Jocko Underground: What To Do if a Heavy Duty Ex-Con is in Your Jiu Jitsu Class.

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 188, sitting here with Echo Charles. We got some questions from the troopers, you, and we are going to provide guidance, answers, courses of action.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:12Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Bro, sometimes life is a maze, sometimes.

• 0:17Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Can be tricky. It'll feel like a maze, it'll be like a maze, it'll quack like a maze.

• 0:22Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  It's a maze sometimes.

• 0:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Well, sometimes, you know, all you need is one guy to be like, hey, I know this, where you are right now.

• 0:28Jocko Willink?

  Take a left, go straight, and then second door on the right.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Exactly right. Then you're in the clear, you're ready. See what I'm saying? Take that next step.

• 0:35Jocko Willink?

  That's what we're doing.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  That's what we're doing. All right, first question. Hey, Jocko, love the podcast and grateful for all the advice every week. I've been training at a certified Gracie University Jiu-Jitsu School for almost a year now. I love our instructors, fellow students, and I'm excited to be a part of a system that Henrin here on Gracie created. However, a new student now attends along with a friend who films him for a documentary on how he's improving his life after prison. Being curious and also because I work in law enforcement, I looked into it further. Didn't have to look far because he has an episode on Netflix called "I Am A Killer." He shot his then, so this is what the episode is about.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  He shot his then-girlfriend in the face, then after hearing police sirens, left their baby, went to his side-piece's house, side-girlfriend's house, and according to her, had sex with her that night. Fast forward to now, he was released from prison three years early from an involuntary manslaughter and felonious assault sentence, essentially because he wrote to and won over his daughter, an old friend, who is now his wife, that he married while still in prison, who's a Christian minister. Anyway, he's now attending my Gracie Combatist class, which I'm not cool with training with him at all, but, but again, I love the program.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Gracie University does, does student background checks in sex offender registration only. So he's in the clear to continue training Jiu-Jitsu here. I'm of course leaning towards leaving, and I'm currently signed up for a couple of trial classes at other Jiu-Jitsu schools in the area, but I thought I'd ask you for advice, especially because this sucks, leaving the Gracie's awesome, Gracie University system. Thank you, guys. Appreciate any advice.

• 2:26Jocko Willink?

  That's an interesting scenario to be put into. Um, it's a little test where you're at, you know what I mean? In terms of, do we believe in forgiveness? Do we believe in second chances? You know, I talk about forgiveness a lot. Uh, are there some things that cannot be forgiven? I kind of think there are. I maybe I'm not enlightened enough, but I know there's certain things that could happen in my world that there would be no forgiveness. There would only be vengeance.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah.

• 2:57Jocko Willink?

  Now, I guess we also have to ask, is there such a thing as true rehabilitation? Like, can a person truly be rehabilitated? Can you be rehabilitated from being a drug addict? I think you can. I've seen that before. Someone that used to be addicted to drugs and now they're not anymore. Someone that used to be a thief and now they're not anymore. Someone that used to be a criminal, now they're not anymore. Someone that used to be a murderer and now they're not anymore. These things have happened. Sexual predator is a little different though, I think.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah.

• 3:35Jocko Willink?

  I think that's a little different. There's some wiring. There's a lot less, uh, what's the term? Like, there's a lot less just survival instinct of like, oh, I, you know, I need to make money or I get addicted to this thing, but you know, being a predator seems like you have a wire that's crossed somewhere.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Well, like a compulsion, a compulsion kind of urge thing that you can't like get a handle of kind of a thing.

• 4:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Jocko Willink?

  So, we're kind of asking ourselves these questions, right?

• 4:17Jocko Willink?

  So then here's, here's the thing. So let's, so those are some, those are some kind of like philosophical questions we gotta ask, right? Can people change? Do we forgive them or not? Uh, and again, like

• 4:32Jocko Willink?

  this dude got out of jail after manslaughter, killed a girl? Like that seems to be

• 4:39Jocko Willink?

  um, the kind of thing that's not very easily forgiven.

• 4:44Jocko Willink?

  So, um, let's look at it from a more pragmatic thing. Okay. Um, does the jujitsu school know about this individual's background? Right? Like

• 4:54Jocko Willink?

  and are you in an environment where you could tell them what the background is if the instructor doesn't know? Like the instructor might not know, oh yeah, guy used to be in prison. Now he's here and they never figured out quite what he's in prison for.

• 5:09Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, are you in an environment where you could inform them without? You know, kind of just causing a bunch of drama and problems where now, oh, you tried, you ratted me out and I'm getting kicked. Like you see what I'm saying? There's, there's some drama that's not worth it. Yeah, yeah. Um, can you just stay there and keep an eye on the guy? Like, you know, maybe you, you pass judgment after a year, you're like, oh no, this guy's still a dirtbag. Or you know what? Man, this guy was a drug addict at the time and he was crazy and he went to prison and he cleaned himself up and here's where he's at now. And okay, I kind of understand. You know what I mean? Like maybe you could, maybe he could earn your forgiveness or maybe he could not.

• 5:51Jocko Willink?

