Victor Garber on Stage and Screen

Victor Garber is a prolific actor and singer who seamlessly traverses theater, film, and television. He originated roles in iconic musicals such as “Sweeney Todd”, “Godspell”, “Noises Off”, and “Assassins”. Garber also appeared in Oscar award-winning films such as “Titanic”, “Argo”, and “Milk”. You may also recognize him as Jack Bristow from the long-standing ABC series “Alias”. A six-time Emmy award nominee and recent recipient of the Forest City Film Festival Lifetime Achievement Award, Victor Garber has done everything from perform on the Ed Sullivan Show with his 1960’s band “The Sugar Shoppe” to defend a murder trial in “Legally Blonde”. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:05Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 1:36Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio.

• 1:42Speaker 05

  Damn my soul if you must. Let my body turn to dust. Let it mingle with the ashes of the country. Let them curse me to hell. Leave it to history to tell. What I did, I did well. And I did it for my country. Let them cry, dirty traitor. They will understand it later.

• 2:18Alec Baldwin?

  That's Victor Garber, performing the Ballad of Booth from the original Off-Broadway cast recording of Stephen Sondheim's Assassins in 1991.

• 2:30Alec Baldwin?

  Victor Garber is a prolific actor and singer, who originated roles in iconic musicals such as Sweeney Todd and Gatsby. You may recognize him as Jack Bristow in the intrepid TV series Alias, or from his notable roles in Oscar-winning films like Titanic, Argo, and Milk. A six-time Emmy Award nominee, Garber found his love for the performing arts as a child, having grown up surrounded by music and theater in Ontario, Canada. I was curious to learn about his roots as a young performer.

• 3:07Speaker 05

  When I was thirteen, or twelve, I went to Children's Theatre, the Grand Theatre, which still exists in London, Ontario. And it was like, it was beautiful, built in the nineteen, early 1900s. And I, you know, I played Tom Sawyer when I was like eleven. And it was my first starring role, and boy, I just never stopped. I knew, and it was so early, that that's what I wanted to do. So I was fortunate. And I was in a singing group. And then I moved to Toronto when I was sixteen, and then started, my life just kind of went.

• 3:37Alec Baldwin?

  Did you go to Juilliard? Where'd you go?

• 3:39Speaker 05

  No, I didn't, I'm a, I never studied.

• 3:42Alec Baldwin?

  You never studied?

• 3:42Speaker 05

  Never studied.

• 3:43Alec Baldwin?

  Well, I was saying this the other day, that people have an instinctual gift.

• 3:47Speaker 05

  You know, I copied really good actors. But I'm better on the first take. But anyway, yeah.

• 3:51Alec Baldwin?

  Better on the first take.

• 3:53Speaker 05

  I am, actually.

• 3:53Alec Baldwin?

  When you're working all the time and the cylinders are firing all the time, that's when I found it easier to act, because I was always, those juices were flowing, literally. And now I don't work that much. And when I go to work, I'm literally, people don't appreciate this, and you sound like maybe you're the same. Which is, I stand there on the first take, and I go, "What do you do again?"

• 4:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:12Alec Baldwin?

  "What do I do? I forgot what I do." And then you kind of get slowly heated up.

• 4:15Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, I haven't done a play since Hello, Dolly, which was-

• 4:19Alec Baldwin?

  2018.

• 4:21Alec Baldwin?

  I saw this article that you did where you talked about you didn't want to sing anymore. You were going to give up singing. It was painful.

• 4:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:27Alec Baldwin?

  And when, what was the moment, if I can say there was a moment or two where you realized that your voice was changing?

• 4:33Speaker 05

  Well, you know, Hello Dolly wasn't, you know, that role wasn't demanding vocally so much, although A Penny in My Pocket is one of the trickiest, most difficult songs that seems like it shouldn't be, but it's really a hard song to sing. And I finally, the last day, last performance was the only time I felt like I had gotten where I wanted to be. And it's because if you don't really work on your voice every day, you know, singing is, it's a muscle. So I'm actually trying to get my voice back because we're doing this documentary about Godspell, the 1972 production that I did with all those people that became famous. And they're doing-

• 5:13Alec Baldwin?

  Was Cardino in that?

• 5:14Speaker 05

  Well, he, I, I got him that job because I, I was cast in the movie. David Green, I played Jesus with David Green, and he one day called me and said, I'm now going to ask you to play another impossible part. You played Jesus and now I want you to play Liberace.

• 5:32Speaker 05

  That's him, that's two.

• 5:33Alec Baldwin?

  My God.

• 5:33Speaker 05

  And, and I said, I will do it only because you're directing it. Anyway, but yeah, singing is, it's so, I want to sing at this Godspell kind of dinner that we're going to have in, in January in, in LA because Paul Shaffer will be there at the piano and I know he's going to start playing the intro to Save the People, which is the song I started the show with. And I want to be able to approximate something, you know, just to, just to be able, because everybody will want to sing and my muscles have so atrophied. So I'm, every day I get up and for about five minutes I try and I think, no, it's not going to work. So I'm still, I'm still hopeful.

• 6:10Alec Baldwin?

  Well, let me then, I won't talk about your current singing career because there is none.

• 6:14Speaker 05

  Right.

• 6:15Alec Baldwin?

  And we'll talk about your former singing career where I-

• 6:17Speaker 05

  Massive, a massive singing career.

