119: A Detailed Guide How to Live Life The Gentle Way. "Mind Over Muscle", by Jigoro Kano

0:00:00 - Opening: Last moments before a plane crash on Sept 11th. Excerpt from "The 11th Day", by Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan. https://amzn.to/2IX8UtO 0:19:48 - "Mind Over Muscle: Writings From The Founder of Judo", by Jigoro Kano. https://amzn.to/2pKGRG5 2:12:30 - Final Thoughts and Take-Aways. 2:25:18 - Support: JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, Super Krill Oil and Joint Warfare and Discipline Pre-Mission http://originmaine.com/origin-labs/jocko/, THE MUSTER 005 in DC http://www.extremeownership.com/washington-dc-005. Origin Brand Apparel and Jocko Gi http://www.originmaine.com, withJocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com, Onnit Fitness stuff, http://www.onnit.com/jocko and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, Way of The Warrior Kid 2: Marc's Mission http://read.macmillan.com/mcpg/way-of-the-warrior-kid/?utm_source=authorsite&utm_medium=authorsite&utm_term=jockofollowers-jockopreorder&utm_content=na-preorder-buynow&utm_campaign=9781250156792&et=44236-a110035216-n20273057, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, http://amzn.to/2szgaEj and Jocko Soap. https://irishoaksranch.com/storefront/jocko-soap 2:57:56 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 119 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:12Jocko Willink?

  On September 11th, 400 miles from the collapsed World Trade Center towers, three dozen passengers and crew aboard United Flight 93 remained in airborne purgatory. Starting at 9:30 a.m. for some 30 minutes, 14 of them managed to telephone either loved ones or operators on the ground.

• 0:37Jocko Willink?

  Public relations man Mark Bingham got through to his aunt's home in California. "This is Mark," he began, "I want to let you guys know that I love you in case I don't see you again."

• 0:52Jocko Willink?

  "Then I'm on United Airlines Flight 93.

• 0:57Jocko Willink?

  It's being hijacked."

• 1:00Jocko Willink?

  Two other callers from the plane not only provided information but also gleaned vital news from those they phoned. Tom Burnett, chief operating officer for a medical devices firm, made a number of brief calls to his wife, Deena.

• 1:16Jocko Willink?

  Speaking quietly, he asked her to contact the authorities and told her that a male passenger had been stabbed later, that he had died. A woman, perhaps a flight attendant, was being held at knife point and the hijackers claimed they had a bomb.

• 1:36Jocko Willink?

  Jeremy Glick, a salesman for an internet services company, also managed to phone. In a long conversation with his wife, Liz, Glick said the hijackers had put on these red headbands. "They said they had a bomb. They looked Iranian."

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  "The bomb was in a red box," he said.

• 2:01Jocko Willink?

  The couples told each other how much they loved each other.

• 2:07Jocko Willink?

  Glick said, "I don't want to die."

• 2:11Jocko Willink?

  And his wife assured him that he would not. She urged him to keep a picture of her and their 11-week-old daughter in his head to think good thoughts.

• 2:25Jocko Willink?

  Burnett's wife, who had been watching the news on television, told him that two planes had crashed into the World Trade Center. "My God," he responded, "it's a suicide mission." By the time he phoned a third time after news of the crash into the Pentagon, she told him about that, too. Burnett seems to have been seated beside Glick and apparently relayed all this information to him. Were they to do nothing, the two men must have agreed, they were sure to die anyway when the hijackers crashed the plane.

• 3:05Jocko Willink?

  They resolved to fight for their lives. "A group of us," Burnett told his wife, "are getting ready to do something." "I'm gonna take a vote," Glick said on his call, "there's three other guys as big as me and we're thinking of attacking the guy with the bomb." So began the minutes of brave resistance, the clearly defined act of courage that has lived on in the national memory. Glick and others were equipped in more ways than one to confront the hijackers. Glick was six foot one and a former college judo champion.

• 3:46Jocko Willink?

  Burnett, at six foot two, had played quarterback for his high school football team. Mark Bingham was a huge man, six foot four, and at thirty-one, still playing rugby. A few years earlier, he had fended off a mugger who had a gun. His mother got the impression, as he talked from Flight 93, that her son was talking confidently with a fellow passenger. She felt that maybe someone had organized a plan.

• 4:16Jocko Willink?

  At 9:42, a GTE Verizon supervisor based near Chicago began handling a call from yet another powerfully-built Flight 93 passenger.

• 4:28Jocko Willink?

  Todd Beamer, a star Oracle software salesman, was married with two sons and his wife was expecting again.

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  He first dialed his home number, but either failed to get through or thought better of it. Instead, explaining that he did not want to upset his pregnant wife, he asked the phone supervisor Lisa Jefferson to pass along a loving message.

• 4:57Jocko Willink?

  As they talked, Beamer suddenly exclaimed, "Shit, oh my God, we're going down, Jesus help us."

• 5:04Jocko Willink?

  From the passengers around Beamer came prolonged shrieks of terror.

• 5:10Jocko Willink?

  Then he said, "No, wait, we're coming back up, I think we're okay now."

• 5:17Jocko Willink?

  Shaken, Beamer asked Jefferson to say the Lord's Prayer with him, "Our Father, who art in heaven."

• 5:27Jocko Willink?

  Just before Beamer and the operator had begun talking, Cleveland Control lost Flight 93's transponder, the signal that indicates an airplane's location and altitude. At 9:55, the hijacker pilot set a navigational aid relating to the plane's direction. He was heading, it indicated, for Washington DC.

• 5:53Jocko Willink?

  Jeremy Glick, still on the phone to his wife Liz, said, "I know I could take this guy with the bomb."

• 6:00Jocko Willink?

  Then, joking, he had mentioned that the hijackers had knives, "I still have my butter knife from breakfast."

• 6:09Jocko Willink?

  Todd Beamer, continuing his conversation with the GTE supervisor Jefferson, told her that he and a few others were getting together to jump the guy with the bomb.

• 6:22Jocko Willink?

  "Was he sure that that was what he wanted to do?" "Yes," came the response, "I'm going to have to go out on faith.

• 6:30Jocko Willink?

  I don't have much of a choice."

• 6:37Jocko Willink?

  The plane was flying erratically again. Operator Jefferson heard the sounds of an awful commotion, raised voices, more screams. Then, "Are you guys ready?"

• 6:51Jocko Willink?

  And Todd Beamer's voice saying, "Let's roll."

• 6:56Jocko Willink?

  A phrase that in family life, he'd like to use to get his children moving.

• 7:04Jocko Willink?

  "Okay," Jeremy Glick told his wife Liz, "I'm gonna do it." His wife told him he was strong and brave and that she loved him.

• 7:14Jocko Willink?

  "Okay," he said again, "I'm gonna put the phone down, I'm gonna leave it here and I'm gonna come right back to it."

• 7:21Jocko Willink?

  Liz handed the phone to her father, ran to the bathroom, and gagged.

• 7:30Jocko Willink?

  Flight attendant Sandra Bradshaw was in the galley boiling water for the passengers to throw on the hijackers. On the phone to her husband, she signed off quickly, "Everyone's running up to first class, I've gotta go, bye."

• 7:46Jocko Willink?

  The cockpit voice recorder registered the moment the hijackers realized what was happening. At just before 9:58, a hijacker asks, "Is there something, a fight?" There's a knock on the door followed by the sounds of fighting, then in Arabic, "Let's go guys, Allah is the greatest, Allah is greatest, oh guys, Allah is greatest, oh Allah, oh Allah, oh the most gracious."

• 8:13Jocko Willink?

  Then loudly, "Stay back."

• 8:18Jocko Willink?

  A male voice, a native English speaking voice, that Tom Burnett's wife has recognized as that of her husband, is heard saying, "In the cockpit, in the cockpit," followed by a voice exclaiming in Arabic, "They wanna get in here, hold, hold from the inside, hold."

• 8:35Jocko Willink?

  Then from several English speakers in unison, "Hold the door," and then from a single English speaker, "Stop him," followed repeatedly by, "Sit down, sit down," then again from an English speaker, "Let's get them."

• 8:52Jocko Willink?

  Flight 93, now down to 5,000 feet, had begun rolling left and right. Jeremy Glick's father-in-law, listening intently on the phone his daughter had handed to him, now heard screams in the background. On the cockpit voice recorder, there is the sound of combat continuing, then in Arabic: "There is nothing. Shall we finish it off?" "No, not yet. When they all come, we finish it off."

• 9:30Jocko Willink?

  Then from Tom Burnett: "I am injured." The flight data recorder indicates that the plane pitched up and down, climbed to 10,000 feet, turned. Glick's father-in-law, phone clapped to his ear, heard more shrieks, muffled now, like those of people riding on a roller coaster.

• 9:55Jocko Willink?

  In Arabic, on the voice recorder: "O Allah, O Allah, O gracious." In English, in the cockpit: "If we don't, we'll die."

• 10:15Jocko Willink?

  In Arabic: "Up, down, up, down, up, down." From a distance, perhaps, from Todd Beamer: "Roll it." Crashing sounds, then in Arabic: "Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest." "Is that it? I mean, shall we put it down?" "Yes, put it in and pull it down." "Cut off the oxygen, cut off the oxygen, cut off the oxygen, up, down, up, down, up, down." More violent noises for as long as a minute, and then apparently from a native English speaker: "Shut them off, go, go, move, move, turn it up."

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  Then in Arabic: "Down, down, pull it down, pull it down, down."

• 11:06Jocko Willink?

  Apparently from an English speaker down, push, push, push, push, push.

• 11:15Jocko Willink?

  In Arabic, "Hey, hey, give it to me, give it to me, give it to me, give it to me, give it to me, give it to me."

• 11:25Jocko Willink?

  Intermittent loud air noise on the cockpit recorder.

• 11:33Jocko Willink?

  Moments later, in Arabic, "Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest."

• 11:47Jocko Willink?

  There are sounds of further struggle and a loud shout from a native English speaker, "No."

• 11:59Jocko Willink?

  Two seconds later, in Arabic, in a whisper now, "Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest."

• 12:19Jocko Willink?

  Jeremy Glick's father-in-law, still listening on the ground, heard high pitched screams coming over the line Glick had left open when he left the join, to join the rush to the cockpit.

• 12:33Jocko Willink?

  Then wind sounds followed by banging noises as though the phone aboard the plane was repeatedly being banged on a hard surface.

• 12:45Jocko Willink?

  After that,

• 12:48Jocko Willink?

  silence on the phone.

• 12:53Jocko Willink?

  Silence on the cockpit voice recorder.

• 13:07Jocko Willink?

  And that is an excerpt from a book called "The 11th Day", which came out in 2011 by Anthony Summers and Robin Swan.

• 13:24Jocko Willink?

  And we all know what that silence meant.

• 13:30Jocko Willink?

  Flight 93 crashed into a field near the Diamond T Mine in Stony Creek Township, Somerset County, Pennsylvania, killing 33 innocent passengers.

• 13:44Jocko Willink?

  Seven innocent crew members.

• 13:49Jocko Willink?

  And four demonic hijackers.

• 14:00Jocko Willink?

  That day changed

• 14:04Jocko Willink?

  my world. And it changed our world. The world as we knew it.

• 14:14Jocko Willink?

  And it commenced years and years

• 14:18Jocko Willink?

  and years of war that has cost

• 14:25Jocko Willink?

  so many lives.

• 14:32Jocko Willink?

  And at some point on this podcast,

• 14:40Jocko Willink?

  I'm sure we'll go into more details about the horrors of September 11th. There'll probably be multiple podcasts, but for today, I wanted to focus on one aspect of one part of the life of one man on that flight, the man named Jeremy Glick.

• 15:06Jocko Willink?

  Who,

• 15:09Jocko Willink?

  by all accounts, was an amazing human being. A son, and a husband, and a father.

• 15:21Jocko Willink?

  But for those of us

• 15:24Jocko Willink?

  who fight or who train martial arts in general, something caught our ears when we heard about the heroics on Flight 93.

• 15:36Jocko Willink?

  We heard that Jeremy Glick was a martial artist, that he was a wrestler, and that he was a judoka.

• 15:45Jocko Willink?

  And as a wrestler, he was an competitive all-state wrestler for Saddle River Day School in northern New Jersey. If you know anything about New Jersey wrestling, it's an extremely competitive wrestling state.

• 16:01Jocko Willink?

  And beyond that, as a judo player,

• 16:05Jocko Willink?

  Glick was an American National Collegiate Judo Champion.

• 16:12Jocko Willink?

  While he was a student at the University of Rochester.

• 16:18Jocko Willink?

  And in September of 2008,

• 16:22Jocko Willink?

  seven years after the incident, September 11th, there was a memorial ceremony at the crash site in Pennsylvania. And the United States Judo Association placed a granite stone there as a memorial with an inscription on it.

• 16:45Jocko Willink?

  And the inscription reads, "The United States Judo Association promoted Jeremy Glick to the highest rank of black belt

• 16:57Jocko Willink?

  for living the principle of judo.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  Mutual welfare and benefit, sacrificing his life for our country, September 11th, 2001."

• 17:15Jocko Willink?

  Living the principle of judo and that's a bold statement.

• 17:23Jocko Willink?

  It indicates something very powerful and very meaningful.

• 17:29Jocko Willink?

  And as a patriot and as a martial artist and specifically as a jujitsu practitioner. Which is where judo was derived from. I wanted to explore a little deeper into the principles of judo to see. What we can learn from it.

• 17:48Jocko Willink?

  And I don't want to go into the full details of explaining the relationships. Between jujitsu and judo, but it is a very close relationship.

• 18:00Jocko Willink?

  It was one of Jigoro Kano's top students and Kano is the creator of judo. But Maeda that brought jujitsu to Brazil from Japan and introduced jujitsu to Carlos and Alio Gracie. And that's the beginning of Brazilian jujitsu as we know it today. And Maeda even called it jujitsu. He didn't call it judo and from what I understand at that time. Even Kano had not been actually calling it judo in Japan. He hadn't renamed it yet. He was still calling it jujitsu and some people were calling it Kano Jujitsu. Or Kotokan Jujitsu.

• 18:45Jocko Willink?

  But jujitsu, especially Brazilian jujitsu is without question rooted in judo. And if you trace it back just a little bit further, judo is also rooted back into jujitsu. That's where judo came from. Judo came from jujitsu.

• 19:02Jocko Willink?

  And mixed in with all that, there's all kinds of. Evolution and there's changes and there's politics and there's history, but there's that thread that ties them all together. And that thread can be recognized in.

• 19:20Jocko Willink?

  Many of the principles that are shared both in judo and in jujitsu.

• 19:25Jocko Willink?

  The same principles that played a role in Jeremy Glick's attitude on that.

• 19:32Jocko Willink?

  Clear sunny September day.

• 19:36Jocko Willink?

  And perhaps we can all learn something from those principles and to look at those principles. I thought it would be best to go to the source and I have a book called Mind Over Muscle that is, it's, it's a compilation of writings from Jigoro Kano. And Kano was a very interesting person. He was a, he was an educator. He was a pioneer in sports. He worked with the Olympic Committee. He was a jiu-jitsu practitioner, eventually founded Judo and he founded the most famous Judo school, the original Judo school, the

• 20:20Jocko Willink?

  Koto Kano. And the book, like I said, as, as you can tell by the title, it's a compilation of different sources of his writings and there's a little bit of overlap and repeat and I'll do a little bit of that. But what I like about it is it gives a good overall view of the ideas and the vision that Kano had for Judo.

• 20:45Jocko Willink?

  So, I know there's a lot of Judo practitioners out there and obviously a lot of jiu-jitsu practitioners out there that listen to the podcast and everyone knows that these two are closely related and sometimes there's, I guess you'd say, tension between the two. Sometimes.

• 21:08Jocko Willink?

  But the fact of the matter is they're so closely related that it's, it'd be more, it'd be more intelligent instead of look for the tension between the two, to find where the two can complement each other.

• 21:22Jocko Willink?

  So, here we're going to the book and once again, the book is Mind Over Muscle: Writings From The Founder Of Judo, Jigoro Kano.

• 21:35Jocko Willink?

  And here we go to start it off. The purpose of jujitsu. So interesting that he starts this off, talking about jujitsu. He's not even talking about judo yet. The original purpose of jujitsu was to practice a method of combat. While combat may have been at the core of jujitsu practice. It also had the related goals of physical education and mental training. There's little dispute that because training to fight involves moving the body in various ways. Jujitsu indirectly became a form of physical education. But for the same reason, it also became a method for training the mind. All forms of combat require ingenuity. And the use of various tricks and devices. So all forms of combat. All forms of combat.

• 22:21Jocko Willink?

  This is important.

• 22:23Jocko Willink?

  Because when if you're, if you're a soldier, you're a marine or you're an airman right now. We're talking about everything that you do. And I'll tell you what, if you're a business person, we're talking about what you're doing too. All forms of combat require ingenuity and the use of various tricks and devices. So in the course of jujitsu training, the mind is unconsciously trained in many ways. Courage, composer, composure, and other traits that are beneficial in life can also be developed. Now, I'll tell you what, this is important.

• 22:55Jocko Willink?

  Because people ask me a lot like.

• 22:59Jocko Willink?

  You know, how'd you figure all this stuff out, Jocko? Like, people ask me that. And. You know, I always try and explain, you know, like it was a long course and I was in the military for a long time. And I had an open mind and I listened and paid attention to the people that were leading me. And I paid attention to the good ones and I paid attention to the bad ones.

• 23:17Jocko Willink?

  But I'll tell you, if I didn't, I, I, jujitsu opened my mind up and did these things. And again, unconsciously, like I started to perceive things the way that I was learning jujitsu. And that's why, and I've got some, I've got, you know, I've got friends that I've gotten into jujitsu over the years. And you can tell, and I don't know what makes some people get the bug and some people don't get the bug. But. If you get the bug and you start to think in a jujitsu mindset. Then you'll.

• 23:46Jocko Willink?

  It'll really open up your mind. Now that being said, there's some people that are heavily into jujitsu, but they don't apply jujitsu to the other aspects of their life, which is a big mistake. It's a big mistake. You've got to apply it both ways. And I think that's one of the things that Kano was trying to do with Judo was to ensure that you did that, to ensure that his students did that.

• 24:10Jocko Willink?

  Alright. Back to the book. It was my belief that with a few improvements, jujitsu could become a comprehensive method of physical education, intellectual training, and moral education. I therefore spent several years developing my ideas and finally established the Kodacon Judo. I did this by thoroughly researching the jujitsu that existed up until the time, up until that time as much as possible, keeping what I felt should be kept, discarding what I felt should be discarded, thoroughly studying the techniques and theories and establishing them in a way that would be most applicable to today's society. He's not even talking about just combat. He's talking about, like, he's not just talking about fighting. He's like, talking about applying these things to society.

• 24:55Jocko Willink?

  So, there's a little bit of, I think he was young when he did this too. He established the Kodacon at a very young age. I want to say he was like 22 years old. He was really young. So he studied jujitsu, thought some things were good about it, thought some things were bad about it, and said, "I'm gonna make my own deal."

• 25:13Jocko Willink?

  Now, here we talk a little bit here. There were various reasons why I chose not to use the term "jujitsu", which described what was ordinarily practiced, and instead employ the name "judo". The main reason was that "do", the "do" part of Judo, it means "way",

• 25:33Jocko Willink?

  is the major force, is the major focus of what the Kodacon teaches, whereas jitsu skill is incidental. I also wanted to make it clear that Judo was a means of embarking on the way. So, he saw this as like a complete, a complete life system, right? Not just fighting. This is the way. Judo is the way for him. And that's why he, instead of calling it jujitsu, he called it, you know, not techniques, but like, the way.

• 26:04Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, when we talk about jujitsu today, people often think of a technique in which one does only dangerous things such as choking an opponent and bending his joints, or even in extreme cases, killing him. Essentially, we think of something that is harmful to the whole, to the body while offering no benefits. True jujitsu does not espouse this. In particular, the Koto-kon judo I devised never involves doing anything dangerous. I cannot stress enough that what I advocate is far from a violent or dangerous sport.

• 26:37Jocko Willink?

  Now, sure, I understand the principle there, but just so everyone knows, judo doesn't play around. If you've, if you've gone with a high level judo player, you are getting thrown hard and aggressively onto your head. It's, it's a brutal sport. It's, uh, it's very aggressive.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you think that that's how, or that's what, because when it comes down to the essence, it's kind of like, and this is just me totally guessing where judo, well, as it is now, it's like, okay, the goal is basically to, to put the guy on his back. That's it. Put him down on the ground. Not to hit him, not to knock him, not, put him on the ground, right? It's kind of seems, okay, that's not really violent. That's kind of the little friendly competition. Put him on the ground. Now with any competitive situation, guys are going to get after it and it slowly just evolves into all these crazy things.

• 27:34Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't evolve, it escalates.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, escalates even just the whole way. So even can, uh, consider like basketball, for example, the goal, put that ball in that basket. That's it. You can go from here, come close, layup, whatever. Then you, you get this competitive drive, these people, athletic abilities, all this stuff. Now it's turning into weird slam dunks now, right? You didn't have to slam dunk that thing, but it's still the same thing, putting the ball, you know, in the thing, just in this weird aggressive.

• 27:58Jocko Willink?

  I guess, yeah, I guess, yeah, I guess, I guess a layup. Compared to a tomahawk slam dunk, right?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:06Jocko Willink?

  And if you compare a, uh, let's say some sort of a basic takedown compared to like a full Ipon head smash.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:16Jocko Willink?

  I could see your, I could see your comparison.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying though?

• 28:18Jocko Willink?

