Sadiq Khan: Why Are Police Officers Attacking Women? How Safe Are We REALLY?

From sharing a Tooting council flat with 9 other family members to shaping the lives of 9 million people as the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan knows where ambition can take you. He also knows what the responsibility to his city has cost him, affecting all the other most important responsibilities in his life, from his mental health, his faith and even the safety of his family. Discussing everything from Donald Trump to responding to terrorist attacks, this is a landmark conversation, that breaks through all the usual smoke and mirrors of politics and takes a honest look at the person behind the power. Sadiq: Instagram - https://bit.ly/3j7Mehi Twitter - https://bit.ly/3j7ZXou Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Let's be frank, Donald Trump was obsessed with me. The mayor of London wasn't somebody of my background, my faith. He wouldn't have responded the way he did, would he?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, is the first Muslim mayor. Has made some powerful opponents.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  The new image of Britain's multicultural society. The mayor is with us.

• 0:17Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think London's safe?

• 0:18Speaker 00

  Uh, well, we've reduced homicides, life crime, drug crime.

• 0:22Steven Bartlett?

  I don't think people feel safe in London.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  I'm not excusing it, I'm explaining it. That's a consequences.

• 0:27Steven Bartlett?

  There's been a lot of instances of police officers who have attacked, raped women and girls on the streets of London. What are you doing about that?

• 0:35Speaker 00

  We're doing it now.

• 0:36Steven Bartlett?

  How?

• 0:37Speaker 00

  I'm being criticised for this.

• 0:39Steven Bartlett?

  Since you were elected mayor, what are the things you look at and go, do you know what? I failed there.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  Well, that's a good question, but I'm running for reelection in 467 days' time. I'm not going to answer that question honestly because the odds are going to be against me.

• 0:50Steven Bartlett?

  You can't tell the truth because someone might use it against you?

• 0:53Speaker 00

  I think most MPs have got to be inauthentic. I tell you why, because...

• 0:58Steven Bartlett?

  What's been your hardest day as London mayor?

• 1:00Speaker 00

  There's been a few.

• 1:01Steven Bartlett?

  At least 58 people were killed in the fire at Grenfell Tower.

• 1:06Speaker 00

  I still remember the images, I still remember the heat. One family, six people wiped out. And a number of terror attacks in London. London Bridge, Westminster Bridge, Finsbury Park. I went to a lot of funerals. That summer was hard.

• 1:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31Steven Bartlett?

  Sadiq, give me your context. I spent a long time reading through your backstory and I think it's an especially important place to start because it appears to be much of your, your reason for being and your reason for doing. So can you take me right back? I want to hear about Pakistan. I want to hear about your, your earliest years in London.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  Sure. So firstly, it's a pleasure to, to be on this, Stephen. Can I just say two things before we start? It's not maybe been a sick event and please don't think I'm being patronising. But firstly, I think you realise that you're a massive role model to so many Londoners and there are people that you will never meet. Who you've had an impact on. And so thank you firstly for that. And I meet people that you don't meet, who, when I say who's your own models, and I pray you in aid to give examples of the hard work you do. So, so thank you for that. But secondly, congratulations. It's always lovely to meet somebody who's incredibly successful. Who's normal. So my, my, my, my family's story is quite complicated.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  My grandparents and great grandparents were in India, both on my mum's side and my dad's side.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  And the story of India is India was part of the British Empire. And the short version of the long story is in nineteen forty seven, the British decided to give up India and partition India. I don't want to go into divide and rule and stuff, but there'd been sectarian violence now between Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus. And a Muslim in India wasn't safe. Just like a Sikh and Hindu, generally speaking, in West Pakistan and East Pakistan weren't safe. Why? Because these countries were going to be ostensibly Muslim and the Middle India ostensibly Hindu and Sikh. So my grandparents and great grandparents left everything behind, everything behind. So my parents had experienced being immigrants once already, right? From India to Pakistan and they had a comfortable life in Pakistan, middle class, upper middle class.

• 3:31Speaker 00

  My dad decided he was in the Pakistani air force. He went first to Australia.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  And if any Australians watching this, this is no aspersion on your country. It's a great country, right? He didn't really like Australia. And so when he went, when he went back to Pakistan, he didn't want to go to Australia to live. And he came to London and he made London his home. And this is a London which, yes, when he first came, there were signs saying, you know, no blacks, no Irish, no dogs, by blacks, anybody who wasn't white. And when I compare my mum and dad who travelled, you know, three, four thousand miles, learnt a new language, learnt a new culture, raised a family. I was born in Tooton in St George's Hospital. I first lived a mile up the road in the Hendrick Prince Estate, under councillor's estate. My parents moved a mile the other way afterwards when my dad managed to save a deposit for a house.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  And I now live a mile and a half from where I was born. So I've literally gone up a mile radius, right, from where I was born. Yeah, my grandparents and my parents had this huge strife and travelled all this way. So I'll be the first Khan in three generations and not to be a migrant because I'm I'm staying here.

• 4:37Steven Bartlett?

  That whole experience, growing up in a house of ten, ten people, eight siblings in total, um, in a, in a council house.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  Flat, flat, yeah.

• 4:47Steven Bartlett?

  Council flat.

• 4:49Steven Bartlett?

  The, the immigrant story you've told there, watching your parents struggle to provide for both of, for all of you.

• 4:59Steven Bartlett?

  What imprint has that left on you when you look back and go, that's why I am the way that I am? That's, it's really, I'm really trying to get at the real defining attributes, the things that make city different from the, the average person on the street. The work ethic, the, but you know, um, and with that, I also want to know, you know, one of my guests on this podcast that was the coach for Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant said that we all have a dark side. And much of our dark side is, can be attributed to the thing that makes us quote unquote, great.

• 5:29Speaker 00

  You've seen The Last Dance?

• 5:31Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, oh god, it's one of my favourite films, upstairs in the wall.

• 5:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, so, um, so I, I think you tend to mirror, emulate.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  And be like those you're around. You copy their mannerisms, their behaviours and so forth. And I, I, I was raised in a family where we felt incredibly privileged. My mum and dad both made sure we understood that this privilege meant we're a responsibility to, you know, listen to your teachers at school, to work hard.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  And, you know, to, to, you know, not be a shirker basically. And so, you know, all of us, not just had a really good work ethic, work ethic, still do. All of us also, it's interesting, I just think about this the other night. I've given something back, whether it's coaching in boxing, or whether it's, you know, volunteering at a swimming club, whether it's, you know, politics or whatever. Because that came from our parents, what we saw in relation, and also what we saw was going on the estate and what our friends were doing and stuff. And, you know, and the interesting thing about our estate was everyone worked, all the dads worked, most of the mums had a job. And, you know, there was a work ethic and a sense of community. I'm not pretending it was brilliant, you know, the roasting of glasses and stuff. But yeah,

• 6:50Speaker 00

  so, you know, my wife often, you know, jokes that, you know, I can't sit around doing nothing. I've always got to be doing something because I always saw my dad doing something. Even if it meant on the odd day he'd have off, he'd take us to museums, take us to galleries, go out on a tour of London, go to Hyde Park. So, so there was no, there was no time for doing nothing. And so it's really, and so it's hard for me to actually spend downtime, go to the theatre, just do leisure, or, you know, read a book for, for the sake of reading a book and stuff. Because, you know, they were go-getters.

• 7:23Steven Bartlett?

  I, I saw that throughout your story. And I heard it from some of your colleagues as well that, and I also heard you say it, in fact, in one interview where you said that you worked seven days a week. That's not very healthy, is it?

• 7:37Speaker 00

  Yes and no. So, I'm very lucky, I'm privileged, I'm Mayor London. I had a meeting last week with my staff, my main, my sort of top staff. And I said to them last week, listen, I've got to reply for my job at the next election. In this term, we have 475 days left. That's now down to 467 days left at the time we're recording this. We've got to work on the basis that there is a possibility, I'll try my best that it doesn't happen. There's a possibility I will not be re-elected, but I'll reply for my job. London will say no. We've got to use every single day we have left, every hour we have left to make sure we maximise

• 8:22Speaker 00

  the living for our city, to make it safer, to make it fairer, to make it greener, to make it more prosperous. We can't afford to waste this time. It's a privilege. It's a privilege to.

• 8:30Steven Bartlett?

  What about you, though, and your and your family and all the other things that make life, you know, worth living? It's not just work, right?

• 8:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, but but some of the stuff I do is work without being work. I'll give you an example. So I might go and support

• 8:46Speaker 00

  a theatre production. My support is going along to watch it and they can then amplify it. I've been there, right? But it's a great night out for for for wife and I, or I might do same with with my daughters and stuff. You know, but I recognise that my my wife and daughters and my mum and my brothers and sisters and my in-laws

• 9:06Speaker 00

  have made sacrifices by me doing my job, you know, and I'm cognizant of that and I'm grateful for that. You can't do the job that I'm doing without the support of your family. By the way, you can also do this job. I work three days a week. The previous guy did that, right? You can do that, right? But he may not have felt privileged to do the job. I think it's a privilege. And I remember when I was in government. And I remember in two thousand and ten, the last year, I sat around the cabinet with, you know, Gordon Brown and the team. And I think there were some incredibly talented people around that cabinet in the prime of their game. Some incredibly talented special advisers in the prime of their game.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  We lost the general election and their peak years, they're not in government. They're not advised in the government. Had I known in two thousand and five, when I first became an MP, and had, you know, Tony and Gordon sat down with three hundred plus MPs and said, listen, we've got to maximise these five years between two thousand and five, two thousand and ten. I think things would maybe have been different because we'd have realised it's a privilege. We've got to use every day we have, you know. And so I'm not criticising Tony and Gordon, but I'm saying you don't know how long you've got your job, right? And so my view is you make the most of it. It's time to rest later on.

• 10:24Steven Bartlett?

  That's also not guaranteed though, right?

• 10:27Speaker 00

  Well, you know.

• 10:27Steven Bartlett?

