Immediately's Branko Cerny on The Rise Of Bottoms Up Sales and The Importance of Branding For Enterprise SaaS Companies

Branko Cerny is the Founder and CEO at Immediately, the mobile platform for modern sales professionals whose mission is to elevate sales back to it’s core foundation, a relationship driven craft. Immediately has some of the US’s finest backing in terms of investment with the likes of Naval Ravikant @ AngelList, Ryan Holmes @ Hootsuite, Jonathan Abrams @ Friendster and Nuzzel and previous guest Kate Shillo @ Galvanize. In Today's Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How Branko made his way into the world of tech and came to be CEO @ Immediately? 2.) How does Branko find being one of the youngest enterprise CEO in the business? What are the challenges and what are the benefits? 3.) What can enterprise companies learn from the likes of Tinder and Equinox? How important is brand building for emerging enterprise sales companies? 4.) To what extent will we see the bottoms up sales process continue in enterprise sales? How does this change Immediately approach to UX, UI and brand building? Why did Branko choose to focus on a mobile platform with Immediately? 5.) How did Branko come to meet his stellar lineup of investors? What value add was he looking for when assembling the lineup? Is he concerned by the large number of investors Immediately has at an early stage? Items Mentioned In Today's Show: Branko's Fave Blog or Newsletter: First Round Review, Nir Eyal Branko's Fave Productivity Tool: Intercom, Moleskin Notebook (Harry's Productivity Tool too!) Branko's Fave Book: American Gods by Neil Gaiman As always you can follow The Twenty Minute VC, Harry and Branko on Twitter here! If you would like to see a more colourful side to Harry with many a mojito session, you can follow him on Instagram here! How many emails do you have in your inbox right now? A hundred? A thousand? The answer is too many. But here’s the thing—even though I knew I wanted to do something about it, I didn’t know how. It’s called SaneBox. SaneBox sorts through your email and moves all of the trivial stuff into a different folder so the only messages in your inbox are the ones you actually want to see. Visit sanebox.com/20VC today and they’ll throw in an extra $20 credit on top of the two-week free trial.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  This is the 20 Minute VC with your host, Harry Stebbings. And before we welcome in the weekend, I'm delighted to bring you another fantastic founder joining us for Founders Friday today. Branko Churney is the founder and CEO at Immediately, the mobile platform for modern sales professionals, whose mission is to elevate sales back to its core foundation, a relationship-driven craft. And Immediately has some of the US's finest backing in terms of investment, with the likes of Naval Ravikant at Angel List, Ryan Holmes at Hootsuite, Jonathan Abrams at Friendster and Nuzzle, and previous guest Kate Schillo at Galvanize, all on their cap table. And I'd like to say a huge thank you to Kate for making the intro to Branco today, very much appreciated, and without which the interview couldn't have

• 0:43Harry Stebbings?

  happened. But before we dive into the show today, how many emails do you have in your inbox right now, going into the weekend? 10, 100, 1,000? If it's anything like mine used to be, it's just simply too many. But I didn't want to delete them all due to fear of missing something. Then I was recommended SaneBox, and SaneBox sorts through all your email and moves all the trivial stuff into a different folder. So the only messages in your inbox are the ones you actually want there. Now, we will use SaneBox here at the 20 Minute VC, and we've got a great deal for you today. So visit sanebox.com/20vc, and they will throw in an extra $20 credit on top of the two-week free trial. Plus, you don't even have to put in your credit card, so there's no upfront obligation. Again,

• 1:27Harry Stebbings?

  that's sanebox.com/20vc. But back to today's show, and enough from me. So without further ado, I'm delighted to welcome Branco Churney, founder and CEO at Immediately.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 1:47Harry Stebbings?

  Branco, welcome to the 20 Minute VC. Fantastic to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for joining us.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Thank you, man. It's a treat.

• 1:55Harry Stebbings?

  Now, I want to hit the ground running by starting off with you. So tell me, how did you come to be the founder and CEO of Immediately? What's the story?