  There's an escalation.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then the escalation.

• 28:20Jocko Willink?

  In his mind, he was like, hey, look, this is just a takedown.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:22Jocko Willink?

  You tell that to a 21-year-old judo competitor that's got you in the air. I know, just a takedown.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:27Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna pay the man.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right. Just like, you know, a basket, a basket, you know, oh yeah, he made that basket. No, but he slammed on you and, you know, embarrassed you in front of it. You know, like it, it goes into this whole different realm, but the essence is still there, though.

• 28:42Jocko Willink?

  Just a basket.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Just a basket.

• 28:44Jocko Willink?

  Just a takedown.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:46Jocko Willink?

  All right, here we go. Uh, back to the book. The organization of Kodokan Judo is basically the same today as it was when I established it. But at that time, when explaining judo, I divided it into three parts. Its use as a fighting method, martial art, as a training method, physical education, and as a method of mental training, including the development of the intellect and morals and the application of the principles of judo to everyday life. See, this is again, this is what's interesting to me is, and he said it was subconscious, like I subconsciously, especially in the beginning with jiu-jitsu, I, I, and I'll tell you, it was beyond just me applying jiu-jitsu to like my life and to what I had learned

• 29:28Jocko Willink?

  about combat. I also took what I had learned about combat and applied that into jiu-jitsu, right? Like, I, I, I said, oh yeah, you know what this is like when you flank someone, right?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:40Jocko Willink?

  But even, even when I first learned, I, I, one of the, one of the biggest wake-up calls that you get early in jiu-jitsu is like, oh, what I need to do is attack your neck, and when you defend your neck, I take your arm.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:52Jocko Willink?

  That's a flank, right?

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:53Jocko Willink?

  That's just a straight-up flank. That's, that's a game changer. Like, that's a complete game changer. When you realize that, that's a complete game changer. Well, the, there's a seal buddy of mine that had been training, when I first started out, he'd been training for like a year. No, but he'd been training off and on, kind of bits and pieces. And so then I started training hardcore, like every day.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 30:15Jocko Willink?

  So after like, two weeks, like literally two weeks, I went and trained with him and I, and I got him like a bunch of times. And I was all pumped up. And, and I said to him, I was like, hey, you know what? The mistake that you're making is you're trying, you're going for my arm and I know you're going for my arm and I know how to defend that. I was like, you gotta go for something else. And then like, a week later, we rolled again and he got me. He did what I told him to do to me.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:41Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, oh dang.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 30:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang. So that was a big wake up call. It's a big, not even, it's, it's a revelation when you realize, oh, you, you've got to do, you've got to set, you've got to flank the person.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:52Jocko Willink?

  That's what you have to do.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:53Jocko Willink?

  Big wake up call.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  So crazy when you see two people rolling and all they're doing is flanking each other. And you're flanking the flank, you know, it's like, whoa, and he gets deep.

• 31:01Jocko Willink?

  But what, what's interesting is as I started working with like leaders and teaching about leadership, how important the idea of what flanking is from a leadership and a, and a human interaction perspective. On other such, you gotta flank people. You want to attack that ego?

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 31:17Jocko Willink?

  All right. Back to the book. Two methods of instruction are used. Kada, which is form, and randori, which is free practice. It's what we call in the jujitsu, rolling. When establishing the Kotokan, I employed a method that emphasized randori. And by which kada naturally came to be understood during randori practice. This is rather, so he focused on rolling a lot when he established Kotokan. Pay attention, this is very interesting.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Randori.

• 31:46Jocko Willink?

  That's like, it's free change, it's rolling. It's rolling.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Just gotta remember that.

• 31:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Use it.

• 31:51Jocko Willink?

  This is rather like teaching composition without using a grammar book or teaching the basis of grammar while teaching how to write an essay. So this is like, hey man, write this down. Are you gonna make some corrections? And like, that's, that's basically rolling live, right? When there were only a few people undergoing the training, this was not a problem. But the number of beginners gradually increased and it became impossible to teach kata at the same time as randori. So a few years after I established Kodacon Judo, I created 15 kata for throws and 10 kata for combat. Called kime no kata, which meant forms of self-defense. So, he realized he couldn't teach the same way. He couldn't teach the masses. Mm-hmm. So, wha- you know, that's, that's a big change, right?

• 32:35Jocko Willink?

  There's a big, big change. For anyone that's not into martial arts, there's a big, big difference between rolling and learning kata. And matter of fact, we make fun of kata, right? I'm not saying that's a good thing. Yeah. But we, I, I shouldn't say we completely make fun of it, but like, I'll see Dean. And, let's say, he's, I can tell he's tired. You know? He's looking all worn out. Mm. And I'll see him, and I'm like, "Oh yeah, hey, what's going on, man? You wanna train some kata today?" Meaning, "Hey, are we just gonna go through the motions, like not act-" Drill, you know, drill. No, no, we're gonna train. Right? So, that, when I say make fun of it- Yeah, you don't make fun of it. Because, because what we call kata, basically in jiu-jitsu, we call it drilling. Yeah. Right? You're gonna drill this. Yeah. Drill, drill, drill. Which drilling is part of winning.

• 33:20Jocko Willink?

  You gotta drill to win. Right? Andre Galvao. Drillers make killers. Drillers make killers, there. There's all those things. That being said, we all know, if you do nothing but drill, you're not gonna be able to pull these moves off going live. And this, with the old tradit- what we now call traditional martial arts, that was all kata. And all kata will get you nowhere. That's when the guys, when you saw the, the 90's, when the jiu-jitsu invasion happened, you know, the guy would try his 12-point strike kata method against a blue belt in jiu-jitsu. The blue belt would do a sloppy doug- double leg, take him down to the ground and choke him out. Yeah. Cause they rolled live. They did randori. So, you have to have balance, but you gotta train live randori. And at the same time, you gotta drill too. Mm-hmm. So, be careful.

• 34:05Jocko Willink?

  Don't do too much at one.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  Seems like the drilling helps you get a hold of what you do with your body. And then the Randori, the rolling.

• 34:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Gives you, you know, control or better skill in dealing with other people's bodies. So, and that's what Jiu-Jitsu is both, you know, where you can kinda.

• 34:26Jocko Willink?

  And you're gonna get, you're gonna get reactions that are different, right?

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:32Jocko Willink?

  And this is the same thing, this is the same thing like when I was training guys in the teams. Like, you could teach them the basics of how to enter a room and then how to move down a hallway. But as soon as you put a, another person in there going against them.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:46Jocko Willink?

  It was like, different things happen.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:49Jocko Willink?

  Different things are gonna happen and you gotta be ready for it. So you have to go live. I've told, I told you this story before, but when, when I first started playing basketball and my coach had the old school, had the old school Hoosiers coach, right?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:02Jocko Willink?

  You know the old school, you seen the movie Hoosiers?

• 35:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:04Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang! So, in Hoosiers, the guy's old school coach, like, hey, no, you're not even allowed to shoot. We're defense, defense, defense, running drills, drill, drill, drill. We never scrimmaged. And the first time I played in a real game, it was the first time I played a real game, I went down the court and like called the play and expected to be able to execute the play, that we had run the little pattern. And the, the other point guard just picked me off. I was in seventh, thirtieth grade. He just picked off every pass I threw. I was just, cause I'd never done Randori on the basketball court. Never scrimmaged, never played.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:36Jocko Willink?

  You gotta balance those two. All right.

• 35:42Jocko Willink?

  Next, back to the book. Next, I would like to briefly discuss free practice involving throwing and grappling techniques, which I will refer to by their Japanese names. So the two Japanese names that he's gonna use are Katami Waza and Nagawa Zee. Now, now Waza means technique, right? And you probably knew that. A lot of us, a lot of us in Jiu-Jitsu, we talk about, or we, what we know about Judo, we talk about Nawaza. And N E W A Z A means groundwork. That's what it means, mat work. Basically is what I mean. I think, I think. The N E actually means like laying down or sleeping or something like that. So it means you're down on the ground.

• 36:23Jocko Willink?

  Katami Waza is the, Katami Waza is like the grappling part. But you're not necessarily. You're not necessarily laying down in all grappling positions. So that's why they call it Katami Waza. But, but Nagi Waza is the throws. Alright, so here we go. Back to the book. When I was training, I practiced Katami Waza quite a bit, but after coming to appreciate Nagawa Z. I came to believe that Nagawa Z should be emphasized in the technical training aspects of Judo. This does not mean I considered Katami Waza to be useless, of course, but I stress practicing Nagawa Z first. Followed then by Katami Waza. So he focused on the throwing techniques.

• 37:09Jocko Willink?

  This is because doing Katami Waza first hinders progress in Nagawa Z. While it makes sense that learning Nagawa Z first makes it easier to remember Katami Waza as at a later stage. When I established Kodakon. I encouraged the practice of Nagawa Z precisely for that reason. As a result, at that time, a great. Great number of experts in Nagawa Z were fostered in the early years of the Kodakon. As a result of emphasizing Nagawa Z, however, Katami Waza gradually became neglected. That's very interesting. So anyone that knows anything about Judo and Jiu Jitsu, one of the biggest differences is in Jiu Jitsu, we focused a ton on groundwork. Too much.

• 37:52Jocko Willink?

  Well, you could say too much, right? Cause there's, there's, there's Jiu Jitsu people that don't know how to take someone down. And that's very problematic. So. He's saying that, hey, he focused on that and you can kind of hear what he's saying. So. If you, it's real easy to ignore the stand up. When you realize how effective the ground game is and you also realize that if you, if you understand. How to take the person down, then you, then you're going to get in good positions and all that. So he just kind of leaned in that direction. And says that it ends up getting a little bit neglected. And also, if you don't know the rules of Judo.

• 38:28Jocko Willink?

  emphasize the takedowns because the rules of judo if I take you down if I throw you with an ippon which means something some other body part other than your feet touches the ground before your feet do during a throw I win automatically instant win it's like a submission and so because of that they they practice a lot of stand up whereas in jiu-jitsu you can get thrown 10 times and you can still catch a person in a triangle and you win you can be on the ground doesn't matter and you can get pinned in judo too if you get held down for 30 seconds about 30 I think it's 30 seconds on on your back you get pinned you lose that doesn't happen in jiu-jitsu you can have someone across side on you for four or seven eight minutes just you haven't even moved you didn't lose and you sneak out of there and grab a little kimura you get the victory sure

• 39:15Jocko Willink?

  all right back to the book at the koda con we study and practice techniques with the purpose of using mental and physical energy most to fit most effectively in order to achieve one's goal no matter what the endeavor which is the basic principle of judo and he's going to talk about this a ton the basic principle of judo is like efficiency so those in training do not merely now but this is so important those in training do not merely imitate the actions of the master or practice without understanding the reasons behind what they are doing but rather consider the methods and train in accordance with detailed principles for that reason what once took five or six years to achieve can now be accomplished in three years this is huge in jiu-jitsu and I saw this transition take place when I started

• 39:58Jocko Willink?

  learning jiu-jitsu we learned moves now everyone teaches concepts I mean you still teach moves but if you don't know the principles of them and it's the same thing when I was teaching guys in the teams like you teach them a maneuver on the battlefield you can learn the mechanics of the move on the battlefield but if you don't understand why those mechanics are important then it doesn't make you don't even have you don't have it you don't get it same thing in the business world you can tell someone like hey here's what you should tell your subordinates right now but that technique they can use it and it'll work okay but that's nothing compared to saying here's why it's important that you tell your subordinates this thing and here's how you want to lead them that's what gives them the game is when they understand the principles

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why those introductory courses are so critical. And I'm talking about jiu-jitsu, obviously. Where you get a new guy, first day guy, and he jumps in a class and the class they're teaching, you know, the mechanics of a certain move. Meanwhile, everyone in the class, they're not first day people. They know the concepts behind it, but they come in and it's just, it's just a different language. It doesn't stick.

• 41:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Cause it's just mechanical moves.

• 41:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's like trying to teach someone, if you, if you, if you had a non-native English speaker and you walk in and you're gonna teach him of, you know, a vocabulary word.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:13Jocko Willink?

  Which is like, you know, audacious, right?

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:16Jocko Willink?

  Well, he has no context to put that in. That's not the word to teach him. He doesn't even know how to say "I", right? So, when you start teaching someone a umaplata.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:24Jocko Willink?

  And they don't understand what an armlock is, they're gonna have issues.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like teaching them-

• 41:28Jocko Willink?

  You gotta give them the fundamentals.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Do you want catch up with that? Teach someone who doesn't know any English, do you want catch up with that? Teach him that and then send him out. He doesn't know when to use that, you know? I know how to say it. You're not just gonna roll into the post office and be like, "Hey, do you want catch up with that? Doesn't make sense."

• 41:44Jocko Willink?

  No, it does not.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Unusable.

• 41:46Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, "Various records and accounts have been passed down over the ages with regard to the true meaning of jiu-jitsu." Then he's talking about the actual word, "jiu-jitsu." "But few of them are accurate." "It can be said, though, that the name apparently derived from the expression 'jiyoko go oshishu,'"

• 42:06Jocko Willink?

  "which can be translated as 'softness controls hardness.'" "This expression needs closer attention."

• 42:16Jocko Willink?

  "Let's assume I have an opponent who possesses power to the value of ten, whereas I must face this opponent with power only to the value of seven. When my opponent thrusts at me with all of his energy, it follows that if I resist, I will be overcome even if I expend all my power. If, however, rather than resist my more powerful opponent, I adjust and adapt to his energy and pull back, he will fall forward under the strength of his own attack. His power of ten will become merely a power of three and he will stumble and lose his balance. I will not be pulled off balance and can pull away, maintain my stance, and retain my original power of seven."

• 42:54Jocko Willink?

  In short, resisting a more powerful opponent will result in your defeat. Whilst adjusting you to and evading your opponent's attack will cause him to lose his balance, his power will be reduced and you will defeat him. This can apply whatever the relative values of power, thus making it possible for weaker opponents to beat significantly stronger ones. There you go.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 43:17Jocko Willink?

  That's the way it works. Can a level 10 beat a level, can a level 1 beat a level 10? That's tricky. There's a, there's a, there's a point, right?

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:28Jocko Willink?

  There's a point where, like, yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz it's, there's like, even that what he's talking about, I like how he did it in numbers, like how he did that. Um, but the reality is like that. It's, again, cool to have the numbers, but it's not, they're not absolute numbers. There's a lot of gray area in there. So the idea is to take his 10 and use, almost like using part of his 10 for, on top of your 7, cuz you're going the same way. But it's like, how much of that 10 are you gonna use? If you're 1, you better be using 9, you know?

• 44:00Jocko Willink?

  You better be a master.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta be using a lot of his number, you know?

• 44:04Jocko Willink?

  But this is one of those things, this is one of those things that I subconsciously learned from jiu-jitsu. And I applied it all the time, especially in dealing with relationships. And I've talked about it here a million times of like, hey, don't attack the ego, don't attack the strong point, right?

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:18Jocko Willink?

  That's just complete, just, just complete jiu-jitsu mentality. That's what it is.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:24Jocko Willink?

  And, and it works. If you attack that strong point, Sun Tzu, art of war, 2,500 years old. If you attack the defen- heavily defended position, you're, you're not gonna win. If you go against a power of 10 and you've only got a power 7, you're not gonna win.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:37Jocko Willink?

  Not gonna happen.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Even if you use full power.

• 44:40Jocko Willink?

  Even if you use full power. In fact, it's gonna be worse for you, especially if the other guy knows he's gonna use that 7. He's gonna use that in addition to his 10, he's gonna beat you with a 17 to 0.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and actually, that actually backs up, or kind of refers back to your point where cannot, when you say can a level 1 beat a level 10? So a level, if they both know jiu-jitsu or judo, then eh, you know, it's way, cuz he knows the same thing as you. But, you know, if you're 9, if you're better than the guy, a factor of 9, then you know your chances start to go up as a 1.

• 45:13Jocko Willink?

  No doubt, no doubt about that.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  But I think that's where people, they, they get jammed up where they're like, hey, what do, I thought size didn't matter in jujitsu. Well, yeah, if everyone's doing jujitsu, of course size matters, just like condition's gonna matter, just like how tall it matters, how strong it matters, when you all know the jujitsu.

• 45:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's like a dude said the other day.

• 45:34Jocko Willink?

  Jujitsu is not important, as important in the UFC as it was. The guy that just beat Verdun, big, tall badass guy from Russia, Kal Goff or something. Sorry, bro. He, but he said, hey, it's not as important anymore. And the fact that, but you're right, you know why it's not as important? Cause everybody knows it now. So yeah, it's not as important. If you go, you roll in there without knowing any jujitsu, you're gonna get submitted.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  You see how important it is.

• 45:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, exactly. All right, back to the book. There's a popular parable that goes thus. A jujitsu ka, which means a jujitsu practitioner, was grabbed by a sumo wrestler. At that point, the jujitsu ka said, you're a sumo wrestler, yet you can't grab any tighter than that? Angered, the sumo wrestler attempted to adjust his grip. As he did so, he loosened it slightly. At that moment, the jujitsu ka quickly lowered his body and escaped from the sumo wrestler's grip.

• 46:29Jocko Willink?

  All right.

• 46:31Jocko Willink?

  Now, there's another, we're gonna talk about this theory called Shiroko Shazen Katsuyou. And I apologize to everyone that speaks Japanese. I'm sorry, Tim Ferriss, I'm sorry. I should've waited for you to come and do this with me, so you could correct me. But here, here we go. One's mental and physical energy must be used most effi- effectively in order to achieve a certain goal. That is to say, one must apply the most effective method or technique for using the mind and body. If we use the term "siriyoko" for one's mental and physical energy, this should be expressed "siriyoko sazen katsuyo",

• 47:15Jocko Willink?

  which means "best use of one's energy". We can shorten this simply to "siriyoku zenyo", which means "maximum efficiency", maximum efficiency. This means that no matter what the goal, no matter what the goal, in order to achieve it, you must put your mental and physical energy to work in the most effective manner. This is like common sense, right? But how often are we wasting energy? How often are we wasting energy? We're wasting energy all the time.

• 47:47Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. When I was a child, I learned the jiu-jitsu of the past. However, that jiu-jitsu had no basic principle. I learned various methods from one teacher. He taught me how to place my hips and pull, to throw an opponent and how to choke someone, but he did not teach me anything about what principles were involved or how to apply those principles. But that's... I think that's the same that as jiu-jitsu hit America, I think everyone was learning like that. Like, here's how you choke someone, but you weren't learning the system.

• 48:22Jocko Willink?

  As I studied further, I found that one teacher taught differed from what another taught. There was no basis upon which to decide which one was correct. That was the reason I began to make a thorough study of jiu-jitsu. Now, what I would say about that is, you don't need to decide which one is correct. Like, when you learn an arm bar from one person or you learn an arm bar from someone else, you're gonna learn good things from both of them. Neither one of them is correct. And one of them might be correct in this situation or with this body style, and the other one's correct in a different situation with a different body style. I think if we looked at Kano's personality traits, like, he's a guy that's real orderly. And I think that's... Yeah, he's a real guy. Like, Jordan Peterson,

• 49:07Jocko Willink?

  people would put him in the high conscientious and high and orderly. He's a very orderly person. And so for him, like, there's a right answer and there's a wrong answer. And I think you see that in judo and that's why judo is much more disciplined, highly disciplined, like go to a judo competition, there are no yelling and screaming, go to a jiu-jitsu competition, it's mayhem.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:29Jocko Willink?

  Right? And they've tried to tighten that up, like they try and make it less crazy, but they haven't succeeded. Jiu-jitsu is crazy, jiu-jitsu competitions are crazy, judo competitions are not like that.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro, did you see, there's a clip, a judo clip on, online, wherever I saw it, but it's a clip and, and so this guy wins, right? Real dramatic win, like maybe he wasn't supposed to win, or I don't know, maybe he's an upset, maybe not, or maybe it was the finals, I don't know. But it was a real dramatic win, he wins, and he's like, you know how they yell and they be all, all happy or whatever, he did that and he kinda stood over the guy.

• 50:00Jocko Willink?

  Ooh.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Just for a second, like a split, like pretty short.

• 50:04Jocko Willink?

  DQ.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  DQ.

• 50:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Just like that.

• 50:06Jocko Willink?

  So legit.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Like, man, in jiu-jitsu, MMA, man, you see that all day.

• 50:09Jocko Willink?

  That's, see, that's, that's the, that's, one of the reasons I wanted to talk about this is like, that is a quality thing. You know what's two, and, and I guess this is different on the east coast or west coast. The east coast, like one of my buddies, Joe, he came and watched some wrestling with me, some high school wrestling, and they, I forget what, they penalize people, like, oh no, you're not allowed to do that. Like, they're strict. When you get done, when you get done, wrestling, you just got pinned, you get up, you get to the center of the mat, you put your hand out to shake hands, that's it.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:38Jocko Willink?

  No complaining to the ref, there's none of this other crap, no, you do what you're supposed to do, and that's awesome. Cause that, you know what that teaches people? It teaches people how to control their emotions.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, huh. Yeah, I, I remember in Pop Warner, you know, my only frame of reference was watching football on TV, NFL.

• 50:52Jocko Willink?

  You were just spiking that ball.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Spiking the ball, doing the icky shuffle, back in my day, icky, you know, icky woods, anyway, back in the day. And so, you know, we played Pop Warner football my first year, I knew that, our coach was super disciplined. Like, the kind where you had to, everyone had to wear high white socks, white shoes, like, it was real discipline, and I'd see other teams and they different colored shoes, all this stuff. That's all I knew though, so it was clear, you couldn't spike the ball, you couldn't do any dance or whatever, you give the ball to the ref, that's, that's it, when you make a touchdown. So we played this team.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  That will remain nameless and they go, they

• 51:26Jocko Willink?

