E7: California's collapse, how SPACs are opening the markets for growth stocks & more

Follow the crew: https://twitter.com/chamath https://linktr.ee/calacanis https://twitter.com/DavidSacks https://twitter.com/friedberg Follow the pod: https://twitter.com/theallinpod https://bio.fm/theallinpod Bestie recommendations: Chamath: https://www.amazon.com/Americana-400-Year-History-American-Capitalism/dp/0399563792 Sacks: https://taibbi.substack.com/ https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/ Friedberg: https://www.amazon.com/Godfather-Mario-Puzo/dp/0451205766 https://www.amazon.com/Titan-Life-John-Rockefeller-Sr/dp/1400077303/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=john+d+rockefeller+titan&qid=1599625893&s=books&sr=1-1 https://www.amazon.com/Titan-Life-John-Rockefeller-Sr/dp/1400077303/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=john+d+rockefeller+titan&qid=1599625893&s=books&sr=1-1 Jason: https://www.amazon.com/Fish-That-Ate-Whale-Americas/dp/1250033314/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+fish+that+ate+the+whale&qid=1599625909&s=books&sr=1-1 https://www.amazon.com/Fish-That-Ate-Whale-Americas/dp/1250033314/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+fish+that+ate+the+whale&qid=1599625909&s=books&sr=1-1 https://www.amazon.com/I-Love-Capitalism-American-Story/dp/073521624X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=i+love+capitalism&qid=1599626013&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/I-Love-Capitalism-American-Story/dp/073521624X/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=i+love+capitalism&qid=1599626013&sr=8-1 0:00 The gang recap their summers 6:43 Is California collapsing? Why or why not? Has the one-party system failed? 14:05 Understanding the bureaucratic side of California's problem 20:37 AB-5 & the working rights of freelancers 27:11 How would AB-5 passing impact Uber & Lyft's long-term profitability & consumer experience, could franchising fix this? 34:45 California lagging in police reform, what tactical steps could be taken to stop deadly policing 46:13 Chamath on the most important economic event of the last decade & why he is now bullish on the market 50:46 Why technology companies should be going public sooner, how SPACs are allowing retail investors access to growth stocks 1:01:23 Election talk - who is in the lead ahead of the first debate? 1:12:21 Bestie recommendations

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jason Calacanis?

  Hey everybody, welcome back to the All In Podcast. Besties have reunited. It's been a bestie summer. Chamath, how are you doing? You're back in America, yes?

• 0:08Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I am back in America.

• 0:10Jason Calacanis?

  Back in America, feels great. Good summer, yes?

• 0:14Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I had an incredible summer. I had seven weeks in Italy. It was really incredible.

• 0:19Jason Calacanis?

  What is the vibe in Italy post pandemic? Obviously, they had the roughest of any nation, I think, except for China and Wuhan with COVID-19. How is the psyche there?

• 0:30Chamath Palihapitiya?

  No, it was incredible because they're, I mean, they're so resilient. They basically decided that they don't ever want to go through it again. So everybody wore a mask and people socially distanced. There's lots of dinners outside. No restaurants were really seating people indoors. You'd walk into a store and you'd have to put some, you know, Purell on your hands and wear a mask. And there was like, you know, 40, 50 cases a day. And then I keep looking at the news when I was there, 60,000 a day here. I was, it was just really, it was sad. And then on top of that, to see the riots, the fires, I mean, there's a, you know.

• 1:08Jason Calacanis?

  It's been a disturbing summer here. How are you doing, David Sacks? You're back in San Francisco and you got to spend a little bit of time in an undisclosed location, as we know from the last couple of episodes of the podcast. How is San Francisco right now? How has your bestie summer been?

• 1:25David Sacks?

  It's been great. Yeah, I was, I guess I can now disclose that my undisclosed location was, was Mexico, specifically Cabo. And that was, it was a great place to be for

• 1:37Jason Calacanis?

  Spoiler alert, nobody cares.

• 1:39David Sacks?

  Yeah, exactly. But actually, it was great. It was a great place to be in the early stages of the pandemic because everyone was wearing masks. You know, they did take it really seriously. And there were very few cases and seemed like it was under control, at least in the area I was. And then, you know, we came back to San Francisco for, for school, for, for the kids' school, which, you know, I'm not sure we have to be here, but, but that's, that's

• 2:06Jason Calacanis?

  And is the kids' school actually open? Are they going to school? Or they keep pushing it out two weeks like my kids are?

• 2:11David Sacks?

  Yeah, it's, we don't, they're not going in person yet, but I think they keep trying to figure out when they're going to be able to start doing that. So it's all Zoom based right now.

• 2:20Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, which means no learning, right? I mean, do you think these kids are actually learning on Zoom? Or do you think it's just glorified babysitting?

• 2:26David Sacks?

  A little bit. I mean, a little bit. I think it's, it's, it's difficult.

• 2:30Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, we gave up on it. And Free Burger, are you there?

• 2:34David Friedberg?

  I'm here, Bay Area.

• 2:36Jason Calacanis?

  How's your bestie summer been during this crazy time?

• 2:40David Friedberg?

  I've been in the Bay Area. I've been crossing all seven layers of Dante's Inferno here in California, moving from the outer layer of COVID to the middle layer of California's proposed wealth tax, to the inner layers of extreme heat, smoke, and the absolute central layer of pain. More recently, my three-year-old daughter decided 34 nights ago to not sleep anymore. So, um, yeah, we've been living, living the life. It's been glorious. And, um, you know, I wear a mask now for COVID, and then I wear another mask on top of that mask for the smoke. So we're just living the California dream. What my parents immigrated here for, you know, paradise.

• 3:24Jason Calacanis?

  Well, I guess that's a good place to start. And, um, just if anybody cares, I spent

• 3:31Jason Calacanis?

  had a great time. I guess nobody cares. Tell me how my bestie summer was.

• 3:35Chamath Palihapitiya?

  We forgot. Jason, how was your bestie summer?

• 3:40Jason Calacanis?

  You know, I've been lonely, and I tweeted, I'm lonely. And I got about 50 phone calls from people who are like, I can't imagine J Cal being sad, but I actually had a talk with my wife, and I said, what are the symptoms of depression? Because I think I might have depression. And I went through it. And I was like, I don't have depression. I'm just, I have great empathy for all the people suffering. And, you know, I just being isolated. You guys know me very well, better than anybody. Like, I like to talk to people. And it's been really difficult for me to, I'll be totally candid, to be isolated like this. And the podcast is, is great. And doing this podcast is great. But, man, I miss people. I just miss.

• 4:18Chamath Palihapitiya?

  What are the, what are the symptoms of your depression? Just before you were self-diagnosing. I'm just curious.

• 4:24Jason Calacanis?

  I was, I was feeling like just sad about watching the riots and watch people shoot each other and then watching, you know, the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily and then watching the madness for the election. It was just all becoming like, I wouldn't say overwhelming, but it just made me very sad that, you know, so many people can't go back to work and then the stock market's ripping and it's a very, I don't know how you guys feel, but it feels very surreal, right? Because in our world, and I don't know how your portfolios and investments are doing, you know, a lot of the companies we've invested in as angel investors are doing just wonderfully and we're investing more than ever, but then you turn on the television,

• 5:06Jason Calacanis?

  it's like the doom scrolling is crazy. So I had to just stop doom scrolling. I think that was the key thing, Chamath, was just looking at Twitter is that the trending topics is so depressing and just so overwhelming at times that I took three days off this weekend and went camping and I literally didn't pull up Twitter and I felt much better. So I think it's really Twitter related, like just opening up the trending topics. I don't know if you did that on your holiday in Italy, but it really is a quick way to get depressed.

• 5:34Chamath Palihapitiya?

  The best thing is that I was using it in a different time zone and so I was basically out of the flow and it makes a huge difference because then you're not in the emotional turmoil of people's immediate reaction. And so you can just kind of move on. And then also I just had a really fun summer because I really tried to detach and not use my phone. I had, you know, I kept my meetings to a few hours a day and then otherwise I was doing things.

• 6:05David Sacks?

  Yeah. You want to know, you want to know my phone call to Jake Al? It's like, hey, Jake Al, I saw on Twitter that you're sad and lonely. It's like, yeah, yeah. It's like, are you suicidal? It's like, no. Okay, goodbye.

• 6:20Jason Calacanis?

  I'm too much of a narcissist to ever consider that.

• 6:25Jason Calacanis?

  But I do, I do want to thank you, David, for having me down to Cabo and we got to have some good times, we watched some good movies Gladiator Extended Cut was great. Some other movies that we watched could get us canceled, so we won't admit that we watched History of the World or any other Mel Brooks movies, but we had a good time, played a couple rounds of golf and that was good times. But let's talk about California, because I think, you know, we're all residents currently of California. But let me just put it out there, how many people on the call are considering leaving California? Anybody, is that going through anybody's mind right now? Because it's going through mine.

• 7:00Chamath Palihapitiya?

  No. Well, it's not for me.

• 7:06Chamath Palihapitiya?

  But I think that California is sort of emblematic of what could happen if you actually have, you know, the legislative bodies plus, you know, the, the top sort of political leader up and down on one ticket. I mean, you know, you, you basically have like massive rife incompetence and it's been compounded. You never, I mean, you know, if people who are Democrats would have said, oh, the best thing that can happen for Democrats is if you have, you know, local cities plus an assembly plus the state senate, plus the governor as a Democrat. Republicans would have said the same thing for Republicans. But as it turns out, it basically creates the worst outcomes.

