#ICYMI - Basketball Shoe Technology, with Julius “Dr. J” Erving, Ray Allen, and Rasheed Wallace

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel…Lace ‘em up! Explore the past, present, and future of basketball shoe technology with hosts Chuck Nice, Gary O’Reilly, NBA legends Julius “Dr. J.” Erving, Ray Allen, Rasheed Wallace, and Converse’s Jon Garon. Photo Courtesy of Nike.com.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly

• 0:10Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nei

• 0:11Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing With Science Welcome to part two of our basketball mini-series where today we focus on basketball shoe technology

• 0:22Chuck Nice?

  Yeah

• 0:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, part one was an old-school Philly lovin', for which we make no apologies And as a spoiler, part two has Dr J and Masheed Wallace front and centre, and they have some pretty cool stories to tell us about shoe design and how and why some shoes made it on court

• 0:42Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely, and to keep you fresh, we're going to add another NBA star, Ray Allen, who's going to tell us what's going on with the new Nike Jordans, and his shoes are, god, they are just out of this world, man

• 0:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, they were fantastic

• 0:56Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, they're super, super cool, and to make sure that we know our A to Z's, we have Converse's global product line manager and fountain of shoe knowledge, John Garen

• 1:05Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, and with that, we must thank the good people of both Nike and Converse for allowing us unique access to their athletes during the Nike Art of Champions launch in April 2018, although we are not sponsored by either

• 1:19Chuck Nice?

  Right

• 1:19Gary O'Reilly?

  We have a due duty to pay our respects and thanks What better way to start than to revisit the point at which basketball shoe technology really got off the ground, and with that, it's John Garen of Converse, talking about the man some of you may not even have heard of, Chuck Taylor

• 1:39Chuck Nice?

  Yes

• 1:39Gary O'Reilly?

  Here we are at Nike's Art of Champions Yes, basketball, NBA, we've got stars coming up, but first, we have John from Converse You're part of the technical team, John?

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I work on product marketing. So I'm a senior senior product line manager for Converse. I got fortunate enough to to partake in this cross-brand collaboration with Nike. So for us and our authenticity in in basketball, particularly, you know, on court, if you look at, you know, the first playable basketball shoe, the Converse Chuck Taylor All-Star, right? Yes, sir. So, you know. And by the way, Chuck Taylor was a real ball player. He was one of the best players, one of the best coaches. That's right. And really helped, you know, evolve basketball into the modern day game. So, you know, Chuck Taylor became a salesman for Converse and what he identified was he wanted to enhance the product for the basketball player. So looking at, you know, rubber compounds,

• 2:35Speaker 02

  which back in the 30s, you know, traction and durability, canvas upper, which at the time was a very technical performance upper versus today where you have Flyknit.

• 2:45Gary O'Reilly?

  So he must have been probably one of the first mainstream athletes to come in and get involved in shoe design, equipment design.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Just like Phil Bowman and Phil Knight from a running aspect, you look at Chuck Taylor in basketball, right? The medial Chuck Taylor patch, which is iconic today with youth culture from a style perspective, was actually a performance feature which gave you more durability and support as you were cutting back in the 30s. So, you know, you look at where Chuck Taylor is was then to where we are today, where you have Flyknit, you have VaporMax, AirMax, DualStack Max. I mean, the performance features now for that athlete really have moved and progressed and are so innovative. I mean, look at the athletes.

• 3:26Gary O'Reilly?

  What's changed the game? What's what's been the one thing between Chuck and now, not this Chuck?

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Yes, this Chuck.

• 3:31Gary O'Reilly?

  That Chuck.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Because this Chuck has changed the game.

• 3:33Gary O'Reilly?

  Again.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  He's made it so much worse. In my opinion, I would say the cushioning platforms, right? So, you know, you look at Zoom to Air, it's all about the player and how they want to perform, right? They want to be fast. They want to come, you know, if they're going to grab a rebound, what are the features and benefits to give that the player the maximum performance features to really excel and be top athletes in the sport of the game and take it to a new space?

• 3:59Gary O'Reilly?

  See, that's what's interesting. When you go into whichever sporting goods store you frequent and you walk out with your basketball shoes, whether they be high tops or not. You are going out with the intelligence of an MBA superstar, having gone into the making of those shoes.

• 4:17Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 4:18Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, so and that's what's always been probably you've you're kind of like getting an MBA experience on your feet as you walk around town. It's uh it's interesting to think, then going back to what John was saying there, canvas was once cutting edge.

• 4:31Chuck Nice?

  I love it. It's rubber and canvas, the two together. Oh, my God, we are so technologically advanced. We put canvas on rubber. That's amazing. And I love the fact that he said the patch.

• 4:42Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 4:43Chuck Nice?

  For ankle support.

• 4:45Gary O'Reilly?

  But so you take that, you being any but any of us, take that ankle patch for granted.

• 4:50Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 4:51Gary O'Reilly?

  But then realize that it's actually there for a solidity, to stabilize.

• 4:55Chuck Nice?

  To stabilize the top of the the high top part of the shoe.

• 4:58Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, and then we get into that classic function and form. The reason why it is the way it is, like a high top with the ankle patch and this it's to perform a certain function. And I think the way it goes through that and and then the point where you always imagine the big sports brands just churn out stuff. And you know what? This is what you're gonna get this year. This is what it gonna get the next year. But this this sort of shoe technology is driven by the athletes themselves.