  In terms of life generally.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you know, I love my job. I've been lucky to have three big jobs. I was a lawyer for 11 years. Loved it. Loved being a lawyer. I was a parliamentarian and a minister for 11 years. Loved it. And I'm now the mayor. I've been the mayor for the last six and a half years. And so if you're lucky enough to have a job you love and your family supportive, you've got to have a supportive family. My wife is so supportive. She's not just an incredible chade. She gives me good advice. She pulls me up, you know, when I bring the arrogance home or I have delusions of grandeur. You know, she makes sure I put the bins out. She makes sure that I'm doing my bit, helping up, cleaning it up and stuff. You need that at home. That sort of, you need that sense of normality at home. My daughters, geez, I mean, you know, there's no Aes Graces in my house. They're both back home now to finish university. They're both working.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  And so they're supportive. They support what I'm doing. Then I'm here.

• 11:18Steven Bartlett?

  If I spoke to your wife and I said to her, I said, what annoys you about Sadiq? Because I could tell you what my girlfriend would say in a heartbeat.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  She'd say, Stephen, it's just an hour and a half. How long have you got? And it's a long list. I'm sure there's a long list and stuff. I mean, I think, I think.

• 11:33Steven Bartlett?

  Because people don't get to see that, the impact that being a politician has on the family at home. Now, this is one of the things I'm super interested in with all my guests is

• 11:41Steven Bartlett?

  how that then impacts all the people we don't get to see.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, that's right. So what I did at early stage was I involved my office. So my team in my office, a lot of them are now my best friends. I've worked with them so long.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  They know my, they know Sadia and they know the kids. So, simple things, you know, my team will send Sadia in my diary for the week in advance. So Sadia does what I'm doing. The nights I'm out, the nights I'm in, which things she'll be coming along to. And so the family's involved in that. At home, we have, you know, on the fridge, which tells us who's at home for walking Luna and so forth. And so we've got, it only works when you share what you're doing and stuff. My wife's got her own, she's got two jobs herself. So it only works if, you know, everyone's on the same page. It does not work. And a lot of my friends in politics, marriage breakups. A lot of my friends in the law, marriage breakups, you know, all the sorts of problems and stuff. So you've got to have not just somebody who,

• 12:40Speaker 00

  you know, is supportive of you doing it, but is an active player in you doing it. And you've got to make sure that parts of your work life are shared with your home life. There's a couple of conditions we have at home.

• 12:51Steven Bartlett?

  What is the biggest friction though, that's the question.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  So I mean, we don't have much friction at home. I mean, work life balance is an issue. You know, me missing another family event or me not being able to go to

• 13:03Speaker 00

  distant friends or relations, social event, but we don't really do friction. I'm trying, you know, trying to think that the last time we had. Yeah, it's diary management. So last Saturday, for example, I was doing something for work. And then I promised to go to, you know, passing Eastbourne, an anniversary party of a friend and, you know, and then do something back in London on Sunday. So. Managing that with negotiating that with my wife and my daughters was was quite was quite a feat.

• 13:30Steven Bartlett?

  You mentioned you're a lawyer for just just more than a decade. I'm always, I'm always, I think the word is skeptical. I said this to Matt Hancock when I spoke to him about like why politicians become politicians.

• 13:45Steven Bartlett?

  You had a great job, you know, paid a lot of money. You made the decision to to quit that job very abruptly and go into politics and become ultimately a Labour MP.

• 13:58Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 13:59Speaker 00

  So so the the sort of the qualification to to that question, you're right, by the way, that's all right, is it was the MP for Tooting.

• 14:07Steven Bartlett?

  Yep.

• 14:07Speaker 00

  So what I wasn't going to do was give up my legal career. And by the way, it was it wasn't just a great little career, but a great future ahead of me because, you know, it's just the two of us around the business, very profitable, gone from being, you know, a business, we're just employing eight people to more than fifty when I was a partner. But the opportunity came to be the MP for Tooting. Tooting I was born and raised in, literally. The MP for Tooting, a guy called Tom Cox, had been the MP my entire life. I'd never known any other MP. I'd never been inside the Chamber of Parliament. I didn't know any friends who were MPs. I didn't really know any friends in politics, I don't think. I was a councillor in my spare time, looking, you know, serving the local community.

• 14:48Speaker 00

  As a lawyer, in my spare time, I was in my spare time, I was Chair of Liberty, Human Rights Group, you know, Chair of Legal Action Group, a legal aid charity group. But the opportunity came to be the MP for Tooting and, you know, I couldn't say no.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  Because, you know, it was the chance to represent my community in Parliament. And the way I described it at the time, because people were saying to me, what are you doing? Why? It doesn't make sense. Was, you know, I was blessed to have a good legal career. And if I won a case for my client. He or she benefited, or if I settled a case. If the case went to one of the higher courts, we'd set a precedent. Setting a precedent means that other people benefit from the precedent of the case because you've changed the law. And that's a big deal and, you know, I was blessed to do that. But when you're in parliament and you're part of the government, you can pass legislation or amend legislation that affects millions of people. So not just people in Tootin, but people across our city and our country.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  And being the MP for Tootin was why I came up with your career, not to be an MP for MP's sake, to be the MP for Tootin.

• 15:54Steven Bartlett?

  Why does that matter to you, helping millions of people?

• 15:56Speaker 00

  It's my, it's, it's, it's public service, right? It's, it's the, the ability to impact and improve people's lives. I could have, you know, when I left, when I left law school, got and worked in the city and, and, you know, been a city lawyer. But I chose to do the law that I chose to do for a variety of reasons. You know, it's important for me to be a lawyer practicing, you know, discrimination law, you know, issues around police misconduct, issues around employment law, doing litigation, the sort of cases that I, that I undertook. What motivated me was this issue of action on behalf of the underdog, being the advocate for people I grew up with who were routinely, you know, the wrong end of the Suss Law, stop and search, people I knew who were unfairly dismissed, people who, you know, I was aware

• 16:39Speaker 00

  who were being discriminated against, you know, acting for the victims of miscarriages of justice. That was important to me.

• 16:48Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 16:50Speaker 00

  A number of reasons. My inspiration for being a lawyer is, have you read To Kill a Mockingbird?

• 16:56Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  I wanted to be Atticus Finch, right? We, you know, we wanted to be Atticus Finch. And then, and then when I watched, when I was growing up, this, this programme on TV, you're too young to remember it, called LA Law. I wanted to be this lawyer called Thuen, as Jimmy Smith played this lawyer who was doing these really good cases. But also, I remember a number of things happened around that time where I felt helpless. Uh, you know, the way my dad was treated in his bus garage, the bus garage was closing down, felt helpless, we couldn't do anything about it, you know, going into a march is fine, but you need to challenge this in the courts if you could. If you couldn't use the court system, you've got to change the laws. You know, seeing friends treated the way they were, and I thought it's not wrong, that there's no way of helping, you know, people who need help. And being a lawyer is a noble thing. I know people, I know lawyers

• 17:40Speaker 00

  get a bad, bad rep, you know, some lawyers do earn a lot of money. But people who do the law that I was doing, you know, don't earn a lot of money. Some do, and I was very lucky to do well. But it's important to me, public service, to act on behalf of these people. Who acts on behalf of the person who's the recipient of police misconduct? Who acts on behalf of the person who's, you know, discriminated on the grounds of their race or gender in the workplace?

• 18:06Steven Bartlett?

  So what I got from that is, your dad was, I'm trying to understand the personal reasons why you chose that path, which is like, you know, like, we've all chosen our paths for interesting reasons. I think a lot of my path was defined by my own insecurities as a kid. What I've heard there is your, the thing about your dad's bus depot being shut down?

• 18:24Speaker 00

  Bus garage, yeah.

• 18:25Steven Bartlett?

  Bus garage. And then there was some of your friends in your life had experienced certain types of abuse that were because of their race or, but also mistreatment by the police. That was your, like, personal motivation?

• 18:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. So, so those are my experiences. My experience growing up was that, you know, actually, life isn't always fair. And you need somebody to be there to help you. And it's never been about, you know, it sounds, you know, frankly speaking, a bit, you know, wankerish, but it's never been about yourself making money. None of my siblings have, you know, following, followed paths, which is interesting, actually. None of us have followed paths where it's been about, you know, making money for money's sake. It's about doing a job we enjoy, and trying to give something back where you can, whether it's being a teacher, whether it's being, you know, a coach or whatever.

• 19:14Steven Bartlett?

  Over the last 10 years, in your own view, which direction do you think London has gone in as, in terms of like, safety and in terms of desirability and in terms of world influence over the last, let's say, 10 years? Because it's, I think it's my view that it's, it's, it's probably gone in a negative direction in terms of like, influence, safety.

• 19:40Steven Bartlett?

  And yeah, I think generally like the respect of the of the capital. And I think a number of factors have contributed to that. Obviously, the pandemic has been a big one. But then I think generally the knife crime issue and the safety issues. And these are all things influenced by biases, right? Because I was, when I moved to London, I was burgled really badly. Three AM in the morning, came in my house, stole everything. We never heard anything back from the police. There was no interest in in helping us. So but just generally, I've lived in other parts of the world.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, sure, sure.

• 20:08Steven Bartlett?

  You know, lived in the Middle East, lived in, spent time in Dubai, lived in New York for many, many years. New York's not necessarily safe at all, but other parts of the world seem to be much safer. And it's funny because when I speak to some of my friends who've been successful in business and they talk about why they're leaving the UK. It's one of the top three reasons is always safety. It's always I don't feel safe in London. And before I, before, before, before we had this, had this conversation, I was listening to Amir Khan talk about him being robbed on the high street in London, coming out of a restaurant at gunpoint. You see the footballers, the Arsenal players all being robbed at knife point on mopeds. My girlfriend had her phone snatched out of her hand while walking, you know, and you just think, oh, God, it's not safe to be in London.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  First is, I'm really sorry about your experience and I wasn't too distressed. So so if you look at London over the last ten years, the last twenty years even. If you park Brexit for a second, because we can come back to that in relation to the impact of Brexit on London. London is a global city. You know, I don't want to go to various metrics, but it's, we're doing incredibly well as a global city in relation to foreign direct investment, in relation to the diversity of people coming to London, in relation to, you know, the tourism to London, in relation to retention of talent, in relation to the diversity of our economy. It's not just financial services, professional services, legal services, life sciences, higher education, culture, tech, so forth.