• 7:49Chamath Palihapitiya?

  And so instead, what you need is a little diversity of ideas and a little push and pull. But California is like a bunch of clowns in a clown car right now. It's a joke. But I'm not going to move. Now, a part of it, I'm not going to move is I, I, you know, my taxes I've set up in such a way where California can't get access to most of my assets anyway, so, you know, they can pound sand.

• 8:16Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, David, how are you, Sax, how are you feeling about California right now? And just the craziness in San Francisco, the homelessness problem in San Francisco has become acute during this. It's really

• 8:29David Sacks?

  Well, it's a disaster.

• 8:30Jason Calacanis?

  And then the wealth tax on top of it and

• 8:32David Sacks?

  It's, it's a disaster. It's a disaster. I mean, I'm not, I'm not leaving or anything, but it's certainly a topic of conversation that's come up a lot. And I do know people who have left. I know a couple of people who, you know, prominent people in the venture community who've recently moved to Austin. And it's a horrible time for the, the city and state to be proposing all these new taxes. As just take one example, because people are already realizing that because of COVID and, and this new sort of work from home and, and Zoom business culture where you can kind of work from anywhere, that people are realizing they don't need to be in San Francisco or in Silicon Valley anymore to be,

• 9:14David Sacks?

  you know, in the technology industry. And so at precisely the time that people were reevaluating where they wanted to be, realizing that they could be anywhere. California is now, you know, proposing to massively increase the cost of being here. So it's, it's horrible timing. And then, you know, you do have this sort of seemingly chronic issue in San Francisco, particularly with, with the sort of homeless problem. It just seems to keep getting worse. And there's, there's sort of this weird hostility to technology and tech workers here that I think is somehow used as a scapegoat to prevent the city from dealing with its real problems.

• 9:55Jason Calacanis?

  And what do you perceive those real problems to be in, in the city? I mean, you use the term homeless. I think most people looking at the problem, as one person candidly told me, you know, what we have is not, and I wouldn't say who said this, but it's a prominent person. They said this, you know, Jason, the, the issue here is this isn't a homeless problem. This is a junkie problem. And they use specifically that I'm using that term because that's the term to refer to people who are addicted to opioids, methamphetamine, fentanyl. And that if you were to actually unpack what we're calling a homeless crisis, it's actually a crisis of drug addiction. And specifically fentanyl, and I don't know if you guys saw that we're going to hit something like 500 overdose deaths this year. We're like going to double last year and it's all fentanyl. Which is a particularly, you know, deadly drug. So, I mean, how much you think that is the problem, David?

• 10:41David Sacks?

  Huge, I mean, it's, it's, you're right that homelessness is not the, the, the cause of the issue. The homelessness is the consequence of long-term drug addiction and mental illness. I mean, this is the, it's the end state. And you're right, the city is, it's not really tackling the underlying issues. In fact, it's kind of aiding and abetting them. I mean, how many millions of needles does a city give away every year and then it only collects a small fraction of them, with the remainder ending up on the streets? It's just, it's bonkers. And I think part of the problem is that we keep saying that until we, it,

• 11:21David Sacks?

  is that we can't demand any improvement in the situation in terms of homeless people. You know, we have this like poop squad in, in San Francisco that's literally cleaning poop off the sidewalks because homeless people are using our sidewalks as, as like a latrine, basically, as a bathroom. And, and you, what you keep hearing is that, well, we can't do anything about that problem until we solve the homeless problem. And that's a, and certainly we should try to solve that problem, but it's a very long-term, you know, difficult and tractable problem. In the meantime, we can certainly do things like demand that homeless people not do that.

• 11:58Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, and the policing seem to, there seems to be a distinct issue with policing right now. I, I watched the San Francisco Tenderloin Twitter account, David Friedberg, and they've arrested something like 260 meth, meth and fentanyl dealers. But we have a DA, Chesa, I believe his name is, who doesn't believe in prosecuting any of those crimes related to drugs or petty crime. Friedberg, what has the city turned into for you as somebody who's been a long-term investor in the Bay Area?

• 12:30David Friedberg?

  Well, I moved here after I graduated college in 2001, and I loved San Francisco. It was, it was a quieter city and a quainter city. I honestly, over the years, have found the traffic and the congestion and the buildup of the city to be frustrating. I'm a little bit of a anomaly in this sense, because I think a lot of people, you know, think that the city should continue to grow and progress and, and build housing and so on. Those are all. Uh, you know, find objectives, but I think the quality of life has degraded for some time in the city as as infrastructure hasn't kept up with the uh, the changing pace of of uh, companies growing here. Um, and as a result, we've kind of got this ballooning, inflating budget that's been poorly managed. You've got um,

• 13:12David Friedberg?

  I forgot the statistic, but there's um, some number of thousand people plus that are city government employees in San Francisco earning over three hundred thousand dollars a year. Um, and so there there's a, there's a chronic kind of bureaucratic issue. Um, that is the cancer that has caused, uh, you know, a lot of the follow-on crises that I think we're we're now experiencing acutely here in the city. Now, in terms of leaving to your earlier question, I, you know, um, I I was really like, I've just been like everyone, you know, like the, I call it kind of talk about the li- the Dante Inferno layers. It's also like, for me, growing up, it's like a seven-layer burrito. It's like one layer of shit after another. Um, start with the beans and in the middle you got the sour cream and,

• 13:54David Friedberg?

  um, you know, this city's just gotten, um, kind of, and the state has gotten more and more difficult to live in and I s- and I was certainly thinking and talking to my wife, like, we gotta leave, her family's here, so so we're not gonna leave the state. But then I get a call last week that uh, that I think eighteen of us were on with Governor Newsom. And, um, you know, he he made a couple of really interesting points that really did honestly reset my perspective. Uh, you know, I I've tried to take a step back and and think a little bit more broadly about the long-term opportunity in California. The way this state operates uh, right now, i- i- it's the fifth-largest economy in the world. They ran a surplus, they're refinancing their debt, they've done a great job kind of managing kind of the fiscal gap that that's that's being created by the COVID crisis.

• 14:35David Friedberg?

  Um, and, you know, Governor Newsom made a point, like, we have had the California exodus story that's percolated and cycled really for decades. Uh, he pointed out an article which I've not been able to find, but I've been looking for it from Time Magazine from nineteen fifty-nine that were like declared, this is the year everyone's gonna exodus out of the state. And we hear it every couple of years, there's some crisis that precipitates the mass exodus. And it hasn't happened because it is a great place to work, it's diversified industrial base. It's not just tech. Tech is a lot of the growth, but there's a a lot of industry here, largest ag producer, largest um,

• 15:10David Friedberg?

  uh, large military aerospace industry and on and on and on. Uh, this is a, it's a great um diversified economy, it's a great diversified cultural base, it's it's by the oceans, it's by the mountains, it's an incredible place to live and work and. I don't think any of us want to give that up. And, uh, and the, the, the media has done a great job kind of, um, magnifying these, these small stories that aren't really a story. Governor Yousa made the case that this wealth tax proposal, you know, was one assembly member. It didn't even get into committee. It wasn't even really being considered, but it kind of created this, this press flourish and everyone got involved and everyone I know kind of freaked out about it. And it became this kind of another catalyzing event, but it wasn't really real. So if we kind of broaden our perspective a little bit, both in terms of space and time,

• 15:55David Friedberg?

  I, I think we get a little more kind of comfortable with like of all the places to live and all the places to work, this is the best. And you can negotiate some taxes and move to Austin, but I mean, then you gotta go live in Austin, you know, whatever.

• 16:05David Sacks?

  Well, it's, it's, it's the best, it's the best. You're, you're right that it's the best in terms of climate, geography, natural beauty, uh, resources and the industries that have developed here and have, you know, strong network effects, but it's not the best politically. I mean, it's among the worst politically and it seems like the politicians are doing everything they can to mess it up. I mean, I almost wonder if there's like a resource curse issue, particularly with San Francisco where, you know, there's this thing and, and, um, I mean, this, this observable thing with governments that, um, that sometimes you get a resource curse where if there's like a lot of oil in the country or something, uh, you end up with, with a government that's not very good because people just spend all their time going to war to try and capture it.

• 16:48David Sacks?

  And I kind of wonder if, you know, San Francisco has been the beneficiary of being proximate to Silicon Valley, this enormous like wealth creation, prosperity, job creation, um, ecosystem that had nothing to do with creating.

• 17:01Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Yeah. I would say two things to build on what you're saying. Um, the first is I think that when the economies in an environment are really, really good, all the really, really smart people want to go into those economies and that leaves generally dumber people to do things like politics. So, uh, and that's less true in places that have shittier economies.

• 17:25David Friedberg?

  Yeah.

• 17:25Chamath Palihapitiya?

