Halo Top Ice Cream: Justin Woolverton

In one of the most remarkable feats ever performed by a frozen dessert, Halo Top ice cream became the best-selling pint in America just six years after launch. Its founder Justin Woolverton was a frustrated lawyer who developed the recipe in his Cuisinart, mixing Stevia, egg whites and fruit into a low-calorie treat that tasted good enough to sell. Many recipes later—some runny, some rock-hard—Justin got the ice cream into stores; and soon, social media was flooded with images of people polishing off the 300-calorie pints. After outselling Häagen-Dazs and Ben & Jerry’s in 2017, Halo Top’s charisma faded, and a slew of new competitors entered the field. In 2019, Justin sold the company for an undisclosed amount, and now enjoys his ice cream at a less frenetic pace. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson, with music by Ramtin Arablouei Edited by Neva Grant, with research help from Alex Cheng. You can follow HIBT on Twitter https://twitter.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis, and email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 5:23Guy Raz?

  Hey, it's Guy here. You know, we hear a lot of stories on How I Built This about facing hurdles, overcoming obstacles, and being told no again and again and again. I recently talked with country music superstar Shania Twain, and she shared some pretty candid and surprising insights on how she, as a female performer from Canada, had to make some pretty bold moves to break into the male-dominated world of country music in Nashville. You should definitely check out my interview with Shania Twain on my other podcast, The Great Creators. Just search for The Great Creators with Guy Raz wherever you listen to podcasts. And now, on to today's show.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  I literally would call and be like, hi, I have an ice cream idea. I was wondering if I could pay you to use your equipment.

• 6:17Guy Raz?

  Did you tell him what kind of ice cream it was?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  No, no. And so I show up like a couple of days later with my little recipe and my ingredients that I bought from Smart and Final. And he's like, so what are you making? And I'm like proudly like, I'm making the first all-natural, healthy ice cream. And he just looks at me and is like, oh, so it's not weed?

• 6:38Guy Raz?

  He thought you were gonna make weed ice cream.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:41Guy Raz?

  Which, of course, it's California, Southern California.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  That's right. He was just so sad about that. He was really hoping I was making weed ice cream. I broke his heart.

• 6:59Guy Raz?

  Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 7:10Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Justin Woolverton blended egg yolk, stevia, and fruit in his cuisine art and grew that into Halo Top, a frozen dessert that raised the bar for low-calorie ice cream.

• 7:29Guy Raz?

  In 2017, an obscure brand of ice cream seemed to come out of nowhere to become the best-selling pint in America. That year, Halo Top sold more pints of ice cream than giants like Ben & Jerry's and Haagen-Dazs. Just five years earlier, Justin Woolverton debuted his ice cream in one grocery store in Los Angeles. At the time, Justin was a frustrated lawyer in LA who was trying his hand at stand-up comedy and screenwriting on the side, anything to get his mind off the tedium of document review.

• 8:07Guy Raz?

  What made Halo Top go viral, as you will hear, was a combination of things: timing, branding, and a lot of luck. But the most important reason was that Halo Top, at least at the time, was different. It had higher protein, less sugar, and fewer calories, about a third as many calories as the other premium brands. And all of a sudden, celebrities, fitness freaks, and aspiring dieters were posting videos of themselves eating it by the pintload. But of course, as is often the case, what goes up must come down. And Halo Top did eventually lose its place as the top seller. But Justin turned the brand into a significant player.

• 8:50Guy Raz?

  And in 2019, he sold Halo Top for an undisclosed amount of cash. Now, the idea for making ice cream didn't actually start out as a business proposition. Justin was trying to cut down on his sugar intake, so for dessert, he started blending up Greek yogurt, and fruit, and stevia, and then sticking it in the freezer. In fact, there is nothing in Justin's pre-ice cream making days that would have suggested a future as an entrepreneur. He grew up in the 1980s and 90s. His dad was in the Navy, so when Justin was young, the family moved around quite a bit. When his dad retired, they settled near Salt Lake City. And from a pretty early age, Justin knew exactly what he wanted to be.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  I actually, at the age of 12, basically, was dead-set on being a lawyer. Constantly, everybody you know would, especially around 20, would be like, what am I doing with my life? And I was always just confident, like, I'm gonna be a lawyer. I clearly had a different conception of what a lawyer actually was.

• 9:53Guy Raz?

  What did you think a lawyer was?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. Remember those John Grisham novels? Those movies? Pelican Brief, I think, is one of them. It just seems so glamorous, and you're involved in crimes and mysteries. And honestly, I bought into that stuff. And I thought, you know, I think I'm a good arguer, this, that, and the other. I thought lawyers made a ton of money, for example, even though I didn't realize the ramifications of going into $300,000 of student debt. But I was just fully focused on, I'm gonna be a lawyer, I'm gonna be a lawyer. And that didn't change until I was, like, from 12 to 30 years old. I was just dead-set, I'm gonna be a lawyer.

• 10:32Guy Raz?

  So you did, of course, wind up going to law school. I mean, first you went to UCLA for college. I think you studied political science there. And then you got into a really good law school. You went to Columbia, New York. So how did you like it?

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. I did not like it. I just, I, that's when I was like, oh, boy. You know, I don't know if this is actually for me. Didn't quite gel with the other students. I had a core group that I liked. We all just seemed to, I don't know, didn't click for whatever reason, backgrounds, who knows. But it wasn't a, it wasn't a great time. I actually, at one point, thought about transferring back to UCLA Law. But I really liked New York City, so ultimately, I didn't.

• 11:19Guy Raz?

  So you graduate 2009. I think you're about 30. So maybe like two, three years older, or maybe the same age as most of the graduates. I don't know. Probably on the older side.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, on the older side.

• 11:32Guy Raz?

  At that time?

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:34Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And you got a job at Latham and Watkins, a major law firm in New York.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:40Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, you were probably getting paid, I don't know, almost $200,000 your first year, maybe even more.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  That's right. That's pretty much exactly what it was. And then if you hit your hours, they give you, you know, a small bonus.

• 11:53Guy Raz?

  So you're there at Latham and Watkins as a first-year associate. You're paid a lot, but you are, you are doing the grunt work.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  The grunt work.

• 12:01Guy Raz?

  You're doing all the, going through the discovery, right? You're reading document after document. Was that what your life was like?

• 12:07Speaker 01

  That's exactly what it was like. And the light at the end of the tunnel is that it's gonna get better. It's gonna get better. You know, your first and second years, you're the grunt, and it's supposed to suck, right? It's kind of like true for any job. And it gets better, and it gets better. And I eventually got in with a good partner. Uh, kind of in my second or third year, who gave me an awesome case. I basically flew to Hong Kong to appear before a tribunal. They had like the English judges with the powdered wigs, you know?

• 12:36Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Uh, stayed at a really nice hotel. It was as good as it gets for a lawyer. And um, I realized that I was in my hotel room in Hong Kong the entire time.

• 12:47Guy Raz?

  You never even saw the city?

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Never even saw the city. I got like every day I would get some dumplings, but other than that, really didn't get to see the city.

• 12:54Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  So that's like 2011 and that's when I realized I could not keep doing this because the dream of it getting better from being a junior associate. It, I just got the best assignment that I would probably ever get and I did, I hated it. So damn, there goes, you know, since I was 12 years old, I wanted to be a lawyer. And this is the moment when it all came crashing down and I realized I cannot be a lawyer, at least at a firm of this size doing, well, actually I just realized I couldn't be a lawyer.

• 13:24Guy Raz?

  There's a certain type of person who can, who can do that work and who can tolerate it. But the reality is you're, you're, you're fighting and fighting and fighting to make partner. And then you make partner and you realize it doesn't get better. You just get more pie to eat.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Uh, it's amazing you know that saying because they say it's a cake eating contest where the prize is more cake. Uh, that's exactly what lawyers say. Maybe it is pie, you might have it more correctly than I do, but uh, yeah, you're exactly right.

• 13:51Guy Raz?

  So what, what did you start to think about doing? This is 2011, you've got this promising career, you're making over 200 grand a year as a lawyer. Obviously you've got student debt, but still, I mean, it's a very stable lifestyle if you can hack it.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Well, that's actually the issue was my student debt was so high, uh, 300,000 that even though I was making, you know, clearing 200,000 a year, uh, I was still living like a law student. And so I kind of did the math and realized that I would have to crush, just keep grinding away at this job for like eight years, just to finally get rid of my student loan debt. And then I have no guarantee of what would come after. So in a weird way, that student loan debt actually propelled me into taking risks, as odd as that sounds, because I realized I couldn't do that job to tread water.

