Logic: Logic & Chris Zarou (2018)

In 2010, Logic the rapper—born as Sir Robert Bryson Hall II—released his first official mixtape titled "Young, Broke & Infamous." At 20 years old, Logic certainly was young and broke, and while crashing on a friend's couch, he poured himself into his music. Logic's career could have fizzled if it wasn't for Chris Zarou, a young college athlete-turned-manager who had no more experience in the music business than Logic. Undeterred, the two decided to work together, continuing to use free music and social media to build Logic's reputation as a talented, fast-flowing rapper with a hopeful message. In 2012, Logic signed to Def Jam Records and in 2014 dropped his debut album "Under Pressure," which shot to number 4 on the Billboard charts. His third album in 2017 went platinum and included the breakout single "1 800 273 8255." See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

  Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2 a.m. kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people? So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan,

• 0:46Guy Raz?

  build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea, what separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt. We get support from U.S. Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't.

• 1:32Guy Raz?

  Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems. But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands on the table in rewards you never earned, money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get The US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card.

• 2:14Guy Raz?

  Now you're earning 3% cash back on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc. Some restrictions apply. If you travel often, you'll want to hear about this unprecedented offer.

• 2:58Guy Raz?

  For the first time ever, new Delta SkyMiles Reserve American Express Card members can earn two Delta Comfort round trip flights for travel within the 48 contiguous US states, Puerto Rico, or the US Virgin Islands. Plus, you can earn 50,000 bonus miles towards your next getaway. And who doesn't appreciate an elevated airport experience? Delta SkyMiles Reserve Card members get access to the Delta Sky Club, your pre-flight oasis to recharge with 15 visits and four one-time guest passes each medallion year when flying Delta together. That's up to $950 in annual value.

• 3:40Guy Raz?

  Value estimate based on $50 per visit rate to purchase additional visits or bring a guest to the Delta Sky Club. Make every trip feel more rewarding with the card that upgrades your travel. Apply today at delta.com/cardsocial. Offer ends November 4, 2026. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Flights are fulfilled as flight certificates valid for Delta Comfort or Delta Main to select domestic destinations. Book 21-plus days in advance. Up to $80 per person and taxes and fees apply. Other restrictions apply. When I pull up to a gas pump to fill my car, I'm not thinking about chemistry or engineering. I'm thinking about getting in, filling up, and getting on with my day.

• 4:23Guy Raz?

  And it reminds me a little bit of the founders I talked to on this show, because the best ones obsess over things their customers will never see. Tiny details, invisible improvements, relentless iteration. And not because anyone's watching, but because it makes the product better. That's what the mobile brand does. It engineers fuel the same way great founders engineer their products. Mobile Supreme Plus Premium Gas helps keep engines three times cleaner, which can mean better performance and improved gas mileage. It's for people who care about what's under the hood, even if they never see it. Three times cleaner compared to mobile regular gas in port fuel-injected engines. Actual results may vary.

• 5:07Guy Raz?

  Visit mobili fuels.com for details. Hey, everyone. So it's August, which means we are taking a bit of a break. Before we return in a few weeks, we have a whole bunch of new episodes. But even while we are away, we are still putting out new content every single week. My conversations from the How I Built This virtual summit. And this Thursday, it's Adam Grant, the author of bestselling books like Think Again and Originals. He's got some really excellent advice on how to think creatively, how to know when you're in a rut, and how to get out of said rut. Adam and I spoke back in May, and that conversation will be in your podcast feed later this week.

• 5:49Guy Raz?

  But in the meantime, we're replaying my interview with Logic and Chris Zarou from 2019. And even if you've heard it before, we can all agree that this one really is totally worth hearing again. It is one of the best episodes of the show ever. So here you go.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I met a lot of shady people who wanted to manage me. I didn't feel like I was a priority. It was a bunch of guys who knew everything and were telling me, you gotta have a girl record, you gotta have a hard record, you gotta have a record for the club, you gotta this, you gotta that. And they're like telling me what to do. And I sat down with a young man who had just as much experience as I did and was prepared to risk everything to attain his dream. And he needed me, needed me as much as I needed him. And I was like, yeah, let's like, YOLO. Like, let's do it, man.

• 6:53Guy Raz?

  From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 7:04Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how a broke rapper and an aspiring music manager with no experience teamed up to top the Billboard charts and build a multimillion-dollar business.

• 7:18Guy Raz?

  So about two years ago, if you turned on a pop music station, you could not get away from this song.

• 7:36Guy Raz?

  Now, if you don't know this track, it's worth listening to. The title of the song is 1-800-273-8255. This also happens to be the phone number for the American National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. This song blew up on the Billboard charts. It was nominated for a Grammy, and it actually turned Logic, the rapper behind the track, into a superstar. This song, as you can imagine, is about pain, about the pain of loneliness and depression, two subjects that aren't always front and center in the world of hip hop. And the thing about this song is, when Logic performs it live, people in the audience break down and cry. So many people connect with it in a deep and personal way,

• 8:21Guy Raz?

  almost like he's rapping about their exact experiences. But Logic, who was actually born Sir Robert Bryson Hall II, was writing something that authentically describes his own experience, about growing up around violence and addiction, without a stable home life, and sometimes without anywhere to live. And the chances that he'd one day be performing in front of tens of thousands of people was so totally remote. But what Logic could do was write music and rap. And for the most part, that's what he was doing 10 years ago, in and around the Washington DC area. At around the same time, Chris Zarou was a recent college graduate

• 9:05Guy Raz?

  struggling to find work in the music industry. In fact, he couldn't even get an internship at any of the big record labels when he first came across Logic. But we'll get there. Because the story of how Logic built the brand Logic is as much about his talent as a musician as it is about Chris Zarou's talent as a marketer. And today's episode is about what happens when two totally different people with totally different skill sets happen to meet. And just a note, you'll hear from Chris a bit later. First, to Logic, who, as I mentioned, was born Sir Robert Bryson Hall II.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  My dad likes to tell me now that we have a better relationship that he's the one who named me that. But I know it was my mom because she's of English descent, if you go far back enough. And she's an eccentric woman. And she decided to name me Sir first. And my father's name is Robert Bryson Hall. And so she named me Sir Robert Bryson Hall II, wherein technically, because she added the Sir, I'm actually the first, which is really funny. And whenever I have a boy, I'll name him the third, but he'll be the second.

• 10:13Guy Raz?

  So tell me about your parents. And I guess you were the only child of their marriage or their time together. Were they married?

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yep. They were never married. I was born out of wedlock. My mom, the nitty gritty of it is, she's just a deep, deep, deep, deep down good woman who, at a young age, was molested. She'd been raped growing up. She got into all kinds of drugs, running around with drug dealers. And my father was never really in the picture because he was addicted to crack cocaine.

• 10:47Guy Raz?

  So when you were little, it was just, you never knew your dad. You just knew your mom?

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I knew my dad, you know, but I I knew him as a drug addict, which is messed up, you know. But he, yeah, it was like he'd go away for a few years and then he'd come back and he'd leave and then he'd come back and but they were never together. That's the one thing is like they, it's really weird. I've seen my mom go back to a lot of men. She never went back to him. I never had that moment or that time of where I felt like family.

• 11:18Guy Raz?

  So your, your mom and dad, basically, they had a brief relationship. You were, you're the product of that relationship. Your dad is African American, your mom is Caucasian, she's white.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:30Guy Raz?

  And tell me about like where you grew up. Did you, did you grow up in a, in a house or an apartment?

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, we grew up in section eight housing, so food stamps, welfare. Had a few hundred dollars a month from the government to live off.

• 11:43Guy Raz?

