“My Autism Keeps Upsetting People” - Vittorio Angelone

Vittorio Angelone is an Irish comedian, writer, and podcaster. Is it autism, or something else? Humor can come from a lot of places: being Irish, being an only child, a little neurodivergence, or all of the above. And if you happen to be all three, you might have the perfect recipe for a comedian. Expect to learn what happened to Vittorio when he visited Nashville, the biggest difference between being an only child and being autistic, why being uncool is the worst kind of cancellation, why it’s so hard to communicate authentically, why goofy male podcasts appeal to women, if there is any hope for AI and much more… - Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get up to $350 off the Eight Sleep Pod 5 at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom Get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and your first month for free at https://join.whoop.com/modernwisdom Get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy App at https://rpstrength.com/modernwisdom - 0:00 Was Vittorio Actually a Jordan Peterson Fan? 1:29 Did Vittorio Get Spiked By a Redneck? 11:29 The UK’s Superior Sandwich Technology 17:57 How a Late Autism Diagnosis Changed Vittorio 24:54 When Do You Become Responsible for Your Actions? 29:29 The Discomfort of Making Someone Uncomfortable 31:12 How Big is the Autism Spectrum? 37:55 The Irish Times Article That Went Viral 44:22 UK vs US: Who Has the Best Roasts? 53:49 The Risk of Being Cringe Cancelled 01:06:00 Why You Shouldn’t Hide Your Ambition 01:23:00 Autism or Sociopathy: Where’s the Line? 01:25:33 Trusting Your Gut Can Be So Hard 01:30:09 Why Women Love Comedy Podcasts 01:39:04 Why Chris is Doing More Hang Episodes 01:44:00 Is This the Most Belfast-Coded Threat? 01:49:32 How Much Would You Sell Your Leg For? 01:56:05 Where to Find Vittorio - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  Maybe you are quite Peterson-pilled cleaning your room.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Listen, I read the Twelve Rules for Life book.

• 0:06Chris Williamson?

  Did you really?

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Found it helpful.

• 0:07Chris Williamson?

  Did you really?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  When I was like twenty two. And I'm so.

• 0:11Chris Williamson?

  Are you an ex-Jordan Peterson fan?

• 0:12Speaker 01

  So embarrassed.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  I'm so like spiritually, like, I don't know, something about me and my audience would hate the fact that I really found Jordan Peterson very helpful.

• 0:25Chris Williamson?

  And.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  And made my girlfriend watch it when I was twenty two. Be like, look at this guy, Kathy Newman's an idiot, isn't she?

• 0:32Speaker 01

  It's terrible. I'm so embarrassed by all of that, but like, he was like helpful and informative and. I think it was like self, it was self-help really, that like Twelve Rules for Life book. And I needed that. I needed someone to go fucking, come on, man. Grow, grow up, get your shit together.

• 0:51Chris Williamson?

  Do you think that your audience would guess that you were a previous Jordan Peterson stan?

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Hmm. Some of them, some of them I think won't be, or like wouldn't be like happy or like maybe they'd be surprised. But I think that's where I like to, like, I try to be honest about that stuff. And I like, I would like, I would like to hear someone be like, oh yeah, I found that helpful.

• 1:11Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  And then it went a bit crazy, you know? And so I tried to be like open about that. I was like, I'm still a dumb idiot guy.

• 1:19Chris Williamson?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  This is the problem. I write like, like narrative, thoughtful, thematic stand-up shows, but I'm a fucking idiot. Like, you know what I mean? So it's hard.

• 1:29Chris Williamson?

  You got spiked.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  I got spiked in Nashville. Listen, allegedly, I don't know. They were like, we could do a toxicology report on you. But it costs like X thousand dollars. And I was like, just give me whatever stops me vomiting right now. And I'll be okay. But I thought it was like, I thought it was just like a really unjust hangover. I was in Nashville. I did a show. I went for a couple of drinks afterwards and I gave a pool. And I was like, yeah, I had a couple of drinks. And then I remember like getting back to the, or like my friend giving me a lift back to the hotel and me being like, I am. Fucking trolled right now. Like, when did that happen?

• 2:10Speaker 01

  And then started playing him like Mongolian throat singing on Spotify, which was like that. I mean, I don't know if that's a symptom of being spiked.

• 2:21Chris Williamson?

  By a Mongolian?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. Maybe a Mongolian spiked me. Um, but then I don't remember lots of patches of the evening. And I don't remember getting into the hotel room and like going to bed or whatever. And when I woke up, my phone was like in the bathroom, not plugged in. And like all my shit was like all over the hotel room. And I woke up and I just thought it was like a really, you know, when you get a bad hangover, but you don't think you deserve it. You're like, I didn't, I wasn't that.

• 2:48Chris Williamson?

  This is unjust.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Exactly. It was like, this is not karmically balanced right now. So I got up and then I like vomited. And I was like, God, that was pretty bad. Did a shit, also pretty bad. And then I was like, come on, you just gotta get your shit together. Like I went, I went full Jordan Peterson. I was like, I just gotta tidy my room and I'll be okay. And then I vomited like once every thirty minutes for like the whole month until I checked out. And then I checked out of the hotel and had to go to the toilet in the lobby and throw up there. And I was like, this is not. This is no hangover I've experienced and I've drank a lot.

• 3:26Chris Williamson?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  In the past. And so the guy, this guy Ian, who was like filming the show and stuff. He was like still in town and he was like, do you want me to take you to like an IV clinic? And I was like, this is the most like American shit of all time of like, go to some weird like spa where they just hook, hook you.

• 3:45Chris Williamson?

  You're gonna wave sage at you, do a sound bowl.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  And then they were closed. So we were like, oh shit. And so we went to urgent care, which I don't really know what that is. Like, I don't know. The American healthcare system is like weird. It's not the emergency room, but it's like a step to.

• 4:00Chris Williamson?

  Half A and E.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  But it's also beside a burger restaurant. I was like, this, this country's fucked. This country's, this is where there should be like a barber shop or like, you know, but there's a healthcare facility. So I walked in and I think because I was just being like polite to the woman behind the desk. I was like, oh, hi, blah, blah, blah.

• 4:22Chris Williamson?

  She thought you were minimizing how serious it was.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  She just thought I was like kind of fine. And I like signed in and like just did like persistent vomiting. It was like my symptom on the thing. And then so I was sat there and like people kept getting called in before me. And then. At one point I was like, oh, I'm getting that feeling where I'm gonna like throw up again. And I was like texting my mom at the time. And her actual advice was throw up in the lobby. Cause then they'll.

• 4:47Chris Williamson?

  Escalate.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  They'll see you.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Which is like crazy mom advice of like just throw up on the floor.

• 4:55Chris Williamson?

  Pretty effective.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  And I didn't do that, but it was mainly because the bathroom was like right beside the reception desk.

• 5:03Chris Williamson?

  It's pretty egregious if the bathroom is within sight.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Exactly. They just go, bah, help.

• 5:12Chris Williamson?

  So it's your VIP pass.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I went into the bathroom and made a bit of a hullabaloo out of it to the point where I was like, okay, they can definitely hear.

• 5:20Chris Williamson?

  Oh, you hammed it up?

• 5:21Speaker 01

  I didn't ham it up. I just am a loud vomiter.

• 5:26Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so naturally allowed vomit.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  I'm screaming.

• 5:28Chris Williamson?

  Really?

• 5:29Speaker 01

  The whole time.

• 5:30Chris Williamson?

  I think I'm quite a shy vomiter.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 5:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. I liked, I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna make a fuss.

• 5:37Chris Williamson?

  I really don't wanna make a fuss.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  I'm making a fuss.

• 5:39Chris Williamson?

  Are you?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  I'm kicking up a fuss if I'm throwing up. I'm just.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  I hate it so much. So I sort of walk out. I'd stick my head out the door, like finish vomiting. Like nothing, there's nothing inside me, but it's just like, you know, horrible yellow like bile and awful stuff. So I stick my head out and go. Oh, I like, I keep vomiting. And they were like, they were like, yeah, we heard.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  I was like, I'm really sorry. They were like, someone's coming to see you now. It's like, okay, good. So I went in and they checked my blood pressure and whatever and did the basics. And they were like, okay, what's happened? I was like, listen, I had a few drinks last night, but this feels crazy. I've thrown up like seven times today. And I have nothing left to throw up, but it keeps happening. And then like, okay, it feels like you probably had something flipped in your drink. Uh, it's very common in Nashville, in like particularly like certain areas of Nashville. And I was like, that's a crazy thing to like define yourselves by. But like apparently it happens like all the time. And they were like, were you like looking after your drink? And I was like, no.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  I was farting around. I was just walking around, taking pictures, doing whatever. And my drink was just sat there. And they were like, yeah. And they're like, were you hanging around any like weird people? And I was like, no, I sort of knew people and you know, people I'd worked with and. And they were like, okay, that's kind of weird. And I was like, oh, and then I did start playing pool. And then these like real sort of like redneck guys challenged. They were like, we'll play you for the table. And I was like, yeah, cause I'm like quite good at pool.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  So I just absolutely tore these guys apart. And they got quite like aggro. At one point where my buddy was like, you should, you should cool it on the pool thing.

• 7:28Chris Williamson?

  You beat them so badly that you nearly started a fight.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Well, I just think cause I was like in a fun goofy, like I just done my show in Nashville. I was having a good, I was like laughing when stuff went in and. Like, you know, and then this guy came up and was like, you okay? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, oh, I just fucking like this redneck. And I was like, okay, whatever, blah, blah, blah. So I'm not saying they.

• 7:51Chris Williamson?

  Showboating.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 7:53Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  And I don't like, I'm not saying those guys definitely spiked my drink, but if I had to, if I was a betting man, my money's on Jimbo.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Which is his actual name. Uh, shout out to.

• 8:06Chris Williamson?

  Jimbo and his wife beat him.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Jimbo and his like really frightening looking wife, actually. She was really, she, from the moment I was like, yeah, let's play for it. She was like really angry about it. I don't know what was going on. So that's the working theory. And I have eaten like one sandwich and three spoons of porridge in the last like day and a half. I could collapse at any moment, but they stabbed, they injected my ass with like an anti-vomiting drug. And I was like, this is nice.

• 8:34Chris Williamson?

  Sick.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  This is nice. And two hundred dollars as well. They didn't fuck me up. I was expecting like American healthcare to get like. Really like, you know, cause shitloads. And two hundred dollars is crazy for like one injection or whatever, but like. Certainly so. I stopped vomiting and I made my flight to Austin, which was delayed by two hours, which I actually think was good. I got, is this bad? I got assistance through the airport.

• 8:58Chris Williamson?

  Of who?

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Do I just like typed on the app that I needed a wheelchair?

• 9:02Chris Williamson?

  You got wheeled through the airport? You're kidding me.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  I was like, I can't stand up for that long.

• 9:06Chris Williamson?

  You got wheeled through Nashville Airport?

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. They don't ask what's wrong. I think I said like ankle injury.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Cause I liked it, like a month ago, I was getting wheeled through airports because I had fucked up my ankle.

• 9:25Chris Williamson?

  Uh huh.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  They don't ask. I know this is so bad, like, but.

• 9:29Chris Williamson?

  Isn't it?

• 9:29Speaker 01

  A life hack.

• 9:30Chris Williamson?

  Well.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  You can just click the button.

• 9:32Chris Williamson?

  You don't need to, what, what did you click it when?

• 9:33Speaker 01

  I don't think they're allowed to ask. I don't think they're allowed to be like.

• 9:36Chris Williamson?

  Not all disabilities are visible, that kind of thing.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  I saw, I'm autistic, sunflower lanyard. I don't know.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  It's crazy. And I felt like a little bit bad for the person like pushing me through the airport, but I truly think I would have collapsed if I'd. Like queued for security and all that shit, which feels valid. I didn't tell them that I was like. Potentially had been poisoned by a redneck and like my, you know, cause I don't think they would let me on the flight. That's why I said ankle injury.

• 10:02Chris Williamson?

  In case you were infectious or something, or gonna explode everywhere?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Or like, I think insurance, I think if they are, if I'd walked in and be like, I think I've been drugged. I don't know with what, I can't stop vomiting. I think they would have been like, well, you might like die on the flight. So like, I think that like airlines, their insurance.

• 10:19Chris Williamson?

  That's gonna be an inconvenience for us.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  I think that would be a lot of paperwork if I died on the flight. Um, but yeah, got wheeled through. Pretty chill. It's like, it's a good move.

• 10:32Chris Williamson?

  That actually sounds like you had a nice time.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. I was in Nashville Airport crying on the phone to my mom because I kept shaking.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  I spent too much time practicing pool.

• 10:53Chris Williamson?

  I've been cursed with my ability to beat a redneck.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  I'm Icarus of the pool world.

• 10:57Chris Williamson?

  You flew too close to the black.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  That sounds crazy. That's what Jimbo said to me.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's crazy. So I'm not, I'm in, we're in Austin. It's my first North American tour. I'm in the States for the whole month. And the whole thing was like, guys, it's pretty like, you know, in the States, pretty much by myself for the whole month. This is like stressful, but I'm gonna be on top of it. And I am now not going to drink for the rest of the month.

• 11:29Chris Williamson?

  Have you been on top of it up until getting poisoned?

• 11:32Speaker 01

  I had a crazy one, and this is gonna become a stand up routine, but like, no, the problem with the stand up routine at the minute is nobody believes that it happened. Uh, went to LA first. That was good fun. A terrible city. It's not really a city. It's not a place. It's just roads. It's roads with occasional things. Like, I know that is what a city is, but it's not, it's got nothing tying it together. Um, and then went to New York and my girlfriend came at me in New York and we were like, let's do some like, you know,

• 12:00Chris Williamson?

  couple shit.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  touristy things. Let's get a bagel. Let's do whatever. And uh, so it was the day after I landed into New York. Uh, we were walking around, we got a bagel and then we went to the nine eleven memorial. And we were like, it was just nearby and we were like, that's pretty like, you know, important to see. And I, this is the bit that people don't believe in audiences. I um, I shit myself at the nine eleven memorial.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  I turned to my girlfriend and was like, oh no. And she was like, yeah, it's so sad.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  And I was like, I've shit my pants. I've shit my full pants. Um, it was like a short, it was like pretty small, but not great.

