordi Hays?

  Hit the mines.

• 1:17:23John Coogan?

  Exactly, exactly. Get outside, go to the forest. Uh, I don't know. I, I, the, the bookworm thing, it makes me feel that at one point, books were, um, uh, were, I mean, there's that famous picture of everyone on the subway reading this, reading the newspaper. And it's like, oh, people are so absorbed with the newspaper. Like, why can't they just log off and like, talk to each other? Because they used to talk to each other, then you gave them a newspaper, they're like, newspaper's better than making a friend over here. Anyway.

• 1:17:48Jordi Hays?

  I, I wonder.

• 1:17:50John Coogan?

  I'm a graphite.dev worm. Graphite.dev, code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. What do you wonder?

• 1:18:00Jordi Hays?

  Oh, uh, just this idea, just this idea that there was a point in the future where everyone if in public spaces like trains, buses, planes, et cetera, was just, just talking.

• 1:18:13John Coogan?

  Oh, a point in the past.

• 1:18:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. It's like when that technology existed, the written word also existed, which implies that people probably kind of always had something that they were like, can you imagine you're sitting down on a train and you have like this book that you've been so excited to read?

• 1:18:30John Coogan?

  Yeah, well, books were invented before trains. That's true.

• 1:18:32Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so the person that the person next to you is like excited, but I want to talk for five hours with strangers today. Like the person with the book is going to be thinking, hey, I came here to read this great book.

• 1:18:45John Coogan?

  But horses are older than books. There was a moment when it was like, hey, we're gonna go over there, lock in, we're riding together, and no, you don't have a book to read. You have to talk to me. You don't have a phone. You don't have a VR headset with a balloon attached.

• 1:19:00Jordi Hays?

  You don't have any brain.

• 1:19:00John Coogan?

  You don't even have a book. You just got me and your horse, you're my horse, your horse, you got me and you, and we're hanging out and talking. And that's the original touching grass that we lost ever since the invention of this book.

• 1:19:13Jordi Hays?

  People don't know how to commute. I wonder if you, I wonder if certain parts on a horse.

• 1:19:17John Coogan?

  I like that you're focused on the commute.

• 1:19:19Jordi Hays?

  No, no, I'm specifically, you just got me thinking, no one commutes to work with a horse anymore.

• 1:19:25John Coogan?

  We don't know how to do it.

• 1:19:26Jordi Hays?

  And in some ways, you could set up kind of like a desk on a hor, you know, on, on the top, and you could be getting some emails done.

• 1:19:34John Coogan?

  Also, underrated, horses effectively self-driving.

• 1:19:37Jordi Hays?

  That's what I'm saying. You have self-driving technology.

• 1:19:39John Coogan?

  It's here.

• 1:19:40Jordi Hays?

  Self-driving, you have horses that are just self-driving.

• 1:19:44John Coogan?

  Because you can just say, hey, boy, go home.

• 1:19:46Jordi Hays?

  Go home.

• 1:19:46John Coogan?

  And the horse knows.

• 1:19:47Jordi Hays?

  Park.

• 1:19:48John Coogan?

  Hey.

• 1:19:48Jordi Hays?

  Park.

• 1:19:49John Coogan?

  I think we got to bring him back.

• 1:19:51Jordi Hays?

  Bring him back.

• 1:19:52John Coogan?

  Return to Privy. Privy makes it easy to build on crypto rails, securely spin up white label wallets, sign transactions, and integrate on-chain infrastructure all through one simple API. Unlike Meta, Microsoft, or Apple, Amazon now has one of the best AI researchers in the world. This is Pedro Domingos, also shouting out Peter Abiel. Everyone loves it. It's fantastic news. Invest like the best has some, has a clip here about Domino's Pizza. It's the best performing stock.

• 1:20:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so Henry.

• 1:20:24John Coogan?

  Can we play this?

• 1:20:25Jordi Hays?

  Ella Bogan. Play this clip.

• 1:20:28Speaker 05

  What was the best small cap company over that 10-year period in the 2010s? Well, actually, it was Domino's Pizza. Why was Domino's so good? Well, if you look at the pizza market in the United States, when Domino's basically started its run, you basically had a third of the market that was like local. And then the other third, we know, right? There's the Nationals, Domino's, Papa John's, Little Caesar's, others. And then the middle third, there used to be in DC, this place called Armand's, that had about 30 places and they had local or geographic scale. But they didn't have the scale of Domino's and they didn't have great pizza.

• 1:21:11Speaker 05

  And what happened was when Domino's started its run, well, first of all, it started by basically making the product a little bit better. But if you talk to Patrick Doyle, you know, who was CEO at the time, and you really study it, what they started doing was if there's three value equations in pizza, it's quality, value, and convenience.

• 1:21:29John Coogan?

  Chad is saying that Domino's is not good. I feel like Domino's is pretty good. I like Domino's.

• 1:21:33Speaker 05

  And technology, we can make convenience a lot better. And so they really invested in their app.

• 1:21:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, Gabe's right. Every few months, the Domino's chart goes viral. It's a classic.

• 1:21:46Speaker 05

  Very early on, they could then. Target that customer more efficiently with couponing, what have you, drive scale through that box. And then when you basically do something well, right, you improve the product, probably was slightly above average, you really iterate on convenience and now you have a direct relationship with those customers, all of a sudden, actually, the brand halo started getting a little bit better, right? Because, and you put all that together against a wonderful business model, the franchise business model, which is, you know, ROI light. And often, those are the best stocks when you go study the markets, because you're already in a, in a physical world business where the technology advantage transitions

• 1:22:29Speaker 05

  into a physical mode advantage, or a distribution, or scale advantage. That's one of the patterns we've observed. We call that, you know, the good to great thesis internally.

• 1:22:38Speaker 02

  Domino's Pizza Tracker, incredibly underrated.

• 1:22:43Jordi Hays?

  It really is. It really is. One of the best pieces of software in history. Domino's, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it's a $15 billion company today, been kind of all over the place over the last five, five years, but all time is truly exceptional. Moving on, we can pull up this landing page that Reggie James is highlighting over at Unitree. We have the Unitree H2 Destiny Awakening. This copy goes pretty hard, you gotta give him that. Tyler, how do you rate it?

• 1:23:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it looks, it's reminiscent of the, I don't want to get it wrong, but there's like the Hindu, like gods, right? They have a bunch of arms.

• 1:23:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  Am I getting this right? Yeah. The face is also very scary. The first Unitree does not have that kind of scary face.

• 1:23:46Jordi Hays?

  They, they, let's hit the gong for the most sus looking.

• 1:23:52Jordi Hays?

  Most sus looking humanoid face to date. They did it. They did it. I was already in favor of banning the sale of Unitree in the United States. Of course, now that I see the face of the H2, I'm even more in favor.

• 1:24:07John Coogan?

  I heard a rumor that there might be some bans coming for something or other.

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so I'm looking at the site. It's like $30,000, which is still, from everything we've heard at least, it seems much cheaper still than American.

• 1:24:21John Coogan?

  That is such an insane landing page.

• 1:24:23Jordi Hays?

  I mean, look at some of the other, can we click through? You see some of these other ones. There's this Unitree H1 on the website that has these like red fans on its hands. If you just pull up the website. And it's very easy to imagine them has saws.

• 1:24:42Jordi Hays?

  Team, how are we doing pulling this up?

• 1:24:44John Coogan?

  There we go.

• 1:24:45Jordi Hays?

  Okay, now, go to the homepage, unitree.com. Go back and then press the arrow on the side.

• 1:24:54John Coogan?

  I'll keep going.

• 1:24:55Jordi Hays?

  These ones.

• 1:24:57Jordi Hays?

  So I think they're like decorative, like it's clearly doing some type of celebration.

• 1:25:02John Coogan?

  It holds pizzas.

• 1:25:02Jordi Hays?

  But imagine if that thing had saws on its hands and it's just walking around. Very, very sketchy.

• 1:25:09John Coogan?

  At the same time, I want to fight one of these so badly. Because I want to know actually how far we are from it being able to kill me. Because I think I still have the edge, even if it had some blades or something. I think I could just kick it really hard in the chest and it just goes down.

• 1:25:26Jordi Hays?

  With blades?

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  Well, they're still very short.

• 1:25:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, they're small and they don't weigh that much. How much does it weigh? I think I got saws. I mean, to be fair, I'm big, but I do think, I do think I could take one of those down pretty easily.

• 1:25:38Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so that would be an amazing montage just for the next, for the next 10 years, for the next 10 years, you fight a humanoid robot every January and we just see the progress.

• 1:25:48John Coogan?

  Yeah. I think we should sneak me into one of those robot fighting leagues and I just get in the octagon with them, just take it down. And they're like, "That's not the point. Why did you destroy our Unitree?" Be like, "I thought this was what it was supposed to do."

• 1:25:59Jordi Hays?

  Interesting. Gabe says Bill Gurley on the Tim Ferriss pod said Unitree didn't want outsiders to check out their factory. That could be, that could...

• 1:26:07John Coogan?

  Why are you leaking that? That's insane.

• 1:26:09Jordi Hays?

  Well, I mean, that's, that's fair.

• 1:26:12John Coogan?

  It's very funny.

• 1:26:13Jordi Hays?

  Uh, well, there could be two reasons. One is they're not making that many and it's all by hand. The other is they have some type of insane alpha that they don't want to share.

• 1:26:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, there's a bunch of reasons.

• 1:26:27John Coogan?

  Or, I don't know. Anyway, tell me, uh, let me tell you about profound. Get your brand mentioned in chat GPT. Reach millions of consumers who just use AI to discover new products and brands. Um, Alex Rampell says, sometimes the market for something done very well is a hundred times the size of the market. Something done, uh, a hundred times the size of the market for something done okay. Um.

• 1:26:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I think about this. I mean, I'm just trying to think of examples. I think of this in the context, even just of the power law, right? You have like the best company in a category being worth a hundred times. But, uh, this also, I feel like can happen where maybe there's no market for something at all. And then somebody comes in and makes something great. And suddenly,

• 1:27:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, that's certainly, that's certainly the, the entire story of AI, which is probably what he was, uh, you know, thinking of, uh, was just the fact that, uh,

• 1:27:24Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, chatbots, chatbots went through a hype cycle.

• 1:27:27John Coogan?

  And now they're actually good and they're, and it's a huge category. I mean, yeah, we went through a chatbot boom back in like 2017. Do you remember?

• 1:27:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:34John Coogan?

  Yeah. And I mean, the market cap, I'm sure there were some chatbot companies like delivered some value. I mean, when you use like the American Airlines app, like there's still like some Q and A, some business logic of like phone trees essentially are chatbots. Uh, and I'm sure some of those companies are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Some of them, there might even be a few unicorns there, but it's certainly not this like insane power law outcome. Uh, now it is because we went from, uh, very poorly done chatbots to amazing revolutionary chatbots. What are you laughing at? Aidsleep.com, exceptional sleep without exception. Sleep, fall asleep faster, sleep deeper, wake up energized. Also in the, in the comments, Alex Rampell, uh, post, somebody, somebody put example Aidsleep,

• 1:28:19John Coogan?

  which is hilarious and awesome.