• 21:37Speaker 00

  So the underlying strengths are still there and we are doing incredibly well. We punch well above our weight in relation to the rest of the country. Because of how well we're doing, we contribute roughly speaking every year net to the Treasury at forty two billion pounds and it's been going up over the period of time. So we, you know, as a slice of the national pie, contribute far more than we're supposed to, bear in mind the size of our city. And that's because we've managed to attract talent and keep talent.

• 22:03Steven Bartlett?

  That's why I'm here.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:04Steven Bartlett?

  But the reason why I might go is because it's.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  Well, let me come to the second. And so, and so one of the challenges we've had post Brexit is to keep that talent here and we can talk about some of the stuff we've done to keep it. Relation to safety, it is a fact and I, and I, and I'm really sorry for, for your experience. Genuinely, Stephen, because I meet too many people like you being the victims of crime. But I'm afraid the bad news is since two thousand and twelve and nationally two thousand and thirteen, serious violence has been going up since two thousand and thirteen across our country, including London. London is not separate from the rest of the country in feeling the impact. Now, without excusing criminality, and I'm not excusing those people who burgled your house, by the way, and I'm not saying this with their motivation. But there is a link between, and crime is complex causes, by the way, without excusing it, you know.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  And I believe very simply you've got to deal with it in two ways. One is to be tough on crime, more policing, give them the support they need to, to make sure they deal with the criminals. I call it a public health approach and I come to that to explain what I mean. And tougher the complex causes of crime in relation to dealing with underlying causes, deprivation, poverty, alienation, inequality and so forth. You can't escape the fact that since two thousand and ten, we've had massive austerity in this country. So there have been twenty one thousand fuel police officers across the country in the last twelve years. That is a fact. We've got youth clubs that have closed down, youth centers closed down, after school clubs not taking place, weekly clubs not taking place. Unemployment's gone high until very recently and so forth. I'm not excusing it, I'm explaining it.

• 23:35Speaker 00

  And so, you know, when I became mayor, one of the things I promised Londoners I would do is to be straight with Londoners about the problems. In relation to, I was quite clear straight away saying, listen, these cuts have consequences and we've got to recognise there are consequences. So I'm going to use the limited powers I have and raise council tax.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  That's one lever to bring money in and use it to pay for more police officers. And I was criticized for doing so, but I had to do it because of your experience was one I'd heard too many times before. So we've paid for thirteen hundred more officers, not enough, but it's what all I can do. There's a limit how much you can raise council tax to, it's a regressive tax. But also use business rates money to open up youth clubs again, youth centres, employ youth workers, have summer schemes. We have now thirty two thousand mentors, we're going to get to a hundred thousand over the next two, three years. Mentors are crucial in my view. And the good news, I'm not complacent at all, and Amir Khan's experience was also awful. Was the good news is we have bucked the national trend.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  So across the country homicides are going up, in London they're going down. We've reduced homicides, knife crime, gun crime, teenage homicides, burglary since I became mayor. Nowhere near low enough. Because we've got to invest more in the police and invest more in the causes of crime. And when I talk about a public health approach, Stephen, what I mean by that is this. Think of crime as you would a public health issue, what would you do? You deal with the infection, you've got to cure the infection, right? More police officers, you know, got to arrest people. You've got to stop the infection spreading, really important, we stop, you know, the crime spreading. People thinking that you can be successful by being a criminal, we've got to stop it, deal with the gangs, so forth.

• 25:21Speaker 00

  But stop the infection occurring in the first place, stop the crime occurring in the first place. And, you know, it's a source of pride to me. We've not made the progress, but our policies, being tough on crime, invested in the police, and we are reforming the police at the same time. But also invested in young people is leading to the turnaround in London. And we've bucked the national trend in London. And as a global city, sorry, as a global city, you speak to, as I do regularly, the Mayor of New York, the Mayor of Chicago, the Mayor of LA. Those are our comparators with respect, not. Do you know what it is, I just, I would just like to feel really safe.

• 25:57Steven Bartlett?

  And I, when I go to other places, if you go to somewhere in the Middle East or Dubai or whatever it might be, you feel exceptionally safe, you know. So, to be honest, I went to Indonesia, I was in Indonesia a couple of weeks ago, I was in Bali. I said to my girlfriend, I said, you could leave, you could leave your wallet on the floor here and it would still be there an hour later when you come back. You do that in London. You know, not only have you lost your wallet, you probably come back, you've lost your shoes or something, you know, like, and I just-

• 26:20Speaker 00

  There's all sorts of great charity generosity and, you know, Londoners aren't quite, all quite like that, Stephen, to be fair.

• 26:25Steven Bartlett?

  I don't think they feel safe. I don't think people feel safe in London.

• 26:28Speaker 00

  No, no, and more so if you're a woman or a girl. If you think you don't feel safe, one of the big challenges that we've got is making sure that women and girls feel safe.

• 26:34Steven Bartlett?

  Is this all solvable, in your view?

• 26:36Speaker 00

  Without a doubt. We saw in the-

• 26:37Steven Bartlett?

  How?

• 26:38Speaker 00

  We saw in the two thousands, you know, between nineteen ninety seven and, you know, the mid noughties, huge progress made in reducing crime. And it was dealing with the two things that I said, you've got to be tough on crime, tough on the causes, you've got to invest in policing, but also invest in dealing with the causes of policing. It definitely is solvable. We've made progress in the past. We're making progress in London now. We've got to make sure at the same time, of course, you know, we reform the police, we'll publicise issues in policing. Londoners have got to be the eyes and the ears. There are some amazing citizens in London who, you know, would return the wallet to you, you know, if you left it, if you'd lost it or left it around in London, will report something taking place, will come forward if they're a witness of crime, will come

• 27:23Speaker 00

  forward and support the police that are a victim of crime, will join the police service. These problems are definitely solvable. We've done it in the past, we're doing it now. And the possibility, you know, in the not distant future of a, you know, changing government and a government that invests in public services, it definitely is solvable.

• 27:40Steven Bartlett?

  On the, one of the points you made there about the infection spreading, I thought was quite compelling. I was reading about the, the story of, I think it's Hazrat Wali, the story of an eighteen year old guy who was in Twickenham, was approached by a sixteen year old kid, ended up being stabbed to death by, with an eighteen, eight inch knife, because he got into an argument with this person. And when that sixteen year old that stabbed him to death was asked, he said he stabbed him because he was, people in his life had been victims of knife crime and he, he thought, he was scared that Hazrat would have a knife himself. That's the infection you're talking about.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  Yes. Basically, what happens is, some young people that I speak to will think the way to be safe is to carry a knife, because they suspect you might be carrying a knife, right? And so we've got to get the message across that, you know, leaving it home with a knife doesn't make you more safe, it makes you less safe. So if you go to a primary school now, not a secondary school, a primary school, across the country, by the way, and you have a classroom of thirty people. And you say, how many of you know somebody carrying the knife? You'll be shocked the number of hands that go up in a primary school, right? Secondary school is even higher.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  And so there is this belief amongst young people that carrying the knife makes you more safe, not less safe. And by the way, I went to a tough secondary school, lots of fights, nobody even thought about taking a knife to school, right, or getting involved with knives at all, and you know.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  So we've got to deal with that issue at source to make sure young people understand the dangers. We're going into schools, speaking to young people, people with credibility. You've got to have somebody who's, the message carrier needs to be somebody who kids respect and will listen to, right? And so getting people to go into schools to explain the dangers, sometimes it's a bereaved mum. A bereaved mum can be really effective in explaining the story about her son, tends to be boys, about her son and the dangers of carrying the knife. So we've got to stop it at source. We've also got to make sure, frontly speaking, that there's intelligence led to stop and search. Because if you're carrying the knife, I want you to be stopped and searched, and if you've got a knife taken off you. I would make progress in taking knives off people, which is saving lives. Weapon sweeps is really important.

• 29:55Speaker 00

  But also, if you're caught carrying the knife, there's got to be serious sentences. There's got to be a consequence if you're carrying that knife, but you know, and that's why we've got to have these conversations, that's why it's the public health approach. And it is leading to, you know, huge reductions, you know, over the last year, we've had a fifty-five percent reduction in doing homicides. Not enough, one is one too many. You know, a few homicides last year, then when I first became mayor, not enough, but we're making progress because the investment is now starting to pay dividends in relation to youth clubs, youth work, going into schools, more police officers.

• 30:26Steven Bartlett?

  There was a, there was a big drop in knife crime, wasn't there? Was it two thousand and twenty, I'm going to say?

• 30:30Speaker 00

  So. Was that the pandemic? So the pandemic, we saw a reduction, a number of reasons, obviously, for three months, people, but there was lockdown and stuff. But and that progress we've carried on, but it started going on before the pandemic. We first started investing in, it was called the Young Londoners Fund in about twenty eighteen, nineteen, but it takes some time to get youth, youth workers back employed, youth centres back open and also young people starting to have these points landed on them. It's not, there's not, you know, lightbulb moment, it's going to take time, spend time with them. That's why mentors are so important. The reason I made the point at the beginning, Stephen, about you as a role model is, you know, I'm a firm believer in you can't, you can't be if you can't see it, right? I was lucky, I was lucky that I saw at home my mum working really hard, my dad working really hard, my big brother's working really hard. I had role models. A lot of young people haven't got that role model at home.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  The youth worker is that role model. A youth worker is an amazing asset to a young person if you've not got the role model at home in relation to a big brother, a friend, somebody you can ring up, somebody to give you career advice, you know, a lot of young people don't have to put up a tie, right? Don't have to shave, can't go for a job interview. Those soft skills we're teaching young people now, you may think, why are you teaching young people those soft skills? Because they need those soft skills, right? Well, knife crime's up since last year though, isn't it? No, it's gone down. So basically, knife crime's gone down since I became there. Homicide's gone down. Since last year? No, robbery's got off a bit, robbery's got off a bit for a number of reasons we're dealing with, yeah. That's me. Yeah. A robbery is when you're, yeah. Oh, out and about, okay. Robbery, sorry, robbery is burgling with violence. Right.