• 6:19Alec Baldwin?

  Well, no, listen, so you originated the role in Assassins, you do, in the first production of Assassins. So in a world that you and I both I'm sure would recognize is, you know, that just all the oxygen gets sucked out of the room where you're with Weidman.

• 6:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:33Alec Baldwin?

  And Sondheim.

• 6:34Speaker 05

  Sondheim is why I came to New York.

• 6:36Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 6:36Speaker 05

  When I was a kid in Toronto, I heard Anyone Can Whistle, the first actual musical he wrote, well, he wrote the music and lyrics for.

• 6:45Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 6:46Speaker 05

  And I used to play that to death. And we talked about this and I've actually written about it. It was like a siren call. That music and that sensibility was what brought me to New York. And then I ended up in Sweeney Todd, you know? I remember so distinctly, and my memory is spotty, but I do remember that first preview of Sweeney Todd, when I came back to my dressing room and I closed the door and I just stopped and I thought, I have achieved my dream, to be in a Sondheim musical.

• 7:20Alec Baldwin?

  Who were your cohorts in Sweeney Todd?

• 7:22Speaker 05

  Angelo Lansbury and Len Carey.

• 7:24Alec Baldwin?

  No.

• 7:25Speaker 05

  Of course, that was the original company.

• 7:27Alec Baldwin?

  The original company.

• 7:27Speaker 05

  Yeah. So it's hard for me to, you know, I see the, and there's been some wonderful productions, but nothing will, I remember watching them from the wings every night singing Have a Little Priest, which is one of the Sondheim's masterpieces. And it will never be, ever, ever be done like that, ever. Well, of course it won't because they were themselves, but it's, when I say it's indelible, it really is.

• 7:52Alec Baldwin?

  And who directed Sweeney?

• 7:54Speaker 05

  Hal Prince.

• 7:55Alec Baldwin?

  Oh, him.

• 7:55Speaker 05

  Oh, him, yeah.

• 7:57Alec Baldwin?

  But when you go on to do Assassins, I keep focusing on that because I can compare two productions. I've seen Sweeney with different people. I loved the movie that Tim did, I did.

• 8:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:06Alec Baldwin?

  And I know a lot of people didn't care for it.

• 8:08Speaker 05

  No, it was, yeah.

• 8:09Alec Baldwin?

  I really thought it was good, it was one of the best things Johnny Depp ever did.

• 8:11Speaker 05

  Yes, I agree.

• 8:12Alec Baldwin?

  And the barber scene that they do with Sacha Baron Cohen.

• 8:15Speaker 05

  And Helena was great.

• 8:16Alec Baldwin?

  Oh, my God, I really love that movie. My daughter, Ireland, and I, my older daughter would watch it all the time. But there was something, but when I saw you do that and you sing that song, that's when I fell in love with you. I would watch that show with you. Then there's the benefit you did with Patrick Cassidy.

• 8:33Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 8:33Alec Baldwin?

  Did the concert version.

• 8:34Speaker 05

  As Carnegie Hall.

• 8:35Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah, you did a concert version.

• 8:37Speaker 05

  That was, that was, well, we just sang that song. It was a Sondheim, yeah, Scott Ellis.

• 8:42Alec Baldwin?

  Like a Sondheim tribute?

• 8:43Speaker 05

  It was a Sondheim tribute and they asked us to do that. And I'll never forget it because I've never been, I've never been more nervous in my life. I mean, I, you know, Carnegie Hall and some, for some reason. I was able to, I guess, just disassociate from the experience and just be in the moment. And I've never sung it better. I'm so glad it's recorded. I think it is recorded.

• 9:07Alec Baldwin?

  You did a beautiful job.

• 9:08Speaker 05

  Well, thank you. But it was life-changing to be a part of that. And then Nathan and I did Wise Guys, and that was the end of Sondheim Love Affair. That one didn't go so well.

• 9:18Alec Baldwin?

  Didn't go so well. You and Nathan did.

• 9:20Speaker 05

  Nathan Lane and I, we were so excited about it. And the show evolved into, I think it became roadshow eventually. It's been done. And John Doyle did a production of it. I didn't go near it because I couldn't bear going to see it. Because it was such a painful time for me and for Nathan. He saw it, he gets, he sees everything. But anyway, that was an unfortunate, you know, for many reasons.

• 9:45Alec Baldwin?

  When you go into something like that with armed with that crowd.

• 9:48Speaker 05

  With high expectations.

• 9:49Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah, well, people who they have the highest expectations, quite frankly.

• 9:52Speaker 05

  And so did we.

• 9:53Alec Baldwin?

  You included.

• 9:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:54Alec Baldwin?

  When it doesn't, do you smell it a mile away? As you're going along, you're going, I don't know. You're on the phone with your friend and you're just going, I don't know.

• 10:02Speaker 05

  Well, Nathan and I, we were, that's just the two of us. I mean, we were sort of the main characters. So we were always like, I don't, I'm not sure. I mean, and I don't want to, you know, it was a combination of personalities and the creatives, you know, the side of it, that weren't really working together as one would hope. And also, I think the concept was kind of a misfire. I think it was, they wanted to do it as this kind of Crosby, Hope, roadshow kind of thing. And it was much too dark and complicated so that it never really gelled. And I, I don't know what it ended up being, because I never saw it, but again.