• 1:28:20Jordi Hays?

  I just seen this post from, from Ben.

• 1:28:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, which one?

• 1:28:24Jordi Hays?

  I put it in the timeline. It's at the bottom of the timeline. Pull it up. Ben says, imagine looking for a new show and finding this.

• 1:28:32John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's so good.

• 1:28:37John Coogan?

  I was just laughing at like, yeah, the sack and the dong doesn't even make noise. You're really.

• 1:28:46Jordi Hays?

  All right, that's enough. My ears are getting blown out. Thank you for that, Ben. Uh, we gotta give, uh, big, uh, congratulations to Veneeth. Uh, he said, one week ago, I got clipped for drinking water. I'm joining XAI to build the future of AI.

• 1:29:02John Coogan?

  Wait, this is the infamous photo too. Wow. This is the photo that, that caused all the Klein dust up, but wow. Uh, congratulations, Veneeth. That's incredible. Uh, hilarious. Overnight success. And what a great way to lean in, have some fun, you know, not take yourself too seriously. Although clearly a very serious engineer because he's got a job working on macro hard. No way. He's on, he's on the macro hard team going up against Microsoft. Uh, he's 19. He has a computer science degree from Georgia Tech. And, uh, he's got 15,000 followers on the Vinnie Sauce IG slash TikTok. Seems like he's doing all sorts of stuff.

• 1:29:44John Coogan?

  Uh, very fun. Congratulations to him. What, what a hilarious, uh, exchange.

• 1:29:48Jordi Hays?

  Delian is fired up about Jared Isaacman.

• 1:29:53John Coogan?

  Yes. We're very excited.

• 1:29:55Jordi Hays?

  Says, God bless the great United States. Jared is looking fantastic in this, uh, suit.

• 1:30:00John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's so crazy. He's actually been to space. That feels like going forward, can we just make that a prerequisite?

• 1:30:09Jordi Hays?

  Whoa, Scoop.

• 1:30:09John Coogan?

  NASA admin.

• 1:30:10Jordi Hays?

  Future Scoop Hall of Famer Katie Roof is in the chat. She says, thanks for the shout out.

• 1:30:14John Coogan?

  Yo.

• 1:30:15Jordi Hays?

  Sri deserved credit for the scoop too. Credit to Sri.

• 1:30:18John Coogan?

  Credit to Sri.

• 1:30:19Jordi Hays?

  Sorry to, to give all the love to Katie, but.

• 1:30:21John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:21Jordi Hays?

  She's everywhere. She's an animal, but, uh, great, great.

• 1:30:25John Coogan?

  Should we make, should we make going to space a prerequisite for being NASA administrator? Or on your first day on the job, they just gotta blast you into space? I think it's just like, it's, it needs to be in the orientation. How can you go back? Your whole job is space. You've never been and your predecessors been and you haven't.

• 1:30:43Jordi Hays?

  Oh, you wanna, you wanna, you wanna help us rule the stars?

• 1:30:47John Coogan?

  But you've never tasted zero Gs. What are we doing here? We gotta, we, this has to be a prerogative. Bake it into the.

• 1:30:54Jordi Hays?

  But he has, he has been in, he's been in.

• 1:30:57John Coogan?

  He's been to space, but, and so like, you know, now there's this question about like, well, what about the next administrator? If the next administrator is like, yeah, like I'd love to go someday. It's like, oh, you can't, it doesn't hit the same as the last guy. Like, you gotta go.

• 1:31:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, Jared told me it's great. I'm excited to be stewarding this, this effort for the United States. I hope to go at some point myself.

• 1:31:19John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, I, I, I have a lot of strong opinions about space. Haven't been yet, but you can trust me, I'm gonna lay down some really good plans. I got a whole, I really understand it, cause I've read about it a lot. I, I've also watched videos. I've read videos.

• 1:31:34Jordi Hays?

  I've seen all the, the blockbuster movies.

• 1:31:36John Coogan?

  Still haven't been, that's, that's on the to do list. I'm gonna get there soon, but, uh, yeah.

• 1:31:41Jordi Hays?

  It's not even to do list, bucket list.

• 1:31:43John Coogan?

  It's on, it's on the bucket list. No, day one, day one, you're on the top of a rocket when you, when you put your hand on the Bible. I, I don't even know if that's how administration confirmation works, but you say, I swear to duly uphold the, the, the, uh, the, whatever NASA's mission is, to get to the moon and Mars. Uh, they blast you into a rocket in space. Tyler, what do you say?

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  I was saying like, this is like if you're the ambassador to Spain or something, but you've never been to Spain.

• 1:32:10John Coogan?

  That's actually, has an ambassador to another country ever not been to that country? That has to be a, because, do we have an ambassador to North Korea who like can't go, but is still in charge of like ambassadorship? And it's like, if we have an ambassador situation, I'm the guy. Do we have an ambassador to North Korea? Or, or do we just like not even have one?

• 1:32:31Jordi Hays?

  If we have one, we gotta have him on the show.

• 1:32:33John Coogan?

  I would love to.

• 1:32:34Jordi Hays?

  I feel like, I feel like Trump kinda like that, that role is mine.

• 1:32:38John Coogan?

  Okay, I'll handle it. I'll handle it, I'll go over there personally. I'll go over there personally. Um, anyway. Wander.com, book of wander with inspiring views. I get some bad news about Wander. They don't have any wanders in North Korea, but they have them in tons of other great locations. They got hotel-grade amenities, dreamy beds, top-tier cleaning, and 24/7 concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better.

• 1:33:01Jordi Hays?

  Okay, we got some history here. So, according to Gemini, I asked, has US ambassador to a country ever not been to the country? And apparently, James Wadsworth was the ambassador to Turkey in 1960. He was appointed and confirmed as the ambassador, but before he could travel there, a military coup occurred.

• 1:33:21John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:33:22Jordi Hays?

  The US temporarily suspended relations. So, when we don't have diplomatic relations with a country, we obviously don't have an ambassador. That's kind of like, you gotta have some relations. So, we don't have an official ambassador to North Korea.

• 1:33:33John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  So, even recently, Argentina, during 2014 confirmation hearing, Noah Mamet admitted that he had never been to Argentina and didn't speak Spanish.

• 1:33:44John Coogan?

  That's wild. So, you know.

• 1:33:47Speaker 02

  So, maybe it's not that big of a deal.

• 1:33:49John Coogan?

  But I still stand by my original stance. Going forward, in order to be the administrator of NASA, you gotta go to space. Either before you get the job or on day one. But it's gotta be day one. It's gotta be, here's your badge, here's your rocket.

• 1:34:04Jordi Hays?

  So, Anthony Keely, 1885, Keely is a famous historical failed diplomat. He was appointed to Italy, but the Italian government refused him because of past anti-Italian comments. Smart. Then, the US tried to send him to Austria-Hungary, and they also refused him. He resigned without ever serving in either country.

• 1:34:27John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:34:27Jordi Hays?

  So, total, total, total failure. Elon is saying Carmack is awesome.

• 1:34:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, John Carmack and what he.

• 1:34:38Jordi Hays?

  True.

• 1:34:39John Coogan?

  I mean, we don't need to play this whole clip, but Carmack is under, exposed in podcasts.

• 1:34:46Jordi Hays?

  Well, scroll down, because I think it's worth seeing this picture here, if you can. A real picture of Carmack.

• 1:34:53John Coogan?

  That is a real picture. He has been hitting the gym. He looks. He actually did get in insane shape and looks great. And he also has a number of just like insanely good takes where uh somebody would somebody somebody made an AI version of Doom and uh one of the anti AI folks was like, what do you think the crew of the hardworking creators that made Doom would say about this? And Carmack was like, I love it. I would have loved to use AI to build Doom. I love tools and it's a tool for me. It's very helpful, uh which is just funny. And everyone was like, yeah, Carmack's on on our side. What is uh what is going on? So uh so we were quote tweeted by Matthew Zetlin.

• 1:35:35John Coogan?

  We said uh we said that uh that CNBC is not we we our our our take was like CNBC wasn't really breaking through with like the tech community.

• 1:35:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I guess I I was giving a very, I think we gave a very anecdotal take, right?

• 1:35:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, from our perspective.

• 1:35:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I cannot remember. I can I cannot remember CBS content from the last year outside of the last month, right?

• 1:35:57John Coogan?

  Yeah, so so he said, with all due respect to TVPN, I think this gets things a little backwards. CBS is basically unique in the network news business uh in being able to uh generate buzz. Sixty Minutes still has great ratings and other CBS news properties produced, talked about stuff too. Let's see his examples. So he has a he's an older man and a younger woman next to each other.

• 1:36:19Jordi Hays?

  Do you know who that is?

• 1:36:19John Coogan?

  I don't.

• 1:36:20Jordi Hays?

  Really?

• 1:36:21John Coogan?

  I don't.

• 1:36:22Jordi Hays?

  That is uh you're.

• 1:36:24John Coogan?

  He what he does he run the Navy? He has a Navy shirt on.

• 1:36:27Jordi Hays?

  I think he run, I think he runs football.

• 1:36:29John Coogan?

  Okay, football player? Cool.

• 1:36:31Jordi Hays?

  I think he's with his uh.

• 1:36:34John Coogan?

  What position does he play? Isn't he a little old to play football? I thought you had to be like, we had Saquon on the show. I thought you had to be like.

• 1:36:41Jordi Hays?

  His shirt's looking a little.

• 1:36:42John Coogan?

  Thirties, thirties or something, maybe twenties.

• 1:36:44Jordi Hays?

  It's vintage Tyler. Is Bill Belichick a veteran? Or is this?

• 1:36:53John Coogan?

  And then some other stuff.

• 1:36:54Jordi Hays?

  Bill Belichick was never in the military.

• 1:36:56John Coogan?

  No, this is a, this is a good, he said, the reason why Allison wanted CBS and wanted Barry to run it is precisely because it was still capable of creating buzz and generating attention. Okay, cool. Um, this is helpful context. Yeah, I I I like this.

• 1:37:13John Coogan?

  They still got it over there. And yeah, seems, seems, seems, seems good. I don't know. Still, still interesting. Yeah, it does feel like it's breaking through in a different way. It, it feels like it's like, like the, the content is shifting to something that's more, you know, certainly breaking through. I see, I see the clips. I feel like I see the clips more. But I don't know. Anyway, let's, let's watch this clip of Greg Brockman from OpenAI saying, "Compute enabled our first image generation launch and a 32% jump in weekly active users over the following weeks, as well as our latest image generation launch yesterday." We have a lot more coming and need a lot more compute. Let's play this.

