137: If You Know The Way Broadly, You Will See It in All Things. With Jiu Jitsu World Champion, Dean Lister.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:09:16 - Dean Lister: San Diego, South America, Jiu Jitsu, and "The Way" 2:05:20 - Support. 2:34:28 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 137 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  If you know the way broadly, you will see it in all things.

• 0:19Jocko Willink?

  And that is a simplified quote from Musashi's Book of Five Rings and it's a solid quote. Makes sense. I believe it to be true.

• 0:32Jocko Willink?

  But at the same time, while I agree with Musashi, that if you know the way broadly, you'll see it in all things. There's a little bit of a problem with that concept and the problem is, how do you get to know the way broadly? I mean, the way is no easy thing to grasp.

• 0:53Jocko Willink?

  You aren't born with it.

• 0:56Jocko Willink?

  You don't just wake up with it.

• 1:00Jocko Willink?

  It's something that you have to learn. And it's something that you are always still learning.

• 1:08Jocko Willink?

  But even though you have to learn the way,

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  at the same time, learning the way is hard because the way is something that's hard to teach.

• 1:20Jocko Willink?

  And recently I've been asked by a couple of different people and a couple of different scenarios, how I learned what I learned.

• 1:30Jocko Willink?

  How have I learned what I learned? And this is, believe me, no claim that I know a ton of stuff. I don't. As I just said, I am still learning. But I will say that I do know the way broadly enough that I now see it everywhere and in everything. So,

• 1:53Jocko Willink?

  how did I learn the way?

• 1:58Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's kind of interesting because it's a combination of, actually, it's more of a collision of a bunch of different things, of course, my time in the SEAL teams. And I do trace a lot of it back to the SEAL platoon where we had a little mutiny. We had a bad boss and we ended up turning against him and he got fired and replaced by the best boss. And, and the juxtaposition and the contrast between really good leadership and really bad leadership made it very clear.

• 2:31Jocko Willink?

  But it wasn't just that, of course, I had other great guys that I worked with in the SEAL teams that taught me a ton, a great instructor cadre that put me through training, that taught me a ton. And you know what, I realize I always paid close attention to leadership and tactics. And I think that's probably because I sought something that I might be able to get good at since there was a lot of things that I wasn't naturally good. I wasn't naturally the strongest. I wasn't naturally the fastest. I wasn't naturally the best shot. So I kind of paid attention to leadership and I paid attention to who did it well and who didn't. And I paid attention to tactics and I paid attention to what worked and what didn't from a tactical perspective.

• 3:17Jocko Willink?

  And I read. Now, I will tell you right now, I did not read a lot by any stretch, especially compared to how much I read right now. But I read some important books that had a big impact on me. And of course, they were only books about war. And in those books about war, the things that I actually paid attention to wasn't like the, wasn't the, the, the political situation that was going on. I, I paid attention to the leadership. I paid attention to the tactics. I paid attention to the human nature of how men reacted to war.

• 3:59Jocko Willink?

  And so some of those books, and again, it wasn't a lot about face with the old breed, battle leadership, the last hundred yards, some very straightforward books and books that I covered early on this podcast. And then of course, on top of that, I got lucky with my deployments overseas and I got to experience war from a leadership perspective.

• 4:23Jocko Willink?

  And I started to see how things overlapped and intertwined.

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  And one of the things that really helped me see the connections between leadership and tactics and human nature and life in general was

• 4:42Jocko Willink?

  jujitsu.

• 4:44Jocko Willink?

  I talk about jujitsu a lot. Obviously, we talk about jujitsu a lot. Jitsu is a simple, straightforward, practical representation of the way.

• 4:58Jocko Willink?

  If you think about what it, what jujitsu has in it, right? It has offense, it has defense, it has flanking, it has conservation of energy. It has deception. It has attack, it has concentration of effort. It has position, improving your position, it has maneuvering, it has placing baits and using feints and always keeping your base and keeping your balance while at the same time trying to upset your opponents. Now, everything I just said, you could use that for combat, for tactical situations, you could also use it in business, you could use it in interactions with other human beings as you maneuver through

• 5:42Jocko Willink?

  human nature and how it, you interact with it. And there's psychological elements inside of jujitsu as well that are reflected. Humility. You're gonna get humbled by jujitsu. And at the same time, dichotomy, you're gonna gain confidence.

• 6:02Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna know the truth. You're gonna know where you actually stand. You know, it's not, you're gonna get a belt. But that belt, it only represents.

• 6:15Jocko Willink?

  It only, it doesn't fully represent the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is the truth and in jujitsu, you know the truth.

• 6:25Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna be vulnerable, you're gonna, you're psychologically, you're gonna learn about tenacity, you're gonna, you're gonna have to have grit, you're gonna have to have durability, you're gonna have to have stability. And as I trained jujitsu and I garnered a better understanding of jujitsu, I started to have a better understanding of the way.

• 6:48Jocko Willink?

  And as I learned the way on the mats, the way revealed itself in combat, it revealed itself in leadership, in human nature, and in life.

• 7:01Jocko Willink?

  Because as you, and I talk about this as well. As you understand things from different angles, right? So when you learn the way in different disciplines, you start to see it from different angles and eventually

• 7:18Jocko Willink?

  I came to understand the way broadly.

• 7:22Jocko Willink?

  And now I do see it in everything. And this is another thing. The more I see it in everything, the more I see it in everything.

• 7:34Jocko Willink?

  So, understanding the way, like I said, a lot of it had to do with this thread. And I talked about it when we, when we talked about Judo. I talked about how Jiu Jitsu is the thing that started. I started to see a connective thread between these, between these different disciplines.

• 7:55Jocko Willink?

  And

• 7:57Jocko Willink?

  a lot of it, my understanding of Jiu Jitsu helped me in every other aspect. And a lot of my, in fact, the vast majority of my understanding of Jiu Jitsu comes from one person.

• 8:09Jocko Willink?

  And the person I was lucky enough to learn from is a pioneer of the sport.

• 8:18Jocko Willink?

  Considered by many people to be one of the greatest grapplers ever.

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  He's a practitioner that actually revolutionized the sport of Jiu Jitsu and grappling. And his influence is still evident today. World champion, multiple times over. Also a mixed martial arts fighter, who has faced some of the best in the world and some of the biggest arenas in that sport.

• 8:46Jocko Willink?

  And someone who I have trained on the mats of justice with for over 20 years. And who's been a close friend of mine that whole time, through many ups and downs, through victories and defeats, through struggles of life on and off the mat.

• 9:04Jocko Willink?

  Master of Jiu Jitsu and

• 9:07Jocko Willink?

  More important, a friend of mine, my brother Dean Lister, who is now finally coming on the show. Dean, welcome to the show.

• 9:18Dean Lister?

  Jacau.

• 9:20Dean Lister?

  Great to be here, brother. Thank you for the invite.

• 9:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, man. Uh, let's start at the beginning. And I was thinking about, I know a little bit about your beginning and, but I actually didn't realize that I know that you were raised somewhat in Panama, but where were you actually born?

• 9:38Dean Lister?

  Born in Camp Pendleton, Oceanside here in San Diego.

• 9:41Jocko Willink?

  Cause your dad was in the Marine Corps.

• 9:42Dean Lister?

  That's right. So I'm a native of San Diego, but um, two years I grew up in Venezuela, uh, two years in Panama. And uh, my whole life had been all around the world, traveling, learning the world. You know, it's very important to study.

• 9:56Jocko Willink?

  How old were you? How old were you when you moved to Venezuela?

• 9:59Dean Lister?

  I was in third grade, so eight, nine years old.

• 10:02Jocko Willink?

  Did you go right into Spanish speaking school?

• 10:04Dean Lister?

  Well, they had English and Spanish at the same time. I didn't speak Spanish. That was actually a problem for me. And I actually learned Spanish fluently when I lived in Panama, was in junior high. And that was of course during.

• 10:15Jocko Willink?

  Did you go to a Spanish school, Spanish speaking school, or did you just learn it out in the streets?

• 10:21Dean Lister?

  I learned best from, let's say, free rolling, say something, talking, uh, saying something, you do it wrong, you actually learn how to, uh, speak better. Uh, so I've actually been dropped off in countries and learn languages that way. It's the best way, actually. So you have no choice.

• 10:34Jocko Willink?

  Immersion.

• 10:34Dean Lister?

  Immersion, exactly. Um, in Panama, it was a DOD, Departed Defense School. And matter of fact, they used my junior high as a, as a hospital, field hospital during the Panama invasion. And uh, that, that's where I actually learned Spanish. Uh, I had survival Spanish when I was a little kid, but Panama.

• 10:52Jocko Willink?

  What years did you live in Panama?

• 10:54Dean Lister?

  Eighty-nine, eighty-eight. So I was in seventh and eighth grade around that time.

• 10:57Jocko Willink?

  Seventh and eighth grade, you lived in Panama, the invasion went down in eighty-nine, with this, I think, December of eighty-nine.

• 11:03Dean Lister?

  Eighteenth or twenty, I forget.

• 11:05Jocko Willink?

  And you were like in it. It was, it was happening around you.

• 11:09Dean Lister?

  What happened was, uh, Fort Amador, which actually means Fort Lover in Spanish. It's a Navy base. It's not a very big base. But it's the only base in Panama that was, they were trying to make a joint effort to have half Panamanian, well, imagine I was in the middle of about. Maybe eighty yards from where my house was down a hill about forty guys got massacred there. The front gate to the base. Um, some PDF department, defense forces, police, military, same thing down there. They they did try to run a marine roadblock.

• 11:43Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 11:44Dean Lister?

  In a bus.

• 11:44Jocko Willink?

  That's not gonna work out good for them.

• 11:46Dean Lister?

  And the Marines had fifty cows just. And the bus. Grinded to a halt, basically, just didn't make it. So, yeah.

• 11:55Jocko Willink?

  What did they do with the families during that time? So like, what did your, I mean, your dad, did he have to work or he?

• 12:01Dean Lister?

  He was he was at Corey Heights, which was the main, you know, headquarters. So he was basically underground this big rock. And he could not tell us. So he knew, but there's no way it was like top secret, whatever. Compartmentalized, whatever you would say as far as he couldn't let us know.

• 12:16Jocko Willink?

  And they didn't, he didn't, didn't send you out of the country?

• 12:20Dean Lister?

  It happened real fast.

• 12:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 12:22Dean Lister?

  They because they they killed a marine lieutenant, I believe his name was Lieutenant Paz. And that was maybe, yeah, that was not the reason, that was the straw that, not the straw, the bolt that broke the camel's back.

• 12:33Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 12:33Dean Lister?

  And send in, yeah, all our forces. And that caused me some problems, though, in in school because. Mo- uh, most of the kids were Panamanian kids. They were, they called them zonies. Their parents worked on the Panama Canal. And so they were pretty well off. I went to these at school down there. And because of that, everyone, everyone from Panama had an uncle or a cousin who died. And so they see me, I was, by the way, I was a goofy little kid. Not saying I wasn't tough, I was just goofy. So didn't speak Spanish. Uh, I was goofy. Uh, my social skills were a little bit awkward, maybe they are to this day, actually. And that's a recipe for disaster, right? So that's.

• 13:15Jocko Willink?

  Were you scrawny?

• 13:17Dean Lister?

  I was always, I was always tough scrawny, but I wasn't, I didn't get big until I was like sixteen, seventeen. Started growing real fast. Yeah.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  And so you were getting scraps down there, basically, because you were a gringo.

• 13:29Dean Lister?

  Oh, gringo. They called us Yankee down there. Gringo didn't exist. That's.

• 13:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 13:33Dean Lister?

  Yankee. Everywhere was Yankee go home. It was everywhere. Yankee, and then they spelt wrong. H O M. And yanqui was Y A N Q U I, spelled like Spanish.

• 13:44Jocko Willink?

  So the school was on base?

• 13:45Dean Lister?

  No, no.

• 13:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the school was off base?

• 13:47Dean Lister?

  You'd take a bus. Matter of fact, it was really stupid. Um, they actually had a failed coup about, I think, two weeks before the invasion. One of Noriega, Manuel Noriega's top guys, generals, successfully took him down and uh, the loyalists to, to Noriega came to his rescue and the general surrendered. But that day, the country was on high alert and we're going home on the bus back to get dropped off at, to my base and other bases. And uh, the Panamanian PDF, Panamanian Defense Force guys were in a machine gun nest, just, and I'm telling you, all these high school kids, I, I knew enough to just shut up. They opened the window and started taunting these guys. And these guys had,

• 14:34Dean Lister?

  what are they, PK? It was pointed right at us. And they were like looking at us and I'm, ah, man. They didn't shoot us, but that was one of those things, when you're a kid, when you're young, you do stupid things apparently, so. Yeah, so I was right there. It was um, it was a crazy time. It was good though. I'm actually glad. Uh, and this is, oh, I was to tease Jaco, which is, I don't think he appreciates it, but I was like, Jaco, I saw war before you. Technically, it's true. Jaco was like, yeah, whatever. So I've seen one tenth of one percent or whatever.

• 15:08Jocko Willink?

  But you were what, ten years old?

• 15:10Dean Lister?

  I was thirteen, twelve.

• 15:11Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that's actually, you actually had more of an understanding. If you were a little bit younger, you know, you might not really get it. But you had enough understanding to realize that you were in danger and stuff.

• 15:20Dean Lister?

  Yeah, so for twenty-four hours, we were all alone, pitch dark. Basically, I was just on the ground for three days. And uh, my mom filled up the bathtub with water and I, I thought I was gonna die. Really, and you know, you're twelve years old. Could think a lot. But uh, that changed my life actually, just that, just to have that experience.

• 15:37Jocko Willink?

  But you were on base that was secured by US forces?

• 15:42Dean Lister?

  It was becoming secured. It was the only base in Panama that was half Panamanian. Across the street, down the hill, was the Panamanian officers. So it was a joint effort. In my situation, most of the US kids or like Howard, they were in Rodman, they were over these hills. They heard gunshots and, you know, concussions, whatever, but they didn't see anything. They might have seen a few tracers, but yeah, I was right in the middle.

• 16:06Jocko Willink?

  Dame rounds hit your house?

• 16:08Dean Lister?

  Uh, like, like we were on top of the hill, so a few things chipped at the top of our roof. And, and for sure, if you walked by a window, someone could shoot you. So we didn't do that, of course. And we just drank out of our bathtub.

• 16:20Jocko Willink?

  And it was just you and your mom and your sister?

• 16:22Dean Lister?

  My mom.

• 16:23Jocko Willink?

  And your dad was at work?

• 16:24Dean Lister?

  My dad was, he was working.

• 16:26Jocko Willink?

  He must have been freaked out.

• 16:28Dean Lister?

  Our neighbor, we, we had giant yards between these houses, nice houses, actually. And the neighbor, she was all by herself, so it was just no kids. She ran over, uh, across this, I'd say a hundred yards. The, the yards were real wide and she's knocking on our doors. She came in, so I actually, we had a fourth. It was a young, young lady. To me, it was an old lady, she was about twenty-five.

• 16:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:50Dean Lister?

  To me, that was an old lady.

• 16:51Jocko Willink?

  Person you've ever seen in your life.

• 16:52Dean Lister?

  She came.

• 16:53Jocko Willink?

  Did your dad leave any weapons at the house? Damn. I'd have been like, Dad, come on.

• 16:58Dean Lister?

  I would have strapped up and.

• 17:00Jocko Willink?

  Go get some.

• 17:01Dean Lister?

  Not really, but yeah, my dad was, uh, yeah, it was just a sudden thing. It was short notice and he was, yeah. But it happened around, I don't know, eleven, before midnight, eleven thirty-five or something. I thought it was firecrackers first and then just shaking and flashes everywhere, just chaotic.

• 17:18Jocko Willink?

  And then did you finish out that school year? So that goes down in December. It got quelled pretty quickly.

• 17:24Dean Lister?

  Yeah, I'd say three days of, two days of very intense. First day was the most, second was serious, third was okay. And the next week was just like a mop up operations. So still for ten days, it was, it was dangerous, but the first, um, one of my teachers from my junior high got, got killed and, uh, was just out in the street at the wrong time. And he was living in town, actually. That's why he was in the wrong place, wrong time. And I don't know how, yeah, he got shot, but I'm not, I'm not sure by who, but the wrong place, wrong time. So, uh, yeah, right in the middle of it.

• 17:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. We used to go down to Panama to do jungle training. It was awesome, but it was after, I mean, this is in the nineties. So, but I, we went in and we'd look around, try and find, you know, where some of these battles took place and, and it was interesting. So then when you, you said, did you finish out that school year?

• 18:15Dean Lister?

  Halfway through. We moved to to San Diego.

• 18:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 18:19Dean Lister?

  High school down here.

• 18:20Jocko Willink?

  And then you went down. Now, when you were down there, did you start? Did you start getting interested in martial arts when you were getting picked on?

• 18:27Dean Lister?

  I was doing karate.

• 18:28Jocko Willink?

  Karate.

• 18:29Dean Lister?

  Now, I did wrestling for one year when I was eight years old. My dad made me do it.

• 18:33Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:33Dean Lister?

  And I didn't like it at the time, but I'm really glad he made me do it because that helped me a lot in fights.

• 18:38Jocko Willink?

  It's a weird. It's a weird thing with kids. Like, you know that it's good that he made you do it, but if he he might, if he made you do it even more, maybe you would just have hated it.

• 18:49Dean Lister?

  I'd be like, I'm not gonna wrestle. High school, I wanted to wrestle, so it's good.

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  So then you we got to San Diego and now and you also played football.

• 18:56Dean Lister?

  Yes.

• 18:57Jocko Willink?

  Were you better at football or were you better at wrestling?

• 18:59Dean Lister?

  Wrestling. I was a good tackler. I was one of the top one or two best tacklers, not the fastest guy. I'm fast and average, but really, my body's not made for sprinting. It's made for grabbing people.

• 19:10Jocko Willink?

  Did you start? Did you? You you are a mutant. Um, did you start? Did you? Was that so you? What grade was it that you wrestled in for one year? Was that like sixth grade or something?

• 19:19Dean Lister?

  Third grade, third grade, so nine years old, maybe.

• 19:22Jocko Willink?

  So now your freshman year in high school is the first year that you actually started wrestling.

• 19:25Dean Lister?

  Freshman, I skipped 10th grade because I wanted to focus on weights and football, mistake, but it's okay. And then 11th and 12th grade, I wrestled, and I was varsity 11 and 12.

• 19:35Jocko Willink?

  So you did that well without that much experience.

• 19:39Dean Lister?

  I don't know why, but for me.

• 19:41Jocko Willink?

  Well, I do know why because you're, you know, you just joked about being like, uh, you know, a mutant grappler, but you actually literally have.

• 19:52Jocko Willink?

  Like you were designed to grapple. I'm serious, man. So, yeah. So, and that that's proof right there is that you is that you you wrestled, you know, once when you were eight years old, and then you wrestled in freshman year, and then, I mean, there's kids, there's kids that wrestle their whole lives and they're. That you're wrestling against?

• 20:13Dean Lister?

  Yes.

• 20:14Jocko Willink?

  And how did you do?

• 20:15Dean Lister?

  Uh, I was, like I say, South Bay Regional Champion. I took third in county. Well, I wasn't that good until nineteen twenty. For some reason, the submission art, sambo and jiu-jitsu, those guys who beat me in high school.

• 20:28Jocko Willink?

  Wait, you said nineteen twenty?

• 20:29Dean Lister?

  Nineteen twenty. Nineteen or twenty.

• 20:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 20:31Dean Lister?

  Around that time, I got athletic and coordinated. I was kinda clumsy when I was seventeen. So, there was kids that beat me. One guy beat me. Almost tech fought me, which means almost got fifteen to two on me or whatever.

• 20:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Dean Lister?

  He was from my local high school. And I faced him in a tournament after high school, and I pinned him in thirty seconds. So, I don't know why I just took off.

• 20:52Jocko Willink?

  So, you were like a late bloomer. And also, you have this natural gift that you hadn't started to hone yet. And once you started to hone it, it just started to make sense in your brain.

• 21:00Dean Lister?

  It was the submission that got me really interested. And just the rules.

• 21:04Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so where'd that come from?

• 21:05Dean Lister?

  That made sense.

• 21:06Jocko Willink?

  It was sambo, right? Sambo was your introduction to submission?

• 21:08Dean Lister?

  Before I did jiu-jitsu, yes. Sambo is, for those who don't know, it's a Russian grappling style. I would roughly compare it maybe in the middle of judo and jiu-jitsu, because they stress a little more wrestling than judo and a little more submissions. It's in the middle, let's say.

• 21:24Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so I would throw that first. It's sort of like in the middle of wrestling, judo and jiu-jitsu. Like, you gotta put all three of them together.

• 21:31Dean Lister?

  It's like a collage.

• 21:32Jocko Willink?

  Cause you wear a jacket.

• 21:34Dean Lister?

  Jacket, shorts.

• 21:35Jocko Willink?

  But you wear shorts and shoes.

• 21:37Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 21:37Jocko Willink?

  Which is, which is literally a combination of everything.

• 21:41Dean Lister?

  You can go for foot locks, whereas in judo, you can't go for foot locks. Uh, you can go for a single leg, double leg, where in judo, you can't do that. So, um, yeah.

• 21:49Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you hear about sambo?

• 21:51Dean Lister?

  My, was my off-season coach named Jerry Matsumoto down at my high school, Hilltop High School in Chula Vista, here in San Diego. And in off-season, he was teaching this thing called sambo. This is right, right before UFC One. So, um, and what's that stuff with the jacket? What's this? And they said, oh, this is a submission. What is a submission? I was like seventeen. Oh, you can get your arm broken. I'm like, and I told myself, and this is something that, this one of the... Not few, several things Jaco and myself share, we have in common. I told myself at age seventeen, even though I was uncoordinated, I said, "That's scary." And I, now I have to do it. I gotta do it now. If I don't do it now, I'm, I'm, I'll feel ashamed of myself.