  It was you and your mom?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, just me and my mom. She spent a lot of that in different times on, you know, alcohol and cigarettes and I, I, you know, remember times where we'd have three and a half dollars that could have bought us some rice and some, uh, some powdered eggs and, you know, she'd buy a pack of cigarettes. And I grew up with her saying the craziest things, like I would, I was just a kid, you know, I was a hyper kid and then if I pissed her off, she'd say things like, you deserve to feel pain, or she'd call me a [BLEEP] or any of these crazy things because of the systemic racism that was deep down inside her, which is insane. But mind you, it's like she was troubled, so I, I feel bad for her. It's not like I'm like, oh, my mom, screw her, terrible woman. It's just like, was she a good mom? No. Was she a human being who had a terrible past and took that out on me and her other kids? Yes, and that's the reason she's not in my life.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  It's just that simple.

• 12:30Guy Raz?

  So you grew up with your mom mainly and you would see your dad from time to time and was he, would he sort of go in and out of, of bad spells or was he constantly, you know, using drugs?

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was, he was pretty much constantly using drugs. Um, you know, a lot of my childhood was in AA meetings, like, you know, you know, um, just kind of reciting the prayer at the end of it and listening to all these people talk about all the things they go through, which is so hard and it's so difficult and seeing people, um, you know, just kind of using again and then getting clean and this and that. And my dad was like that. One of my earliest childhood memories, I was about five and my dad, I don't know why I was with him, but my, I was with him for, I think, the weekend and my dad took me to southeast DC and left me in a car.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Back of a car for five hours while him and some woman I didn't know went to go smoke crack in this, in this house, which was insane. It's crazy.

• 13:37Guy Raz?

  How, how did you avoid like getting into drugs and alcohol?

• 13:42Speaker 01

  It just really, really, really scared me, you know? I ran around. I've done a lot of stuff. I've shot guns. I've robbed people. I've ran from the police. I've done a bunch of stupid things because I was around other stupid people because I felt that they were my family. You know, it's why a lot of young men and women join actual like real gangs. It's because they have nothing at home and here's a family who will protect them. And it's kind of sick and twisted because it's like, okay, we're gonna hurt other people, but these people won't hurt me. So we'll hurt others together and then at least that way I'm safe. But there was that voice deep down that was like, yo, like this isn't right. And for me, when I got into music for real, and I was 18, and I was like, I'm not gonna

• 14:24Speaker 01

  let anything hold this back. My father is an incredible musician, singer percussionist, playing go-go in Chocolate City, DC. I mean, amazing. And I saw what cocaine did to him. And, and I was like, I can't let this happen to me. So that's why I steered clear from it.

• 14:41Guy Raz?

  So, so sticking with music for, for a second, being exposed to it, I guess as a teenager, you, you started to meet some people who, who kind of took an interest in you musically. Who, who were they?

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Well, kind of even when it comes to music, I had a friend named Josh. And he was, who would eventually go on to be my, my godmother's son. And her name was Mary Jo, and I love her, and she's the sweetest woman in the world. And he kind of saw that I had a niche for raps. I just freestyled, you know, on the block with all, all my friends and had fun. And so he, he was a person that was there. And a gentleman named Solomon Taylor, who was my mentor.

• 15:17Guy Raz?

  Who's Solomon?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  So Solomon was this guy that I met when I was volunteering at RFL, which is the Rockville Football League, just to get extra credit to be able to pass eighth grade. So I was 13, he was 19 at the time. And he's a hustler. So basically, you have all these football, I would set up the football fields and you'd have like pee-wee and- You know, these kids in middle school and stuff playing football. And what he would do is he would show up and how he built this whole kind of business is he would film the kids' games and then duplicate the tapes, create highlights and then sell those to the parents, which was really amazing. And then, so we became friends and then I eventually kind of worked for him at his booth and he paid me nothing. And it taught me a lot about a lot in the winter and the freezing cold and the snow standing at a booth outside. And this dude was there for me.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  He, he, he, he introduced me to, you know, so many incredible MCs. He, he, he brought me these old things called How to Be an MC CDs, which is basically like a bunch of instrumentals, famous instrumentals of the 2000s. And he'd be like, rap on these. And I would literally rap on every single song. And if he, he gives me 10 CDs, there's like 80 beats. I rapped on those and he was cool and he was great. He was, he was a good dude.

• 16:28Guy Raz?

  I read that, I read that when the movie Kill Bill came out, you got, you got the soundtrack to that, to that film, which was, um, which was produced and, and composed by, by, by RZA from Wu-Tang Clan. And that was like a huge, like turning point for you. You heard this and you were like, what is this?

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, man, that movie, like, it's just something about it. There was probably also the fact that my mom was like, you can't watch this, it's too bloody and then, you know, your parents say, don't do something, then you want to go do it.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  When I heard that soundtrack, I was like, who the hell is the RZA? You know? And like, this was like back in the time, like where it was like, uh, pop, lock and drop it and do that, laugh it, tap it. It was like that, like the whole South, like fun turn up music, but I, I wanted something a little deeper.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  I'd listen to ATLians and, you know, uh, so OutKast, UGK, like hearing those stories. So after being introduced to the RZA, I found Wu-Tang Clan.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  And obviously we've all heard of Wu-Tang Clan.

• 17:39Guy Raz?

  Sure.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  But I'm, you know, I'm a 14 year old kid, like I don't really know, I'm learning. And then I listened to Wu-Tang and I'm listening to the Wu-Tang album and then I discover Ray Kwan's Only Bill for Cuban Links and then I discover Nas. And then I discovered the beef between Nas and Jay-Z, like truly.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  If it wasn't for Kill Bill, if it wasn't for The Riz, and if it wasn't for Tarantino, dude, like, we wouldn't even be talking right now.

• 18:04Guy Raz?

  So when you were, like, already a teenager, were you just, like, would you just rap with friends, like, just mess around and just, like, you know, throw out rhymes or just try to imitate your favorite artists, or did that come later?

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, no, that was, yeah, for sure. Like, we would always do freestyles. But I took it seriously. When I was 15 and I was introduced to how to record myself through, you know, a BS microphone into a computer, like, I took it seriously. And I learned to emulate all my favorites. How does Pac rap like this? How does Jay do this? How does Kanye do that? I want to rap over this boom bap 90s beat, this Run DMC beat. Okay, now I want to rap over a super mainstream hit song. I want to sing like Drake. I want to do this like that. I wanted to do it all.

• 18:50Guy Raz?

  So take me back to 2007. You're 17. You leave home. You stop living with your mom. And you're working jobs, but you're also making music. But how were you actually making music? Like, did you buy a microphone? And like, did you have a computer? And like, what were, how were you actually doing that?

• 19:07Speaker 01

  I, um, I was on a Yahoo messaging chat about music and hip-hop. And some, some person introduced me to a program for recording. A lot of people use it in radio called Adobe Audition.

• 19:19Guy Raz?

  Sure.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  And I was like, what the hell is that? I don't know what that is. And this is back in the day where, like, this small file took probably about nine hours. The person actually was sat with me for nine hours on my computer. So they were somewhere else. I think it had been Alaska. I don't remember. And they transferred the file onto my computer.

• 19:37Guy Raz?

  It was an illegal download?

• 19:39Speaker 01

  100%. Everything was.

• 19:40Guy Raz?

  Yeah, right.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I learned kind of how to use that. And by the time I was 18 years old and living with Mary Jo and had two jobs, Solomon had provided me with a PC, very strong PC at the time, and a million torrented albums. I mean, from Jay-Z to R. Kelly. I was rapping on Brian McKnight beats. Like, it was whatever. It didn't matter what it was.

• 20:05Guy Raz?

  You would just take, you just take like beats and like samples from other records and then just like mess around and rap over those?

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I would just like loop them. I would like loop the end of the beat and I had the beat and I did that with a $80 microphone in a jerry-rigged closet with pillows around it and, and just would just go. I would just go and go and go and I would just, it's wild. And the crazy thing is I have every song I've ever created.

• 20:32Guy Raz?