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know, my biggest passion in life is better understanding how we humans work, right? And what gets us excited, what makes us excited that some days we feel at the top of the world and others, it's like hard to power through the day. I spend a lot of time thinking about what gives people that mythical state of flow, where time just becomes more fluid and we're fully immersed in whatever we're doing at the moment. And in studying cognition in college, I kept realizing how easily technology that's supposed to help productivity can actually become really destructive. It's not so long ago that I was in college and the iPhone was already ubiquitous.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  And so we were all carrying around a supercomputer in our pocket, constantly buzzing with new information, right? And I kind of realized, wow, it becomes borderline impossible to maintain full focus on a task for more than five minutes. And cognitive science tells us that it takes up to fifteen minutes to really fully immerse yourself in a task. And so I realized there's a real tension where technology is supposed to help us, but if it doesn't thoughtfully map onto an optimal flow the way that we need it to, it can actually hurt focus and productivity. And that's what originally got me and my co-founder James excited about building more elegant productivity technology. Now, originally, we started with looking at the mobile email problem in general.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  You know, we asked ourselves, how can we create a more optimized assisted experience for dealing with inbound communication? Something that understands a little better what I want right now and serves me just that. But quickly, we realized that in order to deliver really nonlinear value, we needed to get a lot more specific about our problem statement. And that's when we became really passionate about sales and where immediately we started, you know? We realized, sales is really just a series of conversations that are heavily instrumented by technology. And when this technology doesn't map onto how a salesperson would optimally want to run that conversation, it actually becomes a hindrance. The rep has to contort themselves

• 4:11Speaker 02

  and their sales process to the inadequate tool that they have at their disposal. And so we figured, hmm, if we could build a user environment that enables perfect flow for sales speed and therefore makes business transactions a lot lower friction, so to speak, and then in the end, both parties in the transaction are happier at the end, then that would be a really exciting thing. And that's where this all started.

• 4:37Harry Stebbings?

  And I have to ask that, there's, there's one, one element that I, I do pick up on and you said about the iPhone in college. Uh, like you, I, I did have the iPhone during my studies, um. So I, so I have to ask then, as a relatively young chap myself and asking you as a young CEO. Which is, is quite strange in enterprise, am I right, in saying enterprise CEOs are traditionally older. So, so what've been the challenges of being the young CEO in the enterprise space and what've been the benefits for you?

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good question. Um, it, it's totally right.

• 5:09Harry Stebbings?

  Do you know, I, I can't actually take credit for it. It's actually Samir Khaji, the previous guest of the show and an investor in Immediately. I did ask him and he said, ask him this.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  That's awesome, yeah, loves me. Um, of course he would wanna, um, hear the answer to that question. Um. You know, no, you're totally right. I, you know, I get invited to all these wonderful events with, uh, with fellow enterprise SaaS CEOs. And, and I will often be the, the youngest person in the room and, and sometimes even by a couple of decades. And, and it's humbling, you know, um, these guys have decades of experience and best practices on me. And, and what I try to do is, is, is listen more than talk and, and absorb as much as possible every day. And, and, and of course, you know, when you're scaling up a company, um, the pattern recognition and best practices are extremely beneficial. And, and, and I'm very cognizant of, of kind of needing to maintain that humility.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Um, that being said, I also think that ironically, um, or not, it's one of my key unfair advantages. Um, in, in what we're doing at Immediately, because my pattern recognition is not informed by how things used to be. And, and while best practices are really important, they can also be limiting, you know, we're, we're trying to break the pattern at Immediately. We are an enterprise SaaS company, but we are strongly a bottom-up distribution model, which means that we focus on the user first, second and third is the only thing we obsess about. And that is not the traditional way of, of enterprise SaaS. Usually it's all about the, you know, fifty-year-old

• 6:40Speaker 02

  VP Sales Ops, decision maker, making sure that, that, that you're appealing as a sales prospect and you signed a twenty-four-month contract. And that is just not how we do things. And, and so what we focus on is. Is the end user who happens to be the millennial salesperson and those tend to be just about my age. And so in that sense, I'm able to benefit from a lot of empathy with the target audience and from a fresh set of eyes, which I think when trying to break the pattern and create something really innovative can actually be a tremendous benefit.

• 7:12Harry Stebbings?