• 14:39Guy Raz?

  Right, right. So I guess, I guess around 2010, you, uh, you move back to LA. You continue working at Latham Watkins office as in LA as a lawyer.

• 14:52Guy Raz?

  And I guess while you're in LA, you start dabbling in things that have nothing to do with being a lawyer, like stand-up comedy and writing screenplays. Now, and it's not to say that you can't do those things. There are probably lots of people who were lawyers who went into screenwriting, but maybe not lots, but some. But you're thinking, this is a practical pivot for me. Like, this is what I think I can do.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  I love how you put it. Yeah, it's a practical pivot. No, you're absolutely right. So the plan was to go into comedy and give that a shot for a year or two while I was practicing law, kind of ostensibly practicing law.

• 15:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  And so I was doing open mic nights. I was doing improv classes and I was doing what they call spec scripts to send into different comedy shows where you basically write an episode and see if they like it. I never actually, I did about 10 stand-up gigs and I never actually completed a spec script because ultimately Halo Top got in the way, fell in my lap, and I ran with that.

• 15:58Guy Raz?

  How was your stuff?

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Bad. I always tell people that they should try to do a stand-up act just once, just because, number one, you'll appreciate how much of an art it is for the really good guys. And number two, any cringe moment you have in your life will just wash away compared to the first stand-up show you do.

• 16:23Guy Raz?

  So you are not, you are not going to be the next Dane Cook?

• 16:27Speaker 01

  I mean, I will say, in my humble defense, that every great comedian says that their first times on stage, they were horrible. But I think if we're being realistic, I probably just wasn't very talented.

• 16:39Guy Raz?

  Okay. So you're at the law firm and you're being a lawyer, kind of doing the, going through the motions of doing what you had to do. And then this idea comes to your mind about ice cream.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:57Guy Raz?

  It didn't just happen overnight. Like, before we get to how that happened, tell me about your lifestyle. Were you, at the time, I mean, you're working a lot. So were you exercising? Were you taking care of yourself? Or were you just sleeping and eating and waking up and working?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the one thing that was keeping me sane is I was trying to go to the gym for mental well-being and I was trying to eat healthy. The key in terms of lifestyle, too, is this is very common now that we've hit the COVID era. But even back then, for lawyers, you could do almost all of your work remotely. And the grunt work that I was doing as a junior associate, this document review, you could do that anywhere.

• 17:40Guy Raz?

  All right. So you are, you know, you're working out, exercising. And do you have any, like, health issues or, like, gluten allergies or any celiac? Do you have anything like that at all?

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 17:57Guy Raz?

  Or can you eat everything?

• 17:57Speaker 01

  No gluten allergies, but in the past, I had tried one of those carb elimination diets like Atkins.

• 18:03Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  And it didn't work for me, but I realized that I didn't do well on a lot of carbs. So I began consciously lowering my carb intake and my sugar intake and naturally increasing protein and fat. But it just, it gave me a lot of mental clarity and it just, it really feels like the right, it felt like the right fuel for my body.

• 18:23Guy Raz?

  So, all right, so you're, you're doing, you're kind of, you know, trying to be a little health-conscious. But what I'm trying to figure out, because this is a big leap we're about to take here. And so I'm trying to figure out how you, you know, how you start to think about food in a food business or a business at all. I mean, were you in your mind thinking while you were at the law firm, I should start a business?

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 18:50Guy Raz?

  Make something.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Not at all. I don't think I had an entrepreneurial bone in my body until I realized I did, of course, when I founded a company.

• 18:58Guy Raz?

  But, but how did you come across the idea of making ice cream? Like, how did that happen? I mean, because initially, from what I gather, you didn't make this to sell it. You were just like, let me try to make some ice cream for myself.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly. And it comes down to Greek yogurt. I was, I don't think there would be a Halo Top without Greek yogurt. I was eating Greek yogurt once, twice a day. I like to limit my sugar intake, so I wasn't getting the Greek yogurt that had like the sugary fruit on the side that comes with it. I would get the plain stuff and I would add my own fruit and I would, you know, add stevia to it. Like a zero calorie sweetener. I think everybody at this point knows what stevia is. And I was eating that so much that eventually I began to freeze it in a very bachelor style way. Like seriously, just put it in my Ikea bowl and put Saran Wrap over it and put it in the freezer for a couple hours.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  And then I basically got sick of the tang of Greek yogurt and made a, like an analog, just kind of like, just looking at the nutritional facts and using some cream here and some egg whites here and some sweetener here to try to mimic ice cream.

• 20:05Guy Raz?

  And then, but when you take that out of the freezer, it's a rock solid rock.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  It's like, it's, it had kind of like shaved ice type.

• 20:14Guy Raz?

  Yeah, yeah, like shaved, you can take a spoon and start to hack away at it.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Well, you're exactly right. You can't let it freeze overnight. You have to let it freeze for like an hour or two. Or else you're right, it freezes into an ice cube.

• 20:25Guy Raz?

  All right. So you're making this for yourself, but I'm trying to figure out how you, I mean, because it doesn't sound that good to me. You know, I make ice cream. I do. I make ice cream all the time. I, I, and I love making, I've got an ice cream maker and I, you know, I used egg yolks and cream and sugar and mint leaves or whatever, vanilla, whatever I have. And, and it's good. It's pretty good. But I'm thinking like, what you're doing doesn't sound that good. So I'm trying to figure out at what point were you like, hey, this is really good. I think other people are going to want this.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Well, believe it or not, it wasn't very good. I mean, this is kind of obvious. It wasn't good coming straight out of my freezer. But I, when I bought a cheap ice cream maker off Amazon, I ran the concoction through that. It actually did taste really good, believe it or not. And it that from that point on, I started Halo Top. I mean, that became my life. That that night I ordered again from Amazon a book called Sell Your Specialty Food, which is basically food business for dummies. And I was just full go on that stuff. What happened is when I made it in the ice cream machine, um, I it tasted so good that I immediately ran down to my local stores and like a crazy man was running up

• 21:42Speaker 01

  and down the aisles, the freezer aisles, being like, has anybody done this? It seems like a slam dunk. Has anybody done this? And they hadn't.

• 21:48Guy Raz?

  There was sugar free ice cream in 2011, but there wasn't Greek yogurt ice cream that was sugar free, as far as you know?

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, frozen Greek yogurt hadn't come out. I'm not too aware of any sugar free ice creams, but uh, it was actually a big decision at the beginning as to whether to make uh, frozen Greek yogurt or to make that concoction I made, which would become Halo Top, which was light ice cream. And on one hand, frozen Greek yogurt would be such an easy sell to stores uh, into the public. But on the other hand, all of these Greek yogurt companies, whether it's Chobani or whether it's just Ben and Jerry's or something, they could make a frozen Greek yogurt at the snap of their fingers. Whereas my little light ice cream concoction was much more unique and had a different value proposition in that it didn't have tang, basically.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  So I had to make that decision as to what I wanted to start my company around.

• 22:43Guy Raz?

  But but I'm trying to figure out how you go from making, being a lawyer, having no, never, because you know, there have been people on the show like, I was always dreaming of the business I wanted. Always thought, you know, I had this job, but I knew that I was going to start something in my mind. And you're going from a guy who never even thought about a business at all to like, a few days later saying, you know what? I'm going to make a business, I'm going to sell this.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, immediately. To to to me, the ice cream was so good, uh, this thing I've been tinkering with and the concept was such a slam dunk in my naive head, um, that yeah, between the time I bought an ice cream maker, uh, I founded a company within three days. I was just that convinced on the concept.

• 23:25Guy Raz?

  And so when you say you found a company, you're a lawyer, so you filed like an LLC and just kind of set up a company. What'd you call it? I think you called it Eden Creamery initially, right?

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:36Guy Raz?

  So then what do you do? What's the first thing you do? I mean, because it's kind of delusional. Let's be honest.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  It is delusional. And the story of what I did is exactly what anybody who doesn't have a clue would do. Like, everything I'm about to do is like, yeah, I guess that's what I would do, too, if I have no experience and I was naive.

