E6 Mark's Diary - Betrayal, backstabbing and death

In this Chapter, I delve into another CEO's deep, dark diary. My first guest was Mark Stringer, CEO of Manchester based web & design agency, AHOY. Mark takes us through his tumultuous 2017 that resulted in him having to fold his business and saw him caught up in the London terror attacks.. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  I apologize. It's been two long weeks since I've uploaded this podcast and I usually upload every Sunday, so I'm sorry for that, but we're back to business as usual. Here is the good news. As I told you, I wanted to invite other CEOs onto this podcast to share their deep, dark diaries and secrets with you. And in those two weeks, I've met with two different CEOs and delved into their diaries. One of them is a 25-year-old CEO of one of the UK's fastest growing companies, tremendous company with a tremendous team. And the other is a CEO of a small agency business here in Manchester, who went through an experience that no one in business or life would wish on their worst enemy. And in today's chapter, we delve into

• 0:45Steven Bartlett?

  his diary. He emailed me and he wanted to come on this podcast to share his experience, which involves backstabbing and betrayal. And through the agency grapevine and people I knew, I already knew a little bit about his story. And from the little I knew, it was horrific. It involves the majority of his team backstabbing him, serious betrayal, mental health issues, total desperation, and a business that ends up having to fold because of it. There is so much to learn from the story and it's incredibly interesting. And just when you think things can't get any worse, this young man gets caught up in a terrorist attack in London, which changes the perception of his life and perspective of his life forever. The man in

• 1:28Steven Bartlett?

  question is called Mark Stringer and he is the CEO of Ahoy, which is a Manchester-based web and graphic design agency. Mark is an avid listener of this podcast, so he knows the score already. This is not a PR interview. And he agreed to share the full details with total honesty. I also told Mark that if he wasn't raw, honest and open, I would not share it with the world. Mark agreed, and that's exactly what he did. So without further ado, let's open Mark's diary. This is chapter six. I'm Steve Bartlett and this is the diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 2:20Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so Mark, thank you for joining me. I really, really appreciate it. You are our first ever guest on this particular podcast and I wasn't sure at first if it made sense for the format of this, it being a diary and all, to have a guest on. But considering your story and considering our previous conversations over the last couple of months, I knew that you also shared a lot of the hardships and the pains and the challenges and the unpredictable events that I shared as a CEO. And we had a conversation, I'm not sure if you'll remember, but in my office a couple of months ago, where we talked about some of the real hard

• 3:01Steven Bartlett?

  moments, that only people that run service businesses where there's such unpredictability will really be able to understand. And so I know you'd listened to this podcast and when you got in touch, I, at first I read the email and I thought, no, I don't really, not really going to do guests. But I closed the email and then reopened it. And because I remembered our conversations. And then I went over to my team and said, listen, I think this would be a great first guest on the podcast. So thank you for coming on, I appreciate it.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  I can't thank you enough. Yeah, I've been binge listening to the podcasts and it was just the honesty and the intimacy of what you were doing. And it was interesting to see just somebody so successful, being so honest about what was actually going on. So yeah, I'd been binge listening. And then when you mentioned that you'd wanted to have someone on and, you know, they couldn't come on, I thought, right, well, I'm happy to be honest. I can, I can sort of take your lead and I can do that. So yeah, and as I say, there's, there's two major things happened to me this year, which, which are now part of my story. So I thought it'd be a really good chance to come and share it.

• 4:16Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing. So the thing with this podcast, as you'll know, because we had a little bit of a chat before, is It's all about that honesty and it's not about P R or um all the other interviews you've probably ever done in your life where where there was an emot uh sort of a an agenda there, right? And same for me, it's winning business, it's talking about business or selling ourselves. And this is the has always acted as the opposite of that. This is antithesis of brand building. This is honesty and um. If this interview doesn't get to that place, then it will almost never be heard because it won't fit the format of what this is.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  It's not worth it.

• 4:53Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, this is that's the single most important thing today, but.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Just as well, we're not under your, we're not in your cupboard, are we, at your house on this one?

• 5:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, so this is the first time I've not shot at home um after two A M uh in my little washing cupboard under the stairs. Um I'm at the office in one of our in one of our studios that's being renovated. Um it is.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Although quite like the idea of just me and you sat in our pyjamas, just scratching our eyes, talking. Putting the will to rights about how tough it is running a business. That that would have been that would have been good, been interesting, but also um very suspicious.

• 5:25Steven Bartlett?

  Sure, that is true. It's ten P M, it's Wednesday, I believe. Um and without further ado, I'll get into it. So I guess the first, what I said to you is, you know, there's three types of listener that I've uncovered by doing this podcast. There's somebody who's potentially thinking about getting into business at some point. Maybe maybe they they have no interest, but they currently don't run a business. The second person is somebody that's just starting out and that's encountering those initial hurdles and obstacles. And trying to gain some sort of inspiration or motivation about how you maybe get through that and get to the point, which is where the third group of people are at, where they're running a business.

• 6:03Steven Bartlett?

  Um uh they've got teams uh and they're encountering the those kinds of challenges. So where I wanted to start is before. So what was your story before you started your business? What were you doing? Have you always been an entrepreneur?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I suppose I I got into my business because of a talent, so I was I was really good at drawing. Um, and um, I'd been given this idea at school. Uh, put in for my art G C S A a year early because it was because it was good. And then they would sort of decide what they was gonna do with me in the final year, uh, and they said, what about craft design? And I was like, what's that? I don't, you know, I don't know what that is. Um, and I started to learn what it was and I just fell totally in love with it. Um, so straight after school, did a, an N D, uh, H N D degree. And then, um, yeah, I went to work for for a few different agencies and I started to to pick up how they were run.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Um, started to learn how to manage people, that type of thing. Went and run another agency, which I set up, uh, with another another chap, uh, called Dan, Dan Clark, lovely guy. Um, but it it after a few years, we could start to see that I was becoming really ambitious. And he just wanted to to to work a certain way.

• 7:22Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Um, and he went away on holiday and when he come back, said, look, you know, I I really want to push on, I wanna advertise, I wanna take on staff. You know, I wanna work long hours.

• 7:32Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  And it was just a real mismatch there, so we we had a chat. And, um, yeah, I just, I left him with that business, all the S E O we'd done, everything I'd put into the business, I left him with that.

• 7:43Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Came away, he carried on running that, and then I went working from home.

• 7:48Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  And I was just working downstairs, uh, from my cellar and, uh, just started to slowly build up clients. I had clients knocking on the door, you know, coming coming around, um, trying to straighten up the house and things like that. And, um, yeah, just started to started to build it from there.

• 8:09Steven Bartlett?

  And so what point did your business transition from being a business in your basement to taking on staff and having an office and those kinds of things?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  I think that the big move was moving into office space. So we moved into a place in Heaton Chapel in Stockport and we had moved in with another developer, Chappco Kieran, and we started to become really busy. He'd already been doing bits of development work for me, I was doing all the design, and it just motored on. We took on a designer, we took on another developer, we got to a point where I was thinking, shit, I'm doing a lot of project management here, I don't want to be doing that. So we took on a project manager and we just slowly built the team from there and whenever there was a need, we took it on and as we got busier, we just grew it. And I always had it at the back of my mind that I wanted to have an agency that I could be

• 9:03Speaker 01

  proud of, you know, the agencies that I'd read about in the magazines. And I had that image in my head that I wanted to develop something that was not only, not only something that was money making, but something that I could be proud of, it had some kind of kudos. And it was trying to go for a certain aesthetic with what we were doing with the design, that type of thing. So I always had that in my mind and it just grew and grew from there.

• 9:31Steven Bartlett?

  And so how did you go, what's the feeling of going from, obviously I have my own answer to this, but what was the difference between being a freelancer in your basement and employing people?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  I think the big one for us was when we went from a quarter million turnover to half million turnover. And that was a, that was a big one. I remember sitting down with the accountants and they were saying, you know, what you've done is pretty impressive. And at that point, you start to think, there's something of value here. This is not just me trying to develop something that's feeding the need in me to have a certain agency. There's all of a sudden. A a a commercial drive that this has value now, I can build something that will have worth. Um further down the line and you start to think then about longer term goals.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Not just the next project, you start to think about the type of people you bring into the business, are they going to be good for the next. You know, four or five years. You start to think in terms of longer term goals and that was the real, that was the real switch moment for me. Um you have, you have the whole thing and I'm sure you've been through this in terms of like you have a client win. And all of a sudden it's a bigger accolade. And then you have that other one and it spins on from that and then all of a sudden you think this is it, it's, it's, we're off.

• 11:02Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  We're off the ground, you have those few bumps of the play and then all of a sudden you're like, right, we're, we're, you know, we're on it and then. Then all the little things crop up, little problems.

• 11:13Steven Bartlett?

  Talk to me about those problems. And also at this point, were you, um, did you have a wife and kids or?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:19Steven Bartlett?

  So you, did you start when you had a wife and kids?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it was interesting, I was wondering if you was going to mention this, because obviously you, you've been speaking in your podcast about. Relationships which, which was quite touching really, I, I thought that was, that was overly honest of you, I thought, I thought it was really interesting. And, and you saying about you was unsure whether, um, um, you, you wanted to be in a relationship or not and how you felt after it and. Um, I've been in a relationship since I was sixteen, so I met, I met my, met my wife Katie when she was fifteen, we met at school. And, um.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Having that type of relationship from a young age is quite, quite tough. Um, when we have broke off. Usually because I think we, we broke off once when I was about twenty three, twenty four. I had that kind of court life crisis.

• 12:09Steven Bartlett?

  Sure, yeah, yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Kind of what I was thinking, you know. Yeah, I've been with this same person for that much time, you know.

• 12:15Steven Bartlett?

  The cross is greener maybe over there.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, or or just not not not knowing that I'm gonna experience ever being single or meeting other people or. Uh so we had a bit of a break, got back together, um and then, uh yeah, so I'd had my first child at twenty five.

• 12:31Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Mark, um and then we had Mia, um about eighteen months later.