• 5:30Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 5:30Gary O'Reilly?

  This is this is what I need. And then they work towards that and bring that into mainstream. So you're always benefiting from the input of not just the the really smart design engineers, but the athletes themselves, because they work in a very good tandem.

• 5:47Chuck Nice?

  Well, the one thing I have to say about the Chuck Taylors uh is the fact that from a style standpoint, they hold up today. So you I mean, look how long we're talking that these these shoes have been or sneakers have been on the market and still people, I mean, I have.

• 6:04Gary O'Reilly?

  Ninety years.

• 6:04Chuck Nice?

  I easily have three pair at home.

• 6:07Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 6:07Chuck Nice?

  Easily. So I mean.

• 6:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Who hasn't worn their Converse to pieces and loved them even more?

• 6:14Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Gary O'Reilly?

  So I mean, they're durable as a s- a style, but they're they're built to have been functional. You could hear what John was saying there, the rubberized sole.

• 6:26Chuck Nice?

  Mm hmm.

• 6:27Gary O'Reilly?

  The whole way the things were structured. They were built to endure games of basketball, not just. One and done, and I think we're gonna hear that phrase coming up. So let's get to our next clip, this time John from Converse talking about one of their greatest ever ambassadors, of course. It's that man again, Dr J. So we've got Dr J, and I mean, he's a brand icon for Converse. How much influence has he had himself on shoe design?

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, he's, he's actually a lot of hands-on. You know, I was talking to a former developer who actually used to work with him back, you know, when he was developing product in the seventies, and he was saying that he had a lot of insights, just to really make sure that he was maximizing design and performance back in the seventies into the eighties, to really excel and take him to that next level.

• 7:18Gary O'Reilly?

  Interesting, isn't it? Yeah. You're using, I mean Chuck Taylor was there founding this process, but you've got someone like Dr J who is now, and in John's words, taking it to the next level.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:32Gary O'Reilly?

  So, right, talking of which, let's speak to the man himself and hear exactly what Dr J thought about the footwear that he was involved with at Converse. Let's get to the shoes.

• 7:43Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:44Gary O'Reilly?

  These are very much in the old-school style, but you've had such an involvement with this brand over the years. Did you have any sort of input into design?

• 7:52Speaker 03

  Well, you know, back in the seventies, when I signed with Converse, that was like nineteen seventy-two, seventy-three, or whatever, then, yeah, they did have a biotechnical lab, development person, and I actually ran into him last year, the guy who used to sit in there, he used to make my shoes, and he used to have a last of my foot, and they'd do trial and error, and then I'd have to go in and, you know, make adjustments so that, you know, my shoes would fit just right.

• 8:23Gary O'Reilly?

  So you had custom-made shoes, especially for you?

• 8:25Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I had bad toes.

• 8:28Gary O'Reilly?

  They couldn't have been that bad.

• 8:30Speaker 03

  Bunions, corns, all that kind of stuff, you know, I've been wearing sneakers all my life.

• 8:34Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 8:35Speaker 03

  So, yeah, so they have the department for it, all the companies do, Converse still has one, and they don't make my shoes custom anymore, because I'm not competing, but, you know, that last was very important, they actually presented it to me as a present.

• 8:50Gary O'Reilly?

  They did? That's a nice touch. So the mold, the mold of all the molds. It's interesting, so what, what you're hearing there is?

• 9:00Gary O'Reilly?

  They don't just give you a box with shoes in it and say, you'll wear those now. Once you get to the level that Dr. J was at. They now take plaster casts of your feet, they make a last of your foot. And as he said, you know, I had one or two things that weren't perfect on my feet, so I needed certain requirements. That now, if you wanted to do that for an athlete. I know, I know from my experience in soccer, that's probably close to about a hundred thousand dollars.

• 9:28Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 9:28Gary O'Reilly?

  To to now start to customize and bespoke footwear for an athlete.

• 9:34Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 9:35Gary O'Reilly?

  And so you are investing an awful lot in this one person because this person is the on-court ambassador. This guy is gonna make your footwear look like it's off the chart fantastic. Now, you idolize Dr. J and you know, we've heard you say, as far as you're concerned, he was godlike. If that god is wearing Converse, what are you gonna be rocking around in?

• 9:57Chuck Nice?

  Um, you know, I have to admit, he might be the only pair of sneakers that I ever purchased. Like, that, that because.

• 10:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Chuck Nice?

  Of it. And like Chuck Taylor though is a, oh god, I'm such a narcissist. I, I still wear Chuck Taylors.

• 10:12Gary O'Reilly?

  Why not? Why not? Why not be proud of that?

• 10:14Chuck Nice?

  Because it had my name.

• 10:15Gary O'Reilly?

  There you go. That's what it is.

• 10:17Chuck Nice?

  To be honest, that's it. But I think the only like athlete influence footwear I ever bought was when the Dr. J Converse came out. They had like a star on them and a little arrow and I think I did have a pair of those.

• 10:31Gary O'Reilly?

  And see, that's what it's about. You see that you are use using, utilizing that athlete's persona. The athletic ability, the whole traction that an athlete has in terms of a fan base. And cynically monetarizing it for your brand, which is understandable and acceptable in in modern society then. It was quite.

• 10:57Gary O'Reilly?

  You know, you were only the very, very, very, very best that that would happen to. Now, it's a lot, there's a lot more goes on because sport now is so much bigger globally.