• 23:53Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Literally, what I did the next day was Google ice cream factories near me to figure out where I could go make it on professional equipment. In my head, this ice cream was going to be ready to go. I was going to have packaging in maybe three to four weeks, and I would have it on store shelves, you know, within two months. Very naive. I had no idea what I was doing in food and beverage, but that was my thought process, literally. It did not go that way. It did not go that way.

• 24:21Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, we will indeed find out how it actually went. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Does your team want a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship? Well, Framer is built exactly for that. With Framer, you design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting, and a CMS built in, so the work is production-ready from day one. And you can get it done with help from Framer's AI agents. Framer is the

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• 27:54Guy Raz?

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• 28:13Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2011, and Justin has just founded a company called Eden Creamery. And he then does what any of us would do. He Googles "ice cream factories near me" to find places that could make his new product.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  I literally would call and be like, "Hi, I have an ice cream idea. I was wondering if I could pay you to use your equipment. If it needs to be on nights or weekends, I'm willing to do that." And I called all 10 of them. I called all 10 of these companies, and nine said no. And some of them said, "No, angrily, like, what are you even doing?" And this is actually, this is not an exaggeration. Literally, I had nine scratched off my list. And the 10th one was a guy in Van Nuys.

• 28:57Guy Raz?

  In the San Fernando Valley, yeah.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Yep. And he was oddly interested in it. He was like, "Yeah, sure, you can come in. We've got a lot of extra capacity."

• 29:06Guy Raz?

  Did you tell him what kind of ice cream it was?

• 29:08Speaker 01

  No, no. And this is what I'm getting at. He said, "What are you making?" And I was, of course, paranoid about, like every entrepreneur is, a little too paranoid about, "Someone's gonna steal my idea." And I was a lawyer, so I had a bunch of NDAs at my disposal. So I had him sign an NDA. And he was really curious, you know, "What the hell am I making?" And this guy was, he was really cool. He was old-school L.A. and wore, like, big aviators at all times. He must have been 70, just a cool guy. So I show up, like, a couple of days later, with my little recipe and my ingredients that I bought from Smart & Final. And he's like, "So, what are you making?" And I'm like proudly, like, "I'm making the first all-natural, healthy ice cream." And he just looks at me and is like...

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Oh, so it's not weed? He was just, he was just so sad about that. He was really hoping I was making weed ice cream. I broke his heart.

• 30:01Guy Raz?

  Which, of course, it's California.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 30:03Guy Raz?

  Southern California. Of course, you would make weed ice cream. It probably exists today.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  And that's why he thought, oh, I'm pretty sure it does. And I'm, he thought that was why I was being all cagey. And it was like, man, you're making a healthy ice cream. Give me a break.

• 30:18Guy Raz?

  Doesn't sound very appetizing to me. Okay, so you're, so you have these ingredients and he agrees to what? Make a batch for you? And the ingredients are what in that first run?

• 30:31Speaker 01

  It is, I'm so naive. It's my own recipe that I made on my home ice cream maker. And it's got all of like five ingredients. And I'm actually sitting there doing the blending and putting it in the machine and learning how to use the equipment with another guy.

• 30:44Guy Raz?

  And, and it's milk or cream?

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Milk and cream, yeah.

• 30:49Guy Raz?

  Yeah, milk and cream, stevia.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Stevia, yep. I can't give away the recipe too much. There is a little Coca-Cola to this stuff, so.

• 30:56Guy Raz?

  Okay, I got you.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Obviously, these are, these are the basics.

• 30:59Guy Raz?

  There's egg whites in there.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 31:01Guy Raz?

  By the way, egg whites is weird because that usually use egg yolks in ice cream to give it that creamy richness.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  That's right. So the whites, they add a little protein. And if you want to nerd out about ice cream, they have emulsification properties.

• 31:16Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  So it actually is a good thing to put into ice cream in terms of performance.

• 31:19Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  So I run my little batch on the machines and it could not have gone more horribly. The, the machine basically spit out something that looked like a, a liquid burnt marshmallow. I mean, it was just like a white river. It was so demoralizing. It was foreseeable, of course, that my little home recipe wasn't going to work on professional equipment. But it, it just absolutely didn't work. I mean, I'm demoralized almost to the point of tears because I was so gung ho on this thing.

• 31:49Guy Raz?

  But, but, but why, why didn't it work? I mean, I mean, it's the same principle. It's, it's spinning and freezing the ingredients. So, and when ice cream is ready, it comes out of soft serve and then you freeze it. So I don't understand why it didn't work.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Well, ice cream needs a lot of salt. I couldn't actually pinpoint exactly why it didn't work, even though it was just me sticking a bunch of ingredients in an ice cream machine and expecting it to spit out ice cream. But to be more precise, ice cream needs a certain level of solids, like sugar and fat in that to give it body. And I didn't have enough of that. It worked on my little Cuisinart ice cream maker at home, but on this professional equipment, it didn't work at all. So it was like back to the drawing board. Either give up the dream or it's back to the drawing board.

• 32:33Guy Raz?

  So you're not a food scientist, of course.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 32:36Guy Raz?

  Right? This is not your background, but you're kind of dabbling. And there's clearly a reason why up until that point, there was nothing like that on the market because probably when if anyone had attempted it, the same thing happened, that it just didn't come out, didn't come out good.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I talked to some ice cream experts and there were some movie moments where they'd be like, you know, give it up, kid. And so a food scientist, he was like, this just can't be done and things like that. So one of the virtues that I had at the time was just utter sheer overwhelming naivety to where I didn't realize how hard it would be to eventually make this stuff.

• 33:16Guy Raz?

  How did you start to figure out what to do next? Did you go to the, I mean, presumably you went to the internet?

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you know, on the, the internet, you can figure out how to make everything now. And I basically took my little recipe and just that night started researching, became like a little miniature food scientist and started researching, what did I need to have in there? And then I started to realize proportions of solids and all these things I won't bore you with, but greatly revised the recipe overnight.

• 33:45Guy Raz?

  Well, this is the thing, right? Like then you've got to find out things that will replicate that, that mouth feel.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. But the biggest, the biggest issue is when you take out a lot of the sugar or almost all of the sugar out of ice cream, it loses all of the solids. And the salt, what I mean by solids is everything that's in ice cream that isn't water. I mean, that's even fat particles, but sugar is the easiest one to understand. And if you remove that, it will freeze hard as a rock unless it has enough solids. So

• 34:16Guy Raz?

  Right, right. Cause the, cause sugar keeps it creamy.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 34:20Guy Raz?

  Right?

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it, and it keeps it soft and scoopable.

• 34:24Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Because it depresses the freezing point.

• 34:26Guy Raz?

  Alcohol does the same thing, too, I think, right?

• 34:28Speaker 01

  I actually at one point experimented putting a little bit of vodka into Halo Top. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding.

• 34:34Guy Raz?

  Yeah, because vodka's a low calorie. That was a much surprised.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Yep, and I spent like five days researching if I could do that without, you know, can I put alcohol in ice cream without declaring it, all that stuff.

• 34:47Guy Raz?

  How, how long did it take you in experimenting with different ingredients before you were satisfied that you had something ready to sell?

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it took about two months, I would say, before I was like, okay, there's a little bit of tweaking to do, but I'm almost, once packaging is done and everything like that, I'm ready to start selling in stores.

• 35:10Guy Raz?

  So about two months, and you were financing this, right? I mean, so, so you had to pay this guy and presumably this, this co-packer in Van Nuys could handle everything. They could, they could make the ice cream and package it up for you and you would just come and pick up the pallets of frozen ice cream?

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yep, and I wasn't in stores until early 2012, so during 2011, I didn't even need to deliver ice cream. I was just going up there with my ingredients, taste testing the batch, making notes, going the next day with ingredients, making the new updated recipe.

• 35:42Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  The issue was with this equipment, I had to make like 80 to 100 pints at a time, and I really only needed one pint to test, so it was a total waste, but the machine was too big.

• 35:52Guy Raz?

  All right, so you, now, at a certain point, did you start to add a little bit of sugar, of cane sugar, or was it only stevia?

• 35:59Speaker 01

  I did, I did, just during this whole process of going back and forth and seeing how well it froze and all of that. But I realized, I realized that stevia alone kind of has this weird black licorice taste. And so I would add, I always added a little bit of sugar, both for taste and for performance, but also to cut that stevia taste.

• 36:17Guy Raz?