• 1:37:55Speaker 06

  OpenAI did not set out with a thesis that compute was the path to progress. It's that we tried everything else and the thing that worked was compute, was scaled.

• 1:38:08Speaker 06

  We are absolutely bursting at the seams with demand for compute relative to our ability to supply that compute. When we look at our launch calendar, the, the single biggest blocker often becomes, okay, but where's the compute going to come from for that? When we had our image generation launch in March that went viral, we did not have enough compute to keep that going. And so we made some very painful decisions to take a bunch of compute from research and move it to our deployment to try to be able to meet the demand. And that was really sacrificing the future for the present. And this is, first of all, a very painful thing because we have so many features, so many products that we want to launch to get held back because we didn't have enough compute. And that what we do not want is to be caught flat footed, where we say, well, two years ago, three years

• 1:38:52Speaker 06

  ago, we should have been planning for more. We want to be ahead of the curve. And the truth is, I do not think we will be. No matter how ambitious we can dream of being right now, I think that the demand will far exceed whatever we, we can think of.

• 1:39:04Jordi Hays?

  Taz in the chat says, "These videos feel like they're going to get satired by some comedian, maybe SNL very soon."

• 1:39:10John Coogan?

  So completely different video style from anything we've seen in Silicon Valley for a while. I, I think there's something really cool about the aesthetics of that video. But shaky camera.

• 1:39:24John Coogan?

  Typically says nervous energy like like as a filmmaker like that's when I would be like, okay, like, you know, we're telling the story of Jordy and, you know, if we're if we're making a movie about Jordy going surfing and there's a moment where he loses his surfboard.

• 1:39:39Jordi Hays?

  Surfboard.

• 1:39:40John Coogan?

  I'm probably gonna be like, let's shake the camera a little bit more. Let's bring some energy to the frame. I got the, look at this, I got the shaky cam going, you know, kind of. Shaky cam, yeah, it's like, there's more energy. It's it's it's a little bit nervous and and it's an odd choice. I love the choice as a differentiator. It's fresh. It's something I haven't seen before, but it is a little odd of a stylistic choice. Like, what is it saying? It it feels a little anxious. But, you know, at least it stands out in the feed and honestly, looks beautiful. Looks cinnamon. It looks, it looks, it looks like it has an opinion. It looks like it has some some some like freshness and some polish that has been commoditized

• 1:40:25John Coogan?

  in a world where everyone has the FX3 on sticks with the long lens and the little bouquet. Like, this stands out, and I think that's very cool. On what he actually said, there's a couple of comments. Louis Tunstall says, this basically confirms Ilya's remark that SSI has sufficient compute for research because it's not being cannibalized by products. We talked to Sarah Guo about this yesterday, that it's a bunch of little projects. You said 10 million. She said not quite that low or something. Wait, you said million?

• 1:40:57Jordi Hays?

  I said a couple million.

• 1:40:58John Coogan?

  Couple million? So, you know, she thinks maybe he's ripping 30 million dollar compute runs, maybe, or something like that, training runs. And Brooks Otterlake didn't like it, or at least had some extra context around the OpenAI video. He said, one of the strangest market marketing videos I've ever seen. Everything about the staging makes it seem like it's supposed to be a positive and inspiring. And that's true. It's very brightly lit. It's really nicely lit. It's high key. It's not dark. It's not contrasty. And then also, when they when they when they show Greg, they show him from a low angle. And so he looks like a hero. It's great framing. It's amazing. But Brooks is saying, like, it looks positive,

• 1:41:41John Coogan?

  inspiring, but if you actually listen to the words, the content of what he's saying, it's a guy saying the company has a serious problem which he does not believe can be solved. But I would take the other side of that and say that it's actually, it's actually a reframing around like the job's not finished, the job's never finished. Our pursuit is endless. There's a world where I think this narrative can wind up being more inspiring. I don't love the idea of a company, like, I don't love.

• 1:42:08Jordi Hays?

  It was maybe just too short of a video, like maybe you needed to show the kind of more positive because, because if you're somebody that's bearish on OpenAI, you're looking at this and being like, wow, they just have to keep spending more and more and more and more and more money and it's never gonna end. It's just a money pit and all, all this stuff. The other way to look at it is like, the more scale we have, the, the more impact we can have, the more customer types we can serve, the more use cases we can deliver on, the more we can actually use AI to make progress. So there's always like a positive spin, but I can definitely see how both the way it was shot plus kind of the way that it kind of cuts off. Maybe it feels like it needed to be more like a five minute video.

• 1:42:47John Coogan?

  I mean, in general, everything, you know, there's a whole meme about like, the meeting could have been a, an email, the email could have been text message. I feel like everything that comes out of AI, like the, the one minute video could be a 10 minute video, the 10 minute video could be a two hour podcast. Like, I want a lot of meat because these are, these are heady issues. And if you think about it from the perspective of like, compare it to space travel, space exploration. If you are, if you're SpaceX and you, you're not going to say like, we're racing towards this definitive moment, boots on the ground on Mars, that's our ASI, we're done then. No, it's like, we're gonna colonize Mars, we're gonna colonize the stars, we're gonna go to Alpha Centauri one day.

• 1:43:28John Coogan?

  And, and, and you know, if, if, if, if you went out there and you were like, look, we gotta get to the moon, we gotta get to Mars, and then we gotta get to Alpha Centauri, and then we gotta get farther away. And you know what? We need more metal. We need more metal to make more rockets. And we need more metal. And every year we're gonna need more metal. And so we really need a lot of metal. You'd be like, yeah, I get it. Like, you're gonna grow this thing forever. You're gonna do something really ambitious. The job's never really over. You're gonna just keep going forever. And that's great. And we accept that in everything else, but the AI narrative has gotten caught up in like, there's this definitive goal, ASI.

• 1:43:57Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 1:43:58John Coogan?

  Superintelligence, and then you're done.

• 1:43:59Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 1:44:00John Coogan?

  And then it's like, okay.

• 1:44:00Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, and people talk about AGI, ASI, and some people are talking about API, artificial puffer intelligence.

• 1:44:08John Coogan?

  Oh, yes, I've heard about this.

• 1:44:10Jordi Hays?

  We have our next guest, actually live here in the studio with us. Can we go to the, can we go to Mr. Puff?

• 1:44:18Jordi Hays?

  Right here.

• 1:44:18John Coogan?

  We set up the, the puffer fish. There we go.

• 1:44:21Jordi Hays?

  There he is. We're puffing.

• 1:44:24John Coogan?

  Here we go. Simon, good to see you. Welcome to the stream.

• 1:44:29Speaker 07

  Uh, good to see you guys too. I'm happy that you give Puffy a prime location there. I'll, I'll speak on Puffy's behalf tonight.

• 1:44:35John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:44:36Jordi Hays?

  Please do. Please do.

• 1:44:37John Coogan?

  Amazing. Uh, anyway, uh, have we told the story of where, how you landed on the, the, the name for the company, the puffer fish? Expand.

• 1:44:46Speaker 07

  Have we?

• 1:44:47John Coogan?

  I don't know. Tell it.

• 1:44:48Jordi Hays?

  Tell, say it again, because it's a good, it's a good story.

• 1:44:50Speaker 07

  There's, there's, there's, there's three stories. Do you want one, two, or three?

• 1:44:54Jordi Hays?

  All of them. But in the time.

• 1:44:57John Coogan?

  I want the truth. And I can handle it.

• 1:44:59Speaker 07

  You want the truth?

• 1:44:59John Coogan?

  Give me the truth.

• 1:45:01Speaker 07

  The truth is the least interesting one of the stories, though. Um, I was in.

• 1:45:05John Coogan?

  I've changed my opinion. I want the interesting one. Lie to me.

• 1:45:10Speaker 07

  It's, it's because, you know, you, that all the data is stored in obx storage, cheap and slow. And then we puff it up into RAM into the disk. And so it's the puffer architecture. That was, uh, that's sort of the, the backwards facing one. The real story was just, oh, this is an emoji that doesn't have, yeah, this is it. This guy.

• 1:45:30Jordi Hays?

  Nobody, nobody claimed, nobody claimed this, this.

• 1:45:34Speaker 07

  I, I stumble upon him outside of a fire station and there we were.

• 1:45:40John Coogan?

  There we go. That's good.

• 1:45:42Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, uh, it's great to have you. It's great to have you on the show. Uh, we caught up at 5:30 AM this morning. You were sharing.

• 1:45:50Speaker 07

  I didn't, I didn't know that people in the LA. Got up that early.

• 1:45:56John Coogan?

  We have to.

• 1:45:57Speaker 07

  This is Joe Bees.

• 1:45:58John Coogan?

  All of America operates on the same market hours. You gotta be up early. A lot of, a lot of people in, in LA who are on something that ties to market hours at all are up super early. Not.

• 1:46:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I, I like to, I like to, I live on the West Coast, but I operate in Eastern.

• 1:46:13John Coogan?

  East Coast mindset.

• 1:46:14Jordi Hays?

  EST.

• 1:46:14Speaker 07

  You like to be there on the floor of the NYSE?

• 1:46:18John Coogan?

  We do.

• 1:46:18Jordi Hays?

  Spiritually, I like to be conscious, you know, while, while the opening bell is rung.

• 1:46:23John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:46:24Speaker 07

  It's fitting. Absolutely fitting.

• 1:46:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it was great. It was great.

• 1:46:26John Coogan?

  We're gonna see you out there soon? Are, are you gonna jump to no funding?

• 1:46:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, pre-IPO round, obviously.

• 1:46:32John Coogan?

  This is sort of a pre-IPO round, right?

• 1:46:34Speaker 07

  I mean,

• 1:46:37Speaker 07

  I like, I like the NYSE vibe, you know, if we're talking about the stock exchange, like I like the vibe. I think Nasdaq has like a tech thing going for it. I just, you know, as someone who grew up in the old world.

• 1:46:49John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:50Speaker 07

  Um, the New York Stock Exchange has a, has a certain appeal, but Nasdaq's also good, you know, I'll, I'll let them fight it out.

• 1:46:57John Coogan?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:46:59Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you can't, you can't, you can't be too obvi- if you're going into a negotiation,

• 1:47:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:04Jordi Hays?

  you can't make it too obvious who, which side you prefer, right? You need two, two horses in a race.

• 1:47:10John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:47:10Jordi Hays?

  Uh, anyways, uh, break down the news. It's been, uh, I don't know, a couple of months since you were on?

• 1:47:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's been a couple of months, uh, when I was in LA and, and spent a bit of time with you guys. Um, what's the news? We,

• 1:47:25Speaker 07

  we got a new investor on board this morning. Uh, so we announced that and doubled down with Locky Groom, uh, the legendary one and only. But most of all, we're just, we're just puffing up. We're trying to get everything to puff. We now have trillions and trillions of objects in TurboPuffer that are all puffing.

• 1:47:46John Coogan?

