Amelia Boone Is A Human Being (And Still A Badass)

Today's guest is lauded for her grit. And a preternatural ability to suffer. Her name is Amelia Boone. And she is the most dominant & decorated female in the history of OCR (obstacle course racing). Over the course of her storied athletic career, Amelia has amassed over 50 podiums and 30 victories. She is a Spartan Race World Champion and 3-time World's Toughest Mudder Champion. The ultimate weekend warrior, she’s done all of this while balancing a full time career as a corporate attorney — first at the prestigious Skadden Arps law firm in Chicago and currently at Apple in Silicon Valley. Dubbed ‘The Queen of Pain', it’s a career that’s landed her magazine covers, major publication features, national television gigs, and a legion of adoring fans across the world. But it's also a career that came with pressures that drained the fun out of competition. And a mask that obscured a deeper dysfunction lurking beneath the surface. Amidst the celebration of Amelia as an unbreakable champion, prodded for her daily habits, morning routine and training regimen, she privately battled an obstacle more daunting than any race she’d endured: an eating disorder she kept hidden for the better part of two decades. Today we celebrate Amelia not for her accolades, but for a different kind of courage — the vulnerability to face her disorder. Forge a path to wholeness. And change the way we talk about about a condition that debilitates millions. I first met Amelia a couple years ago. I freely admit my projection of her steely disposition intimidated me. But slowly she began sharing more openly and about her struggles, culminating in a vulnerable blog post that laid bare her protracted struggle. Her guilt. Her shame. Her honesty. Her courage. The facade gone, I fell for the human. I wanted to help amplify her powerful message. Today I have that honor. This is a conversation about the perniciousness and pervasiveness of eating disorders. And the path towards healing. More specifically, we discuss the difference between an eating disorder and disordered eating. The distinction between anorexia and bulemia. And how Amelia's particular strain of this condition, known as ‘relative energy deficiency in sport' (red-s), led to the many bone injuries that sidelined her athletic trajectory skyward. We dive into the relationship between childhood trauma and eating disorders. The psychological consequences of starving one's self. The ‘shame spiral' that perpetuates the condition. The denial she compartmentalized with Pop-Tarts. The clarity and courage required to seek treatment. What is required to build a strong foundation for long-term recovery. And advice for those who currently suffer. A companion piece to my conversation with Dotsie Bausch (RRP 355), my hope is that this conversation — a must listen for anyone caught in the grips of this disorder — provides the necessary nuance and clarity to better understand an affliction that impacts over 30 million people in the US alone. You can watch it all go down on YouTube. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  When I've thought about talking about my eating disorder, it always in the back of my mind is like, you can't unring that bell when you do finally talk about it. And I've had multiple people tell me that, and it's not so much, I think, that a lot of is that disorder thrives in shame. The disorder thrives in kind of, you know, holding it close and not being open about it. But at the same time, you also worry about, how is everybody else going to view you now, now that they know this? And are they going to treat you differently? And it is very much something that has been, you know, this difficult dance to kind of figure out. It's like, I don't want to be like, the eating disorder recovery girl.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  I don't want to be the athlete. I don't like, this is just me. Like, I'm super flawed, I'm super complex, just like everybody else out there. And this is just another piece, you know? So I'm just trying to live authentically and stumbling through and figuring this all out.

• 2:06Rich Roll?

  That's Amelia Boone, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:22Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. How's it going, people? This is the podcast, my podcast. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome. Thanks for joining me today. So today's guest is known widely, I would say, for her grit, her ability to suffer. Her name is Amelia Boone, and she is the most dominant and decorated female in the history of obstacle course racing. Fifty podiums, 30 victories, Spartan Race World Champion, three-time World's Toughest Mudder Champion. Her list of accolades goes on and on and on.

• 3:04Rich Roll?

  She's also the ultimate weekend warrior because Amelia has accomplished all of this while balancing a full-time career as a corporate attorney, first at Skadden Arps in Chicago and now at Apple in Cupertino. Dubbed the Queen of Pain, it's a career that's landed her on magazine covers, major publication features, and national television gigs as a commentator. And along the way, she's held herself out as essentially an open book, sharing her journey on social media and many podcasts. But reflecting back, she now calls those experiences selective vulnerability, an open book appearance with a veneer of transparency that belied, that shrouded, an essential truth about her life.

• 3:49Rich Roll?

  Because while Amelia was being celebrated as this unbreakable champion, prodded for her daily habits, her morning routine, her training regimen, and her race tactics, she harbored a secret, a secret 20-year battle with food and mental health, an eating disorder, basically, that she kept hidden and compartmentalized, which has been an obstacle more daunting than any race she's endured. However, four bone injuries, likely the result of her dysfunctional relationship with food, changed all of that. So this past summer, she summoned the courage to confront it, first through an extended

• 4:34Rich Roll?

  treatment program, and then by sharing her story for the first time with the public. A vulnerable and courageous blog post laid bare her protracted struggle, her guilt, her shame. And all of this was motivated by a desire on behalf of Amelia to really change the way we talk about eating disorders. And that post prompted an extended media cycle that led to a broader and more important conversation about the prominence of this condition among athletes and beyond. And today's episode is a powerful extension of that ongoing conversation.

• 5:12Rich Roll?

  It's coming up in a few, but first, let's take care of some business. Okay. Amelia, Amelia Boone. So I don't have to tell you that this woman is quite extraordinary. And this conversation was a long time in the making, and it lives up to the hype. We covered a ton of stuff. We talked about her career, of course, before diving into eating disorders specifically. And in the context of that aspect of the conversation, we parsed the differences between an eating disorder versus disordered eating.

• 5:53Rich Roll?

  We discuss her strain, her particular version of this condition, which is called REDS, Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport, and how this differs from anorexia and bulimia, for example. We talk about the beginnings of her disorder, how it can happen to anyone. And similar to me, this is somebody who had no terrible childhood or obvious trauma to blame for her disorder. We talk about her bone injuries and her stress fractures that kind of led her to seeking help in this format this past summer. We talk about her hiding her disorder. We discuss the psychological consequences of starving yourself and exiting the shame

• 6:34Rich Roll?

  spiral to finally seek help, in her case, a treatment center for 90 days. And we kind of conclude with advice for the many people out there that are continuing to struggle with eating disorders and how to better communicate with the people in our lives who do find themselves in this situation. All those things you've heard about Amelia over the years are true. She is a badass. And this new chapter, in my opinion, only underscores those descriptors like courage, grit, strength. And now we can add vulnerability to that list. I'm honored Amelia has entrusted me with helping her tell her story. It's a privilege. I don't take it lightly.

• 7:15Rich Roll?

  And I really applaud her courage in coming forward and being a true open book. And my hope is that this conversation, which is a bit of a companion piece to my conversation with Dotzy Bausch, that was episode 355 from March of 2018, will provide strength and provide comfort to those that struggle. And for everybody else, chances are you do know somebody who is dealing with this. And my intention, and Amelia's, is to provide the necessary nuance and clarity to better understand an affliction that impacts over 30 million people in the US alone. So let's do it. This is me and Amelia Boone.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  When I look back on podcasts that I've done in, you know, like 2015, or when I was the height of, like, it's just, I'm in such a different chapter now.

• 8:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  That it just doesn't feel, I don't resonate with it at all. And I think that, I mean, it's where I was at the time, but I think that if I look back on it now, a lot of it was very performative. I was only just, that was one aspect of myself and I was going to like hone in on that. And it just doesn't feel like me anymore.

• 8:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was all about performance and tactics and what do you eat? And how do you train? And what are your life habits? And all of that. But from afar, I've kind of watched you, you know, on this arc, this like evolutionary path that you've been on. And, you know, we met, I think the first time we met was at the Mind Body Green Conference, like, I don't know, it was like four or five years ago or something like that.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:59Rich Roll?

  And I just remember like being super intimidated by you. I was like scared of you. You were like this mega champion. I think we, there was a hike one morning and I was like, she, I'm scared of that girl, man.

• 9:12Rich Roll?

  But I think, looking back on it now, I was reflecting on that a little bit this morning. And I was like, what was it about you? Yes, there's certain insecurities that I have that made me intimidated about your accomplishments and what you're able to do. But I think also, subliminally, or maybe unconsciously, I felt like you also, you walled yourself off a little bit. Like you were emitting some kind of frequency, like, don't get too close.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's interesting because I've been told that before. People call me like an ice queen or something. And I don't, I never consciously projected that. I think that it's very much, I think that that, for me, comes from a place of insecurity in myself. And that very much so, I remember seeing you, and I knew who you were, and being very much intimidated as well, but not knowing that that kind of air of standoffishness that I think that I may have portrayed a lot of the time was my own insecurities.

• 10:19Rich Roll?

  Well, I think it's also indicative of this disease that we're going to talk about. You know, as somebody who's been in recovery for a long time myself, I mean, our stories are very different, but there's a lot of similarities. You know, the lawyer thing, and the 12-step thing, and the ongoing struggle, and all of that, and the ultra endurance. And I'm somebody who's been steeped in recovery for two decades, and have worked with a lot of people over the years. And I think, what it is, is when you're harboring that secret, like, you don't want, your intimacy is your enemy. So the idea of being open is terrifying to anybody, because what happens if they find out?

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Right. What happens if they find out? And for a long time, when I've thought about talking about my eating disorder...

• 11:10Speaker 01

  It was in the back of my mind is like, you can't unring that bell when you do finally talk about it. And I've had multiple people tell me that. And it's not so much, I think that a lot of is that disorder thrives in shame, the disorder, the disorder thrives in kind of, you know, holding it close and not, not being open about it.

• 11:31Rich Roll?

  Absolutely.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  But at the same time, you also worry about, how is everybody else going to view you now? Now that they know this? And are they going to treat you differently? And for me too, when I've had people say, oh, you know, you're, you're a great role model for my child to look up to, for my girl to look up to. And I, God, if I come out about like, am I, like, am I now? You know, I mean, when that I've been hiding all of this? And so it is very much something that has been, you know, has been kind of like this difficult, this, you know, this difficult dance to kind of figure out, like.

• 12:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, once you let it out of the bag, you can't, you can't unring that bell.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 12:14Rich Roll?

  But the fact that it's eating away at your soul, you know, it's like, it's, you're a ticking time bomb, right? So when somebody says to you, oh, you're such an inspiration and a role model, you're like, that pit in your stomach of realizing like, you don't really know, you know, that, that, that fraud complex.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Right. And you know, you don't, you don't know the entire story. And so it's, it's for me is this, this feeling, people ask me like, why, why did you talk about it now? And I go, it's a lot, it's to kind of align my head and my heart and who I am.

• 12:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you can't be a fully integrated person unless you own that.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:52Rich Roll?

  And knowing that, you know, the disease thrives in the darkness and feeds off shame, all of that, you know, it's ironic because you can intellectually understand that. And yet it's terrifying to step outside of that.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Right. And I also wanted to make sure that I was, I was actively in recovery, doing things, you know, that I, and for so long, I, I kind of told myself that I was, but then I actually really wasn't. And so.

• 13:22Rich Roll?

  Did you believe the lie?

• 13:26Speaker 01

  I I knew that I was not in a good place. That.

• 13:32Rich Roll?

  For how long?

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Oh, man, probably, I would say for at least the past six or seven years. I would say for the entire, probably the entire time that I was in sport. Um, I think very early on in sport, I could tell myself that I was doing well and I could think that, you know, like, oh, no, no, I'm just managing it, you know, like it's there. It's kind of in the back of my mind, but like I'm doing well, I'm competing well, I'm winning races, I'm winning world championships.

• 14:03Rich Roll?

  So how bad could it be?

• 14:04Speaker 01

  How bad can it be, right? Like, I mean, I knew where I had come from. I knew where I was when I was sixteen years old. I knew where I was when I graduated college and, you know, I was on death's door for a lot of that time. And I was like, I'm not there. So at this point, so clearly it's not that bad.

• 14:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you don't fit the mold or the stereotype of what somebody who has an eating disorder looks like. And what I connect with deeply about that is, you know, look, we're, we're both type A competitive people. We've both had success in our lives and that success, at least early on in earlier phases of our, our, you know, respective careers, was driven in large part by self-will, right? Like, I'm going to do this, I am self-reliant, I'm taking responsibility for my path, I can't rely on anyone else and I'm going to buckle down. I might not be the fastest or the smartest, but I'm going to outwork that person. And you quickly realize when you get results doing that, that you can leapfrog over people.

• 15:07Rich Roll?

  But if you're also harboring an addiction, you can use that facility that you have to rationalize your behavior. Because as long as you're waking up at four o'clock in the morning to go running, or you're meeting your deadlines at work and you're graduating summa cum laude and all of these things, you can then say, well, I don't really have a problem. And it perpetuates the condition that then just continues to like foment and grow.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Right, because you say, well, I'm fully functional, you know, and that's what I said. Fully functional throughout all, like the vast majority of the disease, you know? And so you say, okay, is this really a problem? When I am so high achieving, when I am doing all of this.

• 15:50Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Um, but you know, when you, when I kind of took a step back and really looked at my life in this past, you know, year or so, I said, yeah, I'm fully functional, but it feels so hollow. You know, it feels so hollow. Um, and I thought that there could be more out there.

• 16:10Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Was that hollowness the bottom? Or what was it the, the, you know, multiple fractures? Like what brought you to that place and that?

• 16:21Rich Roll?

  You know, that sense of self-awareness where you were ready to kind of own it in a different way?