  And, and I, and I actually think that that's, that's practically true. We may not want to think it and it may not, it may sound a little harsh, but it's true. And, you know, the, the way that you reverse it is what Singapore does, which is you make the civil servants, the highest paid people in the economy. Right, and you treat them like knowledge workers and you say, wow, look, I'm gonna pay this person $250,000, $300,000 a year, you're shocked at the quality of the person you get. That's the first comment I want to make. The second one, though, is that unlike all these other times where I think people have been, you know, sort of prognosticating the doom and gloom of California, the thing that's different now is that because it is such

• 18:06Chamath Palihapitiya?

  a dominant political environment for the Democrats, it's much easier to judge if they actually know what they're doing. And if they are going to do things that are aligned with the, sort of like, the moral code of the party that elected them. And so, like, let's just talk, for example, about the fact that we are not going to have police reform of any kind in California, which is where you'd think would be the first state where people got their act together and said, okay, if we really believe that we need to reform police, we can do it in our own backyards, but that legislation is gonna get blocked because Californians have decided that they care more about the alignment to police unions

• 18:50Chamath Palihapitiya?

  than they do to the right of law and to social justice for minorities and blacks. That's crazy.

• 18:56Jason Calacanis?

  We should be the most progressive, is your point on this, Chamath. And the point is, to say it explicitly, is the politicians are in the pocket of the unions. And because they're in the pocket of the police unions and the education unions, we cannot make forward progress, even though we're supposed to be the most liberal of all locations, correct? That's in summary?

• 19:15Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Yeah, exactly. We actually, if we believe that we have, you know, up and down the ticket, the ability to implement justice, right? At least justice in the vein of the Democratic Party and what that platform represents. Or, for example, all of the people that were out protesting, okay, during Black Lives Matter, during that entire movement, I suspect the overwhelming majority are Democrats slash progressives.

• 19:41Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Or, you know, let's just say the majority, or at a minimum the plurality. Okay. But then the idea that then you have a state, the most populous and the richest, filled up and down the ticket with people who are theoretically aligned with those political values. But then when push comes to shove and the legislation hits the floor, it basically gets mothballed, to me is inexcusable and disgusting.

• 20:05Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah. I mean, look at the housing issue. We just had a bill that was incredibly simple bill. I think it was 11. Yeah, SB 1120, I don't know if you followed this one, but I've been following it on the Twitter. And it was a very simple piece of legislation. Any single family home lot could have a duplex on it. So you could have two homes on a single lot. And they couldn't even pass that in a city where, you know, a firefighter, a teacher, et cetera, cannot live within 90 minutes of where they work. And they couldn't even pass that.

• 20:37David Sacks?

  Well, also, there's, there's also AB5, right? I mean, Jason has Uber's third or fourth investor.

• 20:43Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 20:43David Sacks?

  I'm sure you have something to say about that, right?

• 20:45Jason Calacanis?

  Well, tell me third or fourth. I think third or fourth, but here we go to the VC Brags controversy.

• 20:52David Sacks?

  Can we just, yeah, could we just, can we just pin down exactly which one it is? So you could just say you're the fourth investor or something like that?

• 20:58Jason Calacanis?

  It's so much better to say third or fourth. And that was my schtick, obviously. But, you know, AB5 is another one. Look at all the careers in which you can be, David Sacks, a freelancer. And the high, the more money you make, the more you get to dictate your schedule. But if you are poor, and if you are in an entry level job, the California government will not let you, even though 70% of drivers for these services want to be freelancers. And the services themselves said they will put into a fund for healthcare. Like they literally Uber, you know, Dara is like, hey, we're going to put money into this. Lyft is going to put money into it. They still will not let people decide for themselves what shift they want. It makes no sense. I mean,

• 21:40David Friedberg?

  And it trickled into like journalists too. I mean, there's they said now journalists, if you write if you if you write 30 articles a year for a single outlet, you're technically considered an employee, even though you're writing the articles on your own time with your own research and you're getting paid for successful article for good articles that are accepted. And then there was this follow on controversy about translators. It's like, well, translators takes five minutes to translate an article. So why would 30 articles apply to a translator? And it obviously, when you have that degree of confusion and complexity, something's off, right?

• 22:11Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, and it feels like virtue signaling. Yeah.

• 22:14David Sacks?

  Yeah. Well, I think, well, I mean, the reason why AB5 happened is it was at the behest of the Teamsters, right? They're trying to unionize the Uber and Lyft drivers and they can't do it unless they're employees. And so, you know, the the author of the the bill, Lorena Gonzalez, who's sort of in their back pocket, you know, that that's why she put forward the bill. And then the absurdity of it was that, you know, they realized after introducing it that it would ensnare all these other occupations, like the writers and journalists and photographers and translators. Yeah, even like people like manicurists and so on. Right. And so what they've been doing is they've been now modifying the legislation to exclude all of these categories. And in the process, they're kind of laying bare

• 22:59David Sacks?

  what's really happening here, which is this is all about either basically shutting down or forcing Uber and Lyft to comply with with the will of the Teamsters.

• 23:10Jason Calacanis?

  And it seems like the legislation blinked when Uber and Lyft said, well, we'll just shut the service down. So what were your thoughts on when that happened, Sax? What do you think will happen? Who who will win this AB5 showdown?

• 23:22David Sacks?

  Well, the what Uber and Lyft, yeah, they threatened to basically stop service and they got a stay, I think, from a judge. So so AB5 doesn't go into effect until November when and there's a ballot initiative that they're sponsoring to get AB5 overturned. So. I think, you know, I don't, I don't, it's hard to predict whether it's going to win or not, but that to me is like, whether, if AB5 were defeated by a ballot initiative in November, that'd be a really positive sign for the state of California.

• 23:51David Friedberg?

  I'll say there was, on this call with Governor Newsom last week, he did point out that AB5 was more of kind of a law of inevitability as a result of that whole Dynamex state Supreme Court decision where the, you know, the Supreme Court basically said, look, here's the criteria that defines an employee versus an independent contractor. You know, they get to decide what work they do or what hours or whatever. And there was like some set of criteria and they said, look, Uber drivers and all these other kind of technically independent contractors don't meet those criteria fully, therefore they are employees. And as a result, California Assembly tried to and had to effectively codify what it means to be an employee versus an independent contractor. And I'm not arguing for the case. I'm just saying what was conveyed

• 24:35David Friedberg?

  by the governor last week on why this ended up coming to bear. Now, if they strike it down, there's going to be some other law that's going to pop up because of the state Supreme, the Dynamex decision. And that's kind of, you know, something's going to have to get written down. So Sax, don't you think it ultimately ends up just being some sort of negotiated point between all of these industry leaders and, you know, the state to kind of figure out, okay, what's everyone going to compromise on to get something written down that's law?

• 25:01David Sacks?

  I mean, possibly. I mean, Dynamex is not like constitutional. It's not a constitutional decision. So the legislature can do whatever it wants here, you know? And so if you were going to respond to Dynamex, you don't have to kind of enshrine it. So, and I guess there was certainly some question whether Dynamex would apply to Uber and Lyft in this way.

• 25:26David Sacks?

  You know, they could have made, they could have made their arguments in front of a court, right?

• 25:31Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Okay, look, the problem is now, and whatever applies to California applies to every state legislature. How are these people supposed to figure this out? I'm sorry, but like, you know, who are we entrusting here to go and then all of a sudden understand the nuances of Lyft and Uber and really understand the job that they do versus the translators versus the this person versus the that person versus the Dynamex decision? Again, I think 20 years ago, I kind of would have believed that politicians were generally some of the smartest people, you know, frankly amongst us. And it really did attract a certain level of intellectual person who cared about legislating.

• 26:13Chamath Palihapitiya?

  But, you know, now, basically, you just have like, you know, Jerry Falwell Jr.'s running around. I mean, these are, they're all just running around until they get caught on Instagram and get fired. I mean, they're just, they're not the smartest people that we're dealing with. And so what was Gavin Newsom's answer to that? It's really what I would...

• 26:32David Friedberg?

  You know, the Jerry Falwell Jr. point didn't come up too much, but we can follow up. Sure.

• 26:38Jason Calacanis?

  It does seem to me that if they do become full-time, this would be a tragedy for the people who are trying to just do 10 to 20 to 30 hours of gig work. Like, what happens to those poor people who wanted to fill in between when they dropped their kids off of school and picked them up and just grab a couple hours here or there as a second gig? Like, if this actually does pass and they're full-time...

• 27:04Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Honestly, guys, honestly, you guys are such, you're, you're, you're, honestly, look, it won't affect them. It'll affect the long-term profitability and the margins of the companies that have to hire them as full-time employees and they'll have to like, you know, make a bunch of rules and blah, blah, blah. But it has huge operational implications and it has really terrible OpEx implications for a company. But for the person that wants to work 10 hours, Jason, they'll still be able to work 10 hours. So I think, I think the point is that like...

• 27:32Jason Calacanis?

  On a specific shift. Like, they're gonna have to come in at a certain shift time.

• 27:36Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I think the point is, like, the entire public markets, who all of a sudden think that a business looks one way, has to figure out that it's really a cost-plus business. And what it really means is if you were comfortable with a 60% or 70% reduction in the market cap of some of these companies, you'd be okay with AB5. And I think that's where the tension is, where the people that made the law don't care about the market cap because they don't own the stock anyways. And the people that are reacting to AB5 are the ones that own the stock and are really thinking about the market cap.

• 28:07David Sacks?

  Well, but the drivers, the drivers honestly own the stock and they're against it.

• 28:11Chamath Palihapitiya?

  No, the drivers own eight shares, David. I mean, come on.

• 28:13David Sacks?