• 12:46Chris Williamson?

  So this trip so far has actually been defined by your bowels.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  I don't think food in this country is good for you.

• 12:52Chris Williamson?

  It's not food.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  It's not food.

• 12:54Chris Williamson?

  It's not really food.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  I tried to get like a super plain sandwich at the airport in Nashville. And it's like, this bread isn't bread. This turkey isn't turkey. None of this is food.

• 13:03Chris Williamson?

  No, that's something, that's something that American people, I think, are missing out on. Advanced country, military, technology, AI, all this stuff. Sandwich technology just has not crossed over from the UK. When you think about, they don't understand what the meal deal is.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Oh, it's a gorgeous institution.

• 13:22Chris Williamson?

  Dude, you know, I found this out because uh, Newtonics and the Sainsbury's meal deal now. So.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Congratulations.

• 13:27Chris Williamson?

  Thank you very much. It's a bit, that's kind of a little bit like being uh, knighted. It's like, it's getting an OBE or an MBE or something. It's not quite a knighthood yet. Um, anyway, the average British citizen has seventy meal deals a year.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  That's, that is low. That is, I, in my opinion, that is low.

• 13:46Chris Williamson?

  I know, but that's the average. Right. There's gonna be some people from home that you're never gonna see a meal deal or whatever. But the fact that you can't get, I don't even know how to describe the institution, this, this kind of almost quasi religion that is the meal deal in the UK to Americans.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Three pound fifty, it used to be three pounds and you get like, so it's a main, a side and a drink. But those categories are like slightly, I think Bartlett's got his hue in the main section somehow.

• 14:17Chris Williamson?

  So you can get two drinks.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Well, Bartlett would of course argue that it's not a drink, it's a meal. But um, you know, does have lead in it, so that's fine. So you can get like mostly sandwiches, wraps, like.

• 14:30Chris Williamson?

  Sushi if you're a fancy one.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Salads, but it's just pasta. There's no vegetables in it. It's pasta, mayonnaise, chicken and bacon, and they call it a chicken and bacon pasta salad.

• 14:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, with no salad in, no vegetables at all. It's the sandwiches. There's a big difference.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Sandwich is the big difference.

• 14:46Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, where you've got bread that's made from bread and you've got, you know, two cut diagonally as well. And I think when it comes to sandwiches, the increase in the tastiness of a sandwich by cutting it corner to corner.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 15:02Chris Williamson?

  Instant, what, fifteen percent maybe improvement in the taste of the sandwich, I think.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  But what is the possible rationale for that?

• 15:11Chris Williamson?

  What's the mechanism that it's working on? Is that what you're saying?

• 15:13Speaker 01

  I completely agree, but I don't understand.

• 15:16Chris Williamson?

  I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna give you a piece of toast, right? Buttered, well buttered, warm toast, done nicely, sort of a six out of ten to six and a half out of ten toastiness. There it is. Just normal piece. You're like, it was nice. It was a nice piece of toast. And now I cut it like that and give it to you. That's a treat. That's a real treat.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  It's a bit nice. Somebody's looking after you. It's the attention to detail. I think it's more difficult to cut something diagonally than it is to do that. Even though it's definitely like a machine that does that, but even still.

• 15:45Chris Williamson?

  Superior sandwich technology.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  But then Ireland is a step above the UK for sandwiches. Cause every shop has a deli counter where they will make you a sandwich.

• 15:54Chris Williamson?

  Make you a sandwich.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  In front of you with like a proper like baguette, like proper bread. Chicken fillet roll is like the big thing in, in Ireland.

• 16:02Chris Williamson?

  Chicken fillet roll?

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:04Chris Williamson?

  You mean the fillet of a chicken?

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Like, so it's like a chicken, uh, like breaded chicken.

• 16:11Chris Williamson?

  Right. Oh, okay. Like Goojones type thing.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a roll, in like a baguette. And then you can get like anything you want on it. And it's like every centra, every spar, like has a deli counter where they do chicken fillet rolls. It's, it's amazing. And they don't have it.

• 16:29Chris Williamson?

  Maybe Ireland has superior sandwiches.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Ireland's top of the sandwich tree.

• 16:32Chris Williamson?

  You think?

• 16:32Speaker 01

  I would say, yeah. I'm sure like Philadelphia would like be annoyed with me about that for their like cheese.

• 16:37Chris Williamson?

  New York might not be too happy either, but uh, the other thing that I miss is saurine.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Oh, that weird, I've never had that. I think we have an equivalent in Belfast, which is called Veda.

• 16:48Chris Williamson?

  Like malt loaf, yeah. Unbelievable. But in malt loaf, dude, and again, corner to corner on that. Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution? Something that identifies low T faster than a high school bully and it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where Function comes in. Gives you access to over a hundred and sixty lab tests, including a deep dive into your full hormone panel. Every result is reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of range is flagged. You get clear explanations with a personalized protocol with actionable next steps. So if something's off, you know exactly what to do about it. Whether you just need to go to the gym more or you need to play Creed louder in your car. Function will tell you exactly where your testosterone and everything else stands.

• 17:32Chris Williamson?

  Normally this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it's three hundred and sixty five dollars a year. That's one dollar a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now you can get twenty five dollars off, bringing it down to three hundred and forty bucks. So get the exact same blood panels that I do and save twenty five dollars by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com slash modern wisdom, using the code modern wisdom at checkout. Uh, you mentioned before uh, autism, adult autism diagnosis.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, age twenty nine, right? Yeah.

• 18:04Chris Williamson?

  What's changed since that happened? Anything?

• 18:08Speaker 01

  I don't know. A lot of people who get the diagnosis are like, and everything suddenly made sense and I could manage my life and I could, you know, get over these obstacles that I'd always struggled with. But I think it's like, for me, it felt like an extremely gradual process where like, there was, it starts with like jokes, like your friends just call you autistic, basically. And then I sort of socially bumped into a lot of people, like in a negative way, just got some things wrong. And to the, but then, like I would have an interaction with somebody that I thought was like positive. And then I would get like a big message the next day saying how much I'd like insulted them or like.

• 18:52Chris Williamson?

  You'd stepped over some social faux pas that you didn't see.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  I'd like not, I was just like, what a nice chat. And then the next day they're like, you, you make me feel like shit every time we talk. Um, and those are just the people who are like.

• 19:04Chris Williamson?

  Prepared to reach out.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Exactly. So I must be doing this all the fucking time.

• 19:08Chris Williamson?

  You're saying there's a wake of destruction, wake of autistic destruction behind you.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  There may well be, and I just have no.

• 19:14Chris Williamson?

  Completely oblivious, blissfully unaware.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Completely no idea. It's so, it's definitely not blissful. It's unaware. I think this is a misconception about autism that we, that it's like blissful lack of awareness as far as you're affecting people socially. It's that I am constantly so worried that I've upset people, but I have no way to tell if that's the case whatsoever. So you're just like swinging punches with a blindfold on, going like apologizing when you didn't need to apologize and like.

• 19:41Chris Williamson?

  You're missing the mark on both sides.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  I'm fucking it. I'm fucking it in both directions. I'm apologizing when I had no need to apologize. I'm patting myself on the back when I've ruined somebody's day. And that, I sort of, that made me reach out to a medical professional and go, hey, there's something, there's something going on here. Um, also, I was like a very strange child. I was very anxious. I like had loads of panic attacks when I was like nine, ten, eleven years old. Um, ran away from school and like tried to run home and was like, just couldn't, had to be, had to do lessons in like a different room to everybody else, just do worksheets by myself, had to go in through a different entry to primary school, like different door.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Cause I just couldn't deal with like the crowds of people and all this stuff. Um, I punched my primary school principal. Uh, cause I was trying to run away and she, and she was trying to stop me running away.

• 20:36Chris Williamson?

  How old were you?

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Nine.

• 20:40Chris Williamson?

  At what point does a punch become a punch?

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Like at what age?

• 20:43Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah, it's like a puppy, like nip, like biting your ankle or whatever. It's like, oh, that's cute. Up until the point.

• 20:50Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. And then it's actually assault.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  I would say like probably the cutoff is like ten or eleven.

• 20:55Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you just nipped in.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:57Chris Williamson?

  Just before. You're like inverse Russell Brand.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  But then like full.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Can we dig into that? Can we pick that apart? I'm inverse Russell Brand.

• 21:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, because Russell flew very close to the sun, but on the legal side. And you.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  For now.

• 21:14Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, true, true, true.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 21:17Chris Williamson?

  You know what I mean? So you, there was an age cutoff that was about to happen and you got in just before it.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:22Chris Williamson?

  And there was an age cutoff that was about to happen and Russell got in just after it.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 21:27Chris Williamson?

  Inverse Russell Brand.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Sounds like barely legal.

• 21:36Chris Williamson?

  Barely legal punch.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was me.

• 21:39Chris Williamson?

  That's what you are.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  And so there was all that and it all sort of added up to me reaching out to a doctor. Just like my local GP in London. And they were like, yeah, this sounds like worth investigating. Let's do like a phone call. And I had a phone call with like the specialist on the NHS. And they're like, great, we'll add you to the list, the waiting list for the assessment. And I was like, okay, how long does that normally take? And they were like, four years? And I was like, okay, cool. And then I sort of had a bit about it in my last tour show. And as I was going around and touring, I discovered along with my audience that I had a lot of autistic people attending my shows. And a lot of autism practitioners attending my shows.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  So I got five offers across the tour of people to do the assessment for free privately. Cause they were just at the show and they were like, oh, that's my job. And I can just, you know, rather than costing like two grand to do it, I'll just do it for you. So I did the one that was closest to London, went through the whole process. You have like four or five different appointments. You have to fill out forms. My girlfriend and my mom had to fill out forms.

• 22:42Chris Williamson?

  Character reference.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like from your perspective, what does this look like? From your perspective, what does this look like? And then from like my own perspective, what does that look like? And, and it came back and they were like, you're like a little bit raised in lots of these things, like the traits, but then like incredibly high on masking. So basically pretending you don't have autism. And which basically sort of explains why these aren't as raised as.

• 23:09Chris Williamson?

  You even managed to mask the test.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  But I mean, basically, and apparently this is like, it's a similar reason why like women, it's much harder to diagnose autism because they're much more concerned with like the group dynamics. So they're much more adept at masking and they're told to mask a bit more or expected to mask a bit more societally. So I think I have like girl autism. Which is like quite exciting.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  I also think it's like a comedian thing where I'd mask professionally. Like the job is say something you've said a million times as if it's the first time you've said it. But that's also like being autistic in the world.

• 23:47Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Is like, somebody asked me this question. I know what I'm going to say. Because I'm not conversing intuitively. I'm doing a little script that I'm following that I've learned. Is how people like to be interacted with. So I've like, that's what stand up is. So I think I'm like just a touring masker. Which is quite, I think that's why the.

• 24:08Chris Williamson?

  But a global masker as well across the rest of your life.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. And then that's a weird feeling to sort of like, what does it mean to unmask? Like, I don't want to be rude to people. I think some people get diagnosed and then decide that they can just like.

• 24:23Chris Williamson?

  Free wheeling asshole.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Be a dickhead.

• 24:25Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  And I don't want to do that, but I do hope that like maybe the diagnosis and me being like public about the diagnosis. Means that if I do fuck up socially, then people like won't be as upset, not even for my benefit.

• 24:39Chris Williamson?

  Got this autism card here that you're not allowed to be mean to me.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  But not even for me. I'm just like, please don't take any of this personally.

• 24:48Chris Williamson?

  I'm trying.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  I won't have meant that, like, you know, because I, I hate upsetting people. Like it's my least favorite thing.

• 24:54Chris Williamson?

  It is an interesting point. At what point are you culpable for your actions?

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Hmm, you have to be.

• 24:59Chris Williamson?

  Like that guy that had Tourette's, was it the BAFTAs?

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, fuck everybody that was mean to him. Fuck every single person that was mean to him about that. I like, I was so angry about that whole scenario. I didn't think I was a particularly well versed person on like Tourette's. But apparently no one in America has ever done even the most base, like what's any.

• 25:20Chris Williamson?

  Research.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Like any awareness of what it is whatsoever. And.

• 25:25Chris Williamson?

  We've known about it in the UK. I, I don't ever remember a time of not knowing about Tourette's, like even when I was a kid, I think.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Reggie Yates did a documentary called Super Tourette's.

• 25:34Chris Williamson?

  Is that, is that?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Cause that's an actual medical term, super Tourette's.

• 25:36Chris Williamson?

  And what's that?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  So their tics, like their physical tics are so intense that they like fall down. And it's like funny.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  And obviously like devastating and debilitating for them, but like, I think they should have come up with a different name.

• 25:55Chris Williamson?

  It sounds desirable.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Super Tourette's.

• 25:57Chris Williamson?

  It sounds like what you get if you upgrade, if you press the upgrade button when you're adding to the cart.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Tourette's plus.

• 26:02Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it is. It's the, it is, it's the value meal. It's a Happy Meal equivalent.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:07Chris Williamson?

  And do you want to drink with that? Supersize it?

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, supersize your Tourette's.

• 26:11Chris Williamson?

  Supersized Tourette's.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. So and then, so all these Hollywood actors coming out and being like, I think he meant that. Why was that word in his brain? And I'm like, because it's the worst thing you could say in that moment. And

• 26:24Speaker 01

  that's, that's the condition.

• 26:25Chris Williamson?

  Wasn't that same guy while on the documentary, when his dog was about to cross the road, was said to his dog like, cross the road, nope. And then his fight, not even his interactions with his favorite animal.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:37Chris Williamson?

  Like he's, there's no, I mean, Lewis Capaldi, like the pressure of his second album. I don't know whether he gave him Tourette's, but it sort of caused it to emerge.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think like it can ramp up with stress and stuff. And like being at the BAFTAs. As a guy who's like a school caretaker, like janitor, I hated everybody going all these poor actors on stage. It's like, who would you rather be? Hollywood elite millionaire on stage, having a not nice word. Yeah, a not nice word shouted at you. Or like working class guy who's just going to go back to like mopping floors. When he leaves the BAFTAs, who has like struggled with a debilitating neurological condition for his whole life.

• 27:21Chris Williamson?