  And I'm really intrigued then with this user-first approach to the enterprise. You know, we've seen it potentially with the likes of Slack. Is this the symbolism of a new wave of enterprise technology, do you think, in the past couple of years where users have become first and we're not selling to particular people in the enterprise and we're not trying to impress them? You know, we're going for the roots-up approach.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  You know, I really believe that that is the way that things are increasingly going to be in the enterprise. Consumerization of the enterprise is a very real trend. You know, the expectations for technology have changed a lot with millennials. We used to be excited to download like the coolest new ringtone onto our phone and organize all our photos neatly into our Facebook albums with funny titles. And now fast forward a couple of years and we all have the exact same default ringtone that we never bother to change and we post our photos onto Snapchat where they disappear in like three seconds. We just want for technology to work and get out of the way and we want for it to map onto our authentic, natural way of being.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  And you know, the same thing's starting to be reflected in enterprise technology. It historically has always lagged behind the latest in consumer and that's been especially true of sales software where we operate. But it's increasingly becoming a huge point of friction because more and more of today's entry-level workforce generation will often just not put up with clunky software. When you think about how they live, first thing they do after they open their eyes in the morning is check their Instagram, check their Tinder and hit the gym at Equinox. And that's the expectation that they have for user experience and for a user-facing brand. And they'd rather find a workaround than use the adequate piece of expensive technology that their company uses for, say, CRM.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  And they feel alienated from brand marketing that is designed to speak to the C-suite enterprise decision-maker as opposed to them directly. You're spot on that even enterprise SaaS is going to have to realize that the power of decision-making now lies with the user because they choose whether or not to adopt and whether or not to love a particular tool or brand.

• 9:21Harry Stebbings?

  And I have to ask that, you know, we said about the consumerisation of enterprise and that very much, when you look at Immediately, it's a very beautiful UI, it's a great UX, and that's very much front of mind, you can tell when you're using the products in terms of just the user's been designed to come first by you guys. And it's very much a mobile-first product. So why did you choose this approach? Was this in line with the fact that we're all on-demand workforce nowadays and we're moving away from sitting in an HQ in an office all day? Why did you go for this mobile-first approach?

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, that's a part of it. A key insight that we had early on was that in order to be successful with salespeople, we can't just build and sell a piece of software. What we're bringing to the market is a lifestyle. It's an aspirational lifestyle that is more in keeping with what motivates the millennial salesperson. You know, there's this old perception of the coin-operated salesperson is just motivated by money, but that couldn't be further away from today's reality. Really, it's a fun, dynamic, enriching lifestyle that is the draw for somebody to choose sales as their career. And with millennials, lifestyle comes first. And so what we hear over and over again are things like, you know, what motivated me to become a salesperson

• 10:38Speaker 02

  was the idea of building relationships with the client, having a dynamic day-to-day that is not just spent in front of a computer, having my job be more seamlessly integrated into my lifestyle. And we realised that if we want to be successful, what we're doing is trying to enable that lifestyle of, you know, closing deals from the baseball game and becoming friends with the customer once the deal is done. And so we started out by thinking about that and then we realised, well, obviously we have to build from mobile first because we need to build a product that is powerful and elegant, but mainly that the sales rep can bring with them anywhere that the customer is and anywhere that their lifestyle takes them.

• 11:19Harry Stebbings?

  I'm really intrigued that, you know, you place a lot of emphasis on lifestyle. How important is brand then for you and building a brand for Immediately? Is that an important part of your roadmap going forward? It's not often a part of any enterprise roadmap at all, kind of creating a consumer lifestyle brand. Is that part of it for you too?

• 11:40Speaker 02

  It's extremely important to us and I think it's the great tragedy of enterprise software.

• 11:46Harry Stebbings?

  Why do we not have it?

• 11:48Speaker 02

  You know, I think it's because most enterprise software companies are still today run by the traditional top-down outbound sales model, meaning that the only audience that they really care about is the very limited set of decision-makers at the top of the chain of the company that end up signing the contract. Right? When you think about how, say, CRM software is traditionally adopted at companies, it's you gotta convince the VP Sales Ops, you gotta convince the VP Sales, then maybe the CIO signs off on it, and then everybody else just gets on-boarded and essentially, for lack of a better term, forced to use the tool without much say in the matter. And so, there isn't really a point in kind of the old way of doing things

