How the CIA Failed its Officers in Cuba & the FBI Failed them at Home | EYES ON

Today we're joined by Jack Murphy & Sean Naylor the creators of The High Side. We talk about their recently released article about the first victims of Havana Syndrome and how the CIA didn't take them seriously and how the FBI failed to help as they were being harassed here at home. Find The High Side here:⬇️ https://thehighside.substack.com/ https://x.com/TheHighSideNews New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️ https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.com Support the show on Patreon:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Jack Murphy:⬇️ https://x.com/JackMurphyRGR?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor We Defyhttps://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N The High Side https://thehighside.substack.com/ Sean Naylor :⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001IO9NTQ https://www.linkedin.com/in/sean-naylor-825a439/ https://x.com/SeanDNaylor Find Andy Milburn here: ⬇️ https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8 https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023 https://amilburn.substack.com/ https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operations https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.social https://open.substack.com/pub/amilburn/p/journal-of-a-plague-year?utm_source=app-post-stats-page&r=emo6q&utm_medium=ios Find Mick Mulroy here: ⬇️ https://fogbow.com/ https://www.loboinstitute.org/ https://x.com/MickMulroy?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/ https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.social Find Jason Lyons here: ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.soci Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:27Speaker 01

  What we were told by multiple intelligence officers was state actor level. In other words, nation-state intelligence agency level phone hacking.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  They were, whoever was doing this to the Havana syndrome victims was able to remotely access their phones and task their phones to do things and in fact disable their phones so that they became, as one of the victims put it, a brick in his hand and then heat those phones up so they became too hot to handle. And, you know, the US government looked into that and found out that, you know, there was what in signals intelligence terms is called, you know, in phone hacking terms is called an exploit.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Eyes On. Very special. And today we have Jack Murphy and Sean Naylor, the creators and producers of the High Side Substack. The link is in the description. If you don't know what the High Side is, it is a pretty, pretty in-depth media outlet where these two guys go pretty, I'm gonna say it again, pretty in-depth in terms of stories they produce and write. The most recent one was about the original Havana syndrome victims that got hit in Havana and their story, which is wild. I mean, I was reading this yesterday and it was, it was kind of like shocking me a

• 2:14Speaker 02

  little bit, like how, like the level of harassment they've been getting. We'll go into it deep and uh and just like the ineptitude I think of like counterintelligence uh by the FBI.

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, guys, welcome. And again, the high side sub stack, the link is in the description. Go check it out. They do great stuff. They've done a great uh and they're continuing to do a great um. Profile on Willie Murkison, who was a legend. You'll uh deep dive on the Omega teams and I know there's something cooking. I'm not gonna take talk about it, but there's more stuff cooking and it's it's stuff you won't find anywhere else. You won't find it really on the New York Times. I mean. Or Washington Post or Wall Street Journal, like in their investigative stuff. Um. It's really in depth. Reporting. That you can't get anywhere else. So the link is in the description. Check that out. The high side. Hey, boys. Hey, great to be here. So where the hell do we even start? I mean.

• 3:15Jack Murphy?

  Well. I mean, I would I would start from the perspective of this story at least. Um. The the the story for the subject of it starts in 2016, really. Um. But for us. It starts just a couple of years ago, uh when Sean and I were put in touch with the person who's known as Patient Zero of Havana Syndrome. A guy that goes by the name Adam. Uh. The CIA won't let him release his actual real name um. For Byzantine reasons that are beyond our understanding. Uh. They they won't let him say his actual name, but. I drove out into the middle of nowhere to see this guy. Uh. An undisclosed location uh because of their their.

• 3:57Jack Murphy?

  Because of what we'll talk about in this interview, I think it'll become clear why he is protective about his security. Um. So I drove out there and spent like a day, a day and a half with him um to try to see and remember this was like. Two years ago, so a lot had been written about Havana Syndrome. And I was really trying to gauge like, is there more here? Like, is there still, you know, it's still so many mysteries around it. But is there another story that I can latch on to and write? And my conversation with Adam. Definitely led me to believe that there was. Um. And then from there, it just sort of became a question of. How? Like, how do you go about writing it? Um. Because this could be like a three volume book series easily.

• 4:42Jack Murphy?

  So it's like, how do you? How do you like parse it? It down. And so my, my tool, I guess, to try to do that was to just focus on the initial cohort of people that were struck in Havana, Cuba, 2016, 2017. And, you know, somewhere way down the line, if we, if I were to do a sequel to this story or sequels, I would do one about the people in China. I do one about the people in Austria. But for this article, which is substantially long, it's like 16,000 words. It really just homes in on the original Havana victims.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I mean, and um, their story is kind of incredible, what they've kind of gone through. Roadblocks, both on the, our own side, like CIA, kind of like blocking them from getting medical treatment and trying to steer them into a different, uh, you know, different diagnosis. There's a point where like they try and diagnose them with a concussion rather than TBI, because concussion is a lot more, uh, you could just explain it away a little bit more.

• 5:49Jack Murphy?

  There, there are also some legalities involved there, as it turns out, that when you have injured federal employees, the government is not supposed to be directing their care. In other words, they can't tell them, you have to go see this doctor. You can go and see your own doctor.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 6:04Jack Murphy?