• 16:26Speaker 01

  I think that yes, it was, it was the string of stress injuries. It was clearly the string of bone injuries that kind of gave me a wake up call that there's something, there's something not working here. But even more so than that, it was the fact that I would like come home to my apartment in, at night after work, um, after training and then just look around and be like, all I have is my disorder. And, and it was much more that I had walled myself off from relationships, from being engaged. Um, you know, I couldn't, I would go to all these races, but like, I wouldn't want to go out to dinner with everybody else the night before because I couldn't.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  It was petrifying to me, you know? And I, and I had to do my safe thing and I had to be in my safe space. And that's just a really, really hollow way to live.

• 17:21Rich Roll?

  Hmm. And exhausting.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Very exhausting.

• 17:24Rich Roll?

  And lonely.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Very lonely. Um, and you spend so much time, um, and I'm sure you can relate to this, just trying to protect all that, to try to do your thing and it's exhausting. I was so tired of spending so much time obsessing about food.

• 17:40Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Um, and I just, I was ready to be done with that.

• 17:44Rich Roll?

  Right. And then every journalist wants to talk to you about it.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  And then you're like, yeah, I'm like, no. And that's why if you ever listen to any interviews with me, when I talk about food, I always say, oh, nobody, nobody should, nobody should take a cue from me on food. And I have been, and I will say this, I've, I, I will say that I have been a hundred percent truthful in all the interviews about, about that. Um, and, you know, and I was afraid, like, what are people going to think of me now that I've like talked about these things in the past and, you know, talk about me eating Pop Tarts and stuff. Oh, I eat Pop Tarts. I do, you know?

• 18:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, the funny thing about the, the Pop Tart thing, I mean, that's like your signature move.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:27Rich Roll?

  But what's interesting about that, like, looking back now in retrospect, is, is the extent to which, maybe you're not, maybe I'm projecting, but, um, it, it appears as if that, that could act as like this foil or this mask, like, hey, I'm so carefree about my diet. I eat Pop Tarts. Like, it's almost like a defense mechanism, right?

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I, I think it is like a defense mechanism. I think a part of me now looking back is, is a bit overcompensation, is that I don't want people to think that I have an issue. So.

• 19:02Rich Roll?

  If you're eating Pop Tarts all the time.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Clearly, clearly I don't have an issue.

• 19:06Rich Roll?

  Keeps them at bay.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Uh, you know, and I think that also, you know, eating disorders take all different forms. Um, and so it's not just the super healthy, like, orthorexia person that only eats fruits and vegetables, you know, like we all, everybody within the realm of eating disorders, it, it manifests itself differently.

• 19:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And we're in an interesting time where, you know, everyone's talking about intermittent fasting and all these, you know, the diet wars are afoot and people are very passionate about this. Um, and now we're seeing these think pieces coming out that are kind of shining the light on how some of these protocols are really just eating disorders masked.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:48Rich Roll?

  You know, if, if you, it's, it's all about your relationship to them. I mean, certainly there's advantages to intermittent fasting and good things about it, but if you have an unhealthy relationship with that practice, it can be another way of shielding, like, a deeper problem.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Right. And I think that in many, i- i- for a lot of people, it doesn't rise to eating disorders, but it, it, it could arise to disordered eating.

• 20:12Rich Roll?

  So how did, what is the, the technical difference between those?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  I, I, I do not have

• 20:17Rich Roll?

  Somebody who just came right out of treatment, you really have all the

• 20:20Speaker 01

  It is

• 20:21Rich Roll?

  All the language.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I will say that I will speak, you know, all of this. So this is an in of one for me. And so I'm not, you know, I'm, I don't have degrees in this, so I, um, but, so I just want to give that caveat. But I think it really is when it, when it rises to like, how, how problematic does it become in your everyday life? You know? And so I think in very thing is probably like with alcohol is that, does it, how all consuming is it? So I don't think that there is like a hard line. I'm sure if you looked at the D S N five criteria between, you know, what actually is an eating disorder versus what's kind of like disordered eating practices?

• 21:03Speaker 01

  I'm sure that there's, there's something there, but you look around sometimes and you think, God, everybody has disordered eating. If you look at this, and I think that that also prevents people and prevented me, I think, from seeking help.

• 21:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Because it was almost like, what's the point? Everybody seems to have a messed up relationship with food nowadays. Is there anything that, is there anything better? Can there be quote unquote normal?

• 21:32Rich Roll?

  But that's a function of measuring yourself against other people as opposed to measuring yourself against yourself and whatever you feel is missing, like that hole that you were talking about. Yeah, it's like, you know, everyone gets a DUI, like, you know, it's like, no big deal. You have to get a couple before you

• 21:50Speaker 01

  No, and you can rationalize, and that's what I was doing for, at least for the past few years, was kind of rationalizing my way out of the fact that I knew I was still hanging on to my disorder. Is that I was, was looking around and saying, well, everybody's screwed up. So why am I so different? And that was actually reinforced by People, when I had a few people where I would tell them about my issues and they'd be like, "Yeah, you have an issue with food. So does everybody."

• 22:19Rich Roll?

  Right. Welcome to humanity.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think, you know, it's, it's a, it's a spectrum thing. And, you know, in your case, and I, I know I experienced this, like, the universe starts knocking on your door and giving you these little signals like, "Hey, you know, this, this might not be the right path for you." Little cracks in the art, you know, the firmament start to happen. And if you don't pay attention and you still just blaze that path of like self-will forward, those dramas become a little bit bigger and a little bit bigger and a little bit bigger. It's like it's testing your pain threshold. And you and I, like you, you more than me, but you have a huge pain threshold. Like you can suffer. Your whole thing is like the queen of suffering. So it's gonna have to get really bad before you're

• 23:05Rich Roll?

  gonna, you know, have a reckoning with it.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think it has to get really bad, but I think it has to, if I look at, if I look at my trajectory and I look, look, I have 20 year history with this and that I could have probably white knuckled the rest of my life through it without seeking more help. And I think that there was a part of me thinking that I'm 35 years old, like I should be able to handle this on my own, you know, I, that eating disorders are a young person's disease, that it's something that I, I was recognized I have a lot of the shoulds that I, I should have, you know, gotten over this when I was in college or the multiple times that I was in treatment beforehand. But it's just that kind of in the back of your mind, you're thinking like, there could be something

• 23:52Speaker 01

  more, like there could be a life more fulfilling and like more free if I go through this.

• 23:58Rich Roll?

  And the cutting and baffling aspect of it is this delusion that you can solve it yourself, that you can apply your self-will to this problem because it's worked in every other area of your life. Like, why isn't, why can't I, you know, make it work here?

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 24:12Rich Roll?

  But the more you rely on, and you're, I mean, like you told Shane Parrish, like you were talking about self-reliance. And it was in the context of not being an entitled person.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:23Rich Roll?

  And I understand that, but, but I couldn't help but think. You're advocating this path of like, you can only count on yourself. And at the end of the day, yeah, people will come in and help you, but like, it's gotta be you. And I think that mentality is what keeps people who struggle with this or other forms of addiction stuck in their condition or their disease because they're unwilling to raise their hand and ask for help and then accept that help.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Right. And I think that where the disconnect always happened to me because I could look at, logically, I knew what I needed to do. And in terms of rehabilitating my body, things like that, like, you know what you need to do. You could give me a meal plan. You could tell me probably what I needed to eat. Or like, I knew what I needed to do, but forcing myself to do it on my own, I just,

• 25:16Rich Roll?

  Wasn't gonna happen.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Couldn't do it. And what happens when you realize you can't do it on your own, you then, or at least I started kicking myself and getting in this cycle of self-flagellation, saying, Amelia, you know what you need to do. Why can't you do it?

• 25:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  And for somebody who, yes, I have been super self-reliant in so many areas of my life, and to not be able to apply it to this is very devastating.

• 25:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's called a shame spiral.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:45Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 25:46Speaker 01

  It's bad.

• 25:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Self-knowledge will avail you nothing, as they say. And, you know, what's relevant to that is, I reached out to you, I don't know, maybe two years ago, to like, come on the podcast, and you kind of kept me at bay for a little bit. And then maybe a year ago, you're like, I want to come on. I have something I want to talk about. Like, you know, I have this thing with eating, but I'm not ready to talk about it yet. So you had, that was a while ago.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:13Rich Roll?

  You had the self-awareness, the self-understanding, but you weren't ready to, you know, either own it yourself completely or do anything about it until recently.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's, that's very true, is that I, I knew, you know, and I had spoken to you, that like, this is, this is a part of me, but I don't feel like I'm in a place right now where I'm actually doing anything to kind of, to...

• 26:42Speaker 01

  To make myself better. I didn't feel like I was in a place of recovery.

• 26:46Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  And so I needed to, I needed to kind of come to that point where I realized I can't do this on my own anymore. And I, I need to go into treatment. I need to seek

• 26:58Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  A higher level of care. I take myself out of my life. Um, and to do that. And, um, so that really was kind of the moment for me. Um, in, in realizing like, yes, I, at one point I wanted to talk about this, but I, it can't, you know, it's not now.

• 27:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And I was like, great. When you're ready.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:19Rich Roll?

  You know, do it, but I didn't bug you about it. Like you have to come to that, you know, on your own terms. Like you, you have to arrive at that place where you have the willingness to address it. And then, you know, later on, like talk about it, but it has to be for you, right? I would imagine you've been foisted into treatment protocols in the past where you're just trying to get people off your back as opposed to really wanting it for your own life.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I mean, I think that's when I was much younger, that's the case. When you're 16 years old and you're thrown in the hospital, like that wasn't my doing. I was kicking and screaming the entire way. Or in college, I went through the motions to get people to just, so they wouldn't pull me out of school. And this time it was, no one was telling me like, you should seek treatment. And most people didn't even know. A few close friends knew. People from my past, um, you know, clearly knew that I struggled in the past, but they didn't know that it was still bothering me.

• 28:15Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  So this time it was real, I remember calling up my parents. I was like, I'm going to day treatment. You know, I'm, I'm taking a leave of absence and, um, it was very, it was a very different place for me to do it all on my own. Um, without anybody else kind of like encouraging me.

• 28:32Rich Roll?

  They must've been happy about that.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think so. I mean, I think that clearly like they've they've seen me struggle for so long. And I I actually realized now, you know, being in my mid 30s and I'm not a parent, but I can I can't imagine how hard it is to watch your child go through that and to be like they, you know, but she needs to do it on her own.

• 28:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. So the day that you decided you were going to go to treatment, was there something that triggered that? Or was it just a a slow awareness that one day you woke up and you're like, today's the day?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  It was a slow awareness. It'd been kind of percolating in the back of my mind of probably for the past year or so. And but I kept telling myself, like, God, I don't, I don't really need it. And I remember it was actually in January, I called Opal Food and Body, which is a place in Seattle, to do kind of just an initial intake eval. And then I remember actually, they they they were like, okay, this is great. You can come in. And then I I was getting ready, prepared to run Barclay marathons. And I was like, no, things are going well. Like, I want to run. I was like, we'll deal with this after

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Barclay, you know. So I was I kept finding like, I kind of pushed them off. And then I finally, you know, and then I ended up with another stress fracture, which took me, which took me out of Barclay. And that was two weeks before. And that's I called them up. And I was like, yeah, let's

• 30:07Rich Roll?

  Now's the time.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Now's the time, you know?

• 30:10Rich Roll?

  Well, before I get into what that experience was like, I I kind of want to track it back to the beginning. So as you said, this is something you've been living with since you were a very young girl.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:21Rich Roll?

  It began with OCD, right? When you were like, six or seven?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, they I was I was diagnosed with OCD. Probably when I was six or seven, it was in your classic like light switch flipping type of cleanliness thing. And actually, anybody who knows me now would laugh if they heard I was OCD because like I'm a very messy person.

• 30:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  My

• 30:42Rich Roll?

  You don't have a Tracy Flick like desk?

• 30:45Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, no. Like it's just chaos. I'm very, very cluttered. So I didn't really fit that classic mold, but I remember, you know, even when I was like four or five years old, if I couldn't get to sleep by a certain time, I would throw a tantrum. Or if I, you know, if I had these different like fears and phobias that would come and go. And so those kind of started pretty early on. And then I think that when I, when the food issues started, I think my parents just kind of thought, and I kind of thought, well, it's just another manifestation of the OCD and it will go away in a few months. Kind of like the other ones did.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a phase that that was just another manifestation because all the other ones kind of came and went. So this one will kind of come and go. So I think we didn't really think too much. I didn't really think too much of it.

• 31:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, until you're like 16, right? When, when's the, when was the first, that was the first big crisis?

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I don't, I try and think about when the first time when I had kind of like a disordered thought around food. And it was a pretty, it was my sophomore year of high school and it was a pretty short timeframe from when I first started having like thoughts about food to, you know, when I got like, when I got really sick. But I remember being a sophomore and going to a sleepover at my friend Kelly's house. And we were all sitting around, everyone was like eating popcorn. And I remember that night, all I could do was fixate on that, like, Feeling guilty about eating that greasy popcorn and then the next morning like still

• 32:28Speaker 01

  thinking about it and thinking about how I shouldn't have eaten that and and then I remember like going to my mom and being like I can't stop thinking about that popcorn and I don't know what's wrong with me. Um, and so in this had been kind of, I mean, this food stuff had kind of just been over a span of a few months.

• 32:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Um, where I think that I just got progressively more fearful of it and I didn't really know why. It wasn't a conscious, I think now we think so much of eating disorders as like a, um,

• 33:00Rich Roll?

  Body image.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  The body image thing. There was no body image involved for me at the time.

• 33:05Rich Roll?

  Control.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  It was control. It was absolutely, um, I think I was, you know, going through random teenage turmoil and it was a way that I could feel kind of superior to people's that I could control what I put in my body and it was almost this weird little game for me. It was like I could go out and do, you know, three soccer games on X amount of food and everybody else had to eat more than me. And so it became this kind of fixation like that.