• 11:07Chuck Nice?

  And these players are now, and these companies are making shoes to enhance the performance of the players. So you're, when you, there is something to having a pair of Jordans or having a pair of, you know, oh, I forget the guy's name that my, my son wears, but there's something to it because these players are putting, giving their input to a company and that company is taking that input and then designing a shoe that hopefully will respond to the player's request in terms of performance enhancement. And so, you know, it, it, maybe it can help your game.

• 11:46Gary O'Reilly?

  So in the, in the mind of, of a fan, you are getting a piece of that superstar when you purchase the footwear.

• 11:56Chuck Nice?

  I'd rather, I'd rather just go through the garbage.

• 12:00Gary O'Reilly?

  Not again.

• 12:01Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that's kind of how I do it.

• 12:02Gary O'Reilly?

  Right, that's for you. So in, in a sense, you are because you're getting the intelligence of the athlete, their experience of what they require on court. And as such, you really aren't getting a piece of what helps make them the person that they idolize so much. Right, we're going to take our first break. More from Dr. J, more from Rasheed Wallace, and we'll introduce a new band member. Oh, yeah, Ray Allen.

• 12:28Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 12:29Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, we will. All coming up after the break.

• 12:37Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 12:39Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 12:40Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing with Science. And we're talking about basketball shoe design and technology. Chuck and I went to Nike's Art of Champion launch early in April, and we had a fine old time. We got to meet some incredible NBA superstars and the wonderful John Garon from Converse, who gave us an awful lot of inside information about shoe technology. But Chuck's new best friend, NBA icon and legend Rasheed Wallace.

• 13:12Chuck Nice?

  Rashid.

• 13:13Gary O'Reilly?

  There you go. Who it's fair to say is a unique character. And when we asked him about why he was rocking the Nike Air Force Ones on court during a career.

• 13:25Gary O'Reilly?

  I think this answer is gonna be everything a young fan wants to hear. In fact, I love this answer, so play the clip and then I can get my loving back on. All right, let's look at these. Air Force One, now your favorite, it's your shoe.

• 13:37Speaker 04

  Yes, sir.

• 13:38Gary O'Reilly?

  But I'm told this was an off-court shoe. How come you brought it back on?

• 13:41Speaker 04

  Well, it was originally an off-court basketball shoe made for the schoolyards.

• 13:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 13:47Speaker 04

  When I was growing up in Philly, this is what we wore. Everybody wore low tops, high tops. And so what I tried to do when I got to the NBA was keep the tradition going. It was something that I was used to. It protected my ankles, which I needed.

• 13:59Gary O'Reilly?

  You wanted that connect.

• 14:00Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, definitely. It's where I'm from.

• 14:02Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 14:03Speaker 04

  So I gotta put that Philly stamp on the league or on wherever I'm at. So, and that was my stamp. Gotta have the strap in the back like that.

• 14:11Gary O'Reilly?

  Absolutely.

• 14:12Speaker 04

  Everything.

• 14:13Gary O'Reilly?

  High top because of support for the ankle or because, you know, that was fashion?

• 14:16Speaker 04

  Um, for me, it was high top for support of the ankle. Uh, gotta protect your money makers.

• 14:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Sure.

• 14:24Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 14:25Gary O'Reilly?

  How many games a season for you on a regular basis?

• 14:27Speaker 04

  Oh, wow. Uh, it was a lot. It was, I made the playoffs every year of my career except for my rookie season.

• 14:34Gary O'Reilly?

  That's why you had the high tops. That's why. Function. Function over form, for sure. This is what I love about the answer. He wanted to make sure that where he came from, growing up, playing ball in the streets, was represented on court. Yeah. He hadn't forgotten where he was from. And I think that, that's, that's a, just a genuine heartfelt answer and, and it speaks volumes to the man, but then when he goes- That's exactly why I wear wingtips on the court. Because? Uh, it represents where I'm from. What, flying school? Well, I'm gonna miss something. So, the thing is, but then he says, right, the high top was because I needed to protect my money makers. I needed that. It goes back to, what's it, the ankle patch with Chuck Taylor? So now we have the evolution.

• 15:19Gary O'Reilly?

  So we now have a more- Obvious ankle support because the guys will definitely be strapping their ankles.

• 15:26Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, well, they're gonna, yeah, they're definitely gonna tape up no matter what, you know.

• 15:29Gary O'Reilly?

  So the thing is that when you, when you say just tape up, anybody can tape an ankle up, but if you tape it in a right degree, a ninety degree angle, you're not gonna be able to run. So when you tape a foot, an athlete's foot.

• 15:40Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 15:41Gary O'Reilly?

  You've got to follow the certain muscle and ligamenture of the foot itself.

• 15:46Chuck Nice?

  Cool.

• 15:47Gary O'Reilly?

  So as you replicate the way that those move and you're giving it support in the places you need to, and so, and that adds to it. So that's, yeah, it's all about, I'm from Philly, I grew up on the streets, this is me, but I'm sensible enough to know how to do that. So he's got the right medical, uh, people around him to give him what he needs.

• 16:05Chuck Nice?

  I also love the fact that he threw in a little stat that I was unaware of, that I thought was extremely cool, and that is, he said, I made the playoffs every single year of my career.

• 16:14Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, wow.

• 16:15Chuck Nice?

  That's amazing.

• 16:16Gary O'Reilly?

  And now.

• 16:17Chuck Nice?