  No, no, no. That's what I'm saying is they're not shareholders for the most part. But this really does reduce their flexibility to contract for their labor.

• 28:23Chamath Palihapitiya?

  No, but I think what you're saying will happen, which is that they will create a, you know, AB5 prime, which is a modification that's neither this nor what it was. Uh, but it seems that the tailwinds are pretty clear, which is that we're moving to a place where these companies have to get built in a very clever way. And even if they are super clever in capturing consumer demand, the unit economics are going to be pretty shitty. And I just think we have to own that. And, and it probably what it means more than anything else is it's not a real venture kind of business. And so you may be deficit financing it or building it in a very different way than we used to.

• 29:02David Sacks?

  Right. But it doesn't have to be that way. What you're saying is, is I think that this law will have very adverse consequences for their business. Okay. I mean, I grant you that. Um, but it's, it's why is the, the state interfering in the relationship between Uber and its drivers in this way when everyone's happy with it?

• 29:19Chamath Palihapitiya?

  No, but it's not. I think what actually is happening is the state is effectively capturing the excess return of Uber and Lyft. Meaning I think if you just take a pure, unemotional economic view at this, it's like any other market. If there's a huge amount of margin available and there are not many competitors, what happens is somebody comes in to take the excess margin.

• 29:40Jason Calacanis?

  And you think that's the government that wants to take it and the unions want to take it?

• 29:44Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Absolutely.

• 29:45Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 29:45Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Absolutely.

• 29:46Jason Calacanis?

  And so the question is, should we, should we let them then dictate what hours people work?

• 29:50Chamath Palihapitiya?

  The thought exercise that I would ask guys, if there was in a market 90 different competitors for transportation.

• 29:58Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Would AB5 have been written, passed, adopted? And my answer to you would be that it would not have been.

• 30:06Jason Calacanis?

  So Uber and Lyft's and DoorDash's success is what leads to people wanting to get a cut and get a slice?

• 30:12Chamath Palihapitiya?

  The oligopolist model of success where not enough other companies are pulled through.

• 30:17Jason Calacanis?

  Got it. Well, that gives us a good segue into.

• 30:19Chamath Palihapitiya?

  By the way, sorry, last point on this. And the funny thing is the people who created the problem are the ones that hate it the most, which are the investors. Because they pile in the incremental dollars into the winners, trying to king make a winner through capital. And now what's happening is their rate of returns are basically getting taken away. And I think that in a weird way, that's also kind of fair.

• 30:41David Sacks?

  Well, I would just disagree slightly in the sense that just because this has big distributional consequences, like basically who makes the surplus, doesn't mean it also doesn't have a huge deadweight loss associated with it. And whenever you prohibit people from engaging in the type of economic contracts or relationship that they want to engage in, you're reducing surplus. And so I hear what you're saying, but and I think there is, I think this is all about regulatory capture, right? This is the Teamsters trying to capture a big piece of the value of Uber through their politicians in the legislature. So you're right about that, but I also think that we should care about it, not just as Uber shareholders,

• 31:25David Sacks?

  but as consumers of the product, because it's going to get worse.

• 31:29Jason Calacanis?

  Well, and also the product's going to go away in certain jurisdictions. I mean, if Friedberg wants to get an Uber north of the Golden Gate Bridge or in the East Bay somewhere, they're just not going to have the economics in some communities to even operate the service. So just like Uber Eats and Postmates stopped delivering to Treasure Island, a lot of the drivers were in their local communities at home with Uber turned on. And when they, or DoorDash, and when they got a call, they would leave their house. And that was part of the magic of it is you can just be sitting there, you know, Netflixing or hanging out with your kids. And then a good call comes in and then you leave your house. That's why you would have that like one minute pause, if you ever saw it, you know, in an Uber ride where it's like, why, why isn't the car moving? It's because that person's at home. And they were capturing the one ride every hour in their local, you know.

• 32:15Jason Calacanis?

  Suburban area, but if you force them to be hourly, Uber's gonna say, you know what? It's not worth having an eight-hour shift in, you know, whatever suburb and the service will go away. And then guess who's gonna not have service and transportation?

• 32:27Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I think Friedberg.

• 32:29Jason Calacanis?

  No, go ahead.

• 32:29David Friedberg?

  Sorry, I was saying it was like Sax's point, like, you know, from a consumer perspective, or Chamath's point, if you end up with 90 of these service providers, and I'm a consumer, I'm less likely to order a cab or order a rideshare service, or I'm less likely to order food for delivery. I don't want to deal with 50 fucking apps. I don't want to have to like, go find the one app that has the contract with the one restaurant. Then the natural market dynamics, the way that the market naturally evolves is I want simplicity as a consumer, I want efficiency, that's what makes me want to use it more. And when you take that away, because you're interfering from a regulatory perspective and how that market operates, the product sucks for me. And the shareholders ultimately suffer.

• 33:10Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I think to your point, the way that that would probably get solved is you have people that are higher order in the consumer behavior, that own these relationships that enforce basically a user experience. For example, Facebook and Google and Apple essentially say, we're abstracting all these services because there's 90 of you. Google says, I'm going to put all of you guys on the map view. You know, Yelp says the same thing. And essentially what opens, what happens is there's some like, open way where essentially a service provider can turn themselves on and broadcast into a network that says, I'm available to do A for B, and it all gets fixed. Now, that's a future state.

• 33:53Jason Calacanis?

  Which was the original idea of Uber, by the way, was to make a marketplace like that. And now Uber's talking about doing a franchise, exactly what you're saying, Chamath, is let some franchisee take the East Bay and then provide their inventory to the Uber network.

• 34:05Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I think franchising is a really, really smart business idea. And I think that particularly in transportation, and a lot of these services that have this natural dynamic to be local, where there are an infinite sum of many local markets, I think it's like a Burger King, it's like a McDonald's. And the company that moves to a franchising model and then figures it out, I think will be a huge winner. And that will be, and that will be a very asset-light, really operationally sophisticated, very well-run, highly profitable business, I think.

• 34:43Jason Calacanis?

  Let's talk about the public markets.

• 34:44Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Wait, Jason, can we just talk about the police brutality thing in California? I just want to get your guys' take.

• 34:49Jason Calacanis?

  Sure, let's do it.

• 34:49Chamath Palihapitiya?

  It really bothers me that California, like, I bet you there's going to be states that are diverse in its democratic and republican composition and some republican states

• 35:03Chamath Palihapitiya?

  that pass comprehensive police reform and California will be one of the laggards.

• 35:09Jason Calacanis?

  What do you think, if you could wave a magic wand, Chamath, what are the one, two, and three things, take a minute to think it through, and everybody in the call can, what are the one, two, and three things you would do to change policing in the United States? I have my own list, but I'm curious what you guys think, and I actually put a tweet storm out about my number one thing.

• 35:28Jason Calacanis?

  What are the specific tactical things? Let's get tactical first.

• 35:31Chamath Palihapitiya?

  The first one that I've always been a big fan of, as I've studied it at least from 10,000 feet, is ending qualified immunity.

• 35:38Jason Calacanis?

  Explain why and what that is.

• 35:40Chamath Palihapitiya?

  You know, qualified immunity is essentially that there is this immunity that certain individuals have and that they're not subject to prosecution. And so, you know, they essentially have a carte blanche to behave in ways that can be good in some cases, very, very bad in other cases, gray in other cases, yet there's no adjudication of their behavior. And so, you have to allow people with solid, dispassionate, detached judgment to be able to enter and say, hey, listen, you are way out of line here, and there are consequences for it. And people coming in, doing those jobs, need to understand those consequences versus you have a carte blanche to basically do whatever you want. And I think that that-

• 36:23Jason Calacanis?

  Let's talk specifically about the shooting involving, I won't say murder right now, because I think all the facts are not in, but Jacob Blake was shot in the back. He was obviously not listening to the police. The police then followed him to his car. There is a discussion of if there was a knife on the floorboard, and point blank, they shot him in the back multiple times. And I've heard both sides of this. You know, this person is not listening to the police. This person's going into the car. They're reaching potentially for a weapon, and the cops had no choice. It seemed to me that, you know- The training of a police officer might actually be that that was a legitimate shooting. Um, but that means maybe they have to rethink policing because you could have easily taken

• 37:06Jason Calacanis?

  that person down with even the most modest of a chokehold or a tackle. Um, and when we see that, it feels like that's the raw shock test right there of like how you look at shootings um in in police when you saw that shooting, I take it, Chamath? Of J. Blake?

• 37:19Chamath Palihapitiya?

  And I I saw it and I I just like, I I can't see these anymore. They they send me off the rails for days. Uh, but yeah, I did see it.

• 37:27Jason Calacanis?

  I did see it. Yeah. And so, I mean, when you when you look at something like that, that's clearly training has to change because I I I believe that based on police training and qualified immunity, this is going to be considered, even though it's shocking to see it, I think it's going to be considered um, you know, an allowed shooting or?

• 37:47Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Yeah.

• 37:47Jason Calacanis?

  And it's there's not going to, the person's not going to be prosecuted because the person was clearly not listening and there was a knife on the floor and he was going for it. And, you know, it seems to me like we really need to change the actual training. The average is six months of training. So I think that's one of the top things that has to change is that these these police officers have to be trained not to fire first, but to to to use other tactics.

• 38:07Chamath Palihapitiya?