  They were playing that game, like, oh, this classified information, you can't just go and tell any neurologist about this. And as I understand it, I've been told that, like, that's illegal under federal labor laws.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, I think, do you, you sort of mentioned in the intro that, that what we have on the high side generally, um, and this is sort of almost like a requirement for our stories, is it has to be something that you cannot read anywhere else, because we're asking people to pay for subscriptions. Um, and so I, I, and Jack and I want, want to deliver to them in every story, material that, that they will not find elsewhere. Um, and in this story, uh, that sort of falls

• 6:57Speaker 01

  into two overarching categories. One is, as sort of Jack has implied, it's the most detailed look at what actually happened in Havana.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  And and and and the sort of what happened to that cohort of patients when they came back to the States. But the the second sort of new in the block of new information, if you like, is this extraordinary campaign of harassment and intimidation to which those individuals were subjected in the United States by persons unknown, certainly to to them and and to us, although there are a a few clues littered littered about.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  And this, I mean, when when when we heard this, I was just astounded because there's been an awful lot written about Havana syndrome over over the years. And I I certainly can't claim to have read every every last word of it. And, you know, there've been multiple sort of multi-episode podcasts about it and so forth. And I had never heard of this before. I mean, essentially, someone or someones targeted the members of the cohort of that

• 8:33Speaker 01

  of that Havana cohort who came back to the United States and were, for the most part, all receiving treatment at different locations with the sort of spy versus spy tactics that you would expect to see that US intelligence officers expect to be on the receiving end of in hard-target locations like like Russia, like China, like Havana, like like Cuba, and and oddly enough, like like Israel as well. But but it is unprecedented for US intelligence officers to be targeted with those tactics.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  In the United States, in their own homes. Um, and, you know, we're talking about folks who had their homes broken into repeatedly, burglarized and all, well, not all the time, but almost all the time with subtle messages being left for them. For instance, um, you know, in an, an interview that, uh, uh, that, that Jack did with a, a, uh, one of the victims who, who we call Frank, uh, uh, he had, um, his, his home in Northern

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Virginia, uh, broken into and he had, uh, a collection basically of, of firearms that included three long guns, two AR-15s and an AK-47 and five handguns, all in Pelican cases and all hidden upstairs in his attic. Whoever broke into his home somehow knew where those guns were going to be, got them, brought them downstairs, laid them out on the beds in, in his master bedroom and his spare bedroom, didn't steal them, but stole the Pelican cases, uh, which are pretty pricey in and of themselves.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  I mean, people who know more about these things than I do tell me that they're, they're worth, you know, for a long gun, a Pelican case is, is easily worth more than a thousand dollars. Um, and, uh.

• 10:55Jack Murphy?

  And don't, don't forget that they also helped themselves to the Cuban rum and cigars that he brought back with him.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Yes, and I think that's the, uh, that, you know, that's, that's a telling detail right, right there. Um, I mean, this particular individual, uh, and you know, another sort of fairly creepy, uh, thing that happened to, to him was when he was in Philadelphia, uh, receiving treatment as, as many of the, the subjects of our article, uh, were, uh, at the University of Pennsylvania for, for, for their Havana syndrome.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Somebody broke into his apartment there and stole two cases of Pete's Coffee K-cups, which apparently he was very Fond of. Very fond of. Yeah, yeah, I remember that part. And then two years later, in one of the multiple break-ins to his home in Northern Virginia, those two cases were left behind. You know, as, as just a signal to him, hey, we're still watching you, you know, we're still on your case. Um, you know, another time they broke into his home and, uh,

• 12:15Speaker 01

  they found some of his medical records related to Havana syndrome and they copied them on his copy machine and, and left with the copies and they, he and his, uh, uh, he and his partner only discovered that when they, you know, there was some button on their copy machine that told them all the documents that had been copied over the last so many days or weeks and, uh, and they realized that, that the burglars had actually copied those documents as he, as he put it to us, it was almost like they were trying to check the damage that they'd done to him, you know, by checking his medical records. So, just, just, I mean, there are stories and stories

• 13:00Speaker 01

  and stories like that in our article, um, about just incredibly, incredibly crazy stuff that, that happened to these folks. Dead deers being left on, uh, on their porch. Uh, in, in one case that was not, uh, that was a Havana syndrome victim, but not one of the victims from, uh, uh, who was struck in Havana themselves.

• 13:24Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show. If you've been watching it, enjoying it, um, but you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help us continue to do this. You can check out our Patreon. It is patreon.com/the team house. And for $5 a month, you can get access to all of these episodes of The Team House ad-free. Uh, the same goes with our affiliated podcast Eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons, McMulroy. Uh, that one, you will also get all of those episodes ad-free. And you support the channel and the show and we really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has helped this company, this small business survive, especially during our early years.

• 14:09Jack Murphy?

  And you are what continues to help this thing going even as we navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising. So we really appreciate all of you guys. There's going to be a link down in the description to that Patreon page. And there is also going to be a link to our new merch shop. So if you guys want to go and get some Team House merchandise, we got stickers and we also have patches. And I should mention, if you sign up for Patreon at $10 a month, we will mail you this patch as well. So we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale on the merch shop. And additionally, they got T-shirts up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all that good stuff.

• 14:54Jack Murphy?

  So please go and check them out and support the show. We really appreciate it, guys. Thank you.