  And now on the biggest stage he's ever had, has displayed it to the entire world.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also in a room of people at the BAFTAs, they're all supposed to be members of the academy. And they're all supposed to have watched all the films. So they should all have seen the film about the guy who shouts inappropriate things. And they were all like, what is going on? Do your job, watch the thing for the award you're going to. And if you don't understand something, I just, he was getting death threats online. And at no point did anyone from like the Jamie Foxx side of things. Who like called him racist and all that stuff come out and go, oh, hey, like it should have been edited out. Cause that's a very embarrassing moment for those guys on stage.

• 28:02Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  But like, it's not this guy's fault.

• 28:06Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  The guy's like got a disability. So I fucking, I've been angry about that though, since it happened, basically.

• 28:14Chris Williamson?

  It's pretty mean to see unfold.

• 28:18Chris Williamson?

  Weird, isn't it? Sort of social decorums. So

• 28:23Chris Williamson?

  saying the right things, behaving in the right way, in the right spaces is so highly sought after and, and, and that kind of deviation from that behavior. Like we're okay with disabilities for people, for like young kids that need help in very obvious ways. But this one that's socially difficult to deal with, autism is another one, like or people that have got OCD and maybe unable to operate in the world in a way that's convenient for everybody else. It's like, we don't, I don't have to, like, not those ones.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  The difficult conversations of where accessibility meets inclusivity meets like, he should be like, there's people coming out saying he shouldn't have been at the awards thing. And I'm like, what are we doing here? Like you're supposed to be the kind of progressive welcoming.

• 29:09Chris Williamson?

  You see, you're telling me that if there was a person in a wheelchair and there was no ramp, that they shouldn't have been there.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Fuck them.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Army crawl your way onto the stage. If a person in a wheelchair had won an award and everyone went, ah, it's too much fun.

• 29:21Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Just throw that.

• 29:23Chris Williamson?

  Someone just launch them up. Yeah, exactly. Shot put them. Have you got any shot putters that have done this evening? Shot put that person up there. And what's interesting was, um, listening to you tell your story about what childhood was like for you. And some of those scripts, certainly for me, reflecting on my childhood, one of my most common recurring uncomfortable dreams is me doing something to another person that I thought was just a bit of fun. Or I thought was a normal interaction.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:51Chris Williamson?

  To then find out that I've crossed some invisible line that I didn't know existed.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:58Chris Williamson?

  And to then immediately feel horrendous about it.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:01Chris Williamson?

  The last one of these I had was about two weeks ago or so. And it was Yasmin, who does the guest booking that got you here. We were walking down the street and I had a, like a gate rate bottle like that, that had water in. And I thought we were just playing about and I sort of splashed some water at her. And that turned out to be this huge faux pas that I'd done. And immediately I felt terrible. And then I woke up and I was, I was all, I was all anxious. And I just woke up and that was it. And that's, that is a consistent

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:30Chris Williamson?

  theme, not only in my life, but also in the dreams that I've had for like a, like that is the, if you were to pick the center of the bullseye of my awkwardness in reality, it's me doing a thing and someone being mad at me without me realizing that I'd done it. And then finding out importantly, then finding out.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Occasionally you do something in your life, whether it's in work or relationships where you go, look, this might upset this person, but I'm going in with my eyes open and I like still think this is the right thing to do. Even though it's going to be like uncomfortable or upset them. And that's one thing, but then like just being so blindsided by it. What do you think? Like, are you, are you interested in the past? Like, do you think you might have autism? Like, I don't want to be one of these autistic people.

• 31:19Chris Williamson?

  Wear your culture as my costume.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  No, but like, and God, there's enough autistic people that go around diagnosing everyone else. But like, I, like, what would you?

• 31:29Chris Williamson?

  I have no idea. I have absolutely no idea. There's certainly some trait. I mean, again, pathologizing anything, everything is just some, some form of a spectrum, right? And at some point you breach the threshold for it to be said. And now you are depressed and now you are anxious and now you are Asperger's and now da, da, da, da. But I, I've always made this joke, which is maybe a self-protection thing. I don't know the difference between being an only child and being autistic.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  You're just an unsocialized boy.

• 32:00Chris Williamson?

  Bingo.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  You weren't introduced to other dogs when you were young.

• 32:04Chris Williamson?

  Or maybe that ramps up your predisposition a little bit because there's all of the memes around, well, you know, people that have got autism can't hold eye contact. People that have got autism are unable to operate socially. They they need to do stimming, they need to ta ta ta ta ta ta. And then you realize actually there's an infinity number of ways that it can show up. But then also people's desire to have some form of mental pathology so that they can have a thing. I think autism is, it is sort of the sexy new, if you're gonna have a mental malady, it's one of the ones that people kind of typically are like, okay, it's like, I'm just autistic. Like, you know, it's it's a word that gets run around an awful lot.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's difficult. I think it, there's a great book. There's two great books by comedians about adult autism diagnosis. There's Fern Brady, a strong female character, and there's Pierre Nivelli, Why Can't I Just Enjoy Things? And the real sort of like shot chaser, like Fern's just like, fuck, mad. And Pierre's is like, and here's why I think. But it's really, really interesting. And Pierre talks about a couple of things in that

• 33:14Speaker 01

  where what I, where he says like, the terminology like of the word like autism will probably become like defunct reasonably soon. Because it's a really big umbrella term. Like a really big umbrella term. And a helpful thing was the Asperger's category, but you're not supposed to say that anymore because he was a Nazi.

• 33:42Chris Williamson?

  Who was?

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Asperger.

• 33:44Chris Williamson?

  He was the guy that discovered it.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, invented it. I don't know what the word is, but discovered or like categorized it as a thing. He was like a Nazi, so it's not named after him anymore. So the appropriate term now is like autism level one, which is what I have, which is Asperger's.

• 33:58Chris Williamson?

  Oh, okay.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Asperger's was.

• 34:00Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  And then autism level two, and the three levels.

• 34:02Chris Williamson?

  So you're actually a Nazi in this regard?

• 34:03Speaker 01

  I am a Nazi. That's, I think that's what it means.

• 34:06Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  But the, in this regard, in loads of regards.

• 34:10Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  The, and then the level two and then level three. And it's basically like, how much help do you need to exist in like normal neurotypical life? So like level one is like, you don't need any outside assistance to like go through your life.

• 34:23Chris Williamson?

  Possible wheelchair.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Like you can cope with the world. And then level two is like, you might need some help. Like, or like, you know, care or whatever. And then level three is like, you can't exist in the world. You're basically full time care, all that stuff. And like, you know, like to have me and then somebody who's nonverbal and hits themselves in the head and like cuts their arms by like scratching so repeatedly. Like, it's sort of crazy that we've got the same diagnosis. And I get that, like, look, there's people with cancer and then there's people with cancer, you know? It's like stage one, stage two, stage three, stage four. It's a similar thing. I guess the autism doesn't develop, hopefully, hopefully, in that direction. But I do think it feels strange. What I like about it versus, so I got diagnosed with ADHD as well.

• 35:14Chris Williamson?

  Oh, a really want to punch.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it was like buy one, get one free or something.

• 35:17Chris Williamson?

  Package deal.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they, I don't like care about that one really as much. Partly because I think it might be over diagnosed, or I would worry that it's over diagnosed because there's medication for it. So what's nice about autism is there's no like big pharma money that you can follow to go, well, they would be motivated to diagnose lots of people with autism because then they could sell these drugs or whatever. Whereas with ADHD, they are motivated to diagnose lots of people that ADHD because there is medication for it. So that's why I like, I think the autism one feels a little bit.

• 35:52Chris Williamson?

  You have been spending a good bit of time in America.

• 35:56Chris Williamson?

  The big, the big pharma conspiracies are already running rampant.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the thing is like, the NHS is like an amazing thing that is like being a bit fucked over. But the big pharma still gets their sort of claws in because they're just selling it to the NHS rather than, you know, you're sort of.

• 36:14Chris Williamson?

  Whether the money comes direct from you or comes from you through your taxes through the NHS and back out.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  There's still money sort of at the end of it. And so I would worry about that a little bit with the ADHD diagnosis. And I haven't tried the medication for ADHD.

• 36:28Chris Williamson?

  What is it?

• 36:29Speaker 01

  It's like speed.

• 36:31Chris Williamson?

  That's good.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like Ritalin. But apparently like if you have ADHD, you like, it doesn't make you, like, just, you can do your taxes.

• 36:42Chris Williamson?

  That's a real, that's a real, like litmus test.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  That feels like a chemical.

• 36:48Chris Williamson?

  How you should do it.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:49Chris Williamson?

  You should say, okay, take this and then just see if this person starts bouncing off the walls or if they do sit down and and and read.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  I was read an interesting thing, and I don't know if this is like even nearly scientifically true. But there's a massive comorbidity with autism and a thing called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, which is like hypermobility and like the soft tissue in your bones and joints. And I am like quite hypermobile, like my wrist pops out and like things dislocate on me all the time.

• 37:13Chris Williamson?

  As someone that plays a bit of sport, great.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:16Chris Williamson?

  Wonderful.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Terrible nightmare. But, so yeah, that. But then some people have said, well, what if, like, they are, they're not like happening at the same time sort of by chance or whatever, it's just the same thing as in like the soft tissue in your bones and joints. It's also affecting the soft tissue.

• 37:35Chris Williamson?

  You've got, you've got bone autism.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  No, but it's affecting the soft tissue in your brain. Cause there's different types of tissue in your brain and the connective stuff between all the bits.

• 37:42Chris Williamson?

  So you've got brain Ehlers-Danlos condition or whatever.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  I've got hypermobile brain, although hypermobile doesn't feel like a good word for, oh, autistic people's brains work. They're not exactly flexible.

• 37:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. What happened with this Irish Times article thing?

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Oh, that was interesting. I feel a little bit bad about that. And I've spoken to the lady who wrote the article and I had spoken to her before she wrote the article. And so to fill people in, like, I, there was a write up about a few different things in the Irish Times, like me, Sally Rooney and NACAP, just the big three. And, and it, within it, there was sort of like a couple of paragraphs of like a review of my show that they'd come and seen. And I'd like spoken to her on the phone about it and she'd written like really interesting articles about like Ireland has an incredibly high GDP and is a very wealthy country, but the public services like are dog shit.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Like public transport's really bad. There's no national health service. There's like this, that and the other like. Whereas we had, the whole point of this, like letting all these corporations come into Dublin and have their offices there is that you do make some money off them and then that goes into like.

• 38:55Chris Williamson?

  Do you benefit from that north of the border?

• 38:57Speaker 01

  And no.

• 38:58Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  No, but like the whole blah, blah, blah.

• 39:00Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  And, and I think she's really interesting. I think she's really clever. And but when she wrote about my show, she said that like it was unapologetically local. And like, if you don't get the references, that's your problem. And she like quoted another review that gave me two stars at the fringe of someone who clearly just like didn't get the show at all. Which is one of my favorite reviews, actually, the two star one. It really made me laugh quite a lot. And but I just, like, she'd phrased it in a way that I was like, oh, that's a bit annoying. Like this is quite a big like newspaper. And if I were someone that didn't know who Vittorio Manzoni was, and I read that, I would think that's just like, it's a bit of a stereotype of Northern Irish comedians that we just do the, you know, it's funny because it's local thing of going.

• 39:42Chris Williamson?

  And also it's inaccessible, which means if I was maybe thinking that I was gonna buy a ticket. I'm like, well, I don't speak Belfast.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's just like, whereas in the show, like, that was the point I made when I did like a post about it on Instagram being like, I, you know, wrote this show in London, trialed it all around England, did it at the Edinburgh Fringe, did it in New York. I've now done it in America. And in the article, she said, like, I refuse to explain myself. But I like truly don't like I do loads of exposition and like explain. And that's like the fun of the show is like going, hey, this place I'm from is a bit fucked up. Here's why, here's this, here's that, here's this weird quirk about it. And like opening it out to the, is like the sort of half of the point of the show that I've written. And I was just like a little bit annoyed. So I just was like, oh, you know, just post a little thing on Instagram.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  And this has happened a couple of times recently and this is like, I think this, don't know if this is an autism thing, but like, maybe, where I just think I'm like, having a little bit of fun or like just informing people of something like my run of shows in Belfast. One of the nights, like 20 people arrived 30 minutes late. And I like asked the audience, I was like, oh, like, is it unclear on the website? What time this starts? And they were like, yeah, kind of. And so in the interval, I just went on my, on Instagram and did like a black square, white text and was like, oh, 20 people just arrived, half an hour later for my show. And for the rest of this week, doors are at this time, shows at this time, chef the matinees, doors are at this time, show at this time, thanks.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  And it's gotten like more views than most of my standup clips. I think because people think I'm being like

• 41:18Chris Williamson?

  tatty.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  really fucking rude or whatever. But it was just like, here are the facts of the situation and here's how I can help. And then I think with the Irish Times, I was like, just trying to do a little, I didn't like the way this person phrased themselves about my show. And then.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  It like just blew up in like a kind of mad way where it has like forty thousand likes or something. And then some people going, I think you've misread the article. And I, but I agree, she was trying to compliment me in the article. But I just, I don't, I don't think it came across in a way that was like nice. So I tried to do a little post about it. And then she reached out and was like, oh, I think you've kind of taken me out of context. And I was like, you and me both, sister, like, you know, we're kind of, it was a funny phone call. She was like, you're gonna apologize? And I was like, are you? Like, we both pissed each other off.

• 42:02Chris Williamson?

  Fucking standing armies here.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  We're both probably in the wrong a little bit.

• 42:06Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  And didn't phrase ourselves perfectly. And I maybe shouldn't have put her na- like in the screenshot, I kept her name and like the article. But I'm also like, your name's in the newspaper beside where the article is. Like, it's not like, it's hard to find out who wrote the article. But then, the problem with the internet is it's just full of accounts, isn't it? So like, people sent her like horrible messages on Instagram and stuff. And I was like, I don't know how much responsibility I need to take for my audience, but like, I'm sorry that that happened. That wasn't my intention. And like, you know, we're like friendly enough now and just have a sort of agree to disagree thing on that. And that, I think she didn't phrase herself well. She thinks I didn't phrase myself well. And like, I don't know, like, it's very easy as a comedian to do this whole like, fuck everybody,

• 42:51Speaker 01

  I don't fucking care. And if somebody has to go at me, whoa, I'm just a comedian or whatever, like, but I don't like, that's not how I like to exist in the world. Like, I upset somebody, so I reached out to them and had a phone call and was like, hey, let's fucking talk this way. We might not agree at the end of the conversation, but.

