481 - $8 Million in Today's Money

On today’s episode, Karen covers Phoenix’s Serial Shooter and Georgia tells the story of the Flannan Isles Lighthouse Mystery. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

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• 0:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, grow up because it's almost impossible.

• 0:12Georgia Hardstark?

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• 0:15Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Whether you want a mystery, a true crime story, or something completely different, there's always something new to listen to.

• 0:29Karen Kilgariff?

  New members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com/mfm.

• 0:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Audible, stories that speak to you. Goodbye.

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• 1:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello.

• 1:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:27Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 1:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And this is that true crime podcast that your sister told you about 10 years ago.

• 1:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And that you finally listened to, or haven't.

• 1:39Karen Kilgariff?

  If you haven't, how are you hearing this right now?

• 1:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Do we sound funny? Is this funny?

• 1:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a zen cone.

• 1:45Georgia Hardstark?

  She said we were funny. She said we were supposed to make you laugh, but too bad. How's it going?

• 1:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Good. How are you?

• 1:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Good. I just binged Ione Skye's new memoir, Say Everything, so I'm in that kind of this 80s mentality, like 80s tell-all, everything mentality.

• 2:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And how is that mentality affecting your life?

• 2:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I think very vulnerable, I think. And I want to sleep with John Cusack, but that's it.

• 2:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that's the way to go, though.

• 2:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 2:13Karen Kilgariff?

  When I first saw Better Off Dead when I was like 14 years old, it was like the humor where I was like, oh, there are other people that think weird shit is funny.

• 2:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And then him in the middle of all that, because he had, I'd first seen him as a nerd in Sixteen Candles.

• 2:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And I think this was right after that.

• 2:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause he's a little older, a little taller. And I was just like, this guy is it. He is, I think many, many girls in the eighties were just like, it was like, he was cute, but he wasn't Rob Lowe intimidating cute. And he was super funny and super real. And he seemed a little sad. It was like all the things you love.

• 2:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's like accessible, however, it's hard to look at. I mean, she tells all, you would love it. I think it's a, it's a really good, vulnerable, like honest book. And she's really weird too. So I, I feel like it speaks to me in a, I want to be a cool girl way.

• 3:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Don't we all?

• 3:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, she is.

• 3:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Wasn't she married to, talk about cool girl, wasn't she married to, was it Diamond My D from the Beastie Boys? Or was it Adam?

• 3:17Georgia Hardstark?

  She was married to Mike D. Yeah.

• 3:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 3:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Like.

• 3:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Her and Kathleen Hannah.

• 3:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Get cooler than that.

• 3:23Karen Kilgariff?

  How much cooler do you want to be? God.

• 3:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. What about you? Anything you're binging?

• 3:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it was just my 55th birthday, which is the Sammy Hagar birthday.

• 3:35Georgia Hardstark?

  What does that mean?

• 3:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't drive 55. It's the Sammy Hagar hit.

• 3:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 3:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Of the eighties. If you want to talk about the eighties.

• 3:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Happy birthday.

• 3:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. It was nice. I went to Petaluma. It was on Mother's Day. So I have a holiday birthday. It happens.

• 3:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's hard.

• 3:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's not great when your mom's dead. So there's a little, you know, you're getting flowers and you're like, is this, is this positive? Is this negative? But.

• 3:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I've said this to you before, the older you get, the less your birthday, you do definitely stop doing that. Like it's my birthday week and we have to go to dinner on Tuesday and this on Friday, whatever. It truly becomes this thing of like, I just don't want to, I just don't want to talk about it.

• 4:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, but everyone else wants to. So you like have to do it for them.

• 4:17Karen Kilgariff?

  That's true.

• 4:18Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't have to do anything for them, I guess.

• 4:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, ultimately no, but you have to be able to receive. So you can't, I can't say, I should say, like, just ignore it because people want to let you know that you matter to them and that they love you. And they're glad that you lived yet another year.

• 4:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And it's kind of the only like acceptable time during the year for them to say that. You can't just randomly bust that out.

• 4:41Karen Kilgariff?

  You shouldn't.

• 4:42Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, on a Tuesday.

• 4:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God, I'm so glad you survived.

• 4:46Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 4:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Nothing, nothing.

• 4:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I have a really funny gift for you, but it's visual and you have to touch it. And we're not in the studio right now, so next week when we're in the studio, you're gonna get a belated hilarious birthday gift that I bought months ago when I saw it on Instagram. And I was like, I have been holding it and waiting for your birthday.

• 5:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, nice.

• 5:05Georgia Hardstark?

  But now it has a lot to live up to, so it better fucking be funny.

• 5:08Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what? Also, that just reminded me that we took last week off for a much-needed break.

• 5:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:14Karen Kilgariff?

  But we didn't do our briefcase presentation, so now we really have to do it.

• 5:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I am glad, because I can't fucking find one. Can you?

• 5:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you really look?

• 5:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. I've looked so much. And I went through my own closet. And I was like, this might work. Is this, you know, I have looked.

• 5:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 5:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's harder than I thought it would be.

• 5:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It is very obscure.

• 5:34Georgia Hardstark?

  It is. It is.

• 5:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Is there such a thing as a business thrift store?

• 5:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 5:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Filled with ties and suits and briefcases? That's sexist. And dresses.

• 5:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And working dresses with shoulder pads, the whole thing.

• 5:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And unisex jumpsuits, you know?

• 5:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 5:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's not be so gendered at work all the time. Come on.

• 5:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Guys, stop.

• 5:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, stop it. Do you want to talk about there is some sad news in the true crime journalism world?

• 6:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. We must say an RIP to the incredible British crime reporter, who we have sourced many times for this podcast.

• 6:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Duncan Campbell. He died at 80 after a very admirable career in true crime.

• 6:14Karen Kilgariff?

  A huge name. He worked for The Guardian. He was a huge name in British journalism. Married to the actress Julie Christie, which is, you know,

• 6:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 6:24Karen Kilgariff?

  A huge accomplishment all in itself. If you haven't seen Shampoo, it's one of the greatest movies of all time.

• 6:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we've used him many times. And, you know, he was a source in the story I told about the great train robbery and in the Hatton Garden heist story, you know, RIP.

• 6:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. True crime journalists are the reason we're all here in true crime podcasting. It's a direct line.

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 6:46Karen Kilgariff?

  So, thank you for, to all the true crime journalists that make these conversations possible.

• 6:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep. All right. Should we do some highlights of our podcast network called Exactly Right Media?

• 6:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do it. So- Over on The Knife this week, Hannah and Pasha share Meg Richter's story. Meg was labeled a troubled teen and sent to Mountain Park Baptist Boarding Academy, a Christian reform school, but was actually more like a juvenile detention center. And they talk all about the corporal punishment and the cult-like atmosphere. It is, those are some of my favorite stories of like, what were they getting away with back then? It's so crazy.

• 7:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's wild. And The Knife, please follow them. They're doing some incredible work. We're so proud to have them newly on the network.

• 7:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're doing really well. That show is becoming a true hit and people are really responding to not just how good it is, like in terms of the topic that everyone's interested in, but how good Hannah and Pasha are as hosts and their conversations are incredible.

• 7:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Thank you guys so much for supporting that. And then over on Varied Bones, Kate Winkler-Bosson and Paul Holes head to 1855 Ohio, where a farmer died under suspicious circumstances. The investigation starts out standard with suspects, motives, a few twists, but what unfolds is anything but ordinary. So make sure you check that out.

• 8:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And then over on Do You Need a Ride, Chris and Karen, welcome the hilarious Martha Kelly.

• 8:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 8:07Karen Kilgariff?

  We have a two-parter with Martha Kelly. You know Martha from the television show Baskets. She played the character Martha. She's also on Euphoria. She's been in a bunch of movies. Martha is a stand-up comic, who is basically one of those comics comics that everyone loves. She's one of the funniest people. So we ended up doing a two-parter because we just, we just were like, let's just keep going.

• 8:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 8:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Our work is done here. But she also, if you haven't seen her on TikTok, she's hilarious and you should definitely check it out if you are on TikTok.

• 8:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And over on I Said No Gifts, Bridger remains gracious as ever when Mary Elizabeth Ellis, our friend from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and A Man on the Inside, shows up with an unapproved gift. They talk swamp tours, LA rabbits, and the dangers of chicken Caesar salad. I love Mary Elizabeth. She's the best.

• 8:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Speaking of gifts, we've got some merch news. The MFM Crows Pullover hoodie is here, just in time for summer.

