#606: Balaji S. Srinivasan — 5-10-Year Predictions, How to Start a New Country, Society-as-a-Service (SaaS), Bitcoin Maximalism, Memetic Warfare, How Prices Are Born, Moral Flippenings, The One Commandment, and The Power of Missionary over Mercenary

Brought to you by Eight Sleep’s Pod Pro Cover http://eightsleep.com/Tim sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating, Athletic Greens http://athleticgreens.com/tim all-in-one nutritional supplement, and Shopify http://shopify.com/tim global commerce platform providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business. Balaji S. Srinivasan (@balajis https://twitter.com/balajis) is an angel investor and entrepreneur. Formerly the CTO of Coinbase and general partner at Andreessen Horowitz, he was also the co-founder of Earn.com (acquired by Coinbase https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/16/coinbase-buys-earn-com-and-makes-ceo-balaji-srinivasan-its-first-cto/), Counsyl (acquired by Myriad https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1001277166032633856), Teleport (acquired by Topia https://teleport.org/blog/2017/04/teleport-a-move-guides-company/), and Coin Center https://coincenter.org/about. He was named to the MIT Technology Review’s “Innovators Under 35,” https://www.technologyreview.com/lists/innovators-under-35/2013/entrepreneur/balaji-srinivasan/ won a Wall Street Journal Innovation Award https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703470904575500353438285456, and holds a BS/MS/PhD in Electrical Engineering and an MS in Chemical Engineering, all from Stanford University. Balaji also teaches the occasional class at Stanford, including an online MOOC in 2013, which reached 250,000+ students worldwide. His new book is The Network State: How To Start a New Country https://www.amazon.com/Network-State-How-Start-Country-ebook/dp/B09VPKZR3G/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20. You can also read it for free at 1729.com http://1729.com/. Please enjoy! This episode is brought to you by Shopify http://shopify.com/tim! Shopify http://shopify.com/tim is one of my favorite platforms and one of my favorite companies. Shopify http://shopify.com/tim is designed for anyone to sell anywhere, giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved for big business. In no time flat, you can have a great looking online store that brings your ideas to life, and you can have the tools to manage your day-to-day and drive sales. No coding or design experience required. More than a store, Shopify grows with you, and they never stop innovating, providing more and more tools to make your business better and your life easier. Go to Shopify.com/Tim for a FREE 14-day trial and get full access to Shopify’s entire suite of features http://shopify.com/tim. * This episode is also brought to you by Eight Sleep http://eightsleep.com/Tim! Eight Sleep’s Pod Pro Cover http://eightsleep.com/Tim is the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced (and user-friendly) solution on the market. Simply add the Pod Pro Cover http://eightsleep.com/Tim to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55°F or as hot as 110°F. It also splits your bed in half, so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. And now, my dear listeners—that’s you—can get $250 off the Pod Pro Cover http://eightsleep.com/Tim. Simply go to EightSleep.com/Tim http://eightsleep.com/Tim or use code TIM at checkout. * This episode is also brought to you by Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim. I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually AG1 https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim by Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but AG https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. Right now, Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim is offering you their Vitamin D Liquid Formula free with your first subscription purchase—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. Visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim to claim this special offer today and receive the free Vitamin D Liquid Formula (and five free travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive all-in-one daily greens product. * [06:39] The current state of crypto and overall markets [14:41] Market depth and the Overton window [20:54] The challenges of identifying possible trends [24:25] Does transhumanism need rebranding? [27:13] Augmented reality glasses: the next big thing? [38:10] Rethinking Icarus from a transhumanist, pro-innovation perspective [59:20] DALL-E 2 as a compact programming language [1:02:03] Peter Turchin and cliodynamics [1:03:30] What is a network state? [1:17:49] Humans like to fight over borders—even when they're invisible [1:26:04] American anarchy [1:46:55] Bitcoin vs. gold as an inflation hedge [1:52:59] What needs to happen for Bitcoin to behave in the way Bitcoin holders would like it to behave? [2:24:29] Society as a service: how the establishment of a network state could succeed—without devolving into a cult [2:49:25] Chinese control; missionary over mercenary; innovation over top-down control [3:00:57] India's upward trends [3:05:57] Establishment disdain for tech interlopers (the feeling is mutual) [3:11:40] Parting thoughts * For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors http://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. 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• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. My God, am I in love with Eight Sleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than 30% of Americans struggle with sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep, and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, putting them back on, and repeating ad nauseam. But now, I am falling asleep in record time, faster than ever. Why? Because I'm using a simple device called the Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep. It's the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced, but most user-friendly solution on the market.

• 0:44Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:28Tim Ferriss?

  reduce sleep interruptions by up to 40%, and get more restful sleep overall. I can personally attest to this because I track it in all sorts of ways. It's the total solution for enhanced recovery, so you can take on the next day feeling refreshed. And now, my dear listeners, that's you guys, you can get $250 off of the Pod Pro Cover. That's a lot. Simply go to eightsleep.com/tim or use code TIM. That's eight, all spelled out, E-I-G-H-T, sleep.com/tim, or use coupon code TIM, T-I-M. Eightsleep.com/tim for $250 off your Pod Pro Cover.

• 2:11Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Shopify is one of my favorite companies out there, one of my favorite platforms ever. And let's get into it. Shopify is a platform, as I mentioned, designed for anyone to sell anything, anywhere, giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved for big business. So what does that mean? That means in no time flat, you can have a great looking online store that brings your ideas, products, and so on to life. And you can have the tools to manage your day to day business and drive sales. This is all possible without any coding or design experience whatsoever. Shopify instantly lets you accept all major payment methods. Shopify has thousands of integrations and third party apps from on demand printing to accounting to advanced chatbots, anything you can imagine.

• 2:56Tim Ferriss?

  They probably have a way to plug and play and make it happen. Shopify is what I wish I had had when I was venturing into e-commerce way back in the early 2000s. What they've done is pretty remarkable. I first met the founder, Toby, in 2008 when I became an advisor and it's been spectacular. I've loved watching Shopify go from roughly 10 to 15 employees at the time to 7,000 plus today, serving customers in 175 countries with total sales on the platform exceeding $400 billion. But what does that really mean? That means every 28 seconds, more or less, a small business owner makes their first sale on Shopify. More people in more places of all ages every single day.

• 3:38Tim Ferriss?

  They power millions of entrepreneurs from their first sale all the way to full scale. And you would recognize a lot of large companies that also use them who started small. So get started by building and customizing your online store, again, with no coding or design experience required. Access powerful tools to help you find customers, drive sales, and manage your day to day. Gain knowledge and confidence with extensive resources to help you succeed. And I've actually been involved with some of that way back in the day, which was awesome. The Build a Business competition and other things. Plus with 24/7 support, you're never alone. And let's face it, being an entrepreneur can be lonely, but you have support, you have resources, you don't need to

• 4:19Tim Ferriss?

  Feel alone in this case. More than a store Shopify grows with you and they never stop innovating, providing more and more tools to make your business better and your life easier. Go to Shopify.com slash Tim. That's S H O P I F Y dot com slash Tim. All lowercase for a free 14 day trial and get full access to Shopify's entire suite of features. Start selling on Shopify today. Go to Shopify.com slash Tim right now and check it out. They have a lot to offer. Shopify.com slash Tim.

• 4:54Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Now would be an inappropriate time.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 5:16Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. And my guest today is the one and only Balaji Srinivasan. You can find him on Twitter at Balaji S. Balaji is an angel investor and entrepreneur. He has the first and second place records for longest podcast episodes ever on this podcast. We will probably keep it to two and after three hours, I say with great confidence. Now formerly the CTO of

• 5:43Balaji Srinivasan?

  But people listen to them.

• 5:44Tim Ferriss?

  They do. They do.

• 5:45Balaji Srinivasan?

  People listen to them.

• 5:46Tim Ferriss?

  They did.

• 5:46Balaji Srinivasan?

  A lot of people.

• 5:47Tim Ferriss?

  These are two, the last two appearances were two of the most popular episodes, certainly in the last year to 18 months. Formerly the CTO of Coinbase and general partner at Andrey Tsunhorowitz. He was also the co-founder of Earn.com, acquired by Coinbase Council, acquired by Myriad, Teleport, acquired by Topia and Coin Center. He was named to the MIT Technology Review's Innovators Under 35, won a Wall Street Journal Innovation Award and holds a BS, MS, PhD in Electrical Engineering and an MS in Chemical Engineering, all from Stanford University. Balaji also teaches the occasional class at Stanford in his spare time, including an online MOOC in 2013, which reached 250,000 plus students worldwide. His brand new book is The network state, how to start a new country.

• 6:32Tim Ferriss?

  And we will certainly wade into those waters and explore all of the related topics in depth. But let us begin, if we can, Balaji, with the current state of the crypto market. I know a lot of people would love to hear your thoughts on what you're observing. And just to date this, we are recording July 1, 2022. And then perhaps hearing your thoughts on the India sphere. But let's begin with those two prompts.

• 6:59Balaji Srinivasan?

  Sure. So I'm not a trader, much more of a long-term investor slash angel slash VC. There's actually a, there's a fun tweet today by a guy, Travis underscore cling. I've been doing this for 46 straight months. I've never seen one like this before. And he's just got a list of all the carnage in the markets. And the thing is that carnage is in the crypto markets, but it's also in the, in the non crypto markets. And it's a little more pronounced in crypto, but it is definitely like a systemic type of thing. And the way I type, kind of think about it is I was, there's very few spaces that I get into where I don't have an all-weather thesis that works independent of the price.

• 7:43Balaji Srinivasan?

  And so I was in genomics way before, like people were talking about genomics. I was, you know, doing machine learning way before people were talking about machine. You know, it's kind of weird to see people talking about stuff that you're doing like 10 or 15 or whatever years ago, not to say in a thumb-chest way, but just that you want to try to identify these things that have value independent of that. And the fundamental value of cryptocurrency is can you have a system where the root permissions are independent of the US and Chinese establishments?

• 8:12Balaji Srinivasan?

  That is the fundamental question is one of digital freedom. And I can kind of tease that out and, but it's fundamentally, do you actually have property rights on the internet, digital property rights? Or can somebody with a police badge from the US or Chinese establishment, depending on what side of the world you're on, get into all of your stuff, surveil all your stuff, take all of your stuff, freeze and seize all of your stuff and so on and so forth. So that fundamental question of whether digital property rights should exist and whether they will be valuable in the medium to long term is what gives me confidence in the space, not the specific price. I can talk more, but that's prices down, prices up. I would only invest in those kinds of things that I believe further that aspect of like freedom and control.

• 8:58Tim Ferriss?

  Question for you. In our first episode, I think at some point you mentioned for someone who is not going to make a full-time study of things, splitting their allocation to crypto, and this is not investment advice, this is two people talking for informational purposes only, but splitting 50/50 Bitcoin ETH, does that still hold? Or would you, based on what you've seen since and what you are seeing now, maybe any developing theses change that?

• 9:31Balaji Srinivasan?

  No, I'd say stick with that. I mean, again, not investment advice and so on, but basically, those ecosystems are just still absolutely massive. If you look at, as I said, you know, I think I said something like, buy it and then hold it for 10 years. And let's see where we are in 10 years. The fundamentals in terms of not just number of users, but conversation, if Twitter was open source, or rather more specifically if it was open state, that is to say not just the source code was available, but the backend was available, the database was available, okay, not just through an API, but that you could just hit a key and see every tweet if you wanted to, every public tweet at least. If it was open state and you could plot the number and the depth of interactions on Bitcoin and Ethereum and

• 10:14Balaji Srinivasan?

  all of their offshoots, not just those keywords, but the thousands of keywords and memes and communities and so on that would be built on this, these are like countries that have built out. And those are things that just have mass to them. And you can mark them to market, they've got downs and they've got ups, but they are absolutely massive things with tens of millions of dedicated people around the world. And they've come out of nowhere. So yeah, I don't believe that they're gonna go away. But again, not financial advice, this is just my personal belief. You can get much more sophisticated than that. But like, the absolute worst thing to do, by the way, and this may be obvious, but I'll just say this, is the worst thing to do is buy an asset when it's in the news and sell it when it's in the news. And what you instead want to kind of do is it's inevitable that something will pique

• 10:59Balaji Srinivasan?

  your attention. And then what you do is you set a calendar reminder, you know, let's say 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, so that you are almost like retargeting yourself. And then you go and you actually do research on it outside of the scrum, outside of people yelling about it, you intentionally do it async to the market sentiment. There's a famous cartoon, there's a guy, he's like, this is like, it's a good buy. And someone overhears, they're like, buy, buy, buy, buy. And then the guy's like, this stock could really excel. And then someone overhears, sell, sell, sell, sell, you know, like this, right? And it's this hilarious sort of loop, which you don't want to be the current thing. You don't want to

• 11:42Balaji Srinivasan?

  be the person who is buying high, selling low. And I think the only way to not do that is set calendar reminders, assess your portfolio, like whether it's a quarterly basis or something like that, and try to make async decisions. You almost never want to sell on bad news, buy on good news. That's my macro outside of any given, you know, specific thing.

• 12:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, let me add one thing to that, which is humans in general, and I succumb to this sometimes, to overestimate their predictive abilities. So what is very helpful is set a time, it could be once a year, Jan. 1, Jan. 5, doesn't really matter, where you sit down and you identify, say, I'm just picking a timeframe, six months from now, and you grab a bunch of potential asset classes, or stocks, or indices. So maybe it's Bitcoin, barrel of oil, S and P 500, and make your predictions. And then set a reminder to look

• 12:41Tim Ferriss?

  at them three months or six months later, when you may, as you are influenced subconsciously by chatter on Twitter, trends in the news, and so on, to think that you know where things are going. Let's see how successful you were over the preceding six months. So that's also a good way to check your cognitive biases.

• 13:05Balaji Srinivasan?

  Let me talk about, can I talk about that for a second? The predictability of all, okay, so.

• 13:10Balaji Srinivasan?

  This is something I actually write about in the book, which is we're sort of re-entering high volatility times. And the thing about this is, most people don't think about it this way, but companies and governments shield people from volatility to an extent that we don't really think about that much. And now that shielding is going away. For example, when you go and buy like a laptop from Apple and they quote you some price, let's say, I don't know what it is, $14.99 or $19.99, I don't know what the number is, okay, I'm just making that up. When they quote you that price, that's a price that they are, they are, you know, selling it for, but the price of aluminum is bouncing around, the price of their rare earth elements on the back end, that's bouncing around.

• 13:53Balaji Srinivasan?

  Their cost of goods is, if they were just buying at spot prices, bouncing around every day. And so in theory, their margin could shrink or grow or whatever on a given day. Now, what do they do just to deal with this? They buy in bulk, they have various futures contracts and so on, they buy and sell collars. So they give up some of the upside on that margin to bound their downside, they're getting aluminum for X dollars per kilogram as opposed to greater than X or lower than X. So those companies actually buffer all kinds of crazy variations to give you that clean, dependable 99 or 29 or $14.99, whatever price. And governments do this as well in lots of other ways. That's why you don't have people walking down the streets with AKs.

• 14:38Balaji Srinivasan?

  That's why you don't have mobs pillaging and so on and so forth.

• 14:41Tim Ferriss?

  Wait, wait, wait, hold on. Can you tie those two things together? So I followed you on the futures contracts and maybe, you know, if they're dealing with currency, certainly they would have other protections in place, but how do we go from that to preventing people from walking around with AKs?

• 14:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  Sure, sure.

• 14:56Tim Ferriss?

  I believe there's a connection, I just would love for you to elaborate.

• 14:58Balaji Srinivasan?

  Absolutely. So it's social and financial volatility. And the way I think about it, so let's start with financial because it's more, it's a little more quantitative and people know about it. There's this concept called market depth. And if you've ever looked at Coinbase Pro or any crypto exchange, you see this like V like thing with the buy orders on one side and the sell orders on this side. And this is like how a price is born. Normally, most people in normal life are price takers. You go to the store and you buy orange juice for whatever the price is now, 50 bucks or something. I don't know what it is today, but you know what I'm saying, right? Okay. A gallon of orange juice is, I don't know,

• 15:38Balaji Srinivasan?

  some price, okay? And you're a price taker. It's set price, 4.99 or something like that. The thing is, if you start emptying out the shelves, if you buy 100 units of orange juice, and then you go to the next store, it might be 5.50. And then the third store hears you're coming, and they set it to seven bucks, and so on and so forth, right? You start moving the market price, you are now a price setter, in a sense, when you start clearing out units. So you've got 100 units at 4.99, and then 200 units at 5.50, and now you can get 300 units at 7. And your supply increases as the price increases. And then conversely, on the other side. And so that is actually how a price is born. Most people don't usually think about this because you're buying like single, individual

• 16:20Balaji Srinivasan?

  consumer units. You're not like a bulk purchaser. But when you're purchasing in bulk, suddenly, people are negotiable. You know, they can, they can make more money on it. They're okay with negotiating. Okay, what's my point? This idea of market depth, just like we see like a price shift back and forth, you know, with sentiment, that's the same concept in financial terms as the Overton window. The Overton window is the set of what things are politically acceptable. And sentiment shifts back and forth. There's a thing, here's the current center, and as radicals, you know, push, that thing that was totally unthinkable moves to the center. Or conversely, conservatives push, and suddenly it gets pushed back. That's kind of like buy and sell pressure. In fact, you can think of it a lot like that on any given issue. And you have essentially almost

• 17:05Balaji Srinivasan?

  like votes. You have a thousand votes for this level of the policy, and 5,000 votes for this level of policy, and 10,000 votes for this level of policy. And then you have someone the other side. And when you can shift over those vote banks, you shift that midpoint, which is a policy, just like if you can shift over the order book, you shift over the price.

• 17:24Tim Ferriss?

  The price. Yeah, that's clever. I like that.

• 17:27Balaji Srinivasan?

  So once you kind of see That is the macro of how I think about prices and policies. You know, when people say, oh, it's getting political. What they're really talking about is, just like with the price example, most people are price takers. You know, as I said, you go and buy the orange juice. Just like most people are law takers. The policy is just applied to you. But if somebody is like powerful enough, or it's like a weird enough situation, that law flexes. Concrete example, Singapore, you know, a couple, I'm taking an example that's like out of our time and place, you know, and so on. So people don't get mad. Singapore, like two and a half decades ago, I think in 1987, there was an American citizen, Michael Fay, who was vandalizing things in Singapore.

• 18:09Tim Ferriss?

  I remember this.

• 18:10Balaji Srinivasan?

  You remember this, right? And Singapore was going to cane him as per Singapore law. And frankly, had he been a Singaporean, or he'd have been anybody other than an American, he would have been a law taker. Okay, the law would have just been applied. But all kinds of pressure got applied on this side of the policy market. And Lee Kuan Yew was like, okay, we're going to like reduce the number of strokes of the cane. He didn't set it to zero because that would have been too much of a give. But as a consideration for the, like, the US government made it like a diplomatic situation. And like the president got involved and all this stuff for tiny Singapore. So the pressure for Singapore was significant on the policy side.

• 18:54Balaji Srinivasan?

  And so now the law was negotiable. That's what it means for something to quote, get political is that you have huge masses of people that assemble and they shift the midpoint of the Overton window. Just like huge masses of people shift the midpoint of a price. The thing is, as I mentioned earlier with Twitter, that backend is not open state. So because it's not open state, we cannot see sentiment moving as we can with price, not as easily.

• 19:23Tim Ferriss?

  Not as easily. There are other tools that I also, you probably don't know this, but I pay a good amount of attention to this type of thing on a number of fronts. So Google Trends, I mean, they're not open state exactly, but you can track certain types of sentiment or interest or fear longitudinally. But continue, I didn't mean to interrupt.

• 19:46Balaji Srinivasan?

  No, no, no, you're right. In one sense, we've got far more information than we ever had. In another sense, I know we have 100 or 1,000 X left to go. And the reason is that, think about the difference between, and this is a tech analogy, so you might be like, well, think about it, huh? Okay, but think about the difference between AT&T, Unix and Linux, okay? Now, most people, all right, so if you're an engineer, you're like, yeah, dude, AT&T Unix was, was good, but it wasn't hackable. I couldn't customize it. I couldn't take it apart, look at the engine block. I couldn't make it work on tiny devices and giant servers. I couldn't make it mine. And so currently, it's good, yes, that we have Google Trends and that we have,

• 20:29Balaji Srinivasan?

  like, you can kind of get some sense from the Twitter API and so on. But they're very locked down in a certain way where there's queries you can't easily run. You might have to pay a lot for the API and so it's over. Versus if that dataset was open, we'd have a completely different understanding of society and history and politics. It would be at the same level as the unlock going from AT&T Unix to Linux. Or the unlock of going from like PayPal to Bitcoin.

• 20:54Tim Ferriss?

  So let me jump in because the next question I want to ask is, what's some of the, to you, most foreseeable technological developments are that you say almost treat as assumptions in building out your vision for the future over the next X years? And you can choose X. And this might be a place also where we can sneak in and I'll let you do it. One very primitive way, maybe it's primitive, you tell me, but it's a lo-fi way of identifying possible trends through, you pointed out a stealth topic that showed up in my most popular episodes in the last 12 months. I'll let you take that wherever you'd like.

• 21:36Balaji Srinivasan?

  What's the stealth topic? So I saw the list of the top 10 Tim Ferriss podcasts last year, where I was number one and number two, despite how long they were. So hopefully, you know, the listeners got something out of it. It was an honor just to be nominated.

• 21:49Tim Ferriss?

  I'd like to thank the Academy.

• 21:52Balaji Srinivasan?

  Very importantly, by the way, to my knowledge, the Tim Ferriss rankings are not juiced or editorialized and so on. Did you know that you're probably aware of this, maybe your listeners aren't, the New York Times Bestseller Rankings are an editorial product?

• 22:06Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, absolutely. I'm 100% aware of that because I had, just to give an example, one launch week with one of my books, which came out through Amazon Publishing, which put me squarely in the crosshairs of almost everyone in the traditional book/publishing world, sold, I want to say 120,000 copies through Nielsen BookScan for that one week, and it was number four on the New York Times Bestseller List in my category. And the book that hit number two sold somewhere between 10,000 and 12,000 copies verified through Nielsen BookScan.