• 14:59Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 15:14Speaker 05

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 15:25Speaker 04

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• 15:30Speaker 06

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• 15:36Speaker 04

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• 15:56Speaker 07

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• 16:26Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, the one, I think the one where they stole the Pelican cases for the rifles and stuff like that. They also left a nice little present for them in their bathroom too, right?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  And, uh, he hit the-

• 16:36Speaker 01

  That's a typical thing that the, that the Cubans would do in Havana. That's, that's a sort of like a little calling card. So it's interesting that, that the same things that happened to US intelligence officers in Havana were happening to them in the United States.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think it's, it's important to let people know, like, when they're in a hard, you know, places and serving in like Russia, China, Havana and anywhere else where it's a more of a hardship tour. This is to be expected, right? Like they train for this. They understand this is gonna happen when you're abroad. But yeah, you're going back to your, your apartment in Virginia or Philadelphia and you're finding the same tactics going on in the United States where you're supposed to kind of, it was relatively off, you're relatively off limits. And then you hit up the FBI like what you're supposed to do. And FBI is supposed to be the premier counterintelligence agency that we have, right? They're supposed to go out to, go after the spies that are in America.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  And it seems like the FBI was just like kind of out to lunch with this, um.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:47Jack Murphy?

  So, so was CIA.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Well, CIA, I feel like CIA just didn't want to deal with the, well, you would think that too. CIA, the alarm bells are ringing too, but I can understand the CIA's point because they're trying to like muzzle these guys. It seems like, right? It seems like that's what they've been trying to do for the last 10 year, almost 10 years, eight, nine years, so.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  It's just, yeah, go ahead.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  I mean, I think, I think, um,

• 18:14Speaker 01

  it's hard to know. I mean, we, we, we quote, um, another Havana syndrome victim, uh, someone who was, who was struck in, in Moscow, Mark Polymeropoulos, um, you know, a, a, a sort of friend of the team house, uh, if you like, saying that, why the FBI?

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Behaved as it did in this context is one of the big unanswered questions of of the whole Havana syndrome story. And, you know, you you can look at it from several angles. There are several possible explanations. One is sheer incompetence. You know, a lot of these incidents happened in Philadelphia. The CIA officers with whom we we spoke were particularly cutting in their remarks

• 19:15Speaker 01

  about the abilities of the counterintelligence team, the very small counterintelligence team in the bureau's Philadelphia office. So it could be that they just weren't very good then. But I mean, enough of this stuff happened elsewhere that you would think that other folks would get involved, who were probably better. But there seemed to be a marked disinterest in really finding out who was behind this. And to me, that's that's not 100 miles away from other similar disinterests we've seen

• 19:57Speaker 01

  in the last 10 years over incidents that have occurred in the United States that common sense might lead you to suspect the Russians might have been responsible for. I mean, there have been various associates of Vladimir Putin and so forth, died in very unusual circumstances. I mean, one, you know, in a hotel beside Dupont Circle in Washington DC, that there's been a strange eagerness to sort of adopt a nothing to see here attitude from on the part of the of the US government.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter which administration is is in is in power.

• 20:43Jack Murphy?

  Those counterintelligence investigations are very odd to the way they get. They're so close-hold and they go on for decades oftentimes. So it's not totally uncommon for like.

• 20:58Jack Murphy?

  Docked up into a CI investigation and just disappear, but I felt the same thing. I mean, that there's a, you can't help but feel that there's a political component of it, meaning that, um, but like for years and years, the federal government didn't go after Chinese espionage because they were seen as our favorite trading partner. And any sort of CI investigation involving the Chinese was just sort of seen as like an annoyance, like, oh, why, why do we have to do this? Um, and I mean, I, this is purely speculative on my part, but I couldn't help but think that when it comes to this case with the Havana syndrome victims, um, that the reason why they don't want to look too hard is because the answers just bring more questions.

• 21:43Jack Murphy?

  The biggest one being, how does the opposition even know how to target covered CIA personnel within the United States? How do they have their personnel information? How do they know where they live? How do they know their real names? Those are all very, very concerning questions that I haven't heard anyone ask at all.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep. I mean, I think that's, I mean, Jack's hit the nail on the head there. There's, uh, you know, it, it not only raises a lot of awkward questions for the US government, but it also forces tough decisions on them. If you find out that a nation state is targeting your intelligence officers inside the United States, what are you going to do about that? You know, are you going to target their officers in their home countries? Do you even have the ability to do that? Are you going to shut down their embassy? Are you going to, you know, bring more sanctions on them?

• 22:48Speaker 01

  I mean, one of the sort of. One of the many sort of interesting facets that we uncovered in our investigation, we spoke with a lawyer called Mark Zaid, a Washington lawyer who's been in the news recently because he's fallen afoul of Donald Trump by, you know, representing the wrong Americans and therefore being stripped of his security clearance by Trump. But he represents a couple of dozen Havana syndrome victims.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  And he told us that some of these victims who were not the ones who were struck in Cuba, but were struck elsewhere, whether that's Russia or other parts of the world or even in the United States, some of them were Russian experts. And they have been on the receiving end of similarly sort of creepy episodes, beg your pardon, with people tailing them, photographing them and so forth, just as we describe has happened to the, some members of the Havana cohort.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  But on those cases, when they were able to trace back who was doing this to them, it turned out to be Russian speakers. Whereas a lot of the hints about and clues about who was targeting the actual Havana cohort members in the United States pointed not conclusively, but, you know, indirectly to links to Havana. So, you know, it's quite possible that...