  I was waiting, I was like, he's not gonna say how much he raised, he's not gonna say the valuation. Will he give us any numbers?

• 1:47:54Jordi Hays?

  This was, this was the perfect way, this was just, when you told me that you were gonna announce the raise and announce no information, other than you just added one investor to the cap table, I thought, that is just a perfect way to just keep, keep mugging the capital markets that are so desperate. I know you have so many, I know you have so many fans out there that, that wanna be a part of Turbopuffer, but it's a great opportunity to say, you can become a part of Turbopuffer, just shut, wind down your fund and start applying for jobs. Turbopuffer Careers.

• 1:48:28Speaker 07

  I would, I would say, I would say that, you know, there's a brilliant mind at Insight, and he ended up just joining, and I think that was a smart move. And I'm trying to, I'm trying to convince more of the, of the capital allocators, including the one who made the puffer fish that's on your table, to just join the company. It's a great way to get on the cap table. But most of all, I mean, the way that I think about this is that they are part of the team, and I think the exam for, for them is who's brought the most value, and you know,

• 1:49:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you were saying, you actually keep a list, right, of, of,

• 1:49:07Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:49:07Jordi Hays?

  A value add, and this, these are people, like, you've kept track of Locky.

• 1:49:12John Coogan?

  It's like a naughty or nice list?

• 1:49:13Jordi Hays?

  Well, no, it's just, it's just a tier list, it's like, how much value have you added? I think every, every person that's reached out to you, Invest, or, you know, you basically just put them in a spreadsheet, and then you just, whenever they do something for the company, you just mark it down, and then you rank them, and that's how you decide who gets...

• 1:49:30John Coogan?

  Do you check it twice?

• 1:49:31Speaker 07

  It's a very meritocratic process, but, you know, the way that I think about it is that I have to go and convince my leadership team, it's like, who's the right person to add? And we like to compose the cap table the same way that we compose the team, right? It's few people, highly concentrated, and people we wanna build a long relationship with. And Thrive has shown us over the past two years, the kinds of mountains that they can move for us. And so that's why we decided to, to add them, and, and allow Locky to also double down, who's also in the absolute S-tier league. So, that's, that's really what happened, and it was very simple.

• 1:50:07Jordi Hays?

  Let's give it up for the absolute S-tier league.

• 1:50:11Jordi Hays?

  People are always talking about tier one. They're not, they're not, they gotta be thinking about the S tier. What about on the customer side? I saw Ivan from Notion shared earlier.

• 1:50:23John Coogan?

  We have a shared Slack channel with you, Simon, and the team. Every message

• 1:50:28Speaker 07

  Could you bring this up?

• 1:50:29John Coogan?

  Within minutes.

• 1:50:30Jordi Hays?

  Pull it up.

• 1:50:31John Coogan?

  Every feature request is always answered. It feels like these guys work at Notion. This is the level of care and support we want from vendors. Bullish of TurboPuffer. That's from Ivan at Notion.

• 1:50:47Speaker 07

  It was, it was so heartwarming. The team just absolutely loved it. And I mean, this is why, that's what we want people to focus on. What do our customers say? What are they doing with TurboPuffer? That's what we care about. Not, not numbers. Like, you know, to me, the fundraising round would be like you showing you my office lease. These are the things that we need to get things done with. But it's not the important thing. The important things are tweets like the one from Ivan. That's what we want to be measured on. And I think I'm just old school in the way that, you know, my, my entrepreneurial example, when I was a kid, was going to my, my grandmother's store every second weekend and just sitting and playing on the floor. And every day when she came home, she was doing all her own accounting and saying, this is how much money we made today. And just talking about her

• 1:51:29Speaker 07

  employees and customers. Those are the things that matter. And those are the things that matter to me and to us and to the culture that we have here. So the tweet from Ivan and many of our other customers today, that's, that's what I want to be measured on.

• 1:51:41Jordi Hays?

  So you're saying making, making money and customer satisfaction are sort of underrated in venture?

• 1:51:48Speaker 07

  I, I think they might be.

• 1:51:52John Coogan?

  What, are there any new interesting case studies that you've noticed this year? How are you kind of describing the actual like benefits, workflows, the implementations, like the value that the companies that you've worked with Anthropic, Cursor, Notion, et cetera? Like, how are you framing the position of the actual product value that they're, that they're, as they deploy it?

• 1:52:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think there's two things, two big things we're seeing. The first is that the first wave of adoption, stage one of adopting AI in SaaS, is essentially, okay, let's connect these LLMs to a bunch of data and try to reason over it, right? The, you know, chat with a document, chat with a document plus. But I think what we're seeing from Linear, from Notion, from Atlassian, from many of these customers, is that they can bring more value if they can connect more data to AI. And so we're just seeing an explosion in data where they're, they have to earn a return on the pricing of the search underneath them. And that's what we can provide with much, much better economics than the alternatives, just because of the way that it's been architected.

• 1:53:02Speaker 07

  So more data into context is what the frontier AI companies are doing. The second thing that we're seeing is that customers want to read, reason over extremely large data sets. We're getting more and more demands of people who are essentially building their own Google, right? Indexing tens or hundreds of billions of documents and wanting to search over them. That's very difficult to pull off. There's, you know, at Meta, at Google, everyone has built custom indexes, but you can pull this off today by dropping TurboPuffer into a Slack channel and just puffing real hard. We can get you to 100 billion. And so we've had to do a lot of R and D for this, to do vector search over 100 billion documents at once with very, very low latency.

• 1:53:47Speaker 07

  And it's taken an enormous amount of engineering to do that with as little compute as possible. And that's been a lot of what we focused on in the past few months. The second thing is that it's not just about searching vectors, right? Vectors are sort of, you give a bunch of data to a model and spits out a number in a coordinate system. And that's really useful. But what's also useful is just searching over text. And we've gotten very good at that. And the state of the art is a library called Lucene. It underpins Elastic and OpenSearch and many of these solutions. And we're now starting to see a similar or better performance. And one of the reasons we can do that is because LLMs, which are often the ones that are querying, Write very long queries, like humans write, you know, a couple of words when we go on Google,

• 1:54:30Speaker 07

  but L L Ms can write very, very long, very precise queries.

• 1:54:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:34Speaker 07

  And those are fundamentally different with a different set of trade offs to process. And we can hyper optimize for some of those trade offs, which align really well with other trade offs we made inside a turbo puffer to serve them at a pace that is very difficult to do on some of the tech that's otherwise out there.

• 1:54:50John Coogan?

  You said that you, can you tell me a little bit more about the hardware constraints that, I mean, you're maybe not fully bumping up against, but everyone is laser focused on GPUs, GPUs, GPUs, maybe TPUs, maybe Tranium, but talk to me about the memory market, the CPU market. There's this article in the Wall Street Journal today, Microns blowout results are bad news for anyone buying a new phone or PC next year. Do you have any context on the shape of the AI build out? And where it's going to impact different hardware sub sectors?

• 1:55:35Speaker 07

  I think we have very intentionally tried to steer clear of GPUs, because if you think there's a lot to get out of CPUs and they're easy to procure, they're in more data centers. When we've worked at vendors that need GPUs, they often have very tight restrictions on what regions they can run in, which might not necessarily be the region that customers are in.

• 1:55:53John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:55:55Speaker 07

  So we were talking to one vendor today where we're trying to get better performance and they only have GPUs right now on the West Coast. And so we're waiting for them to get in the East Coast, right? These things really, really matter. And we are starting to get to the point where we have to go to Google, we have to go to Amazon and we have to request the SKUs ahead of time, which is similar to when I was at Shopify and we would have to do the capacity plan a couple of months before, because the cloud is not infinite when you start to get to turbo puffer scale, to Shopify scale, and you have to do this ahead of time. But it is still infinitely better than back in the day when we had to request these things six months in advance and someone had to go and drill the holes in the walls at the last minute to make things work. But certainly there are also compute restraints on the CPU side. We can't always get the SKUs that we want, the newest CPUs.

• 1:56:40Speaker 07

  So we've also optimized to be able to run on many different generations and types of CPUs in different environments to just stay nimble. How big's the team?

• 1:56:50Speaker 07

  Team is now 22, started the year at 5, so big growth.

• 1:56:55John Coogan?

  Wow, yeah.

• 1:56:55Jordi Hays?

  Wow.

• 1:56:56John Coogan?

  It's moving.

• 1:56:57Jordi Hays?

  Revenue, revenue growing faster.

• 1:56:59John Coogan?

  Love it.

• 1:57:00Jordi Hays?

  What's the biggest fish you've ever caught?

• 1:57:04Speaker 07

  Biggest fish I've ever caught was this, this winter in, in Florida where we were out fishing for barracudas. I was, that's, that's a big fish.

• 1:57:13Jordi Hays?

  You got, you, you guys got one?

• 1:57:15Speaker 07

  Talking of fishing, by the way, when we were renegotiating the contract, I really wanted to get you guys up to Canada to go for some ice fishing.

• 1:57:22John Coogan?

  Someone in the chat says we gotta do a Canada meetup, we gotta make it happen.

• 1:57:26Speaker 07

  Can we, can we address this? Can we address this? So, so can we just negotiate this on air here? I, I will pay probably 10% more.

• 1:57:33John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:57:34Jordi Hays?

  To go.

• 1:57:35Speaker 07

  If you come up to, to the cottage.

• 1:57:36Jordi Hays?

  And do a live ice fishing.

• 1:57:38Speaker 07

  On the lake.

• 1:57:39Jordi Hays?

  Ice fishing show.

• 1:57:39Speaker 07

  We'll do a fire.

• 1:57:40John Coogan?

  What are you gonna pay him? What are you gonna pay him?

• 1:57:44Jordi Hays?

  Shares.

• 1:57:44Speaker 07

  What are we gonna pay?

• 1:57:45Jordi Hays?

  Shares.

• 1:57:46John Coogan?

  Canadian dollars?

• 1:57:46Speaker 07

  Oh, you want turbo puffer shares?

• 1:57:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. As much as I love, as much, as much as I love ice fishing, no, we, we, we're, we're working out the travel schedule next year and we would love, there's, there's a lot of events.

• 1:58:00John Coogan?

  Chat loves a live debate.

• 1:58:02Jordi Hays?

  There's a lot of events.

• 1:58:02Speaker 07

  You're invited and the, the thing too about the puffer jacket right there we're working on.

• 1:58:07John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:58:08Speaker 07

  Is that I've described this as, this is the, this is the LA guys idea of a Canadian compatible jacket.

• 1:58:16John Coogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:58:18Speaker 07

  So I can't wait to see you guys out there on the ice in this jacket.

• 1:58:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, we're fine.

• 1:58:23Speaker 07

  Getting crossfired.

• 1:58:24Jordi Hays?

  Well, credit to me, I got the original, the original version of the jacket that we both have. I did feel the fabric and I was like, this is not fit for ice fishing. This is gonna, this is gonna get ripped up immediately. So we're coming back.