  Wow. But you thought you were going to, I mean, you were like working Jiffy Lube or whatever job you could get, but like you really thought, I am gonna make a career out of being a performer? Like, this is what I'm gonna do? Like, you really thought that?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  That moment came two years later. I was 20 years old and it's before I put out my first mixtape ever called Young Broken Infamous to the public on the hosting site datpiff.com.

• 20:55Guy Raz?

  But you would just put, you just put your mixtape out there of your own music and anybody could put, put their music on the site?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. Anybody could put their music on the site. I think you had to pay like 50 bucks or something to upload it, but that was the ti- that was the moment. There's actually a song on there called Young Sinatra, which then inspired the series. So then my following mixtape was Young Sinatra, then Young Sinatra 1, 2, 3, 4. So that's when I said, I was working at a supermarket, I quit. And I was like, this is it. This is everything. I'm just gonna do it. Now is the time. I'm young. It's okay to fail now. It's okay to fall down, because I don't want to look back in my 50s like with regret.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Can you imagine being, you know, 50, 60, 70 years old, filled with regret? There was that voice in my head like, nah, man, you can do this. And that's when I went to go live with, with Lenny in his basement in College Park.

• 21:56Guy Raz?

  So you were living in a basement with a friend in College Park, it's around 2010, 2009, 2010? I'm trying to understand. I mean, you decide, I'm gonna make, I'm gonna make a go at this. Like, you're putting out mixtapes and I guess you're performing locally, you're like going to open mics and stuff? But you had no money. You were still, I'm assuming you were still pretty broke?

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Oh, you don't understand. I was so broke that I- I would steal quarters from Lenny's little like collection that he had so I could go buy food and he actually like screamed at me and was like, just ask, man, like, it's all good, like, you just got, you know, all I gotta do is ask. And I didn't have a job. I was supposed to get a job when I moved in with him and I was living with him, his brother and his, his mother who passed away named Kathy, beautiful woman, so amazing, took care of me. And I kind of just sat down with him and was like, can you just give me a year? Like, can you just give me one? I know this is insane, but it seems like every week, something new is and exciting is happening and now is the moment, like, could you just give me just one year? And this was 2011, so I was 20, I was just turned

• 22:55Speaker 01

  21. And, and, and yeah, he gave, for a year, I did everything I could and-

• 23:01Guy Raz?

  You just put out music on the internet. You weren't selling it at that point.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, no, it was all free.

• 23:07Guy Raz?

  All right, we're gonna come back to Logic in just a couple of minutes, because while he is crashing at his friend's basement, his future manager, Chris Zarou, is going to college in New York. Now, at this point, they do not know each other. And in fact, a career in music isn't even on Chris's radar, because at that point in his life, he was laser focused on soccer.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  I thought I was gonna be a professional athlete. I played soccer very competitively growing up, all the way through high school and, and got an opportunity to play Division One, which, which I thought was the first step to, you know, completing that goal, right?

• 23:50Guy Raz?

  Where were you playing, by the way? What, what college?

• 23:52Speaker 02

  I, I, my freshman year, I played for Canisius College in Buffalo. And, you know, I thought that was the best opportunity for me at the time. They're a very competitive team. Soon after that, I think after my sophomore year, and I had transferred in between then to play at a different school, I realized that I just, you know, I wasn't good enough. I was, I was very good, but I wasn't, I wasn't good enough to play at the higher level.

• 24:15Guy Raz?

  So I'm trying to, trying to figure out how you like made a transition into music. I mean, did you- Did you just think, I'm not going to do sports, I'm going to get into the music business?

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was 20 or 19 probably at the time when I started trying to figure it out. I knew when I stopped playing, I wanted to do something I loved and was passionate about. I think that's all I knew. So I kind of asked myself, you know, what else do I love as much as that sport? And the only thing that I could answer with was music. So I said, okay, that's what I'm going to do. I didn't know where I'd start. I didn't know anybody, I didn't have any relationships. So I would literally go to Barnes and Noble and kind of read books on the music business and try and figure it out. And I chose management because I thought it would be the least barrier to entry. And I was like, okay, if I find talent and start working with them, that would be my way into the business.

• 25:10Guy Raz?

  But you didn't think like, let me go like, see if I get a job working for like one of these big record labels or management companies and kind of get experience? Like, that wasn't what you thought you should do at first?

• 25:21Speaker 02

  I tried. I definitely tried that route. I started with internships. I didn't graduate college yet, so I didn't really apply for jobs. But at almost every major record label, I applied for internships. And, you know, I kept getting turned down one after the other. I actually got one interview that they actually had me come in for an interview. And I thought it went great. And ultimately, they, you know, they said, you know, sorry, this isn't going to work. And I just remember I emailed the woman and I asked, I actually still have the email. I asked, why isn't this going to work? And she told me I didn't have enough experience, which I just thought was really funny because I was going-

• 25:58Guy Raz?

  Going for an internship, yeah.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  Right. And the funny part about it, and the reason why I said, you know, I have the email, I actually printed it out recently and I'm getting it framed for the office. It was Def Jam, which is ultimately where Logic signed to, probably a year, a little bit over a year after that, so.

• 26:14Guy Raz?

  All right, so you're living on Long Island with your parents and getting all these rejections for internships. So what, like, you decide, maybe I'll just do this on my own without an internship? Like, maybe I'll just figure this out?

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and to be honest, I didn't have another choice. I didn't, I couldn't get an internship. I didn't have any relationships or, you know, friends or family that worked in the business that could give me an opportunity. So, yeah, I didn't, I didn't have a choice. That was, that was the only path that I had.

• 26:44Guy Raz?

  So what did you, did you decide to like, start a business? Or did you just- First decide, let me kind of scour the internet and see if I can find someone.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that, that, starting a business came a little bit later. I was just like, you know what? Let me, let me find some talent. Let me, let me reach out to them and, and just kind of start a dialogue and try to build a relationship with some of them and, you know, convince them to, to let me manage them.

• 27:07Guy Raz?

  How did you come across Logic Stuff?

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was kind of by, by chance. It was, you know, I use the word serendipity. I, I was managing an artist, a rapper, at a Philly at the time. And this was 2011, so it was very early days of, of Twitter, you know? And I probably at the time followed 25, 30 people. And I was sitting in front of my computer and his DJ, the rapper's DJ that I managed from Philly, tweeted out a YouTube link, right? There was no description. There was no, um, anything else in, in the tweet. It was just a link. And I, and I clicked it. It was a a cappella video of Logic rapping at the University of Maryland campus.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  And it was super, it was super low budget and poorly done. There was, there was wind in the microphone. He actually, I think, had the microphone tucked in his hoodie. There was just something about it that, that stood out to me and I thought it was really special. And I kind of dug in a little deeper to try and find out who he was and, and, and reached out to him.

• 28:13Guy Raz?

  What did you say? Like, I'm Chris and I'm a, a manager?

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm a manager. You know, can we, can we jump on the phone? Do you have, first of all, I probably asked him if he had management because I didn't want to step on anybody's toes.

• 28:24Guy Raz?

  Sure.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  You have to understand it's, you know, I'm a kid trying to get another kid to trust me with their career. I had no, I had no, yeah, no, no experience, no resume. I think I pointed to some of, or one of the other artists I was working with at the time and said, hey, you know, I'm working with this artist. We had built this so far, you know, check it out. And I'd, I'd love to, uh, to, to be involved.

• 28:49Guy Raz?

  All right, just time out for a sec, Chris. This is what I'm trying to figure out. Like, you were 20 years old and you were emailing, like, different potential artists, including Logic at the time, who was, you know, not that well-known. And you were saying, "I'm a manager." What did you know? Like, what did that mean to you? Like, how would you even know what to do? Like, were there books that said, "Here's how to be the manager of a recording artist"? Like, how did you know what to... How to negotiate contracts and find venues and record music? Like, how did you know to do any of that?