• 32:00Speaker 00

  My last question on that topic is, do you think London's safe? Well, I asked that question by your answer. If you don't feel it's safe, it's not safe. Right, and so. Do you feel it's safe? Yeah, I do. Because my comparator isn't with respect Bali or Dubai. My comparator is New York, Chicago, those cities, because we are a global city, Stephen. You know, we're not, we're not Cheshire, right? And so, you know, but, but if it's not safe for you, it's not safe for me. I speak to too many women and girls, they say it's not safe. I speak to too many women in particular who say they're imposing a curfew on themselves not to go at night time because they don't feel safe. In that case, it's not safe. I speak to too many, you know, people who are worried about their safety and, you know,

• 32:44Speaker 00

  perception is, is important here because it's fear of crime. That you're talking about because of your experience, right? Uh, and you'll speak to your friends and not reason me that they'll be apprehensive and scared. So it's a problem for me as we've got to address it.

• 32:58Steven Bartlett?

  Women and girls, there's been a lot of talk recently about instances of police officers who have attacked, raped wi- women and girls on the streets of London.

• 33:14Steven Bartlett?

  What are you doing about that to prevent that happening going forward?

• 33:18Speaker 00

  So in the last few years, there's been at last publicity given to the fact that every three days across our country, a woman is killed at the hands of a man every three days.

• 33:32Speaker 00

  And that's a sobering fact.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Recently, we've seen much of the tragic murders of Sarah Everard, um, you know, Zara Elina, you know, Bieber and Nicole, uh, you know, and many others, Sabina Nessa. But also we've seen people who we trust to keep us safe. Peace officers, police officers, the people we go to when we're the victims of crime, being involved in the most serious crimes possible. Sarah Everard was abducted by a man using his warrant card, raped and killed by a serving police officer. We had David Carrick, somebody who'd been a police officer for almost 20 years. We discover throughout most of his 20 years had been a prolific sexual offender,

• 34:21Speaker 00

  using the fact he's a police officer to commit some of those crimes. But also it appears there were opportunities for the police during the vetting process to find out this guy was criminal and not just stop him being a police officer, but take action against him. My view that I've been making clear for a number of years now, and I've been criticised for this, is I think there are systemic cultural issues in the police service. One of the reasons why I ultimately lost conf- I ultimately lost confidence in the previous commissioner was my lack of belief in her ability to understand this as an issue, have a plan to address this, have a plan to win back the trust and confidence of Londoners. And so we've got to make sure we have a reforming commissioner doing this job.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  Unless the guy at the top or the woman at the top understands the problem, how are you going to fix it? I think the new commissioner and his deputy understands the problem and have got a plan to fix it. They're taking on board the recommendations from an outsider. You can't mark your own homework. You need somebody else to look into things, tell you how bad things are, make recommendations and follow them through. So we've got an outsider, Louise Casey, to look into what's going on in the Met Police Service. She's published an interim report. The commissioner's accepted all the findings. She will now publish her final report later on this year. We need to change the rules around how police officers are employed. So if a member of your staff had a nickname, the bastard, that would raise questions for you, right? Why is this guy's nickname amongst his colleagues, the bastard?

• 35:50Speaker 00

  Or are there nicknames that police officers involved in this stuff have had? No action taken against them because it's very difficult for the commissioner and others to get rid of dodgy officers. The regulations make it difficult. We're not asking necessarily in all cases for a criminal prosecution. We're asking for those officers to be at least sacked. So we're lobbying the government to change the regulations to make it easier for the commission to get rid of dodgy officers. We've set up a hotline for people can ring in and police officers can ring in about dodgy behaviour of other officers. From City Hall, without government support, from City Hall, we're investing more money in ramping up the vetting processes. Right, this guy should have been spotted a mile away. I've also asked the commissioner, well, it was his idea to be fair, to go back 10 years

• 36:35Speaker 00

  and look at every single time a police officer has had a complaint made against them of this nature, to see if any other opportunities missed with other officers. We've also got a new unit, which we're invested in, an anti-abuse and corruption unit. But my view is this, by the way, in London, we've shown a spotlight on this. But there are other police forces around the country where, you know, I'm sure there are other issues where that spotlight's not been shown yet. And so it's really important for us to recognise these systemic cultural issues across our country that demand addressing.

• 37:05Steven Bartlett?

  What's been your hardest day as London Mayor?

• 37:09Speaker 00

  There's been a few. I think Grenfell Tower, that I still remember the images, I still remember the heat. I went to a lot of funerals. That summer was, that summer was hard. I'm still attached with the families, I see them often. And whenever I see them, it comes back. But Grenfell was just, it was just, and it still sticks with me because it could have been us. It's a council estate, diverse estate, lovely community. Those families will always be the same again.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  And every time I go there,

• 37:52Speaker 00

  and I spend time with the families,

• 37:56Speaker 00

  you just, you just think of what these families are going through. One family, six people wiped out. Another eleven-year-old child who'd won an essay competition. And you know, when you speak to those who were the judges, she would have gone on to be, you know, this amazing woman, lost her life in that fire. And so that 2017 was hard because we also had at the same time, the awful fire at Grenfell and a number of terror attacks in London, London Bridge, Westminster Bridge, Finsbury Park.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  That summer was hard, you know, because I spent a lot of time, I like, I like, I like to, I think it's important for me to spend time with brief families. So when I was an MP, when I was a lawyer, I spent a lot of time with brief families, my clients. When I was an MP, there was ever, you know, a homicide in Tooting. I would meet the families, ask to meet the families. When I became mayor, I started a practice where whenever there was a homicide in London, my office would write to the family and say, look, obviously give my condolences, but give them my details and meet with the families. And so after Grenfell, I went to a lot of funerals, a lot of families, and those families' stories stay with you. And I'm still in contact with a lot of them.

• 39:18Steven Bartlett?

  That summer, June 2017,

• 39:24Steven Bartlett?

  you referenced the London Bridge attacks as well, where I think three men in a van mounted the sidewalk, then jumped out with knives and killed, I think, eight people in total in Borough Market.

• 39:38Steven Bartlett?

  When you see this happening, you're at home, right? 10pm at night, you're watching the telly, you see this happening. What goes on in your head?

• 39:48Speaker 00

  So just to reassure people watching, so we do a lot of preparation, a lot of practice, a lot of planning on those sorts of things. So you see, you try and, and you're never ready for it. But you try to do what you can in advance to understand it because I'm not a police officer, I'm not in MI5, I'm not counter terror. But I'm the police ground commissioner, so I need to understand what you're doing so I can understand your job. And so I've always tried to understand what you're doing so I can be at help, not hindrance. And so when it happens, there's a lot of uncertainty in real time what's going on.

• 40:26Speaker 00

  But the good news is our police and other partners are trained for the phrases, a marauding terrorist, the phrase for it, there's training for it. And we learn from other countries when this happens. So the first time this sort of terror tactic was used, that's well known about, was in Delhi a number of years ago. So our police have learnt what's happened there. And so we practise a lot of this stuff in relation to what the firearms team will do in this situation, what the police response will do, what my role is going to be, where I should be and so forth. And, and also you've got to give assurance to Londoners, you can't play into the terrorist's hands. What does terrorists want you to do?

• 41:09Speaker 00

  A terrorist wants to terrorise you and have panic spreading, changing behaviour in a way that's perverse and so forth. So it's really important, the response I have to a terror attack, because I could inadvertently be playing into the hands of the terrorists.

• 41:25Steven Bartlett?

  Where does emotion come into all of this? You're seeing, you know, carnage, you're seeing death. Is there a place for emotion in all of that?

• 41:34Speaker 00

  In real time, there really can't be. In real time, there can't be for, and that sort of stuff. There can be when it comes to a fire in Grenfell, which you know, which is a different sort of thing. But, but because people are looking to you to provide leadership. And panic doesn't, isn't good leadership. And so one of the reasons why, you know, I've asked for, and we've had the practice, the preparation, the planning, is to make sure there isn't panic and there isn't emotion, because you've got to make rational decisions and provide reassurance in a cool, calm way. You know, you can't go to a Cobra meeting and be hysterical. You've got to be explaining the facts, what you've ascertained, what you're going to do, what buses are going to be diverted, what tubes are going to be stopped, you know, and so forth. And the important thing in London, in that sort of context, Stephen, is we can't foretell what happens, reprisals, right? People wrongly thinking, every Muslim

• 42:19Speaker 00

  is a terrorist. We saw in America, post nine eleven, you know, somebody wearing a turban, attacked and killed, because people thought wrongly that it was involved in terrorists in nine eleven. So there's that part of ruchur in the community, community tensions as well.

• 42:33Steven Bartlett?

  After that incident happened, Donald Trump came out and made some disparaging comments about, about, I guess, about, about you in London, really kind of mocking what you'd said. How do, how do you feel about that? Is it, I mean, it's, I mean, from my point of view, it's incredibly bizarre behaviour for a world leader to be taking such a stance after such a tragedy. But how did, how did that feel on that day emotionally?

• 43:00Speaker 00

  It was odd. Let me tell you why it's odd. There's basically an understanding we have. There are certain cities and certain parts of the world are targets of terrorists because of our values, because of our way of life and so forth. And so there's a sense of solidarity. We saw what happened in Paris. You know, we, you know, we saw what happened in nine eleven, right? There are other examples around the world in Manchester, the awful, you know, events of the Ariana Grande concert and so forth. And so there's always a sense of solidarity. And you'll, you'll see world leaders, you know, mayors know this, sending messages of solidarity. And it's unusual, it's exceptional actually, for particularly a closest ally, right? It's a special relationship. You saw our primary response to nine eleven, you know, Tony Blair, George Bush.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  And you have Donald Trump responding the way he he does, and let's be frank, you know, if the mayor of London wasn't, you know, somebody of, you know, my background, my faith and so forth, and he didn't have the views he had about people of my faith and my background, he wouldn't have responded the way he did, would he?

• 44:02Steven Bartlett?

  Has that has that played a role in how people have treated you in terms of on the other side of the aisle, people that have political views? Do you think some of, I'm reflecting now on much of what Meghan Markle said about how like the institutional, her claims about institutional racism impacting the way she was treated by the press and by by the institution itself. But but when I think about you being, you know, probably Britain's most famous Muslim, you are the mayor of London. Do you believe that there has been instances, and there are just generally a bias because you are a Muslim yourself? And how does that rear its head on like a day to day, month to month basis?