• 22:43Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah. So do you know about the Exorcist lawsuit?

• 22:46Tim Ferriss?

  I don't. I do not.

• 22:49Balaji Srinivasan?

  Okay. So basically, back in the 80s, the guy who wrote the book The Exorcist, which actually got turned into a movie, sued the New York Times because his book hadn't been, a different book, Legion, hadn't been included in the Bestseller List. And in their explicit written defense in the courtroom, NYT said, "The Bestseller List was actually neither mathematically calculated nor was it an objective measure of sales. Rather, it was editorial content, and as such was protected as free speech under the US Constitution." So it's actually, the most charitable interpretation is like Google's rankings. Google's rankings, what is the number one hit for Sinatra? Now, what's funny is you'll get a different, if

• 23:31Balaji Srinivasan?

  you Google it, you'll probably actually be surprised. For a long time, it was the Sinatra web framework, and now it's Frank Sinatra, the Wikipedia article. And the thing is, that's a great example of what should it be. Most people who are looking for Sinatra are probably looking for the web framework, but most people on the planet-

• 23:49Tim Ferriss?

  That is the most apology statement ever. Continue. Do you think that's true?

• 23:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  Okay, most people who are querying Sinatra as opposed to Frank Sinatra.

• 23:59Tim Ferriss?

  I see, I see what you're saying. Okay, all right, fair enough.

• 24:01Balaji Srinivasan?

  Because you know, it's like a very proper noun to query, right? So if you could measure it and Google is kind of coming that when it was good, it was measuring this kind of stuff. Their intent, basically, you could argue as to what was number one. Is it the thing that people want to get? It's like searching for apple. Should it be the fruit there or should it be? Well, actually, if they look for apples, they want the fruit. If they want apple, then they want the company, that kind of thing. Anyway, but Sinatra is a good example. Point being that that's something, at least Google people kind of know that the ranking is not objective. When you call it a bestseller list, the impression is that it's a numerically ranked thing. And it's not editorialized, but it is. Anyway, point being, coming all the way back up.

• 24:41Balaji Srinivasan?

  Tim Ferriss's unjuiced, unedited list was interesting because I looked at that. That's actually kind of some open source analytics itself. And when I, when I looked at that, I was like, you know, this is interesting. There is a stealth topic here, which I'm also really interested in, that Tim's listeners are interested in. And I'm not sure it's being named as such, and that is transhumanism. And that's Huberman Lab, that's life extension, that is brain machine interface, and it's limb regeneration. It's all your fitness stuff. It is all the recovery stuff and so on. All of that is sort of a whole growing positive, in my view, positive trend. The problem is people have pathologized it. They think transhumanism is like the, I don't know, the Klaus Schwab version from the World Economic Forum,

• 25:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  where you all become mishap and monsters and you're edited and you know, you're.

• 25:30Tim Ferriss?

  Harvesting adrenochrome from orphan children in Romania.

• 25:35Balaji Srinivasan?

  That's right. So we need probably a different term for it. And I've got some terms that I've been thinking about. Often you have the positive and the negative version of any term. Like you can, you know, Russell conjugate it positively and negatively. Like, um, you know, he was righteously angry or he was incandescently mad or whatever. You know, you can like, you can change the tone of how.

• 25:59Tim Ferriss?

  Sweat, transpire, glisten, depending on.

• 26:02Balaji Srinivasan?

  Exactly. I, you know, I sweat, he perspires, she glows, right? What was I saying? Uh, so.

• 26:07Tim Ferriss?

  Transhumanism and alternate.

• 26:10Tim Ferriss?

  Terms.

• 26:11Balaji Srinivasan?

  That's right. So whatever else you might call it, you could call it, I like to use the term optimalism as opposed to optimism. You are optimizing yourself. You are being positive. There's an objective function. Transhumanism, you might say it's just a change or that change is positive or negative is unstated. But optimism is, in a sense, you're improving. You're getting better. It is like optimal physical fitness. It is optimal health. It is taking care of oneself. It is optimizing finances. It is optimizing everything very in tune with, I think, what a lot of your listeners are for, right? So that, to me, if you ask about foreseeable futures, transhumanism is an all-weather thing, or let's call it optimism. People will want to get better. And I think science

• 26:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  is now really starting to catch up there. And this is actually one of the good things about the state sort of receding and coming back and not being able to, like the overton window on this is absolutely moving. People are much more skeptical of the FDA. And that actually has good aspects because it means that more treatments and so on can get through. All right. So you asked about foreseeable futures. So one of them is optimism slash transhumanism. A second one, which I think is, this is, this will be completely obvious to pretty much everybody who's in, let's say, big tech, but maybe not as obvious to people outside, is augmented reality glasses. Should I talk about this?

• 27:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 27:30Balaji Srinivasan?

  So in the late 90s, and probably the early 2000s, people talked about the so-called convergence device. And you can go and look at the LexisNexis archives and so on. Bill Gates would talk about the convergence device. And what did he mean by that? He thought it was going to be like a television, which would combine like a computer and a phone and all of these other things. Why? It's because in the 80s and 90s, everybody had a TV and everybody talked about the TV. And the household gathered around it and they interacted with the remote. So it seemed like a reasonable thing that people who'd be habituated to using a TV could do something else, right? And it turned out to actually, the convergence device was not the television. It was, it was the phone that acquired all of those characteristics.

• 28:15Balaji Srinivasan?

  But they were correct that there was going to be a convergence device. And there were also people who were interested in, quote, "mobile" prior to the iPhone. Jack Dorsey, actually, the reason Twitter, I believe, has 140 characters is it was some like SMS payload constraint that, you know, he understood how important mobile was going to be years before the iPhone even came out, right? Most people were not seeing that. Most people, even after the iPhone came out, there's this great Quora thread that's a time capsule that's something like, "What's the point of mobile apps?" It was like in 2010, actually, and they're like, "What's the point of mobile apps? Is it just going to show me coupons as I walk by a store?" Do you know, have I talked to you about this?

• 28:52Tim Ferriss?

  No.

• 28:53Balaji Srinivasan?

  So my friend, Yashon Wong, he actually, I think he replied to this, let me see if I can find this, "Without mentioning coupons, why and how is mobile the future? Or will the next revolution really be based around deals and incentives?" I think it was from 2010 or something like that, right? And the thing is, that post is a great time capsule because from today's standpoint, we're like, "What are mobile apps good for?" Everything, everything is good mobile, right? There's, there's Uber, and there's Airbnb, and there's Google Maps, and on and on and on. And then when you actually go and think about it, the issue is that a lot of the, because people have been so used to operating computer in secal fashion, meaning immobile,

• 29:38Balaji Srinivasan?

  their imagination wasn't enough. They're like, "Why would I just want to do that on the go? I don't have a full mouse, I don't have a keyboard, I have to tap on a screen and so and so forth." And Yashon's point was, humans are mobile. And so therefore, even if the interface is smaller, even if your UX is worse, even if it's more constrained and it can't do everything, it has that thousand X value proposition that it's always available to you at all times. And that alone means that every app will become a mobile app. This is totally obvious today, it's probably pretty obvious by 2015. It was absolutely non-consensus by like 2009, 2010, when that thread came out. Except for within the tech people who are investing in mobile. What is kind of similar to that?

• 30:23Balaji Srinivasan?

  And of course, not every future comes to bear and so and so forth. But what would I consider something which in like five years or 10 years are going to be like, duh, super obvious, of course, huh? You know, and now today they think you're a weirdo and that's never going to happen. Okay. You know, when it goes from you're stupid and insane and that'll never happen to obviously that would always be the way it was. I love that because there's a very short gap in the middle of that exponential. You know, other things I've liked that were like masks during COVID or pseudonymity, actually, in the crypto community, you know. What is, what is specific on? So AR glasses. So AR glasses, if you combine a few things, so Snapchat Spectacles, which to Spiegel's immense credit, he has persisted with after tons of criticism and hardware is really

• 31:08Balaji Srinivasan?

  hard to iterate on, right? So, you know, he has persisted with that. He's made that a big thing. And I give him a lot of credit for that because it's very difficult to do that over multiple generations. It's the kind of thing that your CFO wants to cut. It's the kind of thing that the street doesn't like. It can be low margin, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, Spectacles are out there. I'm not sure what, how well they're doing, but I, they've definitely improved a lot. I like them. I have no Snapchat stock, by the way, I'm just saying, whatever thing, it's a good product. Spectacles, Facebook's Oculus Quest, again, something which Zuck deserves, I think, a huge amount of credit for putting $2 billion into that 10 years ago. They're only now really starting to recoup it because there were several iterations and there was a lot of technology that need to go into Oculus Quest to get it to where it is now.

• 31:50Balaji Srinivasan?

  Oculus Quest, so Spectacles, Oculus Quest, Google Glass Enterprise, which I think is doing like reasonably well. Google Glass Enterprise, basically they're using it for industrial applications, not walking down the street yet, but for industrial applications like a, like a surgeon or a mechanic or something like that.

• 32:05Tim Ferriss?

  Less likely to get punched in the face when you're using it that way.

• 32:09Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah, right. Well, so come to that point. Apple's AR kit, AR kit is like, you can hold your phone up and you can see like a glowing orb or something like that on the other side. Or, you know, for example, you've got a ruler app in the phone and you can hold it up and it'll just boom, it'll show you blueprint style what the measurements are of your walls. And then, you know, apps like Pokemon Go, right? Which are augmented reality apps. And you put all of that together. And what do you get? You get something which looks and feels just like a normal pair of glasses that you'd get from LensCraft or something like that. But you tap it and you get Terminator vision over the world. And maybe you tap it again, and it darkens and you're in VR. And it's

• 32:54Balaji Srinivasan?

  as lightweight as normal glasses, which we know are a form factor that people do use. Millions of people use them every day. They look like normal glasses, so they don't like stick out to the world at large. But what they do is they now make you hands free. So remember the thing we were saying, humans are always mobile. Well, why would people want AR glasses? They want the use of their hands. They want the use of their hands and they want to be outside and they don't want to be stuck inside all the time. And so this will make us truly mobile again, because you won't be, you know, mobile phones will be seen as this intermediate stage where you go and walk around, you're like, you know, like this all the time, right? And I'm not sure if it's Huberman who said this on your podcast or something, but he was like, you know, the way to wake up, to be alert

• 33:37Balaji Srinivasan?

  is to like, look up. Do you know that trick?

• 33:40Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I think he did share that on his and my first conversation on the podcast. I believe that was in that episode.

• 33:51Balaji Srinivasan?

  It's almost like, you know, you got like this primitive caveman and he's coming out of the cave and he's like, who will Aug smash today? You know, and looking, looking up like this, you know, and he's like, kind of surveying and he's alert or whatever, right? That maybe that's the adaptation. But the opposite of that is staring down at your phone. And actually, Sergey Brin many years ago remarked that it was emasculating to do that. And who knows what the biomechanical feedback loop that's going on is, but heads up is heads up.

• 34:21Tim Ferriss?

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• 35:04Tim Ferriss?

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• 35:42Tim Ferriss?

  How much of the purpose of Alexa as a device in the home, do you think is just developing training data and better tech so that it can be ported over to mobile use and some type of application with AR enabled glasses?

• 36:00Balaji Srinivasan?

  I mean, it's a really good business in its own right. I mean, they've sold tens, if not hundreds of millions of those devices. So, but yeah, the training data helps, helps a lot. And all three companies, you know, Apple, Google and Amazon have, you know, these smart speaker things, which are, oh, they're kind of interesting, right? You know, the, you know, like some, if you snapshot today and then you think back 30 years, the kinds of things that have converged, the clock radio has become this. That's like the, the closest analog to that in the 1980s household for an Amazon Alexa thing is that. And, you know, the phone obviously has combined lots and lots of different gadgets. And then we're going to now see, you know, if you look at like the Solana crypto phone, when you walked out of your house in the eighties or nineties, you'd have your wallet

• 36:45Balaji Srinivasan?

  and your keys, and then maybe your credit card, and then later you have your phone. And it'll be a physical wallet and a physical key and a credit card and so on. And eventually that's all going to converge into a different kind of thing because it's amazing that your cash and your wallet and your keys to your car and your credit card can all be thought of as a private key on your phone.

• 37:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I suspect I suspect we're very close to that, right? I mean, you have Tesla, which is phone tethered, and then you have, say, Apple Wallet, and then you have, you know, fill in the blank. We're very close to that, I would imagine.

• 37:19Balaji Srinivasan?

  We're close, but it's one of those things. It's sort of like gathering threads, you know, so you have to gather all of the skeins together so that now a Tesla car can be basically opened by your phone. And then you have to sell so many Tesla cars that's like 10% of the market. You've educated the market. And then you do it for, you know, your wallets for your private keys, and then you do it for your passwords and so on. So you're gathering all of these different skeins, and then you, you know, make that tapestry or that coil.

• 37:48Tim Ferriss?

  What is that word that you're using? Skein?

• 37:51Balaji Srinivasan?

  S K E I N.

• 37:53Tim Ferriss?

  E I N. All right. New word.

• 37:56Balaji Srinivasan?

  It's like a length of, I think, official definition.

• 37:58Tim Ferriss?

  A length of thread or a yarn loosely coiled and knotted. Got it.

• 38:02Balaji Srinivasan?

  Maybe I'm mispronouncing it.

• 38:03Tim Ferriss?

  Skein. No, you got it. Skein. All right. Yes, you gather the skeins. Sorry to interject.

• 38:10Balaji Srinivasan?

  So you asked for foreseeable futures. So first is transhumanism slash optimism. I had this tweet, which is, "Super Soldier Serum is Real." Have you seen this one?

• 38:20Tim Ferriss?

  I have not.

• 38:22Balaji Srinivasan?

  Okay, so you'll like this one. I may have mentioned this before, but if not, "Super Soldier Serum is Real." Okay, this article is from PLOS. It's like 15 years old or whatever.

• 38:31Tim Ferriss?

  Myostatin inhibitors or something? Possibly.

• 38:33Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah, exactly. And so on the left hand side, wild type mouse, on the right hand side, myostatin null. And look at the chest on that guy. Like, holy moly. So that's why I put like the Captain America before and after.

• 38:46Tim Ferriss?

  If you are able to work with knockout genes and so on, you end up with animals like bully whippets. So people who have seen a whippet will envision this very, very, very thin.

• 38:59Tim Ferriss?

  Dog that looks something like a greyhound, but if you look up a bullywhip it, you will see something very, very different indeed. And there are also cattle breeds that are, have been bred selectively, which is the slow way to do it for this type of myostatin inhibition. So they end up looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger times 10, basically.

• 39:20Balaji Srinivasan?

  Exactly. That's right. And the thing is that, you know, this movie Limitless that I really like, and the reason I like it is it changes the normal Hollywood formula at the end. See, normally many Hollywood formula, you know, movies about science fiction stuff nowadays have a sort of Icarus thing to them. He flew, he was too bold and he flew too close to the sun and his wings melted and he came back to the earth and, and, you know, he should not have ever flown in the first place. And it's basically like, you arrogant technologist, you added, there's always some constraint and it will be subtracted from you. You'll never learn, right? This kind of intrinsic conservatism. And what's awesome about, it's a 10 year old

• 40:02Balaji Srinivasan?

  movie, so I'm spoiling it for people. But what's awesome about the end of Limitless is that he engineers away that constraint. And because in real life, guess what? All of our planes don't crash either. We managed to outdo Icarus. It wasn't like some arrogance of thinking we could fly. We could fly, right? We could figure it out. Yes, there were some crashes. We figured it out. We got it down to, you know, not just the science, but to an engineering. And so similarly, a lot of people, when you show stuff like this myostatin thing or whatever, they'll be like, oh, but it'll give you cancer or, you know, steroids will screw you up, man, or whatever. I'm like, that may be the case if you are not throwing all the science and engineering in the world at it. Okay. So here's a kind of controversial statement. You know Lance Armstrong,

• 40:45Balaji Srinivasan?

  the Tour de France winner who cheated and, right? I may be getting some of the facts wrong in this, but my understanding is he had serious testicular cancer. His doctors gave him some kind of treatment and then he did, you know, he came back to win multiple Tour de Frances. Like, he was outracing other guys, many of whom were also juiced. Okay. But the point is, yes, within the game, sure, he broke the rules, should be punished. I don't dispute any of that. From an abstract perspective, I want to know what his chemists were doing because that is some like Nobel Prize worthy stuff. To bring back somebody from testicular cancer to that level of physical fitness? Is insane, whatever it was that they were doing. Now, is it possible? People, again,

• 41:27Balaji Srinivasan?

  they'll come up with the Icarus line, what are you talking about? He probably dropped five years off his life. Okay, maybe he did. I actually don't know. But if he did, I think a lot of people might still take that trade off in the trade off space to come from testicular cancer to like ridiculously ultra fit and so on. But five years lesson of life.

• 41:47Tim Ferriss?

  Let me hop in here because this is, this is one domain where I have, I have some familiarity. So for people who want to get an idea of how doping functions at the highest levels, or the higher levels, at the highest levels, you'd need to get the, actually, there's a film called Icarus, of all things.

• 42:05Balaji Srinivasan?

  Oh, really?

• 42:06Tim Ferriss?

  A documentary which goes into the Soviet states use of doping and from a biochemical and also even just mechanical logistics perspective, it's just staggeringly complex and fascinating, I think. There's a book also, it's quite old, but called Game of Shadows, Barry Bonds, Balco and the steroid scandal that brought professional sports, which is also a, a, quite a good read when it comes to, assuming you don't want to get into too much of the biochemistry, but let me say just two things. So one is related to Lance, their arguments have been made that until he lost muscle mass through cancer treatment,

• 42:47Tim Ferriss?

  primarily in his upper body, that he was an excellent cyclist, but not of the caliber that we saw afterwards. And that part of the success, not all of it, but a component to the increased level of success was-

• 43:01Balaji Srinivasan?

  Again, it's a, it's a new version of like bulk and cut.

• 43:03Tim Ferriss?

  It was the recomposition of, of his body and distribution of muscle mass. I do think the Lance example is super interesting. And I would just also pick up on one lost skein, I'll use skein from earlier. If people want to see examples of, literally, they're referred to as double muscled cattle. So these are mutations, due to mutations in the coding sequence of bovine myostatin. Belgian blue is the one that you can most easily find. And this, the photographs of this are quite mind boggling.

• 43:38Balaji Srinivasan?

  Oh, yeah. Belgian blue is great. Yep.

• 43:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yep. So people can-

• 43:40Balaji Srinivasan?

  That's the- The traps on that thing are just crazy.

• 43:44Tim Ferriss?

  The everything, it doesn't look like, it doesn't even look like they should be able to walk. And in some cases, due to selective breeding and other types of interventions, that is the case with chickens now, who are bred for consumption, you know, they can't support their own weight on their legs past whatever it is, I'm making it up, something like week six, but I don't want to take us too far afield. We're going to come back to the network state, but.

• 44:08Balaji Srinivasan?

  Wait, I, I, I want to talk about this thing you just said, and let's come to the network state.

• 44:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 44:13Balaji Srinivasan?

  So, so one thing that's kind of important about this is, and this relates to the network state thing, you know, the title of that book, Game of Shadows, and some of the words cheat and, you know, fraud and, you know, so on and so forth. The fundamental issue, and even with the Soviets and so on, right? All of this stuff is being done in the shadows, it's on the border of the system, it's by the bad guys. What it reminds me of is actually in the Soviet Union itself, there were two kinds of groups that talked about capitalism. The first were the dissidents, you know, the guys who eventually, you know, became reformers and so on and so forth. That was a tiny, tiny, tiny minority of people. They're the people who could get outside of their childhood and all the propaganda

• 44:58Balaji Srinivasan?

  on how evil those capitalists were, weren't they imperialists, weren't they pointing guns at us? Hadn't they killed our, you know, brave Soviet soldiers? Hadn't Lenin's revolution? Hadn't everybody sacrificed so that you, the worker, could have this bountiful life and you're so ungrateful and evil? So that, there's that small group of academic types who could get outside their head. But there was a much larger second group of capitalists. You know what those guys were?

• 45:22Tim Ferriss?

  Tell me.

• 45:24Balaji Srinivasan?

  The black marketeers. And they lived down to every stereotype of the regime. They would cut you for some vodka. They were totally unregulated shadow capitalists.

• 45:34Tim Ferriss?

  So are those guys Team Bology? I'm just trying to.

• 45:36Balaji Srinivasan?

  No, no, no, no, no. Tying this together. My point is that when our moral premise, in the Soviet Union, the moral premise was capitalism is bad. And if capitalism is a crime, only criminals will be capitalists. And it took enormous amount of effort over 70 years to flip that moral premise and be like, look, capitalism is at least acceptable, if not good. And then what happens is all of this stuff, you unlock the basic dispassionate.

• 46:07Balaji Srinivasan?

  Gears of civil society. You have accounting and you have supply chains and you have financing. You have all this stuff that we think of as like boring corporate stuff where it comes out of the shadows into you have courts that deal with edge cases because in the abstract, basically, once you've denounced capitalism and pushed it into a corner, the Soviets could say, and what happens if someone cheats you, huh? Well, that's what happens under capitalism. And the answer is, yes, it does. True that scams or whatever do happen, but we have courts and we have mechanisms. And, you know, in, in the abstract, the whole thing can be denounced as obviously unworkable and so complicated. You have all these edge cases. You have the Chancery Court, which determines in the liquidation, who gets what kind of outcome. You have senior

• 46:52Balaji Srinivasan?

  debt. You have all this type of stuff, right? Sorry, I know I'm mixing a few things. Point is you have like Delaware law and corporate law. You have liquidation preferences. You have

• 47:01Tim Ferriss?

  Went from Belgian blue to Delaware corporate law in 27 seconds. I, I like it. The range.

• 47:07Balaji Srinivasan?