  That's like, God, I mean, no wonder he's going to the Hall of Fame, but you know.

• 16:21Gary O'Reilly?

  So point one, to take a slightly contrarian stance, he was on a good team.

• 16:27Chuck Nice?

  Well, you could say that. Or he made whatever team he was on, good enough to make the playoffs, so.

• 16:34Gary O'Reilly?

  It depends which side of this coin you're on, but I, I think if, if you kind of get there once or twice, you say, ah, you may have got lucky, but when you did it, every year but one.

• 16:47Chuck Nice?

  Nah, yes.

• 16:48Gary O'Reilly?

  And he's got a championship ring to, to show for all those endeavors. That's pretty cool, right? Okay, next clip. Um, right now, on-court footwear is almost unrecognizable from the kicks from, say, fifteen, twenty years ago. You think back to the Chuck Taylors, you think back to Dr. J's footwear from the seventies. So the only person we could ask about the now was a guy in the room who was rocking the brand new Nike Jordans, NBA All-Star Ray Allen.

• 17:18Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, sneaker heads will love this.

• 17:21Gary O'Reilly?

  Here, another NBA superstar, Ray Allen. Now Ray, you've got to talk us through this shoe because we've got Dr. J over there, which is really good, old school stuff, but these...

• 17:31Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, this is beyond futuristic.

• 17:33Gary O'Reilly?

  This is different, so you've got to talk me through what's happening here.

• 17:35Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, when I first got the shoe, it was interesting because one thing we always say about the shoe industry is where do we go from here?

• 17:42Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 17:43Speaker 05

  And the people don't know what they like until we show them. So, when this shoe came to the market, it was like, it's a boot.

• 17:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 17:51Speaker 05

  You know, we're wearing a boot. That's something that's never been done because we went, the high top was something, you know, when we were growing up, and then we went to three quarters. A lot of people didn't want the bulky shoe.

• 18:00Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 18:00Speaker 05

  So, this gave the semblance of a high top shoe, but also to be dressed down into a low top. So, for me, it gave me great comfortability.

• 18:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Almost as if it's like a heavyweight sock, being able to bring it through?

• 18:12Speaker 05

  Well, this is very, like, very soft. I mean, it's very rigid too, so it doesn't lose its...

• 18:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Does it give you the support around the ankle joint that you need? Because we spoke to Rashid and he's saying, "I needed that high top. I needed that point where I could anchor and protect."

• 18:27Speaker 05

  Well, the one thing about when you're playing on that level, like, nothing really gives you the support that you need.

• 18:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 18:32Speaker 05

  So, you have to tape your ankles anyway.

• 18:34Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 18:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, so, we don't just solely rely on the ability of the shoe to keep your ankle locked in, or taped, or we have ankle braces on.

• 18:42Chuck Nice?

  So, who knew that NBA ankles were very much like my family? Nobody will give you the support that you need.

• 18:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, hug that, man.

• 18:50Chuck Nice?

  Come on, man, you know that was funny.

• 18:51Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you.

• 18:53Gary O'Reilly?

  You forced, you twisted his arm. You went up and twisted his arm behind his back, so you know that was funny.

• 18:58Chuck Nice?

  But no, because, you know, I could see he was just like, "Hey, what kind of interview is this? Like, this guy is making, like, jokes about his family not loving him and, you know, I don't think he realized that..."

• 19:07Gary O'Reilly?

  He needs to tune into more playing with science.

• 19:09Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:09Gary O'Reilly?

  He does. I mean, we love Ray.

• 19:11Chuck Nice?

  No, because he wanted to laugh, but like, you know, I get it. Listen, I get it. These guys are, you know, they're high-profile people. You laugh at the wrong thing, all of a sudden, all the angry heads on Twitter are just like, "I can't believe you laughed at the joke about people... There are a lot of people who don't have families, and you know what? They're not laughing." Man, shut up. So, you know, uh, it's a joke and, you know, but I saw him smiling, but he didn't wanna laugh. And that's why I was like, now you know that's funny. He was like, it was funny. It was.

• 19:41Gary O'Reilly?

  But no, he, I mean, he's, you can see he's, he's a modern guy with a modern mindset.

• 19:46Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 19:46Gary O'Reilly?

  But I mean, talking about his shoes, for, for those people who, who haven't had a chance to see these things. They are something else. I mean, you've got a, an almost articulated sole with a heel pad that gets a bridge across to the, the, the front of the foot where you've got a sort of rounded gel. So there's mobility and flexibility, but support and comfort.

• 20:08Chuck Nice?

  And it's wrapped? It's like a shoe wrapped in a shoe.

• 20:11Gary O'Reilly?

  Now we're saying like a couple of shoe fetishes.

• 20:13Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Gary O'Reilly?

  So now, now you zip it down the front.

• 20:16Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 20:16Gary O'Reilly?

  And then the high top bit that you've always laced up and there's a strap around the back for Rashid. That's all gone. This stuff folds back. It opens up.

• 20:24Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 20:25Gary O'Reilly?

  And it's, it slops down like a sock and then you just bring it back up and you're thinking, oh man. Um, these are too good to wear. I'm not gonna wear.

• 20:33Chuck Nice?

  Well, I don't think people are gonna wear, you know, there's these sneaker heads now that, that you have these kids that actually go and they collect shoes. They never wear them.

• 20:41Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:41Chuck Nice?

  They use them as commodities. They keep them. They trade them, you know.