• 9:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I think Alison was being sarcastic when she wrote that. Just in time for summer.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 9:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Wear it to a freezing cold movie theater or just store it away for winter if you want to. But they are some pretty great. I love this design. I love the way they made this sweatshirt. So go take a look at it and see if you don't love it, too.

• 9:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And also, we've restocked the I Shall Never Submit tees. Inspired by the Pearl Heart story from episode 370, you guys love that piece of merch. So check that out. It's available now in both ladies and unisex. And you can see all of our merch at exactlyrightstore.com. Yay.

• 9:39Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 9:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 9:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 9:52Karen Kilgariff?

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• 10:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 10:35Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 10:43Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.

• 10:47Karen Kilgariff?

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• 11:28Karen Kilgariff?

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• 11:39Georgia Hardstark?

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• 11:59Karen Kilgariff?

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• 12:00Georgia Hardstark?

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• 12:06Karen Kilgariff?

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• 12:18Karen Kilgariff?

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• 12:24Georgia Hardstark?

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• 12:29Karen Kilgariff?

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• 12:31Georgia Hardstark?

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• 12:35Karen Kilgariff?

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• 12:39Georgia Hardstark?

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• 12:41Karen Kilgariff?

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• 12:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 12:48Georgia Hardstark?

  You're first, right?

• 12:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I am first. And I'm here with a classic true crime story.

• 12:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 12:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I was not familiar with it when I first heard about it. And then I think it was, uh, Maren probably found it and pitched it. But then I was like, as I read her research, I was like, oh, that's why I thought I heard of this before. And you will see what I'm talking about. So if you want to watch a TikTok about this case, there is a creator named Xevi Universe. So it's at X E V I capital U Universe. And they talk all about this story. If you want to watch a TikTok version and just for anybody that is sensitive to it, there are very brief mentions of violence against animals in this episode. There's very long mentions of violence against humans.

• 13:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So this story starts in 2006. And while this is not a story entirely about Mike Tyson, it does begin at his boxing gym. So this was when Mike was based in the Phoenix area of Arizona, long past his championship years. He is in an enormous amount of debt. Remember when Mike Tyson used to live with fully grown live tigers?

• 13:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 13:57Karen Kilgariff?

  When he lived in Las Vegas and was married to Robin Givens?

• 13:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 14:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, like, he really went for it. So he's in debt, but he's still one of the most famous boxers of all time. So to help pay off his debt, he's gearing up for a world tour. His team's focused on promoting the matches and boosting ticket sales, and that includes him doing interviews here and there with sports reporters. So today at his gym, Mike's set to meet with a local boxing journalist for a quick chat and for some photos. Tyson will later describe this man as a small, polite, white guy. Their time together goes smoothly. There nothing happens. And before the man leaves, he asks to get a photo with him and Mike together. Of course, Mike Tyson agrees. That's that. The guy leaves. Mike Tyson never

• 14:41Karen Kilgariff?

  really thinks much more of it. And then one morning, a few weeks later, Mike is again at his gym, working out, when a SWAT team surrounds the place. Mike has had run ins with the law, kind of infamously. He also grew up in a horrible part of New York City over in Brooklyn. You know, he's no stranger to the police. So he's totally freaked out, has no idea what's going on, and immediately starts apologizing. He's confused, but he's like, what did I do this time? Basically?

• 15:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So a sergeant steps forward, shows Mike Tyson a photo, the one with the boxing journalist from a few weeks earlier, and the sergeant asks how he knows this man. Of course, Mike can't remember anything going wrong during the interview, or why this would be an issue. But he apologizes anyway and says, I'm quote, I must have said something to him. I must have offended him. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that. End quote. It's like, basically, he's like, "They're coming for me."

• 15:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. I need to start immediately apologizing and trying to fix this.

• 15:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So quickly, the officer makes it clear to Mike Tyson, "Mike Tyson's not the one in trouble here." He explains, "The photo was pulled from that man's website, which is what led the SWAT team to Mike's gym." And then the sergeant says, quote, "Mr. Tyson, he liked you, but he didn't like the 28 people he shot or the eight he killed," end quote.

• 16:10Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 16:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Alongside his accomplice, the man in the picture with Mike Tyson spent 14 months terrorizing Phoenix, Arizona with horrific and random acts of violence. This is the story of Phoenix's serial shooter case.

• 16:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 16:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 16:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't remember this yet.

• 16:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It's crazy.

• 16:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Which sounds horrible.

• 16:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horrible and crazy.

• 16:29Georgia Hardstark?

  2006, yeah, like...

• 16:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Basically, a later version of the DC shooter, which we all were very aware of, and it was like on the news all the time. It's like Phoenix's kind of version of that.

• 16:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And everyone there knows the story perfectly, probably, but somehow...

• 16:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sure.

• 16:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It's less in our minds. Okay, wow, tell me everything.

• 16:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So the sources used today are journalist Michael Kiefer's reporting for the Arizona Republic, Gary Grotto and Nick Martin's reporting for the East Valley Tribune, and an interview Mike Tyson gave during an appearance on Jimmy Kimmel Live, where Mike Tyson tells the story himself, which is crazy.

• 17:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 17:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So we're gonna go back one year before the SWAT team invasion of Mike Tyson's boxing gym to May 17, 2005. A man named Tony Mendez, he's a construction worker in his late 30s, is on his bicycle delivering candles to a family who just lost their power at their house. Tony's been struggling with his sobriety, but he's starting to turn things around, trying really hard to turn things around. A big source of inspiration to do this work are his four children, who he wants to strengthen his relationships with. Tragically, on his way to help the family, Tony is shot to death by an unknown gunman with what investigators ultimately determine is a 22 caliber rifle fired from a moving

• 17:49Karen Kilgariff?

  vehicle.

• 17:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 17:51Karen Kilgariff?

  A week later, on May 24th, 2005, another man named Reginald Remiard is randomly and fatally shot with a 22 caliber weapon while in a public space in Phoenix. Reginald was a Vietnam War veteran in his mid 50s who had struggled for years with schizophrenia. He was sleeping at a bus stop when he was shot, and he died of his injuries just a few days later. And then, almost exactly one month later, on June 29th, a 20-year-old man named David Estrada is randomly shot to death. 20.

• 18:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, baby.

• 18:22Karen Kilgariff?

  David is remembered as a star high school athlete and a beloved member of his family. He's camping under an overpass in Tolles, Arizona, about 12 miles from Phoenix on the night he's murdered. His body is found with gunshot injuries to his chest, consistent with a 22 caliber weapon. So then, a few months pass from this murder, and then, on November 11th, 2005, a man in his mid 40s named Nathaniel Schaffner is killed, basically, according to this exact same MO. We don't know much about Nathaniel personally, aside from the fact that he was unhoused at the time that he was murdered. He had had a few run-ins with the police over the years. Nathaniel's body is found in an alleyway in downtown Phoenix.

• 19:07Karen Kilgariff?

  But unlike the three previous victims, investigators determined that Nathaniel was killed with a small gauge shotgun.

• 19:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, now you can immediately see why we didn't hear as much about this as we did the DC sniper. It's because it was unhoused, less fortunate people.

• 19:20Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 19:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And so it gets less coverage.

• 19:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It's people on the street who it's much easier to rationalize or write off as if they want to live on the street or be on the street.

• 19:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Or if they deserve bad things because they can't help but live on it, you know?

• 19:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, yeah. All the moralizing that goes along with it, yeah, good point. So, after Nathaniel's murder, weeks pass, the holidays come and go, and then, at the very end of December, on the 29th, around 7:30 PM, shots are fired at a car parked outside of the ABC bartending school in Tempe, about 10 miles away from Phoenix. No one's injured in this shooting. It seems like... Just this one car has been targeted, which is very weird. But of course, everyone at the bartending school is completely rattled. And the shooter, believed to be firing from a car, immediately disappears before anyone can get a good look. So later that same night, several people and a few animals are shot at random throughout

• 20:20Karen Kilgariff?

  the Phoenix metro area. Two victims are unhoused and believed to be undocumented immigrants. Again, another reason we didn't hear about it. So we don't know very much about their lives, but we do know their names. They are 44-year-old Jose Ortiz and 28-year-old Marco Correa. They're both killed in separate locations, not far from each other, and these shootings take place within minutes of each other. And this leads investigators to believe the gunman was firing from a moving car. Once again, the gun used in both attacks appears to be a 22 caliber rifle. So just one block away from where Marco Correa was killed, another man is shot as he's getting off a bus. His name is Timmy Tordi, and he's in his 30s.

