Legendary Manager Freddy DeMann | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan welcomes legendary manager Freddy DeMann, the architect behind Michael Jackson and Madonna’s rise to global dominance. He breaks down the exact moment he knew Michael was different, the fight to pair him with Quincy Jones, and how one bold call turned “Shake Your Body” into a global smash. He reveals how MTV was forced to finally play newly transcendent artists, what it took to push past label politics, the high-stakes power struggle with Joe Jackson, shaping Madonna’s rise and working alongside Billy Idol. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  When I told my wife that I wanted to be a manager, she said, Freddie, I'm gonna divorce you if you do something so stupid.

• 0:37Billy Corgan?

  Not everybody makes the transition from I want to be an artist to I want to be in the business of art.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  I loved the art of making music.

• 0:47Billy Corgan?

  What did you see that you thought, okay, this is a star?

• 0:50Speaker 01

  She runs out of the room crying hysterically and locks herself in the bathroom and doesn't come out.

• 0:57Billy Corgan?

  You were around for some of the wild years.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:00Billy Corgan?

  You know, when you say to somebody, how do you know what a record's hit? Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong, but you get a feeling for it.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  I'm never wrong.

• 1:11Billy Corgan?

  Freddie Deman, thank you for being on my show.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  It's great to be here with you.

• 1:14Billy Corgan?

  We don't have much to talk about, but we'll try.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  We'll ad lib.

• 1:18Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. Let's start at the beginning, I think. Because trying to do my research on you, there's not that much information on your early life. I mean, it kind of tends to pick up where you start as a record guy. But give me kind of a sketch there to start.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  I just want to ensure one little thing. A gentleman, a fellow named David Siegel, did a documentary on my life. And when he started, he says, there's no information on you. You never talked to the press. I said, I never did. I made that part of my MO. Because I wanted my artists pushed in the front. And I'm not the guy who, you know, Michael Jackson, the guy who succeeded me with a big cigar. And he put himself next to me, here I am. No, that wasn't me. I just didn't believe in that. So there's very little about it. But I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Come from a, you know, poor family. We struggled. Um, uh, we never, my mother always used to say, we can't afford it. Whenever I wanted, I had voracious appetite for everything. Everything I saw, I wanted, needed. And no, we can't afford that. We can't afford it. Chill out, you know, although they didn't use the word chill in those days.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  But, uh, and as a kid, so when I was a real little kid, I used to imitate Danny Kaye. He was my idol and

• 2:51Billy Corgan?

  And at that point, he was, I guess this

• 2:53Speaker 01

  He was huge.

• 2:54Billy Corgan?

  I get you would say like late 40s, early 50s, one of the biggest stars in the world.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct.

• 2:58Billy Corgan?

  Can I just, cause I love Danny Kaye too. You have any sense of why he's been somewhat kind of forgotten? Which I think is strange because he was such a huge star.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  He was a huge star, but his movies are on, you know, Netflix or Prime.

• 3:12Billy Corgan?

  Do you agree with me that he's been somewhat forgotten?

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Yes and no.

• 3:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Yes and no. And, uh, so, uh, by the way, I ran into him at Schwab's Drugstore in Los Angeles on Sunset Boulevard and, uh, he was picking out birthday cards or whatever cards as, as was I. And I like froze when I saw him. It's, and I wanted to talk to him, but words wouldn't come out of my mouth. And I blew that situation and it's one of my great regrets. Not talking to Danny Kaye. And we had a house in, uh, on Tower Road in Beverly Hills. And he lived right down the street. I could have knocked at the door and he was that kind of guy. He would have let me in.

• 4:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  But anyway.

• 4:02Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So he's your idol. You're imitating.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  My idol and I would imitate him. I took tap dance lessons. I took drum lessons and

• 4:09Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I wanted to be a star somehow. I wanted to be, and then I went to the army after graduating from high school. Um,

• 4:23Speaker 01

  The government put out this RFA Reserve Federal Act. We went in for six months active duty and then you were in the reserves for a few years. And if you went in before your eight and a half birthday, you only spent three years active reserves, which meant every Monday night and two weeks of the summer. You know, to get to stay in shape.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Anyway, when I came out of that, I wanted to be an actor. Why? Because I worship Marlon Brando. And, and in my crazed mind, I said, well, he looks great in a T-shirt and I look great in a T-shirt. That gives me, that means I'm an actor. Wrong, way, way, way wrong, you know? You can't get farther wrong than that.

• 5:15Billy Corgan?

  But did you actually try to act or audition?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went to acting school.

• 5:19Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Right after the army. And I realized immediately that I didn't have it.

• 5:24Billy Corgan?

  Did you want to be like a method actor?

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I.

• 5:27Billy Corgan?

  You had no, no method?

• 5:29Speaker 01

  I couldn't do it. I always thought there was a mirror and I kept seeing myself and I hated what I saw.

• 5:35Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Is that weird? And, and I said.

• 5:38Billy Corgan?

  Was it overly critical mind?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess. And I, I don't like myself in this role. And if you want to act, produce the movie and, and put yourself in the picture. But, but don't, you're, you're never going to make it.

• 5:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  And I got rid of it, but that's my affinity for artists. I love artists because I, I desperately wanted to be one and couldn't.

• 6:05Billy Corgan?

  Was it, was it the attraction to the, to the glamour? Was it the attraction to the art? What, what?

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Art, it was the art, you know? To this day and every day, if I see a great movie and you have, first of all, you, you break it down and the dialogue is like breathtaking.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  And speaking of kind of combining the army and acting, I re-saw recently A Few Good Men that Rob Reiner directed. And the dialogue by Aaron Sorkin.

• 6:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Is drop dead gorgeous. It's wonderful and so accurate. And as a guy who spent a little time in the military, he got it right. He got everything right. It was so wonderful. So, and then you see performances, you know, Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise going at it.

• 7:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  And that scene, it's, it's.

• 7:02Billy Corgan?

  Well, Frank Capra used to say that the only way to film reality is to film it at 130% speed.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:10Billy Corgan?

  That movies in particular, like it's a compressed form of life, but you're sort of trying to find the right balance of it feels real. But you obviously can't have a 30 minute conversation on screen. You don't have to still down to a three minutes.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  And I, I love music. I used to go to, when I left Brooklyn and moved to Manhattan, I used to go every Wednesday night to the Palladium, which was on, on Wednesday night they had Latin bands.

• 7:38Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  And I used to smoke a little reefer.

• 7:42Billy Corgan?

  Reefer.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Dates me, doesn't it?

• 7:45Billy Corgan?

  Yes, it does.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  And I would stay by the timbali player and the kunga player. And just, and I danced a little, but, but I loved.

• 7:56Billy Corgan?

  Is this like Tito Puente and Machito and those guys?

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Cuban bands, orchestra.

• 8:02Billy Corgan?

  Did you ever see, is it Machito or Machito? Is it Machito?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:06Billy Corgan?

  Like Charlie Parker used to play with Machito. Did you like, were you a jazz guy too?

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:11Billy Corgan?

  I mean, New York, New York at that time must have just been amazing.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  It was fabulous. I used to listen to Symphony Sid on the radio.

• 8:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  And it was the greatest show.

• 8:20Billy Corgan?

  Talk a bit about your parents because I think, you know, a story like yours is so unique. And were your parents interested in show business or was there a business side to your parents? Like, what, where does, because you, you know, you, you didn't become who you became by accident. It had to come from somewhere.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Well, my mother really embraced children. My father didn't. He was a very funny guy and a cool guy, but he was in the insurance business and it's something that he hated. And, and I could spend time talking about it, but he, he suffered from severe hypertension. And in those days, I had no drugs for it. And

• 9:02Billy Corgan?

  What is, because I literally said the other day to my wife, I think I have hypertension. She said, you don't. But do you remember what hypertension is? Is this like?

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Do you mean the number? Yeah. 120 over 80 is considered okay.

• 9:15Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  And anything less than that is better. Anything more than that gets progressively worse.

• 9:21Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  And it does eat at you as it did him, my father. And I had a driver, he used to go at night to people's homes to try to sell them sure life insurance. And even at that young age, I was like 14, 15, I knew this was, this is a terrible idea, you know?

• 9:42Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  But he started losing sight in his eyes. I used to drive him every night and he used to, I used, he worked for the insurance company, had to add up all the numbers and there was no calculators in those days. And he said, you cannot make a mistake.

• 9:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  I didn't do it as a threat, but I just said, if you make a mistake, you got to redo this whole column is this big. And my mother was the showbiz girl and she's the one that sent Danny Kaye a letter saying, my son is this and this and this. And he answered her and he sent her two tickets to the Roxy Theater. And she put me on, she'd go talk to him. He said he would talk to us. And I tugged on his jacket, my mother wants you. And he came over and he chatted us and that, I think, moved her and moved me in a magnificent way.

• 10:36Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see. Um.

• 10:40Billy Corgan?

  So growing up in New York at that time,

• 10:44Billy Corgan?

  just give me the atmosphere in your mind because you had an attraction to show business. And you said you wanted to be in it, but like, you know, there's the storied aspect of Broadway. Obviously, you were going to see artists play. Just give me a sense of the New York atmosphere. Because did that ignite something in you that maybe ignited your passion for the business? Because that's, that's something that's, not everybody makes the transition from I want to be an artist to I want to be in the business of art.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  First of all, in my teens, I had a rough teenage years because one or the other parent was always sick in and out of hospitals. It was kind of trying time. Plus, I worked part time. The first, third term high school, we went in the afternoon. So I had a job in the morning. And then it became, went to school in the morning and I worked afterwards. So I had no social life. I was very, believe it or not, shy. And I was forming. I was, you know, coming out of the womb. I was still coming out of the womb, if you will. And all I did is play ball. You know, had a bunch of guys. We had a baseball team.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  And, and I read a lot. I read Schopenhauer and I read Ferlinghetti and I read, you know, everybody.