• 12:38Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Uh it was a conscious decision to try and keep that.

• 12:41Steven Bartlett?

  Right, yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Close together, so like if you're in nappies mode, like kind of get out of the way. So, yeah, we've so we've we've got we've got two kids. So when I. Started that, when when when I started the business, we we had, um, yeah, we had a little kid running about.

• 13:01Steven Bartlett?

  And when you're when you're operating as a freelancer, it's fairly riskless, let's say, fairly risk free.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:08Steven Bartlett?

  When you start employing people, um the bigger it gets, the harder it falls, I think is the old adage. And um you have things coming around like, you know. Payday and you have greater responsibility, you have to now make money because, you know, you have to pay your staff bills, even if your clients don't pay you. And things just get a little bit more, you know, nervous, I guess, um and higher pressure.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Ma- massively, I think you've understated that, I think, yeah.

• 13:33Steven Bartlett?

  Yes, so I'm just talking about at the start, though. I know how I know I know it gets to a more even more serious.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  So so typically, it's if you're a freelancer, you've got is a smaller mouth to feed in terms of. Um, you know, you've got operations, uh sales.

• 13:48Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  And um finance.

• 13:51Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  And then you've got, as your business gets bigger, there's a bit bigger, there's the whole culture, culture side of it.

• 13:56Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  And when you're smaller, you can focus uh very much on on operations and kind of get through your projects. And as you build a little team, um that that mouth to feed is not as big. So the stress, but it's not the stress that we know is as the team team gets bigger. And you have to really learn to handle that stress, um.

• 14:25Steven Bartlett?

  At the very start, was.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:26Steven Bartlett?

  Was what was what were the hardest things of go of of. Going from just yourself to say a team of five, what was the, what were the hardest challenges of getting from that point to that point? Or was that fairly straightforward for you?

• 14:39Speaker 01

  I think that's, I think that that sort of growth bit is quite easy.

• 14:43Steven Bartlett?

  Five to ten.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think from five to ten, then all of a sudden you start to, to get into waters where you know you've got a target that you've got to hit every month.

• 14:56Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, so.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  That's, that's the moment where it's come up to payday and you're thinking where we could get this money from.

• 15:04Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  You're feeling physically sick.

• 15:06Steven Bartlett?

  And did you, did you feel that way?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Mass, yeah, massively, massively.

• 15:11Steven Bartlett?

  Talk to me about the detail of like those moments and, and specific examples of where you knew it was payday, you knew that you, as things are, um, you didn't have enough money in the bank account to.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Well, I'll, I'll tell you what we did one day. We, we, we had a run in to, to the wages and it was like last minute, whether we'd get paid, whether we'd get that money in the bank. We got paid, got the money in the bank and we paid everyone. And typically, you know, payday, sometimes you have a few grumbles, you know, we thought we was gonna get paid in the morning and they get paid in the afternoon. Uh, and they don't realise what you're going through. And we'd, we'd paid that money out, we'd not been taking money out ourselves. And I went to the shop to go and get something to eat for myself and I had no money in the bank.

• 15:56Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  So I just paid all the wages and I didn't, I, I, I didn't have any change when we had anything and I went to the ba, went, went to go to the shop to get something to eat and I couldn't buy any lunch.

• 16:05Steven Bartlett?

  Did anybody realise, did, did any of your team realise? So how many people did you have at that point?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Um, we probably, we probably had about twelve at that point.

• 16:15Steven Bartlett?

  So you've just paid twelve people?

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Um.

• 16:17Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and then you realise that you have zero, you're like zero, you're not enough for lunch yourself.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 16:23Steven Bartlett?

  Does anybody in your team realise that?

• 16:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 16:26Steven Bartlett?

  And how do you, how do you go home? Like, how does it feel to like go home the night before, knowing that in the morning people were expecting to be paid and you didn't know how that was gonna happen?

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Um.

• 16:40Steven Bartlett?

  What's that feeling like, what's the feeling like? I can give it from my own experiences, you know, we've been there at the very start, but like, I wanna hear, this is why I'm asking the question because.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  You, you, you have the, the, the sleepless nights where you just can't get to sleep. It's, it's, people don't realise that it is always there. You, you just zone out when you're talking to family members because you're, you're thinking about, you know, next Tuesday, you know, you, you should be relaxing over the weekend and spending time with family. And you, you're thinking about Tuesday coming up, um, you know, what am I gonna do on the Monday? Is there anything I can do Sunday night? You, you're thinking what you can do in order to make sure that that money comes in, you know, that client promised to pay me. Um, you, you, you start to build up, you just, just, just, I think you've mentioned this, you just zone out. You're not, you're not, you're not typically good company.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Then you've got the nights running up to it where you're in bed and you can't sleep, you're staring at the ceiling thinking, how am I gonna make sure that this, this money's paid, it's, it's, it's looking a bit iffy.

• 17:43Steven Bartlett?

  And did you ever have to let people, let sort of people you really cared about in the business go because of that? Because you realised that, you know, you can't, you know, you need to scale back a little bit.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Um, we've, we've had periods in the business where, um, I've held out too long, so stupidly not wanting to let people go at Christmas time.

• 18:05Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  And held out and personally suffered because of, because of that. Um, not making a quick enough decision in terms of saying, in, in the early days, I think one of, one of the pinch points in terms of, in terms of running the business is that you, you make loads of mistakes, some are more costly than others. And in the early days, we had pretty poor financial control. Um, you know, now we've got, you know, and a lot of people are starting out now with Lab Zero. Uh, it's all live data, it comes in from your bank feed and it's all very, very current, you're getting your profit and loss within a week of your, your month and. Back then, we were sitting down and having meetings with our accountant every three months.

• 18:47Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Um. It was really slow getting that information, even slower than that at the start. So you've not got that really relevant information in terms of how you're doing in in the business. Um. And you're making decisions totally blind and we've got to a point where we've grown the business to a certain size. And really looking at where we were in the sales, we should we we shouldn't have been, we we were sort of higher in ahead of the curve.

• 19:14Steven Bartlett?

  Sure, yeah, and we we did exactly the same thing. And for the first year, we made a loss because we um. We scaled very, very fast and invested all our capital, but we also really had no idea how much money we were really making.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:28Steven Bartlett?

  I think that's the thing is, you see, okay, client's gonna pay me twenty grand or whatever. Okay, that means I get twenty grand. When you do the math.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:35Steven Bartlett?

  You know, you're spending thirteen, you're spending three months executing the work, whatever, which in the, including the wages, the lights, the food, the. Travel, you're actually spending like fourteen grand, let's say, to to complete the work. Because it's taken you three months, you've also got tax, VAT, all these other things. And you and then you're like, fuck, I actually made nothing. Because it also took me one month to win the business and go to London. So like, fuck, we actually only made a hundred quid there, really, you know. Gross profit and um and it and it's all very deceptive. The lights are off, as I used to refer to it, you know, you're making decisions in the dark and.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 20:10Steven Bartlett?

  Until you and it's the single most, I said, I think I said it on the podcast, the single most important thing for me and reflection. Um. And for all business owners that are thinking of hiring people and making, adding responsibility to their plate. Is don't like, make sure you've got the number, you understand the numbers, or you have, or even better, you have someone like an accountant, a CFO. That can educate you so you as an entrepreneur can just focus on the stuff you're good at. Cause I'm shit with numbers, like.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I'm dyslexic, so I I struggle a lot with things like that. Um. Um. I know what I'm doing, obviously, but but I can I can sometimes struggle to take in that information.

• 20:45Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  It's like podcasts are taking, well, I absorb that information. Sometimes when I'm reading stuff, I have to read things time and time again. It's really frustrating. Um. But another piece of advice I'd say to to to um um young people managing businesses. Um. In the early days is if if if the profit and loss, if if the, if it doesn't make sense to you in how the um. In in terms of how the accounts are are shown to you.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Question it, ask for it to be done in a different way. Um, you you know, in in terms of how our cost of sales are are done in in in our profit and loss, I always question. The accountant, I want it done one way and he wants it done the other, so always feel that you're happy to question it, there's no. Orthodox way of doing it, there's there's little hints and tips, but actually challenge it and and. And go through it, and as your business gets bigger, there's more transactions, you've got to be even um more on it in terms of making sure. You know, what's this thing we're paying for every month, why have we got that, let's get it out there. And that can be quite tough to to to be, especially if things are going well and your turnover is high.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  You can be um less scrupulous in terms of going through, yeah, about the pennies, yeah.

• 22:01Steven Bartlett?

  I said that to someone the other day, um, we have a consultant we hired. And we only pay, we pay him a nominal fee compared to the revenue, the revenues we generate. Um, and he his rebuttal to me when I cancelled his contract was, I know you're doing, say, seven figures a month, whatever. This is nothing um compared to the revenues you're making, why are you cancelling this contract? And um and and I'd said in a previous email to him when I cancelled his contract that, you know, we we are, we're a young business, we have a hundred and sixty people, etc. Um, and he rebutted me on the hundred and sixty people, and my point to him was, um, now that we have a greater headcount, in fact.

• 22:41Steven Bartlett?

  I have more responsibility, this whole thing can fall ten times harder, so I should be more concerned about every single penny.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:49Steven Bartlett?

  Than I was when there was only five, because my responsibility is now greater than ever.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:53Steven Bartlett?

  So it was a great point that he he mentioned my headcount, because it's actually the the reason why I'm now more, I care more about the pennies and.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:59Steven Bartlett?

  Going back to one of your points a second ago, um, on relationships. How has those tough times and those hard nights, those sleepless nights, the stress in it all, how is that? Undoubtedly, um, impacted your relationships with with your partner because you you've got to take it home with you. As you said, you know, I've spoken to a few entrepreneurs now and there's a consistent theme of them being in the room but being a million miles away.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 23:25Steven Bartlett?

  And and how is that for her to understand?

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Well, I I tell you what's changed a lot is that Katie works in the business now. She's the she's the finance director.