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Well, looking backwards, I mean, I'm sure you've read about the my first election campaign in 2016, right? My faith was used against me by my opponents. You know, you kind of Muslim, I'm there, links with terrorism, so forth, so forth, for no other reason but because of, to be frank, my faith, right? And that's why it's so important to win. Because had I not won, if you're an Asian or a Muslim or whatever, you think, hold on a sec, it's not possible to be the mayor of London because of your faith that holds you back. And that's why winning was important for a variety of other reasons as well. But you know, the thing about our city is, notwithstanding the prejudices against the religion that I practice, because a minority of terrorists do bad things, use the name of Islam, this

• 45:26Speaker 00

  city voted for not just an ethnic minority, not just a religious minority, but the religion he belongs to is Islam. It's just something wonderful about our city, not just tolerating difference, respecting, embracing and celebrating it as well. But I can't escape the fact that, you know, being a Muslim.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  When we're living in a climate of Islamophobia, you know, has challenges as well. It's not a secret, so I'm not divulging any breaches of, you know, national security. The Christchurch shooter in New Zealand, you know, referenced me in his, in his diatribe. The Finsbury Park terror, terror, terrorist, you know, referenced me in his terrorist act in Finsbury Park outside the mosque. You know, I'm not, I'm not giving equivalent to Donald Trump in relation to terrorists, but Donald Trump for a period of time was obsessed with me. And so that leads to you go to social media, some of the stuff that I get on social media, right? You go to some of the far right groups, some of the stuff I receive there.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Some of the, you know, in inverted commas, mainstream journalists who use me as clickbait. They know if they use my name, it's going to attract traffic to their social media channels. They, they know that.

• 46:40Steven Bartlett?

  Because you're Muslim.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  Of course it is, right? Because we know that there's a currency, there's a currency, right? Uh, you know, and we know for reasons that, you know, you know, aren't fair to Muslims. The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority, yeah, who live in the West, love the West, Laura Biden and so forth. But the actions of a small minority means we're all labeled, we're all demonized. And so.

• 47:02Steven Bartlett?

  I was reading The Independent and they were talking about the death threats you'd received on social media. You'd come out and talked about some of the comments that people had made to you, calling you a,

• 47:15Steven Bartlett?

  words that I probably can't even repeat, and I won't repeat to be fair, but very derogatory, racist, homosexual at times. Terminology towards you, which oftentimes included death threats. And The Independent had written an article showing what those, those threats were. Have you ever felt like your safety was at risk?

• 47:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's been a few times. Yeah, yeah.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  And that's one of the reasons why, you know, I now have please protection, not because I asked for it. For a year I said no, and in the end. My wife and my chief of staff said, you've got to take it. Why? Because two reasons. Because if I'm out with my family, their personal safety is being compromised, right? Uh, I can't have that. If I'm out with my staff working, their personal safety is being compromised and I'm not willing to take that risk either. And so, uh, you know, there'd be specific threats. But the problem with police protection is it means you lose your spontaneity. So, you know, I came here by tube. Uh, I'm not, you know, the police officers on the tube with me, right? You would know they were there, you know, um, and so forth.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  But they've got to be with me when I go to a restaurant, when I go to the cinema and I'm walking my dog when I'm getting the tube, right? And so it restricts my ability to just, you know. Have you ever been genuinely worried about your safety? Couple of times, yeah. There was, there was an occasion where, uh, yeah, there'd been a number of occasions. I probably, I don't want to give them the credit by making them know that I was scared and worried about my safety because, you know, they all think they can do it again. But yeah, there have been occasions, even with police protection. Uh, my part team are brilliant, you know, but I've, I've asked them to just, you know, keep a distance because I want, I don't want them to be next to me like, I mean, I'm a celebrity or, or the prime minister. You know, I, I like the fact that I'm a normal Joe, uh, and I try and be as much as I, I can. But there have been times, yeah, of course they have, um, uh, as mayor.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  But there have been times I've been worried about my security before I was mayor, you know, when, you know, and that's, and that's, you know, you know, nine 11 was traumatic for a variety of reasons. Thousands of people lost their lives. It was just awful. What it did though, was it gave, it gave permission of people to treat all of us, uh, uh, you know, in a way that I had not experienced before. So when I was growing up.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  The P word, the N word, the W word were sometimes used. And, you know, my white friends, black friends and me knew that was, that was like, that was, we'd, we'd see the red mist and there'd be fight, right? You couldn't, yeah, and but, but it was never about faith. And I'm not saying one is better than the other and stuff, right? But something happened. Where it became about faith and Islamophobia stuff. And there is still a great sense of solidarity in relation to people who still defend me who aren't Muslims and stuff, right? What it does is a number of things. Firstly, if you're a mum or dad and you're Muslim and your son or daughter is thinking about Korean politics or public life, you say, you know what? If someone like Salih Khan is getting that sort of stuff,

• 50:15Speaker 00

  I don't really want you to get involved in politics. Or, and this happens a lot, if you're somebody who wants to amplify my social media or be supportive,

• 50:27Speaker 00

  and you do it, and then you get this diatribe of hate because you've done that, there's two responses. And nine out of ten people say, I had no idea that you received that stuff. How can I help? And one out of ten people will say, you know what? This is a bit too much, you know, I'm not gonna actually.

• 50:45Steven Bartlett?

  Has it ever affected you personally?

• 50:48Steven Bartlett?

  Sleepless nights?

• 50:50Speaker 00

  In relation to?

• 50:51Steven Bartlett?

  Hate, abuse.

• 50:53Speaker 00

  I worry about my, I wanna make sure my wife and kids are safe, I wanna make sure they're safe. At the moment, I've got the, you know, I'm lucky, I've got a police protection team keeping me safe, right? But we, you know, the city hall receives threats and, you know, so we're in this ridiculous situation where because of the hatred against me, people are writing letters and emails to city hall staff who in the previous sixteen years haven't had this. We've had MF since two thousand. And we've got to provide our staff, and this is not ridiculous, the ridiculous part is us receiving hatred. But we've got a duty of care to our staff, right? Our staff are traumatized, upset, all the rest of it. So we now got to support our staff in ways never done before.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  So that worries me, the fact they've impacted my staff reading this stuff, the emails, reading the letters that come in, they've impacted my staff reading the social media, they've impacted my family reading this stuff. I'm not gonna allow anybody to change my behaviour. I will not cower. But also, I will not let you know if you're bullying me that I feel it. So even if I was being affected and I'm not, I won't tell the guys that I'm being affected, because it gives them solace, it gives them comfort. It means they've won. I'm not gonna do that.

• 52:05Steven Bartlett?

  But in this kind of medium, I think there is value in sharing that because people don't realise, right? So it's a world that we don't know, so we don't care about, so we don't as a society do anything about, because we don't even know it exists. I mean, much of what you've said is news to me. The fact that you're telling me your staff need, I'm presuming, psychological support because of the amount of abuse you're getting, and at the heart of that is your religion and your race.

• 52:32Speaker 00

  So often, other things will come into it, but you should have to read. Just when you get a chance, you know, it's not good for your mental health, but when you get a chance, you just have a look at some of the stuff that people say about me, and it's not all bots, by the way.

• 52:44Steven Bartlett?

  But has that ever infected you? Because I can tell you, I've had abuse targeted at me and it affected me. And I don't mind saying that, because I think it's just the truth, to be fair. So has there ever been, you know, anxiety, worries?

• 52:57Speaker 00

  No, no, it's affected me in the sense that, you know, I've spoken to social media companies and others about the responsibility they have about their algorithms, about, you know, employing staff to take this stuff off. You know, my staff, not me, have reported some of this stuff to the police and actually been taken in, some people have said some of this stuff because of the incitement elements of it. I think there are issues here about the ease with which social media allows people with hateful, spiteful, racist, criminal views to have those views amplified where they wouldn't 20 years ago. So 20 years ago, 30 years ago, so when I was growing up, right, you could only bully me if you saw me in the playground or if you saw me down the street. You could only call me names that way. You could maybe write me a letter if you knew where I lived. Now you can do it from your bedroom without even being in the same city as me, the same

• 53:42Speaker 00

  country as me.

• 53:43Steven Bartlett?

  Anonymously.

• 53:44Speaker 00

  Anonymously as well. And some of these algorithms amplify this, and some of these people have got big followings, and they all jump in the bandwagon as well. And so, you know, there is a problem there in relation to how we deal with this stuff. But also, listen, it's happening to, you speak to a girl in a secondary school, some of the stuff she now receives, or, you know, black kids going to school now, in their bedroom on social media, right? And so, you know, this is not just an issue for me, I don't want anybody to feel sorry for me, but it's an issue for everyone.

• 54:15Steven Bartlett?

  Covid, speaking of mental health, I heard you said that during the Covid period, you did suffer a little bit with your own mental health. Can you give me some detail on what you mean by that?

• 54:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, look, before we came, we were talking about, you know, return to the office and stuff, and I'm somebody who, by the way, you don't realise this at the time. So I'm somebody who I now realise thrives on working with people, being around people on company, right? And I didn't really appreciate that until the pandemic. And I'm lucky, I've got a decent sized home. My, my, my daughters came on from university. Wife, we get on really well, we do, you know, and so we can give each other space and stuff. And so I've got a garden, we got a dog. But I realised

• 55:01Speaker 00

  that there was a, there wasn't a lightbulb moment.

• 55:06Speaker 00

  But I, but hindsight, I realised

• 55:10Speaker 00

  I stopped shaving, you know, I, you know, I were jogging bobs all day. I wasn't as communicative. Of course, I'd shave if I was doing, you know, morning breakfast shows or whatever. I, I, I didn't have my mojo. I like to think that I can inspire my team. I, I, you know, you don't, you don't, it's like when you manage people, right?

• 55:33Speaker 00

  I didn't, I just didn't, I just, there was something not quite right and I couldn't, I didn't know that in real time, I didn't, you know, I didn't, but they were saying, and I just, and, and on hindsight, what I realised was that there were things I did in my normal life that gave me mental fitness. And it was not physical fitness, mental fitness, right?