• 33:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you would think that that impulse to create control in your life would come from, uh, a tra- like a chaos related trauma in the household, like your parents split up or there's something happens where your life feels out of control, but this is the one thing that you can control. But the more I kind of learn about this world, um, it's not, it's not as simple as that. Like you, your parents love you and it seems like you grew up in a, you know, pretty functional, healthy household. So when you look back on that time, like, do you, do you have any insights about what led, led to that impulse of needing to exert that kind of control?

• 34:17Speaker 01

  You know, I, the sad part is, is that I don't. Um, and it's, I guess it's not sad, but. I remember being in, being in, you know, recovery the first time when I was 16 and looking around thinking, almost feeling bad that I didn't have anything to blame. Like, I didn't have a trauma. My parents were super supportive. We had very normal relationships with food growing up. You know, there was never any diet talk. There was never anybody on a diet trying to lose weight. There was nothing that I could point to. And I think in a way that almost made it worse for me.

• 34:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Because I wanted, I wanted a reason. I wanted something to be like, this is why I'm so messed up. But instead, it was just like, there, I got it in my head that there must be something then wrong with me.

• 35:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  That I could have this wonderful life, these wonderful parents, this functional family, yet there were these demons in my head and I didn't know why.

• 35:16Rich Roll?

  Right. It makes you feel broken and also guilty. Like, you're letting down these people who did right by you.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly.

• 35:23Rich Roll?

  I mean, my parents, same thing. Like, there was no alcoholism in my house growing up. My parents are still married, you know? My needs were met and all of that. So, it's confusing when you can't, like, you're almost like, I wish that I could say it was this. And when you can't, it's, it's, uh, it's like, it doesn't give you an anchor.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:44Rich Roll?

  You know, or a genesis point for this kind of thing.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  And you have nothing external to blame. And I think in some ways, it's so much easier when you can point to something external and be like, that's it. Instead, you have to turn it all internal on yourself.

• 35:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  And that's been a pattern through my entire life, is that I will always find the internal blame first. I will never, that, I don't blame anybody else, you know, but it's always, it's always me.

• 36:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I would imagine there is some, you know, something that happened that you're unconscious of on some level. Like, I had Gabor Maté on the podcast and he just flipped this equation on me and started psychoanalyzing me, and, you know, asking me about my parents and all of that. And it's like, you know, his thing is, all of these things result from some form of childhood trauma by well-intentioned people that, you know, we may not remember, or just some emotional need wasn't being met. Maybe, like, you're a hyper-competitive person. On some level, did you feel? Like you had to be successful. Was there something unsaid in the household? Like where, you know, being driven and upwardly mobile was just an expectation?

• 36:51Rich Roll?

  Like, I don't know. I'm, you know, I don't know, but I think it's worth, it's worth asking and exploring that. But ultimately, whatever is there doesn't really provide you a roadmap for getting better and living your life. Right? Like if you just focus on the solution, like you can go down that rabbit hole, but ultimately I don't know what dividend it pays.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  No, and I agree that I, and I'm sure that I've looked at all different avenues and things like that. But I don't think finding the reason behind your disorder or your, you know, your, your choice of coping mechanisms is actually going to do any good.

• 37:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not, it's not functional.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 37:28Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 37:35Rich Roll?

  All right. So one of the things that you've kind of always said is like, well, I wasn't really an athlete in high school, but that's not the full picture. Like you were until you developed these disordered behaviors. And then that kind of sidelined you from softball and basketball and golf and all these other sports that you were, that you were excelling at prior to that.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  I mean, I was, I was a very good athlete growing up and I remember like being in like the local newspapers, like the fear, the fearsome pitcher, you know, that nobody wanted to face in softball. But yeah, I mean, I lost a lot of weight in a short period of time and I got very, very weak. And so, and I think that, that was, that was part of, part of the start of the demise of, of sports. And then that, you know, that clearly led to treatment and led to hospitalization. And so, yeah, I, I was a good athlete. I just became too sick to be able to compete anymore.

• 38:33Rich Roll?

  So you have this, you have this experience where you're hospitalized between Thanksgiving and Christmas when you're 16, right? So that's your, your first experience with an institution.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  I do not wish, and so, and this was back in, I mean, this was before there were any types of like residential treatments, facilities, or like you see these nice houses that are like spa-like type of treatment facilities. No, this was a children's ward. This was a children's ward at a hospital and I was on bedrest for a month. So I couldn't get out of the hospital bed. And, I mean, you try and tell a sophomore in high school that they, they can't like get out of bed and wasn't allowed to see my friends. That was completely cut off. I remember my parents actually snuck in two of my friends to come and see me. But they just tried, I

• 39:27Speaker 01

  think because they thought that friends would be triggering. I don't know. It was a different treatment models at the time.

• 39:32Rich Roll?

  Well, your parents must have been terrified.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. I mean, they, and they didn't tell me until after I was discharged from the hospital, but the first night, they took me in there. Cause I remember, so I went to a doctor, they, when I told my parents, you know, about my food issues and they, the doctor like did a checkup, did all my vitals and they're like, she needs to go to the hospital right now. And that night in the hospital, my heart actually stopped. And my parents didn't tell me about that until after I was discharged, because I didn't know. But, I mean, they were, they, they almost lost their daughter. And I think that still kind of pains me to this day.

• 40:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, if your, if your heart had stopped at home.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:18Rich Roll?

  It would have been a totally different thing. So you were really lucky.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's scary and it's for real, right? And, and I think what's, you know, what's interesting about your story is that you're like, okay, well, now it's life back to normal. Like when you get back out, right? Like, okay, that, that happened. But yeah, I need some therapy, but it's all going to be fine now.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:43Rich Roll?

  I mean, was that? The kind of approach or?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that so back in the day, they would kind of medically stabilize you at the hospital. And then you just went straight to kind of an outpatient therapy model. And at the time, I think that was fine for me. I was just eager to get back to high school. In my mind, I was kind of thinking like, okay, I went down a road that I didn't want to go down. I learned my lesson. I don't want to be in a hospital for another month or so. So we'll do this thing and we'll get over it and, and just move on. And it, and it seemed to work, I think, for the most part, for a few years.

• 41:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, you didn't get back into sports, though.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  You know, I, so I did a little bit. Once I was kind of more stabilized, I was able to rejoin my teams, but it wasn't the same.

• 41:36Rich Roll?

  Wasn't, yeah.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  You, I kind of lost a year of developmental time where everybody else is getting faster and getting better and getting stronger. And so I came back to the team, but I just kind of like rode the bench.

• 41:49Rich Roll?

  Right. Too far behind, had lost too much strength.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and so, and that's, that's, that's a bitter pill to swallow, for sure.

• 41:57Rich Roll?

  Do you think that you transferred some of those impulses to control your environment onto your academics?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  I think I had always had those, those control. I mean, the academics, that part, I was clearly always like the teacher's pet control kid from a very, very young age. My parents were always like, you can get Bs and Cs. It's fine. And I was like, no, straight As for me solely. So. But yeah, that was there. I actually, I, as I kind of tamped down the sports, I also went more heavily into like singing and musical theater and things like that.

• 42:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  So yeah, I just kind of manifested itself in other ways.

• 42:38Rich Roll?

  So, but you, you graduate with great grades. You go to, you go to college, you're, you know, you're an RA and you're doing a cappella and you're getting, you know, you're summa cum laude and the whole thing. Like, what was the college experience with this?

• 42:52Speaker 01

  College I did, my freshman year, I, I did pretty well in terms of like, I, I thought at that point I was recovered. I would, I would tell, I remember actually telling my sorority sisters, like, I recovered from an eating disorder.

• 43:05Rich Roll?

  ED, recovered, in the past, done.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  In the past, recovered, done. Um, and sophomore year, I relapsed really hard, really quickly, once again. And, um.

• 43:20Rich Roll?

  Do you know what triggered that?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  At the time, I think it was like some tumultuous relationships, but it was nothing very, I mean, it was all kind of, if I look back on it now, it was all kind of your typical young adult turmoil.

• 43:37Rich Roll?

  Right. But it probably was, if you weren't treating it consistently over the years, like it was just waiting in the shadows.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:45Rich Roll?

  For an excuse to come back out again.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, um, so I, one, you know, once again, I kind of wish I had something to pinpoint on it, but I don't really.

• 43:56Rich Roll?

  It's your fault.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  I know. It's, it is my fault.

• 44:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, so, and, and so I relapsed really hard my sophomore year of college and then spent like the next three years just trying to get by. And I had multiple interventions from friends from my a cappella group trying to get me out of school. And, um.

• 44:22Rich Roll?

  So it was visibly apparent.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  It was very, I was very, very sick.

• 44:26Rich Roll?

  So walk me through what it's like to be stuck in that cycle, because I think there's so many misconceptions and myths about the experience of, of being held captive by an eating disorder. I mean, people just think, well, just get over it, like start eating food.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Just eat, right? My God, if it was only that simple. I'm like, thank you very much.

• 44:48Rich Roll?

  That had not occurred to me.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was one of the biggest misconceptions, and I think people have reached out to me and said, like, I don't know how you were competing not eating. And I go, okay, well, people with eating disorders eat. I mean, that's, that's, that's, you know, it's just always, it's a very, very controlled manner. And, and when it depends, I mean, I'm, my experience has solely been with anorexia, so I, I can't speak for the other, for bulimia, for binge eating disorder, for the other manifestations. But it is just, it's all consuming. Food is all consuming. Um, and the thoughts of, you know, how to eat it, how much, how not to eat it, how to avoid detection.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  And it is very much something that as you do get physically emaciated, your mental state also starts to deteriorate. And so part of me, I look back and I go, God, how was I, I mean, how did I graduate summa cum laude in my state, you know?

• 45:53Rich Roll?

  So the, but the mental degradation part of it, I mean, what is that? Cause there's also like a, like a weird euphoria with it also. And that goes hand in hand with like the body dysmorphia. You look in the mirror and you see, you know, something very different than what is objective truth.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I had a lot of shame, actually. Actually, my, my, I was very ashamed of what I looked like. I knew I was very sickly and I would try and hide it. So I would, I was living in, I was in college in St. Louis and being the winners. And I would like put on like two or three pairs of tights under my jeans to try and hide it from people. Cause I was so ashamed, but I, and I didn't like how I looked and I didn't like what I was doing, but I just, I didn't know how to change it. And I think that's one of the things that I, that so much of this is also habit. So when you start ingraining these kind of habits and when you start avoiding something,

• 46:52Speaker 01

  for instance, then the more and more that you avoid it, the more fearful it be, the more like

• 46:58Rich Roll?

  Power it has.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Power it has. So the more you avoid food and restrict food, the like, the more fearful you become of it and it becomes this cycle and you just can't get out of it. I mean, you can, but

• 47:11Rich Roll?

  You can, but I think that, that powerlessness is what people have a hard time wrapping their heads around.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Like how, why, why can't you just sit there and eat the meal?

• 47:23Rich Roll?

  And your answer to that would be?

• 47:26Speaker 01

  I mean, I can. You, if you sit down in front of me and you put a, a plate of food in front of me, like, I absolutely can, but like, the, the.

• 47:36Rich Roll?

  What are the consequences of like, eating that meal? Like, what, what, you know, walk me through, like, what the emotional experience would be for you if you were, like, actually force fed something that you didn't want to eat when you're in that state?

• 47:48Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, the, it's anxiety that just goes through the roof. So, I mean, of not eating the food is the way to cope with the anxiety, is the way to tamp down the anxiety. But if you actually, you know, went through the process, if I sat down to eat that entire meal, like, heart palpitations the entire time, just like, thinking, ruminating, and then afterwards, you spend all your time ruminating about that food, about what you ate. And what's, what's also interesting is that I love food. People also think that, you know, people with eating disorders, like, don't like the taste of food, or don't, no. Fault, I mean, that may be true, it's true for some folks, but like, you literally, at some point in, in treatment, I remember being,

• 48:33Speaker 01

  like, it was almost like they gave me permission to eat, and I was so happy at the time, because I didn't have an option. So it was almost like, you have to eat this.

• 48:42Rich Roll?

  Relief.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  It was almost like, a relief to give that.

• 48:45Rich Roll?

  Wow. Do you know who, that, do you know this person, Eugenia Cooney, Clooney? She's this young girl who's a YouTuber who developed a, a really large audience.

• 49:00Rich Roll?

  And, and her, her eating disorder just became writ large, like, she just dwindled down into, like, a stick figure. And she was putting up all these videos, and lots of teen girls are following her, and people are like, you're gonna die, like, I mean, it's shocking when you see this young girl. And this, and then she kind of disappeared for a while. And last week, this big YouTuber called Shane Dawson, and he's like, one of the biggest creators on the platform, made a little mini documentary where he went and visited her to, like, see how she was doing. And it's fascinating. He goes to her house and he sits down with her. And apparently she had just come out of some kind of treatment. And he's trying to engage her in what that was like and how she's doing.

• 49:45Rich Roll?

  And he's, you know, trying to say the right things and he's deeply concerned about her. But it was clear to me that this is somebody who, who really hasn't fully owned what's going on. Like she's young and, and she couldn't even say that she had an eating disorder. And she's wearing a big sweater and it was clear that she was still, you know, either very early in her recovery or still not even, you know, not really in recovery at all. And if you watch it with a, with an objective eye, it's like a, I mean, it's like an hour long video on YouTube. I'll put a link in the show notes.

• 50:20Rich Roll?

  You can see the disease like written all over her face and how baffling it is because she's just not really connecting the dots.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that in, in it's very, I mean,

• 50:35Speaker 01

  I look back at times when like I wasn't, you know, connecting the dots. And I think that when you're very, very sick, sometimes it's, it's hard to, and you can't see objectively. And you can't trust your own eyes. You can't trust yourself. And I stopped trusting my body. I stopped trusting everything. And that's a very paralyzing place to be. You know, and that you, you just don't feel like you have a way out at all.