  So so for me, the first one is that. The second one for me, which I'm a really big fan of, is that there needs to be a new way to actually intercept 911 calls. And instead of um deploying police officers, we have a separate branch of people that we, you know, massively pay and train that are effectively, you know, social workers plus plus.

• 38:30Jason Calacanis?

  Negotiators, yeah.

• 38:31Chamath Palihapitiya?

  And and they should be deployed in all kinds of situations um where I think that what what people want is a de-escalation. And I think that sometimes the words de-escalation and police don't really sync up. And in most, a lot of people's minds, they think of escalation.

• 38:50Jason Calacanis?

  Yep.

• 38:51Chamath Palihapitiya?

  So people who are trained to de-escalate, I think, uh, and so, for example, like, you know, all of the uh, mental health checks, all of the mental health issues um could probably be dealt with folks like this.

• 39:03Jason Calacanis?

  Domestic domestic disturbances would probably go into that category.

• 39:05Chamath Palihapitiya?

  The the third one is I would very much rationalize uh, drug use. Um, just because I think the amount of low-level offenses and arrests around drug use is antiquated for people's general views on drugs. Um, and I think that it needs to sort of correlate to how society views it. And then Um, you know, the, the, the last two that I would give you is that there's a concept of no knock warrants. That's how Breonna Taylor was killed.

• 39:31Jason Calacanis?

  It's insane.

• 39:32Chamath Palihapitiya?

  It's, it's kind of really scary, the idea that we could all be sitting in our houses right now as we are. And literally the police can just charge in.

• 39:40Jason Calacanis?

  I mean, totally unnecessarily. I mean, she was being for, for some like low level drug idea. They're going to knock the doors in and of course the person's going to try to protect themselves. That's, that's, Sax, what, what are your thoughts on?

• 39:52David Sacks?

  They knocked, they knocked the doors in and they were plain clothes wearing police officers. So people are coming and, and, and they did it at like midnight when she was asleep. So yeah, people busting into her house at midnight, screaming, making noise and not dressed as cops. That's, that's a crazy situation. Yeah.

• 40:10Chamath Palihapitiya?

  And then the last one I would give you is militarization of police. Um, a lot of these ideas, by the way, are Justin Amash's ideas. I, I've retweeted and I followed, but he was the one that put me onto these things. Um, but you know, like you have all this excess military equipment in the army that gets basically passed through and now directly sold into police departments.

• 40:27Jason Calacanis?

  Especially post nine 11, we, we basically militarized them.

• 40:30Chamath Palihapitiya?

  So those are my ideas.

• 40:31Jason Calacanis?

  What are, what are your ideas around policing and how we should change it? You've heard Chamath's.

• 40:35David Sacks?

  I, I, I don't have more detailed ideas than, than Chamath. I think he's given some good ones, um, for sure. I mean, I think we definitely need better training and I think better oversight over the use of force. Um, the, the, the body cam idea, Jason, I've seen you, you tweet about, I think that's pretty interesting too. Um, I think you're right.

• 40:54Jason Calacanis?

  Explain that for a minute. The, the body cam idea I had was I asked, does anybody know? And you know, does Black Lives Matter or another organization track which police departments? Cause we could get a list of every police department that exists in some database somewhere. Do we actually know what percentage actually have body cams and what model they use? And what percentage are working? Because one of the things that I think has happened this year is, you know, the live streaming and the, the live video and the number of smartphones out there has resulted in us being able to see what black and brown people have been telling us for decades, which is they're murdered by cops. And now we get to see it and you know, when you see George Floyd get murdered, it's, it's fairly obvious that that's what happened. We don't have a video, or they, and they have the video of Breonna Taylor getting murdered. So that's from a cop webcam.

• 41:40Jason Calacanis?

  I'm sorry, body cam. So I was thinking we should just start with that as a basic, which is every single cop car should have a 360 degree camera in every cop. It should be a federal mandate. And I don't exactly know how federal mandates work, Sacks, but don't you think there should be a federal mandate for just cameras and car cameras?

• 41:56David Sacks?

  I think it's a good idea. I think the use of cameras is a good idea. Um, I mean, maybe not recording the police officers when they're sitting in their car, but every time there's like a, you know, like, yeah, they pull somebody over, sort of, you know, like Fourth Amendment type search and seizure seizure type situation. Yeah, I think it would make sense to have that on video. Why not?

• 42:16Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, I mean, I think you gotta think every police will behave better. Go ahead, Friedberg.

• 42:20David Friedberg?

  Um, there was a case the other day, a young guy, I think he was 19 years old, was shot in DC named Dion Kay. I don't know if any of you guys watched the body cam footage. Um, and so he was a 19 year old black man who was shot, died. Um, but in the body cam footage, you can see that he pulls out this gun and throws it. And when he pulls out the gun and flings his hand around, he's got the gun in his hand. That's when the cop shot him. And so there was about 100 protesters that showed up, but it's largely become a non-story as a result of the facts associated with the body cam footage. But I just want to propose something else. It's a little bit more radical. Maybe my libertarian ideals kind of cross with my socialist ideals and forming this this concept, but perhaps.

• 43:03Jason Calacanis?

  You're a socialist?

• 43:04David Friedberg?

  No, yeah, I don't know. I've never been accused of that, but um, if we uh, if we trace back, you know, the uh, these systems are really chaotic. Everything you're talking about is layers and layers of bureaucracy and ideas and shit we should do to manage the problem. But there is kind of one common, you know, butterfly effect, butterflies at the source of all of a lot of what we're talking about, which is guns. If there weren't any guns in the United States, I would not feel threatened as a police officer. I would never have any reason to feel threatened, and I would never have any reason to pull a gun. The reason I always make to pull a gun as a police officer is my life is threatened. And in the absence of firearms, I have no right to pull a gun. And that's the case in like the UK, for example,

• 43:47David Friedberg?

  where there are like no police officer shootings of civilians, because they're never under threat of being killed by a gun. So there's a simple answer, which is get rid of the guns, but you know, a little too controversial and um, obviously many layers uh, to that argument. Um, especially from kind of both sides. But I would say, um,

• 44:08David Friedberg?

  You know, much, much of what's going to go on now and in the future is just chaos theory. It's going to be building more layers of complexity. It's more entropy. It's more kind of associated complexity to try and resolve the underlying problem of all of this, which is that we've got guns on the streets. We've got guns in people's hands. And therefore, you know, there's always this threat against every individual that their life might be taken by another.

• 44:29David Sacks?

  Well, let me make a prediction right now. There's not going to be any new gun control legislation for a generation because of the looting and rioting that's going on. Gun sales are at an all time high. I mean, every single gun store that

• 44:42Jason Calacanis?

  Ammunition is sold out, right?

• 44:44David Sacks?

  You can't, you can't get guns. You can't get ammo. And there are more first time gun buyers in the United States in the last several months than there's ever been. I mean, the, the ranks of the NRA must just be swelling right now. And so, so this idea that you're going to get gun reform, I don't think it's going to happen. People aren't going to support it. And, you know, I think, you know, use the word, I think, idealistic. I mean, I, I, I think it's like a little bit naive to assume that you're going to be able to get rid of all the guns in the hands of bad actors. There are a lot of people in this country who feel the need to have a gun to protect themselves. And, you know, the cops can't always get there quickly enough. And a lot of people feel the need to, to have that for self-defense.

• 45:29Jason Calacanis?

  I also think the minimum amount of training for a police officer should not be six months. I think they have to re, I mean, if we really want to have the society move forward and, you know, to solve our issue of race, which is, you know, like the original sin of America, we're, we're going to really need to start thinking about making, you know, police go back to school for 18 months, 12 months and rethink how we, how we address the situation because it's, it's just tragically unfair that one group of people's children has to worry when they're driving in a car and, you know, other people on this call don't have to worry. Right? And, you know, that is just crazy. Let, let's take a hard shift to the economy and then we'll go into the election. What do you think, Chamath?

• 46:14Jason Calacanis?

  You've been talking a little bit about the economy and the stock market ripping again, and we seem to have hit a pause. But we did have like a massive rip with Tesla and Amazon, Tesla and Apple, I guess, doing a stock split. And we hit all time records. Why are we hitting all time records, Chamath?

• 46:30Chamath Palihapitiya?

  We have the most important thing that's happened, I think, in economics in the last 10 years. The Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, gave this landmark speech and he basically said, "We are going to keep rates at zero for the next half decade."

• 46:45Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Basically, and

• 46:46Jason Calacanis?

  Five years at zero, yeah.

• 46:48Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I mean, quite honestly, it could be a decade, but they're going to let inflation run before they basically match it with rates. There's no path to any near-term inflation of any kind whatsoever. And so, Jason, my honest perspective is, you know, you're basically going to get paid to be long equities because your risk-free rate is zero and will soon be negative. And what are you supposed to do if you're an asset manager? What are you supposed to do if, you know, you're, take California back to Houston, California. Let's just say you're Calpers, you're the California pension system and you have hundreds of billions

• 47:28Chamath Palihapitiya?

  of dollars, then you need to generate 5% or 6% a year to make sure that your pension isn't insolvent and the government is paying you zero.

• 47:39Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, so that eliminates that option. No treasuries for you.

• 47:42Chamath Palihapitiya?