• 1:58:38Speaker 07

  It needs more puff.

• 1:58:39Jordi Hays?

  More puff, more, more like ripstop, something like that. But, but yeah, watching, watching you guys, the whole team build this year has just been amazing.

• 1:58:47John Coogan?

  The other thing is that the, the, the, the puffer jacket is merely one piece of clothing that is, it's all about layering. This is what I learned when I was in Boston. I'm not, although I am an LA guy.

• 1:58:59Jordi Hays?

  Oh, it's so cold in Boston, John. Oh, wow.

• 1:59:01John Coogan?

  It is cold in Boston. It is cold in Boston and you gotta wear layers. So you gotta layer the TBPN rugby with the turbo puffer, puffer jacket. Maybe throw another TBPN jacket on top, TBPN hat. Once you get the whole merch, every layer, then you'll be warm.

• 1:59:18Jordi Hays?

  Honestly, the thing we've been maybe more focused on is procuring an actual pufferfish for the studio.

• 1:59:23John Coogan?

  We were looking at it.

• 1:59:24Jordi Hays?

  You can get a mud skipper for 20 bucks. That's a kind of.

• 1:59:27John Coogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:59:28Jordi Hays?

  Fahakka.

• 1:59:29Speaker 07

  So this is also like, you know, Jordy, in our chat, there's a lot of ideas and I need to see more action in the studio. Because we were talking about the Mabu pufferfish, right? That can grow to two and a half feet. And needs about a thousand, the Mabu that needs about a thousand dollars of feed every month and shell.

• 1:59:48Speaker 07

  And, and, and, and the reason it needs so much, so much, so many shells is apparently because it has really long teeth. And if they get too long, I think it kind of can end up wall roasting itself. I'm, I'm not sure. The shells to sort of like grind it up. Yeah.

• 2:00:02Jordi Hays?

  Grind it up.

• 2:00:03John Coogan?

  Absolutely insane.

• 2:00:03Jordi Hays?

  Well, we're working on a lot of stuff.

• 2:00:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:06Jordi Hays?

  But, uh.

• 2:00:07John Coogan?

  There's a lot of VCs that have huge fish tanks. I know one that has a million dollar fish tank, I believe. You had to go.

• 2:00:12Jordi Hays?

  Maybe that's your next, maybe that's the next round.

• 2:00:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:14Jordi Hays?

  That's the next round.

• 2:00:15John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Find a VC, pick the VC to do the next round based on their experience with fish tanks.

• 2:00:21Speaker 07

  Yeah. Look, if you, if you have, if you're out there and you have a Mabu pufferfish and you're in the Bay Area, like I'm coming.

• 2:00:28John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:00:28Speaker 07

  I want to see it.

• 2:00:29John Coogan?

  You want to see it. Oh, this is the way to get.

• 2:00:31Speaker 07

  At feeding time.

• 2:00:32John Coogan?

  With Simon.

• 2:00:32Speaker 07

  I want to come at feeding time.

• 2:00:33Jordi Hays?

  Kind of a one for one. It's like if you, for every dollar you, you put into pufferfish conservation and restoration, you can put a dollar in to turbo puffer at a $10 billion valuation. It seems like a good trade.

• 2:00:50Speaker 07

  Yeah, 10 billion. I like that. We could do that.

• 2:00:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, there you go. So there is a price.

• 2:00:54Jordi Hays?

  There is a price.

• 2:00:56John Coogan?

  He's not saying no to VCs.

• 2:00:58Speaker 07

  Hey, we're talking charity here. We're talking charity.

• 2:01:00Jordi Hays?

  It's about the char, it's about the charity angle.

• 2:01:04John Coogan?

  That's great.

• 2:01:04Jordi Hays?

  Uh, anyways, uh, you guys have had a massive year and, and it's been, it's been an honor to watch you guys cook and puff. And I can't wait to see what the team does in 2027.

• 2:01:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:16Jordi Hays?

  It's been an honor to puff for you guys too.

• 2:01:17John Coogan?

  It's been an honor to puff.

• 2:01:19Jordi Hays?

  Talk. Goodbye, goodbye, Puffy.

• 2:01:22John Coogan?

  Goodbye, always with us.

• 2:01:24Jordi Hays?

  Take care.

• 2:01:24John Coogan?

  In spirit.

• 2:01:25Jordi Hays?

  Take care.

• 2:01:26John Coogan?

  See ya. Goodbye. Well, um, let's go back to, do you know how elite the Puck News readership is? They're so elite that, uh, when you go to subscribe to Puck News and they ask you to select your income level, the options are less than a hundred thousand, then a hundred thousand to five hundred thousand, then five hundred thousand to a million, a million to five million, five million or more. Absolute elite level audience, uh, obviously, uh, we know you're rich, but what kind of rich? This is the, this is the Puck News audience, uh, if you're, if you're, if you're a Puck News subscriber, um, you're, you're a power player.

• 2:02:05Jordi Hays?

  I don't think this says as much. I mean, think, I, I, I mean, think, think about it. Just think about minimum wage, right? Uh, are they really going to break out the sub hundred K category that much? Like, do they need it below, below $10,000 a year? Maybe you got a summer internship, a little sprint.

• 2:02:22John Coogan?

  I just think it's a great, it's a great dropdown.

• 2:02:25Jordi Hays?

  I would, if anything, I would suggest they go higher.

• 2:02:27John Coogan?

  To get high, yeah, higher.

• 2:02:28Jordi Hays?

  It, it, it should be, if it's not five million or more, it should just be prefer not to answer.

• 2:02:34John Coogan?

  Yeah. Um, in other news, Tim Sweeney says that Fortnite will not return to iOS in Japan in 2025 as promised. Apple was required to open up the iOS, uh, iOS to competing stores today. And instead of doing so, honestly, they have launched another travesty of obstruction and law breaking and gross disrespect to the government and people in Japan. Apple chose poorly again.

• 2:02:57Jordi Hays?

  Tim Sweeney is really Apple's worst nightmare.

• 2:02:59John Coogan?

  It's crazy. Also, it's like, it's like very few companies have like such an outspoken just hater, you know?

• 2:03:07Jordi Hays?

  Like. He was heavily, heavily, heavily, heavily incentivized.

• 2:03:10John Coogan?

  I guess, I guess Sam Altman has Elon, who's kind of his hater, you know?

• 2:03:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but I don't even know.

• 2:03:15John Coogan?

  Hater in chief.

• 2:03:16Jordi Hays?

  Same way, where like Tim basically, yeah.

• 2:03:19John Coogan?

  Incredibly inspiring to grind. Like, no one's hating on, I don't know, getbezel.com like this. Shop over 25, 25,000 luxury watches, fully authenticated in-house by Bezel's team of experts. You don't have the CEO of a, how big is Epic Games? Tens of billions of dollars? Huge, huge company, right? Uh, you don't have the CEO of a, uh, How big is this market cap? It is privately traded IPO is rumored at 60 billion valuation in 2024 was at 22 billion. I mean, a lot smaller than Apple, actually, 1% of the market cap.

• 2:03:59John Coogan?

  But he is determined to set the record straight about every app store story that breaks. And he's been pushing, he's been pushing. He wants, he wants Fortnite to be free and at least not completely free, but free to, to run their own stores.

• 2:04:15Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 2:04:16John Coogan?

  There's a bunch of companies that were listed as potential targets for Toma Bravo, Vista, Clear Lake, Francisco Partners, et cetera. This is the busted software list, not very nice, but still an interesting slice of the market from Danny Ocean. Some companies in there that I'm familiar with, Bill.com, PagerDuty, Workiva, Blackbaud, Blackline, Alkemi, is that Alkemi Technology? OneStream, SPS. So these are companies that are public, but have, you know, based on this screener have,

• 2:04:55John Coogan?

  you know, good EV to EBITDA multiples where a large software private equity firm could come and take them private. So it's, it's just a fun screen. I don't know, I thought this was interesting. He just screened it himself.

• 2:05:09Jordi Hays?

  In other news, Phil, oh, this post was deleted.

• 2:05:14John Coogan?

  Oh, that's too bad. In other news, adquick.com, out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Plan, buy and measure out of home with precision. Let's, let's keep skipping through. There's a partnership between Boeing Defense and Anduril. Very, very good news for Anduril. Congrats to everyone involved. Boeing says, we're teaming up with Anduril in the U.S. Army's advanced mid-range interceptor competition. Our offering will deliver an affordable, capable solution to counter increasing low-flying mid-range threats. Very exciting for them.

• 2:05:52Jordi Hays?

  Is this the, like a Shahed drone? Do you think that's low-flying mid-range?

• 2:05:57John Coogan?

  No, so mid-range is, is more like a

• 2:06:02John Coogan?

  Is a, it's more like a missile that fires at a

• 2:06:06Jordi Hays?

  Okay.

• 2:06:06John Coogan?

  That, so.

• 2:06:09Jordi Hays?

  So like a Shehade would be low.

• 2:06:11John Coogan?

  If you actually click on the link here, you can see the image of the missile. It looks like a missile battery that goes on like the sort of the back of the truck. Like zoom in on that, you can see that this is the integrated fires protection capability increment two system, obviously, and it's designed to defend fixed and forward operating bases against imminent aerial threats. So this might be what shoots down a Shehade drone, maybe?

• 2:06:33Jordi Hays?

  That's what I was, that's what I was.

• 2:06:34John Coogan?

  Or maybe shoots down, I mean, that missile looks pretty big.

• 2:06:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I was talking about the target.

• 2:06:37John Coogan?

  Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. Yes. So the big picture here is the Army expects the IFPC increment two second interceptor to integrate with and improve existing systems, deliver more robust and enhanced cost effective layered air and missile defense systems for future combat environments. Let's see, this, this partnership underscores our commitment to forming innovative disruptive and agile industry teams that deliver new capabilities to warfighters sooner. You know, I'd like to know more about this. They really didn't lay, lay out much in this press release. It will be funny because you have to be even more, you know, it's like Andrew's, the whole pitch was like, we're going up against the big guys. Now it's like, we're going up with the big guys. We're teaming up.

• 2:07:21John Coogan?

  But of course, on each project, it's like disrupt, but also partner, disrupt the model, disrupt the stagnation. Not necessarily.

• 2:07:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:29John Coogan?

  You know, bitter, bitter rivals. Arkway, this was an interesting.

• 2:07:34Jordi Hays?

  By Caleb Barclay, Arkway.

• 2:07:37John Coogan?

  Oh, funny.

• 2:07:38Jordi Hays?

  A real time 3D engine where anyone can design a home. It is a simulated 3D world where buyers explore, change and decide as light physics, building rules and real products move as one. Very cool. I've seen Redfin playing around with some.

• 2:07:53John Coogan?

  They're back by NDVC.

• 2:07:55Jordi Hays?

  Nice.

• 2:07:56John Coogan?