  You don't want to bring up the old rivalries.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no.

• 51:29Jocko Willink?

  Tell them what's gonna happen.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  They make a, actually was a, a team from out of town, actually. And they, he spiked the ball, little kid spiked the ball and does the thing or whatever, straight up flag. It's a, it's a penalty.

• 51:41Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Even, actually even in colleges like that.

• 51:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Right?

• 51:44Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, in college football, it's like that. You can do, you can do more, for sure. But yeah, pop one or anything. If you do anything, you, you throw the ball, you put your hands up for too long. If you put your hands up for too long, after you make a touchdown, that's a penalty on sportsmanlike conduct.

• 52:00Jocko Willink?

  That's legit, right?

• 52:02Speaker 01

  I think so, especially as little kids.

• 52:04Jocko Willink?

  I think so, especially even as big kids.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, my dad used to say, when you're, when you're a professional, um, this is what he said, when you're a professional football player, you can, and you make a touchdown, uh, something about like, that's your job or whatever. So yeah, you, you, you have the right to be happy about it. That was kinda, but when I think about it now, it's like, shoot, if you're a professional, you focus on your profession.

• 52:26Jocko Willink?

  You'd think so.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  I guess it's whatever your philosophy is.

• 52:30Jocko Willink?

  And you could say like UFC, I mean, it's really cool. It, it's so much cooler when someone wins and they just start like, check.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:40Jocko Willink?

  It's like Fedor.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:43Jocko Willink?

  Fedor would just go out there and just destroy someone and then just come like, yeah, thanks, good match.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is true.

• 52:47Jocko Willink?

  I know, we all want to see the hype.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  That's the thing.

• 52:49Jocko Willink?

  I always see the guy jumping on the top of the cage and I go and sell tickets and blah, blah, blah. But there's nothing better than just a cold-blooded killer that just comes out. And, and you know what's interesting is sometimes fighters do it, um, I think I was watching Cowboy Cerrone the other day. He like knocks some guy out and just walked away like it was nothing.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I do this every single day.

• 53:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, I was like, yeah.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:08Jocko Willink?

  But, but they don't show that clip or like Mark Hunt.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:11Jocko Willink?

  Mark Hunt just does a walk away knockout, just knocks a dude out, just walks away. Like, yes, yeah, can I get my piece of chicken now?

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:19Jocko Willink?

  I'm hungry.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. But the, the reason that those are so cool, like Fedor, that's a great example, by the way, where he's just, no, he's not getting hyped up before the fight. He's not hyped up afterwards, you know, no emotions, he's cold. That, that gets, that seems more appealing because it's in contrast to all the hype, all the hype. All this guy getting hyped up and whatever. So if everyone was like that. It would be less. It would still would be cool.

• 53:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  But even then, I'm probably just comparing it to like how I know it now.

• 53:47Jocko Willink?

  You can't knock it hype when Conor McGregor gets pumped up.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly right. So it, you know, it, it, there's a, there's a dichotomy.

• 53:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a dichotomy. I think the preferred method though is cold blooded.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but when you, and this is really what it is, and this goes for the NFL too, but yeah, for sure.

• 54:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Um, it's, it's a show. Gotta remember that. It's a competition for sure. Yeah, it's a show. Exactly right. So, and that makes sense too for the NFL where.

• 54:12Jocko Willink?

  Go watch old Fed. Just go sit around and watch old Fed or fight. So you know, Sakuraba was kinda like that. Sakuraba didn't celebrate.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  Love Sakuraba.

• 54:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, of course.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, Sakuraba was pretty cold blooded too.

• 54:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, totally cold blooded.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but just like you say, man, like Connor and like these guys who, who do put on a show, that's kinda cool too. You see what I'm saying? So it's a show.

• 54:32Jocko Willink?

  All right, back to the book. In the end, I learned from various teachers in various schools, but when one method of instruction differed from another, I had difficulty determining how to resolve those differences as I studied further. I came up with the principles I have described. In order to achieve your goals, you must put your energy to use most effectively. Again, I'm, I'll just say that you don't have to choose like this one's right and this one's wrong. You need to absorb both those methodologies and have them both in your toolkit because you might need them.

• 54:59Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, kinda like having the metric ranch sockets and the, you know.

• 55:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  And the other one.

• 55:08Jocko Willink?

  And then you got the other ones. You gotta need that one. You gotta need the one, the other one.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  You come across a bolt that's metric, right? You better be ready for that.

• 55:17Jocko Willink?

  Uh, here's a, here's some stuff that's interesting.

• 55:22Jocko Willink?

  Calisthenics are generally based on physiology and anatomy, so they do not result in the development of unbalanced body, nor are they harmful to the internal organs. But they are not without, without drawbacks because each individual movement has no meaning. And because calisthenics have no secondary benefits, they are uninteresting. Calisthenics are widely used in Japan and abroad, but few students continue to do them after grade, graduating from school. This is because they are a meaningless form of exercise and not of any practical use. No matter how much they are taught in schools, if people do not continue to practice them, there is very little value in teaching them.

• 56:03Jocko Willink?

  Cold blooded. Speaking of cold blooded.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  I dig it.

• 56:06Jocko Willink?

  So, what should be done? We need to adopt the strong points of calisthenics and compensate for their shortcomings. Of course, there are various possibilities, but for now, I've come up with these two ideas. First, the first is calisthenics that incorporate training for the defensive, for the defense against attack. So, the first one's like you come up with calisthenics that represent movements that are from fighting, right? So like a classic is a sprawl. Sprawl, yeah. Sprawl, yeah. Go do some sprawls. You wanna get in good shape, yeah, go do some sprawls. Incorporate that in. One of the workouts I used to do with my kids when they were little is they'd have to do five sprawls and max pull-ups every minute on the minute for five minutes, just five minutes. See how many pull-ups they could get. So you do five sprawls and you do as many pull-ups as you can to see

• 56:51Jocko Willink?

  how many, this is a brutal workout, go try that one. Um, yeah. You don't, you don't even need to be a, an eight-year-old kid. You can be a forty-six-year-old man, go hit that for five minutes. Yeah. Five sprawls, max pull-ups, go. Huh. But it is a good workout for kids. Yeah, it's legit. But, anyway, sprawls, that's an exercise where it, that reflects exactly the movement that you would do on the mat. Now, here we go back to the book. My other idea could be called dance style. And I'm not gonna get into, he talks about it, he's basically saying like, hey, you come up with dance moves that are fun, that work your body. And what I thought of immediately, when I, when I thought, when I read that, I was like thinking about all the, all the, uh,

• 57:35Jocko Willink?

  I guess is b-boys and breakdancing the same thing? B-boys do breakdancing, so it's like judo and judoka. So, b-boys is a breakdancer. So like the 10th Planet guys, a bunch of the 10th Planet guys came from the breakdancing background. Yeah. And they have the physical attributes, the flexibility, the strength from that, and it turns out to be awesome for jiu-jitsu. Yeah. So there's a good, and you can find that with gymnastics people too, like, Yeah. Like gymnastics, here's a skill. But I guess his point is, in his mind, that's now fun somehow? See, in my mind, like, it's not fun. What, the breakdancing? Like, to me, doing a breakdance move compared to doing a push-up?

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, you'd rather do the push-up?

• 58:18Jocko Willink?

  Well, I mean, there's not a huge difference, right?

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Gotcha, yeah. Yeah, breakdancing's pretty fun. I used to do that when I was young.

• 58:24Jocko Willink?

  Did you have parachute pants?

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Dude. Richie Martinez and Gio Martinez.

• 58:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  They're the mean guys.

• 58:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, they're badass jiu-jitsu guys and they're b-boys.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that is what they attribute to their skills developing so quickly, so quickly. And when you think about it, man, it's absolutely true because you think of breakdancing moves, like how you can spin on your back and do like all this stuff, like to spin on your back, you know, these guys who go inverted and do all this stuff where they have really good control of their like spatial awareness and their body, yeah, you know? So these breakdancing guys, they come in with level 10 of that, you know?

• 59:03Jocko Willink?

  And, well, wrestlers obviously come in at a high level. Gymnast, anyone that's really good at gymnastics has that same kind of awareness and they have some crazy strength.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:12Jocko Willink?

  You know, so yeah, maybe that is a good thing for the judo players to come up with some kind of a...

• 59:17Speaker 01

  A dance.

• 59:19Jocko Willink?

  A dance. Well, what about capoeira?

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Capoeira.

• 59:22Jocko Willink?

  Because capoeira was fighting disguised as dancing.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Yeah, you know what it was? It was the African slaves in Brazil.

• 59:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  And if you notice, I know it's because they did a whole, it's not a thesis, what do you call it? Like, anyway, a thing in college, but they...

• 59:38Jocko Willink?

  You did a thing on college in capoeira?

• 59:39Speaker 01

  On capoeira, yeah.

• 59:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  And so, I don't want to go into a whole long thing, but...

• 59:44Jocko Willink?

  Good.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  If you go, early capoeira was only legs, you know? You know why? Because they, a lot of the time, they'd be tied up, hands behind their back. So that, yeah, so they came up with this fighting system disguised as dancing to use against their captors. It's very interesting.

• 1:00:00Jocko Willink?

  That is interesting. B-boys.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  B-boys.

• 1:00:03Jocko Willink?

  Capoeira.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Capoeira guys.

• 1:00:05Jocko Willink?

  Jeff Higgs went from jiu-jitsu to capoeira. Fabio Santos, our old teacher, was like, "Higgs!" You're the only person that's ever gone from jujitsu. He kept training jujitsu.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:17Jocko Willink?

  Incorporated capoeira.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, even uh.

• 1:00:19Jocko Willink?

  Which is smart, right?

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Corina does.

• 1:00:21Jocko Willink?

  Same thing?

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  I think he, no, no, no, I think he, he has that background.

• 1:00:24Jocko Willink?

  Most people would find capoeira and go, oh, that seems cool, but then you get choked out and you're like, I'm gonna learn jujitsu.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that goes for me. Man, you ever seen like a capoeira, like a um, a performance? Or whatever, man, there's this.

• 1:00:35Jocko Willink?

  It's gymnastics, it's, well, whatever you wanna call it.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  It's like this, yeah, man, it's really impressive. It's almost like he'll, he'll, and I'm referring to this guy that you said he'd put on a capoeira show uh every Wednesday at this club I worked at in Hawaii. And so he'd do these like flips and somersaults and stuff like that, and it looks like, oh, he messed up that somersault. But that was part of the move, see what I'm saying? So he, instead of sticking the landing, he doesn't stick the landing, he rolls into the next move, you know? So it's this big string of just real fluid movement, it's, it's kinda captivating. I can see how that would benefit you.

• 1:01:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay, noted.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Keep that in mind.

• 1:01:12Jocko Willink?

  Alright, back to the book. There's no need to reject traditional form of exercise. Those who enjoy them should do them. My doctrine is very simple. Highly recommend what is best without rejecting things of the past. So I do not particularly oppose Japan's conventional methods of physical education, but I would like to devise the best form of physical education and recommend as many people as possible. Take it up, thus resulting in a form of physical education that at the same time achieves worthwhile goals. That is cool, right? Like, that's one of the coolest things about jujitsu is you are getting in shape and you are learning how to choke people out, which is a really beneficial thing. And that, for all the people that say, well, I wanna start jujitsu, but I need to get in shape first. No, you don't.

• 1:01:57Jocko Willink?

  You just need to start jujitsu and you'll get in shape along the way.

• 1:02:02Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. The prosperity of a nation can be hoped for only with an energized populace that.

• 1:02:10Jocko Willink?

  Vitality and that vitality depends on the mental and physical training of the people. The powerful nations of the world have explored every avenue in order to build their national strength. And they are paying particular attention to physical education and endeavoring to promote vitality of their citizens through their own unique methods. Well, that sounds good. And it was true at one time, but in America right now, we're getting pretty weak on physical education. Need to step it up.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  Step it up.

• 1:02:39Jocko Willink?

  Step it up. You ever seen that video of the old school? They did some experimental gym class somewhere in California? And like the crazy obstacle courses like in the maybe the 40s or the 50s. And they had crazy obstacle courses. They had this and like every kid looked like a complete beast. And you're like, yeah, why wouldn't you do that? Why wouldn't gym class at school? Be an hour long of hardcore, physical putting out. Why would it not be that way? Right?

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:11Jocko Willink?

  You know why? Cause people go, that's insulting to my child because he's not a great athlete. Well, your kid's not going to be a better athlete if they don't start training hard.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Right. So like what is it?

• 1:03:20Jocko Willink?

  Get in the game.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. So what, what is it though? The kid, the kid like, okay, we're gonna do pushups today, right? And you know, Johnny did a hundred pushups. Meanwhile, I can only do two. So I feel bad. That messes up my self-esteem.

• 1:03:33Jocko Willink?

  So we don't want to put you on the spot and you know what? We're just gonna not do pushups.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  In fact, you know what we're gonna do for PE? We've baskets, basket weaving.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, but even isn't the, isn't the whole grading system? I know we're going to do a whole different thing, but isn't the whole grading system in school like that anyway? Hey, Johnny over there got an A. He's good at math. Look at you.

• 1:03:51Jocko Willink?

  It is right now.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  But you know, there's the universities for sure that have like, well, there's no grades here.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:59Jocko Willink?

  Cause we don't, this isn't about a grade.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Actually the

• 1:04:02Jocko Willink?

  It's like, no, actually.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Regular schools are becoming

• 1:04:04Jocko Willink?

  You know what? You know, you know what makes my kids mad? My kids will be like, I gotta, I got a 96 on the math test. And I'm like, what was the class average? Or who beat you? Did you lose to anyone? And they're like, "What the chest?" Like, "No." If everyone got a ninety-six, I don't care. You're average.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  I don't know, maybe you should care, maybe you should. Maybe you should be impressed with the teacher. The teacher is so good at teaching that they, when they test these kids, these kids score almost perfect on the test, on the material that they test. Dang, that's one good teacher right there.

• 1:04:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, I'd be impressed with the teacher, but I wouldn't be impressed with my kid if they just got the same as everyone else. They need to step it up.

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  What if they all got hundreds? What if they all got hundreds?

• 1:04:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay, they got a hundred, okay, like.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Still not impressed.

• 1:04:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's, it's a good job, but I'm not impressed.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  I'm impressed. Hundred? Perfect score on a test? Credit?

• 1:04:58Jocko Willink?

  My what? My little daughter will come home.

• 1:05:02Jocko Willink?

  And she'll be like, "Dad, I got a ninety-four on the math test." And I'll be like, "Which one did you miss?" And my wife will be like, "Tell her she did a great job." "I'm not gonna lie to her."

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Whatever. That is a good job.

• 1:05:17Jocko Willink?

  Uh, alright, okay, cool, we'll leave it at that.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  You know what's funny is I know you're really not like that, cuz I see, I see you talk to.

• 1:05:23Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny is I, I do say that to my kids.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, with this joking tone.

• 1:05:28Jocko Willink?

  It is fun.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you're, like at our, when we were at my house, the pool, everyone's jumping in the pool doing their dives. And then you're like, "It's like joking, Jocko." You can totally tell. You're like, "Good dive, but I wanna see improvement in this area," and this, it's like over, it's good. I see what you're doing there.

• 1:05:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, you gotta have fun with it.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:05:47Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Intellectual, now he's talking about intellectual training. Intellectual training involves both the acquisition of knowledge and the cultivation of mental power. And whereas one cannot discuss these entirely, as entirely separate things, it is nevertheless true that people with a great deal of knowledge do not necessarily have exceptional powers of reasoning or judgment. That's important. Just cuz you went to some course doesn't mean that you know. Doesn't mean you have good judgment. So you can have people that are well-read and well-educated, but they don't have any common sense. That's, that's what, that's how I translate this thing here. "The cultivation of these powers does not in itself entail becoming knowledgeable, so in fact,

• 1:06:32Jocko Willink?

  these two things can be looked at separately." So there's a big difference between, you know, having information and having, I guess we'd say wisdom. What does he call it? Reasoning and judgment. I'd call reasoning and judgment combined together, I'd call that wisdom.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 1:06:49Jocko Willink?

  And now he talks about moral education. Back to the book, "In one respect, moral education must be carried out from the aspect of knowledge. That is to say, it is necessary to know intellectually what is good and what is evil. It is also necessary to develop the intelligence to distinguish right from wrong in various complex situations. Thus, it is necessary to teach the ability to determine good from bad, to discriminate what is right from what is wrong." This is something that I think we're getting away from. Like, hey, you know what, that's actually wrong. Like, the whole idea, you've, you've, you've, you hear people, and I think it's, I think they wrap this around a political conversation

• 1:07:31Jocko Willink?

  or a political viewpoint of, there's some people that say, like, no, evil actually exists. And some people just say, well, no, people are different and people are raised differently and all that. I'm, I'm one of the people that, like, I believe evil exists. And, and I think you can teach, and you have to teach people how to tell the difference between right and wrong. There's some things that are wrong.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Jocko Willink?

  There's some things in the world that are wrong.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:56Jocko Willink?

  And you shouldn't do them.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Strangely, I was talking to Jade pretty in-depth about that idea. And how it applies to a bunch of things where

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  even saying, okay, things are right and things are wrong, that's, that's like one way of, you know what, okay, so these people that, that say, well, people are different, there's no real absolute right or wrong, the thing is they're, they have a point with that, but here's the thing, they're not talking about the same thing you're talking about. Well, like, we have a societal standard, so, and, and, see, it got super complex, so obviously it's not the time, but think about this, let's say, a fat person.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  They're fat. Everyone can see that they're fat. They know they're fat, kinda thing, right? And some people would say it's wrong to indicate or to point out that that person's fat in front of people. Even though the fact is that they are.

• 1:08:52Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Is it right or wrong to point that out?

• 1:08:56Jocko Willink?

  It's rude.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  It's rude. Exactly. Alright, so is it right to be rude?

• 1:09:01Jocko Willink?

  You will.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Is it right or wrong?

• 1:09:02Jocko Willink?

  Total scenario dependent thing. Who's the person? What's the situation?

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Exactly. Right. So the point is, the point is, there's a societal standard.

• 1:09:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  And usually it's established. Just like beating your kids in certain societies is right, in certain societies is wrong. So, sure, the more extreme the behavior, the easier it is to discern, okay, that's wrong.

• 1:09:22Jocko Willink?

  With all that, I think there's a line.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:25Jocko Willink?

  That I think is, and you can call.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it goes all the way down to like, almost like a human, like, understanding of, of like, basic human needs. And Sam Harris, he talks about, um, suffering, like, suffering and well-being. That's the two things. If something promotes or advocates suffering for like, no reason why, and he goes into it, then that's how you can discern good and evil.

• 1:09:50Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  So, but, at the end of the day, it goes down to a standard, like a specific standard.

• 1:09:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. But I, what I'm, I guess you're saying the same thing I'm saying.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:01Jocko Willink?

  Which is like, you need to teach people and, and explain what the value system is to the, to people.

• 1:10:09Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. In another sense, moral education must be carried out from the aspect of the emotions. Even if you can distinguish right from wrong intellectually, if you are not trained emotionally to like what is good and dislike what is evil, your ability to do good and reject evil will be lacking.

• 1:10:29Jocko Willink?

  So if morals are not cultivated both intellectually and emotionally, good results cannot be achieved.

• 1:10:40Jocko Willink?

  This is big stuff.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:41Jocko Willink?

  This is heavy stuff.

• 1:10:44Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, furthermore, even if you do try to do good and reject evil, if your willpower is weak, the opposite result will often occur. Therefore, training of the will must also be an element of moral education. A weak willpower can result in the inability to do what you know is right, or the inability to prevent doing what you know is wrong. Boom.

• 1:11:13Jocko Willink?

  This is very important stuff.

• 1:11:17Jocko Willink?

  A weak willpower will allow bad things to happen.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Yep. Choosing the short-term payoff over the long-term.

• 1:11:25Jocko Willink?

  Another good example. Back to the book, it is also important not to overlook the element of habit. Even if you intend to do good, if you have not developed the habit of doing so, your best intentions will easily be corrupted. And even the best intentions of rejecting evil can fail if you have not developed the habit of doing so. For that reason, you must endeavor to cultivate good habits, love what is good, and reject what is evil on a daily basis. You know what this supports? This supports that whole, you know, when I talk about the fact that like if you make good decisions, like if you wake up early, that goes, that's a habit.

• 1:12:10Jocko Willink?

  And that helps you, that strengthens your ability to reject weakness. Whereas if you sleep in, you're lazy, you hit the snooze button, you double fist and donuts into your mouth, guess what? You're gonna be weak. Then I'll tell you something else. And I've been talking about this, or I've been thinking about this, I've been talking about it a little bit, I've been thinking about this.

• 1:12:31Jocko Willink?

  The way, the, the way that you live, every little thing that you do, like those actions that you take on a daily basis, that's who you are. And if you don't train correctly, if you don't live correctly, when the moment of truth comes, you won't be able to execute correctly.

• 1:12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:47Jocko Willink?

  The way you, it's like, it's a classic, the way you train, you, you, the way you train is how you fight, right? If you don't train hard, you're not gonna fight hard.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:55Jocko Willink?