• 22:34Dean Lister?

  So, I did it. For some reason, I, guys that could beat me in Greco or, or freestyle, I could submit them. I don't know why. I have no idea why, but it was making sense for me. And then I went to Jiu-Jitsu at Fabio Santos.

• 22:47Jocko Willink?

  And, and you were, you, you say like you were naturally good at Sombo, and you were, and you, you were like the national champion. Two-time. Two-time national champion in Sombo, right?

• 22:56Dean Lister?

  Yeah, it's amateur. At that time, it wasn't really super popular, but that, that prepared me in the American rules of Sombo. Because the Athletic Commission, the, the union was, uh, no twisting submissions, no chokes. So, straight footlock, straight knee lock, and straight arm lock. So, you get good those three submissions.

• 23:15Jocko Willink?

  Only three submissions?

• 23:16Dean Lister?

  Back then, yes. Because

• 23:17Jocko Willink?

  Wow.

• 23:18Dean Lister?

  Those were the days where they thought, oh, like Steven Seagal grabs your neck and breaks it, you know?

• 23:21Jocko Willink?

  You'll die.

• 23:22Dean Lister?

  Oh, you get choked, you die, yeah. Like, oh, by the way, that ruins war movies. When I see the guy sneak it behind the guy with the machine gun. Chokes him, and the guy's like done for the movie. I'm like, he's gonna wake up in ten seconds. He's gonna shoot you. So, kinda, I had to kinda separate myself at that moment, but, but yeah. At that time, right at the time, UFC won two, PLO fought.

• 23:41Jocko Willink?

  So, it's important for people to know that there's a key element here in Sombo, is that the footlock? The straight footlock and the knee, the straight knee lock was one, was the two of the three submissions you were allowed to do.

• 23:53Dean Lister?

  Roger.

• 23:54Jocko Willink?

  And you were good at them.

• 23:57Dean Lister?

  The, the, uh, when I studied, Higgs would tell you this, uh, oh, and our good friend Jeff Higgs. Uh, I came in there and actually was submitting guys and, uh, but they didn't like that because I was a, I was a Sombo kid.

• 24:08Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right. That's right. You were the Sombo kid for a while.

• 24:11Dean Lister?

  Yeah, for a while. I used to get people in bear hugs from the guard and make them tap. I was a, I was a mean little bastard.

• 24:18Dean Lister?

  I made a, well, I don't think he's listening, but if he is, forgive me, but his name was John. It's like he was assistant coach for Fabio and he was blue belt, four stripes. I came in, I got him in full guard, bear hug. He's, ah, he tapped, he screamed and then he went, he was crying. He bumped my back from the guard. That's all I knew. So, I learned to pass.

• 24:38Jocko Willink?

  Again, you have some, you have some mutated, um, structure that is meant more for grappling than anything. It's very odd and, and, and, and I remember you, you told me you would like arm lock people in their, you'd be in their garden, you would arm lock them.

• 24:57Dean Lister?

  Yeah, they'd reach for under hook, I'd lock my, it was a posture, they'd, they'd, they'd say, I didn't know you could arm lock someone from the garden. I'm like, well, the arm's there. And they're like, well, I was taught that's wrong. And, uh, well, eventually I learned that that's not the best way to do it.

• 25:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And so then it was at UFC one where you said, oh, jiu jitsu. What's going on with that?

• 25:16Dean Lister?

  Yeah, because that was the time when chokeholds were like lethal, like you're gonna die. Well, you realize, not really. Like, you know, the second UFC, no one died. Third UFC, chokeholds actually work. And nowadays people will, can sometimes say, oh, jitsu is, it's not the most, it's really, it's a base, it's a prerequisite you have to have to even be competitive. So, yeah, very effective, very effective. And of course, the sport has evolved technically over the years. If you look at, uh, technology and technique are kind of similar because they develop over time. The technique of boxing now is different in the eighties and that's different from the fifties.

• 26:00Dean Lister?

  Football looks different now than back then. Jitsu is the same thing, right? All kinds of things happening right now that no one even envisioned back in nineteen ninety-five.

• 26:09Jocko Willink?

  And it compounds faster, right? Like if you watch how fast technology's gotten, has improved, if you watch the jiu jitsu curve, it's like the new moves, you know, back when we, when we started, there'd be like a new move. It would be like, oh my God, this is crazy that this could, someone came up with something. And now there's, you know, some blue belt tonight came up with like a sick variation of a move and, and that's just the way it works. So, it's like everyone's better.

• 26:39Dean Lister?

  I, I started eight months, I don't know, maybe one year, maybe six months before you and. So you for sure had already joined this time, but the Uomo Plata was a brand new move. And if someone did that at a tournament, I was like, oh, look, he's doing the brand new move. And I would look, take the VHS cam quarters and look at it. It was like, that was a highlight. That was like the Barimbolo or, you know, now it's Leggins, of course, so.

• 27:02Jocko Willink?

  So was it, so was it the UFC that when you watched UFC, like, oh, I gotta find a jiu-jitsu gym? And you opened up the Yellow Pages or whatever?

• 27:10Dean Lister?

  No, no, it's about Yellow Pages.

• 27:11Jocko Willink?

  What's that? Yeah, no. I remember Fabio used to have, Fabio had an ad in the San Diego Reader. That's, that's like.

• 27:18Dean Lister?

  He was like this.

• 27:19Jocko Willink?

  That's where I, that's where I remember the Fabio Santos ad in the San Diego Reader. I remember seeing that, but it was Higgs that brought me down.

• 27:25Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Jocko Willink?

  Cause Higgs had been training there for a while. So you, you, I mean, you were good fast, right?

• 27:36Dean Lister?

  Sometimes like I'll think, man, I'm really faltering here. Uh, nothing's happening. And then next month I realize I'm twice as good as I was.

• 27:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:46Dean Lister?

  And I'll go, what happened? And then I feel like I'm losing ground. I think that's because you're learning. Sometimes you, you learn a little bit, but because it's something new.

• 27:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:54Dean Lister?

  Might be better. You actually go down in performance.

• 27:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:57Dean Lister?

  Because you, you don't have that down yet.

• 28:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 28:00Dean Lister?

  And then of course you get it down and a higher level of technique. Now you're up to here.

• 28:03Jocko Willink?

  I explain that to businesses a lot. Like businesses want to implement a new process. And I'm like, you have to tell the people that out of the gate, you're going to get less efficient. When you implement a new process, you're going to get less efficient. Then once you master the new process, you'll get more efficient. It's the same thing with jiu-jitsu. You start implementing a new move, you're going to get worse. And then once you master the move or you get good at the move, then you'll start getting better again. Did we?

• 28:27Dean Lister?

  Jocko, real fast.

• 28:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 28:28Dean Lister?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna lend to you an analogy for that. That's very simple. I heard nowadays, kids don't even learn cursive. And I heard that, I don't know. But you learn printing and a few years of writing your name. They put glitter on it, you give it to your mom, she puts it in the fridge. So it's a little kid writing, but after a few years, you're writing your name and you could write. And say, we're gonna learn cursive now. Well, your cursive looks way more jacked up than your printing, but it's a more advanced form of writing. So you get that down. And then back then, by the way, there's no typing in high school. That was ju- or it was college. So in college, you learn typing. Initially, you're just like, you're slower than you would write. But eventually, we learn typing. See, so your, your performance declines until you get a more advanced thing

• 29:11Dean Lister?

  down in your head. All of a sudden, you can type fifty words, sixty words a minute. That's a more advanced, more efficient way of typing or writing. So that's a good way I express that idea to people who may not be in business. That's a simple way like that. Makes sense?

• 29:25Jocko Willink?

  That does make sense. I, I'm trying to think, so.

• 29:28Dean Lister?

  Analogy.

• 29:29Jocko Willink?

  Um. So we, you and I, I don't know why, but you and I immediately started training together like super hard all the time.

• 29:37Dean Lister?

  You were, you were one of the guys, like I mentioned, if I say, that's kind of scary, oh, I gotta do it. Also, if I say, it would, it would, it would suck to be mounted. I'll, I'll on purpose start mounted. And if we roll out of bounds. Most people, Jaco is one of the few guys that if we roll out of bounds and, and I have a good position on him, he will insist we start in the, and I'll, I'll argue just actually like, no, put your arm back where it was, because I actually wanna have it reset to what's harder for me. So if I go to bounds, uh, that, I think that's why. And the first time I saw you, Higgs, he's like, I have a friend named Jaco, man, he gets involved. He, he's, he's just kinda like, man, you'll know, you'll, you'll see me, you'll just know. And I'm like, okay.

• 30:19Dean Lister?

  So I knew you were coming in and you walked in and you were like, Roger, yeah. And first day, you got, you got arm locked and, and no emotion, just you sit like that, turn and just.

• 30:32Dean Lister?

  So I was like, it's it's pretty hardcore, you know? Yeah, yeah. But you were training hard. You were training hard. I was training hard too.

• 30:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, I I remember, I just remember like almost immediately I was training with you a lot. Maybe it's because we were, I don't know.

• 30:47Dean Lister?

  We would, we would spend three hours after Saturday.

• 30:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 30:50Dean Lister?

  Talking on the mat about things and techniques, like literally two hours open mat, three hours of more technique. Every Sat, that's Saturday. Of course, times were different back then.

• 31:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But I was going crazy thinking about the fact and there's, and so I don't know if this is, you guys can tell me if this is insecurity or what, but I, like Higgs came to my house and Higgs was now, Higgs had just got his purple belt. And he came to my house and he, well, he called me and he's like, hey, you want to train? He's like, hey, you want to train? And I said, yeah, I said, yeah, come on over, man. And you know, I was bigger than Higgs and he was long and his legs go up to like his sternum. So his legs, he's like, he's a mutant too. And.

• 31:36Dean Lister?

  Triangle.

• 31:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And so he came over and we went in the grass across the street from my house. And he just worked me over and I was like, and so again, you tell me if this is insecurity, but I was like, I never want to have another man be able to impose his will on me like that. That is not the way I want to go through life.

• 31:55Dean Lister?

  Way to look at things.

• 31:56Jocko Willink?

  So by the time, so I literally went down to Fabio's the next day and, and signed up. And he's like, do you want to try a class? And I was like, no, I just want to sign up unlimited classes, 165 bucks a month. Here, take my money, train. And I remember, oh, I remember you couldn't go immediately into the advanced class. You had to just take the beginners class. And I, I don't know if I talked to him or I told him like, hey, I can't get here until later or sometimes can I just do it? And he, and he was pretty cool, you know, he just said, yeah. And then, and so those times where, you know, I just wanted to learn as much as I possibly, possibly, possibly could. Because I didn't want to be at the disposal of some other human being's will.

• 32:41Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 32:41Jocko Willink?

  It's an awful feeling. There are some people that don't like that feeling and so they avoid it completely.

• 32:46Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 32:46Jocko Willink?

  That's actually the more common, that's the more common reaction. The more common reaction is, oh, I don't like that situation because I get dominated and I have to submit to another man. Or woman, by the way.

• 33:01Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 33:02Jocko Willink?

  I have to submit to this other man or woman and I hate that, so I'm just never gonna get in this situation. The problem is, as we know in life, you can't always avoid those situations and those situations can present themselves and you can't do anything about it. So, so you and I just started training like maniacs.

• 33:21Dean Lister?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 33:23Jocko Willink?

  The thing I was thinking about, for, for some reason, even in the beginning, we did no gi. We would take our gi's off sometimes.

• 33:32Dean Lister?

  Which we would get yelled at sometimes.

• 33:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and, and, and for me, luckily, I would teach guys in the teams and I would, I just would always wear no gi. I would just always wear a t-shirt and cami pants. That was like the standard. I was like, if you want to train, yeah, t-shirt, cami pants, barefoot. And so I was almost immediately training no gi because I was training at the team and I would be training guys even though we weren't highly skilled. But I was at least understanding that there were some nuanced differences because I didn't have the wrestling background that you had.

• 33:59Dean Lister?

  Yeah. That's good because, you know, if you rely upon the uniform only, and that's only how you train, no uniform, how are you gonna be?

• 34:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. So then the other big thing here is, I mean, we were competing a lot back then.

• 34:16Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 34:17Jocko Willink?

  We were competing a lot and those old school jujitsu tournaments were freaking awesome back in the day. They were, they were super, um, they were crazy. They were crazy jujitsu tournaments back in the day.

• 34:31Dean Lister?

  That Armenian guy and there was a riot.

• 34:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it was crazy.

• 34:36Dean Lister?

  And it was, it was crazy. It was 500 Brazilians and like 20 Armenian guys. And by the way, my coach, he had a thing with that coach and, and I'm not gonna say what he said, but it wasn't very nice. The guy actually took me down, 2-0, and had me in a foot. I almost broke my foot. But I escaped and I won 18-2. The guy was tough, but I beat him. And Fabio's coaching me, oh, sorry. He's coaching me and of course the other coach is an Armenian, same as, I don't speak Armenian, but uh, for some reason that guy is not an official jujitsu guy, more like a judo, sambo, whatever variant, and right afterwards.

• 35:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Dean Lister?

  And because of that, there was a riot and

• 35:21Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu.

• 35:22Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 35:22Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu.

• 35:23Dean Lister?

  And it was because of my match.

• 35:25Jocko Willink?

  Hundreds of, hundreds of people chanting Jiu Jitsu. And the Judo, the, the Armenian guys were, but they were actually, they were great dudes.

• 35:32Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 35:32Jocko Willink?

  And like, it was like the Karo Parisian crew. It was all those guys. They were wicked hard fighters. They were, they were tough as hell. And they were, and they were, uh, connected to Judo Jean LaBelle.

• 35:44Dean Lister?

  Yes, that's right.

• 35:44Jocko Willink?

  So it was like total respect, but.

• 35:47Dean Lister?

  I had respect.

• 35:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there was respect. I think the disrespect came more from the Brazilian side. And well, I mean, we were certainly associated with the Brazilians because we had a Brazilian coach and we were doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. But, uh, yeah, there was some, there was some mayhem, but.

• 36:03Dean Lister?

  That guy Kar, his in Karo.

• 36:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:05Dean Lister?

  And actually he's like a mathematician now. He's just like, I'm not, I'm not going to fight anymore. I'm a doctorate. You know, just was. You find some strange people in the sport. I mean, in a good way, that guy, he broke two people's feet. This is back in the day when they let, it was a little more hardcore.

• 36:22Jocko Willink?

  It was, it was, uh, it was, it was disrespectful to, to tap to a footlock.

• 36:29Dean Lister?

  Yes.

• 36:29Jocko Willink?

  You know, like, oh, you can't tap to that. Uh, you know, those don't work almost.

• 36:34Dean Lister?

  Technical.

• 36:34Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's not technically, you shouldn't tap to that. So guys would just get their foot broken by these, you know, cause again, look at Judo Jean, Jean LaBelle. I mean, his, his repertoire of.

• 36:45Dean Lister?

  Super strong.

• 36:45Jocko Willink?

  Of, of submissions is freaking crazy.

• 36:48Dean Lister?

  Brutal.

• 36:48Jocko Willink?

  And brutal. And so all those guys were coming in with that whole game, plus their whatever sombo background they had. And there were some good, good competitions and it was total mayhem. But so I was thinking like the Machado Invitational, which I think you won that like.

• 37:04Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 37:04Jocko Willink?

  Four or five times. You were the champion.

• 37:06Dean Lister?

  Yeah, I think four times.

• 37:07Jocko Willink?

  Uh, the Gracie National, you won that a bunch of times.

• 37:11Dean Lister?

  Yeah, you were there. That's right.

• 37:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The grappler's quest.

• 37:15Jocko Willink?

  Back in the day, that's still going too.

• 37:17Dean Lister?

  Yes.

• 37:17Jocko Willink?

  Grappler's Quest. Remember the grappling games?

• 37:21Dean Lister?

  Remember neutral grounds?

• 37:22Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's the last one I had. The last one I had was neutral grounds. Neutral grounds.

• 37:26Dean Lister?

  That was in the hood.

• 37:28Jocko Willink?

  It was in the hood in LA, yeah.

• 37:30Dean Lister?

  And, and the cage, someone didn't finish the, the fence where, uh, correctly. It cut you. The fence, it was, I mean, it was.

• 37:38Jocko Willink?

  Straight cage match like WWE style.

• 37:41Dean Lister?

  It was in the back, in the hood, in this backyard, and there's like 200 guys who are just like, "God!" And yelling, uh, no one's throwing anything, but almost, it's like, it made a, like, like environment, but not punches that day. And there's Rico Rodriguez was there, Higgs.

• 37:57Jocko Willink?

  I, I, yeah, I went against Rico Rodriguez.

• 38:00Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 38:01Jocko Willink?

  I lost. Um, you, didn't you go against?

• 38:06Dean Lister?

  Well, him as well, yeah. Yeah, well, let's see, oh my goodness. Yeah, I had two matches. Higgs also, we both won. He beat, uh, Hickson's guy, Bo Hush.

• 38:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he was, he was like a beast.

• 38:16Dean Lister?

  He was, he was one of the, the.

• 38:18Jocko Willink?

  That was an incredible match because Higgs was kinda getting, you know, Higgs was a lot smaller than him. Well, maybe not a lot, but he was 30 or 40 pounds smaller than him.

• 38:26Dean Lister?

  Higgs has a little bit, he's, he's, uh, very confident, but he's a little more reserved.

• 38:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 38:32Dean Lister?

  And Bo is a little more physically intimidating looking.

• 38:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 38:36Dean Lister?

  He's a coaty, just big guy, and Higgs just.

• 38:39Jocko Willink?

  And they went at it and then Higgs caught him in a triangle.

• 38:42Dean Lister?

  Triangle arm lock, yeah.

• 38:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was, that was nice. And who, yeah, you had, didn't you have a guy that like wouldn't give up? Was that you?

• 38:50Dean Lister?

  Oh no, that was Carl, the same guy against Rico.

• 38:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right.

• 38:54Dean Lister?

  He was unconscious.

• 38:55Jocko Willink?

  But not just unconscious where you wake up like 30 seconds later. Unconscious, unconscious. From a grappling match, bro.

• 39:01Dean Lister?

  His coach is like, "Oh, he's fine. He's, I'm like, he's okay." He's like, "Oh, he's fine." He's like, "He's not moving. He's not moving." And I'm like, "I think I see his chest moving also, like, he's not dead." I'm like, "Are you sure? I know, he's fine. He's trying to pick him." The guy's like limp. The guy's so tough, then tapped that head and arm, but match was over. He had a head and arm for like two minutes.

• 39:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 39:20Dean Lister?

  That Armenian guy was tough.

• 39:21Jocko Willink?

  And that was when Rico Rodriguez weighed 300 pounds. Yes, 300 pounds.

• 39:26Dean Lister?

  And I was 170, I, I used to be 170. I faced him. I got to his back four times and he, he finally got me. And the head and arm, and 300 pounds is no joke.

• 39:35Jocko Willink?

  He, he didn't get me in the head and arm. Uh, you and I, I remember you and I on this, on this like random piece of carpet rolled out in an alley. Before the fight and we're, and you're, you and me are just drilling because we knew head and arm was his move. And so you're just going head and arm and I'm getting out of it, getting out of it, getting out of it. But he got me in a, um, was it gi?

• 39:56Dean Lister?

  Yes.

• 39:57Jocko Willink?

  It was gi.

• 39:58Dean Lister?

  He had spandex on though.

• 39:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he had, he had spandex bottoms and a gi top and he, uh, he got me in a, in an Ezekiel from my half guard. Which you know, you know, you know, the learning phases of jujitsu? When you go, I didn't know that would work. That was one of those for me. I was like, I didn't know that would work. I didn't think it would work. Like you can't put an Ezekiel on me, my half guard. And then.

• 40:21Dean Lister?

  It worked.

• 40:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 40:22Dean Lister?

  Just, just aside, there's a tangent. We're walking to the venue. We parked two blocks down and Jaco had these sunglasses on and there was these two ghetto dogs like. And these were pissed off dogs that were barking and Jaco went like this and he stared the dog and the dogs were like. It's funny because I'm like 19, you're probably like 25 and the dogs, they were, they were real confident and you gave them that devil stare and they, they. They kind of backed up. They were still barking, but they needed to just, there was a fence between us, but yeah. First time I seen a man just punk two dogs with his eyeballs. It was awesome. Kind of motivated me for the match.

• 41:01Jocko Willink?

  Actually, you know what was pretty cool? So this is one of my favorite Dean Lister stories. You were going against, again, it was one of these crazy tournaments, total mayhem. And so we're talking, this is like 90, I don't know, 97, 98, something like that. Total mayhem and you would always get, well, you'd always be in the finals or the semifinals, you know, on your way to the finals. Cause you would win every tournament. It was freaking ridiculous.

• 41:26Dean Lister?

  Well, not everyone, but yeah.

• 41:28Jocko Willink?

  Hmm. Okay. Not everyone, but most of them.

• 41:31Dean Lister?

  I would do the absolute two as I usually win my division and the absolute.

• 41:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it was awesome. And I would do, do my best, which wouldn't be as good as Dean. And, and so anyways, Dean's in this match and he's going against this Brazilian kid. And they are, they're going at it and the Brazilian guy's real super fiery, right? Super fiery Brazilian guy. And he's going crazy and, and you know, it's really.

• 41:56Jocko Willink?