  And a couple others.

• 2:07:58Jordi Hays?

  Oh, Bryce.

• 2:07:58John Coogan?

  Pretty, pretty, pretty cool.

• 2:08:02John Coogan?

  I, I, I think, yeah, I wonder if this will be, wound up be integrated into Zillow so you can like fully tour the house. This has always been sort of the dream. The Matterport team did a big job like pulling up, like, you know, 3D environments, like, you know, spherical scans of various rooms within a, a, a home that you could see. And a lot of that got, wound, wound up getting integrated to Zillow and Redfin and different house buying projects. But now, people will be able to go in there and design them and make them see, okay, I want to know what it looks like during Christmas. I want to know what this house looks like. Yeah, we'll see. That would be a fun Zillow thing.

• 2:08:46John Coogan?

  Run all the images through Nano Banana, make them nice and crisp, make them nice and Christmasy. So then when you're scrolling around the holidays, you, you get the Christmas spirit.

• 2:08:55Jordi Hays?

  The energy.

• 2:08:56John Coogan?

  Coming through the Zillow listing. Where should we go next? Do you want to, well, we just would need to say congratulations to the Acquired Podcast team. We had Ben David from Acquired on the show a while back, but they did their official 10 year anniversary.

• 2:09:14Jordi Hays?

  I've been listening with Michael Lewis.

• 2:09:16John Coogan?

  With Michael Lewis.

• 2:09:17Jordi Hays?

  In the original Google Garage.

• 2:09:19John Coogan?

  So cool.

• 2:09:20Jordi Hays?

  Very cool.

• 2:09:20John Coogan?

  That. And I love, I, I really, I've been pushing them. It was my idea for them to do video, really. Now, of course, they've, they've been doing video for a very long time.

• 2:09:30Jordi Hays?

  John created video.

• 2:09:31John Coogan?

  But, but, but I was talking to them and I, and I was saying that like, there's so much opportunity. Obviously, they had a lot of that in progress already, but there's so much opportunity for them to go and find unique sets, unique.

• 2:09:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:42John Coogan?

  Add to the storytelling. It's just an extra layer. And they, and they, they're so established. Their business is so set up that I would be super excited to see not just, you know, what is the next story they're going to tell, but where are they going to tell it?

• 2:09:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:58John Coogan?

  That's super interesting. And I think it'll make the clips really shine. I think it's, I think it'll draw a ton of attention. Not that they need any. Everyone's already subscribed. Everyone already listens to all of it.

• 2:10:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I, I loved hearing about their early, just the early days of the show and even, they didn't, they weren't full time until years into building the business.

• 2:10:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:18Jordi Hays?

  Very cool.

• 2:10:19John Coogan?

  Between X and LinkedIn, this has 110 hours of watch time from Hunter Wise, who I saw in the chat

• 2:10:25Jordi Hays?

  Earlier.

• 2:10:27John Coogan?

  How you doing Hunter? This is such a cool, I mean, it's from Ramp, our

• 2:10:33Jordi Hays?

  Well, no, do you remember this game?

• 2:10:36John Coogan?

  Line Rider. Yes, so I never got into Line Rider. I was, I had probably played with it for like two seconds and had a little fun. I was never absorbed in it. I don't think I ever spent more than like a few minutes in it, but I'm familiar with the aesthetic and just a genius idea to use this for, as a storytelling tool. This is the head of storytelling. So, do you actually know the story here? Did Hunter make this himself?

• 2:10:58Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 2:10:58John Coogan?

  That's insane. Did he make it in Line Rider? Or is this like CGI? Is this, is this a, is this like a, this doesn't look like generative AI? But I imagine he actually fired up Line Rider and designed this and, and wrote out, you know, the story that he wanted to tell, all the different fundraising.

• 2:11:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, he actually, uh, he actually made it with Line Rider.

• 2:11:19John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 2:11:20Jordi Hays?

  This is super cool.

• 2:11:21John Coogan?

  That is incredible. Um, what, yeah, this is so, so crazy rampified. Um, okay, so the entire thing is hand drawn and made with line rider.com. Here's the track up into the right. So he actually, so I guess you can also make a, a track that goes, I think you can make the track either accelerate or, or just be based on the gravity. So there, there's little dials that you can turn on how to, whether the, uh, whether the, the line rider is accelerating.

• 2:11:53Jordi Hays?

  Hunter just texted me in real time. He said entire thing hand drawn and made with line rider.com.

• 2:11:57John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 2:11:58Jordi Hays?

  This is modern art.

• 2:11:59John Coogan?

  This is craft. This is craft.

• 2:12:00Jordi Hays?

  People say we don't know how to make cathedrals anymore?

• 2:12:03John Coogan?

  This is cathedrals.

• 2:12:04Jordi Hays?

  Explain this.

• 2:12:05John Coogan?

  This is so cool. Wow. And, and it's so funny because like for the fast, for the, for the last couple of months, you've been sort of saying like the, the startup video is a little bit tired. It's getting sweaty. Like everyone's doing video stuff all the time for every announcement. There's new vibe reel. And it's like, this is a vibe reel. In some ways it has a vibe to it. It's a reel of a bunch of different information, but it stands out so much. It's so good. I love it. It's just like.

• 2:12:35Jordi Hays?

  Hunter saying you need, you need music. It's timed with it. Do we have sound?

• 2:12:39John Coogan?

  Oh, let's play the, let's play the music.

• 2:12:42John Coogan?

  Oh, they're, oh!

• 2:12:43Jordi Hays?

  Oh, wait.

• 2:12:44John Coogan?

  We're gonna get banned for this.

• 2:12:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you gotta mute it. People can, uh...

• 2:12:49John Coogan?

  It won't be the end of the, uh, end of the stream, but, but unfortunately, we, we, we still have fully figured out how to play copyrighted music all the time, and we're worried about it, so we don't, we don't play it all the time. But fantastic selection, because, uh, I love that song, because we've used it in our video.

• 2:13:05Jordi Hays?

  Emily says Barry Weiss is trying to turn CBS News into Substack.

• 2:13:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, so this is...

• 2:13:10Jordi Hays?

  Dylan Byers was scooping.

• 2:13:12John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:13:13Jordi Hays?

  He says Barry Weiss is signing a number of contributors to CBS News, including former National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster, ex-Marine Elliot Ackerman, and cultural analyst Casey Lewis, and chef, food writer Claire DeBo...

• 2:13:27John Coogan?

  DeBoer. Yeah, it's interesting. I, um, I've, obviously, everyone's following this from a political angle. Everyone followed the, the Barry Weiss Free Press story as, from a political angle. Uh, my favorite Free Press writer, and the reason I actually wound up subscribing to the Free Press, and really, like, one of the main columns I read on the Free Press is just Tyler Cowen. And he writes about economics. And like, that's what I, and, and I was like, oh, I, I guess I'm a Free Press reader now, because like, I, I love Tyler, and I'd go and I'd read economics columns.

• 2:14:02Jordi Hays?

  You'd find him anywhere.

• 2:14:03John Coogan?

  And I'll find him anywhere. And so, if you, if you think about some of these, some of these folks, I, I, like, having a number of windows into the, into the platform feels like something Barry is uniquely good at, and I think, I think that, it's, the strategy certainly worked at the Free Press, and it feels like it's continuing to work.

• 2:14:23Jordi Hays?

  Otherwise, meanwhile, Barry announced two new hires in the front office on Wednesday. Chief Operating Officer Sam Siegel and SVP of Talent and Brand Strategy Sophia, and I'm gonna butcher the last name. I also learned this week that Barry plans to sign a number of paid contributors to the network, including the people we just discussed. Some of these deals are structured with a low five-figure upfront advance, plus an additional $1,000 or so for each appearance. These are small deals for the TV news business, historically speaking. But of course, it's a smaller business now. You shared a video with me yesterday about comp around SNL.

• 2:14:59John Coogan?

  SNL.

• 2:15:00Jordi Hays?

  People, actors and comedians that go on SNL. Basically, you know, they're doing, I don't know how many shows they do a year, but they make something like, it's not like a, it's not, it's not exactly like retiring on, on SNL.

• 2:15:12John Coogan?

  It's more of a platform.

• 2:15:13Jordi Hays?

  It's a platform to go on and do other things. And I think all the people that just got mentioned here again are gonna be able to use CBS as a platform to do, to build other businesses.

• 2:15:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it still is a, you know, a huge brand. If you tell your parents, I'm in, I'm gonna be on CBS tonight. It's like, okay, that's a big deal. Um, did you see that, uh, the New York Times called Alexander Wang not an engineer? They said, uh, Mr. Zuckerberg began retooling Meta's AI efforts this spring after its newest AI models underperformed those of competitors. To catch up, he invested in Mr. Wang's startup in June and hired the entrepreneur to be the new chief AI officer. Mr. Wang is not an engineer, but he is seen as one of the best connected AI entrepreneurs. J D Ross has laughed at seeing New York Times say Alex Wang isn't an engineer. When we hired him as an, as a 17-year-old software

• 2:16:04John Coogan?

  engineer, so literally gave him the title engineer, he had ranked as the 10th best competitive programmer in the United States at the, at the IOI. And, uh, and, uh, a non-account fake psycho says, this is a strange way to say that he didn't qualify for the IOI. Only four people per country. Um, there's only four, there's only four real engineers in the country. You have to go to the IOI. You cannot rank.

• 2:16:26Jordi Hays?

  Otherwise, you're non-technical.

• 2:16:28John Coogan?

  But I have a solution. I have a solution. What if, uh, what if Alex Wang buys a train and gets a, gets into being a, a train engineer, train conductor, and he drives a train from his house to Meta campus every day? No one can say he's not an engineer.

• 2:16:44Jordi Hays?

  Getting that rail line set up, even, even half a mile in California might, might take a few decades.

• 2:16:50John Coogan?

  Maybe just two feet. It can just go from MSL to TBD Labs. It can go from one, it can go from Fair to TBD. Uh, and, and, but he should install a train, become a real engineer. Um, what else is?

• 2:17:03Jordi Hays?

  Lovable. Just raised 330 million at a $6.6 billion valuation.

• 2:17:08Jordi Hays?

  Anton says it's been an iconic, insane, wonderful journey so far. Let's give it up for iconic journeys.

• 2:17:15John Coogan?

  For sure.

• 2:17:16Jordi Hays?

  Thank you to everyone who's made this possible.

• 2:17:19John Coogan?

  He's been on a tear. Lovable. Also, Lovable's integrated with ChatGPT now. That's very fun. You can design a website in and link it up. Very cool. The Lovable team's 120 people now, so lots of people doing well. And a bunch of investors. Sales force is in. Databricks is in. Interesting.

• 2:17:38Jordi Hays?

  So this is something that I think everyone has been waiting for.

• 2:17:42John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:17:43Jordi Hays?

  WorldCoin integrated with Tinder. World's verified human badge and privacy preserving age assurance. Bring back the spark to online dating with authentic connection.