• 23:33Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Before she worked in the business, she didn't understand where I was coming from. As much as I sat down and explained, even, you know, over a glass of wine or, you know, you know, if you're away camping, you talk a little bit more.

• 23:47Steven Bartlett?

  Not not just arguments.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, not just arguments. When you really talk, because there are moments when you really talk, there's moments when you just kind of go through, go through emotions a little bit, as as our relationships do. When you're really talking, you still can't get across what it's like. And there's been moments now where, you know, she's running the finance in the business and it's particularly tough and it's a really, really tough, tough job, especially when she's had no training in it and she's kind of learning all the job. But she now really understands where I'm coming from. And and I get asked a lot, you know, you know, working with your wife, seeing her every day. And my my response is, you know, if you look to times of war, you know, talk to, you know, family members and they they couldn't see the loved ones for for a long amount of time.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  I think it's great to be able to spend that amount of time together. If you don't get on, you probably shouldn't shouldn't be together. I think it helps that I do a very different role, so I'm very sales orientated and ops ops orientated, whereas Kate's, you know, um, credit control and finance and that side of things. So it helps that there's a bit of difference there. And also Kate really still wants to do the the mum thing, so she'll go and pick the kids up. So Kate will typically start in the morning and then finish around sort of half two, three and go and pick the kids up and then do then work from home and then work from there.

• 25:04Steven Bartlett?

  So you said, um. Before she was involved in the business, she didn't really understand what it was like. So just to loop back then to try and get more of a sort of like, you know, uh, fully um appreciative answer to that question.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:17Steven Bartlett?

  What is it like? If you had to to to to summarize in a couple of sentences, what it's like being a. A CEO of a company with with staff and teams and uncertainty and all these things, what is it like? For someone that's listening, right? That's only ever watched the Social Network movie and seen Dragon's Den and has this sort of like very. Um naive perception of what being a CEO and entrepreneurs like and thinks it's all glitz, glam and jet skis. What is it like?

• 25:42Speaker 01

  It's. It's it's it's what the public sees, so they'll they can they can see and understand you've got a dream, you've got talent. You wanna create something, you're moving forward to to to to get something that you want to attain. And that's all the fluffy stuff, that's the good stuff, it's the, you know, powering forward to do do it. It the dark side is that there's a long drawn out. Um. Kind of pumping out a jet of like cortisol that's just constantly running through your body and you slowly learn to manage it. And you have moments, certainly at the start of the business, where you're having panic attacks.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  You know, you're driving the car and you just freak out, you freak, your hands are stuck around the wheel, you've you've, you know, we're kind of moving on to kind of me- mental health a little bit here, but. You you it it it causes you to suffer in certain ways, so, you know, panic attacks, I don't know, didn't didn't know. You know what a panic attack was, you don't know what it is when you first experience it. Um, and you don't tell anyone about it start at the start, you just kind of. Absorb it and then you you'll then have certain circumstances. Like my dad's has suffered with panic attacks and the first time he had a panic attack was when he was in the bath, so every time he gets in the bath. It it comes back, um, so I think that that people.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  I was often, I went to, I went to an event and someone compared it to beauty and barbed wire. So you've got all that, that kind of glamorous glitzy stuff. And then you've got the thing that, things that you have to be resilient to underneath. So you have to constantly take the knocks and people don't often talk about the knocks, whether it's a legal battle you're having with a client, whether it's an issue you're having with a staff member. Whether you are really beating yourself up over, over something you've lost or a decision you've made or whatever it is.

• 27:48Steven Bartlett?

  There's, there's great uncertainty, right? And I do, I mean uncertainty long term, but I also mean uncertainty when you wake up in the morning.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:54Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things that I've, you know, we, I learnt was that, you know, I can plan my day as much as I want.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:59Steven Bartlett?

  I can plan my week as much as I want, I can plan the month as much as I want. But I'm going to wake up one day this week and there's going to be some unexpected.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:08Steven Bartlett?

  Message which I'll get and it'll be, and it'll start with, just so you know. Or, and it'll be from one of the team telling me something that's happened, or it'll be an email saying, you know.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  And do you have that thing where you can, your brain, your skin read it, it's, it's almost, you don't read it almost. Your brain just picks up a pattern or something.

• 28:28Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  And you know it's a bad email, like just from that first bit.

• 28:31Steven Bartlett?

  So you get a preview. Like I get a preview pop up, whether it's a notification or if it's WhatsApp, you can see the, for the start of the sentence.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:38Steven Bartlett?

  Or the, you know, the subject of the email and I'll know, I'll, because you know, you've, you've done this for three years, you've probably received millions of messages in some form and I'll know the one, how the bad ones start.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:49Steven Bartlett?

  And I know, I know the little notification preview and so I'll, I, you know, I used to get a point where that would pop up and I'd get that feeling.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:55Steven Bartlett?

  In my chest of like, it's like, almost like this nervous anxiousness of the minute I see that notification because I'm like, oh no, is that another one of those ones or that's happened or.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  And I don't know if you have this thing, where I'm at now is that, so the nerves kick in.

• 29:09Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  And you, you, you get really head up and then this, this other thing kicks in, which I don't know whether.

• 29:16Steven Bartlett?

  That's the resilience, right?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  That's the resilience where you think, um, I've got this.

• 29:19Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, right.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  I've got this and you kind of pull yourself back down. And is, is that something that? Entrepreneurs and bosses have and they've got that element and that's what they are able to sort of handle it or.

• 29:31Steven Bartlett?

  No, that's definitely, in my opinion, that's definitely a learned thing because the first time those things happen. There is not that thing that kicks in necessarily and in such a composed way. It's almost like, um, you know, I've said, I don't know if I've said this on the podcast, but. Being an entrepreneur has made me much, much harder, but also so much more compassionate. It's made me like be able to be a really nice person. But also it's turned me into this kind of like cold, um, resilient rock of like a hard piece of coal. Um, and I'm able to move to both places. So I can be lovely, lovely, lovely. When talking to new members of the teams, you know, like get on my, you know, scooch down next to their desk and just talk to them about whatever, trying to be really friendly and welcoming.

• 30:15Steven Bartlett?

  And then when I get those messages, I'm able to default to my place of cold, hard rock.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:18Steven Bartlett?

  That's been through a lot of shit and knows that, you know, that this is another piece of shit to deal with.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:23Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  And is that that old cliche of, um, you know, it's more, you know, it's it's bad news. Just put the next step forward and and have your brain open to the next piece of good news that's that's gonna come. You've got to push yourself into that.

• 30:39Steven Bartlett?

  Hindsight becomes this wonderful, this wonderful thing you mustn't forget where in a moment I can remember the first time I thought I was. Myself and the business were fucked. I can remember that very clearly. I can remember how I felt and then I can also remember getting past it because I'm here. And then I can remember the second time I thought I was fucked and the business was over and we were done. And I can remember, you know, that that feeling and then I remember getting past it.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:02Steven Bartlett?

  And you do that five times and there's really no news you can break to me now where you're gonna be able to convince me that any every there's anything to worry about. I've been, you know, we've been through it all. I remember people saying to me, oh, at one point, you know, because our business started on Twitter. When Twitter dies, your business dies. Twitter virtually died.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:17Steven Bartlett?

  Amongst my generation in terms of engagement, we're fine. People said said things about this channel and we surpassed that too. So when they said to me now. I know it's not the case because I know that we get through those tough times with a certain self-belief, resilience and looking forward, not dwelling. And I said to one of my members of my team, um. About a year ago, so there's two different types of people. There's, there's one type of person where they're in a room and it's on fire. And they'll turn to you and say, the room is on fire, right? And they'll just keep saying, the room is on fire, they'll keep repeating it. And then there's a, the resilient sort of entrepreneur type that will see the room's on fire, not tell the other person. Not mention the fact that there's a fire and just focus solely on how we get out of this fucking room.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 32:00Steven Bartlett?

  And that's the difference. That's, that's how I identify a leader from someone who isn't cut out to be a leader.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:06Steven Bartlett?

  And I, and I used to say to somebody that used to work, uh, work for me, um. You need to stop mentioning the fire and you need to stop like focusing on the fire.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:15Steven Bartlett?

  And so he kept coming back to me every month and saying, Steve, Steve, I'm not looking at the fire, I'm not focusing on the fire.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:19Steven Bartlett?

  I'm just focusing on how we get out.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:21Steven Bartlett?

  So it's, um.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Now a reference, now a reference point.

• 32:23Steven Bartlett?

  But for, you know, for all these things, you know, all the hardships, all the pain and uncertainty and the anxiety and the panic attacks.

• 32:31Steven Bartlett?

  Why then? Why be an entrepreneur? What's it, because it doesn't sound, from what you've said, like it's worth it. Why not live a comfortable, super comfortable life, which is, you know, give that problem, the anxiety, the stress to another guy or girl?

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:45Steven Bartlett?

  Why, why, why be the entrepreneur?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Oh, God, it's tough that, um, because I'm.

• 32:50Steven Bartlett?

  Wouldn't it be easier?

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you must have asked yourself that question. I've asked myself that question a few times and you, you have those moments when you're down and you think. This would be easier if I just went and got a creative director role somewhere or, you know, whatever it was. But I think.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  It's, I think it's, it's, it's creating something, it's.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  It, it just feels like more of a, it, it's a more rounded challenge. So if I go and be. The best creative, creative director I can be, or the best designer that I can be. Or, or whatever that is versus doing it all off my own back and creating something and. And, and having something, some kind of legacy, whether my kids come in and manage the business or whether. We sell it and we do amazingly well or whatever happens with the business, it's, it just feels like a. More visceral project. Maybe it's because of the risk, maybe that's the whole entrepreneur thing.

• 33:49Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think you're a bit addicted to it? Addicted. Do you think you're a little bit addicted to the, the, the fluctuation, the, how much it makes you feel?

• 33:59Speaker 01

  I'm the same as you and I think a lot of people that that I seem to kick into an extra gear. When my back's to the wall, I seem to perform better when when I'm under a certain amount, certain amount of stress. Um.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  I'm addicted to it.