  It's it's it's head touching, but it's like a head slap. You can hear the slaps happening. And you can see this guy's going all crazy. And he goes after Dean like super hard trying to get a takedown. And they fly across the mat and he's pushing and Dean's sprawl and boom and they go way out into the stands. And I'm I'm the side like in his corner. And so I just see the both of them disappear into the crowd. And the crowd's going crazy and it gets quiet and the guy comes out and he's all going crazy. He's all on fire. Then he's all, ah, he's like, come on, let's go. And he goes to the middle of the mat.

• 42:31Dean Lister?

  He smacks him out like a drum.

• 42:32Jocko Willink?

  Gets on his knees and starts slamming the mat. Ah, like he's just so crazy. And I and then I look at and then I look back at the crowd where the hole was where they came. And Dean comes walking out. He's looks totally completely, literally, he looks like the Terminator. He comes walking out, no expression on his face, comes walking out to the middle of Matt. And then he arm locked the guy like 20 seconds later and just.

• 42:59Jocko Willink?

  That was pretty awesome. That was good. And then, uh, in in that time period, right, is when you do the ADCC trials. Actually, we both did ADCC trials in 2003.

• 43:16Dean Lister?

  Oh, well, 2002, I won the the trials and then I went to Brazil. 2001, I went to Abu Dhabi. I went to Abu Dhabi and competed. I didn't win that year.

• 43:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 43:25Dean Lister?

  I was a purple belt.

• 43:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 43:26Dean Lister?

  We we did, uh, we did several big trial tournaments, uh, some that didn't materialize into actual events. We did several of these things. Abu Dhabi qualifiers, that I think that was the first one, 2001, 2002.

• 43:40Jocko Willink?

  I think it was 2002.

• 43:42Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 43:42Jocko Willink?

  And it was here in San Diego, right? At that like nice health club.

• 43:45Dean Lister?

  Yeah, the hotel.

• 43:46Jocko Willink?

  And and Kenny Florian was there. Kenny Florian was there and he was super cool. And, uh, and I went against, um,

• 43:58Jocko Willink?

  Big Country, Roy Big Country Nelson.

• 44:01Dean Lister?

  You were division up, yeah.

• 44:03Jocko Willink?

  Four to two or something.

• 44:04Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  And then you had just wars.

• 44:07Dean Lister?

  I had this all American wrestler, I don't know, good wrestling, Nate DeCharme, and he slammed my knee. I found out later that he does it on purpose. He lets you get the back and he dives and spears your knee in the ground and it damages your knee, actually. So I finished choke, I registered impact, I registered like that, that kind of hurt. But I didn't let go the choke, he tapped. And I was like, my knee doesn't feel correct. And it, my knee just rolled up like this, like double the size. And I put two, I put two knee sleeves over it. And I'm like, I don't know why, that somehow focused me. I didn't, I didn't go, oh, I'm hurt. Oh, this is my excuse to quit. I went, I went, you know, it would be really cool. This is something I did in 2003.

• 44:46Jocko Willink?

  Psychologically, you like being the underdog.

• 44:47Dean Lister?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have less pressure. I think most people like to be the favorite. I like, I like to be the one that's like, I like, I can't win. And so I had the guy from, what's his name, from Henson Gracies, from New York. And he attacked my leg.

• 45:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, went after it.

• 45:03Dean Lister?

  And, and he had me straight in the neck lock and the ref is about to stop. I looked at the ref and I went like this. And he's shaking his legs. He played like college ball, college, guy was real athletic. Patterson, Jamal Patterson, he was tough. And I got to his back, choked him. And I see you in the corner like, you're like, this evil grin just like shines through the crowd. I'm like, yeah. And then Laiman was in the finals and I won by points that one, went to Abu Dhabi. Or went to Brazil.

• 45:26Jocko Willink?

  That's also when, that's also when Eddie Bravo was at the same trials. He won the trials too.

• 45:32Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 45:33Jocko Willink?

  So that was, that was kind of a big deal.

• 45:35Dean Lister?

  And Dave Terrell won his.

• 45:36Jocko Willink?

  And Dave Terrell won his, yeah.

• 45:38Dean Lister?

  And the one who won the heavyweight was some country boy, I don't know, I forget his name. Yeah. And so we went down to Brazil and Eddie, Eddie took third, but he beat Hordick Racing. That was, that, that, I got more attention than me winning the absolute.

• 45:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, that was, well.

• 45:54Dean Lister?

  Thing. Not for some reason, I mean.

• 45:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the reason, yeah, the reason is that's spoiler. And, um, but, but yeah, you went and won the absolutes, which is, you know, it's freaking insane that you won the absolute.

• 46:06Dean Lister?

  Jaco trained me so hard. Remember the seven ups on the, on the stairs? Seven ups, these, damn, seven, I'm like, ah, seven ups. But seven ups is not like what it sounds like popping. That's seven times up the stairs and under, what, 20 seconds? If you don't get 20 seconds, you do it again. And I'm like, that's my, my imitation of Jaco. Jaco would do this. Evil Navy SEAL tactic on me where Dean jump up hit the bar and I'm like, okay, keep going, keep going. One, two. I'm like, when are we gonna stop? I don't know. Jaco has some fictitious number in his head. I have no idea, son. But if I slow down, it'd be like ninety-nine, one hundred, one hundred and one. I slow down, one hundred, ninety-nine, ninety. I'm like, I'm losing my ground. I can't stop now.

• 46:50Dean Lister?

  And the stairs was like, yeah, up and down seven times. It wasn't a long stair. Maybe three, but it was like, you have to up and down in less than thirty seconds, or you have to do it X amount of times. And I got in good shape for that.

• 47:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, then there was beams up in the top floor. This is when we were at City Boxing in downtown San Diego. There was beams and pipes. And like the beams were fourteen inches taller than the pipes up that you had to jump. So I'd be like, on the beam, beam, beam, pipe, pipe. When he was getting exhausted, I'd be like, pipe, because he's a little bit lower. But yeah, you were in sick shape and we would just grab. At that time, so, uh, at that time, I was going to college.

• 47:28Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  So I, all I had to do, I, I wasn't, I was detached from the SEAL teams.

• 47:33Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 47:34Jocko Willink?

  From two thousand, two thousand and three, and all I was doing was going to college. And all we did was train jiu-jitsu, actually.

• 47:41Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 47:41Jocko Willink?

  And we would just train and just train more and then just train after that.

• 47:45Dean Lister?

  Jaco's such a maniac. He's one of the few guys, I'd say, hey, wanna train at six in the morning, bro? Um, I'll be there at five thirty. Because why not? Why be late, you know? About nine thirty, nine o'clock at night? Yeah, sure. I don't know. He's, you'll do it, no problem. Jaco helped me cut weight one time. Remember this, uh, I was fighting at one eighty-five for the belt at King of the Cage. And, uh, two weeks before the, the fight, this is of course a fight now. Uh, Jaco was like, Dean, you look, um, kinda muscular. Like, are you, you know, say muscular, you said, uh, you're looking a little beefy, heavy? Like, what's up?

• 48:18Jocko Willink?

  Well, you said fat.

• 48:19Dean Lister?

  Yeah, you probably did. You look a little heavy, buddy. And I went, you go, how much do I weigh? I go, I'm two eighteen. And, and he went, Dean, um, what weight are you fighting in, in two weeks? I went, one eighty-five. And Jaco went, Really, um, don't you understand that thirty three pounds is like an issue and I, oh, my friend. I was twenty four, twenty five years. My friend Tony is like, oh, yeah, you you lie down in the bathtub full of Epsom salt. And you lose twenty pounds like in an hour, no problem. I'm like, okay. Jaco's like, did you try it yet? I'm like, no. Dean, you mother lazy. Get some Epsom salt, try it tonight, let me know. I'm like, all right, I'm all confident. I go get Epsom salt. I get this alcohol, like, rub me alcohol, pour in the bath.

• 49:04Dean Lister?

  I like that. Thirty minutes later, I get out, I lost like half a pound. I'm like, not twenty, half a pound. I go, I call Jaco, Jaco's like, what happened? And I'm like, or their input or something, something like, some military like. Like, report, yes. Reconnaissance, whatever.

• 49:24Dean Lister?

  Field report. So, so I I'm like, Jaco, how much did you lose, you mother?

• 49:31Dean Lister?

  I think I was like three quarters of, I think I, I think I exaggerated. Three quarters, yeah, I was like, like, you mother, maybe at the beach by my house is where, you saw both, I don't know. Yeah. On Long Branch. Yeah. And I, it's six in the morning and I go there and Jaco's like, you know. Next two weeks, you could have like a can of tuna per day and we're gonna run. And three hours, Jaco ran it with me, by the way. Most people don't do that, like. They'll watch you run. He ran me, we ran all around Point Noma and, by the way, we're going to the beach. And I'm like, oh, we're gonna run down the beach. Jaco just over the little seawall, so running to the beach, getting kind of close to the water. And uh, in the water, I'm like, okay, so I go in the water, Jaco's swimming on these cliffs and I'm, I'm like, I'm trying to catch up with him, I'm not a SEAL, I can swim.

• 50:16Dean Lister?

  I'm a strong swimmer, I'm not, he had like flippers, he didn't have flippers, I thought he did though. He's out on the surf going around these cliffs, I'm like, I've done that before, but. He he's ahead of me, I'm like tired, like this sucks, because I'm already not eating and uh, whatever, plus uh. I was younger, so you know, when you're younger, things suck more than when you're older, you realize it didn't suck that bad because you're older, you have this experience. So a three hour run all the way to Mission Beach, across the bridge, we swam through that, well, not a very clean river, just went through the San Diego River, we swam through there. A three hour run, not every day, but maybe for two weeks all the time. And I, I lost eighteen pounds. And then, of course, I lost fifteen pounds of water and I made the weight. That was terrible. That was hard. But uh, that was hard. And I fought a tough guy too. So,

• 51:01Dean Lister?

  yeah.

• 51:02Jocko Willink?

  And you won.

• 51:03Dean Lister?

  Yeah, yeah. It was a, it was a good day.

• 51:05Jocko Willink?

  You know what? I gotta go back to the uh, when you won ADCC in Brazil, because that was freaking amazing. Uh, so there's a couple of things. Number one, one of the guys that you faced was a guy named Pede Pano.

• 51:16Dean Lister?

  Pede Pano, yeah.

• 51:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and I was reading, so I couldn't go down because I was in college at the time and it was right in final exams. I couldn't, I literally could not go down with you. And so you were down there by yourself in Brazil, in enemy territory.

• 51:30Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 51:31Jocko Willink?

  And you're down there. And so I'm reading, there's something called the, it's the underground. It's the, it's the MM, it's the mixed martial arts dot com. It's the UG, which also has the OG. So it's, it's an old forum which still exists to this day. It used to be called Submission Fighting. And actually, you and I, when I was on deployment, like way back then, you and I would communicate, we didn't have email. So you and I would communicate on submissionfighting.com in the threads and uh,

• 51:59Dean Lister?

  Or the struggle.

• 52:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. And uh, so I'm reading, so what they're doing is someone is translating, like in some kind of automatic translation and they're posting what it's saying. And so it was like a literal,

• 52:14Dean Lister?

  The Americans in trouble.

• 52:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, it was a literal, it was a literal translation. And so Pede Pano means cloth foot, is that right?

• 52:20Dean Lister?

  Yeah, but it's actually uh,

• 52:21Jocko Willink?

  It's a cartoon character or something? Well, this guy, Pedro Pono, was a guy that our instructor, Fabio,

• 52:26Dean Lister?

  He's unbeatable.

• 52:27Jocko Willink?

  He, he, because Pedro Pono was this massive guy and he was a sick black belt in Jiu Jitsu. And he's like, yeah, this guy will never be beaten because he's so massive and he's so good at Jiu Jitsu.

• 52:36Dean Lister?

  No one could score a point on him, actually.

• 52:37Jocko Willink?

  He was just a dominator. And how is anyone gonna beat somebody that's that big and that skilled? And so Dean, so I'm reading, I remember I'm sitting in the parking lot of, of Home Depot for some reason. And the match is going on and I'm reading, I'm refreshing it on my, uh, phone. And it's popping up and it's slow. It's like back in the day, right? Reception's bad. And I'm reading and, and I remember this thing, it says, it says, "The cloth foot has a choke in deep." "The American must have a tube to his lungs because he is not tapping." And I was like, "Yes, Dean." And then you beat him and, uh, man, you beat, and, and then you went on a one. That was a, that was a big deal, man.

• 53:21Dean Lister?

  Yeah, he beat, I mean, he beat Verduum that day and then, well, in their own division and, uh, but he cheated in that match.

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 53:29Dean Lister?

  By the way, Pedro Pono's the only guy, he wouldn't shake my hand. You, I'm not talking smack, he wasn't a very gracious, uh, you know. By the way, you can tell a lot about a person, how, how they conduct themselves when they win and also how they lose. So, by the way, he was smashing me when the points didn't count. But he was, you know, forty pounds heavier than me. So the big guy, six foot six, six foot seven.

• 53:48Jocko Willink?

  He's six foot six?

• 53:50Dean Lister?

  Yeah, big guy. Yeah. He's two hundred and sixty, seventy pounds. Yeah. And, uh, but he, uh, he, he won against Verduum, but he cheated. I, I saw the tape and he put his arm on the, uh, uh, it was in a submission, out of bounds. He cheated when they restarted. So the crowd, the crowd was angry.

• 54:07Jocko Willink?

  He was in a submission about to get tapped?

• 54:09Dean Lister?

  He wasn't in, but he was on the verge of it being locked in, but he kind of moved his arm. So he would, he started in a more favorable position. So that was the one match where the Brazilians were kind of cheering for me. Otherwise, no, they were cheering for the other Brazilians. But, so when I won, uh, people were kind of like happy.

• 54:24Jocko Willink?

  So who was the first match against?

• 54:25Dean Lister?

  First match was Nate Markwart.

• 54:26Jocko Willink?

  Nate Markwart. You beat him by Kamira.

• 54:28Dean Lister?

  Tough guy. Yeah. Awesome.

• 54:29Jocko Willink?

  God, that was brutal.

• 54:31Dean Lister?

  Yeah. And then Salo Higero.

• 54:33Jocko Willink?

  And then Salo.

• 54:34Dean Lister?

  And Salo was already the five-time world champion at the time. I was a brown belt. So it was kind of, for me, it was weird. I, I had less pressure in the harder division.

• 54:45Dean Lister?

  Where I was the last guy, I was the number sixteen of the world.

• 54:51Dean Lister?

  It was, I don't know why it just.

• 54:52Jocko Willink?

  Well, you, like I said, you like to be the underdog.

• 54:54Dean Lister?

  Yeah, I, I don't, I don't, I wish I could describe what happened that day because if I could replicate that, I don't know what happened. Eric Paulson said, he said, Dean had a golden aura around him, I saw it. I don't see auras yet, but I'm working there. One day I wanna see, I like that gift, but.

• 55:13Jocko Willink?

  And so these guys, I mean, Salo is like, like you said, five time, I mean, he's just one of the best.

• 55:17Dean Lister?

  Also his brother, Jeanji, in history, both of them.

• 55:20Jocko Willink?

  Unbelievable jujitsu players. And then you, and then it was Pedapano. And then in the finals.

• 55:27Dean Lister?

  It was Kakareko.

• 55:28Jocko Willink?

  It was Kakareko.

• 55:29Dean Lister?

  Alejandro Ferreira, and he.

• 55:31Jocko Willink?

  He's a beast.

• 55:32Dean Lister?

  Yeah, he, he's known for, he actually was a good sport, but he, he, he had the reputation that Tokio has today. He would hurt people. He actually footlocked Jeanji that day. He guilted him, Comprido, that day, and he beat Fabiusa Verdugo, also just by coincidence, the same guy, eight, zero, five, zero. And then Fabiusa beat Pedapano in the third, fourth match. So, so that was kinda like, you know, I guess his payback, you know, so he won. So, it was a good day. And the finals, I was told this guy has the best guilt in the world and the best footlocks in Brazil for sure. And he's the best wrestler in Brazil. So I'm like, I thought about like, who is guilty? Be careful, it's guilty. I thought to myself, I'm not trying to act courageous, nothing like that, but I said to myself, that would really suck. And I go,

• 56:16Dean Lister?

  I like kinda, maybe I could feel how guilty he is, you know? And so I grabbed his legs and he went for it. I was like, let me see how it is.

• 56:23Dean Lister?

  Not that I wanted, yeah, kinda, I wanted to escape it. It's kinda weird.

• 56:27Jocko Willink?

  And he went to play with the fire.

• 56:28Dean Lister?

  And I was, yeah, and I was in it, and he really, I hear, I hear the crowd yelling and I hear the crowd get silent because he has me so tight. Not over my ears, but I'm getting choked, really. Somehow, I guess I'm slightly resistant to submissions, I heard. And, and I, I'm thinking, I can see the light, the light of the tunnel. And he started getting a little tired and.

• 56:47Jocko Willink?

  And you had your elbow on his.

• 56:49Dean Lister?

  Yeah, yeah, that was, technically, that was the reason, but, but I have maybe a resistant neck or something. Um, so he eventually got tired, let go and I saw his eyes and he was just, I got him. I knew at that moment and then we started in the middle and I went for a footlock and he was real calm. Footlock and that fifty fifty, we didn't call it fifty fifty.

• 57:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:07Dean Lister?

  I said, let's try it and I did it and his eyes, you could see he doesn't know what's going on.

• 57:11Jocko Willink?

  Confusion.

• 57:12Dean Lister?

  And he went, aye, tap, well, more of a macho, aye, but I got him. And then of course, I, I actually couldn't believe it at the moment because Abu Dhabi is, well, it's the equivalent of the Olympics for our sport and it's the, there are Olympic wrestlers in Abu Dhabi. There's sombo guys, there's Olympic judo guys, the best jiu jitsu guys are in this and it's, a whole world's invited and the winner gets forty G's, baby. So. There's no other tournament that pays that much. I was twenty seven.

• 57:42Jocko Willink?

  Damn, that was a lot of money, man. You were like, oh, yeah, yeah, it is.

• 57:47Dean Lister?

  Yeah. And uh, it was funny, uh, so I'm, I'm number sixteen, but I, I have no co, Margarita came down.

• 57:55Jocko Willink?

  You keep saying you're number sixteen, you were the number sixteen seed.

• 57:58Dean Lister?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 57:59Jocko Willink?

  And, and that's how you.

• 58:00Dean Lister?

  I ended up being one, but so I'm warming up, I have no coach until Margarita came down for, for the, the last three matches. I'm shadow boxing, I have no, everyone's wrestling with their coach, I'm just like shadow boxing, I look like a weirdo. By the way, I, I didn't think I was gonna begin the tournament, so I wore my Brazilian titties. Cause I don't usually fight in the, or compete in those, I usually wear surf trunks, but I'm like, ah, in case I'm invited, I'll put my, my sweatpants over these, so I'm in my speed, basically speedos. Warming up, shadow boxing all by myself and I look up and there's just only Brazilian girls looking down at me like, and I'm like, oh damn. And one girl goes, hey, come here and I shouldn't have done it, but you know,

• 58:39Dean Lister?

  this girl could have been on the, on the cover of a magazine and I went, wanted, and she said, hey, hi, how you doing? And Portuguese was not that good back then. I was like, oh, tudo bem, you what, I'm good, how are you? And she said, in Portuguese, oh, you're not Brazilian, are you? And I said, no. And she went, ah, and she turned her back and walked. She called me over and then turned me away, it's jacked up. So, so I'm like, alright, let's, stop, stop, focus, focus. And then uh, I got through this and then at this moment, I don't know why this is, but the champion gets like ninety-five percent of the attention. The guy that took second is equal level of me. Maybe he could beat me a different day, I must admit, I'm not gonna say I can never lose to that guy, he's really good. But I have a line, a thousand people waiting to meet me and take pictures with me.

• 59:24Dean Lister?

  So I'm in the, I'm still in my Brazilian tidies, you know, and uh,

• 59:28Jocko Willink?

  Hot pants.

• 59:29Dean Lister?

  I'm getting guys like, hey, what's up? Hey, and girls, and hey, kids, and you know, and take a picture. And as, after a half hour, I see this girl, like eight people down going like, hi, remember me? Hi. And I'm like, I'm like, mental note, like, so she, she waits, she waited like an hour to meet me and she finally, with an earshot, she's like, in Portuguese, remember me? Hi, I knew you could do it. She's saying this Portuguese and I'm like, yeah, whatever. So she gets up to me and I'm sure the average guy would have, would have caved into this, but I, I skipped her. Just like that. And uh, she had this little puppy dog look, this hurt eyes on her. That was like,

• 1:00:02Jocko Willink?

  You were the true champion.

• 1:00:03Dean Lister?

  Moral victory of that day. It was awesome. So.

• 1:00:06Jocko Willink?

  The uh, when, when you were doing that, I remember and when you, getting ready for that, first of all, we trained freaking hard. Like just crazy. And I remember Sarge since to push you hard, as hard as we possibly could, like Sarge, cause Sarge's a better wrestler than me. He would do the takedowns with you and then as soon as you guys would hit the mat, I would jump on top of you. That's right. And that way and get, get you just as tired as we get you. But also, I didn't think about it this way. But man, a lot of times when you and I would be training, like we would just sit there and try and footlock each other for a half an hour. I mean, it would be like, it's, which is weird because now that's very common to see.

• 1:00:45Dean Lister?

  No one was really doing that actually.

• 1:00:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no one was doing it back then. And now you see tournaments and that's what the tournament is. It's just a bunch of people trying to footlock each other.

• 1:00:53Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Jocko Willink?

  And they'll sit there, heel hook, footlock. And when, when we were doing it, that's why, like, like when I look back on it, I was like, no one was doing that. You would never see anyone sit there and trade footlocks and heel hooks for 20 minutes. As, and we're, we're actually rolling, trying to submit each other, but we're just trading and trading and trading. And that gave you such an advantage.