• 12:07Billy Corgan?

  Fairly heady stuff, right?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted to improve myself and educate myself and become something else. Then I guess I was subconsciously very unhappy with who I was.

• 12:20Billy Corgan?

  Was it, was it an economic thing? Was it seeing what your parents were going through?

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Both. It was both. It was, it was kind of rough years. And it was the army, believe it or not. I felt I had to prove myself to me that I could do all these things. And my father did not want me to go into the army and

• 12:45Speaker 01

  I just said I have to do it. I didn't, he probably knew that he was gonna die. And that's why he said, you'll never be drafted. I didn't, I didn't know what he meant. I said, everybody's getting drafted. I don't want to be drafted. Um, so I'm gonna, and anyway, I was physically, it was the great thing because I could do anything they asked of me physically. Mentally, hmm, not so good. But it, but it was, it made me who I am, and this is embarrassing, but I'm gonna shut my phone.

• 13:18Billy Corgan?

  It's a famous artist calling you, see.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Sorry about this.

• 13:23Billy Corgan?

  It's okay.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Should have done that earlier.

• 13:28Billy Corgan?

  I forget to ask, so.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, so that, and then the same friend who got me into the army, who talked me into it, got a job at Jubilee Records in New York. And I, what do you do? Well, I get records played. You go to a radio station? That's for me. I gotta do that.

• 13:55Billy Corgan?

  Here we go.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  And that's how it began. And, and, um, you know, and they hired me at $75 a week, which was 25 more than I thought I'd get. And I, man, I would took off, like, I visited every radio station. I drove around.

• 14:16Billy Corgan?

  What was your circuit?

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Well, they, he says, you can't do New York because you're too green. You can't do Philadelphia, but we're gonna give you Pennsylvania and New York. So you'll get.

• 14:26Billy Corgan?

  Go prove yourself.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, go prove yourself. And I did. And, uh, but I used to drive around every town and look for antennas. Because in that, below that antenna was a little cubicle where a disc jockey was doing a show live. And, you know, I did pretty good. Then I met this disc jockey in Philadelphia, Jared Blavat, the Gator with the heater, as he was known. And, uh, he got all the kids in Philadelphia, all, if you wanted.

• 14:57Billy Corgan?

  Was he like, well, there was, there was, well, Dick Clark started in Philly too, right?

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. He danced on Dick Clark's show when he was young.

• 15:05Billy Corgan?

  Because back then Philly could break records.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Philly was like, whoa. It was a great town.

• 15:11Billy Corgan?

  For people don't understand the music business is so different now, as you and I know. But back then you could break a record in a regional.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 15:19Billy Corgan?

  It didn't have to be New York or LA, even in Chicago.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Right, right. So, go ahead.

• 15:25Billy Corgan?

  Just walk me through walking cold into a radio station. I'm fascinated by the old record business.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is the early days.

• 15:34Billy Corgan?

  Here's young you.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  When I walked into the Gator, because I did research, he's a guy. And I, it was a little funky place in Camden, New Jersey. And it was a 250 water, but it beamed into Philadelphia somehow. And they were against Wybg, W Y B G, which was a 50,000 watt station. And, you know, they had huge reach. But here's this little station, and this guy was charismatic. And all the kids used to dance to him, have record hops and do all these things. Nobody knows what a record hop is now.

• 16:09Billy Corgan?

  I remember.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  But I walked in and I looked, there he was behind a glass thing. It wasn't air conditioned. It was August, it was hot as bejesus out there. And I walked in, I said, hey, where you going? Go to see the Gator. No, you can't go. Who are you? And I'm Freddie DeMann, Jubilee Records.

• 16:32Billy Corgan?

  Exactly.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  No, he can't see you now. Yeah, yes, he can. And we got into a shoving match. And the Gator sees me, quays me in. And we were talking like we knew each other all our lives. And he said, what do you got there? Well, I got, I remember the record, Snap Your Fingers by Joe Henderson. He said, I don't play that. What else you got? I said, well, I got this great record, I Love You by The Volumes. Said, you know, they've been after me for two weeks to play that and I wouldn't do it. I'm gonna play it for you.

• 17:03Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  What?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  And he played it three times that night. Um, and the next morning, you know, there was a little buzz and all that.

• 17:15Billy Corgan?

  So I did, I like to do my research. Uh, top stars of Jubilee Records in the sixties, Bobby Freeman.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 17:23Billy Corgan?

  Uh, the Cadillacs.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, this was before me.

• 17:26Billy Corgan?

  Okay, this is before you.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay, Dela Reese.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:29Billy Corgan?

  Uh, Don Rondo.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:32Billy Corgan?

  And they also had like Jim Backus, the comedian and Rusty Warren.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Rusty Warren was the biggest seller.

• 17:37Billy Corgan?

  So give me, give me some of the artists that you were attracted to.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  The Bobbets.

• 17:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Um.

• 17:42Billy Corgan?

  Cause you're in your youth. I mean, you're, you're, you're literally the record buying public.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's right. Um, the Bobbets were, were wonderful and I took them around.

• 17:53Billy Corgan?

  I don't know the Bobbets.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 17:55Billy Corgan?

  This is like a doo-wop type.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  One, two, three, whoop.

• 17:58Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Look at Mr. Lee.

• 18:00Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah, great song.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Three, four, five.

• 18:02Billy Corgan?

  You know, I know that song because a DJ in Chicago, that used to be his introduction song.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 18:06Billy Corgan?

  Play it. Cause he, he, his last name was Lee. So every time he'd come on the radio as his opening, he'd play that song, coming and going on a shift.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Ah, that's great.

• 18:17Billy Corgan?

  And so I know that song because I heard it 500 times.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  And speaking of Chicago, I, I, they gave me a raise and said, we want you to become Midwest.

• 18:29Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay. Now we're, now we're talking.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  And, uh.

• 18:31Billy Corgan?

  Are we talking Dick Beyond D times and?

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and, uh, I said, oh, so you want, I'll travel to, you know, Chicago, St. Louis, Pittsburgh. He said, no, we want you to move to Chicago. I said, Chicago? I don't want, I don't want to live in Chicago.

• 18:46Billy Corgan?

  That would have been my reaction too.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Okay, we'll get someone else. He says, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 18:49Billy Corgan?

  No, no, hold on.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 18:50Billy Corgan?

  Slow down.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  My kind of town, Chicago is. And, uh.

• 18:55Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  But, but I really didn't have records for WLS and, and pop. I loved the black DJs and, and I used to hang out with them.

• 19:05Billy Corgan?

  Was it, was the, was the, was the label more, uh?

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, more black oriented.

• 19:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  At that, uh, time.

• 19:12Billy Corgan?

  So what would have been the station in Chicago?

• 19:14Speaker 01

  W V O N.

• 19:15Billy Corgan?

  V O N, yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  A great, great.

• 19:17Billy Corgan?

  My dad used to listen to V O N.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Really?

• 19:19Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  And great characters. What wonderful guys. I had the best times with them and, uh.

• 19:26Speaker 03

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• 19:36Speaker 04

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• 19:56Billy Corgan?

  It's just a side question. I wouldn't have thought to ask it, but you know, not everybody from your generation really understood or celebrated black artists in the music business, particularly at those times. And you know, racism back then was pervasive. I mean, did you, did you, in trying to go into some of these stations and playing great black artists, did you face some of that?

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I felt so at ease in the black stations and so ill at ease at like WLS. I just, I couldn't, I couldn't relate to these guys. I could only relate to these other guys.

• 20:30Billy Corgan?

  What was it about the, the white stations that?

• 20:34Speaker 01

  First of all, I didn't have the music.

• 20:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you're walking in with the wrong.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  And they were too square.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  And you know, I, I just had difficulty in finding a middle ground that we could talk about. Whereas I was just at ease and I wa, you know, I sat with them as they, and you know, you gotta, in the middle of a sentence, stop talking when they press that button and they're live. You know, the music's playing, but now they're, they're live. And you know, I just, it was great camaraderie. And I have other stories that I probably shouldn't say on this show.

• 21:13Billy Corgan?

  We're here to talk about whatever you want to talk about.

• 21:18Billy Corgan?

  Were you, were you at Roulette when there was that, because I love, I love this record. Excuse me, Last Kiss.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 21:26Billy Corgan?

  Were you, were you, were you at Roulette when that?

• 21:27Speaker 01

  No, I was not at Roulette. But I was friendly with the guy who owned Roulette. I suddenly blanked on his name, but he was a little bit of a gangster.

• 21:37Billy Corgan?

  Oh, Morris Levy.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Morris Levy, yeah.

• 21:40Billy Corgan?

  Can you, I, I mean, you could talk about it however you want. You, you did some promotion work for Roulette, or am I crazy?

• 21:45Speaker 01

  No, it was Jubilee and then.

• 21:47Billy Corgan?

  Wasn't there some crossover though between Jubilee and Roulette though, wasn't there some? Oh, okay.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  But Morris, you know, he was the godfather of all the music business and he would do the talking for everybody. And he was infamous and famous.

• 22:07Billy Corgan?

  My father came of age in the, in Chicago in the sixties and oftentimes talked about the mob influence in the music.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:15Billy Corgan?