  Yeah, all right, so you've got these pints ready to go, and, and you're financing this all from your paycheck as a lawyer?

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and deep, deep credit card debt.

• 36:31Guy Raz?

  Yep, and.

• 36:33Guy Raz?

  At this point, you know, you're thinking, I'm thinking, okay, take it to a farmer's market, put in a cooler, open up a farmer's market stall and start to sell it there.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Yep, I thought that that would be too slow, so I just called stores directly. Not really, very, very nervously. I remember my first sales call. It was in, right at the start of 2012. And I called it's a store.

• 36:54Guy Raz?

  And who was it too?

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Uh, Arowan. It's, it's like an LA.

• 36:57Guy Raz?

  Famous store in LA.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:59Guy Raz?

  LA natural food store.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Natural food store, bougie, $25 salads, all that. And I called and I'm so nervous for this call because number one, I don't know what the hell to say on the phone. Just like, how do you even, how do you even approach this subject? And number two, in the back of my mind, I'm like, I just devoted six months to making this stuff. What if nobody wants it? What if nobody will carry it? Because you know, I couldn't go to a store ahead of time and say, hey, I've got this concept. Would you carry it if I made it? It doesn't work like that. And I didn't know any store buyers.

• 37:31Guy Raz?

  You could bring it and say, here, try it.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's not the way that it went. So I'm making this, um, this nervous phone call. And I remember her name was Vicky at Arowan and she was just fantastic. She's like, oh, honey, just come in every two, any Tuesday from two to four PM and we'll try it. And, uh, and that was how it worked.

• 37:50Guy Raz?

  And what the, what were the flavors you had?

• 37:52Speaker 01

  I, I started with vanilla bean, chocolate, strawberry and lemon cake.

• 37:59Guy Raz?

  Got it.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Because it was kind of received wisdom back then that of course you do vanilla and chocolate. Then you do a fruit and then you, for your fourth, you do an experimental flavor. Mine was lemon cake and it was actually the most popular flavor for a long time.

• 38:12Guy Raz?

  So you bring it into Arowan?

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Yep. But, and Vicky's there and I, that was my first sales meeting. I realized how, uh, how long they can be. I was probably sitting there for like an hour and a half, two hours while everybody in the store kind of came around and tried it. But they were absolutely awesome. Um, she, and it was a small chain. It's not like a big chain where it's like, we're going to take you and you hit shelves in four months. So get prepared. She was like, yeah, we'll take it. We'll give you all four flavors. You could put it on the shelf next week.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  And so, literally, in like the span of a week, I was now selling ice cream on the shelf.

• 38:49Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  And like two days later, I had a little folding table and an apron on, and I'm scooping ice cream for people, saying, "Hey, try healthy ice cream that doesn't taste healthy," or some cornball thing like that.

• 39:02Guy Raz?

  You called it healthy ice cream. You didn't call it low calorie or anything?

• 39:05Speaker 01

  I varied between the two, you know?

• 39:07Guy Raz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Because low calorie is more accurate, but, you know, healthy, the words were always awkward to say, like, you know, how do you actually term this stuff?

• 39:16Guy Raz?

  And by the way, how many calories was like a pint of vanilla ice cream?

• 39:20Speaker 01

  It was right around 300, I think.

• 39:23Guy Raz?

  Okay, for the whole pint?

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:25Guy Raz?

  Yeah, whereas a traditional, like Ben & Jerry's or Haagen-Dazs vanilla would be like twice or three times that amount?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Four times.

• 39:32Guy Raz?

  So it was a quarter of the calories?

• 39:34Speaker 01

  A quarter, that's exactly right.

• 39:35Guy Raz?

  Yeah, and you personally would go there with your cooler and you would stock the shelves?

• 39:42Speaker 01

  That's right. Until I got a distributor, which came a few months later, which was crucial, obviously, I was literally hand-delivering ice cream all the way up, in some cases, to a store called Lassen's in Ventura. So I would seriously just have, I had so many coolers in my house at this point, I never thought I'd own so many coolers, but I would have a big cooler of ice cream, load it into the back of my trunk, put a bunch of dry ice in the cooler, because it had to stay perfectly frozen, and go make deliveries around LA?

• 40:12Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  And so I'm just basically cold-calling everybody, and I reached a point, I think I got into about just like 20, 25 stores on my own, and then I got into a certain chain that was big enough that they then forced their distributor to take me on.

• 40:30Guy Raz?

  Who, what was that chain?

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Bristol Farms.

• 40:33Guy Raz?

  Bristol Farms, okay.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:34Guy Raz?

  And they have a distributor that handles ice cream or frozen goods?

• 40:38Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 40:39Guy Raz?

  And they agreed to carry or to distribute your stuff?

• 40:41Speaker 01

  That's right, and that's the big catch 22 of starting a food beverage company, is in order to get a store, typically a store chain, you need a distributor, and in order to get a distributor, you need a store chain. So what you really need to do is convince some store chain that they really want your stuff so much that they force the distributor to basically take it on, and that's what happened.

• 41:03Guy Raz?

  So, all right, so you've got now this... Label, this Eden Ice Cream. And I guess around this time, this is around 2013, you bring on a partner, a new, because you were doing this by yourself, more or less, up till this point.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 41:20Guy Raz?

  And you bring on a partner named Doug, Doug Bowden or Bo- Putin?

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Uh, Bowden.

• 41:26Guy Raz?

  Doug Bowden. And who is Doug? Tell me about Doug. How'd you meet Doug?

• 41:29Speaker 01

  So I met Doug in late 2012 in a lawyer basketball league, actually, and he emailed-

• 41:36Guy Raz?

  He was also not, not happy about being a lawyer?

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, he kind of worked at a firm similar to mine. And he actually emailed me for two reasons. Number one was he was leaving his firm to start his own law practice and he was pitching me as a client, which was actually very, very intriguing because I was going to need investment pretty soon. And the second thing was, he was involved with a startup that was at the spot that I was in like a year, year and a half prior, and was looking for advice on like, hey, how do you, you know, get into a store, kind of the basic questions.

• 42:08Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  So in, in late 2012, through 2012, I had basically gotten into about 80 stores, like I said, and I still thought I could do it myself. But at the end of 2012, I had a little miniature boom. In the natural foods world, there are kind of two major store chains. It's Whole Foods and it's Sprouts. And at the end of 2012, I basically somehow convinced Sprouts not only to carry me, but to, that I could make enough ice cream for them. They were like, can you make enough to handle 300 more stores? And I'm like, of course, I could do it tomorrow. And then I was told by Whole Foods in Norcal, in your region, actually, that they were going to bring me in. And I just realized at that

• 42:52Speaker 01

  point, I physically couldn't do it alone. So I started kind of looking to bring on somebody, somebody out there. And Doug was obviously, from riding me and from already being in LA and with his legal background, was definitely on my radar for the first person I would bring on.

• 43:09Guy Raz?

  All right. So Doug joins. And, but the challenge at this point is to, I mean, many challenges, right? It was to, obviously, scale and figure out how to sell more ice cream. And, you know, And by the way, just being in Sprouts and Whole Foods in California, you're not going to become a big business. You know, that's not possible. And just being in Whole Foods nationally, maybe you can grow to like seven, maybe 10, maybe 12 million dollars in annual revenue, but like you're going to max out.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really hard to make money. The real money is made in the Krogers and the Walmarts, you know, but it's very cool to be able to say that you're in Whole Foods and it definitely helps the brand image.

• 43:56Guy Raz?

  I guess Eden Ice Cream is now in these stores, not many, but still quite a few. And I guess pretty soon you get a cease and desist letter from a company that makes Eden soy, soy milk.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what? This is actually back in 2012, right after I got that first distributor. So it was an absolute nightmare. I mean, thank God it came earlier rather than later. But they basically said, look, you can't use the name Eden. We make Eden chili and Eden pasta and Eden soy and all of this stuff.

• 44:31Guy Raz?

  How did you, by the way, how did you not know that as a lawyer? Wouldn't you have done? I'm not trying to, to like, you know, pound a man when he's down. I'm just curious, you know, didn't you do like a name check?

• 44:42Speaker 01

  No, I deserve it. It was very, very stupid of me.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  It was a very stupid thing to do. And then when it happened, I was like, you know, maybe I can fight this because Eden Creamery, you know, they don't make any perishable or frozen products. And then I was like, eh, this is going to cost a hundred thousand dollars at minimum just to fight. And again, this thing is bootstrapped. No chance. But um, yeah, I had to cave. And yes, it was very stupid to pick that name.