• 43:07Chris Williamson?

  Have a half apology each.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe even. I don't think either of us really apologized. But it was just like, okay, I sort of understand where you're coming from. You sort of understand where I'm coming from. It's nice.

• 43:18Chris Williamson?

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• 43:46Chris Williamson?

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• 44:30Chris Williamson?

  had happened in the UK. Because, I don't know, from, I've been in the US for four years now, but obviously still listen to a lot of you, listen to a lot of Finn, listen to the Screen Rant Boys, you know, listening to, yeah, I've said to you before, this is my, it's my way to tap back into a little bit of British culture. It sort of reminds me that Jaffa cakes and the inbetweeners and, you know, like, Wayne Lineker still exists. Like, it's very important for me to have my cultural way markers.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  The three pillars of the UK?

• 44:59Chris Williamson?

  Correct. Jaffa cakes, inbetweeners and Wayne Lineker. Yeah. This is true. But I was thinking, because you guys did a roast recently, maybe not, you know, not Netflix and Kevin Hart or whatever, but, and then what's happening with, whatever we want to call it, like, British comedy now, it seems like the new, what I'm seeing is a new sort of half generation that's stepping through, which have been mostly borne out by the internet, although everyone's done a million years of stand up. I'm aware that everyone's driven to, like, woking and shit house.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Went to Pizza Express.

• 45:32Chris Williamson?

  Exactly. Like, done all of those things. Like, they've done that for a long time. And now they've just burst on the internet. But from getting public awareness, people are just starting to break through. And that's really cool. And it feels like there's this next sort of wave that's, that's, that's on its way, which is real exciting. But to see the number of different factions, and maybe this is just because America's such a big country, and so many people hate each other, and it's very contentious. But it's like, an earthquake occurs, this big thing happens, and then there's all of these aftershocks that go on afterward. So then Chelsea Handler is gonna go on Don Lemon's podcast, and she's gonna talk about this. And then Shane's gonna talk to Matt, and they're gonna say this

• 46:15Chris Williamson?

  thing. And then Tony, I don't know whether he's piped up yet, but he's gonna, and everyone's waiting. It's almost, you know what it is? It's almost like someone's had a boxing fight, and then you're waiting for the post-fight press conference.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:27Chris Williamson?

  And you're waiting to hear, well, you know, I just wasn't on form this evening. The training camp was great, but tonight I just wasn't about, or he missed weight. I can't believe we've had to pay the purse. Like, then we need to run them back at the papa. And I don't, I haven't seen that level of cattiness in the UK. I don't know whether it's not big enough for the factions to go, whether I'm just not paying enough attention, whether there's not a large enough pie for everybody to be worried about that. You all need to keep in good friends, because like, the likelihood of you bumping into someone is probably higher than it is in the US. So like, there's this enforcement mechanism of, I just don't want to have to face, I don't have to bump into you and feel like

• 47:10Chris Williamson?

  you've got this unsaid stuff, like you and this journalist lady, maybe. Or maybe there's more decorum, more politeness. I don't know. I just, I was thinking about it because a few clips popped up of your guys' roast from a little while ago, and then the Kevin Hart one, and I was comparing the two. And I thought it was kind of interesting about how, yeah, the, the difference in the post-fight press conference.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Well, I think like, the roast thing is such a big, like, it's been in American culture for a long time. Like, the Don Rickles stuff, it's much older in this country than it is in the UK culturally. Whereas, because like, we've, like, you could very easily, I don't know if he would do it, but like, you could do like a roast of Jimmy Carr, like in the UK on Netflix. But what, like, you know, whether that would cut through in the UK, or what that was. And, you know, that was the have a word podcast, did that roast that we did in the UK. And I think, like, it didn't, it's sort of people who've been on their podcast, and we all have our own followings and like, and it was also just

• 48:12Speaker 01

  on their Patreon, and clips are just going out as like clips. But like, I don't know, the roast thing's fun. I think it's become like, reaction has become such a big part of culture, maybe particularly in America, where it's like, this person reacts to this thing. It's half of YouTube is videos that have gone viral, and then people just watching those videos. Did it start with Two Girls, One Cup? Maybe. It might have.

• 48:38Chris Williamson?

  That was patient zero.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Of reaction culture?

• 48:40Chris Williamson?

  Patient double zero.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Because like, there's more videos of people watching Two Girls, One Cup than obviously the one video that is Two Girls, One Cup. You know what I mean? Like, there's all these people being like, oh, that's fucking disgusting. And I think like, I don't know, I thought a lot of that roast stuff was like, they're all funny jokes. I saw all the, like, lots of the jokes at the Comedy Store the week of, because everybody was like, practicing their jokes. I was at that crazy night at the Comedy Store where Chappelle showed up and then brought on Gillis, and then brought on Louis CK, and then brought on Chris Rock, and then brought on Kanye West.

• 49:18Chris Williamson?

  Kanye West was at the Comedy Store.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  So I, it was the day after I landed in LA. I went to the, I didn't have anything to do on the Sunday night, like, the day before the Netflix as a joke festival started. And I was like, I'll just go watch like, the open mic at the Comedy Store to like, I like to do that when I arrive in a place I've never been before, like, see some like really bad stand up comedy.

• 49:39Chris Williamson?

  To like, picked a great night.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Well, I do, well, I, well, because the problem with the Comedy Store is the open mic becomes the proper show. And I, just as like a confidence boost, wanted to be like, let's fucking watch some shit, people. And to be fair, they were shit. And we were sort of enjoying it. And I'd been there for like, maybe an hour when the proper show started, and then they started bringing on people. But the problem is, I arrived and was like, tried to do like, I, I don't want to be like, again, I think, didn't know what the social norm was, but walked up to the door and was like, oh, hi, I'm a comedian in town for the Netflix festival, and I was just hoping to watch the show. And they were like, yes, twenty dollars. And I was like, okay, that's like, fine, whatever. Give him twenty. I was like, I don't think, okay, that's fine. Give him twenty dollars. And then they're

• 50:24Speaker 01

  like, okay, put your phone in this little bag, blah, blah, blah. And then they walk me through and sit me in the front row. And I'm like, this is, this is silly that I'm here. But like, because I'm not a great laugher. I like a comedy show. I don't know, like, I'm okay, but like, not the worst, but I sort of just sit there and like, quietly enjoy and analyze it, because I'm so like, in the weeds of what it is.

• 50:44Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  And, but I'm sat at the front in the corner. And like, nearly every comedian on like, the main show referenced the fact that I wasn't laughing. Like, this guy fucking hates it.

• 50:56Chris Williamson?

  Not knowing that.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was loving it. I was having a good time. Paulie Shore called me gay for his whole set. And this is like, quite fun. Called me a gay Nazi. And it was like, fun. And then, yeah, and then I noticed the security going around and taking people's Apple watches, even though they'd already got everybody's phones, and like, putting those in pockets. And I was like, oh, somebody, somebody famous is about to walk on. And then that's when they brought Chappelle on. And then he brought on all those people. So I saw a lot of those roasts. And it's so funny, the one that's gotten like, Gillis in trouble on the internet or whatever, or the one that Chelsea Handler's kicking up, kept kicking up a fuss about, like, that's the one, when Gillis was on, I was like, oh, I'm not a bad audience member.

• 51:39Chris Williamson?

  I just have a high bar.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just folded and half laughing. I was just unbelievable.

• 51:42Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  And, yeah, the joke about Kevin Hart is so short, they're gonna have to lynch him from a bonsai tree. That's the one I was like recounting to people is the best one I'd heard that I was really excited to see on Netflix. And that's the one that everybody's like, I can't believe we fucked.

• 51:56Chris Williamson?

  You don't make jokes about lynching. Chelsea Handler said lynching's worse than rape.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Hmm. I mean, I don't know why we're doing a league table.

• 52:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 52:08Chris Williamson?

  It's not a competition.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  I think they're both bad.

• 52:10Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. It's not a competition.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  I think they're both really bad.

• 52:13Chris Williamson?

  I, it's just, it's interesting to see this fallout and to think. Ha, these people are on stage to try and achieve the same thing, like to have a good, supposedly to have a good time.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  I think that's, that's a misunderstanding people have about roasts is some people think it's like a competition and like, somebody wants to win and somebody want like.

• 52:32Chris Williamson?

  That's very American.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, but even roast battles, I'm like, this is a double act. You're like, that's how you should view it. And that's.

• 52:39Chris Williamson?

  Or a dance partner than a fight.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  It's an ensemble show and you're trying to perform for other people. You're not trying to just be mean. You're trying to say really funny things about your friends and colleagues and famous people and stuff. And I think like, yeah, I don't know. Like, I try not to get caught up in this. Like, everybody's too offended nowadays. Everybody just has too much of an opinion nowadays. It's like, oh, he didn't like it, fucking.

• 53:04Chris Williamson?

  And an infinite number of opportunities to talk about it.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:07Chris Williamson?

  And broadcasting.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone has their own little platform.

• 53:10Chris Williamson?

  And an incentive to say things.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  And it's hard to fucking not, like, you know, I'm on a podcast right now. This is a big podcast. And I could give my fucking hot take on the roast of Kevin Hart and it could be a clip and it could do well and whatever, but like, I liked it. It was a bit long. Some people didn't do great, but they're actresses, not comedians. So what the fuck do you want?

• 53:30Chris Williamson?

  There we are. That's it.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Clip it.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  You know, like there's.

• 53:36Chris Williamson?

  It's the most lukewarm take that we can have.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  So much like, so many people going, oh, you should do a post about this. You should do a cat to camera video about this. No, I've written a show that I've spent loads of time on and that's what I'm, you know?

• 53:49Chris Williamson?

  There is this, there is definitely a sense that comedians are like, uh, ammunition bullets in the chamber of one particular perspective or another, that this thing has happened and we need someone to comment on it. And we know that if we try and get someone who's too serious, it's going to come across as kind of stodgy and it doesn't really work on the internet. But we've got this guy and we think that this guy mostly agrees with us.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:13Chris Williamson?

  So if we can make him aware of this thing, we can kind of point him like a rifle and then you can, you can pull the trigger and he'll, he'll do something and that'll take down. I've been kind of obsessed with this, this idea that I heard this week of a cringe cancellation. So you can cancel somebody because they did something illegal. You can cancel somebody because they said something reprehensible or whatever it is. But there's a much more pernicious type of cancellation, which is I think what people are attempting to use comedians for, which is, I want you to make this person's brand equity so toxic to be associated with.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, wow.

• 54:45Chris Williamson?

  That they become cringe canceled.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably quite powerful as an idea. I wonder who, who would I, who, what's an example of someone who you think has been like cringe canceled? Somebody made a joke about them that was so funny.

• 55:01Chris Williamson?

  Shetty and Bartlett got close to it when you and Mike did that clip.

• 55:06Chris Williamson?

  That's the canonical example.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Wizards of Nothing?

• 55:12Chris Williamson?

  That was the one.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  That's true. That's one of my favorite.

• 55:16Chris Williamson?

  Uh, that, that went into Stella, but that's what, that's the kind of thing that I'm talking about, which is like, if, if, if, and this maybe not even it's done in advance. We're gonna try and say this thing to make it so uncool or whatever. But for the most part, like, uh, a lot of criticisms around Russell Brand. This is a, this is a two-pronged assault, right? The real cancellation, but also the cringe cancellation, which comes in because a lot of the time if someone's, uh,

• 55:43Chris Williamson?

  virtue gets chipped away at, that opens up the opportunity for, oh, maybe the momentum's slowing, which means that we can also get in there and do the, and do the cringe thing too.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:53Chris Williamson?

  But it's not always prefabricated. I'm not saying that every single time, but that these things can happen by accident. Or they can be, uh, someone can try to construct them. But either way, if you make it basically uncool.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  Embarrassing to like.

• 56:07Chris Williamson?

  To listen to someone.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:09Chris Williamson?

  That is, you know what? The, they remember the R naught number from COVID, like for every person that gets infected, however many more people. So for instance, um, the psychology of money book by Morgan Housel, my friend, for every person that buys the book, another 1.2 people buy the book.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Okay, wow.

• 56:26Chris Williamson?

  Because they, they like it so much and it's so widely applicable and managing your money is such an important thing. That the total addressable market is like eight billion people.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:36Chris Williamson?

  So they, da, da, da, da, da. So every month, I think I'm still right on this. Every month since it launched, three years ago, it sold more copies.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:44Chris Williamson?

  Which is fucking insane.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Well, that's the, that's like books. Word of mouth is like the only way to sell books.

• 56:50Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Like there's, you can, you can't put up a billboard of a book. Like nobody fucking cares.

• 56:53Chris Williamson?

  I don't care. But if you say, dude, you need to read this, or better, I bought it for you. So there it is. Money, right? Literally. Um, but if you can do the opposite of that, if you can make the R naught number less.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:07Chris Williamson?

  That for every person that sees this thing, fewer people want to be associated, you know what I mean?

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:13Chris Williamson?

  It's this sort of negative.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  I listen to Jay Shetty's podcast, so you don't have to.

• 57:20Chris Williamson?

  Well, I think, uh, uh, um, uh, Brian Callen, good friend, Fighter and the Kid, that has been on the receiving end of this. That is a real difficult spiral to come out because how do you reverse engineer someone that's having a, that, that is saying, this is not something that you should listen to. And because I'm saying that you shouldn't listen to it, fewer people want to listen to it, which means da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  That's very human. And then if you try to push back against that, it's just more cringe and more cringe and more cringe. It's a horrible sort of spiral to get yourself into. But it's like, I think it's a worry of like social isolation, isn't it?

• 57:55Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Of like, it's cringe to be into that. It's like, oh, better not.

• 57:58Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  It's like that, um, Bill Burr joke about, uh, roller skating. Do you know, he said like roller skating was massive until that one homophobic joke in the nineties. And then everybody put the roller skates in the bin. Which is what's the hardest thing about roller skating? Telling your dad you're gay.

• 58:19Chris Williamson?