• 29:21Speaker 02

  I didn't, to be honest. You know, a lot of what I was doing was learning as I went. And I... Looking back now, I'm very grateful and glad that I did learn that way, because I think that's the best way to learn. A lot of management and a lot of the music business is very difficult. I don't think you can learn it in a textbook.

• 29:42Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And you called... And I should mention, you called your company Visionary Music Group, right?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:49Guy Raz?

  Which is a great name. It sounds... It makes it sound like a huge company, like you've got a big building in Hollywood. Visionary Music Group.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was a... I remember I made... And at the time, having to come up with a company name, it was more just to kind of, you know, I formed an LLC when I started to make money, because I had to be paid. And I had a little... I remember a Microsoft Word document with some names. And I ended up landing on the word visionary. I thought it was, at the time, fitting. I think that's how Logic and I, you know, looked at ourselves. I think we were doing something very different that I thought and we thought was visionary.

• 30:32Guy Raz?

  All right, Chris, we've been leaving Logic and Lurch here, because you are sitting right next to each other. Logic, what do you... What do you remember about Chris? Like, you were, I guess, 21. This guy named Chris comes down to meet you. What was your first impression of him?

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Actually, we met in New York City. It was my first time ever in New York and it just kinda happened by chance that I was gonna go there to shoot a music video. I wanted to do something that was different.

• 30:58Guy Raz?

  And this was like a low budget, right? A video you're doing like, yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  There's low budget and then there's no budget. And that's what we had.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Literally, you know, just a camera and, you know, point and shoot as we call it.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, I go to New York and Chris had like a friend who had a rooftop and we're like, rooftop? You know, that's, that's content right there. So we're like, yeah, let's get a rooftop in New York. And, and we go there and the, the music video is called Mind of Logic. And it's like skeleton me rapping at like a hundred and twenty pounds, a long time ago, just like winging it.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  After the shoot, he was like, hey, I wanna buy you lunch. And I'm like, free food? You ain't gonna say, say less. Yeah, I'm ready. I'm like, okay, let's do it. And so, we're kinda near Times Square. I'm like, yeah, I'd never been to Times Square before, man. Like, this is great, let's go somewhere. And he's like, oh, okay. And I'm like, yeah, there was like a Ruby Tuesday or something like that. And I'm like, let's go, man. I'm about to get a free chicken sandwich or something. And he's like, nah, you know, yeah, I mean, it's just tourist stuff. You, you wanna go somewhere else? And like, what I didn't realize is, you know, looking back, it's like, I'm talking to a broke college student with maybe a hundred and fifty dollars in his account. Like, if that, like, it's gotta last him the next six years of his life. And, yeah, I mean, we, we talked and he was like, I wanna manage you. And he was honest with me. He was like, hey, look, like, I, I'm just getting into this too.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  He's like, but I've made some connections, I know some people. And, and you know, he had met some people at blogs, different blogs online and, and kinda music spaces where young people were excited. And word of mouth via the internet was a big deal. And I was like, alright, well, I was, I didn't wanna sign anything. That was a big thing. I was like, I don't wanna sign anything. If we're gonna do this, like, I don't wanna sign anything. And he wasn't pushing to sign anything either. And that's a really amazing thing, uh, because he, he allowed, he was like, yo, I'm gonna walk the walk. Like, I'm gonna show you that I'm gonna do this. And that's what we did for about the first six months.

• 33:00Guy Raz?

  Just unsigned, you were like, okay, yeah, we can, we can try this out, but I'm not committing to you.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I remember we released the music video and like overnight it had 20,000 views. Now, you gotta understand, dude, 20,000 views in 2011. I was going from 100 views and it was all people I knew like to that. To the point where I, we actually sat Chris down, all of us. And it kinda felt like an intervention and I was like, yo, what's up, man? You paying for views or what? Cause there's like back then where like people, it was a big deal because it's kinda like fake it till you make it. People would pay and it would be fake. He's like, nah, bro. He's like, I could prove it to you. I could show you and, and man, it was legit.

• 33:44Guy Raz?

  But even before you got to that point, like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to figure out like, you're like eating at Ruby Tuesday or whatever and Chris is like, hey, give me, you know, give me, give me a chance. And you don't have anyone managing you at that point. And I guess you're still not kind of an unknown artist. But what made you think, yeah, I'm gonna trust this guy with zero experience who's like my age? Like what, cause obviously we know how this story is gonna end. But at that point in 2011, you did not. And neither of you knew how this is gonna end. You both could have just like, could have fizzled out. But what was it about him that you thought, yeah, I'm gonna try this?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  I met a lot of shady people who wanted to manage me, you know? Older dudes who were once kinda in the industry, you know, different people who were musicians themselves or this or that. I didn't feel like I was a priority. It was a bunch of guys who knew everything and were telling me, you gotta have a girl record. You gotta have a hard record. You gotta have a record for the club. You gotta this, you gotta that. And they're like telling me what to do. And I sat down with a young man who had just as much experience as I did. And I was looking in a mirror. I was looking at a green kid who had no idea what he was doing and was prepared to risk everything to attain his dream. And he needed me, needed me as much as I needed him.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  And I was like, yeah, let's like YOLO, like let's do it, man. Like, yeah, and that, that's what it was.

• 35:16Guy Raz?

  So, Chris? At this point, and Logic and Chris, forgive me for kind of characterizing this way, but in a sense, like Logic, you were the brand, that the business was being built around you and your brand and your talent and you, it's like you're the product that you're putting out into the world. But Chris, when I do interviews with other entrepreneurs, it's at this point when they go out to VCs and raise money to get the product out into the world. How are you funding this? How are you having Logic record music? Because I think at this time, you were just releasing all of his music for free, just putting it on the internet and letting anybody take it, right?

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And what we were doing, like you said, we were building the brand. I viewed that, putting out free music, as investing in the brand, right? As we were building an audience and a fan base that was becoming more and more invested. And what that means is that they would, later down the road, whenever we asked for it, spend the money, meaning, oh, we're going to put out our first project for sale. Or, hey, we're going to put up a tour for the first time. Will you spend $12 to come see me in San Diego? Hey, we're selling t-shirts for $20. So that's how I viewed it. We were essentially monetizing free music.

• 36:39Guy Raz?

  So how did you guys make a living? I mean, if in 2011, 2012, you were putting out, and maybe even 2013, you were just putting out free music, how are you guys paying your rent? How are you buying food?

• 36:53Speaker 02

  My parents were very, very, very good about allowing me to live there. Again, I was still in school, so I didn't have to worry about that. Logic was still at Lenny's apartment, so we didn't have too many expenses at the time.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  And mind you, not to interrupt, but I was in College Park, sleeping on Lenny's couch, and we were still shopping ourselves. We wanted a deal. That was the goal. And there was even independent companies that put a contract for $1.5 million in our hands.

• 37:26Guy Raz?

  In front of you, wow.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  In front of us. Chris had it and I remember he said something really corny. It was really funny. Like, he was just excited. He was like, "How much you think our brand that we're creating is worth?" And I was like, "I don't know." And he was like, "Well, somebody thinks it's worth 1.5 million." And mind you, it's like, bro, 1.5 million dollars is a lot of money right now. Like, it's like, let alone as like some super broke young kids. And so, we turned it down.

• 37:49Guy Raz?

  You turned it down?

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, we turned it down like it was nothing.

• 37:53Guy Raz?

  Why?

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Because they wanted, I mean, first of all, we were getting screwed over on points, on royalties, on longevity. They also wanted us, they were gonna take a lot of control. And we were like, "No, we always have to be in control because we know what we want."

• 38:07Guy Raz?

  I just wanna kind of pause for a second, just to ask you about music for a moment. Because, like, what do you think it is and it was about your music that connected with people? Like, it's rap, it's hip-hop, but generally, like, you know, you're described as having positive messages and, you know, talking about things in an open way about your own emotions and about injustice and about anxiety and depression. All these things, I mean, do you think that's what was connecting with people, even from the beginning?