• 34:16Steven Bartlett?

  I feel like.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Perversely, maybe. It's like I hate pitching. I absolutely hate pitching. I absolutely hate pitching. But I'll speak to another agency owner about this and you you get addicted to the pitch, pitching and winning. But from a, it just doesn't make any business sense at all. If you can, if you can run your agents without pitching, you would be so much more profitable.

• 34:35Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Um, but it's part and parcel of of of agency life and growing and winning winning new customers. Maybe, yeah, if I'm speaking honestly, maybe I'm a little bit addicted to to the.

• 34:48Steven Bartlett?

  Cause I think I'm a little bit addicted to the fee, almost. I feel, I feel like it's a developed addiction where. The days that I feel most fulfilled are the days that, um, at the end of the day, at the end of a tough day. When I've, when things have been resolved and I've gone home and got into bed and I'm just relaxing. I feel like I'm most addicted to the relaxation after solving some tough problems.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:10Steven Bartlett?

  In a weird way, you know, the days where everything goes swimmingly and I get in bed are quite boring to me now.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:14Steven Bartlett?

  Um, and it's, as you're saying, you're right, it's kind of perverse. What, what, what I wanted to to get to then is so. You're now running this business, there's, there's ten people there, the tough times, the, you know, being, you know, feeling sick, physically sick. And when I think when I, when, when people hear you say that, they think, okay, that's an expression, but it's actually feeling genuinely.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Genuinely, the, the blood has gone from your face. You've, you are physically stopping yourself from being sick in the toilet. That, that is how. Tough things get.

• 35:47Steven Bartlett?

  How many times did that happen?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  It's definitely happened.

• 35:50Steven Bartlett?

  All the time.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  No, it's happened on three occasions.

• 35:54Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Two of those occasions were when it was close to the bone in terms of payday.

• 36:00Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Um, and when the, when the, the business had failed, failed once. I mean, we, you know, I started the business in two thousand and eight, it was the start of a recession. Wasn't, wasn't a good, wasn't a good time to, to be starting a business really. Um, so, yeah, it, it, the, the. One time was when we, when we, um, um, I thought, oh shit, this is it. We're not going to, we're not going to be able to pay wages. And the other time was when, when, when, when the business had gone down the pan a little bit and I had to let some people go. Um, and the other time was when I read through some information on something that happened in the business very recently, when, when some staff had left and it was all very underhand.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  And I remember reading through some messages that weren't meant for me. And it was all behind my back and I went, a person who was with me said, you are right, you, you are totally wiped. Blood had just totally drained from my eyes and I, I went to the toilet and I was, was sick. I wasn't nearly sick, I was, I was absolutely sick.

• 37:06Steven Bartlett?

  So, so I want to get into those two significant life events that you have, which have, um, you referenced at the start of this podcast.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:15Steven Bartlett?

  The first one, from what I understand, is the terrorist attack.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  This, that was the second one. It was the, it was the more, um, it was the more frightening one.

• 37:24Steven Bartlett?

  And so that one came after?

• 37:25Speaker 01

  That was after, yeah.

• 37:26Steven Bartlett?

  Okay. So touching then on, on that, that thing you touched on there about being sick.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:31Steven Bartlett?

  Because you discovered messages. Tell me that story. From what I understand,

• 37:38Steven Bartlett?

  a, a significant proportion of your team and your senior leadership team.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:41Steven Bartlett?

  Left abruptly and out of the blue and kind of left you in the lurch unannounced and took some of your, um, key contacts, let's say.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:51Steven Bartlett?

  With them.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  What happened was at the end of March, we'd, um, just paid wages, we'd just paid bonuses, um, things were going, uh, well in the business. We, um, I just, it was, it was a Friday, just finished a game of pool, um, talked with, with two of the other, uh, managers. And one of them said, um, uh, the other managers come in, just want to have a quick chat with you. So I said, okay, no problem. I've got friends sort of round for tea tonight, so I can hang on, but I can't wait too long. Went into the, went into the, to the meeting room. The other two managers walked in behind the other one and said, we actually all want to talk to you.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  One of those people had worked, had known for fifteen years, worked for me for five, the other two worked for me round, round the same time, and they sat down and said, we're leaving, we're taking three staff and we're setting up a competing agency. And I just had this out of body experience where

• 38:57Speaker 01

  I was thinking, this is actually happening to me now. What they've just said is, is real. This is really, really happening. It's really happening now. This is gonna, could destroy me, could totally change my life. Just, it, it went from this is a joke to this is really happening. And I remember just being stuck there and frozen and then all of a sudden thinking, right, I need to start asking some relevant questions. I need to try and work out what it is. That, you know, what questions can I ask to, to get some kind of advantage out of it?

• 39:40Steven Bartlett?

  And in that moment,

• 39:43Steven Bartlett?

  how, so how do you feel? How do you react? Because I imagine, I imagine you felt an array of things, right?

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, shock, fear and then anger. So they got to a point where they turned and said,

• 40:05Speaker 01

  you know, I'd, I'd asked some questions. Do clients know? Do, have you spoke to the staff about this? No, we know our legal obligations. So I'm thinking, all right, they've spoken to a solicitor, they're really ahead of the game on, on this than me. And they said, you know, we want this to be amicable. And I was like, amicable? What do you mean amic-, you know, amicable? This isn't, how can this be amicable? You, you, you're giving me no notice. You're taking three of my staff. You're setting up a competing agency. Now this, and I remember feeling my voice getting louder and louder and louder. And

• 40:42Speaker 01

  I had this thing where I thought I need to get out of the room because if I I'm gonna do something stupid. I started to think they could be recording this, you know, this, I am. This they've all of a sudden had time to think about it. It kind of dawned on me, they've had time to think about this and I'm just getting told this now. So your brain's trying to catch up and think, right, just get out of the room, pull yourself together and then look at what you're gonna do. So I went out of the room, I was paced up and down, um, just fuming, uh. You know, thinking, you know, what do I do? What's my next move? So. I just, I I went back in, I said, look, I can't speak to you now. I'm I'm gonna totally lose it.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  I'm worried about what I'm gonna do, um, I'm fuming. Um, I spoke to, uh, Jason, who's my cousin who who works for us as his account manager, said, told him what had happened. Cause I'd slammed the door when I walked out, um, and he was just in in shock. He's like, what? So I said, yeah, this has happened. I said, make sure you get the keys and the laptops. Um, I'm just gonna go home, pull myself together and then I'll speak to you. I went home, I was just, you know, again, being fully honest, I'd love to say I wasn't, but I was really upset. I was I was in tears. Um, I spoke to to Katie about it and she just couldn't, it just didn't compute.

• 42:06Steven Bartlett?

  How what was her reaction?

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Just shocked, just like I'd gone home and told her that, you know, I'd got. Something that was, you know, some kind of dizzy. He's just total shock. It was, she just didn't know, she could just, she's like, no. Why? No, they wouldn't, you know, why would they do that? They wouldn't do that to you.

• 42:25Steven Bartlett?

  And you've known, you've known one of them for fifteen years?

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've known one for fifteen years, um.

• 42:32Steven Bartlett?

  Has that, has that made you not trust people in the same way?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  I think.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, I suppose it's like being hurt in love. I mean, what do you do? Just all of a sudden have a cold heart and never trust anybody again. I think I'm a bit more cautious about, about how much I tell people about the business and how much maybe I, I give, but in terms of trusting people and throwing myself into it, I've got to do that. I mean, you've, you've, you, running an agency, it's, it's a person led business. You've got to have really close relationships with people and I know they all say, you know, you shouldn't have friends in business and all the rest of it. But you work, you spend a lot of time together, especially in the agency life, when you, you, you're doing more hours than you should be doing.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  And, you know, I thought, I thought there was, and maybe I've read this wrong, I thought there was love there. I thought there was, you know, a good friendship. We'd gone to events together, um, you know, gone to festivals and, um, spent a lot of time together at work and, and, and things like that. Uh, always done everything I possibly could, whether it was people being paid early or, um, helping stuff out in the personal life or one of them got injured and went and picked him up every single day. Well, he, well, he had a bad leg from, from, you know, quite, quite far out. So you, you just try and do everything you can. Um, there was, you know, profit share put forward.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  You talk about, you know, their career, you know, what, so you, you do as much, you, you, you give and do as much as you possibly can. But I think the truth is, I think the real truth is that however much you try and do, they still see you as a boss. And

• 44:26Speaker 01

  however much you're trying to change that, there's, there's either that realisation that, you know, you're being stupid, you are a boss, you've got to, you've got to live up to that. Or you try and change that. And I think I was trying to change that. I didn't want to be. I could see, I could see elements of, of the fact that I was boss like, um, and I, and I wanted to kind of want to do it. Um.

• 44:51Steven Bartlett?

  Going back to that day then.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:52Steven Bartlett?

  So the day, you know, you go home, you tell your wife what's happened, you've had your key people leave and they've taken some other, some of the other team with them.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:02Steven Bartlett?

  How'd you, what happened then from that point?

• 45:04Speaker 01

  It was even more, just to, just to let you know how sort of complicated it was. How sort of ingrained we were with each other outside of work, not only inside of work. Um, one of the manager's, um, fu- future best men was around at my house. I was going to meet him and his wife and to, you know, have a, have a drink that evening, have a bite to eat. And then, um, you know, I got in and I thought, right, well, I won't sort of, you know, try and drop this on them, but I did. So they, you know, they couldn't, they couldn't understand, they couldn't believe it and all the rest of it. And then the, the, the big shock was on the, I was upset. Um, I had a couple of people come around on the Saturday and try and help me out and understand what was going on.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  I had a competitor, a friend of mine, nearly came round and we had my accountant come round on the Saturday. They'd never been to my house before, so it was a big, big deal. All of a sudden you've got these, these people that you've kind of, kind of always seen as just your, your, your business buddies to a certain degree. All of a sudden they're rounding your house. So that's quite a, a big, big, um, message. And then on the Sunday, we, we went to the studio and started to look for evidence of wrongdoing. And I'd spoke to my solicitor and he was kind of saying, you know, look for X, Y and Z and, and this is, these are the things you can look at. The first smoking gun was that we'd seen a, um, an intellectual property release form, uh, which should have been signed by me.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  And I wasn't, wasn't aware of it for one of our clients. So that was the first thing to think, oh God, right, okay, they're, they're really at it here.