• 12:33Speaker 02

  in having a consumer brand, because it doesn't do anything for you, right? Like, you don't really give a shit if the end-user wants to use your product or not, as long as you get the contracts on it. But that is really changing today. And we talked about, you know, the increasing power that the millennial employees have. And when they say, "I don't want to use this technology, boss. I understand that you want me to do reporting, but it actually is a hindrance in my sales process and I just won't do it", then they often just won't do it. And we hear it day in and day out from the conversations that we have with our customers. It's the same story of, we've adopted all these expensive tools ten years ago, and now the new generation of salespeople, they just don't want to use them.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  And so, it's becoming so important to build not just a product that they can understand, but a brand that they can relate to, you know? And going back to the empathy point and thinking about what is it that a salesperson outside of work does, you know, the Tinder example and the Equinox example. I mean, those are brands that a millennial salesperson resonates with and that have had a lot of success. The way that we think about brands, the way that I think enterprise companies increasingly will have to, is, well, if that's what resonates in... Their free time and their personal life, then that's the type of messaging that that we have to to a certain extent embrace. Because those are the same exact people.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  They don't change character just because they put on a college shirt and and go into work. It's still the exact same person.

• 14:10Harry Stebbings?

  So how do you adopt that as an enterprise company? Because although I completely understand your equinoxes are the the uh brands they're attracted to. And they don't change people, but how how do you translate that message in that brand?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a it's a good question. I think honestly, all it has to do with is empathy with who your audience is. Um, the the way that we run things that immediately, for instance, the number one priority, we say if nothing else happens in your workday. You have to have top to at least one user or one customer every single day. And and that just creates a really profound sense of connection and empathy with the end user. And then whoever it is that is writing the the copy for the app store description or that is coming up. With the design for our website or or the script for our video.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  They are so in contact, in touch with how the mind of the target audience works and what their lifestyle is like and what they're expecting, what they're passionate about. That that they couldn't even write something that is completely tone deaf. As as most of the marketing that you see in traditional enterprise software is. And so I think good marketing is all about empathy. And and building a brand around your product is is is the exact same thing. And and I think that companies have to really embody them, live it. I mean, you you can't, you you can try to hire like a L A brand firm that that work with Snapchat and Tinder. And have them try and and and kind of craft the brand for you.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  But I think it will just come off as inauthentic if you're not actually living it inside the company. I mean, even when we hire software engineers, we make damn sure. That they understand who a salesperson is and how they operate and they can relate and they can get passionate. About hosting a monthly happy hour and talking to dozens of salespeople. Because otherwise, something's going to be off. You have to live it in order for the brand to feel authentic.

• 16:08Harry Stebbings?

  Is there an enterprise company at the moment who you think have done really well at conveying this brand?

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Um, that's a good question. You know, um, there are certainly companies that that are doing a really good job compared to kind of what we're used to. You have you have the slacks of the world, which, you know, um, the the famous, we don't sell saddles. And and is the is the same is the same kind of concept where where Stuart was very clear about they're selling a a better way of lifestyle productivity, better way of living through your work rather than just a software product. Um, there's there's companies like Greenhouse that that comes to mind in the HR space that just a disaster of a space, um, where where they came in with really elegant technology and and messaging really directed

• 16:55Speaker 02

  at the end user who's going to end up spending time in the product. And so there are companies that are that are certainly paying attention and and doing a great job.

• 17:04Harry Stebbings?

  And before we delve into a quickfire round, uh, I want to discuss your investments that that have been made in the company and the cap table that you've got now. And so, I mean, A, you've got also quite a few people that we've had on the show. It seems we've had Dustin Dolganow, we've had, uh, Samir Khaji, um, Kate Shillo, but then we've also got Naval Ravikant, Ryan Holmes at Hootsuite, Jonathan Abrams at Nuzzle. So so how did you come to meet these kind of stellar investors? What was the story behind that?