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Cuba and Russia were coordinating on on this. Um, we have, you know, we're a long way from being able to say we have conclusive proof, but those are the two obvious, uh, obvious suspects.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  There was an incredible, uh, part in the story where, uh, Adam and Mike are sitting, having, uh, breakfast. Um, I guess just before they're going to get treatment at the University of Pennsylvania and, uh, they catch a guy just straight up taking pictures of him. Um, and they reported to the FBI. I guess the FBI went over the security tapes, followed it, tracked them where he was going that day. And like, he literally like jumped on a plane and left and they figured he was a foreign national. Like, and it wasn't even, it wasn't even, um, covert. It was obviously overt.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:37Speaker 02

  So like you need to see, we're in, well, I'm in the window of the restaurant.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Snapping pictures at you guys. You're the only people in there.

• 25:44Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, that's called harassing surveillance.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:47Jack Murphy?

  Intended to be seen.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, um, I, I'm assume, I'm, I'm assuming that there's still a counterintelligence, um, investigation going on and stuff like that. And Jack, just to go back to what you mentioned where like there, you know, the more you dig in, the more questions you have, and there's questions that like no one really wants to ask or answer. Like, this is me speculating, but could there be a penetration at CIA or anywhere else?

• 26:16Jack Murphy?

  How, how, how else would they have that targeting data? It, it could only come from inside the building.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  That's the scary part, you know?

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Either that or, um, I mean, there's, there's a few. I mean, I'm thinking, I'm sort of speaking off the top of my head here. I mean, but, uh, clearly they knew who the Havana, the, the DI, the Cuban, uh, intelligence service in, in, in Cuba knew who they were targeting in Havana. So.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Tracking those guys in the United States, if you already know their identities, that is probably you've gotten past one of the hurdles there.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  But you, it's still challenging to track them all the way up to Philadelphia and what apartments are they staying in and so forth. I mean, that's, that's in, you know, very, that has to be very troubling from a counterintelligence point of view. In addition, something we haven't talked about yet is the, what we were told by, by, by multiple intelligence officers was state actor level. In other words, nation state intelligence agency level phone hacking. Oh, yes, sir. They were, whoever was doing this to the, to the Havana syndrome victims was able

• 27:47Speaker 01

  to remotely access their phones and task their phones to do things and in fact disable their phones so that they became as, as one, one of the victims put it, a brick in his hand and then heat those phones up. So they became too hot to handle.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  And, you know, the US government looked into that and found out that, you know, there was an, what, what in, in signals intelligence terms is called a, you know, and phone hacking terms is called an exploit. And I'm, I'm at about the edge of my knowledge of, of, of that sort of technology here. But, but they were able to shut that down. But they, they also discovered that there was a, a network of burner phones that were sort of involved in, in this operation that as the authorities closed in, in Philadelphia, that, that network of burner phones just went silent and, and they, they, they couldn't grab them.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  I just wanted to make them in case, mention in case, you know, we have viewers or listeners who, you know, haven't yet read the story that the, the case of the photographer in, in the window in Philadelphia, which we lead the story with, because it was such a, an extraordinary event, and we had photographs that the two CIA officers who were having breakfast in, in the window of this cafe, when the guy shows up on the sidewalk outside the window and starts pointing his camera at them and taking, taking photographs. And we're talking about a real camera here. We're not talking about a cellphone camera. We're

• 29:35Speaker 01

  talking about a professional level camera with a long lens. Um, that, that we have those photographs and we reproduce some of those photographs, uh, in the article that, that the intelligence officers took of whoever this was on the sidewalk. It's also important to, to mention that unlike breaking into somebody's home and stealing something from their home, I don't think it's illegal to take photographs of people on, you know, on a public sidewalk. I'm, I'm not a lawyer, and so I'm, you know, I'm, I'm welcomed, uh, I'd welcome being corrected on that. Um, so it's not as if that individual was doing

• 30:19Speaker 01

  anything illegal and we certainly don't say in the article that that person was a Cuban spy, or a Russian spy, or agent, or, you know, witting or unwitting. We don't know who he was.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  Just that he's a foreign national, according to the FBI.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  That's what they were told. We quote, we quote us, one of our sources saying, saying that. Um, uh, you know, but it was very curious and suspicious behavior.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  A little bit back on like the CIA basically running a defense on their own officers that got injured. It was wild what was going on, like when they wanted to go see the doctor in Miami, who's a, you know, highly regarded doctor, neurologist or whatever, and they ended up starting to like, no, we're not going to actually pay for your flights to Miami to go get treatment and stuff like that. It's just, I don't, I mean, the way they handled this was pretty unbelievable, where it's now blown up and it's is a big news story and it has been for years. It's like the opposite of what you should do, like take care of your guys and figure

• 31:32Speaker 02

  out what the fuck's going on and maybe hit back.

• 31:36Jack Murphy?

  It's probably the biggest scandal the CIA has had since WMDs in Iraq. I mean, it's, it's sizable. And I mean, what we uncover is that a lot of it, especially initially, first, there's some disbelief that this was actually happening, but also there were people who remember the whole Moscow microwaves thing in the 1970s and 80s. And that it was just sort of a morass, right? You're like, you'd never really know, like, yeah, the embassy was being bombarded with microwaves. What affected that have on people? What did it not have? Or, you know, what were the, what were the microwaves intended to do? What weren't they intended to?