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I was the everyman, or every kid, or every person, or every whatever. It was like, people were watching me grow up, like a child star. You know what I mean? Like, they were, they listen to this and they hear me say, "I can't wait to make it. I can't wait to have fans. I can't wait to be the man with the master plan. I can't wait." Like, da-da-da. And they're like, "Me too. Like, I can't wait to graduate college. I can't wait to, you know, raise my children. I can't wait to follow my dreams. I'm gonna do that." And I'm like, "Follow your dreams, like, no matter what. And haters gonna hate."

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Even today, like on a mainstream level, like all, so much of the things I talk about openly from anxiety, depression, uh, just all the, like you said, injustice, the things going on. One, I'm scared to talk about, or I was scared at a point because I was scared that of how people would perceive me or this or that. But two, it's like now it's become a trend. You know, you've got, you've got, you've got rappers, hardcore rappers and people talking about depression and mental health. And I ain't the first one. I think it's just time, place, you know, a bit of image, just, um, was this nerdy young kid that other people felt they could relate to.

• 40:03Guy Raz?

  Yeah. So how soon after, Chris, you started working with Logic, did you say, all right, let's, we got to go on tour and, and, and did you go on tour?

• 40:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm not sure exactly how soon, but it was, it was an intuition thing, right? Because there was no, there was no metrics at the time or data that we had that said, hey, you can sell out 30 shows across the country. It was something that we both felt, hey, I think it, it feels right and, and I think we could probably go, go on a tour now. And how we did that, because that's an expensive thing, right? There's a lot of startup capital that you need to fund a tour. We ultimately signed a record deal to fund our tour because we needed the money. I think we could have waited longer if we had some money, but, um, you know, we didn't have an opportunity to, to, to wait.

• 40:50Guy Raz?

  And just to clarify, this is 2012. The, the record deal you signed is with Def Jam?

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is 2012. Yeah. No ID comes to you, you know, legendary producer who's, you know, new executive at Def Jam and Def Jam in general, like Def Jam Records, the most iconic hip hop rap label is willing to sign you, give you great money, give you creative control. It was kind of like, if there's a time, like now's the time. And yeah, but I'll tell you this, it was very difficult, you know, looking at a check and seeing, you know, lower six figures, very lower, just six figures, uh, in an advance, which is still great. And then literally going, okay, well, you know, after X, Y, and Z takes their percentage, just on my team management lawyer at that time, I have to put all of this into a tour. And, and that was, that was a hard thing.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  But it was, it just as a young man who's like, oh wait, I just got this check and now I gotta let it all go, but it was worth it.

• 41:42Guy Raz?

  Right. This was your sweat equity in the brand, basically.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:46Guy Raz?

  This is like, you had to kind of put all that. So you could have gone through that tour and been broke and we might not be talking today. I mean, that was a possibility.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  The odds were in that favor that it wasn't going to happen.

• 42:02Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, Logic and Chris hit the road, but there will be speed bumps ahead with money and mental health all on the line. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.

• 42:24Guy Raz?

  Does your team want a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship? Well, Framer is built exactly for that. With Framer, you design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting, and a CMS built in. So the work is production-ready from day one, and you can get it done with help from Framer's AI agents. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams, and businesses ship production-ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. Prompt, inspect, edit, and publish in one place at a whole new pace. AI agents and humans work together. The agents bring

• 43:07Guy Raz?

  speed and scale, and people bring taste, judgment, and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities, it's changing the way businesses get work done. The questions they ask, the decisions they make, the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of NetSuite with AI woven into the tools your business already relies on.

• 43:51Guy Raz?

  NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new, expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.

• 44:36Guy Raz?

  If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. netsuite.com/built. Stripe is built for whatever comes next because the pace of change has never been faster than it is right now. New business models, new currencies, and new expectations for speed, reliability, and scale. Stripe builds financial infrastructure that helps businesses start, grow, and operate globally. From payments and billing to fraud protection and cross-border payouts,

• 45:20Guy Raz?

  Stripe is built to support the new pace of commerce. They're trusted by the companies building at the frontier, from 86% of the Forbes AI 50 to global leaders like Salesforce and OpenAI. In fact, more than 1.6% of global GDP flows through Stripe, with Stripe's users processing a combined $1.9 trillion last year. So if you're already thinking about what's next for your business, see what's possible at stripe.com.

• 46:05Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2012. Logic and his manager, Chris Zarou, have signed a record deal with Def Jam. But it's hardly glamorous. They still haven't cut an album, and the money they got from that first deal, they had to put most of it towards their first tour.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  We toured the country in a minivan in a Nissan Altima. Right? I rented from Enterprise Rent-A-Car. And I remember filling out the paperwork, and it specifically said that the cars, the vehicles, could not leave New York State. And we were literally touring the country. And the way it was routed, we were going to California and back. So I was like, all right, they'll, you know, they'll never know we left. And then I ended up getting, you know, a million and one tickets for going through tolls and all over the country. But no, it was not first-class and five-star accommodations. We were lugging garbage bags and we were, you know, selling merch after shows. I'd run and sell merch after shows.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Logic would come over to the merch booth and meet fans. And, um, yeah, so it was, it was a, uh, it was like a mom-and-pop tour. And, uh, we tried to figure it out. And I had my right-hand man today, my, the COO of visionary music group Harrison Remmler at the time. He was in school.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Eric!

• 47:26Speaker 02

  He was 18 years old.

• 47:28Guy Raz?

  Wow. This was your only employee at the time?

• 47:31Speaker 02

  At the time, he wasn't an employee. I think he was interning for me. And I said to him, I said, hey, because I realized very quickly that I couldn't be on the road full-time and try and sustain and run the business. It was very difficult. I think I did the first two weeks of it. And I remember saying to him, I was, hey dude, you know, how do you, would you like to tour manage? And he was, sure. And I threw him on the road. And, um, again-

• 47:54Speaker 01

  We didn't know what we were doing. It was terrible.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  We had no idea what we were doing. I, our accounting, my accounting system was manila envelopes. So before tour, I kind of wrote out every show. So you had Denver, Colorado. And we'd settle the shows in cash. At the time, that tour was actually a no-guarantee tour. So the, the risk was massive.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Tell him real, very quick, because it's something I want to say. Tell him about what happened with the money.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Trust me.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Again, it was manila envelopes and I'd settle and we'd, you know, put the cash in the envelope and seal it. We ended up finishing the tour. So I had these, I think it was 30 shows. I had 30 different envelopes and, and looking back, we just did so, I, I kept a backpack on the tour of all of the envelopes with all of the cash and would carry it around and we would just leave it in a green room and walk away. Now, if someone had took that backpack, that was the entire income from the, from the whole tour.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  So we ended up getting back and I'd, I'd later put everything into, you know, an Excel spreadsheet and, and try and, you know, log everything. So I would take out the cash and I would, you know, count it and put it on top of the manila envelope. And I was at my house at the time. Harrison was helping me. I had, I was working still and Harrison was like, yo, I got it. Don't worry about it. I'll finish up here. I said, cool. I ran off to, to work and I came back.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  What was your job, by the way?

• 49:18Speaker 02

  I worked at a, uh, it was called Rule. It was, it was like an Amber Crombie and Fitch, you know, retail store.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  This is after going on tour with Logic, managing Logic's tour, you were back at the mall, working retail?

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. All right.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  And, and I came, and I came back and the envelopes were gone. There was just 30 piles of cash that I had no idea what belonged to what. And I, and, and I called Harrison and, and I think he ended up trying to clean up. So he took the envelopes and ripped them up and threw them out. So I had no, I had-

• 49:54Speaker 01

  You were hot. Yo, Chris was so mad. We had all this cash. We didn't know where it was. We didn't know how to divvy it. But I say all this to say that Harrison went from fumbling 20 grand or whatever we had to juggling multi, multiple, millions and millions of dollars in this company with Chris. And it just goes to show that some 19-year-old, 18, 19-year-old kid is now this young 30, under 30 boss. And I just, I just had to show some love to him.