  You want to address that in any way in particular, I mean, it's been, it's been off explored, but I, I think people that are modern music fans don't understand how pervasive the influence was back then of mob using labels and, and Morris Levy has oftentimes been accused of being sort of a an extension of all that. I mean, you saw it firsthand, but I mean, you could talk about whatever part of it you want.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't personally, you know, no one ever threatened me. You know, I think I was too, at that point I was unimportant, you know, I was just a.

• 22:48Billy Corgan?

  But you must have heard those stories about being people getting threatened.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  I knew who's who and I knew, you know.

• 22:53Billy Corgan?

  Cause there's notorious stories where they would walk in somewhere, but wise guy going, you're going to play this record.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:58Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 22:59Billy Corgan?

  And then.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  That did happen.

• 23:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And Tommy James, I read Tommy James's book and he of course was on, on Roulette and he said Morris stole him, stole money from a blind and, and all that stuff, so.

• 23:13Billy Corgan?

  Did you, did you ever go to sessions with the artist? Did you ever go? Cause.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  I went to.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  I was at a label after Jubilee. It was called Amy Malabell. And we named it at my request, Bell Records. It had a sound and that's where I-

• 23:33Billy Corgan?

  Is that the same bell that went on to be a label in the seventies?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Became Arista.

• 23:38Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay. Wow.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  That's, that's a history there. And I worked for a guy named Larry Utah. It was a wonderful guy. And it was just he and me and his secretary. That's how we started. But we signed Lee Dorsey, James and Bobby Purify.

• 23:53Billy Corgan?

  Wow, I love those records.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Great, great records.

• 23:56Billy Corgan?

  I have those. In fact, I have those on the original label.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Really?

• 24:00Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my God, those records.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Del Shannon.

• 24:02Billy Corgan?

  The Purify. Is it Purify?

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels.

• 24:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Okay, I know that label because I have that.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  So that's, that's when I came into my own. And, and that's when I-

• 24:12Billy Corgan?

  So that's your, like, your, your peak promo period?

• 24:14Speaker 01

  This was, yeah. And this was everything and um.

• 24:21Billy Corgan?

  What's the, what's the great Purify Brothers hit? I'm trying to think. Do you remember?

• 24:25Speaker 01

  James-

• 24:25Billy Corgan?

  You remember the Purify Brothers?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  James and Bobby Purify.

• 24:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but what's that? There was that one hit that-

• 24:31Speaker 01

  I'm your puppet.

• 24:32Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my God.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Great.

• 24:33Billy Corgan?

  So good.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  One of the great songs and records.

• 24:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. See, my father loved R and B. So I grew up with all that music. And then, of course, later I went and found my own version of it. But so I heard that stuff in the house.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:45Billy Corgan?

  So I understand, I relate to what you're talking about. Because, uh, because I watched it with my father where people would oftentimes say racist stuff to him because he loved black music. Like, why you listen to that type of music and stuff? And he would defend it. He would say, this is the better music. You know, I'm just going to where the music is. So he loved everybody from, you know, The Shy Lights to Stevie Wonder, whatever. So I grew up in, so I understand the conviction you must have had.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  He's well-rounded, your father.

• 25:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, he, he just, he'd grown up in a black neighborhood. So he grew up steeped in the music. And he was colorblind, at least as it came to music. And he, he would just say flat out, I'm sorry, black music's just better than white music. He just, he felt that very strongly.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Right. And the, and the funny thing is, and I shouldn't say it, but I'm gonna say it. From there, I went, I moved to the West Coast. And I got a job at, I was offered this job at Dot Records, which was the whitest record company on the planet Earth.

• 25:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  And their artists were-

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Lawrence Welk, Billy Vaughan, Pat Boone.

• 25:52Billy Corgan?

  My dad hated Pat Boone.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Right. And that, how in God's name would I ever take that job?

• 26:01Speaker 01

  My affinity was to black music all the time. This was so white that I couldn't even believe it. And, um, and talk about being unable to converse. Hello?

• 26:14Billy Corgan?

  Sorry to laugh because I totally understand what you're saying.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  So here's another little story, which I think you'll, you'll like. So I got friendly, I was very friendly with a lot of disc strikers, very friendly. And one guy called me, I'm now on the Dot Records. And I'm going to do it in my, in his voice to the best of my ability. I'm not being racist or anything, but Freddie, a man putting his band together. We bad man, we bad. You gotta come up to see us. And he was from San Francisco. And I said, hmm, and I love this guy. We were real tight.

• 26:52Billy Corgan?

  Is this Sly Stone you're talking about?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Sly Stone, yeah. And, and I.

• 26:55Billy Corgan?

  That's when he was a DJ, right?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he was the smokingest DJ. He, it was so cool, the show.

• 27:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Everything he said and white kids, black kids, they.

• 27:06Billy Corgan?

  Well, he had that beautiful gift of speaking for everybody.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  He did, he did. He was amazing, amazing. And I didn't go up to see him because there's that one black person working at Dot Records. There's not even a guy sweeping the floor. Everybody is white. I said, how am I going to ever bring this guy to walk the halls? When he doesn't see a brother or sister?

• 27:30Billy Corgan?

  Oh, he's.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  It's going to embarrass me.

• 27:32Billy Corgan?

  What am I going to sell him? Yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:33Billy Corgan?

  There's nobody here that he's even going to relate to.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  So I didn't go. And then, so my friend, David Kaprilik of Columbia Records swooped in and signed him to the label. And I think management and he said, Freddie, you're the only one I trust. Would you look at the contract? I said, Sly, man, you're a friend of mine. He's a friend of mine. I can't be in the middle. I'm going to, somebody's going to be angry.

• 28:00Billy Corgan?

  Bad, yeah.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  You know? And I never spoke to Sly again.

• 28:04Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  That's sad. It's so sad. And.

• 28:11Billy Corgan?

  I understand the feeling.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:13Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 28:15Billy Corgan?

  So was it strictly work that brought you west?

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Um, it was, I had visited LA on business trips several times and I was mesmerized. I was absolutely mesmerized.

• 28:30Billy Corgan?

  This is the, this is the town.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  And in those days, it was just the coolest place. Everybody was nice. Everybody was cool. Everybody looked good. Nobody wasn't handsome or beautiful. Every single person in, you know, my, where I came from, you know, New York is kind of tumultuous and mean streets. And this was, this was wonderful and it sun shone, shined every day. It was beautiful.

• 29:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  And it was just a different thing and, and, you know, everybody was a little foolish and I loved it.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  You know?

• 29:15Speaker 01

  And I remember talking to a disc jockey who was at Martini, Martoni's restaurant, right off of Sunset and Coangai thing. And, uh, hey, I'll see you tomorrow night for dinner. Oh yeah. Okay. Great. Neither of us meant it and neither of us showed up, but it was just a wonderful, full of goodness that I, I just loved about Los Angeles.

• 29:45Billy Corgan?

  Um, okay. I think I got this correct. So tell me, there's a short stint here with Eureka Records.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 29:52Billy Corgan?

  I couldn't find much information on Eureka, but my one understanding about Eureka was it was heavy soul.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:59Billy Corgan?

  Like late, are we talking late sixties, like real, real deep urban soul?

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Like sixty nine, I think.

• 30:04Billy Corgan?

  I found a couple of the records. So I kind of got the general gist, but there's almost no information on this label.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Well, it, it died a early death.

• 30:12Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Um, and I signed a couple of acts. I, I worked for, after Dot, I went to Kent Modern Records, um, which you've probably never heard of. It's a blues company owned by the Bahari family.

• 30:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  And, uh, Jules Bahari was the senior, the older brother and he kind of ran it.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  And they signed and hopefully that I won't get sued. They ripped off every black artist that they ever signed. They were just thieves and it made me very uncomfortable. And I remember when Martin Luther King got shot. I said, well, you're gonna close your doors for the funeral. You're not gonna, you're not gonna be open. Of course, we're gonna be open. They were so callous and so cold and couldn't care less about the artist. Most cases were black and it was a very uncomfortable situation.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  But they had B B King, they had Lowell, Lowell Folsom.

• 31:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  They had that wonderful accent. And that's when I wanted to make records. And so there was some guy, believe it or not, from like either the four freshmen or the, one of those real early, early.

• 31:43Billy Corgan?

  Four lads or something.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Four lads. One of them I got friendly with and he taught me had a mixed records and had a master.

• 31:52Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, and got the sound and I became so enchanted with that. Although as a producer, cause I did produce, I found and signed a band called Pacific Acid Electric.

• 32:05Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  P G and E.

• 32:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Um, and we made a record and the drummer and I produced it. It's awful and it, cause I knew nothing, I knew nothing.

• 32:15Billy Corgan?

  Do you remember where you recorded at?

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, uh, I think it was a studio on like Cowanga or something. Um, I'm not quite sure, but.

• 32:30Billy Corgan?

  I'm just always fascinated by the, you know, cause back then studios were so primitive compared to today.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I know I remastered like almost every record at Kent Modern Records. I'm jumping places and subjects.

• 32:42Billy Corgan?

  Sure, no, I'm, I'm interested.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  But you know, I, I loved the art of making music.

• 32:48Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  And, and I, my ear, it was precision. Everything has to be precise.

• 32:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, that's at the, that's at the foundational root of making hits, right?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you have to have the soul, the story, the melodies and.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Michael Jackson, when I visited him in Paris in 2008, the year before he died, because I wanted, he had just been, I'm really jumping subjects.

• 33:18Billy Corgan?