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, um, it's really a treat having having all these guys on board. Silicon Valley is a is a really small place. And and to me, the rule of thumb of who I want on my cap table and and how I think about meeting investors and bringing them on board is, do I in my gut feel like I can trust this person? Like, I can be vulnerable with them and and admit making a mistake? And then I will be a better, stronger founder in person for having had that conversation with them. And I think that for many of the investors anyway, that I through kind of the evolution of immediately became introduced to and who became excited enough to put in money and their time,

• 18:16Speaker 02

  that's very much also how they operate. I can't generalize probably Silicon Valley, but at least in my experience, what I've found is investment at the seed stage is an extremely personal process. It's a process of is there that je ne sais quoi that makes me want to spend more time with this person? Do I feel more excited, more stimulated, more enriched? And do I feel like I can really trust this person at a profound level? And I think the smartest seed investors are investing in the founder's ability to use the seed capital to really figure out the answers to some really hard questions that have never previously been answered and make a lot of mistakes along the way, but learn a ton from them at a higher velocity than others.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  And that really is just an exercise in trust. I mean, you see more and more seed extensions these days and it really is often just the founder going back to the well and just saying, "Hey guys, so remember when I said that it would take 12 months? It's gonna take 20 at least, but look at how much we've learned." And that's when you need to have established by then a really profound bond of trust where the investor can say, "Yeah, absolutely. I would love to keep supporting you because I trust that you are doing your utmost to make this happen." And so, you know, I think that's how ultimately you get introduced to folks and that's how you get them excited.

• 19:37Harry Stebbings?

  And would you say then with that in mind, that your attitude having raised the money since, is it a move fast and break things? Or is it a slowly adopt new strategies and kind of A/B test them quietly until you find one that's effective?

• 19:51Speaker 02

  I think in today's world, you have to do both at the same time.

• 19:57Harry Stebbings?

  Just to make it easier for you.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  The the the number one value that we have at immediately is thoughtfulness. For instance, everybody gets to work from home Monday morning until noon because then at noon, everybody is expected to come in and have really thought through how they want to invest the most precious resource that we have, which is their time for for the balance of the week in order to really move the needle for the company. And so we we tend to be very thoughtful and methodical. That said, we we have done things like completely make one eighty on our business model week over week and and and go from go from charging the end user to deciding not to charge the end user and and and eliminate the barriers to entry for anybody to get on a product.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  And and those are things that that, you know, are the result of of intense communication sometimes happen extremely rapidly, but but there has to be that thoughtfulness that it's all predicated upon.

• 20:52Harry Stebbings?

  And then I have to ask one final question before we dive in. With the investors, there is seventy nine, according to Angel List, which is is our bible for today. So so the seventy nine investors, that's quite a lot for such an early stage. What do you make of the congested cap table then? Is that a problem for you? Is that something that weighs on your mind?

• 21:13Speaker 02

  You know, it it doesn't weigh on my mind all that much. Many of these investors invested through the Angel List vehicle, and so they're they're actually a single line item on the cap table. But yeah, we have we have quite a few and and every single one of them has has in some sense been been instrumental to getting us where we are. And so I'm grateful to have them and not burdened by it. And and you know, looking ahead, we're now at the point where we're only going to be in in in every subsequent round adding one or two or potentially three new line items to to the cap table because it's all going to be larger institutional checks. And so don't overdo anything, but but I am actually extremely glad that that we ended

• 21:58Speaker 02

  up inviting all the folks that we did into our rounds because it really kind of matters, especially when you're a first time founder, to have that big a team of supporters.

• 22:08Harry Stebbings?

  And I'd love to dive into a quickfire round now with you.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 22:12Harry Stebbings?

  Let's do it. Okay, so your most read blog or newsletter? Give me give me something. What are your must reads?

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the first round review has consistently some of the highest quality content. On the sales side, I'm part of Pete Kazangi's Modern Sales Pro Salon, which is kind of a low profile but extremely high quality, high frequency, illuminating sales salon group. And on the product side, I'd say I really like Nuriyall's writing on building habit-forming products.

• 22:43Harry Stebbings?

  Fantastic. And then takeaways of the first fundraising experience with Immediately. What have been your big learnings?

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Big learnings, don't go out until you're ready. I think a lot of founders kind of take whatever, whatever piece of wisdom or truism they get about you should be raising when you have six months runway left, or when you get your first or third customer, whatever it is. That's not necessarily true. You should be raising when in your mind, you are truly, genuinely, your heart of hearts convinced that the investor would be remiss not to make the investment. If you're going out with a feeling of, fuck, this is stressful, but I really hope that it works out, I really hope that I can tell the story well and convince the investors to give me the money so I can make this happen, that comes across and often doesn't happen. It's better to err on the side of going out a month later, once you

• 23:34Speaker 02

  feel really, really strong in the narrative that you have.