  If you push yourself mentally, when the time comes, you'll be able to push yourself, you'll be able to push yourself mentally. If you're weak in training, you'll be weak in war. That's the way it is.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was very well put, sir. We, we were, I was talking to Jay last night, like I said, and that's what we were talking about too, that's what I brought up. Cause he was real excited about learning all these new things about calculus and all this stuff, right? Cause he's into AI, artificial machine learning and whatnot. So, I was like, okay, you know, you're, you're really excited about learning this stuff, which is good, by the way. And we're just, I was, I wasn't necessarily talking about him, but I'm, but I just used him as the example. So I was like, okay, so what is, what is it? Like you're, so are you applying this to like your work now or your life or whatever? Or are you just fired up about learning it? So it's like, you can learn about everything in the whole wide universe, right?

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  But if you don't put it into action, whatever, it's like your habits, like what you do, that, that's who you are. You have, like, let's say you're, you're, you, I don't know, you have like

• 1:13:57Jocko Willink?

  Well, actually, I think you're saying something different. I know what you're saying, and what you're saying is absolutely true too. I'm saying little, I'm saying little, the little things matter is what I'm saying. The way you live is the way you live is what I'm saying.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.

• 1:14:11Jocko Willink?

  What you're saying is also important. Like, hey, you got this, what are you gonna do with it?

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:18Jocko Willink?

  That's what you're saying, and that also is important. Like, okay, well, you worked for this, but now what are you gonna do with it? You got this gift, what are you gonna do with this gift? You got this talent, what are you gonna do with this talent? You got this education, what are you gonna do with this education? Those are also important.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:32Jocko Willink?

  And what I'm saying is, if you don't develop the habit of putting things into place and being efficient and working hard, you can take those gifts, those talents and that education, and you can piss it away.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:43Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:44Jocko Willink?

  If you're used to taking the easy road, you get that knowledge, you don't do anything with it. So live your life with intent. That's what I'm saying. Every day, every little decision you make matters. It matters. Matters what you do.

• 1:15:03Jocko Willink?

  Expanding this out a little bit back to the book. If each member of a group helps others and acts selflessly, the group can be harmonious and act as one. Accordingly, the group can make the best use of its energy, just like an individual. This principle remains true even in the case of a complex society with a population of millions.

• 1:15:23Jocko Willink?

  You help each other out. This is very, this is what, this is, you know, this is like a SEAL team, right? This is like a SEAL platoon. You, you help each other, you support each other. That's what makes you good. That's what makes you good.

• 1:15:38Jocko Willink?

  Here's another one. Let's say someone draws a sword on you. This is getting back into training a little. Let's say someone draws a sword on you. Any hesitations in your actions will result in you being injured or killed. You must react automatically, instinctively, just as when you blink impulsively when a fly approaches your eye. You must dodge your attacker in the instant. In order to do this, you must practice, practice this as physical education and train on a regular basis to build up your body while also undergoing martial arts training.

• 1:16:11Jocko Willink?

  So I like this idea of a fly getting in your eye, right? The fly doesn't hit your eye, you blink. That's what happens. You have the instinct. And what's cool, I see this with extreme ownership, when people first hear about the concept like it's foreign to them. At Utah, you've talked about this, how once you started thinking about it, you'd see like any excuse that someone makes, you're like, oh man, this guy's not taking ownership. That's just an excuse. And then you see it in yourself. And when that becomes your instinct, because you're living that way, well then it's very easy to spot. It's also easier to maintain. That's why the little things matter.

• 1:16:43Jocko Willink?

  Echo?

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:16:46Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Judo began with the study of martial arts and then it gradually became clear that it could be applied to physical education, intellectual training, moral education, social engagement, management, and people's everyday lives. Some people believe that judo means simply practicing at the dojo. This is applying the principle of judo at the dojo when practicing defense against attack and though it certainly is one aspect of judo is only a small part of it. With judo in every endeavor, you must imagine the best goal and use your mental and physical energy in the most effective manner in order to accomplish that goal. For that reason, judo is not merely a martial art, but rather the basic principle of human behavior.

• 1:17:26Jocko Willink?

  It is wrong to assume judo ends in the dojo. So, he's saying apply this everywhere. I'm saying you should do that. You can do it with jujitsu.

• 1:17:41Jocko Willink?

  Now, we're going back into this seiyoku zenyo. Certain teachings have a long tradition, so most people accept them. But when people do not understand why they are taught a certain way, conflicts can sometimes arise. To give example, virtually no one doubts that diligence is a good thing. Right? No one doubts that diligence is a good thing. If diligence is always a good thing, it follows that there can be no situation in which being diligent is bad. But if you are diligent in an irresponsible manner, you will spend a great deal of effort on something that is not very useful and expend the energy required to do something

• 1:18:21Jocko Willink?

  good wastefully. You must carefully choose something for which diligence is suited. Even when we do what we believe to be best, overdoing something can be harmful. When students stay up late reading a book because their teacher's parents or society has deemed it best that they should read it, this is certainly diligence, but is also detrimental to their health to read for so long. Conversely, you cannot do things half-heartedly or randomly. So.

• 1:18:52Jocko Willink?

  You gotta stay balanced.

• 1:18:55Jocko Willink?

  Let us turn to the, to an annoying yet pervasive habit people all too often display complaining.

• 1:19:04Jocko Willink?

  What is the point of complaining? It is certainly no fun for those who have to listen to the complaints. The energy used to make an unpleasant complaints can certainly not be considered siriyoku zenyo.

• 1:19:17Jocko Willink?

  Rather, all the energy used to complain or grumble should be expended more usefully. This means ridding oneself of unpleasant feelings and refraining from harboring ill will towards others. In this end, in the end, this will result in putting one's energy to the best use, not only for oneself, but also for the betterment of society. This principle should be applied every day at all times.

• 1:19:42Jocko Willink?

  Don't waste your energy on stuff that doesn't matter. Back to the book, if people are always aware of their current situation and set a standard for their future based on doing what will benefit themselves and society and continually regulate their behavior, they can be satisfied with their lives at all times.

• 1:20:01Jocko Willink?

  When you try to do this, you will find that your future prospects are always bright. That is because you're doing what is best. How, how common sense is this, right? And it's so common sense, but how, how many people do you know that follow this path? That's the question.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that goes back to

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  how you say that idea of being detached. When you're detached, it's common sense.

• 1:20:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  But when you're in the game, it's not common sense because of how you, just like how that said, how you feel. Like, you know, like even complaining, for example. Like you could ask, I don't say literally everyone, but you could ask everyone and be like, hey, complaining, is that useful? Is that good to do? Is that fine to do? Just complain. Yes or no? Everyone's, oh, no, no, no, no. Why does everyone complain then? Because when you're in the game complaining, if you can feel better, whatever.

• 1:20:51Jocko Willink?

  You picked up on it very well because it's as if people are always aware of their current situation.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:55Jocko Willink?

  Meaning they need to be detached. And then set a standard for the future based on doing things that, just think, it's the same thing. Think, is it smart to do things that will benefit themselves and society continually regulate your behavior? So that you're satisfied with your life and all that? Of course, that makes sense.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:21:15Jocko Willink?

  Why don't we do it?

• 1:21:17Jocko Willink?

  We get off the path, we get on the slippery slope.

• 1:21:19Speaker 01

  We start losing our awareness of our, what is it, current state? Well, how do you put it?

• 1:21:24Jocko Willink?

  Current situation.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Current situation.

• 1:21:26Jocko Willink?

  I don't understand it.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:28Jocko Willink?

  This is interesting. Through Judo, we are teaching a principle that can work together with the highest principles of Buddhism and Christianity and the exhaustive studies of philosophers. One which, like other great philosophies and religions, can be put into action. This principle of Judo offers a basic principle that can provide a sound answer for every situation and every question. The easiest way to master this basic principle is to practice the waza of Judo and to embark on the dough, the way. That is because through practice, that incorporates both a martial art and physical education. One can learn a method for making the most effective use of one's mental and physical energy.

• 1:22:11Jocko Willink?

  Then one naturally learns how to apply this method to every aspect of human affairs. I believe that this basic principle is the most appropriate method for resolving various moral issues.

• 1:22:26Jocko Willink?

  Man, he puts a lot of weight on the Judo. A lot of weight on the Judo.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Judo is life.

• 1:22:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. With regard to our daily activities and social interaction, the teaching of siriyoko zenyo means bringing about maximum results through the use of every sort of energy. For this reason, human faults, like anger, for example, violate this principle. Becoming angry consumes mental energy. How does anger benefit you or anyone else? The result of anger are invariably a depletion of mental energy and being looked down on or disliked by others. By following the principle of Suryoku Zenyo, people will not be able to get angry. Being disappointed or troubled by failures or setbacks,

• 1:23:12Jocko Willink?

  or harboring grievances are also ways in which mental energy is consumed. Arguments, fights, all of these are violations of Suryoku Zenyo. Those who practice Judo must take great care to follow this teaching. No matter what the situation, there is only one path that people must follow. In every case, the only course is to consider, what is the right thing to do and proceed in that direction?

• 1:23:41Jocko Willink?

  What is the right thing to do and do that?

• 1:23:45Jocko Willink?

  What is the right thing to do and do that? That's what you should do. Regardless of how you feel. Yes.

• 1:23:52Jocko Willink?

  I have coined a phrase that I regularly say to people. There is only one path in life. Conducting yourself in accordance with this principle on a daily basis is vitally important. Though human beings may reach the pinnacle of success, there is only one path down which to proceed. That is to say, because complacency gives rise to the cause of failure, you must always consider things carefully until you find the appropriate course of action and proceed that way. Even when you fail, there is only one path down which to proceed. Even if once you fail and lose heart, if you regain your courage and find your way along the highest path, the highest path, circumstances will gradually improve.

• 1:24:36Jocko Willink?

  That's like Jordan Peterson talking, right? Hey, you know, like, get on, do the right thing. Pick a little thing and start improving that thing, clean your room. Because they find their own paths, those who practice Judo and who follow the principle of Suryoku Zenyo, always have a calm spirit, enjoy life, and are enterprising. The most advanced mental life can only be achieved when people thoroughly absorb this principle. Suryoku Zenyo. Maximum efficiency. What are you doing that is taking away your energy? What are you wasting your energy on?

• 1:25:16Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, a true, a person's true value is determined by how much he or she contributes to society during his or her life. And because these very contributions enable those who strive to protect themselves to achieve this, the purpose of judo is to perfect yourself so that you can contribute to society. This applies to ordinary people as well. Again, this is very, very similar to what Jordan Peterson talks about. You're like, you, you need to, if you, if you fix your world, well, you're impacting everyone's world around you. This applies to ordinary people as well, but in particular, those who specialize in judo must be expected to act in a way consistent with the purposes of judo. When you practice judo, you must try to perfect yourself and contribute to society through

• 1:26:00Jocko Willink?

  this practice, and you must emphasize the importance of this during your teachings to others. Something that seems good because it is near at hand may be useless in the future, whereas in some cases, a bit of patience is highly effective in furthering your lot in the future. Right? Delayed gratification. The basis of happiness in life is found not in the pursuit of material gains or temporary pleasure, and true kindness towards one's friends means giving them serious advice when needed, selflessly, without fear of offending them. Now, that one's interesting because I deal with this one a lot, right?

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  I deal with this a lot because you got your, your subordinate that's not doing what they're supposed to do. And I just was having this conversation with a, a group I was working with, and they were real big on the word transparency, and Leif and I talked about it on the podcast, and, and if, here's the question, like, I'm going to be transparent with you, like, like, hey, Echo. Your videos, you know, they're not good right now. Like, your videos aren't good. You need to tighten up your videos. Like, does that make, does that improve our relationship? Does that make you want to do a good job for me? Does that make you want to, like, get out there and really crush it? No, not at all. So even though I'm being transparent, does it help our situation?

• 1:27:29Jocko Willink?

  Does it help what we're trying to do? No, it doesn't. So I need to figure out a way to tell you something. And normally, the best way to do that, and here's a big hint for everyone that's out there. If you want to give someone critique that they know, that you know they need. One of the best ways to give them critique is to take ownership of it. Take ownership of the problem. So, I say, echo. Hey, I feel like I'm not really giving you good guidance on, on the videos and the way they're coming out. I, I want to sit down and talk to you and actually go through, like, what, what the impact that we're trying to have and that I want to have. And, I mean, I know you're working hard, but I feel like I'm not giving you good enough guidance.

• 1:28:12Jocko Willink?

  So I want to sit down with you and, and try and see if I can be more clear. Right? Does that offend you?

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  No. Well, I know what you're doing now, but, yeah, but no, no, I get it. Yeah, you're right.

• 1:28:24Jocko Willink?

  So, you take, if you take ownership of the problem, and then you talk about the problem with the person. It puts, it doesn't, it makes, it makes them not have a defensive posture, which is what you, which is what you want. You want, don't want them to have a defensive posture. I, I actually want to have them have an open mind and be able to listen to what I say. They won't listen if you're pointing the finger at them. They won't listen as well. They might listen for a little while.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:51Jocko Willink?

  But it won't be a lasting thing.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Maybe years later, maybe, or something like that.

• 1:28:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it won't help the relationship. We know that for sure.

• 1:29:01Jocko Willink?

  You must remember that the purpose of expending a great deal of effort to build a strong body is to enable you to undertake jobs that you might otherwise be unable to endorse. So what he's talking about there, he's talking about, he basically goes on this whole thing about, like, being big and buff.

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:29:17Jocko Willink?

  He's not pro.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  He's not down for that.

• 1:29:19Jocko Willink?

  He's not down for the cause like Echo Charles is. He would look at you and think you're wasting too much time on your, on your bicep curls.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Might be right.

• 1:29:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so that's what he's saying, is that he's, he's all about the functional strength. You want to be strong so that you can do jobs that you might not be able to endure if you didn't work hard. You didn't work out hard. Hey.

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  That's a balancing act too, by the way.

• 1:29:43Jocko Willink?

  I know you're gonna defend the, the biceps over here.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  Maybe not the curls, but, but you know how like they say, it's even like, like kinda like, which is a bad example, but, you know, he said, you wanna save your energy essentially for jobs that are like important, right?

• 1:29:58Jocko Willink?

  No, no, he says the reason that you're trying to get strong, isn't so you can look big and buff, it's so that you can do jobs, you can endure jobs that you wouldn't have been able to endure.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Okay, gotcha, so that, that should be the focus of your training.

• 1:30:11Jocko Willink?

  Functional strength, that's what he's, he's down with the functional strength.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  There's this guy on YouTube, he's super funny, Bro Science, I think I told this, Bro Science Life or something like that.

• 1:30:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I've seen that guy, Bro Science.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  So funny, and he's talking about functional strength, he's, he said, you know, his jokes or whatever, and he's like, "Yeah, so good luck, you can compare your functional strength with my actual strength." So funny. But in his mind, actual strength is like how much you can bench, and you know how it is, funny. But yeah, that's, so now every time I hear like, when a guy starts like heavily advocating functional strength over like some, some weightlifter guy or whatever, I think about that.

• 1:30:48Jocko Willink?

  That's interesting.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  Even though I'm sure this book came out a lot, lot, you know, earlier than Bro Science Life, but, you know.

• 1:30:57Jocko Willink?

  Check. Alright, back to the book. "Some who practice judo become overconfident of their health and inevitably fail to look after themselves. We must not be careless about where we live, our clothing, or our hygiene. We should pay great attention to what we eat and drink. There was a time when people did not deem it a problem to eat and drink to excess, but rather were proud of a prolific, a proud of being a prolific eater or a heavy drinker. That way of thinking still persists, and is obviously detrimental to health. If you do not take care in regard to matters of health, there is no benefit in practicing judo.

• 1:31:39Jocko Willink?

  Those who practice judo must not only keep this in mind, but must also consider it their duty to remind others."

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  That's bold right there. Their duty to remind others.

• 1:31:50Jocko Willink?

  That was, I have a star next to that.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Little asterisk.

• 1:31:53Jocko Willink?

  This guy is, again, this guy is like, super orderly.

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:57Jocko Willink?

  And he's, you know, just gonna tighten people up. You know, he's out there going, "Don't eat that donut."

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's one thing, but...

• 1:32:05Jocko Willink?

  But to the nth degree.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's your duty? Come on, bro.

• 1:32:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  You know, "It's my duty. I'm gonna go, you know, I'm gonna go to the mall and buy the food court."

• 1:32:14Jocko Willink?

  You know what's funny is, this is the only thing in the whole book that he says, like, "Judo won't help." Like, if you, if you're not healthy, Judo's not, you don't even train. Just stop training.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  He has a thing. He has a thing. That's what I think.

• 1:32:27Jocko Willink?

  He doesn't like that.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. He's, what's that called? A, like, a hangup?

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's his hangup. Yeah, yeah, that's his hangup right there.

• 1:32:37Jocko Willink?

  "Because Judo derives from the martial arts of the past, it must perpetuate the spirit of other martial arts. Loyalty, faith, honor, and various other virtues were emphasized in the martial arts of the past, but I keenly feel their importance even today. The deterioration of society's morals today is primarily the result of a failure to emphasize these virtues. So I believe that those who practice Judo in particular must apply themselves to these matters and restore today's neglected public morals."

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  He's got another little hangup. Well, it's not even a hangup. He's, but I mean, obviously, I'm pointing this out because we could clearly look at society today and be like, "Yeah, well, guess what? We're on a slippery slope."

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, you can tell you feel strongly about that one, though, right there.

• 1:33:27Jocko Willink?

  Who, me, or him?

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  No, him.

• 1:33:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, what about me?

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, just, yeah, the look on your face indicated that, for sure.

• 1:33:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:35Speaker 01

  You know, that's a whole nother thing.

• 1:33:36Jocko Willink?

  It's, it's weird, because you go around different pockets of the world, and different pockets of the country, and you see various...

• 1:33:45Jocko Willink?

  Various positions on the slippery slope. Some people hanging on.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:49Jocko Willink?

  But some people are not, and they're just slipping.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:51Jocko Willink?

  And we gotta be careful.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you get, and obviously that's a whole nother topic, but the, you know, and you have so many huge, major, major forces kind of working against it. You know, pushing us to down the slippery slope.

• 1:34:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  Like, marketing, right? You know how like, marketing, most marketing is to appeal to your most like, immediate of wants, you know, like this delicious, uh, double whatever, you know?

• 1:34:18Jocko Willink?

  And it's the girl that's showing the delicious burgers, like.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and guess what? Doesn't even cost that much. Dang, you know, so.

• 1:34:26Jocko Willink?

  It's the gratification for cheap.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, so you can get it.

• 1:34:29Jocko Willink?

  With a little sex thrown on top of that burger.

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, just to make you feel good, you know, whatever, you know, and that's everything. So, you know, again, if you're not, what is it, conscious of your situation or whatever? You might slip a little bit more.

• 1:34:42Jocko Willink?

  Is.

• 1:34:45Jocko Willink?

  Like, I think people lose concentration to this because most people, in my opinion, most people are like, they, they kind of know, you know, like, we go back to the theory of right and wrong, what's right. I think most people are pretty good with it. Like, most people feel pretty, like, they know what's, hey, like, no, that's wrong, right? And they know that, hey, you know what? That's a good thing to do, right? I think most people kind of, like broadly, kind of, kind of would agree with those things.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:12Jocko Willink?

  The problem is, and so that's why I think we don't emphasize as much, because we think, you know what? Hey, man, most people pretty much agree with me. Like, it's like the center people of the country right now, like, and the extreme right, no, the extreme left, no, okay, where are you at? It's like, okay, well, those people that are in the middle, it's like, yeah, we, we kind of figure like, okay, pretty much. And so what happens is, once we don't talk about it as much, well, then, the people that are on the fringes mentally, they end up without a compass, right? They just don't even know what's right and what's wrong anymore. Because people aren't talking about it as much, because it doesn't seem like we need to.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:35:46Jocko Willink?

  I think we might need to.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and why it's right, then it comes down to your approach and like, all this stuff. Cause you know, when you have opposing views, it's like, if you don't do it with the right approach, you just, it becomes more about the fight more so than, you know, the kind. So, yeah, I think you're right about that. I think, are, and are you talking about people, most people know right and wrong? Cause there's a difference between like, just like how you were saying, where. People know right and wrong, but they don't always do what's right, kinda thing.

• 1:36:16Jocko Willink?

  Totally.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  So is that what you're talking about? Like when most people know.

• 1:36:19Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm saying, I'm saying. If you don't teach a kid, like, hey, when you see someone that needs help, you go help them.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:28Jocko Willink?

  Right? Like little old lady crossing the street, right? Right? That seems obvious. Little old lady crossing the street, she's got a grocery bag. You, you go, okay, hey, can I help you with that grocery bag and, you know, help you put it in your car? Maybe for you, you get a little pump while you're at it with that grocery bag.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  Hope she has a bunch.

• 1:36:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So like that's, that seems like a real common sense thing to do. And that's like the most basic example I can think of off the top of my head. Like, okay, so that, that would be a good thing to train. A kid to do. Hey, if you see someone that needs some help, you give them some help.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:01Jocko Willink?

  Especially an elderly person that's having some trouble. That's what you do.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:06Jocko Willink?

  Seems real obvious. But what I'm saying, and, and I think even, I think most people, most kids. Would be like, oh yeah, they'd see that and they would tend to go, okay, I'll help out. But because most people would tend to do that, we think we don't need to teach them.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 1:37:22Jocko Willink?

  And that's where we're losing it.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:24Jocko Willink?

  Like, because the people on the fringes, they're not helping that person. There's someone on the fringe that's gonna like, oh, they dropped their bag and we'll steal it from them.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:30Jocko Willink?

  Right? So that's where we end up with a problem.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

• 1:37:34Jocko Willink?

  And that's why these things probably need to come up as part of a conversation, as, as like a national. Or universal conversations to be had. Like, okay, what is right and wrong? Who's giving those guidances now?