• 10:41Alec Baldwin?

  That you guys were gone and it went on without you?

• 10:42Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. No, it was many, many versions of that show.

• 10:45Alec Baldwin?

  And then who eventually opened?

• 10:47Speaker 05

  Well, they didn't do a Broadway production. No, no, it wasn't on Broadway. It was a, it sort of toured around.

• 10:53Alec Baldwin?

  Now, people list you in Wikipedia or these really common sites for the show as Canadian actor. You've confused yourself as a Canadian actor? Do Canadians have to have that in there for their cred back home?

• 11:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, but I've just been, you know, I'm about. To get the Order of Canada, so I have to be really careful.

• 11:08Alec Baldwin?

  You're the Canadian activist.

• 11:10Speaker 05

  I normally wear my pin.

• 11:11Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah, your jacket, your blazer.

• 11:13Speaker 05

  Marty Short, Eugene Levy, Paul Shaffer, and I finally got mine. And it was, it's a great honor. It's sort of as big as you can get in Canada. It's like getting a knighthood or something.

• 11:23Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 11:24Speaker 05

  But nobody cares as much. It's an enormous honor and we're going to Ottawa next week. And I was honored at my hometown about a month ago as a Lifetime Achievement Award in London, Ontario. And they now have this film festival in London, Ontario. I know you'll be charming at the bit to get there, but it's.

• 11:43Alec Baldwin?

  I'll go if you go.

• 11:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, okay.

• 11:44Alec Baldwin?

  You did two Shakespearean actors.

• 11:46Speaker 05

  I did with Brian Bedford.

• 11:47Alec Baldwin?

  Oh my God, when I saw you do that, you put a spell on me. I'm not just, as an actor, you put a spell on me. I've tried to do that play so many times and everybody said the same thing after you guys did it. You don't see it in New York anymore. Why? There's a big cast.

• 12:00Speaker 05

  Too many people.

• 12:00Alec Baldwin?

  A lot of people.

• 12:01Speaker 05

  Brian and I talked about this even then, that it should be a movie. And it was a life-changing experience for me because I'd never really done Shakespeare. And now I'm suddenly doing all these scenes from Shakespeare.

• 12:12Alec Baldwin?

  You were Forest.

• 12:13Speaker 05

  I was, yes, Forest.

• 12:15Alec Baldwin?

  You were Forest and he was the Brit.

• 12:17Speaker 05

  Yes, McCready.

• 12:18Alec Baldwin?

  Yes, McCready and Forest, yeah.

• 12:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, who were rivals and the story is so.

• 12:23Alec Baldwin?

  It's wonderful.

• 12:24Speaker 05

  Story.

• 12:25Alec Baldwin?

  The biggest riot in New York and the highest death toll from a public riot in history up to that point. Hundred and forty people, I think, died or something.

• 12:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was.

• 12:33Alec Baldwin?

  You and Bedford.

• 12:34Speaker 05

  He was really great to work with. He really liked me. And so he was very generous with me and also we had very little to do on stage together. So that was probably the best thing because it could have gone very awry.

• 12:49Alec Baldwin?

  I like to act alone.

• 12:51Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 12:51Alec Baldwin?

  Well, I like you over there.

• 12:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:53Alec Baldwin?

  But I'm here and you're over there.

• 12:55Speaker 05

  I'm just fine on my own. He was remarkable and I loved doing that play. I loved doing that.

• 13:01Alec Baldwin?

  My God, I loved doing that. I loved you in that play. I loved it. And that storyline where the boy wants to come with you, the young man, man is gonna come with you.

• 13:08Speaker 05

  It's such a compelling story and and also it could be so beautiful to look at.

• 13:13Alec Baldwin?

  So, once you come to New York, what year is that?

• 13:17Speaker 05

  It was in the seventies to do the movie of Godspell, early seventies.

• 13:21Alec Baldwin?

  You didn't stay or you did?

• 13:22Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I had to get a green card. I knew that I always wanted to be on Broadway. That's always my dream and to work with Sonheim. And so I actually worked illegally for a while because I didn't have a social security number. But I do now. I've had a long time. I was just, I had to live in New York City. The first job I did in New York was at the original Roundabout Theater, which was underneath the grocery store on 26th and 8th Avenue. Titanic, just before it moved to the new theater, that's where it opened. And I went back there for the first time to see Titanic. And that was the first theater I'd ever worked in. It was still, you know, this.

• 14:06Alec Baldwin?

  So the Roundabout is somewhere else, but that's what's the theater there now?

• 14:09Speaker 05

  It's not, it's gone. They.

• 14:11Alec Baldwin?

  Titanic was when?

• 14:13Speaker 05

  It was a couple of years ago, when they opened it, before they moved to, I think it's Daryl Roth's Theater or one of those theaters.

• 14:20Alec Baldwin?

  But I remember seeing there on Union Square.

• 14:22Speaker 05

  Union Square, yeah. But before that, the first place they did it was the first job I ever had with Beatrice Strait, who you probably won't, do you remember Beatrice Strait?

• 14:31Alec Baldwin?

  Of course I do.