• 1:01:15Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:16Jocko Willink?

  When, you know, you knew moves, you had techniques that were just, no one even understood the position and. Now you hear John Donahue talking about it, you know, and I heard John Donahue talking about the fact that, you know, he teaches his guys to get people in a position that the other person isn't comfortable with, right? And that's, that's what you were doing way, way back then was, hey, I'm going to take you to somewhere that you do not understand what's happening and you will be confused and I'm going to crush you. And on top of that, you know, your natural, like I said, a mutant skills and all that. And it just turns into, uh, well, I guess it turns into world championship is what it turns into.

• 1:01:55Dean Lister?

  It was a good day. You know, you know, uh, the 50, it became, what I won with the 50 50, I didn't, I didn't have a name for that position. I, I was reading Portuguese from some respectable older guys, I won't say their names, but people I looked up to were saying basically, this is a disaster. This gringo, gringo means foreigner. It's not a slur. It just means foreigner. Damn foreigners coming down here. This is not jujitsu. What the hell? Repeated by different people. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, I looked at my gold medal and my trophy and I'm like, I don't feel so bad actually, you know? But that, three months later, I hear about a position called the 50 50. I'm like, I want

• 1:02:37Dean Lister?

  to see it. And I go, oh, now it's accepted. It's a Brazilian move now. Also, the one, the move I got solo in, no one was doing that knee lock. Now, now it's commonplace. Uh, crowbar, I forget if it was you or me that came up with the idea, but you for sure came up with the name crowbar. I heard in Russia, crowbar. And they're doing crowbar in, with a cage. I'm like, man, that's spit around. So like, and, uh, man, all these kinds of things. Um, you know what? Maybe someone's done it before me, but you brought a legit, actual military gas mask on the treadmill. You're like, Dean puts it on, like, what the hell? And I just, I just, I look like, like from a damn horror movie, like, and so now everyone's wearing gas mask, train mask when they do trains. But these aren't

• 1:03:20Dean Lister?

  real gas masks. This is actual, I'm running. So I was like, if you slow down, we're out in another 20 minutes. I'm like, okay. I did it. I didn't complain, but yeah, we, we were like doing stuff before most people. It was, it was good times.

• 1:03:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was pretty awesome. And also at this whole time period, you were also fighting MMA. And, and you were. King of the Cage, you fought a bunch of fights in King of the Cage, you were the middleweight champion in King of the Cage. Pretty, and then that's when King of the Cage was sort of the feeder organization for Pride, which was when Pride was the equivalent of the UFC. In everywhere in the world. You know, it was, it was very, very popular. The fights were awesome. They had the best fighters.

• 1:04:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, I can't say they had the best fighters because they had, they had equivalent fighters of.

• 1:04:08Dean Lister?

  I think they were one notch, at that time, I think they were one notch above you.

• 1:04:12Jocko Willink?

  Some of them, but some of them came to the UFC and didn't do as well as, well.

• 1:04:16Dean Lister?

  Yeah, but some guys went to Pride.

• 1:04:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it worked both ways.

• 1:04:20Dean Lister?

  Different rules.

• 1:04:20Jocko Willink?

  I'll say it's equivalent. I won't say it's better. It was definitely, it was definitely, so you were in the feeder organization for Pride and then, and then you went to Pride.

• 1:04:27Dean Lister?

  But King of the Cage was third, was considered the third hardest in the world.

• 1:04:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't even think, yeah, underneath that was just completely unknown things. And you and I got lucky because, well, I got lucky because I was hanging out with you and we would go to Japan and we saw some pretty, pretty crazy fights in Japan, too.

• 1:04:46Dean Lister?

  We, my goodness, the stories we have. Remember that, remember that time, we were at this pool hall, like, it's late night, like 1:30, I don't know, whatever it was, midnight maybe. We're playing pool and there's this VIP area. It's, it's actual a pool lounge. And there's this, this big Japanese bodyguard there and what's behind, you hear music and stuff. And I started getting there, he's like, he's like, like, I guess that means no, you can't come in. And we were just there and Hoise, that's when, that's when he had, he lost to Yoshida. He's come by with a bunch of, let's say, connected Japanese friends. And he sees us, he goes, hey, Dean Chalk, and gets us in there.

• 1:05:27Dean Lister?

  And it's, it's like a karaoke lounge and it was Lionel Richie's, uh, voice coach was singing there.

• 1:05:34Jocko Willink?

  I don't remember that.

• 1:05:35Dean Lister?

  Yeah, it was, it was just nuts. And, and.

• 1:05:38Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I met Lionel Richie's voice coach. What's up?

• 1:05:41Dean Lister?

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:05:42Jocko Willink?

  That's how I roll. That, we saw, so seeing those big fights in Japan, when we saw. No Gira fight Bob Sapp so No Gira was No Gira's a hundred or sorry 230 pounds maybe 240 Yeah Bob Sapp's 350 pounds he beat the living crap out of No Gira for however long

• 1:06:04Dean Lister?

  Seven minutes yeah

• 1:06:05Jocko Willink?

  And then No Gira got him in an arm lock

• 1:06:07Dean Lister?

  Umplata sweep arm lock

• 1:06:10Jocko Willink?

  That was crazy

• 1:06:11Dean Lister?

  It was in the national stadium there's like 120 thousand people in the crowd

• 1:06:14Jocko Willink?

  They had kettle drums do you know what those are Echo you know what a kettle drum is Just big giant drums and there was a troop of Japanese drum players so when this thing kicked off these guys are surrounding the top of the stadium with kettle drums

• 1:06:30Jocko Willink?

  It was on fire and Dean and I were there you know and we flew actually flew over with with Hoist for those things

• 1:06:37Dean Lister?

  Bergam was there I think

• 1:06:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah that's right man it was just

• 1:06:40Dean Lister?

  I think Bergam was in the walkout entourage or something you know he was somewhere else but guys were parachuting in like remember that

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah

• 1:06:49Dean Lister?

  It was Inoki Inoki is like he's like he has a camera he's like I'm at 20,000 feet and he's like I'm falling and he is like and They come down they land like in the ring it was crazy it was good times

• 1:07:00Jocko Willink?

  And then you ended up you know obviously since you're the king of the cage champion you ended up going to Pride you had some sick fights in Pride you fought uh Well you beat Soji

• 1:07:09Dean Lister?

  Yeah

• 1:07:09Jocko Willink?

  And he was a he was like a warrior

• 1:07:11Dean Lister?

  Yeah

• 1:07:11Jocko Willink?

  And then you had a beast of a fight against Arona

• 1:07:14Dean Lister?

  I also faced this uh and then I I well I didn't get to fight Paolo Filo because he got his um he got his leg broken Um but I also fought Amarsulov from Russia it sounds like some of these things sound like I'm making them up but he legitimately became a hitman for the Russian something The syndicate in Russia he killed a couple politicians and they arrested him because apparently you can't do that and

• 1:07:41Jocko Willink?

  Is that confirmed?

• 1:07:43Dean Lister?

  He died in prison of cancer and in Russia if you kill a few politicians they just go we're not gonna take care of your cancer too much he just let him rot away he died like Died like two years ago so he's in prison that guy you've seen him before just his nose was just probably broken that guy became a hitman And so I fought that guy and Arona was that was a hard match that wasn't I'll take ownership of the situation I'm not I'm not making excuses but Explanation wise it was not I was not

• 1:08:11Dean Lister?

  My normal self for that fight. But it was a hard fight. I lost by decision. It was good. It was good. Hundred thousand people in the crowd. It was awesome. You walked out. In San Diego. My friend Tim, uh, Tim Comas. Tim Ford. Tim Comas now. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Back then it was different. Yeah, yeah. He, uh, he made, I walked into one of the songs. Yeah, San Diego. And Hans was there. It was good. It was good times. Brent was there.

• 1:08:40Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then eventually you get picked up by UFC. So.

• 1:08:45Dean Lister?

  I transferred at the right time. Two thousand five, six, I just transferred. It was a perfect time to transfer, actually.

• 1:08:51Jocko Willink?

  I had some good scraps. I was actually in, in overseas now, cause I was back at the team for a while. So I was kinda out of the, uh, out of the fight game for a little bit. I was still training. I trained when I was with you, but, um, you had a bunch of fights in UFC.

• 1:09:07Dean Lister?

  By the way, make sure that I, I don't forget to tell the Kill Jocko story. I gotta tell that story later.

• 1:09:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, just tell it right now.

• 1:09:15Dean Lister?

  Well, I'll see. But, but, um, okay, so I was not, maybe I was in Pride at the time. Jocko went to, I don't know, Afghan. He was somewhere.

• 1:09:24Jocko Willink?

  I think it was my first deployment to Iraq.

• 1:09:26Dean Lister?

  For a couple of months and, uh.

• 1:09:28Jocko Willink?

  Then it was, maybe I was just doing a workup or something.

• 1:09:30Dean Lister?

  Maybe a few, I'm not sure. But you were gone and, um, you come back and my mom had this, uh, medication. I, I had acne and, well, I'll tell you this, it was some kind of antibiotic. Helped it, but I didn't know. It made me really weak and, uh, took my endurance away. This is actually true. This is not an excuse.

• 1:09:49Jocko Willink?

  No, this is an excuse. That's fine.

• 1:09:50Dean Lister?

  Sure. So Jocko comes back and I'm, I'm not really feeling like I'm talking to this train. I'm like, okay. And Jocko like kicks my ass and Jocko's like, literally he's angry. He's like, you lazy motherfucker. I'm, I'm in the desert. I'm doing this and you, you're sitting on your ass here in San Diego doing nothing and I kicked your ass and and I'm like, uh, I'm just like, I'm like ashamed of myself cause, cause and then you go away for like a month somewhere. You're gone and I'm like, and I, but that medication were at 10 days and I stopped. I feel strong again. I'm like, oh, I understand now. So I'm training. I'm like, mother, when the guy comes back, I can't wait for this. I made a CD. Kill Jaco and it was had like corn and metallic and so Jaco came in I'm like hey Jaco and I put this

• 1:10:32Dean Lister?

  in and we train and that was my day I guess I think I was like talking shit to you like you

• 1:10:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah

• 1:10:40Dean Lister?

  My feelings were hurt

• 1:10:41Jocko Willink?

  And here's what sucks for me is so if if both of us are on point I'm get I'm catching a beat down if so if both of us are bringing our A game I'm catching a beat down if Dean's bringing his A game and I'm bringing my week game I'm catching a beat down if I'm bringing my full A game and Dean's having a horrible day I could do like barely okay so it's like

• 1:11:04Dean Lister?

  You have your days brother you have your days

• 1:11:06Jocko Willink?

  The day the really good days that I have are are very few I have to I have to earn them I'll put it to you that way I have to earn them and um then so you do UFC you do decent UFC you have some tough fights

• 1:11:20Dean Lister?

  I was I was top three four ranked in my division my my only two losses by decision was Nate Mark and Yushin Okami and they both after that fight fired Enes and Silva so I was two times right there for the battle I was top five top four no I don't care top what I fought to fight in Silva and I lost both those matches but the other four I won and my first fight was Elisa Sakara who's from Italy he's really tough fighter fat he probably the fastest hands and actually I figured this out later I was the underdog but they were actually trying to feed me to him he was gonna fight Chuck Liddell

• 1:11:54Jocko Willink?

  Oh you were stepping stone

• 1:11:55Dean Lister?

  Well supposedly

• 1:11:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah supposed to be

• 1:11:57Dean Lister?

  And they were already planning like he's gonna fight Chuck Liddell cuz he has probably he has faster hands he probably Chuck has a really good chin better wrestling but Sakara has faster hands better boxing so I'll have them fight after that's what I heard but that day I got in the same triangle I got Shojia Kieran and but he topped Shojia Kieran went to sleep so both my debuts were won by the same move and against tough guys so then I fought another Japanese opponent I fought a Bulgarian Olympic wrestler I fought Nate Mark Yushin Okami and I fought Jeremy Horn so six fights in UFC so my career has been focused on jiu-jitsu more no gi is because when you do MMA you don't you don't have a gi or kimono on so it kind of wasting your time if you're training

• 1:12:42Dean Lister?

  And that aspect, and you don't have a gi on, you can't, how to grab the belt, how to do this, you're kind of wasting your time. So, yeah. I've distributed my time between mixed martial arts and grappling, jiu-jitsu.

• 1:12:53Jocko Willink?

  And, and you weren't done either, because you went back in 2011.

• 1:12:57Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:58Jocko Willink?

  You went back, and, well, 2009, was that 2009?

• 1:13:02Dean Lister?

  2009, we were in Barcelona, Spain, Barcelona, and, um, yeah, I was just, well, coming out biceps surgery, it wasn't, it wasn't my year, yeah.

• 1:13:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and those were some close matches. I mean, I was thinking about it.

• 1:13:13Dean Lister?

  Double overtime to Vinnie Magalas, and we, next year, we both won our divisions, gold medal, so it was the first match in the absolute. And he won, it was double overtime, 0-0, and, well.

• 1:13:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the judges.

• 1:13:25Dean Lister?

  We were looking at each other like, ah, and he raised his hand.

• 1:13:28Jocko Willink?

  Who, did he have an umapad on you, or did you have an umapad?

• 1:13:31Dean Lister?

  I think that's why he won, because I had, I had him in two foot locks.

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right, you had him in two foot locks, he had him in one umapad.

• 1:13:36Dean Lister?

  But the umapads are more jiu-jitsu-ish, I think that's why, yeah, and then, um, yeah, 2011, I, I don't know why, probably was a harder tournament, but I'm not saying, it wasn't easy.

• 1:13:47Jocko Willink?

  The golden aura came back?

• 1:13:50Dean Lister?

  I don't know why, I don't, I have no idea why, but I, yeah, I just showed up and first match, it was a hard match, actually, it was my friend Augusto Farai from Sao Paulo, Brazil, very tough guy.

• 1:14:04Dean Lister?

  I thought that I'm top three or four seeded, right, I was wrong, he was, he was like three, and I was number 14. Because now I'm a 30, I'm 35, and he's like 25, so I was like, ah, this, get this old guy out of here.

• 1:14:17Jocko Willink?

  Get this old guy, knock him out of this thing.

• 1:14:18Dean Lister?

  I won, I'm like, that was the, one of the lowest ranked guys, that was a hard match. My points, second guy was the European champion, I foot locked him like two minutes, and then we have one day to rest, and I'm facing Raul Javier, who's and, um, no one can beat this guy, and, uh, he's like 21, and I'm 35. And this, it was, it was, it was in Nottingham, England. I can't, I can't do that accent, damn it. But Nottingham, England, we were there. And at the hotel, I popped my rib. I didn't want anyone to know my ribs popped, like it's. During the match? Uh, during the match with the Polish guy, Eradik Turc, European champion. He tried to follow me. And I turned out of it, popped my rib, and I got his heel. And I'm like, my rib is, is unsat. It's, it's, it's not, it's not up, it's not up to standards, you know?

• 1:15:02Dean Lister?

  So I'm like, it hurts right now and I'm warm, right? So I sat down, I waited for everyone to leave the arena, so they wouldn't see me like limping home to the hotel. So I didn't want to see, you know, appear strong when you're weak, appear weak when you're strong. So I was, let's say, weak at that moment. I don't want people to see that. So I got, kind of walked real slow back to hotel and this guy's downstairs. Hey, hey Dean, you're, you're, you're facing Rodolfo Vieira tomorrow. I'm like, yeah. Do you know how good that guy is? And I'm like, yeah, I heard. No, do you actually understand what you're getting yourself into? I'm like, okay, just stop it, man. Just get the fuck, get away from me, you know? And, uh, I'm like, trying to get in my head. Kind of motivated me, actually. I like, I like feeling like, oh, do you think I'm gonna lose? You like to be an underdog, man. Next day I showed up. Oh, and I saw Rodolfo Vieira, he was competing with, with spandex on. I'm like, oh yeah.

• 1:15:46Dean Lister?

  Because it's harder to slip out of leg locks. Next day, no shirt and no spandex. Someone told him something, so I faced him and. Yeah, he's, you know, he's like the future of the sport. Awesome, uh, great sport as well. But I got him in about, I think, uh, four minutes. I got his heel in the four eleven. Which no one was doing at that moment. So my fifty fifty and four eleven was two of my nine lives of innovation. That after I, I did that, people, I, I started doing it. Yeah, yeah, of course. But when I did it, no one understood what was going on. So it was like a, it was like a secret weapon. Just total confusion, yeah. And then Joao Cease also, he beat Zhongji. I took him out and mounted him. So beat someone like Zhongji. Joao Cease is also super high level.

• 1:16:28Dean Lister?

  And, uh, but see, mental, mental games, um, I'm older, I'm ten years older than Joao, so I went, uh. Now, at the time, I speak good Portuguese. So, um, and in his corner was Leo Zinho Vieira. And Leo knows, like, he knows about footlock guys, so. So I'm like, uh, and I heard that Joao has good footlocks and whatever. So I'm, I'm kind of talking like to him. I'm like, hey. I'm saying my foot's right here, come on. And I'm wiggling in my feet, like in his armpit, like go for it. And he's like, I don't think so, man. And then Lee was like, no, no.

• 1:17:02Dean Lister?

  I can see before the match, like, he's not, he's not cocky, but I can see he has a little pride. I can just tell. He's younger than me, so I'm like, play that, that game. I'm like, let him play on my game, you know? He has good foot locks, but that's my forte, let's say. So eventually I'm like, hey, man, it's right here. I heard you have good foot locks. I was too much. He went for my foot and then.

• 1:17:24Jocko Willink?

  So you goaded him into doing that?

• 1:17:26Dean Lister?

  It was psyops, right?

• 1:17:29Dean Lister?

  See, the thing is like, right, when you get older, you gotta use those little tricks, you know, sometimes.

• 1:17:33Jocko Willink?

  Wait, so you did that thing where when they go for your foot, that opens up your.

• 1:17:38Dean Lister?

  It's like punch me, I'll punch you back, but you get the first punch. But I had to be confident I could take a punch, right? Well, I'm somewhat confident that I can resist a leg lock or counter in time and it all worked, you know?

• 1:17:49Jocko Willink?

  It's funny because I'm sitting here laughing at laughing at that, but you do that to me?

• 1:17:52Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:52Jocko Willink?

  And after like.

• 1:17:53Dean Lister?

  You know, you don't, you don't fall for it though.

• 1:17:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but then like I will.

• 1:17:56Dean Lister?

  Yeah, eventually.

• 1:17:57Jocko Willink?

  Like I'll be like, I can get this and I'll just go for it. And then you'll, you'll get, you'll.

• 1:18:01Dean Lister?

  Greed.

• 1:18:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, exactly. I get greed.

• 1:18:03Dean Lister?

  That's Jaco's sin, greed.

• 1:18:06Jocko Willink?

  Went back again in, uh, 2013. For A D C C again.

• 1:18:10Dean Lister?

  Took silver to Jamal. He won that year.

• 1:18:12Jocko Willink?

  He won that year. How did he win?

• 1:18:14Dean Lister?

  I went for, and I talked to referees afterwards. It wasn't their fault. I went for a leg lock and he used that exact moment to sweep me. I did it wrong though. I got greedy that time. He had the arm position. I went for the wrong move. Technically, if the referees knew I was going for leg lock, it's not a sweep. But now he's up, I'm down by points by one point. I haven't been a triangle. And he's really strong. He's flexing his leg. I'm like, I have 30 seconds. I'm like, I haven't been locked in triangle. But his arm was on the opposite side. I'm like, you know what? He's going to muscle this out, win by one point. So I opened up my full guard from the bottom, turned on my stomach, he got my back. So we actually won, uh, four, four.

• 1:18:52Jocko Willink?

  So you were trying to create something?

• 1:18:54Dean Lister?

  Yeah, because otherwise I can mentally be like, you know what? A little thought races through your mind. You know, I, I can, I know I'm gonna lose, but I gotta say, I would have submitted him, like, you know? But I'm gonna lose. The only chance I have, really, unless I have another two minutes, then it's different. So I had to take a chance. It's a one in ten chance and it didn't pay off. Took silver. I was really upset about taking silver, but in the end, Abu Dhabi, silver's not too bad, right?

• 1:19:18Jocko Willink?

  No. Second best in the entire world.

• 1:19:21Dean Lister?

  Three time gold, one time silver.

• 1:19:23Jocko Willink?

  And then you did the absolute that year too. Did, right?

• 1:19:26Dean Lister?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:19:27Jocko Willink?

  And that's one of my favorite matches that you've ever done is against Puchetja, even though you lost.

• 1:19:31Dean Lister?

  Puchetja, it was tied up zero zero for nine minutes and he, he's like 22, I'm 35 and, no, I'm 37 now. And, man, it was, it was just weird because everyone's intimidated, he's a very humble, great guy. But, but people are, he's really strong and athletic, very technical. So I was like, okay, be careful of this. I'm like, be careful, I'm gonna give, I'm gonna give him my leg. You know, I just walk out hopping after him, my leg, and he's like, what the hell? And he grabbed my leg, took me, no, there's no points. He had me in his two submission, I had him in three submission, it was awesome. At the end, I took him down, got mounted, but my foot was stuck, so it didn't count. And he upa, which means shoulder roll in Portuguese, over, that's two points in Abu Dhabi.

• 1:20:11Jocko Willink?

  Wait, upa means, it actually, it actually means shoulder roll? Or is that just, I thought it was just a noise that?

• 1:20:17Dean Lister?

  That's, that's upa.

• 1:20:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:20:20Dean Lister?

  Upa is, is shoulder roll, but if you talk to someone who doesn't do jiu-jitsu, upa doesn't mean shoulder roll, it means, it's a jiu-jitsu term.