  So there's that. Um, or do you just leave? Because it's a lot of drama, bro. I don't like drama. You like drama, Echo Charles? Like you, you and I don't like a lot of drama. We don't like drama. So, yeah.

• 6:08Jocko Willink?

  It's kind of one of those things. Um, do you so if there's going to be drama and you're, you know, maybe raising this information to the instructor. Now the instructor's like, well, I'm kicking him out. And it's because Fred told me that you were, you know what I mean? Uh, but at the same time, the guy might be like, what are you talking about? This guy killed this guy, murdered someone and he's in my school. I'm not teaching this guy and might be like, yeah, thanks for telling me, get him out of here. That could happen. So you got to judge, you got to figure that out. What's your, what's your relationship with the instructor like? What's the instructor like? Instructors are not saints. Jiu Jitsu does not turn you into a highly moral and ethical person. There's Jiu Jitsu instructors that have murdered people. There's Jiu Jitsu

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  instructors, black belts that have raped women and taken advantage of kids. Like, being into Jiu Jitsu is no sort of moral cleansing. But then again, it could be a person that has great values and is like, oh yeah, we're not going to train this person here. So I think those are some things that you got to think about and what they would cause to occur inside the academy.

• 7:13Jocko Willink?

  And if it's going to be a bunch of drama and chaos, then it's probably like, maybe it's better just to leave. And if you're going to leave, that's pretty straightforward, you know, go try these other schools and see what they're like and, you know, go start training there. That's pretty straightforward. That seems like a, the simplest, I was going to say easy, but I think it's actually because I don't want you to get the idea like, oh, that's the easy way out.

• 7:36Jocko Willink?

  It is the easiest way out, but it also might be the simplest and least drama. And if you go through life absorbing the drama that's all around you and everyone that got drama, you jump into that drama as well. Like, life gets, life gets nasty. We don't like drama. So I would consider those things. And I think what it really boils down to is you and your comfortable, your comfort level. You're either, if you're comfortable training there. If you are, like I said, you can talk to the owners and see what they're taking. Maybe they'll kick them out of school, maybe they won't. If you don't think you can talk to the owners, and you're just truly not comfortable staying there, then you go to other, try other schools and leave. And it's as simple as that.

• 8:22Jocko Willink?

  You gotta, you gotta do what you think is right in this situation. You know, you might have a little bit of, um, it sounds like you have a little bit of loyalty with the Gracie University BJJ. And that's cool, but you know,

• 8:41Jocko Willink?

  I think it's fair to, you know, you want to be loyal to the people that are, uh, putting time and effort into you, but at the same time, they gotta have some loyalty as well. And if they know about this guy being a dirtbag and they know you're uncomfortable with it and you know what it's, he's paying just like you are, everyone's allowed to be, you know what I'm saying? So you gotta, you gotta, you gotta use a little judgment here. You gotta, you gotta use your judgment with the facts that are on the ground and with the nuances of the situation on the ground.

• 9:08Jocko Willink?

  But for me, it seems like you're most concerned and you literally say it sucks because leaving the Gracie's awesome Gracie University system. The Gracie's have a great, uh, teaching protocol. So does Eddie Bravo. So does Marcelo Garcia. So does John Donahue. You can go right down the list. Like there are incredible jujitsu places all over the place. And you'll be fine. If that's your major hangup, I wouldn't worry about it. That's kind of where I'm at. What do you think, Echo Charles?

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with you. The, I do feel like the most important part is to, I wouldn't just start casting judgment right away because you know, with all overt indications, you know, in play, I feel like it's kind of like he's kind of on the right path, right? He did a documentary exposing everything he did and then, you know, he's doing a thing, life after prison, basically how I got my life together. You know, that's like, that's a good thing to be doing, I think. So, you know, if it's genuine enough, he's like hanging around and then over time, if he gives it a chance, be like, all right, maybe this guy's on the path. I get it. You know, like the path is, or that his past is checkered, but he's on the right path.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  And then give it time and then he's turns out to be, you know, he has a temper and he's kind of a toxic person. You're like, eh, you know, and you know, then yeah, okay, leave or, or take other actions or whatever you want to take or whatever, based on that, um, but. I do think sometimes, and I'm being exposed to it more and more with the internet where it's like, yeah, people have a bad path and then they're like, hey, I'm gonna kind of tell my story so other people can avoid certain pitfalls in life, you know, if they don't have much guidance. And then I'm gonna go on the right path and try to inspire people to be like, hey, you can get your life back together rather than, you know, I'm just gonna stick with this bad kind of method of living. Cause that's a real thing too. So if he's doing that and you're like, ah, screw that guy, you know, and don't, you know, and you kind of jam it up for yourself

• 11:14Speaker 01

  going, you know, leaving a thing that you already like and all this stuff and you didn't have to, then I think that would be the bad move. So I think just give it time and then you can kind of assess as you go on. Um, one might call it iterative decision making.

• 11:27Jocko Willink?

  Very cool. I like it. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jockounderground.com and subscribe and we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control and we're doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors.

• 12:08Jocko Willink?

  And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us. And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's jockounderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.