• 14:32Speaker 05

  Yes, she won, you know, an Oscar for a seven-minute scene in Network. And she was a very, oh, what's the word, wealthy, that's the word. She was from a very famous family in England, a very fancy school over there. She was the most generous and kind of maternal, she was a fantastic woman and she took care of me. And I played Oswald and she played mother. Mother gave me the son. And that changed my life. I got a Theater World Award. That was the beginning of everything for me. And also, the fact that I sort of came into New York doing an Ibsen play

• 15:11Speaker 05

  saved me from being a musical theater actor, which is what I, you know, I longed to do and did, but I didn't want to be typed. And that was kind of a great way of doing it.

• 15:23Alec Baldwin?

  Once you have a beachhead here and you're doing plays here, how quickly after that, like by what year do you pivot where you're making more films and TV?

• 15:32Speaker 05

  No, movie, there was not a steady climb at all. I mean, the first movie I did, Paul Schrader cast me in a movie called Light Sleeper, which came out of the blue.

• 15:42Alec Baldwin?

  With Willem Dafoe and Susan Sarandon.

• 15:44Speaker 05

  With Willem and Susan Sarandon, yeah. It's a really good movie and he-

• 15:47Alec Baldwin?

  He's a drug dealer, right?

• 15:48Speaker 05

  Yes, he's a Swiss drug dealer and, you know, like, who else but me to play that role?

• 15:52Alec Baldwin?

  What's the Swiss touch in drug dealing?

• 15:54Speaker 05

  It's, it's, I don't, can't remember exactly how I spoke, but I was young. I was young and, but I didn't really get, movies were late in my life. I think by Titanic was I was in my 40s already and, and so, yeah, I, my movie career was very spotty. First Wives Club, I think, was the, the first movie I did. And that was a long time.

• 16:16Alec Baldwin?

  But the thing is, is that, like, when you, before Alias, obviously, and after Alias, you know, when you have success, you're, as long as you're successful, you're welcome out there. They all want you to come. Did you shoot Alias in the, in LA?

• 16:28Speaker 05

  Yes, well, J.J. Abrams, you know, changed my life, your fat show. Because that was, how he saw me in that role was still, I'm not sure how he did, but it worked. And Ron Rifkin, you know, two people, and we were, we were both spies. And we both were pinching ourselves that we were a part of this. And, uh, you know, everything changed after that. But it was never, I always felt like I was not really a part of the movie world.

• 16:55Alec Baldwin?

  You felt that way?

• 16:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, I mean, my friends, you know, Bill Hurt and Kevin Kline and, you know, because, and they were straight and I wasn't. And I think that was a great-

• 17:03Alec Baldwin?

  You think so?

• 17:04Speaker 05

  Oh, I, I know so.

• 17:05Alec Baldwin?

  Really?

• 17:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:06Alec Baldwin?

  So you know, and it was, without getting into great detail, it was conveyed to you by other people's behavior, posture, tonality, like you were around people who they just weren't-

• 17:16Speaker 05

  Well, just that I wasn't being seen for roles that I, I could have been seen for.

• 17:19Alec Baldwin?

  Yes.

• 17:20Speaker 05

  You know, I may not have gotten, ironically, the one show that I, the movie that I was up for and nearly got was The World According to Garp.

• 17:27Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 17:28Speaker 05

  And John Lithgow, me, and a wonderful actor. Oddly enough, two straight men and one gay man and the straight man both, anyway, I didn't get it.

• 17:37Alec Baldwin?

  No, no, no, Abrams, there was none of that. He wanted you and that was it. He didn't really give a shit about-

• 17:42Speaker 05

  No, he just- He saw something in me and I had it. You know, I didn't know I could do it, honestly.

• 17:49Alec Baldwin?

  Well, I mean, I think anything with a guy smart and handsome and charming and urbane is in your field of gravity, but so she becomes a big star on that show.

• 18:00Speaker 05

  Jennifer.

• 18:01Alec Baldwin?

  Jennifer Garner is, that's her big breakout thing is doing, what was the character's name again?

• 18:05Speaker 05

  Sidney.

• 18:06Alec Baldwin?

  Sidney.

• 18:06Speaker 05

  Sidney Bristow.

• 18:07Alec Baldwin?

  Sidney Bristow, and nothing was more fun than watching Jennifer Garner in some karate tights kicking the shit out of somebody or whatever she was doing on that show.

• 18:14Speaker 05

  Well, she was a masterful, I mean, that changed television, that show.

• 18:17Alec Baldwin?

  I know, in what way do you?

• 18:18Speaker 05

  Well, because there was nothing like it, ever.

• 18:20Alec Baldwin?

  Ever.

• 18:21Speaker 05

  I mean, that pilot is considered one of the great pilots, it's actually worth seeing the pilot, again, because it's just one of the great pilots ever done.

• 18:29Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 18:30Speaker 05

  And JJ directed it and he created it and, and then everything, you know, then there were a lot of wannabes after that, but, but nothing ever quite was, I guess, I get stopped all the time about that show.

• 18:41Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 18:42Speaker 05

  You know, mothers and daughters and people, and there are people just discovering it, and it's thrilling because it meant a lot to me, of course.

• 18:50Alec Baldwin?

  But I'm always assuming, and it sounds to me like you, it was also partly a lack of interest other than being viewed a certain way, and that is that, you know, before Alias and certainly after Alias, didn't you want to park yourself up there and just reap the benefits, the benefits in the town? You know, I always find that town, there's a success begets success, you go and do a big hit show and you're lining up your next show as that show's rapping, I mean, it's like stepping on stones over a pond or something, you know?