• 1:20:26Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:20:27Dean Lister?

  So upa means shoulder roll, yeah.

• 1:20:30Dean Lister?

  Escaped him out. So he did that, and he's the one damn Brazilian who has a wrestler bridge. Like, he bridged up and he took me over and I'm like, god damn, and I know that move from like, when I was 14 years old. But he took me over and I was in my full guard, he's up two zero, and he won like that. So, it was a good match.

• 1:20:45Jocko Willink?

  That's a good match. That's on YouTube, go watch that match. If you wanted to see.

• 1:20:49Dean Lister?

  We were exhausted.

• 1:20:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that, that is, that is just a beast of a match. It's a beast of a match.

• 1:20:54Dean Lister?

  I could not, I'm not saying, couldn't move my shoulders afterwards. And I'm like. This is gonna suck.

• 1:21:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you it's weird cuz you had injuries along the way.

• 1:21:05Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:05Jocko Willink?

  Obviously, but like you had, how many knee surgeries have you had?

• 1:21:08Dean Lister?

  Two.

• 1:21:09Jocko Willink?

  And and but those were when you were pretty young, right?

• 1:21:11Dean Lister?

  Yeah, but as I got older, it's like my shoulder, my bicep, I you were there in the gym when my bicep snapped.

• 1:21:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:17Dean Lister?

  That was terrible.

• 1:21:18Jocko Willink?

  Sparring.

• 1:21:19Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:19Jocko Willink?

  I was there too, by the way.

• 1:21:21Dean Lister?

  What I go, this is done.

• 1:21:22Jocko Willink?

  Undisputed.

• 1:21:23Dean Lister?

  Yeah, undisputed. Yeah, I was the guy was blocking with his elbow. He's trying to knock me out. So I was like, oh, I'll knock you out. Then it was going too hot. I wasn't really warm yet and I hit his elbow with my bicep and snapped. Terrible. I'm like, I didn't know you could snap your bicep, but you can.

• 1:21:37Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you can.

• 1:21:38Dean Lister?

  Confirmed. Yeah.

• 1:21:40Jocko Willink?

  Double confirmed. Double confirmed.

• 1:21:42Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:43Jocko Willink?

  What do you do when you win? Like, when you got an injury? What's what's your philosophy around trying to get it healed? Cuz people get injured during jujitsu, you know?

• 1:21:53Dean Lister?

  It's it's difficult for me because. But I can try to make it as simple as possible. See, jujitsu, boxing, any kind of a confrontational thing, which you are an expert in in the military, but also in jujitsu. I mean, even if it's not. Fun, because you're getting smashed, you're not bored. You're not bored. So so you can't train jujitsu. Me, now I know we're different. I personally don't like looking, well, at myself in the mirror. I don't like that at all, but and with weights, I I get bored personally. I wanna have someone trying to hurt me. I don't wanna get hurt, but that at least I I can be mentally immersed in in the issue.

• 1:22:35Dean Lister?

  Um, so that makes it hard for me. So personally, I I focus on other things like learning languages or traveling or doing seminars, things like that.

• 1:22:44Jocko Willink?

  How many languages do you speak?

• 1:22:46Dean Lister?

  Oh, everyone's, oh, Dean speaks seven languages. No, I I speak three i- in the way that I can make jokes, I can argue, and I can spell. I can write and I can read Portuguese, Spanish and English. French, I can, uh, I can have a conversation, but I'm not smooth. I have a big accent. I couldn't make jokes and I I couldn't effectively argue unless someone sound like Borat. Oh, nice. I could I could do that. Maybe I. I would sound like Croatian was Mirko Kropkops coach for like seven years like survival like I want to go there. How are you like, you know, so nah, three or four or five, depends on your definition. Even German, I can kind of get around a little bit, but it's just on the street asking for directions and stuff like that. It's not good. So three, I guess three, I'll say three.

• 1:23:31Dean Lister?

  Three solid. Let's talk some jiu jitsu philosophies. Jiu jitsu. Gi or no gi? That's like saying, um, what do you like doing better? Uh, long distance running versus sprinting or uh, judo versus wrestling. Uh, kickboxing or boxing, there's different sports, they're related, they're similar. There's a lot of mechanical similarities. So oki is better for, uh, it does help you to get a tighter style. But if you're wasting, not wasting, let's say, yeah, yeah. If you're gonna be doing no gi, and I know, I know some, I don't know if anyone watching knows, knows the significance of this. A wrestler knows right away, this is wrong. This is a, this is the gable grip, this is the S grip, they're fine. This is the BS grip, doesn't work.

• 1:24:16Dean Lister?

  A lot of world champions that only train, they're all over sleeve and belt. They grab like this because they're taught to rely upon the uniform. So if you rely upon the uniform and you don't have the uniform now, eighty percent of your tools are gone. So I think it's good to do both. It's normal to prefer one over the other. But don't discount, uh, no gi is more technical and faster in the transitions, absolutely. And the fact that you, you can slip out of something easier means I had to uh, transition to the next move faster. But gi has more options. I, I have many chokes I can do. I can grab my own belt, wrap it around your wrist. You can't do that without gi. Uh, so that's only, so. Some people say, some people say.

• 1:25:00Jocko Willink?

  Gi is more technical, but I don't believe that it's more technical. There might be, I guess, no, I was gonna say maybe there's more techniques, but there's not. There's, it's equal. I just think they're equal.

• 1:25:12Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:12Jocko Willink?

  And they're equal and technical because to hold someone down with the gi is a lot easier. You get someone across side with the gi, like you're gonna hold them down. You get across side with someone with no gi, it's a lot harder to hold them down because there's nothing to hold on to.

• 1:25:25Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:25Jocko Willink?

  And so, so it makes it harder. That's why I think no gi makes your offense better. Gi makes your defense better because it's harder to slip out of things.

• 1:25:35Dean Lister?

  If you're in a submission with gi, it's hard to slip out of the, you know, you can get lucky. It's really hard. You're not really gonna slip out of things. Also, if you're training with wrestling shoes, it's different. If you, hey, with the fatigues, it's different.

• 1:25:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:46Dean Lister?

  Training with the Marines, with the team guys, or I trained the police, whatever, down in Brazil as well. I mean, they trained like how they are on duty, you know?

• 1:25:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:56Dean Lister?

  So having someone with a, you know, fatigues on, they still call them fatigues? I don't know.

• 1:26:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I usually just call them camis.

• 1:26:03Dean Lister?

  Camis. That's, that's cute.

• 1:26:05Jocko Willink?

  Sorry dude, that's what I called them.

• 1:26:07Dean Lister?

  Camis. Get your camis on, yeah.

• 1:26:10Jocko Willink?

  BDUs.

• 1:26:11Dean Lister?

  I never, there we go, yeah.

• 1:26:12Jocko Willink?

  ACUs, BDUs. Everyone, I don't know, we are, everyone I know, we just call them camis.

• 1:26:16Dean Lister?

  Fatigues.

• 1:26:18Jocko Willink?

  Maybe it's cute to you. Pole guard. Should a human being pole guard?

• 1:26:23Dean Lister?

  In a fight, no. Oh, unless it's a control like UFC I pole guard in one, but that's because there's one person right there. And their forte is striking. And to the end of my, towards the end of my career, people wouldn't fall for that. They'd just get, get the hell away from me. But I've won a few fights where even one, the guy was across side on top. And he could have just got away from me, but he proceeded to attack me and then I reversed and, and triangle arm off. It was, uh, James Lee is my friend now, uh, very tough guy, but you know, he engaged my strength. Uh, so you could, same thing like croc up. Probably the most notorious high kick in history of MMA, you know, he broke a lot of grounds with that. Average guy, you wouldn't say just throw left high kick to the head. Yeah, it's not gonna work that well.

• 1:27:07Dean Lister?

  But it works, you do it really well. I wouldn't say it's a good strategy in a fight, but it's good to do because you get to a situation where you're familiar, you have hold, you have your legs and your arms engaging the opponent. And you can work from there, but you have to have a good guard. You can't just, oh, I'm gonna sit on the bottom and be good. Oh, but across my feet and I'm fine. No, you get beat up in a fight.

• 1:27:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:26Dean Lister?

  So if you're, if you're good there, you can do it. It's not a generally thing I would recommend, though.

• 1:27:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You know, it's, I was just remembering that when you fought Nate Markort in the UFC. That was what bummed me out about that is-

• 1:27:40Dean Lister?

  I can hear Jackson going, "Do not throw a punch!" So I pull guard and he's just like, "Stick to the game plan."

• 1:27:45Jocko Willink?

  So Greg Jackson, who is a really smart strategist-

• 1:27:49Dean Lister?

  Really smart.

• 1:27:50Jocko Willink?

  And I'm kinda like, you know, your strategist. So it was like, my strategy, I'm supposed to be cornering you and telling you what to do strategy-wise. And Greg Jackson is on the other side telling Nate what to do strategy-wise. And after the fight, I was, even during the, well, that's what pissed me off was that during the fight, I didn't recognize quickly enough what was happening. And what was happening was Nate Markort was just not moving. So all he was doing was waiting for the referee's stand-up.

• 1:28:17Dean Lister?

  Yeah, and it came.

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  Expose nothing, cuz you know Nate was better on the feet.

• 1:28:21Dean Lister?

  He's also a black belt in jiu-jitsu.

• 1:28:23Jocko Willink?

  He's also in jiu-jitsu, but he didn't wanna play around. There's no, why take the chance, right? The chance is, there's a, there's a, a much higher percentage of him getting submitted than it is of him getting knocked out by you.

• 1:28:34Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:35Jocko Willink?

  So he would just literally hold Dean and wait. And I got strategically beat by Greg Jackson. Now, I love Greg Jackson. I think he's an awesome guy and I've hung out with him. He's a super guy. And like, it bummed me out that he tactically, he strategically beat me um, with that plan, which was, hey, we're just gonna hold and we're gonna wait for the referee's stand-up. And it was something that we didn't train for.

• 1:28:59Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:59Jocko Willink?

  We didn't train for it until later. Then we started training for like, okay. The, the other thing we had to start training for is someone that runs away from you. Right? Cuz a lot of guys- They would, they would just try and get away from you. That's all they wanted.

• 1:29:10Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:10Jocko Willink?

  And, and so that's, that's very difficult to contend with.

• 1:29:13Dean Lister?

  I wish that we could like have a fight like in an elevator.

• 1:29:18Dean Lister?

  The elevator fighting championships, the Lister champion. You can't get away from me.

• 1:29:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:23Dean Lister?

  Or like in a movie theater, like I'm sitting next to you, ready, go.

• 1:29:28Dean Lister?

  That's a, that's a, you know, I like that range is my style, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:29:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, you were, you were meant for that. You were meant for that. Do you, what do you think about when you see all the foot locks that's become such a huge focus of the game um right now?

• 1:29:45Dean Lister?

  I'm kind of like, I told you so. Because I, I, you know, you were in the middle of this.

• 1:29:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 1:29:50Dean Lister?

  I had about 10 years of, yeah, you're doing good with that somehow, but we don't, you know, that's wrong.

• 1:29:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:56Dean Lister?

  And oh, by the way, Jerry Costa.

• 1:29:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:58Dean Lister?

  Kid Pilegro.

• 1:29:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:59Dean Lister?

  He actually told me when I was boo, he goes, you know, Dean, this foot locks, it's kind of like tacky.

• 1:30:06Dean Lister?

  And when I won, he was there in Brazil when I won, he walked, he went in English, he's Brazilian, but he, he was Lister. Thank God you didn't listen to me and my bullshit. It's awesome. He's a great guy.

• 1:30:16Jocko Willink?

  He is, he's awesome.

• 1:30:17Dean Lister?

  But he, at the time, it was just, that was the way. And yeah, I do use some cliches, but some cliches make sense. Uh, when you know the rules, now you can break the rules.

• 1:30:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:28Dean Lister?

  If you don't know the rules, hmm, so I knew the rules and you can get away doing that because no one else is doing that. And sometimes I break rules because I, I don't want to react in a way my opponent will predict so easily. So I'll do something wrong because it's unexpected. I'll do something that, well, those who don't do jiu-jitsu may not understand this, but I'm in your guard. I'll reach my arm down inside, like I'm a white belt, knowing you'll go for a triangle.

• 1:30:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:54Dean Lister?

  And it's you do, I'm around your guard.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, no, I know.

• 1:30:56Dean Lister?

  I wouldn't tease that to white belt. They'll get caught in triangle. See? So I do things like that just because it's weird and maybe I'm weird too, but yeah, so that's my style. But yeah, leg locks, yeah.

• 1:31:06Jocko Willink?

  What do you think about uh some, people talk about the self-defense techniques of jiu-jitsu? And or the lack of self-defense techniques for jiu-jitsu? Now, what I will say is this, I've been in some self-defense classes that you're teaching. And you don't focus it on a lot, but occasionally you'll do a self, and I act, almost every time you teach one of those self-defense classes, I pick something up. I learned something.

• 1:31:31Dean Lister?

  Okay. Well, I, I, it is true. When we were young starting, it was from, born from the UFC. Let's say motivate, it was like, oh, Hoist Gracie, that was the main thing. Hicks and Gracie, you know, Valley Tudo. And back then, at least your coach could fight or has been in fights. And I'm not criticizing anyone. But it's a martial art. Martial being what? War, confrontation. I'm not saying you want to be in, be confrontational or be in fights. But if you can't use jiu jitsu to defend yourself when it counts most. And I don't know, it's, it's not really martial art anymore. So, yeah. Um, on the other hand, if you think that, I've had people tell me this.

• 1:32:16Dean Lister?

  Oh, yeah, Dean, I, I saw you, you're a good fighter in UFC. Oh, but you know, if you try to me, I poke your eyes. And I go, okay. Thanks for letting me know, warning me, because that's kind of scary. I could poke their eyes too. I don't tell them because it's a childish argument. See, if, if you do one class, one time. You know, that's why you have to roll and do it. You know, for boxing, you need someone actually throwing punches at you and learn how to stop those and move away from the punches. Just hitting a bag or brick not hit back, you know? So if anyone here listening is under 25, no one's going to understand what that means. But so having this, putting yourself in hard situations is get, jiu jitsu is all about problem solving. You know, you get to a situation and you learn how to solve the problem.

• 1:32:59Dean Lister?

  You get relaxed and you learn to deal with this. I think that's really important to know how to relax, how to conserve your energy. As you said, knowing when to attack. There's psyops, there's, there's mental tactics. There's, uh, you know, you could tell a lot about a person, uh, how they fight. You can see if they're dirty, if they take shortcuts, if they have a temper. You can see if they're patient. You can see if they're explosive. You can see if they're lackadaisical, uh, lackadaisical. You can see a lot of things about somebody if they're greedy.

• 1:33:28Jocko Willink?

  That's why I'm laughing. Dean, uh, accuses me of being greedy and he's right. I will get greedy with a move and I'll hang on to something that I shouldn't hang on to. And I'll end up in a position that I shouldn't be in. And then Dean will immediately start going greed, greed.

• 1:33:44Dean Lister?

  You know, you know. Well, you know, you can tell a lot about a person by how they fight. And also how they handle defeat and how they handle victory. Um, that's why I don't do it as an outward display, but every time I win against someone, I never run around yelling, I, I, I check on them. And if I was lose, I shake my opponent's hand. Uh, I'm not, there's nothing, I'm not saying anything admirable about that, but, but that's something I always strive to be is someone that's respectful. And you can see, as you said, humility is taught. And the people don't like to be humbled. They're probably not going to last very long doing a martial art, especially jiu jitsu, because it's such a close and personal, like you got owned.

• 1:34:25Jocko Willink?

  Like that arm, that arm belongs to Jaco now. There's no debate, there's no debate. You just got tapped out.

• 1:34:31Dean Lister?

  You can't lie in a fight.

• 1:34:32Jocko Willink?

  You just got tapped out. Now with some other martial arts, it's like, well, you know, if this was a real fight, I would have done this or that. Or if I would have punched him harder, I would have done something else, I would have done something different. It's like, in jiu jitsu, you just got, you got put in a position where this dude could have ripped your shoulder apart.

• 1:34:47Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:48Jocko Willink?

  Or put you to sleep and killed you. So, so there's, there's truth in jiu jitsu and that's why it's so humbling.

• 1:34:55Dean Lister?

  So I said, you could tell a lot by how someone is, uh, okay. If we have a sport like golf or sprinting, okay, these, these are all sports and they're good, but I don't know. How someone swings a golf club, I can't tell too much about their personality, but if someone takes a punch and they look right back at you and they punch you back, yeah, that person's a, there's something about that guy that's different than the average guy who turns away and runs away. Okay. Um, if someone tries to arm lock me and I relax and I escape, I time it correctly. Okay, there's timing, there's technique, of course, makes some kind of sense.

• 1:35:30Dean Lister?

  I don't know. Uh, back to the self-defense aspect.

• 1:35:35Dean Lister?

  Yeah, I think, I think you should be prepared for a worst case scenario. And actually, for some weird reason, now that I can fight, I don't, no one even messes with me. I, I don't, I don't go, I'm not going around trying to pick, pick fights with anyone, but for some reason, like no one even tries to fight me right now.

• 1:35:52Jocko Willink?

  I wonder why.

• 1:35:53Dean Lister?

  I'm not, but you know, I've noticed.

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  You look like a mutant, bro.

• 1:35:58Dean Lister?

  You know, you know, in Japan, Russia, Brazil, whatever, Croatia, any, any country you can imagine I've been to, for some reason.

• 1:36:07Dean Lister?

  And I'm I'm by far like not a um criminal or something like that, but for some reason you get you get a lot of these gangster mafia type guys that are fans and you end up hanging out with these guys and it happened in Russia. I'm not glorifying anything, but these guys you wouldn't even know they're gangsters. These guys are powerful. These are powerful guys you don't want anger. And also Jaco himself Navy. Hey Jaco, what do you do? I'm an investor. Um Jaco, were you in the Navy? Yes, I was in the Navy. Jaco, what did you do in the Navy? Well, I okay, I was a SEAL.

• 1:36:40Dean Lister?

  Whereas maybe a nineteen year old kid who wants to be a SEAL will be like, I'm gonna be, you know, he's gonna say it. And a young fighter or uh uh someone who wants to be a fighter is gonna be like, yeah, US, I'm a US fighter. You get a really established fighter is not not gonna usually say I'm a fighter. I I break people's arms and not it's not used that way. Also, some of the richest people I know, you wouldn't know the rich. Cause but I I've met girls, I dated girls who they they have one nice dress. They're poor as hell, but they look they look like they're rich when they're going out. They're trying really hard to look rich, right? So it's interesting how how when when you understand things more, it's like, I don't think you have to. It sounds corny. Prove it. I think you just you just you you have a higher understanding about that, the the confrontational

• 1:37:24Dean Lister?

  uh uh of human beings.

• 1:37:26Jocko Willink?

  I've talked about how when you roll with someone you've never rolled with before, you meet someone. And as soon as you make contact with them, as soon as you clinch up with them, you can tell what's up. You can you can kind of tell like, okay, this is gonna be, this guy knows what he's doing. This this person doesn't really know whether they're okay or wait a second. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I'm gonna find out pretty quickly. Remember Sasha? Dude.

• 1:37:48Dean Lister?

  His aura was strong.

• 1:37:50Jocko Willink?

  Dude, his aura was way strong. He looked like Shrek.

• 1:37:53Dean Lister?

  Funny, but yeah, no, he's a creationist. Bro, if if you got Shrek and like took away his green skin, but like a pale polar bear white skin on him, yeah, he looks like a Shrek. And he actually, he wouldn't mind me saying this, because no one really knows his full name. Um he was Quo Hop's main training partner and Uh, he, he didn't speak English. He speaks Spanish. He served some prison time in Spain for uh, a felony, let's say, okay. And so we were talking to the Spanish the whole time and he came to San Diego, that's how you met him. And that guy, you know, the first time I trained with him at Cro Cop's gym, Cro Cop has a gym under his house, his full gym with a cage.

• 1:38:34Jocko Willink?

  What do you think Sasha weighs?

• 1:38:35Dean Lister?

  Uh, two, two thirty probably.

• 1:38:37Jocko Willink?

  Dude, he's gotta weigh more than that. His head and neck are the size of this table, bro.

• 1:38:41Dean Lister?

  But he's five foot nine, ten, you know, and he has really good hands. That guy's hardcore. He was the-

• 1:38:45Jocko Willink?

  What's up with his head and his neck, dude? Come on.

• 1:38:48Dean Lister?

  He's just, he's just like, yeah, I know. He's a great guy. Uh, I don't think he and Cro Cop are in touch anymore. I'm not really, for some reason, me and Cro Cop don't, don't talk so much anymore. But, uh, he was the resident grappling guy slash coach training partner. So I arrive and I'm like, I'm kinda like the new guy, like, and he's, he looks at me and there was that little bit of like, okay, this is the new guy.

• 1:39:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:10Dean Lister?

  And we trained and he got me in, in, well, an arm lock behind the head and I'm like, I'm not tapping this. And I got out and I got him and I'm like, I should have tapped that because it was the first time, you know, I'm not gonna, I don't wanna, and he was probably doing the same thing. Ended up being real good friends. He's a better wrestler than me and a better boxer than me and he has good submissions, but my-

• 1:39:31Jocko Willink?

  And his head.

• 1:39:33Dean Lister?

  Yeah, yeah. You, you hit, as part of me, you hit his head, it can actually hurt your hand. It can actually. And he'll just take, he won't even blink his eye. He's a really confident guy. He's solid. Yeah. So you get some freaks like that, like a bowling ball of fury.

• 1:39:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What should beginners focus on in jiu jitsu?

• 1:39:54Dean Lister?

