Richard Osman: The Untold Story Of A TV Legend's Addiction

Richard Osman is a television host, former creative director of a world-leading production company, and the author behind the biggest literary sensation since Harry Potter., the Thursday Murder Club series. In this one-of-a-kind conversation, Richard reveals for the first time what has motored him from a working class, single parent household to the top of the television and literary worlds. There’s more to Richard than meets the eye. He’s had to battle through self-doubt, addiction, imposter syndrome to have one of the most remarkable, multi-faceted and varied careers we’ve ever featured. We’ll let Richard take it from here. Follow Richard: Twitter - https://bit.ly/3eG2bcD Instagram - https://bit.ly/3TBB5C0 Richards book: https://amzn.to/3EUM4lR Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  My books wouldn't be as good if I hadn't gone through that trauma.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  Welcome Richard Hoffman, ladies and gentlemen. Best selling novelist, television producer, presenter.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  You know, if you have a trauma of any type and you are looked after and you're guided through it, you can come out the other side. If however, you're sort of left alone in your trauma, your own solutions never work. I never sat and thought, oh, I've got a problem with my life. But I would have addictive behaviours around food.

• 0:27Steven Bartlett?

  When did you realise that it was a strange behaviour?

• 0:30Speaker 00

  I mean, it's an addiction. There's no other way of putting it. It's like having a bottle of vodka, then having another bottle of vodka, then having another bottle of vodka. If you see somebody is different, they do not need to be told. I've had that with my height, you know, and I know you're just thinking, yeah, but it's just me. You think, yeah, but it's just you and five other people every single day. I didn't live the life I should have done for many years. I wish I'd been more myself in those years and I would have taken much less success and much more happiness.

• 0:57Steven Bartlett?

  What is happiness?

• 0:58Speaker 00

  Gosh, that's a good question. Well, here's the way I always think about it.

• 1:02Steven Bartlett?

  That makes a lot of sense.

• 1:03Speaker 00

  Hmm, you think?

• 1:06Steven Bartlett?

  Without further ado, I'm Stephen Butler and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:22Steven Bartlett?

  Richard.

• 1:23Speaker 00

  Stephen.

• 1:25Steven Bartlett?

  What do I need to know about you and your earliest years to understand the man you went on to be and all the things you went on to do?

• 1:32Speaker 00

  It's a good question. Well, if you mean professionally the man I went on to be, I grew up loving popular culture, loving mainstream culture, loving mainstream television. So, you know, that's always been in my soul. I came from a big working class family and now find myself in a very middle class world. So I sort of have a sense of what different people from different places in Britain like to watch or like to read. So that really, and you know, I grew up.

• 2:01Speaker 00

  Visually, I'm very visually impaired, so I don't see the world particularly brilliantly. But I'm always listening to the world. I'm always interested in what people are saying and, you know, getting that sort of thing. So I think that combination of things means I've had a career of sort of working out what people might quite like and then finding the right people to help me make those things.

• 2:19Steven Bartlett?

  Your earliest years kind of reminded me of mine in many ways because I almost view my earliest years as two chapters. There was, for me, there was the first chapter, which was really pleasant. I remember it being a very happy home. And then there was the second chapter, which I could describe basically as dysfunctional.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:35Steven Bartlett?

  And a bit of a nightmare.

• 2:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's similarity. So I was nine, my father left when I was nine. And this being the 1970s, we didn't really see him again. It wasn't sort of, it wasn't touchy feely. Oh, everyone still loves each other. It was, you know, off he went. And so, yeah, I was probably the same, quite happy-go-lucky up to that age. And then afterwards, you sort of have to, you know, build a mask for yourself a little bit and, you know, pretend you're okay and pretend you're not in pain. Weirdly, that ability to sort of create your own narrative was helpful in my later career. You know, I'd rather not have had it, but that ability to sort of pretend that everything's okay and to write a different story,

• 3:15Speaker 00

  which is very much what I did. But, um, yeah, I think that anyone who's had that sort of disconnect, it affects them one way or another. And it was very, you know, it's an unhappy time and it's led to lots of unhappiness since then, but it doesn't make me unhappy anymore, for sure. I've absolutely come to terms with it, come to peace with it. And, you know, I always say trauma is not the problem. It's inability to deal with trauma is the problem. You know, if you have a trauma of any type and you are looked after and you're guided through it, you can probably come out the other side. If however, you're sort of left alone in your trauma and you come up with your own solutions, your own solutions never work. So I definitely had that, but um.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  I try and use, you know, I'm very connected still to the nine year old weirdly because I've had that sort of interregnum where I was a slightly different person. So I'm always able to, I'm always able to find that nine year old. And that nine year old was very interested in new things and what's on telly and, you know, who's playing football this afternoon? And, you know, what's in the pop charts? And, you know, that's the stuff that I loved when I was nine. And it's the stuff that I still love now. I'm always, always what's next, what's next, what's next?

• 4:24Steven Bartlett?

  You talked, I think it was a Sunday Times interview you did where you said at that age, you had to manufacture yourself a little bit. And I found that really interesting because I've heard this a few times from a few different people I've sat here with that have undergone a sort of a tectonic shift in their early years.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:39Steven Bartlett?

  What do you mean by manufacture yourself a little bit?

• 4:42Speaker 00

  Well, I think when you get into your teenage years, you are working out who you are. And, you know, we could, we, we, all of us change. And we change in, you know, in reaction to the world around us and the new things that we experience and new friends and new schools, you know, we become different people. But I think if at the heart of it there is a lie, so my lie would be, everything is okay. I don't need my dad to be around. It's okay that I hear my mum crying at night. You know, if that's my lie, then everything I build is built on a fault line. You know, so everything is built on that fault line. So however big I build the, you know, my personality, there's going to come a point, and it happened to me probably late twenties, when there's an earthquake because that fault line gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. So it's just that you, we all build

• 5:25Speaker 00

  our personalities. And if you build them on truth, if you build them on firm foundations, if you build them on good faith, then, you know, you have a chance. If you build them on fault lines, then it always comes out.

• 5:36Steven Bartlett?

  That makes a lot of sense.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Hmm, you think?

• 5:38Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, because that's, that's completely consistent with when I've sat here with people who've spent decades of their life or decades of their career even, building themselves up on a lie, but or as you've referred to as wearing a mask, the, the earthquake always comes.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  Well, here's, here's the way I always think about it. Listen, people will tell you there's no such thing as truth. And of course, that, that's true. I get it. There's no such thing as actual reality. But I think our personalities, we sort of have a true north, right? Which if nothing goes wrong, or if we respond to trauma well, we carry on our life and the true north goes up through us. And we sort of dance around it and we can sort of wander in and out the fields around this sort of true north. If you deviate from true north, especially very young, then suddenly true north is here and you're heading off in this direction, right? And for quite a while, you're not very far from your true north. But if you're like fifteen, twenty years in, you're so far away from what you should be. Right now, you don't know that you're telling a lie. Okay, that's the absolute key. You don't know that you're lying to yourself.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  Right, so what you're seeing is the reality of the world seems alien to you and you can't work out why. You think, why don't I fit in? Why am I not sort of doing the right things? And it's because you're so far away from where you need to be. And lots of people will fill that gap with addictions and drugs and booze and weird behaviours. But eventually, I think most people work out the reason the world doesn't seem right is I'm not right. You know, and some people narcissists will try and drag the world to them. Look at Trump, he tries to drag the world to him all the time, okay, because of his childhood and which we get, right? But most people at some point just go, no, I need, I've got to make that leap.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  I've got to leap back to where I was, which is a long journey, but a worthwhile one. But I think it's just, we just keep going just slightly off course, slightly off course. And the longer that goes on for, the further we are from where we should be.

• 7:32Steven Bartlett?

  If you were to have stayed on your true north throughout that whole period, what would you have done instead?

• 7:38Speaker 00

  Oh, well, it's a very good question. I sort of think that I would have done roughly the same thing. I think I would have ended up in TV or journalism or writing one way or another. I think that, and especially think this with the books. I think that it has given me an empathy for people and for pain. And so, you know, I see pain in other people all the time and I see denial in other people all the time. And I think those things go through the books. So I think my books wouldn't be as good if I hadn't gone through that trauma. You know, and again, I'd trade the two off in a heartbeat. So I think I would have done the same thing, but I don't think it would have had the same soul, is the truth. And therefore, I don't think it would have had quite the same impact or success.

• 8:22Steven Bartlett?

  You say you'd trade the two off in a heartbeat?

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, what happiness for, because I mean, listen, you've been enormously successful, right? But the question is why? Okay, what are you after? Right? Are you after money? Okay, you're after money, but why? What is it that money is doing for you? It can buy you certain things. Okay, why do you want those things? What are they doing for you? And the answer is always one thing, which is happiness, contentment, right? Just comfort in and of yourself. That's all you want is to wake up in the morning and be comfortable with who you are, to have enough and to be comfortable with who you are. And I think that, you know, that's the thing. Happiness is the only thing we seek. And if I'd grown up happier, I think I would have found happiness easier to find. And, you know, my happiness has been hard won. And I'm happy, you know, now it's great because I'm fifty

• 9:09Speaker 00

  one and I'm in this lovely place. But then, you know, there's sort of ten fifteen years where you think, oh, you know what? I wish I'd I wish I'd been more myself in those years. And I would have taken much less success and much more happiness.

• 9:22Steven Bartlett?

  It's funny, I asked that question because I remember Mo Gaudat sitting here and talking to me about the razor test they did on people where they asked people if you could remove the most traumatic events of your life, would you do it? And he says that ninety five percent of people says they would say they wouldn't.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's interesting that because I don't think people, I don't think it's a real question. Because what you're really saying to people is would you erase who you are? And would you erase? And, you know, of course you wouldn't. Of course you would not erase who you are because it's very dear to you. However, if you were able to live that other reality and live this reality and see which one of these do you prefer, I think you'd say the one without the trauma, is my opinion. None of us would ever say, yes, I want to erase who I was. Okay, I mean, it's crazy. But actually, the truth is, if we had the two side by side, like a, you know, a Costa and a Starbucks, and say, which would you prefer? We would pick the, we'd pick the, I don't know which is the best one.

• 10:14Steven Bartlett?

  I don't know. Yeah, I think, I don't know. I don't want to endorse.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  Exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't know. I don't know. It's a Costa or Starbucks. They're both, they're both fine companies.

• 10:23Steven Bartlett?

  I imagine there's a lot of people listening to this now that have had a traumatic event happen to them, or of course are going to have traumatic events in their future. What I'm really interested in is knowing the impact that your decision to no longer see your dad and however else you behaved at that time had on you later. How in hindsight, do you think it would have been better to act?

• 10:43Speaker 00

  Better for me to act, I don't, I don't think it's a question for me because I'm 10, 10, 11 years old, right? And I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm, I'm not the sort of significant actor in that situation. You know, you, you're not able to rationalize the world correctly. You know, it's for the people around you. And this, this no disrespect, by the way, to the people around me because we were very, very different times. And my mum had just been through the most extraordinary trauma. I mean, much more than I had been through. And so she was not in a position to act in my best interest then. And my dad wasn't in a best position to, to work in my interest. And nobody was, no one knew, you know, there's lots of talk about mental health now and isn't it, you know, but no one talked about that stuff back then. I mean, they really, really didn't talk about that stuff back then, you know, it just didn't exist, you know, you, you, it was

• 11:27Speaker 00

  the sort of hangover from the kind of post-war years where you just didn't complain, you know, and that, that's still the mindset we had. So listen, if, if it had happened more recently, yeah, it would have been much simpler. And listen, I'd have found a different trauma, you know, it's personality type, seek out trauma is the truth. And I would have found a different trauma to explain away my differences. But I think that, um, yeah, I, I think that had it happened 30 years later, conversations would have been had, people would have sat in rooms and we'd have worked out what the best thing to do was. But it's, the, the world was such a different place in sort of 1979. It sort of feels very, very recent to me. But, you know, the, the world, the world was an entirely different place.