• 32:19Jack Murphy?

  It turned into this like morass and there still are unanswered questions about that to this day. And I think they just did not want to go down that rabbit hole and start it over again.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think that's right.

• 32:35Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 32:50Speaker 05

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 33:01Speaker 04

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 33:06Speaker 06

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 33:12Speaker 04

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 33:32Speaker 08

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• 34:02Speaker 01

  And, you know, but it goes back to what we were saying earlier. It also, they didn't really want to lift up that rock and look under it. And I suspect without, without any proof that that reluctance went higher than just the seventh floor of the, you know, old, the original headquarters building at CIA headquarters in Langley. I suspect that that reluctance went, you know, probably went higher than that because what administration wants to face into all of those tough questions and all of those tough decisions that, that

• 34:47Speaker 01

  actual proof of A, your intelligence officers being targeted and zapped with some, you know, weapon abroad forces you into. And, and, and as we discussed earlier, you know, then those, those self same intelligence officers being targeted in Northern Virginia or downtown Philadelphia as if they were in Moscow or, you know, Beijing or, you know, or Havana. And, you know, and, and there's, you know, there's.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  There's a real, you know, I think, you know, reluctance to face into some of that. And there's another potential, you know, reason which we'll probably get to, well, we'll definitely get to in part two of the series, so we don't want to talk too much about it. But, you know, there may be, there may be self-serving reasons why the United States government doesn't want to delve too deeply or speak too publicly about what sort of devices are being used to target its intelligence officers.

• 36:10Jack Murphy?

  We also, it's important to understand and remember that the Obama administration was trying to normalize relations with Cuba during this time. And there's, I think that like one of the most interesting things that, you know, some historian 75 years from now will have to piece together is like the whole tit-for-tat and geopolitical chess match that got played between CIA and Cuban and Russian intelligence services. You know, because we were normalizing relations and there was this opening, the CIA people who are going down there were told that we're taking more of a gloves-off approach, just meaning that they're going to be more aggressive about recruitments, trying to recruit Cuban citizens on the island.

• 36:53Jack Murphy?

  Did that lead to some sort of retaliation or greater retaliation? And then, of course, the normalization itself between the United States and Cuba is something that would be a bad thing for who? For what country? Russia. And you saw after everything got rolled back, Russia has one of their submarines parked in Cuba and all kinds of other stuff going on.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  And as you pull the camera back from just Cuba, and, you know, and this isn't, you know, really the focus of our article, but... You look at the other locations where folks have come down with Havana Syndrome. A lot of them are in these countries where there's a renewed contest between Russia and the United States for influence. Austria being one, Vietnam being another. India.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Huber, obviously, being one, the Central Asian countries. And, you know, so it's, you know, there's no way for us to prove it right now, but, you know, that's a, that's a factor that might be playing into this as well.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was another interesting part during the article. You guys actually have a recording that Adam, I believe, took of the sound that he, he heard and, and what made him, you know, get vertigo, puke, and essentially the onset of all his symptoms. And there was a part in the article, and clarify for me, where the CIA has their analysts look at it, and they're like, oh, no, it's crickets.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Was that the CIA? Was that somebody else?

• 38:49Speaker 01

  I think you've got that.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Jason Group. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  And it was the CIA who, when they first analyzed it, the Department of Science and Technology, DS and T, as it's, as it's known at the agency, they analyzed that very quickly when Adam sent it up to them shortly after he, after he was struck. And they came to a very sort of chilling conclusion. They ran it through all their sort of machines, and they sent a message back down, you know, within hours, saying, "You were exposed to something man-made that can cause serious

• 39:38Speaker 01

  injury and/or death."

• 39:41Speaker 01

  So, you know, that was their first take. It's interesting that despite that being the

• 39:49Speaker 01

  having that immediate knowledge at CIA headquarters, how much shade they threw at the Havana victims, Havana syndrome victims, you know, over the next months and years. So when it came to the crickets that

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and explaining what the Johnson Group is and stuff like that, just for Jason Group, sorry.

• 40:14Jack Murphy?

  Jack, you want to take that? I mean, as I understand it, it's just a group of scientists that consult with the United States government. I had my, I asked one of my professors, actually, he was a nuclear seismologist about Jason. And he said, yeah, it's interesting that they, they're kind of like groomed, I guess, very early on in their careers for those positions, which I imagine there's not very many of them. But yeah, they, they produced this report early on.

• 40:42Jack Murphy?