  Finding a, a good coach is imperative because you need some kind of direction. And in the end, or hopefully sooner than later, you start developing your own way, even if it's a little, a little variation of what your coach is saying. Uh, maybe it doesn't have to be some champion, someone you connect with, you can hear, not listen, you can hear what they're saying. Because someone, I might, I might say something. And André Grimal would say the same thing and a slight variation. It will make sense, maybe he says over me and vice versa. I've had people both ways tell me, you know, something that you will say made more sense or something that someone else said the same exact thing, but said in a different way. So finding a coach is really important.

• 1:40:40Dean Lister?

  Uh, also, well, humility will be taught by itself.

• 1:40:43Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:40:44Dean Lister?

  Um, so that goes without saying.

• 1:40:46Jocko Willink?

  I always tell people, relax.

• 1:40:47Dean Lister?

  There we go. Yeah, of course. Relax, of course. But that's difficult for a beginner because you don't, you don't want to relax. You want to win.

• 1:40:54Jocko Willink?

  That's why I try and make it so evident that that's the most important thing you should do. You know, a lot of people also ask me like, what schools, you know, I, I live in Cleveland. I live in Toledo. What school should I go to? And I think one thing that people should realize these days, the days of like, hey, there's some shyster that's running around saying he's a black belt. There's not a lot of those guys left anymore because the internet has just overtaken them and they just get called out. So, so I think if you go to a, a place that has a website that lists the instructors' names, the instructors maybe show some of their competitive history. They show their lineage of where they got their black belt from.

• 1:41:37Dean Lister?

  It's all good.

• 1:41:38Jocko Willink?

  You can't put that stuff on the internet. You can't say, I got my, my black belt from Hoiler Gracie and, and not, if you didn't, and expect to have, like, expect to get away with that. So.

• 1:41:50Dean Lister?

  Do you know who Rafael Torre was? He was the key.

• 1:41:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:52Dean Lister?

  So.

• 1:41:53Jocko Willink?

  That's back in the day.

• 1:41:54Dean Lister?

  They were like, they were like, yeah, um, so he said, I can you drive me out to the forest? I have a committee to go to. And they drove him out there and he got out with all the stuff and went to the forest and came back like three hours later with like a trophy.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  It was like the next day.

• 1:42:07Dean Lister?

  Yeah. Or next and they're like, yeah, I won that.

• 1:42:10Jocko Willink?

  Wait, was Joe Rogan?

• 1:42:11Dean Lister?

  Was it Joe Rogan or Eddie Bravo?

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  Eddie Bravo.

• 1:42:12Dean Lister?

  And he's like, yeah, I beat 10 guys. I'm paraphrasing by the way. That guy was, yeah, and he, he had fixed fights. It's like he fought a student. It was work. It was a work. This is about 15 years ago. Of course, he's in prison now.

• 1:42:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So that guy, this is an example of what it used to be like. A guy could show up somewhere.

• 1:42:30Dean Lister?

  Put a black belt on.

• 1:42:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, put a black belt on and be like, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a black belt. I got my black belt in Brazil. I trained down there for four years. And I'm a black belt and I won this and I won that. He didn't win anything and he was just a liar. But these days, I'm telling you, if you find a, if you find a place online, it lists the instructors. The instructors' names are there. You can Google the instructors' names. You can see if they've, every instructor has competed at some point, right? I mean, if someone's, I would say 95% of instructors have done some competition at some point. There may be a few very small percentage of instructors that have never competed.

• 1:43:08Jocko Willink?

  I don't even know if that's possible. If you, if you Google your instructor, if your instructor has never competed, I would definitely be suspect.

• 1:43:17Dean Lister?

  Possible, but yeah.

• 1:43:18Jocko Willink?

  It's not likely.

• 1:43:19Dean Lister?

  Competition, like I said, you can see how someone is and the truth, as you would say. One piece of advice I will give to people is, okay, I'm in Cleveland, whatever. Or there's eight schools, whatever, five.

• 1:43:32Dean Lister?

  Go to each school. Don't say you live there. Say I'm visiting from, yeah, it's, you're lying, but it's a white lie. Yeah, it's okay. God will forgive you. You say, hey, listen, I'm, I'm a, I'm a white belt. I'm from Florida. I'm just passing through. I have no experience. So you're not getting the sales pitch. You know, the instructor's representative, not his real self, is trying to impress you. So you sign a contract. Signing a contract is okay, but if you believe in the, in the instructor, you'd like what he's saying, you like the environment. Because then as a visitor, you're gonna see like this, this person not trying to sell me something. You can see how they actually are. And if you hear what they're saying, it's making sense to you and you, you vibe with the energy or let's say the style

• 1:44:10Dean Lister?

  or the personality of the, of the instructor, go to all five gyms in this and pay the day fee, 20, 30 bucks and just try it and then come back. Which, which one did you like best? And then try it out. And yes, Jesus is awesome because also you're not getting hit in the head.

• 1:44:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:26Dean Lister?

  You know, I love boxing. Boxing, it's awesome. I've done it at a high level. I've fought Volch, I've sparred Bojowski, I've sparred Kokop, I've sparred Jerome Le Banner, who's also one of the best in history from France. That's why I lived in France for one month. That's how I learned some French. You, you, uh.

• 1:44:44Dean Lister?

  You do get hit, you get hurt, and you only have one brain. And it's not wrong, it's not bad. It's good to know everything, a little bit of something. But you can actually spar and jiu-jitsu without getting. You can spar every day, basically, unless you're injured. Yeah, so that you the damage, if you do get unfortunate, like any sport is distributed around your body. Whereas in boxing. It's mostly your brain, so. It's okay, it's good to do all this stuff. I mean, I like it all. Uh, also grappling and assault defense scenario, I mean. Even if it's more than one person. The fact that someone cannot easily put me on the ground, if two guys grab me. Actually, like a average guys, I could actually probably just win the fight, but. With punches, but they're not gonna take me down that easy.

• 1:45:27Dean Lister?

  Okay, if someone grabs me from the side, I I can I could throw them, I could escape and I could leave. Right, that's something you said, what made a lot of sense. If I decide I don't wanna fight and you can't restrain me, I could leave.

• 1:45:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:39Dean Lister?

  And I have, and nowadays with all the lawsuits and stuff like that, I mean. Just making a fist. Is ammunition for a lawyer, that's that's a sign, okay? Matter of fact, if you hit someone with an open palm, it's not. In many jurisdictions, it's not the same. If you restrain someone, if you had to. And I and I I call this a seminar, I I I say this is a drunk uncle technique. Because. If you're at a wedding. And your uncle's had too much drink and every every family has one of these uncles usually, so like I I understand what you're saying. But you have to stop him, he's doing something that's really, let's say, not not cool. He's hurting someone. You could hold him without hurting him. You can't do that with boxing.

• 1:46:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:18Dean Lister?

  Boxing is awesome, but you're gonna hurt someone, or maybe not. Uh, and I I know people who have hit people in fights. The guy falls, hits his head and dies. I I know people and they're in trouble and imagine you're conscious. Uh, how do you feel about that, right?

• 1:46:34Jocko Willink?

  Those are big cases in San Diego. The surf kid surfer kids, uh, they knocked some kid out.

• 1:46:41Dean Lister?

  I heard about this.

• 1:46:42Jocko Willink?

  And the guy just not knocked him out, it's exactly that, knocked him and punched him in the head, fell down, hit his head in the crib, died. And and the dude, you know, went to prison, that's that's whatever manslaughter or murder. So whereas if he would have just done a double leg and choked the dude out, which is more kind of more humiliating, I think in a way.

• 1:47:00Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:02Jocko Willink?

  It's a.

• 1:47:03Dean Lister?

  Where am I?

• 1:47:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:05Dean Lister?

  I'm on the beach somewhere.

• 1:47:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That's, that's a good way to do it. Uh, so you find a good school. I always think that proximity is important too.

• 1:47:12Dean Lister?

  Of course.

• 1:47:13Jocko Willink?

  You know, get something close to your, if you pick a school that's an hour away, you're not going to go as often.

• 1:47:18Dean Lister?

  Unless you're Jocko.

• 1:47:19Jocko Willink?

  Your time. Yeah. Well, I always, you know, we always picked schools that were.

• 1:47:24Dean Lister?

  Then there were like two, there were two in San Diego County.

• 1:47:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:27Dean Lister?

  Now there's like eighty or something.

• 1:47:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a ton, ton in San Diego. They're all over the place though. There's jujitsu schools everywhere. You know, I think we've done a pretty good job of being apolitical.

• 1:47:37Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:38Jocko Willink?

  At our gym.

• 1:47:38Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:39Jocko Willink?

  Of just, look, man, guess what? We love jujitsu. We love to train jujitsu. We love to teach jujitsu. We love to roll jujitsu. If you fall into any of those categories, come and train, come and get it. And we don't, you know, that's just kind of our attitude.

• 1:47:55Dean Lister?

  Here's a quick, quick story. Jocko, you would appreciate it. And I'm not going to say his name because, you know, uh, been training here for a few years. Nice, nice guy. Actually came to me and said, hey, Dean, um, I want you to know, I really like training with you. You're my coach. Um, but I was, I was invited by Andre Gavon for two months to come train with him for free. And you know, said, okay, if I, and I'm like, yeah, man, it, first of all, most men wouldn't ask me that. They would just go and do it. The fact you asked me, my, he's a friend of mine. I'm like, and he, he was like, he was very surprised. He thought I was going to be mad or something. Um, but if he, if he actually went and didn't say anything, it would be a little awkward, which has happened to us in the past. Like some, someone does something weird and, um, it's a little bit, let's say not polite or not correct.

• 1:48:40Dean Lister?

  But that was, would that be taking ownership of the problem in his mind? He actually told me upfront or asked me and I was like, yeah, right on. It was good. And I, I wasn't lying either. It wasn't me being like fake jealous. I was like, hey, he's a friend. He's awesome. He's a champion. Go. I said, I don't want to lose you as a student and a friend. I want you to come back. He's like, I'm coming back for sure. And so, yeah, we're not political at all.

• 1:49:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I always found that just like it's capitalistic system, in my opinion.

• 1:49:06Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:06Jocko Willink?

  It's like, go train where you're going to get the best training.

• 1:49:09Dean Lister?

  Evil capitalism.

• 1:49:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, evil capitalism. Like, oh, you, you, you, it's not.

• 1:49:16Jocko Willink?

  You train where you get the best training. And now there's a level of loyalty, right? I mean, you don't just bail on people that you've trained with for a long time. And there's a level of loyalty and that that's not like some level that you're holding a gun to someone's head. It's like, man, you're been training with someone for a long time. You keep training with them and you you have a relationship with them, you know? And you don't just throw that out the window because you think someone else is going to teach you a different move or something. It's not you. That's not what I'm talking about. But it is a capitalistic system. So you go train where you're going to get good training and and that's the way I that's the way I feel about it.

• 1:49:50Dean Lister?

  Yeah, and I think if you're somewhat confident in your ability, let's say, the environment you create that you're a part of. It's not so much a threat for someone to go train someone else.

• 1:49:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's that's why I'm like, cool. Yeah, go like it's fine because we know what we do here and other gyms. It's like, yeah, right on. Let's let's let's train jujitsu is my overall philosophy of all this stuff.

• 1:50:14Dean Lister?

  I had a female friend. We're a pretty girl and we're about the same age. I mean, she was one year old than me and her first boyfriend, I knew him to, I wasn't real close to him. He was very jealous and she I'm going to go out with my girlfriends. You can she would do a lot of girlfriends and he'd be mad and they'd make up, they'd get in fights. They broke up eventually a few years later. She actually dated a guy and he was he was a cop, but he was like 28. So she was 22, 28 year old guy, a little more mature than the guys. And she tried to pull the business with this guy. She said, I'm going to go out with my girlfriends. He went, OK, sure. Have a good time. And she's OK. She's trying to play this game with him actually. So it was it was equal back and forth game with previous previous relationship. And I know inside information that she was playing. And he was it was a game, child's game.

• 1:50:59Dean Lister?

  And she got ready and about to leave and the guy said, hey, listen, you know, I like you. I like spending time with you, but I'm just saying I I have my own expectations. And, you know, I don't really want to be with a girl who goes out all the time with her girlfriends. I mean, have a good time. Go have a good time. She's like, wait, no, I don't want to go out. And she didn't go out. So it's funny how he actually let her go out and she didn't go out. The guy said, no, I don't want you going out. She went out.

• 1:51:25Jocko Willink?

  Of course.

• 1:51:26Dean Lister?

  And I'm not saying how to manipulate or, but that's, that's some psychology there.

• 1:51:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:31Dean Lister?

  Would there be a dichotomy there by chance? A dichotomy? I don't know. I just felt, I felt like saying that word one time today. I don't know why.

• 1:51:38Jocko Willink?

  You had to say dichotomy. I know. I say dichotomy a little too much.

• 1:51:42Dean Lister?

  But, but there you go. He asked me and I said, by the way, I wasn't playing again with him. He wasn't playing again. It was actually sincere. I said, right on, man. Have a good time and do it. It's a great training partner, great, great camp. And I, I, I could see in his eyes, he was very happy about the response. So, yeah, I think that's, uh, taking ownership of the situation was awesome. It was good.

• 1:52:00Jocko Willink?

  For sure. Right on. Yeah. Any, I think we've been going two hours, man. Anything else, uh?

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  Back when you were saying when you used to train with Jaco at, at Fabius, and you said he was the kind where if you guys were, would roll out of bounds. And when you come back inbound, what do you think he would want to reset?

• 1:52:21Dean Lister?

  No, no, what I mean is, what I mean is if I have, let's say, uh, ex-person, so, so and so, and, um, I have their arm on the ground. I have a kimono halfway locked up. We roll out of bounds and okay, let go of it. Average person wants to start where you don't have the kimono at all. Jaco's like, you had two arms on my, on my arm. And, uh, I'm like, well, I know, I'm like, no, it's okay. But no. I, I had my arm on the ground. You had two arms. And I'm like, oh, god damn it. And we'll argue to have the worst situation. Most guys want to cheat kinda.

• 1:52:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. They, yeah, exactly. So I was wondering, was Jaco that good? Cause if you're super competitive in training, you'll pull that kind of stuff like.

• 1:53:02Dean Lister?

  Jaco now will pull, not, he won't cheat like that, but Jaco's a little more stingy, selfish, greedy.

• 1:53:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't think I ever had that experience where you'd wanna stick or like if you'd if you'd be in an inferior position. We go out of bounds, you go against the cage or something, we restart and then you wanna start like even Steven. I've never had that, but the thing is people do that all the time, like I said. So I was wondering, oh, maybe Jaco was like that.

• 1:53:26Jocko Willink?

  Someone did it to me the other day and and I was I was like, oh, okay.

• 1:53:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:31Jocko Willink?

  I was like, you know, I like, we got close to the wall, no, we got close to another people that were rolling and I was in like a good position. I think I was actually across side and if I get cross on you, you know, you know, you're in trouble.

• 1:53:42Dean Lister?

  It's gonna suck, yeah.

• 1:53:43Jocko Willink?

  And so and so we, you know, got a little close to these other people and and you know, like their foot hit hit him or something. So we like, we get move and then he like kneels down.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:53:55Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, okay.

• 1:53:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but here's the thing, okay, so here's the thing, let's say someone does that to you, what's the rule in your mind? I'm sure this.

• 1:54:01Dean Lister?

  You know, you got, you know, you're actually mentally in their head now.

• 1:54:05Speaker 01

  Are you allowed to say, hey, no, I I had the.

• 1:54:08Jocko Willink?

  You can say that.

• 1:54:09Dean Lister?

  But it's more cool to be like.

• 1:54:11Jocko Willink?

  Equivalent.

• 1:54:11Dean Lister?

  They need they need to.

• 1:54:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's the equivalent of trying to of trying to be like, no, you didn't have my arm all the way there.

• 1:54:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you want to start that's cool.

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:19Jocko Willink?

  That's fine.

• 1:54:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:19Jocko Willink?

  We'll do it.

• 1:54:20Dean Lister?

  Funny thing.

• 1:54:21Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, the stuff just escalated.

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  So it's only mental, it's all mental notes, you can't say it.

• 1:54:27Dean Lister?

  I don't know, I don't know how many, you know, these themes I have like, like I I had this Venezuela, I'm like, that's a goal for Venezuela, like I was just, I don't know, it was crazy themes with Jaco and.

• 1:54:38Jocko Willink?

  We have this cop. He has smack talking themes as well as.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:42Jocko Willink?

  Where he'll get, he he does like characters where he'll be a Venezuelan soccer player.

• 1:54:49Dean Lister?

  I'll be a Russian.

• 1:54:50Jocko Willink?

  Officer.

• 1:54:51Dean Lister?

  Russian here, better than American, man. Yeah, I'll talk shit to him with an accent, but here's like, I'll man on Jaco, be like, Jaco, if you want, I'll just I'll just get up and you can, it's okay, it's all right, just let, just tell me, Dean. And Jaco will be like, you know, I did it, I like guys before, if you want me to, yeah, thanks, I'm like, what? I said it and now I'm like, I lost my mouth, bro.

• 1:55:17Dean Lister?

  I'm like, actually, they don't know I'm joking, they don't know I'm joking. Right.

• 1:55:20Jocko Willink?

  One of the best psychological warfare you did on me was like when you acted like you didn't want to train, but you were actually fired up because I had, I'd kind of gotten the best of you the day before.

• 1:55:29Dean Lister?

  I think it was a morning or something.

• 1:55:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was the morning and you're all like, yeah, I don't know if, well, and you're like, and I gotta go soon. And I was like, and in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, cool. I'll just get a quick round, you know, five minute round. No big deal. And then he was all in the game. So he mounted, were you there that day? He mounted me for like thirty minutes and was torturing me.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  Double snow angel?

• 1:55:50Jocko Willink?

  Double snow angel, the whole nine yards.

• 1:55:52Dean Lister?

  Was it water torture?

• 1:55:53Jocko Willink?

  Chinese water torture with the drips of sweat in my ear. That left a mark, that one.

• 1:55:59Dean Lister?

  One, one, one of the-

• 1:56:00Jocko Willink?

  Hey, it's, it's really jacked up though. It's really jacked up that I'm a grown man. Um, I train jujitsu on a regular basis. I work out. I eat good food. And yet you, Dean Lister, can get a position on me that I can't get out of. That's not cool, man. I don't like that.

• 1:56:22Dean Lister?

  No, hey, you have your days too. By the way, you smack talk sometimes too. You, you do the, what, arresting? You do that to me sometimes, but that's a retaliation.

• 1:56:30Jocko Willink?

  It's retaliatory. Yeah. There are, you have, you have three positions you can get on me and, and crush me. I have two.

• 1:56:39Dean Lister?

  Cross side and mount.

• 1:56:40Jocko Willink?

  Yes, and I have two. I can-

• 1:56:41Dean Lister?

  Funny, I used to get the back, I could hold on you. Now I really can't hold it.

• 1:56:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:45Dean Lister?

  Like you can get out of that.

• 1:56:46Jocko Willink?

  But, uh, but I only have two. So I can only talk smack in two positions.

• 1:56:51Dean Lister?

  Oh, and sprawl.

• 1:56:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and sprawl. Yeah. So.

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, interesting, uh, element of your smack talking as well. Sometimes it, it'll transcend the mats. Like you can go home and get like voicemails.

• 1:57:04Dean Lister?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's really interesting. Very, very advanced.

• 1:57:11Dean Lister?

  I'm sure sick of, I, I used to just spam his phone up with this. I send like videos and or pictures or oh man, one of the funniest ones.

• 1:57:20Jocko Willink?

  Saying used to like he didn't do this like two days ago.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  Earlier today.

• 1:57:24Dean Lister?

  One of the funniest ones, and this is just kind of unique. I don't know why I'm like, I'm gonna do something weird today. And I was feeling good though. I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fuck with Choco's head. And I'm like, I gave you a position and I would go twenty two point five. And Choco's like, what the fuck? And I'd take it out of like eighteen and just ran. Choco's like, what the fuck are you doing? I'm like, I'm like, no comment. I'm like, I'm like ninety nine point three and it's.

• 1:57:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:48Dean Lister?

  And it gotta be something in your head like, what's he doing, right?

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:51Dean Lister?

  It's like, yeah.

• 1:57:52Jocko Willink?

  I, I completely turned your, your volume off. It might put you on mute in my head, but that was a.

• 1:58:00Dean Lister?

  What accent is the most annoying for you?

• 1:58:02Jocko Willink?

  Um, man, I don't know. I don't know what.

• 1:58:05Dean Lister?

  It's Russian. It's this way.

• 1:58:07Jocko Willink?

  The Russian's pretty good. The Russians.

• 1:58:09Dean Lister?

  Get the mouth on you, come out to skate.

• 1:58:12Dean Lister?

  Or, or Arnold.

• 1:58:14Jocko Willink?

  Arnold.

• 1:58:14Dean Lister?

  Dammit. Whatever. It's just, yeah, but yeah, he just gets used to it. Yeah. It doesn't, doesn't impact him too much. Psyops.

• 1:58:20Jocko Willink?

  I do. Well, that's my psyops is I try not to show any reaction whatsoever. That's actually funny. Dave Burke was watching.

• 1:58:27Speaker 01

  Good Deal Dave?

• 1:58:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Good Deal Dave was watching Andy and I roll. And he afterwards, he was like, you know, it was cool to watch you roll because first of all, like, it didn't even look like anything I've been training, right? Cause you guys are just getting crazy. And he goes, and I saw, uh, I saw like emotion or, or I saw facial emotions on you. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you normally just look like the same all the time. And then when you're training, or when I was training, I was training with Andy and you always like, get, get some, some, you know, some faces crap and try to move and all that. And, uh, so, yeah, that's one of those things.