• 19:18Speaker 05

  Well, I, in fact-

• 19:20Alec Baldwin?

  Never wanted to live out there?

• 19:21Speaker 05

  No, I, I, what happened exactly is what you're saying. I, I did two more pilots. They were interesting, not quite good enough, obviously. The one I did love was Eli Stone. Greg Berlanti did, and that was the first, I think, the first series that included music, because Johnny Lee Miller played, he had an aneurysm and he would go into a fit and everything would be sung. And George Michael was actually on that show. It's actually worth seeing. It's a really interesting.

• 19:55Alec Baldwin?

  I'll try, I'll grab that.

• 19:56Speaker 05

  Eli Stone, it's really.

• 19:57Alec Baldwin?

  That's the name of the episode.

• 19:58Speaker 05

  That's the name of the show.

• 19:59Alec Baldwin?

  Of the show.

• 20:00Speaker 05

  And we did 12 episodes. And I said to Reiner, I remember then, I said, "I can't live in L.A. looking for work." I knew I would fall into a very dark hole. And we left. We moved back to New York. He didn't want to leave because he loves the beach, but now we're in, you know, Sag Harbor, so he's very happy.

• 20:22Alec Baldwin?

  Actor and singer Victor Garber. If you enjoy conversations about acting and musical theater, check out my episode with Richard Kind.

• 20:31Speaker 06

  I know I should be much wealthier. I do everything, I have said this before, I am the Costco of acting. I come in quantity and I come cheap. And that's what it is.

• 20:42Alec Baldwin?

  Like toilet paper.

• 20:43Speaker 06

  Like toilet paper.

• 20:44Alec Baldwin?

  Bulk.

• 20:45Speaker 06

  Yes, instead of buying 12 rolls at the CVS.

• 20:47Alec Baldwin?

  Get a case.

• 20:48Speaker 06

  You got 26 for the same price. Yes, that's me.

• 20:52Alec Baldwin?

  To hear more of my conversation with Richard Kind, go to here'sthething.org. After the break, Victor Garber discusses Stephen Sondheim's controversial musical assassins and originating the role of John Wilkes Booth.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren.

• 21:34Speaker 05

  To this day, Ordinary would not have done anything and I would have not been able to put it out if Book Talk didn't back it up and if my wife and her friend didn't back it up.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 21:44Speaker 05

  Pretty crazy how like, just one thing.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:46Speaker 05

  I mean, you, I bet you, we could point to nine different things in our careers where it's just one thing, all of a sudden, if that one thing didn't happen, then I wouldn't be here.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  What you're talking about right now is what I've been talking about since the beginning of my career. There's these things outside of you that make everything happen. These other forces somehow came into contact with each other and helped propel you to this place.

• 22:11Speaker 05

  It's just insane.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Experience before the moment. A Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 22:51Speaker 05

  This is Jonas Knox from Two Pros and a Cup of Joe. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford ability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks. Combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 23:31Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Victor Garber originated the role of John Wilkes Booth in the 1991 off-Broadway production of Stephen Sondheim's Assassins. Despite the powerhouse writing and acting talent, the show was initially not well-received by audiences.

• 23:53Speaker 05

  People didn't like it. It was very, you know, we were all waving flags. Well, I wasn't. I forget what was going on, but it was all, you know, you know, make America great. It was the New York Theatre Workshop.

• 24:04Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 24:05Speaker 05

  We were the off Broadway, we were the original production.

• 24:07Alec Baldwin?

  The original production.

• 24:08Speaker 05

  And thank God, there's an album to prove it. The first time I heard that music.

• 24:13Alec Baldwin?

  Right.

• 24:13Speaker 05

  Thought, how does anyone create this? This is, there just has never been, certainly in a modern world, I mean, there's just no one ever before since.

• 24:26Alec Baldwin?

  What I loved about this is, what you've always had in these roles you've played in the theatre, whether you're singing or not, is great acting inside the singing.

• 24:35Speaker 05

  Oh, thank you.

• 24:36Alec Baldwin?

  Because I say to people, you've got to be able to try to do both. Someone said to me, oh, New York City Ballet and.

• 24:41Speaker 05

  American Ballet Theatre.

• 24:42Alec Baldwin?

  American Ballet Theatre. Someone said to me, well, one is they're the better dancers and the other are the better actors.

• 24:48Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:49Alec Baldwin?

  You don't see both.

• 24:50Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 24:50Alec Baldwin?

  So my, not insistence, but my penchant for the man or woman that can sing and act inside the musical theatre has always been, and you've been always like one of the greatest I've ever seen in my life, and in that song, you hear you acting, you know, the way you play, very real. It's real. It's not some, you know, other kind of thing.

• 25:09Speaker 05

  You know, I honestly thank you. It means a lot to hear you say that, but I don't understand how you can't do it if you don't try to be real. You feel that what's going on emotionally, that's what makes it resonate to an audience, and that's God given. I never thought about it, you know, I never thought, how do I act this song? I just lived the moment that I was in and I happened to be singing. It's really simple, but I'm, you know, I go to the theatre a lot and I'm not going to drop and say any names, but it is astonishing to me that people think what they're doing is acting. I mean, I'm really just, I think, I don't believe one word you're saying, and the audience is buying it and everybody's having a good time.