  Okay. So yeah, it's like a roller skating cancellation. That's exactly what I mean.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:23Chris Williamson?

  That's precisely what I mean. But this, it can happen for anything, right? It can happen for bands. It can happen for TV stations. It can happen for.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  And overexposure is a big thing. I think for like actors as well, where people are just sick of saying somebody.

• 58:36Chris Williamson?

  Who would be an example of that? I think Nick Cage was probably not far off it at one point, but then actually went through it so far. He kind of did the full horseshoe that he full circled and came back out the other side of it.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:46Chris Williamson?

  The cringe thing. Um, The Rock actually got cringe canceled without being properly, The Rock is actually the canonical example of this. And then it seems to me like he's trying to do another, he's trying to do a, a rebrand with being edgy, swearing more, less family friendly. Uh, and the Kevin Hart roast thing.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause that was, that felt like, oh, cat's out of the bag with saying retard. The Rock said it. You know what I mean? Like The Rock is the Overton window.

• 59:15Chris Williamson?

  That's, that is exactly what my friend George said. Precisely. He's like, holy fucking shit. The Rock's there.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:22Chris Williamson?

  That is, yeah, he's as Hollywood, as Overton windowy as you can get.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know if that's a good thing.

• 59:29Chris Williamson?

  That The Rock is, The Rock is the center of culture.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that doesn't feel great. That doesn't feel like all of the generally accepted opinions are represented in an enormous sort of freak, like he is a freak, you know what I mean?

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Pisses in bottles on sat and stuff apparently.

• 59:48Chris Williamson?

  I didn't hear about that. That's interesting.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Cause he's working hard, Chris.

• 59:54Chris Williamson?

  That's what I need. That's what I need. I need one of those down here to show just how hard I'm working.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Little catheter?

• 1:00:00Chris Williamson?

  That'd be cool. That'd be cool. Yeah. Uh, I, I don't know. It, it's very surprising to think,

• 1:00:09Chris Williamson?

  how far back would you need to go for that roast to not be allowed on the internet? Three years? Four years? Maybe?

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  As in the Netflix roast allowed on the internet?

• 1:00:18Chris Williamson?

  Oh, sorry. Allowed, allowed.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  On Netflix, like broadcast.

• 1:00:21Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:00:23Chris Williamson?

  Shows how much I've seen it online.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  But then it's just cycles, isn't it? Isn't it just pendulum swinging and stuff like that? You know, if you look at the Don Rickles roasts. I mean, you'll see racist jokes. Like talk to Don Rickles.

• 1:00:37Chris Williamson?

  But I mean, you couldn't have put that out in 2020.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, people went a bit mad.

• 1:00:43Chris Williamson?

  But what, when was, at what point would that have been allowed this year? One year ago, two years ago, three years ago? Cause it wouldn't have been six years ago.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  It's probably one or two, really.

• 1:00:53Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  And I try not to like, I don't know, pay much heed.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  To that stuff, like what is allowed, what isn't allowed.

• 1:01:04Chris Williamson?

  Is that because you're purposefully not trying to be an edgelord?

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I'm purposely trying not to come across as an edgelord.

• 1:01:10Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  I'm not saying things because they're edgy. Aside from the fact that you have to say things to create tension in the room. To be a stand up comedian and like, you know, if, if you're in a topic that people aren't comfortable with, then you can get a nice laugh at the end of it. But it's not just for the sake of being edgy.

• 1:01:27Chris Williamson?

  Well, that's something everyone's talking about at the moment, which is how often are the jokes funny? And how often is it just a forbidden sentence?

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I haven't been like around America for a few weeks. Like, like there is something a little bit embarrassing about some of American comedy. Where it's like, if you have a joke that doesn't work, if you just stick a slur at the end, people will clap.

• 1:01:53Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Because they think you're like fighting this good fight to like.

• 1:01:57Chris Williamson?

  It's a right wing equivalent of we don't like that orange guy.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:02:01Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  It's all just clatter and it's all really, really boring and pandering and sort of nonsense. Like a big thing with my show that I'm touring at the minute is like, I don't think anybody. Uh, should be comfortable the whole time, but for different reasons. Like I think some people who might lean more towards the right or be more there for the edgier, dark stuff. They'll be uncomfortable because I'm like reasonably vulnerable in the middle of the show and sincere at points and talk about difficult things personally. But then the, the people who like that vulnerable narrative thematic stuff will be uncomfortable with some of the jokes that I make later on. And it's just like, yeah, you wanna stretch your audience, you don't wanna like give them what they want.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of American comedians are big into getting big rounds of applause for being saying naughty words.

• 1:02:52Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  It's like, do you know when you were like 12 and you found out what a female dog is called? And all your mates are like, oh my God, like you can say bitch, like you can call it a bitch, cause it's a bitch. That feels like what a lot of American comedy is at the minute where it's like, we're allowed to say this.

• 1:03:06Chris Williamson?

  Naughty. Naughty. I don't know what, what's happening with the, the vulnerability side, but there's definitely a performative, there's a performative element of both. There's a performative element of pushing beyond what is allowed. This is the, this is the oven window I'm gonna push on that side. But then you also create the incentive to perform in the other direction, which is to just have endless amounts of vulnerability. Uh, uh, uh, like I heard this term recently, uh, speed running relatability, someone trying to like hurry their way through.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Just trauma dumping on you.

• 1:03:37Chris Williamson?

  Getting in a, in a desperate attempt to be like, I'm a real person, let me show you how much of a real person I am.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:42Chris Williamson?

  And, uh, that also is performative and that also has the potential to be cringe. But like, when authenticity is, uh, incentivized, cause people, people seem to like that, they seem to resonate with that. What you end up with is a world of people trying to work out how to reverse engineer authenticity that genuinely looks authentic.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:04:03Chris Williamson?

  But doesn't have to be authentic. Like it doesn't have to be sincere, it just needs to appear authentic.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  It just needs to align with whatever your brand is and whatever your shtick is.

• 1:04:12Chris Williamson?

  Your Russell brand.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Whatever sort of, whatever people want to hear from you. Like, I think that's a big thing with a lot of comedy audiences, they wanna know what angle you're coming from, from the start. You know, particularly in America, I think it's like, nobody in America is American. Everybody, I'm Italian or I'm Irish or I'm this or I'm that. It's like, and then all their jokes are filtered through that lens where I sort of am slightly averse to that. Where it's like, I just tell you what I think, it's nothing to do with me being Irish. None, none of these things that define me entirely. I'm not just Irish, I'm not just autistic, I'm not just Italian, I'm fucking none of those things really like.

• 1:04:50Chris Williamson?

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• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 1:06:05Chris Williamson?

  What is it about that clip that made you so fascinated with it?

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  So what's interesting is I, so the show is called, Who Do You Think You Are, I Am? The ten pin bowler is Pete Weber, uh, who you might've seen on the internet shouting, who do you think you are, I am? And I knew when I was like working towards the show, that it was gonna be a show about identity and how people perceive me and how I perceive myself. And I just thought that was like a funny meme title for that show.

• 1:06:34Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  But as I was writing the show and performing the show, I realized that like loads of people hadn't seen the clip. Which is crazy anyway, cause in my mind it goes viral like once a month to a crazy level. And but like most people I performed to on the tour hadn't seen the video at all. So I had to like write an explanation of the video at the start of the show, which was a fucking nightmare. But like actually very fun and like exciting, like a fun bit and a fun thing to explain. And, and then as I was working on the show, I was like, oh, this is like. I think he's me, like in the show.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  Like I, I didn't sit down being like, I'm gonna write a show where I sort of, in the subtext of the show, I am this professional bowler who is like kind of my hero because of this clip. Like it just sort of became evident to me as I was talking about my experiences of that last couple of years. Of like coming across very arrogant to other people, pissing people off without realizing I was pissing them off. And then trying to refine a bit of that swagger, having like put myself in a bit of a box and avoided that for a while.

• 1:07:42Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  And like, like doing that sort of like wrestling thing and Pete Weber's a big wrestling fan of like the heel turn. Of being like, fuck you, this is like a fun thing to play with, of like staring into this gate of being like, I'm arrogant. And therefore like, you know, Pete Weber's the bad boy of bowling, which is like a very funny thing to be. Like it's a crazy thing to be the bad boy of, but so stand up comedy, like it's a very embarrassing sort of weird art form kind of. And it's like, so yeah, it just came out of it, um, naturally. And I was really annoyed cause he lives in Nashville, but he was away when I was doing my show there. And I was supposed to do my, that show about him in Nashville. And I really wanted to do it for him.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  And I don't know if he's watched it, he follows me on Instagram and I did message him, be like, oh, hey, the special came out on YouTube. And he was like, yeah, man, I'm gonna watch it this week. And he hasn't replied since, but I don't know if he just really didn't like it.

• 1:08:38Chris Williamson?

  What was the, uh, putting yourself in a box thing, like regressing back and then coming back out and interested in that?

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  So the story from that, uh, show is like, I, a clip of my podcast got screen recorded and sent around lots of comedian WhatsApp groups. Uh, where I was saying, talking about having an unexpected, having an unexpectedly good run at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And I was like, oh, people keep telling me I'm the guy this year, like it's my year to be the guy, I'm the fucking guy. And I was saying that I was finding that really stressful, I was having lots of panic attacks, like how am I gonna live up? These weren't people who'd seen the show, they just heard the buzz or whatever. And I was like, how do I live up to whatever this is?

• 1:09:16Chris Williamson?

  It's kind of the Lewis Capaldi effect.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like, oh, like I can't, I mean, on a much smaller scale, but like that kind of thing.

• 1:09:23Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  And then, so I was being made fun of, but like they cut off the podcast clip out of context where it's just me going, people keep telling me I'm the fucking guy this year. And that, and that got sent around. And then people would come up to me during the festival and be like, oh, it's the fucking guy. And I'd be like, oh, it's happening again, cause I didn't find out. I didn't find out about the WhatsApp groups until a month after. So I'd had this month of my life that I was like, this is the best month of my career so far, so exciting, really proud of what I achieved. And I had a really fun time with lots of different comedians, like it was difficult at points, but I had a really fun time.

• 1:09:58Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  And then a month later, all of that was like, oh, fuck, like everybody was making fun of me.

• 1:10:02Chris Williamson?

  The veil got lifted.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Behind my back.

• 1:10:03Chris Williamson?

  It's like my throwing water on Yasmin dream.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's that.

• 1:10:07Chris Williamson?

  I thought we were all having, I thought this was a good time.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and everybody just thought I was like a wanker, which is like truly, like if I'd been sent that clip of another comedian, I would have like ripped into them endlessly, cause it's like funny. And, and I get how it came across, but I think for fear of that happening again, there was like maybe a year and a half, two years where I like. Tried to put a lid on like, bit of the self-promotion, a bit of the like.

• 1:10:31Chris Williamson?

  Bravado.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that stuff, which I think is like part of my like, has always been part of my approach to comedy. But from doing that show and touring that show, like building that part of myself back up and being slightly less ashamed of like. Yeah, I'm like ambitious, I wanna like, like do lots of cool stuff and I, I think I can be really good at stand up comedy. And like, the reason I do stand up comedy is I think I can, I think I can be one of the best in the world at it. And I didn't have that when I was like a musician or whatever, but I felt, I felt like with stand up comedy, I was like, I'm not saying definitely, and it's all subjective, but I was like, I think I can be one of the best in the world at this. So I've kind of been working on getting my mojo back in that sense.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  And you kind of have to, cause I tell you what's hard to do without any bravado is promote a stand up comedy tour on Instagram.

• 1:11:23Chris Williamson?

  Authentically.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, to be like, hey, come see the show, it's like, it's fine.

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  It's not gonna work. And there's loads of comedians going around and go, oh, fucking hate doing this self promo stuff. And I'm like, yeah, but like.

• 1:11:36Chris Williamson?

  That's the job, I'm sorry.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  You're sort of in marketing.

• 1:11:39Chris Williamson?

  But you're also gonna be sad if you only play to a half fill theatre.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:11:43Chris Williamson?

  So like you, you, yeah, I mean, that's something else that really resonates with me. Uh, I think certainly from childhood, maybe this is working class, you know, I'm from Stockton, right? Stockton on T.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Shithole.

• 1:11:57Chris Williamson?

  It's, I, I.

• 1:12:00Chris Williamson?

  I've tried to put across just how horrendous the place is.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  It's a beautiful theatre.

• 1:12:05Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  And then everything else.

• 1:12:07Chris Williamson?

  Correct.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Is awful.

• 1:12:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you've played in Stockton.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  I've done the Ark in Stockton on T.

• 1:12:12Chris Williamson?

  I, I, I went to go and see that, what's that fucking World War One, um, play about a horse?

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  Warhorse?

• 1:12:19Chris Williamson?

  Warhorse.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  You stupid.

• 1:12:24Chris Williamson?

  It's like my dream.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  You said all of the words.

• 1:12:25Chris Williamson?

  It's like my dream again.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  You said all of the words.

• 1:12:27Chris Williamson?

  World War One play about a horse.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Sorry, that was so mean of me, but that.

• 1:12:46Chris Williamson?

  I was close.

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  What's that book about the jungle?

• 1:13:07Chris Williamson?

  Anyway, I went to go and see that in Ark, in the Ark, in Ark.

• 1:13:13Chris Williamson?

  For a good while, I don't know whether it's just a British thing, northeast of the UK, whether it is, you need an amount of charm to be able to carry off bravado or ego or like confidence. There's definitely the tall poppy thing. If don't get too big for your boots. I mean, fuck me, how many times I know Ireland's got that, like.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  Notions is what we call it. He's got notions as in you have notions that you're somebody.

• 1:13:37Chris Williamson?

  Oh.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  If you're accused of having notions, that would be a bad thing. I think I would be accused of having notions.

• 1:13:42Chris Williamson?

  Too keen, don't know your place.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's tall poppy. It's the exact same thing.

• 1:13:47Chris Williamson?

  You're right. I like that. Well, I don't like it, but you know what I mean?

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:50Chris Williamson?

  And what I learned as being an incredibly unpopular kid in school, highly undersocialized who played cricket. So like, you know, just in case I was gonna make it worse on myself.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:01Chris Williamson?

  And play cricket at a moderately high level and wear whites all the time.