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:47Jocko Willink?

  Where are they coming from? People aren't, people, people aren't reading the Bible anymore to look for their guidance. They're not following Buddhism. To get their guidance from, right? They're just, they're just kind of going around.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:00Jocko Willink?

  So where's that coming from?

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, huh. That's true. They're going, like, going around. They're seeing like, what, okay, they're looking around me like, okay, what are we doing? How are we doing this? Is this right? Is this wrong now?

• 1:38:09Jocko Willink?

  And if, and what are they looking at to get to measure, to, to establish that from? You know what they're looking at? Instagram.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, whatever's around them.

• 1:38:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, whatever's around, but Instagram's around them, YouTube's around them.

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:38:19Jocko Willink?

  That's what's around them. And they're looking at it going, okay, well, this is. You know, that seems like

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  That's what we're doing?

• 1:38:26Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing.

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  Alright, cool, that's what we're doing.

• 1:38:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's okay to sucker punch this, you know, this, this old dude.

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:32Jocko Willink?

  You know, you know, and I feel a little uncomfortable about it, but you know what? It seems normal.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:36Jocko Willink?

  People are doing it.

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  Fun, yeah.

• 1:38:37Jocko Willink?

  Guys were laughing, it got a lot of views.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  Got a lot of views.

• 1:38:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so maybe that's what's cool.

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:42Jocko Willink?

  That's what we need to watch out for.

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and obviously, I know that's an extreme case, but really, that, that, that's true. Where especially, okay, and these extreme cases will happen, by the way, if you don't have any other presence of influence.

• 1:38:54Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  You know how, um, like, oh, I was kinda saying this, I thought it made sense where, okay, your kids or whatever, they're gonna learn how to behave. Whether they learn it from you, or your neighbor, or TV, or the guy at the club, or the guy at the park, whatever, that part is up to you. Like, if you don't wanna be there, they're gonna learn it from somebody else, kinda thing. So, that idea where, okay, what are we, you know, this is a society, like, okay, what are we doing now? How are we doing this? What's right, what's wrong? Is this wrong now, whatever? That we're gonna get that, just like I said, like, we're looking around, we're, we're trying to see what up, you know? And if there's no specific thing saying, or not necessarily a course,

• 1:39:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:34Speaker 01

  even though a course would be cool. Um, if there's nothing present there to demonstrate it, then they're gonna be like, alright, well, what is here to demonstrate it?

• 1:39:43Jocko Willink?

  And what I'm saying is, we've gotten away from things that in the past would've guided us at least somewhat.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  We'll demonstrate it.

• 1:39:49Jocko Willink?

  And where you'd had this sort of, sort of fundamental, universal understanding of like, thou shalt not kill, right?

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:39:59Jocko Willink?

  Well, okay, that, that, that's a biblical thing, and, well, you know, maybe when a kid is fifteen years old, and he's feeling angry about something, and he's thinking, you know what? I play a video game all day where I shoot, like, people in this video game, and that makes me feel better. Well, maybe it'd make me feel better to go out and do that in a school.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:21Jocko Willink?

  Right? That's, that's, that's what happens.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:23Jocko Willink?

  So, if we don't have, if we don't lay out these things for people, even though most people don't need them, there's some people that need them. That's my point, is that we've gotten to a point where we think, you know what? Pretty much everyone kinda gets it. And if everyone kinda gets it, I don't need to emphasize it that much.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:40Jocko Willink?

  And so, I'm not gonna emphasize it.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:42Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's some people that need it.

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and even if you don't quote unquote need it, it's kinda like exercising, you know? I'm in great shape, I don't gotta exercise. Well, yeah, you kinda do, you know?

• 1:40:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's uh, interesting times.

• 1:40:57Jocko Willink?

  This is interesting, speaking of interesting. Instructive talks on morals presented in the classroom often become abstract or involve stories of people from the distant past, so they're not likely to inspire the listener.

• 1:41:14Jocko Willink?

  But moral lessons that can be acquired through Judo's Randori are based on facts and are much more likely to make an impression. And it can be said that the habit of observation, the ability to make decisions quickly and the ability to remain calm and resolute that are cultivated through fighting are also valuable outcomes of the practice of Judo. These abilities, however, will not be developed merely by doing Kada and Randori training without any thought. These abilities will naturally develop when one takes care and thought in practicing them on a daily basis. So, this is, this is something very interesting to think about. So I thought that was great, like, hey, you learn about some, you know, you, you read the Bible a lot, you know?

• 1:41:58Jocko Willink?

  It's like, oh, that doesn't really make sense to me. It's some guy that lived thousands of years ago and, well, I don't really get that. I don't really get why I should be humble, because it says you should be humble. Well, get on the mat. Now you get humbled and you feel, you get humbled, right? So there's, that's, that's like the perfect example of how, hey, what you learn on the mat

• 1:42:18Jocko Willink?

  is, is truly understood. But, if you don't get, if no one, if no, if you don't think about the fact that, hey, that reflects life too, by the way. That reflects life, by the way. If no one makes that connection for you, that's problematic. And I mean, clearly, uh, Jiu-Jitsu, this is a big difference between Jiu-Jitsu and Judo. Like, we talked about what the competitions are like, and you talk about how you get disqualified. Jiu-Jitsu, you have people in Jiu-Jitsu that have bad attitudes, right? They don't, they don't apply what they learn in Jiu-Jitsu. One of the things that, you know, my attitude always is with Jiu-Jitsu is like, if I get, if I beat someone in Jiu-Jitsu.

• 1:42:59Jocko Willink?

  If you, if you understand jujitsu, if you beat someone in jujitsu, you realize that doesn't make you a better person than the person that you beat. What it means is you've trained more than them. That's what it means. Or it means you caught him that time. It means you got lucky with a move. It means they made a mistake and you had trained enough to be able to capitalize on it. It doesn't mean you're a better human being than they are. And there, there are people in jujitsu that think, oh, I am a better human being than that person is because I tapped him out. It's like, actually, no, not true at all.

• 1:43:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:26Jocko Willink?

  So if you're not connecting these bigger, broader lessons and connecting jujitsu to life, then what you have is just, just this isolated sport, which, which is, which is a, it's not even a sport. It's an, it's an isolated might makes right attitude on the mat, which is not a good thing.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:51Jocko Willink?

  It's not a good thing at all. Jujitsu should be making you humble because you should recognize like, oh yeah, well, I've been training longer than this guy and that's why I can beat him. And one day if they keep training more than me, they'll be able to beat me. So hopefully I'll keep training and, and we'll have a relationship and we'll be able to support each other and that's the attitude.

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:10Jocko Willink?

  So I, I think that's one of the things where, you know, you've got, in my mind, you've got judo on one side, which is, you know, really strict and controlled and and less evolutionary because it doesn't evolve as much. And you have jujitsu on the other hand, which is wildly evolutionary. It's incredibly creative. Like there's, there's less creativity in judo. There's way more creativity in jujitsu. And I think in the middle, especially on the attitude part is where jujitsu now is like, you need to, like you go to a jujitsu competition, like little kids that are, they have, they're bad sports, right? They're bad sports. They did not learn sportsmanship. And that's an important thing because what does sportsmanship mean?

• 1:44:55Jocko Willink?

  Sportsmanship doesn't just mean like you're a good sport on the mat. No, it means that in life, you can handle getting beaten and you're going to get back up and you're going to have a good attitude. That's what sportsmanship is. That's why you're trying to teach that to your kids.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:08Jocko Willink?

  Right? And there's a million little things like that in jujitsu that you learn. Like, just the hard training. Well, you, you know what? In jujitsu, sometimes you work hard and you still get beat.

• 1:45:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:20Jocko Willink?

  That's the way life is.

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:45:22Jocko Willink?

  That's the way life is. You work hard, you give everything you got, you're still gonna get beat. Well, guess what? Do you learn from that? You learn about life from that.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:30Jocko Willink?

  The creativity part. If you're stuck in a box on something, and, and he talked about that earlier, like, oh yeah, when he's talking about there's only one path. Again, I talk about him as being a very. Uh, I won't say not creative, but he's, he's got an orderly brain, right? Cause I never look at something that there's one path.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:50Jocko Willink?

  Like, and by the way, if I fail in business. He's like, hey, there's only one path. No, if I fail in business, I'm actually gonna look and see like, well, okay, what other path could I take?

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:58Jocko Willink?

  Now, he's talking about the path of like, like, I'm not saying, hell, no, the hell with discipline and I'm just gonna do whatever I want. So he's saying, stay on that path and that makes sense. But there is a certain lack of creativity there, like, okay, well, if I make a mistake, I'm gonna assess and I'm gonna see what I can do differently. And again, I'm not arguing that that's that he was saying, no, don't ever try anything else, but. That is an important piece that you learn from jujitsu, like, oh, if I can't pass the guard. This person's guard this particular way, I need to take a different approach. You learn that from jujitsu and you can apply it to life. So all these lessons. That if you don't pay attention to what you're learning in jujitsu and you don't reflect on it and put it back on your life. Well, then all you're learning is how to fight people and beat them up.

• 1:46:40Jocko Willink?

  Well, then jujitsu is not doing what it should. It's not doing what it could be doing for you.

• 1:46:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:44Jocko Willink?

  So you need to be careful of that.

• 1:46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think his thing, his one path is, is, it's this really broad and general kind of, it's more of a direction.

• 1:46:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it is, it is. And I, that's a bad example for me to use. Um, but at the same time, I wanna make sure people aren't like, well, you know, I'm gonna stay on the path. I'm gonna stay the course. I'm gonna stay the course. You know what? We failed that time, but it's okay. I'm gonna stay the course. I'm gonna keep going. No, no, no, no, no. Assess. See what you can do differently.

• 1:47:13Jocko Willink?

  Alright, um, effective use of mental and physical energy, again, he's, he's talking about this sekiro zenyo, an integral, which is integral to the teachings of Judo. Competition can be applied to many aspects of life. Those who practice Judo must measure their behavior by this principle on a daily basis and make corrections when appropriate. If you actually apply this standard to every aspect of your life, from food, clothing, and shelter to your work and relationships, you'll find that you often have to correct your own mistakes. Those who do this will make progress day by day and advance in life. Those who fail to do so will never progress and in many cases will regress. So, keep an eye on those little things.

• 1:47:56Jocko Willink?

  With regard to memory, in the early stages of practices of Judo, you must do what you have been taught. In order to do this, you must remember things well. As practice progresses, you must, you must remember not only what you have been taught, but also what you have observed. So there are many situations in which memory is vital. You will develop that ability naturally to come up with ways to remember things. He's talking about some of the benefits of learning Judo, so one of them is you learn to remember things. Next, we come to the area of imagination. This is not particularly necessary during the early stages of the practice of Judo, but becomes quite necessary later. You may experience, experiment with various outcomes, carefully anticipating how your opponent will react, but if there is a limit to the ideas you can come up with, and if

• 1:48:37Jocko Willink?

  the range is narrow, no good ideas will come to you no matter how much time passes. On the other hand, if you come up with a variety of ideas, one after another, and if your thoughts extend to things quite different from your original idea, you can come up with a perfect solution among those ideas. So he talks about creativity.

• 1:48:57Jocko Willink?

  And this is interesting, next comes language. This is very important to the practice of Judo. The reason is, it is, the reason is that in randori as well as in kata, if you try and explain a particular method in words, unless you explain it exceptionally logically and clearly, your listener will not understand what you mean.

• 1:49:20Jocko Willink?

  There are some things that can be demonstrated in detail using Kada while others do not lend themselves to this method. In some cases, you must explain things in writing or verbally. When teaching, whether you demonstrate things through Kada only or by giving a verbal explanation while demonstrating the Kada, makes a big difference to the listener. This is a truism. When you ask something, when you ask someone about something you do not understand, or discuss something in depth, it is highly beneficial if you can talk about it clearly. Thus, it is so in the practice of Judo. Take care, take care to discuss things logically and clearly. So even he talks about the importance of being able to express yourself, and having good command of the language. It applies to Judo.

• 1:50:06Jocko Willink?

  Is that reaching?

• 1:50:07Speaker 01

  Maybe a little bit.

• 1:50:08Jocko Willink?

  But we'll give it to him. I'm gonna give it to him.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, yeah, the way I see it is like, you know, the, what is the laws of combat, simple?

• 1:50:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  That's, that's what I heard.

• 1:50:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you're right. Good call. I like it. Next, I would like to discuss the need for broad-mindedness. Broad-mindedness means open to new ideas as well as the ability to organize various kinds of ideas at the same time without mixing them up. The reason this is important to the practice of Judo is that when there is no broad-mindedness, people often become overly confident in their own beliefs, such that if there are new ideas that are superior, not only do they not accept these new ideas, but in doing so, they fail to determine their value and whether they are good or bad. This is something you see all the time with people with ego. They close mind. They don't listen to anybody else. They don't come up with any new ideas.

• 1:51:01Jocko Willink?

  It's horrible. So keep an open mind.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  My way or the highway?

• 1:51:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:08Speaker 01

  Or is that a different thing?

• 1:51:09Jocko Willink?

  You don't want none of that. My way or the highway.

• 1:51:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:14Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of simple, the theory of judo fighting includes some quite complicated ideas. When we consider the relationship between the body and the four limbs, their positions, how to use them, how to handle the mental aspects, one theory gets mixed up with many others, so it becomes difficult to reach an overall conclusion. Even if we link these complicated theories to look at them separately, the ability to unify them in the end must be the second requirement for broad-mindedness. You gotta be able to connect things, you gotta be able to simplify things.

• 1:51:47Jocko Willink?

  This is interesting. There is a teaching in judo competition that says one must look at the relationship between oneself and others and one's surroundings. So you have to orient, this is udu loop. Yeah. This is udu loop, so you have to orient yourself to what's happening. You have to look around and see what's going on.

• 1:52:09Jocko Willink?

  Another one, in judo fighting, there is a teaching, "saki otori", which means anticipate. Simply put, this means using your waza on your opponent before he can use his waza on you. Boom, be aggressive, default aggressive. Don't wait for the enemy to do something. You do it first.

• 1:52:30Jocko Willink?

  There is another teaching in judo fighting. "Jukiru danke", and this translates to decisive action after careful consideration. Jukiro means carefully considering the situation before attempting to use a waza. Danko means acting without delay once you have made a decision. When this teaching is applied to the path people take in life, it can indeed be relevant in many situations. This is a good one. You consider what you're gonna do, but then once you make a decision, you go. Yeah, you go, full speed. You go full speed, you always reassess. You always keep your mind open, even when I'm like, I made a decision like, hey, you know what? We've debated this enough, let's go.

• 1:53:12Jocko Willink?

  Even when I say that and I mean it, I'm still just making sure, I always make sure. I'm always reassessing.

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:17Jocko Willink?

  I'll run to my death.

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  It seems like he's more talking about like, don't, don't, don't make a decision. Go and then hesitate the whole time.

• 1:53:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's definitely true. And also don't sit there and wait to make a decision. You know, make a decision. But this is what's interesting, here's a, here's a contrast. Back to the book, a further teaching, which seems to be somewhat contradictory to Donko, is known as Tomaru Tokuro Oshider. And that translates, know when to stop. This means that when you venture to use a waza up to a certain point, but when you reach that point, you must stop. Again, this rule has universal applicability to many aspects of life as well. So there you go.

• 1:54:01Jocko Willink?

  You got those two opposing forces. One is like, go. And the other one's like, know when to stop.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:08Jocko Willink?

  So those are, let's just say, very important.

• 1:54:13Jocko Willink?

  One of the most important concepts in judo fighting says, if you win, do not boast of your victory. If you lose, do not be discouraged. When it is safe, do not be careless. When it is dangerous, do not fear. Simply continue down the path ahead.

• 1:54:31Jocko Willink?

  Right? Those are.

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  Normal face.

• 1:54:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Normal face. Yes. Affirmative.

• 1:54:38Jocko Willink?

  When encountering social pressures such as those, such as those we experience today, even an incredibly strong willed person can lose spirit and experience great adversity. This is when we must, this is when he must show true character. At times like these, the ability to overcome difficulties, endure and be patient, preserve one's honor and maintain a spirit of integrity are truly valuable above all else.

• 1:55:06Jocko Willink?

  In order to do this, first you must develop good daily habits. These good habits include simplicity and moderation and while thinking of yourself, always keep other people and society as a whole in mind as well. You must not trouble others for your own convenience and if you can, you must try to benefit others while benefiting yourself. In other words, you must perfect yourself and contribute to society, which is the ultimate purpose of the study of judo. Man, judo is a lot bigger than you thought it was, isn't it? It is, yes, sir. He's trying to take it to the distance.

• 1:55:42Jocko Willink?

  Those who want to do something to benefit society must first make sure they can easily take care of their own business.

• 1:55:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, clean your room, as Jordan says. Take care of your own business, then you can worry about the rest of society. Like the oxygen mask, right? You gotta put it on yourself first, then you put it on your kid. Cause if you're suffocating, how are you gonna help your kid? You're not. You can't. Here we get a little controversy. Professional wrestlers and boxers are generally people of low character.

• 1:56:19Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if I can sign on. Oh, definitely don't sign on with that. And no matter how superior their skills, they are mostly looked down on by society. I guess we'd have to do some research as to what the boxers and wrestlers were like back in his time in Japan. Some KotoCon members have gained popularity performing on tour with them, but I don't believe this behavior is in accord with the aim of judo. True judo practitioners must not be performers. So that's interesting, right? Yeah, that explains a lot, for sure. He wouldn't like McGregor. No, no. No, he don't like McGregor. Looked down upon, for sure. McGregor don't care. No, no. Alright.

• 1:56:59Jocko Willink?

  And this is, again, I had to call these things out, because obviously I don't agree with wrestlers and boxers being people of low character. In fact, I believe the opposite of that, but here's a good one. In the future, when asked to compete against wrestlers or boxers, the competitors must decide whether the judo practitioners will compete under the rules of boxing or wrestling, or whether the opponent will compete under the rules of judo. However, those contests must never be commercialized. They must be merely trials between volunteers for the purpose of research. If for some reason, showmen should get involved, people get charged admission and it becomes a spectator sport,

• 1:57:43Jocko Willink?

  you must recognize that this is in complete violation of the spirit of Kodakon Judo.

• 1:57:49Speaker 01

  Hmm. So what about Olympic Judo then? That's that's a violation.

• 1:57:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things you call, but actually, you know, Judo Gene LaBelle.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:59Jocko Willink?

  He fought, he fought against boxer Milo Savage, 1963. And I think it was Denver. I forget where it was. But yeah, that was like, that's kind of noted as sort of the beginning of like, whatever, popular MMA, right?

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:58:19Jocko Willink?

  Boxer versus judoka.

• 1:58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:21Jocko Willink?

  And Judo Gene LaBelle is a American, um, icon. He's an icon of grappling. If you don't know who Judo Gene LaBelle is, look him up. He's awesome. And he actually, so he did this back in the day, back in 1963. What do you think the outcome was? Boxer versus judo?

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a fight fight?

• 1:58:41Jocko Willink?

  No, they fought, they fought, they fought like in an MMA fight. I mean, it was, it was, it was you fight each other.

• 1:58:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's Gene LaBelle then.

• 1:58:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's Gene LaBelle all day, right?

• 1:58:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:50Jocko Willink?

  Takedown, rear naked choke.

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  That's what he got?

• 1:58:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's what he got. That's how it went. So, yeah. That's, you know, it's just interesting how completely commercialized.

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:05Jocko Willink?

  This is. And it's also interesting that, again, closed mindedness, or I don't know if you call it closed mindedness, but he, he has a very orderly brain.

• 1:59:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:14Jocko Willink?

  And he was like, look, it's either gonna be those rules or these rules. He didn't think to himself like, hey, you know what? What if you just mix it up and do it all together?

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, all rules.

• 1:59:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, all rules. Why wouldn't we do that? Which is interesting because in judo, they do cover striking and you don't hear about it much, but they have, those are part of it. So it's interesting that in his mind, he's like, no, it's either those rules or these rules.

• 1:59:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, very rigid.

• 1:59:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, very rigid thinker. Yeah, that's a good point. Back to the book, in everyday Randori practice, fighting against another person is not the real purpose of the practice of judo. Because fighting to see who will win is interesting, it is done on a daily basis. Yes, it is. It goes without saying that becoming able to beat someone is one of the ultimate goals of the practice of Randori. However, there's clearly a difference between becoming able to beat someone at a future time and becoming obsessed at beating someone now. In order to beat someone now, it is best for those who are strong to use that strength to overcome the other person's strength. However, with that method, if you encounter an opponent who is much stronger than you are, you will naturally lose.

• 2:00:21Jocko Willink?

  So even if you lose for a while, the correct practice of Randori is to slip dexterously away from your opponent, adapt to his strength, cause him to lose his balance while stepping back, and then take advantage of the opportunity to perform a waza. If you do this kind of training, you will, for a while, often be twisted by the arm and held down, or pushed down by your opponent. But if you do not frequently engage in this kind of training, you will never learn how to beat a stronger opponent. So this is what we talk about all the time, when we talk about relaxing, and trying to relax, and putting yourself in bad positions and not using your strength. That's what we're talking about. And again, that applies to life as well.

• 2:01:04Jocko Willink?

  That applies to not staying in your comfort zone. Not continuing to concentrate on what you're good at. Focus on your weaknesses. That's what that talks about.