• 25:54Alec Baldwin?

  Always.

• 25:55Speaker 05

  Always, always. But I just find, you just have to work harder than you think to get to that place. And I think a lot of people just don't want to put in the extra mileage, you know, it's that it takes to really embody, because we're, all of us are so complicated. People are complicated and we go through so many, in a day, so many moods and changes and, and you have to be able to facilitate that on a stage. I just went to see Peter Gallagher in his play.

• 26:25Alec Baldwin?

  What is he doing?

• 26:25Speaker 05

  He's doing a Left on 10th. It's charming play that Susan Strowman directed. And we were talking about it and he's really good. And, you know, I've known him my whole life. I've known Peter Gallagher. I was saying, my God, I just, he said, you're so great. And he said, and I said, I don't know if I could do this. He said, it's eight shows a week. I said, I know, that's what I'm saying. He said, I don't know if I can do it. He said, and I thought, and he reminded me why I don't think I really want to do that.

• 26:58Alec Baldwin?

  I can't really so much. I mean, I want to do it and I will, but I couldn't do it so much because of my kids. Like to have not see my kids five nights out of the week. Monday you're off, Sunday night you're off.

• 27:08Speaker 05

  You do eight shows a week, you have one night off, one night.

• 27:11Alec Baldwin?

  Now, you didn't study. You did not have a professional training. And would you recommend people get some of that training somehow? Or you don't think it's necessary?

• 27:19Speaker 05

  Oh, no, I definitely think you, I just, I wasn't able to find the people to, I mean, you know, Joan Later, who's my singing teacher, she got me through more than.

• 27:28Alec Baldwin?

  The Joan Later.

• 27:28Speaker 05

  The great Dame Joan. She got me through a lot of things in my early years as, you know, because she, and she talks and she's, she's an actor's, you know, teacher. She loves that. But no, I know, I think you do whatever you need to do to feel like you know what you're doing on a stage, you know? I just, I learned from watching great actors. I thought, what is, what are they doing or not doing? And Brian Bedford was one of them in Stratford. When I saw him in a play, I learned so much from watching him and working with him too. And that's how I just figured it out.

• 28:06Alec Baldwin?

  I tell people, learn to sing. I said, when you're young, when you're training, I said, go and take as much voice as you can, movement. I said, you're cutting yourself off from half the business.

• 28:15Speaker 05

  Right.

• 28:16Alec Baldwin?

  And I'll never forget Boyd Gaines, who I did a movie with, he had a small part in the movie I did, and I love Boyd Gaines.

• 28:21Speaker 05

  I do too.

• 28:21Alec Baldwin?

  And when he did Contact, Ed Lincoln Center, I could be a member. And I go see him, I'm sitting there going, oh my God, look at this guy.

• 28:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:29Alec Baldwin?

  This guy who's always been a wonderful stage. Actor and worked in film and television, but like this is like his defining moment.

• 28:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:36Alec Baldwin?

  To play that guy who is seeking some release and some freedom in his life by dancing.

• 28:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:41Alec Baldwin?

  You know, and enjoying himself.

• 28:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:43Alec Baldwin?

  I watched Boyd Gaines in Contact. I almost died. I thought, look at him. And I've always said to people, write me a musical. Where I'm a person who learns to sing, who can't sing.

• 28:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:53Alec Baldwin?

  Maury Esten gets me at a party.

• 28:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:55Alec Baldwin?

  Mr. Baldwin, do you sing? And I said, no, I don't sing. I said, it's, I'd go to prison if I sang. And he says, Mr. Baldwin, nonsense. He says, I said to Dustin Hoffman, he said the same thing to me and I said, sing Yankee Doodle Dandy in the style of Jimmy Durante. And Hoffman goes, I'm a Yankee Doodle. Then he goes, sing the Star Spangled Banner in the voice of Louis Armstrong. Oh, see, can you see? And he goes, you see, you're on key. You can sing when you pretend to be somebody else.

• 29:25Speaker 05

  That's perfect.

• 29:26Alec Baldwin?

  He says, when you're singing, you must pretend you're somebody else. You don't sing in your own voice. Your own voice is terrible.

• 29:32Speaker 05

  I'm gonna do that when I get home today. See if I can hit those notes. Oh my God, it's a great idea. I'll just pretend I'm someone else.

• 29:39Alec Baldwin?

  But this idea of me wanting to sing, I have the soul of a singer. It's the same with you do impersonations. I'm not that good at that either. But the point is, whatever ear you have for that, that's the same music in impersonation, sound.

• 29:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:52Alec Baldwin?

  It's all the sound in your skull. And I look at people, I say, learn how to sing.

• 29:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's invaluable. And it also opens areas of your body and your head. And I think it's really healthy. I think it's really healthy to sing.

• 30:05Alec Baldwin?

  Here's the power of that kind of performance, of clear, unfettered, unvarnished piece of your soul coming out. You know what the first show I saw on Broadway was? Shenandoah with John Cullen.

• 30:16Speaker 05

  Oh, wow. I never, I never.

• 30:18Alec Baldwin?

  I was a kid.

• 30:19Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 30:19Alec Baldwin?