• 1:14:06Chris Williamson?

  What I learned was if you really aggressively downplay what it is that you've got going on, if you don't talk about your ambitions, if you don't sound like you're too big for your boots, I think I reverse engineered that a lot of people find you more likeable in that way.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:14:22Chris Williamson?

  That they don't see you as a threat. They, it's not quite the same thing as humility. It's like, it's kind of like performative humility in a way.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  It's meekness, isn't it?

• 1:14:33Chris Williamson?

  Correct.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:34Chris Williamson?

  That's a good way to put it. Yeah.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Well, they're gonna inherit the earth according to the Bible.

• 1:14:39Chris Williamson?

  Jordan Peterson would agree.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Chris Williamson?

  And, but it's, it's not genuine meekness. It's more of fear of judgment where you're, I'm not gonna, I won't say too much. I want to do to the, you know.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  You know what changed this for me? The movie Coach Carter.

• 1:14:56Chris Williamson?

  I don't think I've ever seen that.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Brother, what is the point in talking to you? You have to have watched Coach Carter.

• 1:15:03Chris Williamson?

  I haven't. What's it about?

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  Basketball. So Samuel L. Jackson is a basketball coach.

• 1:15:07Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  In a sort of impoverished neighborhood, Richmond, the Richmond Oilers. And there's this recurring thing where he asks a player, Timo Cruz, what's your deepest fear? And he like refuses to answer and then he like just, but it keeps coming on. What's your deepest fear? What's your deepest fear? And then when Timo Cruz, I think like a family member of his gets like shot, but he's like, he turned his back on the team because he didn't want to go to class. He didn't want to do all the strict like classic sports movie stuff. Like you have to have this GPA, you have to turn up, you have to blah, blah, blah. And like be respectful, wear a tie, all that stuff. He like stormed out, but then he had like really horrible family stuff. And then he got back into the team and blah,

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  blah, blah, blah, blah. Really dramatic moment in the film. He stands up and says, our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. It's that we are powerful beyond measure.

• 1:15:58Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Isn't, it is, um, it is not our darkness, but our light that scares us the most. And it's this poem that already exists. I can't remember who it's by, but he does the whole poem. And like, like, I think at some point in my life, I was like, yeah, you know, if you shine your light, it emboldens other people to shine theirs as well.

• 1:16:16Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  And I think, yeah, it's so easy to be like that tall poppy thing. And

• 1:16:21Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  When do you think you got over that? Cause it's like, you're probably a very good example of that of like, being like, I'm gonna interview people.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Like there's a level of like, who the fuck are you and why would we watch that?

• 1:16:33Chris Williamson?

  Well, yeah, for sure. I think, to be honest, I think I'm still playing it. I'm still certainly still downplaying whenever I get asked about what's going on. Like I did this big interview with, um, for like High Life magazine, which is the British Airways thing. I did something in the Times recently. I did a bunch of others. And if you read through it, it sounds like, it sounds like a comedian, it sounds like a very, very bad comedian trying to do self-deprecating, like every single line is trying to be self-deprecating.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:58Chris Williamson?

  Because while, you know, I, I, I'm being from the northeast of the UK, I didn't have particularly big dreams anyway. So it's nice that I've surpassed them. Some shit like that. Like at every single step of the way.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  Rather than like, you have goals that you have.

• 1:17:13Chris Williamson?

  The eighth biggest, I'm the eighth biggest podcaster in the world.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Chris Williamson?

  Right? Like I just, that's something that I can.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  And also you're not done. You, you're annoyed that you're eighth.

• 1:17:20Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  You want to be seventh or like the fifth or fourth or third.

• 1:17:22Chris Williamson?

  Maybe, maybe, but like.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  That's okay. Like it's okay.

• 1:17:27Chris Williamson?

  It's certainly, it's certainly still there. It's certainly still there. And I think it gets to a point where it actually starts to seep inside of your own ambition.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:17:35Chris Williamson?

  A little bit. And you go, I'm believing my own reverse hype.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:39Chris Williamson?

  In a way.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's nothing.

• 1:17:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I'll just, I'll, I'll sort of keep it where it is. I don't want to make waves, get too big for my boots, have notions, you know, be a keynote, et cetera. And uh, like trying to work through that, I think is, is a really interesting challenge. I, I, to be honest, I, I still think it's there. Like I'm doing the thing in spite of it, not because of it.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I like, in a way, it's a good thing to keep an eye on.

• 1:18:04Chris Williamson?

  Not to have a runaway ego.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that's the sort of what the ego, the super ego, the ed, like all of those things balancing each other out. And like, you gotta keep a little bit of it in check, but you just gotta know what it is and when it's useful. When is ego useful? And when are you bragging versus being like grateful for what you've managed to achieve?

• 1:18:25Chris Williamson?

  Do you know what I think it might be? I think it might be a deep down belief that I'm so unlikable that I need to compensate for that unlikability by

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:18:36Chris Williamson?

  doing, by adding in additional upgrades to the personality, which includes not ever, well, I know that for the most part, there is a, you need to have like surplus likability to be able to have an ego.

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:18:49Chris Williamson?

  So if I don't ever display an ego, that means that the likability that I think is probably lower can be lower, which means that I'm not going to push over and accidentally cause some sort of an issue.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:18:59Chris Williamson?

  I think that that's, I think that's probably a big part of it. And uh, yeah, it's interesting, but one of the things that I certainly talk about at my live show is doing the thing in spite of not thinking that you should be able to, like doing it anyway, and being able to turn up and do the Apollo or, or, or sit down with Matthew McConaughey or, you know, whatever, whatever the fuck. Um, or turn down Donald Trump on the podcast, like to say no to opportunities too, like the.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  Do you turn down?

• 1:19:33Chris Williamson?

  Only podcaster that did last year. No, two years ago.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  I picked the right part of the manosphere. Yes. We did it. Yes. I was fucking.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  I was so, we've met twice and I'm so proud of you. That, that rocks. And I know you're like, like meek about like that. I mean, it shouldn't be a high bar to surpass to not like interview a guy that's sort of bringing in fascism, but like, nice one, man. That's fucking cool.

• 1:20:09Chris Williamson?

  It was, it was definitely a rarity to, the, the media team reached out to me after the election.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  That's made my day. I'm sorry. This is so great.

• 1:20:17Chris Williamson?

  Is it really?

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  I'm gonna put on this.

• 1:20:18Chris Williamson?

  Put the hat on. I'm gonna put this on instead. So, yeah, the media.

• 1:20:26Chris Williamson?

  The media team reached out to me and they were like, you know, that I think of all of the people that got offered it, the only one that said no was you. You are aware of that. And I was like, okay, I guess. I don't know. I didn't have, I, what, what am I gonna, I'm not gonna get anything out of that conversation was my.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:40Chris Williamson?

  I would be far more interested in speaking to him now. And I think it's far less, um, um, influential and potentially.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's not like.

• 1:20:49Chris Williamson?

  World changing or cantankerous or whatever. And there's less pressure. I was like, I don't, I don't, I'm feel like I am going to be able to do the job that is necessary, regardless of what you think about Trump. The guy is a generational communicator.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:21:04Chris Williamson?

  And in the space of 55 minutes, I'm not going to be able to, I sat down with Bernie Sanders and he was like a slippery eel. And I, I'm like, wow, this is, he's like rolling with a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt or something.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  They're unbelievable at that. They've been interviewed more times than you can even imagine.

• 1:21:19Chris Williamson?

  He's been in Congress longer than I've been alive.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:21Chris Williamson?

  So I'm like, this is an unfair fight.

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:24Chris Williamson?

  Uh, but anyway, um, saying yes to things, saying no to things, having the dreams, doing this stuff.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Chris Williamson?

  All of that, all of that. Um, but definitely is a, a good role model for, hey, you cannot believe in yourself and still make it.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:39Chris Williamson?

  Like, isn't that an incredible fucking like motivational, that you know, you've got to see it before you achieve it or whatever. It's like, hey, what about if you achieve it and you still don't see it?

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Chris Williamson?

  Because that is also a path and far more people, I think, have got, at least in the UK, have been held back by a lack of confidence than a lack of competence. It's like, hey, you're way better than you think you are. And there's a guy out there who's half as good as you with twice your confidence.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:08Chris Williamson?

  Making 10 times the progress.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:10Chris Williamson?

  Because they're just putting themselves in the right situations and going to the rooms and all the rest of the things. Uh, but yeah, you can kind of, you can just do things. You can, you can, you can just do things. And apparently that is kind of the same as believing in yourself.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  But I think you sort of have to believe in your, like inherent, like good stuff about you, but like that you will keep yourself in check.

• 1:22:32Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  You know, in, in like a way where it's like, like knowing deep down, like no, I'm like a, I'm not a bad guy. I'm not a complete narcissist or whatever. So I can step a little bit out into the world. And like, even if I push you with like everything I have to be as out there and confident as possible.

• 1:22:50Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Like, because you've got all these worries, like you're really not, it's so unlikely that you're gonna.

• 1:22:56Chris Williamson?

  Overshoot.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  Really overshoot. Yeah.

• 1:22:57Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that interesting?

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:23:00Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. It's so funny to think about, uh.

• 1:23:04Chris Williamson?

  The fear that you have of being that thing, meaning that you're almost certainly never going to be that thing. That line about like, if you're worried that you're a psychopath, you're probably not a psychopath.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I worry about that with the autism stuff. Very similar.

• 1:23:20Chris Williamson?

  Like that you've manifested your own autism.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  No, very similar set of symptoms. Sociopath versus autism.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  There's like, there's like one thing that's not the same.

• 1:23:31Chris Williamson?

  What's the thing?

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  I can't remember what it is, but it's like.

• 1:23:34Chris Williamson?

  You're perilously close to being a sociopath.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does feel.

• 1:23:36Chris Williamson?

  Do you reckon anyone's ever thought that before?

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think lots of people who aren't diagnosed with autism, before they get diagnosed with autism, they're like, like this, I'm really worried that I'm like a.

• 1:23:47Chris Williamson?

  Incorrectly pattern matched. Yeah, I'm a bad person, not that I don't.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  I don't care about other people, I don't care about whatever, like. I don't know, that authenticity thing's really difficult though as well, like, I think it's very easy for that to just make you do nothing. It's like, what do you want to do? What aligns with like who you are deep down inside? It's like, I don't know, I probably just want to sit in and like read my book. You know, like, but like what?

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  I think I have like quite bad like anxiety maybe to do with the autism stuff. So I've never been able to trust the gut thing. You know when people go like, I'll just trust your gut? I'm like, I am terrified of everything I ever do. I'm terrified to leave the house every day. I can't, my gut is not trustworthy. It's very stressy little gut. But you just have to fuck in.

• 1:24:33Chris Williamson?

  If you're trying to go from Joey Chestnut to Joey Swole, the RP Strength app is the best place to start. I've been in the gym for two decades and it wasn't until this last year that I had some of the best training sessions of my life and RP was a massive part of that. Actual scientists built this thing around the obsession to beat up their high school bullies and provide the most science-backed effective path to maximizing muscle gain. It tells you your exercises, how many sets, reps, the weights, everything. So all you have to do is show up and lift. If the RP Strength app could wipe your ass for you, probably would, and it adjusts automatically every week based on how you're actually progressing. For me, following a proper evidence-based plan has made a massive difference. And if you're serious about your training, it'll do the same for you. Right now, you can follow the exact same training plan that I use

• 1:25:18Chris Williamson?

  and get up to $50 off the RP hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below. Heading to r p strength dot com slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's r p strength dot com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. But it's interesting, I've heard you talk as well about how all of the interactions or many of the interactions that you have are kind of prefabricated. There's a response that I, before somebody asks me a question, I have an idea of what it is that I'm going to say already. And I think that is a way to not need to rely on instinct as much.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  I think because as well, my instincts are so like intense conversationally. Like I just want to ask really like difficult questions. Like I was hanging out with my uncle and he travels loads for work. Like he's all over the world doing this like big corporate thing. And I was like, we were just like half unborn chat of like, how's this person in the family? How's that person in the family? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, are you still like enjoying the travel stuff? And he was like, no, not really. And I was like, oh, okay, like, what's your? And I sort of stopped myself from going, okay, well, but how does it make you feel? Like, what are you, how can you fix that? What's this? What's that with you?

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Like, I really want to like interrogate people's like, and it's not to be like, I think they're wrong or they're doing the wrong thing and I want to pick it apart. It's like, I just want to like them to talk me through their thought process. And just so I find that so interesting, like the reasons people do things, also because there's often no reason. Like they haven't actually conceptualized that there are other options. And they might like want to do something else.

• 1:27:00Chris Williamson?

  Momentum is a fucking hell of a restrictor on that. Oh, this is what I've always done. Oh, this is what I do do or whatever.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  It's the next logical step.

• 1:27:08Chris Williamson?

  Let's keep going. Yeah, there's a cool idea of sliding versus deciding. And it's like from couples counselling stuff that you move on to the next step of the relationship. We're hanging out on an evening and then it's a situationship and then it's a relationship. And then, you know, you come over a bit and then you got a toothbrush and you got a drawer and we're kind of living together. And now there's a golden retriever and oh, we should get married. And now there's a kid and you know, you wake up with a couple of kids and a golden retriever in a house and you go, at no point did I feel like I decided to get into this. And it happens with a lot of things in life. People slide through a career. Well, you know, I, I didn't know what to do at university, so I did business. Did business studies and then, you know, I got a job at, I got a job at KPMG. KPMG is great. And then, you know, I just like, you, you, you stay here and then.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Got a promotion.

• 1:27:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  I think it's the same with comedy. Like the next logical thing for me to do is like tour, tour, tour, write another show, turn it around, get another tour on sale.

• 1:28:05Chris Williamson?

  Every year, every year, every year.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want to try and do like no stand up in 2027.

• 1:28:09Chris Williamson?

  What are you going to do instead?

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Just like write scripts, maybe write a book, like just live. You know, you've got the podcast that keeps the lights on. Build that a bit more, but like, it'd be cool to do a year of like not doing it and then really want to go back to it.

• 1:28:24Chris Williamson?

  Well, also, in order for art to imitate life, you have to live a life.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:30Chris Williamson?

  And.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  See comedians where all their stuff's about like airplanes.

• 1:28:33Chris Williamson?