• 2:01:20Speaker 01

  It's interesting, his, how he said, "Don't, don't be focused on beating the other guy." You know, it's almost, like, Hoiler talked about that, real briefly, right? When I first met him, where he was like, like, it's not, like, you're not looking how big the guy is, how tough he is, what belt he has, and all this stuff. It's like, you're focusing on, on your jujitsu, what's lacking, what I know and don't know. You know, if I'm focusing on the other guy, and I'm gonna beat him and all this stuff, that's not what, what the jujitsu is.

• 2:01:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I'll go ahead and say this, like, this is, this sounds good.

• 2:01:59Jocko Willink?

  It's but we all, I mean, at least every single person I train with, like, we're trying to, we're trying to win.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  Trying to win, yeah.

• 2:02:06Jocko Willink?

  Now, that being said, now, actually, I'm gonna go ahead and correct myself. Like, we train, we wanna win, but, like, you take way more risks training with our, with our training team than you would take if you were training with someone else.

• 2:02:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:21Jocko Willink?

  Right? You take, you know, you take risks, you try new things, you put yourself in bad positions. I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna try this arm lock, I'm gonna try this choke, even though I might end up on the bottom, but that's okay. Well, you know what I mean? So I guess that's true. I don't focus completely on just trying to beat the other person. Yeah, so that's, that's actually very accurate. And I think as you are, as you start this game, that's the best attitude to have is like, hey, you got to relax. And I was talking to a buddy of mine that's just starting jiu-jitsu out, and he's like my age, and, yeah, he's like, man, I'm trying to relax harder. He's like, I'm trying to relax harder. And actually, what I, I sent him a text, and I was like, it's like rock climbing. Have you ever done any rock climbing before?

• 2:03:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:03:01Jocko Willink?

  So there's technique in rock climbing. Like, there's legit technique, obviously. Well, it's not obvious. If you, if you've never rock climbed before, there's a massive amount of technique in rock climbing. It's the way you position your fingers, the way you position your hands, the way you use your legs. You don't hang the weight on your muscles, you hang it on your, your bones and your ligaments, so you're not getting tired, your muscles aren't getting tired out because you're using the technique. If you don't know rock climbing, guess what you do? You hang on to the freaking rock with all your muscle as long as you can. And that's exactly what happens in jiu-jitsu. When your technique is good, you're just gonna hang on.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep.

• 2:03:37Jocko Willink?

  Hang on.

• 2:03:38Speaker 01

  That he, the whole thing about jiu-jitsu and winning, and, and he, and he used the word obsessed. Like, if you, if you jam up and get jammed up.

• 2:03:45Jocko Willink?

  A little bit of a different scenario, isn't it?

• 2:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and really, when you really look at it, I mean, in the moment, yeah, you wanna beat the guy. Like, that's, that's, when you train with someone in jiu-jitsu, or especially when you compete in jiu-jitsu, that's actually where the shift kinda occurs. He mentioned competition as not a spectator sport, this is just for experimental purposes. Did he use it for research?

• 2:04:04Jocko Willink?

  Research.

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, purposes, which is essentially just training, really. So it's like, it's kinda like. Um, kind of how when they started the first UFC, that that was what they were kind of pushing to. They're like, we're gonna see how what martial arts.

• 2:04:17Jocko Willink?

  Style versus style.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  Exactly right. And but really, you know, the the thing that people came to see was that for sure. But it was a show like who's gonna win and all this stuff. And when you really look at it, so UFC one, two, all these things. It was, I don't want to say rare, but it was almost rare when, aside from Hoist Gracie, of course. And, you know, Ken Shamrock and stuff like this. It was really rare to see the style get maintained. It was like these karate guys and they had their stance and the fight would start and it's just this street fight. Yeah, exactly right. So, and that was part of the research kind of, kind of thing. But, you know, people were there to see who's gonna kick who's ass. But it in jujitsu, when you really, when you really think about it. You, we are kind of maintaining that, like, we want to see.

• 2:05:02Jocko Willink?

  We, we are researching all the time.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:05Jocko Willink?

  How is this gonna work?

• 2:05:05Speaker 01

  And here, you can, you can fall back and forth. Like, sometimes you can get sucked into being obsessed with beating that guy. And maybe if you kind of use it, you know, it's like using anger to help you, I don't know, get more strength or something, just for a moment or whatever. I, I kind of think that's okay. And I think we all kind of do it in one way or another, not the anger thing necessarily, but that I'm gonna, like me and you, for example. I might incorporate a little bit of today, so I'm gonna get Jocko today. That's what I'm kind of focused on for a second. Yeah, yeah, for a second to help me get better, maybe even get me past a mental barrier or something like that. You know, you can do it, but the big picture is just what he's talking about. I just want to get better at my jujitsu kind of thing.

• 2:05:42Jocko Willink?

  And I will say this too. I ego wise, I think it's very positive to be like, yeah, I don't want to lose. And, and the only way you're not gonna lose is to train all the time.

• 2:05:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:56Jocko Willink?

  So the days that you, the days that you're like, well, you know, I don't like yesterday. I, I was on a different time zone, came back. It was, I got back in the day, I had a work to do as soon as I hit the ground. I got done with that, I hit a quick workout. And now it's like, oh, it's guess what time it is? Jujitsu time. And I'm like, well, you know, it's like, oh, well. You know, maybe it's been a long day. My shoulder kinda hurts right now. So maybe I'll just, you know, rest. Then I was like, no, I'm going to train because because what I know is not training. It's it's this is it's not training. One day might not make a difference.

• 2:06:37Jocko Willink?

  But that one day does make a difference. You might not. You might tell yourself it doesn't make a difference, but there's that. There's something in there. There's every day of training you can get matters. Every day counts. You can't get it back. And if you miss it, you miss it, especially like right now, where I've been traveling a lot lately, way more than normal. So I know like if I gotta get there, I gotta get my rounds in. Gotta get my rounds in. That's the way it's gotta be. And part of that is my ego. Part of this is my ego saying, look. I gotta, you know, I gotta fight. I gotta struggle. I gotta be stay on top. I gotta stay on top of the mountain as high as I can, right?

• 2:07:11Speaker 01

  Young hungry lions out here.

• 2:07:12Jocko Willink?

  The young bucks are out there. They're coming after me.

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:07:15Jocko Willink?

  I appreciate that, but that keeps me in check. My ego, the positive part of ego is that I do. I do wanna win. And I don't wanna get beat. Now, that being said, guess who I train with? I train with all the guys that most likely to beat me. That's what I want. I want to have that happen. So there's a balance. There's a good balance there.

• 2:07:33Speaker 01

  And at the end of the day, there's really no escaping, and I think it's real prevalent, like for you and Dean and the. It's really prevalent where sure, you have all that. You have all those thoughts, you know, in your head or whatever, but it all comes. The whole reason you have that thought is to get better at at jujitsu.

• 2:07:50Jocko Willink?

  For sure. Yeah, cuz when you start jujitsu, you like, some people, even me, like, well, you know, I just, I just wanna get good enough to like, you know, be able to defend myself. Well, after six months, man, you're good. So what am I doing here 25 years later, still doing the same damn thing? Cuz like there's a couple of guys that I, you know, I wanna keep ahead of or even with or catch, you know, like that's what's driving. So there's, there's a definite ego thing involved. Uh, but.

• 2:08:17Jocko Willink?

  I think the other where that goes too far, the ego goes too far. This is obvious answer is like, oh, I don't really, you know, I'm not going to train with that guy because he might catch me. Right? Then now you're not, now you're not progressing. Now you're in this thing that he's talking about. Like you're not going to progress because you're not going to train with that person. Or you're not going to take any risks whatsoever. So you're just going to defend, defend. And you're like, oh, I survived the round and I'm out of here.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:38Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta, you, you gotta keep that attitude of like, hey, I'm gonna get beat. And you know, that's the thing. Jiu Jitsu works, man.

• 2:08:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:46Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu works. And if somebody catches you.

• 2:08:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:48Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't matter who they are.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:08:49Jocko Willink?

  They catch you, Jiu Jitsu works. You tap out, you go again. That's the beautiful thing about Jiu Jitsu.

• 2:08:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:08:54Jocko Willink?

  That's the beautiful thing about life. Because in life, you're not going to win every time. You're going to get caught. You're going to make mistakes. Someone's going to capitalize on them. So what are you going to do? You're going to give up? And even more important than that, you can lose. You can lose. Is whatever thing you're trying to do, you can lose. You're trying to start a new business, you can lose. You're trying to get a new job, you can lose. You can lose in life. So are you going to prevent that from even getting, let that prevent you from even getting on the mat in the first place? On even trying to start a new business, even trying to, trying to do something that's outside your comfort zone. That's what this, that's what this is saying is get outside your comfort zone.

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:31Jocko Willink?

  Don't sit there. It's not going to help you.

• 2:09:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you can see it with, with the guys who you can tell are just focused on like being the guy who beat the other guy kind of thing. And they'll do those kinds of things. They'll roll. And then when they, after, you know, two, three rounds, when they're, they feel their steam kind of going down, they'll leave. Or they'll sit on the side and talk and be like, I'm not rolling anymore. Or they're only role small guys.

• 2:09:53Jocko Willink?

  I did that to Andy yesterday.

• 2:09:55Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:09:55Jocko Willink?

  We did like six rounds and I was like, bro, I need some backup. Cause you know, he's training for events. You know, I'm like, I'm, I'm going to give, I was like, hey, I called Dr. Luke. I'm like, Dr. Luke. Give me some help over here, I need some backup.

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

• 2:10:10Jocko Willink?

  You know, cuz gotta, gotta get him to step it up. But what's interesting, or what's the reality is, when I have the time, or when I, not when I have the time, but like, I always get my rounds in too. Like, we're doing, if we got two guys that are competing and we're doing, you know, two in, one out. Like, I put them through it, and then I go through it too, cuz I wanna get my training, cuz I'm trying to get better too, to your point.

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're not in there trying to be gandy.

• 2:10:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, no. I'm trying to get better.

• 2:10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's exactly what I mean. And it's obvious, you know, uh, but you know, you know what's a big symptom of someone who's, who's focusing on the wrong thing is like, if they don't do well or whatever, and they say stuff like, "Oh, you're lucky this isn't MMA," or something like that. They're like, they're unhappy about the fact that they got beat by you specifically, you know? Like, I used to train with this guy, will remain nameless, uh, a long time ago, and that's what he'd always say. Like, "Oh yeah, if there were strikes, I would've won," kinda thing. He'd say that kinda stuff all the time. I was like, "Bro, focusing on the wrong thing right now. The fact that you quote unquote "got beat," or "I beat you," and this is how you would've beat me, you know? You're focused on the wrong thing."

• 2:11:17Jocko Willink?

  Why do you think I do, cuz I do this. I do the opposite. When I roll with someone, and I'll be like, "Hey," you know, like, I'll catch him or whatever, and I'll be like, "Yeah, you know, hey, if this was MMA," like, let's say I'm going to the MMA fighter and I catch him. I'll be like, "Hey, you know, if this was MMA, you know, you were on top for a while, you'd have been pounding me in the face. That would've been good. You would've won." Or if I'm going against a jiu-jitsu guy and I catch him or something, I'll be like, "Yeah, you know, though, if that was points, though, you were up like eight points. You probably would've beat me, and that was a, that took me fifteen minutes to get, so you would've won."

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's, I, I, obviously, I don't know exactly what's going on in your head, but it seems like that would be something you'd say to someone to make them kinda feel better, cuz you know, there are, it's a little mini-competition in there, for real. I mean, that's essentially what makes it so good, because he's giving you an accurate look how a motivated opponent, attacker, whatever, would look like. He's going full speed against you. So there is that element of like, we're competing against each other. And when you lose, it's kind of like, oh, I lost to this guy. Especially if you're not that used to training or or.

• 2:12:12Jocko Willink?

  So I'm just being nice.

• 2:12:13Speaker 01

  You're being nice, I think, yeah. And at the same time, if you're saying stuff like, hey, if this was MMA, you'd be pounding me or something like that. That there could be a little element of your own training, kind of like you're just voicing your own thoughts. Like, okay, I kept that in mind where, you know, I would have got hit there. And you're just kind of voicing it, maybe for the benefit of yourself as well as the guy. I don't know that that's what it seems like would happen if someone was thinking those things.

• 2:12:38Jocko Willink?

  Check. Well, you know, that's, we could go on this book for a long time. I think that's a good place to reflect and say, look, there's a lot of principles that you can apply. Judo and Jiu Jitsu, there's things that Jiu Jitsu should, you should take from Jiu Jitsu. And things that you should take from Judo principles. And if you mix those two together, you get something that's really powerful, not just on the mat, but something that's really powerful to apply to your life. Again, is everything in this theories perfect? No. Somebody asked me that the other day. I was with a group of young leaders and someone, because I was talking about how it's beneficial to read about history and understand warfare and understand it gives you an insight into human nature.

• 2:13:23Jocko Willink?

  It gives you an insight into people, the way people think and all this stuff. And this guy says, hey, do you ever think that maybe what you read was wrong? And if you apply what was you read, you'll actually end up making a mistake? Or do you just follow what you know, history? And I'm like, no, that's the whole reason. I go, because the more you read, the more you understand, the more different angles you see. And I'm questioning every decision I make. I'm questioning all these things all the time. And I'm using all these just different information that I have in my head as sounding boards to check off of like what, at least let me shed some light on it, gather some intelligence. That's what, that's what I'm trying to do. So yeah, question yourself and question these theories. That's what I think, that's one of the best things about.

• 2:14:08Jocko Willink?

  It's one of the best things about MMA and Jiu Jitsu and fighting right now is that it's evolving so fast. Yeah. And, and, and it's open for it. And if you're not down for that right now, you're gonna be left in the dust. You're gonna be left in the dust. Does this mean that every fancy new move that comes out should be applied to your game? No, it doesn't mean that at all. Does it mean that every fancy gi Jiu Jitsu move that you saw in Worlds would be super effective in a fistfight? No, it doesn't mean that at all. But should you have an open mind to understand that some of those things could be absolutely beneficial? Uh, yes, you definitely should. Yeah. So, keep an open mind with everything that you're doing. You know, that idea of broad mindedness. Sometimes I wish Kena would have had a little bit more broad mindedness. Yeah. Cause that, you know, it would have been beneficial.

• 2:14:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You know, that's one of the sad things about Judo is they, they outlawed the double leg takedown in Judo. You can't do it, you can do it after you've done another takedown attempt. So it can be like a follow on. Gotcha. But that's not cool. No. That's not cool. I can see that. And it's the same thing with, with Jiu Jitsu, right? Where they outlaw certain submissions. Mm-hmm. Like, uh, the, the heel hook with gi Jiu Jitsu. Yeah. Right? Like, the heel hook is still there. The heel hook itself is still there in the, in the... The motion of... Yeah. Like, it's there. You shouldn't outlaw it. It should be part of it. Yeah. Cause then you have people ending up in positions where they're not effective fighting positions. They're not. Cause you can get heel hooked and you get your knee torn apart. Yeah.

• 2:15:37Jocko Willink?

  So why would you outlaw something that's very effective? It's, it's, I understand there is some danger in the heel hook. For those of you that don't know, the danger of the heel hook is that it doesn't create pain before it creates industry, in injury. Well, it doesn't create a lot of pain before it creates industry, in injury. So you can feel, you can have a heel hook on you and you can be like, "Oh, I can get out of this." Yeah. And the person starts applying pressure and you're like, "Oh, that doesn't really hurt." And then pop, you're, you're, you have to go get surgery now. Yeah. That's the problem with heel hooks. But if you and your training partners understand that, and if competitors understood, like, "Hey, if I get caught here, I, I'm gonna end up in surgery if I don't tap." Yeah. So, that's, if you understand that, then you won't go in these positions that, where you're exposed to a heel hook.

• 2:16:20Jocko Willink?

  So, that's what you should do, not only with Jiu Jitsu, but you should do with life too. Like, understand what really works. Don't outlaw things, don't avoid things just because you're not good at them. Yeah. Open yourself up to them.

• 2:16:33Speaker 01

  Do you know why they don't, they really don't allow heel hooks in gi competition? Do you know why?

• 2:16:40Jocko Willink?

  Are you asking me that question?

• 2:16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you know the reason for that? That they say it?

• 2:16:43Jocko Willink?

  I think it's because the, the possibility of injury.

• 2:16:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, the no gi, they let it. Why? Cause you can slide more in no gi or something?

• 2:16:50Jocko Willink?

  I think that's, I think that might be just tradition. But hopefully, you know, they should allow double leg takedowns in judo. They should allow heel hooks in jujitsu? In, in gi jujitsu? Now, this doesn't mean if you roll with me and we're rolling gi, you just slap a heel hook on me? Because I, I won't be expecting that. And I'll be pissed.

• 2:17:10Speaker 01

  Or that should be part of your training.

• 2:17:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:13Speaker 01

  And so congratulations.

• 2:17:14Jocko Willink?

  Well, it is. Yeah, I guess you're right. I need to tighten it up.

• 2:17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was saying, that is one of those things. Here's what it is with the heel, with gi. Like if someone busts a, cause it's so widely known as, as, uh, disrespectful. Yeah, it's like, so if, if you get a guy, especially, let's say, extreme scenario. A new guy comes in, he's a purple belt. Hungry blue belt. He comes in, he rolls with, you know, one of the instructors, black belt or whatever, gi, you know, they're rolling and he's going super hard. And he goes for a heel hook. Pause right there.

• 2:17:46Speaker 01

  Technically, the what, what, as far as what we're talking about, that should be okay. We're all here training, we're all getting better, he's going hard, thank, thanks for the good training kind of thing. He did a, but we're essentially trained to see heel hooks with the gi as, as disrespectful. It's against the rules.

• 2:18:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's against the rules.

• 2:18:04Speaker 01

  It's so embedded in, it's, it's embedded in the culture, really. But really, but as far as what we're talking about? Like, it's, it's really okay, you know? He's busting out a heel hook.

• 2:18:14Jocko Willink?

  I'll say no, that's not okay. And the reason I'm saying that, I know this is like contradictory for me because, but this is the similar thing. Right? If you, if you came into the gym and like... You went for heel hook on me, we were training gi, and I started punching in the face. Right? That like, like you weren't expecting that, but you should be prepared for it. So there is.

• 2:18:37Speaker 01

  If I understand, if you understand that that's what you're training, like, oh, are we street rules punches legal allowed or whatever?

• 2:18:44Jocko Willink?

  I'm saying there's, there's certain things that are universally, as far as I, I have not been anywhere and I talked to a lot of Jiu Jitsu people and I roll a lot of different Jiu Jitsu places, where it's like you're wearing a gi, you're, it's your, you're cleared hot to do heel hooks.

• 2:18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:57Jocko Willink?

  I have not seen that anywhere.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  Me neither.

• 2:18:59Jocko Willink?

  It should be that way.

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, cr- technically, the thing is, I'm with you and there, you know, there's exceptions of course, and just because I happened as Craig Baker will allow, he'll even say, yeah, yeah, you can heel hook. It doesn't come up because just like what we're saying, it's so widely known and understood from the beginning.

• 2:19:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:17Speaker 01

  You don't do heel hooks with a gi. It's just, but why is that? We don't really think about, why is that and does it?

• 2:19:23Jocko Willink?

  Well, because those are the recognized sanctioned rules.

• 2:19:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:19:27Jocko Willink?

  Just like the recognized sanctioned rules say that if we're grappling, I'm not gonna start punching you in the face.

• 2:19:33Speaker 01

  No, but, no, because that's punching in the face is not grappling. Like if he, punching in the face does deviate from when you, when you start learning Jiu Jitsu, unless it's understood that that's the kind of training you're gonna get. So here's the thing, okay, when I put on the gi, these ru- these moves are not allowed, right? There's no.

• 2:19:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:53Speaker 01

  I don't know, there's no rules. I mean, sure, IBJJF, but you know, most, there's a probably bigger percentage of people that do Jiu Jitsu have never competed in IBJJF tournament, probably the majority of people, yet we're following IBJJF rules in training sometimes. Even though actually the gi competitions, I've never heard of a gi competition that allows heel hooks.

• 2:20:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:13Speaker 01

  Even at Black Belt, but who, that's not the point. The point isn't that they're not allowed, so don't do them. That's not the point. The point is, why are they not allowed? Given what we're just talking about.

• 2:20:22Jocko Willink?

  They're, in my, in my opinion, they're not allowed because of the propensity or possibility of an injury or I, People think that there's a high possibility you could get injured there. They're somewhat accurate because it is a different kind of pain, it was a lack of pain. And so there's a little bit of accuracy there.

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I dig it and I see if, you know, especially if that is true as far as why they want it. Cause some people might say they don't want it because jujitsu was always looked at as this linear thing. Like Don, Don mentioned, kind of mentioned part of this where, you know, you get past the legs and you work your way up his body to tap him out. And you can start tapping him out when you get up to the upper body. And the legs were just something you had to get past because they're going to try to kick you and, you know, they have leverage on their own body and all this stuff. And that's it. That's traditionally how we look at jujitsu and that's the effectiveness. Jujitsu is, jujitsu is the best and all this stuff. Now you get, you know, a new person or someone from Sambo or whatever will come in and be like, oh, that's jujitsu?

• 2:21:24Speaker 01

  Or let me go ahead and kind of flip it upside down a little bit and change what this jujitsu is. And they're like, we don't like that kind of thing.

• 2:21:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that could be why.

• 2:21:33Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, that's what I've heard.

• 2:21:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, could be why.

• 2:21:36Speaker 01

  So let me ask you this.

• 2:21:37Jocko Willink?

  I have, I have heard like that people's initial reaction, I think I've heard Dean say this, like if your reaction is like, oh, that's not good for my game. Well, just outlaw it.

• 2:21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:49Jocko Willink?