  I'm going on a school trip and John Cullen goes, this here land is Anderson land. By the sweat of my brow. And he's singing the song and I'm going, oh my God, look at this fucking guy. He's standing in front of you. He's so many feet away from you and he's doing that in front of you and laying himself bare and putting himself out there. And I was like fifteen or sixteen years old and I was like, wow, that looks hard. It looks like work. Like you have to learn how to do something. And it wasn't until years later that I started to say to myself, acting is hard to do it well.

• 30:49Speaker 05

  Yes, that's what I was whining about a few minutes ago. It's harder than you think. Right. And you have to work harder than you think. I saw Len Carreyu in A Little Night Music. Before I worked with him, before I knew him, I was with my mom. Glynnis Johns was... That was my first Sondheim live show that I'd ever seen. I was young. And Len Carreyu blew my socks off. Because that guy, it was a singer who, everything that he sang was coming from an organic place. And you were... It was completely compelling. And he's still, you know, he's... I still, I worship him. I worship him.

• 31:33Alec Baldwin?

  Victor Garber. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend. And be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeart Radio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Victor Garber details the changes he's seen over his time in show business, and how increasingly difficult it is to find good material.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by my friend, John Legend. So you're helping Will.i.am write hooks. What made "Ordinary People" become the one song from those sound checks you knew you had to make your own?

• 32:32Alec Baldwin?

  I was just writing for the Black Eyed Peas. I wasn't expecting to write something for myself in that session. But I wrote the hook for "Ordinary People." And I recorded a demo, and I'm like, I would rather keep "Ordinary People" for myself. This station in Chicago, WGCI, they start playing it before we're promoting it. The song spoke for itself. It became the defining song for my first album. I knew it was special, but you never know how special it's going to be and how much impact it's going to have.

• 32:58Speaker 03

  And you never believe that you're going to actually change people's lives with a song. Experience before the moment. A Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 33:11Speaker 05

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• 33:41Speaker 06

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• 34:23Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Victor Garber has been a working actor for over 50 years. Of course, over that period of time, the way entertainment is consumed has changed dramatically. In the era of streaming, there is an endless amount of what networks simply refer to as content. I wanted to know if he found compelling projects more difficult to come by these days.

• 34:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, listen, I haven't, I haven't done anything for, you know, I was doing a series in Canada for four years. It was actually quite well-written and it was, you know, you know, but it was a weekly show. But I do have to say, we've been watching Say Nothing, which is, I highly-

• 35:07Alec Baldwin?

  The IRA one?

• 35:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's, it's-

• 35:09Alec Baldwin?

  I've heard a lot of people say that, yes.

• 35:11Speaker 05

  You know, you have to have subtitles on because they talk so fast.

• 35:13Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 05

  And it's really hard to follow-

• 35:14Alec Baldwin?

  I have subtitles on everything now.

• 35:16Speaker 05

  I do too.

• 35:16Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Speaker 05

  It's, it's, Say Nothing is, I think, one of the best things I've seen on TV in-

• 35:20Alec Baldwin?

  Did you see Disclaimer?

• 35:22Speaker 05

  No.

• 35:22Alec Baldwin?

  I liked it.

• 35:23Speaker 05

  Who's that? Who's doing that?

• 35:24Alec Baldwin?

  Kevin Kline.

• 35:25Speaker 05

  Oh, Kevin, oh, I-

• 35:26Alec Baldwin?

  Kevin's back on TV.

• 35:26Speaker 05

  No, I watched the first-

• 35:27Alec Baldwin?

  Back on the screen, yeah.

• 35:29Speaker 05

  And, and he was great. Yeah, I know, I, I meant, yes, I want to watch that.

• 35:32Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah. Yeah, I remember, we were really wonderful. Sasha Baron Cohen.

• 35:36Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 35:36Alec Baldwin?

  Really great cast.

• 35:37Speaker 05

  Is that a-

• 35:37Alec Baldwin?

  I'm forgetting her name, Leslie Nandville.

• 35:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:40Alec Baldwin?

  And I'm one of those people who, I mean, I'm not, I'm not ashamed to admit this, I mean, I was crying when The Crown was over.

• 35:46Speaker 05

  Oh, I loved it.

• 35:47Alec Baldwin?

  I love, I could, I could go to watch The Crown for the next 10 years.

• 35:49Speaker 05

  I know.

• 35:49Alec Baldwin?

  I wanted, I wanted 15 seasons of The Crown.

• 35:52Speaker 05

  I know, I know.

• 35:52Alec Baldwin?

  I really did.

• 35:53Speaker 05

  I know.

• 35:53Alec Baldwin?

  All right, my last question for you is, when you have an evening, I mean, that doesn't involve friends and the socializing with all of your echelon of friends and this business you've been, you've conquered so well and so beautifully over the years, what's entertainment for you? Are you like ballet, theater, symphony, music concerts, or you don't really, it's mostly theater and film?

• 36:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, we have a great movie theater in Sag Harbor and we go watch movies there. It's a beautiful theater.

• 36:20Alec Baldwin?

  Sure it is, yeah.

• 36:21Speaker 05

  And they've renovated, Eric Fishel and April Goranek-

• 36:24Alec Baldwin?

  April Goranek.

• 36:24Speaker 05

  They've saved our town.

• 36:26Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 36:26Speaker 05

  So, we do go to the movies and we do try to watch a lot of, you know, Our Friends on, in shows, you know, we had, which we, we love to watch Our Friends. We went to see The Hills of California the other day.