  And dinners. And backstages or green rooms.

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, gotta get out in the world a little bit and.

• 1:28:38Chris Williamson?

  Live a bit. Where did the name?

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  Shit yourself at the nine 11 memorial.

• 1:28:41Chris Williamson?

  That's true. That was part of tour. That's great.

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  The name Guide to Parenting?

• 1:28:46Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  People think it was like a jab at like parenting podcasts. It truly wasn't. It was Mike and I had done like a couple of trial versions of the podcast. And we were like, okay, we're idiots. Like we are just talking absolute shit the whole time and it's all silly. And I was like, right, so we could call it Mike and Victoria's Very Stupid Podcast. And that would be like an accurate description. But surely the naming protocols should also match the vibe of the podcast, where we just name it the stupidest thing that we can think of. And we landed on Mike and Victoria's Guide to Parenting.

• 1:29:21Chris Williamson?

  Do you think many people listen hoping to find some parenting advice?

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  We get a few messages. I've put it in the children and family section of Spotify.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  So it's like in people's recommended pods, if they like are new parents, they like, they get recommended also on Spotify.

• 1:29:43Chris Williamson?

  I started, I started listening to the Manosphere version, thinking that it would educate me about what to worry, worry about for my eight-year-old son. And I was horrified at what I heard.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we just thought it was the stupidest name ever. And the joke answer is we're trying to attract an audience of young moms.

• 1:30:09Chris Williamson?

  What trouble have you guys gotten into? Has there been anything coming out with that?

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  Of like the naming thing?

• 1:30:14Chris Williamson?

  No, no, no, no, of the show generally.

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  The podcast?

• 1:30:17Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  No, I think like, look, every so often we get a little message where someone goes, oh, I didn't like that bit. I didn't like this bit. And we have like, I think we have all sorts of people listening to the podcast and I think a lot of people think it's like, guys listen to the podcast, but it's like, girls with fringes. I think there's something about like guys talking shit in like a playful, silly, fun way is a way where I think women generally, like socially are like very good communicators and talk about their feelings. There's that like kind of like hack stand-up bit of, you know, I went for a beer with my friend, we spent three hours together. I come back home and my partner goes, how's his mom? How's his work going? Is he seeing anyone?

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  And you're like, why would I know any of that stuff? And she's like, you spent three hours together, how did you not talk about that stuff? And they can connect emotionally and really like learn about each other and sort of love each other in that way. But I think men, while we're shit at that first one and I'm trying to get better at it, we're good at just abstract fucking around chat. And like silly fun chat. And I think like,

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  for some men listening to our podcast would be like, well, I can kind of just like chat to my friends and fuck around with them. And that's what this is. And that's nice when you're maybe like in a new city and you like, don't have that set up yet. But I think a lot of the women that listen to the podcast are like, they don't get those conversations from like their group of girlmates. And some, this is all generalizations and all that stuff. You know, there are some women that are like, have those conversations and have those chats or whatever. But I think like, we're providing a service that like, isn't as readily available to women in a way, which is quite, it's like, I wasn't expecting it. We weren't targeting a demographic at all, but it was like exciting.

• 1:32:01Chris Williamson?

  Do you know the basement yard?

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  I do, yeah, they're so funny.

• 1:32:04Chris Williamson?

  So Joe Santagato was there last week or something. And they did Madison Square Garden, sold that out, 90% women.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Unbelievable, isn't it? I think it's probably a similar thing.

• 1:32:18Chris Williamson?

  It's the exact same thing. It's the exact same thing. And the sound when they walked out on stage, the screams were so loud that everyone's Apple watches went off, warning people that they were in an unsafe noise environment, like some fucking Harry Styles concert.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:31Chris Williamson?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  And I think like, that's probably a shame, like, like, why women feel like they can't be stupid or silly or fun in that way, you know, they're like, I guess they've been told they're supposed to be pumped up and like responsible, maybe, and men have more freedom to fuck around.

• 1:32:48Chris Williamson?

  I definitely think when it comes to comedy podcasts, it's hard. Most of them are guy centric about guy stuff and then begin to push into an amount of edginess that deselects for a lot of that female audience, right? Especially one of the more linear paths to pod success or online content creator success is to start to skew right, if you're gonna do that sort of stuff, I think, which again deselects for a lot of the women. And it's always gonna get into some kind of orbit manosphere, manosphere adjacency stuff, which I'm aware that you brought it up earlier on, I do need to clear my name.

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  You're not in the manosphere.

• 1:33:31Chris Williamson?

  I'm not even fucking, they hate me, they hate me.

• 1:33:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I don't know, you're closer than I am.

• 1:33:38Chris Williamson?

  That's true, that's not hard, that's not hard.

• 1:33:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a little bitch.

• 1:33:43Chris Williamson?

  With your female autism.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  I'm a low T, mustached, sort of with a little earring. I get called gay on the internet every day of my whole life. I don't know, it's funny, like, it's funny, like, you, maybe, you sit in a very interesting place, I think. Like, you're not in the manosphere, but I think to some people, they would say you're like, the na, and I don't think you're guilty of any of that shit either, like, the really problematic stuff. But for some reason, like, maybe because you're like, jacked, like, is it just that you're like, in really good shape and maybe talk about it? Or like, because there's a Venn diagram of like, talking about health and fitness and mindset and like, those things, which does exist in a more problematic male media landscape.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  But I think you managed to sort of, I don't know, and on Kind Views, you're like, the narrowest end of the wedge.

• 1:34:36Chris Williamson?

  Correct, with the, the accusation I got after me and Bartlett went viral at the start of the year, was that I'm the gateway drug to the manosphere, that I'm the little pebble at the top of the avalanche. Well, yeah, you start off listening to Chris Williamson, but before you know it, you've pipelined your way into Nick Fuentes and Andrew Tate.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:55Chris Williamson?

  Despite the fact that the day after the Louis Theroux documentary came out, I managed to unite feminists and the manosphere in agreement that the worst part of the Louis Theroux documentary was him coming on my podcast. That was what they were tweeting about the next day. It wasn't about the documentary, it was about me. It was like a full half AI written.

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  Is it Louis coming on?

• 1:35:16Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, Louis coming on my podcast got me every single, most of the people who were in the documentary weren't tweeting about the documentary, they were tweeting about me platforming Louis Theroux.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:35:28Chris Williamson?

  That was, that was unacceptable, but only a couple of months before, when I'd been on Bartlett, misogynist, I got called the Lux Maxer, which I actually think is kind of a compliment. All of the newspaper articles about that were right wing manosphere misogynists, but then when I went and did Tucker Carlson's podcast, only a couple of months before that, I was accused of being riddled with blue pilled thinking and infected with feminist lies. There's a quote yesterday, literally yesterday on Twitter, the big reply that happened to like, something I put up that was like, some C.S. Lewis quote, that I thought was really like, cool and cute, and it like, talks, it's both sides of the fence about the homemaker is the ultimate career and all other careers are just built to support that one. I was like, oh, wow, this is really interesting, because it's like, both, it's supportive, it's progressive, it's reg, old school, whatever the fuck. And someone was like, more feminist bullshit.

• 1:36:13Chris Williamson?

  In fact, I answered that fucking question yesterday, like, when are you going to admit that all that you do is spew the exact feminist lies that you, that are creating the problems in the world? I'm like, I'm getting ideologically spit roasted.

• 1:36:26Speaker 01

  Because it's a difficult thing, because we, I've had like, TV producers come to my and Mike's standup shows and be like, do you ever worry that your audience are the type of audience that might be in the manosphere or might like, have some of those incel tendencies or might drift towards that Andrew Tate type of thing? And I'm like, that's really the opposite of a worry for me. Because if I, because if me and Mike can get a hold of them before Tate does, then they're not gonna become these sort of fucked up, like misogynist, violent, like abusive partners with these women, because we make fun of those guys and we're softer and we're more open and like, I think a nice thing that I try to emulate on our podcast, again,

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  not super actively, but like, is you know Mortimer and White House Gone Fishing?

• 1:37:15Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  And how like lovely they are to each other as like, older men, and they're like, say each other, I love the way they say each other's names, like, how you going, how you doing, Bob? It's just lovely, like, there's some real, yeah, male intimacy with like, in a, in a friendship that I think is represented on that. And these like, TV people were like, oh, we're just not, you know, that's, that's a bit of a worry for us. And I'm like, but someone has to talk to these people, someone has to talk to young men.

• 1:37:41Chris Williamson?

  Or else you're abandoning that to all of the influences that you have the biggest concerns about.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  And it's hard to talk about like, like, young men feeling abandoned or without feeling like you're heading towards that manosphere thing, but like, I think that's why I found that benefit from the Jordan Peters and stuff, it was someone talking to me in a way that I could understand and how I can take up a positive space in the world.

• 1:38:07Chris Williamson?

  It wasn't patronizing, it wasn't pushing you to, in a direction that you felt was unethical.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  And it wasn't telling me I was like, a piece of shit for being like, a man.

• 1:38:19Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:38:20Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I, look, I, you're right, I think it is, it is definitely an interesting, whatever middle of the Venn diagram of talking about personal development, health and fitness and, and, you know, sex differences and challenges between the sexes and birth rates and stuff like that, because I think they're important issues, but it's, the internet's really quick to pattern match, and especially if you present, yeah, maybe, could, like, fucking hell, like, you know, someone could look a little bit fruity and you're like, hmm, might be, maybe, he might, he might swing both ways. And then this is, well, he might be, you know, he could be manosphere, but then also, again, insufficiently masculine for the manosphere, because the gay accusations come thick and fast.

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  You like them coming thick and fast?

• 1:38:58Chris Williamson?

  Sorry.

• 1:39:05Chris Williamson?

  One of the things, there's this great, great article that I saw the other day about grind slop. So, this is, and I think, this is something that I've been feeling for a while, that

• 1:39:18Chris Williamson?

  1,000, you'll be episode 1,110 or something, like, a lot, right? And much of that is me, as a young man, going, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to, how to operate in the world, I'm confused about emotions and I sometimes, I sometimes have self doubt and I, I just sleep, I think I should sleep, I should probably sleep more and I should probably work out what I need to eat and I'm gonna find whoever I can get a hold of to, to, to understand that and understand myself and understand the world around me, especially as the, whatever, late adolescent onset, like, whatever the opposite of precocious development is, I'm like, in my twenties, starting to understand me. Anyway, and, but there is a, there is a degree, at least when I have the conversations where

• 1:40:03Chris Williamson?

  I'm like, a lot of the 80/20 of the development side of stuff, like, how to sleep well, what a productivity strategy looks like, this is how you should eat, this is how you should train, these are, how you meet friends in your life and all of these things, like, I think a lot of that has already been covered, if not by me, then by other people. Some, one of the reasons that I've got this studio and we've got this big table and there's, we're doing these episodes with lots of people is, I get the sense in the age of AI that just raw information dumping is probably not more of what people need, it's probably not more of what I need, I certainly want to learn about things and there'll be progress to make, but given that lots of that territory's already been covered by me and by other

• 1:40:45Chris Williamson?

  people, and I think people are feeling more alone, and I know that I, even I, as somebody that's constantly around people, have that sense too, I'm like, I, I want to listen, I just want to listen to Matt and Shane, I just want to like, have a hang and like, or I'll tune into you guys, I'll tune into like, Jacob and Jake and just listen to them talk bullshit, I just want to listen to them talk bullshit. And that's something that I'm actively sort of nudging the show in that direction, and I'm gonna lose a big chunk of the audience from doing that, because once a week, or once every couple of weeks, it's me and my friends sat around talking about whatever the fuck has happened.

• 1:41:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:21Chris Williamson?

  Having that degree of male intimacy and just having a hang and not like, it doesn't feel like homework, and when you've left, you go to, did I learn anything? I had a nice time.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:30Chris Williamson?

  I had a nice time.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:32Chris Williamson?

  And that's, it's just like an interesting pivot, and that's kind of where I'm feeling at the moment, that the grind slop, like, work until your eyes bleed thing, I don't, definitely been through that era, but I don't think that more of that is necessarily needed, so anyway, that, I don't even know what I'm saying.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  There's a lot of funny parodies of the sort of grind slop thing, is, was it named Doug Baldwin with the tiny little sunglasses?

• 1:41:56Chris Williamson?

  He was sat in that seat yesterday.

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  Yo, get pissed. Call the police.

• 1:42:03Chris Williamson?

  That's me on the floor.

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  He's so funny.

• 1:42:06Chris Williamson?

  Some of the bits that we did yesterday are fucking unbelievable.

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  He is so funny.

• 1:42:10Chris Williamson?

  You know, him and Timmy No Breaks are the partners in a lot of things.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  Oh, great. Okay, cool.

• 1:42:14Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think he's the funniest guy. They make me laugh so much.

• 1:42:17Chris Williamson?

  He was here yesterday.

• 1:42:19Speaker 01

  That's so funny.

• 1:42:19Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it was great. So, uh, but yeah, exactly, exactly that. And, um.

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  I have a little hope for AI.

• 1:42:26Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  That it really, like, that it'll put a premium on like live experiences and music gigs, people will buy tickets for them and stand up gigs, people buy tickets for them because you can't trust anything that's on your phone anymore.

• 1:42:41Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  Cause it's like, why, like, even watching the Winter Olympics, I was like, is this? I don't think, I don't think Trump competed. Like, you know, like, there's just something about it where you go like, uh, it makes me, the phone is slightly giving me the ick at the minute. Because it's like, I can't quite trust it. And I just go.

• 1:43:01Chris Williamson?

  It already was. No one was already that much of a fan of it. And now.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  No, but it's just like, even the silly fun videos aren't like, you know, like, like.

• 1:43:11Chris Williamson?

  Is this propaganda?

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Cat videos, but like cat videos were like what the internet was sort of built on. And now you can't, you don't know if it's a cat.

• 1:43:18Chris Williamson?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  Or if it's just some AI thing. So it's, I, I think being in the real world might become back in fashion.

• 1:43:25Chris Williamson?

  I think so too. I mean, nightclubs aren't, nightclubs are dying a death, right? Which was my old industry for a long time. I think it's in, one, one nightclub a week is closing down in the UK at the moment. There's not that many to be able to go through. I'm aware in the US, it'd be like fucking rounding error on the number of nightclubs we've got. You can't get away with that many. And most of them were already a bit shit. Like, you know what it is? It's when Flares closes down, that's when you know that there's a real issue.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:51Chris Williamson?