• 21:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Timmy survives this shooting, and he manages to get help. But by the time police are looped in, the shooter's already gone, and the hunt continues. So around 1 a.m. the same night, a 24-year-old Phoenix woman named Clarissa Raleigh is walking down the street alone. She sees a four-door silver car pass her, then pull an abrupt U-turn and come back in her direction. As the car gets closer, Clarissa watches as someone puts the barrel of a shotgun out the window and fires at her.

• 21:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 21:39Karen Kilgariff?

  She instinctively shields her face with her hands, and her hands take the brunt of the blast.

• 21:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 21:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And thank god, a passerby sees Clarissa, like, almost immediately after the attack, and rushes her to the hospital, so she survives.

• 21:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 21:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So it doesn't take police long to connect these December 29 shootings. So all of that happened in one night.

• 22:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus. And so they definitely connected them immediately.

• 22:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because they're so close to each other. The weapon was the same every time. And every time it appeared to be shooting from a moving car.

• 22:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Wow.

• 22:13Karen Kilgariff?

  But Clarissa surviving and being able to give a description of the gunman's vehicle now gives investigators a real lead. So when they check surveillance footage near where Jose, Marco and Timmy had all been murdered, they see the same silver Toyota Camry in that footage that matches her description.

• 22:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 22:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a huge lead in this horrifying case. But then the shootings stop. There are no reports of any shootings that fit this MO in Phoenix for the next five months. But then on May 2, 2006, so the following year, around 10:00 PM, a 17-year-old named Kabili Tambudo is walking home after picking up a few groceries for his mom at a Phoenix convenience store when he's shot with a small gauge shotgun. Kabili's father was shot and killed back in their native war-torn Sierra Leone. But miraculously, Kabili survives this attack. And he manages to get help from staffers at a nearby hotel.

• 23:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 23:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So scary.

• 23:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. That's just like, you can't even fucking walk down the street. Like, come on.

• 23:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 23:17Georgia Hardstark?

  So frustrating.

• 23:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And then 15 minutes after Kabili's attack, a 20-year-old woman named Claudia Gutierrez Cruz is walking home in nearby Scottsdale, Arizona. Claudia just moved to the area a few months before from her native Mexico. And she's just clocked out of work from a nearby restaurant. So, you know, it's that kind of thing. She's just a long shift and she's walking home. And she is shot with a shotgun from a moving car. A Good Samaritan stops and rushes her to the hospital, but she does die not long after she gets there. Between May 30 and July 22, 2006, 15 more people are attacked at random in the greater Phoenix area.

• 23:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 23:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Most of them are shot with a small gauge shotgun from a moving car. Fortunately, all of them survived. Their injuries.

• 24:06Georgia Hardstark?

  How terrifying to like know that if you walk home, you might get shot and maybe you don't have any other option to walk home.

• 24:12Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, like

• 24:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Cause your shift is late and you don't have a car.

• 24:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 24:16Georgia Hardstark?

  That's terrifying.

• 24:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Or like, I think it was Timmy, he was getting off the bus.

• 24:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Somebody was just basically got a ride home.

• 24:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And was probably like a block away.

• 24:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 24:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horrifying.

• 24:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. You want to be like, I wouldn't leave the house, but a lot of people don't have that option. So.

• 24:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Right. Exactly.

• 24:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Awful.

• 24:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And especially unhoused people who are like, I'm just trying to survive out here.

• 24:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So the victims of these additional attacks include cyclists riding their bikes, a man listening to music in his parked car, people standing outside their houses and apartments, a woman who decided to walk home after getting into an argument with her husband. That one is, thank God she lived because, oh my God, the tragedy.

• 24:58Georgia Hardstark?

  The guilt.

• 24:59Karen Kilgariff?

  The guilt and horror. A man who's walking down the street to buy cigarettes and then just random pedestrians just walking down the sidewalk.

• 25:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 25:09Karen Kilgariff?

  So now it's July 30th. It's around 11:15 at night and a 22 year old woman named Robin Blasnik has just left her parents' house in Mesa, Arizona. That's also in the Phoenix metro area and she's walking over to her boyfriend's house. This kills me because this is the kind of thing where it's just like, here's just a description of a regular person, like you're leaving your place, you're going to go over to your boyfriend's place.

• 25:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyday life.

• 25:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. She's wearing pajamas and fuzzy slippers and talking to her friend on the phone as she walks down the street.

• 25:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Like that's how normal and casual this is. Oh my God. Yeah.

• 25:40Karen Kilgariff?

  So after a neighbor hears a gunshot and goes and looks outside, they find Robin lying on the side of the road. And she does end up dying from her injuries.

• 25:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, honey.

• 25:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Investigators believe that those injuries were caused by a small gauge shotgun. Robin's bereaved parents are now forced to endure the grief of her death, having lost another daughter 10 years earlier in a car accident.

• 26:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I bet.

• 26:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horribly tragic. For the Blasnecks and for all the victims' families and their friends, but it just keeps happening. By this point, it's been more than a year of random shootings and the residents of Phoenix, of course, as we're saying, are completely on edge. People don't want to leave their houses for fear of being targeted. And by now, the gunman's being referred to as Phoenix's serial shooter. So, a police task force has already been set up. They're putting all their energy into identifying the suspect. And investigators and forensic experts have collected and analyzed ballistics evidence, surveillance footage, eyewitness testimony, and any other evidence they can find from the crime scenes. So far, they've

• 26:45Karen Kilgariff?

  connected 35 shootings that include multiple fatalities to this so-called serial shooter.

• 26:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 26:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Unfortunately, it's an extremely busy time for investigators in Phoenix because there's also an active serial rapist and murderer

• 27:00Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 27:01Karen Kilgariff?

  ...operating in the area. It's the baseline killer.

• 27:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 27:05Karen Kilgariff?

  So, not only are the citizens of Phoenix totally overwhelmed by all of this violence and murder all around them, but of course, law enforcement would be too, because they're not a gigantic city, having to have multiple task forces for multiple serial killers at one time.

• 27:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for violent criminals, that does seem a little overwhelming.

• 27:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a bit much.

• 27:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Karen Kilgariff?

  So, in July of 2006, a man named Ron Horton leaves a message on a secret witness tip line, and he says that his friend, a guy named Sam Dideman, has been bragging about shooting at random people and animals in public.

• 27:44Georgia Hardstark?

  What? Dude.

• 27:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Ron says that Sam referred to it as, quote, "RVing," which he said stood for recreational violence.

• 27:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 27:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Sam is 31 years old. And you might remember the secret witness tip line from my story about Shirley Landreth on the Tipster Killer.

• 28:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the same one that they have set up there. Yeah. So, again, it's a tip line that really works.

• 28:06Georgia Hardstark?

  But he's not secret, so maybe...

• 28:08Karen Kilgariff?

  No, he's not secret because then...

• 28:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Not as well.

• 28:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he then went to court.

• 28:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 28:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So, he's now on record.

• 28:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Good. Don't keep secrets.

• 28:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So this tip comes in around the same time Robin Blasneck is murdered. So officers reach out to Ron Horton to get more information from him. So Ron agrees to set up a meeting with Sam Diedemann at a local bar. So that the police can actually lay some eyes on him and, and take a look at him. And it's good that they did because Sam gets a ride to that bar in a silver Toyota Camry.

• 28:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 28:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Police identify the driver as Sam's 33 year old friend and former roommate Dale Hausner.

• 28:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn, you know, they were losing their minds when that happened.

• 28:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh God. That kind of stuff were like, especially for stakeouts and stuff where you're sitting there for like 14 hours. And then finally it starts happening.

• 28:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. The exact thing you need and want. Oh my God. What a relief.

• 28:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Wake up, wake up. Don't spill your 7-Eleven coffee. Neither Dale nor Sam has ever been on the investigators radars. Sam's a divorced father. He's an electrician by trade. He has addiction issues. He spent stretches living on friends and family's couches. Dale meanwhile, is described as a doting father of a young daughter. And Dale had his own horrible tragedy in his life. Years earlier, he lost his wife and his two sons in a terrible car accident where he was the only survivor.

• 29:31Georgia Hardstark?

  What? No. Why the, what, why do, oh my God, that's just like confounding because why put other families through the thing that you know exactly how it feels? That's just so depraved.

• 29:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Or is that part of it?

• 29:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 29:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Feel what I feel. Why do I have to be alone in this pain? Everybody else needs to feel what I feel.

• 29:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. Yeah.

• 29:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Dale works as a janitor at the Phoenix airport. He dabbles in sports journalism and promotions and he's a boxing super fan.

• 29:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah.

• 29:59Karen Kilgariff?

  He actually even has a local public access show about boxing. And it is Dale who lands the interview with Mike Tyson.