• 36:38Alec Baldwin?

  How was that?

• 36:38Speaker 05

  I think it's one of the better plays I've ever seen. I think it's fantastic. I highly recommend it. Because everyone, now and then, you know, you, you see something and you think, oh, this is why I wanted to be in this business, you know, and, and, and the acting in it and the, and the writing, it's, it's, you know, Sam Mendes directed it and it's, the acting is, Jes Butterworth, you know, is arguably one of the best writers ever-

• 37:00Alec Baldwin?

  Who's the cast?

• 37:01Speaker 05

  All Irish people that I didn't know, but the one, the woman who is the lead is married to him and her name. And she's on Say Nothing and she's devastating. She's, and she's, it's really beautiful play. Um, very, very disturbing and in the way you want to be affected in the theater. So I recommend that one.

• 37:21Alec Baldwin?

  Well, you say that you don't want to do a play again. And I want to say to you, I want to inform you right now that that decision might not be left to you alone, actually.

• 37:30Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 37:30Alec Baldwin?

  You may, we may pass a law in Congress if you don't get up there and do it.

• 37:35Speaker 05

  Or if I don't get a citizenship.

• 37:37Alec Baldwin?

  If you don't get, fine. You had an early career with a folk band?

• 37:41Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 37:42Alec Baldwin?

  1960s folk band?

• 37:44Speaker 05

  Oh, yes, we were on the, the Sugar Shop is what you're referring to.

• 37:47Alec Baldwin?

  Is that what it's called?

• 37:48Speaker 05

  The Sugar Shop, yes. S H O P P E.

• 37:51Alec Baldwin?

  E, of course, yes.

• 37:52Speaker 05

  Don't forget the E.

• 37:52Alec Baldwin?

  Canadian.

• 37:53Speaker 05

  A double P E. We were a Canadian group that became successful for singing a Canadian song for the Centennial. And it was like a Mamas and Papas version because we were obsessed with the Mamas and Papas, my friend Peter and I. And we started this group and he was really talented at arranging. And we had really good singers, me and two women and Peter play the piano and, and do the arrangements. And we signed a deal with Capitol Records. I mean, I don't know how it happened. We were like Fifth Dimension. We were, that's what we were, we were. And we actually recorded Lauren Nero's Save the Country. And it was on the flip side of a, of a single. And the Fifth Dimension copied our version and they got a hit with Save the Country.

• 38:36Alec Baldwin?

  Who wrote the songs for Sugar Shop?

• 38:38Speaker 05

  Well, the Sugar Shop, we, we paid for it. We, we.

• 38:41Alec Baldwin?

  You hired people to write songs?

• 38:42Speaker 05

  Lauren Nero, who people don't realize was one of the greatest songwriters of all time. And we knew her and we were friends with her and we recorded Save the Country. And it was on the flip side of a song called Poor Papa, which was a 1920s song that we, and, and that got, was on the easy listening charts.

• 39:00Speaker 06

  Now the Sugar Shop sing Save the Country.

• 39:04Speaker 05

  That's us.

• 39:05Speaker 06

  Save the country.

• 39:10Alec Baldwin?

  You're like Eric Carmen.

• 39:12Speaker 05

  Oh, don't say that.

• 39:13Alec Baldwin?

  You're like the hair, the hair, your hair.

• 39:16Speaker 05

  I was like nineteen.

• 39:17Alec Baldwin?

  Like the breaking wave on the ocean, your hair. With the foam in it. And you're just so sexy. And look at you're wearing that. You look like you're in Dukes of Hazzard.

• 39:26Speaker 05

  I went to the East Village and got a chain link vest. And God only knows whatever happened to that.

• 39:33Alec Baldwin?

  I have loved you as a performer. And you're always the most gracious person in the world.

• 39:37Speaker 05

  You have always been so kind to me, Alec. I remember when we started, we actually tested for a pilot. The same pilot in L.A. And I remember you walked through the room and you were so nice. And I thought, boy, that is the handsomest man I've ever seen. I did. I remember distinctly. And neither of us got the role. But I remember you were always so kind to me. So I'm grateful for that.

• 40:04Alec Baldwin?

  My love to you.

• 40:04Speaker 05

  Love to you.

• 40:07Alec Baldwin?

  Actor and performer Victor Garber. I'll leave you with a little more of the Sugar Shop performing Save the Country live on the Ed Sullivan Show in 1969. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.

• 41:03Speaker 06

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• 41:31Speaker 03

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• 42:01Speaker 05

  Hey, what's up? This is Kelvin Washington from The Odd Couple with Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra. Two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shoptoyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Hello?

• 42:40Alec Baldwin?

  Hey, it's me, your wallet.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Oh, hey.

• 42:43Alec Baldwin?

  I was just wondering if we could maybe take it easy this week?

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 42:47Alec Baldwin?

  Really?

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Yep. I'm shopping at Food Lion.

• 42:50Alec Baldwin?

  Wait, you mean low prices?

• 42:51Speaker 02

  And MVP savings.

• 42:53Alec Baldwin?

  Oh, you do care.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Obviously.

• 42:56Alec Baldwin?

  Okay, I feel better.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Good. Now, let's go get some snacks. At Food Lion, low prices and MVP savings make it easier to shop for what you need without spending more than you have to. When your wallet needs a little TLC, head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.