• 51:04Rich Roll?

  And yet you can, you perpetuated this for quite some time, like through law school as well. Like you had some dark experiences in law school.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Law school was, so I graduated from college and part of the, in college, I kind of realized, okay, I, I, something needs to be done. And, and so I went to, I graduated from college.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Got in my car with my mom and drove cross country to a residential treatment facility down in Carlsbad. And then I was there for a little bit. And actually, that was the first time where I, where I think I finally embraced, like, fully surrendered. Like, I outed myself on everything that I had been doing to kind of lie and steal and cheat my way through, you know, pseudo eating disorder recovery. So I actually kind of got myself in like a good, solid state before I went to law school. But probably coming straight out of residential treatment into law school was not a great idea because, as you know, law school is a pressure cooker.

• 52:09Rich Roll?

  How long was that treatment experience?

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Uh, I was there, I think about five, I was supposed to be there about eight weeks, but I think I only ended up being five because insurance ran out.

• 52:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Um, and, um, you know, it's like, these treatment facilities are like $1,200 a day.

• 52:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's all about like the aftercare. Like, what's, what's your program going to be when you get out of this?

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:32Rich Roll?

  You know, and if you don't have that set up and you're not making that your number one priority, again, you're just, you're going to revert back.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I set up a team in Seattle where I was in law school, but it was still very much, I mean, the chaos of being a one L and then the whole, like, your one L grades count for everything. And I mean, I almost dropped out of law school like three or four times, probably the first and only time in my life that I've ever identified as being depressed, you know? Um, and, um, so it was, it was a very tough, it was a very, very tough transition. Highly would not recommend that.

• 53:10Rich Roll?

  And was there no exercise going on during these years?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the treatment model at the time, and, um, probably for, for a good reason, um, was that, or this was the thinking at the time, was that you need to eliminate all movement. Um, and I was also at a very, at a stage, at a physical state where it would be unsafe for me. Um, and so I didn't, I would say, so between

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Hi, I graduated between like my freshman year of college through probably my second year of law school, I didn't do any type of exercise. Um, none.

• 53:50Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Um, and, but I was, I, I was, I was a mover. I've always been a mover my entire life, you know, like I, I like to move and I like to be active. So I wanted to figure out how to go back to that. But for some people, part of their disorder is, is movement, is exercise. Um, and I was, I was fearful that it could be a slippery slope for me.

• 54:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the real problem is, is the underlying, um, sense of uneasiness that drives you to feel like you have to control your environment.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:28Rich Roll?

  That can be manifest in your relationship with food, but it can be also manifest in your relationship with exercise or, or your studies, your academics, like your job, like all of these different things are outlets for that, you know, sort of ill-conceived compulsion that you have. Like the, the food thing is just how it manifests for you.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:50Rich Roll?

  It can be alcohol, it can be drugs, it can be gambling, shopping, whatever. Um, and when you kind of address the relationship with food, it doesn't necessarily, like you may be kind of white knuckling it, but if you still have that, it's going to find another way to eke out, right? And it's interesting how you see so many people in recovery in the ultra world, you know, there's a reason for that.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 55:15Rich Roll?

  It's like, the percentage has to be crazy high.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  It, it's, it's super high. And I think what they, the problem is that when it comes to, for somebody who's in recovery for drugs and alcohol, for instance, or for sex addiction, they would say, well, exercise is a healthy outlet for you. For somebody who's in recovery for an eating disorder, all of a sudden,

• 55:37Rich Roll?

  Those two things overlap.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  You have to question, is exercise a healthy outlet for you? And that's actually a lot of the work that I did when I was at Opal was to try and untangle, because I had a lot of questions in my mind too, when I, of whether, Whether the running, you know, and whether the athletics was part of the disorder.

• 55:57Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  And to try and decouple those.

• 56:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's so hard because you love the sports, right? And this is making your life better in so many ways. So to objectively kind of deconstruct the extent to which it's contributing to your disorder is not only difficult, but it has to be like, if you come to the conclusion that yes, there is a disordered aspect to this, then you have to be prepared to dismantle this identity that you've constructed about who you are.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And, and that, in that whole like feeling of grief and loss that goes with that. Though I do have to say, I think being, having so many injuries, I've kind of have gone through that grief and loss in a separate.

• 56:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  I actually, and I, I've said this, I said this to my treatment team and that actually one of the best things in terms of separating my, the eating disorder from sport was being sidelined with injury because I all of a sudden then had to kind of, it was like a forced separation.

• 57:08Rich Roll?

  You had to reckon with it.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Right. I had to reckon with figuring out like, who am I beyond this? And then also like, is this part of it or is it, you know, is this a good, healthy outlet for me? Or is it something that's driven, you know, by disorder?

• 57:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. And I would imagine that, that your answer to that is constantly evolving right now. Right? Yeah. Because, I don't know, I just, through my own lens and my own experience, when people say to me like, oh, you just, you transferred one addiction for another. I'm like, yeah, you know, I can't, to a certain extent, that is true. Like, I think people who dismiss that out of hand are not being intellectually or emotionally honest. So I'm always monitoring that. Like, what is my relationship to this? Is it healthy? Is it unhealthy? And it's always a little bit of both, I think. But in the balance of things, it's improving my life more than it's denigrating it.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that what I've kind of realized, and clearly I still question this all the time, but you have to look at your intentions behind the movement and intentions behind what you're doing. And I've realized that there are, for me, there are certain forms of exercise that could be more disordered, that aren't as like healthy. And then for my mental state. And then that's also part of the reason why I kind of moved from like the obstacle racing over like into the more endurance side of things is realizing that the competitive

• 58:49Speaker 01

  obstacle racing like circuit for me could be very unhealthy if I got caught up solely in the competition, solely in the podium, solely in, you know, things like that. Whereas then if I looked at things like doing the Barclay marathons that where your chance of failure is 99.999%.

• 59:07Rich Roll?

  It's you and you.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. That to me was coming from a very different place than, you know, the circuit, the Spartan racing circuit, things like that.

• 59:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's about winning.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:21Rich Roll?

  And other people and competition. And the ultra world is really like these soul explorations, you know, in certain respects. I mean, you know, you want to win, you're competitive or whatever, but like, you know, it's ultimately not about anyone else other than your relationship with yourself.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:36Rich Roll?

  And there's something about those, training for those races and participating in them that forces you to confront yourself in a really kind of profound way that probably doesn't happen in a more compressed kind of competitive event.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's actually one of the reasons when I first started getting into sport, I mean, I was 27, 28, that I shied away from races that were actually like timed and ranked and judged and had placements, you know? I started out doing Tough Mudder solely because there was no competitive aspect to it. Cause I knew that that could be a Like a dangerous path for me.

• 1:00:16Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And then look what happened.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  I know. Well, look what happened.

• 1:00:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  And then, and, and then, you know, and the things that then came along with that.

• 1:00:27Rich Roll?

  Well, it's amazing because you, you became a prisoner of your own success. Like you became so wildly successful in a, in a manner in which, you know, I would imagine you didn't, you couldn't have ever expected. But then with that comes shouldering the expectations of suddenly all these other people and sponsors and the media who are like, you're the queen of pain and like, you're the, you're the hardest person. And, you know, like you're, you're, so the expectation is like, you're going to win all these races. You're going to beat all the men, you're going to kick everyone's ass and you're going to suffer more. And, and so when you line up for every race, like just, okay, like I have to, I have to like, you know, dance for everybody else once again, like it's an unsustainable model.

• 1:01:07Rich Roll?

  And I think going back to that first experience of meeting you and, and having this sense of who you are at that time, like I've watched you evolve from that person. Like when I, when I first started really getting interested in what you were doing, it's like, oh yeah, she's kicking ass in all these races, but like, I was like, all right, you know, she's badass. But then when you pivoted to realizing that you had to find a way to bring joy into it for yourself and like release the pressure.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Rich Roll?

  That pressure valve, um, that's when I was like, and you started writing about it. And I was like, oh, now, now I'm really interested in what you have to say. And, and that's where I think, you know, everything that you've done and undergone, um, that you're experiencing right now is a result of, of like, what happened with that. Right? So it was almost like that pressure valve became too much. You were compelled to like, figure out how to have a different relationship with yourself and sport that then kind of catapulted you on this trajectory of, of personal growth that, you know, is sort of culminating now in, in everything that you're, you're doing and talking about.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I really, it, it is kind of, it was a, you know, a piecemeal process. I think that that kind of set me up in, in taking a step back and saying, okay, like, I need to reformulate my relationship with sport was kind of the first step to then ending up reformulating my relationship with myself.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  And it was just that the sport aspect was easier to address than, you know, the, the fundamental, you know, the, the eating disorder part of it. So I kind of started there. But it is very, I mean, there, it's so, I wish that I could segment them and, and say that they're not, not related, but they're completely related.

• 1:02:59Rich Roll?

  Of course they're related. Yeah.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:01Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:03:09Rich Roll?

  All right. So somehow you get through law school.

• 1:03:13Rich Roll?

  And then you end up in, you end up in, uh, Chicago at Skadden.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  Yes. Didn't you, you had, you worked at Skadden, didn't you?

• 1:03:20Rich Roll?

  Not as a lawyer. I was a, I was a legal assistant in the New York Skadden office, right out of college before law school.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Oh, that's.

• 1:03:27Rich Roll?

  And now I think.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  And you still went to law school?

• 1:03:29Rich Roll?

  I know. That's what everyone says. And that's what I, this is how disconnected from myself I was. Like I had, I was the world's worst paralegal. I was, that place was so huge that I could just hide in my office and like avoid the phone and like pretty much get away with not doing anything. And I became, my, my skillset was like avoiding work.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  That's amazing. I actually knew some associates like that too.

• 1:03:52Rich Roll?

  I mean, I worked there for two years and, and I had a whole crew of like young, you know, right out of college friends and we, you know, we would run around the city. And so I had a great time and it's, it's not totally fair. Like I, you know, I did my job or whatever, but it wasn't exactly a, a fulfilling, you know, environment. And I'm like, man, I can't believe I went to, I just went to law school because I thought that's what you're supposed to do. And I didn't really, didn't really occur to me to even explore doing anything else. But I was there. 1989 to 91, like it was like in the middle of like crazy M and A boom.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:28Rich Roll?

  And that place was like on fire.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:30Rich Roll?

  So I can't imagine like being a lawyer there.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I know. I know. Um, you know, I was in the Chicago office, which I think that helped a little. We were not as crazy as, uh, I think just the New York culture for law firms is really, really tough. Chicago, you get a little bit more of the Midwestern vibe and whatnot. Um, I actually loved being at a firm. Um, I actually really, really enjoyed my time at SCAD. And it was, I was in, um, so I graduated in 2009. So basically right after everything, I mean, Bear, Sterns had collapsed, Lehman's had collapsed. And so I went into restructuring and bankruptcy. Um, so we were very busy, but it was kind of like.

• 1:05:09Rich Roll?

  Business is good.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  Business is good, right? Yeah, the schadenfreude of, of, of all of that. Um, but, um, I actually really enjoyed it. I just, I think for me, I didn't, I didn't see, I, I saw partners and I was like, that's not what I want to do.

• 1:05:28Rich Roll?

  But you, how long were you at SCAD?

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Uh, six years.

• 1:05:31Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:32Rich Roll?

  So that was, you know, you stayed another year or two and you were, you that, that's the partner deal.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Well, uh, God, I know SCAD is a single tier partnership. So it's more like 11 or 12. But I think I just also, I really like, in legal work, I really like being in the weeds. And I really like kind of the drafting and the process and things like that. And then I realized like, as you get older, you look at partners, all their time is spent like the schmoozing, the business, not all the time, but schmoozing, business development. And that just, I was not, I wanted to do like the, the grit work.

• 1:06:05Rich Roll?

  See, I would have preferred the other way around.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  No, I was that person.

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  Somebody else do all that work. Like, you know, you can go lock yourself in that conference room and go through like 300 boxes of documents. I'll go out to dinner with the client.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Networking events, I would find any excuse to avoid them. So I was like, that's, that's not for me.

• 1:06:26Rich Roll?

  Well, and this is the period of time in which you reconnect with being an athlete and you have all this success. And I remember just reading about you and kind of watching this whole thing unfold and thinking like, you're, you're winning every race that you're in and you're working like, I, I know and appreciate like the pressure cooker environment in which you're practicing law. And I just kept thinking like, she's one of the few people that could actually make a living as a professional athlete and define, you know, a new way of being a professional athlete and like, leave the law and like, do this full time. The law is always going to be there. You can, you can go back to these law firms. And I was confused as to why you, you like having both.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I, well, I could technically have made a living as, as a, you know, professional obstacle racer. But for me, it would have changed the character of what I did. I mean, if I thought I put enough pressure on myself to go out and win world championships, when I knew that I could go back to like, you know, my law job, that if I didn't win the world championship, it didn't mean that I wasn't going to be able to eat the next day. So in my mind, if I made it my profession, it would change the character of what I was doing, which is already a very tenuous relationship. I mean, if I, if the competition was getting

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  to me and I'm just like, your ultimate weekend warrior, imagine if that was my livelihood. So it was a place for me of being like, nope, nope, gonna try and still keep that joy in there, which, you know, had its ups and downs.

• 1:08:08Rich Roll?

  You still had to meet your maker with it, even though you kept your job.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  I know. So I don't, I mean, I don't know, had, had I. Decided to to quit and become, you know, a professional obstacle racer. But this is also fair at the very, very early stages that I got in this sport like before anybody would even call it a sport. And today, some people still won't call it a sport, so.

• 1:08:30Rich Roll?