  That's okay.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  He had just been acquitted of child molestation and he was deep in debt. I said, Michael, this is your moment to do like a phenomenal world tour. You'll make countless, you'll make hundreds of millions of dollars. You'll be out of debt. And I went, I wanted to speak to him eyeball to eyeball. We were no longer in business. It stopped in 83. This is 90, this is what, 2008?

• 33:47Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  So it's a lot of years, but we maintained a friendship, a wonderful friendship all those years. And I think he was in Dubai or someplace. So Fred, come, come see me. And.

• 34:04Billy Corgan?

  Good imitation.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  And I said, well, where are you? Well, I'm in Dubai.

• 34:08Billy Corgan?

  Dubai.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Where would you like to go? I said, oh, I don't know. I like Paris. He said, oh, great. I have a meeting there in three weeks. Why don't you come?

• 34:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  I did. And the last thing he said to me as I left his suite, he says, Fred, tell your girl she's forgetting about melodies. What he meant was tell your girl, quote Madonna,

• 34:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  that she's now embracing hip hop and not doing

• 34:40Billy Corgan?

  Ah, I see.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  her melodies.

• 34:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  And he was right. But I said, first of all, she's not my girl. I haven't seen her in, you know, 10 years at that point. But you're right, she is forgetting about melodies. And he taught me the importance of melodies.

• 34:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So jumping back to Pacific Gas and Electric.

• 35:00Billy Corgan?

  This is at the end of the 60s, beginning of the 70s. Music's in this kind of post 60s transition.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:06Billy Corgan?

  Where now the music business is starting to become a business.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:10Billy Corgan?

  Where before it was all over the place, as you know. And it's my understanding, but tell me if I'm wrong. That's kind of, was that the first kind of big artist that you managed? I mean, they weren't big, but they had a hit and.

• 35:24Billy Corgan?

  Pacific Gas and Electric.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't manage them.

• 35:26Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I thought I thought I read somewhere where you managed.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  I worked for the record company.

• 35:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  And produced that first album.

• 35:33Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so walk.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  And then they left the company, which I don't blame them.

• 35:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  And they said, come with us, Columbia is gonna sign us.

• 35:41Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's right.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  And come with us, and do you work with them, you know, manage and produce and this and that. And I stupidly said, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick it out here.

• 35:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  And I was dumb because the, one of the brothers, the Bahari brothers, who I was most friendly with and took an interest in the regular, was there a discount, the regular?

• 36:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Company, not the discounted record company. Uh, his name was Saul, and he, uh, got a stroke, and then he got a heart attack, and he died. And when he died, they just didn't give it to us.

• 36:22Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  So I had to leave anyway.

• 36:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but, so, you know, you kind of show up with Michael and the Jacksons, sort of, seventy-nine is the general date I found, but before we get there, in these years between, let's say, Pacific Gas and Electric and, and, and hooking up with the Jacksons, it's kind of, your history's kind of vague.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:45Billy Corgan?

  Couldn't find a lot of information.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't have some, I didn't have good years then, um, but the first act, when I decided to go in the management business, um.

• 36:56Billy Corgan?

  Which would have been around what year?

• 36:57Speaker 01

  This is like, uh, seventy-eight, January seventy-eight.

• 37:02Billy Corgan?

  But had, even before then, like, what were you, you were still doing ra- radio promo or?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  No, yeah, I was trying to make a living.

• 37:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  And, uh, I wasn't succeeding, to be honest. I, I managed to, you know, get by.

• 37:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  But, but I, I had, it was.

• 37:16Billy Corgan?

  When you, okay.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Terrible years.

• 37:18Billy Corgan?

  I, I assume you were married then?

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so when you come home after a hard day of not doing well, like, what are you telling your wife, like, we gotta change?

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Okay, so, so the, the, like, that's sixty-nine, seventy, seventy-one, even seventy-two, um, were very unproductive for me, very unsuccessful, unproductive. And then I, I needed a job, a J O B, and I called my friend Steve Wax, who was at. Electra asylum and said, I'll take your, I know you're looking for a West Coast regional guy. I want the job. And he said, Freddie, you want to read? I can't do that. I can't let you do that.

• 38:04Billy Corgan?

  Because it was a step down.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, big step down. He said, I'll call you back. And I called back and says, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring you into the company. You'd be national, but you have to move to New York for 10 weeks. David Geffen was running the company and we're moving back to LA. But we, I can't afford to put you up. You have to do it all on your own. And so, but that turned out to be great in terms of who David signed, which were the Eagles, Linda Ronstadt.

• 38:39Billy Corgan?

  He had a good run.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. He was good.

• 38:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  And Harry Chapin, who was already on Electra and we had nothing but success, nothing but hit after hit after hit.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Freddie Mercury and Queen.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  And we broke Bohemian Rhapsody, which everyone said, radio will never play a six minute.

• 39:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, six minute.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Six minute record. It won't happen.

• 39:08Billy Corgan?

  So that's your fault.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  And we were, you know, we were.

• 39:11Billy Corgan?

  But, but stop me. Let me stop you for a second. Stop me.

• 39:18Billy Corgan?

  When you said things started to go bad, it's, I can't imagine it's because you got worse at your job. What was, what changed in the music business that made those years rough before you ended up with, with?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  I just, I think I lost my mojo somehow. And I like tripped over myself. I can't offer any better explanation.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  I just wasn't progressing. I just wasn't moving the ball. And it seems like doors were closed to me, even though I kind of had a good reputation in the industry.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  I couldn't get things to work. So I went to Elektra asylum because I needed the job, frankly.

• 40:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  I needed to work. And, and at some point, I said, this, this is not your future. You'd never.

• 40:15Billy Corgan?

  Because you could, you could have done that job for the rest of your life.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Right, I could have. I was secure. There was no problem. But I said, promotion is like athletics. You're, you're through at an early age. You just got worn out by the habits that you did, which I won't go into unless you want me to, which I will.

• 40:35Billy Corgan?

  Please.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  But.

• 40:36Billy Corgan?

  I'm, I'm, I'm curious about it all and I, I want to, I'll, I'll, when you're, when you're done, I want to tell you something that I think you'll resonate with.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 40:42Billy Corgan?

  Please.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  So during those mid seventies at Elektra asylum, we were all doing a lot of blow. And.

• 40:50Billy Corgan?

  And. That was the time.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  We, that was the time and, and we had great fun and great things, but you get worn out quickly. And I saw guys doing things that they shouldn't have. And I was always in charge of myself and I never overdid anything. But that's when I knew that that was not my future. My future is artists and I want to be with artists and I want to manage artists.

• 41:16Billy Corgan?

  But what's the first time you go, you know, I don't have to say look in the mirror, but what's the first time you're like, I want to be an artist manager? Because obviously that changes your life, that decision.

• 41:27Billy Corgan?

  Or was it something that just grew over time?

• 41:29Speaker 01

  I think it just evolved. It just evolved. And when I told my wife that I wanted to be a manager, she said, Freddie, I'm going to divorce you if you do something so stupid.

• 41:44Billy Corgan?

  I understand.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  You can't, you know, you have a great job, you're making a living.

• 41:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, basically, from an outside perspective, you're in the top of your profession.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:54Billy Corgan?

  You're with a hot label.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:56Billy Corgan?

  You're probably killing it because you've got all these great artists. It's gotta be a lot easier to walk in and say, I got a new Eagles record.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:02Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 42:03Speaker 01

  And those were wonderful, fun days in those mid seventies.

• 42:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  But I wanted to do the honors, and not only did I do it, but the first thing I did is I got myself a brand new red Porsche. Why?

• 42:20Billy Corgan?

  Because you're gonna have to go and make the money.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Feel better about myself.

• 42:24Billy Corgan?

  Sometimes I spend money because it forces me to have to get up off my rear end and go work.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, uh, and, uh, my wife didn't divorce me.

• 42:36Billy Corgan?

  The reason I wanted to say something was, um, the best people I've ever worked with in the music business were former promo guys.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Really?

• 42:45Billy Corgan?

  Yes. The man I'm thinking of off time, I had God bless him, he's passed away, Phil Corderero used to run.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:51Billy Corgan?

  Used to run Virgin. He was, he was my president when I was at Virgin.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  He was the greatest, greatest.

• 42:56Billy Corgan?

  But see, he was an old promo guy.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 42:58Billy Corgan?

  And he had that street feel.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:01Billy Corgan?

  That promo guys get about records.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:03Billy Corgan?

  About bands, about artists having a moment. You know, we're, a lot of people in the music business, for them, it's intellectual. Well, the people, the thing, promo guys don't think like that. They're like, how am I gonna get this record played? You know what I mean? I just, they have a different feel for the business.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 43:24Billy Corgan?

  Maybe best way I can say too, that you might understand is, yeah, as a musician, you relate to the world in a musical way. I know that sounds maybe a bit arty, but it's, there's a rhythm to music and there's a way you kind of work. And it's not always intellectual. You just, you have to feel your way through things.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:41Billy Corgan?

  And in the music business, from the business side, the promo guys are the closest thing to musicians in the music business.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 43:47Billy Corgan?

  They have a sense of a, there's a feeling that you get, you know, because when you say to somebody, how do you know what a record's a hit?

• 43:55Billy Corgan?

  Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong, but you get a feeling for it.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  I'm never wrong. I have to tell you, first of all, I never promoted a record that I didn't believe in.

• 44:06Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Cause.

• 44:07Billy Corgan?