  Point is basically that there are a lot of details when you actually come and implement capitalism. And from the outside, if you haven't done that, it makes it sound like too complicated, a Rube Goldberg machine that'll never work. Why don't we just, you know, seize everything, comrade, and redistribute it from the state? And the thing that's already there is the thing that's functioning. And the thing that isn't there is the thing that seems can be attacked in a thousand ways is the system that doesn't exist. Point is, once that moral premise got flipped, once it was allowed for the bulk of 99% of people to engage in this, yeah, there's a whole machinery that comes in. And so, once we can flip that moral premise, and we can say, look, life extension is good, and more muscle is good, and the whole Icarus narrative is wrong, the Wright Brothers are right, Icarus

• 47:52Balaji Srinivasan?

  is a myth, right? Wright Brothers, that's a reality. We actually were able to fly. Icarus is just a mythical thing. The reality is a Boeing 747, right? Or, or whatever, Airbus, you know, name, name, name some recent aviation company that hasn't had some issues, but whatever, right? The overall, you know, planes work. So in the same way, once we flip that moral premise and say, optimism, good, you know, enhancement, good.

• 48:14Balaji Srinivasan?

  Then we start shifting it out of Game of Shadows and Soviets and, you know, the doping scandals and cheat, all those negative adjectives. And we start going to the positive stuff of, you know, what Heuerman is doing and what David Sinclair is doing and so on and so forth. The reason I just want to identify this, I actually think that moral language, that moral premise

• 48:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 48:34Balaji Srinivasan?

  is everything and it's often not articulated.

• 48:36Tim Ferriss?

  No, I agree with you. And just like making the market, setting the price depth charts, we talked a bit about the overton window and sort of shifting that depth chart as a way of becoming political if you're an active player, so to speak. And I think that also applies here. I just want to say a couple of things about the doping and performance enhancement, just for people who may be interested in going a little bit deeper. Another documentary, and you can learn a lot just by watching, first, I would suggest Bigger

• 49:09Balaji Srinivasan?

  Bigger, Faster, Stronger?

• 49:10Tim Ferriss?

  Well, it's Bigger, Faster, Stronger, but I think for trademark purposes, they probably flipped it. Bigger, Stronger, Faster is a documentary that was, that was made in 2008. And it is a fascinating exploration of performance enhancement. And it also shows the advantages that richer countries have in performance. And in a sense, doping and competition at the highest levels is very similar to, let's call it tax optimization on the positive side, tax evasion, if you want to look at it through that lens or with that legal painting, is they will look at something like, in this documentary, use

• 49:51Tim Ferriss?

  of erythropoietin. So EPO used to increase the oxygen carrying capacity of your blood, right? Which is why athletes also will use blood doping. So they might have use of EPO banned by WADA, right? So you cannot do this in the realm of sports. That's against the rules. Then you have blood doping, which at different points and in different capacities has been either allowed or not allowed. It's the same thing, right? If you train at altitude and then you develop blood that has more oxygen carrying capabilities and then you infuse yourself with that, that's kind of Quadrant two, then you have quadrant three, which is like sleeping in an altitude simulation tent. So and they're different paradise.

• 50:31Balaji Srinivasan?

  What are the axes? Sorry, I missed the axes.

• 50:32Tim Ferriss?

  Forget about the axes for now. It's just comparing four to four different options. And then there are a few others. And it's just to point out that the, and again, I don't want to dwell on this too long. You can look at four approaches to achieving the same ends with different legal status or different status with respect to the rules, which doesn't automatically mean all of them should be allowed, in my opinion. But secondarily, like there are countries that do not have Olympic sized swimming pools to train in and nonetheless have athletes who are sent to the Olympics to compete in swimming. Right? So I do think that there

• 51:11Tim Ferriss?

  are, in some respects, incentives that are aligned with athletes to preserve the current state of doping, because with more money, with more state support, you can actually game the system more effectively than, not necessarily lesser players, but less resourced players. So I would just say that I don't think all athletes would want to agree to, nor teams, nor states to say the all drug Olympics. If people haven't seen the all drug Olympics skit from Saturday Night Live, they should look it up. It's actually pretty entertaining.

• 51:47Balaji Srinivasan?

  So let me poke on this a little bit, because I

• 51:50Tim Ferriss?

  Let me add one more thing. Then you can poke on this too. I would also say, definitely, I'm not a doctor, I don't play one on the internet, but people should, muscle mass is good to a point, preserving muscle mass, avoiding age-related muscle atrophy, like sarcopenia, super important, bone density, etc. But there are arguments to be made that stepping on the gas with anabolism could be

• 52:17Tim Ferriss?

  Contra indicated for longevity past a certain point. So I would just say there's a, there's a balancing act between sort of autophagy and, and a number of things we know work for longevity as it stands right now, at least in mice and, and possibly in canines. And that balance is something I think people should, should look at. There will be a future guest on this podcast, Dr. Matt Cabrelion. That conversation's going to get into a lot of that. But please feel free to push back or tease apart.

• 52:48Balaji Srinivasan?

  I want to poke on one thing, just one thing. Actually, I love, I love this. It's great. I'm learning stuff also. But the framing of it in terms of athletes and the Olympic Games or Drug Olympic Games and so on. The thing is, you know, as you're aware, in this century or in this phase of humanity, we're moving away from spectator sports. And I don't really care that much about the Olympics or the NFL or something like that. But I do care about physical fitness and running and, you know, lifting and so on and so forth. And fine for somebody who wants to go and do it professionally, but I do care about the average person's health. And for the average person, or, you know, any person, that's not a game. The absolute metric is what is their personal muscle mass? What

• 53:30Balaji Srinivasan?

  is that? You know, when, when, when 100 people run around a track, maybe one of them wins, but all of them, the other 99 also get a cardiovascular benefit from that. And that's kind of what I'm focused on is not the zero sum aspect of who wins this zero sum competition, where it's like this artificial and constrained environment, but rather the non-zero sum of how do we improve people's health across the population generally? Even if it is true that these guys who are like extreme elite competitors have something to teach us broadly, like, nothing on the field really matters to anybody outside the field beyond the entertainment unless there's some cool discoveries that come out of there and we're curing testicular cancer or we're having treatments for them that make them, you know,

• 54:14Balaji Srinivasan?

  run around like Lance Armstrong after, after his thing. That's, that's kind of where I'm coming from.

• 54:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I think we're more on the same page than you might imagine. The, yeah, what I would say also is, the point I'm making is that the dose makes the poison, right? Paracelsis with so many things. And this includes a volume of exercise. It includes drug intake. And much like we were talking about.

• 54:38Tim Ferriss?

  Technology and looking around corners and seeing what will be obvious or at least widespread, say, five years from now, you can do that with performance enhancement in sports very easily, too. You look at racehorses and then you look at, say, patients with wasting diseases who are using various interventions because it is their, or they view it as their means of last resort. And then you have bodybuilders and then professional athletes and then you have rich people, right? So if you just kind of track that progression, you can spot a lot of things super early. I mean, you can spot modafinil.

• 55:11Balaji Srinivasan?

  That's a great funnel.

• 55:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you can, you can spot modafinil, ProVigil, things like that. 10 years before, it's widely known as a possible performance enhancer for cognition, which I would not recommend people do, by the way. It's still pretty poorly understood.

• 55:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  Honestly, just monitoring that funnel and publishing that funnel on a quarterly basis would be one of the most important newsletters.

• 55:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 55:34Balaji Srinivasan?

  That would be an awesome funnel to.

• 55:35Tim Ferriss?

  I put it into the Four Hour Body. When I wrote it in 2008, 2009, it's still reliable. You can track that stuff. It does require some manual labor, just because our competitive horse trainers aren't just going to sit down with you over a cup of tea the first time you meet and tell you all about their doping regimen.

• 55:53Balaji Srinivasan?

  Right.

• 55:54Tim Ferriss?

  For a lot of, a lot of understandable reasons.

• 55:57Balaji Srinivasan?

  We need a different word, though. But I agree with you on, like, you know, the exact dose of something more is not always better. I agree with all that. The only thing that I'm saying is just, and it seems like a small thing, but it's like, I just don't like to even use words like doping, shadows, cheating, because that is conceding territory to folks that want to pathologize improvement. That's the only thing I'm coming at, is it like, to sort of pull that chip, that's that limiter chip that's in our heads, you know, and remove that chip and basically like, actually, no limits.

• 56:35Tim Ferriss?

  So I think I think it is important to develop an awareness of the words you use, because at least if you understand those words, they sort of form the concepts and the boundaries of your thinking, at least the boundaries of what you deem acceptable and unacceptable, right? So you should be very aware of the language you use. Again, I don't want to dwell too long on this. I will just say that if the opposite of pathologizing use of, just to choose one class, like anabolic androgenic steroids, if the opposite of pathologizing it is freedom in the form of anyone taking however much they want, whenever they want, I don't think that swing to the opposite end of the pendulum is going to be a net positive

• 57:18Tim Ferriss?

  for people. So, so the awareness is important, but as is the due diligence, right? I have used a whole slew of these compounds post surgically to ensure full recovery of my left shoulder, which I had completely reconstructed. And I've talked about this publicly because I'm not ashamed of it. I think it was absolutely strategically medically the right thing to do. I'm not recommending people do that. There are both medical and legal consequences that can follow from all these things. So speak to your GP, speak to your physician, if you want to discuss this kind of thing. But I just want to make it clear that I'm

• 57:59Tim Ferriss?

  not just an observer in this sphere. I do think there are times and places where it makes a lot of sense to use these extremely powerful molecules, but they can be misused with long-term consequences.

• 58:15Balaji Srinivasan?

  Totally. So, two things there. One is, the, the reason that the Soviet example is actually quite good, is they would also kind of jump to, oh, so you're for capitalism? Well, then, everyone can auction everything at all times and everything is always, you know, prices and evil hedge funders will take your house. And the thing is that, all I'm saying is, let's not pathologize this. Let's not put this in a box. Let us actually think, I mean, You don't have to go to the other extreme of roided up, whatever, whatever, you know, the thing that jumps to people's minds. There's an entire infrastructure, an entire continuum that can be built out when we're not just balled up in the corner of Game of Shadows

• 58:57Balaji Srinivasan?

  and cheats and doping and pathology. That's all I'm saying.

• 59:01Tim Ferriss?

  It is a great title, though. It is a great title. Just the fact that you remembered it and have said it so many times. It's a good title. You gotta be, I mean, I know it's not your style of title.

• 59:09Balaji Srinivasan?

  Oh, it's a great title. That's a, yeah, yeah. Well, no, no, that's.

• 59:13Tim Ferriss?

  It's like death tax. It sticks. It sticks in your head, right? It's deliberate.

• 59:17Balaji Srinivasan?

  So that's exactly right. I mean, here, there's actually this amazing app, you know, that people, it came out recently, Dolly 2. Okay.

• 59:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 59:25Balaji Srinivasan?

  And what I love about, have you ever heard about this?

• 59:27Tim Ferriss?

  I have, I have access to.

• 59:28Balaji Srinivasan?

  So you can synthesize, you have access to it. Great. Good. So, and there's also like open source, not open source. There's more public versions that people can mess around. So the thing is, that shows the power of words more to somebody who's of a quantitative bent, more than anything I could say, because you can write three words into Dolly 2 and get an image out from that. And it's, it's effectively like an extremely compact programming language. I'd say like, I don't know, biology, you know, improving musculature. I don't know, something like that. That would be funny. Whatever. Let's see. But point is that if you were to actually write that out in computer code to build some of those images,

• 1:00:12Balaji Srinivasan?

  it would be thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands of lines of code for some of them. But you can literally do it in like three words. And, you know, when people say, oh, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a number, I'm a name. There's actually a wisdom to that because words are like these super high dimensional vectors and you can combine them to these really complicated manipulations in just a few phrases. And what's kind of interesting is that three different technologies are all converging on the power of really, really short phrases. And those are AI, as we just talked about, you know, where you just give a few words and the computer is able to figure out all of this stuff. Crypto, where you have 12 words or 13 or 14 words and it's mnemonic, which stores all of your cryptocurrency.

• 1:00:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  Right? I mean, literally, you could store like $100 million in like those those words, you know, you could store all these possessions. And then obviously, social media, where a few words can be a hashtag or a phrase that starts an entire movement, and that is on every building, and everybody quotes, and so on and so forth. So those three points, by the way, why those three technologies, I know it almost seems trite to say AI, crypto, and social, but those three technologies are, in a sense, cognitive or social technologies in a way that rocket ships and internal combustion engines are not, because those don't interact with humans, these do. You know, these touch humans in different ways. So basically, I used to kind of

• 1:01:37Balaji Srinivasan?

  think that all the word games that they played in academia in the humanities weren't that important, and it just bore me as to why they were doing this. And now I realize it's like insanely important, because a slight tonal shift in a word, that Russell conjugation thing we were talking about, you would get a totally different looking Dolly 2 image based on the tone. Sure. Right? And that makes it concrete, right? Building our own vocabulary and thinking about it consciously from the beginning, sometimes coming up with words. For example, you know, this guy Peter Turchin, okay, who I like some of his work. Do you know him? I do not. Have you heard of him? Nope. So he came up with a term which he calls Cleo dynamics.

• 1:02:20Balaji Srinivasan?

  Cleo dynamics is, Cleo is like the muse of history. And essentially, the concept is he named this term, it's like the science of history. It's like a quantitative form of history. And so he just took that term Cleo, and he put it in front, and it's kind of a nice sound to it, and it's kind of cool. And he just made that word, and he's using that word, and I think it's a great word, right? And what this is similar to, by the way, is if you're an engineer, and you're writing code, what you'll find is, and you probably did this actually when you're writing your book, you'll find that you write A hundred or a thousand or 5,000 lines of code. There's certain concepts, certain nouns and verbs that you keep using. And then you, you know, sometime on line 3,700, you're like, oh,

• 1:03:02Balaji Srinivasan?

  that noun is actually the core data structure of my entire program. And that verb is the core function of the whole thing. It's a little bit like you're writing a book and on chapter three, you're like, wow, that should be like the title of the chapter.

• 1:03:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:17Balaji Srinivasan?

  You know, you, you abstracted out.

• 1:03:18Tim Ferriss?

  That's how a lot of people.

• 1:03:19Balaji Srinivasan?

  Or the book.

• 1:03:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, they come up with a screenplay, right? They come, they come up with the title on page 78, where it somehow emerges as a theme with a label. Let's start with the simple question, which is, what is, what on earth is a network state?

• 1:03:39Balaji Srinivasan?

  We were just talking about words and this is, you know, something which is chosen for this purpose to kind of have several different definitions. So I've got, I've got a definition of it and then I've got like several different ways of talking about it. So here's a definition and then it won't seem informative and then I'll go through it, or at least it'll seem like a mouthful. So a network state is a social network with a moral innovation, a sense of national consciousness, a recognized founder, a capacity for collective action, an in-person level of civility, an integrated cryptocurrency, an archipelago of crowdfunded physical territories, a virtual capital and an on-chain census that proves a large enough population income and real estate footprint to attain a measure of diplomatic recognition.

• 1:04:23Balaji Srinivasan?

  Okay, now you might be like, Jesus, that's like, that's not a sentence. That's a, that's a paragraph. That's a, you know, right? And the thing is that there's tons of things which are very simple to describe or interact with, but very complicated to implement. And, you know, for example, Google has this really simple interface of you type something into it, but to implement Google is actually quite difficult. And in particular, if you asked me to define not what a network state is, but what a nation state is. People will kind of have a tough time doing that. You know, they might say, oh, it's kind of like regions on the map or something like that. It's a country.

• 1:05:07Balaji Srinivasan?

  But when you want to give like a precise definition, it's not like a circular definition. The term nation state, for example, first, nation and state means something different. Nation comes from the root word, same root as like natality. It's like from common birth. And so a nation, that's like a group of people with a common culture, like the Japanese people. And they have a Japanese language and Japanese culture and they're ethnically Japanese and so on and so forth. And then the state is the system of laws and government that that nation sets up to manage its own affairs. And they're as different as, let's say, labor and management in a factory. And the same nation could have very different states on top of it.

• 1:05:52Balaji Srinivasan?

  There's some, you know, a place like France is aware of this because they have had many different kinds of governments and so on on top. But in our day to day language, the nation and the state are conflated. For example, you'll hear the term national security or multinational or national as a synonym for federal, as national meaning like the entire, but they're actually conflating things because really a multinational, it's not like it's operating with the Japanese nation and the Catalonian nation and the Kurdish nation and so on. It's multi-jurisdictional. It's operating in this jurisdiction and that jurisdiction. It's not like, so the word underneath has kind of gotten abused.

• 1:06:37Balaji Srinivasan?

  Similarly, like national security, it's really like state security. It's not really the security of the people. They're sort of abusing a term, right? So there's been this drift and this kind of confusion. And the reason for that is that states want to identify themselves with the nation in the same way that like, you know, management wants to identify itself as being the same as labor and to not have a division between the two. Now, sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad. It's good if management is actually aligned with labor. And economically aligned and so on. It's bad if management is disaligned and in the stereotypical case of like the evil CEO, exec with the golden parachutes, that's a bad case, right? And so in the same way, when people try to make this extremely tight identification

• 1:07:21Balaji Srinivasan?

  between the state and the nation, it's not actually the case. The people can have a totally different government if they so choose, they shrug it off, and that tiny layer of folks that are in the government just gets deprecated and a new government is set up if people pull their pointers away and they set up a new thing. That's what happened, for example, in the former Soviet Union when the Soviet governments fell. Okay. So my point is that these things that we interact with on a daily basis, we don't usually have to go to first principles and define them from scratch, right? You know, if we just talk about the definition of a nation-state, this itself, the reason I want to talk about that for a second is it will be more clear why the nation-state

• 1:08:03Balaji Srinivasan?

  is a complicated thing and why a network state has a multi-clausal definition, because each one of those clauses takes care of a different failure mode. Because there's all these different people who've tried to start new countries, and just like a venture capitalist deal will have this term and that term, it'll have drag-along, it'll have liquidation, it'll have pro-rata rights and so on. Every single term in this contract anticipates some conflict or failure that had happened in the past, and that's why it's a more complicated contract. And the same way, this definition of a network state goes through a ton of different kinds of failures from just putting a flag on an oil platform and trying to call that a country

• 1:08:48Balaji Srinivasan?

  to going and trying to start a war and so on. There's many different ways that people have failed to start new countries, and this definition, I think, is constructed to route around all of them. Okay? So that's why it's a complicated definition. All right. But first... Let me just kind of talk about like the definition of a nation-state. So first, like the nation itself, you know, we just talked about how that is this body of people that's united by common descent, history, culture, or language, and the state is the government. But even that question of, okay, fine, but what is a nation? You can actually drill into it, and all of these thinkers, all these famous thinkers,

• 1:09:28Balaji Srinivasan?

  Rousseau, and Hegel, and Marx, and Mill, all these guys that you read about in school, you may vaguely remember it, all of them are now actually something that an entrepreneur or someone who's very applied would have to think about. Why is that? Because if in the 2010s, we start to ask a question that we had never really asked in the 2000s, and that question was, what is a currency? Okay? In the 2020s, we're going to start asking the question, what is a nation? And it actually becomes something where, you know, the thing we took for granted that we thought of as-

• 1:10:02Tim Ferriss?

  Sorry, apologies, just a quick question. Nation or a state?

• 1:10:05Balaji Srinivasan?

  Nation, first.

• 1:10:06Tim Ferriss?

  What is a nation?

• 1:10:07Balaji Srinivasan?

  What is a nation? Because the nation comes before the state. You could have a nation without a state. For example, the Kurds are a group of people that have a common ethnicity and culture and so on, but they don't actually have a state. The Catalonians, you know, they're in the territory of the Spanish, where the Spanish state governs, but they're a people without a state. And actually, when you think about this, right, like, the United Nations is actually a misnomer. It's more like the selected nations that happen to have their states. There was actually a guy, you know, the guy who's currently running Kazakhstan, and he's like, you know, we can't endorse the principle of self-determination for every nation, because we'd go from 192 in the UN to like 600 nations, because all of these new states would pop

• 1:10:52Balaji Srinivasan?

  up, rather, because there's all of these hundreds of nations around the world that do not have their own state. You know, the thing is, when you start seeing it this way, it's a lens on the map that- Most people just don't think about it's a you're turning a constant into a variable. And that is when we talked about earlier about volatility increasing. The biggest way that you can increase volatility is you turn something that you were at total consensus on. And 100% of people agreed on it's something that only 80 or 70 or 60 or 50% of people agree on. And when you do that, when you take that constant, you turn into a variable. All kinds of assumptions change. If you're a programmer, for example, the difference between operating and assuming that it's just the United States

• 1:11:35Balaji Srinivasan?

  or just in English versus coding your program to work in every country and every language is an enormous change, you know, it can be done, but it's like it's a significant difference. Concretely, why do I say constants are becoming variables? Well, there are PC examples I can point out and there's un-PC examples.

• 1:11:54Tim Ferriss?

  Let's do both.

• 1:11:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  All right, let's do both. Okay, well, constant to genders, variable and genders. Okay, that's a great example of a constant that became a variable where there was something that was simply an assumption in the 2000s that very much turned into a variable and literally all kinds of backends and you know, databases had to get rewritten, turning something that was assumed as a constant into a variable. Another example is the US dollar. Before Bitcoin, no one really thought that that was a variable. And now it is, it's a huge variable. It's something that a significant fraction thinks of every day as something that they can swap in or swap out to at some percentage. And it's no longer, you know, it's no longer the thing that you must reform. It is the thing that you can exit from.

• 1:12:40Balaji Srinivasan?

  And once you kind of start seeing this, that constants are becoming variables, you start seeing it across life. And very roughly speaking, you have, I'll just use this phrasing, all right, but you have the woke and the tech who are both sort of in different ways disaligned with each other, but also aligned with each other in terms of turning all socio-political constants into variables and all economic things into variables. Let me give the tech side because it's easier to talk about. For example, is a meeting, is it in person?

• 1:13:13Balaji Srinivasan?

  Or is it virtual? Now, we have to actually choose, right? Oh, when you're reading that book, are you reading that book physically? Or are you reading the digital copy? Simply, the digital version of everything starts introducing combinatorial complexity, right? Oh, you're talking to somebody? Was it on the phone? Or is it one of these like 10 different apps? Or you're watching the news? Well, it's no longer CBS, ABC, NBC, but it's like whatever number of different things. Okay. Now, there's a good to that. There's, there's alternatives, there's choice, there's all this type of stuff. Obviously, people have said there's a bad, oh, my God, you know, people are living in their own filter bubbles. Really, they're mad that there's more than one filter bubble. But basically, this is great decentralization, great fragmentation. So all these constants are becoming variables on the economic side, and tech is pushing that. And then, on the political side, woke is pushing that.