• 20:44Gary O'Reilly?

  They're like anything.

• 20:45Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, they're collectibles. They increase in value. These shoes, I can tell you right now, are gonna be on that par. There's no way, like, I don't see anybody wearing those shoes. I would buy those shoes and not wear them.

• 20:56Gary O'Reilly?

  They're probably not out yet.

• 20:58Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, no, they're not out. Yeah.

• 20:59Gary O'Reilly?

  That's why, I mean, they were something else. And Ray had a pair on and look, and, and it was like all eyes on those bad boys.

• 21:05Chuck Nice?

  I gotta look this up. I wonder if his shoes are out. You know, we saw this at the beginning of April, so, you know, by now they might be out. But I wonder, I'm gonna actually look this up right now.

• 21:14Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so now we've got shoes where there's a separate heel, a separate front for support and, and obviously comfort and, uh, and, and just springiness and, you know, all those things and, and this, I mean, oh, hang on a minute. What am I, what's the word I'm looking for?

• 21:32Chuck Nice?

  Oh, wait. Okay. Yeah, they're out. Okay, they're not out. There they are. Oh my God. This is amazing. So they're not out, but, I mean, listen, we're not even doing a commercial for Nike, but I gotta tell you, if you're, if you're a sneaker head and you're in, oh my God.

• 21:46Gary O'Reilly?

  You're gonna want these. There's gold.

• 21:47Chuck Nice?

  Look how, I don't wanna say on the air, but look how much they are. Oh my goodness.

• 21:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Where's the decimal point?

• 21:53Chuck Nice?

  Look at that.

• 21:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh wow.

• 21:54Chuck Nice?

  Dude, that's insane. Alright, so yeah, you don't wear these, okay? I just made up my mind.

• 21:58Gary O'Reilly?

  No.

• 21:59Chuck Nice?

  You buy these and you look.

• 22:00Gary O'Reilly?

  And you put them in a safety deposit box.

• 22:01Chuck Nice?

  And you look at them. That's what you do with these sneaks, man. These shoes, insane.

• 22:07Gary O'Reilly?

  Whoa.

• 22:08Chuck Nice?

  Wow, okay. Anyway, uh, I have to tell you.

• 22:10Gary O'Reilly?

  Now I know how much they cost. I'm sure, thinking about it just for a millisecond, I should have asked for a pair.

• 22:17Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I should have too.

• 22:18Gary O'Reilly?

  Or two.

• 22:19Chuck Nice?

  These are instant collectibles, that's all I can tell. If you're a sneaker head, you're gonna love these, these Ray Allen, um, Nike.

• 22:25Gary O'Reilly?

  The band new Nike Jordans.

• 22:27Chuck Nice?

  They're the new Jordans.

• 22:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Anglo size it, they had it Nike'd it instead of Nike.

• 22:31Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 22:31Gary O'Reilly?

  But anyway, okay.

• 22:32Chuck Nice?

  Go ahead.

• 22:33Gary O'Reilly?

  They are, they're super gorgeous and they're functional. They've got all that support, they've got all that compression, it just, I mean, they've got such a function, but they look off the chart gorgeous.

• 22:44Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 22:44Gary O'Reilly?

  Which makes me think about, is, is, I mean, how much is now the shoe advancing the player? Does the player make the shoes this? And do you now get into shoe doping? How, how close do we get to? And can you dope a shoe apart from, obviously, in a sort of a?

• 23:04Chuck Nice?

  Putting springs in it or maybe some type of a?

• 23:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Bugs Bunny just gonna tie springs to his feet and jump, you know, in the air.

• 23:09Chuck Nice?

  Well, no, there was a company and they're called APL. I think it's, um, Athletic Propulsion Labs. So I met the two guys, I think it's.

• 23:18Gary O'Reilly?

  You met them?

• 23:18Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, Adam and Ryan, I'm not sure.

• 23:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Alright.

• 23:20Chuck Nice?

  But I met them at a, at a, uh, function. Is it Adam and Ryan? Adam and Ryan Ghosted. Yeah, Adam and Ryan Ghosted. Uh, they, um, they created a shoe that was banned from the NBA because it added like an inch or so.

• 23:36Gary O'Reilly?

  What, were they platform heels?

• 23:37Chuck Nice?

  No, they, no, because they had some, the whatever, whatever materials they use, actually added like an inch and a half to your vertical. So the NBA was just like, no, you're, you're basically doping.

• 23:47Gary O'Reilly?

  It's like flubber?

• 23:48Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly, you're like doping, you're, it's basically shoe doping.

• 23:51Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow.

• 23:52Chuck Nice?

  Like you said, it's shoe doping, so.

• 23:54Gary O'Reilly?

  So it, I mean, it goes back to the point where the shoe has to complement the athlete.

• 23:59Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 24:00Gary O'Reilly?

  And not give the athlete any. Unfair advantage. And in the case of the new Nike Jordans, look unbelievably good. Right, we're just jealous we don't have the money to buy them. We'll take a break and just tool around in our crummy little sneakers that aren't worth $500, not at all, even if we've worn them. When we come back, more on the future technology in basketball shoes, plus Rasheed Wallace's thoughts on being a cyborg. Yeah, playing with science. We'll be back shortly.

• 24:38Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back. I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 24:40Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 24:41Gary O'Reilly?

  And this, of course, is still playing with science and we are drilling down and mining basketball shoe technology and we are coming up with some real nuggets. We are still unbelievably envious of Ray Allen's new basketball shoes.