• 30:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 30:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Just weeks before he drops Sam off at that bar in his silver Camry.

• 30:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. So that already happened.

• 30:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 30:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 30:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So on the surface, these men don't send up any glaring red flags to the investigators. But behind closed doors, Sam and Dale like to get, this is what they do for fun. They get incredibly drunk and then they get high on meth. And then they gamble, shoplift, vandalize anything from cars to businesses and commit acts of arson.

• 30:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Turns out they're responsible for two unsolved arson cases at different Arizona Walmarts on the same day where six people were sent to the hospital for smoke inhalation. And Walmart racked up $5 million in damages, which is how much in today's money? It's only 2,006.

• 30:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Eight mil, eight.

• 30:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That's exactly right.

• 30:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut the book up.

• 30:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Swear to God.

• 30:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 30:55Karen Kilgariff?

  You've done it. It's finally happened.

• 30:57Georgia Hardstark?

  That is crazy. That's never happened before.

• 30:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It's never happened.

• 31:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Ding ding ding ding ding. Is there a thing?

• 31:02Karen Kilgariff?

  There is. Ding ding ding ding ding. Look, there it is.

• 31:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That was it.

• 31:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So during these fires, the water damage is mostly from the emergency sprinklers. And also it's Walmart. Eight million dollars is literally like when you drop $5 on the street and you kind of bum out for two seconds.

• 31:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 31:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So these two men are basically just a horrible rampaging, drug fueled duo who do not give a shit about anybody else.

• 31:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to say like fucking meth, but I didn't do that shit on meth. I like painted watercolors for hours with my friends. Like, it's not meth.

• 31:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly. There's different ways to go about things, but yes, what you do on drugs is your responsibility.

• 31:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 31:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And you cannot just be like, oh, point to the thing that a bunch of other people are on, but are not doing what that is.

• 31:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 31:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't be crazy.

• 31:53Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 31:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, again, if there's any theme of this podcast, it's please don't do meth. We beg you.

• 32:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 32:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So back at the stakeout bar, the police decide they're going to discreetly follow Dale out of the parking lot and they tail his Camry to a local mall. And when Dale heads inside, they slap a GPS device on his car.

• 32:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, love it.

• 32:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? So when Dale eventually heads back to the bar to pick Sam up, the police are now able to track their movements.

• 32:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing. Great work.

• 32:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Great work for a police force that basically is like, uh, there's also normal crime. There's the baseline killer. There's these assholes.

• 32:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 32:32Karen Kilgariff?

  There's just the standard shit.

• 32:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. There's other people on meth all over the place.

• 32:37Karen Kilgariff?

  There's mething, methers mething around all over town.

• 32:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not laughing. It's terrible. We're not laughing at Matthews.

• 32:44Karen Kilgariff?

  No, we are not. We're laughing at other things.

• 32:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I'm just thinking about the sister who's listening to this for the first time and just like horrified that we're cracking up about Matthews.

• 32:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, they thought drugs were funny. It's like, they kind of are in other situations.

• 32:57Georgia Hardstark?

  They can be very funny.

• 32:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so that night, the Camry leaves the apartment complex and they start to just drive aimlessly around town throughout random Phoenix neighborhoods. They slowed down as they approached pedestrians or cyclists, and sometimes they loop back around to pass the same person again.

• 33:16Georgia Hardstark?

  But they didn't stop them?

• 33:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Hold on.

• 33:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Because they could have shot them.

• 33:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Hold on. Okay. As the Camry circles the block, the undercover officers then slow their car down and then yell out the window to these oblivious pedestrians, "Take cover, get the fuck out of here." Basically like, "Go, go, go."

• 33:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit. Okay, that's good.

• 33:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So they did. Without blowing their own cover, they basically were telling those people,

• 33:40Georgia Hardstark?

  "Okay, there's somebody that's gonna shoot you." Thank you for telling me.

• 33:43Karen Kilgariff?

  But I bet you it was literally like the window rolled down like, "Get out of here, that's the shooter." And people ran because this had been going on for so long.

• 33:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 33:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And those were the people that were exposed.

• 33:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Or like, if you see someone slow down near you in a car and you're a pedestrian, you probably just run anyways because yeah, you know what's going on.

• 33:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because of what's been going on. Sure. Luckily, no one is attacked during this drive this night. Police follow the men back to Dale's apartment, and they hear a bit of the two men's conversation, alluding to their disappointment, quote, "Because of the rain." It's unclear what they're talking about, but the police assume that they're mad that they couldn't find a good target because of the weather.

• 34:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So shortly after this, investigators secure a warrant to bug Sam's phone and Dale's apartment. And not long after that, on August 3, 2006, investigators are able to record the two men talking and joking about some of the shootings. And minutes after that, a SWAT team bursts into their homes and arrests both men.

• 34:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man. That had to feel so good.

• 34:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 34:43Georgia Hardstark?

  This is a movie. Like, this has to be made into a movie. It's like,

• 34:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 34:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Perfect.

• 34:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 34:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And it can't be made into one of those movies where suddenly they're the anti-heroes.

• 34:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no. Oh, no.

• 34:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Just putting that out there. So Sam and Dale are interrogated by police separately. Dale shuts down and says nothing, but Sam spills.

• 35:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Mmm, meth.

• 35:02Karen Kilgariff?

  You're only as strong as your weakest link. So according to Michael Kiefer's reporting, quote, "He and Dale," he told police, "were engaged in what they called 'random recreational violence.' There were muggings, stabbings, palm trees ignited, stores set on fire, tires slashed. And the shootings, essentially, they were playing video games in real time while smoking meth."

• 35:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus Christ.

• 35:25Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote. So Sam gives context to several of the shootings. For example, he claims they murdered Nathaniel Schaffner, for example, because he'd thrown a can at them as they were about to shoot a stray dog. So Nathaniel saves the stray's life and is killed in turn.

• 35:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Yvonne. I can't handle that one yet. I'm not processing that right now.

• 35:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Sam also implicates Dale's brother Jeff in at least one unsolved random stabbing that they committed. He also admits that after one drive-by shooting, they'd circled back to look at the victim's body and got caught at the scene when police showed up. So they end up giving false witness statements to the officers and are never suspected of being involved.

• 36:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, someone got reprimanded for that, for sure, right? Like, that's kinda...

• 36:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, God. I mean, but also, as those cops, like, you wouldn't be able to live that down. It would be horrible.

• 36:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Luckily, the victim in that shooting is a man named James Hodges, who was also a Vietnam veteran, and he, although critically injured, does survive.

• 36:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 36:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Sam also tells police Dale had committed several shootings before the two had become friends, which police do believe is true. And Dale is soon considered to be the ringleader in these serial shootings. More damning evidence is found at his apartment. There are several firearms, including a small gauge shotgun and records showing that Dale used to own multiple 22 caliber rifles. They presume he'd either recently destroyed them or gotten rid of them somehow. They also find 22 caliber shell casings in his Camry, as well as scrapbooks containing cutout newspaper articles about the serial shooter.

• 37:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Scrapbooking, like, that, ugh, chills.

• 37:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's just like a movie where it's like, it really is the profiling that they talk about, where it's like, they're in it for the glory and the fame. They're in it for that part. It seems like hacky, but it is real.

• 37:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And like, I could make a joke about how tedious scrapbooking is, and like, I can't even do it with my own happy life, and these fucking monsters are doing it, like...

• 37:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I wanted to make a joke about Joanne Fabrics, and like, where those guys standing around in the aisles, like, no one noticed these two guys on meth scrapbooking?

• 37:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, getting like, measured of bow, ribbon cuttings. I don't know what you do there. But we're not gonna do that.

• 37:49Karen Kilgariff?

  We're not. We don't really do that anymore. As investigators pour through Dale's things, including his computer and his website, they also find that photo of him with Mike Tyson, which eventually leads the police to Mike Tyson's gym.

• 38:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Did those guys just want to meet Mike Tyson? Because he has nothing to fucking do with it, clearly. He's in one photo.

• 38:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, why did they have to go in with the SWAT team?

• 38:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. I'm not, yeah, I, they just wanted to meet Mike Tyson.

• 38:13Karen Kilgariff?

  For sure. And kind of maybe scare Mike Tyson?

• 38:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. Or get their own photos with him? I don't know. It's questionable.

• 38:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So the state of Arizona ends up filing 88 charges against Dale Hausner, which span murder and arson. Sam Diedemann, meanwhile, continues cooperating with the authorities. He pleads guilty to murder and conspiracy to commit murder, and in doing so, ends up avoiding trial himself and the potential death penalty.