• 55:58Speaker 00

  And because I wasn't doing those, I was suffering mental ill health. Now, fortunately, I needed to be medicalised, but it meant I had to think about the things I ought to do to keep mental, my mental health well. And I struggled and I, and on hindsight, there was a period of time where I wasn't top of my game, because I now am, and because, you know, after a while I realised this and was taking steps to address that. And I realised I can't work from home in perpetuity. I, I, I need to be around people. I need that buzz, whether it's the banter on the tube, whether it's beating my staff, whether it's that conversation before I go into the office, that team meeting.

• 56:39Speaker 00

  I didn't realise that's what helps me keep my mental health, but also makes me, you know, be effective. And it's other things, you know, sport. I didn't realise how important sport is to me. I didn't realise not playing tennis, not going for a run, not playing football. I didn't realise that, because I thought I did it for keeping, I thought I did that to keep physically fit. Not realising, actually, it's an integral part in my mental wellbeing.

• 57:05Steven Bartlett?

  When you, when you think about your, your job as mayor over the last, you know, since you were elected mayor, where, where do you think you've let yourself down?

• 57:17Speaker 00

  Well, that's a good question.

• 57:21Speaker 00

  I think, I think you alluded to this early on, that the seven days a week stuff. When you speak to most experts, and I speak to lots of, I'm privileged in speaking to you, there's lots of people who, they said, they say that's really important to get the balance right in relation to being fresh for the time where you've got to be on. Uh, my response is I'm on quite a lot. So I've got to use the time when I'm off to make sure I recharge my batteries. And so I think that pace, pacing myself, you know, I've tried on a marathon as a sprint.

• 57:49Steven Bartlett?

  What about policies? Things you would, would have liked to have gotten done, but you've not been able to get done. A lot of people have levelled the, you know, things like housing and will we be carbon neutral by 2030? Um, what are the things you look at and go, do you know what? I failed there.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I'm not going to answer that question honestly, but I'm running for reelection in, in 467 days time, right? Because the answer is going to use against me. But let me tell you some of the stuff we've got, we've done lots of right as well as to suffer the wrong.

• 58:10Steven Bartlett?

  Is that, is that real? Is that like a real thing where you, you can't tell the truth because someone might use it against you?

• 58:15Speaker 00

  That's the, I think, the thing that I've been least effective about, and I've said this before, is, is, uh, by, the, the, we've not managed to say the government, the importance of devolving more powers and resources to London. The governments, you know, the, my dad used to say that, you know, you should judge somebody by the friends you keep, right? I've got a different, I've got a different saying, which is judge somebody by their enemies, you know? And the government don't like me, right? And so the, the politics is the main reason. And so the government, and I think I've, I've sometimes not helped because of my pugilistic nature.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  And I worry, have London has been let down because the government see me as an enemy, not giving London the support they would give if somebody else was the mayor. And so I've tempered, you know, since I won reelection, I've tempered some of that because I realise I can't allow my natural adversarial nature, my dislike of the government, to get in the way of doing business with the government. So that's the honest answer. But by the way, I meant what I said about this, when you said tongue in cheek, well, can you not be honest? Yeah, because I'm still in the game, right? So when you ask an ex-politician questions like that, they'll give you a candid answer, but you can't, it's like asking, ask Tyson Fury, Tyson, what's the weakness in your game? You know, you wouldn't do that.

• 59:34Speaker 00

  I'm not saying I'm Tyson Fury, but I'm still top of my game.

• 59:38Steven Bartlett?

  It's really interesting. Part of me think, it's an interesting game, politics and all this stuff.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  It's not a game, it's not a game.

• 59:44Steven Bartlett?

  You just said you're still in the game, so I'm using your word. But it's an interesting game to me because I don't feel like politicians can ever be truly themselves. They can't truly speak their mind. And I am part, I wonder if that's actually acting against them. I think there's almost this political, kind of, this political, I don't know, philosophy or whatever, where you kind of have to be a little bit cagey, you kind of have to never really answer a question, you kind of have to get by.

• 1:00:09Speaker 00

  Yes and no.

• 1:00:10Steven Bartlett?

  Trump, to his credit, Trump, the thing he did, and I hate to say Trump did anything well, but the thing he did, you know what you're getting with this guy. Whether it's good, bad, driven by narcissism, whatever, you have this sense that he's telling you what he thinks.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  I've got at least seventeen responses to that. Let me give you a couple. So one is, which is interesting, is I think Trump's, one of Trump's tweets that he said against me was hashtag stone cold loser, describing me, right?

• 1:00:37Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Well, he lost his reelection, I didn't.

• 1:00:40Steven Bartlett?

  True.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  So he's a one-term president.

• 1:00:44Speaker 00

  Barack Obama isn't, even George W. Bush isn't.

• 1:00:47Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think he's coming back?

• 1:00:50Speaker 00

  He's gonna try and come back, and he's got a good chance. I think DeSantis will probably get the Republican nomination.

• 1:00:54Steven Bartlett?

  How do you feel about that, him coming back, honestly?

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  Well, I wouldn't just come back and be beaten. So I think, I think politics, you know, the reason why I said about, you know, I'm still in the game is because it's a good metaphor. Because I, you know, I learn a lot from sports, because I love sports and stuff, and a lot of leadership skills I get from sports. But let me tell you why you're both right and wrong in relation to your, your observation, which I think is, I think is, is right and it's wrong. So when you're an MP, I think you're right. I think most MPs have got to be inauthentic, I'll tell you why, because in Parliament, there's something called collective responsibility, and you've got to stay in your lane for a start. So if you're a transport minister, you can really enter about transport, because if I have a view about health, it'll, it'll annoy the health secretary.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  Or if I've got a view about foreign policy or health, in fact, it'll upset the foreign secretary, right? Or the budget. And so you've got to stay in your lane, which is, which is a frustration, because you've got to stand by the policies they've got in their other areas, right? So you've got to be inauthentic. But also this thing called collective responsibility. So inside the cabinet, what happens is, if there's a good, strong prime minister, there'll be an argument and discussion inside cabinet about policy. And you can have a different view, you can be honest then. But once you reach a view, when you leave the cabinet, all of you have got to defend that view and be advocates of the view. And that's why you're spot on. So, and it reminds me of being a lawyer. I've got to say, hound on heart, there were cases I had where I didn't agree with the brief or like it, but I had to argue the case.

• 1:02:26Speaker 00

  I was the lawyer, right? And the same goes when you're an MP. The difference when you're the mayor or the president is you can be yourself.

• 1:02:33Steven Bartlett?

  So what's Labour getting wrong?

• 1:02:38Speaker 00

  I think we have lots of things right, to be fair. Come on, I mean, I think, I think, you know, when I think about the last two, three years since Keir became leader, we've got a lot of things right. I think the frustration voters have, which I think is not fair, is we're not putting enough flesh in the detail. Right. And there's a reason for that, I explain. So, so the answer to your question, the direct answer is, we're not giving enough retail policy, enough reasons to vote Labour. Yes, time for change is effective, but, but, but people would say, what Labour's getting wrong is not giving details of policy. My response is, hold on a sec, you've got to peak at the right time. The general election might not be until 20 months away. So if Rachel Reeves, Shadow Chancellor, came out with a policy on, on, on the budget,

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  well, the economy in 20 months' time is going to be very different from the economy now. How could she honestly be asked to give a tax and spend policy now? Well, Keir Starmer announces a great policy, the windfall levy on energy companies. Sunak nicks it, dilutes it a bit. So Sunak gets the credit, not Keir. Your best policy has been done. So this is, and so the point is, you've got to peak at the right time and the paration has got to come in the weeks before.

• 1:03:42Steven Bartlett?

  That's interesting, because the question, question I asked is, what's Labour getting wrong? And you didn't answer, you didn't.

• 1:03:48Speaker 00

  I didn't explain it's the retail, the retail policy.

• 1:03:50Steven Bartlett?

  That's the public perception of what Labour's getting wrong. I'm saying, what do you think Labour's getting wrong?

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, but, but Steve, that's my point. Listen.

• 1:03:56Steven Bartlett?

  If you say nothing, that's fine. I just.

• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no, listen. But my point is this, that, that, that, there's two points to that. One is, I say this with respect and love. You know, advice I give to Keir, I'd give in private, not in public, right, as a first thing. And secondly, there's a general election in 20 months' time. And, you know, my point about, you know, we have, you know, I'm, I'm still in the game, is, is, you know, I want to make sure that privately, the views I've got about what Labour's getting wrong are sorted out before the general election, rather than telegraphing to the opposition, things were getting wrong, so they can, you know, using the boxing metaphor, try and knock Keir Starmer out.

• 1:04:34Steven Bartlett?

  And that's, but that's kind of similar to what you were saying about the MPs having to kind of. Stay stay in their lane because they can't be critical of anything else that's happening around them. I get it, it's a party, I guess that's how the system works, but as a as a muggle, he doesn't really, isn't that interested in, well, I'm interested in politics, but I'm not heavily engaged.

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  But here's your here's your conundrum though, Stephen.

• 1:04:55Speaker 00

  And it's a good conundrum to have, which is the next general election, probably one of two people that will be prime minister. Right, Sunak or Keir Starmer. Unless Sunak is goes the way of Liz Truss and Boris Johnson, right? And so politics isn't perfection, it's relativism. And so you've got to choose between one of these two, there's no, there's nobody else, it's not Keir Starmer or perfection.

• 1:05:17Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what it is though?

• 1:05:18Speaker 00

  It's it's the appearance of perfection, right?

• 1:05:21Steven Bartlett?

  Because as you said, you can't.

• 1:05:22Speaker 00

  Perfect though, in our lifetime, no one is perfect.

• 1:05:24Steven Bartlett?

  But that's what I'm saying, it's the appearance of it, in the sense that like, you can't criticize Labour.

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  Oh, I can, believe me, I can, look, I'll give you, I'll give you an example.

• 1:05:31Steven Bartlett?

  Publicly, I mean.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  No, publicly, so publicly, in the last, in the last two weeks, I criticized Labour, right, on Brexit. I believe Brexit's been an unmitigated disaster, right? I believe that we've got to be much closer to the EU. And that includes, by the way, yes, outside the EU now, we are outside the EU, but being members of the single market and customs union. That is not Labour's policy.

• 1:05:54Steven Bartlett?