• 50:23Guy Raz?

  So you basically are, your, your accounting system is jotting it on the back of a manila envelope and then later on inserting this into Excel. But, but you walk away from that tour in the black. You, you made some cash.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, we did really well. We did really well.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  It was awesome.

• 50:39Guy Raz?

  How do you, and this is a super awkward question for both of you, but I always ask this of partnerships because it is part of business. Like, how do you figure out who gets paid what? I mean, obviously, Logic, you're out there. You're the face of this organization. Like, you represent all of the people now who work for Visionary Music Group and the other people involved. And so, Chris, like, how did you know how to divide that up?

• 51:07Speaker 02

  There's, right, a typical commission is how management works.

• 51:12Guy Raz?

  Right, so 15% or 10%?

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, anywhere from 15% to 20% is the traditional commission for a manager. I've learned to love the commission model the more that I've grown. It's because you don't eat unless everybody eats. There's not one person, you know, at the table that has a full plate when you're starving. It's, that's why I've learned to love commission.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And things are crazy now. You know what I mean? 30-plus million-dollar deals here and there, doing this, doing that. But you just gotta, you gotta look in the mirror and say like, well, does this person deserve it? Truly, like, yes or no? Take your ego out of it. Take, take one and an extra mil here or there in a deal that if they had a lower percentage or that. But the truth is, man, like, he earns every penny because he provides that with me. I don't feel cheated. I never felt that things were unfair or this or that. And we're so open. We have conversations about it. We have talks about it.

• 52:08Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  And also, to be fair, when you get to my level, there are, there's, there's a bunch of different people in your pocket, but they're all there to make you money. But I am always the majority. And I think that that is fair. And where you find yourself with artists who are being like, taken for 70%, like, it's just, I mean, that is insane as a collective. And, and that's where the music industry is really horrible, vile, and they chew you up and spit you out. But this is my friend and my brother in arms.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  And I think that's the, the secret element that has enabled us to be successful for so long is, it's just, it's really simple. It's just genuinely caring. About that person's well being. And what I mean by that, you know, going back to 2012, when we had a 1.5 million dollar offer, I knew in my gut, it wasn't the right opportunity. They were not the right partner. It was not a good deal. But if I had just suggested or advised him that we take this deal, because I didn't really care what happened to him. I wanted to get my commission and get my check. And then, you know, I'm out, but I didn't.

• 53:18Guy Raz?

  So, so this is 2012. It's still going to be like another two years before you guys release your first studio record. But between that point and, and the release of the studio record, you still are releasing mixtapes. Were you guys selling that? Or were you just, again, still kind of building the brand and releasing the music for free?

• 53:38Speaker 02

  We, we were still putting out for free. That tour was a massive eye opener for us. It was what Logic and I had thought we were building. It, it proved to us and I think everybody else that it was, it, it was something very real. Bringing out 300, 400 kids in different cities across the country from putting out free albums and free mixtapes, then selling a lot of merch and, and it was very, it became very real at that time. And we wanted to keep that going because again, we were building leverage and his, and building his brand. So our thing was we wanted to make a splash when it was his, his time for debut album. We wanted to have a really big first week sales.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  So we, we decided to continue building and putting out free products.

• 54:24Guy Raz?

  What I'm trying to figure out is how did you get the word out? Like we've done, we've done interviews with like the founder of Glossier, the, the cosmetics brand. And she started with a, a beauty blog. And over time, she just, you know, she built a following. And then she introduced the brand of, of the products, the product line. And then we've, we've done episodes with like the founders of Instagram and how that was kind of a, a slow build. Like, how did you, how did people discover Logic's music? I mean, you just, you can't just put it out on the internet and hope people will find it, right?

• 54:53Speaker 02

  No, it was, it was, it was much more thoughtful and there was a strategy behind everything. I think what I did a lot is I watched, right? I, I would watch the way other artists would break and I would try and reverse engineer that and, and figure out, okay, this is really interesting. Uh, YouTube is an amazing tool at the time for being discovered because the way their algorithm worked and their sugge- suggested video algorithm, if you remember, and it's still there today, I think it's much different now on the right-hand side. If you'd be watching a certain video, a music video would suggest another artist, that's something that we took advantage of. I sat down with Logic, we would go through the project and I'd say, okay, let's identify

• 55:36Speaker 02

  four or five songs that we think are singles. And we'd shoot no-budget, low-budget, point-and-shoot music videos for those because that was, that was a way for us to, to get more attention to those songs. And as social media started to come out, paying attention to that, I remember the very early days of Snapchat was something that we took advantage of and Logic was on there and building, you know, a big audience on, on that platform. And then Instagram played a role and we tried to be first movers and on these platforms. Quick Logic did a great job at, you know, speaking directly to his audience.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  It's always about, sorry to cut you off, in like, taking something that's already been done and making it better. You know, I've, I've come, recently come out with this thing called Freestyle Fridays on my Instagram, where you essentially create a perfect loop of a song and it, it seems like it's a never-ending music video that doesn't stop. And I don't necessarily know of anybody who's done that, at least not on a mainstream platform, but it's like finding ways with something that already exists to put your own stamp on it and make people want it.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  And all that Freestyle Friday thing is, that's, it's just crowdsourcing.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Logic and I were just having a conversation, we came up with the idea, now we, we get to go and look at 15,000 comments and see what their opinion is on the song before we put it out. And we can decide, hey, is that something we want to put out? Should that make the album or not?

• 57:01Guy Raz?

  I mean, it sounds like you had a, you had this slow build from sort of 2000, well, for you, Logic, from 2009, but once you entered the picture, Chris, really, the first two years were, were, it sounds like they were, they were focused on building up, you know, the brand awareness, like, who is, making sure people knew who Logic was. So by the time you put out your first studio record in 2014, Under Pressure, that record, what, I think it debuted or went right to number four on the Billboard charts for, which is like, I mean, were you guys surprised by that? Were you shocked? Or did you think, yep, this is exactly as we planned it?

• 57:40Speaker 02

  We were devastated, actually. Yeah, no, I mean, I think we were legitimately devastated. For us, it was a number one album or bust, and-

• 57:54Guy Raz?

  Wait, that was a number four record on the Billboard charts? You, you were devastated that it wasn't number one?

• 58:00Speaker 02

  Devastated, because, and that was where, again, looking back, I think I could have done a better job, probably, at educating the record company and, and making them feel a little bit more involved in the early days as we were building still very much independently. Like, we were putting out these free albums and touring the country. At that point, I think he had gone on-

• 58:23Speaker 01

  I think you did a great job. I'm sorry to interrupt you, bro. You did an amazing job. And we were working with people who aren't at that company anymore, because it's like musical chairs, who didn't believe in your vision. And you, you know, you're talking about like, like communicating, bro. You did a fantastic job. And to say what, Chris, won't, they undershipped us. They didn't believe in us so much that they undershipped my album.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  And you had all these other huge artists with, you know, 400,000-plus CDs in stores. And I had fans going to Best Buys, having to have the workers there, go to the back and take it out of the box, because our label didn't believe in us enough to even buy shelf space. Not just new release shelf space, but shelf space. So I just have to say, you're the [bleep] man, bro, and you did your job.

• 59:08Guy Raz?