• 1:13:59Balaji Srinivasan?

  And lots of things that people just sort of took for granted. For example, the police, right? Do you have a society with police? People kind of just thought of that as a constant. And then you have a significant double-digit percentage of the population, less today. But that was actually saying, defund the police, right? Abolish the police. And you have an NYT op-ed that says, yes, we really mean defund the police. That's a big variable. That's a huge, enormous change. That is a, what I call in the book, I call that a moral flipping or moral inversion, where something that was good becomes bad, or bad becomes good. And when you have something like that, you start to actually create different nations.

• 1:14:40Balaji Srinivasan?

  Because you have the fundamental premises of what are good and bad in a population change. And the US is not really a nation-state. Arguably, it never was, but it's not really a nation-state. At a minimum, it's a binational republic, which has the red and blue nations underneath it. And you can see this, there's graphs, like, for example, there's a CGR article from 2017 that I link, where you can actually see on social media that the red and the blue are literally like different clusters. And it pops out to you. You know, they just literally only link to each other. And one way of looking at this that's really unambiguous is if you look at marriage patterns.

• 1:15:24Balaji Srinivasan?

  People typically will say that they will marry, you know, across their race. But you know what? Democrats will only marry Democrats to a higher percentage. And Republicans are tending to only want to marry other Republicans. And that is being growing, right? And the thing is that you iterate that out one generation and what happens? That becomes ethnicity. Ideology becomes biology. If your political party is so important to you that you are not going to marry outside it, then in like one generation, it becomes at a minimum like Protestant Catholic or Sunni Shiite or something like that, Hutter Tutsi, whatever. You know, it becomes something that's actually tribal as opposed to ideological. The ideology changes the biology.

• 1:16:07Balaji Srinivasan?

  So these are things where they're extremely deep questions where you just didn't even have to think of them as variables because you're born into a world where they've been fixed as constants.

• 1:16:19Tim Ferriss?

  How does the network state solve for this or codify it upfront? Or allow for those types of moral flippings?

• 1:16:28Balaji Srinivasan?

  So short answer is that it says that the nation is the network that forms online that is defined by the moral premises they share. And you literally have like a survey, which is the good, bad survey. And sometimes explicit is better than implicit. For example, you have the founder of this community actually has something which is like, I believe, you know, capitalism is good, bad. Law enforcement is good, bad. Entrepreneurship is good, bad. Human improvement is good, bad. Two genders are good, bad, and so on and so forth. You have a set of preferences, right? And some of them are going to be not the extremely hot button issues, but they're going to be things like carbs, good, bad, and so on and so forth. Okay, and I'll come to that, actually.

• 1:17:13Balaji Srinivasan?

  I know it sounds funny, but one of the things about this is, once you define a community on the basis of what they think is good and bad, it's so strong. It's ridiculously strong because they agree on the basic premises. And then they can crowdfund, that you don't have politics in the same way because they don't have internal disagreement, they have alignment. They agree on what the good world should be. And then they can crowdfund things, they can appoint leaders, they are essentially organically aligned for a cause. And that filtering of the internet into these network nations is actually the first step.

• 1:17:56Balaji Srinivasan?

  What it's not, and the reason this, the whole, you know, the definition is all these clauses, to give you some examples of failure modes, right? If you go to YouTube and you look at like how to start a new country or whatever, you know what all the things start with? Like they're kind of joke videos, but they're kind of funny. You know what they all start with? Get some land. And they're like, but all the land is spoken for, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it just immediately, like the first step they take is the wrong step. Why? Because land is the most contentious, zero sum, insanely fought over thing. I mean, you know, like Russia and Japan are fighting over like the corals and like, you know, there's little islands in the Mediterranean, the Turkish

• 1:18:38Balaji Srinivasan?

  and Greek states are fighting over. People fight over land so much over the stupid, you know, Canada and Denmark were fighting over this stupid uninhabited piece of land. Did you know what I'm talking about? Like this, um?

• 1:18:50Tim Ferriss?

  No, it doesn't surprise me, but humans like to fight.

• 1:18:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah, Hans Island. Okay. Here's the thing. Why would they fight over something like Hans Island if you go and look at it? Okay. It's this uninhabited, frozen island in the middle of nowhere. The non-obvious thing, very non-obvious, I think, is that they can see it on a map. In the 1800s, there was this fight in the conflict that was called 5440 or Fight. Are you familiar with this?

• 1:19:17Tim Ferriss?

  Say that one more time. Probably not.

• 1:19:20Balaji Srinivasan?

  5440 or Fight?

• 1:19:23Tim Ferriss?

  No, I was, I was stuck looking up the Falkland Islands because I was thinking about the Falkland Islands in this context as well, the Islas Malvinas. But I don't, I don't know 5440 or Fight.

• 1:19:33Balaji Srinivasan?

  Okay. So 5440 or Fight was basically this mid 1800s conflict over the boundary in the Pacific Northwest. And the thing is, is basically like, the Americans wanted the border with, uh, you know, what we would now call Canada to be at 5440, or they would fight a war. Now, in actuality, it wasn't, I think it turned out to be like the 49th parallel rather than, you know, 5440. But the thing is, think about that. The latitude and longitude, this thing, this map construct that everybody could share, became something that lots of eyes were on, and then they were fighting over it. Now here's, you might say that's like the most obvious thing in the world, why, why, of course they'll fight

• 1:20:15Balaji Srinivasan?

  over a map, they can see a map, etc. But let me complicate that picture.

• 1:20:21Balaji Srinivasan?

  First is, the map was actually not always visible. In pre-1492, much of the world was unmapped. The entire "new world" was not mapped. And maps actually just got better and better. And for a long time, there was like "there be dragons." There were parts of the world that were unmapped. There was what's called terra incognita. And there was this time of mystery. It was the frontier, but it was a frontier to the nth power, because you didn't even know the land existed. And it kind of seems like we'll never actually have that again until we get to space. But I argue it's actually existing again already in a non-obvious way, and that is on the internet. Point is, when people can see something, they will fight over it. The concept of mimesis, right? If they can see it, they'll fight over it. So you can see Hans Island, they fight over it.

• 1:21:06Balaji Srinivasan?

  They see a border, they fight over it. And you can see, for example, the Franco-German border between France and Germany. You know, the border you can't see is the border between Twitter and Facebook. And what do I mean by that? What is the border between Twitter and Facebook? Well, Twitter has like 330 million users. Facebook has 3.6 billion. And for each person, you could define the border as for their time spent on... So let's say that's 3.6 billion Facebook users, 330 million Twitter users. The total is 3.93 billion max. It might be like 3.7, there might be an overlap there, okay? For each person, you can define a 0 to 100% in terms of the time that they would spend on either 100% Twitter or 100% Facebook. The border region would be those people who are 50/50.

• 1:21:51Balaji Srinivasan?

  And that might be a group of 70 million people in the world who spend exactly 50% of their time. And there's people who are farther from the border, who are 30/70. And people who are really far from the border, near the capital, who are 100/0, and vice versa. Okay? What I'm describing there is literally something that you could compute. It's not an abstract thing. If you had access to all of Twitter's dataset and all of Facebook's dataset, you could compute this. Here's the thing: nobody has access to both. So nobody can compute it.

• 1:22:21Balaji Srinivasan?

  Or you can estimate it and so on. But unless Twitter and Facebook got acquired, they wouldn't be able to literally find out who was on the border region. They could do sampling and stuff, but there's a cloud that has descended. These gigantic networks cannot really see their borders that well. They can see themselves, but they can't see what people are doing outside. They have less control, in a sense, and less visibility. And so instead, what they'll fight over are the visible things, like, you know, the use of the network and so on and so forth. But they're going to fight over border regions less. The only way they can fight over a border region is to make their products so attractive that they can pull people from that border region. Now, by the way, lest it be said that these are like trivial things to talk about.

• 1:23:06Balaji Srinivasan?

  Twitter's 330 million people, Facebook's 3.6 billion. Both of those are bigger than France and Germany combined. These are enormous, enormous networks. It's like a huge chunk of humanity. And the fact that we cannot see the border region means that the entire geography of like how humans operate is actually changing. You have to kind of remap how you think about geography because in physical space, for example, two people, you know, they're they're near each other. There's a physical distance metric and so on. In digital space, it's like a bunch of islands that can snap to. Like I can be near you as I am right now and then snap away and be really far. And that applies not just for individuals, but for entire continents.

• 1:23:44Balaji Srinivasan?

  So for example, in the physical world, Russia is basically always going to be adjacent to Japan and Ukraine and Iran and so on. Like Russia, the country doesn't move around that much. I mean, its borders can expand and contract with the Soviet Union, it's bigger when it's when it's the Russian Federation, it's smaller. But it's not like it's suddenly adjacent to Argentina. It's not suddenly adjacent to Mexico. It was involved in the Cuban Missile Crisis at the at the height of its power, but it's not like projecting power all over the world. By contrast, somebody like Vitalik of Ethereum, his network of people, or you know, the Solana network, suddenly this network can be adjacent to another network. Solana

• 1:24:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  can start taking users from Ethereum. It's like this huge island of like 30 million people just surfaced out of the ocean next to Japan and started like pulling people from them.

• 1:24:37Tim Ferriss?

  Gojira. Yes, Gojira. Anyway.

• 1:24:40Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah, exactly. Right. So it's like Atlantis is real, digital Atlantis, this huge island. What the heck? And it can then disappear and vanish. And you can also vanish. Your thing can kind of be like, hey, you know, we want to, we want to cut off those network relations. We want to move our island somewhere else. So the thing is that I'm downloading one of about, I don't know how many, 10, 15 different things that turn constants into variables. One of them is the nation that we take for granted, the single group of people is breaking up into multiple nations that are defined by networks. Another is the currency is breaking up. Okay. A third is the geography is changing. A fourth is

• 1:25:23Balaji Srinivasan?

  the moral principles that underpin society are changing. And so when like all of those things are in flux, you kind of need something to catch it on the other side because otherwise what people will do is able to sort of try to assert that old thing that just doesn't exist anymore. It'll be something that does not acknowledge the reality of the situation. It's like closing the barn door and then expecting to get all the horses back inside when there were forces that were more powerful than that thing that, that spread them all out, that those entropic forces, you have to kind of go to where those horses are and loop them up and maybe have new ranches or whatever there to, to extend the metaphor.

• 1:26:04Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. So what I'd love to do is, and this is just how I like to think about teaching in general. Like if you're teaching someone a golf swing, like you show, you show them once, you do it side by side, then you have them take a couple of free swings and then provide feedback after that. What I'd like to do is just paint a picture or get your help to paint a picture of. Where we might be going and then we can back into digging into some of the nuts and bolts and concepts of the network state. So I'd like to break that into two pieces. So let me, let me just set a framework, if I may. So it could be five years, it could be 10 years or whatever timeframe, but let's just kind of pick a timeframe. Maybe it's five years,

• 1:26:45Tim Ferriss?

  but you can pick. The first is just take a few minutes to paint a picture for where you see America in a handful of years. And again, you can pick the, the distance just so we have an idea. And you have had some predictive accuracy with a number of things over the last handful of podcast conversations. So just to set the stage for like, okay, if your default is kind of do nothing, don't move, this is what you might see coming based on A, B, and C. And then just a few minutes on that. And then after that, painting a picture of if you were taking the pro side of a bet. So let's just say you're talking

• 1:27:28Tim Ferriss?

  to some politician and they're like, ah, Boll, you're full of shit, blah, blah, blah. US is going to be this, this and this, and not much is going to change. And I'm going to bet a million dollars that this network state thing is not going to be a thing. And you said, okay, I'm going to take a million dollars on the other side of the bet. And here's the picture I'm going to paint as a possibility. And because when I hear network state, you know, a lot of things come to mind. I'm listening very carefully. I'm thinking on one hand of like East citizenship in Estonia and how that might be tweaked because most of the people who are getting this East citizenship have no plans to actually reside in Estonia. And then I'm thinking on the other hand of like Christiania, this basically

• 1:28:09Tim Ferriss?

  started as a sort of squatters territory within Copenhagen in Denmark that has its own social structure of sorts, its own economy of sorts. I have a lot of these free floating ideas, but if you could just talk about like, okay, handful of years out, what your vision of the US looks like and what might change. And then if you had to paint a picture of like, If I had to bet on a nation state coming into existence and getting some traction, this is what I could see happening. And then we can back into the rest of it.

• 1:28:42Balaji Srinivasan?

  So let me start with the first part first. This is just a scenario analysis. Don't want to say it's a base case. Let's say I think it's probable. I can't say it's 100%. And there's always, there's things that happen that are reactions to trends you predict, but it's hard to predict exactly what that reaction is. But here it goes. I call it American anarchy, Chinese control, the international intermediate and the recentralized center. Okay, this is my sort of base level worldview for what happens the next five, 10 years. So what is American anarchy? So I actually wrote about this for Barry Weiss's newsletter last year, How We Changed Our Minds in 2021. But the short version is some groups think everything will basically be as it is, the so-called, what Tyler Cohn calls base raiders.

• 1:29:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  They just think everything is going to be the same. Everybody's kind of agitated or paranoid or whatever, and it's just all going to be okay, whatever. And then you've got folks who think that the US is descending into either fascism or communism or something like that, respectively. Essentially, right or left authoritarianism. And they're reacting to that. And they're like, oh, my God, you know, and you're seeing this every single day on social media. People are pushing back against this. And the thing is that while those two groups all share, you know, they've got huge differences. One thing that is true verbally, rhetorically, conceptually, cognitively, is even if, you know, there's left and right vectors that point like this, they're both pointing anti-authority. They're pointing against hierarchy.

• 1:30:10Balaji Srinivasan?

  And so the left might say, we are all equal, and the right might say, you ain't the boss of me. But both of them point towards this kind of concept of, you can't control me, no hierarchy is legitimate, I do not trust authority, and so on and so forth. That is a subtle vector sum on one axis. Even if the left and right cancel, the anti-authoritarian aspect is summing. And if that is the case, then it's the thing that is not conceptualized that we're actually driving towards. The consensus is for anarchy.

• 1:30:44Balaji Srinivasan?

  Because the left and the right can agree that the hierarchy is illegitimate in some way, that the institutions are illegitimate, whether it's institutionally exist, or if it is, you know, it's all the deep state, and so, both of them are tugging on it in a certain way where there's a vector sum towards taking it apart. And the thing about that is, American anarchy is like the ultimate in liberty and equality. Everybody's equal because there's no bosses. Everybody's free because there's no laws or hierarchy, you know? There's an aspect of this that is the ultimate of democracy and the ultimate of capitalism. Everybody's doing whatever they want. And that strain exists in American culture on kind of both sides, you know? There is a deep liberty, you know, kind of thing.

• 1:31:29Balaji Srinivasan?

  And then you've got folks who will, you know, actually say anarchy is good, and they might say it as good as anarcho-communism, or they might say crypto-anarchy, where you're imposing, you know, something like Bitcoin on top of it. Basically, it's like, the physical world is very chaotic, but you have a digital world and digital property rights that are there, right? There's some kind of structure online. But the issue here is, we have sort of seen what the transition to anarchy looks like in many countries around the world over the last couple of decades. There's a book by Barbara Walter called How Civil Wars Start, which, you know, there's a lot of things I disagree with her on, but I actually give her credit for essentially pointing out that many American interventions and other interventions overseas, NATO and,

• 1:32:10Balaji Srinivasan?

  you know, other stuff, over the last few decades, they've been in the intent of spreading democracy, and they've caused anarchy. Like, Mexico is way more chaotic than it was. Ian Grillo has this book called El Narco, where he talks about how Mexico's democratic transition attended this huge burst in the narco-terrorism and violent gangs and so on and so forth. Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, a bunch of these countries have essentially, we've sort of seen them go from reasonably okay to kind of anarchic. And there's a playbook for how that looks. And if you before and aftered, if you just teleported somebody from 2005 or 1995, 97,

• 1:32:53Balaji Srinivasan?

  essentially, to today, you know, you can track it back and be like, well, Oklahoma City happened in 1995, and there's Unabomber. There's always something that you can say was a trend line all the way through, but... Visual capitalist, for example, has a graph of riots and shootings and bombings and stuff like that, and it's up and to the right. It is, it is something where it's like surged in 2020 and it came back down, but it's rising. And it reminds me a lot of crypto, where what happens is it surges and it crashes and then people write it off and they're like, it's over, you know, like that crypto thing is done. But it's not done, it's coming back. And that surge of anarchy in 2020 that came down, yeah, 2021, 2022 is more peaceful than

• 1:33:33Balaji Srinivasan?

  2020, but it's way more anarchic than 2017, which is itself more anarchic than 2012. So, American anarchy is on the rise. And what does that actually look like? There's lots of ways it can play out. I happen to think it's going to be something like maximalist versus woke's in the US. There's lots of different triggers. Okay, this is just a sci-fi scenario right now, I'm just spitballing, but.

• 1:33:54Tim Ferriss?

  And by maximalist, you mean like BTC maximalists or what kind of maximalists?

• 1:33:58Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yes, Bitcoin Maximalism versus woke's.

• 1:34:01Tim Ferriss?

  Are there enough Bitcoin maximalists in the US to constitute a critical mass for that?

• 1:34:07Balaji Srinivasan?

  So, I think Bitcoin maximalism is the most important ideology in the world that people don't know about.

• 1:34:14Balaji Srinivasan?

  Okay, and why do I say that?

• 1:34:16Tim Ferriss?

  I can hear people clapping through the silence. A lot of people listening are going to be getting out of their seats for that one, so please continue.

• 1:34:23Balaji Srinivasan?

  Well, I, the thing is that from the outside, people would think I'm a Bitcoin Maximalism, but it's a log scale. To a truly devout orthodox Bitcoin Maximalism, I'm a status cuck, okay? So, I'm, because I'm fundamentally like, like a pragmatist, basically, right? And.

• 1:34:44Tim Ferriss?

  You're a very middle of the road crypto anarchist. I'm just kidding.

• 1:34:47Balaji Srinivasan?

  Well, but I'm not a crypto, that's the thing is in this book, I'm actually not a crypto.

• 1:34:52Balaji Srinivasan?

  What you're saying is actually, it's extremely important because, all right, there's so much I could say, let me see if I can download it. First is, one of the chapters in the book is centralization, decentralization, recentralization. And the thing is, when you say recentralization, what happens is both the centralized and decentralized guys look at you like you've got four eyes. The centralized guys say, wait a second, we're running America, we're running China, the US establishment exists, CCP exists, why would you want recentralization? We have an operating centralized system here, okay? And the decentralized guys would be like. Why would you want recentralization? You know, we're talking about taking power away from these totally illegitimate establishments with Bitcoin.

• 1:35:37Balaji Srinivasan?

  We're talking about breaking the state and defunding the government and so on. We're giving them, defunding the police, we're defunding everything, right? And, you know, we're talking about breaking these tyrannies and getting away from the surveillance state. Why would you ever want to rebuild something like that, right? So the thing is that recentralization has the smallest constituency right now, but I think it's the right constituency. And the reason is, I believe, the helical theory of history. So the linear theory of history is, we're just progressing, we're just improving, we're getting more equal, we're leveling up, everything's getting better, and so on and so forth. There's something to be said for this. On some axes, on some measures, humans have been improving. Like our knowledge of math, for example, that is like a roughly cumulative chart. It has drops when you have the dark ages and stuff like that. It's not all the way up to it, but it's like up and to the right. Okay.

• 1:36:22Balaji Srinivasan?

  Then you have the cyclical theory of history, which is, and actually, one of the things I talk about in the book is about the left and a right and a libertarian cycle of history. But the right cycle of history is, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times, hard times create strong men, where it's basically like, you know, this Nietzschean band of Spartans builds-

• 1:36:40Tim Ferriss?

  This is the four turning, right?

• 1:36:41Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah, yeah, so this Nietzschean band of Spartans, they go and build a great society, and then these degenerates take it down, and then, you know, we have to like, from the chaos and ashes, rebuild again, and so on, right? What's funny is, the left has their own version of this, which is, the zealous revolutionaries manage to fight the man and overthrow it, and then a Stalin-like figure comes and compromises the revolution, and the new boss is the same as the old boss, and then it comes back to this, right? And then the tech libertarian has a version that's also like this, which is, the startup founder goes and rebels against the bureaucracy, they manage to build an operational thing that is actually much more egalitarian, and it's got a flatter hierarchy, and takes care of all the bureaucracy, and it's actually more competitive.

• 1:37:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  And then what happens is, the bureaucracy encrusts us, and the libertarian founder rebuilds the state. And one of the points they make is, all three of those cycles are the same cycle. Because it's not just the right cycle of being like, strong, and it's not just the left cycle of being zealous, and it's not just the libertarian cycle of having an innovation. You kind of need all of those at the same time to actually go all the way around the cycle to fight that establishment.

• 1:37:49Tim Ferriss?

  So what do you think the US looks like in five years? Just if we could paint a picture?

• 1:37:54Balaji Srinivasan?

  Oh, sure. It's like-

• 1:37:58Balaji Srinivasan?

  BLM and Jan 6th, all the time.

• 1:38:02Tim Ferriss?

  You mean in terms of events or in terms of discussion?

• 1:38:06Balaji Srinivasan?

  In terms of, there will be mobs that are gathered online, there will be, it's like stochastic network warfare between two groups. Is it five years? Might be 10 years. I don't know the exact timeframe. It could happen faster, it could happen slower. But fundamentally, I think the catalyst is, if you look at interest rates and you look at the graph, have you ever looked at like the long-term graph of interest rates?

• 1:38:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I have, actually. But we should put it in the show notes for people.

• 1:38:31Balaji Srinivasan?

  We should put it in the show notes because I just want to find this graph, a long-term chart. So if you go to this graph and you click max.

• 1:38:39Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So this is tradingeconomics.com/united-state/interest-rate.

• 1:38:47Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah. So, United States interest rate, United States Fed funds rate at tradingeconomics.com, right? And you click max on this chart.

• 1:38:53Tim Ferriss?

  I'm looking at max.

• 1:38:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  Okay. And so what do you see? You essentially see something where, over a, you know, 40-year timeframe, you have a trend which is very much down and to the right. Yeah?