  Right, how does Labour get back in power? When I was younger, listen again, if I'm wrong about any of this political stuff, please, like with my dates and stuff, please forgive me. But I'm just saying, when I was younger, Labour were in power. And then since pretty much over the last 10 years, Labour, Labour haven't been back in power. What's Labour getting wrong? Why isn't it resonating with the the voters? And how does Labour go about fixing that?

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  So the last hundred years, I mean, we've only been in power for a third of that. To give you an idea of, you know, you know, we're not the Man United of of politics, you know. And so a number of things we want to do to win back power. First, we've got to change ourselves. So we've got to, the first part of it is reorganizing Labour ourselves, so internal stuff, the internal wiring is wrong, right?

• 1:06:41Steven Bartlett?

  What's wrong with it?

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  So so this idea that anybody is successful, you know, we're going to bash this idea that we, you know, that the way we fundraise for our party, the way we employ staff and fire staff, this sense of, you know, nepotism and stuff. There's lots of things we got wrong, you know, in the last few years, we've got to, you know.

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  We sort ourselves out, including the organisation, employ the right people, get rid of the wrong people. Have, you know, have proper social media campaign, that sort of stuff, proper campaigning techniques. So the internal stuff you've got to do, the stuff you don't see, how we select candidates, all that sort of stuff, right? The second part of it is be an effective opposition, expose the Tories and call them out when they get things wrong. We can't rely on the mainstream media, you know, apes in the mainstream media is supportive of the Conservative Party, right? It's just a fact. So we've got to be an effective opposition in calling them out and holding them to account, right? Including stuff that would otherwise not be seen. So call them out in relation to policies on the economy. You know, call them out in a policy in relation to the health service, call them out in relation to policies in education.

• 1:07:45Speaker 00

  And the third part, which is the crucial part, is to show the country we've got policies to be an effective government. And that's, that's my point about the perception is we've not done the third part yet. And my answer is holding this door twenty months to go. My point is this.

• 1:08:01Speaker 00

  I don't want to win an election because it's time for change by itself. I want you to be inspired and enthused to vote Labour because of our policy offer. And that's your challenge back to me, saying, what's your, why vote Labour, right?

• 1:08:13Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what's interesting? I've been doing a lot of reading over the last couple of weeks because I'm writing my new book. And I've, I spent, you know, a good thirty days in total, probably in the jungle, reading about psychology and why people, what makes people behave and act and whatever. And the, the, the clear answer from all of that research that I've done and all the studies I went through, going back almost a hundred years, was that people respond emotionally instead of to, to logic. And so when you say that we need to lead with better policies and stuff, it kind of goes, it stands in the face of all of the psychological research I've been reading that says, in fact, people are illogical emotional beings that are driven by their fears and desires. And when I think about politics, honestly, right, and I'm just being completely honest.

• 1:08:54Steven Bartlett?

  I, I think a lot of it is actually just a very instinctive feeling about the person, you know? And this is why I go back to the point about authenticity and why I really struggle with politicians sometimes is. They just don't feel like humans. They feel like these like robots that can't say anything or can't speak their mind. And I just honestly.

• 1:09:14Speaker 00

  I get that.

• 1:09:14Steven Bartlett?

  My, my view with Labour is if they managed to get someone in to lead the party who felt like my mate, that I could, I kind of related to and tell me the good and the bad and was just a bit of a normal person, not a suit, not super rich, not whatever, didn't go to Eton or whatever it is. Talking about both sides here. I actually think they'd win. I think from many people.

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  And Boris Johnson did win. Right, listen, if the test was, if the test was, who do I want to have a cabochino with? Or who do, or who do I want to forget the government finances, get us through the pandemic, mend our relationship with Europe? There's a different answer. And I, you're right, it's an emotion. And so there's, there's a great phrase, right? You campaign in poetry and you govern in prose. Because it's the emotion, right? You know, it's the, the emotion is really important. But, but my point is, is we see where it's got our country. Where has emotion got our country? And so I think actually, one of the failures of politicians, and I, I also plead guilty, is we've lost the art to be good teachers, right? Political education is lacking in our country.

• 1:10:14Speaker 00

  And so I think a good politician should use his or her role in an unpatronizing way to educate people. You know, you had a, you asked me really good questions about crime, right? Now, these things say, you know, just lock them up, let's arrest ourselves out of this, right? That placed your emotion, because you want the people who burgled your home to be arrested,

• 1:10:35Speaker 00

  put in prison and the keys thrown away, right? Probably, I'm just throwing them, right? But actually, it's my job to, in a non-patronizing way, try and educate you without excusing the criminality, but saying it's a bit more complex than that, right? Yeah.

• 1:10:46Steven Bartlett?

  But you understand, though, I sat here with.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  I get the emotion, I get it.

• 1:10:48Steven Bartlett?

  I sat here with a neuroscientist called Tali Charlotte, and she has basically written a book about this, about how the brain has a default towards listening to emotion. She actually referenced Trump. She said, in that debate with the, with the doctor, I think it was in the 2008 elections or 2012 elections, when asked about the autism vaccines.

• 1:11:08Steven Bartlett?

  The doctor who Trump was up against in the debate, reference facts, stats and figures. Trump, it then comes to Trump and he tells a story about one of his mates with a big needle. You know, he uses all of this descriptive emotional storytelling language and tally, even though she knows the science around vaccines, she said she was a little bit put off giving her daughter the autism vaccine after hearing Trump, even though she knew it was nonsense. And for me, that just goes to show the power of like emotion and storytelling versus the feeble influence that stats, stats and figures.

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  I saw in the Brexit campaign, right? So what happened in the Brexit campaign is Nigel Farage and his lot put up this poster.

• 1:11:50Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, about the NHS and about immigrants.

• 1:11:52Speaker 00

  The poster was a cue of Syrians, given the impression that they're going to flood our country because of the Turkey allegedly joining the European Union. And emotionally, that played to people's concerns around immigration. I mean, Brexit was a proxy of immigration, right? And so it was an emotional stuff because rationally, it doesn't make sense if you work for Nissan in Sunderland to be voting to leave the EU. Because you know, your, your, your boss is going to be affected by it, right? Because it's, and so I don't disagree with what you're saying. Your analysis, I get it. It's emotion rather than rational. My point is, yes, that's true in relation to human behavior. But actually, at the same time, we've got to be explained to people that actually it is an X factor.

• 1:12:35Speaker 00

  It's about who's the best person to run our country. And sometimes that person, you know, is not going to be sexy. He's not going to be charismatic. Sometimes he will be. And over a course of an election and a campaign, your personality comes out. Because you're right, personality does matter to an extent. But actually, you know, I want our leaders to know how to, you know, how, you know, how a balance sheet works. Understand what makes a business tick, understand the importance of entrepreneurship, job creation, public services, that stuff.

• 1:13:06Steven Bartlett?

  I want that too. It's just, it just seems like deep innate in human psychology is this desire to be motivated most by our fears, our desires and, and our emotions versus logic and sense. And maybe this is a little bit of a skewed perspective I have because I've spent the last 30 days reading about this psychology and why people are influenced, but.

• 1:13:23Speaker 00

  But the thing is, you listen.

• 1:13:24Steven Bartlett?

  Can I just, I wanted to ask on the positive side, what are you, what are you most proud of following your tenure so far as London mayor? What are the things that you go to, you know what, we really had an impact here for the betterment of Londoners?

• 1:13:36Speaker 00

  Air quality is the obvious example to think of. When I was walking in from the Tube station, I saw the ultra low emission street that Hackney have done really, really well. So we've managed to, so you don't see this stuff, none of us sees this stuff. But if we were growing up in London in the 50s, you'd see the smog, right? Because the power stations, you could see it. You usually couldn't walk because of the smog, more than a metre and a half. It was a killer as well. So we can't see the nitrogen dioxide, the nitrogen oxide, the particulate matter, certainly the carbon emissions, but at least to more than 4,000 premature deaths a year, at least to children who have stunted lungs, at least to adults with a whole host of health issues, me included, asthma, premature heart disease deaths, cancer and so forth. We've managed to, in two

• 1:14:17Speaker 00

  years, reduce the toxic air in the centralised city by half, and we're improving it more across our cities. Air quality is obviously a big one. Council housing, you mentioned housing. We last year, well, actually, the last few years, we have completed more homes in London because of our policies than any year since the 1930s, more council homes than any year since the 1970s, more genuinely affordable homes than any year since records began. Not enough. We've got to do much more to increase supply to meet demand.

• 1:14:47Steven Bartlett?

  Slightly shy of your goal?

• 1:14:49Speaker 00

  No, my goal is much more. So my target is 50,000, but we're not going to get there. And I've said to the government, we need more support. And it's actually, there's an opportunity, if there's a recession coming because of the way the counter cyclical nature of the property market, we can have more home building, actually, and that creates jobs and people paying taxes and so forth. Look at what we've done in public transport. My first five years, we froze fares, the night Tube are up and running. You know, we've got buses going all across London now, more buses, too many more clums of buses next year, the Elizabeth Line, the Northern Line Extension, Park and Riverside Extension. Look at what we talked about in relation to mentors, 100,000 young people have a mentor, made progress in reducing crime, invested in young people.

• 1:15:29Steven Bartlett?

  And if you're elected, again?

• 1:15:33Steven Bartlett?

  What's your number one focus for London?

• 1:15:36Speaker 00

  It's all about a future where, you know, we can deal with the four issues which are really important. A fairer city, so those who, you know, need a helping hand, get a helping hand. A safer city, I think, I think the perception is our city isn't safe. I want to address the reality and the perception.

• 1:15:56Speaker 00

  Greener city, we've got to reduce carbon emissions. I was the first global city to declare a climate emergency. I've changed the National Target in 2050 when I won't be around as the mayor, 2030, right?

• 1:16:05Steven Bartlett?

  Will we get there?

• 1:16:06Speaker 00

  And, uh, yeah, but only a third of the powers I've got. The other two thirds, we need government support, retrofitting, building sites, so forth. The transport we've got, we're making progress there.

• 1:16:15Steven Bartlett?

  But you think we'll get there?