  But I have to say, I mean, it's, I mean, I mean, just- Well, but let's put some perspective on this for a sec. I mean, there are thousands of records that are released every single week around the world. Like, number four on the US Billboard charts, a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percentage of albums will ever get that high. That's a huge achievement. I mean, that, like, even if, OK, I believe you that you were sad it wasn't number one, but it sounds like you spent the first two years building up the awareness. And by the time that album came out, it was gonna, it was gonna sell a lot of records. Sold a half a million copies, I guess, eventually.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that was the first time that we proved to not only ourselves, because I didn't think we needed to, I think we understood it and we, we believed in and knew what we were building. But I think we proved to the business and really the world that what we had built, I think a lot of people viewed it as almost like building it in a vacuum. I remember having the conversations and being incredibly frustrated, you know, with the head of sales at the time at Def Jam, where he didn't understand, because he's like, hey, you have zero, you have never sold a song in the history of your career. And I'm like, that's accurate. But we had sold 100,000 tickets, an X number of dollars in merch.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  So that's gonna translate, because it's fans who are invested in him, right? It's the first time we're asking them, not even asking, we're putting out music for sale, if they're coming to shows and selling out rooms across the country, and we're selling out shows all over Europe, they're gonna buy an album for $7.99. To me, it was, that was the next logical step, is like, OK, it's just the natural progression of his career. Now he's a major label artist, and we're gonna sell music.

• 1:00:56Guy Raz?

  Logic, when you, when you perform, right, are you, do you feel like you're the same person? Do you feel like you're sort of a heightened version of yourself? Do you feel like you're almost embodying a character when you're, when you're on stage?

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Oh, man, what a... Yeah, I think I'm me at my purest form in a way.

• 1:01:17Guy Raz?

  Like the best version of you?

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, not even. I think the most vulnerable. I used to be so nervous if I would mess up a line or flub here or do this or do that. But then you gotta realize it's like, do you know how many lyrics are in my mind? Like, right now, one breath. Get down or lay down, hit you with the brevetta, you better stay down. Straight shots on the playground, living how I'm living with the life that I'm giving. Anybody just riding with me, I'm riding with them. Show me the enemy and I'ma hit him the second I bit him. I get him, I hit him with the venom, I don't need to pretend I'ma never do it. I knew what I'd already been through, and I'd do it for the street, for the fan, for the life. Anybody that's gang-related. Like, do you know how many times I had to mess that up to be able to do it like that?

• 1:01:49Guy Raz?

  Cannot imagine.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's like I was kicking myself. It wasn't good enough. I was Michael Jackson and after the show, I was Joe Jackson. Looking in the mirror like, how could you do this? And then I kinda started to realize like, yo, it ain't that deep, man. Like, and it was because I felt I was at a time where I needed to like prove myself. So, everything had to be perfect, but it's like, yo, if you hit one wrong key, bro, it ain't that deep. You know why? Because you have a sold-out arena at the Garden of people who, if you make a mistake, if anything, it makes them feel a further connection to you because they make mistakes, because we all make mistakes. So, it's definitely a heightened version, but a more vulnerable version.

• 1:02:31Guy Raz?

  You guys released, the second studio release was The Incredible True Story. That debuted at number three on the Billboard charts. Your third album, Everybody, debuts at number one. And I think a huge turning point in terms of like your mainstream popularity and maybe, I think it's fair to say superstardom, was the song 1-800-273-8255 that came out in 2017. How did that song come about?

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Oh, man, it's so crazy. So, earlier with the second album, we did a tour where, you know, we paid six figures for a tour bus for fans to go to their homes and surprise them and play them the second album before it was even out. And, you know, we ate dinner with these people and met their families and their friends. And I heard about their hopes and dreams and hard times and happy times. And the biggest thing... That I heard, you know, when they would talk about my music, they're like, yeah, dude, I love your music. Like, it's, it goes without saying, like, you make great music. And I'm like, wow, well, thank you. But they're like, but that's not it. The reason I love you, like, Logic and your brand and what you represent is because of

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  the message. You know, there's people who are like, you know, you've saved my life. Your music has saved my life. And I, after that, I thought about it for a long time. And I was like, yo, I didn't even try to do that. And I actually have the power to do that. Could you imagine what that would be like? And, and, and so when I, when I wrote it, I knew it had to be simple, man. It had to be, and it just came. It just was, we were just in the studio and I, I had the hook and I, I sang it and then I did the verse. And then I knew in my heart, I was like, man, I need other people on this. And I need other young influential people, um, you know, that can, can help get this message out. Mind you, I'm not in the studio like, yo, this song about killing

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  yourself is about to be a banging number one. Like, no, like, no way. None, nobody, I don't care. Nobody saw that. Like, nobody saw that. And, and, and it was Chris who had the idea to make it 1-800-275, you know, and, and really give it the, the whole number because then we could reach people and give them that platform.

• 1:04:47Guy Raz?

  And that number, the name of the song, 1-800-273-8255, that is the telephone number for the National Suicide Prevention Hotline, which is, I mean, wow, like, you could have called that song, I Wanna Be Alive, or something else. And you, by giving it that title of the phone number, it was like, it was just super powerful. And did you, did you know that?

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  You know, hindsight's like 2020.

• 1:05:27Guy Raz?

  Sure.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  We could sit here now and be like, oh, of course it could have been. But like, no, like especially with what was on the radio. I mean, it's glorification and we knew it was a great song. And it's funny because then the song comes out and you got people like, well, of course it's gonna do well. Because and it's like, get out of here, man. We had no, we had no clue.

• 1:05:43Guy Raz?

  Did you, um, I mean, I, I, I understand that you were singing on that record from different perspectives of sort of embodying different voices. But, um, did you ever feel that way? Did you ever, were you ever suicidal in your life?

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Here's the crazy thing. I've never thought, uh, I've thought about killing myself. I've, you know, I've thought about punching a cash register. These are intrusive thoughts that just happen. We're human, like they, they happen.

• 1:06:08Guy Raz?

  Sure.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  It wasn't until I was like, I experienced true depression and didn't even know I was depressed. While I was touring and working that song. Because everywhere I was going, it's suicide, suicide, suicide. Talk about killing yourself. Talk about this, let's, let's talk about this. Oh, death, death, death. And I mean, can you imagine doing a solid year of talking about killing yourself? Even if you weren't, like talking about killing yourself in particular as the artist singing the song. But it's like, yo, and that is, is crazy. And going from like, I'd given up on trying to get a hit record. And I remember telling Chris before that album, I was like, I'm done. I don't want to do it. I was always like in the studio trying to make hits. That doesn't mean I wasn't trying to make something from the heart. But it's like, man, I wanted to be Drake and Rick Ross and this. I wanted to be that popular guy too.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  And when I gave up, I ended up making the song that did it. And then I kind of was like, whoa, man, like I love this. I love being in the spotlight and being in the spotlight for a positive message. But I just worked it and worked it and grinded and did it so much while I was waking up every day. And I wasn't happy going on stage.

• 1:07:12Guy Raz?

  And I guess at the end of that, sort of towards the end of that just long stretch of touring, this is in, in sort of the fall of 2017. You actually had a breakdown like on a concert. What, what happened? This is in Pittsburgh. What, what happened?

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy, man. So I'm backstage throwing up before I'm going on. I'm malnourished, I'm completely unhealthy, uh, you know.

• 1:07:31Guy Raz?

  Were you nervous or was it just?