  With, as far as I know, they didn't look at any actual evidence. They didn't look at any of the evidence even we have to come to this conclusion while they were probably just hearing crickets. And well, when these guys start going to see the doctor, when they go start to see Dr. Hoffer in Miami, I mean, he points out the symptoms and the, the physical effects, physical injuries that these guys have in their inner ear and the brain, they cannot be imagined or faked. It cannot be psychosomatic. It cannot be mass hysteria. Like, it's impossible to fake those injuries.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's, and you, you have to apply some common sense to, to this, okay? If crickets or cicadas or any insects in Cuba.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Could damage the brains of dozens of US Embassy staffers. And remember that the embassy was owned, was captured, like, I think fifty-five staff. So although there were people coming down on temporary duty to replace the folks who'd already been hurt and gone back to the United States. You're talking about a very high percentage of staff at the United States Embassy. Well, if the crickets were able to inflict that level of damage on the staff of one embassy, Cuba would be uninhabitable for human beings, right? I mean, it just would.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  And so, you know, like I said, that, and then look at, look at the stuff that we report on this, you know, in this article on the high side about the, the sort of all of the aggressive harassment and intimidation of the victims in the United States. If the crickets had done that, or if the, if this was a sort of psychosomatic, you know, it's all in their head, sort of, sort of phenomenon, who would care enough to go after these guys and gals in the, in the United States? I mean, that, that just doesn't make any sense.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Going back to like when the Obama administration was normalizing relations with Cuba and we restaffed the embassy down there and stuff like that, wouldn't it behoove Cuba if they're trying to like make nice with the US to not, you do the harassment stuff, take a shit in the toilet and stuff like that, fuck around, but like to actually injure these people, I feel like is a step above normal, like, um, spy craft, right? And normal.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  So my question, I guess, and where I'm leaning to is like.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Do you think that like Russia probably, I mean Russia's running around Cuba, right? They have to have GRU and SVR guys running around there. Could Russian guys have done this to the US?

• 43:43Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Personnel.

• 43:44Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, it's it's certainly possible, but they, it would be highly unlikely that the Cubans would not be read into it on some level, that that DGI would not know about it. Now, there's an interesting moment where the ambassador to Cuba, Ambassador de Laurentis, meets with Raul Castro in his office over this very issue. And Raul Castro looks him right in the eye and says, we are not behind this. We did not do this. I would, I run this island. I would never authorize that. And, you know, I mean, I think that it's possible they were working together, but it's

• 44:26Jack Murphy?

  also possible that the Cubans, maybe they knew something, maybe they knew the Russians were there setting up quote unquote surveillance gear and did not know the full extent of what was being established on the island. But again, there are still some unanswered questions there.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, there are many unanswered questions. Although we, you know, as I was mentioning earlier, in terms of the campaign against against the US intelligence officers in the United States, you know, the ones that were linked to Cuba, the clues led back to Cuba for who was, who was targeting them. And the ones that were linked to Russia, the clues, you know, seemed to point towards Russia. But we asked one of, one of the Cuba cohort CIA officers.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  You know, do you think those two nations or in their their spy services are working together? And he sort of chuckled and said, yeah, only on days that end in Y.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:36Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, um, and I think also you need to point out that the rules of espionage have been changing for a while. Um, you had the Russian security services poisoning dissidents in the United Kingdom with radioactive material. I mean, that's done to send a message like they want you to know that we can reach you, we can touch you anywhere. Um, so, you know, in the past, they'd say that, you know, this was sort of a gentleman's game that operated on Moscow rules. That's kind of out the window now. Um, everything that's happened in 2016 and then Ukraine, I mean, tho- those rules and the conversations we have about like rules based international order and everything like that's that's the past, that's over now.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, um.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's it's kind of gnarly because it's like what you would do probably if you're just trying to intimidate like you. It's kind of like what like a like a kingpin or drug lord would do, you know what I mean?

• 46:35Jack Murphy?

  This is what you would do if the two countries were at war with each other.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:40Jack Murphy?

  Right?

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you do see the up the, you know, the uptick in Russian sabotage across Europe and stuff like that. I mean,

• 46:49Speaker 02

  the gloves do kind of seem to be off, um, more and more, at least in the espionage world.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Um, absolutely, yeah.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  When is part two coming out? And why and why can't I read it beforehand for God's sakes?

• 47:05Jack Murphy?

  Because it's in draft form.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we have, I mean, the, uh, there's only two of us at the high side and, um, you know, we, we do our very best to make sure that the stories that come out, um, you know, adhere to all the, uh, the professional standards that you would, uh, expect, um, from much better financed, uh, news organizations, um.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  And, you know, and we have other stories. I mean, we have, just in terms of

• 47:50Speaker 01

  short-term news stories, probably three that we're trying to nail that I can just think of off the top of my head between us over the next week or two. And long-term projects, you know, as you've mentioned, we have the Willie Murkison story and the next the next, you know, that's been on a sort of a slight hiatus since the fall. But but we're coming back with a with a really big juicy story on that about a covert action in in Africa that you have to read about to to believe.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  And that's never been written about before, to my knowledge. And so, but I

• 48:40Speaker 01

  I'm always, I mean, Jack can speak for himself. I'm always reluctant ahead of time to say, we're going to bring this story out on this date. Because, you know, it can set you up for either letting people down or rushing something into print before it's quite ready and and and doesn't quite have the professional sheen that that we want it to have. But, I mean, we're probably talking for part two, sort of weeks, not months. I mean, Jack, you you let me know your thoughts.

• 49:10Jack Murphy?

  I mean, it's been so long. I mean, I have to go back and look at what we have, Sean, because I don't even know where we're at at the moment. And I think off the top of my head, I need to go and talk to some sources to to to get that out the door.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:26Jack Murphy?

  And yeah, there's there's a few other things we're working on at the same time.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  And again, just to remind the readers, every single story we're talking about now is something you would not have read before. Every single one.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Legitimate. Fairly significant potentially news stories that uh that that haven't been covered anywhere else. And I'm not trying to throw shade at uh at other news organizations.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  You could do it. Go ahead.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  They're choosing not to cover them. I'm just saying that there's a lot of stuff going on in the world and you know, every national security reporter in the United States is spread thin right now.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, um, I'm trying to remember in from the article CIA. When you guys go for comment, like they were just like boilerplate kind of comment.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, they gave us a one paragraph, you know, you know, we're trying to do, we're trying to do better by our offices. I mean, I'm paraphrasing there, but.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:26Jack Murphy?