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  Thing. That's why, that's why I know that whatever I'm doing is micro successful when you increase your sense of urgency.

• 1:59:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:19Speaker 01

  Cause you're all normal face the whole time.

• 1:59:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:21Speaker 01

  Even normal body.

• 1:59:22Jocko Willink?

  Normal face, normal body. And then occasionally you make me scramble a little bit, make me think about something. Cause you can't, that's the thing, you know, you're getting to a point where I can't just allow some little, some little situation to occur.

• 1:59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:37Jocko Willink?

  Cause I can go to like the, the, uh, The event horizon.

• 1:59:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:43Jocko Willink?

  On a, on a black hole. Like, oh, if I let this.

• 1:59:45Dean Lister?

  It's done.

• 1:59:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If I let this go, it's going, it's gonna go. And, and the better you get, the, the more I gotta pay attention to where that event arises to make sure I don't get myself in a situation where, you know, we got a problem on our hands.

• 2:00:02Dean Lister?

  You wanna hear Echo Charles' story? So, I, uh, yeah, I, I smack talk you a little, not, not the same extreme.

• 2:00:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:09Dean Lister?

  As Jocko, but last time we actually, it wasn't last time, maybe. And I'm like, I didn't let you pass, but I was kinda like laxadaisical, like, oh, he's cross-eyed. And I went, hey, Echo, here's my arm. And usually he's like, there's something wrong, like, uh, it's, there's a trap. Usually there is a trap. I was just talking smack. And Echo's like, oh, okay. I'll take that arm. And I'm like, god damn. He called my bullshit. Cause you know, you know, you know, cause most guys go, there's some, there's some reason he's giving me the arm, this, you know? And you were like, yeah, you're not just gonna give me an arm. Like, there's a trap here. But I knew that, you know why? Cause

• 2:00:46Speaker 01

  you were talking smack the whole time we were rolling, the whole time.

• 2:00:49Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:50Jocko Willink?

  It's funny too. It's funny that for anyone that's listening that thinks that Dean might be this big smack talker, the funny thing is, is that you only talk smack to your friends.

• 2:00:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:00Jocko Willink?

  Actually, a lot of times when you teach moves, you're like, this is a move that you would only do to someone that's a very good friend of yours, or someone that you hate.

• 2:01:09Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:10Jocko Willink?

  Which is really kinda jacked up, if you think about it. Like, oh, he doesn't mind grinding his elbow into my temple.

• 2:01:16Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:16Jocko Willink?

  For three, or my ribs.

• 2:01:18Dean Lister?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:01:18Jocko Willink?

  Because, cause I'm his bro allegedly. So, he, but he won't do it to somebody he doesn't really know that well, cause that wouldn't be, you know, that's not cool.

• 2:01:25Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:25Jocko Willink?

  But if you, if he hated me, or if he was friends with me, then he, then I'm gonna get elbows to the ribs while he's trying to come near me. That's awesome.

• 2:01:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it and really, when you really think about it, your smack talking is never ever like serious.

• 2:01:39Dean Lister?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  And it's never like, I'm the greatest, you saw it's not that. It's all your Arnold impressions or your policeman or you know, all these. It's all like literally jokes, but the jokes are new kind of thing.

• 2:01:50Jocko Willink?

  They're not always that funny when it's occurring to you.

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  That's the genius of it though, you see what I'm saying?

• 2:01:56Jocko Willink?

  I love when I when the tables turn, when the tables turn. If you're if you're talking smack and I can get the tables to turn, oh, man, that's when I have no mercy. It's it's gotta be shocking to some people, either one of us when you and I are trading. And I'm like, oh, this is awesome.

• 2:02:20Dean Lister?

  The two you do it and like in reprisal to me are the the cop, you do that. But in like revenge, like if he gets it like, all right, sir, I'm like, god damn it. You're in my you're in the wrong neighborhood today. I'm like. I'm like, god damn it, I am, you know, I want to get out of this neighborhood. It's not cool. And he also do the, I'll do it to, I'll start, I'll I'll light the fire. And he'll like, I'll be like, oh, that's your guy here. I'll I'll do like a a bad Brazilian accent. And when you got a pop, you're like, oh, oh, you do it back to me. I'm like, god damn it. I don't like, you're right. I don't like how people like, I want to reverse where I was, not where I'm at right now.

• 2:02:55Jocko Willink?

  It's horrible.

• 2:02:56Dean Lister?

  Those are your two, yeah.

• 2:02:58Jocko Willink?

  Right on, man. Well, like I said, we've been going for a little over two hours.

• 2:03:03Jocko Willink?

  So do you know anything else?

• 2:03:05Dean Lister?

  Not just, hey, my bros here and I would have victory in mind, you know, like Jaco said, I mean, there's been some rough times and. There's some some some unique things that I've been through and you know, that's how you know you have a real bros, real team, stick by my side and you know, help me. Actually, you know, if I can help them as well, I know they know that, you know, my dad, he actually, you know. Did not bring him easy, not saying he was a real good dad, but he. You know, I know it's not popular to say this nowadays, but it may be tough. I mean, you know, uh, hey, you got in a fight. Did you fight hard? Did you fight hard? Not, oh, poor you. Oh, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna make a complaint, you know?

• 2:03:47Dean Lister?

  I'm not making some statement. I'm saying my dad was awesome. Oh, Marine. Right? Didn't you say that if you weren't a SEAL, you were a Marine? That we were saying? Someone said that.

• 2:03:55Jocko Willink?

  I'd say there's a really good percentage that if I didn't join the SEAL teams, I would have gone to the Marine Corps. Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty good, pretty good assessment.

• 2:04:04Dean Lister?

  Yeah, somebody, my dad was kind of like how you raise Thor, like, you know, you're gonna do this. And, yeah, you don't force Thor, but you kind of encourage him to do certain things. And that's how my dad was.

• 2:04:14Jocko Willink?

  That's another little torture that you do with Thor, with my son.

• 2:04:18Dean Lister?

  With, uh, I don't know why, I go, um, I don't know why, I just go, um, hey, Thor, what's your favorite food? And he'll go like, oh, steak. I'll be, no!

• 2:04:31Dean Lister?

  I'll throw him down and I'll be like, it's pickings in a blanket. He's like, no, it's not. Yes, it is. Say no. It's all right, it's picking. No, say it. Hey, it's in a blanket. And he'll go, he said it wrong. Say it slow. Sing it. Hey, it's in a blanket. And he'll be like, no, okay, pick it. No, sit around it. And I'll just torture him.

• 2:04:46Jocko Willink?

  Where did you, where does that come from?

• 2:04:47Dean Lister?

  I have no idea. It's just something I thought of first. I don't, I have no idea why. Just, hey, hey, like, I just think of themes, you know? And then, oh, he caught it like the fourth time. He's like, all right, pick it. Oh, you said it correctly. So you earned the privilege of letting me like go over you right now. That's, that's, yeah, old brothers gotta do that, you know? It's just the way it is.

• 2:05:08Jocko Willink?

  That's how it is, man. That's how it is.

• 2:05:09Dean Lister?

  One day the pecking order will be reversed, though.

• 2:05:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know.

• 2:05:12Dean Lister?

  Thor's taller than me now.

• 2:05:13Jocko Willink?

  I know. Well, I saw you, you, you went to take him down, whatever it was.

• 2:05:16Dean Lister?

  Well, the first time he actually defended, I'm like, God, that is defending him the same. I went to double, like, I'm like, dude, he actually said it wrong.

• 2:05:22Jocko Willink?

  Hit you with the hip and I was like, oh, you had to turn up the heat. Awesome, man. Well, uh, Echo, it looks like, I think, uh, Everyone's gonna be training jiu-jitsu now.

• 2:05:31Speaker 01

  Jiu-jitsu.

• 2:05:32Jocko Willink?

  Everyone is gonna get on that path. How can we get on that path, stay on that path, you know?

• 2:05:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:37Jocko Willink?

  Whatever, something like that.

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. So jiu-jitsu, if you do gi, which we recommend, we recommend both gi, no gi, right? Okay, so gis, boom, get an origin gi, get origin gi, 100%. No, you didn't even have to chop around.

• 2:05:52Dean Lister?

  Are there some ones that don't rip at all, or something like that?

• 2:05:54Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know that they rip. I've never seen, witnessed one rip, ever. I've never witnessed one even come close to ripping, or even having the sound of ripping sounds.

• 2:06:03Dean Lister?

  By the way, that's an investment, because Jaco, how many gis have we gone through, like eight?

• 2:06:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, I've ripped someone's gi in a match, by the way.

• 2:06:12Dean Lister?

  Hey, awesome.

• 2:06:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you taught me that. Anyway, get origin gi, that's the, made, all made in America, from the thread, from the cotton, all the way to the actual gi, all made in America, assembled in America.

• 2:06:24Jocko Willink?

  And also, if you're gonna train no gi.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:27Jocko Willink?

  Which we also recommend, right?

• 2:06:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:06:29Jocko Willink?

  Fully. You can get a, a rash guard, which is very good for training jiu-jitsu with, cuz it's compression, and it doesn't get caught up toes, fingers. So you can get that.

• 2:06:42Speaker 01

  Yep, it's true.

• 2:06:43Jocko Willink?

  The, uh, the rash guards. And they're also made 100% in.

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  In America. Yeah, so where we go is, where you go is online, originmaine.com, it's in Maine. Um, and yeah, you can get sweats, shirts, you know, lifestyle stuff, apparel, real cool stuff.

• 2:07:01Jocko Willink?

  Did you say lifestyle stuff?

• 2:07:02Speaker 01

  I said it. I said it.

• 2:07:04Jocko Willink?

  We'll leave that one.

• 2:07:04Speaker 01

  Right, it is lifestyle, Brad. Jiu-jitsu transcends the mats, once you find the way broadly, you see it in all things, you see what I'm saying?

• 2:07:12Jocko Willink?

  I don't think I see the, I don't think I see the way in joggers.

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, if you do jiu-jitsu, it's, it's gonna be your lifestyle, is what I'm saying. You see what I'm saying? You, Dean knows what I'm saying, huh, Dean?

• 2:07:20Dean Lister?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:21Speaker 01

  There you go. Boom. Also, supplements. Okay, Jaco has supplements. Good news, Jaco has supplements.

• 2:07:26Dean Lister?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  You had, uh, surgery on your shoulder. Same day I had surgery, by the way.

• 2:07:30Dean Lister?

  Actually, thanks for, for, he gave me, he'll build some, some gear, not gear.

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  What, joint warfare?

• 2:07:35Dean Lister?

  Nutrition, yes.

• 2:07:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's gonna help. You see, like, mine is way, remember, Kay, I did my other side too, my bicep. This one's healing way faster, like night and day, way crazy faster. Anyway, joint warfare. So, supplements, Jaco has. Thankfully, joint warfare, glucosamine, conjoint, you know grappling, we always kind of knew about that.

• 2:07:55Jocko Willink?

  The krill oil.

• 2:07:56Speaker 01

  Curcumin and then also Jaco super krill oil, which is good for your joints.

• 2:08:01Jocko Willink?

  Lubrication of the joints.

• 2:08:03Speaker 01

  Lubrication, omega threes, whatnot, other good benefits for that too, organs.

• 2:08:07Jocko Willink?

  And you can get discipline.

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:10Jocko Willink?

  Not just regular discipline, but a supplement called discipline, which is good for the pre-mission situation. Dave Burke.

• 2:08:20Speaker 01

  Good deal, Dave.

• 2:08:21Jocko Willink?

  Good deal, Dave. He's on the discipline.

• 2:08:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:25Jocko Willink?

  A lot.

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  So here's the thing about discipline, go, okay, so I'm like, all right, that's not everyday deal for me, discipline.

• 2:08:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:08:32Speaker 01

  So I'm like, oh, no, I'll take it, you know, cool, I'm down. Um, so I'm like, all right, so let me do the three scoops.

• 2:08:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you did.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  I hear, I heard, I heard some good things about the three scoops. So I did the three scoops and, and here's the thing, I wasn't like tired or nothing like that. I wasn't like, oh, I need this specifically, let me just do the three scoops. Good for your.

• 2:08:48Jocko Willink?

  You decided to get on the program a little bit.

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  Do this, gotta do it. So I get in three scoops, boom, I go and here's one thing that like I, I wasn't necessarily trying to pay attention to, am I remembering, am I sharp? I wasn't trying to really paying attention to that. I was just gonna take it and be like, okay, what happens? This is what I noticed, what stuck out to me, my patience. Like, you know what?

• 2:09:10Jocko Willink?

  Patients increased?

• 2:09:11Speaker 01

  In, increase in life. So like.

• 2:09:14Jocko Willink?

  That's, you, you might think that your patience would go down because you're all air.

• 2:09:18Speaker 01

  Agitated, yeah.

• 2:09:19Jocko Willink?

  But you don't get that way.

• 2:09:20Speaker 01

  But it's not, it's, I mean, it's slightly caffeinated, microdose of caffeine, but it's not, no, like maybe, maybe caffeine might make you like that, maybe, but, um, cause it's not that, I don't, I don't know what the mechanism is that made me patient, but I really, you know how like through the day you'll get, you know, it'll get tested, things won't go your way or whatever. I felt like, oh, man, it's all good. Like, man, I'm problem solving.

• 2:09:43Jocko Willink?

  Something in there that's giving you emotional discipline.

• 2:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it's like, it's like making my mind like solve problems rather than like be all, you know, you have little micro reactions inside internally. I mean, I'm not a bad behavior.

• 2:09:59Speaker 01

  It felt like I could manage that like really good. It was like really easy to manage that is what it felt like. The on the three scoops. That's my three scoops. That's what happened. Boom. Either way.

• 2:10:09Jocko Willink?

  This one milk.

• 2:10:11Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm on the.

• 2:10:13Dean Lister?

  Is that Viking or something like?

• 2:10:15Jocko Willink?

  It's actually a word that I literally created. So we were testing to make something. And I was like, hey, man, this has to taste really good and it has to have a great profile nutritionally. And when we when I finally got the sample where I wanted it. And Pete probably like, oh, yeah, it's so good. And they sent me my, I was like, oh, it's so good. And I'm thinking, well, it's not even a protein drink. It's something else. It's milk.

• 2:10:44Speaker 01

  It is, but it isn't.

• 2:10:45Jocko Willink?

  So it's just a word.

• 2:10:47Speaker 01

  So it's not a protein drink, but it happens to have twenty two grams of protein in one.

• 2:10:51Jocko Willink?

  Per scoop.

• 2:10:52Speaker 01

  And taste like like a.

• 2:10:54Dean Lister?

  Has probiotics or something too.

• 2:10:55Speaker 01

  Has probiotics, you know what I'm saying?

• 2:10:57Jocko Willink?

  It does have.

• 2:11:00Jocko Willink?

  And peanut butter chocolate is now also available. It's a big hit in my household.

• 2:11:06Speaker 01

  Well, brown mine too. I'm like, man, it's fine. That's all I had to eat today, by the way. I had I had. Milk, a triple milkshake, milk, put some heavy cream in there too. Not a lot, just a little bit. And then, um. Oh, I know. I had a worry bar too, but that's all I had today. Brian, I'm on the milk train.

• 2:11:26Speaker 01

  It's like it's like a it's a protein supplement and a dessert. So if you're like, hey, I'm lifting, I'm rolling, I'm working out hard. You eat dinner, you can have a dessert. Boom. That's a protein supplement right there.

• 2:11:39Jocko Willink?

  The the peanut butter not. Okay, I I the the mint is delicious, but let's face it, I've been drinking nothing but mint milk. For whatever, how long, ever long it's been released for. So now all of a sudden I've got a little option.

• 2:11:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, the new and it's new. You know how the new exciting.

• 2:11:58Jocko Willink?

  It is new, but it's also just. When you open, well, here's what's here. I'll tell you what, when you open up either one of those two and you smell them, you know, you know, you know, you're. You know, you know, things are about to get real good, real good, either one of them.

• 2:12:11Dean Lister?

  Can you look me up some vanilla next time?

• 2:12:13Jocko Willink?

  We're working vanilla. We're working.

• 2:12:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have some vanilla. You like vanilla for real?

• 2:12:17Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:18Speaker 01

  No kidding. I yeah, I made the vanilla. I gave him to my son. He's two, by the way. And I think he thought it was like a for real milk, like a dessert. And he was like, oh, he's all like crying for it. I have a video. I sent it to Pete for real. It's funny.

• 2:12:29Jocko Willink?

  By the way.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  And then that was vanilla.

• 2:12:31Jocko Willink?

  It's not just gonna be vanilla, though.

• 2:12:34Speaker 01

  Gotta be vanilla something.

• 2:12:35Jocko Willink?

  It's vanilla gorilla.

• 2:12:38Jocko Willink?

  It is for real.

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  Alright, there you go.

• 2:12:40Jocko Willink?

  Pete was like, are you serious? And I was like, yeah, I mean, of course. And he goes, he goes, what do you mean? I said, put a white gorilla on there, the vanilla gorilla. It's coming.

• 2:12:51Dean Lister?

  I would, I would expect so much from Jaco.

• 2:12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 2:12:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so we took a picture of you, Dean, and put, put you on here, your vanilla gorilla.

• 2:12:59Dean Lister?

  That makes sense.

• 2:13:01Jocko Willink?

  Uh, hey, the immersion camp, by the way, that Dean will be at. And I would say come, but if you didn't already sign up, you're not gonna be there because, uh, it's sold out.

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  No kidding, official sold out.

• 2:13:12Jocko Willink?

  Official sold out. We doing it next year. We'll try and get, you know, come next year, we'll try and expand it a little bit, but it's sold out.

• 2:13:19Speaker 01

  And next time, yeah, but those are fun, man. I talk about that with people very often.

• 2:13:27Speaker 01

  Anyway, it's good. Also, good way to support and support yourself and represent. Boom, three things. Boom, boom, boom. Jaco has a store called Jaco Store. So you go to JacoStore.com, right? Makes sense. Anyway, this is where you can get the shirts, the hoodies. It's more rash guards, more Jaco representative, you know, kind of a little bit more direct message on that one, but some good stuff. If you wanna represent, uh, yeah, go there, JacoStore.com.

• 2:13:52Jocko Willink?

  Trucker's hats.

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's good.

• 2:13:55Jocko Willink?

  Whatever. Flex fit hats.

• 2:13:57Speaker 01

  Flex fit.

• 2:13:57Jocko Willink?

  The nouveau.

• 2:13:58Speaker 01

  Snapback.

• 2:13:59Jocko Willink?

  Nouveau chic.

• 2:14:00Speaker 01

  That's what flex, flex fit are? Nouveau chic?

• 2:14:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:06Jocko Willink?

  Hoodies, legit hoodies and lightweight hoodies.

• 2:14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, the lightweight hoodies. Here's the thing, bro. You made me like stutter step on the lightweight hoodie. So like I have them and but they're not like in the pipe yet.

• 2:14:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. Well, good. Keep them out of the pipe.

• 2:14:19Speaker 01

  I want the, nah, they're going in the pipe.

• 2:14:21Jocko Willink?

  There's people that, there's, there is people, there are people.

• 2:14:24Speaker 01

  Lot of support for the lightweight.

• 2:14:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, everyone in Hawaii.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:14:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, everybody. A bunch of people in Florida.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah. Texas sometimes too. But yeah, that's a good way to support and represent, like I said, jocko store dot com. Also, good way to support is to subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already, seems obvious, I know. But on iTunes and Stitcher.

• 2:14:46Jocko Willink?

  Seems real obvious since you've been saying this for a hundred and thirty seven episodes.

• 2:14:50Speaker 01

  And I think I even say it seems obvious every single time, but.

• 2:14:53Jocko Willink?

  Every time you say it seems obvious, that makes it even more obvious.

• 2:14:55Speaker 01

  Which makes, yeah, exactly right, my point even more seems obvious because I say it all the time and that's just kind of how with podcasts, you subscribe to the podcast, that's how everyone knows that.

• 2:15:03Jocko Willink?

  Do you think that you, when you say things a certain way and then you just think that's the best way to say it? You're just gonna keep saying it that way?

• 2:15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the big, don't fix it kind of thing. Even though it kind of is broke because you look at me like it's broke every single time, either way.

• 2:15:14Jocko Willink?

  When you're signing up for podcasts, don't forget that there's also the Warrior Kid podcast.

• 2:15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:19Jocko Willink?

  And you can subscribe to that one too, you can play it for your kids. There's some stories on there, there's some Q and A for Uncle Jake, which, you know, it's good.

• 2:15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like the stories, so okay, those stories, I have to, I shorten it sometimes. But all those stories I tell my daughter before, you know, you have bedtime stories, you know? Now you have a story now.

• 2:15:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:39Speaker 01

  You know how like.

• 2:15:40Jocko Willink?

  Do you make yourself the first person to hear it? Or do you say this happened Uncle Jake?

• 2:15:44Speaker 01

  No, I don't, I actually don't even say Uncle Jake.

• 2:15:47Jocko Willink?

  So how do you?

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  I make up different names, I make up different names, yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:50Jocko Willink?

  You think she's buying that?

• 2:15:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:15:52Jocko Willink?

  She's like, you ripped this off from Jocko, dude. She's like, dad, come on, where are you at?

• 2:15:57Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, she knows. And here's the thing, they're interesting.

• 2:16:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you were running a race, okay.

• 2:16:03Speaker 01

  No, I don't say me, no, I don't say me, I say, look, there was this girl.

• 2:16:07Jocko Willink?

  You owe me money.

• 2:16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, kind of, like a royalties like scenario, but you say someone else was running the race. You say it's a story about somebody and he was the important thing and.

• 2:16:17Jocko Willink?

  Hasn't she heard the Warrior Kid podcast?