• 38:40Karen Kilgariff?

  So Sam agrees to testify against Dale at his trial, which begins in late 2008. And survivors, Timmy Torday and Clarissa Rowley, both give their testimony in this trial, as does a man named John Kane, who crossed paths with Dale at Tempe's ABC bartending school, where Dale had taken courses a while back, and where that parked car was shot at back in late December of 2005.

• 39:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So there was a weird connection there.

• 39:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. And John Kane made that connection for everybody. He testifies that he'd been accused of sexual harassment by a woman affiliated with the school, and Dale had offered to help him out with that situation.

• 39:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 39:22Karen Kilgariff?

  John asked Dale what he meant by that, and Dale told him, "Don't worry about it. You'll know when it happens." So then a few nights later, on December 29th, this woman's car is shot at in the parking lot. John testifies he confronted Dale the next day and asked him, "What the fuck are you doing?" And Dale simply replied, "Taking care of business."

• 39:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God, so it was her car. Holy shit.

• 39:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Problem is, John didn't report Dale to the police.

• 39:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So testimony like this, as well as the overwhelming amount of evidence presented to the jury, undeniably points to Dale's guilt. So in March of 2009, Dale Hausner is convicted on 80.

• 39:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yikes.

• 39:59Karen Kilgariff?

  80 of the counts against him, including six counts of first degree murder.

• 40:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 40:05Karen Kilgariff?

  He's handed six death sentences. And in June of 2013, while on death row, he takes his own life. He was 40 years old.

• 40:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. How the fuck have I not ever, ever heard of this?

• 40:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 40:17Georgia Hardstark?

  None of it.

• 40:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Sam Diedemann, meanwhile, is sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole, and he remains there to this day. So with the convictions of Dale Hausner and Sam Diedemann, and the capture of the baseline killer, Mark Godot, the same year, that all happened in one year.

• 40:34Karen Kilgariff?

  A brutal chapter in Phoenix history finally ends for the victims and their families. There finally is at least a little resolution, but the trauma lingers. And this includes Kabili Tambudu, who was just 17 years old when he was shot, walking home from the convenience store. He has scars from the attack on his arm and on his back, and several of his fingers are permanently paralyzed. And Kabili remembers the moment he found out his attackers had been caught. They had like a breaking news cut into normal TV. And basically, they announced that the serial shooters have been arrested.

• 41:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, what a relief.

• 41:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And Kabili says his first reaction was, man, get those bastards. And then later, he tells reporters, quote, "After I was shot, I was scared of the world. I'd walk down the street thinking, am I going to get shot right now? Now I can take a breath of fresh air." And that's the story of Phoenix's serial shooters who terrorized the city over 14 brutal months in 2005 and 2006.

• 41:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, David Fincher, get on that.

• 41:39Karen Kilgariff?

  For real.

• 41:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine? And the same time, he's also like, it's that slash the serial killer that's going on at the same time, and there's overlap and...

• 41:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And like, what portal to hell opened up in the desert outside Phoenix and crawled into the city in the fucking spring of 2005?

• 41:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, yeah.

• 41:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy shit.

• 41:57Georgia Hardstark?

  There was lead in the air.

• 41:59Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 42:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Great job. That was, I don't know, like, the whole unhoused, it's hard for people to empathize with that. And I understand. So the thing I always think about that I think is important, but my dad lived in his car for periods of my life when he had to. And you just have to remember, like, think of Marty if you need to understand, like, where someone is in their life, that they're doing that, and it's not... They're not a bum. They're a human being trying to live their life the only way they can. And, you know, you just have to remember that.

• 42:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 42:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And like, humanize that.

• 42:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Humanize it and also remember that those people would not be there if there were services in this country that Ronald Reagan took away in the eighties. Such needed services.

• 42:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And every time I see people walking down the street, talking to themselves and looking ragged and skinny, I just think to myself, it was my mom's whole career to make sure that that guy got his meds three times a day.

• 43:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 43:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause it was so important.

• 43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That's how neat, how needed it was. Yeah.

• 43:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so needed and, and that kind of maintenance where it's like, it's a very difficult thing when you have mental illness to take care of yourself correctly. You need support. You need it all the time and that support costs money. That's social well-being.

• 43:20Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a great point.

• 43:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's what taxes are for. If a couple billionaires could kick down, instead of buying their 30th yacht, kick down some fucking tax money, these problems, we wouldn't have to be moralizing. You wouldn't have to listen to your Republican dad rant about unhoused people because we should be better people and we should be taking care of our own. We should see them as our own and take care of them as our own.

• 43:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. You know, and my dad is, you know, as mentally healthy as I am, which is not saying a lot, but he also was a colored graduate and he still had to resort to living in his car at times because.

• 43:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Life can be not what you expect.

• 43:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 43:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And really hard.

• 44:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 44:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Who doesn't know that these days?

• 44:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus, I think about all the time, like my old apartment, if things were the way they were, I would not have been able to afford it. I would have been couch surfing, which is like.

• 44:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, absolutely. I would be living with my dad eight years ago. I think we have talked about that a lot, but it's like, it's easy to go underwater in this country.

• 44:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:19Karen Kilgariff?

  God forbid you fall down and break your leg.

• 44:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God. You're one bill away from fucking destitution for sure.

• 44:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible. Yeah.

• 44:27Georgia Hardstark?

  So, let's just all remember that.

• 44:31Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 44:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 44:40Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 44:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know, and if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 45:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 45:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm, and when you order, write in MFM at checkout, and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.

• 45:34Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 45:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 45:43Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 45:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 45:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 46:02Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 46:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 46:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 46:16Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 46:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 46:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 46:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 46:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services, must be 18 years or older.

• 46:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 46:42Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.

• 46:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E, health.com/murder.

• 46:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 46:50Speaker 03

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• 47:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, are we back? Because I have a very important Corrections Corner.

• 47:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 47:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Before this episode's even over, I went out to pee and Vince corrected me. I didn't know he was listening, but okay.

• 47:32Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a fan.

• 47:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, he is. He's the best. Okay, here's, I'm gonna phrase it like this. Ad rocks down with the Ione. We said Mike D.

• 47:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Mike Diamond, Mike D. Because that's just my favorite name of all of rap.

• 47:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounded not right, and I think I hesitated, but ad, it's like in one of the songs.

• 47:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. Well, I did, I threw it out there.

• 47:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You did.

• 47:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I think I said Adam Yowch, which is very nerdy of me.

• 47:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, and I didn't. But it's Adam Horowitz. Yowch is the other guy.

• 48:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 48:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it two Addams, Vince? What's Yowch's first name?

• 48:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Mike. Mike D. What?

• 48:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Michael Yow, Adam Horowitz. Forget it.

• 48:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, it's what?

• 48:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Vince, what is it? Say their names again.

• 48:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh, Adam Yow is MCA. Adam, Ad Rock is, Ad Rock is Adam Horowitz. Say the last one again.

• 48:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And Michael Diamond is Mike D.

• 48:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, God.

• 48:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You can delete your Instagram comment.

• 48:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 48:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Telling us how dumb we are about Beastie Boys. We love Beastie Boy.

• 48:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Vince is standing by. I've never said I love the Beastie Boys.

• 48:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you don't? I do.

• 48:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I appreciate them, and I got it.

• 48:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Intergalactic is one of my favorite experiences to have.

• 48:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oof, okay.

• 48:54Karen Kilgariff?

  But that first album.

• 48:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that means you don't like them. If that's your favorite out of Beast, the Beastie Boy. Catalog. That means you.

• 49:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But remember, the Beastie Boys broke when I was like a sophomore in high school. So it never wasn't fucking playing. And it was like, like you're on the baseball bus. The softball team and the baseball team had to take the bus together. And then you're just like, we have to listen to this for four hours.

• 49:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I get it.

• 49:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, really torturous. And not, for me, I was more of like, can we listen to Suzanne Vega?

• 49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right. Okay, that's fair.

• 49:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 49:26Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Well, I'm devastated. We're not in studio right now because I have a vintage sweater I was gonna wear that goes with my story perfectly. It's got a ship on.

• 49:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Put it on.

• 49:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, it's too hot.

• 49:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, it's got a ship, it's got seagulls and an ocean view. And here's my story. So today, we're on a desolate Scottish island, Karen. We're doing a fucking 360, by the way, 180.

• 49:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 49:51Georgia Hardstark?

  The island is deserted, aside from a lonely lighthouse and three lighthouse keepers. Until they vanished without a trace. You know this one? You're nodding.

• 50:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You gotta know this one.

• 50:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I think, I was, I think I've seen the movie.