  But it's blown up. I mean, you know, it's it's a huge thing. And you, I mean, you definitely could have stepped out and like made a career outside of the law. I didn't make that choice.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I I never, I never actually seriously considered it. Like beyond just kind of brief moments here or there of being like, well, could I? And I said, yeah, but I'm already almost 30 years old. Who becomes a professional athlete when they're 30 years old?

• 1:08:55Rich Roll?

  You do.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I was like, some people.

• 1:08:57Rich Roll?

  Were there ever moments, though, where you're getting ready? You know, it's Thursday or Friday afternoon and you've got world championships that weekend or some big race where the partner calls and says, hey, we're all meeting, you know, tomorrow, Saturday morning at the firm in the conference room. Like you had to like call it off. Because that's the way that it works.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I there were, I did skip a lot of races last minute. I always booked flights refundable because I just, because I didn't know. Never happened around a world championship. Those I actually did make sure that I took vacation time, even though we know that doesn't necessarily always mean that you're protected. But yeah, I mean, there are, I remember I would be, you know, drafting or sending out emails at 10pm the night before a race. You know, that's just.

• 1:09:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Part of it, or I would finish the race and then go check my email and be like, please, nobody have emailed me while I was out. And they're like, why aren't you responding?

• 1:09:52Rich Roll?

  Where are you?

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I still had BlackBerry at that time. I know, I know.

• 1:09:57Rich Roll?

  You just crawled out of a mud pile after carrying a log through a lake or something.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  And I'd be like, I'm sorry, we didn't have any cell. And that was the issue a lot of these races, there's no cell phone service at a lot of these venues.

• 1:10:06Rich Roll?

  You're in the middle of nowhere.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  So then I'm sitting there thinking like, oh, my God, am I getting emailed from somebody

• 1:10:11Rich Roll?

  That creates more anxiety than just checking it.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:14Rich Roll?

  And what was the the food relationship like when you were competing and at your best and during this phase?

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Um, I think that I was kind of rationalizing everything that I was doing in terms of eating as like a, well, I'm performing well, so it doesn't really.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  You know, Matt, I was like, I'm doing well. So what I'm eating must be okay.

• 1:10:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And doing well is an understatement. I mean, you're suddenly you're on the cover of all these magazines and you're getting all this attention, like the accolades are just raining down upon you. So I would imagine that's disorienting when it comes to really taking honest stock and inventory of your behavior.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that I, to be totally honest, my eating habits were probably have probably been very similar these through the entire time. It's just that.

• 1:11:07Rich Roll?

  It took that many years for it to catch up to you.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably. I mean, that's that I've said, it was like you can delude yourself in your mind for so long that you are doing fine, but the body doesn't forget as easily. And, um, you know, after a while it starts to catch up. And I think I also probably didn't realize at this point, you know, that I was like not getting periods and that my bones were deteriorating, things like that. And so it just it became a after a while, your body will break.

• 1:11:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, you were diagnosed with osteoporosis when you were in high school.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So when I was 16, I think they did, they did a DEXA and, you know, all the Z scores at the time. They don't call it osteoporosis at the age they call like osteopenia. Um, but it had, so I was diagnosed with that when I was 16. I had another one done when I was in my early twenties and it had gotten better. And so I think that they were like, okay, it can reverse and, um, and, um, you know, increase from there. But I did know, you know, I have a history of this and I broke a lot of bones when I was even a little kid because I have just have a small bone frame.

• 1:12:15Rich Roll?

  Right. So you're coming off this, you know, streak of just winning all these races. And then suddenly injuries start to appear. I mean, is that how it kind of begins? Well, first there's the, there's the sort of reconciling with the pressure.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, where was the timeline? So what happened was that I basically at the end of 2015, I had just won like the, my third World's Toughest Matter. And I remember I was ready to walk away, like I was ready to walk away from the sport just because I just, it was. I just felt overwhelmed by the pressure and I almost thought like, maybe I should just go out on top, you know, like won these, these titles and just sail off into the sunset. And I think I was kind of just tired of the circuit. And then I actually discovered ultra running,

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  or I thought, kind of thought about that to give it a go. At this point, I'd also, this was when I, I left Scaten, moved cross country to go to Apple.

• 1:13:23Rich Roll?

  What was that decision about?

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  That decision was, I think I, in my mind, it was partially to have a better lifestyle, more suited to competing. In terms of that, I worked actually just as much now as I probably did at the firm, but it was just not, it's on a more regular type of like hourly, the in-house lifestyle, a little bit more conducive. Also, I knew I wasn't going to be a partner, was, I was pretty middle of the road associate and was not on my radar. And

• 1:13:59Rich Roll?

  It's not freezing cold.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I also wanted to get back west, get back out west, because I'm born and raised in Portland. And so that was part of all that went into it. And I remember coming out to California and seeing like the beautiful trails, the trail had like 10 minutes from the Apple campus and being like, yep, there I, there I am. And so I started getting, targeting ultras and I ran Sean O'Brien down here, the 100K in 2016, got a golden ticket to go to Western States. And I was like, woo, started training a bunch more and knew nothing about how you should like increase.

• 1:14:43Rich Roll?

  No coach, right?

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  No, no coach.

• 1:14:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You're so smart. What's wrong with you?

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  I know. No coach. Well, because in, with obstacle racing, the vast majority of my training was actually CrossFit. And then I ran maybe like 15 to 20 miles a week, but it was nothing. And then within, I look actually at my training logs, I did kind of keep one. And I went from running 15 to 20 miles a week to then prepping for Western States and running like 80, 90 miles a week in like two months. So that's when I broke my femur. So that was the first injury.

• 1:15:15Rich Roll?

  Maybe anyone would have broken their theme.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  And you know, and so, and I think that the, the femoral stress fracture, I was able to write off as kind of like a, the training was, was not dialed in. Um, and so with one bone injury, you can probably do that. But when they start to pile up, it's no longer.

• 1:15:35Rich Roll?

  So you, you have this femoral fracture, which is no small thing, but you don't, I mean, it's impossible to get you to sit down for five minutes. Like you're just doing all kinds of crazy training around it.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:47Rich Roll?

  Like eight mile crutches, hikes and whatever.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Well, the funny thing is, and people, people talk about that Spartan race that I did on crutches and that had nothing, that was, that was mainly for, I still, I still am glad that I did that because that was for like the adaptive athletes and seeing a different experience. That wasn't about trying to race. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, as soon as I was cleared to do anything, which was the, literally the day after I got the diagnosis, I was in the pool with a pool buoy between my legs, trying to swim, trying to do anything that I could to like still be an athlete. And I think also at this time, all of a sudden, I had been managing my eating disorder, but then I was then looking at four months

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  of no running and I didn't know how to feed myself.

• 1:16:42Rich Roll?

  Right. Cause part of, part of managing your eating disorder meant an exercise routine, right? Like, you know, your calculus about what to eat is very much informed by how much you're training.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:54Rich Roll?

  And when you're benched, suddenly that equation gets thrown out the window and you've got to figure out a different way of dealing with it.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I also, I think that I could, I go, well, so many of my other athlete friends have that exact same feeling too. When they all of a sudden are injured and they go, I don't know how to eat or like, I should probably stop eating as much. And so for me, I sat there and thought, okay, well, that's just normal. That's not an eating disorder. They don't have eating disorders. So does that mean I have an eating disorder? Like, you know, so I was part of that rationalization.

• 1:17:28Rich Roll?

  It's hilarious that you're confused about asking yourself that question, though.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Well, I thought I said, well, I mean, I did have an eating disorder, but is this part of it now? Um, and I think that that's really hard to untangle.

• 1:17:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 1:17:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So it becomes indelibly clear, though, when, when you suffer the second fracture, right? Like, when you finally are able to kind of train again and then you fracture your sacrum.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, I, I mean, the, the femur stress fracture was hard for me because I was trying to do everything I could to stay in shape and to get back for world championships. And, um, I didn't realize it at the time, um, but I dropped a lot of weight when I was injured. Um, which, and I, it was not intentional. And, um, and I think a lot of it, I also am a body type that, and I've realized this too, is that when I run, I actually, my body gets larger. Um, I put on muscle and things like that and versus, and I build it really easily. Um, but yeah, and so I got, so I dropped a lot of weight and then ended up with a sacral stress fracture,

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  which was clearly like a sacral stress fractures can be training errors, but they're generally like, there's something going on in your body. That's not right. And, um, that was when I kind of started to think like, this is getting out of control again. Cause also what happens is when you, um, when, you know, when you start to, when you start to like lose weight, you can also then unintentionally get back into like the mental state that there, there's all this research about how.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  About, you know, set points and people and their set points and that when you go into like a starved state, you're like, the obsessions become that much worse. Are you, are you aware of the key study?

• 1:19:28Rich Roll?

  Hmm, I don't think so.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Okay, so back in the forties, it was the Minnesota starvation experiment, where they basically took, um, you know, a group of healthy adult men and they starved them. And you can't do this nowadays because I mean, like, clearly, there's a lot of reasons.

• 1:19:46Rich Roll?

  There's a constitutional amendment.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly. But these men volunteered to be housed and basically starved. I can't remember how much food they gave them, but it was so minimal. And they started exhibiting all of the traits that you see people with eating disorders.

• 1:20:04Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. That could actually provoke it in people.

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  You can provoke it if you starve people down and they, I think they saw very much, because the point of the study was actually to figure out what was going on in like the Nazi concentration camps. But it's still to this day, one of the best studies and the only really study that we have about the effects of starvation on people and what that does to their mental state.

• 1:20:26Rich Roll?

  So what is that specifically? Like what, they become more body dysmorphic or more like fearful of food?

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the more that they, you actually like withhold food from people, then they, they will become fearful or they'll start hoarding it. You know, they'll start rationing it. So you see with a lot of people with eating disorders that they may take a very long time to eat a meal or something. So these men would be like, well, I only get this amount of calories a day, so I will stretch it out. They would start obsessing over cookbooks, recipes. You know, nowadays you probably see this on like Instagram, people looking at food porn.

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  And they would, just by not feeding your body, then all of those things became so much worse.

• 1:21:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  And it's funny, and actually, the first few weeks that I was, or the first week that I was there at Opal, and I remember finally, like, I was full, like really full. And I go, you know what's funny? I've stopped obsessing over food because I'm not hungry. When you're fucking hungry, like you obsess over everything. It's amazing that when you actually feed yourself, the thing, the thoughts go away.

• 1:21:38Rich Roll?

  That goes away.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:39Rich Roll?

  That's amazing.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  But it's not as simple as that. But yeah, so it's an interesting. It's interesting what actually just the physical starvation will do to your mind. And it doesn't have to be, you know, when people think starvation, they think zero food.

• 1:21:55Rich Roll?

  It would be interesting to, to apply a similar study to what goes on neurologically during intermittent fasting or the seven day fast, because it's so the rage right now. And, you know, are we having the real conversation that we need to have around this? Like, you'll hear a lot of anecdotal evidence that, oh, I'm more mentally focused, or, you know, I can pay attention better. But what is happening hormonally and neurologically that's contributing to that? And how much of that is healthy versus, you know, leading you towards that, you know, disordered relationship with food?

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  Well, and I think that the more that you get, you see people do that, then with like their cheat days. And then they just go like hog, you know, they'll restrict, restrict, restrict, restrict their food intake. And then just like one day a week, go hog wild and then go back to, so it's just this.

• 1:22:43Rich Roll?

  I don't understand that at all.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  And, you know, and, and I think that, I think that it's tough because I don't think diets and things like that cause eating disorders, but if you have a predisposition to that kind of stuff, that's clearly not helping. And, you know, we've, we're taught so much that we should not listen to our hunger cues or that, that we should, you know, we do anything to like suppress our appetites. Like, when did having an appetite become a bad thing? You know, there's so much about the culture right now that's tough.

• 1:23:17Rich Roll?

  And I think with, with the, you know, the diet wars that we're seeing, or the way that people talk about diet on social media and on YouTube, et cetera. It's, it's, it's easy for people with disordered eating proclivities to hide behind whatever protocol they're advocating, whether it's vegan or paleo or keto or, you know, fat, whatever it is. You can kind of become, you see people who, you can kind of tell, like, this person has a fucked up relationship with food. And they're there just, you know, like singing from the rafters about how great a certain diet is. But beneath that is an unhealthy obsession, like this obsessive kind of thing that's driving the whole machine.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And then there's a lot of. There's a fair number of studies that show that if you, you know, if you forbid certain things in your life, you're seriously going to then clearly crave it more and more. And so the people who say, I can

• 1:24:18Rich Roll?

  You have to make it evil.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And, and, or you can only eat between X periods of time. And we are creating this machine. And it's really just this entire, the thing is now, now it's not even, people say it's not a diet. It's a lifestyle change. And I'm like, no, no, that's still diet culture, just under a different like

• 1:24:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  Um, and if you look at so many of these diets, are consumers selling products? They're selling things to us.

• 1:24:46Rich Roll?

  It's amazing when a new kind of diet comes on, you know, online, then how quickly the marketplace comes in to like, fill it with all of these products and it becomes like, co-opted and packaged in a certain way, and then marketed and sold to us.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, if you look at now, everything on the shelves is keto this, keto that, you know? And then, and it's no different than growing up in the nineties. It was low fat, fat-free, everything. And I think that's really hard for people to kind of like sort through a lot of the times.

• 1:25:22Rich Roll?

  Especially when we have to eat.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:24Rich Roll?

  Like, I can just not drink or do drugs. And it's, you know, obviously this is elementary, but like, you have to eat every day.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:32Rich Roll?

  So you're, you're forced to confront your condition in the most, you know, tactile way, three times a day at least.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, and it's, what's interesting, and I've told you that, um, you know, I have a history of, of going to AA, OA.