• 23:37Harry Stebbings?

  Would you say you potentially went out a little too early at the start then?

• 23:41Speaker 02

  I absolutely did. I mean, I went through, I went through a couple of cycles of fundraising that were more or less successful. And so, the very first time that I went out, I think it took thirty no's to make me realize that maybe my time would have been better spent building more of the company than having another thirty conversations.

• 24:01Harry Stebbings?

  What fuckers. Anyway.

• 24:05Harry Stebbings?

  And then, favorite productivity tools. You said distracted on your computer and on your phone. What do you use to keep you productive? Please help me.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, as silly as it may sound, and you bring the point of being distracted and that being a problem. For me, the real productivity tool was a Moleskine notebook and a pen. I find that the quality of thinking really varies tremendously with the environment and state that we find ourselves in. And in a startup, you're really trying to beat the odds. And the only way to do that, if you have less resources than the incumbent, is to have higher quality thinking, to make better decisions, to be smarter. And so I try to carve out time every day to sit somewhere quiet with a nice view and and think about what the highest leverage things are that I can do for the company to thrive. And I write those down in my notebook. That's my productivity hack.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  But as far as the company, like I said, we're obsessed with talking to users every day. And so we've been really in love with Intercom and their suite of tools that enable real-time, direct communication with the user. And we actually have it hooked up to our Slack. And so the entire company sees at all times what our users are saying and asking about, and we found that to be really powerful.

• 25:17Harry Stebbings?

  And then your favorite book and why?

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Um, hard to pick a favorite, but recently I read a great novel. Um, finally got around to reading American Gods by Neil Gaiman. And I found it strangely applicable to the world in Silicon Valley where we kind of create heroes and assign heroic status to companies and founders who are just mere humans. And Neil Gaiman kind of ponders that in that book as it relates to gods and what makes a god. And so I really enjoyed that one.

• 25:47Harry Stebbings?

  And then finally, the next five years for you and immediately, what's in the product roadmap? What have we got ahead of us?

• 25:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would have a hard time answering the next five weeks question. But no, to be completely honest with you, you know, we think about the user. And so to us, the ultimate aim is if we can be the environment, through the preferred environment through which a a business transaction happens, if we can create a suite of really intelligent tools that combine into an ecosystem where a salesperson and potentially even the customer benefit from the technology really facilitating as good a transaction as possible, eliminate the information problem and just bring sales and business transactions back to their fundamentals, which is really just a

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Conversation where, where, you know, it's a craft of relationship making and, and ultimately it should result in a mutual and beneficial transaction. If we can really elegantly enable that with technology and, and bring it closer to its human fundament, um, then, then I think we will have succeeded.

• 26:59Harry Stebbings?

  Well, Branco, it's been absolutely fantastic to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining me today. And it's been absolutely fascinating to learn more about the enterprise SaaS space.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Thanks, Harry. I really appreciate your time.

• 27:11Harry Stebbings?

  A huge thank you to Branco for giving up his time today to appear on the show. And if you enjoyed our deep dive into the world of enterprise SaaS, then you must check out the official Sasta podcast, brought to you by Jason Lampkin at Sasta and I. In the podcast, we really deep dive into the nitty gritty on all things SaaS from the world's best SaaS operators and investors. And if you're loving the 20 minute VC, then do not forget to sign up for our newsletter on the 20minutevc.com, all in letters. But before we leave you today, do not head into the weekend with a rammed inbox. Clear your mind and clear your inbox with SaneBox. Now, SaneBox took me from a smooth 3,208 emails. Yeah, I was impressed with that myself, to a cool 28.

• 27:55Harry Stebbings?

  And the beauty with SaneBox, they sort through all your emails, displaying only the emails that you actually want in your inbox. And we all use SaneBox here at the 20 minute VC, and we've got a great deal for you. So visit sanebox.com/20vc, that's two zero VC, today. And they'll throw in an extra $20 credit on top of the two week free trial. Plus, you don't even have to put in your credit card. So there's no upfront obligation or need to cancel it in two weeks' time so you don't get charged. Again, that's sanebox.com/20, two zero VC. Thanks so much, as always, for tuning in and supporting the show. I really do appreciate all your tweets and support, and I look so forward to bringing you next Monday's interview with Satya Patel at Homebrew.