• 1:16:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, and if there's a change of government in two years' time, I hope there will be with Kieran as Prime Minister, we definitely will get there. And a more prosperous city as well. I think, I think our competitors are also our collaborators, the Paris's, the Singapore's, the Hong Kong's, the New York's, but they're our competitors as well, we're going to be more prosperous.

• 1:16:32Steven Bartlett?

  You're fifty two now, right?

• 1:16:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:33Steven Bartlett?

  If you were to, um, God forbid, if you were to, if this were to be your last day,

• 1:16:40Steven Bartlett?

  what regrets would you have about the life you've chosen to live and how you've lived it?

• 1:16:49Speaker 00

  Crikey.

• 1:16:53Speaker 00

  Maybe not work the seven days a week, maybe more time with my family.

• 1:16:59Speaker 00

  I don't think I've seen enough of the world, you know, I've only ever lived in two, spent three years in North London, one year in Godalming at law school when I was in Guildford.

• 1:17:09Speaker 00

  I mean, I've seen the world as a tourist, right, but not, not, I'm not really experienced. You mentioned the long time you spent in the jungle and stuff, and I've not, I've not done that, maybe I missed that.

• 1:17:18Steven Bartlett?

  Got a picture here for you.

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  That's my dad.

• 1:17:22Steven Bartlett?

  He passed away, was it two thousand and?

• 1:17:25Speaker 00

  September the fourth, two thousand and three.

• 1:17:28Speaker 00

  I remember it vividly. It was, it was the one thing in my life that's, that's really knocked me sideways.

• 1:17:36Speaker 00

  And

• 1:17:39Speaker 00

  I still grieve my dad, you know, and I've never got help, even though I was struggling at the time.

• 1:17:47Speaker 00

  So I think, I think.

• 1:17:51Speaker 00

  You should grieve for people you love. It should affect your mental illness. It should

• 1:17:57Speaker 00

  debilitate you.

• 1:18:00Speaker 00

  He was this amazing man, you know. This was a guy who

• 1:18:06Speaker 00

  no airs or graces, watched the news, he'd read the papers, he would spend time with the kids. He would, you know, he would never say no to overtime in the garage. Never say no to overtime in the garage.

• 1:18:18Speaker 00

  Thoroughly decent man. He, when he retired, he would spend time in the mosque. He was the mozzin. The mozzin is the guy that has the call to prayer.

• 1:18:26Steven Bartlett?

  Did you, did you, did you get to, did you speak to him properly?

• 1:18:29Speaker 00

  No, that, that's, that's a regret. But we didn't, we didn't get the call. You know, Anisa was, my oldest daughter was five, when he, four, when he passed away, Mara was two. They didn't get to know him really. I didn't have the, he would have loved me being a man. He would have loved, you know, support, you know, so the cathedral, the swearing ceremony.

• 1:18:48Steven Bartlett?

  How old were you when he passed away?

• 1:18:49Speaker 00

  I was thirty three. And what I think about is, I was too young when he passed. And, you know, I didn't know I was depressed at the time. I was depressed. I, you know, saw they spotted it, that this, I wasn't, I wasn't functioning. I threw myself, I threw myself into work.

• 1:19:04Speaker 00

  Shortly after, I ran to be the Labour candidate, actually, because that's how I got through this time. But I think about my youngest brother was only twenty five when he passed. And, and I was, and, and, and we've now, I think, since we've had kids, that's, that's made us much more touchy feeling, talking about feelings and stuff. We hug and we say I love you and stuff and we.

• 1:19:25Steven Bartlett?

  Are there words unsaid to him?

• 1:19:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, without a doubt.

• 1:19:28Steven Bartlett?

  What are those words?

• 1:19:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're between, they're between him and me, to be honest, but it's,

• 1:19:39Speaker 00

  yeah.

• 1:19:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:47Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. You will know who this person is, but I, but I shan't tell you.

• 1:19:57Steven Bartlett?

  The question they've left is, everyone gets really nervous when I get to this question. I don't know why. It's weird. Nobody cares about my questions. But then when this one comes, it takes people forever to answer. If you could give one piece of advice to yourself at the start of your life, what would it have been?

• 1:20:18Speaker 00

  That's a good one.

• 1:20:23Speaker 00

  Enjoy the experience.

• 1:20:25Steven Bartlett?

  Why that?

• 1:20:27Speaker 00

  Because often, I don't know if you get to do it, you're so busy, you don't get to enjoy it.

• 1:20:34Speaker 00

  When you speak to people who have, we talk, we talk teasingly about being an ex politician. They, they, they, they follow the memory.

• 1:20:44Speaker 00

  But they didn't enjoy the experience.

• 1:20:47Speaker 00

  And I remember saying, I remember famous footballer Gary Neville being interviewed. Saying he didn't really enjoy it. And I think I find that odd. You know, you, you don't enjoy the experience. And so enjoy the experience, you know, and actually.

• 1:21:04Speaker 00

  You know, when your ambition is always trying to do the next thing, right? And it's, and I, I think ambition is important, is important to, you know, to have a, you know, a grasp greater than your reach. But in the meantime, enjoy the experience.

• 1:21:18Steven Bartlett?

  Have you enjoyed the experience?

• 1:21:20Speaker 00

  Loved it. I loved it. But, but you know, but, but, but question, have I savored it with my friends and family enough? Have I just been too busy and too blinkered in relation to, in relation to sharing the enjoyment of the experience? Um, and I tried, I tried doing that more. So I try and, I try and include. Sid and the girls more in the stuff that I do to make sure they enjoy the experience and my friends and, and you know, my, my family and so forth.

• 1:21:44Steven Bartlett?

  Sid, thank you. Thank you for your time. And thank you for being here. I am, I'm, I'm very, as I said, I'm very compelled by, by politicians and. The world of politics, because it's, it's not a world that I know necessarily well, but it's a world, world that I observe with great intrigue and, and wonder. Um, I'd say dissatisfaction largely. So largely just because it just seems to be so far away from the like, what I love about, I don't know, humans.

• 1:22:10Speaker 00

  Which politicians do you admire, either overseas or here?

• 1:22:13Steven Bartlett?

  Um, I loved Barack Obama. I thought he was great.

• 1:22:16Speaker 00

  We all love Barack Obama.

• 1:22:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:22:18Speaker 00

  There's only one Barack Obama.

• 1:22:19Steven Bartlett?

  Exactly. I think, I think because he, he felt incredibly human. I remember watching him cry on, after Sandy Hook and I. He just felt like a good man with a good family and good morals. And I kind of felt like he had. He'd, he was, he was authentic.

• 1:22:34Speaker 00

  That's a good one.

• 1:22:35Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I think he's probably, he's my number one.

• 1:22:38Speaker 00

  The problem is you set your bar so high.

• 1:22:40Steven Bartlett?

  I know.

• 1:22:40Speaker 00

  None of us are Barack Obama.

• 1:22:42Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I know, but I think everyone has the potential to be, to emulate him in some respects.

• 1:22:47Speaker 00

  Obama's an easy one, who else?

• 1:22:49Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, gosh.

• 1:22:52Steven Bartlett?

  I like Bernie Sanders as well, another guy that I just, I, I connect with and I think he's very authentically driven to make the world a better place. And I see that in your story as well. I see, you know, when you hear your, your upbringing and you hear, you know, what your parents went through and your grandparents went through and that the plight of your, those that came before you, you see that, you can see a clear reason why. Sometimes I struggle with that. Sometimes I struggle to understand why people are going into politics. I think it's because of status or because they want to be famous or they want power.

• 1:23:22Steven Bartlett?

  But, but I don't see that in you. I don't see, you know, you had a very well paid job before you chose to, to embark on this career path. And your origin story is riddled with all the motivation one would need to pursue such a path. So, so thank you. Thank you for coming here today. I wish you the very, very best on your reelection. I, I applaud you on the fact that knife crime has gone down since you became Mayor of London. And I would hope that by the time you leave office, this city feels a lot safer than it currently does for me. I really do hope we hit our carbon emissions targets by 2030. I hope we're able to build more housing. And I hope London holds its status in the world as, as a place that people want to come live and stay long, long beyond their own sort of personal successes. So, yeah, thank you so much.

• 1:24:05Speaker 00

  That's been a pleasure. Thanks, Lauren.

• 1:24:07Steven Bartlett?

  And thanks for the kind words you said at the start. It's very uncomfortable for me to hear that, but.

• 1:24:10Speaker 00

  No, but it's important you hear that. And this is one of the things I've tried to do is, is rather than, it's very easy. And you're very generous in your comments about me and my faith and my, my background.

• 1:24:23Speaker 00

  To be the only person in my position of who looks like me, I guess there's only one of me, right? What's fun and the same goes for you, but what you do, which I've tried to do as well in different ways, is put down ladders for others, right? Because there shouldn't just be one guy like you, there should be many others like you. And the same goes in politics as well. And I meant what I said, because the interesting thing about you, and the same applies to you, you ever watch what Idris Elba does or Riz Ahmed or these other guys? Their work ethic. And what worries me is somehow somebody's told young people you can get rich quick. There's a shortcut to being the mayor or running the law firm or being a successful entrepreneur

• 1:25:04Speaker 00

  or being a pop star. You ever listen to what Ed Sheeran did before they became successful? Or Adele or Stormzy, that work ethic. And I meant what I said about you because, listen, obviously, there aren't many people in your positions who look like you, let's be frank, who dress like you, who talk like you, who've got your backstory. Now, you've never asked for your role model, right? You will never meet people who look up to you, but it's a fact, right? And so I'm the mayor, right? And my job is to, you know, do this thing, what I call the London promise. Work hard, I'll give you the helping hand, you can be anything. And I love the way you do it with ease and make people feel if I can do it, you can do it. And that's an art because you don't say it like it's easy, I did it. But if I can do it, you can do it, but you've got to work hard.

• 1:25:50Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And I'm really happy, I'm really happy that we have a London mayor that looks like you. You know, your presence alone as London mayor is a really positive signal to lots of young, ethnically diverse kids that are hoping to set foot in politics. And it's a real shame that you've been treated in terms of the death threats and the online abuse in such a vulgar way, but unfortunately, that seems to be the nature of the nature of the world in social media. Hopefully, we can change that.

• 1:26:14Speaker 00

  Thanks a lot.