• 45:07Guy Raz?

  So, so how did you come up with a new name?

• 45:10Speaker 01

  When they sent me the cease and desist, my marketer said, okay, let's stay with the Heavenly Angela concept. Eden is four letters. Why don't we just go with Halo? H A L O Creamery. And I said, well, okay, first Halo to me is a video game.

• 45:29Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  You know, second, maybe there's some trademark issues with that because it's a very basic name. And I thought Halo Top rolled off the tip of the tongue and the gold lids were kind of like, you know, the top was a halo. So I was like, let's do Halo Top. We fought back and forth because that would have taken a lot more packaging changes just to go from Halo Top to Halo. And I'm like, no, let's do Halo Top. End of story. And the funny thing is, in retrospect, like, even my close friends, when I'm like, you know that the top is a lid, so it's like, the top, or the top is a gold lid, so it's like, the top is a halo. They're like, I had no idea that was even the case. I had no idea. And 50% of the population still calls it Halo anyway, like Halo Ice Cream. So this whole fight over Halo Top was pretty much for nothing.

• 46:15Guy Raz?

  Yeah. So, so from what I understand, like, this is also a pivotal moment because, you know, you're, I think, in, in, from what I understand, in 2013, you did about a little over $200,000 in revenue. So still very small brand, but you know, it's, it's not discouraging. But I guess you, you were, you were having, and you alluded to this a little earlier, quality issues, like with, you know, the ice cream not being consistent. Sometimes people would get it, it would be chalky, it would, it wouldn't, you know, it had to thaw for a long time. Tell me what the problem was.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it was kind of like, starting to be a come to Jesus moment, where it's like, I do not understand why this stuff is not selling the way it should sell. And especially with how good it tastes off the line. And really, it just came down to this supply chain issue, to where you never knew what you were gonna get. Like, half the pints were rock hard, another 20% were chalky and just kind of ruined. So that was the big, that's why 2013 and 2014 was by no means a runaway success. There were some financial difficulties, especially with cash flow. But it really, I think, came down to the fact that we didn't have much of a marketing budget, and the product just needed to be more resilient through the supply chain.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  And it was at that point I realized, I need to get serious with a food scientist here.

• 47:41Guy Raz?

  So what did you do? Did you, did you have to change the recipe?

• 47:45Speaker 01

  I did, yeah. I went up to good old Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. It's really cool. They have a dairy science department. We signed an NDA. I went up there with my recipe and doing the testing at this place was just so seamless. And it was a pretty funny experience. Like when I went and parked by the dairy science building, I almost hit a cow. Like I pulled, pulled into the spot and this cow's snout was hanging over the curb and I almost ran into the poor guy. Very agricultural, you know?

• 48:16Guy Raz?

  And what were they doing? They were test, they were trying to figure out why you were having these quality issues?

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were trying to use different ingredients and adjusting some ingredients just to make it more resilient through the supply chain. And the big challenge too was we had to use quote unquote all natural ingredients, which is again a problematic term. But what I mean by that is Whole Foods approved ingredients. They kind of set the bar for what all natural is. And there were some ingredients that would have been simple additions to make Halo Top more resilient, but that I wouldn't be able to stay in Whole Foods if I had used that ingredient.

• 48:51Guy Raz?

  Well, like, like what, like what kind of ingredient?

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I can't even, like monoglycerides, words that would, words that are really boring.

• 48:59Guy Raz?

  Yeah, right.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  A lot of these things.

• 49:03Guy Raz?

  And, and how long did it take to get the, to get it down, to get it down right?

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Took about six weeks. You know, all of these things in the food business, it moves like an aircraft carrier, not like a little boat.

• 49:13Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  And by the time we were able to make it and buy the ingredients for it, put it in a packaging, get it into stores, you know, it took nine months. So even though that was done in 2014, the new recipe didn't hit until 2015.

• 49:27Guy Raz?

  So given that the cash flow situation was challenging and you were certainly not profitable.

• 49:34Guy Raz?

  What was your cash situation like in 2014?

• 49:38Speaker 01

  The entire company was funded by my legal salary and my credit card debt. And the good thing about being a lawyer is that you have high income and you get huge credit limits. I guarantee you my credit card companies really regretted that. But I was funding it through my legal salary and through about 300,000 in credit card lines, credit card debt. And as could be expected, that eventually ran out. You know, we were kind of hanging by a thread in a number of stores. Like, you know, your sales are just on the cusp to where we could almost discontinue you or lower your SKU count. So, yeah, it was not a runaway success by any stretch.

• 50:19Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  And so we actually raised our first round and we raised two rounds of money totaling a million, which is really not a lot. And it was a combination of that was kind of all we could get. So, for example, we raised a little bit of money in 2013 and we raised money in 2015.

• 50:38Guy Raz?

  And you raised, in 2013, you raised it from?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  From mostly friends and family.

• 50:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  And I didn't want to give up control of the company whatsoever, so we did not want to get in bed with venture capital firms unless we absolutely had to, gun to our heads, you know?

• 50:53Guy Raz?

  So, I mean, how close were you to, you know, you've got the debt, but I mean, were you ever close to a place where you thought, I don't know if this is going to make it, or were you always confident you were going to be?

• 51:04Speaker 01

  No, it's kind of a mixture of the two. I still really believed in the stuff that I was, I don't know if I ever would have been able to give up on it. I just thought it was such a slam dunk. It wouldn't be so much that the company would go under, but we would have had to get in bed with the wrong people. An example is, I don't want to sell them out, but the founders of a major, major company that everybody's heard of, met them for lunch and they were going to invest a million in the company, which would have saved the company. But of course, they wanted control. I'm a control freak. I had 100% control. I didn't want to give up any control. You know, these guys are sharks. That's their business.

• 51:45Guy Raz?

  Yeah, sure.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  You can't hate on them. This is just what they do. And so every negative stereotype and every fear I had about working with a VC firm came true, indeed, when we got their offer sheets. And worse, they want, they thought the product should be marketed toward the senior citizen market, just like those Ensure protein shakes. So that certainly wasn't my vision for Halo Top. And, you know, so it, the fun thing is to say, yeah, the company would have sunk. That's so dramatic. But really, we would have just taken money from an entity that would have steered us in a very weird direction.

• 52:23Guy Raz?

  Yeah. All right. So you're, you're trying to figure out how to deal with this cash crunch, right? Meantime,

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:32Guy Raz?

  in 2014, Sprouts, from what I understand, they dramatically reduced how much Halo Top they're buying because I guess it's not selling.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sprouts was my crown jewel before, when it was just me. And we got kicked out. We just didn't sell enough for them. Yeah, it was very demoralizing.

• 52:51Guy Raz?

  That has to be the majority. That has to be more than 50% of the stores you were in by that point.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  I think that it was somewhere pretty close. I don't remember it being quite that dramatic because we did have a steady climb in store growth. I couldn't tell you what percentage of stores.

• 53:06Guy Raz?

  Independent stores and?

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Independent stores and other chains because we had UNFI as the distributor. So they were putting us in a lot of stores that we didn't even know about, to be honest.

• 53:15Guy Raz?

  But you weren't selling at Sprouts?

• 53:17Speaker 01

  That's right. Look, there's no way to minimize it. Whether that was 50% of our stores or 20% of our stores, it was crushing financially and mentally. It was a big deal. And I-

• 53:31Speaker 01

  I'm trying to remember if that happened before or after we were actually raising money because it came at a really awkward time. We might have just closed our second and final round for about 750 grand and then got kicked out of Sprouts and it was like, oh, sorry, guys. Our bad. So just embarrassing, too. It's just embarrassing.

• 53:51Guy Raz?

  So, so in like 2015, you're definitely still, you know, you're still a relatively small ice cream brand, right? In a sea of ice cream brands, but, but one of the things that, that you, because you didn't have a whole lot of advertising dollars, right? And you really start to lean into like, like Facebook and Instagram ads, which is like 2015, 2014. And this is sort of like the peak of really hopping, hopping on that, on that train, right? Because you could target people based on their backgrounds and their interests and their zip codes and things like that, right?

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know how everybody is mortified by figuring out just how much data Facebook knew about us? The only people who liked that were us marketers. It was so, I was like, man, this is so invasive but so useful.