• 46:39Steven Bartlett?

  What does that mean for you, if you don't know?

• 46:41Speaker 01

  So, um, when we create something or design something for a customer, we own the IP to it. Um, it's kind of, it, it resides with us and we have to release that to a customer. So customers sometimes ask for it, but we, you know, very rarely re- release it. Um, typically we're a pretty good agency. We say, you know, once it's paid for it, we'll release it. But some customers will also ask for it. It's quite unusual though. So to see it signed on the date that they left by one of the people that left was really worrying. Um, we then found another one for another, for another, another brand, another client.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Then we got onto one of the computers and we seen that there was a we transfer, uh, thank you message saying, thank you for transferring your, transferring your files from uh, here to this new email address. And this new email address was this new agency that they'd set up. And I was kind of expected it, but was just feeling lower and lower. And then we got onto one of the machines and one of the managers had left a huge amount of evidence on there, um, in terms of messages. And when we started to read through that, that's when uh, the shock of how long it had been planned over, what they'd been doing, what they'd been saying.

• 48:06Steven Bartlett?

  How long had it been?

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Uh, three months. So it'd been planned over three months. So, so going through the details of that was just, just the, just the betrayal, just the betrayal. It, it was, it was tough to read and I knew I needed to read through it to get the evidence together to protect the, the business.

• 48:27Steven Bartlett?

  And had they said things about you personally?

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:31Steven Bartlett?

  Things that I imagine weren't very nice.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was kind of laughing and joking about how people I knew in Manchester and other business owners would, would find out about it. And it was kind of laughing around what they thought would be my demise. It was laughing around the fact that, um, you know, how the other staff would feel, um.

• 48:57Steven Bartlett?

  Those aren't, those aren't friends, are they? These aren't people that are friends. These people, if someone's laughing at your demise, that's somebody that doesn't like you. Like, they don't want their best for you. And how does it get to the point where someone that's been with you for five years or known you for fifteen years? Is laughing at your demise. I don't understand that. Like, that's, that's so tough because, you know, obviously I've got people here who I've known for five years and.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:24Steven Bartlett?

  Those people are like, they're my brothers. Like, we're, so the, the thought of, that, what would have to have happened for them to get to a point where they laughed at me?

• 49:34Speaker 01

  I think from what I can see on the messages, it's gone from, we're gonna do this to. We'll approach another staff member. We'll spend a bit of time working on our strategy. We'll start working on our branding. We'll start working on logo. We'll, we've approached these staff, this person's on board, that person's on board. Um, we'll work on the website. So in a hoay time, they're working on their new agency website. And there was, that, there was twenty seven pieces of evidence, including a, a, uh, there was six contracts with the six full-time staff.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  And, and so reading through that, i- i- it's almost like you feel stupid because you think. I, I thought there was a genuine relationship there and it was just all facade. So you feel dumb, you feel really, really dumb.

• 50:34Steven Bartlett?

  How, how could you have misread that in terms of?

• 50:42Steven Bartlett?

  In hindsight, what have you learnt about the warning signs or, um?

• 50:48Speaker 01

  It's a really, really good question and this is something that's kind of haunted me a little bit in terms of, like, were there little clues? Uh, I remember sort of noticing that one of the managers was just a little bit off. And I'd said to him, you're all right, is everything okay, do you want to have a chat? And just kind of thinking he's having a bit of a bad time in his own life. Um, just, just, just a bit worried. Or that he was worried about something at work and he would just, just always dismiss it and. The, the staff were always. Really open to coming and having a chat with me and, you know, I've had staff that have been through, um, really tough personal.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  You know, health issues and, and things like that. So always have an open door, you know, always said that you can talk to me any minute, no matter how busy I am. You know, pull me aside and for them to, for him to just kind of dismiss it a little bit. In retrospect now, I feel there was, there was a sign there.

• 51:49Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Um.

• 51:51Steven Bartlett?

  But your, your perception of the situation was so far from what was actually going on. And that as a, as a CEO, I'm trying to figure out how, how that's the case. It, it. What, where?

• 52:06Speaker 01

  It was, it was.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  It was well choreographed.

• 52:11Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  I mean, they had this thing of working with a, a black screen.

• 52:15Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  With black text if they were doing anything.

• 52:18Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  And again, in retrospect, I think I nearly, I remember him sort of switching a, something off, but you, you. You have staff like that, they might, they might have been, I don't know, you know, looking at something they shouldn't have been looking at.

• 52:31Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Um, you know, social media or whatever. So there was, there was a little element to that, but there was. They would work away that if, if I was coming in and they were in the meeting room talking about their new venture, that, that one of the other ones would. Guide me away and, uh, distract me and talk to me about, about something else, you know, if, if Mark, Mark, Mark's supposed to be coming at such, such, such a time. Take him over to the pool table and distract him because we're in there talking about such and such thing. So at that level.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, speaking honestly Steve, it's it's you you do feel stupid like how have I missed that? And you start to think other people looking in on this are gonna think nah, something was going on there. How how did he miss that? But all the other staff were in total shock. Nobody knew anything.

• 53:19Steven Bartlett?

  What what so I'm the way that I'm I've always been and I think my mum taught me this because my mum. She um she started, I don't know, probably eighteen or twenty businesses and all of them have gone bust one by one. And if you ask my mum why the business went bust, she'll say um.

• 53:38Steven Bartlett?

  She'll either blame it on the government, she does that a lot. She also spends her the other fifty percent of the time she blames it on either thieves or she blames it on NatWest. Because eight of her businesses or like uh properties got repossessed. She taught me that inadvertently, she taught me to just take the fucking like blame for everything myself. And that like and that's what we call it an internal locus of control, just always trying to look at what I did that could have been better. It's honestly what I um attribute to um being able to progress and learn from situations. When you look back, what are the things you think, do you know what, I wish I'd done that differently? Or what what areas do you think I should take the blame for that? And blame is a strong word to use, but I think.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I think I think I'm I think if you speak to other people around me, I think I'm quick to take the blame. I think I spoke to to um Matthew, one of my designers who's who's worked with me, he was the first designer that I took on, he still still works for me. And I was saying to him, you know, I think I'm to blame for some of these things. I was too and and genuinely I still do think I'm to blame for that. I was too open um about what we were doing with the business, um where we were going. Um what I was trying to do and maybe just showing them too much and give them a little bit too much control. But I always you always kind of you speak to your mentors and they say, you know, you need to kind of um look to build a business that will run without you being there.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  You know, you always push, you must have been heard that, you you you get you get that a lot, so you you push it that way. So I was undoing that and thinking, I just let I got to let go too much, you know, I was there and I was running things and. And again, typically, if if if something happens, you know, shit's at the fan, I'll go in and take the blame for it. And if, you know, something good's happened or whatever, then you'll try and, you know, not take the accolade for it, you'll you'll let one of the other guys do it. So and and Matthew had said to me, look, you've you've been really good to these people, you. You you can't take the blame for what's going on, they've just, they've just took advice. So so going back to to answer your question, I think I was I was maybe too open.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  Especially with the finance of the business and what was going on, I think, you know, we did, I think it was about ninety turnover in. In the December, um, which was, which was, you know, was kind of, you you we were we were bouncing about towards getting up to a million turnover, which is where I want to be. And I was always open and transparent and honest and I and I and I and I think there's a. There's a, there's a layer there that you shouldn't go past and I'm, and I've dropped that a little bit, I suppose, with with with with my team now. Um, you know, I don't discuss too much of what's discussed with the accountants, with the with the senior team, I'll give them enough information for them to. Push on and do what they need to do for the business, but not not the the the granular detail.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Uh, I was always warned about that from my mum and dad, you're too open, you're telling them too much. Um. My mum was was always moaning that, you know, um, she was frustrated that her, um. Employers never did enough, you know, we've got a box of chocolates at Christmas or whatever, and, you know, I'd stick money in a card for for my team and. Always try and do as much as a, as much as I possibly can. So I think cer- certainly with that respect, that's that's definitely one element, just being too transparent, being being being too open.

• 57:02Steven Bartlett?

  So, look, for this, in the interest of fairness, I'd love those individuals, I think there was six of them, right, six of them. I'd love them to be here because you kind of want to get the perspective, right, like. And I'm sure as hell they'll have a different perspective on the situation, as every human being in the world would in any situation. And they would have seen it from a different light. They, um, the individuals that left, they spoke to prolific North, didn't they?

• 57:28Speaker 01

  They did, yeah.

• 57:29Steven Bartlett?

  Did you read what they what they said?

• 57:30Speaker 01

  I did.

• 57:31Steven Bartlett?

  Am I okay to read it?

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 57:33Steven Bartlett?

  Is that okay?

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:34Steven Bartlett?

  Because I wanna, I wanna get your take on this.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:36Steven Bartlett?

  They said, um, we were informed at the end of January of Mark's intentions to put the company into administration, followed by a two-month absence of both OJ directors, which is referring to yourself and another person, I'm presuming. We decided to be proactive and set up this new agency, um, so we could fully utilise our skills and the things we'd learnt, essentially. We were conscious of our own reputations, particularly, um, with this not being the first time yourself had entered the company into, into the posi- position of administration, um, and, and that's essentially what the, what the statement says.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:05Steven Bartlett?

  Um, what's your response to that? Because that's what the first thing I read when, you know.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  So ju- to, to be clear on this, I was given a call the night before that went live. And, and they said, we're gonna run this story.

• 58:19Steven Bartlett?