• 1:39:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:39:07Balaji Srinivasan?

  And what that is, is it's basically, this is something where, one of the things I write about is, and Dalio has actually also talked about this, there are trends that affect humans that are longer than the cycles that we're intuitively familiar with. For example, you're familiar with the cycle of your breath. That's a few seconds, right? You're familiar with a day. You're familiar with, basically, the seasons of a year. And that's actually what most people are familiar with. Beyond that, maybe the election cycle, you know, in four years, or the longest thing somebody might be familiar with, frankly, are venture capital funds or startups, which are like 10-year cycles. That might be the longest thing where you can run an experiment and see a few reps of it in a five or 10-year

• 1:39:50Balaji Srinivasan?

  timeframe over your life, right? A venture capitalist might see hundreds or thousands of five or 10-year-long experiments that most people don't really track things over that timeframe. And any normal human cannot really track things over 40 or 50 years. You have to kind of dedicate your life to that, right? Same thing that's happening over multiple decades, you really need really good charts and stuff to see what the heck is happening. This graph is one of the best and most important because it's so unambiguous. And what it shows is essentially that the US economy, we have run out of...

• 1:40:23Balaji Srinivasan?

  Juice. The Federal Reserve being able to print money and so on, it just keeps going down on this trend like interest rates. And if you notice, every time they try to jack it up, it has to be pushed back down and kept down for longer and longer and longer. If you're seeing that in that graph.

• 1:40:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:41Balaji Srinivasan?

  And now, the next time, when they're, they're going to be forced, probably, to bring interest rates all the way to the floor, maybe before the 2024 election. And I think you will see very serious inflation as a function of that, because they'll print money, and we'll actually have genuine goods shortages. Because we have all these supply chain things that are hitting. You have China doing its crazy, you know, stuff with the ports and the COVID lockdowns. You have the, do you know the slow steaming regulations?

• 1:41:09Tim Ferriss?

  I do not know the slow steaming regulations.

• 1:41:11Balaji Srinivasan?

  Basically, like, you know, some ESG thing. This is a great example of how like moral, you know, the moral flipping. I'm getting this secondhand, so I might have it wrong, but I believe it is reducing the speed of cargo ships to cut down carbon emissions.

• 1:41:26Tim Ferriss?

  Let me just define two things real quickly. So you mentioned Dalio, just for people who don't know, Ray Dalio, former, let's just call him head principal at Bridgewater Associates, at least at the time that I interviewed him, largest hedge fund in the world, about $175 billion or something like that. ESG, environmental, social, and governance factors. So just, that bleeds into the, what you were just discussing. So please continue.

• 1:41:51Balaji Srinivasan?

  Just to summarize it, basically, we have more money, they're eventually going to need to print again. We have literally fewer goods, where China's cutting off supply, there's sanctions, there's wars like Ukraine, there are COVID lockdowns, there's stuff like slow steaming, which is this huge self-inflicted wound by the ESG thing, where every single container ship in the world has to slow down now. So you have a lot of things that can sum up into something where it gets nonlinear fast. And if that happens, and you do have not just the inflation we have now, but genuine, serious inflation, or even hyperinflation. That is when society comes apart in the US because, I mean,

• 1:42:32Balaji Srinivasan?

  people have been so freaking angry at each other during the 2010s in a relatively booming market. Like in the 2010s, up until 2019, things were like decent economically, but man, were people mad at each other. And when there's like actual genuine scarcity, if that does happen, if physical goods are hard to come by and your inflation's destroyed your currency and so on. And you have a country where people are heavily armed and they're yelling at each other on social media. And you've got 50 governors, like you've got a very potent cocktail for bad things. And we've sort of seen this in lots of other countries that frankly, America was involved in, in, you know, partially destabilizing, like look at Libya or something like that, or Mexico or what have you.

• 1:43:15Balaji Srinivasan?

  But that people just really do believe on some level, quote, "It can't happen here."

• 1:43:21Balaji Srinivasan?

  But I think American anarchy unfortunately is sort of where we're heading. And what exactly does that mean? You know, try and paint a picture. So first of all, in 1861, if you go and look at the map in 1861, you have the Union and you have the Confederates. And it's the ideological and the geographical coincide. You have the North and you have the South. And we take for granted that the victory condition was for the North to just invade the South. Because by invading their capital and burning and so on, they didn't just destroy their supply chain. They also killed their morale and eventually they got the entire South to concede. And they could flip them ideologically and emancipation proclamation, reconstruction. They uninstalled the software in their heads and installed software with new moral premises.

• 1:44:05Balaji Srinivasan?

  Same in World War II, invade Nazi Germany, denazify them, capture the capital. The ideological and geographical coincide, and that's how we think of wars as working. Now, today though, if you go and look at a map of the US and you look at Republican, Democrat, it's not in clean states, it's very fractal. It's at the individual county level, you've got a little red here, a little blue here, purple here. It's extremely grouped together, it's fractal. And so what that means is that in physical space, these two nations are cheek by jowl. But in digital space, as that graph I showed you showed, those two social networks are just clustered apart in digital space. They are separated in digital space. Did I show you that graphic? Did you see it?

• 1:44:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you did. Yeah, I got it. And we'll put this, we'll put this in the show notes for everybody.

• 1:44:58Balaji Srinivasan?

  So when you see that graph, you're like, oh, okay. So in physical space, people are cheek by jowl, but in digital space, they're far apart. And that's where the battlefront is. And you can reconceptualize the last several years as a social war. Because if in a physical war, the goal is to invade territory, in a social war, the goal is to invade minds. And now, when we think about cancellation, deplatforming, hashtags, et cetera, et cetera, the point is that what you're trying to do is get a node on their side to flip from blue to red or red to blue. And how do you do that? Because they're now uttering your hashtag slogan, right? BLM or MAGA or something like that. They're uttering that slogan. That node is flipped. It's like capture the flag. You're seeing from their utterance that they are saying the thing that indicates that

• 1:45:43Balaji Srinivasan?

  they're now on your team. They're raising a flag over their company, et cetera. And you are able to cancel and silence those people who are saying things that are contrary to your view and so on and so forth. It is essentially something where, because you are constrained from using physical violence, since what are you going to do? Invade a cornfield? Invade a city? That doesn't actually work. You're winning digitally. It's digital warfare. Now, when I say constrained from using physical violence, as we've seen, that's actually, we're starting to see stochastic digital violence. You know, the Proud Boys and Antifa and so on punching it out in the street. That's actually an extremely unusual thing in the 90s and 2000s America. You just never saw like left and right wing militias punching it out in the streets.

• 1:46:28Balaji Srinivasan?

  But you see that now. That's actually something which is de rigueur. I don't know, we're on the 100th or 300th. It's like, it's like an event. You wouldn't be like totally shocked that that's happening, that political violence is happening in America, but it is. And it's on a ramp. And so you put all that together and basically what I see is serious inflation, you know, Bitcoin mooning, and then the US government trying to freeze or seize the Bitcoin with something that's similar to Executive Order 6102.

• 1:46:55Tim Ferriss?

  My question for you just quickly on Bitcoin mooning. So we have not yet seen, I don't think, in the charts Bitcoin act.

• 1:47:06Tim Ferriss?

  As an inflation hedge.

• 1:47:08Balaji Srinivasan?

  As an inflation hedge.

• 1:47:09Tim Ferriss?

  And in the same way that, say, gold perhaps has. Why would that be different this time around?

• 1:47:15Balaji Srinivasan?

  So this is not 100%. It's possible that I'm wrong about this.

• 1:47:19Tim Ferriss?

  And I say this as someone who owns quite a bit of Bitcoin.

• 1:47:22Balaji Srinivasan?

  Totally, totally. So here's, here's the fundamentals argument for that, right? As sometimes there's certain things where the correlations only are visible over the very long run. You know, like the interest rate graph we were just talking about. In this case, you know, we haven't seen a long run of Bitcoin. But what we have seen a long run with is gold. And the fundamental thing is Bitcoin's core value proposition is seizure resistance. That's to say, all stocks can be seized by hitting a button. As was done with the truckers, the Canadian truckers, or as was done with the Russian sanctions on 145 million people. Billions, billions, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars, I think, was just frozen because those assets existed

• 1:48:06Balaji Srinivasan?

  on servers that the US establishment had root control over. And I say the US establishment, that's not exactly the US government. There's the government, but there's also the network of people who are loyal to the US establishment. Those are certain tech CEOs, certain newspaper publishers and so on. It's all the folks who are basically supporting the current order.

• 1:48:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  If those folks can hit a key and freeze your assets, you don't really own your assets. In a wartime scenario, as what happened with Russia just now, the assets aren't theirs. Now, outside the US, this has meant that a lot of countries are reexamining whether they want to have so much exposure to things that the US government has root access to. Powell actually had a speech on the dollar's role and competition just a few weeks ago, where he mentioned actually stable coins. You can probably find a better version of this than, you know, but it's basically, "Rapid changes are taking place in the global monetary system that may affect the international role of the dollar.

• 1:49:07Balaji Srinivasan?

  A central bank, digital currency is being examined to help the dollar's international standing." So that is. Not some random person at the Chair of the Federal Reserve mentioning, A, that the dollar's international standing is being called into question, and B, that cryptocurrencies and stablecoins are related to the preservation of that standing. So like, when you zoom out, signal and noise, that's remarkable. Relative to where Bitcoin was in 2010, 10 years later, the Federal Reserve Chair saying the dollar's role in international finance is being reexamined, and cryptocurrencies are part of the mix of policy responses, that actually shows we are, whatever you want to call it, winning, certainly affecting and changing things.

• 1:49:52Balaji Srinivasan?

  So the thing is, only those assets that can't be frozen or seized are your assets. And Bitcoin has a root system that extends way outside the United States to hundreds of millions of people around the world that value it. And that is not the case for your frozen assets on a stock exchange, for your valueless dollars, your chair that you can't move across borders, and so on and so forth. There's a shelling point that has been built up, which is probably going to be Bitcoin. Now, why is it not gold? Well, the thing is, there's either physical gold, or you have, you know, some certificate which has counterparty risk. So if it's a certificate, you're back to square one, where it can be seized.

• 1:50:35Balaji Srinivasan?

  And even with physical gold, Executive Order 6102 showed that a sufficiently motivated central government can defeat gold. We have not yet seen that Bitcoin can be so defeated. It is in question. Executive Order 6102, for those who don't know, is FDR's gold seizure. So the very organized US government at that time was able to seize the gold and then resell it on international markets at a markup. It was just this giant tax on all Americans. And something like that, I think, is quite likely to happen, because it just takes all the rhetoric on abolish billionaires, tax these rich guys, blah, blah, blah, all that type of stuff, which is, people won't care that someone took on risk to invest in Bitcoin

• 1:51:18Balaji Srinivasan?

  or hold Bitcoin during the drawdown. They won't care about any of that. They will care if Bitcoin is a million dollars, and the dollar's inflated, and it's 2027 or 2028, and you need this to fund the US government. I know that sounds crazy, but think about it like this. In 2010, there are people who had seen the Arab Spring, and they'd seen how important social media was abroad. If nevertheless, having seen that, you projected that by 2020 or 2021, the most important political issue in the world would be whether the president could tweet for a time period, that literally one bit flip on a server in Virginia, that you remember the thing we were talking about with memes and what people fight about? 5440 or fight?

• 1:52:00Balaji Srinivasan?

  This account, like the bytes on this server in Virginia, when I say Virginia is probably Amazon's servers there that Twitter is hosted on, the bytes on that server, those little bytes that record what somebody was saying, that's where the fight is. Whether this person can or cannot tweet is literally a matter of like, billions of people around the world wanted to know whether that bit would flip this way or that way. That's insane from the perspective of 2010, even knowing that Twitter and Facebook had done the Arab Spring, that they've caused social revolutions abroad, that they had connected hundreds of millions of people. If you had written that the entire politics of the world would depend on whether the United States president could tweet,

• 1:52:44Balaji Srinivasan?

  it would be an extrapolation. But that's what I'm trying to tell you is I do think that if in the 2010s, social media became what all politics is about, by the end of the 2020s, cryptocurrency becomes what all politics is about. You will not be able to fund your government without it.

• 1:52:59Tim Ferriss?

  All right, let me hop in here. So there are three things that I'd really love to cover and we'll see if we can do it. So the first, just because I don't want to let this go too quickly because I know it's a question that is on a lot of people's minds. So you're painting a picture for Bitcoin appreciating in value based on the difficulty in seizing Bitcoin by a central actor like a government. Many people, right, not your keys, not your crypto, will have their crypto in trusted third parties and will not have cold storage and be going through all the Jason Bourne steps necessary to implement all of that well.

• 1:53:42Tim Ferriss?

  Or they'll do it in a B minus fashion and it'll all be trackable anyway. So if they throw you in a jail cell, you're going to give up your keys, probably. But my- Questions are, so I want to, I do want to make sure we hone in on, if you had to bet on Extremely important question. Yeah, let me just lay out my, my kind of menu, my wish list here. So, and we can, we might tackle it in reverse order, but the first successful network state, what does it look like? Right? Well, that, that I would love to hear your answer to. Then you have Bitcoin maximalism is the most important ideology no one has heard of. I want to double click on that and understand why that's the case. And then coming back to the most recent conversation

• 1:54:22Tim Ferriss?

  we've been having, what would need to change for Bitcoin to actually behave from a pricing perspective as an inflation hedge? Because it has seemed to be up to this point, a risk on asset with instant liquidity in a market that never closes. And when shit goes sideways or people get afraid, there's a sell off. So it doesn't seem to mirror the behavior of say, gold in the perhaps traditional way that some investors view it as an inflation hedge or hedge of other types. And so I'm just wondering if, if a lot of people who participate in crypto are not going to have cold wallets, and therefore not a critical

• 1:55:07Tim Ferriss?

  mass, perhaps enough of a critical mass to move the market. And again, there's a lot of assumptions baked into this question, but what would need to change for Bitcoin to suddenly behave in the way that you are describing? Is it the international devaluing? When I say devalue, I mean more perceptually of non-US governments and central banks and so on, with respect to the US dollar? Even if that happens, I kind of fail to see how that makes the hop. So could you just paint a picture of what needs to happen for, for Bitcoin to behave in the way that Bitcoin holders would like it to behave?

• 1:55:45Balaji Srinivasan?

  The reason I'm not a maximalist is I, many reasons, but one of them is I don't think everything can be reduced to money. I actually think maximalists often, in some ways, sort of how wokes are like the opposite of Nazis, they're both racially obsessed, but they, white people are the best, white people are the worst, and you, but you get a lot of the same things, like separate graduations and all this stuff. Um, maximalists are like the opposite of communists in the sense that they're both economically obsessed, and the communist thinks everything is, uh, should be within the state, and it's the fault of business, and the maximalist is actually often the opposite. And the issue is, why am I not a maximalist? Well, for example, there's many things you can't just buy. Like, if you're in Syria, and you have 100 BTC, what do you actually want to buy?

• 1:56:28Balaji Srinivasan?

  You want to buy peace. You want to buy a walk down the street in a high-trust neighborhood where there aren't bombs flying around.

• 1:56:35Tim Ferriss?

  Balaji, just for people who don't have the definition, could you define what a, what is a Bitcoin Maximalism? What is that ideology or that belief system?

• 1:56:44Balaji Srinivasan?

  There's different definitions, but I would define it as somebody who thinks that any digital asset other than Bitcoin is a sin. And it is, and it's, you know, people have made the comparison of like wokeness to a religion. In my book, I actually talk about it as a doctrine, which is related to a religion but not exactly the same. More than a technicality, the wokes, they actually don't worship God, they worship the state and/or the network. You know, that's to say, they are, they're not about thoughts and prayers, they're about pass a law. And they're not all employed by the state, they're outside of it, and they act through it on a network, right? Maximalists are similar in that they've got the zeal of a monotheist, or of a mono-statist like a communist, but they're a mononumist

• 1:57:28Balaji Srinivasan?

  for a coin. And one of the things that's interesting is, you know, like a communist would be pathologizing profit, and a Christian fundamentalist or religious fundamentalist would pathologize interest. And a maximalist pathologizes digital issuance. So just to kind of click on that, right, like a communist, they think of all profit as exploitative. That boss is obviously screwing somebody because, you know, he did a markup, didn't he? Why couldn't he give it away for free to the community? He's stealing some for himself. There's 50 arguments you can make against this, but the problem is that it's intuitively appealing to people that profit is sort of getting a, you know... Is getting one over on somebody, right? It feels like a scam, right?

• 1:58:11Balaji Srinivasan?

  And communists were able to get hundreds of millions of people to buy into this notion. And it was something where rather than say, look, there's good profit and bad profit and manage this. They just pathologize the whole thing. Interest is similar. Christian fundamentalists, other religious fundamentalists, there's things about usurious interest rates. Are you familiar with this concept, like usury?

• 1:58:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, usury. Yep, I am.

• 1:58:32Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah. So what was the concept is basically like they take the good and true thing. The debt is bad. And I would actually also agree that most Americans are in way more debt than they're supposed to be or should be. And it's like a power tool. They take the valid concept that interest can be abused, is being abused, has been abused. And they turn it into something which says, interest cannot happen. Okay? But if interest cannot happen and interest is banned and because all interest is usury, you break the economy.

• 1:59:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And let me just hop in for a second. So usury, I'm just going to give a definition here. The illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest.

• 1:59:12Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah. And everything is in unreasonably.

• 1:59:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, everything is unreasonably. Right. So if, anyway, we get into what that means. But yes, yeah, exactly.

• 1:59:21Balaji Srinivasan?

  Because any rate of interest is unreasonable in some, under some religions, like, you know, Islamic finance, for example, or very religious Christian, you know, groups were against interest of any kind at all. Then what happens is every single financial model breaks. You cannot figure out, okay, should I allocate money into this building project or this tech? Like, basically, the power user tool goes, goes away. You might say, and I might agree with you, that the average Joe should not be buying all this stuff on credit and debt, and they're getting screwed by it. And I might agree with you on that. But I don't think you can take away the power tool because it just breaks the economy. And then we go to issuance, right? If the communist pathologize profit and the fundamentalist pathologizes interest,

• 2:00:05Balaji Srinivasan?

  the maximalist pathologizes digital issuance. They're okay with the issuance of equity, paper equity.

• 2:00:12Balaji Srinivasan?

  That's to say, you know, you can go and incorporate a company and premine the shares of the company for the founders. That's like an accepted thing to do. Every single company is like that. You know, you're premining the shares. Oh, my God. And the thing is that you get people to buy into it or not, and it's your own efforts. Why do you issue that new currency? Why do you have that stock? Why doesn't everybody just get paid dollars in your company? Why is it not all dollars? Why equity? Equity is a scam, right? Like, you know, that's what, you know, lots of folks on Hacker News will say. They'll say, all startup equity, market is zero, it doesn't, it's not worth anything. Well, the reason is that, again, going back to first principles, the value of an equity or stock is the net present value of, you know, the future dividends that would go

• 2:00:57Balaji Srinivasan?

  to that share. And so, you know, basically, you buy a stock and then you assume that in 10 years or 15 years, Facebook goes public and it pays out dividends and you pay $10 down, you get, you know, $50 in dividends in 15 years. And that's actually, that's a win, right? Now, of course, in practice, for tax reasons, other reasons, companies will do buybacks. And there's lots of ways where that econ 101 or micro econ 101 concept of the dividend has been abused, granting all that. But fundamentally, there is an income stream there. And the reason that you don't just have somebody just give dollars to everybody at a company is that through their efforts, they can go and close sales, they can close deals, you can go close the sale for $10

• 2:01:39Balaji Srinivasan?

  million. That brings in revenue into the company. In theory, that could be divvended out to the shareholders. And therefore, your individual efforts can boost the value of that equity in a way that you cannot really boost the value of the dollar. Your elasticity, the dollar economy is so massive that your individual efforts will be a drop in the bucket relative to a million other people who are doing things, right? So your effort results in results. Effort and results, that's capitalism. That's the thing that Deng Xiaoping's key insight, the reason that China boomed, is he allowed the farmers to keep some of their grain that their effort led to results. So effort leads to results. That's what equity is. It gives you a shot. I know I'm explaining like, super basic things, but honestly, this community has gotten its head into this sort

• 2:02:24Balaji Srinivasan?

  of religious fundamentalist mode.

• 2:02:25Tim Ferriss?

  This community, meaning BTC maximalism.

• 2:02:29Balaji Srinivasan?

  Maximalism, yeah. Because they've gone their head into a religious fundamentalist mode where, and by the way, some of the fault here lies with the SEC as well. Fundamentally, We have not been able to make the analogy between digital equity and paper equity. Why? Because the SEC and these has tried to say, oh, they're all unregistered securities. And so we're going to throw everybody in jail and so on and so forth. So what does that mean? That means that, look, do I think that a digital asset is the same as an equity? No, I think it's like a horseless carriage versus, you know, a horse drawn carriage. At first you make the analogy, but it's also got fundamental differences. You know, with a digital asset, you can issue it to all of your users.

• 2:03:14Balaji Srinivasan?

  They can use it in programs, it's on chain. It does all it slices, it dices, it does tons of things a paper equity does not. But it is similar in one sense, which is that a paper equity is something that incentivizes people to build out a company and a digital asset incentivizes people to build out a network. Now, the problem is that the SEC, you've got a pincer attack of the journalists and the maximalists, basically, okay, the bureaucrats and the maximalists. Because on the one side, you have these guys who are stuck in the past with Orange Groves and Howie, the SEC guys who are trying to pathologize the issuance of digital assets and saying, ah, we're going to go after that. That's like unregulated, you know, issuance of assets. And the crucial thing, by the way, is they're not like going after the bad actors in the space, they're going after, for example, they went after KIC, you know, which is a

• 2:03:59Balaji Srinivasan?

  like a fairly reputable, you know, company. They just randomly targeted them for enforcement. They're just going after, not the bad actors, the actors they can get the maximum headlines on. What that does is it forces web three people to not make the analogy to equity. When they can't make the analogy to equity and they have to like shy away from it with all kinds of stupid word games and so on and so forth, people do get the sense, oh, there's something up here. Hmm, they're not being totally straightforward with me. And then that pushes it, it's like this trampolining. And then the maximalist attack it as, ha, ha, it's actually equity in disguise, like an illegal crowdfunding or whatever. And the thing is, that same maximalist is typically anti-fed, yet pro-SEC, right? They're like the most selective crypto anarchist ever where it's, you know, you're, you're

• 2:04:44Balaji Srinivasan?

  against the Federal Reserve. You know what I'm saying, right? For the, for the discerning crypto anarchist.