• 54:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  They could track, if you liked a page on Facebook, they could track that, link it to your wallet and find out what type of products you were buying at the store. But it was also very useful in making sure that our ads got in front of the right people.

• 54:58Guy Raz?

  So who was, who was the kind of, like, who was the kind of person you were targeting?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Our main target was, I always just basically said soccer moms. The type of people who liked Greek yogurt, you know, more or less. It wasn't, it wasn't ice cream gourmet people who tended to be the people who hated on top the most. You know, we tended to really do well with millennials, but I didn't quite foresee that coming. I didn't quite realize that they were so health conscious and stuff.

• 55:28Guy Raz?

  And, and so to like a soccer mom, what would the message be?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  That was just kind of the general one, which was like ice cream that you can feel good about eating.

• 55:37Guy Raz?

  So you're like a perfect angel, halo, right? This idea like you can eat this and not, it's not sinful.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. I think we even put in some of our ads, a halo over the pint.

• 55:49Guy Raz?

  Okay, that brings us to 2016, which was unprecedented. One of the unprecedented moments in the history of food, I think, in, let's start with what happened, which started with an article. So what did you know about about the making of this article?

• 56:06Speaker 01

  I knew nothing, nothing. That's what made it so funny is I got a Google alert for Halo Top, realized GQ had written about it, and I opened the article with my hand covering my eyes, like with a little crack between my fingers, like, oh, God, what did they write?

• 56:20Guy Raz?

  Thinking they were about to, they were about to just trash it.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had no idea what they were going to say.

• 56:27Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, how the content of that article completely changes the trajectory of Halo Top. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

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• 57:56Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. So it's early 2016 and Halo Top Ice Cream has a new formula, new packaging, and a small amount of investment. And then GQ magazine prints an article about it. And Justin, he can barely summon up the courage to read it.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  But it was actually a fantastic article. A guy named Shane Snow, who I absolutely, I don't know, but I still love him. Even if I wasn't the founder of Halo Top, I would still want to read this because all that he did was eat Halo Top for 10 straight days.

• 58:32Guy Raz?

  He ate Halo Top for 10 days. He wanted to show what it was like to eat only Halo Top for 10 days.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, not just eat it for 10 days, eat nothing but Halo Top for 10 days and talk about his experiences every day. So it was a really unique article.

• 58:49Guy Raz?

  And this was not, it was not an article you pitched at all.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 58:53Guy Raz?

  You had no idea he was working on this.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  No idea. He must have pitched it to the editor and the editor was like, all right, you're crazy. Go for it.

• 59:00Guy Raz?

  I mean, I'm just thinking, that's not a good thing to do because, you know, we need fiber and roughage. I'm just thinking about, you know, things that I can't talk about here on the air. But just what would happen to you after 10 days of just eating pints of Halo Top?

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Well, if I remember correctly, Shane was very good at actually putting in the advice of a nutritionist who indeed told him, you're being stupid. Don't eat, don't do this. But he was very honest about everything. Obviously, he was like, by day five, I'm sick of this stuff. But he's talking about how he hit new records in the gym. And after day 10, he's like, I don't even want to see Halo Top. But you know what? I found myself a week later getting more of it. So it was just like a fantastic viral article.

• 59:46Guy Raz?

  And when did you start to see the ripple effects from that GQ article? How long after?

• 59:52Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I can give you an example. In 2015 is when the new product, both on the inside and the outside, hit the shelves.

• 1:00:01Guy Raz?

  The new formula. Re-formulated and new packaging.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. In 2015, and we started to see a little bit better turnover rate in stores. And so it was all primed. Uh, all the good stuff was on the shelves from it like Shane was in New York City and LA and everywhere. Uh, pretty much on the shelves at 2016. In March 2016 and that month alone, in March isn't a great month for ice cream. March 26 alone, 16 alone, we did more revenue than the entirety of 2015. And then 2016, just from March, just got went up and up and up and, uh, staggering levels. It was just unbelievable.

• 1:00:38Guy Raz?

  Uh, I, I've seen one figure that said your growth in 2016, you had 2,500% growth year over year. From 2015 to 2016, 2,500% growth in one year.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, we set sales records, obviously, but I think we might've set all time sales records. A company isn't supposed to grow that fast, you know, it, it became a phenomenon.

• 1:01:05Guy Raz?

  No, that's insane. You, so just help me understand the demand because you're going from now selling, I don't know, uh, maybe a hundred thousand pints a year to like 25 million pints a year.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it was just insane. And the issue with it is it's not just, um, like, uh, any company that hits a big. There were unique challenges because it was ice cream. Uh, for example, nobody knew how to handle this. So the stores, let's take a Whole Foods. They couldn't keep it on the

• 1:01:42Guy Raz?

  It's like Tickle Me Elmo in 1985. Yeah.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  They, like, the supply chain had problems, like Whole Foods couldn't keep it on the shelves. But these stores only have so much room allocated in the back for extra overflow ice cream.

• 1:01:57Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  And so they couldn't order enough of the stuff and they had to change their entire design, how they store foods to hold more ice cream. Because what you do with ice cream is, you know, you buy a pint of Ben and Jerry's. You go Sunday and you watch Game of Thrones and you eat the pint of Ben and Jerry's. It's like a once a week thing or once a month.

• 1:02:15Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  People, for the first time, were buying an ice cream for every single day of the week and buying 14 pints at a time, in some cases, so.

• 1:02:24Guy Raz?

  Cause they could just do it.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and to be honest, I think what fueled it a little bit was when you go to a store to buy something and it's always sold out, that just drives the fervor even more. So when you do see it, you're like, screw this, I'm getting every single pint here, you know? So it's.

• 1:02:40Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  It's a plus, it's a pro and a con. I mean, it's mostly a con, you want to sell it if people want it, but there are some upsides to not having availability.

• 1:02:50Guy Raz?

  How are you dealing with that demand? I mean, you had one co-packer, as far as I understand.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, I can't quite remember if we had one or two co-pack. I think we had a, I think we had more than one, but it was just immediate, all hands on deck. Uh, this is where Doug really shined, cause he was COO. There are only so many ice cream factories in the nation and they're all taken up. So we had to beg and cajole to like, get space and our co-packers were like, what is happening with this brand? There's no way you're possibly ordering this much product. And so we were working out ways to build on to their factory, not buy our own factory, but to do a kind of build and lease, uh, thing where we put a new line in their factory dedicated to Halo Top.

• 1:03:39Guy Raz?

  You would pay for all the equipment?

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, we would, we would pay for it and then they would pay us back. It was a really complicated arrangement.

• 1:03:46Guy Raz?

  And, and, and you would say, just, we'll, we'll, we'll build you a line dedicated just to our product in your factory. So you can do all the other ice creams there, but we need you to focus this line on just ours.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  That's right, and I, I don't, I'm not too sure if there was a single ice cream, a serious ice cream co-packer in the nation that wasn't working, uh, with Halo Top at that point. We needed everybody.

• 1:04:07Guy Raz?

  I want to get back to this in a moment, but let's talk about 2017, because that year.

• 1:04:12Guy Raz?

  I can't believe, I mean, it's one of the craziest stories in food, I think, in the last 50 years. This, this brand, Halo Top, that was like, two years earlier, a tiny brand, like a minnow in an ocean of ice cream brands, becomes the best selling ice cream pint in the US, beating Ben and Jerry's and Haagen Dazs, 300, almost 350, 350 million dollars in sales a year.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  You want to know what a crazy part of that is? Our brand awareness, at that point, when we became the best selling ice cream, our brand awareness was just over 50%. That means half the population didn't even know what Halo Top was. I mean, compare that to like Ben and Jerry's, where 100% of people know.

• 1:04:59Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  So, the people who liked Halo Top freaking liked it, you know what I mean? And it was a daily ice cream that other ice creams just simply weren't. You can't eat a pint of Haagen Dazs every day. Lord knows, we all wish we could, but you can't.

• 1:05:13Guy Raz?

  I mean, you didn't have an office, you had no physical office space, you had no physical factory, you outsourced the factory, the production, you had, everybody was working remotely, and the distribution was handled by a distributor, and what, I mean, it was a lot of the things you were doing were outsourced.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. In the co-packing thing, there are quite a few really successful ice cream companies that don't own their own, own factories. So, the co-packing thing is a little bit normal, but yeah, there was a lot of, a lot of outsourcing.