  Okay, tell me, how about, let me play, play this game with you. So when you had a record that you had to sell, I mean, it's your job, but you don't believe in the record, what, what would you say? Or would you be honest and say, look, I gotta, I gotta put this across your desk, but I don't think it's a great record. Would you, would you be honest with the DJs or the promo guy?

• 44:23Speaker 01

  I would be, but there's so many records that you're handling. I just, and let's say your boss said, we gotta get this one. And I know it wasn't a hit. Um, it's very difficult.

• 44:35Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  But I wouldn't bring the record to the radio station.

• 44:39Billy Corgan?

  So integrity was important to you.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Integrity was everything. And, and you know.

• 44:44Billy Corgan?

  So when you told a guy, hey, or a girl, hey, I really believe in this record, you believed it.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 44:50Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  And I, I guess that came through.

• 44:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Because they, most of the time played it.

• 44:56Billy Corgan?

  So what's the first artist that you actually managed?

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Lawrence Welk's daughter-in-law, Tanya Welk.

• 45:03Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Um, she was a good singer, very good singer. But she didn't have a sound, that commercial sound.

• 45:12Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Whereas Madonna has a sound.

• 45:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  A very distinctive sound. Um.

• 45:18Billy Corgan?

  I mean, there's no, Madonna sounds like Madonna. There's nobody else.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 45:21Billy Corgan?

  Who sounds like.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  And I love that sound. And, uh, you know, she's a huge.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  You know, when I first met her, there was, she came into the office, it was like, whoa, she had such presence, such, more than presence. She was like over the top and like burning with ambition.

• 45:42Billy Corgan?

  Well, we'll get to Madonna's ambition in a second.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  But, but Tanya Welk was just a good singer and I liked her and I figured, well, I'll find songs for her and we'll. Make good records. She was touring because of that show and and things.

• 45:58Billy Corgan?

  And the Welk, the Welk brand was huge.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:02Billy Corgan?

  Television.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 46:03Billy Corgan?

  Touring dates.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  She was on the show every week and, you know, people came to see her.

• 46:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  She was great. Um, I also thought she could be a TV star and I tried and I did not succeed with that one.

• 46:15Billy Corgan?

  As in hosting her own?

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Well, no, trying to get her in a sitcom.

• 46:19Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  You know, I believe she had those chops, um, but it didn't work out. And then I signed a guy from a previous record company, Kent Modern, and I produced one or two of his records and remixed all of his old catalog, ZZ Hill. You probably never heard of him, but he was a great blues singer.

• 46:39Billy Corgan?

  That's where ZZ Top took part of their name.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, uh, and that, you know, I said, well, we'll get a hit on the first record. You know, I'm trying to figure out how am I going to make a living? We'll get a hit on the first record. We'll tour, we'll this, we'll that. And we did get a hit on the black side. But it never went pop and I was out of my mind at that time. And the bottom line is nobody wanted to tour him, you know? It was just a tough sale and, uh, it didn't work out. And then, you know, I wasn't the most busy guy in the world having these two artists and this woman used to come up and see us and I was partnered with this fellow named Ron Weisner.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  And, uh, and she came up to me and we got friendly and says, you know, I'm friendly with the Jackson family. They're looking for a manager.

• 47:30Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Are you interested? And I said, you mean Michael Jackson, the Jackson Fire? Yeah, that's what I mean. I said, I'll take a meeting.

• 47:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Now, why wasn't I more gung ho? Because they had left Motown and gone to Epic Records and they couldn't buy a hit record if their life depended on it. They just be- They were huge childhood stars, but completely lost favor. They had, they didn't know what to do.

• 47:59Billy Corgan?

  So I'm, I was born in 67, so I remember these times and I remember people talking quite openly, even in my family, about how Michael's voice had changed.

• 48:10Billy Corgan?

  Because of course he'd had all this success when he was young with that super high voice and this there was kind of a feeling that like he went like a lot of child stars he wasn't going to make this transition to be an adult star. So is that kind of the sort of thing that you walked into? Was that your impression or do you have a different impression?

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Well, I thought his he the sound that he had was phenomenal and the brothers were great. They were handsome. They were.

• 48:36Billy Corgan?

  Certainly charismatic.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  They were charismatic and they should have been stars, but they weren't. And I was bent on making them stars.

• 48:43Billy Corgan?

  So when you had the meeting, because obviously it's an important moment in music history, when you have this meeting, is the idea that he's going solo or he's still trying to figure out the Jackson Five thing?

• 48:53Speaker 01

  No, not yet. So they were just going in the studio with two producers, one of whom worked for Epic Records, a house producer and the drummer for a, oh. Anyway, I'll come up to it.

• 49:12Billy Corgan?

  It'll come to you.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  And they were making this record and and everyone wanted to put out Blame It On The Boogie. And I said, mm, you know, it's a good record, but it's a mid charter. No, you know, you don't know. You're full of, you know, I said, no, no, I'm telling you, it's a mid charter and I don't think we should come out with that as a first record. But I was I was just the new kid on the block. Everyone, the producers, the band, everyone wanted to do it. Okay, let's do it. And it mid charted and I got all of my, I was very good at promotion because I did it all my life at SEM and I knew all the

• 49:53Speaker 01

  indie promo guys. And, you know, we really tried. It never got out of like maybe top forty or thirty eight or something. And and then Jackie Jackson wanted to put out a song called Things I Do For You on the album. So no, no, we're not doing that. There's one hit on this album, one, and it's called Shake Your Body Down To The Ground. That's what we're putting out and I will break Before the record company knows it's out, I will get it on every station. And that's exactly what happened.

• 50:25Billy Corgan?

  So you broke it even though it wasn't even a single?

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Well, it was.

• 50:28Billy Corgan?

  Well, you got it.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Two weeks later, they put it out.

• 50:31Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Because suddenly there's a lot of stations playing it and it got instant reaction. And it became sold like two million singles and it made the album.

• 50:40Billy Corgan?

  And then they're back.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  And now the Jacksons.

• 50:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but let's walk back just a little bit. So first impressions of Michael, because at that point he was hardly a hot star. So what's your first impression of Michael Jackson?

• 50:54Speaker 01

  So Michael, Michael was a little genius.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Work, always in front of a mirror, doing his dance moves and reinventing himself. And every brother wanted to do a solo album. I said, guys, guys, guys, you can't do that. If anyone does a solo album, it's your lead singer. I mean, that's logical.

• 51:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  And, uh, and Michael loved that. I said that. And he was friendly with Quincy Jones from the film The Wiz.

• 51:28Billy Corgan?

  The Wiz, yeah.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  And they liked each other immensely. And they said, if Michael puts out a solo record, Quincy will produce it. And, um, and I said, oh, this is easy. This is going to be fantastic. Well, Joe Jackson, the father said, why am I going to pay Quincy twice as much as another producer? I'll get another, I'll get anyone. No, no, no, Joe.

• 51:55Billy Corgan?

  Let me stop you real quick. Is, is the father still basically shadow managing the band? So you're having to deal with the, you got five, five brothers, right?

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:06Billy Corgan?

  So you got five brothers, they want to go in different directions.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  And Joe.

• 52:09Billy Corgan?

  Joe's basically shadow managing and he's their dad. He ain't going anywhere.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:13Billy Corgan?

  And then you're trying to, and you, and you have no real resume as a manager.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so now that's, I think the context is important.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. So I had to get through Joe. And in this case, I said, Joe, if it's a hit, there's enough money for everybody. If it's a bomb, a hundred percent of nothing is nothing. You don't owe them a dime. So go with it, just. Stand to the side.

• 52:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  And he said, okay. Then Don Dempsey, who ran Epic Records, said, I don't want Quincy doing it. He's going to make a jazz record. I said, guys, guys, I heard the songs. It's anything but a jazz record. I promise you it's good. And I had a tap dance all over it. He agreed, Don Dempsey.

• 52:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  And we went forward with Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones and made, to me, one of the best records ever off the wall.

• 53:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So, uh, so the idea at that moment, this is 1979-ish, right?

• 53:12Speaker 01

  This is, yeah.

• 53:13Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So at that moment, uh, the band's intact. Michael's just going to make a solo record, but the Jacksons are still together. So that's kind of the situation when that record gets made. Cause I remember watching television. Is it Rock?

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Motown 25th?

• 53:31Billy Corgan?

  No, but no, it was, I remember seeing the music video. Was it Rock With You or?

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:36Billy Corgan?

  Was that the, that was a big single off that record?

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:39Billy Corgan?

  Right? So I remember watching that because I was a huge Michael Jackson fan from when he was a kid. Because we were sort of similar ages. I mean, I, I, if he was, if he was eight, I was five or six. So I, like a lot of kids of that generation, I was like, well, I wish that was me on stage. And of course he was such an incredible talent. I mean, he just seemed to break every conventional idea of what a child star could be.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:04Billy Corgan?

  And I'm sure you remember too, when they would be on TV. I mean, it was a big deal. The Jacksons were a big deal when he was young. But this seemed to be like, wait a second. That's that same guy. And now he's singing these songs. And it was like very contemporary and boom, there he was all of a sudden.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Everything worked. When everything works, and you know better than anyone.

• 54:23Billy Corgan?

  Success has a thousand.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know.

• 54:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Everything fell into place. It was just gorgeous. It was wonderful to be part of it because you saw the magic happening in the studio.

• 54:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  And Michael, who was, you know, very fearful of his father, who was a tough, tough guy, um.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  In the studio, he was like a breath of air. He was so happy, big in this environment.

• 54:49Billy Corgan?

  Was it a certain freedom that he had there?

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he smiled and he, he talked and he, everything. So it was a great experience to watch that, to watch that growth and that period.