• 2:04:51Tim Ferriss?

  I don't often engage in crypto anarchy, but when I do, yeah.

• 2:04:56Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yes. And the thing is, it is fundamentally, in a sense, unprincipled, right? It is basically something where it's like, there is a rationale for it, which is number go up technology. Anything that seems to make the price of Bitcoin goes up is good. And if that means banning every other coins, the only coin people can buy is Bitcoin, well, that's good. Again, though, this is like the communist zero sum mentality, because if the web three crypto economy didn't exist, I don't believe that Bitcoin would be where it is. You need all of this infrastructure around it to build a thing up. I think that's super obvious.

• 2:05:25Tim Ferriss?

  You need more cultural awareness. You need the zeitgeist to shift. Like, all of these, all of these things, or a lot of them, contribute to the rise of Bitcoin, also indirectly.

• 2:05:34Balaji Srinivasan?

  To me, that's insanely obvious, but the thing is that the 21 million, again, there's an aspect of it that zero sum, like the communist, which is one person's gains and another person's loss. If you're getting Bitcoin, I must be losing Bitcoin. One of the ways you see this is, in the Bitcoin community, you don't see that many crowdfunders. You see actually fairly large crowdfunders in Ethereum and so on, right? Now, what does the maximalist community have? I've criticized it, but let me actually say certain things that, it's very complicated, because maximalism has, many of the things that they say are things where I agree with some or all of it.

• 2:06:14Balaji Srinivasan?

  But it reminds me of, it's like somebody who's a progressive, and they would agree with many statements about how you need to have equity and, you know, not discriminate against people and so on. But then they see people saying those things, going and burning down black businesses. And it's like, completely the opposite of what you actually seem to want ideologically, right? This is harming these people that you're claiming to help, right? So the words don't match the actions necessarily. If the words are, in this case, for greater freedom and so on, why are you arguing for like, governments to crack down? Why are you arguing for willing buyer, willing seller to stop? Why are you trying to pathologize

• 2:06:57Balaji Srinivasan?

  capitalism? That doesn't seem to make any sense. And that's because, I think it's gotten, sort of, maximalism got twisted in this ideological knot, which unfortunately is going to be very helpful. That's, that's the paradox. You're like, what? Why? That's an unusual. Here's the thing. I know I'm digressing, but let me, I'll bring it, I'll bring it home. I'll bring it home. Okay.

• 2:07:15Tim Ferriss?

  And then I also want to hear what Bitcoin would need to do, or what would need to happen, or what will happen to make Bitcoin behave in the way that so many holders such as myself would like it to behave.

• 2:07:25Balaji Srinivasan?

  Totally. So the answer is, one of the things I've learned over the last 10 years, 15 years, is the value of irrationality. All the other people in Web 3 are in it for technology, or finance, or something like that. Maximalists are in it for fundamentally political/moral/social/ethical kind of things. I think there's a continuum, whereas I said, some of the words I agree with, but a lot of the actions and behavior I don't. Still, I recognize the zeal. And zeal really, really, really matters. Zeal matters. Because zeal is the difference between selling when it's low, and zeal is the difference between selling never. Zeal is the difference between talking to everybody all the time and making it your

• 2:08:09Balaji Srinivasan?

  life, and just having it be one component of an otherwise healthy life. Zeal means putting it at the top of your identity stack, putting it in your profile, having it be part of your existence. Like, you know, the top of your identity stack, that's really precious space. You know, what you identify yourself as, you might live in Missouri, but you might not identify yourself as a Missourian. You might identify yourself as a Bitcoiner, or as a Christian, or as a Republican, or something. That top identity thing is really important, and that's something that maximalists have. And so what I think is actually going to happen is, the political spectrum will rotate. I think, imagine adding yellow, a splash of yellow, so that red-blue becomes orange versus green. And orange versus green rotates it. And so it's Bitcoin orange versus dollar green. And on the dollar green side

• 2:08:53Balaji Srinivasan?

  are actually quite a few Republicans. A lot of the, you know, security state people, military people, neocons, folks who basically side with, at the end of the day, they will choose the American flag, and they'll choose the US government, and so on. And the other side is Bitcoin orange. And here, actually, lots of Democrats will actually choose this side. And for example, like Jack Dorsey, like Glenn Greenwald, like a lot of the Substackers, like a lot of the tech founders. These are folks who would never fold into Trump. But they also are just fundamentally anti-establishment. They have that rebel DNA, that fundamental rebel DNA.

• 2:09:33Balaji Srinivasan?

  Just like a lot of those Republicans who will side with Dollar Green don't really like the current US government, but fundamentally, it's my country, right or wrong? So it's a rotation of the spectrum. You know, if the normal political spectrum is left versus right, this is like top versus bottom. It's like the authoritarian is Dollar Green and the libertarian is Bitcoin orange. And that rotation is a pretty big shift. You know, I'm not sure what percentage of both parties shift. It might be that, you know, orange is like 60% Republican and 40% Democrat or something. But one of the most underappreciated aspects is many, many non-white people will shift to Bitcoin orange.

• 2:10:15Balaji Srinivasan?

  And the reason is, is that inflation hits African-Americans, Latinos, Asians, and whites all at the same, you know? And if you look, uh, you know, the, the more equities and other assets you hold, in some ways, you're kind of more buffered from this. At least you can have some ups as well as some downs. But inflation is absolutely crushing people of color. And that is something I think, you know, for example, Jack Dorsey, who has Square Cash, that's actually very popular among the African-American community, among other communities. And it has a different user base than your typical like tech app. And in fact, he, he's, you know, gone and, and talked about that, given talks about that and, and tweets about that.

• 2:10:57Balaji Srinivasan?

  And so he's probably seeing this in the numbers that inflation is hitting this group harder. So because of that, the moral legitimacy of the establishment is called into question because they define themselves. If you read again, like something like Barbara Walters' book or something, she imagines that this future civil war or conflict will be between a tolerant, diverse establishment and some like 4chan Nazis. But that's a wash. That's, that's an easy win. That's a 90-10 win, right? That's 95-99-1 or whatever, right? When you rotate it and instead it is... Basically, all pro-freedom people who are Bitcoin orange and against inflation,

• 2:11:40Balaji Srinivasan?

  and probably maybe more people of color than not than on the other side. And then you have, well, it's still our flag, it's still our country, it's still our state. That's now set up for something that's much closer to a 50/50, right? That's actually something where a lot of people would be torn between those two groups. And when it's 50/50, unfortunately, that's when conflict is maximal. So that unfortunately is how I anticipate things to go.

• 2:12:07Tim Ferriss?

  When do you think digital gold will behave like gold, if ever?

• 2:12:11Balaji Srinivasan?

  All right, so now let's talk about that. So the practicalities, these practicalities really matter. Why do they matter? Well, the question of whether Twitter could censor somebody's account and so on was an abstraction because people just assumed that, you know, they wouldn't hit it. You should assume every single thing gets weaponized in crazy ways. We have not yet had total cyber war. We're going to see some crazy things as a function of that. And that's going to push people to truly not your keys, not your coins type stuff. Problem is, right now, yes, a lot of coins are on exchanges. What I think we're going to see is every possible edge case and failure mode will happen, but maximalism is not simply a technological thing.

• 2:12:56Balaji Srinivasan?

  Really, it's mostly a political thing now. So first, what are all the things that will happen? Okay, I think you will see freeze and seizure orders given to centralized exchanges. They may have, however, the moral support from their community to not comply. They may be located in red states where the governor says this is a sanctuary state for crypto. Because if you think about the concept of sanctuary state for immigration, or for abortion, or for gun laws, all of that groundwork has already been laid. One of the things I predict in the book I talk about is, I think that maximalists will introduce a constitutional amendment for no seizures of Bitcoin, just like free speech or, you know, right to bear arms can't seize Bitcoin.

• 2:13:41Balaji Srinivasan?

  Fundamental right. And I actually think you'll probably be able to get that through in a fair number of US states. Maybe not the full constitutional amendment ratification process. Like you may not get like the quorum that's necessary, but I think you'll get that ratified in some states. And then those states that are ratified, it can point to that and say, we ratified it. Therefore, it's a law of our state. Therefore, we're not seizing the Bitcoin and companies could put their servers there. I mean, this is the level that I think things are going to get to. They're going to get really intense. Or they keep them in El Salvador or they keep them, you know, somewhere else. Right. And then the question is, you know, like the Andrew Jackson thing, the court has made its judgment. Let them enforce it. So in 2010, would it have seemed insane to say that billions of people would care about the position of some bytes on a server in Virginia?

• 2:14:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  Where Trump has access to tweet or not, you know, like that would be insane. I'm telling you, people are going to really care where that money is in five or 10 years. They're really going to care, you know, if they can freeze it or not. A few other things that can hit. Quantum computing could hit. It is possible that the Chinese who are working heavily, this is the thing about the book. I talk about there's so many different billiard balls in this theater. It's like a world war, you know, in the sense of there's all these different theaters happening and you could just be absorbed with the American theater. But there's like the Asian theater and there's this theater and there's that theater, you know? The Chinese are working very aggressively on quantum. And there's a scenario, I'm not an expert in quantum computing. I know enough to be dangerous, but there's a scenario where quantum decryption advances fast enough.

• 2:15:11Balaji Srinivasan?

  And quantum encryption isn't there or it's expensive and you can do decryption with these high qubit systems that are in one location. But encryption you can't do outside or something like that. Quantum safe algorithms just don't get distributed in time. I've seen people argue about this. I'm not saying I'm strongly on one side or the other, but that's like a wild card that could come through. That breaks some of the assumptions on the cryptography. There's other attacks that could happen firewall attacks where you try to block the packets that are going through. And then the people pipe them over Starlink or they try to do, you know, port randomization or they try to encrypt the traffic. So it looks like you're saying an email when you're sending a Bitcoin transaction. People could try. Oh my, there's so many things people try. One of the issues is the Bitcoin network itself is not extremely

• 2:15:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  high capacity for on-chain transactions, so it's hard for everybody to use it on-chain all the time, but people can go and hold large amounts of money with one transaction. I am seeing stats which show coins coming off exchanges since, I think, early 2020 or thereabouts. I am seeing those numbers. I think Glassnode has some of those numbers. So you can see, I think, a decline in this. Why? Because, actually, you know one of the funniest things, it's hilarious, it's actually pulling money off of exchanges, you know what it is?

• 2:16:25Balaji Srinivasan?

  DeFi. DeFi, because you can only engage with it through like a decentralized wallet for the most part. I mean, there are centralized exchanges that let you do it, but regulations make it hard. Because of that, people have moved funds, more and more funds locally. There's been a financial incentive to pull funds locally. And that, I mean, incentives ultimately work. So it's a funny thing where DeFi may actually, the thing that lots of maximalists hate, may actually have pulled more funds. Okay, that's a hypothesis.

• 2:16:54Tim Ferriss?

  It'll be the avenging, the unknowing avenging angel for the entire sector is this demonized, decentralized.

• 2:17:04Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, exactly. And sometimes things are like that, you know? I can't prove it, but my strong hunch is people will bring the BTC locally, they will transform it into something like WBTC or renBTC or something like that in a DeFi thing and then do something with it, right? There's several different operations that are like that. I don't have, probably somebody like Dune or Nansen or something could support my hypothesis, shoot me down or confirm it. Anyway, coming back up. So, the thing is, the Bitcoin seizure resistance point, there's many holes in the story, in the sense that there's many things that people can and will press on, from central exchange seizures to lower capacity on the chain and whatnot. But

• 2:17:46Balaji Srinivasan?

  the pushback to that, and this is the kind of an important and subtle thing, I'll try to articulate When you have the state coming after you, you can double down on the network, okay? Meaning internet-type technologies, but also peer-to-peer network of people and so on. And you can do things like Zcash, which encrypts all transactions. You can do digital nomadism. You can move overseas. You can do all these run and escape and exit things. And those can be good. But it's a tactic, and ultimately, you can't just only exit. Sometimes what you're doing is you're exiting with a tactical retreat, and you then get to higher ground. You get to a more secure position, then you can push forward. Like, the Puritans made it all the way to the US and escaped persecution. And then 170 years later, the US, the power they had built up, they were able to invade Europe, you know?

• 2:18:30Balaji Srinivasan?

  Or Google, they escaped this corner, which is search. And they built up their resources there. And then they had billions of dollars. They could invade Microsoft's territory with Google Docs. Sometimes you retreat to a corner, you fight hard enough so that, you know, you're not being invaded yourself. You build a power there, and then you can come back. That's kind of what the maximalists have done, though it's not super conscious necessarily. Maybe some of them are conscious. Fundamentally, their innovation, lots of, everybody else is thinking zero knowledge and all this stuff, you know? And I think that's good. That's the network innovation. The maximalists are actually taking some of the state's playbook and using it. So, the El Salvador thing, various Bitcoin bills. Their innovation is actually on the political level, not technological.

• 2:19:15Balaji Srinivasan?

  They're basically like a, quote, "political party", but really a political network. In this sense, they're like the wokes. The wokes exist really as a network thing. They exist in academia and so on. They're like a ghost that can animate a Democrat sometimes and make him do something.

• 2:19:30Tim Ferriss?

  Sorry, that's good, yeah. I like the image.

• 2:19:34Balaji Srinivasan?

  Like the image, right? And here's why I see that. If you look at Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden, and you look at what they were saying in the 90s or 70s or something, like, they're saying completely different things. These are, in a sense, a politician is like inhabited by a ghost that speaks through them. In fact, a lot of things, this is actually a very powerful model for thinking about a lot of things. When you think about ideologies are like ghosts that occupy a huge number of hosts, and then they like animate them, and their eyes glow a certain color to fight each other. And often, you know, for example, like Russia versus Germany in, you know, the 1940s, we think of that as communism versus Nazism. But now it's like flipped and the Germans are liberals and the Russians are nationalists,

• 2:20:19Balaji Srinivasan?

  but they're still fighting. So the ideology is flipped, but the tribes are like still fighting. And sometimes one tribe picks left tactics, our tribe picks right tactics, and then, you know, it flips and one tribe's picking right tactics, our tribe's picking left tactics. Point is, this concept of like a ghost that's like inhabiting a politician is also happening with maximalism. For example, the guy who's running against JD Vance in Ohio, Josh Mandell, did you see his like tweets on Bitcoin?

• 2:20:46Tim Ferriss?

  I assure you I have not.

• 2:20:49Balaji Srinivasan?

  See, the thing is, this is the kind of stuff I track. And the reason I track it is because it's like-

• 2:20:53Tim Ferriss?

  That's why we're friends. I'm just kidding. That's why I can have you on the podcast and then I can ask you.

• 2:21:00Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah. So he like sort of casually tweeted something which was like, Mandell was like, Ohio must be pro God, pro family and pro Bitcoin. And the thing is that, look, as I said, I think Bitcoin will draw significant support from the working class Democrats because of the inflation thing. I mean, the fundamental thing about that is it doesn't matter what the establishment says, how good their propaganda is, when you're seeing your money crumble underneath. In fact, the more they say it's transitory, the more they say things like, you know, one of the things that's going to be a big message, unfortunately, censorship is going to increase dramatically if inflation happens. Do you know why? Because in Argentina, in other countries

• 2:21:42Balaji Srinivasan?

  where inflation has happened, the government argues that talking about inflation causes it because you're causing people's price expectations to rise. Therefore, you're disloyal if you talk about inflation and you're undercutting the stability of our society. And so therefore they publish public inflation stats that are fake. And then you have to actually have stats outside of Argentina that are real. And so now we are faced with the issue of that's something which the 2000s or whatever you could tut tut at Argentina, banana republic, blah, blah, blah, you know. Once you need shadow stats that can have to sit outside, not Argentina, but outside

• 2:22:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  America, shadow stats on inflation that are powerful enough to resist attempted censorship by the US government. I actually wrote this post last year with the spec on this at 1729.com/ inflation. That actually goes through the whole problem, which is actually quite a non trivial problem because you need censorship resistant hosting, you need to scrape lots of prices, you need to have maybe some instrument that is like an actual, not a stable coin, but a flat coin. You're tracking oranges, you're tracking bread, you're tracking milk, and you've got a coin that remains flat against those things. That's what actually people care about, maintaining their purchasing power, not so much, you know, whether it's a flat versus a dollar that's inflating away. And that post, actually, it integrates, it takes everything that we've been doing in crypto and puts into one thing.

• 2:23:09Balaji Srinivasan?

  It's the, it's the price signals, like all the price feeds is the decentralized hosting because states will try to take it down. It is obviously Bitcoin, but it's also Ethereum with the dApps, blah, blah, blah. It's all, it's crypto oracles, it's everything into one app, which is the inflation app that I think becomes like the new coin market cap. It's like the thing people refresh every single day that mainstreams kind of web three and BTC. I know that sounds like, oh my God, that's terrible, right? And there are bad aspects to it, no question about it. One of the things that I'm talking about with this book is anticipating that level of instability. What do we build on the other side?

• 2:23:47Tim Ferriss?

  Can we actually pause for one second? Just I'm going to share, you've been sharing while we're talking, we've been sharing things in the chat and I'll share one that you might enjoy. And we don't need to spend a lot of time on this, but you'll, you'll probably enjoy it.

• 2:23:59Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 2:24:00Tim Ferriss?

  This is a post I put up in January 2021 and it's a picture of the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe with a $100 trillion note. And in the description, I just say, I had it framed years ago to remind me of how quickly quote unquote, money can change in value. And then went into a discussion of ultra inflation and.

• 2:24:21Tim Ferriss?

  The belief that some people have of that can't happen to reserve currency and on and on and on. So I'll include that in the show notes. What do you think one of the first successful attempts at a network state will look like? And related to that, because you mentioned the carbs good, carbs bad is as one possible decision to be made that is woven into the fabric of a network state, just as an example. And I'm wondering how you preserve, if this is important, sort of rational adaptability in the face of new evidence, right? Because evidence could come out, ah, turns out carbs are good, right? Or whatever it might be.

• 2:24:59Balaji Srinivasan?

  Insanely important.

• 2:25:00Tim Ferriss?

  And so how do you prevent, you know, wild, wild country and some disintegration into, not disintegration, but the formation of a calcified religious state when setting the parameters for a network state? So what is the first, what might a successful network state look like? What do you, what would you wager? And how do you prevent the calcification that I mentioned? But you were going to say something else with respect to the Zimbabwean hundred trillion dollar note.

• 2:25:28Balaji Srinivasan?

  There's people who say, oh, the reserve currency can't fail and so on and so forth. They're actually like the inverse of the maximalist. You're not having a rational argument with them. You're having an argument about faith. And the reason is, one of the chapters or subsections in the book is, I call it God, State, Network. The question is, what is the most powerful force in the world? Is it an almighty god? Is it the US military? Is it the government? Or is it encryption? Or in the past, you might've said capitalism, peer-to-peer networks, and so on. Okay. God, State, Network. The thing is, it's a generalization of religion. Religions worship a god, but a doctrine, if you look at that in the dictionary,

• 2:26:12Balaji Srinivasan?

  it could be a political or religious or other movement. A doctrine, you know, you have as your Leviathan, it could be a god, it could be the state, or it could be a network, right? So communism is not a religion, but it's a doctrine because they worship a state. Maximal is not a religion, but it's a doctrine because they worship a network. Wokeness is sort of like partially state, partially network, where they live on the network, but they animate the state. Communism is actually also partially state, partially network, because they had this international network of communists, but they were primarily state. The mid-century US, for example, was like half God, half state, because it was like, for God and country, we'll fight the godless communists. But it was like mostly state, but with a God, you know, dosing. So you can make hybrids, not just pure forms.

• 2:26:52Balaji Srinivasan?

  But God-state network is actually a really useful lens to start looking at movements. Because the reason that guy is saying to you that the reserve currency can never go away is he worships the US government in a sense, even if he doesn't understand it, he really thinks it can never go away. You know, there's this series of books, or a series of essays, when communism didn't work out, and it was called "The God That Failed." People put religious-level faith into that. You know, people, you've probably heard the term "America's civic religion," you know? Yeah. The Constitution as similar to the Bible. And so, one of the issues is that those people who are really asserting that the reserve currency won't fail are often the ones who kind of suspect on some level that maybe

• 2:27:35Balaji Srinivasan?

  it could, and they just can't imagine a world without that, and they don't want you to undermine their God, and you're kind of a traitor, or you're like unpatriotic, and so on and so forth. And sometimes if you talk to somebody who's very religious, they'll say, "Well, if you didn't believe in God, people just commit all kinds of crimes and so on," right? There's actually, by the way, there's more argument for that than you might think, because if you actually believe in hellfire, then it's like decentralized law enforcement. You know, the law might only catch you at some probability, but if you actually believe in hell, then doing this little crime, even if the law doesn't see you, well, you're going to hell, and that's more of a penalty than the, it's like scalable law enforcement, if you can get people to really believe in it. There's actually like a meta logic to it. But, okay, people who don't believe in God, well, they believe in, they believe in the boys in blue, they believe in the state. Okay, what if you don't believe in either?

• 2:28:20Balaji Srinivasan?

  You're not just an atheist, but you're an a sadist. Then you believe in the network, then you end up in something like maximalism or crypto tribalism. So, the thing is that that dispute, you know, Carl Schmitt wrote this book called Political Theology, and he's like, all these religions, I mean, he himself, you know, was like a Nazi jurist or whatever, right? So, but basically Nazism, Communism, et cetera, these are all, you know, many people have observed, these are all effectively like religions. They're either religions themselves, or they're god replacements. And they animate huge numbers of people to fight as if a religious kind of thing. So therefore, we're not just having like a scientific discussion. It's like a fundamentally like religious discussion. So just something that one should think about when you're talking about this kind of thing.

• 2:29:03Balaji Srinivasan?