• 1:05:48Guy Raz?

  I mean, just incredibly efficient. I mean, a business with no, with very little overhead, doing 350 million dollars a year in sales.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that was my focus, was efficiency. I think so many of the kind of... Corporate habits are just such time wasters and just inefficient. And so that was always something to get away from.

• 1:06:11Guy Raz?

  I should, I should add that the ice cream was very polarizing, still is. It was definitely polarizing. Some people were like, oh, this isn't ice cream. This is, this is just, you know, it's stevia. It's not like, if you want ice cream, get real ice cream. Just have a couple of spoonfuls of it, you know, or, right? You had haters out there.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  Absolutely. We never got defensive over that. I mean, think about how bad of a look that would be if we came on and said, oh, well, you're not real ice cream. I mean, who? We just kind of, there's just nothing you can say to that. Some people are purists. I can tell you that in 2017, there was a period where I could tell that we had peaked and it's kind of like a band had gotten too popular. And the, the sentiment of us kind of being like a cool brand was starting to shift. It started to become cool to hate on Halo Top a little bit more. Does that make sense?

• 1:07:02Guy Raz?

  Once you, once you saw like everyone, it's like Von Dutch, right? You ever see that?

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:08Guy Raz?

  Those hats?

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Especially here in SoCal.

• 1:07:09Guy Raz?

  Right, like they're cool? And then all of a sudden, like, everyone's wearing them and like everyone, people wearing them to church and like, this isn't cool anymore. Would that kind of start to happen to Halo Top?

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Yes. And to me, I always think of bands, like Nickelback. Everybody loves them at first and they're just top of the charts. And then it's, everybody just begins.

• 1:07:27Guy Raz?

  Poor Nickelback.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Poor Nickelback.

• 1:07:29Guy Raz?

  Everybody hates on Nickelback.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  And actually, that's why I made a very, very weird ad that, talk about polarizing. I mean, it is a very weird ad, a very avant garde ad, where it's like this sci-fi dystopian future and there's a robot trying to feed this woman, saying there is only ice cream.

• 1:07:48Guy Raz?

  It's an old lady, right? It's like an elderly lady, you know, feeding her ice cream.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:52Guy Raz?

  And everyone around her is dead?

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes, it was dark. It was weird. It was a very love it or hate it. The marketing world loved it. And that was partly, the reason I did it was partly because I could kind of sense that we were becoming very uncool. And it was honestly kind of like a band trying to stop making pop music and release something arty, something artsy like their jazz record. That really was kind of the impetus for that. I could sense that we were becoming uncool.

• 1:08:23Guy Raz?

  Yeah. From what I understand, part of you probably was nervous about growing so fast, so quickly.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  Right. The real worry was exactly what happened, which is we somehow managed to fly under the radar of the big guys. Like, they let us exist. They didn't squash us like the bug that we were for, you know, four or five years. And then suddenly in 2016, and then in 2017, especially when we became the best-selling ice cream, the cat was out of the bag. And so every single ice cream maker, even from startups to Unilever, were just straight up making copycats. And the one that hurt the most, and yes, I use the derogatory word copycat instead of competitor, because it makes me mad. It's like a song.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  It's hard for me to understand why you can't patent a food, that people can just write your same song. I mean, it makes sense, and nobody will empathize with me because everybody likes competition, and I get it, but it's still, I'm still raw about it.

• 1:09:30Guy Raz?

  You can't patent a recipe. You can't.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  You cannot, no. And what really, what really started to cut into our bottom line was that stores would make Halo Top knockoffs.

• 1:09:42Guy Raz?

  Like Kroger had their own brand, I think.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And I think Target did.

• 1:09:47Guy Raz?

  And they were cheaper.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  And of course, they were cheaper, and they got the better shelf space.

• 1:09:51Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  We had a copycat brand come out, and they copied our design so much that we actually sent them a cease and desist, but they copied it so much. And in their calorie counts on the front, they put the lower number, the per serving number, and to be clear, there's four servings in a pint of ice cream. So if there's 280, we would have 280 in the pint. We'd put 280 on there. They would put 70. And so it was like kind of an underhanded clever trick.

• 1:10:20Guy Raz?

  There are four servings in a pint of ice cream? That's not true. I thought there was one serving in a pint of ice cream.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  Isn't that crazy? Isn't that crazy?

• 1:10:27Guy Raz?

  That's just my pint of ice cream. Yeah.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like a candy bar is like two servings or something. You're like, what?

• 1:10:33Guy Raz?

  That's crazy.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  Who is ever gonna-

• 1:10:36Guy Raz?

  Cut a candy bar in half.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  And I got four servings. Who eats a quarter of a pint?

• 1:10:41Guy Raz?

  Nobody.

• 1:10:44Guy Raz?

  I, from what I understand, you, when you started this business, right, already at the beginning, you know, and we've had entrepreneurs on the show who are like, I'm never going to sell my business. I'm going to do this forever. Or some who say, well, you know, we'll see, but this is a, you know, this is my career forever. I want to do this. You, that was not your intention. Your intention was to build a brand and eventually to sell it from the beginning. You were clear about that, right?

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Well, 1,000%. Yeah. I mean, I had unlimited passion for the stuff when I made it. I mean, it was like my life. I had such a fire to get it done, but it was never, I want to have an ice cream business that I can hand down to my son one day or anything like that. I wanted to get it big and to sell it to a company.

• 1:11:27Guy Raz?

  So at this point, 2017, 350 in sales, you would think, okay, here's your golden opportunity to sell this business. And I have to imagine you had suitors coming to you.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  We did. We constantly had suitors. In 2017 is when we got real buy, real offers to sell the full company. But even, you know, before then, I mean, every venture capital firm in America was, in some cases, sending people to my house to knock on the door.

• 1:11:58Guy Raz?

  Because they wanted in.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  Unsolicited, yeah. To be like, hey, we want to buy 20% and we'll give you this valuation.

• 1:12:03Guy Raz?

  Probably for amazing terms.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, right? I mean, better than what it would have been in 2015.

• 1:12:09Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. What's funny is when I first founded Halo Top, it was in my cheap little apartment in this place in West Hollywood on Genesee Avenue. And I'm talking about, it's in an area where it's like next to a liquor store and two pawn shops. And I would have my neighbors take pictures of this kind of very low rent place of like, one venture capital guy showed up with a gigantic, human-sized golden spoon and basically sat outside my door for an hour. And my neighbor was filming him and sent it to me. And it was like-

• 1:12:39Guy Raz?

  Wow. That's crazy. I didn't know that they were that, like, shameless.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  Me neither. Isn't that crazy?

• 1:12:45Guy Raz?

  And, and, and why didn't you take any of their money? At the time, were you just holding out to sell?

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Well, they

• 1:12:51Guy Raz?

  Sell the whole thing?

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  They wanted to give us money when we already had boomed. You know, it's like a little bit like

• 1:12:57Guy Raz?

  And now you're profitable. Now you're really, you've got a lot of cash.

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And what was unique about that sales growth for Halo Top is we grew so fast that actually we were flush with cash to where we didn't have really cash flow issues.

• 1:13:10Guy Raz?

  Wow, wow. So you just ignored these people?

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  Yes, 1,000%.

• 1:13:17Guy Raz?

  So in, in the year 2017, when you were just, it was gangbusters. Were you and Doug at that point like, all right, we got to find a buyer now is the time to do it? Or, or did you decide to wait?

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we were already in talks with the, the people that you would think we were in talks with.

• 1:13:34Guy Raz?

  The Unilevers and the Nestle's and the big, maybe not those exactly, but, but big

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  That's basic. That's basically right. I mean, they were approaching us. We weren't actively looking to sell at that time. But it was like if an offer came along that we couldn't refuse, well, we wouldn't refuse it. It was in 2018 that we decided to actually go on an offensive like a sales pitch rather than just being defensive.

• 1:14:00Guy Raz?

  How much? I'm just curious about that because I think you, you made a very smart decision and I'm not giving away the story. We'll get to it. You did sell it, of course, but, but you probably saw that you were gonna start to lose market share as competitors came in and that you really, like the clock was ticking down on the value and every, the longer you waited, the value would decline and that it was probably in your best interest to try and sell sooner rather than later. Am I right about that?