• 24:57Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 24:58Gary O'Reilly?

  And we won't mention the price again because it's really, really expensive.

• 25:01Chuck Nice?

  I guess not to these. Well, you know what? Here's what's funny as I

• 25:04Gary O'Reilly?

  They get given them.

• 25:05Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I saw this article. There is a guy here in New York City. He owns a consignment shop for sneaker heads where they take these shoes like we're talking about.

• 25:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 25:17Chuck Nice?

  And, you know, they use them like in exchange.

• 25:20Gary O'Reilly?

  It's a barter system.

• 25:21Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, like a commodity. And there's a pair of sneakers right now that are $27,000 per pair.

• 25:31Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow.

• 25:31Chuck Nice?

  And I don't know, I don't, you know, I'm not a sneaker head, so I don't know. I'm just, I'm just, but, you know, I was just online and, you know, doing some research for the show and it's really not what we're talking about, but I had to stop and read the article. $27,000.

• 25:47Gary O'Reilly?

  You wouldn't even wear them at home.

• 25:49Chuck Nice?

  No. Yeah, I wouldn't even, are you kidding me? I wouldn't even take them, I wouldn't even take them home. Kidding me, twenty seven thousand dollars sneakers?

• 25:56Gary O'Reilly?

  Straight to the bank vault for those babies.

• 25:57Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly. I'm hiring an armed guard to stand by him all day long, you know? Put your feet near those shoes.

• 26:02Gary O'Reilly?

  Wow. Okay, so if we think Ray Allen's footwear is trending right now, but what, what will be on your feet in maybe five, 10 years' time? Um, only person to speak to about this is Converse's Global Line Production Manager, John Garon. He opens the box, yes, that shoe box, and gives us a little sneak peek inside.

• 26:25Chuck Nice?

  So finally, what are we looking forward to? When you look at the industry as a whole, what is the future tech coming forward that you think is really going to revolutionize things?

• 26:33Speaker 02

  So I think it's, it's minimal design that is just ultimate performance. So you look at, you know, one-piece uppers that are just constructed with super durability, lightweight, and definitely give you that support for the, for the athlete to really take it to the next space.

• 26:48Gary O'Reilly?

  See, the hockey guys heat mold the upper of the skate to the foot. Are we going to see that kind of technology coming in? Is it going to be worth it? Because if it's minimal, do you have the support around the ankle joints or are you coming into more of that, as you say, the one-piece and maybe molding?

• 27:04Speaker 02

  So yeah, I think, you know, definitely, um, you know, if you look at a lot of the 3D printing and, you know, the scanning of the feet, absolutely. I think that will be something that, you know, ultimately we get to. But for now, I think, you know, you can get full support if the shoe is designed properly and, and it just kind of cradles and hugs your foot. Um, the molding is definitely something that people have looked into and will evolve. I mean, you look at foamposite and that technology, but I think lightweight and, and durable are the things that, you know, this athlete really wants to take them into that next space.

• 27:37Gary O'Reilly?

  So if I buy a new pair of basketball shoes, I will be an NBA player.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  I can't speak for you, but...

• 27:43Chuck Nice?

  Just say yes. Just say yes.

• 27:44Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm sensing no.

• 27:45Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, don't...

• 27:46Speaker 02

  I think you should try.

• 27:47Chuck Nice?

  There you go. That's the right answer.

• 27:48Gary O'Reilly?

  I've now been patted on the head, aren't I?

• 27:52Chuck Nice?

  Hey John, thanks so much, man. We really appreciate you talking to us.

• 27:55Gary O'Reilly?

  Appreciate it, thank you. Thank you, yeah. So what we're seeing now, and we are freaked out by Ray Allen's super cool kicks. But John's telling us that that's not it.

• 28:06Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that's even it.

• 28:06Gary O'Reilly?

  This thing's got so much more left in it. I mean, when we spoke to Craig Desjardins from Bauer.

• 28:13Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 28:14Gary O'Reilly?

  About heat molding.

• 28:15Chuck Nice?

  Heat molding, the boot for skates.

• 28:17Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 28:18Chuck Nice?

  Already doing that.

• 28:19Gary O'Reilly?

  So they're working on that, and then you've got the 3D printing.

• 28:22Chuck Nice?

  I can see that happening.

• 28:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Memory foam.

• 28:24Chuck Nice?

  Memory foam.

• 28:24Gary O'Reilly?

  For the, for the, just, oh.

• 28:26Chuck Nice?

  Which makes sense when you think about it, because like, all right, you ever go to a pharmacy or like whatever type of store and they have like the thing you step your feet on there and then it gives you kind of a semi bespoke orthotic that you can flip into your shoe.

• 28:44Gary O'Reilly?

  So you supple nation, you pronate, where your pressure is, your pressure points, yeah.

• 28:46Chuck Nice?

  And then you can, you know, it tells you which one. It's already manufactured, but now we're talking about getting to a place where, you know, you get that scan done and then you go not to the store, but to your printer.

• 28:59Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 28:59Chuck Nice?

  And print out that for yourself.

• 29:01Gary O'Reilly?

  And it's, like I said, this pun intended here, this is gonna run and run. It's, uh...

• 29:10Chuck Nice?

  Thank you.

• 29:11Gary O'Reilly?

  We got there, got a giggle. So it's, I mean, it just, you can see about lightweight, but not compromising the function. It's gotta perform.