• 55:06Billy Corgan?

  I'm not asking you to gossip, I'm more, because I'm thinking of it more as a business question, but you're in this relationship now where you have the father who had been managing them and obviously has a tremendous amount of influence over his kids. How did you navigate that? I mean, I guess what I'm asking was, was your best approach was to be straight with him, or did you have to sort of try to massage it? I'm trying to understand Joe.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Well, Joe had another guy who was like the stand-in manager, whose name, I'm sorry, I forgot, but you might have notes on it, but we replaced that guy.

• 55:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  But they didn't have success during that, that period.

• 55:50Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So once you start having success, now you got his ear and?

• 55:54Speaker 01

  So we, so the first thing with the solo album, by the way, it's a cute story. Quincy Jones wanted to put out Rock With You as the first single. I said, Q, I strenuously disagree because you're just coming off Shake Your Body Down to the ground and we made a 12-inch, you know, a dance mix out of it, which was immensely, it was a number one record, not a number eight record or a number one record. And this 12-inch was like a, everyone

• 56:27Billy Corgan?

  And that's when disco was?

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Disco was like.

• 56:29Billy Corgan?

  Clubs, club tracks.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  I said, you can't follow that with a mid-tempo ballad introducing the new.

• 56:37Billy Corgan?

  Kind of a sweet song.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Michael Jackson, because.

• 56:40Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  If it loses a bullet one week, the radio will throw it all.

• 56:46Billy Corgan?

  And what was the first single?

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Well, he wanted Rock With You, which is.

• 56:49Billy Corgan?

  Right, but I'm saying what was the first?

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Oh, the first single was. Um.

• 56:55Billy Corgan?

  Would have been up tempo.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a great up tempo.

• 56:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Don't stop till you get enough.

• 57:00Billy Corgan?

  Oh.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  And I said, you gotta come with this. This is this, this is the greatest.

• 57:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  And then Michael said to me, Fred, I'm so glad you fought with Quincy and won. I didn't have the nerve to talk to him, so I'm so glad you did.

• 57:16Billy Corgan?

  So, so he told you you're right.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and that became a number one record. So now the Jacksons and Michael, now it's a whole thing. And then the 25th Motown anniversary, when he did the moonwalk.

• 57:28Billy Corgan?

  That was it.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  That was it. And then you had coming on Thriller and the whole album. I mean, you had Off the Wall and Thriller, which every song stands on its own as a piece of.

• 57:40Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's one of the greatest albums of all time. So rather than explore what's been explored a lot, I like to try to work around the edges sometimes. What was your sort of, are you in, in this period of time with Off the Wall and then Thriller, which obviously was, I mean, it's a peak success of which there's almost very few. Maybe, maybe there's not, nothing that even compares to it.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  That's right. The Eagles greatest hits.

• 58:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay. God bless. So what I'm asking is, were you interacting with Michael on a daily, weekly basis? Like, what's your relationship?

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Daily, daily, daily.

• 58:16Billy Corgan?

  What, what would you want? Because, you know, as you, you probably would know, but I was friends with Lisa Marie. So, Presley. So when I became friends with Lisa Marie, this was after she and Michael had divorced. We talked a lot about Michael, the man, Michael, the artist, you know? There's a lot of stuff that she told me in private. So I guess what I'm asking was, what would you like people to know about? I don't, I don't want to say the real Michael Jackson. That's probably unfair, but you know, we all know because there's a public and a private personality that goes on. So what would you want people to know about the, the private Michael Jackson that maybe they wouldn't totally understand?

• 58:56Billy Corgan?

  Since you interacted with him so much, particularly in a period that was so important and so white hot.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, there was a daily, uh, and he was had unbridled ambitions. He wanted to be-

• 59:13Billy Corgan?

  You seem to attract those personalities.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, he wanted to be the biggest, the best, the greatest, and he was. And again, that Motown 25th really did. Plus the videos, the birth of MTV.

• 59:24Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Um, and by the way, they didn't want to play a black artist at that time.

• 59:29Billy Corgan?

  Did they tell you that?

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 59:31Billy Corgan?

  Did they tell you that?

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yes, we won't play. I said, what?

• 59:35Billy Corgan?

  Because, because it was what, too urban or too something?

• 59:38Speaker 01

  They just didn't want to play a black artist because it would affect the, the, you know, the sponsors in the South. And that old, old, old, you know, story. And we just fought tooth and nail and got Walter Yatnikoff, who ran all of Sony, um, to step in and said, I'll never give you another video if you don't play-

• 1:00:00Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  This book. And-

• 1:00:01Billy Corgan?

  So you had a-

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we, we, a lot was going on.

• 1:00:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Um, but, and I mean, we had to give Michael the news that Fred Astaire died. And Fred Astaire was his idol. And, uh, he was so heartbroken. And, and Fred's sister wanted him to come to the funeral.

• 1:00:23Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Which he did.

• 1:00:24Billy Corgan?

  But talk a little bit about, if you don't mind, just, I mean, you could talk about any way you want. The, Michael is an artist, Michael is a songwriter. I mean, what, what would you want people to understand? And maybe they don't understand about Michael. I mean, he's, obviously, there's only a few names, you know? Elvis, Michael, you know, I mean, there's only a few names, Prince, where it's like, the public fascination isn't going to go away anytime soon. You know what I mean?

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  During my reign, which was only five years.

• 1:00:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Um, we were very successful. He didn't have bad habits that I knew about. Um, he was 100% involved in his career, 100% um-

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  I think his nose was more normal in those years. There was, you know, if he had tendencies toward children, he didn't show it. He was just all about business.

• 1:01:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:01:27Billy Corgan?

  But how did you, how did you find him as a person? Maybe is what I'm really after like, you know, I think managers have a front row seat.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:35Billy Corgan?

  To how an artist really is because they hear the complaining, they hear the whining, they hear the, the temper tantrums, they hear the entitlement, they hear the, you know, and, and part of being a manager, as you know, is sort of massaging through the, the storms that come up from an artist because.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  There, there were, there were constant storms and, you know.

• 1:01:55Billy Corgan?

  Slights and.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  But I'll, I'll give you one amusing one.

• 1:01:58Billy Corgan?

  Please.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Because it's amusing. So Michael would find ways to motivate us. We didn't need motivation. As you could see, if you check the charts, number one single, number one album, number one single.

• 1:02:10Billy Corgan?

  Well, number one artist.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  And you can't get bigger than this, but to motivate you even more than that, he would say to me, Fred, remember Irvin Azoff is waiting in the wings. What? What?

• 1:02:26Billy Corgan?

  Irving's still waiting in the wings.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Irvin, Irvin Azoff is still, is waiting in the wings. Why? Could he do better?

• 1:02:36Billy Corgan?

  Well, Irving would.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Irving is brilliant, but, but he ain't gonna do better than what, what was being done.

• 1:02:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Cause you can't get better than number one.

• 1:02:44Billy Corgan?

  So I guess, am I drawing this correctly? Here you have the number one artist in the world. He's winning on every front and he's still thinking, how do I become even bigger?

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:52Billy Corgan?

  And he's putting in a way, pressure on you.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  Correct, correct. That was his way of, no, I didn't need it, but.

• 1:03:00Billy Corgan?

  I like to say that, that, you know, the record business rewards sociopaths. I'm not accusing Michael Jackson of being a sociopath, but there's sociopathic behaviors that all artists have, and I would include myself in that. It's, it's a desire to be loved or cherished or celebrated or win, you know, all, any combination of the, there, of the above, ambition being the, let's call it the central word in that. But.

• 1:03:25Billy Corgan?

  What do you think drove him at that level? You know, that that he wasn't satisfied that he wanted more. Was it pathological? Was it was it just he thought he had more and he did have more? What? How do you? How did you? Maybe in the time, how did you see that? Because it's got to be weird to get a call from the number one artist and we're going, can't we be doing more?

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's right. You know, as I told you, we were friendly after this, the breakup, which, you know, I got the letter from the father or from John Branca saying, Michael has chosen not to re-up with you, which broke our hearts. I mean, I was, I was out of my mind. I was like a punch drunk fighter.

• 1:04:09Billy Corgan?

  How could you? I mean, you're winning.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:13Billy Corgan?

  It's like winning the Super Bowl and saying, no, we've got to go with a different coach.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  That's right. That's exactly, that's a good analogy. And I was heartbroken. I was, I couldn't function even.

• 1:04:23Billy Corgan?

  And you felt you had a good relationship.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  I thought I had the best personal relationship, you know? So it was, it was kind of a shock.

• 1:04:32Billy Corgan?

  Did you? Let me stop you. Did you feel, because it's, it's such a rare era that you were in, in that period. Did you feel like there were sharks always swimming around? Did you feel that vibe?

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  And that shark is named Joe Jackson. And that's true. So I knew that he wanted us out. Why? Because after all of this, these hits, and Motown 25th, and the tour, the next tour.

• 1:04:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  Was going to be like a blockbuster, like the biggest tour in the history. And he didn't want these, and his own, I'm not going to say those words, what he said. But he didn't say it to me, but it came back to me. He wanted it for himself. And that's when he brought in Don King, who gave each brother a million dollars. And he essentially owned them and called all the shots on that tour. And we were expendable. And that's, that's how it happened. So it was a heartbreaker and the tour was. It was a huge success, but Michael, there were so many problems and so many bad

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  things that happened during it. Michael refused to take any money from that tour, which is amazing because it was a huge, huge.

• 1:05:50Billy Corgan?