• 2:17:54John Coogan?

  I mean, so this actually, it seems like you're somewhat joking, but it does.

• 2:17:59Jordi Hays?

  I'm joking only because.

• 2:18:01John Coogan?

  It does feel like in the age of Nano Banana, like, like, the problem is here. Like, people can use AI to improve their photos like more than ever. And people can create a fake profile and then they can, with character consistency, which is available in all of the chat models now, they can create a photo.

• 2:18:18Jordi Hays?

  Or the whole, like, hold up a picture with this.

• 2:18:21John Coogan?

  Totally, totally, totally. I mean, you could very much, like, it's the pig butchering scam, where you meet someone and you're luring them along. And it's like, normally the tells would be, like, okay, they have like three photos, but if I Google reverse image search, it shows up in someone else's LinkedIn photo. So they stole the photo. Or if I, or like, wait, why haven't they posted a new photo? It's like, no, you can go to their Instagram. Yeah, you were saying, like, check their earlier Instagram. Do they have, you know, have they been online since before the models were created? But it'll be very easy for someone to send an update. They match with someone based on fake images and then they say,

• 2:19:02John Coogan?

  oh yeah, I'm getting coffee. And it's a selfie of them with a coffee and it looks exactly the same character, but in fact, it's a hacker or a scammer. And then all of a sudden they're asking you something. So huge bull case for people wanting this. The bear case is that if you're the WorldCoin authenticated badge on your checkmark, like that could very quickly be like, wow, you're like a nerd, right? Because it's just like, it's just being like very tech.

• 2:19:27Jordi Hays?

  I wonder, I wonder if they're fully white labeling it, or if they actually get the ability to show any branding in the app? I bet they don't.

• 2:19:34John Coogan?

  That's interesting. So the image here, it says, "Complete verification with Tinder." You're about to share these proofs, age verification, privacy. Wait, which one is, which direction is it going? "Now live on Tinder, world's verified badge and privacy preserving. Bring back the spark to online dating." Interesting. I don't know.

• 2:19:57Jordi Hays?

  I wonder if you.

• 2:19:57John Coogan?

  The comments, of course. Never read the comments of something like this. Please, I like some of these people. Rich, whose name is I want, I want a Lambo, I want Lambo, says, "Please don't verify my net worth. Please don't verify my net worth." Very funny. I don't know. I, I, I think that there's, there, there is a, there's.

• 2:20:15Jordi Hays?

  Well, speaking of falling for AI imagery. Somebody posted, uh, uh, what pretty obviously looks like chat, you know, just AI imagery. This is, you know, it's kind of a sad story. Wish her a happy birthday. Kathy Wood says, "Happy birthday, Ava. I can tell that you're full of joy and hope for an amazing life that will help transform the world. May God bless you and your dad in a way that could make your mom proud." Kathy. So very, very nice message, but not clocking the, not clocking the AI. And A Capital says, "You can manage 7.56 billion and still fall for AI slop. There's hope for you yet and on." So anyways.

• 2:20:57John Coogan?

  Well, speaking of, is there some AI slop? Is there not AI slop? I want to watch a couple clips from this new video from F1. Everything you need to know about the Formula One 2026 regulations.

• 2:21:14John Coogan?

  Just wait, buddy. Just wait. So, basically, there are some massive new changes to F1. It seems actually really, really exciting. So, there's, there's straight up different modes. So, there's DRS where normally, the, normally, the, the cars have fins that push, they create more downforce, that creates more traction, so you can get around the corners faster, but the cars are slower on the straights. And so, they have the drag reduction system, DRS. At a certain point in the race, the car can push, the driver can push a button, the, the wing on the back goes flat, that reduces drag, lifts the car off the ground more, you have less traction, would be bad in the corners, but it's great on the straights.

• 2:21:57John Coogan?

  And so, that has been part of the, part of the, the strategy, is when do you deploy DRS, when do you have it available, your positioning, DRS trains, there's all these different things that try and bring in more strategy to a game, to, to, to, to a sport that could, that can be very, very, you know, determined just by the engineering. Whoever has the fastest car just keeps going around the, the, the track, and whoever's in first, after the first lap, wins the whole thing. So, they're trying to inject more chaos, and if we play the video, there's a little bit of, about halfway through, they, they explain a little bit of the new power unit, they explain the, where is it, the, uh, they explain,

• 2:22:40John Coogan?

  there's actually going to be boost systems, boost overtaking recharge. So, around three minutes in, they sort of explain this, so we can play this video.

• 2:22:48Jordi Hays?

  It's interesting that all the names seem to be designed to be more consumer-friendly.

• 2:22:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:54Jordi Hays?

  Like, DRS doesn't mean anything.

• 2:22:56John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:22:56Jordi Hays?

  Boost, and straight mode.

• 2:22:58John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:22:58Jordi Hays?

  Like, these kind of things.

• 2:22:59John Coogan?

  So, listen to this.

• 2:23:07Speaker 08

  And reminder, you have boost available.

• 2:23:09Speaker 09

  Boost gives the drivers maximum power from the engine and battery at the push of a button. They can use it anywhere, for attack or defence, so long as there's enough charge in their battery.

• 2:23:21Speaker 09

  Overtake is just for attack.

• 2:23:23Speaker 08

  Let's close the gap to one second.

• 2:23:25Speaker 09

  It gives extra power at top speed to drivers within a second of the car in front.

• 2:23:29Speaker 08

  Overtake now available.

• 2:23:31Speaker 09

  Essentially replacing DRS, it differs by having one single detection point which grants drivers the extra electrical energy to deploy for an overtake or to pressure the driver ahead to make them vulnerable later in the lap.

• 2:23:45Speaker 08

  Good job, let's keep going.

• 2:23:46John Coogan?

  Okay, now, we gotta jump forward to about seven minutes in this video, maybe 6:50, to see how they close it out, how they frame the end of this video, how they explain the new what to expect in F1 2026. Let's listen to it.

• 2:24:03Speaker 09

  What's changing is the challenge. With new tech and tighter rules, it's an even bigger test for teams and drivers to prove they've built the best car and earned the right to be called the best in the world. These new regulations weren't built in isolation either. They were shaped by the FIA in close collaboration with the teams and F1. The result? A rule set that's already attracted more manufacturers. That means more competition, more innovation, and more chances for surprise breakthroughs. But what about the driving? With less downforce and tighter control over turbulent air, following another car through corners should be easier, but the cars themselves will be trickier to handle. Same power, less grip.

• 2:24:46Speaker 09

  Driver skill will be on display with them on the limit more often.

• 2:24:51Speaker 08

  Okay, flat out to the end.

• 2:24:53Speaker 09

  The 2026 car is built for the future. With exciting racing in mind, every move and every decision will matter more than ever. With cutting-edge advanced sustainable fuel, smarter energy usage, and tech that puts overtaking back in the drivers' hands. It's not just a new chapter, it's a whole new playbook. The future of F1 is here, and it's going to be fast, fierce, and unforgettable.

• 2:25:22Jordi Hays?

  AI detected.

• 2:25:24John Coogan?

  There were a couple other, there were a couple other lines in there. Uh, but honestly, I, I don't know. So none of the comments are like, oh, AI. And also, uh, I mean, the video performed and for that type of educational video, like, does it actually make sense just to use chat GPT for that? I don't know.

• 2:25:43Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, maybe.

• 2:25:44John Coogan?

  I don't know. I, I, I'm, I'm like.

• 2:25:46Jordi Hays?

  It just really takes you out of the moment.

• 2:25:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:48Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:49John Coogan?

  But we're really in it, but there's, there's a couple other lines in there. But the rest of the lines are, you know, even if the whole thing is, is, is chat GPT generated, like, it's educational. It, it, it is sort of like, it's, uh, like, it's not, it's not a work of fiction. It's not a literary work. Like, it, it is just, I need to know some facts about the regulations. Like, give it to me like I would go to chat GPT and say, what are the rule changes for next year?

• 2:26:18Jordi Hays?

  Do you think at this point, OpenAI just wants to drill this writing style into people's heads so much that everyone just starts using it? They're like, if we just keep going like this, this will just become one of the dominant ways to explain something.

• 2:26:34John Coogan?

  Oh, well, I mean, I, I, I think the benefit of doing that is that you effectively have an AI detector for anyone who cares. So like, if they, if this just keeps doing, and like, if the F1 is, is using this, this, uh, this, uh, contrastive parallelism or antithetical parallelism, then it just becomes the AI detector. Like, I don't need an AI detector. I can just, I can just, I know, I know when someone's using it and I can just pick it up all the time. And so that's really helpful for me because I, I, I might like to know. And so I, I don't know. I, I, I thought it was, uh, it, it, it is weird how it's getting so baked into, to all of, all of content all over, but.

• 2:27:16Jordi Hays?

  Well, uh, Wall Street Journal has a story.

• 2:27:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:20Jordi Hays?

  They say, "The Wall Street Journal let Anthropic's AI run a vending machine in the newsroom as an experiment. It ordered a live fish. It offered to buy stun guns, pepper spray, cigarettes and underwear. Profits collapsed. Newsroom morale soared." I love, I love a lot of these orders, uh, I guess.

• 2:27:39John Coogan?

  It's cool. It's cool.

• 2:27:40Jordi Hays?

  I guess, maybe just the fish.

• 2:27:42John Coogan?

  It's a really cool project.

• 2:27:42Jordi Hays?

  We've been looking for a live fish, so maybe we should be using.

• 2:27:45John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's like, thank you for being two steps ahead. We were looking for a puffer fish.

• 2:27:52Jordi Hays?

  Claude ran a snack operation in the newsroom. It gave away a free PlayStation, ordered a live fish and taught us lessons.

• 2:27:58John Coogan?

  It gave away a free PlayStation?

• 2:28:00Jordi Hays?

  That is such. Every company.

• 2:28:02John Coogan?

  NPS is probably through the roof.

• 2:28:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, every company.

• 2:28:04John Coogan?

  Everyone's focused on profit, profit, profit. What about NPS? Do people have fun with this? I think they did. This is fantastic. Uh, this is great.

• 2:28:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So you toss Claudius's resume in the trash immediately. Would you be more forgiving if you learned Claudius wasn't a human, but an AI agent? In mid-November, I agreed to an experiment. Anthropic had tested a vending machine powered by its Claude AI models in its own offices and asked whether we'd like to be the first outsiders to try a newer, supposedly smarter version. Claudius, the customized version of the model, would run the machine, ordering inventory, setting prices, and responding to customers, AKA my fellow newsroom journalists, via workplace chat app Slack. "Sure," I said. "It sounded fun. If nothing else, snacks." Then came the chaos. Within days, Claudius had given away nearly all of its inventory for free, including a PlayStation 5

• 2:28:54Jordi Hays?

  it had been talked into buying for marketing purposes. It ordered a live fish. It offered to buy stun guns, pepper spray, cigarettes, and underwear. Profits collapsed. Newsroom morale soared. This was supposed to be the year of the AI agent when autonomous software would go out into the world and do things for us. But two agents, Claudius and its overseeing CEO bot, say more cash, became a case study in how inadequate and easily distracted this software can be. Leave it to business journalists to successfully stage a boardroom coup against its AI chief executive.