• 50:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like your grandma must have told you this story too. There's no wreckage, there's no struggle, there's no signs of anything. Where or how these three experienced lighthouse keepers could have disappeared from a rocky outpost in the North Atlantic? This is a favorite topic for paranormal investigators and conspiracy theorists. This is the Flannan Isles Lighthouse Mystery. A tale shrouded in fog, fear, and unanswered questions. Thank you, Ally, for that line. It's perfect. All right. Well, the main source for this story is a 1999 article from a journal called Fortuna Studies, called The Vanishing Lighthouseman of Eileen Moore, by Mike Dash, the fourth Beastie Boy. And the rest can be found in our show notes.

• 50:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And this journal, Ally tells me, is about anomalous events. She says it's approached in a practical way with a lot of research. So that sounds really interesting. And also, this fourth Beastie Boy, Mike Dash, was also one of Maren's big sources on the Spring Heel Jack story. So right up your alley.

• 51:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:09Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's. December of 1900 and we're off the northern coast of Scotland, where I'm going to be this summer, on a chain of tiny islands called the Flannan Isles. There's a much bigger chain of islands called the Hebrides off the Scottish coast, and they're known for their obvious stunning beauty. They're popular with outdoorsy travelers, not it. But the Flannan Isles are the farthest west. They're still considered part of the Outer Hebrides, but practically speaking, they're more like big rocks in the middle of the ocean. So island is in quotes, you know what I mean? Like, you wouldn't go summer there.

• 51:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you would, unless you want to go rappelling.

• 51:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. So the Eilean Mor is the biggest island off the Flannan Isles, and it's only of a quarter of a mile across. That's what Ally put. And then I was like, what does that mean to me and Karen? A quarter mile across, you know what I mean? Because I can't guess. So I looked it up. It's 1320 feet, or three football fields.

• 52:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 52:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Or a five to 10 minute walk.

• 52:08Karen Kilgariff?

  All right.

• 52:09Georgia Hardstark?

  So the sides of the islands are sheer cliffs dropping off into the ocean, the tallest of which are on the westernmost point, and these are 150 feet tall. So very, like, picture the Princess Bride cliffs.

• 52:25Karen Kilgariff?

  The cliffs of insanity?

• 52:26Georgia Hardstark?

  The cliffs of insanity. The island has kind of always given people bad vibes for many generations. It's one of those, like, you know, storytelling islands. People have always described a strong sense of foreboding about the whole place. It's home to a tiny stone medieval church with crumbling mossy roofs. Spend a night there, I dare you. And there's some lore about the church, that the pilgrims would first crawl into the church out of superstition before entering it. So it's got, like, creepy vibes.

• 52:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, a lot of churches have creepy vibes. Anyway, also, it's like, it's so funny, because I was thinking about, that's basically driving around Ireland, that's all you see are like, the walls of churches from the 1300s, no longer have roofs. And it is, it's creepy, but then it's like, but if you're in the right mindset, maybe like, have a couple Guinness aboard, you're like, ah, the history. But then if you're like, on an island, and there's like, crazy rocks and crags, you're like, this is horrifying.

• 53:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Like, no one wanted to be there. You know what I mean? Like, they had to make a pilgrimage there, probably.

• 53:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, right.

• 53:30Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not like they could go to the gift shop afterwards or anything fun.

• 53:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 53:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So the island chain, which is sometimes called the Seven Hunters, it's been steeped in legends about a phantom and of course about fairies who live there. There's also stories about a strange and mysterious group of people who once inhabited the island with like, then they say they had different body types and customs than those on the mainland. So just kind of lore, you know?

• 53:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Body types.

• 53:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. It's like, were they like hippie? I don't know. Yeah.

• 54:00Karen Kilgariff?

  They had really broad shoulders and everybody talked about it.

• 54:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Their knees were weird, just weird.

• 54:06Karen Kilgariff?

  They bent backwards.

• 54:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. But this is going back hundreds of years, of course, but at the turn of the century, so the 1900 turn of the century, there's nobody living there. And aside from the tiny crumbling church, there's nothing on the island. That is until 1899, when a brand new lighthouse is built and in comes three lighthouse keepers. Seems like a lot, right? Like, I feel like you become a lighthouse keeper to be alone.

• 54:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I feel like that's how we've always been introduced to lighthouses is like, there's just one guy up there and that's kind of the whole story. But I bet it's a tough job.

• 54:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It seems really tough, but I guess it makes sense that if like, it's not like you are the lighthouse keeper and then you go to your house, you're like staying in the lighthouse, there has to be two people at all times, at least. That makes sense. I answered my own question.

• 54:57Karen Kilgariff?

  You just had to sound it out a little bit. You just had to, you just had to just sit with it for a second.

• 55:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Show my work. Okay. So here we are on the night of December 15th, 1900. Two ships are sailing along the coast. One is called the Fairwind. The other is called the Arc Door. And this is an area known for big storms and massive waves, these, the Scottish weather, especially since the islands are essentially the peaks of an underwater mountain in the middle of the Atlantic. So it's not smooth sailing. And the captain of the Arc Door says, the weather has been a bit stormy lately, but the weather tonight is not particularly noteworthy. As they approach the Ian Moore Island, they are expecting to see the bright beam from the lighthouse. It has 140,000 candle power, which is a

• 55:45Georgia Hardstark?

  unit for measuring brightness. Did you know that? And it should be visible from 24 nautical miles away, which is about 27 land miles away, which is fucking far. It should be shining bright at them. Instead, they're greeted only with more darkness. Oof. The sailors know something is wrong. Even more curiously, and this is more according to legend, some sailors apparently report seeing a rowboat near the island, although how they see it is unclear. And they say that they see men in it, which we can take that part for a grain of salt. It seems that the Fairwind does not actually report anything. So all we know for sure is a report made from the archer's captain. So in the stormy darkness, the archer actually hits a rock, winds up

• 56:29Georgia Hardstark?

  taking on water, which is the whole fucking point of a lighthouse being there is that wouldn't happen. Yeah. So the captain has to beach the ship and it's a whole thing to get it fixed. It takes forever. And so it isn't until 10 days after that, that the captain's finally able to make the official report about what he saw, that the lighthouse on Isleyan Moor was not lit. And this puts us at Christmas Day. So then it isn't until Boxing Day, which is, we all know, the day after Christmas over there.

• 56:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it?

• 56:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. I don't know.

• 57:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Always good to learn about the Brits.

• 57:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I don't know. Want to take another day off. So it isn't until Boxing Day in the year 1900, when the Northern Lighthouse Board, it's like the board of the lighthouse, finally send a boat to the island to see what's going on. This boat is called the Hesperus, and on it is a lighthouse keeper familiar with the island named Joseph Moore. So there are a total of four lighthouse keepers assigned to this lighthouse. So those three that are there and another one, they each take two week shifts away from the island. So the other three who are supposed to be on the island are named James Duckett, who's 43, Thomas Marshall, who's 28, and Donald MacArthur, who's 40.

• 57:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Real quick.

• 57:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Would you ever take a job on a lighthouse island if it was just you, A, B, if it was you and two other people?

• 57:51Georgia Hardstark?

  If I had to choose one of those two options?

• 57:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You can either choose, or you can talk about A and then talk about B.

• 57:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 57:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess it depends on the other two people. What if they're fucking annoying?

• 58:01Karen Kilgariff?

  True.

• 58:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 58:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Two old sailors. How about that? That's who it is. Would you do that?

• 58:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 58:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And/or would you do it by yourself?

• 58:08Georgia Hardstark?

  As a female, 40-year-old female? No. As another old-timey Scottish lighthouse fisherman? Yeah.

• 58:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. They won't hurt you.

• 58:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, okay.

• 58:19Karen Kilgariff?

  They're decent human beings, true gentlemen, fun. They play cards. They love Uno and drinking.

• 58:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Stop it. Giant Jenga. I'm there.

• 58:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Okay. I'm just saying, to me, it does sound like a little vacation-y where it's like, you're just saying I get to post up for two weeks and I kind of don't have to do anything at all?

• 58:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 58:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And there's whiskey. Yeah, like, good whiskey.

• 58:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're helping ships.

• 58:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's okay. Yes, that's my answer. I'm assuming yours is too.

• 58:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:46Georgia Hardstark?

  So Joseph, the guy who's coming over, knows these three men very well, obviously, since he's spent a lot of time, weeks-long shifts with them on the island, doing exactly what we just said, playing Giant Jenga and Uno. And James is in charge, and he's a veteran lighthouse keeper. He has a wife and four children, but Thomas is unmarried, one of the guys. Donald is also married, but it's unclear if he has kids. And he's said to really dislike his job hosting there at the lighthouse.