  You're long equities. And when everybody is in that situation, you're overwhelmingly long equities and, you know, the, you cannot fight the Fed and so you cannot wait them out. It's not like you can say, "Oh, don't worry, they're going to change their mind." They will change their mind, but in reaction to market conditions that are out of your control. So, all of these opportunities, in my opinion, are generally buying opportunities and I'm generally bullish. I'm more bullish now than I was before.

• 48:12Jason Calacanis?

  So, you can't put your money into treasuries, you can't put it into a savings account, obviously. You can't put it, you, you, it doesn't seem like real estate or commercial real estate is a great bet right now. So, your options are private companies or public companies, correct, Joma?

• 48:28Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I think it really is just public companies and I don't even think it's private companies. So meaning wherever capital is constrained, the returns, again, these excess returns are getting eaten up. And so the most unimpeded market for gains right now is the public markets. I mean, like, no offense, but I think that if you were a very good stock picker in the public markets, you're generating better returns than Sequoia, Benchmark, name your best venture fund. You know, I see all these people spouting off on Twitter about how good they are in the early stage markets. It's all kind of small dollars and not that meaningful.

• 49:05Jason Calacanis?

  You know I'm on the call, right?

• 49:09Jason Calacanis?

  I'm on the call. I mean, you're literally talking to the guys spouting off about hitting over. Sax, what are your thoughts on this? Like, private markets, obviously, is the op where we operate, both Davids, Friedberg and Sax. And you're seeing great deals, I think. I've invested in twice as many companies during the pandemic as I did before it in the same six month period. What are you seeing in the private markets and where do you think? What is your take on best CCs, public markets?

• 49:33David Sacks?

  You know, we saw some of the best deals that we've seen during COVID. And, you know, I'm very bullish about the state of entrepreneurship in the US. I mean, just the number of interesting companies doing interesting things. And the infrastructure that makes it so easy for founders to get started and create new companies, it's so much easier now to create a company than it was 10 years or 20 years ago. And of course, it's easy to point to all the ones that don't work or that don't seem like good ideas. But there's so many more experiments that are happening. And I think that's gonna, you know, I'm very bullish about that part of the American economy.

• 50:10Jason Calacanis?

  And Friedberg, what are your thoughts on private markets? And obviously, you're building private companies. You have unlimited capital to build them, I take it, given your track record?

• 50:20David Friedberg?

  I spend most of my time accepting rejections from my very close investor friends in my various projects. So I wouldn't say that that ever becomes true. I'll tell you the truth.

• 50:31David Friedberg?

  Still selling every day, dialing for dollars. But no, there are certainly more investors, more capital, more risk-taking, more kind of valuation extending than I think was the case pre-COVID. I think Chamath's point is right, though. There is so much more liquidity available through access to retail and international market participants in a public setting than there is in a private setting. And it is because of this liquidity premium and the easy access to putting capital in. It's just extraordinary how much, as I've watched close friends and companies and companies I've invested in, and I'm sure you guys have done the same, transition from private to public.

• 51:14David Friedberg?

  The valuation jump is extraordinary, like on a metric basis, right? So whatever the metric might be, you get public, there is this flurry of market participation. As a result, it drives up, there's a multiple.

• 51:26Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Wait, I thought you're... Sorry, can I just say something? That's such an important, smart thing that Friedberg said. So Jason, for example, like all of us, we're all still in the private markets. And I'm not trying to take away from the private markets, but what David said is so important. If you used to look at a SaaS deal, you'd price that SaaS deal 10x ARR, right? Then there's a little bit of inflation, you know, the rates go up, the prices that people pay go up. Now all of a sudden, we're paying 12x, 15x. Now it's 20x if you're growing 100% rate every year. So what's happened? The market has become more efficient and the excess return is getting eaten up. And so you're like, okay, well, that's still really good. And you wait four, five, six years and you think you're going to get paid.

• 52:09Chamath Palihapitiya?

  The crazy thing is like, once that company transitions to the public markets...

• 52:13Jason Calacanis?

  I mean, all of a sudden, if you actually turn the investor base over and you actually create a float so that public market guys can buy it, they'll pay 30 times.

• 52:23David Friedberg?

  That's right.

• 52:23Jason Calacanis?

  35 times, 40 times. So there's a massive multiple expansion. So companies should be going public sooner.

• 52:29David Friedberg?

  If you think about this, like if I'm trying to raise money for one of my companies, I'm going to call on my 10, 20, 30 friends that I know that are investors in private markets and say, hey, guys, do you want to look at this company? And maybe I'll get two or three interested parties and maybe we'll kind of agree on what a fair valuation would be. If I could take that same company and instantly make it available to a million investors, and all I need to do, by the way, is raise $10 million. All I need is some small number of them to write a couple hundred dollar check, and I'm able to fill that round out. The valuation as a result of the liquidity available in that market is so much higher because everyone's going to, there's going to be much more participation in bidding. And so, you know, what I think Chamath has tapped into with the SPAC vehicle and what

• 53:11David Friedberg?

  Robinhood is realizing, and I don't think that we all talk about this enough, but there's this massive, massive, massive market of international investors, of small, of international retail investors who are now rushing into US equities.

• 53:25Jason Calacanis?

  Friedberg, didn't we see that in the ICO craze as well, where you, I think if we took anything from the ICO craze, it was the global appetite for risk and the dot com boom before that. And I think we have to give Best DC a lot of credit here for leading the SPAC movement. I mean, what's your take on everybody copying you down the SPAC path, Chamath, at this point? I had Desktop Metal as an early angel investment that just SPACed. I led, I co-led the pipe. Thank you. Yeah, I know they told me that. Thank you for the markup. And I've been hearing, like, I'm, if I'm getting inbound as an angel investor from, I literally got a cold email from some high profile people and they're like, hey, can you, do you have anything for us to SPAC? I mean, this is like the third or fourth time people are coming down to my dipshit level of angel investing, saying, can you introduce us to the com guys?

• 54:09Jason Calacanis?

  Can you introduce us to Robinhood? I'm like, I think you can go direct to them. But what is your take on how many SPACs have been created since you, like, literally, single-handedly restarted the SPAC movement, Chamath? I think that- Because I don't think you've ever gone on record about this.

• 54:23Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I'm really proud of what we did when we created this thing two years ago. I said I want to basically create a new way of doing IPOs. I called it IPO 2.0. I reserved IPO A through Z on the NYSE. I, I hope to fulfill that and I think I will. But taking a step back for a second, in the year 2000, there were 8,000 public companies in America on the American stock exchanges. And in the year 2020, there are 4,000. So we've shrunk in half the number of public companies while at the same time, we've, you know, 10x the amount of, the amount of capital and the number of people. So we don't have a large enough surface area in the public markets.

• 55:08Chamath Palihapitiya?

  That's why companies are better off going public because they're going to have a much more receptive audience of people that are dying to own growth of any kind. What's the earliest and the median that people should go public? Well, so, so here's the thing. So like if you're like one of 30 companies in a venture portfolio that's growing at 50 plus percent, you're one of 30. But when you go public, you're one of one. You know, when you're growing 50, 60%, you, you become very unique all of a sudden. You're a sort of a 1% kind of a company. You're an outlier and so you get treated, you know, incredibly well. So that's the backdrop. I think a company should be going public around year five, year six. What revenue footprint?

• 55:52Chamath Palihapitiya?

  About 50 million, you know, at 50 million and what they're doubling, I think that they should be going up. And, you know, it allows them to build capital slowly. It allows them to basically contain control. It minimizes dilution. I think it's a really powerful model. And then on, on the number of SPACs, what I would say is I think it's really good that the market is getting diversified. I think what's going to happen is like the, the thing with SPACs is it's, it's going to be no different than in some ways, the banks that preceded us, which is that there's going to be a distribution. You can go to Goldman Sachs and that'll mean some, one thing. You can go to Merrill Lynch or B of A or UBS or Jefferies. It'll mean other things. You can go to Allen and Company. It'll mean yet another different set of things.

• 56:35Chamath Palihapitiya?

  And I'm sure there's going to be a, you know, an organization that is all about cost. Some is going to be all about relationships. So I just think that's going to be the distribution. My personal perspective, it's probably us and maybe one or two other people who really dominate the space. And I'll, and I'll tell you the only reason why I say that. I think it's going to be really important when these people try to get these SPACs done. What they're going to realize is it's really hard and it's hard for a couple of reasons. Number one is you have to marry operational insight and public market sophistication. And the founder will get really smart about being able to figure out whether this person is just a financial arbitrator, or if the person has enough operational experience to deeply understand the business.

• 57:19Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Why you have to translate it to the public markets well. That's one huge thing that I think that people will, um, will start to, will start to hone in on. Um, anyways, there's a bunch of other things, but, um.

• 57:33Jason Calacanis?

  Are you now competing with a lot of people for these SPACs?

• 57:36David Friedberg?

  Does Sacks agree with the $50 million?

• 57:37Jason Calacanis?

  Sacks agree, yeah. Yeah, sure.

• 57:38David Sacks?

  Um, I'm, I'm cool with that. You know, I invest well before that. So I'd be, I'd be happy for.

• 57:43David Friedberg?

  You probably have a bigger portfolio of $50 million investors.

• 57:46David Sacks?