  There's some folks who look at it dispassionately. And why would you be able to look at it dispassionately? It's because you may not realize this, you have some island of stability on your own. You're either, you had this great phrase before, you're like a tech-enabled Jason Bourne. And actually, I thought about it after, I'm like, that's much more you than me. I'm not going to be doing all the stunts in the movies in the same way that Tim Ferriss is, right? But the thing is, if you have very high sense of agency, if you're like a CEO, or you're a founder, or you're a president, or you're very driven and so on, then you can kind of find your footing on something. You're not a joiner of a movement. But if you need to have, if you don't feel like that, and most people don't, for lots of good reason, you need to have a movement that kind of supports you in some way,

• 2:29:47Balaji Srinivasan?

  where you can't just create one from scratch. That's actually one of the things I want to help build. So that brings me to your next question. Basically, if it's not these ideologies of conflict, because in an era where everything is cracking, people, like these ideologies, these ghosts are set up to recruit. They're set up to pull you in. And you're like, you know, for example, if you were unfortunate enough to be in Eastern Europe, between 1939 to 1945, all these guys had to choose between like the Nazis and the communists. That is an absolutely horrible choice. You know, the answer is neither. Like, the answer is GTFO. Both those are dead ideologies on the ashy... What are you gonna say?

• 2:30:28Tim Ferriss?

  No, just for people, get the fuck out is what that stands for. Yeah.

• 2:30:32Balaji Srinivasan?

  Exactly. It's true, like those people who were caught in between that vice, nobody ended up well off, right? And so there's this false, it's like the Iran-Iraq war, you know? Who wants to be in the middle of that? That's like Shiite versus Sunni. My answer is neither. I do not want to be involved in this, this false dichotomy, this giant conflict. David Hines had a good thread, which I quote on this, which is like, what political violence is actually like? I'm just gonna quote this at length, it's from like seven years ago, no, sorry, five years ago. He was like, "People have a fantasy of how political violence works. You smite your enemies in a grand and glorious cleansing because of course you're better." But grand and glorious smiting isn't actually how violence works.

• 2:31:15Balaji Srinivasan?

  I'm not sure how to really describe it so people get it, but this is a stupid comparison. But here, imagine that one day Godzilla walks through your town. The next day, he does it again, and he keeps doing it. Some days, he steps on more people than others. That's it. That's all he does, trudging through your town, back and forth. Your town's not your town now. It's a Godzilla trudging zone. That's kind of what it's like. And that is, I mean, if you think about BLM or Giant Riot, it's not like some surgical, you know, kind of thing. It's just like burning things down, blowing things up. It's in the name of some higher cause. That's why people do it, but it's extremely non-targeted. It is simply, you know, that's why friendly fire happens worse.

• 2:31:58Balaji Srinivasan?

  Like, people get blown up, people get blown, immense damage and destruction on both sides. War really, really sucks. And I know that's super obvious to say, but all the wars that, you know, with the exception of the military class that's actually gone overseas and fought, the US like hasn't actually had experience with that in living memory. It's got all these violent video games, you know, I like some of these games and so on, but it's all fantasy type stuff, and it's not like a reality. And once you actually live through that in World War II, or the Korean War, or something, you don't want any more of it, and you go back to like kind of a peace mode. You understand, you understand that things can spiral in a bad way. But having had that go for 70 years, people are now being drawn to these ideologies of

• 2:32:42Balaji Srinivasan?

  conflict. And what is the alternative? Right? So, the thing is, and this is, I think, one of the more important concepts in the book, these abstractions I pulled up. One of the concepts I had there is the one commandment. Okay? So I mentioned God's state and network, and how you can make hybrids of them. So, the network state actually requires a one commandment. So you actually have something that's like, it's not just technology and politics, but something that's similar to faith. Okay? So what do I mean by a one commandment? I mean, you take society at large, and you have one focused moral innovation relative to society at large. And then you have an opt-in startup society.

• 2:33:22Balaji Srinivasan?

  It could literally be you buy some land in rural Pennsylvania or Minnesota. It could start as a digital community that crowdfunds land around the world. Okay, so it could start digitally, it could start physically. I recommend starting digitally for a variety of reasons. But you have this community where you have a moral premise. Let's say, I give several examples, but there's different tiers of how aggressive that moral premise can be. It could be something like cancellation is bad. You know, cancel culture is bad. It could be, so that's something that you could do purely online. How'd you do it purely online? You form a guild where people are there and they're helping each other out in just some general work matters.

• 2:34:02Balaji Srinivasan?

  But if one of them is canceled at one point, which is a rare event, that group all defends them as one. So that's something where there's a moral innovation relative to society at large, where society at large is sort of neutral to negative on cancellation, but isn't actually able to stop it. This group actually says, that is a danger to our life. It's a big enough deal that I'm going to join a society that's like an anti-cancelation society. I'm going to pay some percentage of my income effectively in cancellation insurance by being part of this society. And I have a thousand people and I will work with them on just normal fun stuff. 99% of the time we'll just share each other's content, launch each other's products, advise each other. 1% of the time we'll have to defend each other online and it's like a guild.

• 2:34:45Balaji Srinivasan?

  So that moral innovation, crucially, that group is not saying, change the traffic laws. They're not saying, change everything else. They're just innovating on one focus dimension. It's very similar to a startup, right? A startup is all about focus. One thing you're changing. Let me give a second example of the one commandment. Carbs bad. So this is something, if the first, you would need what I call a network union, like a digital only thing. Carbs bad, you'd need actually some physical component. You need what I call a network archipelago. So you've got like a physical network of spaces. It could be small cul-de-sacs or gyms, things that your community has crowdfunded around the world. And what do you do with the moral premise carbs bad, that moral innovation? Well, you basically implement keto kosher at the border.

• 2:35:29Balaji Srinivasan?

  You have, you introdite it, you take it seriously. And if you really seriously take sugar and carbs bad, and you take that to the nth power, and you have a small town that really thinks sugar is bad, what happens? Well, first of all, It changes everything on the store shelves. Every single grocery store, there's no cookies, there's no candies. There's also no high fructose corn syrup stuff, a lot of the prepared stuff. A lot of that stuff goes away. It changes every restaurant. They can no longer add syrups and things to their food to make it tastier. It changes every meal. So first of all, you basically, that alone is a lot. Changing every single meal and every single grocery store and every restaurant within these borders is a pretty big deal.

• 2:36:11Balaji Srinivasan?

  As I said, keto kosher is a pressing part, which is kosher and changing food. But that's pretty big. You go further. Once you've got this done, probably people lose like 30 pounds coming to the community. So you have photos that show before and after that your moral innovation led to a technological innovation. Progress used to be thought of as moral and technological progress together. For example, the public health innovators in the early 1900s, public sanitation, like sewers. That was both, you know, cleanliness is next to godliness. And it was obviously a technological innovation for all the pipes and stuff. But the will came first and then the way. You know, those things were actually like highly related. Then what happened is those split over the course of the 20th century.

• 2:36:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  And so now you have the tech innovators over here who do startups and stuff. Then you have the moral innovators who are political activists, social entrepreneurs, and so on and so forth. We don't necessarily think of those as the same kind of thing, but actually there's a market for revolutionaries. So on the tech side, it's obvious you have venture capitalists and you have founders. Do you know what it looks like on the political side?

• 2:37:16Tim Ferriss?

  Tell me. Do not.

• 2:37:18Balaji Srinivasan?

  It looks like, you know, activists and philanthropists. So you have activists on right and left, and you have philanthropists on right and left, who are backing these activists. And those activists can be activists, activists, they could be, you know, aspiring young politicians. They could be NGOs. They could be like, you know, various kinds of things, folks who want to foment social change of some kind. Like a technological innovator who sees a problem in the market and wants to build a change here. These people see a problem in the law or in society. And they, they want to take something that was a one and turn it to a zero, something that was bad and turn it good, or vice versa. And they get funding from a philanthropist, or they do it themselves, and it's like bootstrapping, and they try to drive change in society.

• 2:38:01Balaji Srinivasan?

  And when you start thinking of them as like a moral innovator, just like a tech innovator, so what is the ultimate win of a moral innovator? It's like Obama's a community organizer, and then he becomes president. That's like a guy starting a, you know, company in their dorm room and becoming Zuckerberg. And when you see this, you're like, okay, there's actually a term that we use both in the corporate world and in the political world. You know what that term is? It's president. You know, like the president and CEO of a company and the president of a society. So the president of a startup society has aspects that are similar to the technological innovator, but they also have aspects that are similar to the moral innovator. And they started that moral innovation.

• 2:38:41Balaji Srinivasan?

  So I've mentioned two so far, like the cancellation proof culture or the carb-free zone. Now, you take the carb-free zone, you start iterating it, okay? So first, is everybody's dropped 30 pounds? There's no sugar. You're buying more and more territory. People are like, whoa, this is amazing. And crucially, you have border control, right? You have an immigration and application process. People sometimes get mad about this. I'm like, look, if Harvard can do it, if the New York Times can do it, if they can filter aggressively, everybody who steps into Harvard Yard or into the New York Times Company Slack, then you have license to do it. You have complete moral license to be as ruthlessly selective as they are. On the institutions they care about, they're highly, highly, highly, highly selective. So you have moral license to do that. So you have moral license to be selective.

• 2:39:25Balaji Srinivasan?

  Now, by the way, being selective on entrance is different than not letting people exit. It's like you don't let everybody into your house. But if they want to leave your house, of course, you let them leave. So they are different, entrance and exit. So you have selective migration in, and you're looking for people who have written about keto stuff. You mean physical migration or is this digital presence? Yeah, digital and physical. Basically, you don't, they don't just get an account. See, the difference is in the 2000s, people just wanted everybody to sign up online. Social networks were just about quantity, quantity, quantity, quantity. Just get everybody online. That was the right decision at that point. They were just meant to be super viral. The thing is, there's a network effect, but you know what we also have is we have a network defect. When you get to a certain scale of a network, everybody starts fighting with each other

• 2:40:09Balaji Srinivasan?

  because they weren't selected on the basis of aligned moral values. What happens is the network effect normally, the whole Metcalfe's law, n squared, the more people, the more interaction, assumes those interactions are a positive sum. But you have to very carefully engineer a network for that to be the case. Something like Twitter has a global leaderboard, which is inherently zero sum. If you're rising the leaderboard, I'm falling, or vice versa. So that results in coalitional zero-sum behavior, a group of people aligned with each other to get to the top of the leaderboard and knock others down. That means that you have a network defect because people polarize and it's around certain moral beliefs, and the network actually starts becoming less valuable as it increases in scale. Just like a company, you're just hiring more people is not necessarily the optimum strategy. So the network defect means that you, in this era, you don't just want to be super-viral

• 2:40:54Balaji Srinivasan?

  and grow to the moon. You want to grow to the limit of what makes sense for your community to work. And that could be very different for different kinds of one commandments. I'll give several other examples. So the carb-free one, right? If you take that further, so first you've, I always say carb-free, obviously, I should really mean sugar-free. Low carb.

• 2:41:14Tim Ferriss?

  Actually, Balaji, may I pause you for one second? Just to ask a logistics question. So on the physical migration piece, I'm wondering how that would need to be formatted so you wouldn't run afoul of state or federal.

• 2:41:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  Laws.

• 2:41:27Tim Ferriss?

  Exactly, right, discrimination laws. And I would imagine, I mean, if, let's just say it's a small town, you mentioned archipelago, so there could be a distribution of islands that are very small, like private residences or gyms or whatever it might be. But if you want to make it a little larger, such that you could actually have a sizable community, it seems like it would have to be maybe privately owned, such that the town was actually considered a sole residence or something like that.

• 2:41:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  That's right. So there's the entry US, outside US, so on. So there's something called the bona fide private club exemption to those laws, which basically says, if you are a bona fide private club with dues-paying members, then you can have restricted access to the facilities. For example, 204 Fitness basically has dues-paying members and not, right? Harvard. Is very selective about their admissions. New York Times is selective about their admissions. So you have, you have a genuine community online that you start with, that you're selective on admissions and then that community goes and buys land together. Now, might there be lawsuits and stuff like that? It's possible there's lawsuits, but this is a global thing. And just the concept of a selective online community.

• 2:42:40Balaji Srinivasan?

  I mean, every Facebook group is selective. Every single Google Doc where you can add and remove permissions is selective. Every Twitter group DM is selective. Like, that's actually something which is so baked into the culture and society that we sort of take for granted that you have permission control over things. So I do believe that that is coming, that you're going to be able to take those opt-in networks that people can select into online and then materialize them in the physical world. Now, laws are going to be different all over the world and people will, you know, lose their minds in different ways and different aspects of this. Other things you can do, by the way, is you could, if you need to, just literally set quotas. And so you are hyper selective,

• 2:43:22Balaji Srinivasan?

  subject to having X percent of Y group and A percent of Z group and so on and so forth. That's also potentially an approach. And different countries actually do things like that. They just literally set quotas.

• 2:43:32Tim Ferriss?

  Schools do it too, even though they don't like to talk about it.

• 2:43:35Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah, that's right. So quotas are actually not terribly bad necessarily, because at least it sets a numerical target. You have to hit that target and then subject to the target, then you're done. And you've basically shown that you're fine. So, point is, I do believe that if colleges and workplaces and private clubs and so on exist, if Facebook groups and Twitter groups and Signal groups, if selective admission exists of any kind, which it does, then that group should be able to crowdfund territory. And if it can crowdfund territory, then it can erect a border around it. Now, crucially, this is not a typical corporation. It could be literally a co-op. There could be many structures. It could be all coin holders. So it has more legitimacy than just like a company doing it.

• 2:44:18Balaji Srinivasan?

  Okay, so it's like a hybrid where it is really a group of people. It's hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of very highly motivated zealots and activists who believe in this. So it doesn't feel like, oh, it's just like some CEO or whatever doing it on their own. This is why I also wouldn't call myself a libertarian. You know, going back to that thing about, oh, just go and get some land. A lot of people We'll try and be like, oh, I'm going to be the prince of so and so, and I'm going to go and put a flag in some random unclaimed territory like, like Sealand is like this, or there's this spot in Eastern Europe that's like this, or a spot in the Sahara Desert. I'm going to be the prince of this, right? And the fundamental thing that libertarian, so they get, they have half the picture, which is, yes, starting new countries is good, but they don't have the

• 2:45:01Balaji Srinivasan?

  other half, which is the obvious thing, which is, okay, you and what army? Or more specifically, you and what nation? They don't have a nation. They don't have a community. They don't have a people. And they start with these tangible things like land and laws that actually come last in the evolution. You know, it'd be, it's like, is people have lost such track of history. They don't understand the organic formation of communities. And they just skip to the laws and the explicit stuff, as opposed to all the implicit agreement that precedes those laws, of which those laws are simply an encoding of those agreements and acculturations that happened over a long period of time. Right?

• 2:45:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:39Balaji Srinivasan?

  With me so far, right?

• 2:45:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I am. I have another question in a few moments, so I might jump in in a sec, but please continue.

• 2:45:45Balaji Srinivasan?

  Okay, so I've talked about one, a one commandment society, which was like the cancel proof one, just to extend the sugar free one for a second, like keto kosher, sugar free society. So step one is all meals change, all restaurants change, all grocery stores change. On the one hand, that's a big thing. On their hand, it's focused. You're not seeing, again, you're not seeing traffic lights change. You're not seeing 50 other regulations, thousands of regulations that apply. You're not seeing, you're not trying to change building codes. You're not trying to have self-driving cars. You're focused on one thing in that community. Do one thing really well. And that one thing of sugar free, after people lose 30 pounds, then what happens? Maybe then everybody gets equipped with a CGM, continuous glucose monitor,

• 2:46:27Balaji Srinivasan?

  right? Or you start rolling out other quantified self-stuff to the community. That moral innovation unlocks another moral innovation and another, and you start going from one commandment to 1.5, and you start actually building it out. Now, to your point earlier about, how do you know that this isn't like, like some kind of cult? How do you know that it doesn't go wrong? It's checked by exit. Everybody can leave at any time. It's literally got to recruit subscribers. And if you don't like it, you don't subscribe. And if you do like it, you keep your subscription. And if you liked it, but now don't like it, you cancel and you leave. It's society as a service, SaaS, the next SaaS. Except, isn't that good?

• 2:47:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's good. Clever.

• 2:47:06Balaji Srinivasan?

  And that is something where it also does something else, which is it's 100% democracy rather than 51% democracy. 51% democracy is what it sounds like. 51% democracy is 49% dictatorship. 49% of people did not vote for this guy at any time nowadays, and for the last 30 years or something like that, these elections have been very, very close. And they feel rightfully so that they did not get their guy in power. And they do not feel empowered. This is not just in the US, in lots of countries. At any time, on the order of 50% of the country feels the election, you know, they don't agree to the election, right? I'm not, I'm not talking about any particular situation, simply the fact that you just keep getting 51%, 49%,

• 2:47:51Balaji Srinivasan?

  49%, 51%. The alternative to that, where it's like the Fosbury flop, as we talked about, the Fosbury flop of democracy, is 100% democracy, where every single person in this community has agreed to be there and can leave at any time. They have consented. And it's a consensual society. The consent of the governed is actually the upstream thing, of which voting is only this very downstream thing. And voting can be manipulated. Voting in the Soviet Union, you know, they voted in the Soviet Union? You, you went there and you had a ballot, and it had nothing on it if you wanted to vote for the communist. And you could write the name on it if you wanted to vote for a non-communist. And everybody would look at you and be like, you really want to do that, right?

• 2:48:32Balaji Srinivasan?

  The poke is in that quite a few counties in the US, there's also only one party on the ballot. So it's actually not as dissimilar in the sense that the smoke-filled room of the primary is the actual election. And then the public just simply ratifies whoever's at the top of that party's, you know, selection process. So that's the poke, is that laughable communist process that we talked about is not that far away from a primary or like a party selection process that's a real election. And then people just pick their party candidate in the general. Okay, go.

• 2:49:09Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. And go. Here. All right. I'm warmed up. So I am, just to be clear to everybody listening, very deeply interested in this entire conceptualization of the network state, which is why I'm asking all these clarifying questions.

• 2:49:24Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yep.

• 2:49:25Tim Ferriss?

  So you mentioned 100% democracy.

• 2:49:29Tim Ferriss?

  People have to be recruited. If they don't want to be part of the community as a subscribing member, they can leave. Now, one could say, well, even if we will look at the 49% ruled by dictator effect, if we want to call it that, in the United States, people could leave. They could leave. Now, taxation would follow them unless they renounce citizenship and so on and so forth, but they could physically leave. But a lot of those people either don't have the means or the will, or fill in the blank, to relocate. So I'm imagining, you brought up El Salvador earlier. It's like, all right, if someone burns their bridges socially and professionally, moves to El Salvador to be part of a crypto-centric

• 2:50:14Tim Ferriss?

  community, and then they end up, I'm not saying this is the case, but they're like, oh shit, this is turning into the mosquito coast and animal farm all wrapped into one. This is a mess. They could, in theory, leave, but there may be any number of factors. Maybe they married someone and had kids with someone who doesn't want to leave. There are all sorts of attenuating factors that could influence their ability to migrate. So my question, following up on that, is what are some of the most interesting attempts at anything related to network state that you could mention? And the reason I bring it up is,

• 2:50:54Tim Ferriss?

  for a while, I remember in Silicon Valley, there was a lot of talk of seasteading, seasteading, seasteading, seasteading. And people can look this up.

• 2:51:02Balaji Srinivasan?

  I talked about it in the book, yep.

• 2:51:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, right. And certainly, there are experiments being run and have been run for a long time with intentional communities that have, on some level, let's just call them tenets of a doctrine, right? Or agreements or commandments. So where would you point? What are some interesting things that you're seeing that you think are worth mentioning?

• 2:51:25Balaji Srinivasan?

  One important thing I just want to say is that, in the book, I make a distinction. I talk about startup societies and network states. I define a network state as actually one that has diplomatic recognition from an existing sovereign.

• 2:51:41Balaji Srinivasan?

  Which is an unusual definition because you might say, wait a second, why do you care whether Florida or Denmark or the United Nations recognizes you? Why should that matter? You should be able to just do it totally from scratch, right? And the reason that I have that, that's a very high bar for diplomatic recognition. The analogy would be Bitcoin starting as a pure internet phenomenon and then eventually getting listed on Bloomberg and eventually, eventually becoming the sovereign currency of El Salvador. It attained diplomatic recognition, but it took like 10 years. The reason is that that, as I can get into diplomatic recognition is actually very important because it means the existing, it's almost like the crypto fiat exchange. You know, the exchange between crypto and fiat, the ability to be halfway dollars

• 2:52:25Balaji Srinivasan?

  or 95% dollars and 5% crypto, that exchange turns out to be like a critical part of the entire transition to crypto. In the same way, the exchange or the interface between crypto countries and fiat countries is the diplomatic recognition of a network state. Okay, so that portability is one dimension of it. Another dimension is the one you're talking about, which is physical migration. And the thing is that there's like several things I can say. So first is if somebody plans poorly, you can't be their keeper. You know, you can't necessarily look out for them on everything. What you can do is you can try to reduce the cost or the barriers to exit. And one of the things I mentioned when I talked about earlier, I said, American anarchy.

• 2:53:10Balaji Srinivasan?

  On the other side of the world, what's burgeoning is the opposite of that, which I call Chinese control. And the scenario that I think might happen in China is there's this book by Roger Garside called China Coup. And, you know, various guys, George Soros has kind of hinted at this. You know, there's this group, the Cywar group in the US that put out a video about a month ago that's talking about Cywar and has like photos of China and how they're doing Cywar in China. Do you see this video, this ghost video?

• 2:53:37Tim Ferriss?

  No, but I would love a link. We'll put it in the show notes as well.

• 2:53:42Balaji Srinivasan?

  So, short answer is, or short version is, I think it is possible, I can't say 100%, but that some kind of China coup will be attempted against Xi Jinping or the Chinese Communist Party. So whether it's like actually US-backed or not, I don't know, but for Garcia to put out a book like this, for Soros to make the comments he has, for this JSOC to put that video out there, for all the talk about, "Oh, they're not a democracy," and so on, and like all the same energy versus Russia, I think it's quite possible that some kind of China coup will be attempted. I don't think it's going to succeed for a variety of reasons, but that's like the thing that the Chinese system is armored against. And

• 2:54:24Balaji Srinivasan?