• 59:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 59:14Georgia Hardstark?

  He's considered an occasional keeper, only filling in when the schedule demands. So it seems like it's the other two guys who'd like actually want to be there.

• 59:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I wonder if it was like really good pay, because it's a pain.

• 59:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Like, fishing in Alaska, kind of a thing.

• 59:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Pays well, but you might die.

• 59:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Or go crazy from just being, just sitting somewhere.

• 59:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Like podcasting.

• 59:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Pays well, but you might die.

• 59:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Just from sitting somewhere.

• 59:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Just from sitting and talking.

• 59:41Georgia Hardstark?

  It's dangerous. Typically, when a northern lighthouse board boat approached the dock at Eileen Moor, the lighthouse keepers would come down the long staircase from the lighthouse to the dock at the bottom of the cliff. Like, they could see a boat coming from far away, and they knew that meant to go downstairs. The staircase has to make a hairpin turn because the cliff is so steep. And as the hisparis approaches, they can clearly see that no one is coming down the stairs to greet them.

• 1:00:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 1:00:06Georgia Hardstark?

  The boat fires a rocket, which ordinarily, of course, would elicit a reaction from the lighthouse keepers, but it is like eerily quiet, not a sign of a person.

• 1:00:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Not cool.

• 1:00:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Joseph gets off the boat to see what the hell's going on. He leaves behind the captain and the small crew. He goes up there alone. No, thank you. And he starts making his way up the stairs to the top of the cliff. And Joseph is gripped by a terrible sense of foreboding while he makes this long climb up the steep hill.

• 1:00:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Me too, during cardio. Every time.

• 1:00:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it gets, makes you lightheaded.

• 1:00:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, this does not feel right.

• 1:00:44Georgia Hardstark?

  This is bad. This shouldn't be happening.

• 1:00:46Karen Kilgariff?

  This is gonna turn out bad.

• 1:00:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I have a bad feeling about this.

• 1:00:51Georgia Hardstark?

  When Joseph gets to the top of the cliff, he enters the men's living quarters at the base of the lighthouse. The doors are closed. Inside, the beds are made. The kitchen is clean. This is almost like creepier than it had been totally overturned. There's one chair knocked over. Just one. That's the only fucking weird thing. You know what I mean? That's creepy.

• 1:01:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Georgia Hardstark?

  All the clocks are unwound, which suggests that no one's been in the residence for at least a week because that's how often the clocks need to be wound. So there's some deduction. So then Joseph goes up to the lighthouse tower and sees that the light itself is full of fuel. It's clean. It's functional. He also finds a canary in a cage, which was kept at the top of the tower, for some reason. The canary is starving, but still alive. And then I wrote peachy.

• 1:01:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Peachy, bitter little bird.

• 1:01:43Georgia Hardstark?

  A bitter little bird.

• 1:01:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I wonder if that they're kept there for some kind of a, like if there's a gas escaping.

• 1:01:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like a canary in a coal mine.

• 1:01:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, type of thing. I mean, I guess, I don't, that's really weird. Or maybe they were just keeping a bird.

• 1:01:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe it's just company.

• 1:01:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Although I think that thing was probably really loud.

• 1:02:00Karen Kilgariff?

  You know you're in a bad spot when you need bird company.

• 1:02:04Georgia Hardstark?

  When you need bird company or a bird to tell you if the air is safe to breathe.

• 1:02:08Karen Kilgariff?

  That's like extreme living.

• 1:02:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Get a dog.

• 1:02:12Georgia Hardstark?

  At this point, Joseph is like, oh, fuck, runs down the stairs, summons more people from the boat to come help him search the island. Two men return to the island with Joseph, while the captain takes the boat back to the mainland to send a telegram to the Northern Lighthouse Board. The telegram opens with, "A dreadful accident has happened at Flannan's." So they're already like, there's nowhere like. Could have gone, something's fucking wrong.

• 1:02:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's bad.

• 1:02:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Joseph and the two other men stay on the island to keep the lighthouse lit and to keep trying to figure out what's going on. On the western side of the island where the steepest cliffs face is, so there's a little tramway that was built to haul supplies from the ships. This tramway has iron railings and the men find that the iron railings have been bent fully in half. On a path that runs along the same cliff near the tramway, there's usually a canvas life preserver attached to a bolt in the rock face, like really high up, and that's been ripped away. And a scrape of canvas is still connected to the bolt. Almost like a monster came and just fucking flung everything. There's also a very sturdy bolted down box, which usually contains

• 1:03:21Georgia Hardstark?

  supplies. That's gone. And there's a larger boulder on the island that's always been in one specific spot seemingly immovable, and that's been dislodged and rolled away.

• 1:03:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck. Wait, where is it? Is it further away? Or do we know? Or is it gone?

• 1:03:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. It says rolled away, meaning maybe it's still there. So probably still there?

• 1:03:41Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 1:03:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Now, all of this points to, obviously, as you said, an extreme storm. However, the weather on the day the lighthouse was first reported to be dark, December 15th, was maybe a little stormy, but not super remarkable. Also, the people who put in those things, the tram and the supply box and the rock, probably did so having known what the strongest storm was going to be.

• 1:04:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:04:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:04:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:04:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. They didn't just like put it in there and be like, I hope no storm is worse than a normal storm.

• 1:04:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I hope nothing crazy and big and windy happens out here in the middle of the ocean.

• 1:04:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, exactly.

• 1:04:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Fingers crossed.

• 1:04:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you'd think there'd be plans. But there was a massive storm a few days later, but that wouldn't explain the light being out days before, right?

• 1:04:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So giving further credence to this having happened before the big storm, Joseph can pinpoint when during the day on the 15th, something must have happened based on the chores around the lighthouse. They've clearly been done. And they do things at a certain time, probably, and make beds and have a like they're organized, right?

• 1:04:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I hope so.

• 1:04:50Georgia Hardstark?

  They're not living in chaos. He knows when the men completed all of their morning work and that whatever happened to them must have happened in the afternoon because that morning work had been completed, which I love the deduction there.

• 1:05:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, like they're not waking up one day and it's mayhem and they have to run all over and forget to wash the dishes because they have to run out and do a thing. It's like normal day as far as you can tell.

• 1:05:12Georgia Hardstark?

  They're not like us. There's not like, you know, chip bags next to their beds until they decide to clean them up three days later.

• 1:05:19Karen Kilgariff?

  If someone came into this office I'm in right now, they'd just be like, oh, things are not okay with her. She's hoarding, she's lightly hoarding like printer paper and she's got a lot of clothes that she wants to drop off at the Goodwill, but she's simply not doing it.

• 1:05:36Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no way she's a lighthouse keeper, essentially.

• 1:05:39Karen Kilgariff?

  She's not qualified.

• 1:05:40Georgia Hardstark?

  She's not qualified. She's never done it.

• 1:05:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And she needs to stop asking.

• 1:05:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so then back in the lodging quarters, James and Thomas's waterproof coats are missing from their hooks, but Donald's coat is still there. So that kind of explains some, but not totally what's going on. Joseph turns his attention-

• 1:06:02Karen Kilgariff?

  While you're describing this to me,

• 1:06:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna write down my theory.

• 1:06:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:06:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, I just-

• 1:06:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Do it.

• 1:06:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Something popped into my head.

• 1:06:07Georgia Hardstark?

  If you write the word wave down, I'll be very angry. Rogue, you write Rogue Wave-

• 1:06:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And then recommend the band Rogue Wave.

• 1:06:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we should start a band called Rogue Wave.

• 1:06:17Karen Kilgariff?

  There is a band called Rogue Wave.

• 1:06:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I know.

• 1:06:19Karen Kilgariff?

  They're the best.

• 1:06:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. So then Joseph's like, let's go to the logbook. There's a logbook, turns out. And there he finds some strange entries. So the log is generally supposed to be about weather conditions and practical matters. It's not your fucking love life. You're just supposed to be like, here's what happened.

• 1:06:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Fog rolled in.

• 1:06:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Fog rolled out. The end.

• 1:06:39Karen Kilgariff?

  The end.

• 1:06:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Dear diary. But in the days leading up to the disappearance, there's one entry that simply says, James Ducut, irritable. And another says, MacArthur crying.

• 1:06:52Georgia Hardstark?

  So what the fuck? That is, to me, the creepiest part of this, like, and the most like, something else is going on story.

• 1:07:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Georgia Hardstark?

  The last entry from December 15th says, quote, "Storm ended. Sea calm. God is over all," end quote.