  And then FBI didn't even respond.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yep, nothing from the FBI.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Wow, I mean, and listen, I I understand like probably Philadelphia is not exactly a spy capital.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  Compared to New York or DC and stuff is what I'm trying to say. But so like, but okay, you get the call and you have a couple CIA guys that are going or more that are going to the University of Pennsylvania for treatment. It's like, how about we shoot somebody, a couple of people up from DC and uh bolster these ranks a little bit? And do what we need to do. The Northern Virginia stuff is nuts to me as well, like where they're not all, their counterintelligence department is not, you know, and 10 is up. What's going on here? Let's let's figure it out. It it's kind of shocking to me and I get like probably the FBI is spread thin and stuff like that, like anybody else, but

• 51:20Speaker 02

  you would assume that counterintelligence, especially like Russian or Chinese or Cuban is priority one.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:29Jack Murphy?

  And it's also interesting to note the difference. This really isn't in the article, but there's a difference between how the Department of Defense and how the CIA responded to Havana syndrome. And my impression is that DOD, including SOCOM and JSOC, took this much more seriously, much quicker. And they saw it as like a problem we need to solve, like what's what's the fix? What let's do the army thing and figure out how to defeat this. Um, so they were, I don't want to say perfect or anything like that, but they were much more aggressive, I think, in confronting this than the intelligence community was. Oh, but then even then there are caveats, right? Um, I've been told that the NSA actually is a pretty aggressive on this.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  Okay. Um, what, why do you think the DOD stepped up faster and harder compared to CIA?

• 52:21Jack Murphy?

  I, I think it's a cultural issue. Um, I, I think it's just like army can do attitude, like let's jump into this and get it done. Whereas the CIA was like, this is a big headache. We don't, we don't want to have to deal with.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  Is it fair to assume we have weapons like this too? And we don't want to like, uh, say that we do or admit that we do or confirm we do?

• 52:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Gotta wait for part two.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Shit, okay. Now I just teased this. I mean, I, I gotta get this early release. This is unacceptable. I have a little bit of a in, into the high side, so I'm expecting the article before it goes to print, so I won't say anything, but. Cause the little, the first thing I said is like, Jack, send me part two. What are you doing? And he's like, it's not done yet. Oh my God.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  It's any credit. I mean, it reads like, it reads like a movie. It's like a thriller. It's insane. It, you can't believe that it's real life.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  What, what do people say? You're, I mean, I'm not particularly religious, but your words to God's ears, right? Feel free, feel free to, uh, let all your, uh, Hollywood contacts, uh.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  I will. I mean, I do have whatever, I mean, like I have some, so I'm, I will because it's. It's fucking nuts. It's, i- if I watched this in a movie, I would be like, this is bullshit. There's no way this is going on in the Amer- in America and, and Virginia and Philly.

• 53:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Harassing surveillance like on. I get it happens in Vienna. It happens everywhere else like we mentioned, but, uh, and they're, they're understanding that that's going to happen. It's going to be a hardship tour. It's what it is. Um, how, Adam and Mike, how are they, and Frank, how are they doing today in terms of symptoms? Uh, you know?

• 54:02Jack Murphy?

  They're doing better. Um, you know, part of this story is charting like their medical journey as well and interviewing the doctors and scientists that studied this. And, um, they went through some pretty extensive rehabilitation, uh, like.

• 54:18Jack Murphy?

  To re- what happens is the inner ear damage. It hits the vestibular system, which is what induces what's commonly known as vertigo. And then there's the eye, the actual brain damage. And there are treatments, there are therapies to go through. What the guys told me was that they don't so much cure the problem, but they teach them how to live with the symptoms, like how to adapt to them and adapt their lives around them. And so they're doing better now than they were. But the amount of

• 54:58Jack Murphy?

  bitterness and anger towards the United States government for how they were treated. The psychological damage, you know, sometimes called moral injury is very real. And and my sense is that it exists with all of them.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a it was a good part in the article where I think it was Mike, whoever the somebody who got hit and who was used to like performing at a high level, who could barely write cables and barely do their job, right? Like you live your whole life being a top performer and being able to handle these things and have a photographic memory and stuff like that. And then you go to not being able to concentrate, not be able to drive to work.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can understand the emotional and mental like fallout from doing from that, right?

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's that's and that's a common theme that you hear from, I don't want to say every last victim, but certainly.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  Mark Polymeropoulos mentioned the same thing.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, because these

• 56:03Speaker 01

  these are high speed individuals, you know, they, you know, it's it's not easy to get into CIA. It's it's not easy to get through some of the courses that you have to go through and.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  You know, when you emerge from that, you're a you're a you're a high speed individual who's now very highly trained. And to go from that to not being able to write properly, you know, um, to have to put stickies on, uh, you know, on, you know, on walls or on laptops to remind you what, you know, what to do and so forth. Um, that's, that's very psychologically troubling and, you know, at at least one of our, uh, at least one of our sources who we, you know, we quote extensively in the article, you know, struggled with suicidal ideation. Um, uh, as a result of that.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, it it it really is an incredible story. I'm not just saying it because I know you guys. I mean, I was on the edge of my seat reading it. I was, I couldn't fucking believe it because you've heard a lot of stories about the Havana syndrome and it's, it really, it really focuses more on like, um,

• 57:26Speaker 02

  CIA kind of, you know, running defense on these people, uh, trying, you know, censoring that that report that came out, things like that, which I think should be told as well. But like, you really get to the nitty gritty of like, the guy, the first people that got hit with this, right? Patient zero, who the name is Havana syndrome for a reason, right? It happened to a guy in Havana. Um, it's really incredible.