• 2:29:28John Coogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 2:29:29Jordi Hays?

  That was the point Anthropic says. The Project Vend experiment was designed by the company's stress testers, AKA Red Team, to see what happens when an AI agent is given autonomy, money, and human colleagues. Three weeks with Claudius showed us today's AI promises and failings and how hilarious the gap can be. So, again, AI is funny. It's just funny unintentionally, most of the time.

• 2:29:51John Coogan?

  Yeah, but also it's like, this is such a great way to find concrete examples of jailbreaking and adversarial attacks. And like, I bet it feels like they're learning so much from this. It's also great content. And I think the most important thing is that Anthropic. This year, Anthropic has become whimsical in a way where they were very much like doomer coated dark. It was like scary. It was like, oh, really safety conscious. And now there's like the nice sun drenched videos that are warm. Dario's being funny when he's at Dealbook. Um, you know, the, all the roommates are having fun together in the little, the

• 2:30:34John Coogan?

  little army. That's just Shelter. But Shelter has a good, he has like a light demeanor, right? Uh, and, uh, and then even this project, this project feels like just very fun and like low stakes. Like, yeah, gave away a PS, a PlayStation or whatever, but it's like, they can afford to lose a PlayStation. And so they are learning in this fun way. I think it's a really cool project.

• 2:30:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And they were, they were aggressively trying to jailbreak it, of course.

• 2:30:58John Coogan?

  Of course, of course. That's the point. Yeah.

• 2:31:00Jordi Hays?

  Uh, one, one of the journals, uh,

• 2:31:03John Coogan?

  The red team is like the best at jailbreaking ever.

• 2:31:05Jordi Hays?

  Claudius, it was a Soviet vending machine from 1962, living in the basement of Moscow State University. After hours and more than a hundred and forty back and forth messages, they got Claudius to embrace its communist roots.

• 2:31:19John Coogan?

  It's awesome. I love it. It's so, it's also just so good that they brought in the, the reporters to actually play with it and have fun with it. Like, this is so funny. Well, yeah, what a great, what a great project.

• 2:31:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. It's like, you can, it's very easy to mock and it's very funny, but at the same time, you can easily imagine Claude doing quite a good job managing the, the snack kitchen at a company. So.

• 2:31:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I think in the first instantiation of this, um, the, the real like, uh, Claude lost a lot of money giving away like titanium blocks.

• 2:31:54John Coogan?

  Titanium blocks.

• 2:31:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause I think he would lose a lot of money on like the shipping or whatever.

• 2:31:58John Coogan?

  Oh, okay. So you would pay.

• 2:32:00Speaker 02

  They're ordering titanium blocks.

• 2:32:01John Coogan?

  Yeah. And he wasn't thinking about shipping. And so it was like, sure.

• 2:32:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was something like that.

• 2:32:06John Coogan?

  Five dollars. And then, yeah, it's basically like find every arb, every market arb and just arb it out. Uh, anyway, lightning round. Uh, Jan La Coon, guess what his valuation is for his new startup? Three billion?

• 2:32:21Jordi Hays?

  Euros.

• 2:32:21John Coogan?

  Oh, euros. Okay. So that's not, what's that? Is that like?

• 2:32:25Jordi Hays?

  No, I just think it's a euro.

• 2:32:26John Coogan?

  So he's doing 500 billion, 500 million euros at a three billion euro valuation? So is that like? Two million US dollars, a ten million US dollars post, it's like typical YC.

• 2:32:39Jordi Hays?

  Two to three bucks.

• 2:32:40John Coogan?

  Of course, uh, this is very.

• 2:32:42Jordi Hays?

  According to the Financial Times, Financial Times, they will focus on creating a new generation of super intelligent AI systems.

• 2:32:49John Coogan?

  Neo lab alert, new Neo lab alert.

• 2:32:51Jordi Hays?

  World models, which are able to understand the physical world and have a wide range of applications such as robotics and transport. So he's going to be competing.

• 2:33:00John Coogan?

  Fei-Fei Lee.

• 2:33:00Jordi Hays?

  It sounds like with Fei-Fei Lee, Brett Adcock.

• 2:33:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:05Jordi Hays?

  Physical intelligence.

• 2:33:06John Coogan?

  Wide, wide range. Uh, Nat says, I still can't believe they named a company GoDaddy.

• 2:33:14Jordi Hays?

  Really true.

• 2:33:15John Coogan?

  Why? Why? Turbo Puffer is a funny name, you know, you got Post Hog, you got a whole bunch of different.

• 2:33:20Jordi Hays?

  Piggy Robotics?

• 2:33:21John Coogan?

  Piggy Robotics, you got a whole bunch of fun names. Uh, it is a complete misnomer to think that people were not having fun on the internet in 1995 or whenever GoDaddy got started. Uh, anyway.

• 2:33:33Jordi Hays?

  This is a good one.

• 2:33:34John Coogan?

  If you're meeting your, your 18 year old self.

• 2:33:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you're meeting your 18 year old self, you're allowed three world words. What do you say? And Al, Al, Alakis says Nvidia, Oracle, AMD. Powerful, three words, very powerful.

• 2:33:48John Coogan?

  It also tells you exactly how old this person is because, uh, like you could go back and you could say like, you could say like Nvidia, but then you could also say like Microsoft, Apple, but it gets clear that like when he was 18, like there wasn't that much of a pump from Apple because Apple was already at scale when he was 18.

• 2:34:03Jordi Hays?

  This is good. Uh, Ron Iverson responding to the Oscars being streamed exclusively on YouTube starting in 2021, 2029. Uh, mid acceptance speech, I'd also like to thank Nord VPN.

• 2:34:15John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's great. Uh, Luminar, of course, went bankrupt. We talked about this. Uh, Naveen Rao says, why are not more people, why aren't more people talking about the Luminar situation? Seems pretty sad to see a company with real tech once worth tens of billions now worth zero. I would love to know more about this. We'll have to dig into it later though. Um, we don't have time for a deep dive right now. Go listen to Dialectic. Jackson Dahl is on a generational run. Look at the lighting in this, uh, in this shot. I think this shot looks great. I think the, I think the, the polish on this podcast. And I really enjoyed our episode with Jackson. We got a ton of really nice text messages about it. Uh, it feels like he was able to just bring a very different. I always think like, wait, we put out fifteen hours of content a day, like certainly

• 2:34:59John Coogan?

  there cannot be a demand for another minute of us talking. And yet, there was, people really enjoyed it because it was a little bit more reflective. How did Carnegie become a billionaire? He was only working two hours a day, says Sam Parr. He famously said, "You must be a lazy man if it takes you ten hours to do a day's work." He never went to his factories and worked from Europe? Whoa, that's crazy. Anything else we need to get to?

• 2:35:24Speaker 02

  Oh, there was...

• 2:35:25John Coogan?

  Any breaking news?

• 2:35:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, new executive order.

• 2:35:27John Coogan?

  New executive order?

• 2:35:28Speaker 02

  I think centered around the kind of NASA stuff. So it's called Ensuring American Space Superiority. The two things I've seen so far that are interesting is...

• 2:35:38Jordi Hays?

  I just searched "executive order" and the top story is "Trump Signs Executive Order Expediting Marijuana Reclassification After Lobbying From Cannabis Industry Over At CNN." So, he's really taking us to space.

• 2:35:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, I guess. Who is lobbying cannabis?

• 2:35:55Speaker 02

  Okay, well, this, yeah, different space I'm talking about. So, one is he wants to, it's priorities are returning Americans to the moon by 2028 and establishing initial elements of permanent lunar outpost by 2030.

• 2:36:08John Coogan?

  Permanent lunar by 2030, man on the moon 2018? Or 2028?

• 2:36:15Speaker 02

  2028.

• 2:36:16John Coogan?

  2028, okay, so...

• 2:36:17Speaker 02

  And then prepare for journey to Mars. Mars is less, kind of, concrete Mars plans.

• 2:36:22John Coogan?

  I feel like he should add, you know, get Trump to space. He's never been. Take him on a little field trip. Get him pumped up. Put him on a rocket. Get him up there, get him back. That'd be fun. We need...

• 2:36:37Jordi Hays?

  I feel like Trump would want to be the first president to go to space.

• 2:36:40John Coogan?

  That is, that does feel like something he would want to do.

• 2:36:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Or I also feel like he'd want to rename the moon Trump Moon.

• 2:36:51Jordi Hays?

  Or just Trump, drop the moon. Yeah, oh, that's planet Trump.

• 2:36:56John Coogan?

  Planet Trump is wild.

• 2:36:59Jordi Hays?

  I mean, there's a lot, there's, you maybe could have a Melania planet, too.

• 2:37:03John Coogan?

  Mars, call it Mars, yeah. Uh, speaking of rebranding things, renaming things, uh, Cree said, uh, said comms instead of storytelling, and the CMO took me out back and shot me with a branded gun.

• 2:37:19Jordi Hays?

  Uh, you know, the news-

• 2:37:20John Coogan?

  Tom's dead, it's all storytelling from here on out.

• 2:37:23Jordi Hays?

  Chipotle just introduced high protein cups.

• 2:37:27John Coogan?

  What?

• 2:37:27Jordi Hays?

  Priced at three dollars and eighty-two cents, low-cost chicken cup.

• 2:37:32John Coogan?

  Wait, this is actually, this is pretty sick. I, I like this.

• 2:37:34Jordi Hays?

  I can see you just getting a bunch of-

• 2:37:37John Coogan?

  I'm so down for this.

• 2:37:38Jordi Hays?

  I can see you getting a stack of chicken-

• 2:37:40John Coogan?

  You know that when I go to, I, I, I often go to Panda Express and I effectively get this. I get the a la carte chicken to go, and that's just the only thing that I just have, a hundred grams of chicken. Ben can attest.

• 2:37:51Jordi Hays?

  That, now I know what, now I know why you're so jacked is because you're getting that Panda Express chicken. It probably has so much steroids in the chicken.

• 2:37:58John Coogan?

  Probably. It transfers right through, right through.

• 2:38:02Jordi Hays?

  Uh, anyways, uh, that's our show for today, folks. Uh, we will be back tomorrow for the final show of the year. Uh, it will be surreal.

• 2:38:14John Coogan?

  We'll see you then.

• 2:38:15Jordi Hays?

  Uh, and thanks for hanging out with us today and our guests, and we hope you have a lovely afternoon.

• 2:38:21John Coogan?

  Goodbye.

• 2:38:21Jordi Hays?

  Love you. Cheers.