  But at the time, there was this, I'm going strictly on memory, but at the time, there was a sense that the tour didn't do what people thought it was going to do.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  No, it did the sales, but, but there was.

• 1:06:00Billy Corgan?

  They didn't have.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  They weren't selling, they weren't paying people, they weren't, they were building a lot of animosity. It didn't have the magic that Michael created that should have had a halo around it.

• 1:06:12Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  And it wasn't there.

• 1:06:15Billy Corgan?

  Do you think, do you?

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  The brothers started fighting with each other.

• 1:06:18Billy Corgan?

  Do you think in a way that, I mean, maybe this is an overly simplified question, but do you think in a way Michael's ambition blinded him to understand that there's still a balance that needs to go on, that, you know, that, because I've seen in other artists, so I'm not singling him out, where they get so much juice and so much power, it's like a king who thinks they can't make a wrong decision. It starts to get almost kind of sloppy around them. Because there's so many pans in the till and there's just so much, so many yes people. Do you think that was part of what went on?

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  I, I, I don't know. I think all artists, eventually, and you're an artist, and I don't know what you felt, but at some point, all artists resent paying their manager.

• 1:07:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there's an aspect to that. I think now that I'm older, I have a better sense of proportionality about it. There's certainly always with every, well, I'll use myself. There's always that moment on a tour where you're tired and, you know, it's been a hard go for whatever reason, hard show, your voice isn't great, whatever. And you look and you think, I'm paying some guy sitting somewhere.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:31Billy Corgan?

  When I'm the one who's like away from my kids and.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:34Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? So. Now that just might be tour brain because you, you know, as you know, touring turns you into like a weird animal.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Does, true.

• 1:07:43Billy Corgan?

  You think, you think things and rationalize things that you only would rationalize on tour. So I think that's an aspect to it. So I, I, I, I agree with you foundationally. Yes, there's a point where you think, well, if I've got to pay this guy X, well, this other guy says I can pay him Y.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:00Billy Corgan?

  And.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  And that's what happened.

• 1:08:02Billy Corgan?

  And by the way, I'm, and I, I've certainly done this. I even managed myself at one point. Well, I can do what that guy's doing. And if I could pay this guy this and that, you just do some kind of math in your.

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:11Billy Corgan?

  And, uh, and megalomania is, is the right word. You start to think you, you, you, you, every decision turns to gold. And in his case, he wasn't wrong, even if he thought it was his decision. So.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:25Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 1:08:27Billy Corgan?

  Let's stop for a second on, on, on MTV because you know, here you are, uh, you know, an OG promo guy, you know what I mean? Where you have to go in the station. Now you have this incredible promotional vehicle of MTV. Of course, it's all kind of imploded on itself now in the last 10 to 15 years. But at that point,

• 1:08:47Billy Corgan?

  what was your impression of like, oh my God, I mean, if you can get, if you can get them to play it, everything seems to flow downhill.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  It was like having a national 50,000 watt radio station going across the whole country.

• 1:08:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Or, or, and then some, because now you introduced a visual to.

• 1:09:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  The audio and, uh, those artists that were great in front of a camera really excelled.

• 1:09:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So, um.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  And again, I, I had a wonderful relationship with everyone at MTV, you know?

• 1:09:22Billy Corgan?

  Well, they must've loved you.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  We had a great relationship. Every single person. So it was great and I, I worked it a lot.

• 1:09:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It's all fine. It worked out to everybody's benefit.

• 1:09:39Billy Corgan?

  So where does Madonna come into this picture?

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Seymour Stein, may he rest in peace.

• 1:09:46Billy Corgan?

  God bless him.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Um, was a very, very good friend of mine in New York and uh.

• 1:09:53Billy Corgan?

  That's right. She was on Sire. I forgot.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Yes, Sire. And I remember when he started it and, and all of that. And we used to have so many conversations. I don't know why, but he slept on my couch in New York when I had an apartment there, early, early days. And we used to talk about what, how we're gonna do it, how we're gonna be successful.

• 1:10:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  What we'd like, what we're gonna do when we're rich. And um, we were in love with French food. That was, if you knew how to speak French, you were, you were everything. So we went to French restaurants. That's what we did.

• 1:10:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  On Ninth Avenue. Of course, we could only afford that. Anyway, it's a sidebar. He called me, I was, you know, in Los Angeles, he was in New York, and he said, I have an artist looking for a manager. He actually said, shopping for a manager.

• 1:10:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  And I said, shopping? What is, are my Gelson's or my Wallbound's, you know? No, I'm not interested in a meeting.

• 1:10:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  He said, Freddie, please. Uh, I said, this one's gonna be a start. Oh, Seymour, what do you know? Ba ba ba ba. And I, I said, what's, because he signed all those great bands, he had great bands. And he was always ahead of the game. He was wonderful, wonderful record man. Um.

• 1:11:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, he saw, to give him great credit, he saw value in artists where other people wouldn't have seen any value.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:27Billy Corgan?

  And look how right he was on the Ramones, the Talking Heads.

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:31Billy Corgan?

  I mean, so many great sire artists. I mean, and I will say, oh, I mean, I didn't know Seymour. I met him a few times. But uh, the fact that Seymour had no interest in my band really hurt.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:11:42Billy Corgan?

  When it was some dumb record guy.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  He should have. He should have.

• 1:11:46Billy Corgan?

  You think we wouldn't want to sign to Sire?

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:48Billy Corgan?

  I mean, talk about uh, uh, inheriting the, the, the blessing of Seymour.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:54Billy Corgan?

  He was the record guy who said, no, this, this artist is different and, and he got artists played.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Pretenders. I mean, so many, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So I just assumed that this is a band that he's sending me. I said, what's their name? And he said Madonna.

• 1:12:13Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  And I said, oh.

• 1:12:15Billy Corgan?

  Terrible name from.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  I don't know if I could relate to a band called Madonna. You know, I don't, I don't know. This is. I didn't, I took the meeting because of my friendship with Seymour. And in walks this dynamic blonde, you know, with the, I can't even describe in words how she sucked all the oxygen out of the room and completely controlled my office space. Um, she wore, you know, these big hoop earrings, zillion bracelets. All her clothes were held together by safety pins. And um, she was so unique and, and so powerful. And, you know,

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  it, it was an amazing attraction in every which way. And um, and then she left with the guy who brought her, Michael Rosenblatt. And um,

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  we had a lovely meeting, but we were flirting. We didn't really talk business. And Michael Rosenblatt said, she loves you and refuses to meet anyone else. I said, you're kidding. I said, we didn't even talk business. Um, bring her back. So she says, are you going to sign me? I said, well, I, I'd like to get to know you for a minute. And I'd like to see you work. Are you going to work somewhere soon? Yeah, I want to be a dancer to Ria in two weeks or something. Um, would you come in and see me? Yeah, I will. I said, and until then, I'll act as your manager. So if you have any problems, you know, have them call me and I'll deal with it.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  Um, and she had like one pressing problem. I don't remember what it was. I said, I'll make a phone call right now and I'll get rid of this problem, which I did. So she was kind of, it was fairly fundamental, but it bothered her badly and I, I took it away. So, um.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Every day she called with a new problem. Every single day. Um, she was in New York, this is this, okay? And I, and finally she had like 10 problems every day. How could one person have these many problems?

• 1:14:27Billy Corgan?

  Shades of things to come.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  I don't know, but I do.

• 1:14:31Billy Corgan?

  Did you see the ambition in her early?

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Unbelievable. There's energy. It was like regular, you, you had to crack the second. A, a whole industry would be formed. Um, so I went to Danceateria and saw them and I loved what I saw.

• 1:14:49Billy Corgan?

  Well, okay, cause I wish I was in that room with you at that moment. What, what, what did you see that you thought, okay, this is a star? Because let's remember you just were working with the number one star.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:15:03Billy Corgan?

  In the world. So you're, you're, you're, you have, and you're a promo guy.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So give me your Freddie in the back row, like, what did you get? What did you see?

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  Well, it wasn't until Danceateria that I was for sure certain that she was going to be a star.

• 1:15:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  Um, and I, I will tell you. My own ambitions that I always wanted to sign an artist that I thought could sell out arenas or stadiums. I didn't want, you know, the bitter end or, you know.

• 1:15:39Billy Corgan?

  You didn't want to be that type of manager.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  I wanted to be a big guy and, and that was the way to do it. And so that's how I judged by what I saw. I might like you, but no, you're not going to be. And there's a few artists that fit in that category. But, um, there was a din, din, dynamism about her that you just knew it. And, and that sound in her voice was amazing. The songs were good. I thought very good. She wrote a couple, but others wrote.

• 1:16:11Billy Corgan?

  Had the first record come out at that point?

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  No, but it was cut.

• 1:16:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  So the record that was on the radio a lot was, uh, everybody come on and dance with me. Everybody. I said, oh, I've heard that on the black stations because that's who I listened to. Yeah, yeah. She says, do you like it? I said, no.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  I'm afraid I don't like it.

• 1:16:40Billy Corgan?

  I remember that song now, how you're singing it. Yeah, no, it just came back to me.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  And I think that made her like me more because I had an opinion and I wasn't afraid to say it. I was honest. I had integrity.

• 1:16:55Billy Corgan?