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you are right, but that's actually not the full story. I had been, I was burnt out. I had been doing this thing since 2011, you know? The first two years doing it alone had taken years off my life and probably given me mental issues that I'm still dealing with. And by the time

• 1:14:48Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I can tell. I'm just kidding.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  And then in the time 2018 rolled around, I was either gonna look for a new CEO or I just needed to sell the company. So I'm telling you, if I were refreshed, I probably would have just held on to the company and kind of relished the challenge of getting through all these competitors and having a competitive market. But I was just burnt out, to be perfectly honest. And I was like, I cannot deal with this anymore.

• 1:15:17Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And you really had no, no, no major outside investors. You just had friends and family, some angel investors and, and I guess you're probably some of the folks inside the company had some equity.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course, of course, of course. Yeah. And everything was drawn up to where it was a very easy process. I did have 100% control. So when it came time to the sell, there it was extremely easy. I mean,

• 1:15:41Guy Raz?

  It was your call to make.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would just with a signature, you know, you could kind of, there was no board to run it past or anything like that.

• 1:15:49Guy Raz?

  So you guys shop there, the bank shops is around and you eventually start to negotiate with this, this ice cream brand called Wells Enterprises. These guys were based in Iowa and they made Blue Bunny, not to be confused with Blue Bell.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  That is, that is a very good point. That is a very good point. A lot, common mistake.

• 1:16:09Guy Raz?

  Blue Bunny, not Blue Bell, right? Because people in Texas are going to boycott this show if I say Blue Bunny is from Texas. And, and I, and they, I guess they had ambitions to like be bigger than Unilever in the ice cream space. That was their goal.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  That's right. I think at that point, the, they were the second biggest.

• 1:16:28Guy Raz?

  So you had this negotiation with Wells and they, in, in agreement, they, they were going to acquire you for 100% cash deal, no, no, no stock, nothing like that.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%. That was one of my conditions. Cause like I said, One of the reasons I wanted to sell was that I was just flat out burnt out. And so one of the conditions was I'm not doing a thing. I mean, I was willing to stay on for three to six months to transition to the next CEO or whatever. But I was like, there's not going to be some two-year standard earnout where I've got a boss and I'm sitting there obsessing over our earnings in order to hit a certain earnout. That wasn't going to happen. So we were clear about that upfront during the sell process.

• 1:17:10Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Did the, because you were, you know, the sales were declining from 2017. That was to this day, by far, your peak year.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 1:17:20Guy Raz?

  And, and they were declining 10, 15, 20% year over year now. Did that have an impact on the negotiations?

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Um, I'm, it 100% did because it was, it wasn't 2017 anymore. You know what I mean? There was no place to go but down, to be honest. Revenue and earnings is like the end all be all during a sales process, right?

• 1:17:41Guy Raz?

  Yeah. They, they, they bought you out, undisclosed amount of money, but I think fair to say that you did better than you would have done had you stayed on as a partner at Latham Watkins.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  I was able to buy my parents a house and I was able to pay off my student loans. And seriously, those were the two things that I don't have a lot of, I don't have expensive tastes. Those were the two things that made me very, very happy.

• 1:18:03Guy Raz?

  So you signed the contract, the next day you're done. You're not Halo Top anymore.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  I'm done. I woke up and I'm thinking like, oh my goodness, you know, it's over. What the hell am I going to do with my life? And for, for two, three years, I seriously just vegged. It had taken so much out of me that I did, it's like, remember that movie Office Space? Where he's like, what would you do with a million bucks? And he said, nothing. And they were like, nothing? So I die, that was me. I was like, I am doing nothing.

• 1:18:35Guy Raz?

  You just like ate pints of Ben and Jerry's and watched Netflix?

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, thank God, I don't have to eat Halo Top anymore. I was just scarfing Ben and Jerry's.

• 1:18:45Guy Raz?

  Doug stayed on, your CFO, he stayed on. He did a deal with Wells and he took over international distribution of Halo Top. And was that sort of the last time you guys worked together?

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, more or less. And they actually just released a product line called Gatsby, which is like a chocolate version of Halo Top.

• 1:19:09Guy Raz?

  Yeah. It's like a low calorie chocolate.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:12Guy Raz?

  Are you an investor in that?

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am. But it's absolutely fantastic. And you've got all the Halo Top rock stars. You've got like, I mean, exactly what I should have done. You've got 20 people at the start. You're not trying to do it solo. You've got all this expertise in terms of grocery stores and everything. I think it's going to be a big success and it's a great product.

• 1:19:31Guy Raz?

  And so in the meantime, what do you, how are you keeping busy? What are you, are you investing? Are you, I don't know, do you go out? Do you, and I'm just, I'm just curious, yeah.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I have a lot of passive investments out there and I'm happy to give some advice to people who need it. I got a wonderful girlfriend, finally. I gave up on girlfriends for 10 years while I was doing Halo Top. Not a chance. So have a wonderful relationship.

• 1:20:01Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Let's just say I'm looking for something else because it's, you know, I've got hobbies and I play basketball, but there's nothing I'm doing that's impressive right now that people would care about. Let's put it that way.

• 1:20:14Guy Raz?

  Here's, here's a sort of weird question, but I, I ask people from time to time about this because it's, it is awkward a little bit, right? When, you know, when your life changes the way it does, things can get awkward. Like you did not grow up with money. You graduated college with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt or law school. And then you had this huge success with this brand, which, you know, you sold and enabled you to become wealthy. How does that change interpersonal relationships? Like, everybody you meet now is going to look you up and know you started Halo Top. And they'll know that like, you did well. Does it, does it change how you interact with people or how you make friends? Are you nervous that people are just kind of want some of your money or want, I don't

• 1:20:58Guy Raz?

  know, or something from you?

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a really personal question, but I'm happy to answer it. And you, you touched on it.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  People come out of the woodwork and there is all, people are much nicer to you. But when you do meet new people, you, it's, I've met a lot of people who are like, oh, man, this guy's genuinely nice. And you know, three days later, he sent me an investment deck. You know what I mean? It's like, do people like me for me or do they like my money? Uh, so yeah, that's definitely, your hackles go up a little bit, uh, on that point. Like I'm friends with startups. I've had a couple awkward experiences. Um, yeah, so it does affect things a little bit.

• 1:21:38Guy Raz?

  When you think about this journey that you've taken, I mean, how much of this do you, do you attribute to, to the grind and the work you put in and how much of the success do you think had to do with luck?

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, that's a good question. I guess I would have to say it was about, I, I would have to say 50/50, I guess. I mean, that, what a cop out that is, huh? But it took-

• 1:22:02Guy Raz?

  It's okay, it's all right.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  But I founded the company in 2011 and it took until 20, like 15, 2016 to see signs of life. And so, I mean, it's hard to attribute anything of that to luck. That was pure grind, probably a level of psychosis of not giving up and still believing in the stuff. And then I knew it could be successful, but the fact that it was that successful, that it was like a phenomenon like that, that was, there was a lot of luck involved in that. You know what I mean? I, I, I was fully confident that it could be a pretty good ice cream that could, you know, get into the top 10 or something like that and, and provide a good living. But becoming a phenomenon, there was a lot of luck, a lot of right place at the right time involved in that.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  So I'm going to give you the cliched cop out answer and say 50/50.

• 1:22:52Guy Raz?

  That's Justin Woolverton, founder of Halo Top Ice Cream. By the way, last year, Wells, the parent company of Halo Top, was bought by Ferrero, the Italian group that owns brands like Tic Tacs, Keebler Cookies, and Nutella. And whenever Justin thinks back to 2019, when he sold to Wells-

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  The one thing I regret is that when I sold the company, I did not get- Free ice cream for life, or something like that. So when I get a Halo Top, I still have to go to the store and buy it, which I think is kind of unfair.

• 1:23:26Guy Raz?

  You can afford it. I'm not, I'm not, I'm playing the world's smallest violin for you. You can afford it.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  Come on, it's the principle.

• 1:23:33Guy Raz?

  I'm playing the world's smallest violin for you. You can buy the Halo Top. You can buy me the Halo Top.

• 1:23:40Guy Raz?

  Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you want to contact the team, our email address is [email protected]. If you want to follow us on Twitter, our account is at How I Built This, and mine is at Guy Raz. On Instagram, we're at How I Built This, and I'm at Guy dot Raz. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant, with research help from Alex Cheng. Our production staff also includes J.C. Howard, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Elaine Coats, John Isabella, Chris Messini, Carla Estevez, and Kira Wakim. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.