• 12:06Steven Bartlett?

  And we didn't even have to have those conversations in 1992 when I was born.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's right.

• 12:10Steven Bartlett?

  They started showing up about 10 years ago, I think, conversations around mental health and mental wellbeing. Before then, even the prospect of being Mentally ill, I had this like horrible stigma that associated with like stray jackets and asylums, not, we didn't think of the fact that we all have mental health.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  I think, I think that's exactly right. And listen, there's an awful lot wrong with our, this new social media age. But one of the good things is if you are different, then you are supported and you have friendships around you. And listen, you're also attacked. That's the problem with social media age, because you know, suddenly you're seen as a group. But you are supported and you can find like minded people, you can find people in the same position. No one at my school was from divorced parents, you know, it just didn't, you know, when I went to comprehensive schools, a few more, but not really. And now, of course, you know, you can be on, you know, you can be online and you can meet a thousand people in your situation in one evening, you know, and that I think it would, would be rather helpful.

• 13:00Steven Bartlett?

  You've talked about how you've come to peace with that resentment that you had with your father.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 13:06Steven Bartlett?

  How?

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Oh, easily, because he's a human being. And I got it. And I got to the age that he was when he left, saw the situation that he had found himself in. And I thought, yeah, I get it. I see why you would do that. You know, I did the same. I, you know, I left the mother of my children, hopefully in a very different way. But, you know, I absolutely get it. He found himself in a situation he couldn't get out of. So ran away. And, you know, I met him in later life and he's an all right guy. He knows a perfectly decent man, but he didn't have the language. And he didn't have the brain space for, for that sort of conflict. He just didn't have it. He just was in a situation he didn't want to be in and ran away, which is, which is very common. And again, people, you know, do it less now because, you know, you can, you can talk to people and men didn't talk

• 13:52Speaker 00

  to other men then, you know, he found himself at a place in life where he just thought, I'm not who I need to be, you know, I'm unhappy. And so he found an excuse and left. And so I've always, you know, I have no resentment towards him anymore. I get it. I sort of wish that I loved him and I wish that there was, that I felt that love and I wish that I had that big sort of family thing. But gosh, there's worse problems in the world. But, but of course, I understand why he did it. You know, this is the age old story. People have been doing it for generations and they'll keep doing it.

• 14:21Steven Bartlett?

  Empathy was your.

• 14:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think so. And it's an empathy for one's enemies. I don't wish to call them an enemy, but you know what I mean. For someone who's an antagonist in your life rather than a protagonist. People talk a lot about empathy, and I think they don't have empathy for their opponents or for people who disagree with them, or for people who've lived a different experience. And you think that's empathy. Empathy is not just saying, I feel sorry for people, or can we help people? You know, that of course is empathy and it's kindness. But empathy is also, why does half the country disagree with me? You know, why does half the country live their life in a different way? Why do they not care about what I care about? That's actual empathy, and that's in shorter supply, I would say. But yeah, learning to forgive someone who's caused you trauma. And not just forgive, but understand.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  The French say to understand all is to forgive all, which I sort of, I sort of get. You know, if you're inside someone's head, you go, okay, I see it. I see why he did it. So listen, I'd rather he hadn't done it, but I understand entirely why he did. And yeah, that's, I guess, a very good example of empathy. The sort of empathy you wish you didn't have to have, but you know, it's very useful.

• 15:27Steven Bartlett?

  You needed more information on his contacts to get that empathy? Or was it, because you used the word learning to forgive.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:34Steven Bartlett?

  Which I think is an apt word because it's not easy to do that. It's not just a decision we can, well, it is, I guess, to some part, but it's a very difficult decision to make to really.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, look, in my situation, I hadn't seen him for 20 years and then I did see him. Maybe a bit less, maybe 18 years. And so, yeah, I'd had a long time to build that wall around me. I had a long, you know, I'd had conversations with him in my head a lot. And you know, the conversations you have with people who aren't there become very powerful. And you know, you'll constantly have that conversation. Again, this is what I'd say. This is what I would say. And then you meet up and you start saying a couple of those things. And you're just there with a guy who's just saying, look, I was just unhappy. And you know, I love you and you know, I wish I hadn't had to do it. You just go, it takes the sting out of all the conversations you've had over the years. Now, for me, he didn't have the conversations with me that I needed. You know, there was no, he wasn't really apologetic. He didn't really understand.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  The first thing he said to me is, I bet you wonder what I've been up to since I left. And I thought, not really. You know, I sort of think maybe what I've been up to might be of interest to you. And so he, he, he just didn't, he didn't have, he didn't have the vocabulary to reform the relationship, is the truth. And I sort of felt he hadn't needed it. But I'd said to him towards the end of his life, I did say. Have you had a happy life though? Have you had a happy life since you left? And he said, yes. I thought, do you know what? That's, that's fine for me. That'll do me. Listen, it's, I'd, I'd rather he was happy. But um, yeah, it, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a long journey to sort of go.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  Do you know what? I get why he did it. And now the stuff that I've built up around it is now my responsibility. And, and, and it's my thing to deal with, not his.

• 17:13Steven Bartlett?

  And in that interview, I think with the Sunday Times, you said you, you, you went to his funeral and you found yourself very, you found yourself upset. But not at what one would think.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I found, I went down with my brother, funnily enough, who, who had even less to do with him than I did. And I, my kids were there and it, it was so unemotional. Uh, and you know, I was very careful, you know, I thought, no, come, remember that sometimes these things hit you and this is your father and he's died. Uh, and

• 17:42Speaker 00

  I couldn't connect with him. I cried briefly at the end because I cried because of what could have been, because of the relationship I'd missed. But I wasn't crying for him. Uh, and from the next day onwards, it didn't hit me again. There was no kind of aftershock. Uh, and that's sort of the, that's really upset me that there was not, because I'm an emotional, very emotional person. I'll cry at anything. I'll cry at the repair shop. Uh, and I was sort of thinking, this, this is not, knocked me particularly. Uh, and I thought that was very sad because what, what a, what a waste of love, you know, what, what a waste of things that could have been. And my brother was the same. I could, you know, I said to my kids, did Uncle Matt cry? And they went, no, no, no, no. So, you know, it's, it's the same thing. And you know, people around him were crying and the people who he loved and who loved him. So he'd built that life, you know, without us.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  But for me, I just thought, oh, that's, there it is. You know, my grandparents' funerals, I was crying. My father's funeral, it was just, I was glad I was there, but there was, it just, you can't lie and pretend that it connects when it doesn't. You seem to be more significantly more shaped by Brenda.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  Ah, my mum, yeah, no, I'm definitely definitely shaped by her. I didn't have any other option than to be shaped by her because it was just me, her and my brother in the house. Yeah, no, I was very lucky to whatever my trauma and listen, we can overestimate these things because I was brought up in a very loving household and brought up in a very smart household. My mum became a primary school teacher after my dad left and, you know, just very wise and very protective. And, you know, so I, I really, in the sort of lottery of life's parents, I have to accept that the one I had was an awful lot better than the two that many people have. Give me a flavour of her character and personality and her, her manner.

• 19:24Speaker 00

  Well, she is, let's say she's a, she's a primary school teacher. So she's used to, you know, if you ever went into a, into a class that my mum is teaching, they'd be silent if she wanted them to be silent. But she's very, very softly spoken. And where she is now in her retirement village, which is the basis of the Thursday Murder Club books, she's surrounded by people with very strong opinions, very strong personalities. And my mum looks like she wouldn't say boo to a goose. She looks like she's very unassuming. But, you know, I know after these big meetings where they're all shouting at each other, my mum will be the one to stand up and just say, I wonder if we should do this and give the solution to the thing, you know, while everyone else's egos are sort of blowing themselves out, she sort of slips in and sort of says, I wonder if we do this. And that's not just, by the way, oh, I'm kindly and wise. It's also she wants to get her own way. And she knows, she knows that that's the way to do it.

• 20:10Speaker 00

  So, yeah, she's, she's, she's very bright, very quiet, very unassuming. And it sort of is the opposite of a tiger mother, you know, these mothers that make sure you're doing, you know, piano practice and French lessons and you're learning Mandarin and all this kind of stuff. She just, she let me watch TV. She let my brother play his guitar and sort of trusted that we'd find our way in life. And that's, I think, certainly for me and my brother, often the best way to bring up kids is to, is to let them find what they love and just let them get on with it.

• 20:38Steven Bartlett?

  That decision to just let you watch the telly.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 20:41Steven Bartlett?

  Pretty formative, I guess.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, and, and, and, you know, listen, we can always look back in hindsight and go, she was a genius. She knew that that was going to be my career. But I think that she realised when I was watching TV that I wasn't doing it passively. And which is true, when I was watching TV, I was always looking at the credits. Who does what on a TV show? What are the names of these people? And, you know, if there were jokes on a sitcom thinking, oh, that's interesting. Why, why did that make me laugh? But that, that bit doesn't make me laugh. Or formats, you know, how do, why do they always end on a round in a quiz show where you can catch up loads of points? What's that about? So I was never watching passively. I was always, I was fascinated with that. I was always interested with it. And I think that she, I, I see it with my son and computer games. He plays games all the time, but then he, he talking to me about the industry and he's talking to me about how they monetise it. And he's talking to me about, you know, different forms of games.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  And I just think, great, you could keep playing games then because that's the thing that you love. And so long as you're interested in how it's put together, then, you know, that can become a career. And I don't think my mum thought that I ever would have a career in telly because we didn't know anybody like that. But I think she just sort of trusted that something was going in and that, you know, I was never interested in schoolwork. I just not, it, it wasn't my thing at all. I could, I could get by, but it never sparked my interest really. But TV always did and the stuff I was watching and sport always did. You know, I'd watch and watch and watch. And that's, you know, almost all my lessons were taken, you know, again, with someone who's very visually impaired. I can sit up very close to the telly. So, you know, so many of my lessons are from TV, not, not from the real world. Because the real world, I can't really see it, you know?

• 22:07Steven Bartlett?

  You can't really see it?

• 22:09Speaker 00

  Well, everything's in a fog. I mean, that's the, that's the point. So I, I never noticed details. If I want to see a bird in a tree or a cricket ball going towards a bat, I can't, that's not something I can see. Never will do, can't drive or anything like that. Because on TV, the whole world is out there. I can go in, you know, I've never been a big traveller, anything like that. I, I want to stay at home, but I can watch any country in the world on television. You know, that's the thing that I can see. And I'm interested. The reason I don't want to travel is I don't want to travel. I don't want to get on a plane. I don't, I don't want all of that, but I want to learn about places. I want to see things and TV, you just, it just shows you everything and it showed me everything. And it introduced me to people and, you know, even now I watch daytime TV. I get so much information about human beings from watching those shows and seeing people's reactions, which I don't see in real life.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  You know, because I'm up close to it, I get to see it all and TV's given me all of that, you know, and. I think TV is so huge and such a huge part of our culture. We sort of, I think we forget it exists. I think we forget quite what a powerful thing it is. We talk about cinema and music and all this kind of stuff. And this is the age of television. You know, this is my generation. I think perhaps the your generation, the next one is going to be much less so. But television is the thing. It's in the corner of everybody's rooms, you know, and it shows us so many things. It teaches us so many things. But it's so, it became too successful that we sort of take it for granted. And now we'll say, oh, TV's collapsed. You go, yeah, but Country Farm's getting six million viewers. You know, that's like, it's a lot of people, you know, and um.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  I've so much of what I know about the world and what people like and politics and that comes from TV and what people watch.