  So there's that as well.

• 2:21:51Speaker 01

  That's what it resulted in.

• 2:21:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:52Speaker 01

  Cause all jujitsu guys are training this specific way.

• 2:21:54Jocko Willink?

  Judo did, hey, double leg takedowns are not good for judo against a wrestler. You get someone that's been wrestling for 27 years and they come into judo competition, they hit a double leg. It's not good for the judo player.

• 2:22:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're cheating.

• 2:22:08Jocko Willink?

  Kind of thing. Yeah. And so guess what? Outlaw him.

• 2:22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:11Jocko Willink?

  Which is a bummer.

• 2:22:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:22:12Jocko Willink?

  And so, yeah, I'm not, I'm not pro outlawing anything.

• 2:22:14Speaker 01

  That was the ultimate point there. That's what I heard.

• 2:22:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:17Speaker 01

  So let me ask you this. Do you think in training heel hooks with the gi, just you personally? You think they should be allowed heel hooks with the gi?

• 2:22:27Jocko Willink?

  I think they should be allowed every time, all the time, everywhere, but they are not right now. And therefore, in my mentality is like, okay. Because I'm not gonna put myself in a position that a heel hook is available to you unless I know that they're not available.

• 2:22:42Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah, I did, and I dig it, and actually, I agree, that's the same thing, like, like if we were gonna roll and I just did it, no good. But if I said, hey, before we rolled, like when we're walking, or even right before we kinda, you know, shook hands, whatever, I said, hey, heel hooks are a go. That would change the game.

• 2:22:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it would change the game for sure.

• 2:22:59Speaker 01

  Okay, so same thing, like if you're doing no gi, and you know how guys, like, they just don't know or whatever, and they'll grab your shorts, they'll grab your shirt, rash guard, whatever, they'll grab it, you know? Cause they just don't know, even if you, it's the same deal, less dangerous, of course, but same deal where it's like, when you start doing that, they'll stop and be like, hey, you can't do that, kinda thing. But if you say, before you roll, hey, yeah, you can grab shorts, whatever, up to you, just don't pull them off or something like that, it's kinda one of those deals.

• 2:23:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you could, I guess, make some ad hoc rules before you start rolling, but.

• 2:23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:31Jocko Willink?

  Or just go with what's universally accepted at this time.

• 2:23:34Speaker 01

  Slaps in the face are legal.

• 2:23:36Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes.

• 2:23:36Speaker 01

  It's cool, whatever.

• 2:23:37Jocko Willink?

  Check. Alright, well, like I said, a lot of stuff to learn from

• 2:23:46Jocko Willink?

  Judo and Jiu Jitsu to make yourself better in those sports and in life, so, good.

• 2:23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the, I, I was actually pretty, I don't wanna say impressed, but pretty, yeah, impressed with the whole book.

• 2:24:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:05Speaker 01

  Except for the part about telling people how to eat.

• 2:24:07Jocko Willink?

  Telling people how to eat, uh, the calisthenics are no good, uh, being buff is a waste of time, there's, there's definitely some, and I.

• 2:24:15Speaker 01

  There's some truth to that, I know.

• 2:24:17Jocko Willink?

  It's weird, cause as I'm preparing the podcast, I'm like, okay, do I just say the things in here that I agree with?

• 2:24:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:24Jocko Willink?

  Cause that's one way I could do it, do I, because one thing that's, I, I was thinking about, when I read a quote from a book, people, do they kinda think like, well, I agree with that? Like, I support this, unless I outwardly just reject it? And I kind of did half the book where I was like, well, you know, I, I don't really talk about that, cause I see where he's coming from, but that's not really my gig. And then I got to other parts where I was like, I have to talk about the fact that he thinks that this stuff is, you know, this is a completely different than what I think, you know?

• 2:24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:54Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, I tr- I guess I try and explain myself as I talk about it. But yeah, there's, there's definitely some things that, that I don't agree with. There's some things that I don't agree with about, about Judo, like, you know, there's things that I don't agree with about Jiu-Jitsu. I thi- that's why I think there's a good mixture of the two that would be very powerful.

• 2:25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:11Jocko Willink?

  Bring, we need to bring Dave Camarero on.

• 2:25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:14Jocko Willink?

  Or, you know, some of these other guys that have grown up in Judo and are savage at Jiu-Jitsu.

• 2:25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. I agree.

• 2:25:21Jocko Willink?

  So anyways, cool. Well, speaking of, you know, getting better in Jiu-Jitsu and getting better in life.

• 2:25:28Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:25:28Jocko Willink?

  Any suggestions on how people could get better?

• 2:25:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so when you get, when you start doing Jiu-Jitsu, what kind of gi you're gonna get? That's probably one of the one, two, three, maybe four questions you're gonna have, the first four. What kind of gi you get, you get, that's gonna be one of them. That's my guess.

• 2:25:47Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:25:47Speaker 01

  That's my, uh, prediction. Um, shoot, you can be in Jiu-Jitsu and still say, hey, what kind of gi should I get? You know, new gi, whatever. Anyway, here's the answer. Origin, you get an Origin gi, that's what you do. Cause they are factually, factually, see how rigid I'm being right there?

• 2:26:05Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:26:06Speaker 01

  Factually the best gees there are. All made in America, by the way. Different types of gees there. They got some new stuff, by the way. Pete just sent me some new stuff. It's not that new, they're just different like styles. It's not gees, they're, it's, uh, what I get, some sweats.

• 2:26:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:26:21Speaker 01

  Which happened to be, happened to be the most comfortable sweats in my experience in life.

• 2:26:27Jocko Willink?

  He sent you new stuff and he didn't send it to me?

• 2:26:28Speaker 01

  Sorry, bro, you know, some people-

• 2:26:29Jocko Willink?

  They must be joggers or something.

• 2:26:30Speaker 01

  They are, they totally are, and they're, yeah, they're really good. But nonetheless, back to the gees. Um, yeah, get them at originmaine.com, that's a good one. Support yourself, support the Jiu-Jitsu, support life.

• 2:26:44Jocko Willink?

  Support America.

• 2:26:46Speaker 01

  America, oh yes.

• 2:26:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause they're made in America.

• 2:26:47Speaker 01

  Yep. From the dirt to the shirt.

• 2:26:49Jocko Willink?

  From the dirt to the shirt.

• 2:26:51Speaker 01

  Which means the cotton that is grown in America gets, turns into a gi somehow. Pete does that part.

• 2:26:57Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it kinda cool to think that when you put on a gi, like there's, that gi came from a factory in Maine, came from a, from a factory in Maine that was built specifically to make jiu jitsu gis? And that there's people up there, workers up there, craftsmen up there that are sewing that gi for you? And then it gets put from Maine into a bag and sent to your, isn't that kinda, right?

• 2:27:23Speaker 01

  It is, yeah.

• 2:27:24Jocko Willink?

  It's not like, can a gi, can a gi have soul? I'm gonna ask you that question. Can a gi have soul? We don't know the answer to that question.

• 2:27:33Speaker 01

  Kinda metaphorically speaking, I guess, yeah.

• 2:27:35Jocko Willink?

  But, but we can make it an assessment from the outside. If a gi has soul, then you'd want that soul to come from Maine.

• 2:27:45Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 2:27:46Speaker 01

  And if certain gis had souls and some gis didn't have souls, you would for sure want the gi with the soul.

• 2:27:52Jocko Willink?

  Yes, absolutely. And if gis do indeed have souls, which I tend to believe they do.

• 2:27:58Speaker 01

  They could.

• 2:27:59Jocko Willink?

  Then you'd want the good souls, the American souls from Maine.

• 2:28:03Speaker 01

  Yep. Well, if Pete starts making shoes, you'll know that they'll have souls.

• 2:28:09Jocko Willink?

  Wow.

• 2:28:11Jocko Willink?

  Echo made a funny.

• 2:28:13Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, originmaine.com, that's where you get them also in jiu jitsu. Okay, we gotta be honest here. In jiu jitsu, it's physical. You twist your arms, your neck, your body, not twist like injure it, but you, you know, it gets some work. And with work needs recovery, with recovery comes supplementation, good supplementation. Krill oil. I feel like I've said the word krill oil probably more than I've said any other food item or dietary supplement in my whole life.

• 2:28:42Jocko Willink?

  Good.

• 2:28:43Speaker 01

  I'm kinda happy about it because of how beneficial it's got, got more krill oil too, by the way, from Pete with the joggers. Which are nice, by the way. Um, also another one called joint warfare. These are all Jocko supplements, by the way, if you didn't know. Super krill, not just regular, super Jocko super krill. Joint warfare, which is another formula for joint maintenance, reconstruction. Someone said, hey, I got knee surgery, is this gonna help me? Yes.

• 2:29:12Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:29:13Speaker 01

  It will help your knee recover, especially the meniscus situation.

• 2:29:16Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 2:29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 2:29:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:29:19Speaker 01

  Anything where, okay, so I'm not gonna go too deep into it, but anything involving cartilage, like these that don't get a bunch of blood flow.

• 2:29:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:29:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. They tend to degenerate over, well, everything degenerates, but over time.

• 2:29:35Jocko Willink?

  Not for everyone.

• 2:29:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, no complacency, right? No backing off. Nonetheless, joint warfare, that's a good one. Maintain the joints, and this goes for any kind of physical activity. Your joints will thank you, or you'll thank your joints. You'll thank Jocko for Jocko, krill oil, and joint warfare. Also, discipline, not just regular discipline, it's a supplement, discipline, it's a pre-mission.

• 2:30:03Speaker 01

  Cognitive enhancing.

• 2:30:05Jocko Willink?

  Because people were making stuff that helped you physically, like a pre-workout, and then they were making nootropics that would help you mentally, like your cognition.

• 2:30:13Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:30:14Jocko Willink?

  And, well, in my job, especially my old job, guess what I needed? Both.

• 2:30:19Speaker 01

  Both, yeah.

• 2:30:20Jocko Willink?

  I needed to be mentally sharp, and I needed to be physically sharp.

• 2:30:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:24Jocko Willink?

  So I wanted everything in the same, like, mix.

• 2:30:27Speaker 01

  Sure. Bland.

• 2:30:29Jocko Willink?

  That's why we made the discipline.

• 2:30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you didn't wanna do the pre-workout, and then boom, and then, okay, let me go ahead and take the other one right here. Okay, boom, and then, you know, you wanted to.

• 2:30:38Jocko Willink?

  Get them both.

• 2:30:38Speaker 01

  Get them both, one time, one hit, one win.

• 2:30:42Jocko Willink?

  And you feel it, and it feels good.

• 2:30:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:45Jocko Willink?

  That's what, like, yesterday, I was talking about the rounds I did.

• 2:30:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:48Jocko Willink?

  Cause I knew I was coming in, I was gonna pay the man, so I just.

• 2:30:51Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:30:51Jocko Willink?

  Hit the discipline.

• 2:30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Tastes good, too, by the way.

• 2:30:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Tastes amazingly good. What's interesting about it is, cause that's monk fruit.

• 2:30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:59Jocko Willink?

  It's monk fruit. You know what about monk fruit?

• 2:31:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:31:02Jocko Willink?

  Monk fruit is the sweetener that's used in discipline. It's like, whatever, eighty-seven thousand times sweeter than sugar, but it's just a fruit.

• 2:31:10Speaker 01

  Put a little bit in.

• 2:31:11Jocko Willink?

  So you only need a little tiny bit in there? Low glycemic index.

• 2:31:16Speaker 01

  It's low on the glycemic.

• 2:31:17Jocko Willink?

  Low on the glycemic index. So it doesn't give you the insulin spike.

• 2:31:24Speaker 01

  And we'll just say, that's good.

• 2:31:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, just so people know, there's caffeine in it. Uh, but there's only fifteen milligrams of caffeine, so you're not gonna get jittery, but you get a little, a little microdose.

• 2:31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:36Jocko Willink?

  Of Get Som.

• 2:31:36Speaker 01

  A little help, a little, little caffeine helper.

• 2:31:40Jocko Willink?

  But monk fruit also, it like helps and it's, it's legit.

• 2:31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Other benefits on that one. Nonetheless, it's called discipline. Tastes good, cause Jock wants it to taste good.

• 2:31:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that kinda freaked you out.

• 2:31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, threw me off, for sure.

• 2:31:54Jocko Willink?

  You thought, maybe I just want things to taste horrible, so it takes more discipline to drink it.

• 2:31:57Speaker 01

  Not blacky went like that. I was like, hmm, interesting that that was part of the focus, but hey, good. I say good.

• 2:32:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, you're gonna be really happy that I have this attitude when the, when the protein comes out.

• 2:32:08Speaker 01

  Sure, mint chocolate chip.

• 2:32:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the mint chocolate chip. You know, um, just FYI.

• 2:32:13Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:32:14Jocko Willink?

  It's not normal. And it's got the monk fruit in it, so that's the sweetener, so it tastes delish. And it doesn't taste like anything else. There's no way that it could taste this good and, and be what it is.

• 2:32:30Speaker 01

  Gotcha, yeah, okay.

• 2:32:31Jocko Willink?

  So I just made up, I had to make up my own name for it.

• 2:32:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I dig it. You did the right thing.

• 2:32:38Jocko Willink?

  It's called Molk. M-O-L-K, with the umlaut over the O. You know why? Tribute to Motorhead.

• 2:32:46Speaker 01

  Layers, bro.

• 2:32:47Jocko Willink?

  Layers.

• 2:32:48Speaker 01

  Good, man. I, I think that's good.

• 2:32:50Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, pretty soon people are gonna be on the Molk.

• 2:32:52Speaker 01

  When is that?

• 2:32:53Jocko Willink?

  Couple of weeks. We've got it. We went through the final testing. It's so, uh, it's so, it tastes good. It's easy to digest, easy, all the good things.

• 2:33:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause, and they, so remember back in the day.

• 2:33:04Jocko Willink?

  Especially it's Molk.

• 2:33:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it kinda sounds like mead.

• 2:33:10Jocko Willink?

  This is like, I don't even know what to say. This isn't, it's not like a chocolate milkshake, it's not like a protein shake, it's like, it's like, it's like Molk.

• 2:33:18Speaker 01

  I don't know, man.

• 2:33:21Speaker 01

  Remember, uh, Mega Mass, I think it was five thousand or three thousand or one thousand? Was it five thousand?

• 2:33:26Jocko Willink?

  Probably.

• 2:33:27Speaker 01

  No, it was one thousand.

• 2:33:28Jocko Willink?

  Two thousand.

• 2:33:29Speaker 01

  Five hundred, it might have been.

• 2:33:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:33:31Speaker 01

  I think that was at South Park, that was 5,000. With double super colostrum seven. Super, I don't know.

• 2:33:38Jocko Willink?

  They always had these crazy, we used to make fun of those.

• 2:33:40Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, it was super delicious. It was like a big like dog food bag. Full of mega mass, what, 500 or whatever it was. Chocolate, you drink it and it tastes straight up like a chocolate milkshake. And guess what? It probably was just a chocolate.

• 2:33:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, that's the thing. That's, you see all kind of like, quote, health foods nowadays, like, oh, this pro, you look at the, look at the thing on a protein bar.

• 2:34:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:03Jocko Willink?

  And then compare the protein bar to a Snickers bar. And it's like the same content inside of it. So, whatever.

• 2:34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:10Jocko Willink?

  You have to be careful.

• 2:34:11Speaker 01

  I saw.

• 2:34:11Jocko Willink?

  That's what's cool, that's what was cool about discovering the monk fruit. Is, is being able to make stuff taste really good without having the crap. Artificial sweeteners in it.

• 2:34:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a way, that's kind of going back to your roots, right? Like where, where it's like, okay, we got sweetness. Sweetness is a thing. It's a natural thing. We like it. You know, for a reason, all this stuff. Cool, man. Don't do away with the sweetness.

• 2:34:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:31Speaker 01

  But, you know, when you start engineering foods to like, to, to, kind of like the advertising I was talking about.

• 2:34:37Jocko Willink?

  But wait, maybe I should come up with something that just tastes horrible. You just have to gut check to taste it, just to test yourself mentally.

• 2:34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, see how good that does. Yeah, man, I'm sure everyone will get that.

• 2:34:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it's just the mulk.

• 2:34:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the mulk. Who made that word up? You? Oh, yeah, motor. Gotcha. Nonetheless, that's gonna be available. The mulk. Is gonna be available in a few weeks, apparently.

• 2:35:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:00Speaker 01

  Uh, for the joint work for Anne Super Krill, and this is a good idea, by the way. Do the subscription. The recurring where you get, so you don't gotta remember when you get down to your last three pills. Cause you don't know. If you have like six pills, that's two days in my case. I don't know how many you take, but, I mean, I know how many you take, but I don't know how many other people take. You get six pills in there. You don't know how many pills in there. You get one pill, okay, I know there's only one. By that time, too late. Even six pills, technically. It's almost too late, pretty much. You go subscription, don't worry about that stuff. Boom, get the subscription. Um, also, like we said, Geez, Rascard's compression gear joggers.

• 2:35:36Speaker 01

  Most comfortable ones in the world. In my experience, I don't know, maybe there's a more comfortable one, maybe not. If there is, I have never seen it.

• 2:35:44Jocko Willink?

  Do the joggers have a soul?

• 2:35:46Speaker 01

  Probably, I like it.

• 2:35:48Jocko Willink?

  They touched your soul. That's the important thing.

• 2:35:51Speaker 01

  They comforted it, for sure.

• 2:35:52Jocko Willink?

  They comforted your soul.

• 2:35:53Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, hundred percent. OriginMaine.com, good way to support. Also, in Maine, the Jiu-Jitsu Immersion Camp. Immerse yourself in Jiu-Jitsu for half a week, right? Half a week and a half a week, there's like two sessions? Can you do both sessions?

• 2:36:10Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you can.

• 2:36:11Speaker 01

  I mean, is that like a thing? Of course you can do that.

• 2:36:13Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:36:13Speaker 01

  So there's an option for that. Boom, one week immersion into Jiu-Jitsu. Just learning, you know, it's not like boot camp where like, you know, you're gonna be forced to do a bunch of calisthenics, which we don't advocate apparently anymore.

• 2:36:27Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, we still, we still advocate calisthenics.

• 2:36:30Speaker 01

  I advocate calisthenics, especially like a burpee situation, which I think is...

• 2:36:33Jocko Willink?

  I advocate all kinds of calisthenics, all calisthenics, actually. You can't show me a calisthenic that I don't advocate. Even though people like, are like, sit-ups are no good, they work your psoas muscles, they don't even work... No, I advocate them too.

• 2:36:44Speaker 01

  I like strong psoas muscles, by the way.

• 2:36:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, good. Yeah, they just tell me, they were like, well, that doesn't even work your abs, it works your psoas muscles. I was like, cool, I have strong psoas muscles, next question.

• 2:36:52Speaker 01

  First off, yes, they do work your abs, trade, trade. Don't do sit-ups for one year. Do all your other stuff. And then do, uh, five sets of burnout sit-ups. And then see if your abs are sore the next day. Don't say that, it doesn't...

• 2:37:04Jocko Willink?

  What's burnout sit-ups?

• 2:37:04Speaker 01

  Burnout means to failure.

• 2:37:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:37:06Speaker 01

  That's a burnout thing.

• 2:37:06Jocko Willink?

  Can you even do sit-out sit-ups to failure?

• 2:37:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it's hard and it's gonna burn.

• 2:37:11Jocko Willink?

  How much time you gotta have?

• 2:37:12Speaker 01

  You have the whole day. Here's the thing. The point isn't how many sit-ups you can do or don't, can't do. The point is people saying, sit-ups don't do your abs muscles. Hip flexor and so... They do that too, but they do your abs muscles. Nonetheless, I agree with you. Do you do jumping jacks?

• 2:37:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:31Speaker 01

  I do jumping jacks too. Actually, I did jumping jacks last week. It was part of a MetCon, but still.

• 2:37:35Jocko Willink?

  There was an old, old teen guy workout. Burkinab Goo. Jumping jacks, pull-ups. I'm sorry, jumping jacks, push-ups. You just do jumping jacks and push-ups. And you think it's no big deal and then like, you're 45 minutes into it and you're like, I hate jumping jacks and push-ups.

• 2:37:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if I'd ever do something continuously for 45 minutes.

• 2:37:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, that would be like the first half of that workout. Stupid.

• 2:37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that one would get, especially after.

• 2:38:00Jocko Willink?

  Hey, anything, you can do any exercise and you can make it suck after forty five minutes.

• 2:38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:05Jocko Willink?

  Like there's, I can't even think of an exercise that doesn't suck after forty five minutes. You know, you used to do in BUDs, neck rotations. You used to do that in the teams, too.

• 2:38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:12Jocko Willink?

  You're just laying down, you're like, okay, I'm just gonna lay down and move my head around.

• 2:38:15Speaker 01

  Oh, laying down, yeah, I never.

• 2:38:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you lay down, neck rotations, one, two, three, one. Yeah, do that for forty five minutes.

• 2:38:22Jocko Willink?

  You're like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever done in my life, but I'm glad we're doing it.

• 2:38:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think you're right about that.

• 2:38:27Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 2:38:28Speaker 01

  The, well, I figured the key would be, if you don't like the whole forty five minutes thing, is you do something that's hard enough of a movement that you don't have to do for forty five minutes.

• 2:38:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's good, if you don't want to just do something that sucks for forty five minutes.

• 2:38:41Speaker 01

  I did a Metcon, like, just kind of representative of what you were talking about earlier, where it was, um, it was like, how many of this, these two movements you can do within a certain amount of time?