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  And I said, you know, please don't run the story. We've been through enough, you know, don't, don't run the story, it's, it's gonna kill us. Um, and I was told, you know, profit and offence being good, they said, look, really, so I've got, got to run it, we're gutted, but they run it. So we checked what I was gonna write with my solicitor. And then we got that response and I was fuming because, um, we disappeared for two months. We had work going on at home, so I wasn't in as much as I would normally be.

• 58:44Steven Bartlett?

  Talk to me about that, because we, from, from my own perspective, I want to, because you can imagine that my business is at a point where, uh, it's big and I'm, I'm required to be all over and, you know, this month alone, I've got, uh, sixteen speaking appointments in different places. So, you know, with travelling, all things considered, I'm here five days this month.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 59:03Steven Bartlett?

  So when I, one of the things, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is to understand, um, if that was part of the reason, if absence and not being, because you've got these two things that are at play, you've got like, something went on that you didn't see.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 59:16Steven Bartlett?

  When the question becomes, why didn't you see it? And then, you know, you, you say that you were, you were out. I wanna make sure from a personal standpoint that I'm not, like, this is a very selfish, like, I'm not, I'm just trying to figure out that I'm not out too much, but something similar to take place where I lose touch.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Well, stepping back into a bigger picture, it's, so one of the key things that I wanted to do with running the business was to make sure that I didn't take.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Drastic sacrifices that I would really deeply regret as I got older.

• 59:47Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  So trying to spend a bit more time with family.

• 59:49Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  So my big thing was that I didn't really want to take any other holidays, but in August, when things went a little bit quiet with decision makers in the business. And my dream was to take four weeks off and we'd do the like camping with the family. And I did that four years every August and it was great because each time I went away, there was mistakes that were made. But then I would come back and we'd talk them through through the team. Um, so there were things that we missed out on while I was away that could have took the business forward, but in general. Um, we'd go away, I spent time with family, I wouldn't regret that as I got older. And it was a good time of year when uh decision makers away and all that type of thing.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Um, Katie had asked me, God knows how many times, must be over twelve years, uh you know, we've had the same kitchen in the house. Can we have a new kitchen, can we have a new kitchen next year, next year, always always put it off. And we we'd start to talk about the fact that uh we'd do it. So I said, we'll do it as long as it's on a on a low budget and I don't want it to affect it. So we'll sell one of the cars, we'll do the kitchen, Kate's brother was doing it on the cheap, he had a mate who could supply the granite, who who. So we we did it on um, we did it on the cheap and um, yeah, so I was spending a bit more time doing that, but.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  To say I wasn't in the business, I mean, we did uh prolific North Live, you know, I I did that, helped, I put the stand up myself and stood on there for two days. We did um, we did a restaurant and bar show and again, helped that set that up. Um, it wasn't on the stand, but you know, so I was, I was there and I was on emails and I was in in the business, I was turning up and going, you know, I'd turn up and have like. Stuff that I've, you know, I've been painting at home or I paint on my jeans or whatever. Um, so to say I disappeared is is this this the the, I had a chance to respond to prolific North.

• 1:01:47Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  And I looked at that and I thought, I'm not getting into that.

• 1:01:51Steven Bartlett?

  Because you're just going to go back and forth and back and.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  It was backwards and forwards and.

• 1:01:54Steven Bartlett?

  It's almost beside the point a little bit, you know, in some respects, it's not, you know, you being absent isn't necessarily a good enough reason for. Uh, you know, I can see why it happened, but it doesn't really justify their actions, like it's not, but from my perspective, um. I, as a CEO, you're just conditioned for the buck to stop with you.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:16Steven Bartlett?

  So, and that, and the blame and the, the, everything stops with me because also as a CEO, you end up getting all the credit as well.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:23Steven Bartlett?

  I just, I take both in equal measure and um.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:02:26Steven Bartlett?

  I, I wondered if upon hindsight, you regret not being there more through that period. If that's the first thing they cited in this response to prolific north. Makes me think it was one of the key things, the reasons why they were able to ga- gather.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Well, well, you know, to, to be fair to them, you could say that was part of it, but it doesn't add up. You know, it, it, it was three months planning.

• 1:02:51Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  So it, it doesn't even add up.

• 1:02:53Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  It was, it was, they started this in, uh, start of January.

• 1:02:57Steven Bartlett?

  What, what, what, what do you think it is then? Do you think it's bad people? Do you think, do you, do you think they were?

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  No, I don't, I don't think, I don't think the bad people, I think they've just made a really bad decision with, with, with what they were doing. Um. I don't, I don't think they're bad people, I just think they've made a rash, really rash decision. I think they've, they've got caught up in, we could start a power on business. Okay, well, I can kind of compare it to like kids in a sweet shop and the, and the sweet shop owner's gone out. And you know, you shouldn't have put your sweets in your pocket, but you think, right, okay, well, we'll do this, right? Well, we'll take a couple of staff because recruiting people, so we'll get, you know, some of the staff and, and take them. And then, right, well, we won't take one, we'll take two, we'll take two, we'll take three. And before you know it.

• 1:03:44Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  You're trying to build up your stepping stone.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  And you've kind of just gone over, but you've kind of lost yourself.

• 1:03:52Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think, do you think if they had a closer bond to you or the company or to the vision or why they were there, they would have done that?

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I think, I think it's a case of.

• 1:04:05Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think they were, they were engaged with the company? They're engaged with, they were, they had a relationship, a strong relationship with you?

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm a sort of really strong relationship, very strong relationship. But I don't think that was the issue. I think it was. They've, they've had ambition about what they wanna do and it's just overridden everything else.

• 1:04:27Steven Bartlett?

  How, the, the, the, I think I'm trying to understand as well is how they managed to gain that like consensus to do that? Because I, you know, and I just, every time I ask these questions, I'm thinking about it from my own perspective. I'm like, how, what would have to have happened? For any six people here to get to a point where they come to me one day and they say, Steve, by like all six of us are leaving.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:04:48Steven Bartlett?

  We're starting a new business. And I think, okay, I probably, the first thing was, I, in my head, I'm like. I wouldn't have been here for a couple of months, like a while, I would go to New York and they see me like, I don't know, on jet skis around. Mad, you know, in the harbour, flying around and they think, well, we're working here while he's off on jet skis.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:05:04Steven Bartlett?

  Second thing is, I'm like, okay, even if I was here, they get really disillusioned about why we're here. They don't really like being here.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:05:13Steven Bartlett?

  The third thing is, okay, one of the points you touched on where you've shared so much. And the affinity to the company and what we're doing here is quite weak. So they think, do you know what? We can actually do this ourselves. Um, and make something better than what we're.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, yeah, that's it. It's, it's, uh, cause I can imagine I've thought about this a lot.

• 1:05:33Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  It, from, from what I can see is they thought, we can do this. We've learnt now. We can do this and we can maybe do it in a different way.

• 1:05:42Steven Bartlett?

  Uh huh.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Um, and.

• 1:05:45Steven Bartlett?

  What about their regard for you though as a person? Do they not, what do you, what do you think their, their feelings are to you? Do they? Do they just not care about your position? Were they remorseful at all?

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Messages aside, because they weren't meant for my eyes. I think it was a bit of lad culture, bravado. Kind of, you know, all in the messages, kind of.

• 1:06:07Steven Bartlett?

  Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  So, uh, first, on first sight of that, you'd take that, you know, that hurts.

• 1:06:14Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  It really hurts. But then you take a step back and go, look, it was a frame of mind. You've got to take a bit of context with it. It's the excitement of we're setting this up and we're going to do things different. Yeah, exactly. So I don't, I don't sort of hold that against them in any way. And so I, I, I think, I think, I think that kind of, that kind of het up. And, and I think there was, I think there was respect for me and I.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  And, and I, I would think that they'll probably have moments when they're not around each other. Where they think, they'll, they'll look at themselves in a mirror or they'll have a moment where they think about and think. Pretty bad what we did to him there. You know, we, we left, we left him iron dry. That could have been. The end of Ahoy, that could be, been the end of his career, which we could have done that differently.

• 1:07:08Steven Bartlett?

  And was that the end of your career?

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Um, no, I'm still here.

• 1:07:12Steven Bartlett?

  So talk to me about that, talk to me about that transition out of that then. So that happens to you, you go through that. You then, you put the company to administration to recover the assets essentially, so you can keep the brand.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  So we had legal fees going up.

• 1:07:27Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Um, really high. We had a really good legal team. We, the reason we defended our position was because there was such an abundance of evidence. And we wanted to try and protect them taking clients or. Um, you know, for instance, one of the pieces of evidence that come forward is that they'd put a credentials pack together for this new. Brand that they created and they'd used assets from, from Ahoy. So they'd used their own. Pictures and in this credentials pack, who we've worked with, it was all the logos that we'd used. It was to a customer that had inquired to Ahoy. So it looked like they'd scooped, um, uh, an inquiry away from it.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  So without going into all those details, because it's not really quite painting the picture. I'm trying to not go into that.

• 1:08:14Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  You, you, you, you. You look at that and think, right, okay, that's, how far is this gonna go?

• 1:08:24Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  I've got, I've got to protect it somewhere. For, for a start, the IP, the intellectual property of what they've created i- in a hoay time actually belongs to me. So they're using something that belongs, belongs to a hoay. So that was something that we did protect and they had to change their brand.

• 1:08:40Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  Um, which, which will have been a massive inconvenience for them. Um, but hey, the brand, they're just creating a, creating a brand and off you go.

• 1:08:49Steven Bartlett?

  So tell us a bit about that process out of that.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  So, so, so we, uh, we, we then went through the evidence. That was just tough. You know, going through evidence until five o'clock in the morning and pulling stuff together for the, for the solicitors and then going to a meeting in Liverpool or whatever. It's just a massive, massive drain, you know, going through, through such a, a, a wealth of it and uh, lots of backers and forwards with the solicitors. And knowing that this is gonna be in the High Court in Manchester, we've got a barrister booked and we, we, we got to a point where we, we had our, our, um, barrister booked, everything was set, the date was set. And then their solicitor came back and said, you know, we, we, um,

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  we don't wanna move forward, we need more time. So at that, at that junction, we said, right, we're, we're gonna give you more time, but we want, um, uh, uh, like an affidavit. So it's like a sworn oath of what had happened. So they signed this oath in order for us to give them more time and they admitted the clients they'd met, you know, files they'd taken. Basically, a, a lot of the things that they've done, yeah. So, um, and at that time, we've got clients that are saying, um, you know, we don't wanna be involved in this tiff. We can't place the work with you, we've not got the confidence. And we worked out, we lost about hundred and sixty, hundred and seventy grands worth of, of work. So I've got costs going up.