• 23:47Steven Bartlett?

  Nystagmus, is that how you pronounce?

• 23:48Speaker 00

  Nystagmus, yeah.

• 23:49Steven Bartlett?

  Nystagmus?

• 23:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:50Steven Bartlett?

  Stagmus. That's a condition you've had since birth.

• 23:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:53Steven Bartlett?

  So you wouldn't, you wouldn't know any otherwise.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. I've always, yeah, my eyes, it's always been blurry and it's like an uncontrollable moving of the pupils. I did once, I never use autocue on television, so I can't see it. And once, when I did Have I Got News For You, they, because it's all gags that are written, you have to, and I was hosting. They said, you're gonna have to use it. Usually I can learn stuff, but that is a whole script worth of gags, so I couldn't. So they gave me, they said, look, this is the autocue that Brucey uses, so you'll be fine. And even that, it wasn't big enough. I said, you've got to move it nearer, make it bigger. In the end, we got it big enough. But when people were watching it, they said, oh, is Richard Osman drunk? Because they could see the effort of having to focus on something. My eyes were going absolutely crazy. So people think you're drunk. And so I never hosted it. I just went, you know what?

• 24:40Speaker 00

  I'll be a guest where, you know, I don't have to do it. And I never use autocue on any shows. And again, that's one of those silly things where what feels like a disadvantage is a huge advantage because, you know. So many TV shows, and we were talking just before we came on air about about how shows are edited, and I'm thinking about House of Games, I think about Dragon's Den, they're edited in a very sort of military way, you know, they got the same shots each time. And the one thing I've got control over is what I say. And the second something's on autocue, you say the same thing, because the producers put the same thing in, because they've got other things to be worried about. And the fact that I don't have it on autocue means I I just say different things each time, you know, and it's looser and it's freer, and people can watch five episodes in a week, and I haven't introduced any of them in the same way to the others. And so I've turned that thing of not being able

• 25:25Speaker 00

  to see to an advantage, which is, you know, I present television shows differently in a way that's hopefully a bit freer and feels a bit more natural.

• 25:34Steven Bartlett?

  The other thing you talk about, and I've seen this in a few interviews, is your height being something you've almost contended with. And it's, you know, it's interesting because a lot of short men want to be tall men. And to hear a tall man say, speak as if he would rather be a little bit shorter is quite surprising.

• 25:50Speaker 00

  Well, I'm six foot seven, which is too much, is the truth. And, you know, it makes you extraordinary. Look, my eyesight is not, people can't see that, right? Okay, so that's mine, and that's internalized, and, you know, I deal with that how I want to. My height is something that people can always see. And I find it, I find it fascinating, again, in this world of social media, when when when people talk about microaggressions and stuff that you must have seen your entire life, which is if you're different in any way, like, you're reminded of it, nonstop. Yeah, mostly, you know, people are not being cruel, sometimes they are. Now, I have a height, so I'm not being discriminated against because of my height, right? It's not, you know, I'm not, it's not costing me anything. But I do know that every single day of my life, I'm reminded of it, every single day,

• 26:33Speaker 00

  just nonstop. And so I know that to be a person of color, to be differently gendered, to be all of these things, I know that the microaggressions I get, you're getting nonstop every day of your life, and in a much more harmful way. So I've always, hopefully, really, really understood the idea of microaggressions and the idea that, please, I hear this every single day, even if you're trying to be kind, you know, if you see somebody is different, they do not need to be told. They do not need it pointed out every single day, because everyone has told them their entire life that they're different, you know. And I know you're just thinking, yeah, but it's just me. You think, yeah, but it's just you and five other people every single day forever. And, you know,

• 27:16Speaker 00

  I've had that with my height forever and ever and ever and for incredibly self-conscious. And most people are perfectly nice. Some people are horrible because some people, it's a really good radar for what people are like. I call it a C word radar sometimes. This being different in any way and which perhaps you'll agree with, which is so many people are sort of lovely and chat. But then, you know, a couple of times a day, there's just someone who wants to shout at you out of a window or just wants to make you feel small. Ironically, you know, that's what they want to do. And you just think, why? Well, someone's a bit different to you and you've got to shout something and make yourself feel a bit better. You know, and so being different in any way whatsoever, I think really teaches you

• 27:58Speaker 00

  about people and about the hate that's out there and about the unhappiness that's out there. Cause that's where it all comes from. And so being tall, yeah, has taught me about microaggressions and has made me try and fight for people who are different and has made me just say to people, if someone is different, right? Just talk to them normally. You don't need to, it's, we never had the word, but sometimes I'll sort of tweet something about, oh, I love this film or I love, I went to see this gig or blah, blah, blah. And like 10 people go, I'm glad I wasn't behind you. And you know what? It's a perfectly harmless joke, right? Perfectly harmless. I get it. I understand why people do it. But I get it every single time someone does it. So just think for one second, has this guy ever heard this before? Has he heard this thing before? Is it a fun thing to say to him?

• 28:43Speaker 00

  Cause to me, if I go to a gig or a cinema, it's a nightmare because I don't want to be in front of anyone. I go out of my way to be as far back as possible, which when you can't see, it's impossible. Or, you know, sit on the island or cinema, I take it seriously. And every single time they say it, now that's just a tiny example, but recently people have said, they've started saying, oh, you mustn't body shame. I thought, well, that's interesting because body shaming is sort of something that, um, you know, certain people would say that all that. That's what a snowflake, talking about body shaming. But actually it really, I think, yeah, that's what you're doing. That's what people have done to me for the last 30 years. They body shamed me like because they've talked about my stature and I felt ashamed.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  That's body shaming. I mean, that's what that is. I would never have thought of it as that. I just was embarrassed. It just made me feel shy. It made me not want to go out. But it's body shaming. And actually, having it named, you just think, oh, good for you. And it's the younger generation who do it. They're so great. And they're just saying, no, come on. That's body shaming. And you think, oh, that's such a such a lovely sort of thing to have in my armoury. They're gonna go, yeah, that's exactly what you're doing. And again, ninety percent of people, they mean nothing by it. And I get it. But it's just boring. And ten percent of people, it's you just think, oh, you're you're very unpleasant.

• 29:55Steven Bartlett?

  I am. I never. I'm so glad to hear that because it's really changed my perspective. Because, and I mean, genuinely mean that. Like, I wouldn't sit here and just go, yeah, I agree. I genuinely have learned something.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:05Steven Bartlett?

  And and I think I think it's I think it's because of what I how I phrased the question at the start, in the sense that a lot of people feel a ton of shame for being slightly shorter, which is, again, it's a it's it's a point point of being different. And I've never heard, in my experience, someone say, but it's completely right that wherever they go, they must be continually reminded of of the fact that they're taller than everybody and how that might might make them feel. When did that first start happening in your life?

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Well, sort of in my teenage, I was I was sort of very tall from about seventeen, probably. I was always tall, but kind of nice. Oh, you're the tallest in your class. And that's, you know, which is quite a fun thing to be. You know, and that's what you want. You want to be six two, right? That's what, you know, anyone who's five nine or six seven, that we all want to be six two. And yes, it's sort of seventeen, eighteen. And when I was off to university, which again is very, you know, so I'm sort of this guy who is much too tall and is awkward about being tall, who can't see anything, who's quite an introvert anyway. And so and I sort of had this false self anyway, from when he was nine years old and his dad left and everything was okay. So, you know, there was a real sort of storm of things brewing there. As I say, all of which have brought me good things in the end.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  But, you know, I think meant that, you know, I didn't I didn't live the life I should have done for many years because I was sort of hiding away from things. Some things I have to hide away from because with my eyesight, I just can't. It's not safe for me to do various things. And some things, just my height and sort of thinking I'm gonna look stupid. Oh, I'm gonna look stupid. I'm on a roller coaster thing. And also, what if I come? What if my legs don't fit on that? And, you know, just silly, silly little things. And You know, the world will not, the world is not shy in letting you know that you're weird. You know, that there's something weird about you. And certainly, that's what I felt. I felt weird. And of course, as soon as you feel weird, you have to sort of, you know, you live with it and your, your, your behavior sort of changes and you're gonna go, no, I am a weird person.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  So I have to hide that away or explain away why I'm weird. You know, I'm very grateful that the one thing I always had was I was good with words. I was able to put things into words. I was always able to make people laugh. And so for years, I've been able to paper over the cracks of all of that because I had all this stuff. But I knew that I could sit in a room and make people laugh and I knew I could say the right things to people. And I, and so I sort of, I, I got away with it for years and years and years is the truth.

• 32:22Steven Bartlett?

  You, you referred two times now to this storm in your twenties where kind of, I guess this was the point about your true north. You must have realized that you were far from your true north and you needed to kind of turn back or get across towards your true north. What was this storm in your twenties?

• 32:37Speaker 00

  Well, I don't know. It's, it's, it's an interesting one really because, you know, professionally, I was doing the thing that I loved. You know, I'd started working in telly at twenty one. I haven't had a day off since. And, you know, I was being successful because, because I came from a home where I watched TV. And I was in an industry full of people who didn't watch TV. It was very, very easy for me to rise through the ranks and to make shows and to invent my own shows and to sell them because, you know, I felt very, very at home. And so I was being successful and I was, you know, exec producing shows and, and all sorts of things. And, you know, I had kids very young, which I'm delighted I did because I'm fifty one now and they're like both in their twenties, which is amazing. You know, my big presenting issue was, was, was, was a food addiction and, and weird behavior around food,

• 33:21Speaker 00

  which, which I can sort of see would be what a nine year old would have, would have set up for himself. And

• 33:27Steven Bartlett?

  What do you mean by that?

• 33:28Speaker 00

  Well, I think if you, if you are gonna be an addict, which is almost always, how do I run from this pain? How do I run from the fact that, you know, I'm not where, where, where I need to be? When you're nine, food is probably the only thing that's available to you. The food attachment may be, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's only a certain amount of things a, a nine year old has at their disposal, Hot Wheels. I mean, there's, there's not a lot you can get addicted to. And so, you know, I, I would have addictive behaviors around food and that, I never sat and thought, oh. I've got a problem with my life. I never thought that. I never thought, oh, you know, I'm I'm not who I'm supposed to be. But what I definitely thought was, why, why do I have these eating behaviours? That's weird. And in a way, that explained my weirdness away for me. I mean,

• 34:13Speaker 00

  you're weird because because you have this weird eating patterns. That's the thing that makes you weird. And you think, no, that's lots of things that make me weird. And so that's the thing that I went to get help for, you know, so that's the first time I went into therapy, which again, from my background, is not something I would have considered. But it had got to such a stage, and I was so tired of this behaviour, of how weird it was and how dumb it made me feel.

• 34:38Steven Bartlett?

  What was the behaviour?

• 34:39Speaker 00

  Just overeating and, you know, binge eating and all that kind of just inability to control food in any way whatsoever. Or if I was controlling it, just being incredibly strict. So either sort of dieting or or being out of control with food, which is much more common than I think we allow as a culture. I think, you know, alcoholism and drug addiction, we get, we understand, and there is pathways to sort of getting better. But I think food addiction is is is the sort of last taboo. But, you know, I haven't spoken about it before. The the messages I get from people just saying, yeah, that's me. Or, you know, my husband came into the kitchen and in tears and just said, that's, that's me. That's been me for 20 years. And that's the thing that I've got. And has never

• 35:22Speaker 00

  spoken about it to people. So I think I think it's really, really, really common. Also, why wouldn't it be? You know, given the food industry, right? Why wouldn't it be? Why would why would food addiction not not be a thing? And so I think, yeah, those behaviours, where you just go, do you know what? I've got these wonderful kids. I've got this great career. And yet I'm still secretly eating and feeling deeply ashamed of myself. You know, what what's that? Right? And after a while, you think, oh, maybe it's not the food. Maybe it's me. You know, maybe the food is a symptom of something rather than the problem, which of course is the case. You know, booze is never the problem, is it? Drugs are never the problem. That what you're running from is the problem. So, yeah, I went to therapy. And honestly, from the first session I did, I

• 36:05Speaker 00

  That's my path to getting better. And you're never not being addict, but that's my path to kind of going, okay, I get it. I see, I see what this is.

• 36:13Steven Bartlett?

  Most people I don't think will understand when you, when you say binge eating and overeating. I think a lot of people listening think, well, I, I overeat.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:19Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean? But, but what I've read from what you described is a very, very different to just overeating a big meal once in a while. Can you give me some detail as to what you mean by?

• 36:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And again, look, it's, it's, it's shaming for me to do so, but, but a good example would be, I remember one of the first years with, with the, you know, talking to the therapist about it and, and it was, it was sort of mid December, so I wasn't going to see him for a few weeks. And he said, look, I hope, you know, I hope Christmas Day is not too triggering because people eat so much on Christmas Day, you know, the classic thing on Christmas Day, oh my God, you know, all this and all the chocolates and the crisps and we had a meal anyway. And then there's cheese at night and blah, blah, blah. And I said, honestly, I've eaten like it's Christmas Day every day from my twenties and thirties. That's how, you know, that's what I've done. When I'm in an episode, you know, everything is like Christmas Day. I'm not eating because I'm hungry. I'm eating because the food is there and because I need, I need to not be sitting by myself,

• 37:12Speaker 00

  you know, and thinking about whatever I need to be thinking about it. So, you know, it's that, it's that idea. It's that, it's that sort of, it's not, oh, aren't I naughty? I had a cream cake. You know, it's aren't I naughty? I had a cream cake. And then I had the other three. And then 20 minutes later, when like there's even the tiniest amount of space, I went out and got some more food. You know, it's that, it's, it's, I mean, it's an addiction. There's no other way of putting it. It's like having a bottle of vodka, then having another bottle of vodka, then having another bottle of vodka. It's the same thing. Uh, and the second you shine a light on it, listen, some people listening will, will won't believe it exists. That's, by the way, absolutely fine. You know, it's, listen, we believe what we believe, but I'm talking to the people for whom this

• 37:51Speaker 00

  behavior might feel familiar, who've got friends or relatives to whom this behavior might feel familiar. It's real, you know, it's a real thing. And it's quite hard to get your way out of because you have to eat, right? But there's ways through it. And the first way through it is to shine a light on it and just say, oh, no, no, no, that's, that's me. And to, and to, and to try and take that shame away from it a bit.

• 38:12Steven Bartlett?

  When did you realize that it was a, in your own words, a strange behavior? Because? I've got a friend who's been through a similar, well, I've got two friends who've been through very similar things. One of them's, I mean, they're the two closest people and, you know, I know they've both talked about it very publicly. One of which in a podcast, one of which does, talks, she talks about it all the time on her Instagram and I've, the two closest people in my life went through that. And if one of them who, again, she's talked about this publicly, that resulted in bulimia and a bunch of other very destructive eating patterns. How did you figure out that that it was different?

• 38:48Speaker 00

  Well, I think you can't, you know, you can, you can fool everybody except yourself, you know, finally. And just, you know, a lifetime, you know, when I was a kid, I would secretly eat and I would find ways to get food and to, you know, and my mom would go, oh, where have all those crisps gone? That's weird. And you'd be like, and you know, then she started hiding the crisps in places because she thought they kept going missing. Just every day of every month of every year since then, just, just hunting down and finding the food that I wanted and feeling ashamed about it afterwards. So I, I knew amongst the success I was having and the friends I had and the lovely time I was having with people, I knew I had this weird secret thing that wasn't

• 39:28Speaker 00

  going away and that made me unhappy and certainly made me unhealthy. And that probably at some point I was going to have to do something about, but it took, it took a long time. I'm shocked about how long it took before I finally went, do you know what? This is, I need to do something about it.

• 39:43Steven Bartlett?

  But is, we often understand how normal our behaviour is by comparison.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:49Steven Bartlett?

  Were people saying things to you like, like making little jokes and comments and stuff like that?

• 39:55Speaker 00

  No, not really. I mean, I could tell I was overweight, but, but like most addicts, you know, you can, it's amazing how secret you can be about things is the truth. You know, how you can buy things in secret, consume them in secret, lock yourself away, you know, not be around people just so you can eat, you know, and plus of course, don't forget, you can then go out for a pizza with all your mates who were having their one meal of the day and you've been eating all day, but you think, great, I get to have a pizza as well. So, you know, socially you can eat a lot as well and then go home and eat more and eat more convenience foods and, and what have you. So, yeah, I always knew.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  I always knew it was, I always knew something was wrong. But again, I think probably I'd added it to the list of things that were weird about me, that I'm tall and I can't see and I've got this weird food thing. So I just thought, you know what, you're not really fit for this world is the truth, you know, and you have all of these things that are up with you. So I think I just put it in the list of things I wasn't probably, I wasn't built to live the life that other people were living. And again, of course, these days, you realize everyone is, everyone's not built, everyone goes home and does something weird, not everyone, but you know what I mean. So many people have got their thing, but I didn't know that in those days. I didn't know. I just thought that I was uniquely, you know, not fit for these times.

• 41:09Steven Bartlett?

  Being a kid born in the 1970s from a working class background, as you've said, is, you know, the idea of therapy, that the notion of mental health is quite an alien one. So that day where you decide to make the call to a therapist, what's going through your head on that day?

• 41:24Speaker 00

  Honestly, I was, I was, I was really ready for it, is the truth. I wasn't even kind of, I wasn't even, I was, I was praying that it was gonna work, rather than thinking it wasn't gonna work. And from the second I walked in, this guy called Bruce, and he's brilliant, and he, you know, he'd said, talk me through the problem, just, you know. And I said, oh, blah, blah, blah, this is the problem. And I'm, you know, I was overeating, but you know, maybe it's okay because, you know, blah, blah, you know. So I was giving it all this. And I was saying, but actually, it's sort of fine, because, you know, I'm, I'm doing this and, you know, I'm, I can, I can control it. And he let me talk for about 10 minutes. And he just said, and how's that all working out for you? And he thought, yeah, well, you're right, it's working out terribly for me. And from that moment, he had me. I just, okay, let's go on this journey. And like a personal trainer, you

• 42:09Speaker 00

  just think, okay, I trust you, you know, absolutely. You've seen it all before. You understand all of these things. You can use my cleverness to your benefit. And it's just been, I'm so immensely grateful for everything that he's done and the wisdom he's shown me. And one of the things I try and do in the books and in everywhere is try and pass that on, because I was lucky enough to be able to afford this guy, who's not, you know, he's not insanely, but it's difficult to find a therapist. And part of my job is any bit of wisdom he passes to me is I try and pass on, because that's I feel like that's something that I can do and try and give people the thing that I've been given.

• 42:52Steven Bartlett?

  What are some of those ideas that he, those kind of unlocking, were there, because I'm thinking, I assume there was like some bit of eureka moments where someone says something, you've kind of, you detailed one there where he says, well, how's that working out for you?

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:03Steven Bartlett?

  Were there any like thoughts that he's given you, that Bruce has given you, that you can, that we can all apply to our lives that will help us understand ourselves better or free ourselves from whatever we've imprisoned ourselves with?

• 43:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, I think his key thing is, is this idea of shame and the things that make us feel ashamed. Because here's the thing, if you start feeling ashamed, you then start feeling ashamed of being ashamed. In the same way, anyone who's ever had a panic attack will tell you, if you start panicking, you then panic about panicking. Or if you start feeling anxious, you're then anxious about your anxiety. And that's the absolute thing you have to stop. That's the cutoff. So if you're feeling shame, or you're feeling panic, or you're feeling anxiety, let it be, okay? It's there for a reason. It's looked after you for many years, okay? And that was just another thing, you've got to make peace with this way that you've tried to protect yourself through shame or through panic or anxiety, right?

• 43:55Speaker 00

  Just let it be what it is. And once you do that, it burns itself out. And listen, it'll come back tomorrow, and it'll come back the next day. But what it doesn't do is spiral and spiral and spiral and lead you to self-medicate. You know, if you can just let shame be what it is, if you can let panic or anxiety, or however you experience what it is, however you experience the thing where you just realize that this ain't right. You know, this is not who I want to be or how I want to be. Whatever that feeling is for you, let it be what it is for a while, because it's not going away anytime soon. You know, if you want regime change, right, that's slow, you know, that's, that boots on the ground, you know, it's bit by bit. So let it be what it is, allow it, shine a light on it. And he'd always say, you know, if you're in a moment of shame.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  And you can become conscious about it in some way, right? So say I've just eaten some food and I'm feeling ashamed about it because I just was sitting there and just thinking that was so dumb. Why have I done this again?

• 44:55Speaker 00

  Have a conversation with yourself. You say, right, now that conversation, that's you talking to you. Okay, that both of both of those bits are perfectly valid. Now, one bit is the one that's harmful to you. That's you. And the other bit is the bit that's trying to save you. That's you as well. And the key thing is just start practicing the muscles on the one that's trying to save you. You know, just give it a bit more airtime each time. Just give it a few more arguments each time. The other one's never going away and it never will. Any addict will tell you that's never going anywhere. It's power and some days it's so powerful, you know, but you have to let the other side of the argument. You've got to give it some strength. You've got to send it to the gym, you know? And that's, that's the thing. It's, it's saying you're always going to have this, all right?

• 45:35Speaker 00

  Because most people's addictive behaviors or whatever it is, come from childhood and come from a self that we built up almost always to protect ourselves from something. Okay, so you have to love it a bit. You have to love this thing that you set up to protect yourself, but also you have to talk to it. And when you're talking to it, you have to understand that there's two sides of yourself and you've got to build up the one that's talking to it. You've just got to build it and build it and build it and give it strength. And it's hard to do and you'll find different ways of doing it and different people will find different ways. But just remembering that the one that's saying, hold on, maybe I shouldn't have a drink. You know, that, that is equally valid as the one who's saying I should have a drink. The one who's saying you should have a drink, he's got a point.

• 46:20Speaker 00

  Of course he's got a point, you know, it kind of works for you. It numbs things, you know, listen, you wouldn't do it if it hadn't worked, you know, and you like it. So that's, it's valid, but this other one is also valid. And maybe, maybe listen to it a bit more often and just give it a bit more airtime. And then over the years, you might find that it's got more power than the other one.

• 46:38Steven Bartlett?

  Is that what you found?

• 46:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, I I have found it. And listen, it's really, really hard is the truth. And I get it with with alcoholics and drug addicts, you you can just cut off drinking booze and and taking drugs. It's incredibly difficult, and I see the struggles that people have with it. And and again, it's a lifelong thing. And every day you think, please, today, just let me drink today. I would love to have a drink. You know, you'll never meet an alcoholic who wouldn't just love to have a drink today. And with food, you do have to eat. So you have to you have to put in a slightly more different set of rules. But you know, you just have to give yourself boundaries and know that you mustn't cross those um those boundaries. But yeah, I think that honestly shining a light on things is the thing. Talk to people about it. Talk to people you love. You know, you'll be shocked. And I was shocked when I opened up to people.

• 47:23Speaker 00

  And the people closest to me I opened up and they went, yeah, of course, of course, I know, of course, I know that. But once they know about it, they can help, you know? And that's very powerful and it's very, very important. And then, you know, it's it's nice for me to be able to speak publicly about it because I do think probably there aren't enough male role models saying that food can be difficult and food can be an issue. And so I'm happy to be one. I'm sort of not. I'm embarrassed. Don't get me wrong. It's embarrassing for me to talk about. I absolutely put that on the record, you know, I'd rather not be talking about it. But the things that come from it are more powerful. And the more I talk about it, the less power it has over me. And hopefully, the more I talk about it, the the less power it might have over other people.

• 48:04Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things I've learned from sitting here with with people from all walks of life that have been through a variety of different traumas is I used to think that we could cure this stuff. Like, we could go to therapy, we could read this thing, read this quote, spin around, tap our head and it's gone. And I've come to learn that that's it's never gone.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:21Steven Bartlett?

  I I now I almost view it in my head as almost the scales. And if you what you're trying to do is in fact make the allow the decision to be made by the. The better side.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:31Steven Bartlett?

  But the the trauma or the the beliefs that you've built as a child about the world and yourself and your relationships, whatever, is always going to be there. And it can be triggered and then flared like a flame with oxygen.

• 48:41Speaker 00

  I I think that's it. And the key is not to panic when it when it rears its head again. The key is never to think, oh, I'm never going to be rid of it. The key is to go, oh, I'm never going to be rid of it. That's the thing. As soon as the second you go, oh, it's always going to be there. It's very freeing because you kind of go, OK, listen, every now and again, it's going to flare up. But I don't need to panic. I don't need to go, all this work I've done, all this work I've done on myself, all these books that I've read, and it's still there, it hasn't gone away. And the second you go, it's staying, right? It's like a sofa you don't like in your living room, right? It's not going anywhere, OK? You just have to learn to live with it. You know, sometimes you can look around, you don't even notice the sofa anymore. And sometimes you go, oh, my God, look at that sofa, right? It is staying. And if if you, it gives you a lot of power to know that it's staying and and that when it's in charge,

• 49:26Speaker 00

  which it will be sometimes, uh, that it's OK, just to go, no, listen, just let it, let it do its thing. And the one thing that that addictive part of your personality wants you to do is panic. You know, that's the one thing it wants, because that's where it thrives. You know, it thrives on the chaos. That's what it wants. It wants you to be off balance. So you have to sort of occasionally just go, I get it, you're in charge for a few days or for a week or so or a month. You do your thing. I'm going to try and just live in good faith in the rest of my life and and and just sort of let you burn out.

• 50:00Steven Bartlett?

  Twenty years in the in the TV business, roughly. Was it twenty?

• 50:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, so what, thirty, really? If if I still count as being in the TV business now, which I, because sometimes I forget I am.

• 50:10Steven Bartlett?

  That's a long time to be in TV. Tell me, tell me about that phase of your career and really like what it, um, what? I guess the question, my, the question I wanted to ask you is, how come you were so successful in TV? I know no one ever likes blowing, you know, smoke up their arse, whatever, but, um, you were very, very, very successful. You you produced some unbelievable formats that, you know, go beyond luck or charm, you know? So in hindsight, why, why you?

• 50:36Speaker 00

  Well, I love, well, it's a good question. I mean, I love, and one I feel more comfortable talking about now, I've I've sort of, I've I've sort of stepped off that that carousel now. I think that I loved television. You know, and I loved seeing what entertained people and I've got quite mainstream taste. So I it was in my DNA. I wasn't having to leave university, go into television and think, right, what do people like? I never, I've never, ever, ever had to go into work and say, what do people like? Right? I sort of know that something I like enough people will like that it's a TV show. So I've always loved that. I've always loved creativity. I've always loved, you know, sitting down with a pen and paper and knocking things into shape. And I've always loved sport and the formats of sport and knockouts and stuff like that.

• 51:20Speaker 00

  So in Jeopardy, that's very, very natural to me as well. But then I also, for reasons unknown to me, I love sales. I love selling. You know, I absolutely love going in and pitching. And the thing I love about it is working at what people want and why, and how they're going to respond and how to give them the thing that they want. And so that combination of I would come up with things I was proud of, and then I would try and sell them. And you know, that's the thing, that's the thing that I love. If I've had any success, it's been thinking of ideas that I would like to watch and then packaging them in such a way that someone at Channel Four or the BBC will give you four million quid for it, which is a big ask. You know, selling a TV show is quite a big ask. It's like being

• 52:04Speaker 00

  a car salesman. You know, you don't need to sell that many cars to be successful. You know, and the TV is the same way. You've just got to make sure that you've got the best car out there. And so, yeah, I think, I think a mix of the introversion of loving sitting down and working things out and working out formats. And then the the extra version of being able to say to people, I think this is really going to work for your channel. You know, those two things together have always driven me. Creatively, I'm incredibly ambitious. I love to create new things. And in business terms, I'm also incredibly ambitious, which is I like to build value and I like to make money for people.

• 52:39Steven Bartlett?

  There's two thoughts there, which in my head almost sit in conflict. One of them is I make things that I would love to watch and then figuring out what other people want.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  Well, that's the thing is I've never really, I've never bothered thinking about what people want. And I think the second you do that, that's a lie, actually. When so Endemol, which I ran with a group of people for many years, after Big Brother and various things, there was a point, probably sort of two thousand and six, two thousand and seven, where we got so huge and so powerful that we could sort of sell anything, if that makes sense. Or not that we could sell anything, but people were so desperate to have product from us that they were buying substandard things. So, you know, there's a couple of times where I went in and we sold shows that actually I was thinking, I don't know about this. And it's very rare that I would go into a pitch meeting thinking, I don't know about this one. But they would buy it in the room. And then you got, and then you got to make it. And guess what? It's really

• 53:30Speaker 00

  hard to make because no one cares. No one watches it because they can tell it's not, it doesn't come from anyone's heart. So you don't get a second series. And TV business is all about second series and third series. You make no money from a first series. So we've definitely been in rooms where I pitched stuff that I didn't care about. But every time there's something you care, you really care about, and you can sell, and then you will give it your absolute best shot making it. Because I sort of, I know how to make it because this, this is the thing I want to watch. It was like books. I wrote books that I would like to read that I didn't see out there. And with TV programs, it's just, oh, my God, you'd have an idea in the morning and just go, I would love to watch that. I would love to watch that. Then you sit down, you workshop it, you work it out, and then you go and pitch it. And, you know, that was

• 54:14Speaker 00

  my entire career. I never really got involved too much in the, in the, in the, in the real business side of, side of things. And, you know, in exploitation and rights and foreign sales and distribution and all of that. I was just sat in a creative hub, really, just coming up with ideas, just sort of feeding the engine. And I was able to do it because I would sort of be doing it anyway. I would be, I would sit at home and do that if I wasn't in that office. I would be thinking, this is the thing I would love to see on TV. And I was just lucky enough to be in an environment where I could have an idea on a Tuesday and we could set it on a Thursday. And it's comes from, I loved it. But the second, the second you second guess yourself, or the public will go, what would people like? I don't, I don't buy it. I don't

• 54:59Speaker 00

  buy it when people write books like that. I don't buy it when people make TV programs like that. And I was surrounded by people in that industry, early on, not so much at Endemol, where we were TV lovers, but earlier on, where I was, it was full of people who were just in it for the lifestyle and it didn't watch telly. There's people even now who don't watch telly. You just think, come on, do something else.

• 55:18Steven Bartlett?

  What is creativity to you then? So, you know, you've described a few things there, but what, at its essence, what is creativity and how does one, can one go about being more creative or becoming more creative?

• 55:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's a tricky one that because it's always, it's always just been the way that my brain has worked. I was talking to the husband of a friend of mine, he was a, he's a, he's a working class French guy who is a maths genius. This guy, so he grew up in the banlieue of Paris and at about 11 years old gets plucked out of the school system and taken to this like a college for mathematicians because he's, because he's a genius. And since has made a fortune in the city by just algorithms, right? That's his in trading algorithms, right? Because it's the maths. And so I was talking to him, we were on holiday recently, and I said, so you just, you come up with stuff that's new that other people haven't spotted. He's like, he's, yeah, he does a French, I went

• 56:10Speaker 00

  to his accent, it's very, almost comically French. And he was saying, yeah, that's, that's exactly what I do. And I say, how do you experience that? I said, because I know how I experience it. And I experienced it, there's five or six clouds of things going around the outside of my head at any given time. Something I've just seen on TV, something I just read in the newspaper, something, something somebody said to me, something my mum said to me, something that's happened at home, five different things. And occasionally two of those things will bump into each other. And you go, whoa, I never thought of that before. And so without saying that, I said, how do you experience creativity? And he said, well, I just, I've got all these concepts, sort of, they sort of rush around the outside of my head. And occasionally two of them will bump into each other, or three of them will bump into each other. And suddenly I've got something new. And that's how I've always

• 56:53Speaker 00

  experienced creativity. Now, is that useful to people? I don't know. Other than to say, keep your eyes open and your ears open all the time and be listening to the world. Just see how the world is spinning, see how it's working. And sometimes there is, if you're in TV, it's seeing how a particular television programme works. That's sort of a very direct bit of copying. But almost always, it's then you're on the bus and someone says something to their kid, or someone's late for school and they're running. And you kind of go, wait a minute, that reminds me of something. So it's, it's eyes open, ears open all the time, and just allow things to bump into each other, I would say.

• 57:31Steven Bartlett?

  There's a point that I There's another piece there, which I've just noticed from you saying this, which is I love the analogy of the clouds. So I was thinking, okay, so I need more clouds in my life, which is more points of inspiration. And then the second thing is, well, there's loads of people have got loads of clouds, but they don't have the intent to connect the clouds, which is like, you have a, you've designed a life where you have, you actually have commitments to make the, when the clouds bounce, to turn it into something. A lot of people's clouds are bouncing and they're just going, oh, look, the clouds just hit each other.

• 57:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's probably, I've never thought about, I think that's incredibly wise, two different things. Yeah. Firstly, increase the number of clouds, which is increase the amount of people. If you want to be creative, by the way, you don't have to be, it's overrated. But increase the amount of clouds, increase, increase the data points that are coming into you, you know, the people you're seeing, or, you know, just go and do something different, go and learn Japanese, whatever it is, something that gives you a different cloud. And then, yeah, it's, I guess, yeah, professionally, they've, they've had to be bumping into each other for, for my whole life. So it's, it's completely natural to me. But yeah, if you can force yourself sometimes to, to, to sort of think of the things that have gone around your head, think of the things that happened to you today, think of the things you watched, think about a film you just saw and why you liked it, or a film you just saw and why you didn't like it, you know, think

• 58:41Speaker 00

  about an argument you just had with your mum and what she said and why it's annoying. And, you know, is it the same argument you keep having? Is there any way of fixing that in a different way? So just keep those clouds going and then, you know, occasionally let them just sort of intersect. And that's, yeah, I think by and large, that's where ideas come from, you know, and it's, you talk about it a lot on this podcast as well. Hard work is also a thing. You know, actually putting the hours in, you know, it's all very well to go, oh, no, I just had the idea on the bus and then I came in. But you only have the idea on the bus because you spent four hours the previous day with a blank piece of paper in the office, just thinking, oh, God, I've got nothing, you know, because that's dislodging so many things in your head. So you, yeah, you, you have to, you have to work on it. And then occasionally, occasionally the gods give you a little gift.

• 59:25Steven Bartlett?

  I've thought so much, you know, because I think, I think we're all artists in some respect in our own way, whether it's blogging or DJing, or if it's writing or making TV. I think that, and I also think expression is, it's almost therapy for us.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:39Steven Bartlett?

  So I really, I really, I've got behind this idea over the last year of like, we all have our own form of art. And when we express ourselves, it's good for our minds. So the, the advantage that I think me and you've both had is we've been in careers where that art has been monetized, or there's been a real reward for it. So it comes, so there's an incentive to drive it out of us. But if you're someone driving a lorry up and down this country, walking the dog this morning before they go in, you know, go, go and work their job in a factory or, or, you know, I see all of the tags we get on a Monday when the episodes come out.

• 1:00:09Steven Bartlett?

  How do they go about creating that incentive to, to, to, when the clouds to connect to turn it into something? Or even to write it on a piece of paper, you know?

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, you, you're quite right. We, we both have very short routes to monetization.

• 1:00:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  But I sense that's important to both of us.

• 1:00:23Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  As well. And so we, we probably sort that out, you know, and found, found a career where, where that, where that happens. And it's interesting, you know, if you're a lorry driver, the greatest invention of the 20th century, the thing that changed the world more than any other invention is the lorry driver, who, when he was sort of dropping off his load at the docks in Boston, and you know, he's got all the kind of stevedores taking everything out of the back of his, you know, lorry, and then putting it in another sort of big container to put on the ship. Just went, what if the container on the back of my lorry was the same container that went on the ship? You know? And what if you take that off and you take the container from the ship and you put it back on my lorry? And then I drive it back down to San Francisco.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  What if you did that and invented the technology for, you know, the container crates as we see them now? And opened up all of World Trade, right? As one lorry driver, just having one idea on one day, you know? And absolutely changed the world. So there's no industries where you can't be creative. Because if you're a lorry driver, you really, really know your business, right? And you know.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  What causes delays? You know when your work is harder. You know the five minutes you could knock off here, there or the other. You know when you turn up at a place, the paperwork you have to go through. You know that three of those forms could be two forms, you know? You know that if people knew you were arriving 10 minutes earlier, you could leave half an hour earlier because, you know, break patterns could be changed. You know all of that stuff. And so work on that if that's the industry you want to stay in. And if you want to make TV programs or write books or write social media stuff, then just consume it a lot, you know? And I just think you can only be creative in an area you're interested in. That's the truth. You cannot be creative in an area not interested in. It just doesn't, that's not how creativity works because creativity has to sort of be buzzing around all the time and be, and be curious.

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  So work out what it is you're interested in and then surround yourself with it as much as you can. It's hard if you're, if you're, if the area you're interested in is not your job, because that's something you have to do in your own time. But if it's something you're serious about and you're curious about and you have the abilities, then just, yeah, think about exactly what you said, which is intent, which is surrounding yourself by, by more things. And then, you know, making those connections.

• 1:02:38Steven Bartlett?

  The, the intentionality, I'm always trying to understand it because it links back to what you've done with your books, which have been just the most insane smash hit I've ever encountered in the studio. With, with TV formats, how intentional, how much is there sort of, I don't even know if intentionality is a word, intentionality versus like

• 1:02:58Steven Bartlett?

  luck and chance and serendipity. Cause you've seen this for your entire career. So how much can you predict the success of these things?

• 1:03:05Speaker 00

  Oh, you can never predict. Funny enough, Deal and No Deal, which you just mentioned, is the only show where after the pilot, I thought this is a hit. I thought there is no way this show is not going to be a hit. And it was a huge hit, but it's the only time. And there's been shows I've done before where I think, oh, this has got a good chance and they've disappeared and shows where I thought, hmm, I don't know about this. And they've been huge, you know? You can't tell at all. And that's why it's important to trust yourself and do stuff that you love. So the intentionality is that. If I put a lot of work into something and a book is this the hardest I've ever worked in anything, if I put a lot of work on something, I want the upside, if it works to be, you know, I want there to be an upside if it works, you know, I want, if I do this properly, I want there to be no limit to what can happen with it, you know, because I like output for, you

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  know, if I put in input, I like output to come out. And with TV, it's sort of easier because, as you say, you can, you can invent something on Tuesday instead of on Thursday. With a book, you've got to spend two years. And so all the way through, I sort of thought, if I do this well, I think this has got a chance. So my, my, my sort of creative mainstream brain was thinking that. I wasn't thinking, I need to make it more like this, I need to make it more like that. I a hundred percent wrote the book I wanted to write. But as I was writing, I was thinking, you know, if you, if you do this properly, if this properly hits, then people will really like it. If no one had bought a single copy, or if I'd shown it to an agent and she just said, this is not for us, that would have been fine too, by the way, because I'd written it. And that's creativity in and of itself is, is, is a thing. You know, you can paint a painting in your attic and it's like the Mona

• 1:04:33Speaker 00

  Lisa, because you did it. But the fact that when it did come out, people liked it was, yeah, I'd say was a huge bonus.

• 1:04:42Steven Bartlett?

  I read a quote and it said, there's a reason why great, great books become blockbuster movies, but blockbuster movies never become great books. And he says, one of them's written by committee and one of them's written by a solo author with their own ideas and inspirations. And I remember thinking that, fuck, that's so true.

• 1:04:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?

• 1:04:58Steven Bartlett?

  J K Rowling, yourself, you know.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:01Steven Bartlett?

  Spielberg bought your book?

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  He has bought the book, yeah. He's bought the rights to the book. I hope he's bought the actual book as well. You never know. No, it's true. And listen, publishing is a very interesting industry. Having come out of television, I know you had a big hit book. And it's a very, very.

• 1:05:16Steven Bartlett?

  No, this is a big hit. Mine was, mine was a pebble in the ocean.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  But it's an interesting industry. And if you bring any sales techniques into the world of books, it's, I think, a slight shock to their system. And, and, and, and it's a very, very, you know, I love it. It's such a nice, kind, friendly industry. But, you know, I come at it from a TV angle, which is, you know, I'm. TV, you look at the overnight service and there's millions and you know, that's what I've always judged things on. And, and, and in books, it's a slightly different market. So I've loved being able to apply some of the things I know and some of the techniques I know. So the, the book itself, listen, like with anything, you have to be proud of it. And I'm so proud of these books. I love them. Okay. Is that, that's the, that's the absolute base point of all of this.

• 1:06:02Speaker 00

  But once we've got that, I've loved the selling process, which I think a lot of authors don't love. I love it. I love the marketing process. I've got something I'm really proud of. I want as many people as possible to read it. That's what I want. I want as many people as possible to enjoy this book, want to entertain as many people as possible. And that's a process that I've loved and a process I think publishing is not quite set up for is the truth. And it's, it's been fun sort of finding, finding a way through that.

• 1:06:29Steven Bartlett?

  And when you wrote this book, you didn't, you wrote it all before you'd showed anybody, from what I understand.

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:33Steven Bartlett?

  The first book.

• 1:06:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, the first one because, well, because only because I'm on telly and you know, that thing of celebrity authors and you know, it'll be easy to write a chapter and say, would you like to publish it? And, and of course they would, you know, because then again, you don't have to sell a whole lot of books to make, make, make a profit in that industry. So I thought, I, I thought, I, I think that they would just say yes, and I wouldn't have any clue if it's any good. So I, I, I wrote the whole thing just to, because I wanted to prove that it was a good book, sent it to an agent who I trust very, very much. He's comes from a very similar background to me. And I said, listen, you've got to look me in the whites and the eyes and tell me, would you represent this book if I wasn't on TV? And she said, listen, I would a hundred percent. Easy of her to say, but she did. And then before, just as it was going out to the publishers in the UK, we sold it immediately in Germany, right?

• 1:07:19Speaker 00

  And Germany is a big market, Germany, and they love crime fiction. And from that moment, I just thought, oh, okay, I can now, I sort of believe, I, I liked the book, but of course, you know, well, sometimes I hated it and sometimes I liked it. But, but I thought, I think it's got something. But the second Germany bought it, and Germany have no idea who I am, you know, couldn't care less who I am. And they bought the book just on the strength of their manuscript. And I thought from that moment, do you know what? Everything now is going to go full steam ahead because someone who doesn't know I'm a celebrity. Has just bought this book and it's been top ten in Germany for like two years. It's like, it's like nonstop out there and they don't know who I am. I'll go out there and do press and they're like, they have no idea who I am. They just know the books.

• 1:07:58Speaker 00

  And yeah, so I was glad that I kept it secret because I never had that worry of are people just publishing this because of who I am? Because I could see straight away from other territories that people who had no idea who I am. And Spielberg, again, within, I mean, we'd only literally only just sold it. So, you know, there'd been no hoopla, no announcements. And he bought the rights immediately because he'd read it and liked it and he didn't know who I was. So that from that moment, I just thought, I have the right now to really put my foot down on the accelerator and, and sell this because I, because I, because I believe in it.

• 1:08:30Steven Bartlett?

  You said sometimes you loved it, sometimes you hated it. Talk to me about doubt and as it relates to your creative work of your career generally.

• 1:08:36Speaker 00

  Well, I think, I think, I mean, anyone who's sitting at home and writing a book right now, you know, half the time you're just thinking, what is this? This is absolute nonsense. Or, you know, this is, that wouldn't happen. Or you just think no one's going to be interested in this story.

• 1:08:53Speaker 00

  And, you know, I still think, I thought it would book two and book three, both when they came out, I just thought, I know, I think maybe you've lost it. And then the, the reaction is, is, is sort of reassures you each time. And listen, I'll lose it at some point.

• 1:09:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's impossible to, to, you know, I'll read it, I'll read back scenes the next day and, you know, something will make me cry, I'll make me laugh or there'll be a nice line, I think, oh, that, that's, that's something. But you're, you're so close to a book that if you were thinking it was good, something's up. You know, you have to think it's awful because, you know, it's like, it's never going to be the, the beautiful shiny thing that's in your head. You know, when, when I'm writing the fourth one at the moment and in my head, I know that, I know the story and it's so, you would not believe how gleaming it is and how intricate and beautiful and like perfectly crafted and toned it is. And I know that the thing I handed in, what I handed will not be that, you know, because there'll be compromises and I'll make mistakes and there'd just be stuff that's wrong. So I'll always be comparing it to.

• 1:09:51Speaker 00

  The thing that's in my head, you know, and everyone, every writer in their head has the perfect novel. It's all up there. And the thing you you you you give is is not that thing. But the key with the key with novels, I think, is if people are engaged with your characters and love your characters, and the nice thing is in this this, but people, the characters speak to people, which is which is great. If people love your characters, then the rest is just craft, the rest is just getting the story down. You know, the rest is just sort of putting them on a journey. Because if people love your characters and they care what happens to them, so you can make stuff happen then. And you know that the stuff that you make happen, people will care about.

• 1:10:29Steven Bartlett?

  When you look back at the success of this book, and we talked earlier about these clouds that you kind of pieced together, what are the clouds that you connected in order to produce this book?

• 1:10:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, well, a number, a number of clouds. A love of crime fiction, that's and that just sort of vibe, that idea that I sort of love a puzzle. And I think so just that's that kind of thing of that. That's an itch. That's kind of thing I would, I would, I would like to do it. Then I had an idea about a former civil servant putting off a massive bank heist. And there was a former civil servant who who worked in a very boring job in the civil service, but it was so boring that people assumed that he was a spy, because no one's job can be that boring. So you work in Whitehall, I bet you're a spy. And he wasn't, he was just a logistics guy. And so I had that idea.

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  And I'd had it for ages, just this older guy had got this plan that he wanted to to pull off. And then my mum lives in a retirement community, a retirement village down in Sussex. And I was just down there, just looking around. I think I said, well, this would be an amazing place for a murder, you know, like Agatha Christie-esque. And suddenly, those things have looked, you want to write a book, and you had the idea about that, the civil servant or sort of spy, you had this sort of big plan. And then you thought, oh, there's this, there's this place and this group of people, they're, they're all a bit older, and this place would be perfect for murder. And then in that community, they have every day is all sorts of different clubs, this French Conversation Club on a Tuesday, you know, Wednesday, Art History. And literally, the name Thursday Murder Club came into my head,

• 1:12:02Speaker 00

  which is another cloud. All the clouds come together, they go into your brain, and you just think, bum, okay, let's start tomorrow. Because when the clouds come together in the right way, when the things connect together in the right way, you sort of It's interesting, you sort of, you kind of press your foot down to see if it holds. It's like, it's like a sort of plank of wood has suddenly appeared underneath you, or like a little rope bridge has appeared. And you sort of tread on the first plank of wood, you think, oh, that's quite solid, that plank of wood. And then you step on the next one, you think, oh, that's solid, and you step on the next one. And most ideas by the third or fourth plank, you, your foot goes through, you think, oh yeah, of course I can't do that because X, Y, Z. But sometimes, and you'll have experienced this, sometimes you keep walking along the planks of wood. And you're like, I mean, these are, these are solid all the way to the other side.

• 1:12:46Speaker 00

  It feels like I'm going to walk across this bridge, you know, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna take the chance, I'm gonna walk across this bridge. And, you know, that, that's, that, that's what happened really, and that's, that's how, and that also is how I experience new ideas and creativity, is that, that idea of you just try and put a bit of weight on them and it holds, you put a bit more weight and it holds. And, you know, if it keeps holding, then it's, it's worth persevering with.

• 1:13:06Steven Bartlett?

  I've, I've been through a really interesting journey with some of my ideas where I've thought of an idea, tested the planks, all very solid. I've got very close to doing it, and then my gut has just gone, don't do it because of, like, you know, and I and then I've had, obviously, as I said, many other ideas where I've had an idea, the wake up the next day, I think, oh God, put that on the shelf. And it's funny, you know, it's funny how you can go on a, quite an emotional journey, a conviction journey with an idea. And at the very last minute, you can go, do you know, something's just not right here.

• 1:13:34Speaker 00

  But I tell you, the other reason for that, I think, is because you've, because you have walked the walk and you've, you've built businesses and, you know, you know what it takes. You also sort of know if you press the green light on an idea, there's a huge amount of work ahead of you and responsibility. And you, sometimes you just think, I am not prepared to do that. There's not enough upside in this for me creatively, or whatever it is for me to do it. And that's the same, I know, for example, that idea, like a novel, I knew two years before I wanted to write it, but I just didn't, I knew, I didn't have the, I knew what it would take. And with this social media idea, I know at the moment. It would be all consuming and that's not where I am.

• 1:14:12Steven Bartlett?

  You nailed it. That's exactly what what happens. I get right to the point of pressing the button. And then I'm staring the cost in its face, the cost I've known so well. This thought of, okay, this is going to be five years and everything, which, and when I think of costs now, I think, okay, that means my relationship with my partner is going to get significantly worse. My relationship with my friends is going to get worse. All my businesses are going to see less of me. And is that really worth it? And what is the upside there?

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's exactly that. But again, that's not something you worry about at twenty one. At twenty one, you just think, yeah, great, bring it on. Bring it on. And now you, you know, you have the luxury of, you know, you, and that's the thing about having ten ideas. Sooner or later, one will come along. You just think, hold on, I really like it. It feels monetizable. It's not going to take up a massive amount of my time because of the way it's structured. And, you know, my, my, my relationship will, will, will survive and my friendship will survive. And I've still got this thing that I'm going to love. And you just, you just have to sit and wait for that idea to come along because, you know, you can't. No one wants, no one wants to be that guy who's working twenty four hours a day their whole life because it's honestly, the truth is, it's not that hard to succeed if you're willing to.

• 1:15:14Speaker 00

  You know, do everything and to work twenty four hours, you know, it's not, it's doable with an idea and hard work, but that's not, that's not how your life should be.

• 1:15:23Steven Bartlett?

  So the success of this book, you know, there's, there's, there's a monetary element to it. You, you don't have an expensive taste. So that's not really moved you much. There's the, the kind of validation of your own create. Singular creative vision, which has been validated sincerely. How has it impacted your happiness at all?

• 1:15:38Speaker 00

  I think, do you know what? I think it's, I think it's a reflection of my happiness rather, rather than a sort of a source of my happiness. I think it's a book that I have only been able to write from a happy place and from a place where I feel comfortable with my demons and comfortable with myself. And, uh. You know, I think it comes from that. So, you know, the characters, uh, the four main characters, all of whom are sort of quadrants of my own brain. I think you can tell that I love those characters and they love each other. And that's probably not something I could have written ten, fifteen years ago. That comes from happiness or it comes from, it comes from self-acceptance. You know, it comes from, I, I am, there's bits of myself, I'm very prepared to sort of put out there, uh, to entertain and to, you know.

• 1:16:23Speaker 00

  So I think I think it's I think it comes from happiness rather than being the source of it. Obviously, it brings me an enormous amount of joy and it's a load of fun and it's fun that it's a hit in other countries. So you get to go abroad and, you know, talk to them about it and, you know, that's fun. But yeah, and you know, in this, but the third one, there's, you know, there's, there's, there's lots of, there's, there's lots of love there and I'm getting married this year. And so it's all little things where you just think the books, listen, they're crime stories. There's murders and that, you know, there's, you know, there's red herrings and there's clues and all sorts of stuff. So that, that sort of, it's got that Agatha Christie thing. But the spirit of the book is hopefully a spirit that can, that can only come from having, you know, having found some happiness with yourself.

• 1:17:07Steven Bartlett?

  What, what is happiness to you? Because it's such a, it's such a small, simple word to describe so much.

• 1:17:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's a really tricky one. And the key thing is, is to know that you can't be happy all the time. You know, it's not like a kind of, you wake up every morning with a huge smile on your face, you know, there's still going to be parking tickets, you know, and the drains are still going to be blocked, you know, and there's still, you know, there's just, there's always going to be trouble. I think it's a, I think it's a, am I, am I content with myself? Am I, when I sort of close the door and I'm with either my partner or by myself, do I feel contentment? Do I feel there's a nagging, I think I've had years and most people do have, just there's nagging questions all the time. It's just something or something's not right, or am I in the right place? Or, and just that feeling that, no, hold on, I think, I think

• 1:17:56Speaker 00

  I'm in the right place, which I think you have when you're a really little child. And I think probably we lose over the years and it's very, very lucky. And yeah, you have to fight to regain that, which is, I feel happy and safe and secure and that I'm in the right place.

• 1:18:11Steven Bartlett?

  Are there any questions still?

• 1:18:13Speaker 00

  Oh, goodness. Yeah, of course there are. I mean, my one, you know, I want, I've always, as I say, because I don't see so well and because I'm tall, I've always been an observer of life. I've always been an outsider, right? I've never really got my hands dirty is the truth. And, you know, I see. I see the problems of the world and I, you know, I, I, I try and help financially and all that kind of stuff. I try and do good things. You know, I've never really got my hands dirty. And I think probably in the next decade, I should get my hands dirty a little bit. You know, just helping and, you know, making people's lives a little bit easier. That's the thing. And that's the thing I've always been frightened of. Well, because, because, you know, I've, I've, I never really took part in life quite so much as other people because of my height and because of my eyesight and because of

• 1:18:57Speaker 00

  all of those things. I always felt I needed to be on the sidelines and I needed to just commentate. And I've been very really happy doing that. By the way, I'm an introvert. I love, I love, I love to do it. But I do think you have a responsibility to leave the world a better place than you found it. Listen, there's not much point to us being here. But if we've got anything, it's to do that. It's to sort of say, well, look, for whatever reason I was put on this earth, you know, the one thing I can do is try and leave it in a better state. And so that, that's, I think, my, the, the question for the next 10, 20 years, that sort of service, what can I do? How can I help?

• 1:19:29Steven Bartlett?

  What about any personal questions you have about yourself and your, your, you know, you, you've talked a lot about not feeling, especially when you were younger, not feeling like you were right for the world or that you fit in the world. Do you have any of those personal questions left remaining?

• 1:19:42Speaker 00

  No, I, I think, you know, I do think that I'm probably not quite fit and right for the world, but I think lots of us do. I think that's the, that's the thing, you know, the world is a, it's a weird place. I mean, it's weird that we're here, right? I mean, it's odd, right? It's peculiar. I mean, it doesn't make it, it makes no sense. We can look for a higher purpose if we want, and that's great. But even with that, it's weird, right? And it's weird that we have this civilization. It's weird that we have this consciousness. It's weird that we're millions and billions of people around the globe or, you know, in different countries or thinking slightly different things with slightly different consciousnesses. It's weird, you know, it's, it, life makes no sense. And so the key is to stop trying to find the answer to, to, to what is life.

• 1:20:26Speaker 00

  That's not something you're ever going to find. And, and, and I think the question is, is, is how can I, you know, how can I help? Either how can I help if you find yourself in a position of power? Or how can I ask for help if you find yourself in a position where you don't have power? And those are two very difficult things to do.

• 1:20:42Steven Bartlett?

  These are questions that I, I think could only come from an introvert.

• 1:20:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's, I think, I think that's probably, I think I'm quite an alpha introvert. I'll say that. But yeah, listen, I, I, I love going home and shutting the door. That's my favorite thing.

• 1:20:57Steven Bartlett?

  Family at home, two kids.

• 1:20:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, they're not at home anymore.

• 1:21:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, they're early twenties.

• 1:21:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, twenty four and twenty two.

• 1:21:04Steven Bartlett?

  Wow.

• 1:21:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, crazy, right?