• 29:20Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 29:21Gary O'Reilly?

  And these guys aren't gonna be walking around in shoes that do not give them exactly what they want on court.

• 29:26Chuck Nice?

  And so the lightweight, lightweight, I mean, so now talk from a professional soccer standpoint, does it make that much of a difference after a couple hours on your feet? Do you feel the difference?

• 29:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Psychologically, yeah, because I don't want to be out there in divers boots. I don't want to be having to drag myself.

• 29:43Chuck Nice?

  By the way, you just gave me a great idea for a new sport, flipper soccer, where you play soccer wearing flippers. Oh, so cool. Okay, I'm sorry, I digress. Get back to your point.

• 29:55Gary O'Reilly?

  You happy now? You got that off your chest? Yeah, feel better?

• 30:01Gary O'Reilly?

  So the thing is psychologically, if you if you pick these shoes up and you think, wow, they're so much lighter than what I'm wearing, I can run so much faster, I'll have less fatigue. Wow. Because psychologically, everything comes out of there. Because if you tell yourself you're tired, or if your coach is, oh, my team are tired, they've been playing a lot of games, you'll be like, yeah, dude, I'm tired. Oh, man, yeah, now a coach mentions it, I'm tired. No, you're not. Coach, don't be saying that stuff. They're superhuman, they're incredible. And they're saying, yeah, I am superhuman, I am incredible. These shoes are super lightweight, therefore I'll run further, I'll run faster, I won't have fatigue, I'm cool with this. And it goes off inside here, and that dictates everything that goes on beyond below the head.

• 30:42Chuck Nice?

  And that lightweight and molded combination, that's the holy grail of the running shoe too, because everybody's trying to make the shoe where it mimics you running barefoot, which apparently is, you know, something that we did for millions of years, we ran barefoot, and it kind of takes us back there. But, you know, it's pretty exciting and interesting to think about, like, that there's so much technology that goes into what goes on your feet when it comes to sports.

• 31:08Gary O'Reilly?

  How interesting, we are now talking about going back to the future.

• 31:12Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 31:13Gary O'Reilly?

  Right?

• 31:13Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 31:15Gary O'Reilly?

  We're gonna reinvent the barefoot.

• 31:17Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 31:19Gary O'Reilly?

  In a shoe. It's like, okay, but then again, we revert to nature in so many different things in design, quite often. And I'm surprised we're gonna end up going back to a minimalistic type of footwear, but with with all of the functionality required for each sport. All right, you and your best bud Rashid, you got together again. And now now you sort of your sort of techie mind got carried away. And as soon as everything about today's show is shoe tech, you couldn't let Rashid go without getting his thoughts on something else, which is, what piece of tech? Would you really like from today and take it back to you as a player? So let's hear what Rasheed Wallace had to say.

• 32:04Chuck Nice?

  So let's move away from sneakers for a minute. Let's talk about Rasheed, all right? You know, we do a lot of interviews with guys about tech and basketball. Because you know, there's a lot of things happening right now in the sport where they're working with guys using VR. They're working with guys using tracking devices and things like that. Is there any technology that you see these young guys have today that you would have liked to have when you were playing?

• 32:25Speaker 04

  Oh, definitely the tech and the shoes and in some of the gear when you have some of the the under gear, the under armor or the Nike gear and it has the little slots in it where it keeps your, you know, your heart rate and beats per minute.

• 32:39Gary O'Reilly?

  All the biodata.

• 32:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:40Gary O'Reilly?

  All the GPS telemetrics.

• 32:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, if I would have had that, definitely.

• 32:44Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 32:44Speaker 04

  It would have been.

• 32:45Chuck Nice?

  It would have been a whole different game for you.

• 32:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Rasheed Wallace plus.

• 32:49Speaker 04

  That could have been it.

• 32:51Chuck Nice?

  That's funny that he went with the tracking data.

• 32:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, because obviously he's a man that needs to know. How is his body performing? How is he physically? How is he? Because I might feel like I'm on top of my game. But my biodata says, guy, you're burnt out.

• 33:11Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 33:12Gary O'Reilly?

  Now, the other thing is there, when you get to that stage where you're basically red flagged, as they would call it now. Your body doesn't come up with, hey buddy, you're red flagged.

• 33:24Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 33:25Gary O'Reilly?

  No, this data has to be available to your coaching staff for them to tell you. And then what they do is they withdraw you from training. They might have to withdraw you from a game or two. Your body then naturally heals itself.

• 33:40Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 33:40Gary O'Reilly?

  You are then in because if you go through that initial red flag, you're going to keep going. So now you're on basic reserves and you've burnt yourself out and now.

• 33:52Chuck Nice?

  And you don't even realize it.

• 33:53Gary O'Reilly?

  No, you don't realize it until ping, the sound of a muscle tearing. That's if you're lucky, two or three games. If not, that's two or three months.

• 34:04Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 34:05Gary O'Reilly?

  Now that's just season wiped out because there was not the ability to identify you entering into that zone before. This is why for Rasheed, in my mind, that feedback of information would be so vital for him.

• 34:18Chuck Nice?

  See, and I thought that's what they made steroids for, see?

• 34:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Maybe they do.

• 34:24Gary O'Reilly?

  I couldn't say, not qualified to comment on that at all. How fastly can I skip on from there?

• 34:35Gary O'Reilly?

  Oh gosh.

• 34:36Chuck Nice?