  That's their patient zero for like, they're the, they're the overton window for nightlife.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  They've weathered a lot of storms.

• 1:43:57Chris Williamson?

  They do, they have indeed. Yeah. With the light up dance floor. Uh, speaking of that, what's the most Belfast way that anyone's ever threatened you?

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  Threatened me? I mean, there's like fun, like there's a thing that's happened twice now on the tour. And this doesn't feel like a threat, but it does a little bit. There's a bit in the show where I ask if anyone's from where I'm from. And I talk about, and the, the joke is about the naming conventions of like, some people don't say Northern Ireland. Because they don't agree with the fact that it exists. Some people say the north of Ireland because they think Ireland should be one whole big thing. And that's like a big divide where Catholics would call it the north of Ireland. Protestants would call it Northern Ireland. That's like a thing. So I have jokes about that. And, uh, in those jokes, I go, oh, have you noticed I haven't named where I'm from? Cause in the first chunk of the show, I don't name where I'm from. I said Belfast, but I don't name Northern Ireland as a place.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  And I say, um, have you noticed that I haven't named it? And it happened in Newcastle upon Tyne and it happened in Philadelphia. Uh, no, it was last night in Nashville. It happened in Nashville and Newcastle where somebody shouted out the word trench. Which is the street my dad grew up on in West Belfast. Which doesn't, on the face of it, scream threat, but it's a bit like, oh. That's intense.

• 1:45:17Chris Williamson?

  How did they know that?

• 1:45:18Speaker 01

  Like their family knows my family.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  And in a show that's maybe a little bit contentious about Northern Ireland stuff, it's just a bit like, okay, noted, noted.

• 1:45:30Chris Williamson?

  Was the threat scarier in Newcastle or Nashville?

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  I would say Newcastle, that felt a bit more connected to the whole thing. Um, but it feels like I, I was reading, uh, London Falling, Patrick Radden Keefe's new book. And you know Patrick Radden Keefe? He wrote Say Nothing. Um, you should read Say Nothing. I think you'd really like it.

• 1:45:49Chris Williamson?

  Is that a hint?

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  Um, no. Shut the fuck up. Um.

• 1:45:57Speaker 01

  Um, and in it, he was talking about when he was like interviewing gangsters who were like around this murder that the book's about.

• 1:46:05Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  Um, and they would always mention like his kids' names and his like dog's name.

• 1:46:11Chris Williamson?

  It's just a little flex. We know where you're from. We know who you are.

• 1:46:13Speaker 01

  I know exactly where you're from and who you are.

• 1:46:15Chris Williamson?

  Trench.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:46:17Chris Williamson?

  Fucking hell. That, I was, I was thinking it was going to be some fun, jovial, little like strange. And in fact, it's actually a private investigator guy who knows something deep and dark about.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  But West Belfast's so small. Like I'm not from West Belfast, but my dad is.

• 1:46:32Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  But like, it's a small little world. Everybody's a funny.

• 1:46:36Chris Williamson?

  Paddy Galloway, good friend of mine, he, there's something about the entirety of Ireland.

• 1:46:43Chris Williamson?

  That seems diplomatic enough to say. The entirety of Ireland.

• 1:46:45Speaker 01

  The island of Ireland.

• 1:46:46Chris Williamson?

  The island of Ireland.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  Diplomatically.

• 1:46:49Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  Also, people are trying to spitball new names for the concept of the British Isles. Cause that claims over, over Ireland by Britain.

• 1:46:56Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  So you can't call them the British Isles. I think somebody said, uh, what if we called it the East Caribbean?

• 1:47:11Chris Williamson?

  So Paddy, Paddy was, every single person I know that's from the island of Ireland has a story where there's some sort of family drama feud thing that goes all the way back. Despite the fact that England is just as old and, and, and Scotland is just as old. I, I don't hear, I don't know anyone that's in the, in England that's got that same kind of heritage, my family and their family and this thing and the farm next door. It just, I don't know. There seems to be way more like ossification.

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  Do you think it's just rurality?

• 1:47:47Chris Williamson?

  Maybe.

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  Of like, like agricultural communities probably do, like they're more embedded in their communities and they rely on each other in their communities.

• 1:47:55Chris Williamson?

  If you're less cosmopolitan, you're moving and grooving around.

• 1:47:58Speaker 01

  And that's like a sad thing about living in a city, but I try to like be connected in a city. It's like a nice thing to try and build a community.

• 1:48:04Chris Williamson?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:04Speaker 01

  Living in North London, like, there's a lady.

• 1:48:06Chris Williamson?

  What's the community of North London like?

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  Jewish. Uh, the, uh,

• 1:48:13Speaker 01

  the, uh, there's a lady who lives in my block of flats, um, who's this old Italian lady and she feeds the foxes. So you'll just see her in the bushes every day, like throwing chicken to the foxes. Um, and if she sees one of the foxes has like mange, uh, she'll phone a fox charity, get medicine delivered, put it in the chicken.

• 1:48:34Chris Williamson?

  He's a fox lady.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  Give it to the fox. She looks after the foxes. And it means there's a real fox problem.

• 1:48:39Chris Williamson?

  Which is increasing.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  Around our block of flats because they're very well looked after by this little Italian lady. And, uh,

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  and, uh, but every so often she needs help sending a WhatsApp. So she comes up and knocks on the door and I like.

• 1:48:53Chris Williamson?

  You're fully integrated.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  It's like, no, I try to build that stuff. And like, I think it's really important. And I'm like, I'm not even doing nearly enough of it as I should, but like, I think it's a really important part of life. That's like, like not easily fixable because it's really scary to just like say hello to somebody like on the street or your neighbor or whatever. But like, it is, it's durable to build a little community for yourself.

• 1:49:15Chris Williamson?

  It's nice to be needed. It's nice that that person's got something that they need you for.

• 1:49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:19Chris Williamson?

  Because the, the worst thing would be everybody else is a solopreneur, digital nomad, Dgen, just WhatsApping their way through their day. And you go, none of us need any of us at all.

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:32Chris Williamson?

  That's not fun. What, uh, what do you think is something that Italian families do that British people would, I don't know, consider psychological warfare?

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Psychological warfare. I mean, it's maybe, so have you heard like, so Santa has become global, but it wasn't always global, like Santa Claus.

• 1:49:50Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  Um, like, you know, there was like a weird German one called like the, is it the Krampus or something? Who like eats kids? Um, if they're naughty, like that's instead of like a lump of coal, like you just get eaten by a sort of weird goblin.

• 1:50:03Chris Williamson?

  Reverse Santa Claus.

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But I think you do get nice stuff if you're good, or maybe you just avoid being eaten. But our version is I think a Labifana. And I think I fucked this up, but this is what I was told. Um, where when the wise men were looking to find Jesus, they were knocking on all the doors in Bethlehem. Cause like they look for under a star, but like, that's not a good, it's hardly Google Maps. You know what I mean? So they had the vague area that they were supposed to be in, but couldn't find him. So they were knocking on doors going, oh, we're looking for the son of God who's to be born or like who's just been born. And, uh, we're trying to find him. And basically this old lady who's like sort of an old witch type character just tells them to fuck off.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  But then when they leave, she feels bad and she's like, God, if that is like, if that is the son of God, like that's a pretty terrible thing that I've done not to help these guys sort of bestow gifts upon them. So what she does to cover her bases, she was like, I need to give a gift to the newly born son of God. But she obviously didn't know where he was. So she gave gifts to all the children in the whole area.

• 1:51:01Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  In the hope that one of those would be the newly born son of God.

• 1:51:06Chris Williamson?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  So in Belfast, growing up, we would go to like a community hall with a bouncy castle and sandwiches and all this stuff. And like have a fun day. And then we would all sit down and a lady, an old lady dressed as a witch would come in. And give us all presents.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  Isn't that fucking mad?

• 1:51:26Chris Williamson?

  Is that, was that traumatic as a nervous, slightly panicky child?

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  No, I think I, I was scared by weird things. Labifana, the witch was absolutely fine. Um, it's the, uh, what's his, um, I remember I went to Disney World when I was a child, terrified of the Little Mermaid, burst into tears.

• 1:51:46Chris Williamson?

  Of the mermaid herself or herself?

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  Like, no, the mermaid herself, like the lady, like the actress or whatever, the struggling actress who's playing the Little Mermaid at Disney World.

• 1:51:53Chris Williamson?

  Eight hours a day.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sweating and like a wig. And I think I was just like, really freaked out that she didn't have legs.

• 1:52:05Chris Williamson?

  You're overwhelmed by the fish lady.

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was just a little bit much for me.

• 1:52:09Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I remember I went, I went there as well and what was that?

• 1:52:15Chris Williamson?

  What was the elevator? You're gonna do the same thing. I'm terrified of saying the sentence with the name of the thing in it. The elevator that went up and down and that was the ride. Do you remember this? Tower of Terror. Glad that it wasn't the tower that was terrifying.

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  You were fine.

• 1:52:33Chris Williamson?

  I remember I went on that and someone's thing came loose as they fell. And there was all of this hubbub. There was a big, I mean, that's, you know, you said if you die in a plane, there's gonna be paperwork. I think there was a lot of paperwork.

• 1:52:45Speaker 01

  Well, I haven't really done roller coasters since, was it Alton Towers where somebody lost their leg?

• 1:52:50Chris Williamson?

  On Nemesis. Didn't that happen twice? Can you chat G P T? How many people got injured on Nemesis at Alton Towers?

• 1:53:00Speaker 01

  The Smiler, yeah, sixteen people.

• 1:53:03Chris Williamson?

  The Smiler. That seems.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Tough name.

• 1:53:05Chris Williamson?

  That seems ironic.

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  Tough name.

• 1:53:08Chris Williamson?

  Crash that injured sixteen, five, what was, just say, what was the one where someone lost their leg?

• 1:53:14Speaker 01

  I think it was Alton Towers, but I truly haven't been on a roller coaster since and I don't know. It's just like, I obviously know that's a possibility, but you sort of think, that'll be all right. Just check all the safety on those things. It's a great name, Bargatze joke about like.

• 1:53:29Chris Williamson?

  He's thinking of the Smiler.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  A travelling fun fair, yeah.

• 1:53:33Chris Williamson?

  Fuck me.

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  Leg amputations, two people. They must have got crazy money, five million.

• 1:53:39Chris Williamson?

  It doesn't really matter. You've lost a leg.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  How much for a leg?

• 1:53:43Chris Williamson?

  My leg?

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:47Chris Williamson?

  Fuck.

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  It's a tough conundrum, isn't it?

• 1:53:51Chris Williamson?

  I really like my leg. I like both of them equally. If you had to lose one, which one would you lose?

• 1:53:58Speaker 01

  That's, oh, that's weird because you know the way you like, you have your kicking foot, but then you like, you jump off the other one. Oh, no, which do I prefer, kicking or jumping?

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  I don't think I would be doing much jumping as like a one-legged guy.

• 1:54:13Chris Williamson?

  So how much kicking would you be doing?

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  Loads, I think. You're mostly kicking, crutch, bang. I think, yeah, I think I would keep my right leg and train for the Paralympics as a one-legged football guy.

• 1:54:25Chris Williamson?

  I think I'd keep my right leg as well. I think that's the important one. I don't know. I've been thinking about, are you left-handed by any chance? No, because that sometimes happens, right, with, I think autistic people have got.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  Oh, really? We've swapped the, as in you're right-footed and left-handed?

• 1:54:38Chris Williamson?

  No, that, there's a disproportionate number of people who are autistic that are also left-handed.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:54:44Chris Williamson?

  I think. Let's Google this one. I'm worried about the, whatever, whatever it is, water usage or whatever it is that you're concerned about.

• 1:54:53Chris Williamson?

  My left hand is essentially for show. It doesn't do anything.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Well, I had a lot, because when I was a percussionist.

• 1:54:59Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 1:54:59Speaker 01

  A lot of the focus of that sort of training.

• 1:55:02Chris Williamson?

  Just bringing the other hand up to the quality of the.

• 1:55:05Speaker 01

  Get this to stop being so fucking useless and do nearly what you can do with this. It's like basically the whole thing.

• 1:55:15Chris Williamson?

  Dude.

• 1:55:17Chris Williamson?

  Double.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:55:20Chris Williamson?

  What's, what the fuck is that word? Echo, echol, echolish?

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  Echolalia?

• 1:55:25Chris Williamson?

  Echolalia.

• 1:55:26Speaker 01

  That's when you sort of repeat words. It's sort of like audiological stems or repeat words or noises.

• 1:55:34Chris Williamson?

  So someone will repeat words or noises?

• 1:55:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, yeah, yeah, and they just sort of like get stuck in a loop. I get that sometimes. My girlfriend asks, go, hey, well.

• 1:55:44Chris Williamson?

  What was the last time that that happened?

• 1:55:46Speaker 01

  I just go like if I like the way a word sounds, either that I've said or somebody else has said, or like in a song, I'll just be like, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, indigo, and then, and she goes.

• 1:56:05Chris Williamson?

  Fuck, Vittorio Angeloni, ladies and gentlemen.

• 1:56:07Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me. This was, this was, this was really good fun.

• 1:56:10Chris Williamson?

  You were about to say actually.

• 1:56:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:56:12Chris Williamson?

  Yes, you were.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:56:12Chris Williamson?

  Yes, you.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  I was gonna say this was actively enjoying.

• 1:56:18Chris Williamson?

  Where should people go to check out everything you do?

• 1:56:20Speaker 01

  Vittorio Angeloni on Instagram. I'm a, I'm touring stand-up comedy. I don't know when this comes out, but I've got two specials on YouTube. And that's probably the best place. I always think like it's crazy after a podcast to be like, buy a ticket to see me, watch my shows on YouTube, see if you like that. And then buy a ticket if you fancy it.

• 1:56:37Chris Williamson?

  Heck yeah. Appreciate you, man. All right. Until next time, everyone.

• 1:56:39Speaker 01

  Lovely.

• 1:56:40Chris Williamson?

  Dude. Wasn't that fun?

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  Super fun.

• 1:56:44Speaker 02

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