  I think that the response to an attempt like that would be an AII, okay, the AII of the Chinese state ripping out any piece of civil society by the roots that possibly collaborated with that. The kinds of consequences of that I couldn't imagine, but it'd be like that it could do cutoffs of physical goods as targeted reverse physical sanctions, you know, like, "Okay, we'll sell you chairs, but not these key screws that you need for certain military things." Like, it'd be viewed as this insanely hostile act. And you might say, "Well, I mean, the US government is smart enough that it won't try that. The US establishes are smart enough to try that." Like, have you noticed nuclear brinkmanship

• 2:55:07Balaji Srinivasan?

  with Russia? Have we seen, you know, some of the stuff? Even if you agree, as I do, that the Ukrainians deserve freedom and so on, I don't think that some of the stuff where it's like being very casual about nuclear war is smart. And I also think that the fact that they're still poking on things like Taiwan and so on while they're in the middle of the Russo-Ukrainian war, you know, there's various statements are being put out on Taiwan. I think Biden put out some statement and pulled it back and put out some statement. This does not show a degree of caution on this topic. My point is, I think while American anarchy is happening, or before it gets underway, Chinese control could follow a Chinese crackdown. And what does that happen? What does that mean? It

• 2:55:49Balaji Srinivasan?

  means Chinese people can't leave the country. It's already happening where passport issuance is like down 95% over there. They're using the QR codes that they set up for the COVID stuff, for internal lockdowns. There's already the pre-existing Huqiao system of internal passports. They know that lots of Hong Kong people want to leave, but they don't want people to leave with their money.

• 2:56:12Balaji Srinivasan?

  And a lot of Chinese people now want to leave with their money. Okay, it's called Runzu, R U N X U E, or Run philosophy. It's like, basically, there's three responses, you know, for the upper-middle-class, middle-class, you know, Chinese liberal, and those are rat race, lie flat, get out, or Runzu. So Runzu, the problem is, there's reactivity on everything, and the more popular that becomes, the more it's going to be portrayed as some combination unpatriotic, some combination trying to take your money and leave after all China has done. So they're cutting off the exits in their own way, to your point. So Chinese control is on their side of the world. And you know what they're going to say is they're going to say, "Look, we just stopped, you know, this American-style anarchy," and they're going to export that surveillance

• 2:56:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  state to lots of countries, and they'll say, "Look, this is just total stability, and you will never have anarchy, and you will just be able to rule forever, because our A I I will pick up every possible form of organization against you, any possible form of dissent." And that's just total order, without any feedback signal whatsoever on power. Whereas anarchy is the total opposite of that. So you're going to get, I feel, this world that I'm seeing things tracking towards that, where you have just total disorder over here, which will be justified by saying it's not the Chinese all-seeing eye. And you'll have the Chinese all-seeing eye justified by the fact that it's not the total disorder here. And it's like the Nazism versus Communism thing, except it is total decentralization versus total centralization.

• 2:57:37Balaji Srinivasan?

  And the alternative to that is many different examples of recentralization. What I mean by that is, you know, you said, "Pick El Salvador, pick another country." The thing is that if you didn't like GM, and you didn't like Ford, and you didn't like Chrysler, well, you could found Tesla. You could found something that actually, I mean, it's very hard, you know, Elon's the first car that basically gets to be Elon, maybe, but it was possible to do so. And if, you know, with software, if you don't like some software company, you didn't like Google Docs, people could found Notion. Even a big company, you could tackle like this. So the thing is that that ability to start that startup society, even if it doesn't have the full diplomatic recognition of a network state... Is how those options actually increase because you mentioned, oh, if you don't like

• 2:58:22Balaji Srinivasan?

  the current options, go to El Salvador, but El Salvador is fine.

• 2:58:26Tim Ferriss?

  Just to be clear.

• 2:58:27Balaji Srinivasan?

  I'm proud of them.

• 2:58:28Tim Ferriss?

  No, I didn't say that. And I'm fine with El Salvador. I don't have personal issues with El Salvador. I'm just saying that most of the experiments we're talking about.

• 2:58:35Balaji Srinivasan?

  What I mean is of the menu.

• 2:58:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the menu, I'm just like, it seems like the crypto tail is wagging the dog a bit in the same way that the tax tail wags the dog. When people are like, yeah, it's great in this place. And I'm looking at them in Zoom and there are like tires on fire in the street behind them with razor wire around their compound. And I'm just saying, what the fuck are you doing, man? Like to save whatever you're saving. Anyway, that's all I'm saying.

• 2:58:59Balaji Srinivasan?

  Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the thing is also, one of the big things about what I'm talking about here is it's absolutely morality first and money second. And it's, you know, the saying missionary over mercenary. So there's this great interview from several years ago with Charlie Rose had an interview with this historian called Paul Johnson. And he essentially points out that the for profit colonies in America mostly fail, but it's the religious ones that have the cohesion and commitment to make it through the brutal winters. Just like the religious maximalist community has the cohesion and commitment to make it through the brutal crypto winters. And, you know, bring it back around to what we were talking about earlier. And just like the situation that we're potentially entering

• 2:59:43Balaji Srinivasan?

  into the US, it could be, you know, like the next great depression, it could be the great stagnation, or the great stagflation, or the great inflation. It could be not something that bounces back in a year or two years like our previous experience, but something where the government cannot print money and cannot fix it. And it has to actually be fixed with genuine innovation and not top down control and silencing of all dissent, and not anarchy and shooting people, but actually innovation that is, that could be, by the way, very non consensus. The reason, by the way, I bring up something like carb free, right? Or sugar free, rather, is

• 3:00:21Balaji Srinivasan?

  If you think about great startups, some of them are very ambitious sounding like SpaceX, and others sound incredibly stupid and trivial like 140 characters. But now, today, both Twitter and SpaceX are big companies. And a lot of startup societies will be similar. They'll either sound totally trivial, like carb-free, or insanely ambitious, like FDA-free. And the thing is, you don't necessarily know which startup societies are going to work. You just have to run the experiment and allow people to set them up, society as a service, and allow people to opt into them. And that's what a lot of this book is about.

• 3:00:58Tim Ferriss?

  So I want to take one quick sidebar, and then we're going to come back to the main thread. In the very beginning of this conversation, I asked you to comment on the current state of the crypto market and the India sphere, and we did not get to the India sphere. Would you mind just taking a few minutes, not very many, but just a few minutes to share any and all thoughts, first defining what India sphere means, and then thoughts on the India sphere?

• 3:01:27Balaji Srinivasan?

  Here's what I'll say about India. I will just give a single, a couple of links, because I can talk about it verbally. But Sanjeev Sanyal actually put out an economic survey of India. Here, I'm just going to link that here, about three or four months ago. And it just has tons of maps. And those maps show like nighttime luminosity, the national highway network, you know, the airports, the water connections. The issue is, like, this is obvious if you're on the ground, but it is the most obvious

• 3:02:07Balaji Srinivasan?

  for somebody who knows India enough to have visited, but is not there every single day. Because if you're there every single day, it's kind of gradual. It's an improvement, but it's gradual, but you don't necessarily appreciate it. And if you've never come and you have nothing to benchmark it against, you don't see the changes. But for the intermittent visitor, it's astonishing what's happened. And what's really good about this set of graphs is it shows it for the whole country, right? So lighting, highway build-outs, airports, basic infrastructure has been dramatically improved over the last 10 years.

• 3:02:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, tap water, potable water.

• 3:02:42Balaji Srinivasan?

  Portable water, exactly. Like, so the thing is, India is becoming like, and, you know, 4G and all the internet stuff, if you look at this whole thread, the second reference I point you to is, is a article called "The Internet Country" by Tiger Feathers, Substack.com, okay? And that is a ton of graphs on just the digital story, and it's showing the build-out of literally like a billion people now, it's like 800 million, something like that, got onto some of the fastest, cheapest mobile internet in the world over the last five years. And so the H1B visa doesn't even matter anymore, what matters is the TCP IP visa. The labor shock this represents, the culture shock this represents, most people haven't gamed this out, but the majority of English speakers on the internet are, or soon will

• 3:03:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  be, Indian. English-speaking culture is going to be influenced by like Indian culture, it's just like this total thing that's not on people's radars, they have not priced this in. Most of your followers will probably be Indian by like 20, 30, or something like that. Most of your upvotes, most of your comments and stuff, a very large fraction already are, but it's like two giant tanks of water that are now connected by the internet and that are like diffusing into each other. The other thing is also during that process, for many years, Indians had, you know, like, like my parents' generation, because they grew up in India, they came over with accents and so and so, and they had portable technical skills in engineering or medicine or something like that. But they weren't really culturally

• 3:04:11Balaji Srinivasan?

  fluent, you know, they knew how to operate in India, but not really in the US, or in the globe. The internet dramatically changes that because all those kids in India understand Instagram memes, and TikTok, and all that stuff. They are internet-native, they've learned it as a second language, and maybe if they speak, they might have an accent, but even that, it's like, you know, you're getting AI audio generation and so on and so forth. So, the cultural fluency...

• 3:04:42Balaji Srinivasan?

  Is there in a way that was absolutely not there. So they won't be like foreigners, you know, you won't know that they're Indian in a thread. That's a huge difference. That many people has not been culturally acclimatized that quickly ever before. So that's like on the internet component. I don't think people have thought about. And then the government component, you know, look, there's, there's pros and cons of any government. And in many ways, I think India's government is like two steps forward, one step back. There's a saying, India disappoints both the, uh, India disappoints both the optimists and the pessimists. But two things about that. That's a good one, right? It's not mine, but somebody came up. It's pretty good. So this link that I just pasted in, if you just go and you read the India budget government document.

• 3:05:27Tim Ferriss?

  And just to pause to tell people that I'll put all of these links in the show notes at tim.blog/podcast. So you'll be able to find all these very easily. Please, please continue.

• 3:05:36Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yes. So it's like, it's got digital universities, drone farms, telemedicine, open source. It is an extremely tech savvy, future forward thing, right? Like it's insane how, how smart it is. Don't take my word for it. Read it yourself. And then as contrast, go and read Mike Solana's article. Mike Solana is great guy, smart guy from Founders Fund. It's got a subset called Pirate Wires. His article he wrote called trillion dollar paint job from last year, August 11, 2021.

• 3:06:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. PirateWires.com.

• 3:06:15Balaji Srinivasan?

  Uh, yeah, PirateWires.com. And the article is called trillion dollar paint job. And what he pointed out about six months before that set of tweets about nine months ago, is this gigantic multi-billion dollar budget is, what are they building? The only thing they were doing was banning cryptocurrency. He was like, the one exciting thing in the entire bill were the charging stations for electric vehicles. He's like, charging stations for electric vehicles account for a tiny fraction of expenditure and appear in almost every recap of the bill. Why such relentless focus from the media on so minor an element of our bold new infrastructure strategy? I think we're all desperate for a sense of forward motion. The charging stations at least represent something new, a physical change that alters the world for the better. Beyond that, it's not at all clear what our

• 3:06:59Balaji Srinivasan?

  political leaders are trying to build. I do however, have a sense of what they're trying to destroy. Bingo, right? Essentially, like, the East Coast establishment, the US establishment, basically hates these tech interlopers, and rather than figure out how to have everybody take a cut, or whatever, and level up together, has decided to try to fight it, which is now resulting in, I think, going to be a bad... Like, some of it actually worked, where they managed to woke-ify and capture Google and these big companies, which is really bad, because it means that they are going to be turned into surveillance machines already. Have you seen the Google AI thing that's trying to say landlord is bad language in your Google Doc? Did you see that?

• 3:07:39Tim Ferriss?

  No, but happy to link to it for people.

• 3:07:43Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yeah, yeah, no, so it's like, Google Docs landlord suggest thing. I mean, the thing is, look, it's Google, right? There's this apocryphal story, which I believe is not actually true, but it's like, the reason that Spanish people speak Spanish with a lisp is because supposedly the king spoke with a lisp and wanted people to do that, right? That mythical story, Google has literally billions of users, it has, if it decides to use it, the power to shape language and speech and thought with its suggests, with its autocompletes, with things like this. So, that power in centralized hands is an insane thing. It's almost, almost impossible to... Because undetectable, you kind of, you

• 3:08:26Balaji Srinivasan?

  think of yourself as paranoid. This is an explicit example where the suggest is explicit, right?

• 3:08:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the sanitizing of cognition, yeah. It's wild.

• 3:08:34Balaji Srinivasan?

  So that will be a way that the social war is going to be fought, where Google and things like that are weaponized against the population, which is why we need these Web 3 and other services, so that you can get off of Google and get off of Amazon and get off of these woke-ified things. Anyway, coming back up, rather than trying to work with tech, they wanted to fight it, kill it, woke-ify it, antitrust it, capture it. They've been partially successful in that, but what they've also done is they have turned the latest generation of tech founders very much against the US establishment. All the guys who are running companies that are worth less than 100 billion are basically pro Bitcoin and less aligned with the US carbon. I should say all, but let's say, I don't know, if it's...

• 3:09:14Balaji Srinivasan?

  If they managed to capture Google, they did so at the cost of splitting, alienating, and polarizing a generation of up and coming founders, not just in the US, but very importantly, outside. Tech has been pushed outside of the US, and the US is no longer the majority of tech. Most tech actually happens outside the US. So the whole concept that's very America-centric, that it's all in Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is, have you heard the term metonym?

• 3:09:42Tim Ferriss?

  Nope, but I guess it's like an antonym or a synonym, but it's a metonym. So it's a word that, what, is like an umbrella term that captures a bunch of things?

• 3:09:52Balaji Srinivasan?

  So a metonym is when you use a place to stand in for a concept. So like, you know, Hollywood is movies and Silicon Valley is tech and so on. And I had this tweet, which was, "Deprecate metonyms via decentralizing technology." So finance is not Wall Street, advertising is not Madison Avenue, film is not Hollywood, education is not the Ivy League, space isn't NASA, cars are not Detroit, and technology is not Silicon Valley, as obsolete as Broadway. And the thing is, you can already see some of those things happening, like cars are not Detroit, it's Tesla, and space isn't NASA, it's SpaceX, and, you know, film, it's starting to move away from Hollywood as well. Advertising's already not Madison Avenue, or it's arguably moved away quite a bit. But once you see that, you're

• 3:10:33Balaji Srinivasan?

  like, and you apply the to all of them, you're like, oh, all of those things were like points in the US which dominated certain industries, and all of them are getting decentralized by technology at the same time. Anyway, coming back up. So with the India thing, A, there's Sanjeev Seni's survey, Economic Survey of India, which shows all the maps. B, there's Tiger Feathers, which surveys on the digital buildup. C, there is this link to the Indian government's spending bill. It's not just spending bill, it's basically their, is their budget, basically. And then D, the comparison of that to the American budget of, I think, the same fiscal year or plus minus one. And an enormous gap, absolutely enormous gap where technology is seen as a tool to make

• 3:11:16Balaji Srinivasan?

  India and Indians more prosperous across the political spectrum. And it's basically like seen as opposite in the US with, I understand why, it's because the rise of technology correlated with a relative fall of American living standards globally relative to the rest. But it didn't have to be like that, in my view, right? With better leadership, it didn't have to be like that. So that's a quick summary on India. Hopefully, that's enough data.

• 3:11:41Tim Ferriss?

  That's great. That's great. And we will link to all these things in the show notes. So Balaji, at Balaji S on Twitter.

• 3:11:47Balaji Srinivasan?

  Oh, wait, wait. Can I say one more thing? I'm gonna say one more thing.

• 3:11:50Tim Ferriss?

  You can. Well, you absolutely have to also mention where people can find the network state, how to start a new country. Yes, you can say another thing.

• 3:12:00Balaji Srinivasan?

  I will say one thing, and I'll say that last thing. So the one thing I was gonna say is going back to that God state network framework, I'm bullish on Indians and modestly bullish on India. That is to say, the Indian state, I'm like very modestly in favor or very modestly bullish on. But the Indian network of the global diasporic Indians connected to certainly many Indians within the Indian territory, but not necessarily the Indian government per se, or Indian establishment even, the Indian network I'm very bullish on. And actually, one of the dark horse projections I have in the book for the future is that by 1945, the 20th century was the USA versus the USSR,

• 3:12:45Balaji Srinivasan?

  right? The Americans versus the Russians, you know, the two guys who were on the edges, who everybody could see growing. They had huge populations in the 1800s, but they were kind of on the periphery. Europe just slugged it out between themselves. And eventually, like in that title fight, you know, the, it was, it was the Americans versus Russians. I kind of think that by 2040 or 2050, maybe sooner, maybe later, that there's a chance that this century is the Chinese state versus the India network. So the centralized Sinic state versus the dharmic decentralized global network. I kind of think that's how things line up. And the real sort of, you have to sort of squint to see this as an edge case, but in the same way, the UK sort

• 3:13:28Balaji Srinivasan?

  of handed the torch to the US, which was an English speaking kind of thing. In some ways, the US, I think, may hand the torch because the global English speaking internet is going to become India. And insofar as the US as a country doesn't exist and you have all these startup societies and so on, that decentralized English-speaking internet will have very strong Indian representation around the world, and the opposite of it will be like the Chinese control. Now, I know that's like very speculative and I'm connecting a bunch of dots and so on, and that's not at all like, one very important thing here is, it's probably will come out on the 4th of July, none of what I'm saying or I'm thinking in the book, I would not call any of it like anti-American, any more than I'd say than Washington was

• 3:14:12Balaji Srinivasan?

  anti-British, or that Herzl, or Ben Gurion was anti-British, or Lee Kuan Yew was anti-British, or even the Indian independence movement was anti-British. They were critical of the British for a time, but afterwards, after a little bit of distance, America, India, Israel, Singapore, all have good relations with Britain. They're basically post-British, they weren't anti-British. And the key question is, rather than be like pro-American, anti-American, if this won't last, if this current Pax Americana won't last, what does post-American look like, without any hostility really towards the old thing, indeed with gratitude towards everything it contributed, but recognizing that not everything can endure. And people

• 3:14:55Balaji Srinivasan?

  realize that the currency won't endure, but perhaps the state won't endure either, and we need to think about positive new models for the future that do not involve condemning the past. I mean, any more than we, we don't condemn Britain all the time, we're basically grateful towards it, or positively inclined towards it, but we've, we're moving along another axis. So rather than be pro or anti-British, rather than define it as post-British, rather than pro or anti-American, what does post-American look like? And prepare for that. And you know what? Maybe I'm completely wrong, maybe all the base raters are right, maybe everything just continues, and so on. But if you think that we might want to actually try to build an alternative, in the same way the founder or an activist doesn't simply let things happen, but takes things into their own hands, I think I've got a model for that, a positive some model, putting it out there. That's at thenetworkstate.com,

• 3:15:40Balaji Srinivasan?

  you can also read it at 1729.com, and that's like an online book and so on. So by the time this podcast goes out, you'll, that'll probably be live.

• 3:15:48Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So one more time, what were the URLs, just so people catch them?

• 3:15:52Balaji Srinivasan?

  So go to 1729.com, and you can read the book online, download the PDF, and you can click, and if you want to buy it on Amazon. So it's free to read online, and you can check it out. Oh, and also subscribe because we're going to be releasing more chapters and so on. I know that normally, an app is supposed to be dynamic and a book is supposed to be static. But I think of this as a book app because you put something out into the world and people are going to react and there's going to be incomplete things or things I want to say differently and so on and so forth. And so I'll keep editing it and I'll keep setting out new stuff. So subscribe and get all that for free if any of this interested you.

• 3:16:32Tim Ferriss?

  1729.com. And we talked about the origin story of that separately, so we won't get into it right now. But

• 3:16:38Balaji Srinivasan?

  Yes, it's basically the publisher of the book. Yes.

• 3:16:42Tim Ferriss?

  Balaji, very nice to see you again. And for those who aren't watching the video, you know, these are two contrasts in style. You've got sort of my floral pattern full of all sorts of embellishments that I need to keep my mood stabilized to get even emoticon of anything done. And then you've got Balaji in his, in his Spartan, what looks like

• 3:17:03Balaji Srinivasan?

  Tech

• 3:17:03Tim Ferriss?

  War, war, tech war room preparing for the future with no, no golden fetters, no draws.

• 3:17:11Balaji Srinivasan?

  I, I do have, I have a plant here. It's just out of frame. And I have, it's like, you know, the Canadian girlfriend, right? My plant that's just out of frame, right? And do you know the reference?

• 3:17:24Tim Ferriss?

  I don't. I like it, even though I don't understand it.

• 3:17:27Balaji Srinivasan?

  It's basically like, oh, I have a girlfriend, but she's in Canada.

• 3:17:31Tim Ferriss?

  That's, that's Balaji's plant, which is a cactus that needs water once every 70 years, just as a symbol of resilience.

• 3:17:40Balaji Srinivasan?

  That's actually right. That's right. That's right. It is highly resilient. And I have my whiteboard on the back for my math. So that's funny.

• 3:17:47Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, man. Well, Balaji, I really appreciate you taking the time. I'm excited for you. I'm excited for people to read The Network State: How to Start a New Country. You can find it on 1729.com. Check it out. Balaji, of course, you can find on Twitter. He is insightful and prolific @BalajiS. We will link to everything we mentioned in the show notes at tim.blog/podcast. And thank you, Balaji. Always fun to see you.

• 3:18:15Balaji Srinivasan?

  Thank you, sir.

• 3:18:15Tim Ferriss?

  I appreciate the time.

• 3:18:16Balaji Srinivasan?

  All right.

• 3:18:16Tim Ferriss?

  And to, and to everybody listening, be safe, be kind, and thanks for tuning in.

• 3:18:23Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half-page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered, or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.

• 3:19:06Tim Ferriss?

  And these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday. Type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday. Drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Shopify is one of my favorite companies out there, one of my favorite platforms ever. And let's get into it. Shopify is a platform, as I mentioned, designed for anyone to sell anything, anywhere, giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved for big business. So what does that mean?

• 3:19:50Tim Ferriss?

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• 3:20:32Tim Ferriss?

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• 3:21:17Tim Ferriss?

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• 3:22:03Tim Ferriss?

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• 3:22:15Tim Ferriss?

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• 3:22:59Tim Ferriss?

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• 3:23:43Tim Ferriss?

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