  Yeah, it is. It's great for, for, for me and Jason. And I, you know, I, I think Trumath deserves a ton of credit on, on this whole SPAC thing. It is, I don't know if all the listeners, um, are aware of this, but the SPAC thing's become a huge wave. Um, there's a ton of people creating them. Kevin Hart's is a new one. Reid Hoffman has a new one. They're, you know, the East Coast hedge fund guys, Pincus and, um, and then the East Coast hedge funds like Bill Ackman, or whatever, they're all creating them. So Trumath has really started a wave here and I think the appeal of a SPAC to a founder, I'll put in a plug of why I think it's a good idea for a founder to consider this. Is because you essentially, what, what founders are used to is doing, you know, private rounds, right?

• 58:26David Sacks?

  You agree on a, on an amount raised and evaluation and it's a percent dilution and you're done. That's it. And that's simple, right? And, and when you IPO and need to raise money, it's not like that. You have to then work with an investment bank. They'll put together a book. You do like a road show. You do this whole dog and pony thing. You don't know how much money you're going to get at the end of that process or what the valuation's going to be. And then on top of that, we know statistically, Bill Gurley published all the stats, the investment banks are going to rip you off. So, you know, so that what a SPAC does is it prices like a late-stage private round. You just agree with the SPAC promoter on a valuation and an amount raised. And then on top of it, you get kind of a direct listing along with it.

• 59:09David Sacks?

  Now all of a sudden, you start trading as a public company. And so a SPAC is like a combination, direct listing plus private round. And I think that's going to be appealing to a lot of founders as they start to discover this more and more.

• 59:22Jason Calacanis?

  Sacks, in a way, you're saying it's going to feel more like doing a series D than it does a roadshow. And I think that comfort level for somebody like Robinhood or Calm or DataStax or Thumbtack or any of these companies that you and I are investors in. Every company in your portfolio. I'm just, listen, I got two IPOs in, I got two IPOs in two years. This is, I think this is going to be the new thing for early-stage investors is we're not going to count unicorns anymore. We're going to count SPACs. We're going to count public listings, right? And, and I think that's probably better.

• 59:52Chamath Palihapitiya?

  By the way, the other, the other thing that I'll say to founders is, one is, I think you need to, you need to think about, do these people have the combination of operational and financial acumen in the public markets? And investing experience in the public markets and the operational credibility to describe the business. And I think you can trade off one for the other if one is so deep. Meaning if Warren Buffett was doing a SPAC, you'd say, well, he has no operational experience, but he's so credible in the public markets, then, you know, that's all that matters. But you need to be super, super deep in one or have a really brilliant and thoughtful level of credibility in the publics. Meaning an early-stage investor who isn't married to somebody who can basically say,

• 1:00:37Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I know how hedge funds work, I've made them money and I'm going to make them more money. And mutual funds, et cetera, is troublesome. The second thing is for founders, you have to really make sure you understand what is in it for the person that's doing the SPAC. I mean, in every deal, I write a minimum of $100 million personally.

• 1:00:56Chamath Palihapitiya?

  And that's a lot. And so I feel

• 1:00:58Jason Calacanis?

  That's getting in the game.

• 1:00:58Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I feel very much at risk. And so I take a lot of time to make sure these things go well. And then the third is that for the SPAC person, what I'll tell them is they are going to find that there's a bunch of landmines. And I'm not going to, you know, say it upfront, because I think it'll be fun for them to find out themselves along the way. But but these things are hard. The first one took me two and a half years. They're hard. They're hard.

• 1:01:22Jason Calacanis?

  They're hard. Hey, let's swing to the election now and talk a little bit about the flip flopping we're all doing, because we've gone from Trump's a lock to Trump's not a lock, you know, and we've had many different theories. But here we are. Are we 60 days out now? How many days till the election? Is it exactly 60? And then the first debate is September 29th?

• 1:01:44Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:45Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, so we're we're at the 55 or 56 days mark to the taping of this. And the first debate, I think, is September 30th. So we're but three weeks away from Joe Biden and Trump going at it. What's everybody's handicapping now? The mark the markets seem to be saying even money? Or a slight edge to Joe Biden? What are our thoughts?

• 1:02:07Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I I think that

• 1:02:10Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I think Biden's looked the crispest he's looked. And so

• 1:02:16Jason Calacanis?

  Is that actually encouraging or not encouraging?

• 1:02:18Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I think it really is, because I think he's a really good, like I said, he doesn't have to be better than Donald Trump. He just has to not be Donald Trump for a lot of people. And so, you know, he becomes a very good do no harm alternative. Because, you know, to support Donald Trump, you have to have a view. To support Joe Biden, you can have no view. And I think that that in general, that's a that's a demand maximizing thing to do. So I think he's relatively well positioned. It's the crispest I've ever seen him on television. There's less stuttering, there's less not stuttering, but like less like mental gaps. You know, the

• 1:02:59Jason Calacanis?

  What do you think of the VP choice, Kamala? Think safe.

• 1:03:03David Sacks?

  So I, I, I agree with Tomoth that that was kind of the, the, the take or, or theory on Biden, like a month or two ago is that he could just run as a protest vote against Trump. Um, and, um, and, and that's why the basement strategy appeared to make sense is that he would say nothing, do nothing, go nowhere and just, and just try to run as a protest vote against Trump. And I think that was working a couple of months ago when, you know, A, COVID seemed a lot worse, uh, B, the economy seemed a lot worse. We're now down to about eight percent unemployment. We were at 13 or 14% um, and uh, C, you know, Trump had seemed to kind of mishandle the, the reaction to, to Floyd. He seemed to be inciting it, but now we have

• 1:03:47David Sacks?

  this, this issue of the, the looting and violence and predominantly Democrat run cities. And I think, you know, Trump has sort of found his sales pitch now, um, in opposing, um, the, the, basically the, the radical left, um, and these, these mobs and, and protests that seem to be, uh, you know, causing, uh, tremendous unrest and, uh, looting and violence in our cities. And I think it's, I think it's a, in combination with the improving conditions of the economy and COVID, I think it's a winning pitch for him, uh, unless Biden finds a more compelling way of responding, which he has not to date. Um, I think, you know, somebody like Bill Clinton would know exactly how to respond. I think he would, you know, in the

• 1:04:32Jason Calacanis?

  Just better instincts. Yeah.

• 1:04:33David Sacks?

  Well, I think, you know, he would pull a sister soldier, to use a term from the, the, you know, political dictionary where, you know, maybe he would take this crazy new book in defense of looting and figure out, you know, and give a speech denouncing that. I mean, he would find somebody to his left who represents, you know, a fringe of the, the left that he presumably doesn't support and find a way to distance himself or denounce them.

• 1:04:55Jason Calacanis?

  Like Antifa maybe.

• 1:04:56David Sacks?

  Like Antifa, like, you know, the, the, anyone, you know, the, any of the left wing groups in Portland. Looting in Portland. I think there's a lot of targets, certainly.

• 1:05:05Jason Calacanis?

  Nobody wants to support that. And so Biden comes out and says, hey, we don't support that. And it gives him that law and order vote.

• 1:05:11David Sacks?

  But he hasn't, he hasn't really done that. I mean, so two of my favorite political pundits right now are Andrew Sullivan and Matt Taibbi, who are, you know, very, uh, they're, they're strong supporters of Biden. They're very anti-Trump. But they think he's failing on sort of this, these issues, uh, because he's not, he's not figuring out the right way to, uh, to denounce what's happening.

• 1:05:34Jason Calacanis?

  I, I think a lot of this has to do with when kids go back to school and the death rate, uh, of COVID. And as I was tweeting and I gotten, I've got a lot of people angry at me, um, about tweeting this, but I said, I think this is a setup for Trump to go into the first debate with, you know, well under, you know, six, 700 deaths a day. And then the next debate in October with, you know, call it three or 400 deaths a day. And basically declare that he did solve COVID. Uh, because we've been trending down for five weeks now. And he started wearing a mask five, six weeks ago, seven weeks ago, July 11th was the first day he wore a mask. A cynic would say he almost timed mask wearing, which is obviously what we talked about in the first episode or two of All In Podcast, was our discussion about why is wearing a mask so difficult for him?

• 1:06:20Jason Calacanis?

  And it seems like he slow played it. He, you know, he set, he, he slow played. He hit his set on the turn and here he is. Like he wore the mask on July 11th. He wore it four months late, but guess what? As Chamath was saying, everybody wears a mask and every, and, and these things go down in Italy. We're, we're going to come into the first debate. What if it's 400 deaths a day? And then the second debate, it's 200 deaths a day. And then our kids are back in school in October, which is seems to be the case, right? All the schools are saying, you know, be ready for October to open. And what if he actually does have a vaccine that has somewhat of credibility? Or any of these high speed testing machines come on? I mean, this could be a setup of all setups for him to just, you know, drop the microphone. Hey, look, the economy has had an all time high and COVID deaths are at an all time low.

• 1:07:04David Sacks?

  Well, I mean, yeah.

• 1:07:04Jason Calacanis?

  And democratic cities are on fire.

• 1:07:07David Sacks?

  That to me seems like the the trajectory. I mean, we spent a long time on this pod talking about what a disaster San Francisco and California are. Those are one party states and cities. And I think, you know, we're not just electing a person as president, we're also electing a party and a movement and a governing philosophy. And however much Trump is, you know, disliked by a lot of people, I think a lot of people are looking at, you know, I think they they may like Joe Biden personally and and think that he personally is safe, but they don't like the movement and the party and the governing philosophy that is now associated with Biden.