• 1:07:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh oh.

• 1:07:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So that, like, now we're talking about, like, why I'm telling this story on the podcast. Like, that's fucking creepy.

• 1:07:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Because the idea of, like, the threat of a terrible storm is kind of argued in the logbook?

• 1:07:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Because there shouldn't be any logbook entries about people crying, or someone being irritable, or something going wrong. It's supposed to say, "This storm, that storm," maybe some fucking longitudinal, longitudinal numbers, you know, basic stuff that you and I wouldn't really understand or think is interesting.

• 1:07:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. I got you. It's technical. It is not personal.

• 1:07:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:07:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That whole thing. That's why you were saying, "It's not Dear Diary in any way." Also, especially back then, I would think it's a pretty big goddamn deal to write down that a man is crying.

• 1:07:55Georgia Hardstark?

  A man's crying and irritable, and also those men would have access to the logbooks and would have seen that someone wrote that about them. So it's just kind of weird.

• 1:08:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Now, I will say, and I have to say this, in fairness, some people think these entries were forged. And also, they appear to have first come into public consciousness in Pulp Magazine articles after the fact, but they are always mentioned in every retelling of this story. So it's up to you if you want to believe them. I think it's true.

• 1:08:23Karen Kilgariff?

  We might as well believe everything at this moment.

• 1:08:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it.

• 1:08:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And then we can change our mind later.

• 1:08:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So the most popular working theory, let's get into some theories, is that some kind of bad weather or waves that started damaging the box of supplies that was ultimately washed away, like, they went after that supply box. So James and Thomas, whose coats were missing, ran out to start securing the box, and then something happened, and then Donald ran out without his coat, which is why it was left behind, to help them. And people believe that they were all swept away by a massive wave. "When the superintendent of the Northern Lighthouse Board visits the island to make his own inquiry, this is the conclusion he comes up with." Sure, it makes sense. After the disappearance, a photographer visits the island in bad weather and documents

• 1:09:09Georgia Hardstark?

  the massive waves that can reach up and over the top of the cliffs, which, fuck, can you imagine? Like, take me home.

• 1:09:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, when, if the storm is that bad and the waves are that big, then you can assume there's some nice, strong gusts of wind that are whipping all over that island as well.

• 1:09:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. This is what's wrong with me is I don't think about stuff like that. So I bring a dumb cute jacket and then I'm fucking freezing and soaking wet wherever I go.

• 1:09:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I've been with you when it's been 13 degrees in Washington DC and you're like, I've got this leather jacket and

• 1:09:40Georgia Hardstark?

  That's it.

• 1:09:41Karen Kilgariff?

  A bear, an address and bare legs and I'm just gonna do this thing.

• 1:09:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I definitely, I'm real cocky.

• 1:09:47Karen Kilgariff?

  When you're in California, you're

• 1:09:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Real cocky. So it is possible, just strange that it happened on the 15th when no one seems to have noticed particularly bad weather. Like, they would have noted it and other sailors would have noted it.

• 1:10:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  If there were bad weather. And it's also highly unlikely that all three men went out at one time because someone always had to stay back at the lighthouse. So this would mean that there had to have been multiple massive waves to wash all three men away. So, so we're not believing that one.

• 1:10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay. Great.

• 1:10:18Georgia Hardstark?

  No, we can, but we're not. Then we start getting into other theories about disagreements between the men that led to some sort of violence. Remember there was that one chair knocked over? People point out that MacArthur had hated working at the lighthouse and was actually known to have a history of fighting, but there's really no hard evidence that points to anything having happened between the men. And then, of course, we have to get into the paranormal, the fun stuff. What was that show when we were kids? Amazing Stories.

• 1:10:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I don't think I ever saw that.

• 1:10:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:10:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing Stories. I'm gonna look that up.

• 1:10:50Georgia Hardstark?

  So when we talk about the paranormal, there are the legends about the fairies and the phantom and the group of original islanders. Those all come up, of course. And then the theory is that one of these forces was resentful for the new lighthouse because remember it had just been built.

• 1:11:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And so it took out the three lighthouse keepers for that reason.

• 1:11:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:09Georgia Hardstark?

  And of course, you can't escape the theory of fucking aliens.

• 1:11:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Aliens?

• 1:11:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Aliens.

• 1:11:15Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:11:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And actually, this is explored.

• 1:11:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Scottish aliens.

• 1:11:19Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no. The lighthouse keepers are an alien. The aliens come down.

• 1:11:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:11:24Georgia Hardstark?

  You just don't think they'd go to Scotland.

• 1:11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I just don't. I think that that's where they're gonna get the most resistance, the most fist fighting.

• 1:11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:11:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Anywhere, Scotland, Ireland, you just don't mess with those island people.

• 1:11:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You absolutely should not.

• 1:11:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't do it.

• 1:11:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And actually, that theme is explored in an episode of Doctor Who. That's how they disappear.

• 1:11:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:11:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So, the lighthouse continues to operate with lighthouse keepers without an incident until the 1970s, when it becomes automated, which is like, you know.

• 1:11:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Tragic.

• 1:11:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And it's inspired lots of retellings in pop culture. The band Genesis, I thought you'd love this, recorded a song called "The Mystery of Flannan Isle Lighthouse" in the late 60s.

• 1:12:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:12:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Your favorite band.

• 1:12:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Love that band.

• 1:12:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And in 2019, Gerard Butler starred in a very loose retelling of the mystery called "The Vanishing."

• 1:12:18Karen Kilgariff?

  "The Vanishing."

• 1:12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Karen Kilgariff?

  If Gerard Butler stars in it, I've definitely seen it, because that was my friend Jacob and I. We would watch Gerard Butler movies as they came out on Amazon together. Like, we would hit play at the same time and then text each other during the movie.

• 1:12:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's cute.

• 1:12:33Karen Kilgariff?

  So, I've literally not missed a Gerard Butler movie for like, five years. It's wild.

• 1:12:38Georgia Hardstark?

  What do you recommend? What's the best one?

• 1:12:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it depends on what you're looking for. There's one where, is it aliens attack? Or it's like, the end of the world kind of situation? And he has to go... Gerard Butler's always playing like, a rock-like character. He's like, a very noble father who has to go get his family and maybe his wife who's trying to leave him, but he convinces her to stay because he rescues them.

• 1:13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, like a Pedro Pascal kind of a thing.

• 1:13:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:13:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:13:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it. Well, that wraps up the story of the Flannan Isle Lighthouse mystery.

• 1:13:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't get a chance to give my theory.

• 1:13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. What was it?

• 1:13:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Gigantic gust of wind. So the guy that stays behind, whose jacket is there,

• 1:13:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:21Karen Kilgariff?

  watches the two guys get blown off the cliff and into the ocean.

• 1:13:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Like, you're gonna be like, fuck protocol.

• 1:13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  You're gonna fucking go down there and be like, at least could I throw them that life preserver that's stuck to the side of the cliff or something?

• 1:13:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:13:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, in a panic, but the wind would still be going.

• 1:13:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:13:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he gets out there and just also gets blown off. I like that one. That was good.

• 1:13:41Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Thank you. Yours was great. Mine was a stretch, but let's just keep it.

• 1:13:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, we want to sometimes talk about things that are more fun to talk about.

• 1:13:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:13:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And maybe mysterious, but not, you know.

• 1:13:55Georgia Hardstark?

  A total downer.

• 1:13:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Not the worst thing you've ever heard. We just try to turn it every once in a while, just to bring it up before we leave you hanging.

• 1:14:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Before you leave.

• 1:14:03Karen Kilgariff?

  For the rest of your week.

• 1:14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And you made it and you did it and we're proud of you.

• 1:14:09Karen Kilgariff?

  We're so proud of you. You are the lighthouse keeper of our souls.

• 1:14:13Georgia Hardstark?

  We really are. We would never automate you. We would never.

• 1:14:16Karen Kilgariff?

  No, we can't.

• 1:14:17Georgia Hardstark?

  We can't. And we won't.

• 1:14:19Karen Kilgariff?

  We need you, a real human in that lighthouse, the lighthouse of podcasting.

• 1:14:23Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:14:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And so thank you for doing it.

• 1:14:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 1:14:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And stay sexy.

• 1:14:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:14:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:14:39Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:14:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

• 1:14:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:14:46Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:14:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:14:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:14:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:15:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.

• 1:15:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:15:15Speaker 04

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 1:15:28Speaker 05

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair,

• 1:16:12Speaker 05

  paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 1:16:15Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:16:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:16:57Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wisecrack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:17:13Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:17:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot. Goodbye.