• 1:25:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  Because back, you know, 10, 15 years ago, a lot of people treated eating disorders like an addiction. Cause that was a, you know, model that we had, you know, that AA model worked very well. I remember going to, um, a lot of AA OA meetings during, um, during college or during law school. And, um, thinking like, man, this OA thing doesn't seem to be working well for anyone. And I think because there's a different, AA works great because you guys like, or, you know, you can be with other people and not, and be around alcohol, things like that. Doesn't work for food because you have to eat to live, you know? And so it's not as simple as just avoiding it.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  And a lot of the mindset has gone away from treating food like an addiction. That it's not, it can't be treated like an addiction. And so, I don't know, the, the science is still morphing on it and the, the treatment models, but.

• 1:26:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't suffer from that condition and, you know, I, I, I don't have a scientific opinion on it. But I think that the, if there is a disease aspect to it, it's not the food, it's the impulse to control. Like we were talking about before and, and 12 step, whether it's OA or AA is all about like getting you to, you know, turn your gaze inward and do an inventory of how you're behaving to get clarity on, on who you are and like make amends and, and, you know, be able to get, you know, clear on what your character defects are and then have this community that holds you accountable.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and that's, it was actually kind of sad for me when I remember looking back into treatment, you know, two or three years ago, because I loved the 12 step culture and I found it very, very helpful for me and being like, wait, no one's really doing that for eating disorders anymore.

• 1:27:41Rich Roll?

  I have friends that are in OA.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:44Rich Roll?

  It seems to do, I mean, I have some friends that have been for a long time. They find it to be helpful. I've never been to an OA meeting, but, um, you know, a lot of them are, are people who are cross addicted. Like they're people that I know from AA, they just go to both, you know? It's all the same thing. Like the more I kind of, you know, live on earth, I start to see all of these things as one thing and something that every single human being, you know, can identify themselves on a spectrum. Like we're all guilty of behaviors or thought patterns, activities, substances, whatever it is that we compulsively do on some level. Maybe it's minor for a lot of people, but that we can't seem to stop ourselves from doing,

• 1:28:25Rich Roll?

  even though we're suffering adverse consequences. Like, hey, why do you, why are you constantly dating assholes? Or, you know, you know what I mean? Like whatever, why, you know, why do you have to go to the mall three times a week? Or why, you know, why are you watching soap operas at, at 11 a.m.? Like all of us, you know, have our little vices and, you know. In certain respects, the person who can't pull the needle out of their arm is the easy case because the problem is so easy to diagnose and treat. Whereas somebody, food, it's harder. The relationship thing, it's even harder. It's really hard to deconstruct what the actual problem is. But I think they're all manifestations of something very similar that we all share, just in being human.

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think one of the things that I've realized with a number of people that have reached out to me after I opened up about this, a lot of people had started emailing saying, "I don't have an eating disorder, but I have X, Y, and Z, or I've struggled with X, Y, and Z." I'm like, "Food is my coping mechanism. We all have a coping mechanism. Food was that for me." But underneath, it's all the same language. And then a part of me, and then I get in my mind, and I'm like, "Why? Then why are... I mean, what is it about the human condition than that we're all currently in this day and age, it seems

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  that everybody seems to be struggling with these something underlying things?"

• 1:29:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I don't know. Maybe life's just too easy and comfortable.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  I think so, too. People talk about that's why, you know, why ultra-marathons and everything...

• 1:30:06Rich Roll?

  Right. This is why this whole world exists.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. People have to figure out how to inflict some pain on themselves. And I'm part and parcel of that.

• 1:30:16Rich Roll?

  To feel alive.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:30:18Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:20Rich Roll?

  Well, you've had your journey through this from super competitive to finding joy in it, and now this latest chapter. Well, first, actually, first I want to get into what actually happened at Opal. So you go to the treatment center. What is the experience? What is the protocol of trying to understand how to resolve this issue and get you on a better path?

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, I mean, every treatment facility is a little bit different. So I was in a day patient. So it was like eight to eight to six P M. And then you do all your meals and your snacks there. And it really is 10 hours a day of talking about your feelings, which I actually think is incredible.

• 1:31:13Rich Roll?

  It's awesome.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  Here is how I think the world, this is how I think the world is gonna be a better place. Everybody needs to go talk about their feelings for 10 hours a day.

• 1:31:20Rich Roll?

  Everybody should go to treatment.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:31:23Rich Roll?

  Treatment's the best.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Anybody can benefit from treatment.

• 1:31:25Rich Roll?

  You get to like opt out of your life and just go to this place and all you do is work on yourself.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:31Rich Roll?

  The whole time.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  It is, but I think that I finally, what I needed to do was I had to create space for myself to finally actually confront everything. And, you know, the first few days, I remember kicking and screaming. I remember calling up my parents, calling my friends, being like, no, this place not for me.

• 1:31:50Rich Roll?

  They let you use the phone?

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, so it wasn't, I stayed with my sister. So it was, it was eight to six P M. And then I had.

• 1:31:57Rich Roll?

  Oh, I see.

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  I slept at home.

• 1:31:58Rich Roll?

  I was wondering, because you were like posting on social media throughout.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I didn't, some people got mad at me that I didn't clarify that I wasn't in a residential or inpatient facility.

• 1:32:08Rich Roll?

  Because you owe them an explanation.

• 1:32:10Speaker 01

  Right. But I was like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to spend my time being like, this is a partial hospitalization program and it's, you know, it's 50 hours a week.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  But yeah, so I didn't warrant the inpatient level of treatment. But I think that a lot of what they used at Opal and Treatment Modality is radically open dialectical behavioral therapy, which is for people with diseases of over control, which really spoke to me because everything in my life has been about that over control piece. And then just trying to take a step back and when you, when you strip away all of your coping mechanisms, so you strip away.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  The ability to control food. I stripped away, you know, the exercise sport piece, um, which, you know, I'd kind of, I'd kind of done the work on the exercise sport piece through injury and through rediscovering joy. And then all of a sudden you're sitting there and you're looking at yourself and you're like, okay, now this is me. Like I've gotten rid of my coping mechanisms. And you kind of like, you feel very, very raw. And you know, I'm sure you can relate to that.

• 1:33:26Rich Roll?

  Super vulnerable. What about the illusion that you're in control at all?

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:31Rich Roll?

  Let's start there. The whole like impulse to control is actually just a fabrication.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:33:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, you can control what you put in your mouth, but you're not really in control of anything.

• 1:33:42Speaker 01

  It's controlling you.

• 1:33:43Rich Roll?

  Like decoupling that relationship is like the big puzzle piece.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:48Rich Roll?

  I think. And really just like embracing the fact that like, you're not in control.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:33:54Rich Roll?

  And that the path to healing is about letting go and surrender.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:58Rich Roll?

  Which for a type A personality who's holding on to everything and is trying to will their way in the world, that's like telling somebody that you have to, you know, just wave the flag of defeat. So it's a very difficult pill to swallow and to really just even grok.

• 1:34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and it's also, it's so humbling too, because for the first few days there, I'm like, wait, I can't go to the bathroom by myself, you know, like I, somebody has to go to the bathroom and flush the toilet.

• 1:34:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You're in a mental institution.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Right. And that you, you, you, I, and there is so much like, okay, like I, I just fully surrender. And it is something that is so humbling in so many ways. Um, and I think that that's the, and I'm, I almost, I almost like you get that fight or flight response. And after that first week, I was almost like, I'm packing up. I don't need this. Packing up, going back down to San Jose. Um, but I'm so glad I stuck through it. Um, and then by the end of my time there, I was almost like, no, wait, but no, I don't want to go. I just want to talk about my feelings.

• 1:35:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, then it gets scary to go back into the world.

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. And I think that that was.

• 1:35:12Rich Roll?

  I have to make my own decisions?

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  That was part of my thinking. It was actually part of the things that kept me out of treatment, I think for a while and like seeking treatment because. I was afraid that, or I'd seen stories of people who almost like, there's just like revolving door of treatment facilities, because like, then you don't know anything else, because the big bad world is scary out there. Well, it would be great if we could all sit around and talk about my feelings for 10 hours a day, but that's not how life is. So it's almost like, you know, not staying there too long at the same time.

• 1:35:47Rich Roll?

  So what is the protocol now? Like, how do you make sure? Cause you've been in, you know, treatment centers before and have seen what has happened when you haven't had like, active, you know, aftercare and, you know, really made your recovery a life priority.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, you know, that, I mean, I think that's the greatest unknown. Um, and that's, so you set up, I set up as much guardrails and support as I could, um, coming back here. Um, I started work initially part-time and then I was still doing more like an intensive outpatient. So I was kind of doing the two and then you slowly step down. And then right now I have kind of an outpatient team and then really just setting up a support network. Um, and for me, I have a great support network, but it's making sure that I actually use it. Um, and actually reaching out and being, saying like, hey, I need help. And this thing that

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  we talked a lot about, um, at treatment is outing yourself and just saying like, hey, guys, I have to out myself right now. I'm having really bad disordered thoughts and I just need to tell somebody and put it out there. Cause when I put it out there, then it doesn't hold as much power over me.

• 1:36:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you have to do that in real time when it's occurring, because the tricky thing is when that moment arises, when you're, you know, staring at a plate of food and you're thinking about like, not eating it away. It's too late. Like, then they're like, call somebody, but that, that train left the station a long time ago, maybe months ago. Like, it's, it's about the daily habit of checking in with people and people who know you and can monitor like, hey, you're a little off today. What's going on? And kind of compelling you to be honest.

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It's having that support system and network. And, and really for me, fully owning that there are some things that I can't be completely self-reliant on right now, you know? And, and that's a bitter pill to swallow for somebody who likes to be fully self-reliant, but. There have been times in coming back to the Bay Area and coming back to work where I realized like I need to set up like I need to set up dinners with folks right now to like go out and eat with them because it's better. I do much better in like a social scenario than that than when I'm by myself.

• 1:38:04Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, now you're publicly on the hook.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  I know. Well, so now I have the entire world as accountability.

• 1:38:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know, right?

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  So it's a double. I mean, it's a double edged sword because I did have some people reach out to me and say, oh, well, now everybody's watching you. You can't screw up.

• 1:38:21Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  And all of a sudden, my heart was like, oh, my God, I'm like, I'm human. I'm gonna screw up. I've screwed up. Like, we're all gonna have screw ups. And I think it's, you know, with with alcohol or drugs, it's very easy to name your screw ups because it's like, I did the substance or I didn't do the substance. Food, it's very, very slippery.

• 1:38:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not binary.

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  No, it's very. It's like, did I restrict that meal a little? Or did I, am I really eating to hungry? You know, so.

• 1:38:50Rich Roll?

  You gotta really be in touch with yourself and and, you know, be willing to have that kind of honest dialogue going on all the time. Like, it's about your intentions as much as anything else, right?

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:39:01Rich Roll?

  But, you know, the the authenticity and the vulnerability with which you, you know, kind of have offered this up to the world, I think, is honorable and and and super courageous. And I don't say that in a perfunctory or light way. Like, it was, I know it was a move that, like, you, you know, had a lot of consternation about, like, should I, should I, you know, should I talk publicly about this? You don't have to. You have no obligation to. You made that decision. I was on the, I went to the website for Opal because I wanted to see what this organization is about. And they they had like, there's like a slogan on the homepage that is beauty in imperfection and authenticity.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:41Rich Roll?

  And that's lovely, right?

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:39:43Rich Roll?

  Because we're all imperfect. And I think the the path towards being that fully integrated person who's not living with that kind of dissonance requires, you know, the courage to be authentic in real time, you know, and to be human and to be, you know, exposed on some level. And, you know, I can't imagine what it felt like after you wrote that blog post and you like hit, you know, publish on it. Like, walk me through that.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  It was actually the most freeing experience that I've ever had. I sat down and I balled my eyes out for the next half an hour or so.

• 1:40:23Rich Roll?

  As you were writing it or after you?

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  After I published it. I mean,

• 1:40:26Rich Roll?

  Just a catharsis.

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  The catharsis, because I had been writing it, you know, over like a span of since, I mean, I left treatment at the end of June and then so it took me like a few weeks to kind of wrap my brain around it. And I was so anxious. I remember that day before I was like going to publish it. It was all done. It was sitting. It was ready to go. And I remember actually going to the pool to swim that morning and then just like, it was like the best swim of my life because it was just like anxiety or something like that. I don't know fueled.

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  But in in putting it out there, it finally, I just, I cried because it was just, I finally felt true to myself.

• 1:41:16Rich Roll?

  And what was the motivation behind doing that?

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  Honestly, a lot of it, I hate to say that there was a selfish motivation because it was, it was almost a, an alignment for myself.

• 1:41:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  You know, people are like, oh, you're so great. You're inspiring other people. And I'm like, that's

• 1:41:39Rich Roll?

  Now, the discomfort of living in that kind of dissonance becomes intolerable.

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, and I don't, I can't say why exactly I felt the need to out it to the entire world as opposed to just, because I understand there are portions of yourself that you can keep close, you know, at hand. You don't have to let everybody know your dirty laundry. But for me, it was very important to have that be a part of my story, considering I've been so open and vulnerable about many other things, but not this. And then that kind of selectiveness didn't sit well with me.

• 1:42:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  And just to be able to be, feel free. I felt very, very free after I published it. And I went for a run the next day and I was like, I was the most

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  Just free feeling. And then people started giving me negative feedback and then that one wiped me off the

• 1:42:44Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, first of all,

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  The initial 24 hours was great.

• 1:42:47Rich Roll?

  I don't know. I didn't, I'm sure, you know, well, look, first of all, shame can't survive the light, right? So whatever shame you were harboring, the only way out of that is to do exactly what you did. And I'm sure there's trolls out there, whatever, but like, all I saw was this overwhelming, like, outpouring of like, love and support. Like, it was like, it was like a viral moment in the, in the endurance sports world.