• 2:16:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:16:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you, you evil.

• 2:16:21Speaker 01

  Nah.

• 2:16:22Jocko Willink?

  You're holding out on her and you're taking my stories and now you're making of your own. And one day she's gonna listen and be like, oh, she stole the story from you daddy.

• 2:16:29Speaker 01

  What's bad is I didn't realize I was doing that, but technically that is what hap- is what hap- what happened.

• 2:16:34Jocko Willink?

  That's cold blooded.

• 2:16:35Speaker 01

  But either way, if they don't hear those stories on the podcast, for whatever reason.

• 2:16:39Jocko Willink?

  Because you're holding out on them, you're gonna take credit.

• 2:16:41Speaker 01

  Or what have you. You have stories to tell and you know they're gonna come with that lesson. That's what I think is yet another element of value, immense value.

• 2:16:52Jocko Willink?

  We threw some of those stories on the, uh, on the YouTube channel. The Jocko Podcast YouTube panel and there's a Warrior Kid Podcast or a YouTube channel. So go to YouTube, subscribe to that if you want to see Echo's legit videos, which apparently he has some in the hopper that he's gonna be releasing. So we're looking forward to that as well, which should be good.

• 2:17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:15Jocko Willink?

  Get them out there.

• 2:17:15Speaker 01

  I think so. Also on it, okay, on it.com slash Jaco. This is where you can get your kettlebells. I got some heat for calling them artistic kettlebell. Actually, it wasn't.

• 2:17:26Jocko Willink?

  Called them that for seven months. What are you talking about?

• 2:17:29Speaker 01

  It wasn't heat. It was like an intro or an offering. What's an artistic kettlebell? You know, like primal bells, the ones that look like.

• 2:17:35Jocko Willink?

  They have like faces on them.

• 2:17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what I'm talking about from on it. Cyclopses on them. Yeah, or the gorilla. Here's the thing, bruh, they're, bruh, don't even teeth, bruh, they're the best.

• 2:17:44Jocko Willink?

  No, I got you.

• 2:17:45Speaker 01

  Do you do kettlebells? I used to. Yeah. What, the boring round one? Yeah. So you get the, the werewolf one is way better. Yeah, it even looks better. Anyway, they're cool. And, and you get it from on it. So there's that. I got rings and there's a bunch of other work, cool workout stuff. Kettlebells are awesome. Yeah, good. Yeah. But if they look awesome, that's even more awesome. Well, they sell the regular ones too, by the way, but that's a lot of information too on the website, on it.com.

• 2:18:10Jocko Willink?

  Plus psychological war, psychological warfare. And we're working on the second album, but that's on iTunes. If you want to hear me talking about

• 2:18:21Jocko Willink?

  when to get after it instead of being a little baby and succumbing to your own pathetic, horrible laziness.

• 2:18:33Speaker 01

  Moment of weakness, yeah.

• 2:18:35Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Yeah, there's that.

• 2:18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:37Jocko Willink?

  There's, there's white tea.

• 2:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jaco White Tea in cans too, by the way, if you like tea in a can, or if you just like the whole idea of holding a can, you know, like how you do with the energy drinks or whatever.

• 2:18:47Jocko Willink?

  JP told me today, he's like, God, can you just pay me in Jaco White Tea? Cause you know, he's an echelon front and I'm like, brother, we can make it happen.

• 2:18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 2:18:56Jocko Willink?

  He's ordering Jaco White Tea, which is awesome. Like I said, it's awesome because. As I said last time, JP, he used to get on those energy drinks.

• 2:19:04Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:04Jocko Willink?

  Big time.

• 2:19:05Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:06Jocko Willink?

  And now he's just getting on a little Jocka White Tea. Dean's been hammering the Jocka White Tea. And you're also an energy drink guy.

• 2:19:14Dean Lister?

  Yeah, those were the days where it wasn't regulated, you know.

• 2:19:18Speaker 01

  Oh, you had the Ephedra tea. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:19:21Dean Lister?

  It's not good for you. Not good for you.

• 2:19:23Speaker 01

  Hey, do you drink tea like in normal, like, everyday life? Are you a tea drinker? Yeah, that's weird, right? Me too, but I pound these. I pound these all the time. How's this?

• 2:19:31Dean Lister?

  No, I stopped, I stopped using like the Red Bull type stuff. That's not really.

• 2:19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and what? This is like a transition.

• 2:19:38Dean Lister?

  Yes.

• 2:19:38Jocko Willink?

  I had, I had, uh, like an energy type drink the other day. And, cause I was driving and I needed a little bit of energy. And it was like one of those ones and it said, you know, like all the, all the little buzzwords on it. Healthy, natural, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I drank this thing and all of a sudden, thirty minutes later, I feel like I'm gonna start stabbing, like, the road with a battle axe and attacking people. And I go, whoop. It had two hundred milligrams of caffeine. Two hundred milligrams of caffeine.

• 2:20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's gonna get you.

• 2:20:11Jocko Willink?

  Bro, what are you doing? Don't give me all that. Are you psycho?

• 2:20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you're right, it's their fault.

• 2:20:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:17Speaker 01

  No, yeah, you're right, you're right. It's all their fault, not your fault at all. No, no, no, all good. How's this? So, my wife, she's, she's on the path, my wife, big time. Actually now, just like, boom, on the path, hardcore. So I look.

• 2:20:28Jocko Willink?

  She can listen to that podcast.

• 2:20:29Speaker 01

  Bro, I looked on her phone and it has the podcast on. And she's, she's the kind where it's like.

• 2:20:35Speaker 01

  And not the kind where it's like, hey, I'm listening to a podcast. It's not that. She's like, just on her own, on her own kind of thing. And I'm like, oh man. So I'm like, okay, the other day, okay, this was just in, this was maybe, this maybe to start maybe three, four weeks ago, right? In the game. So the other day, I hear, I'm like in the side, not in the next room, but kinda like to the side. Like, I'm not in her visual, like, thing. So her, you know how people, I'm not saying my wife talks to herself, I'm not saying that. But you know, you say something, you say, oops, you made a mistake, just kinda under your breath kind of stuff. She's like.

• 2:21:03Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:21:04Speaker 01

  She, she goes, she pops another one of these cans, she's like, I love this stuff. Like, to herself. Yeah, not to me. She was like on her own, like popping them. And yeah, she's, she's pounding this, this stuff. So it's interesting, I asked, here's the thing, she is kind of a tea drinker. She likes like tea and stuff.

• 2:21:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay, if it was a blind, double-blind test and.

• 2:21:28Jocko Willink?

  You just, you just came into a room and you'd never drank this before and, and you picked up a cup. Somebody put it in your hand and put it in your mouth. Would you say it was tea?

• 2:21:38Speaker 01

  I would, but I'm not like a, hey, that's, that's tea. You know, I'm not a tea drinker. That's why I was asking if you're a tea drinker.

• 2:21:44Jocko Willink?

  Cause I know it tastes like tea. If you drink tea, but if it was just, if it was just like you in a, in a store and grabbed a can and you open, you'd be like, oh, this is interesting. You wouldn't maybe necessarily know it was tea.

• 2:21:55Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 2:21:56Dean Lister?

  Yeah, well, don't say that in England. Cold tea is like really weird.

• 2:22:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's evil over there. They think it's evil.

• 2:22:02Speaker 01

  Oh, it's bad thing. Okay.

• 2:22:04Jocko Willink?

  No, they, well, they just don't drink it. They drink their tea warm and, or hot and with milk in it.

• 2:22:09Speaker 01

  Do you put milk in that?

• 2:22:10Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:22:11Speaker 01

  Right. Seems like, like a psycho thing to do with this one.

• 2:22:13Jocko Willink?

  Don't do that.

• 2:22:14Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, it's good.

• 2:22:15Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I got some books, um, Way of the Warrior Kid books for your kid. There's one of them. It's called Way of the Warrior Kid. Then the second one in that series is called Mark's Mission. Got the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. If you need to know how to get after it, that's where you find out how to get after it. The audio version of that book, you get it on iTunes as an MP3 or Amazon Music or Google Play or whatever. Also got Extreme Ownership.

• 2:22:42Jocko Willink?

  That's about combat leadership written by, by me and my brother Leif Babin. And on September 25th, the dichotomy of leadership comes out. The dichotomy of leadership. It's a follow-up. Leif and I wrote it, follow-up to Extreme Ownership. Dives in and gets granular on how to balance the opposing forces of leadership so that you and your team can win. Dichotomy. You like that word?

• 2:23:06Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:08Speaker 01

  Dean's all smiling.

• 2:23:09Dean Lister?

  No, I was waiting for you to say it, actually.

• 2:23:11Jocko Willink?

  I said it once. I only said it once this podcast, which is weird because I should have said it a bunch because in jujitsu. You've got to be aggressive, but there's a dichotomy because you can't be too aggressive.

• 2:23:22Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:23Jocko Willink?

  You've got to be offensive, but at the same time, you've got to also, there's a dichotomy because you've got to be defensive. Right? You've got to train with the gi, but there's a dichotomy because you've also got to train without that gi, right? Yeah. So there's a dichotomy there.

• 2:23:35Dean Lister?

  Gi and no gi, both are very important.

• 2:23:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So you've got to do it. Leadership consulting company. Echelon Front, we solve problems through leadership. Whatever problem you have at your company, at your team, it's a leadership problem. I'm telling you that right now. It's a leadership problem. On some level, it's a leadership problem. If you want help with that, you've got me, Leif Babbin, JP Danelle, Dave Burke, Flynn Cochran, and now Mike Sorelli as well. And that's what we do. We come work with your company and get those leadership problems solved, which will solve whatever inherent problems are within your team, your company, your business. Muster 006 in San Francisco, California, October 17th and 18th. All the other ones have sold out.

• 2:24:20Jocko Willink?

  This one is apparently on track to sell out even faster than all the other ones. So if you want to come to that, go to extremeownership.com, get registered. We'll see you up there. Leadership seminar, two days of

• 2:24:33Jocko Willink?

  granular, practical leadership. It's not, it's not a motivational.

• 2:24:40Dean Lister?

  You can do this.

• 2:24:41Jocko Willink?

  And I'm not saying you won't be motivated because I get motivated, but we're not there going like, how can we motivate these people? That's not even, that's, that word's not even said at any point.

• 2:24:51Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:51Jocko Willink?

  At all.

• 2:24:51Speaker 01

  Neither is you can do it.

• 2:24:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:53Speaker 01

  Don't think that you ever say that, ever.

• 2:24:56Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:24:57Dean Lister?

  You have the strength today. You are a strong person. You believe in yourself. You are great.

• 2:25:03Speaker 01

  For sure he doesn't say that.

• 2:25:05Jocko Willink?

  That is not what is happening. That is not what is happening. We, we talk about leadership and leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield. It's the most important thing in your business and it's the most important thing in your life. So if you want to come and learn some pragmatic leadership skills, then come to the muster.

• 2:25:23Jocko Willink?

  Also for current law enforcement, military, border patrol, firefighters, paramedics, first responders, all you out there in uniform, we got roll call number 001. It's our first roll call. We're having a roll call because the muster's two days. It's pricey and we wanted to offer something to military, law enforcement, to the folks out there in uniform to come and get a condensed version focused on the dynamic leadership situations that you all face. That's September 21st in Dallas, Texas. You also register for that at extremeownership.com. And also, we now have EF Overwatch, Echelon Front Overwatch, EFOverwatch.com. Okay, so this is it. We've been working with companies for all these

• 2:26:07Jocko Willink?

  years. All these years, we've been working with all these various different companies and all these companies, we work with them and help their leadership. Well, they want to hire leaders. They want to bring leaders on board. We were also in the military, all of us at Echelon Front, we're in the military and we have connections with a lot of people that were in the military that, that want to go work at jobs with great companies. So in order to connect those two groups, people that want jobs and people that need leaders in their business, go to EFOverwatch.com to get in the game. And you can either register

• 2:26:50Jocko Willink?

  as someone that's looking for a job. It's focused on special ops folks and combat aviation, those types of what we're looking at right now. We're going to broaden that out and, and put together another company in the very near for another arm of this company. And, but that's where we're starting because that's, that basically the reason we're starting there is because that's the element that we have connections with. And so as we expand and we're working this right now to get the lines of communication open in the other branches of the military so that we can bring on board, you know, other folks. But again, this is, we started with the groups that we know. So if you're in those groups,

• 2:27:32Jocko Willink?

  Go, register. If you're getting ready to retire, if you're looking at getting out and you don't know what you're gonna do next. We need leaders. America needs leaders. These businesses need experienced leaders that understand the principles we talk about. The principles that are in extreme ownership, the things that you learned in combat, the things you learned leading troops on the battlefield. Your skills are needed. So hit us up, efoverwatch.com. Get registered, get in the game and we'll get you, uh, get your next mission. Talk about having your next mission all the time. We will get you your next mission. We've got a bunch of companies that are, they need you.

• 2:28:16Jocko Willink?

  And if you want to spend some time with us, virtually, until we're rolling. Till we're rolling at the muster, or rolling in Texas, or rolling at the immersion camp. Until then, we're all up on the interwebs. Dean, Dean Lister. Dean is at, on Instagram, Dean is at Dean Lister, DJJ. That's right. On Twitter, you might not even remember this. On Twitter, you're Dean underscore Lister. I looked up to see if you had Twitter. You had a post, your, your, your last post was in 2010. Oh, okay. Did Twitter exist in 2010? I'm not even kidding. I thought Twitter was like three years old.

• 2:29:01Speaker 01

  No, that's.

• 2:29:03Jocko Willink?

  Has it been around that long? When was it invented?

• 2:29:05Speaker 01

  Obviously before 2010.

• 2:29:07Jocko Willink?

  Makes sense. I didn't ask, I knew that.

• 2:29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, cause you just kinda said you didn't, but you know, all good. Yeah. What, three years ago, factually.

• 2:29:19Jocko Willink?

  And, uh, Facebook, you do, you do Facebook. Yeah, more, yeah. You do Instagram?

• 2:29:24Dean Lister?

  Yeah, Instagram more now. Facebook, there's, there's one is like a fan, you know, they make the audit generate one for you. If you're fine, USC, or whatever, or if you have a certain amount of friends, I have that personal one. It's me and my mom, my sister in the cage, and then there was another one, I don't know who it is.

• 2:29:40Speaker 01

  Me. Remember you made, no, you didn't make me, but you asked me to set you up one like ten years ago.

• 2:29:46Dean Lister?

  Yeah, but there, there's another one.

• 2:29:47Speaker 01

  Oh, another one on top of that.

• 2:29:48Dean Lister?

  That someone, it's actually post things about me, but.

• 2:29:51Jocko Willink?

  What's the real one?

• 2:29:52Dean Lister?

  It's a, just Dean Lister.

• 2:29:54Jocko Willink?

  Dean Lister?

• 2:29:54Dean Lister?

  Yeah, it's just, that's me in a cage with my, my mom and my sister, yeah.

• 2:29:58Jocko Willink?

  Right on, right on. And that's where you can find us. And of course, Echo is at Echo Charles in all mediums. And I am at Jaco Willing. Echo, you got anything else?

• 2:30:08Speaker 01

  Pretty cool to hang with Dean in this capacity, you know, like, literally every time I come here, pretty much.

• 2:30:14Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:14Speaker 01

  Literally, pretty much, I see you, you know, whatever. By the way, you're my first, actually, your class was my third jujitsu class.

• 2:30:25Dean Lister?

  Really?

• 2:30:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:26Dean Lister?

  Was it on Chulavister?

• 2:30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, Chulavister, in that half.

• 2:30:29Dean Lister?

  Oh, yeah, I remember you coming here. You were strong back then, too.

• 2:30:32Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever heard him tell that? So like, he thought he could take you, kinda?

• 2:30:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, I told him that story a couple of times. Yeah, me and Cake Nut. No, no, whoa, no, no, okay. So the me and Cake Nut story is different. So it was like, when I, for the first time I ever rolled with you, you were like, yeah, yeah, come roll, like, you know.

• 2:30:46Dean Lister?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:46Speaker 01

  And I was like, yeah, whatever. Like, how, how, this is literally what I thought. How embarrassing is it gonna be? And how awkward is it gonna be if like, I get Dean today? Like, that's all, what I was thinking. I was literally, not to, it wasn't like this fantasy. I was literally worried about the awkwardness. So that's how real it was to me. I didn't, I'm not saying I was gonna get you, but to me, there was a chance. But I was like, yeah, it's okay, you know, he'll, he'll respect that if that happens. I'm not saying it will, but it might, kinda thing. Right when you, you know how you're saying, right when you locked up, and this is, uh, this was maybe like a week.

• 2:31:18Dean Lister?

  Five or something.

• 2:31:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, five, yeah. So this is maybe like a week or two into jujitsu. Even then, right when we locked up, I knew, okay, that there is zero chance of me beating Dean.

• 2:31:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's when Dave Burke came on and we were talking about Top Gun and how like, he he he set it up really nicely and he's like, oh, if he had a guy that was really good and blah blah blah, he won this whole thing. He's like, then his chance of beating, uh, you know, me as a Top Gun instructor would be zero. Zero percent. There's no, and that's kind of the situation. There's literally, I'm saying there's actually no possible way. No possible way that you could have submitted Dean Lister. No possible way.

• 2:31:56Speaker 01

  And I knew that, like, literally right when we locked up. And I was like, okay. And it was, uh, and even at that point, even before, this was like when you were in Pride. This was like right after you won, uh, or maybe right before. No, no, it was right before you won ADCC. Oh, man. Or right after. I don't know. I remember one day you came in and everyone cheered for you because it's the first, you know, it was like your second day back.

• 2:32:19Dean Lister?

  When I faced John Jacque Machado in the super fight, maybe.

• 2:32:21Speaker 01

  Yes, that's what it was. Actually, yeah, no, that's exactly what it was.

• 2:32:24Jocko Willink?

  John Jacque Machado in the super fight. So we had Camprito, who's an awesome guy, came up to help train you. And so we were all training you and we were all training with you and, and, uh, when we got to the fight, this is, this is the difference in attitudes, right? So we got to the match. I won't call it a fight because it's not a fight. It's a match.

• 2:32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:43Jocko Willink?

  And you were going against John Jacque Machado, who's a, you know,

• 2:32:46Dean Lister?

  Legendary.

• 2:32:47Jocko Willink?

  Legendary jiu-jitsu player. And when you got to like a dominant position and you were up by like,

• 2:32:54Dean Lister?

  It was like, hold on.

• 2:32:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you were up by like three or four points.

• 2:32:57Dean Lister?

  Go for the, you were saying, for submission.

• 2:32:59Jocko Willink?

  Camprito's like, no, hold right there. Hold. You got this. You know, like that type of thing.

• 2:33:03Dean Lister?

  Strategical. Brazilians stick by their game plan.

• 2:33:06Jocko Willink?

  And I'm going, finish him.

• 2:33:10Dean Lister?

  That day was a good day. It was funny, right before the match, Camprito trained for like three weeks, you know, and, uh, Camprito, right before the match, he goes, hey, Dean, I want to talk to you. He said it in English, actually. He went, just so you know, I came down here to help you and. If you don't win today, I've let you down and I feel like I'm a, I'm a like whatever. I was like, he's like, so if you lose, I lose also. And you know, I really hope you win. And, and I'm like, damn, the pressure, you know? Was that ownership? It wasn't me. I'm like, I don't want to let this get done. Like, I let you down if I'm like, I'm not, I don't want to let you down.

• 2:33:44Jocko Willink?

  You played some psyops on you. It's pretty good and it worked.

• 2:33:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, but yeah, but yeah, that was, uh, yeah, that was it. That was good. It's good. Well, it's because my point is it's cool to hang with you in this capacity. Uh, you know, slightly different, but.

• 2:33:56Dean Lister?

  Life was more simple back then.

• 2:33:58Jocko Willink?

  Dean, any closing thoughts?

• 2:34:00Dean Lister?

  No, just, uh, you mentioned the first responders. I think for them, most importantly, get on the mat. If you, uh, any kind of first responder, you deal with erratic people. I think it's really good. Uh, it does take some, some measure to put yourself in the situation where you are. You will be weaker than people to get stronger, but I think it's very important. I think that's, I see more SEALs on the mat than I do cops. And I think cops need more than, than a SEAL, you know? So I hope to see more of this first responders on the mat, learning this kind of stuff. It's, it's really valuable. Definitely. And I look forward to the immersion camp. Looking forward to that. Looking forward.

• 2:34:39Jocko Willink?

  Awesome, man. Well, uh, obviously thanks for coming on, Dean. I know we've been putting this off for a while. And I'm sure you'll be back on again and we'll talk more jujitsu stories, et cetera. And, uh, thanks to everyone else out there for listening and, and especially those of you that wear the uniform. So yeah, you know, military, police, firefighters, border patrol, paramedics, other first responders. We know that all of you make sacrifices every day to protect us and we absolutely thank you for that. And like Dean, I also hope that all of you in all those jobs, find some time to train some jujitsu.

• 2:35:24Jocko Willink?

  Because it'll make you better at your job. It'll make you better at life. And if you can't find jujitsu, go find some boxing or some judo or some wrestling or some Muay Thai or some way to train so that you can fight when the time comes. And, and really that goes to everyone that is listening to this. If you can, get out there and fight.

• 2:35:47Jocko Willink?

  Get out there and fight, fight literally. And fight metaphorically in your everyday life. Fight against the enemy, fight against the criminals, fight against fire and catastrophe, fight against your training partners, fight against your weakness, fight against sloth, fight against laziness and stagnation, and fight to stay on the path and live in accordance with the way.

• 2:36:16Jocko Willink?

  By getting out there. And getting after it.

• 2:36:22Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Dean and Echo and Jaco. Out.