• 1:10:19Steven Bartlett?

  Um. Revenue's going down.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  We, we had tax repayments that we were, that we were paying through a voluntary agreement. So I'm, I'm paying off tax every month, which we've, which we've been paying. I've got costs going up, I've got income going down and I've got, not got a crystal ball, don't know which way this is gonna go. So I sat down and spoke to, to um, someone, someone I know who's advising me and he just said, you know, you might have to look at um, a possible administration.

• 1:10:49Steven Bartlett?

  So you do that?

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you continue the administration. Then the, the story, I got told the story would come out in, in Plymouth North and just, just couldn't believe, just couldn't believe it. I was just kind of bracing myself for it. The next day I was then going to um, London because me, me daughter um, had a, an audition down there, acting audition. And my phone just wouldn't stop going. It was on the, on the train to, to London. You know, it's like when you're trying to go on your train to London, you can never get reception. It was just, oh, it was just. I remember just sweating profusely, just sweating and trying to not show that I was stressed to, to my daughter Mia and.

• 1:11:30Steven Bartlett?

  What was the response like when, when everybody, when the agency world found out that that had happened?

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  It was supportive. Um, I'd had a lot, lot of people get in touch and say, um, keep going, don't give up. Um, and there was, I think there was, there was a lot of, you know, bad mouthing them to a certain degree, but it was, it was nice to get the messages to say, you know, you'll get through this, keep going, that type of thing. So it was, it was.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  It was moving really because some of these peo-, some of these agency owners I'd never spoke to, some had really good relationships, some had different networking events and things like that. So that was, that was really nice to kind of, to get those, to get those messages. Um, so yeah, it was, it was, it was nice.

• 1:12:21Steven Bartlett?

  And then you end up, you know, re sort of, you know, bringing Ahoi back to life. You, you know, restarted it now, running again, you're serving clients again.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we've, we, we had to rehire managers, um, get on really well with, with those people now. Um, it's really positive. We've, it's a smaller team, so it's a little bit more manageable, not a big amount to, to feed, less stress. Um, we have our existing clients, so they, they got a couple of clients, uh, and we've got other clients that we're still working with. We've, we've won new pitches and new clients and it's, it's positive. We moved into a new office. So I'm not trying to say, you know, everything's sunshine and rainbows, but, you know, it still, it still hurts what, what happened and. You know, I have moments where, you know, I found out one of them was having a baby, you know, and I thought it would have been nice to wish him well and.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  I kind of really, deep down, hoped that I could probably speak to them at some point in the future, but.

• 1:13:25Steven Bartlett?

  And would you.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  It's just a bit raw at the minute.

• 1:13:27Steven Bartlett?

  Would you, do you think you're gonna get to a point where you can forgive them and.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:13:32Steven Bartlett?

  Move on. Because someone once said to me, and I think I've said this in my podcast, that, and it always stayed with me the day that someone said it, they said, forgiveness is letting a prisoner go. And as they run off into the distance, realising that you were the prisoner the whole time.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  God, yeah.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  What you, what's not healthy is just having that.

• 1:13:55Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  Anger. And as, as time moves on, that gets easier. Um, you know, having those moments where you're laying in bed thinking, how can those people do that to me? I've had loads of people say, how did you get out of that room? How did you get out of that room without fighting or, you know, smashing something or whatever? Um. So, so you, you, I think, I think you're right. I think you've, you've got to forgive, but. They might feel, you know, what, what's there to forgive? We went and set up our own, and we took a few of your stuff.

• 1:14:25Steven Bartlett?

  Um. That's fine, but it's not for them, is it? That's, that's what forgiveness is.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:29Steven Bartlett?

  I've learned forgiveness is all about. It's for you.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  It's for you.

• 1:14:32Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, and you, you know, it's for your daughter and it's for your family, it's for your sanity and your mind and. You've just got to, you know, people do you wrong, that's guaranteed.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:40Steven Bartlett?

  Your reaction to those situations isn't, and you can, that's the thing you have power over now.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:45Steven Bartlett?

  You can't change the past, but you can certainly, um, make your future much more pleasant by just letting it go. And.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Steven Bartlett?

  And, and I think you'll find total peace in that.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, the, the peace that you haven't got, you know, the only reason you wouldn't have peace now is because you're still holding it a little bit, or there's resentment or, yeah. And it's, and that's also like rising above them, you know, that's like, that's a classy thing to do in my mind, you know.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  I think I've tried to.

• 1:15:08Steven Bartlett?

  And it's not.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  You're only human, you're only human. I know, you know, the, the, the, the, the. To let it go will be a lot easier and I'll be able to move on. And I've tried to do that and I think I have done that. Um, it's, it's better, you know, we've said in the agency, we just, we just not talk, we won't talk about it. You know, I, I sort of, you know, try not to look at what they're doing on social media. And again, just being totally honest, you do keep an eye on what they're doing. Yeah, it's like an X, it's like flicking.

• 1:15:35Steven Bartlett?

  Become a creep.

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  Oh, they got that or whatever, it's, you know, but, but.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  I think for me, the, what happened with the terrorist attack thing, it really helped bring home just.

• 1:15:48Steven Bartlett?

  Perspective.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  Perspective, yeah.

• 1:15:49Steven Bartlett?

  Talk to me about.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Massively.

• 1:15:50Steven Bartlett?

  Talk to me about the terrorist attack then, what was, what's, what happened there?

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, this is a bit more difficult to talk about. Uh, so.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I got, I got news of what happened in prolific north, the story breaking, and then I had seen their response, which was, I was really gutted about. I decided to not do, not do a response and call them out on a few things. I just thought, just leave it. Um, got into London, uh, we went and had a, um, a night out and then. On the Saturday, we went to Mia's audition and then in the evening, we were just looking for a pub. Uh, cause the Champions League final was on and I'd said, oh, this, this, this pub, uh, there's a bit of a beer garden at the back, sort of. It's quite closed, you know, kids can kind of sort of, you know, mill about there if they don't want to sit up on stairs and watch the football. We'll go and watch the footy, footy finished.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  And then we were just about to leave and they'd made a mistake with our nachos. Nachos saved our life. Um, and so they said, well, I'll get you another round of drinks, just as an apology. I was like, no, no, don't be daft, it's fine. No, these things happen. No, no, please let me get you another round of drinks. Yeah, okay, no worries, get us another round of drinks. We had another round of drinks and then I stood up to put my jacket on. And, uh, uh, we were on the first floor and I looked out into the beer garden and there was a, a lady lay on the floor with, with about. Six people around her, just trying to sort of retust her and think, oh, she must have choked or had a heart attack, something like that. Uh, it turns out that was the Australian lady that had a throat slit and died. And then again, unbeknown, there was a lady that had been stabbed in the neck downstairs

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  in the pub. We went downstairs and on to, um, uh, underneath, uh, the, the, the bridge where the attack happened. And it was just chaos. There's people screaming, shouting, and the bouncer was come behind, he's like, you know, you're either in or you're out. Get out of here. It was like, didn't know what to do. Um, the family that was with, there was, um, uh, uh, Gordon Leslie and their two daughters. They went up onto the bridge and we turned left towards Borough Market. And, um, Gordon phoned me, said, this just can't, it's on the bridge, it's, there's people dead, there's people screaming, there's blood everywhere. Um, you need, there's a terrorist attack going on, you need to get home. So I was saying, right, well, what are you gonna do? You're gonna carry on across the bridge, you're gonna come back?

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  He says, no, I'll, I'll get to the hotel. So I said, right, well, you, you just get to safety, we'll get to safety and I'll phone you, phone you when we're there. So we carried on, um, sort of past, well, we, so the, the, just to let you know, the pub we were in, the terrorist attack happened, they crashed into, um, Borough and Banker Bar, whatever it was. We were in the pub behind it, um, and the, the cathedral, the terrorists had, had, had run around the back of the cathedral and towards Borough Market and unbeknownst to us, we were walking or running behind them. And we got into sort of the, the main bit where the, the main market is and we could see a lot going on. So we were trying to sort of see if we could get in anywhere, just to get off the street.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Just, you had that kind of sense of, doesn't feel safe, ju- just, you know, it's sort of, is it, you know, uh, uh, how many people are there? How many people on the street? We didn't know. Couldn't get in any of the doors, every, just nobody let you in, any of the restaurants, because everyone was scared and locked inside and maybe it's because I've got a beard. Looked like a terrorist attacker. So we, we, um, to cut the story short, we, we got into this side entrance, got into the restaurant, stayed there, um, and just sat there and there was just this fear of...

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Do we stay here or are we sitting ducks? Could a gun be shot through the window or could an explosion happen? And then, sorry, before we went to the restaurant, the police had turned up and there's three policemen got out with machine guns, rifles, whatever, automatic weapons. And then I knew it was like bad and then we hid in the restaurant. And you're just there checking your phone. I'd never seen my daughter or wife so scared. It was just, I can vividly remember it now, just sort of thinking back. And everyone was really scared, sat in the restaurant. You didn't know what to do. And I remember thinking, well, there's a knife there in the kitchen. I could protect myself with that.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  There were situations where people were opening the side door and then some people were saying, shut it. And then someone had locked it, but there was no key. So if they come in the front, are we going to get out the back? Just a mishmash of like what's gonna, like this, this decision now could be us alive or dead. You know, you're thinking, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do? And it was just horrendous. There was a lady there that couldn't stand, just stress or what, but she was just like leaning against the wall, got something to sit on. And everyone was just, just really scared, huddled. And there was just shots outside, police running past. Then eventually the, the police came in and they're screaming, shouting, you know,

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  hands on heads and everything. And that's a sort of tactic that they, that they use. And then we went out again at the back, around the back of the cathedral. And we couldn't go right towards our hotel. We found out our hotel was, was being used as a makeshift hospital. And we had to go left over the bridge. And again, seeing everything that had happened, was worried about what my daughter would, would see. And just, just scared. And then we got, got to the other side of the bridge and we'd seen everything that happened. And then it was just this fear of we're on the streets still.