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  No, I wasn't nervous. No. I was like, you feel like you're out of your body. Like you, you, you feel like, like a little person in your brain, kinda like, you, you take a swig of water and you're like, wait, did I, did I actually drink that water right now? And what, what I've come to realize, I think it's a hope, a, a hyper-analization of, uh, the world around you in real time. And, and, and that was really hard. So I'm going through all this and, you know, won't really get too much into it. But obviously I was dealing with like, relationship issues and I'm trying to manage a, a company and my business and make albums and go on tours and, and there was a time where I was even like, like I love Chris, he's my partner. And I wanna like, quit, not quit rap or that, but I just, I just wanna run away, but I can't. Cause we got multi-million dollar deals on the table.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  And if I don't do this, then it's all gonna crumble. And he's sacrificed his life for me. I'm up here, it's all the weight is on my shoulders. I can't, I can't, I can't do this, I can't do that to him, I can't. And then I start realizing I'm, I'm doing shows for other people, not just him, for myself and for my, my future family. And I have to stack this money for my children and I've come from nothing. And if I don't do this, it could go away and they like me now, but then they might not later. And I go on Instagram and it's, you suck and you're terrible and you're going bald and you're white and you're, you can't rap and you're horrible, you're a disgrace to hip hop. And what is this 1-800, I liked you better when you rap like this. And somebody's like, well, I like this and you don't like, and your mind is going crazy. And you step on stage and you don't wanna be there after nine months.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  I mean, think about nine months on the road, nine months of hotels, nine months of, of dark places and behind the scenes and this and, and I'm hu, I'm a human being. And that's something that a lot of people don't understand. Fame be like, fame is crazy. And, and, and that's what that was. And I didn't go home and shoot guns and rob this and do, and just like, no, I went home. And I said, I'm gonna go see my therapist, who I see regularly. I'm gonna drink a lot of water, I'm gonna work out, I'm gonna eat better. And I realized that my goals have changed, you know? It's like, it's not about money anymore. It's about, it's about happiness. Why go do a show just cause it's gonna make me $500,000 in an hour on stage?

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Like, that's great, but if I'm not there, I should want to be on that stage. And now I do, I wanna be on that stage, cause I've taken that time.

• 1:09:51Guy Raz?

  Chris, how did you, how did you? Deal with with logic's anxiety and exhaustion and you know that what happened in Pittsburgh like that that wasn't just a I mean, obviously, that was an expression of things that were probably building up over a long time. How did you cope with it? And what did you do?

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  I mean, I immediately, you kind of put on the friend hat, right? Because that's what makes this relationship and specials that, again, you genuinely care about him. So for me, it was a lot of questions about, hey, how can I make you feel better? And what can I change? What can we do differently to make sure something like this doesn't happen again? And we learned a lot from it, I think, both him and I, on how to move forward and conduct the business and operate on a daily basis, even. It kind of changed a lot of the things we did from just daily communication to what we say yes to, to what we say no

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  to. And I think we're better for it. I think he'll say the same thing. And I think we're going to be much more successful moving forward. And it's because we got through that, and it allowed us to to grow.

• 1:11:10Guy Raz?

  So when I think about the business that you guys have created, I'm curious about where it goes from here. Like, I think about, like, if I'm an investor, right? And and I go to Jay-Z or to Kanye West, like, I could buy their company outright, and Jay-Z could leave the picture because there's still like, an investment arm, and there's a label, and there's other things that, at this point, you don't necessarily need Jay-Z. The business can thrive. Right now, you have a business around your brand, whether it's performing, or selling merchandise, or the tour, or writing books, or acting. And all of those are are great, but they all require you to constantly stay on the hamster wheel. Did you get do

• 1:11:54Guy Raz?

  you ever, both of you, do you ever sort of think about, how do we build something for the future that may not require both of us? That can just be a business? That is even bigger than than the two of us.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Well, one, I think Chris has already done that in Visionary Music Group and the partnerships that he has. But I won't speak for you, I'll let you say that. But even so, I have a record label and we're both equal partners on that that we run together called Elysium with artists that I've signed, that we believe in, that will go out and essentially make us money, you know, by killing it. So it's those businesses, and I think that mind state, like I have a production company and I haven't really discussed it too much, but it's called Bobby Boy, and these are the things I'm doing my films through. And, yeah, exactly. And so imagine like if I have this production company and I write a script and somebody else takes the wheel.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  So I am looking at the future through still being creative, but more so behind the scenes because I have a fan base that wants any product I am willing to give them as long as they are familiar with where it is coming from. So how about you, Chris? What do you think?

• 1:13:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the brand logic, there's a lot of equity in that now. And, you know, I'm growing my business and have used my experience and I think some of the relationships. And most importantly, I think the knowledge and experience that I've been able to gain while building Logic's career right next to him. I've recently took on a handful more clients. I think I have seven management clients right now. I just did a joint venture label with Sony Music, which I'm very, very excited about. So, yeah, there's a lot of things to look forward to and...

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  But one thing I will say, though, is we kind of didn't answer his question. And the question was, what do we have? So kind of, because we have these artists, you have these artists, we have these artists that are doing things for us. I can't speak for Chris. I like to think I can when I say this. You said, you know, that we're always on, the hamster wheel is always going. The truth is, my brain is a hamster wheel. It does not stop, and that's how I live. So I have to be involved somewhere. If I'm not involved, I trust no one with my money, with my company, with my this, with my that, if I'm not involved. Like, I trust Chris with my life, but I'm not just gonna be like, just go take it. Not because I don't trust him, but because I don't work that way. I need to know how you cook the fries at McDonald's, who sweeps the floors, who flips the burgers,

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  the exact time to flip the burgers, this, this, that, that, even if I'm sitting all the way on the 57th floor in the CEO chair, I need to know.

• 1:14:38Guy Raz?

  So this is a question that I ask everybody who comes on the show, and of course, I'm gonna ask both of you, and first to you, Chris, when you think about the journey that you've taken, you know, 20-year-old, no experience, like pitching this guy logic to where you are now, like, how much of that do you attribute to just really hard work and intelligence and skill, and how much of that do you attribute to luck?

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  I think it's probably somewhere in the middle between the both. You know, I look back, you know, at my life, and I think being, you know, raised by my parents played a large role in who I am as a person today and instilling confidence in me, how serendipity played such a role in me discovering who logic was. I told the story, if I hadn't been sitting at my computer at that very moment to click that YouTube link and see the video of logic, I don't think we'd be sitting here today. But there's a large, large portion of that where, you know, it just takes an almost unimaginable amount of hard work and perseverance because of every roadblock and every door that's

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  closed to figure out a way to get through it. I think it lives somewhere in the middle. I think my journey, I would, I would probably have one foot in hard work and intelligence and grind and hustle and one foot in pure and simple luck.

• 1:16:03Guy Raz?

  Logic?

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think in the beginning, it's a lot of luck, right? Because if, without that luck, you wouldn't even be blessed enough to be in those positions in those situations. You know what's really funny? I can't speak for other famous people, celebrities, musicians, whatever, but I can tell you, like, no one knows how hard I work and until you, how hard we can work. And I pay out over a million dollars in salary to my employees a year. This is a real, real company and hard work, man.

• 1:16:37Guy Raz?

  You work hard every mother effing day.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  I work hard every mother effing day. We work hard every mother effing day.

• 1:16:44Guy Raz?

  That's Logic, AKA Bobby Tarantino, AKA Young Sinatra, AKA Sir Robert Bryson Hall II, and Chris Zarou, founder of Visionary Music Group. Despite the success of Logic's music, the two of them are relying on an old business strategy to keep the business relevant: diversification. Like, a few years back,

• 1:17:25Guy Raz?

  Logic published a novel, a psychological thriller, called "Supermarket." He also just released another book, a memoir, called "This Bright Future." And for the past few years, he's been working on a project with filmmaker J.J. Abrams. And Chris, as he mentioned, he launched a joint venture with Sony a few years back and built a brand-new label for discovering new talent. And the label is called, what else? Visionary Records. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you are not yet a subscriber, please do subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to write to us, our email address is [email protected]. To find us on Twitter, it's @HowIBuiltThis

• 1:18:06Guy Raz?

  or @GuyRaz. And on Instagram, it's @HowIBuiltThisNPR or @Guy.Raz. This episode was produced by James Delahoussaye, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Niba Grant, with research help from Mia Benkac. Our production staff includes Casey Herman, Rachel Faulkner, J.C. Howard, Julia Carney, Elaine Coats, Farah Safari, Liz Metzger, and Annalise Ober. Our intern is Harrison B.J. Choi, and Jeff Rogers is our executive producer. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This. This is NPR.