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  I did, I honestly will say, I expected a reaction. I did not expect that type of attention to it. And I'm blown away in the best way possible. I mean, I, I was, it was amazing. Like, I mean, I get kind of like choked up thinking about it because people were so supportive and so great. I'm still like sorting through emails to respond to people. And I think, for me, it was very important to talk about it to you at a time where I have not recovered. And, and that was, that was, that's a bit tough, because

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  I think that you see so many people talk about their disorders in the past, or their addictions in the past, but it comes from a recovered perspective. And I, you know, I got a lot of feedback saying like, thank you for being open before you're there, you know, because it's not as simple as that. And, and I go back and forth on whether like, total freedom is possible. I feel like the voices get quieter, like, things like, they get easier, the further and further, like, you get into recovery. But I think that you always kind of have to be vigilant. And I, maybe you can speak to that, too.

• 1:44:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm of the mind that, that there is no recovered. There's recovery, there's being active in your recovery. I would never consider myself recovered. You know, and, you know, I had a relapse eight years ago, after I'd been sober for 13 years. Like, I'm very aware of how fragile it is and how, how How it requires, you know, constant attention and focus. And that's not to say that, you know, your situation is the same. You know, it's different, but I would be curious about like, is there a sense like that there is a recovered when it comes to relationship with food? I just feel like that impulse is always there and keeping it at bay, you

• 1:45:17Rich Roll?

  know, is important and there's tools for doing that. But to fall under the belief that it could disappear altogether and never reappear, I think is dangerous.

• 1:45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's different mindsets. I think some people think that if you don't give, if you don't believe in that fully recovered is possible, then, you know, you're never going to get there. But I, maybe this might be more of the unpopular opinion, but I do kind of similarly believe to what you do is that, you know, like you can be in a very, very good place of recovery, but you still need to be mindful of things. And especially the longer, you know, like this has been 20 years of my life. And a lot of this stuff has become so ingrained and automatic in me. And so it's almost in some ways like

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  exposure therapy and unlearning habits and things like that, that didn't happen overnight, you know?

• 1:46:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And it's all about where you are in the moment. Like my relationship with this is like, what am I doing today? Like where, where is my recovery? Like in the middle of this experience that we're having right now? Because I know people with 30 days of sobriety who like are super sober. And I know people who've been sober for 35 years who are out of their minds.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:46:36Rich Roll?

  They may not drink, but they're not, they don't have, they don't have like emotional sobriety, which is really kind of like where there's no, there's no, there's no destination for that because you can always iterate and improve on. You know, who you are as a human being. So it's less about where are my cravings for alcohol right now than than it is about like, what's up with my character defects?

• 1:46:59Rich Roll?

  I like being married to my wife. Like, I don't want her to leave. Like, so I have to like be on top of this shit.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  It's funny, as soon as as soon as I started to realize that, like, the food was no longer like, the scary issue. And I was, God, now I have to work on myself.

• 1:47:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:47:16Speaker 01

  It's like, now I have to like, kind of like, underpay.

• 1:47:18Rich Roll?

  But that's the whole thing.

• 1:47:19Speaker 01

  That is the point.

• 1:47:20Rich Roll?

  The universe is driving you, like, this is, this is all about that.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  Right. And I, and I think, and my big thing is that I'm a thinker. And I've always like, no, no, no, I know my feelings. For so many years, I was really good at thinking about my feelings, like, really, really good at, like, thinking about my feelings, but not actually like, feeling anything. And I think that actually in our society, we prize a lot of thinking over feeling. You know, a lot of people follow, like, the Stoic, like philosophies and things like that. And, and, um, once I finally start to like, tap into, what am I feeling right now? And like, then just like, not even, not even assigning, like, not assigning judgments to that. But and then just actually like, being like, feelings are valid, too. It doesn't all have to come from the mind.

• 1:48:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:48:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think if you're, you know, things like Stoicism are great for like, corralling your emotional state.

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:17Rich Roll?

  But I think when it comes at the cost of, of valuing your, you know, emotional landscape, then you're missing a bigger picture of what it means to be a fully integrated human. You know? And the thing about feelings is, they change, right? So when you feel like you're gonna die, or this is so painful that you can't go one more minute without picking up the drug, or

• 1:48:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:42Rich Roll?

  vomiting, or whatever it is your thing is, to be able to just be, be with it, and feel it, and experience it, knowing That it will go away, like it will dissipate, it will morph into something else.

• 1:48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that you don't need to use your coping mechanism of choice to, to get, you know, to get rid of that, to manage that feeling.

• 1:49:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because you're so terrified of feeling that feeling that you'll do anything to numb it out to change your state.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  Right. And the longer that we go without feeling those feelings, then the more scared we become of them.

• 1:49:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  So it's that entire.

• 1:49:18Rich Roll?

  The more powerful they become.

• 1:49:19Speaker 01

  Exactly, that entire avoidance. And so that's why I've been a huge fan of just like exposure therapy in a lot of ways.

• 1:49:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, one of the things you do every day, and you share it a lot, is that gratitude lasts.

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. That has been, and that actually started my friend Matt Davis, who's actually a fellow podcaster, but he, in recovery himself, and kind of started this movement, and it's just on Instagram, and it's 10 things a day that you're grateful for, which actually seems like a lot, and it can be a lot. But it's been very kind of like a, it's a different, it's a tool in my toolkit now, on a daily basis.

• 1:50:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a big 12-step thing, doing that.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:50:07Rich Roll?

  Because it's one thing to kind of intellectually grapple with gratitude, but feeling it is like a practice. Like, I don't, I'm not like inclined to walk around grateful. Like, I have, you know what I mean? Like, I'm like thinking about what I don't have, you know, all the time. So, and that's not healthy or good.

• 1:50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:27Rich Roll?

  Like, I have to go out of my way to go, what am I grateful for? And not just go, oh, I'm grateful for this, this, and this. Like, let me try to feel that.

• 1:50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:35Rich Roll?

  Like, it's foreign.

• 1:50:36Speaker 01

  It is foreign. I think there, there is a part of me, though, that with the gratitude, a lot of people are moving towards, I mean, the power of gratitude, and it's great. But I also think that. There are, there's an issue that if we then feel like if we're ungrateful or if we have negative feelings, and that's not right because we have so much that we should be grateful for. And then we beat ourselves up that we are, you know.

• 1:51:00Rich Roll?

  Shame on you.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. But it is a very good like daily practice.

• 1:51:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we have to be grateful for all our human flaws too, right? I suppose. So, all right, so you were in the treatment center for like 90 days?

• 1:51:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was, it was about three months I was in Seattle, yeah.

• 1:51:21Rich Roll?

  I think that's the appropriate time.

• 1:51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, everybody's.

• 1:51:25Rich Roll?

  You need at least three months.

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  Everyone's journey is different. I think that they say in terms of like neural reprogramming and things like that. I think three months is probably like, is a good period of where you can start to actually like, you know, change those neural pathways.

• 1:51:40Rich Roll?

  Right. I was in for 100 days.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:43Rich Roll?

  Just like down the street from where you grew up.

• 1:51:46Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:51:46Rich Roll?

  You know, Newburgh?

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, in Newburgh.

• 1:51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:51Rich Roll?

  We can talk about that later. But so here you are, you've emerged from this experience. You've shared it, been transparent, you've been open. And now you're kind of being perceived in this new light, like now the, it went from like, oh, you're so inspiring for what you do athletically. To like, oh, it's so inspiring that you, you know, allowed yourself to be vulnerable. Like the strength in vulnerability that's really connecting with a lot of people. And I think this is really, it is, whether this is your intention or not, like it is this amazing opportunity for you to be of service to a lot of people. I mean, we have an epidemic of disordered eating and eating disorders. There are so many people that struggle with this, that suffer in silence.

• 1:52:35Rich Roll?

  And to be, you know, this sort of beacon of hope in, in all of its, you know, flaws and all of that, given that you're early in this process. I think is, you know, is, is really a beautiful new, you know, chapter for you.

• 1:52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, you know, I don't, I, I, look, I don't have a crystal ball to let you know like where I'm going to be and, and, but it is. You know, for me, it's really an opportunity to kind of live all parts of my life. Like I, like I said, I think I said, I was like, I don't, I don't want to be like the eating disorder recovery girl. I don't want to be the athlete. I don't like, this is just me. Like I'm super flawed. I'm super complex, just like everybody else out there. And this is just another piece, you know? So I'm just trying to live authentically and stumbling through and figuring this all out. Um, and um, to me, it's been very, very connecting to so many different people.

• 1:53:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, what I hear in that is a healthy relinquishment of control. Like you can't control whatever the media narrative is going to be around this. And, but you do have the ability to reframe your own story and to make it more expansive than Amelia, the, the, you know, obstacle course champion, or Amelia, the ultra athlete, or Amelia, the, the, the attorney, like you're a spiritual being having a human experience and all of its, you know, wondrous beauty and, and pain. Where this goes, we don't know, but I would imagine this has now put you in a, in a, in a situation in which you have to figure out yet another relationship with sport, right? Like, how are you now kind of venturing forward in, in that world?

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I spent a lot of time and a lot of my work in treatment was kind of, was being very curious about my relationship with sport and about my identity as an athlete. And where that, where that fits in, in my life. And so I'm still, I still have a pull to sport. Um, it's not going anywhere. I think for me, it's very much um, more for the experiences now. I, I have, I have an urge to compete and I actually, I think I went to one portion of myself, or I went to like one side, or I used to be all about the competition and the winning.

• 1:54:59Speaker 01

  And then I moved to this, it doesn't matter, winning doesn't matter, competition doesn't matter.

• 1:55:04Rich Roll?

  I'm going to enter these races where nobody finishes.

• 1:55:06Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. And now I'm kind of recognizing like, my therapist told me, she goes, you know, wanting to win a race isn't a bad thing. It's just what you do when you don't win that race. And um, so I still, I spent a lot of time, you know, working and evolving that, that relationship with the competition and lots to say on that at some point, I'm sure. But so now I'm I'm looking, you know, to to get back into racing again and get back into sport. Just probably not, you know, I kind of just things that kind of light my soul on fire. When I talk to my coach about it, he's always and I talk to him about a race and he goes, well, does it light you up?

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  And I and that's kind of my my gauge about where I really want to go with this. And so I've kind of taken a step back in the early stages of recovery from competing, just because it's a lot to add into the mix.

• 1:56:03Rich Roll?

  Well, I'm glad you have a coach.

• 1:56:04Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, I do have a coach. He has, he has been with me from, I mean, he inherited me with the well inherited. Like I started working with him and then a week later I ended up with my stress femur, stress fracture and that was not his fault at all, clearly because it was already there. But has actually been like the greatest source of me really, you know, owning this journey and seeking treatment and recovery and whatnot.

• 1:56:29Rich Roll?

  Are you physically like cool now? Is everything?

• 1:56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, aside from when I kicked a bench in the sauna and broke my toe the other day.

• 1:56:36Rich Roll?

  Oh, no.

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  That was annoying, but physically beyond that, um, yes, I'm I'm healthy and it's, it, as I told everybody, um, running feels great when you feed yourself properly.

• 1:56:49Rich Roll?

  Imagine that.

• 1:56:50Speaker 01

  My, my, my calcaneal stress fracture healed in record time when I was there in treatment.

• 1:56:55Rich Roll?

  You're right because you're putting nourishment in your body.

• 1:56:57Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:59Rich Roll?

  Well, I think, I told you this before, but I think that you and Berkel should do Otilo because that would be super fun, you know, and it's so different and like there would be no expectations and it's difficult and it's cold and miserable and awesome and you know, just it's unlike anything you've ever done before.

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:19Rich Roll?

  And to do it with a teammate also makes it not really about you and your performance.

• 1:57:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:25Rich Roll?

  And I think you, I think you, you know, with all the swimming you've been doing, I think that could be fun. I want you, I want you guys to do that.

• 1:57:31Speaker 01

  I want to, we've, we've talked about it. I know they have a race down here.

• 1:57:35Rich Roll?

  There's one in Catalina.

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  Catalina, which I think would be kind of a good like testing of it. I'm doing my first ocean swim tomorrow, so.

• 1:57:42Rich Roll?

  Oh, you're with Caroline, right?

• 1:57:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, with Caroline. And, uh, but in that, that's very different ocean swim than, you know.

• 1:57:50Rich Roll?

  Is it a race or you're just going down and swimming there?

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Because I haven't done, I've actually never swam in the ocean before. But it's like a nice, warm, summer ocean.

• 1:58:00Rich Roll?

  Oh, it'll be great.

• 1:58:01Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:58:01Rich Roll?

  It'll be awesome.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  I'm like, I'm not a great swimmer. Nobody's ever actually watched me swim, but.

• 1:58:07Rich Roll?

  I wouldn't worry about it. Yeah. Well, I wanna, um, I wanna kinda round this down by talking a little bit about, you know, for people that are listening who either are suffering from this, or they're a parent who has a child suffering from this, or they have a family member, something like that, I think it could be really instructive and helpful to kind of walk through,

• 1:58:30Rich Roll?

  you know, how, how, you know, people can manage this, like what to look out for, you know, how to try to help somebody who is in this condition and like what not to do.

• 1:58:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:44Speaker 01

  Well, I think first of all, one big thing to recognize is that it's not about the weight. And I think, or when you, if you, in terms of approaching somebody, um, that you never know how people are gonna take it. If you say, hey, noticed you've lost a lot of weight, or you've like, you know, like, so it's very, it's more about pointing out to people, like behaviors, or, um, them withdrawing, or just really just checking in on them, being like, I noticed you've been kind of like not showing up to group runs, or group dinners, or, you know, like, what's going on? Because as I know, my doctors always told my parents

• 1:59:29Speaker 01

  is like, you can't recover for her. Like, you can't force her to recover until she's ready. Um, but it's kind of just that, like, reinforcement that you are there for them. And that, you know, in, in, in checking in on them. And I think that sometimes, though, when things are dire, like if it does seem to be like a medical necessity state.