  That's a good answer by him though, man. I really, um, the data tracking is really a big deal, you know? It is for everybody. And it's what you, what the other interesting thing that of what you were talking about, I forget who it was. What we, I forget which, it was either a nutritionist or somebody from the zebra company and we're talking about. One of the things that they found um most integral in uh proper training, sleep. And that goes back to what you were saying. Oh, that was the uh the nutritionist. Who was that? Yeah.

• 35:03Gary O'Reilly?

  Who works with the Jets and the Red Sox.

• 35:05Chuck Nice?

  Yes, I forget his name, but he was like, but and basically they learned that through this data tracking that.

• 35:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 35:10Chuck Nice?

  Hey, man, you know what? You need a rest and you know what else? You need to get some sleep.

• 35:13Gary O'Reilly?

  And it's quality of sleep.

• 35:15Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 35:15Gary O'Reilly?

  So there are, there are certain elite sports clubs, you know, some of the, some of the big clubs I know in Europe. In terms of football and I'm sure NBA and NFL clubs are equally as prepared. They monitor each player's, each athlete's sleep patterns.

• 35:35Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 35:36Gary O'Reilly?

  So as they know exactly how much they've got, because if they're not getting the required sleep, they know the performance levels are going to be compromised. So they are now ma- micro managed, but then again, they're expected to perform at a very, very high level. And therefore give them, what you do is you give your players every single piece of support you can to achieve high level performance.

• 36:01Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 36:02Gary O'Reilly?

  And therefore give yourself the W every single time or give yourself the opportunity to be better placed to get the W every time.

• 36:10Chuck Nice?

  Well, I'd be great at that because sleep, that's where I'm a Viking. Yeah.

• 36:15Gary O'Reilly?

  There you go. Right, while Chuck hopefully doesn't burn his boat and fire arrows into the night sky, oh gosh. And because it's our way, I think really, while I think about Chuck being a Viking, no, it doesn't work. Seriously, it doesn't work. But it's our way here on Playing with Science to tinker with and straight up change stuff, particularly Chuck. And as far as Chuck Exton said, NBA superstars are fair game and are no different, and we will try to change them too. So Chuck put Rasheed Wallace in his sights about being a cyborg. Let's hear what the big man had to say about that.

• 36:54Chuck Nice?

  All right, let me ask you this. This is a psychological question. We're gonna get into the head of Rasheed Wallace right now. If I could put a chip in your brain that would make you never miss a shot, would you rather have that? Or would you decline it to just play under your own influence?

• 37:13Speaker 04

  I would have to decline that.

• 37:15Chuck Nice?

  Really?

• 37:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. It's more fun to play under your own influence. It's more fun to challenge yourself with some internal things. If I know that wherever, and it's good, and it's good, it's not really...

• 37:30Chuck Nice?

  That doesn't do it for you?

• 37:31Speaker 04

  Nah, there's no thrill there.

• 37:32Chuck Nice?

  No thrill.

• 37:33Gary O'Reilly?

  No, real Rasheed, gotta be real.

• 37:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, sometimes that miss you gotta do. It gotta be a hard miss or a soft miss, or maybe even an air ball.

• 37:41Gary O'Reilly?

  Well, Carter, you see?

• 37:42Chuck Nice?

  Not for me!

• 37:43Gary O'Reilly?

  No, no, no, but that was...

• 37:44Chuck Nice?

  I'm gonna light it up, baby. Put that chip in my head and watch me make every single shot.

• 37:50Gary O'Reilly?

  What people can't see is what happened when we asked Rasheed that question. He just, he started to throw imaginary basketballs over his shoulder into an imaginary basketball.

• 38:00Chuck Nice?

  That's true. And then he was just like, nah, that's no fun. There's no fun in that.

• 38:03Gary O'Reilly?

  There are, there are guys that will go, oh yeah, stick that chip in there. Let's see what I can really do. And then Rasheed went, no, it's gotta be me. I want to have full control. And if I don't make it, I'm gonna get... Angry.

• 38:19Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 38:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Another word about it. But I'm gonna come back.

• 38:24Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 38:24Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm gonna be the man that makes the change. I'm gonna be the guy that puts it through the hoop the next time. I'm gonna be the guy that does that dribble. I'm gonna be the... And he uses all the reality, which is why they're keeping it real. And that's what I think fans get to. This guy, this athlete, this player, if they show that they're real, if they show that they're connected to where they came from and how, and they're living and they're thinking, they'll love that player forever.

• 38:50Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely, and he was an intense player. And that's the difference between Rasheed Wallace and Chuck Nice. See, I know for a fact that I'm not making the shot, so I'm taking the chip.

• 39:00Gary O'Reilly?

  Right. A misuse of technology flag on the play. Hopefully you've enjoyed today's show. It's a slightly different take on technology.

• 39:08Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 39:09Gary O'Reilly?

  But with the athletes, these NBA superstars themselves, giving a little insight into what goes on. And of course, Converse's Jon Garon opening up the history, which I think is vital to understand, but also what we will be seeing, not might be, will be seeing in the future. And it could be absolutely amazing.

• 39:30Chuck Nice?

  Fascinating stuff and a fun show, man.

• 39:32Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, I've been Gary O'Reilly.

• 39:33Chuck Nice?

  And I've been Chuck Nice.

• 39:34Gary O'Reilly?

  And this has been Basketball Shoe Technology from Playing with Science.