• 1:07:44Jason Calacanis?

  So if you had to put your entire net worth on it, Chamath, Biden, or Trump?

• 1:07:51Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Biden. I think Biden's gonna win.

• 1:07:53Jason Calacanis?

  Sacks, entire net worth?

• 1:07:56David Sacks?

  I would, I predict Trump at this moment.

• 1:07:59Jason Calacanis?

  Wait, you predict, but you but you wouldn't put your entire net worth on it. If you had to, I could see your hesitation. You want Trump to win.

• 1:08:05David Sacks?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:08:06Jason Calacanis?

  But you would you wouldn't put you wouldn't put your entire net worth on him?

• 1:08:09David Sacks?

  Yeah, of course not.

• 1:08:11Jason Calacanis?

  You would put it on Biden.

• 1:08:11David Sacks?

  This is this is about a 55% sort of thing.

• 1:08:16Jason Calacanis?

  So Biden has a 55% chance of winning. So even though you're voting for Trump, you are not going, you would not put your fortune on Biden.

• 1:08:23David Sacks?

  You you asked me who I predict. Right now, I'm predicting Trump. You'll remember on the last pod, I predicted Biden. So it moves depending on what I see happening.

• 1:08:32Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, and I'm gonna go with Biden by nose.

• 1:08:35Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Jason, I think I think a better way to get a better answer is not to force somebody to put their entire net worth on the line. It's just to say, who do you think is gonna win?

• 1:08:42Jason Calacanis?

  Who do you think's gonna win, Sacks?

• 1:08:45David Sacks?

  How many times do I have to answer this question?

• 1:08:47Jason Calacanis?

  You think Trump's gonna win? You actually do?

• 1:08:49David Sacks?

  Yes, yes, I do, actually.

• 1:08:51Jason Calacanis?

  Really? That's fascinating, huh?

• 1:08:53David Sacks?

  And remember, remember, it's the first time I've said this.

• 1:08:56David Friedberg?

  I think it's I think it's the same as it was last time for me and has been most of this process is it's a coin flip and it still is a coin flip. And there's a lot of noise between here and 60 days from here.

• 1:09:09Jason Calacanis?

  All right, well, then if we do think it's a coin flip, Friedberg, what happens if Trump is elected again? Some people think this is all institutions are broken forever, America's broken forever, hyperbolic.

• 1:09:19David Friedberg?

  That's the perception on both sides, right? So the perception and the motivation on both sides is democracy is crumbling. And the resultant action is to elect the person you think will restore democracy. The reality is both candidates, to some degree, might move us a little bit further away from democracy. And some might argue that Trump makes us feel a little bit more like an autocratic dictatorial regime. And some might say that Biden makes us feel a little bit more like an AOC socialist regime. It's not all the way as if we had Bernie in the seat. But, you know, the reaction isn't necessarily, let's go back to the middle. Let's become a centrist government. Let's have good political debate and a good...

• 1:10:00David Friedberg?

  By the way, the one show I've been watching a lot of lately, just to nostalgia to Chamath's tweet earlier today, make me feel better about life, is West Wing, where, you know, Jed Bartlet is the president. And he walks a great national debate. We all want to have this intellectual exercise of coming to the truth and coming to the best decision for the nation. And I don't think anyone feels like that's the case today, nor will that be the case tomorrow with either of these guys in the seat. And I think the point then becomes, well, who's going to better align with my values? And, you know, it is really a crumbling democracy kind of motivation, I would guess, if you were to survey people as to how they're making their choice.

• 1:10:35Jason Calacanis?

  If Trump is elected, Friedberg, do you feel it is an acute, you know, existential crisis for America as a democracy? You personally?

• 1:10:42David Friedberg?

  Look, I don't think democracies end with a bang. I think they end with a whimper. And I think that's been the case historically. And, you know, no democracy has lasted. Our democracy in the US has lasted longer.

• 1:10:59David Friedberg?

  than many, but democracies, I'll just tell you my point of view on this democracies ultimately enable freedom of operation and free markets that that result in greater progress than any other governing system. The problem with progress is that progress is asymmetric. You have some people who progress at a much greater rate than than than most. And and it is that delta that motivates the end of that system ultimately. While everyone in the United States or the average and even the bottom quartile of the population in the US is better off than they were 50 years ago in terms of income and healthcare and shelter and access to food and access to all these things, there the top 1% of the US is further ahead than the median. And it is that delta that motivates the end

• 1:11:43David Friedberg?

  of democracy and it is that is which is then perceived to be unfair about this governing system. And that ultimately results in fascism or socialism. And then fascism results socialism ultimately restricts anyone from progression. And that's why fascism and socialism ultimately end up in in in some sort of, you know, democratic outcome. And it is a cycle. And you know, we're kind of in this, you know, awkward phase of trying to figure out what the hell we're going to be next. And I don't think that awkward phase is realized in the next presidential term, but it is going to be realized in our lifetimes.

• 1:12:12Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I think that that's a really good point. I completely agree with that.

• 1:12:18Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Go Biden.

• 1:12:19Jason Calacanis?

  Go, please win. Okay, wrapping up here, media selections of your bestie summer, bestie book, bestie TV show, bestie binge. What do you got? You got a bestie book recommendation, Sacks? You got a bestie?

• 1:12:32David Sacks?

  Yeah, my my recommendation is going to be a little different. You know, I've been I've been subscribing to a lot of newsletters on Substack.

• 1:12:39Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:39David Sacks?

  And I found that to be pretty interesting. And I mentioned two of my favorite writers, especially around, you know, politics and election time, Andrew Sullivan and Matt Taibbi. So check them out.

• 1:12:51Jason Calacanis?

  Your Overton windows open enough to get to those two who are super polarized and they actually kicked Andrew Sullivan out of New York Magazine for making other writers at New York Magazine feel unsafe with his words.

• 1:13:04David Sacks?

  All all my favorite writers seem to have been canceled at some previous publication and now they've set themselves up on Substack, so.

• 1:13:10Jason Calacanis?

  It is amazing how the Overton window has closed. Bestie Seed, you have a bestie binge, a bestie book, or a bestie newsletter, or a bestie podcast you want to share with the besties?

• 1:13:19Chamath Palihapitiya?

  I would give a shout out to a book called Americana, which is about, it's a history of American capitalism, told in chapters for every, call it like, you know, five to seven, or ten year, decade period. It's really interesting for people into business. It's written by a guy named Boo Sriniwassan.

• 1:13:40Jason Calacanis?

  Okay, Bestie Friedberg, what do you got? Bestie Queen of Kinwa?

• 1:13:44David Friedberg?

  I took a week off and hung out at the beach, and I binge watched Godfather 1, 2, and 3, as I've done several times in my past. I also watched one of my favorite, top five films of all time, There Will Be Blood by Paul Thomas Anderson.

• 1:13:58Jason Calacanis?

  Such a good film. That opening scene is just crazy.

• 1:14:01David Friedberg?

  Every scene is just, it's just such a beautiful film.

• 1:14:04Jason Calacanis?

  I drink your milkshake.

• 1:14:05David Friedberg?

  It got me down, yeah, it got me down this research path on the Standard Oil Company, and I ended up, first off, I ended up reading Mario Puccio's Godfather, which is very graphic and interesting, but if you've seen the movie, I don't think you get much more from the book. But then, I started reading Ron Chernow's biography of Rockefeller.

• 1:14:25Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:25David Friedberg?

  And so I don't know if anyone's made it through that 727-page tour.

• 1:14:29Jason Calacanis?

  I got about 500 pages in. It is detailed.

• 1:14:32David Friedberg?

  It's detailed. So it's not, you know, it's not probably, you won't gain as much from it as perhaps reading a Wikipedia article, but the Standard Oil, the era, if you think about what technology is, what we call technology in the US today, in our world, and it's mostly software, and now increasingly biotech, you know, there have been different eras of technology, and different eras of monopoly, and just hearing the story of the railroads and Standard Oil, and what took place in this country, it's incredible. And it's so analogous to what's gone on, and the outrage, and the dissent, and the fake news that goes on about these people as they've been successful, you know, it really is, history teaches us everything,

• 1:15:14David Friedberg?

  and it's, so I just, you know, just in the era of Standard Oil, just learning about... The stories of that time and the people of that time. This is one book that's been, you know, an interesting part of the tale.

• 1:15:25Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Besties. I gotta go. I love you guys.

• 1:15:28Jason Calacanis?

  Love you too.

• 1:15:28Chamath Palihapitiya?

  Jason and Friedburgers, I'll see you on Thursday.

• 1:15:32Jason Calacanis?

  Yeah, stake it up. Let's go outside. I'll just give them all my closing, The Fish That Ate The Whale, a book about Sam Zemurray, who was the Banana King. And another interesting book you might like, I Love Capitalism by Ken Langone, who, you know, built, he built Home Depot. And it's a pretty great story about, both stories of capitalism. And I think you'll like them Friedberg, if you like the, yeah, the books you were talking about. Yeah. All right, everybody. We'll see you next time. And don't forget to rate and subscribe. And we'll be taping another episode in another five, six, seven, or eight weeks. Hopefully earlier than that. Take care, Sax. Take care, Friedberg. Take care, Chamath. And we'll see you all next time on the All In Podcast.