• 2:38:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:52Speaker 01

  So it's, which was different. Usually I set my rest time to a certain time, and I do them, and boom. And, yeah, that's a good, good little change up. Yeah, do that. Or you can do the jumping jacks and pull-ups for forty five minutes.

• 2:39:04Jocko Willink?

  No, jumping jacks, push-ups. This would be a time when you wouldn't even have pull-up bars, so we're like, on a the back of the ship or something.

• 2:39:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay, jumping jacks, push-ups.

• 2:39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:12Jocko Willink?

  Everyone just goes, oh, god.

• 2:39:15Speaker 01

  Boring, boring workout. Nonetheless, back to origin, jiu-jitsu camp. You won't be doing jumping jacks, push-ups. Hundred percent. Unless you want to, then you can, you know, uh, but it's more learning jiu-jitsu, practicing jiu-jitsu.

• 2:39:30Speaker 01

  No pressure, unless you put some pressure on yourself, which I recommend.

• 2:39:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, do that.

• 2:39:34Speaker 01

  By the way, enroll with everybody, you know, do some, what's the word? What's the rolling?

• 2:39:38Jocko Willink?

  Randori.

• 2:39:39Speaker 01

  Randori.

• 2:39:39Jocko Willink?

  We'll be doing some Randori, and some Nawaza.

• 2:39:41Speaker 01

  And some kata. A lot of kata, by the way.

• 2:39:44Jocko Willink?

  Kata, too.

• 2:39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, good, a lot of good instructors there.

• 2:39:47Jocko Willink?

  You'll be there.

• 2:39:48Speaker 01

  I will be there.

• 2:39:49Jocko Willink?

  Dave Burke is gonna be there.

• 2:39:50Speaker 01

  Dave Burke's gonna be in the house, big time.

• 2:39:52Jocko Willink?

  He's got the bug.

• 2:39:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:39:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, get some. I haven't, I haven't talked to JP and/or Leif. See if they're gonna roll up and roll.

• 2:40:00Speaker 01

  Oh, about the camp, yeah.

• 2:40:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:01Speaker 01

  Makes sense. But yeah, nonetheless, it is August twenty-sixth through September second

• 2:40:09Speaker 01

  of this year. Also, speaking of boring workouts, Jaco workouts. Doing forty-five minutes of jumping jacks and pushups, I don't think so. But if you want an interesting workout, actually, I shouldn't, I shouldn't give you, give you crap about it because I did look on your Instagram and you had like some Bulgarian bag on there. So you gotta, you vary your workout. Your workout gets interesting. Yeah, okay, I dig it, credit. So if you want to make your workout interesting, get some new movements, new equipment in there, go to onnit.com/jaco/jaco.

• 2:40:43Speaker 01

  Go in there, get you some good kettlebells. Even though kettlebells, I guess, ultimately could be viewed as boring.

• 2:40:50Jocko Willink?

  You can make them boring.

• 2:40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's kind of the point.

• 2:40:52Jocko Willink?

  If you're boring.

• 2:40:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what? Ultimately, that's really what it is. Because even me doing the same metcon that I do all the time, all I did was switch up like one teeny tiny thing. So it was more about me than the workout.

• 2:41:06Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:41:07Speaker 01

  Or it was a workout about the equipment, less about the equipment, more about me. Nonetheless, if you want to make it about the equipment, Onnit has the equipment. Maces, steel bells, see, I haven't even done that. That's like some advanced creativity stuff. You know, battle ropes, all this stuff that'll get you functional strength and actual strength. Just joking.

• 2:41:29Jocko Willink?

  Bonus.

• 2:41:30Speaker 01

  You know, anyway, onnit.com/jaco, good spot. Lot of good info on there as well. Also, when you get this book called Mind Over Muscle.

• 2:41:43Speaker 01

  I'm gonna list it, can you get it on Amazon?

• 2:41:45Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:41:45Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm gonna list it on the website.

• 2:41:46Jocko Willink?

  No, this was handed down to me through the ancient tradition of, no.

• 2:41:50Speaker 01

  Bro, whatever, you had a book before that wasn't available and it looked kinda like that. Yeah, one of these old school, old style books. Nonetheless, not this one. When you get it, don't worry, go to jacopodcast.com, I'll put it in the book section with all the books. Boom, click through there, good way to support, and you get the book, boom. Also, if you're doing other shopping, go ahead, continue doing that. Get the leaf blower, it's about to be, actually, it's gonna be summer before fall, huh?

• 2:42:16Jocko Willink?

  So maybe get a weed whacker.

• 2:42:18Speaker 01

  Weed whacker, some sunscreen, some surf shorts.

• 2:42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:24Speaker 01

  Get, get all that stuff. Good way to support and support yourself. Also,

• 2:42:30Speaker 01

  subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. iTunes Teacher, Google Play, whatever your preferred podcast listening device slash application is, subscribe. Good way to support. Also, if you want to leave a review, don't hesitate on that one. Do what Kano says. Make a decision about leaving a review. Make a decision and just go. Don't hesitate on the review. Just do it, leave it. Like everything in life, you know? Reviews no different. Also on YouTube, subscribe to our YouTube channel if you want. If you care even a little bit about the video version of this podcast and what Jocko looks like. And I, I don't care if you care about what I look like, but again, and I still get this, by the way.

• 2:43:13Speaker 01

  I guess apparently I don't look how I sound.

• 2:43:18Speaker 01

  Is there like, can you match up a voice to a face? You kinda can, huh?

• 2:43:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you can.

• 2:43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you.

• 2:43:24Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 2:43:25Speaker 01

  But it's not like a one to one. It's kinda like a, like you hear the voice and then there's this ambiguous kinda group of faces that might go with it. You know, it's one of those deals. It's not just one face comes to mind and that's kinda, it's not that. But it's like, I guess my face falls way outside of the group of faces that practically, I mean, not practically, but that, that seemingly probably match my voice.

• 2:43:48Jocko Willink?

  I guess that's, that's what I hear too.

• 2:43:50Speaker 01

  Apparently I still hear it. So if you care, subscribe to the YouTube channel. I guess technically you wouldn't have to subscribe to, you just look at it. But if you want to support at the same time, if you want, subscribe to the podcast on YouTube. Also we have excerpts on there, so that's another reason, by the way. You know, you want to share these shorter excerpts with people and watch them. Boom. YouTube is the place to do it. Also some enhanced excerpts. That's what I'm calling them today. Enhance, put some music on there, make you feel good about it. Here's the thing, you advocate discipline, like the way you feel doesn't matter. I would say this, it matters less than discipline. It still does matter.

• 2:44:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:28Speaker 01

  When you're fired up to go do a workout.

• 2:44:31Speaker 01

  Whatever, bro. When you're fired up to go do a workout versus the day when you really don't want to do a workout.

• 2:44:36Jocko Willink?

  Why is it then all the time people like, "Oh, I didn't want to work out today, but I did it anyways and I set a PR in my whatever."

• 2:44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:41Jocko Willink?

  Why does that happen?

• 2:44:42Speaker 01

  That happens sometimes, for sure. No, no, no, no.

• 2:44:44Jocko Willink?

  Lock it up.

• 2:44:45Speaker 01

  No, I wasn't done with my, I wasn't done with my theory. If you feel like working out and you're fired up to go work out, that's gonna be a good workout, chances are. Not all the time, I get it. If you really don't feel like working out, you're dragging ass. Dragging. You got 5.5 hours of sleep and you're not Jocko, by the way. And you're, you ate some Snickers or something like this and you're like, "Dang, I still gotta work out." You really don't feel like it and you have a bunch of other stuff to do. And you go work out.

• 2:45:18Jocko Willink?

  Did I ever say about Snickerdoodle?

• 2:45:20Speaker 01

  No. What is, I mean, I know what us, Snickerdoodle is.

• 2:45:23Jocko Willink?

  This guy in the teams whose name happened to be Nick. And we were like new guys and we went on a compass course. The only food that he brought out in the field was, was Snickers. Like, you know, like the 12 pack of Snickers?

• 2:45:36Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. I assume, yeah.

• 2:45:38Jocko Willink?

  He brought, he bought like three 12 packs of Snickers and that's all he brought for five days.

• 2:45:42Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 2:45:43Jocko Willink?

  It didn't go down well.

• 2:45:44Speaker 01

  No, I wouldn't think so.

• 2:45:45Jocko Willink?

  He got a mega diarrhea case.

• 2:45:49Speaker 01

  So the whole marketing.

• 2:45:51Jocko Willink?

  So his nickname was Snickerdoodle after that. His name was Nick, yeah. Snickerdoodle. Pretty funny.

• 2:45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:57Jocko Willink?

  He was pretty bummed out actually after that one.

• 2:46:00Speaker 01

  It's good. We had a guy named Snickers on our football team at UH. Snickers. He was like, he was the center.

• 2:46:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that was his last name?

• 2:46:07Speaker 01

  No, that was his nickname, full on. But I, that's how, you know how certain guys have, their nickname is so strong, you don't really, you know, like you.

• 2:46:17Speaker 01

  It was like that. Nonetheless, back to the point, if you're fired up to go work out, chances are you can have a better workout. Same thing with the Jocko's message. If you're fired up to listen to it, it might sink in better. Might. You put some good music on it, boom, might sink in better. It might. I don't know. That's why it's enhanced, you know, special messages. Nonetheless, the point there is subscribe to YouTube channel if you want. Good way to support. Also, Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko Store. jockostore.com. Patches are in. Guys been heating me up.

• 2:46:49Jocko Willink?

  I haven't seen beanies on there.

• 2:46:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it's a process. Well, here's the thing. I gotta prove them.

• 2:46:53Jocko Willink?

  Right in time for July. So we got that going for us.

• 2:46:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I'm just.

• 2:46:58Jocko Willink?

  Good job.

• 2:46:59Speaker 01

  Hey, man, you know, better late than ever, I guess, with those. In the meantime.

• 2:47:03Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't apply when it's summertime and you get a beanie in the mail. Does not apply.

• 2:47:06Speaker 01

  Well, maybe I'll get the thin one so you do it for.

• 2:47:09Jocko Willink?

  There ain't no, there's nothing better about it.

• 2:47:12Speaker 01

  It's true. No doubt about it. Hey, look, you're right. And we're still gonna work hard on the beanies and get them, get them out. Quality. Can't rush. Great greatness, quality.

• 2:47:24Jocko Willink?

  Dude.

• 2:47:25Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying.

• 2:47:25Jocko Willink?

  Nine months for a beanie. That's not about rushing. Could have come through with all kinds of quality, like mega quality. Those things could have been knitted from cashmere.

• 2:47:37Speaker 01

  Could have grown the cotton. Get Peta on the phone right now. Alright, well, I'm gonna continue to work. And you know, when they're out, they're gonna be out. They're gonna be fantastic.

• 2:47:46Jocko Willink?

  They better be.

• 2:47:46Speaker 01

  Alright, there you go.

• 2:47:47Jocko Willink?

  They better be amazing.

• 2:47:48Speaker 01

  In the meantime.

• 2:47:49Jocko Willink?

  Maybe it takes a lot to get a soul into a beanie.

• 2:47:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it could be. It could be. In the meantime, there's some cool shirts on there. I think they're cool. Dismal equals freedom. Get after it. That's a good one. Simple, to the point.

• 2:48:01Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book.

• 2:48:02Speaker 01

  Back to the book, that's a new one. I can put out another new.

• 2:48:05Jocko Willink?

  All book titles.

• 2:48:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, all of them on the back. Well, all the book titles up until the point. Yeah, so.

• 2:48:11Jocko Willink?

  What, up until what podcast?

• 2:48:13Speaker 01

  I forget.

• 2:48:13Jocko Willink?

  You should figure that out. That's like a layer.

• 2:48:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:16Jocko Willink?

  Should be the first hundred, but you probably didn't do that.

• 2:48:18Speaker 01

  I think it was a hundred. No, no, no, it was like hundred something.

• 2:48:21Jocko Willink?

  Layer's been missed. That's fine. Cause then we could have put it on another back of the book at two hundred.

• 2:48:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, like the updated version.

• 2:48:27Jocko Willink?

  Missed the layer.

• 2:48:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe not. Or maybe I'll add a layer, cause layers are addable. Addable?

• 2:48:35Jocko Willink?

  Maybe.

• 2:48:35Speaker 01

  You can add layers. You see what I'm saying? Um, anyway, some shirts on there, some rash guards on there, some patches there, like I said, some women's stuff on there, hoodies, also decals. You know what a decal is?

• 2:48:48Jocko Willink?

  Jesse's decals.

• 2:48:49Speaker 01

  Jesse's decals. Here's the thing with decals. Where they're they're essentially a sticker, right? And we all know what decals I understand, but he uses like this stuff like the material for this decal is like supposed to survive the apocalypse.

• 2:49:04Jocko Willink?

  No, that's good.

• 2:49:05Speaker 01

  Like that kind decals.

• 2:49:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:49:09Speaker 01

  Good way to support.

• 2:49:10Jocko Willink?

  Jesse can play around with the decals.

• 2:49:11Speaker 01

  Not at all. And this kid like he was like, we, you know, we go back and forth and he's like, yeah, I make decals. I was like, yeah, that's a good idea, whatever. And then another company called, I think it was called Echelon Front, something like this. They got some decals and I was like, dang, these decals and obviously prompted me to, okay, we need our decals. They're legit. They are legit and they're on Jocko store.com, by the way. Good way to support. If you want something, get something. Also, psychological warfare. If you don't know what that is, this is what it is. It's an album with tracks of Jocko helping you through. This is what the track is. It's it's not a music track. Jocko on there, every track, helping you get through your moment of weakness. And we have them. I have them.

• 2:49:57Speaker 01

  Jocko has them, even though he, you know, is reluctant to admit that from time to time.

• 2:50:04Speaker 01

  And what it does is, let's say you're gonna skip the workout. I think skipping workout, this is my opinion, skipping workout and cheat, not cheating on a diet. Can you cheat on a diet technically?

• 2:50:14Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, huh? It's like you're cheating.

• 2:50:16Jocko Willink?

  You weren't supposed to do this and you did it anyways.

• 2:50:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, you betrayed your yourself, you know, because you have a future self. See what I'm saying? Like yourself of right now will make like a a protocol, right? And then your future self essentially cheats on your.

• 2:50:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, I saw some meme of Homer Simpson saying like, oh, this guy's future is not looking good. He's eating like a donut or whatever.

• 2:50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly right.

• 2:50:41Jocko Willink?

  Same idea.

• 2:50:41Speaker 01

  Yep. So, yeah, technically it is. If you're cheating on your past self on the diet, don't worry about that. You start feeling that feeling come along, you got a track for that. You just listen to it and it's and it's essentially like Jocko telling you why you shouldn't slip. Why you shouldn't slip down that slippery slope in whatever activity, some good ones on there, procrastination, all that stuff. Yeah, check that one out. Good way to support. Very effective, too.

• 2:51:06Jocko Willink?

  That's on iTunes, Apple Music.

• 2:51:09Speaker 01

  No, Amazon.

• 2:51:10Jocko Willink?

  Amazon Music, Google Play, Apple iTunes, wherever you can get. MP3s, that's where you can get it. Also, you can get from Amazon, you can get Jocka White Tea. It tastes really good. It does have 15 grams of caffeine, so that's a little microdose. That's why I put 15 grams of caffeine inside the discipline, because that was the dose that I like. It has, but, but it's only 15 milligrams, so you don't get jittery. It also has a high level of antioxidants. That's what the pomegranate does. That's why it's pomegranate white tea. And of course, in addition to those things, it is the only white tea that comes the guaranteed 8,000 pound deadlift.

• 2:51:53Jocko Willink?

  So that's good. You got that going for you. Even Jordan Peterson now, you know, I got a text from him and he's up to 8,000. So, because he was plateaued at 7,000 pounds, as he admitted on, uh, he doesn't like to admit his weaknesses either, but there it was.

• 2:52:06Speaker 01

  It's hard.

• 2:52:07Jocko Willink?

  7,000 pounds, you know, pretty, pretty sad. Brooks. But now he's at 8,000, so good for him.

• 2:52:14Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 2:52:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, all it took was a little Jocka White Tea. Also, we got some books. I got some books. I got a, I got a book called Way of the Warrior Kid. The principles of being a warrior and really of being a good human being, and they're in there and they are simple and they're clear enough for a six-year-old, a seven-year-old, an eight-year-old, an 80-year-old to understand them. And it gets better because the story continues in the book Way of the Warrior Kid 2, Mark's Mission. And this book starts to hit on some other principles in life. Keeping your emotions under control, working hard, being frugal, saving money, and also dealing with Nathan James.

• 2:52:56Jocko Willink?

  Nathan James, new bully, psychological bully, little bit different. Mark wants to fight him. Mark figures, hey, I've been training jiu-jitsu, I'm gonna fight this guy. But instead, Uncle G, Uncle Jake says, no, you can fight him. First, you have to gather intelligence on him. You have to figure out what's going on with.

• 2:53:17Jocko Willink?

  Nathan James, understand why he's your enemy and see if there's another way to solve this problem besides fighting. Turns out to be very good. Also, Mark has a jujitsu tournament coming up. And guess what? He doesn't want to compete in it. He doesn't want to do his first jujitsu tournament. Why? Because he's afraid. He's afraid of losing. He's afraid of failing. Fear of failure. That's bad. So he's got all these problems. How does he overcome them? Well, luckily, Uncle Jake's in the house. Uncle Jake is out for the summertime. Gives him a hand. Order, that book is going to be available April 24. Same thing with all the other books. Well, the last two books that have come out. It's gonna sell out. The publisher doesn't understand

• 2:54:01Jocko Willink?

  how many books to make. They want to hedge their bets. So they're just gonna make a certain amount. So the more people order now, first of all, you'll get it when it comes out. And second of all, they'll know that they need to make more. And order it from wherever. Order it from Amazon. Order it from Barnes Noble. But go into your local bookstore. This is a mission. Go to your local bookstore and tell them you want the book. Mark's mission. Way the Warrior Kid 2. Tell them you want that. That will help spread the word.

• 2:54:34Jocko Willink?

  And also while you're helping out Warrior Kids, check out IrishOaksRanch.com where you can get soap made by young Aiden. He's only 12 years old. He's got his own business. And the soap isn't just any soap. It's good soap. And he actually called it Jocko Soap. And the Jocko Soap motto that I made up. Aiden gets no credit for this. The motto is stay clean. And someone said there's a layer in that. Steak. Lean. Steak. Lean. Stay clean. So, layers. No big deal. Yeah. Also, don't forget about the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

• 2:55:17Jocko Willink?

  This is the manual for getting after it. Thoughts and actions that will keep you off the slippery slope. And to keep you on the path. The path of discipline and thereby, as the title says, the path of freedom. If you want the audio version of that, it's not on Audible. It's an album with tracks. Discipline equals Freedom. Field manual on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play. That's where you can get it. Also, Extreme Ownership. Combat Leadership Broken Down Into Pragmatic Strategies and Tactics That You Can Apply To Your Business And Life. Boom. Still on the Amazon Bestseller List. Still on Wall Street Journal. Keeping it real.

• 2:56:00Jocko Willink?

  And if you want, or you need to take it to the next level. Echelon Front is my leadership and management consulting company. The overwhelming factor in the success of any business or team is leadership. That's what it is. And at Echelon Front, we come to your company and train and align your leadership so that you work effectively together as a team to dominate your battlefield. It's me. It's my brother Leif Babin, JP Denell, Dave Burke. You can email [email protected] or visit the website echelonfront.com. And of course, the muster is our leadership seminar. We're only doing two this year.

• 2:56:44Jocko Willink?

  Washington DC, May 17th and 18th, and San Francisco, October 17th, 18th. The DC muster is two thirds sold out right now. It's two thirds sold out and it's going to sell out soon. The SF muster is in October and it's already a third sold out. So both of them are absolutely going to sell out. We can't expand the spaces anymore. We've packed as many chairs as there in there as we can and desks. So you, we can't fit any more people. So if you want to come, get registered now at extremeownership.com. The entire Echelon Front team will be there, all of us, including Echo Charles. And by the way, there's no green room. We won't be backstage getting our, um, getting our, our scalps massaged.

• 2:57:30Jocko Willink?

  No, we will be out front. We'll be kicking it with you, interacting, answering questions, talking, eating, working out, hanging out, just basically getting after it with you. So come and get it at the muster, at the muster. Get registered as quick as you can. And until we do the muster, if you have questions or comments or answers, or you just want to cruise with us, kind of hard, then you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on D-F-I-S-H-B-O-K-E. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And thanks to you all for listening to the podcast, especially those of you in uniform,

• 2:58:13Jocko Willink?

  who took an oath to protect this country and you stand by that oath, literally around the world, on the front lines and to the police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and all the first responders that are always on call to help us when the chips are down and that are ready to make that sacrifice like so many did on September 11th. Thank you for what you do and let's remember and give thanks to the people every day like Jeremy Glick, who stood up along with the other members of Flight 93.

• 2:58:56Jocko Willink?

  They stood up and fought when the time called for it.

• 2:59:02Jocko Willink?

  And let us all be prepared to do the same, to stand up and fight if we need to, to be prepared to face evil by staying on the path, by knowing what your principles are and sticking to them.

• 2:59:18Jocko Willink?

  Be vigilant. Pay attention. Pay attention to the little things, the little decisions, the decisions that pull you off the path and onto that slippery slope with bad habits that will let you down at the moment of truth.

• 2:59:40Jocko Willink?

  Watch out for those little decisions. Instead, stay on the path, the path of discipline, the path that leads to security and strength, and of course, to freedom.

• 2:59:55Jocko Willink?

  And that's the path of getting after it.

• 3:00:00Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.