• 1:21:32Steven Bartlett?

  And, and that whole incident, how, what impact has, what lasting impact has that had on you? Because I know Dom, co-founder of Social Train, he um, he was in Paris on the first night when the the attacks happened in the fu- outside the football stadium.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Steven Bartlett?

  And in all the coffee shops. So he, he again was stranded out in the streets and he kind of, he's ch- it's changed him in many ways, I think. He's also got a fear of certain situations eh.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58Steven Bartlett?

  To a degree.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  My son didn't go to London because of what had happened in the Manchester attack. And he was also scared because we'd been to Old Trafford and when the fake bomb scare happened and that was, we've like, we nearly got crushed and it was, that was, that was bad. So he's i- i- in his mind, he just didn't want to go. We were like, oh, be fine, be absolutely fine. Um, and there's just certain situations where like the s- the the market's opened in Manchester. The thing I think straight away is, you know, what if there's an attack there?

• 1:22:35Steven Bartlett?

  Uh huh.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Um. It's just on your mind. It's just always on your mind. You just see see situations differently and um, there might be something that. Flags up, you might see a certain, certain type of top that someone was wearing that you remember when they were there. Um, or a certain noise, or it just, it's, it's always, it's always there at the back, the back of your mind. The toughest thing is. Deal- dealing with the serendipity of it. It freaks you out. You know, what if, what if he'd not forgot those nachos? Uh, how would I have dealt with being on the street with three men with knives wrapped around the, you know?

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Uh, who, what could he have done? Could he have, would I have just took, took the blows and and got my wife and daughter to run away? You know, Gordon um, was, was, had got really upset at one point because he was thinking if I had to jump off the bridge. Again, if the nacho, the, the, he would have been on the bridge as the, as the van was coming down the bridge. And if I had to jump over into the water, could he have tread water with, he was, he was swimming in the pool and he just, he just got really upset, just. This cycle of thought had gone through his head, what if? And he just couldn't get out of the loop. You know, which would he have saved? His wife or which daughter or how would?

• 1:23:58Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  He'd been able to do, do that. It just really freaks you out.

• 1:24:01Steven Bartlett?

  And.

• 1:24:03Steven Bartlett?

  Uh yeah, it was one of those experiences, I imagine, that you can only really appreciate if you were there as well and you go through it.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:10Steven Bartlett?

  So, to conclude then.

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  It's, it's hard to, to be honest, Steve, it's, it's easy to tell you the facts of what happened. It's a, that one is a bit more difficult to kind of tell you.

• 1:24:23Steven Bartlett?

  How it felt.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:24Steven Bartlett?

  And for anyone to resonate with how it felt, I imagine.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:27Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  You don't, you don't want me getting upset on your podcast.

• 1:24:30Steven Bartlett?

  No, it's okay, it's not really.

• 1:24:33Steven Bartlett?

  So, to conclude then, what would you say to, I've got two questions. What would you say to eighteen year old Mark? What advice would you give him? Looking back on the things that have happened to you, you've got this incident where, you know, immense betrayal and you're stabbed in the back and the stresses of running a business and all these wonderful things which you only learn from doing. Then you've got this incident in London which puts things into perspective. What would you say to nineteen, eighteen year old Mark to prepare him for the life that was ahead of him?

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Listen to the people around you that are saying.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  You, you're saying too much. Be a little bit more guarded about the, the, the information, I think. The.

• 1:25:22Speaker 01

  I would, I would say to him.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Be generous and be genuine.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  You know, don't be scared of, of, of giving. Be, be. Be open and honest, but not, not at your detriment, I think. It's difficult because it's hard to, to, to look at what decisions I could have made. These, these, these little details that I could have made differently, but I wouldn't change how I've been with those staff members and with my existing staff members. I think, I would say, continue to be that way, but

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  when you, when things are going well, when you fly in.

• 1:26:08Speaker 01

  Be prepared that things can come from all different angles and you've just got to deal with it, you've just got to deal with it.

• 1:26:17Steven Bartlett?

  And had you known at the very start before you started Ahoi that that was going to happen, would you have started it?

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  I think so, I think.

• 1:26:29Steven Bartlett?

  So if I told you it was gonna happen again?

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:32Steven Bartlett?

  Would you, would you carry on?

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Just the danger that it could, I think it's still at the back, you know, it's always at the back of your mind, I think, yeah, I would. Absolutely. I absolutely love what I do. I love design, I love photography.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  Running an agency and being in control of what you, what you do and the clients you have and the staff you bring on and, um, you know, bringing people together and, and all that kind of thing. It's, it is the best feeling in the world. But you will continually have the stress. That can be alleviated with things like investment and things like that to a certain degree. But you've still got that, you've still got that stress.

• 1:27:15Steven Bartlett?

  And so what's the, what's the, what's the big dream then for you? What's the, the, the end goal for Mark?

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  I think long, long term, I'd like to, I love France, I'd like to retire in France at some point. Um, I'd like to go into teaching at some point. Um, whether that's mentoring or, or whether it's more one-on-one and, and at a lower level, so, um, you know, maybe teaching within design. With the agency, our dream is that we want to be known for, as a brand and agency, for working with, working with challenger brands. So taking brands that, uh, you know, unheard of or are certainly pegged down and just allowing them to punch way above the weight.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  That's still the key for us. We wanna be known for,

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  I kinda like that feeling when, you know, you look at the site and go, oh, I know a few of those brands, oh, that, that makes sense. There are all those little brands that I like, all those different things I like, it's all from this one particular agency. Um, and ju- just for that, I just wanna make sure we've got, respect, respect from the clients that we do the work with, that it's, it's commercial, commercial, it works for them. It, it makes a big impact on their, their business. And also having kudos and respect from peers. So the other agencies look at us and go, do you know what? Wow, they're, they're doing really, really good stuff.

• 1:28:47Steven Bartlett?

  And what, on a personal level, what is your, what is your happiness? And are you happy now?

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's funny, I was saying this to someone the other day, I'm working a lot harder, I'm, I'm working um, longer hours and doing more things and like, like you, what you were saying as well, sort of managing my time, I'm happy to sort of really be decisive about the things I do and don't do. Um, but I do feel a lot happier at the moment, I don't know where it is. I think maybe I'm a little bit closer, maybe because it's a little bit smaller, I feel like I've got my agency back. That's what it feels like, I feel I've got my agency back. Some of the kind of laddie culture, which was there, um, has gone. Which is, was quite nice, it's kind of like a bit of a clean slate.

• 1:29:34Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  Um, bit more, bit more measured. Feel I've got the agency back, it feels a bit more smaller and manageable. Um, it's been great to see some of the other members of the team that, um, were more junior when they started to have a better bond with them and and see them and give them the, the ability to have a bit more impact on the business, that's been absolutely amazing.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  Seeing them move into a new office, which, you know, that's, in all honesty, maybe that's something I should have done earlier, maybe, you know, the the team talked about moving to Manchester and, and that's what they did when they, they set their, their, their other agency. Maybe that's something I should, that's something I could kick myself for, maybe I should have done that sooner. So, so getting our team into Manchester and seeing how happy they've been, that's been really, really rewarding. Um.

• 1:30:25Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing, so that's a very long interview and, uh, you know, it's been a, been a, a, a long journey, but I think it's, it's given a very honest account of a situation that's happened and, um, I, I thank you for being so open and honest. Um, I'm very excited for, to be able to share this with people and, you know, from my perspective and from what I've heard from the grapevine as being an agency owner in Manchester, um, one of the things I've always heard people say is how good the work it is you do. And, you know, people will talk about your story because there's, you know, the people gossip and they'll say good things and bad things or there'll be, you know, speculation, but something that's never come under speculation is how good your work is. And it's, it's always been held in such a high account, almost to, from the conversations I've had, and I'm not involved in design,

• 1:31:11Steven Bartlett?

  but as the standard, so that's, and that's something that, irrespective of betrayal or, you know.

• 1:31:18Steven Bartlett?

  Bad times, no one can really take from you and that's the foundation of you being able to then, in my opinion, go on and build something great again because it, no matter how you look at it, it kind of started with you and so and no one can take that. So I want to thank you for coming on. Um, how's it, how's it been?

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  I'm worried I've been too honest, but I think that's the whole, that's the whole, that's the whole point of it. Um, yeah, I just, I just can't thank you enough. I think, I think, you know, I appreciate your position and, and how busy you are and what you're doing and, you know, you're all over the world and not just all over Manchester. Um, it's been really good actually. I think, do you know what, do you know what I'm really happy about? That you've challenged me on it.

• 1:31:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  You've actually read out that response in Plickinoff, which you didn't tell me about.

• 1:32:01Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  You bugger.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  But, but I'm, I'm, I'm glad you've, I'm glad you've, you've done that because it, it gives them a fair, it's kind of a bite at it as well. It's kind of, kind of gives them a, a, it feels all right, they're not in a room to be able to talk about it, but it gives, it gives, it kind of, you've tried to see it from their, from their side as well, which I think is important, I really do. So yeah, just, just to, just to add, yeah. Can't thank you enough. Um, really good. So it'd be a bit weird listening to me self on the podcast when I'm driving in me van now, but um, yeah, it's, uh, it's great and I'm really looking forward to the other, the other po- podcast. I know you've been saying you're going to do about Jim Shark and all that kind of thing. So yeah, I can't, I can't, can't wait. And thanks for, you know, the first one.

• 1:32:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. Thanks for coming on, Mark, and I really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks.