From Army Intel in Iraq to CSO of Coinbase | Philip Martin | Ep. 398

Philip Martin is a former U. S. Army counterintelligence officer who spent years hunting threats and protecting forces in Iraq before transitioning into the private sector. He now serves as Chief Security Officer at Coinbase, where he applies military tradecraft to securing one of the world’s largest crypto platforms against digital and physical threats. Today's Sponsors: Blue Chew ⬇️ https://bluechew.com/ Get 10% off your first month of BlueChew Gold with code "HOUSECALL" GhostBed⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 25% off! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ PRE ORDER JACK'S NEW BOOK "THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN" ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ https://a.co/d/0eOl8czU Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 Start 25:17 The No-Win Job of Catching Spies 26:21 Finding Targets Without Addresses 43:06 OpSec Failures and Kidnapping Risk 45:22 What Palantir Actually Does 59:29 Crypto and Economic Freedom 1:10:06 Can Crypto Replace the Dollar? 1:12:26 Inside Coinbase Security 1:26:00 Southeast Asia Scam Compounds 1:27:32 How to Stop Scams: Education First Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

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• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:57Jack Murphy?

  Hey everyone, I want to tell you about my new novel, The Most Dangerous Man, out in June. It is a novel about a regimental reconnaissance company soldier who gets kidnapped while he's on a mission to West Africa. And when he wakes up, he finds that he is now being hunted for sport by a group of tech billionaires through the wilds of West Africa. This book is based on stories that I heard over the years about safari guides taking wealthy clients hunting for poachers on game reserves in Africa. I took that and I took a century-old short story, The Most Dangerous Game, and modernized it. And the product is this book, which I think will feel contemporary and resonate with

• 1:41Jack Murphy?

  audiences today. Thank you and please check it out.

• 1:59Speaker 03

  The Team House with your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park.

• 2:12Jack Murphy?

  94 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with our guest tonight, Philip Martin. He served in Army Counterintelligence with deployments to Iraq and a few other places around the world. And he is currently the Chief Security Officer at Coinbase, which is a crypto company, crypto wallet company?

• 2:30Speaker 04

  Crypto company.

• 2:30Jack Murphy?

  Crypto company. And we'll get into all of that in this interview. Philip, thank you for joining us.

• 2:35Speaker 04

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:36Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, absolutely, man. So, you know, the first question I always ask people is about their origin story. And yours is a little interesting. Like, tell us how you kind of grew up and what that path was that took you towards the Army eventually.

• 2:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, sure. So I've, I mean, I think for me, a fairly unique story of how I got here. So I was, before I ever went in the military, I was a software engineer. You know, I was that nerd in my parents' basement. Our group in Northern California went to high basements. It was a metaphorical basement. But it was a basement nonetheless. And taught my stuff to code. You know, loved everything about computers and the internet and all of it. Ended up, you know, starting a few small businesses in high school, went to college, got super bored, dropped out, joined a startup. And then 9/11 happened. And there's this confluence

• 3:29Speaker 04

  of me being pretty burned out with the, with, you know, what was it, the time, sort of that, that just post.com bust era. And then, you know, attack on our country. And there's a bunch of family history there. I didn't mention this when we were talking before, but you know, with the exception of my dad, who's a minister, there's like, the entire history of my, of my family is involved in service in some way, shape or form, right? Both my grandparents were in World War II. And, you know, my mom got into genealogy at one point, and she went like, full ham.

• 4:09Speaker 04

  Uh, but we can go back. There was a, we weren't called the Martins at the time, but there was a Martin in the Revolutionary War and every, every major conflict since. So, it was, it was something I, I thought, I thought long and hard about. Like this is, this is an opportunity for me to do something that I might not ever get a chance to do again.

• 4:25Jack Murphy?

  And the, you know, you mentioned the sort of tail end of the, the dot com era. Like this is like pretty well before social media and all that stuff comes around. So it was like, was it, were you working with like the Netscapes and the Yahoos and?

• 4:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I actually, I, I worked at Netscape briefly.

• 4:42Jack Murphy?

  You did?

• 4:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, Netscape Net Center. Yep. I, I.

• 4:45Jack Murphy?

  Only people our age even know what that means.

• 4:47Speaker 04

  They even know there, right? I actually interviewed at Yahoo back when it was still Yahoo. Um, so yeah, it was a fascinating time to be in the valley for sure.

• 4:55Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Yeah. Exciting times too, right?

• 4:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. I, I, I took down Netscape Net Center by accident for a good five minutes at one point.

• 5:02Jack Murphy?

  Oh, that was you?

• 5:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yep. That was me. That was me. My fault.

• 5:05Jack Murphy?

  And what was kind of your role? Were you a coder or?

• 5:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, I was a software engineer.

• 5:09Jack Murphy?

  Okay. So yeah, you were in the thick of it.

• 5:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. It was a lot of fun, right? Like, um, you know, I got, I got to participate in like a huge boom cycle in the valley. And, you know, see a lot of stuff, learn a lot of lessons.

• 5:23Speaker 04

  That are, that are, that have served me well, right? Over the course of my career.

• 5:26Jack Murphy?

  That's really cool. Um, so you get burned out on this, uh, in being a software engineer. Uh, nine 11 happens.

• 5:37Jack Murphy?

  What was kind of like your approach? Like where did, where did you go first?

• 5:40Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, so I went, I went army first. It was the only thing I really ever considered.

• 5:48Speaker 04

  I'll, I'll, I'll tell you my edible crayon story later.

• 5:50Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 5:51Speaker 04

  About my, my Marine Corps colleague at Coinbase, but, um, uh, yeah, army is all, all I really ever considered. And, you know, went into the recruiting station, right? It's like, I want to join. Um, I went through the guard rather than go, uh, full active duty. And it was in my mind, maybe I want to do it later. I never ended up going, you know, full active duty, but, um, looked around, I'm like, I don't want to do anything that has to do with computers. I'm sort of over that, you know, did my ASVAB, uh, all that sort of preliminary testing. Like, you know, you can sort of do what you want. So what do you want to do? And I was like, this counterintelligence thing looks interesting. It's like, and they're like, yeah, it's about people, which is like half true and like half not true. And it's complicated, right?

• 6:35Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 6:36Speaker 04

  But it was the best choice I think I could have ever made. Loved every second of it. As I, as I then sort of went in and, you know, did basic Fort Leonard Wood. And then down into Fort Wachukka for, for A I T and then language school for Arabic.

• 6:55Speaker 04

  It was a long time. It was like, it's like a two-year training pipeline.

• 6:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, D L I alone is like a year, right?

• 7:00Speaker 04

  Year and a half for.

• 7:01Jack Murphy?

  Year and a half for Arabic?

• 7:03Speaker 04

  For the cat four languages.

• 7:04Jack Murphy?

  And you told me before you were a three, three.

• 7:07Speaker 04

  Uh, I, I maxed out at a three, three. I graduated D L I as like a two, two plus, something like that.

• 7:11Jack Murphy?

  That's super good.

• 7:12Speaker 04

  And then, uh, after my deployment to Iraq where I spoke Arabic a lot.

• 7:17Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 7:18Speaker 04

  I did another, I did, you know, my next annual test and I was a three, three. And the way they do these testing is like, there's one test that goes up to three, three. And there's another one that goes three plus, three plus up to five. So I maxed out the test that I took and then just actually never ended up taking the other test.

• 7:34Jack Murphy?

  So for what people listening don't understand, like being a three, three in your target language in the military is considered fluent.

• 7:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:42Jack Murphy?

  There might be some like technical jargon and stuff you might not know if you're a three, three, but you're pretty dialed in.

• 7:47Speaker 04

  So three, three, I believe the rubric is you're considered a high school graduate. You're, you were fluent to the equivalent of a high school graduate and that, in that. And like a five, five, which is the max the scale goes to, you are, you were, uh, the equivalent of a college educated professional.

• 8:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. You're writing poetry in Arabic.

• 8:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, correct.

• 8:06Jack Murphy?

  I, and after you finished D L I, um, what is the training course for a counterintelligence agent?

• 8:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. So it's called something different now. It's called C I S A C.

• 8:17Speaker 04

  The C I Special Agent Course. And, uh, it is a, what was the time that I did it? A 22 week, if I recall correctly, maybe it was 26, 28, somewhere in there. 20 something week training course, uh, down on Fort Wachukka, Arizona, um, which is about as far south as you can go in Arizona and not be in Mexico.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  And, um, you know, it's really about getting a bunch of kids, right? You know, cause it's, uh, it's mostly 19, 20, 21 year olds that are, that are going in there.

• 8:53Speaker 04

  To understand a little bit about how the army works and a lot about how espionage work, right? How and why people choose to betray their country, how and why we investigate them. And then sort of the broader universe of CI as well, because like a lot of people think about CI and you think about like, I don't know, maybe like NCIS.

• 9:16Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 9:17Speaker 04

  Right? Where they're like.

• 9:18Jack Murphy?

  It's not CID.

• 9:19Speaker 04

  Right.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  And like, there's this huge world of CI that includes things like, I don't know, TSCM, right? Which is like bug sweeping and technical sort of countermeasures. And there's a bunch of cyber stuff, right? Investigations and forensics, there's human related stuff, right? For force protection operations, there's.

• 9:39Jack Murphy?

  There's like disinformation campaigns around sensitive secrets, right?

• 9:42Speaker 04

  Exactly right, right? Because like, people ask me all the time, like, what does, what does CI do? Like, what do you guys do, right? We know what intelligence does. And I say, well, look, if intelligence is about you defining like your view of your adversary, CI is about you defining your adversary's view of you.

• 10:00Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 10:00Speaker 04

  Right? In a way that's advantageous to you.

• 10:03Jack Murphy?

  And it's maybe worth mentioning to the viewers, you know, you mentioned it briefly. It's called the Special Agent Course. CI guys are also badged special agents.

• 10:15Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 10:15Jack Murphy?

  You want to explain that distinction to folks?

• 10:18Speaker 04

  So, I mean, it's, it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of nuance. It's actually even more nuanced than that because not all CI guys are, are like the go to FLETC, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

• 10:32Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 10:33Speaker 04

  Some of us do, but not, not everyone does. And so, like, you're, if you don't go to FLETC, you're not a full federal agent with the rest of the powers. Right? But you're a badge of confidential CI agent, so you could, you, you do have a lot of law enforcement adjacent sort of abilities, especially on army reservations. But like, for example, as like a normal, everyday CI agent, or at least this is true when I was in, I couldn't arrest somebody. I got the MPs do it, but I couldn't do it directly the way I could if like, you know, you'd gone to Fletzey and were in a billet that that that had those powers with you.

• 11:14Speaker 04

  But that badge credentials gave you a lot more access and a lot more ability to sort of get things done than you would otherwise.

• 11:22Jack Murphy?

  And the the arrest power is because part of the job field is you're a spy catcher?

• 11:27Speaker 04

  Yep, correct. Part of the job field, in fact, I mean, the core of the job field really is is about, hopefully preventing the loss of national intelligence secrets, but but at the very least, you know, detecting responding.

• 11:43Jack Murphy?

  So you're in the California National Guard qualified as a counterintelligence special agent. Tell us about the run up to your first deployment. And was that something you volunteered for?

• 11:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:56Jack Murphy?

  Or did your whole unit go?

• 11:57Speaker 04

  Oh, no, that was something I individually volunteered for as soon as I could after I got out of DLI. I think it was like, I don't know, three, four months tops after I got out of DLI before I was sort of in the run up to that deployment. So I deployed with a, actually a Louisiana Guard Battalion, the 415th. I want to say out of Baton Rouge, although if I'm wrong, they're going to murder me. They'll just like all come up and whatever.

• 12:22Jack Murphy?

  Baseball bats and axles.

• 12:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, correct. And delicious food. And so I joined them over in Fort Dix, New Jersey for our, so our workup. And I mean, it was interesting that I always think like, some of that stuff feels like, you know, someone saw a movie about a combat deployment and designed the workup because of that. Some of it feels very relevant, right? So it's always this weird, this weird mishmash.

• 12:55Jack Murphy?

  Well, you mean like some of the training felt like anochronistic?

• 12:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:00Jack Murphy?

  Like, why are we entering and clearing a trench line?

• 13:02Speaker 04

  Correct. Yes, that's a good example. Or, you know, we did lots of like, you know, scenario role playing stuff. There was nothing like what we actually encountered in country. And like, maybe, maybe it was like, you know, because I was, I was there, you know, five, five to seven. And so maybe it was more applicable. Back in 2002, or I guess we weren't there in 2, but like 2003, right during during the initial invasion.

• 13:27Jack Murphy?

  You say you were there from five, you mean literally you were there from oh five to oh seven?

• 13:31Speaker 04

  Very tail end of oh five to the very, very beginning of oh seven.

• 13:35Jack Murphy?

  Okay, so like 14 months of it.

• 13:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, something like that, yeah.

• 13:38Jack Murphy?

  All right, so so tell us about, you know, deploying to Iraq and sort of where you were and what your job was.

• 13:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I was in a little spot called Bob Kalsu, which is right on the Sunni Shia divide in Iraq. So for those, for folks that don't know, Iraq is loosely, obviously it's not a sharp line, right? But loosely segregated, or again, was into a Sunni population and a Shia, the two different sects of Islam. And they didn't like mix a ton, but right on this line, they did. Because, you know, they were adjacent, similar communities, and there was always a lot of conflict.

• 14:17Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 14:18Speaker 04

  Around them because of that.

• 14:21Speaker 04

  It was also Iraq's very, a very tribal place, a lot of the Middle East is, is, Iraq's very, very tribally organized. And we were on the lines of a couple of different local tribes. So it was a very interesting, like, high conflict potential area to be in. And so we covered a pretty good chunk of that sort of central, south area of Iraq.

• 14:48Jack Murphy?

  And that was a particularly hot time.

• 14:50Speaker 04

  It was, it was. We got, you know, we took in direct fire a lot in the base. In fact, one of my, I'm sure we'll get into war stories, but I have a really, really proud story when we rolled up the local mortar, mortar cell that had been, you know, dropping, dropping mortars on the base every day, every other day. We were able to get intelligence on them, roll them up, and it just stopped. Like, talk about seeing impact from, from your work, right? We hit, we hit their little munitions cache. Right, got, you know, the little mortar primers, look like shotgun rounds, got all that, got their, got all that stuff, and it would just. Overnight.

• 15:33Jack Murphy?

  Well, yeah, let's let's jump into it. What? How did you go about, you know, dismantling that network? How did you develop the intelligence for that?

• 15:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:40Jack Murphy?

  Something like that?

• 15:41Speaker 04

  You know what's really interesting is a lot of intelligence to me is very serendipitous. Right? Um, and it's like, it's like, you know, luck is timing meets preparation, right? Is is one of the old sayings. I think it's sort of a similar thing in intelligence operations. But, you know, one of the things that that you have to do in that's in in a scenario like that is you have to get out there in the community and meet people and be like helpful and be a human and have conversations because, you know, most the vast majority of a population in a place like that just wants to live their life. They're not connected to an insurgency. They don't want to be connected to an insurgency. Their concerns are, is their local, you know, uh, livestock healthy?

• 16:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 04

  Right?

• 16:24Jack Murphy?

  And these guys are making problems.

• 16:25Speaker 04

  And this and making problems for us, making problems for them. They don't like it either, but they frequently feel they don't know how to go about it. They don't know who to talk to. They feel threatened if they might do it. And so it's creating those opportunities for someone to come to you and say, hey, like, I saw something weird. Or for someone to go to someone else and like, talk, right? Oh, God, that, you know, whoever he was, I saw him over there that that that at the time. It's super weird. I think they're doing something. And for that to make it way back, back to you, right, requires roots and the connection in the community. And so really, it was about talking to people, um, building relationships, being a reasonable person. Hey, their generator's broken. Let's go to all civil affairs. Can they get like, can they get something out here to help them out? Hey, there's, you

• 17:10Speaker 04

  know, there's a, there's, you know, some kid is sick. Hey, can, is there like a local medical assistance thing we can, we can engage with, building that goodwill. So we did that. Um, and all the time, right, we're taking indirect fire. And it's from these guys that would like, you know, pull up somewhere in this, in this, in the old Toyota van. Um, and, uh, they'd pop out, set the mortar up, pop off three or four rounds, throw it back in the van, run like hell. Right? They couldn't hit anything, right, reliably. But it was a big fob, so they hit something. Um, and, you know, most of the time it hit something somewhere unoccupied, somewhere in the base. Sometimes it would hit, it would

• 17:53Speaker 04

  hit close to home. There's one time when they hit right outside the chow hall an hour before lunch. Like, an hour later, there would have been a line of soldiers outside that, and they would have, they would have hurt a lot, a lot, a lot of people. And so we had been, you know, really, they had been a target for us for a while, right? How can we get lines on them? How do we, what are their ingress, egress routes? Like, where do we think they're staged? How can we build connections there? How can we find people that might know who these people are or where they're based? And we had developed a little bit of a, of a, uh, uh, of a targeting package on them for us and for our local. You know, at the time, it was four ID and a team from, I think it was the, the fifth group that was, that was there, uh, on FOB Kasu.

• 18:38Speaker 04

  And we knew their names, um, and we knew where they, in theory, lived, although they were never there. We'd hit their houses multiple times on like tips that, oh, he's back visiting his wife or whatever. And, I mean, you know, it's, it's in the middle of the night in Iraq, the sound of a Humvee carries quite a long way. Right? It is really hard to sneak up on someone like that, especially when they have connection in the community. And so we could just, we could, we had a really, really hard time nailing them down.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  Until, um, and the other thing you do in intelligence operations is you, is you, is you want to help people help you. Right? You're not just out there, um, you know, glad handing, saying hi. You're like, hey, and like, I'm, I'm glad we're able to help you. You know, we'd really love to help you by making this place safer and calmer. If you see any of these things, you know, we'd really love to, to know about them. You see someone, you know, messing around in an abandoned house, um, that you know, no one lives there. You see someone, whatever it was, and it was actually that one that caught us. This tip is someone that we had helped in a, a local village. Was driving, I forget why he was doing this, probably just to and from somewhere we were selling something or whatever.

• 19:51Speaker 04

  And he's like, I saw these guys, um, in a white van, um, in this house that no one lives in. It's like, it, it, it clearly, they had never finished building it, right? It had just been abandoned at some point. And they were digging.

• 20:06Speaker 04

  And like, you know, I kept driving and then I called you guys and like, you'd want to know, because this is the kind of thing you're interested in. Like, yes, it is. So, um, you know, we, we, we go to, uh, the platoon that covered that area and we're like, hey, we got this intelligence. Like, let's talk it through. Could be them, maybe it's not them, we don't know. And so, okay, great. We plan a raid. We go out there, I think it was the next day. No one's home, no one's anywhere around it, but we had brought a canine with us. And they had brought metal detectors, whole nine yards. So the canine starts going around the place and alerts in this little area, sort of beneath a tree where they had dragged some like palm fronds and whatever, you know. EUDs out there, they cleared the whole thing.

• 20:52Speaker 04

  And there's clearly been disturbed dirt, right, where they had dug. We went down after that. We discovered an old like,

• 21:01Speaker 04

  a couple of old ammo crates, like, you know, you come talking about like AK crates, basically, right? Pulled that out and it was their entire weapons cache. It was their mortars, it was their mortar primers, it was the mortar rounds, RPGs, whole nine yards.

• 21:20Jack Murphy?

  Oh, man, stole their toys.

• 21:21Speaker 04

  Stole their toys. Took them home, put them on the wall, actually. Not home, home, obviously, but you know, back to the, back to the, back to the house. And after that, the mortar attack stopped.

• 21:36Speaker 04

  This was like, maybe, maybe three or, no, this was like five months before we rotated out. We had five months of getting no indirect fire.

• 21:44Jack Murphy?

  That's pretty cool.

• 21:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:45Jack Murphy?

  I've heard stories about the Brits doing stuff like that to the IRA where they'd like replace the plastic explosives with like clay.

• 21:53Speaker 04

  I had this conversation with the platoon leader at the time. I'm like, guys, instead of taking this, hear me out.

• 21:58Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:59Speaker 04

  Can we like booby trap this?

• 22:01Jack Murphy?

  No, sir.

• 22:02Speaker 04

  Nope, nope, nope. How about we, how about we see if we can leave and like leave behind an observation team? Can we do that? No, we can't because what if something happens, resupply extraction, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like we hadn't planned for it, whatever. I'm like, fuck, I want to get these guys.

• 22:19Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. No, it would have made sense to put the snipers out there and wait until nightfall, see what happens.

• 22:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

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• 25:17Jack Murphy?

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• 27:20Jack Murphy?

  And I should also mention, so we've been talking about how you're a counterintelligence guy, but now in Iraq, you're very much in a human role, which was pretty common, I think, for CI guys when they got deployed to war.

• 27:33Speaker 04

  It was common then, and this is interesting because there weren't enough... So there's a whole different MOS, right? There's human intelligence collective, right? At the time, it was 97 Echo. They got renumbered after I left with the 35 series. But that's actually their job, right? They're supposed to be out there on the human intelligence teams doing the collection like this. There just weren't enough of them. And so they had pressed CI guys into doing this because it was skill-adjacent.

• 28:02Jack Murphy?

  Needs of the war, yeah.

• 28:03Speaker 04

  Right? And so a lot of CI guys in that time period ended up on the tactical human teams doing this work.

• 28:12Jack Murphy?

  Can you talk at all about some of the CI work that you did do during that timeframe? You know, you mentioned force protection was a big...

• 28:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, so CI has a bunch of different missions, right? Um, and I'll, I'll, I'll tell you, you know, a lot of this traditional CI work I did at the time was around like, like on base security, right? All the bases in Iraq had a huge local national workforce. Um, you know, they would, they would come and be part of, um, you know, maybe like a local market that was established. They'd be the people who were setting up the HESCOs and the, all this stuff. Like it was a huge local national workforce. Um, even bigger in Baghdad, right? That was where it was enormous. They were, they were doing all the trash collection and everything else. And, you know, pretty obviously, if you're an insurgent, one of the things you want is

• 29:04Speaker 04

  intelligence about, well, what are the Americans doing on their base? Right? Who's going there? Where are they? All, all this stuff is gold to you as an insurgent. When are they leaving? Call us when you see the, didn't you see this? And so a lot of the traditional CI work I did was, was, was around that, right? Was around, hey, um, I, I, I've seen this person, this local national, like on his phone a lot. Um, and they seem super interested in, or very commonly, hey, this, this, uh, this, this guy was asking me a lot of questions about where we go, where I'm from, what we do, all that stuff. And so it was about like, um, running investigations related to that, um, trying to figure out

• 29:47Speaker 04

  like, is this guy just a curious person who's, who's trying to sell this soldier a blanket? Or a, or a bootleg DVD and like, trying to start a conversation? Or is this actually an intelligence gathering operation? Right. Uh, that we need to be concerned about. Um, really hard to tell the difference, honestly, in, in, in that theater, but like, and it's, but it's still really important work. I remember there was one, one guy, um, who...

• 30:17Speaker 04

  So there's a soldier, I think it was a supply guy, and he comes to us and says like, hey, like, I think, I think I've seen something. Because we would go out and do briefings, right? Like, about counterintelligence, the indicators, if you see these things, whatever, come talk to us. I've seen this guy, he works in the mess hall, and like, I forget what it was exactly that he was doing, I think he was like, I think I've seen him like, pacing out the mess hall, right? Trying to figure out how long, how far from here, how far from there. And like, he's out there every day, doing this stuff. I'm like, very concerned. Like, I was very concerned about this. So I go over there, I interview him, the soldier's doing the report. Talk to him,

• 31:01Speaker 04

  like, you know, when, where, what, why, whole nine yards. And document the whole thing, go out there and like, watch this guy for a few days, like, what's he doing? In my opinion, he wasn't doing anything, he was taking a smoke break, right?

• 31:18Jack Murphy?

  He's just pacing around.

• 31:19Speaker 04

  He's just pacing around with a smoke break, right? But like, that's, unfortunately, that is, that is both the most annoying thing about CI, and it's where a lot of legitimate leads come from, these walk-ins.

• 31:34Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 31:34Speaker 04

  Right? And it's, it's just absolute hell to sort through all the wheat from the chaff, or the chaff from the wheat.

• 31:40Jack Murphy?

  And the double-edged sword there, of course, is, you know, if you're catching spies, it's like, well, why didn't you catch them sooner? What the fuck? But if you're not catching spies, or like, why aren't you catching spies?

• 31:50Speaker 04

  Correct. It's an impossible situation, right? Because you know, statistically, there's a spy. Statistically, someone in that population is doing something that's related espionage, right? So, yeah.

• 32:03Jack Murphy?

  And otherwise, it sounded like you were pretty busy over there, supporting 19th Group, 4th ID. Can you tell us about some of the other, like, you said you were outside the wire, like, it sounded like almost every day?

• 32:13Speaker 04

  Pretty close to every day. So, a lot of the work that we did with the guys that, with the, you know, the Infrastrains Special Forces, was we would... Uh, using uh, our sources, go out and help positively identify either the house that we were gonna hit, because there are no address, street addresses.

• 32:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 32:33Speaker 04

  Right, like.

• 32:34Jack Murphy?

  There aren't even numbers.

• 32:35Speaker 04

  Right. They're, they're barely even the street names.

• 32:37Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 32:37Speaker 04

  Right? Um, and so it's very easy to hit the wrong house. Very, very easy. Um, or positively identify the targets of, of the raid, right? Cause there's not necessarily a world where you have pictures of, of your target always. Especially in like these lower level situations where you're, you're trying to roll up a local, a local cell leader.

• 32:58Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, we, we brought the source in the Bakalava out on target a few times.

• 33:02Speaker 04

  Gloves, right, like, you know, change him into an American, into a, you know, American uniform, put the whole thing. Yeah, absolutely. Did a bunch of that. Um, eventually we transitioned to like, um, I don't know how much you were, uh, you did with like the IEDs and that stuff, but you know, the, the EFPs, right, that they were making? They would hide them in this expandable foam, right? To make, make them look like a rock.

• 33:29Jack Murphy?

  Oh, like spray foam?

• 33:30Speaker 04

  Right, right. Um, well, eventually, cause like, you know, taking a source out on a PID is incredibly dangerous to the source, right? It's, you try your best to make sure there's no identifying marks, but like, maybe they, they walk a certain way, or like, maybe they say a word that shouldn't, whatever, right? It's very easy to get a source burned that way. So we don't wanna do that. So we made these little, um, our own little rocks and we put these little IR blinkers in them. The little ones you have like a nine volt battery.

• 33:59Jack Murphy?

  Like IR lights?

• 34:00Speaker 04

  Little IR flasher. And the foam is, is open cell. It's, it's, it's open enough that you can, the rock will pulse in IR. And we just have them go and like, like drop the rock in front of the house we were supposed to hit. Um, so that we didn't have to, uh, have them come with us, or maybe, or if we did, they were way back and nowhere near the actual raid. And we'd like bring the people out one by one. You know, Humvee here, headlights on, going that way.

• 34:28Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 34:28Speaker 04

  Sourcing the Humvee, bring them up. Is this the person? Yes or no? Is this the person? Yes or no? Like, like al- almost zero chance of anyone identifying the source at that point.

• 34:37Jack Murphy?

  You know, as you're saying this reminds me of some other incidents where bringing the source out on target and they for the life of them cannot identify.

• 34:46Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 34:47Jack Murphy?

  Maybe they don't want to, maybe they don't know.

• 34:49Speaker 04

  Yep, they get scared.

• 34:50Jack Murphy?

  Trying to cash in, I don't, who knows?

• 34:52Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 34:53Jack Murphy?

  But.

• 34:53Speaker 04

  Man, I remember this one time, it wasn't exactly, it was different. We had geared up for a raid, it was, it was a whole infantry company going out.

• 35:03Jack Murphy?

  A big target.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  Big target, like local, I forget what they were, I forget who they actually, but the whole, the whole company was geared up, it's two o'clock in the morning and my source isn't there. Right? So like, we were, we were supposed to, to, to, to, um, he had, he had, uh, a specific way he was going to meet us, um, and, uh, he wasn't there. So I had this infantry company, like, they were, they were ready, right? Music was playing, they were ready to go. And I had to walk over there and tell them, like, we can't do this raid. Like, my guy's not here. We can't ID the house, we can't ID the target, like, we can't go out here. And so this infantry captain, right?

• 35:49Speaker 04

  I'm an E5 at the time, right? Infantry captain comes up to me and he says, where's your source live? We're gonna drive by and pick him up.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  Right? And my asshole puckers, right? I'm like, I'm like, I'm sorry, sir, we can't do that. We can't do that. And he's like, no, we're, we're gonna do it right now. We're gonna absolutely do this, we're gonna drive by your source's house, we're gonna pick him up, we're gonna go hit this target, because my guys are ready.

• 36:14Speaker 04

  And I told him, no, we can't do it, that's gonna endanger my source, gonna get, probably gonna get him killed.

• 36:21Speaker 04

  And eventually, uh, he, he drug the S2 out of bed and is like, make this guy tell me. And the S2, thank God, backed me up, is like, absolutely not. No way are we doing that. That is the opposite of how you run sources and handle sources. But I'll tell you what, I have never been more scared than I was in that moment.

• 36:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 36:42Jack Murphy?

  I mean, yeah, I mean, it's an interesting scenario because there's a tremendous amount of pressure on you to get them to yes, to get them on the X at this, at this point.

• 36:50Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 36:50Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Um, it's the same you hear from even like guys who are like Jags working in targeting cells. Like there's a tremendous amount of pressure to be like, yes, this strike is lawful.

• 37:00Speaker 04

  Yep, exactly.

• 37:01Jack Murphy?

  And you might have to stand up to your commander and be like, no, sir, you can't do that.

• 37:05Speaker 04

  Yep. And that is, that is never comfortable, especially at two o'clock in the morning with these guys like hyped to go.

• 37:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:14Jack Murphy?

  Have a can of dip in the little.

• 37:15Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:15Jack Murphy?

  Drinking, drinking ripits.

• 37:17Speaker 04

  Three, three ripits in the, in the, in the back of the Humvee. They're like.

• 37:21Jack Murphy?

  So did you ever run down that source and?

• 37:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, yep, yep. I forget what is, he had some excuse. I forget what it was. Um, but like.

• 37:32Jack Murphy?

  It was carpet shopping.

• 37:33Speaker 04

  But yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was a dumbass excuse and like, he was useful. So we kept working with him. Like he had good information. Um, but we never put ourselves in a situation again where we had to depend on him.

• 37:46Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 04

  Show up like that.

• 37:47Jack Murphy?

  Source reliability.

• 37:48Speaker 04

  Yep. Yep. Not good. Not good.

• 37:52Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. It's, I mean, do you ever feel like one part of your job is like being like a social worker?

• 37:57Speaker 04

  Oh, that's not, not even one part. And in CI, it's a huge part, especially if you're out there.

• 38:02Jack Murphy?

  Come on, buddy.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, correct. Like, hey, here's, it's not even a, it's a social worker, but it's also, you know, helping them understand why the thing that, that, that you want them to do is, is the good thing for them.

• 38:16Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 38:16Speaker 04

  Right. And sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, right? But like, it's still the thing you want them to do.

• 38:22Jack Murphy?

  And how did things kind of like change from early oh five to early oh seven? Did you see kind of like the AO change? The battle space change?

• 38:31Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um,

• 38:36Speaker 04

  you know, I think it calmed down. Um, over that time period.

• 38:43Jack Murphy?

  Is it the surge starting to kick in?

• 38:46Speaker 04

  I think the surge was like a little bit later than that.

• 38:49Jack Murphy?

  You may, you may be right.

• 38:50Speaker 04

  I think the surge was like eight or nine, somewhere in there.

• 38:52Jack Murphy?

  You may be, you may be right.

• 38:53Speaker 04

  Um, but like we had done.

• 38:58Speaker 04

  We'd done several big, not we, I was not involved, like several big operations. I think Second Fallujah was during that time period, if I recall correctly. Like a bunch of big operations in the AO. And it seems to me to be calming down a little bit, but I mean, these things are cyclical in my, in my opinion. So like, I don't know if it's actually true.

• 39:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, and sometimes it's, the frustrating thing is like, it can feel like you're being very successful.

• 39:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:29Jack Murphy?

  Like you're out there recruiting sources, you're hitting these targets, it feels like you're winning. And then you see how the work turns out, it's like, oh.

• 39:36Speaker 04

  Right, exactly. What was the?

• 39:38Jack Murphy?

  Actually.

• 39:38Speaker 04

  Right, right. Did it, did it actually make a difference?

• 39:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 39:42Speaker 04

  And you know, it's, it's, I'm sure some of it didn't, some of it didn't. It's the small wins to me.

• 39:46Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 39:47Speaker 04

  That stick around.

• 39:47Jack Murphy?

  You're, you're an E5 counterintelligence guy, like it's, they're all small wins. None of us are generals or?

• 39:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, none of us are generals, it's, but the things I look back and I'm like, yes, I did.

• 39:56Jack Murphy?

  That you're proud of.

• 39:57Speaker 04

  Difference are things like interrupting that mortar cell.

• 40:00Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:00Speaker 04

  Right? That could have, over the, over the next, and I don't, I don't even know how long, maybe they didn't get back operational. Right? I have no idea, but that almost certainly saved at least one life.

• 40:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, definitely.

• 40:15Jack Murphy?

  And then talk to us about like transitioning back home, you're in the guard, so like you're literally going back home, right?

• 40:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, yep. So in the guard, come back and you know, um, one of the good things about the guard is that you have the opportunity to sort of, to an extent, pick and choose where you engage the missions you go on. And so I went back, started working at Amazon.

• 40:38Jack Murphy?

  The mighty Zon.

• 40:39Speaker 04

  The mighty Zon, and you know, I'm, I'm a very happy Amazon customer. I, I, more so than I would probably care to admit. But I discovered, you know, after my experience in the military, it was just not satisfying. Right? The mission of Amazon, in my opinion at least, is to ship more boxes to more people faster. And that's, that's a real mission, it's important, right? It's about enabling people, logistics, it's about, and it does a bunch of good stuff, but it's not exciting to me. It doesn't sort of scratch.

• 41:12Jack Murphy?

  You're not a logistics guy.

• 41:14Speaker 04

  No, not a logistics, not, not a logistics guy. And so I, you know, continued, did some cool missions, some stuff in Uganda, some stuff in the Caribbean, mostly on sort of a force protection liaison, capacity,

• 41:34Speaker 04

  some other, other similar stuff, mostly in, in Africa, Middle East, a little bit.

• 41:41Speaker 04

  But also was, was, was discovering that like, hey, the military has actually changed me quite a bit in terms of like what I want, what my goals are and what's ultimately satisfying to me. And so a buddy of mine that I served with had gone, had also gotten out and had gone to work with Palantir.

• 42:00Speaker 04

  One day, as I'm sort of complaining about, about all of this, he tells me, look, come on, come over and interview. They're hiring some, some like cybersecurity people. You should, you should really think about it. So, um, so I did, I met the team. I was like, oh, wow. Like this feels like a mission, right? Bringing the warfighter,

• 42:23Speaker 04

  technology from Silicon Valley. And like, look, a bunch of stuff that's invented in Silicon Valley is not, is not useful, is experimental, is like vaporware, fickle to make it, whatever. That's, that's a real thing. But I had, I had worked with the systems that, that Palantir was replacing. And, and the first time I was able to log into the platform and be like, holy crap. Like, I wish I, I wish I had this when I was, when I was deployed. Just the, the ability to integrate query model, visualize information. Right? To associate things with each other that'd be hard to associate if you were trying to do it by hand. I'm, I was hopefully one of the last generations where when I, when I went through CI school,

• 43:07Speaker 04

  I learned like association diagram plotting by hand.

• 43:12Speaker 04

  We'd do link charts with like literal yarn and like the, the push, push pins and like, right?

• 43:21Speaker 04

  Which is bonkers in this day and age. And like, yes, we had, we had.

• 43:26Jack Murphy?

  Analyst notebook.

• 43:27Speaker 04

  Analyst notebook too. But it's just not good, right? It was not useful. It was not really fit for the mission. And especially on this day and age where information is so much more, uh, so much larger. But in any case, I, I saw, got really engaged by the mission, the product, the people. Um, and went over there and just had a great time.

• 43:47Jack Murphy?

  Um, yeah, before we get into Palantir, I just want to hit you up about, you know, Uganda, Jamaica, some of those other things that you did before leaving the military in 2012.

• 43:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:57Jack Murphy?

  Um, those are kind of, I don't want to say irregular, but I mean, interesting. You know, some parts of the world that you went to.

• 44:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I, I think, you know, one of the interesting missions for, for CI is, as you mentioned before, force protection, right? And so the things that we, you know, are asked to do, Uganda is a great example where the, the core mission was, uh, training local Ugandan forces in, um, air mobile and aerial resupply operations, right? I have no experience in any of that. Um, but we were also in sort of northern Uganda, um, uh, which, um, you know, far north Uganda is where a group called the LRA, Lord Resistance Army was active and probably, I don't know if they are still or not, but was at the time active.

• 44:44Speaker 04

  And so, you know, as we start, and there was a, there were a bunch of like, you know, Islamic extremist groups in that area broadly speaking of Africa. There's a lot of like ways that there could be non-mission risk to.

• 44:58Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 44:59Speaker 04

  Forces on the ground. And so, and so my job and the job of, of any CI guy in that context is to, you know, work with, uh, local nation, um, security forces, intelligence forces, um, as well as, uh, you know, use our own eyes and ears to figure out, um, build relationships with, you know, local community members, leaders, whatever it is to, you know, first of all, spot necessity, any risk that might occur to US forces in the area, to build relationships necessary for, that someone knows to come to somebody when something happens and that, you know, we're responsive, we're helpful, we're engaged. And to make sure that we're working with those local national security intelligence forces to.

• 45:41Speaker 04

  Because, you know, they want us there to train their people in something they couldn't get otherwise. They want to keep us safe, right? But they don't necessarily know what we care about or how to contact us. Or if something is happening, like, you know, what to do about it necessarily. So it's a lot of that work, um, which is really interesting, right? It's about building relationships, getting to know people. And, um, and spend a lot of time, you know, away from the main body, um, talking to the locals, talking to, um, you know, local officials. And, um, you know, you build interesting and, and, and fun relationships and get to see, get the executive mission that's fundamentally about like protecting force.

• 46:26Jack Murphy?

  Did you find any, you know, legitimate force protection issues? Anyone that was targeting Americans while they were employed there?

• 46:33Speaker 04

  I mean, nothing that developed into anything. But like, you know, the point of doing that mission well, in my opinion, is you take action before the threat's real.

• 46:42Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 46:43Speaker 04

  In many cases, before you can even know if a threat's real. To say like, hey, hey, we see, this is a specific example. We see the, in, um, I forget which town this was in, probably in, in, in Tebe.

• 47:01Speaker 04

  No, Kampala, sorry. This was in, this was in Kampala, which is the capital of Uganda down south.

• 47:07Speaker 04

  We started to see, uh, these cars, you know, we, soldiers were there, um, when they were, when they were not up north in the bush. And they would rotate back down and rotate back up and whatever. We'd see these, uh, and they had, uh, oh, wait, no, I'm crazy. I'm talking about Jamaica. Yeah, Jamaica is a very different mission. In, in Uganda, I'll get to that one in a second.

• 47:29Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  In, in Uganda, it was about, um,

• 47:37Speaker 04

  Understanding where the local Islamic population was and what their attitudes were toward toward us. Um, we were in the very far north of the of of the country. It was it was bushland. In fact, the US military paid to renovate a motel so the soldiers could stay at. Um, adding, you know, clean water, uh, uh, new new mosquito nets, that whole thing. So it was about like being clear on what was on and off limits, where people couldn't couldn't go, like that kind of thing. Jamaica was interesting because, um, similar, we were, we were in Kingston. And we were doing some missions in the interior of the country around, um, you know, local, local, uh, medical aid, building a veterinary clinic, building a, uh, uh,

• 48:22Speaker 04

  a, a human clinic in some, in some disadvantaged areas. But we would see these SUDs pull up to the, to the hotel we were at every night and we'd see these, the, you know, soldiers, clearly it's clean clothes, go like hop in and and do whatever. They had, they had the freedom to go in and out. They weren't restricted. We realized, and this is obviously concerning to us, um, we realized the local strip club was sending cars for soldiers so that they could go attend the club. Now, look. You do you. I'm not.

• 48:53Jack Murphy?

  Stop cracking down on our fun.

• 48:55Speaker 04

  I'm not, I'm not judging anybody for their extracurricular activities. But it's an interesting question of if I was a bad guy and I wanted to get a soldier in in a a compromising spot where I could potentially kidnap somebody.

• 49:08Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 49:08Speaker 04

  That's a damn good way to do it, right, is to is to create those relationships.

• 49:12Jack Murphy?

  Get on the party bus, boys.

• 49:14Speaker 04

  Party bus, guys, right? Have a great time. And it's not the first or the second or the 10th, it's the 20th time that, you know, you have the operation in place, you execute and you snatch your target. Um, and so we unfortunately had to crack down on on this to say like, hey, guys, like, you, you, you can't do this. Right? You're putting yourself in a really vulnerable place. And and like, if you get taken, you're gonna, you're, it's not gonna be a bad day.

• 49:39Jack Murphy?

  So they had to self-drive to the strip club after that?

• 49:41Speaker 04

  No, no, we told, we went and told the commander, uh, who was not happy at all about what his soldiers were doing.

• 49:47Jack Murphy?

  Such narcs.

• 49:48Speaker 04

  Such narcs. Such narcs, we really are. Um, but, uh, that was, that, that was quickly resolved.

• 49:57Jack Murphy?

  Like, we have a friend of mine, a civil affairs guy, this story where he deployed to Kinshasa, they were in the Congo. And the squad leader, it was really just like three CA guys and one of them was the squad leader. He didn't last but 24 hours there, like alcohol hookers and the DIA was like, he's out. You gotta leave.

• 50:19Speaker 04

  You gotta leave.

• 50:20Jack Murphy?

  Sorry.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  Come, come collect your, come collect your person.

• 50:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, come collect your boy.

• 50:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:25Jack Murphy?

  Um.

• 50:25Speaker 04

  Happens all the time.

• 50:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, it does. And 2012, you get out, you're working for Amazon and then going to work for Palantir, which sounds like it was a better fit for you. So Palantir, be, be real with us. Is it the Illuminati? Should we be afraid of this company?

• 50:44Speaker 04

  Absolutely not.

• 50:45Jack Murphy?

  So I worked. What did they do for real?

• 50:47Speaker 04

  For real, it is, it is about, um, the core thesis here is, um, and it's expanded a bit from this since I left. Cause I was there, I, I, I, I was there for about five years, but, um, the core thesis is there's too much data in the world. Humans cannot effectively access, visualize, engage with it.

• 51:08Jack Murphy?

  It's true.

• 51:08Speaker 04

  It's, it's, it's too hard, but at the same time, we have to. Because in that huge amount of data lies real insights that are necessary for national security. Um, and so it is about being able to ingest, process, slice, dice and present data to a human in a way that they can engage with much larger amounts of data than they could necessarily on their own. Right? Analyst notebook, he brought that up, which was the bane of my existence. Um, is, that's like the idea, right? You're bringing in data sources, you're, you're sort of putting them together and starting to build diagrams.

• 51:47Speaker 04

  But the analyst notebook is, is, um, very constrained in terms of how much you can, you can get in there. And, you know, how you can query that data effectively, how you can, the ways you can present it. Whereas Palantir was not, right? So it's about allowing humans to access the data that exists in ways that they can actually interact with it. Visualize it, present it, um, productively to, to get insights out of it. And that's still, I would argue, the core of Palantir. I think with the rise of AI, we've seen Palantir among other companies, and I have no special insight at this point. I've been, I've been gone from there for, for almost a decade, but we've seen it, you know, incrementally evolve into a data platform.

• 52:33Speaker 04

  That allows for not just humans, but tools to operate on that data in a sort of a unified way across a business. Which is hard, a business of any scale.

• 52:45Jack Murphy?

  And they also work with the Defense Department a lot.

• 52:47Speaker 04

  Oh, a ton.

• 52:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 04

  They work, but they work on both sides, right? Defense departments, they work on the intel side, they work, and they work extensively with commercial organizations.

• 52:58Jack Murphy?

  And you were there for five years, and I imagine your kind of background was a little unique in counterintelligence, but also as a software engineer. Is that why that you got picked up there?

• 53:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think so. I think it was, it was a combination of like, understanding, you know, of mission alignment, which is so important, I think, when, when both hiring and choosing a company to, to work in.

• 53:24Speaker 04

  And skill set, for sure.

• 53:28Jack Murphy?

  And you did security for them also?

• 53:31Speaker 04

  I did, I did, I did security for, for Palantir. I did, when I was at Amazon, I was doing security and, and IT combined. But yeah, I was the second, second or third hire on it, on a Palantir doing security. We were still very, you know, I think we were 300 people at the time, Palantir was.

• 53:50Jack Murphy?

  Were you guys getting into like, red teaming and that kind of thing?

• 53:53Speaker 04

  Oh, of course.

• 53:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 53:54Speaker 04

  Yes. That's always been a big component of the security programs I've been involved with. Because if you can't think like your adversary, you don't understand where your weak points are.

• 54:05Jack Murphy?

  So you try to hack into your own systems, you try to break through your own doors, that sort of stuff?

• 54:08Speaker 04

  Absolutely. And, and when we, you know, when we look to bring in new software, new tools, new whatever, also poking that, right? Like, what vulnerabilities might this introduce?

• 54:17Jack Murphy?

  Right, right, right.

• 54:18Speaker 04

  Into our systems that we, you know, we don't know about, and in many cases, the manufacturers don't know about.

• 54:24Jack Murphy?

  Any uh cool stories from that phase of your life that you want to talk about?

• 54:28Speaker 04

  You know, there was one, it's it's it tickles me to this day.

• 54:31Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 54:33Speaker 04

  We were um installing a a security system, like a like an alarm system at um at one of our executives' house, house, houses. And we got a sample in of of the system, right? They'd they'd set it up in like a in like a Pelican case where we had the the head unit and all that stuff. And they're like, you know, this is this, it was top of the line. It was what, you know, everyone had at the time. And so like, they're like, you're not going to find anything, but like, go take a look at this. And so we, you know, we we took a look, took it apart, poked at it, prodded at it, uh and figured out that we could actually um uh brute force the pins, the the alarm system pins remotely.

• 55:16Speaker 04

  And so all we had to do is figure out the IP address of this thing and they were they were on the internet.

• 55:20Jack Murphy?

  And just run the four digits?

• 55:21Speaker 04

  Just run the four digits and get in there, no problem, every time. And it wouldn't lock us out, it wouldn't, because it would on the keypad. Right? On the keypad, if you did, if you went, you know, eventually it would, it would tell you, oh, you've charged too many times, or like delay you longer, whatever.

• 55:41Speaker 04

  And it had this like silly web interface that, right? If you use that, it'd do the same thing. But if you just sort of went under the hood of the web interface and and poked at the API directly, no limits at all. It was great. So we could have broken into celebrities' houses or whatever, as long as we had just known the IP address out there.

• 55:57Jack Murphy?

  That's in, so that's interesting. You mentioned like you were also doing security for like the chief executives or people who would may, it was the idea of people who may bring corporate proprietary information home with them?

• 56:08Speaker 04

  Not just that, but like, even then, Palantir is pretty controversial. And so we wanted to make sure that, you know, when we were, and we do the same thing at Coinbase, right? Like, when when we have people who buy, you know, association with the company, the brand, are at additional risk.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  Either from, at at the time, it would have been activists, you know, targeting targeting Palantir most likely.

• 56:34Speaker 04

  Then we provide them like a level of of additional safety, right? That that's commensurate with the risk. And so, you know, we had a whole physical security team that was responsible for like the physical pieces of that. But we worked together very, very closely. So when they were considering new hardware like that, they would run it past us, just to see like, you know, what's what, make sure this, make sure this thing's okay.

• 56:54Jack Murphy?

  And tell us about, you know, jumping on with Coinbase. How did that come about?

• 56:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, so about five years into my tenure at Palantir, my boss left and to go on to bigger and better things. And I, you know, I think working at a company, it's about the mission. Yes, it's also about the people. And you have to enjoy both. And so, you know, with my boss gone, I'm like, hmm, you know, I'm sure they're gonna replace him. I don't really want the role. But at the same time, maybe I should like look around and see what's out there for me. And ended up getting connected to the team at Coinbase. Coinbase was very, very early, right? So this was like, this was 2016.

• 57:38Speaker 04

  And 100 people in an office in SF. You know, Bitcoin was very young at the time as even a concept.

• 57:50Speaker 04

  And the fascinating thing to me was

• 57:56Speaker 04

  there were really security challenges at play there that people hadn't really solved before. Now, I'm a big advocate that like most problems in the world, it's not the first time the world has seen the problem. Right? So like, if you do, if you do the research, if you, if you work at it, you'll find either a solution or a partial solution. Or you'll find pieces of solutions you can put together to make a whole. And so like, you should do that. You shouldn't reinvent the wheel.

• 58:25Speaker 04

  Coinbase, there were like,

• 58:29Speaker 04

  very rarely did I encounter even pieces of solutions to like the problems that we had, right? How do you protect private keys, which are really just short strings of data? That, that by themselves control access to hundreds of millions then, and now hundreds of billions of dollars.

• 58:45Jack Murphy?

  Because it's such like a nascent technology that it hasn't.

• 58:48Speaker 04

  Correct. Or, or like, look, managing private keys is not new. The NSA does it on an incredible scale. But it's, but it's, but it's different, right? It's not, they can, they have different safety, they don't always have to use these things. They don't have to be on internet connected, internet connected systems. They don't have to be as necessarily available or accessible as, as ours do because they, in the case of Coinbase, right, I need to use those keys when I send funds or when customers send funds. And so the challenge was like very, very different, but very exciting.

• 59:21Jack Murphy?

  So just to back up for one second, I mean Coinbase is a crypto company. I mean, what does that actually mean? Do they run crypto wallets? Do they make crypto coins? I I'm I don't know anything about this stuff.

• 59:32Speaker 04

  So the answer is yes to all of it. So Coinbase is a you can think of us as like a fidelity in that we provide an interface for you to

• 59:47Speaker 04

  for you to interact with, in our case, the crypto ecosystem, in their case, the the stocks and bonds and that ecosystem. So there's like a retail brokerage, if you will, component, although we're not a brokerage. There's a an exchange component, which is where items get traded, right? So in the context of of like stocks and bonds, that might be the NASDAQ or the N Y C, things like that, right? It's a place where buyers and sellers can meet and a transaction occurs. We operate an exchange. We operate an institutional business, right? So instead of you on the retail side, we might be a fidelity. The institutional business, maybe we're a JP Morgan or someone like that who's offering what's called prime brokerage services

• 1:00:29Speaker 04

  to hedge funds and VCs and and and other and and other banks or other businesses like that. And products and services to help them

• 1:00:38Speaker 04

  interact with the crypto ecosystem the way they want. We're also a custodian. Right? So you have, if you have a hundred million dollars in crypto, you got to ask yourself, where do I want to put that? Right? And, you know, you're you're you're you're you're safe in your basement is probably not the right answer. But it's private keys. It's not a bar of gold. You want to store a bar of gold, you go to, you know, lock up meat or you go to, you know, one of the other major sort of companies that specialize in this kind of thing.

• 1:01:05Jack Murphy?

  How how does that work for you guys? And again, this is such like a new world, I guess, in general, but it's specifically new to me. Banks hold on to your money and using what's it was called fractional reserve banking. They're able to invest that money and make money off of your money while it's chilling in the account.

• 1:01:21Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 1:01:22Jack Murphy?

  Bitcoin or a crypto coin is chilling on a data center that you guys own. How do you make money off of that?

• 1:01:28Speaker 04

  We don't.

• 1:01:29Jack Murphy?

  Really?

• 1:01:29Speaker 04

  Nope. We make money on in the context of a retail investor like yourself. We would make money on fees when you buy and sell.

• 1:01:37Jack Murphy?

  Okay, gotcha. It's like a sales tax.

• 1:01:40Speaker 04

  Yep, sales tax and then fees and other kinds, you know, there are other kinds of transactions, staking, things like that. We would take a fee on what you overall earned, but we don't do fractional reserve. We don't lend out customer assets to make money on them.

• 1:01:55Jack Murphy?

  Can you even do that yet with with crypto?

• 1:01:59Speaker 04

  I mean, it's a complicated answer to that question.

• 1:02:01Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Speaker 04

  The basic, like technically, potentially. Um, but philosophically, absolutely not.

• 1:02:11Jack Murphy?

  Um, and we were talking a little bit earlier and I mean, I am, uh, I'm not totally dismissive of crypto, but I'm also kind of skeptical about it.

• 1:02:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Jack Murphy?

  You were making sort of a, an interesting case, I think, for crypto and what it can potentially do that current currencies, including the reserve currency, the world's reserve currency, maybe can't do for people.

• 1:02:34Speaker 04

  So there's, there's a bunch of interesting stuff about, about crypto and like, look, I'll, I'll be the first to admit crime occurs on crypto.

• 1:02:41Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:02:41Speaker 04

  Right? Crime occurs in the dollar, crime occurs in.

• 1:02:44Jack Murphy?

  The yen.

• 1:02:45Speaker 04

  Probably in livestock transfers, right? Like crime is everywhere, scams are everywhere.

• 1:02:52Speaker 04

  And so like, it's a big deal to us that consumers are become educated and really think through protecting themselves, but um, there's also a lot of positive aspects to crypto, right? So let's, let's take a, maybe a Ponzi scheme as an example, right? And so in a Ponzi scheme, right, the, the bad guy is tempting people to invest with them. And uh, they are, you know, essentially paying uh, returns to people by taking money, people are giving them and just paying it right back out, right? And they're just trying to accumulate more and more money. Eventually, um, they think they have enough and just run away with all of it, right? That's a very simple version of a Ponzi scheme.

• 1:03:36Speaker 04

  And there are certainly Ponzi schemes in the context of crypto, just like there are, you know, Bernie Madoff, right?

• 1:03:41Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:03:41Speaker 04

  Biggest one ever. In the traditional financial system, the difference is when you go to trace that money, right? And you you look at, okay, in the traditional financial system, maybe it's run through a couple of shell companies. Maybe there's, you know, an overseas link somewhere, which makes which makes things harder. And it's it's incredibly hard to track that money down.

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• 1:06:02Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:06:02Speaker 04

  For this exact reason, right? Because they have to be able to follow the money to make the case. In cryptocurrency, by and large, with a couple of exceptions called privacy coins. Those transactions, there's no way to hide or obfuscate that really. We can talk about, you know, mixers and things like that. But but those transactions are there on the blockchain for anyone to look at. You're not going and auditing books of a company.

• 1:06:27Jack Murphy?

  The FBI doesn't have to subpoena you to do that?

• 1:06:29Speaker 04

  Nope.

• 1:06:29Jack Murphy?

  It's just public information.

• 1:06:30Speaker 04

  They would have to subpoena us to connect that, assuming it was a Coinbase user, to connect that address to an identity. Right? To say, okay, this transaction occurred, A paid B, you know, a Bitcoin.

• 1:06:44Jack Murphy?

  And this is the guy that owns the wallet?

• 1:06:45Speaker 04

  Who owns A.

• 1:06:46Jack Murphy?

  Okay, gotcha.

• 1:06:47Speaker 04

  Assuming it's our customer, if they subpoena us, then we could tell them that. Not unlike, you know, a bank has similar records.

• 1:06:53Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:06:53Speaker 04

  That they would, they would. This is a little bit different when you talk about self custody and self custodial wallets and we can, we can go down that rabbit hole. Crypto is a huge, wide ecosystem, right? There's a, there's a very deep topic to get into. But the core of it, the really big difference is those transactions are there. They'll be there forever. There's no hiding them, deleting them, obfuscating them, getting rid of them. And that is an immense benefit to law enforcement when they go back and try to figure out what happened.

• 1:07:21Jack Murphy?

  And I mean, that's like just in the last like 10 years, really, that that's become like a field, right?

• 1:07:27Speaker 04

  Yes. So Bitcoin was sort of invented in 2009. And I think really started to gain momentum, maybe 2012, when Coinbase was founded in 2012 as well. And is obviously blown up in the past, call it five, six years.

• 1:07:45Jack Murphy?

  Um, in, yeah, I'll circle back around on that, but uh, some of the other uses of crypto that you were mentioning was um, you said some of the challenges to economic freedom, especially that people in third world countries have. And how, how would that type of person use crypto?

• 1:08:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, so go back to mission, right? Like, what is Coinbase's mission? Why did it, why did it engage with me? Is Coinbase's mission is to increase economic freedom in the world, right? And what does that mean practically? It means that if you're an entrepreneur in Central Africa somewhere and you come up with a great idea, um, you should be able to raise money, to accept payments, to pay your vendors, to do all of the things that we would take for granted here in the US. And you should be able to do it globally, um, to be able to uh, take that amazing idea and, and really bring it to life, right?

• 1:08:46Speaker 04

  People, um, good ideas don't know borders, they don't know boundaries, they don't know race or creed or anything, they're just good ideas. And the, and it really does all of us, I think, a disservice to say, if you have a good idea and you're over there, well, good luck with that good idea, you're never gonna be able to do anything with it. But if you're over here, you're fine and you, you actually have all the tools you need. That to me is insane.

• 1:09:12Speaker 04

  There's a bunch of other stuff in economic freedom about property rights and like, people shouldn't be subject to arbitrary seizures and they should, they should, you know, be able to control their money and their, and their value and their assets they've earned and a bunch of other stuff in there as well. And so that mission really resonated with me.

• 1:09:30Speaker 04

  And crypto is a very interesting way to improve economic freedom because it is largely global, borderless.

• 1:09:40Speaker 04

  In the world of cryptocurrency, it doesn't matter where you are, whether you're in the US, whether you're in Uganda, you have the same access to cryptocurrency. You have the same ability to transact. It doesn't matter if you're in Argentina and your currency is being hyperinflated, right? You have access to a stable store of value. In that case, maybe it's like USDC, right? A US dollar backed stablecoin where you can put your hardened money and not have it inflated away by the central bank of that country.

• 1:10:13Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:10:13Speaker 04

  Right? And so it's really about bringing, I think, strong financial tools to a world where they don't always exist, bringing strong property rights. You can't seize a Bitcoin broadly speaking, right? You send Coinbase a warrant and say that's the fruits of crime. Of course, we're going to freeze those assets. But like in a self custody wallet, for example, where you control your own keys, there's no mechanism to freeze a Bitcoin that you control without your consent. There's no mechanism for the government to say, that's my Bitcoin now. I'm going to take that away. It doesn't exist.

• 1:10:57Jack Murphy?

  Do you think it's coming?

• 1:10:58Speaker 04

  To Bitcoin? No, absolutely not. There, so Bitcoin is really just software at the end of the day.

• 1:11:06Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:11:06Speaker 04

  And it's written by a community of folks who are very dedicated to Bitcoin's core ideals, right?

• 1:11:17Speaker 04

  And so I could not see a world where Bitcoin, as an example, would introduce that kind of government. They would see it as censorship effectively.

• 1:11:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, I just bring it up because, I mean, there was a time when Switzerland had bank privacy laws and it was the place to go for private banking.

• 1:11:34Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:11:34Jack Murphy?

  That's kind of over now.

• 1:11:36Speaker 04

  It is. I think it'll be a very interesting, you know, future for Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, right? Because in the context of Switzerland, there was a government.

• 1:11:49Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:11:49Speaker 04

  There were banks, there were institutions that could be targeted and leverage that could be had over those institutions.

• 1:11:58Speaker 04

  Bitcoin is software. It's written by humans, obviously.

• 1:12:01Jack Murphy?

  It's just a bunch of dudes working around the world and...

• 1:12:03Speaker 04

  Right? And you can't...

• 1:12:08Speaker 04

  You can't force them to, even if you could, right? Say, sit them down, write a backdoor into Bitcoin. Um, okay, well, that's all open source. Everyone can see the code that gets, that gets added. Um, and so they're just not gonna, they're not gonna run that software. They're not gonna deploy that code. It's, it's, it's, it's a useless tactic.

• 1:12:28Jack Murphy?

  Right, right. Oh, I, I see what you're saying because it's, the system's transparent.

• 1:12:32Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 1:12:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Um.

• 1:12:37Jack Murphy?

  Dollar-backed stablecoins. And the other thing you mentioned to me that I thought was interesting was when we threw all those sanctions at Russia when they invaded Ukraine.

• 1:12:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, post, post-Ukraine this time around, um, you know, we threw the book at Russia in, in the context of sanctions in a way that I don't know that we've ever done before to another country.

• 1:13:04Speaker 04

  Maybe Iran, possibly. And I, I think in this, at this time, though, the, the world, a lot of the world stood up, sat up and took notice and thought, wow.

• 1:13:17Speaker 04

  We didn't necessarily understand or, or think the US was ever going to use that power or that we were giving them that power. And like, you know, maybe we're friendly with the US now, but are we always going to be?

• 1:13:30Speaker 04

  And we should really start to think about our exposure to this, the power we've given over.

• 1:13:37Speaker 04

  And we saw a number of central banks explore ways to sort of not de-dollarize, but like decrease their exposure. Right? We saw countries like Iran, China, Russia start to trade not in US dollars, start to settle transactions not in US dollars between them, which is,

• 1:13:57Speaker 04

  I'm not gonna say unheard of, but like a big departure from historical norms. And it's a concerning trend, right? Because if that continues, that if, if de-dollarization continues, the US loses one of its biggest soft power tools. Right? The ability to enforce, enforce sanctions.

• 1:14:19Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:14:21Speaker 04

  At the same time, you know, we see the rise of dollar-backed stablecoins, right? And so the dollarization of international, you know, of international trade is a decision that governments made and make, governments and central banks, right? Because it's trusted, it's available, it's, you know, it doesn't have the kind of currency controls. We don't see it being, you know, inflated the way other countries have inflated their currency for all sorts. So it's the most stable option that's available. They can also make a different choice, potentially. It's going to take a lot of work, a lot of years to do that.

• 1:15:04Speaker 04

  But there's a different side to that, right? That of the individual consumer in these countries. I mentioned earlier Argentina, right? Because they've had an episode, had or having an episode of hyperinflation, right? Where their local currency is getting devalued by their government for a bunch of reasons. It's not unique to Argentina, that's just a top of mind country. A bunch of countries have done this over the years. And the citizens of those countries get screwed, right? Because suddenly their currency is worth less and less and less, and they have no control over that. It's just happening to them. With dollar-backed stablecoins and the global accessibility of cryptocurrency, they can

• 1:15:49Speaker 04

  actually make a choice now that they could never make before. They can make the choice to say, actually, I want to keep my funds, not in my local currency, but in a dollar-backed stablecoin. They can effectively, you know, dollarize their own personal commerce, their own personal trade, and mitigate the risk of their country's central bank or government creating an inflationary environment and devaluing their work. And that's almost a redollarization from the other direction of commerce, of international commerce.

• 1:16:28Jack Murphy?

  How does that change, like, as far as the political action on the back end?

• 1:16:32Speaker 04

  Right, now that becomes interesting.

• 1:16:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I imagine like Weimar Germany, what if those people were able to dollarize their currency?

• 1:16:40Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:16:40Jack Murphy?

  And didn't have to, you know, burn, as we're told, piles of money in the street.

• 1:16:43Speaker 04

  Wheelbarrows and whatever, yeah.

• 1:16:45Jack Murphy?

  Like, what does that look like for a government?

• 1:16:48Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, it depends on the goals of the government, right? Like, it could be something that is, that the government really doesn't want.

• 1:16:58Speaker 04

  And then that becomes a whole separate issue and conversation, right? So, okay, now, the government, in a world where this freedom exists, how do they stop that? Well, maybe they, you know, try to restrict the internet. Maybe they pass laws about, you know, what funds can be used in commerce, or all sorts of things. But, you know, the history would tell us that a black market would emerge.

• 1:17:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:25Speaker 04

  Right? That the ability to trade that hard goods, hard currency, will show up. I think in Germany it was probably gold and silver, right? Was the hard currency that was used. And I'm sure the government seized all that stuff, or put restrictions on its use, and it was still probably used in the black market. In a world where they don't have the ability to seize it, right? Maybe it becomes a crime to possess in a country like that. But the transactions could still happen, and the commerce could still go on. And it would insulate that population from the impact of that, and therefore decrease control of that government on its people.

• 1:18:06Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:18:06Speaker 04

  Which is fascinating.

• 1:18:07Jack Murphy?

  Right. Yeah, I mean, there is a bit of like anarchist philosophy behind it that I can appreciate.

• 1:18:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:18:14Jack Murphy?

  But I do wonder, like, for instance, so what do you think this means for, like, the dollar as the world's financial reserve currency?

• 1:18:22Speaker 04

  I mean, I, I, nothing is going to dethrone the dollar in the short term. It's just, it's just not going to happen, right?

• 1:18:30Speaker 04

  And, or, or the medium term, or probably even the long term.

• 1:18:36Speaker 04

  But, you know, there, there's been experiment, you know, the, the, the IMF, uh, and then I think the WTO have talked for a long time academically about, hey, could, should we establish a basket of currencies as,

• 1:18:52Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  as the, the, um, the,

• 1:18:55Jack Murphy?

  That are sort of like pegged to one another.

• 1:18:57Speaker 04

  Right, right. And that, and that by doing so, does that mean, can we like create more stability? The mechanisms for that are incredibly complicated.

• 1:19:07Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:07Speaker 04

  When you get down to brass tacks and exchange rates and like, how's all that work?

• 1:19:11Jack Murphy?

  You're basically getting into like world government at that point.

• 1:19:13Speaker 04

  Right. You, you basically are.

• 1:19:15Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Speaker 04

  In theory, a cryptocurrency could solve that. Much more neatly and simply.

• 1:19:22Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:19:22Speaker 04

  Than I think any other solution that's out there today.

• 1:19:28Speaker 04

  Whether or not that's going to, that's going to, you know, happen, that's a whole different conversation in question.

• 1:19:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:35Jack Murphy?

  So you're currently the chief security officer at Coinbase. Tell us a little bit about your job there. I mean, you told me you deal with everything from insider threats, physical security, anti-fraud.

• 1:19:47Speaker 04

  Yep. We deal with everything from, from bomb threats to our executives, all the way on the other sides to, people trying to break into Coinbase user accounts. And everything, everything, literally in between. There's a really fun, um, you should look it up on, on, so Brian Armstrong is our CEO. He has a, a, a pretty significant presence on X. And, um, just an example of like one of the random things that we deal with. He was recently gifted a bottle of tequila. He didn't know it was coming. Um, it was from the guys at the All In Podcast. And they have a new tequila. Um, I haven't had it. Brian says it's very good.

• 1:20:30Speaker 04

  And they were, and they were sending some to sort of friends. He'd been on the podcast previously. They were sending him the bottle.

• 1:20:36Speaker 04

  We screen Brian's mail, right? Like we do for executives and other office locations because crazy people do crazy things, right?

• 1:20:42Jack Murphy?

  Do you have a, a tequila taster like Putin has a food taster?

• 1:20:45Speaker 04

  No. What we do have is an X-ray machine. And interestingly, that bottle of tequila is backlit. So it's shipped in, you know, a box, right?

• 1:20:56Jack Murphy?

  Okay, gotcha. Display box.

• 1:20:58Speaker 04

  When you open the, uh, the, the, the door to the box, there are, there's a, there's a, there's a magnetic door sensor that you open and it triggers a little controller that lights LEDs behind the bottle to provide backlight. The, the controller is, is, you know, the, the liquor, right? Is, is in a bottle with a cap on it and it's very obviously, what do you think that looks like on an X-ray?

• 1:21:22Jack Murphy?

  Just like some dynamite tied together?

• 1:21:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, it looks like a bomb. It looks like, it looks like a textbook picture of a bomb.

• 1:21:30Jack Murphy?

  Oh, because it has a trigger mechanism?

• 1:21:31Speaker 04

  It has a trigger mechanism, it has a little controller, it has these wires from the controller going to like places around the, the liquid filled container in the middle, right? So we look at this, we're like, that's a bomb. Right? Cause it was all, it was, it was delivered by courier service and it was like, the whole thing was super shady.

• 1:21:51Speaker 04

  And, uh, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll show you a picture here if we, if we have, if we have time. And we, um, we, you know, we look at this, we're like, okay, great. Let's, we called the LAPD, their bomb squad. They come in, they look at it, they're like, that's a bomb.

• 1:22:09Speaker 04

  Like, okay, what do we do? What's our strategy going to be? How do we deal with this? They were, you know, they were on the way. The bomb truck was, was, was, was rolling out to the house at the time.

• 1:22:18Jack Murphy?

  The robots coming out?

• 1:22:20Speaker 04

  In fact, the robot was there, um, was already there.

• 1:22:25Speaker 04

  And then like, we keep looking at it and like blowing the image up on the X-ray and we're like, there's a, there's a logo on that circuit board that's, that's in there, that's the, that's the controller for the lights. And we, we, you know, we're looking at it, we're saying, does it say all in? Why would it say all in? We start Googling, we realize, and the whole story like unfolds in about, you know,

• 1:22:47Jack Murphy?

  Five minutes.

• 1:22:48Speaker 04

  Five minutes that like, oh shit, this is the bottle of tequila.

• 1:22:54Speaker 04

  But LAP doesn't know that and is our and they're not gonna take our word for that. And so we spend probably 20 minutes talking them out of blowing up Brian's bottle of tequila. And like a controlled detonation.

• 1:23:08Jack Murphy?

  They have like the big like sphere that they're gonna put it in.

• 1:23:11Speaker 04

  Yep, get the robots to take it into sphere, they're gonna control detonation, it was gonna be amazing. Uh, but we did successfully save Brian's tequila. Um, and uh, he got to drink it and he actually gave it to the security team that did the response. Um, cause, cause he's a good guy and it's a apparently good bottle.

• 1:23:32Jack Murphy?

  I know the, the insider threat thing is like a huge issue that corporations deal with and obviously the government too, like the, you know, we found out with numerous moles and leakers and so on that the insider can do a tremendous amount of damage to the organization.

• 1:23:46Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 1:23:47Jack Murphy?

  How, how do you guys kind of deal with that organizationally?

• 1:23:50Speaker 04

  It's tough, right? Insiders are, are I think one of the, the toughest threats to face because by definition.

• 1:23:56Jack Murphy?

  They're supposed to be there.

• 1:23:57Speaker 04

  They're supposed to be there and, and in many cases, they're supposed to be doing a lot of the things that they're doing. Um, you know, we've had cases, um, you know, in India, Philippines, places like that. Of, you know, bad guys offering insiders very large for the region sums of money to, um, to, to, to become insiders. Right? We, we did a big public thing about this earlier this year about a, uh, a criminal group that is, that have been targeting Coinbase customer support agents.

• 1:24:32Jack Murphy?

  Interesting.

• 1:24:32Speaker 04

  Based in India, offering, you know, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands more of dollars to them. Um, in, in exchange for taking actions like, like, you know, uh, sharing customer information. So the criminals could then use that to go steal from the, the customers or try to at least.

• 1:24:52Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha.

• 1:24:52Speaker 04

  Right? Um, and the hardest thing about that is, well, what, what were they, what were they asking the customer service reps to do? Well, go in and look at the record of a customer. What is a customer service record rep supposed to do? Go in and look at the records of a customer, right? Um, the, the difference is maybe it was not a customer they were supposed to look at or they were looking at more than they should have, things like that, right? But, um,

• 1:25:17Speaker 04

  You know, we do, we do a lot to try to both prevent and detect this kind of stuff. Obviously, you know, the systems we build have to have the right level of auditing and logging. Like, we need to know what everyone's doing at all times. That's, that's, that's basic table stakes.

• 1:25:36Speaker 04

  But we, you know, we, we, we have a very robust insider threat program that's both, you know, defensive and offensive in nature. That is, like, we want to know who's coming after us. Who are these guys? What are their tactics? What are their techniques?

• 1:25:51Jack Murphy?

  I was gonna ask you, do you think you guys get targeted by foreign intelligence services? Is this kind of something that's on the radar?

• 1:25:57Speaker 04

  That's a really interesting question. I'm, I'm sure so to some degree. It's more likely that they'll be targeting our customers. Right? So like, I don't know that, you know, the MSS in China cares about Coinbase per se, but they do care about dissidents.

• 1:26:15Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:26:15Speaker 04

  Right?

• 1:26:15Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 1:26:16Speaker 04

  And to the extent that a dissident is using cryptocurrency to perform activities.

• 1:26:21Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:26:22Speaker 04

  Right? That's how we would get looped into that targeting, most likely.

• 1:26:27Speaker 04

  And they're more likely, in that context, to probably go after the dissident themselves. Right? To steal their credentials.

• 1:26:35Jack Murphy?

  Makes sense.

• 1:26:35Speaker 04

  Rather than come after Coinbase writ large. What we do see, though, is, is like, transnational crime groups, right? Are, are our biggest threat group by far.

• 1:26:45Jack Murphy?

  Like, organized crime?

• 1:26:46Speaker 04

  Organized crime around the world.

• 1:26:50Jack Murphy?

  I, you know, you mentioned it, so the, it, it's like this new form of crime. We've even had it happen here in Manhattan, where, you know, hacking into somebody's crypto wallet is probably very difficult to do, I imagine. But... You can go to the guy's residence and say, I'm gonna hit you in the head with this monkey wrench.

• 1:27:11Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 1:27:11Jack Murphy?

  If you don't get access to it. We're like, we've had that happen here in, here in the city.

• 1:27:15Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 1:27:15Jack Murphy?

  Um, what, what do you make of that? Like, kind of like emerging form of theft? That's what it is. And like, how do you, I mean, now you need to, you need physical security as well.

• 1:27:25Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, it's really, it's interesting because, you know, traditionally you think of that with people who had, I don't know, watches or

• 1:27:34Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:27:35Speaker 04

  Right. Or some other valuable collection of items.

• 1:27:37Jack Murphy?

  Like, if you can, like, uh, I'm, I'm pretty sure in the city, you know, if you're like, say, a diamond merchant and you're carrying a hundred thousand dollars of diamonds, you can get a concealed carry permit to protect the, you know, yourself from being robbed.

• 1:27:51Speaker 04

  Probably. But, I mean, that sounds very logical to me.

• 1:27:53Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:53Speaker 04

  Um, and so I think it's, it's the same advice I give someone who has, who's like, been collecting baseball cards their whole life and their collection's worth, you know, a quarter million dollars. Well, my suggestion is, don't put that on the internet, right? OPSEC first. OPSEC first and always is be smart about what you're publishing. Those criminals are, are, are mostly opportunistic.

• 1:28:17Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:28:18Speaker 04

  Right? They're, they're out there saying, oh, you know, this guy posted about all, all their baseball cards or their Bitcoin or their watch collection or whatever. Can I find them? And if the answer is yes, you're much more likely to be involved in that kind of crime. Um, this, this includes, you know, bragging at parties. Don't go, don't go to the bar and loudly brag to the pretty girl.

• 1:28:41Jack Murphy?

  Crypto coins, bro.

• 1:28:42Speaker 04

  Exactly. Right? There, uh, there's, there have been literal cases of that, um, that I've seen where people do exactly that. And, and yeah, they get jumped after the fact. Um, so like, in the same way, don't, um,

• 1:29:00Speaker 04

  Boys, don't make bad choices, right? Don't, don't walk down the dark alley at night alone, counting your money. Right, that, that, there, these are, these are, these are choices that we understand in the context of the physical world, right? We, we've all learned them. Um, you know, you and I learned them a lot in the military, but like everyone grows up, you know, don't count your money in public, turn your, when you're going on vacation, pause your mail, right? There's a hundred different little things we learn. We never learned that growing up about the internet, about social media, about, about this new form of security and opsec. We all need to start practicing more. And it's a real problem because criminals, whether they be people trying to scam you

• 1:29:39Speaker 04

  or take over your account or verge into the physical world, are using that lack of awareness and lack of knowledge to execute their crimes. And I think it's on all of us to educate not just ourselves, but those around us. Right? Cause I don't think, you know, you and I probably don't need a refresher on the tenants of opsec. Um, but, you know, I'm sure we both know someone who does.

• 1:30:05Jack Murphy?

  And other types of like the other, um, anti-fraud operations that you've been involved in, what are some of the other kind of like fraud or scams or things that you're seeing in crypto that you're having to deal with as a security officer?

• 1:30:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, is, as something I, I believe strongly, there are no new scams, right? It's, it's all old scams.

• 1:30:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:26Speaker 04

  Right? Um, they're just, you know, you slap a new coat of paint on them for the, for the, for the new circumstances you find yourself in, right? So like, um, there's a thing that was very popular, you know, in the last, over the last year, year or two called pig butchering, which is, which is a style of romance scam. What distinguishes it is, and it comes, it's, it's actually has, has, the name is Chinese and translates to pig butchering, but the, the principle of it is like you fatten up the pig before you take it to slaughter. You spend, in, in this style of scam, you spend a lot more time, um, building the relationship and convincing the victim that you are there for, you know, mostly it's a romance type scam.

• 1:31:08Jack Murphy?

  It's a confidence scam.

• 1:31:09Speaker 04

  It's a confidence scam, right? Um, and then before you execute whatever your, your actual scam is, the actual way you steal the money, right? Um, but, but it's a romance scam, it's a confidence scam, a, a, and these can vary in detail, but really are, um,

• 1:31:27Speaker 04

  They don't vary in substance.

• 1:31:31Speaker 04

  Um, other than that, you know, we have, we have all sorts. I think probably right now, what we see a lot of is, um, and you probably get those, those like spam text messages, right? About like,

• 1:31:43Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:31:44Speaker 04

  Hi, hi, hi Jenny, are we still on for golf tomorrow? Right?

• 1:31:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:48Speaker 04

  Um, that's, that's normally an entrance into a, into a confidence scam of some sort.

• 1:31:54Speaker 04

  There, there are other more nuanced things, but like, like a lot of people are seeing that right now.

• 1:31:59Jack Murphy?

  And who are like the actors behind these scams? You know, have you like unmasked some of them and where they are?

• 1:32:04Speaker 04

  So I'll tell you what, and this is really, really sad.

• 1:32:06Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:06Speaker 04

  They are largely human trafficking victims, working out of scam compounds in, uh, Southeast Asia.

• 1:32:13Jack Murphy?

  I've heard exactly this. Yeah.

• 1:32:15Speaker 04

  And it is truly horrific. They are abused physically, sexually, mentally, emotionally. They are, you know, confined in these, in these, uh, camps. There's a great person, uh, her name's Erin West. She was formerly a DA in Santa Clara County, um, and runs a thing called Operation Shamrock. And she was actually over there in the Southeast Asia not too long ago.

• 1:32:41Speaker 04

  At, at no small risk to her personally, um, working with people to locate these centers and to film them. And figure out, hey, how are they getting internet? How are they getting power? Is the local, like, is the local government aware of this? Can we?

• 1:32:58Jack Murphy?

  Yes.

• 1:32:58Speaker 04

  Right? And, and, but, but how can we then bring pressure on those governments to make these scam compounds untenable?

• 1:33:05Jack Murphy?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:33:07Speaker 04

  And so like, she does a bunch of great work, uh, cannot, cannot praise her highly enough for that. But it's, it's, it's an incredibly sad story.

• 1:33:19Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. And, and so these, you know, women are like calling sad dudes.

• 1:33:25Speaker 04

  Not just women, men too.

• 1:33:26Jack Murphy?

  Men too. Yeah.

• 1:33:27Speaker 04

  Across the board.

• 1:33:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Calling up little old ladies, like, help us save the orphans in Ukraine and, you know, this kind of stuff.

• 1:33:33Speaker 04

  They, they do, they do those scams. They do, you know, meeting lonely people on dating apps. They do, um, you know, those kinds of mass text messages that,

• 1:33:42Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:43Speaker 04

  That we just talked about. They do the whole scam, the whole board.

• 1:33:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. I heard about one in, um, Thailand that got blown out just recently where the Thai government like came in and, and seized the dude's assets and he runs and.

• 1:33:57Speaker 04

  But I mean, and I'm not going to discount that. That's amazing. Great outcome. There are 10 more where that one came from.

• 1:34:04Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:04Speaker 04

  They're all over the place.

• 1:34:06Jack Murphy?

  And they're all over Southeast Asia?

• 1:34:09Speaker 04

  Yes. I think there's a bunch in Thailand. There's, you know, they're really all over Southeast Asia.

• 1:34:16Jack Murphy?

  You think it's really working with local governments that, you know, that the FBI would be able to really mitigate that?

• 1:34:22Speaker 04

  I think there's two choke points. Really, it's about how do they get the supporting services? That's the choke point, right? Because those scam compounds, they need computers, they need internet, they need power, they need all of these supporting services. That, and they need, you know, the humans to do it. But like, the supporting services are where you can really cause damage to these operations. So, getting local governments to intervene, to, even if they don't raid, right? Putting pressure on the internet service providers that are giving them internet by publicly naming and shaming. Oh, hey, this scam, this scam compound is served by whatever, like, you know.

• 1:35:05Speaker 04

  That, doing the same thing with maybe like utilities, or with other supporting services, I think can be very impactful in this context. Even if the local governments, for whatever reason, don't want to engage.

• 1:35:21Jack Murphy?

  I mean, we're coming to the end of the list here. For me, I mean, is there anything else that you want to talk about that you're passionate about as far as crypto? Or security, or cybersecurity, that, you know, you think it's important for listeners to know about?

• 1:35:34Speaker 04

  I mean, the big thing, and I would just reiterate this, is we're in a new world of personal security right now. And your listeners probably don't need a reminder about OPSEC. They probably don't need a reminder about, you know.

• 1:35:49Speaker 04

  Getting getting spam texts or spam calls or whatever. But I bet every single one of your listeners knows someone who does. And the thing I would encourage anyone, everyone to do is do not let the first time a potential victim hears about a scam. Don't let that be from a scammer. Let it be from a friend. Right. Have the conversation upfront. So that person, you're like, gosh, they're, they're, they're, they're older and they love everybody and they'll answer every phone call and whatever. Oh gosh, they're, they're like, you know, lonely, disconnected. They're, they're, they're, they're reaching out.

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• 1:38:22Speaker 04

  For for community. Hey, there.

• 1:38:26Speaker 04

  You know, this, this, this person, maybe they don't, they don't, they're financially insecure. They don't know much about this new, whatever it is, whatever that risk factor is. The thing that prevents people from getting caught up in scams is education. By by far the best preventative. And so I'm a huge advocate of like, you know, I can do what I can do from the context of Coinbase. And we, when we put a lot of content out on, on YouTube, we do a lot of stuff on Instagram. We do blogs, we work with other brands. But I'm never going to be able to reach everybody. And I'm especially not going to reach the truly vulnerable people.

• 1:39:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:39:03Speaker 04

  Right. It's the, it's the most.

• 1:39:05Jack Murphy?

  Grandma.

• 1:39:06Speaker 04

  Correct. It's the most infuriating thing is like, I can shout from high heaven about this. And the audience I reach.

• 1:39:12Jack Murphy?

  They're not watching this podcast. Yeah.

• 1:39:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, but everyone here has a grandmother.

• 1:39:17Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:39:17Speaker 04

  Right. Everyone here has friends. Everyone here has those people in their lives that they, that, you know, they can ask the question, have you, have you heard about the scams going around the internet right now? And if you haven't, can I tell you a little bit about them? Because they can really cost a lot of damage.

• 1:39:32Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:33Speaker 04

  Right. Have those conversations because people out there need the information.

• 1:39:38Jack Murphy?

  Okay, so if I have decided I want to become a crypto bro now.

• 1:39:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:39:43Jack Murphy?

  Going all in, where can I find Coinbase? What do I need to do?

• 1:39:46Speaker 04

  Coinbase.com.

• 1:39:47Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 1:39:48Speaker 04

  Right. And it's a very straightforward sign up. A lot, it's, it's, it's basically the same as opening a bank account. Right. We'll, we'll make sure you're you. Make sure you're not a sanctioned individual. Make sure you're not otherwise, you know, not a nice person. Open your account, you can connect it to your bank account so you can move funds over. And just like that, you're able to buy cryptocurrency. Now, the question is then what should you buy?

• 1:40:13Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:40:13Speaker 04

  Right. And so there is a ton of educational material out there. There are also a lot of scammers out there. What I tell people is stick with the big names to start. Bitcoin, Ethereum are the two biggest names by far in the crypto space. Right? Get a little bit of exposure to that. Not much. And certainly in the very beginning, you shouldn't put more in there than you would put on a sports bet.

• 1:40:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, a friend once told me like when dabbling in cryptocurrency, he was like, don't put anything into it unless you're prepared to just set that money on fire.

• 1:40:49Speaker 04

  To start, because, because you don't know enough, right? To really to make, to even understand what the choices are. Right? Or what the trade offs are. But like a little bit of exposure, now you got skin in the game. Right? And so that is the, that's sort of the gateway to starting to learn more. Right? And then go out there and, and look at Coinbase's YouTube, look at the blog, look what we're talking about. We try to share great information with consumers and, and engage on all of our socials. And sort of slowly branch out from there, right? Doing, doing like you would any other hobby. Right? You want to go learn to barbecue meat, right? Okay, great. Like, let's, let's, let's start from, you know, from a few trusted sources, let's learn the basics and then let's start to go out there and read, read the message boards.

• 1:41:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Well, yeah. And the next thing you know, you have saltwater fish tanks and a D and D miniature collection that you've been painting. That's, that's how it starts.

• 1:41:42Speaker 04

  It is. It's how it starts. But, you know, you wouldn't have known what miniatures to get and how to paint them if you didn't take that first step.

• 1:41:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. And it's totally true that, you know, I, I would have no idea how to go about some of those hobbies if it was not for the internet and YouTube and these, these sorts of things that. Diffuse and spread that information.

• 1:42:01Speaker 04

  It's really amazing.

• 1:42:01Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Um, anything else we haven't talked about here that you you'd like to mention?

• 1:42:06Speaker 04

  No, that I think is it's a great conversation.

• 1:42:08Jack Murphy?

  Okay. Um, well, thank you, Philip. I really appreciate your time.

• 1:42:11Speaker 04

  Appreciate you.

• 1:42:12Jack Murphy?

  Coinbase.com. Uh, and thank you, everyone who joined us and and watched this interview. Appreciate it.

• 1:42:20Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:42:35Speaker 04

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:42:46Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:42:51Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:42:57Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:43:17Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:44:12Jack Murphy?

  And we'll see you next week.

• 1:44:15Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High Side News Outlet, which I run with Shawn Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week. It's going to come into your inbox and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Eyes On and the Team House and whatever's topical or current on the High Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once a week email. It'll slide into your inbox and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week. It's really good. Checking it out.

• 1:44:59Jack Murphy?

  The website for it is teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Go there and you enter into your email list or you enter your email into the little thing on the website and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support and hope you'll consider signing up. Where's the link? The link will also be down in the description if you're looking for it there. And that's teamhousepodcast.kit, K-I-T, Kilo, India, Tango, dot com, backslash, join.

• 1:45:37Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel. People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood. And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:46:07Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:46:14Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 1:46:34Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:47:34Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ushkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel. People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood. And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:48:05Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:48:11Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:48:31Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:48:58Speaker 04

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:49:33Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:49:48Speaker 04

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:49:59Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:50:04Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:50:10Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 1:50:30Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 1:50:57Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:51:32Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:51:47Speaker 04

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:51:58Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:52:03Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:52:09Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 1:52:29Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:53:30Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:53:45Speaker 04

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:53:55Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 1:54:01Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:54:07Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:54:26Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:54:54Speaker 04

  Cash Flow Crunch, OnDeck's small business line of credit, gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:55:31Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:55:46Speaker 00

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to "I'm deathly allergic", in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:55:57Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:56:02Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:56:08Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 1:56:28Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, Study Mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:56:55Speaker 04

  Cash Flow Crunch, OnDeck's small business line of credit, gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:57:32Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:57:47Speaker 04

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to "I'm deathly allergic," in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:57:58Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:58:03Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:58:09Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:58:29Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, Study Mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:58:57Speaker 04

  Built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:59:32Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:59:46Speaker 04

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:59:57Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:00:02Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:00:08Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:00:28Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, Study Mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 2:00:56Speaker 04

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:01:32Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:01:47Speaker 04

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:01:58Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:02:03Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:02:09Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 2:02:29Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:03:26Speaker 04

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis,

• 2:04:10Speaker 04

  while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 2:04:26Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 2:04:54Speaker 04

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.