• 57:50Jack Murphy?

  CIA was really working overtime too, to craft the public narrative about this issue. Um, I've been told that they brought reporters from major newspapers into CIA for briefings before various IG reports came out.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  Insane.

• 58:04Jack Murphy?

  Why the day that it's internally released, the classified version is internally released, that very day, Washington Post has a story.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:13Jack Murphy?

  The CIA's story. It's the story they were given.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm sure there's some great reporters at those at those outlets, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal, New York Times, but. More and more, it seems like they are just basically glorified press, press secretaries.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  I, I, I wouldn't go that far.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  All right.

• 58:35Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 58:50Speaker 05

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 59:01Speaker 04

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 59:06Speaker 06

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 59:12Speaker 04

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 59:32Speaker 00

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• 59:59Speaker 02

  Being a little hyperbolic, it's okay. But you're telling me they're not, you know, exchanging positive stories for a little bit more access? And like for like the, the deputy director to answer their texts when they text them and things like that?

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  I, I don't know that, so I, I'm unwilling to make that.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  I'm completely, I'm completely speculating and making that accurate. Let me be fair. Okay.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  The title, the article is Lance Slaughter, part one. I cannot wait for part two. How the CIA failed its officers in Cuba and the FBI failed them at home.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  It's on the high side substack. The link is in the description. Work you're not going to read anywhere else. And if you're not a reader, they have an audio version. You can listen to it on the audio. If you, you know, you can't, you got hit by Havana's interment, can't read, I guess.

• 1:00:52Speaker 02

  Honestly, one of the better investigative articles I've read in a very long time. And it's, I mean, no duh. I mean, Sean Naylor and Jack Murphy, you guys know what the, what you're doing.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  Anything else? Tell me, what do, what do we got? Talk to me.

• 1:01:08Jack Murphy?

  Back.

• 1:01:10Jack Murphy?

  Um, on, on Havana or like in general?

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  Up to you, potpourri, bro.

• 1:01:16Jack Murphy?

  Um, yeah. So I mean, part two of the Havana syndrome story, um, I, I can't, and look, I've been on this topic honestly for so long. My head has been in it for so long that like, I can't really tell you like, well, like, like, does this story we published, like, how important is it? Is it going to be important to people? Is it not going to be? It's, it's hard for me to judge because I've been inside it for so long.

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Jack Murphy?

  Um, and with part two, it's going to be kind of like starting over again in some ways. Um, but that's going to get more into some of the technical specifications of the device that would be used to do this. Um, and how it works. And I interviewed some people who worked at quite high levels, uh, on this. Um, so that should be interesting. Um, and there's other pieces that we're working on. I'm working on other stories about the special operations community, about the intelligence community. Um, that hopefully we'll, uh, see out there in the next couple of months.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right. Yeah. And look out for the Willie Murkison, uh, continuation.

• 1:02:18Jack Murphy?

  Yep.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  We are also working on for the team house, for team house folks, uh, having Mark P. and possibly Adam on the show. From the article, which I'm looking forward to, uh, I'm really looking forward to that. Um, so I'll keep a lookout on that. Um, yeah, this is great. Guys, check out the article. It's the high side, uh, sub stack. Just Google the high side sub stack. The link will be in the description in the show notes. It's easy to find right there. All the other links for everybody will be down in the description as well. The high side Twitter, Sean's Twitter, Jack's Twitter, but he's not on Twitter. So if you think you're talking to Jack, you're talking to me.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  Everything else down in the description for all the boys to Mick, Andy and Jason. Um, and the best possible way you could, what you could do to support the show. First and foremost is patreon.com slash the team house.

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  Completely free ad, ad-free audio, video for both Eyes On and Team House. If you're a $10 member, you get a patch sent from me. It's right here, right next to me. I sent out like 30 yesterday, right there for $10 members. I gotta send you a patch, Sean.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  Patreon.com slash the Team House, the High Side Substack, Google it, or the link is in the description. Thanks, guys. This was great.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 1:03:41Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ashkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:03:55Speaker 05

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:04:06Speaker 04

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:04:11Speaker 06

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:04:17Speaker 04

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:04:37Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:05:13Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:05:28Speaker 05

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:05:39Speaker 04

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:05:44Speaker 06

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:05:50Speaker 04

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:06:10Speaker 07

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:06:46Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:07:01Speaker 05

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:07:12Speaker 04

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:07:17Speaker 06

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:07:23Speaker 04

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:07:43Speaker 07

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:08:20Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:08:34Speaker 05

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:08:45Speaker 04

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:08:50Speaker 06

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:08:56Speaker 04

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:09:16Speaker 07

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:09:47Speaker 09

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting,

• 1:09:55Speaker 09

  it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose, every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection, common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or fluke-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur.

• 1:10:37Speaker 09

  Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extenture. Learn more at extenture.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:10:47Speaker 08

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.