• 1:21:06Steven Bartlett?

  Do you ever worry that because of that, what happened with your father, that you're, you talked about your, your first marriage didn't work out? Do you ever have concerns or worries? Like, because I often wondered when we've had like somewhat dysfunctional homes, how we then

• 1:21:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:21Steven Bartlett?

  either continue the cycle, or sometimes it seems that people go very much the opposite way and really put measures in place to make sure they are the exact opposite, the antithesis of the experience they had. Have you found yourself reacting when, you know, you became a dad yourself?

• 1:21:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, listen, I, I, I obviously, I, I did the same thing my dad did, so I, I carried on the circle, but with the intention of breaking the cycle, and that's the point. I mean, listen, our intentions are one thing, what actually happens is something else. And again, because I think I was on a fault line, I think anything I'd chosen to do in my twenties would have collapsed, you know? But, you know, I have a relationship with my kids that I didn't have with my father and they're, I love them and they're hilarious and they're brilliant and I love what they do for a living. And that's all wonderful. Yeah, you can never, you can, you can be held prisoner by trying to fix the sins of your childhood, is the truth. Because here's the truth, you, you're never going to fix them, right? They're not, you're not going to fix them.

• 1:22:18Speaker 00

  You know, you, you need to build something for yourself. And I think by sort of thinking, no, I want a family because I wasn't able to fix mine. You know, so I'm going to make sure that this next generation, I fix it in the next generation. And of course, it's doomed to failure. You know, you're not going to, you're not going to create the thing you wanted to create, I think. So, yeah, you just have to, you just have to, you know, whatever happened to you and whatever. You're trying to prove you sort you sort of have to just you have to kind of do something for yourself, not not to react against other people, I think.

• 1:22:55Steven Bartlett?

  Not in a search for justice or?

• 1:22:57Speaker 00

  But of course you search for justice and I might my, you know, I was, of course I searched for justice and and yeah, and I was such I was certainly to to fix things and I, you know, I was not able to do either and neither would I ever be able to, but but in order to try and do it, yeah, I, you know, I I made my own mistakes.

• 1:23:14Steven Bartlett?

  You're getting married this year?

• 1:23:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:15Steven Bartlett?

  December?

• 1:23:16Speaker 00

  December, yeah. It's exciting, isn't it? For me, I mean, let's say for you, I know it's not, you're not that fussed.

• 1:23:21Steven Bartlett?

  No, it was nice to it was nice to read read that you're getting married this year. Um, I I've been thinking a lot lately, been talking to all my best friends about this idea of like one partner for life.

• 1:23:30Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:23:30Steven Bartlett?

  And I'm going back and forward, I'll be honest with you, because I'm here to be honest. I was on, you know, I've got a girlfriend, she's up to date, but I was on, I was on, don't tell her this, I was on.

• 1:23:39Speaker 00

  She might listen, yeah.

• 1:23:40Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, she probably will, but she, I'm, I'd say the same thing.

• 1:23:43Speaker 00

  She's not listening, honestly, she can listen to you all day.

• 1:23:45Steven Bartlett?

  I don't, I think there's so many podcasts, I don't know if she actually listens to them, so, because we record for so long. I was on Google this weekend looking at chimpanzees mating patterns, because I'm trying to figure out, I'm trying to come to my own.

• 1:23:58Speaker 00

  This is great, listen, I hope she looks at Google history thinking, wow, chimpanzee mating patterns, this guy loves me.

• 1:24:06Steven Bartlett?

  I'm trying to figure out if, because they've got like ninety nine percent the same DNA as us, if they stick around with the same partner forever, or if they mate within groups.

• 1:24:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:15Steven Bartlett?

  What's your take on this? I know this is such an obscure question to ask, what's your take on whether we're meant to be with one person for the rest of our lives?

• 1:24:22Speaker 00

  Listen, I'm I'm sure some people are not meant to be with one person, but it's very, very hard to do that and not hurt people. And so if you decide, if you genuinely decide, I am not made for that, right? Enough of this, human beings aren't monogamous, right? Forget that, because lots of us are, right? So forget it, right? If you're not made for it, if you don't want to be monogamous, right? Take responsibility for that. And taking responsibility for that means not hurting other people. And it means not being in a relationship with someone who thinks that that is a prospect or a possibility. And an awful lot of people take that get out thing of, I just don't think, is it natural? I don't think it's natural and. If you think it, fine, right? Don't impose it on everyone else.

• 1:25:08Speaker 00

  Don't impose it on the women you're with. Don't impose it on partners, you know? Let them be who they wanna be, because it really suits a lot of people very, very well. I'm in this relationship now that I pray with all my heart lasts forever. I'm absolutely certain it will, because we're made for each other, completely made for each other. And lots of other people at home will tell you that as well. And lots of people say they're in the wrong relationship, but don't universalize it. Don't say, oh, listen, everyone should just chill out, you know? Like, we should, we will have multiple partners. It's just, it's the natural way. Listen, I've been Googling chimpanzees. Listen, it's cool. You know, that's all fine, but it's you, right? It's your responsibility. And if you're not ready to do it, okay? You've got to stop wasting people's time.

• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  And that's when you are ready to do it, you'll be like, okay, this is, I mean, my heart was so, was so ready and open when I met Ingrid, my partner, and hers was as well. You know, we both had our misadventures. That's the truth, you know, we really have. And, but we absolutely were both ready. And, you know, perhaps you're not ready to be monogamous at certain ages, you know? Perhaps you're not, but you have got to stop putting it on other people and stop putting it on chimpanzees. And just say, what am I, what am I prepared to do? And perhaps there's compromise, you know? Perhaps there is sacrifice. Perhaps you, perhaps that's something that, you know, you'll measure against other things in the, in the, you know? And, and, and you'll feel that you don't wanna sacrifice and don't wanna compromise.

• 1:26:35Speaker 00

  But don't for a single second say, as human nature, it's not, it's you making a definitive decision at a definitive time in your life.

• 1:26:42Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it's, it's, that's such good advice, and I think I needed to hear that. But part of it is because, and I've said this in the last two episodes or so, as it's been front of mind for me, is seeing of my close six best friends, total failure in relationships over and over again. And me, me being earlier in, in that and going, why, why are 50% of these things breaking? If I'd gone to a shop and bought a TV and the guy said, oh, by the way, there's a 50% chance that's not gonna last. Probably wouldn't have bought the TV.

• 1:27:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, but at the same time, you spend years coming up with creative ideas and you know 50% of them will fail, but you do them anyway.

• 1:27:14Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm, true.

• 1:27:15Speaker 00

  You know, it's not a TV, you know, it's a, it's a life and actually fifty percent, that's not the worst bet in the world. Obviously, what fifty percent chance of lifelong happiness? I mean, you sort of, you'd, you'd take that bet, wouldn't you? But also, you know.

• 1:27:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:29Speaker 00

  You know, you know, by and large, you know, so the, the, the odds can swing in your favor. And it's, you know, I always said the best dating thing anyone ever said to me, and it's true for politicians and all sorts of things. They say literally the first date is when people tell you who they are. And then everything after that is backpedaling. So on your first date with your partner, you would have told her who you were. And what you want from life and where you want to be. And ever since then, you've been backpedaling or saying, oh, actually, no, actually, now I think about it. I want this, but you know, listen, listen to what someone told you on the first date, you know, that's who they are and that's what they want.

• 1:27:58Steven Bartlett?

  Well, other than the storylines and the narrative and everything that's in this book, what at the very fundamental level? Do you, do you hope that this particular book, the third, the third installment is doing for the reader at a very fundamental?

• 1:28:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:13Steven Bartlett?

  Level?

• 1:28:14Speaker 00

  Well, you know, my job is always entertainment, you know, that's my thing. And in this book. Honestly, it's the very act of, of, of starting the next chapter. That's, that's, that's what, that's what I aim for. You know, you finish one chapter, you think I have, I've got to read the next one. I want people to start a long plane journey thinking, oh, God, I've got eight hours. And at the end of it going, oh, my God, that's great. I got to read that whole book. You know, I want people at night to go and just read one more chapter. I just want to read one more chapter. And I want people at the end just to go, you know what? That was a thumping good read, you know, that really, really entertained me.

• 1:28:48Speaker 00

  I'm gonna tell my friends about it. That's the thing you notice about, I mean, it's so true in your business, but in books as well. Everything is after the first little initial flush, everything is word of mouth.

• 1:28:58Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:58Speaker 00

  Everything, you know, and these, but it's like people telling people, telling people, telling people. And if you've got the right product, then, you know, it spreads because people tell their friends. But I want to, all I want to do is entertain people, you know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not going to be, you know, Shakespeare. You know, I want to give people a great read that entertains them, that makes them laugh, that makes them cry. I want them to try and work out who the murderer is, you know, that's what I want their life, their lives to be. Minusculely improved by having read the book.

• 1:29:31Steven Bartlett?

  Richard, as you know, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest.

• 1:29:37Speaker 00

  Great.

• 1:29:38Steven Bartlett?

  And I only get to see it when we open the book. So here we go.

• 1:29:48Steven Bartlett?

  What was the most valuable lesson you've learnt in the last year? And why?

• 1:29:55Speaker 00

  Oh, who's that question from?

• 1:29:57Steven Bartlett?

  Can't tell you. That's part of the mystery.

• 1:29:59Speaker 00

  Oh, that's fun. What's the most valuable lesson I learnt in the last year? Gosh, that's a good question. I think that. I'm talking about my, my, my, my kids. My, my, my son was working at Wagamama and hated it, hated it. It wasn't well treated, is my view. Really didn't enjoy it, but he's a grafter. And he's now working at a, at a computer games museum, which is like so far up his street. It's amazing. And I think the lesson that I've learnt is I should have said to him two months before he quit, you should just quit. This is not, do you know what? This is not making you happy. They're not looking after you. This is not you, you know?

• 1:30:41Speaker 00

  And I know working hard is important, but you have got to quit and go and do something else is the truth. And I think if you're not being looked after and you're not enjoying yourself and you don't see this as a path to riches, you're allowed to just say, I need to find a workplace where I'm respected, which is what he's done now.

• 1:30:59Steven Bartlett?

  Richard, thank you. Thank you for your time and thank you for, you know, you've done so many amazing things in your career, especially on, you know, TV for the first sort of 20, 20, 30 years of your career. But writing a book that has touched so many people in such a profound way that is in every corner of the world, that you wrote yourself, as you've said, it takes word of mouth to make a book reach these heights. And that in and of itself is a testament of how amazing, profound, resonant these books are on so many levels. So it's an inspiration to me, you know, I was, I got so, because I'm writing a book at the moment with Penguin, understanding especially the creative, the creative journey, how you write, where you write, the discipline, that it's also excruciatingly painful to you. And you describe it as a marathon, has inspired me so much.

• 1:31:42Steven Bartlett?

  And there's something really, really special, I think, in throughout this book, but also just the way that you create in trusting yourself.

• 1:31:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:51Steven Bartlett?

  And really in building anything, it's like what you said earlier about. Make something that you would love. Yeah. Sometimes in my life, I've not done that. And it's, and it's never gone well. Never works, right? And that's really sort of made me reorientate myself towards focusing on that, that true alignment in my creativity, in what I'm building and in my work. So thank you for that. I, I think people are going to absolutely love this book. Well, I know that for a fact, to be honest. And I hope to be back here with you someday and have, continue this conversation. Thanks, Stephen. My pleasure.