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  Sometimes you have to be the bad guy. I mean, I my when my roommates intervened with me in college, I didn't speak to them for the next several months, like literally was so angry. But they, you know, helped save my life. Um, and so in situations like that, sometimes if you're willing to be the bad guy, it can be very useful to just go straight for it.

• 2:00:24Rich Roll?

  The tough love thing.

• 2:00:25Speaker 01

  The tough love. And I'm sure, and you know, like anybody who's ever had an intervention done for them, like you hate everybody in that moment. Um, but it can be completely necessary.

• 2:00:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it can be. And sometimes it works and often it doesn't because that person isn't willing. So I think for anybody who's listening, who's considering intervening on somebody else's situation, it's important. I mean, there may be a good reason to do that and it might be advised, but I think it's important to have a healthy relationship with outcomes and not be attached to whether it's going to work or not.

• 2:01:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, absolutely. And no into going into it that, you know, there is a risk that could completely implode your relationship. Um, and, um, but I, you know, it's, it's,

• 2:01:17Speaker 01

  I look back at all of this now. I'm like, man, you know, I'm trying to figure out like what actually like stuck, you know, the times that people, what people said. Um, and

• 2:01:28Speaker 01

  there's no rhyme or reason to be totally honest because I've had interventions or people say things to me at times where it didn't, it didn't resonate. And then other times where it's just an offhand comment that.

• 2:01:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, timing is a weird thing with this.

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:01:45Rich Roll?

  Right. Um, you have to, you have, it's like, you've got to live your life in a certain way and get to the point where you really want to do something, you know, and, and nobody can compel that willingness.

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  No, no. And I, I think it, well, unless you clearly have like a minor child or things like that, there are, there are situations.

• 2:02:03Rich Roll?

  But you can't make somebody want it.

• 2:02:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:02:05Rich Roll?

  I mean, you can make somebody go to a place.

• 2:02:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:02:08Rich Roll?

  And you can, you know, get them sent somewhere, but. You can't actually catalyze their desire to actually be healthy.

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  No, and, and they'll go through the motion and I did it. I went through the motions. I did everything that, you know, you, you said I should do. Um, and, um, you know, got discharged and went on my way. Um, and so, and then I've had people say, okay, well, then Amelia, what's different about this time then, you know, and honestly, I could say, well, who knows, but I think that for me, it's this time it came from myself. Um, and that's really like the key difference, you know, as opposed to somebody else kind of pushing you towards it.

• 2:02:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the thing for you is just, like I said before, like is really having, um, a setup that holds you accountable, like a community of people that you talk to and, you know, a protocol that's keeping you on the, on the path.

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so, so important. Um, and, and with, you know, anybody and going through any type of recovery from any type of mental illness or mental health issue.

• 2:03:22Rich Roll?

  What are the signs to look out for? Like, what are some things that, that, that people that are in the grips of this thing do like early before it's obvious where like if a parent's listening to this and like, what should they be looking out for?

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  Um, I will say I'm aware it's hard to generalize because they are so different, but I would say skipping mealtimes are like finding excuses. This is my own experience. So finding excuses to not eat with people. Um, you know, subtly kind of like restricting food intake, um, being very kind of secretive around food is something, um, to look out for.

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  Body image talk, things along those lines. That, well, but then that's tough because there's so much.

• 2:04:12Rich Roll?

  We're in, we're in crazy town now.

• 2:04:14Speaker 01

  I know, I know. And so it is tough to say, like, when somebody like pokes out themselves and I was like, I don't like how I look. I'm like, is that, is that the news order or is that?

• 2:04:23Rich Roll?

  Right. Are you like looking at the Kardashians all day long in your Instagram feed? What are you doing?

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 2:04:29Rich Roll?

  I mean, as a parent of two daughters, like, we're, you know, we're in the middle of all this right now. And with our 15 year old, like, she just deleted everybody. She's only follows her friends now.

• 2:04:39Speaker 01

  Good.

• 2:04:40Rich Roll?

  For, you know, and that's a big part of it.

• 2:04:42Speaker 01

  I think that's huge. I think that, and I know me personally, I have unfollowed anybody who's like, seems to be promoting that type of like diet culture and, and that, you know, anything that wouldn't be, that wouldn't be conducive to like my own recovery. But I do think that, you know, with, with teenagers and, you know, with kids, the, probably one of the best things that you can do as a parent, and I say that's actually not as a parent, is just being a role model in like, in how you, how you approach food, you know? And because people don't realize that kids pick up on a lot of stuff, you know?

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  So if you sit there and demonize certain foods or, you know, a lot of diet talk, like, kids can pick up on that. And I say this, and you know, like, that was never, that was never in my family. My family didn't have any of that disorder or diet talk yet. I still have an eating disorder. So at some point for parents, I think it's also that, you know, it's, it's not always on you, you know? It's, it's not your fault as well.

• 2:05:49Rich Roll?

  And I think as an athlete, like in, in the athletic context, it's very easy to hide your disorder. You know, under the mask of like training and performance. And I think that there's, you know, I think there's a lot of people. You know, amateur athletes and endurance sports and other sports that are actively in the throes of this. And, you know, it's just not evident. It's harder to spot.

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  It's harder to spot because you can frame it in terms of like, well, but I'm doing it for performance.

• 2:06:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and men too, I should say. This is not just a female thing.

• 2:06:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think it's even tougher for men because I think it's not as, I don't want to say socially acceptable to have an eating disorder, but there is like, you know, there are not as many men speak out about it.

• 2:06:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a little bit of, there's a weird like, kind of like tinge of taboo around that, I suppose.

• 2:06:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there are, there are some, Mario Ferrelli has like spoken out about his and whatnot. But I think that, you know, in the athletic world, yeah, it's absolutely difficult. And what's unfortunate is that some of the times that I think that I have actually been struggling the worst have been the times where I have looked the most health, like the most quote unquote, normal outwardly. And that there are many people in normal sized or larger sized bodies who are really, really struggling, but because they don't have the physical manifestation of it, it's harder to pick up on.

• 2:07:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no one would identify it.

• 2:07:18Speaker 01

  Right. And luckily, the, you know, the eating disorder treatment model and everybody in the industry has finally started to realize that you can have an eating disorder of any size body. So that's been very important. So I think in terms of picking up, it's picking up, you know, signs, it's mainly about behaviors because body size is not, is not going to indicate anything.

• 2:07:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The social withdrawal too.

• 2:07:47Speaker 01

  I think the social withdrawal, yeah. Anytime, I think really, you know, avoiding mealtimes, skipping that kind of stuff is a big red flag.

• 2:07:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. All right. Well, let's, let's land this plane with one final question, which is, is there anything that?

• 2:08:09Rich Roll?

  Like you wanna say to like, is there anything that you feel like is misunderstood about you and this story that you wanna like make clear? Like, I feel like it's been completely embraced, but I'm not you. So I just wanna make sure that you have the opportunity to like really speak your truth and not be misunderstood.

• 2:08:32Speaker 01

  I am aware that there are folks out there who believe that like I should not be engaging in sport and also be in recovery. And I understand, I think that that's can be a completely valid concern. It is also something that I've worked through a lot, like with my, with my treatment team. And everyone's relationship with movement is entirely different. And so for some people, it shouldn't be a part of the recovery. For others people, it can be. And I continually, it's part of mine now, but you know, I continually, every single

• 2:09:12Speaker 01

  day, constantly question that and very, very always curious and like, and as, as we've talked, as you talked about and that, you know, am I trading one compulsion for another? But I think the key is just to be very curious about your intentions and your motivations behind things. And, you know, it's, I'm always a work in progress, as we all are.

• 2:09:35Rich Roll?

  We all are. Anybody who says otherwise, don't trust them.

• 2:09:38Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm just like, I don't, I don't have anything figured out. I'm just stumbling around, like putting the pieces together and.

• 2:09:45Rich Roll?

  How are your parents doing?

• 2:09:47Speaker 01

  They're good. I think that they're, I, I love my parents. They're so fantastic. And they've just, they've been kind of those like silent supporters that, that will be there for me. And I think that they're, they're really, they're excited to see me, not so much, I mean, yes, like.

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  You know, be in recovery for the universe, but just to be more like living person embracing life.

• 2:10:18Rich Roll?

  That's what that's the way I kind of look at this whole thing from 10,000 feet. Like you're on this journey to becoming a fully integrated, actualized, you know, authentic human being. And you had to take these disparate, you know, puzzle pieces and find a way to put them together. So like you're assembling yourself in a new way. And I think the more you create that alignment and that consistency in all these various areas. And, you know, writing this blog post and being here today are a big part of that. It's gonna just, it's gonna lead to something like amazing and beautiful because the power, they're so powerful to be in that place of truth and honesty where you're not shying away or feeling shame or feeling like, you know, you have to like couch your words because you

• 2:11:03Rich Roll?

  don't want to say this or that. Like now you can just be who you are and stand in that and look people in the eye. And that's just like a, it's, it's like a very powerful place to be. So I think whatever's coming next for you, I'm super excited to see what that is.

• 2:11:19Speaker 01

  Thank you. I, I am excited as well, you know, I think I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful.

• 2:11:26Rich Roll?

  Cool. All right. Well, I think it was courageous of you to come here today and share all of that. So I acknowledge you for that. And I thank you for that. And I think it's going to be helpful to a lot of people. So I appreciate it.

• 2:11:38Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:11:38Rich Roll?

  All right. And if you want to connect with Amelia, AmeliaBooneRacing.com.

• 2:11:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:11:43Rich Roll?

  Amelia Boone on all the social platforms.

• 2:11:46Speaker 01

  Except for Instagram and ARBoone11.

• 2:11:48Rich Roll?

  Oh, ARBoone, ARBoone11. What happened there? Did somebody take your name?

• 2:11:52Speaker 01

  No, I was very late to the Instagram game and I also didn't expect that. I mean,

• 2:12:00Speaker 01

  so I was just like, I was gonna try.

• 2:12:02Rich Roll?

  Whoever has that name should give it to you.

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  I tried it. I don't know who has Amelia Boone.

• 2:12:04Rich Roll?

  You're in Silicon Valley. You can't get that sorted out?

• 2:12:07Speaker 01

  I tried to get AmeliaBoone.com too. And that person did not want to give it up.

• 2:12:11Rich Roll?

  Who is that person? Wow.

• 2:12:11Speaker 01

  He's, keeps it for his granddaughter or something like that. I'm serious. I've tried to hunt him down and pay him for it.

• 2:12:18Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, come back and talk to me again sometime. Peace.

• 2:12:27Rich Roll?

  How was that for you guys? I thought that was very powerful. I just want to thank Amelia again for having the courage to share her story so beautifully and publicly. And I would like to say that if you are struggling with an eating disorder and are in need of support, please don't wait. Please call the National Eating Disorders Association helpline. That number is 1-800-931-2237. For a 24-hour crisis line, text NEDA to 741741. Again, that's NEDA to 741741. For more information and background on Amelia, check the show notes on the episode page on my website, richroll.com.

• 2:13:12Rich Roll?

  And please reach out to her directly and let her know how this one landed for you. You can share your thoughts with her on Twitter, @AmeliaBoone, or you can follow her on Instagram, @ARBoone11. So do that. If preparing your meals stresses you out, check out our Plant Power Meal Planner. Affordable price, it's just $1.90 a week. It provides access to thousands of nutritious and delicious plant-based recipes, grocery lists, grocery delivery, and importantly, access to a team of experienced dietary coaches seven days a week. So to learn more and to sign up, visit meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on the show on Apple Podcasts.

• 2:13:56Rich Roll?

  That really helps with new people discovering the show. Tell your friends about your favorite episodes. Share the show on social media. Subscribe to the program on YouTube, on Spotify, and on Google Podcasts. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, behind-the-scenes production, and show notes. Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for videoing and editing the podcast for YouTube, as well as all the shorter clips that we share and spread around on social media. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Ally Rogers for portraits. DK David Kahn for advertiser relationships.

• 2:14:36Rich Roll?

  And the Be Still interstitial music and the music courtesy of Analemma. Appreciate all of you guys. I love you. I'm nothing without you guys. The audience is so important to me. I do not take your attention for granted. So if you could be so kind, I will see you back here next week with... Personal development author, sort of a publishing phenom, Mark Manson is his name, and he's coming by to discuss the enormous success of his book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, and his latest book, Everything is Fucked, a book about hope. It's a good one, people. Don't miss it. So I'm going to leave you with a short little clip. Until then, if you feel like you need help, if you are struggling with any addiction

• 2:15:19Rich Roll?

  or disorder or depression, please reach out for help. Do not wait. Raise your hand and make yourself known because you are not alone and help awaits you. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

• 2:15:35Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, any sort of self-improvement by its very nature is going to be difficult. Like, no self-improvement feels great. If it feels great, you're probably not actually changing very much. You know, any, any real change is by definition painful, stressful, difficult. And so if you're going to write very honestly about those subjects, one thing I discovered while I was blogging is you kind of have to like, mix a little bit of honey into the medicine. And so that's, that's where like the humor started, kind of the irreverent attitude, some of the stories. Because I just noticed that if you're dropping F-bombs and you're telling some crazy story about this time you got drunk in college,

• 2:16:18Speaker 02

  then having that difficult conversation about life purpose or whatever it may be, after that, it goes down much better for people. Like, people are more open to it. You know, the same way we need to challenge ourselves physically, I think we need to challenge ourselves intellectually. I think we need to challenge ourselves emotionally. And I guess you could argue we even challenge ourselves spiritually.