  And Alpha's looking for an Alpha.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, um, anyway, I signed her. It all was good. I told her that she had to lose those dancers behind her. What? But it's my brother. I said, I don't care. They're not adding anything to you. In fact, they're taking away from you. And then when we talked about the cover,

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  I mean, these are funny little stories. She showed me, this is going to be my cover. I said, what is that? It's an abstract drawing or a picture. She says, oh, my brother, it's an abstract painting. I said, what else you have? She showed me this photo shoot that she did where she has that thing around her neck and all that. And so many wonderful shots. It was unreal. I said, here is your cover. She said, but my brother will be upset. I said, Madonna, forget about that. It's your career and your life. You have, this is the cover. And that was the beginning of the, of the direction. So I think

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  my contribution to Madonna was steering the ship of, of something that has a tendency to get out of control. And you have to anticipate all of the bad things that could happen and get rid of them before they become.

• 1:18:20Billy Corgan?

  Was it, was it akin to her personality? There was just a lot of energy going a lot of different directions?

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  We, we hit it off. We, there was just a, I don't want to say mutual love, but there was mutual admiration.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  Couple of people said, you're a father figure to her.

• 1:18:36Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  I don't care, whatever. I could be the grandfather. I'm, you know, it works. It's something that fits.

• 1:18:44Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 1:18:46Billy Corgan?

  See if this jives with you. I mean, I know Madonna a little bit. I think what surprised me, and I, I got to know her in the nineties when, you know, like, you know, all these things that you're talking about at this moment in your life are happening. So at that point, she's an institution. I mean, she's one of the biggest stars in the world. But what surprised me is she's kind of almost kind of like a sweet hippie quality to her.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Billy Corgan?

  That you don't see that with the ambition.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:11Billy Corgan?

  Gene up front, you know, center stage, you know, I'm Madonna and all that stuff. Like the real Madonna, at least the one that I met seemed more like a, like a, somebody who would have been in Laurel Canyon or something. Does that resonate with your, your experience?

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  I never saw it that way.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  To be honest, I never saw Laurel Canyon.

• 1:19:31Billy Corgan?

  Maybe she was acting for me. All right, here's, here's a good question because I thought to ask it because you would know. All right, ready? Who's more ambitious, Michael Jackson or Madonna?

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a great question. You could get an Academy Award for that question. Um, I would have to put them on an equal thing.

• 1:19:48Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Both are fiercely, fiercely ambitious.

• 1:19:52Billy Corgan?

  Well, there's reason they're the top male and female artists in their field, right? Yeah, I mean, I, I witnessed the Madonna ambition up close a little bit, very, very brief period of my life, but, but it is, it's, it's intense.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  And, and I've always believed that as a manager, you can't make the artist. The artist has to make themselves and you, you guide it in a, in a loving way and in a firm way. As you can see by these examples that I just gave you, but, but if you have to pull the artist, hey, you know, we gotta do this and that. Well, I have to, I have to go see this.

• 1:20:31Billy Corgan?

  No, that's why they gotta be crazy.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:32Billy Corgan?

  They gotta have that crazy.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  Artist have to be crazy, yes.

• 1:20:35Billy Corgan?

  Um, also around this time, you were managing Billy Idol, who I was lucky enough to interview recently. Um, and I, I get, I, uh, if you want to say anything about Billy, uh, uh, before we jump in, because I have a particular point I want to make about Billy, but how was your experience managing Billy? Because he was also red hot at that time.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:20:55Billy Corgan?

  And I think what's cool about Billy, and sorry to be all over the place, but I think his legacy has endured. You know me.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Well, he's worked very well, long since I'm gone. I don't get any of that credit for making himself enduring. He has a very good manager and they worked on that career quite well and keeping him on the forefront. And he's changed and.

• 1:21:24Billy Corgan?

  You were around for some of the wild years.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:21:29Billy Corgan?

  So I'll leave that there. But the question I was after was, because you have a unique perspective to it. You know, would Madonna, you know, this is not the question. In my own mind, would Madonna and Billy Idol been a star in any era? And I think the answer is yes.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:21:48Billy Corgan?

  But given their types of voices, the kind of, the way they approached music with fashion and image. They're very much particular to the rise of MTV and that media.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:22:02Billy Corgan?

  They were like the perfect people for the perfect.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  Because Billy.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Billy was gorgeous.

• 1:22:09Billy Corgan?

  He. He's still gorgeous.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, the camera loves him.

• 1:22:13Billy Corgan?

  Because I guess what I'm after, because I love my old music and you promoted some of the great artists in the 60s. You know, artists like Madonna and Billy Idol may not have survived in those times, given at times, the way they sang or the way their voices. Does that make sense, the way I'm phrasing? I don't mean it as something against them because they're great artists. But it's like, you know, they're not Frank Sinatra or, you know.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:42Billy Corgan?

  Dinah Shore or something, you know what I mean? Where you have to be able to step up to a live microphone and make it work with an orchestra and you got, you know, two hours. You know, they're very much, they're very much artists of their time.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Well, they were commanding when you.

• 1:22:58Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  When they took the stage.

• 1:22:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so I guess.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  But so Sinatra in a way different way.

• 1:23:04Billy Corgan?

  But and I don't mean this as a slight because I just think it's interesting because every time brings forward a different thing. Because in my era, we had also a different thing. But I guess what I'm trying to say is.

• 1:23:16Billy Corgan?

  Did, did, did. Did the rise of television and the visual image in a way that had never been before, other than maybe people like Sinatra in movies, did that create a different dynamic of who got through the gate as a star? In essence, did charisma in many ways become more important than musical capability or something?

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Yes, but you always did that song.

• 1:23:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there's no, there's no getting around that. Okay.

• 1:23:46Billy Corgan?

  Are you a, as a manager, are you a give the people what they want type of person? Or are you like, are you willing to think the artist sort of knows best?

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  I never want to give the people what they want.

• 1:23:59Billy Corgan?

  Tell me how.

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  I think.

• 1:24:01Billy Corgan?

  Maybe you should have managed me because that's my philosophy.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  I probably should have, yeah, believe me.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  I always think the artist knows best inherently, although there have been times that they don't.

• 1:24:13Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  That they're self-destructive. And Billy might fall into that, you know, when you're talking about Billy in those days.

• 1:24:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  But the artist does know best and I think you have to,

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  I was gonna say shove it down the throats of the public.

• 1:24:34Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  I don't mean to be that.

• 1:24:36Billy Corgan?

  Is it, is it more like a youth, I guess, is, am I, if I'm reading you correctly, is it more of a conviction, it's like a thing of conviction?

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Because the artist may be crazy, but he knows, she knows, they know.

• 1:24:50Billy Corgan?

  You know, in the 90s, you formed Maverick, label with Madonna. And I thought to ask it in this way, because obviously Maverick's gone on to be successful as a label, but, but also, you know, here comes an unexpected turn in the music business, which was the rise of alternative music. You know, on the surface, kind of like what I'm saying, technology, MTV, now you have a whole new group of artists who aren't really voiced for, for pop. You know, Nirvana is a perfect example. I mean, it was, it was popular and it was certainly massive, but I mean, it's not like he was trying to. Be, you know, what would be the cookie cutter version of the artist of the 50s, 60s,

• 1:25:33Billy Corgan?

  70s or 80s. This was the rise of a sort of new type of anarchy. Cause even the Stones and the Beatles, like the Beatles started in suits. There's Mick Jagger in the turtleneck. I mean, you're talking about artists who are coming out of the world stage in an anarchic way. And yes, there'd been artists like the Sex Pistols and things, but this was a different thing. So I just thought it was interesting. Maverick, Maverick's foundation also seemed to coincide at the time with alternative. And obviously Maverick had Atlantis Morissette, one of the biggest records of all time. Certainly I think was considered at the time an alternative artist, maybe

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:06Billy Corgan?

  Less so now because she's had such an enduring

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:09Billy Corgan?

  Career. But you understand what I'm after there. It's like, did that, did the, did the, did the rise of alternative music sort of surprise you? Or because you knew Seymour and Sire, you thought it was something, it was just, it was going to happen eventually.

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  So are you asking, you know, how I saw the music in those, in those 90s?

• 1:26:29Billy Corgan?

  I'm often reminded, Sinatra still gets a little bit of stick for criticizing the Beatles in the beginning. Right? It's seen as a kind of a generational thing. There's Frank going, I don't get it.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was, he was, yeah.

• 1:26:41Billy Corgan?

  And then 10 years later, he's covering Beatles songs.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:44Billy Corgan?

  Right? The reason I bring that up is, you know, as a kid, when I heard that stuff, I thought, well, that looks poorly on Sinatra. How could you not understand the Beatles? The Beatles were a phenomenon. But if you're Frank Sinatra in 1960 and you're singing the great American songbook, you're singing Gershwin and Cole Porter. Of course you wouldn't understand the Beatles because that's like, what kind of music is this? It would sound like noise if that's what the world that you grew up in. And I'm not saying you're not that sophisticated. I'm saying is, did, did, did the rise of alternative music and that sort of different kind of anarchic thing coming into the charts so forcefully? Did that strike you as odd? Or, or did you see it just as a natural progression?

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  Well, I think the term counterculture comes up.

• 1:27:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Because you're always, I always wanted to be involved with counterculture.

• 1:27:32Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  I didn't want to follow the crowd ever. And I certainly didn't want artists that followed the crowd. I wanted. The left field, the bizarre ones, you know, I wouldn't call Michael and Madonna bizarre.

• 1:27:46Billy Corgan?

  But they're, but they're certainly one of one.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  But they were, right. That's unique. Um, no following the crowd. And, um, so in terms of now, this new type of music,

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  again, it's song related. It's also, um, I mean, Alanis is that album is like ranks as one of the greatest albums ever, because there's great songs that no, who, who would ever say, you know, went down on you in a theater? You know?

• 1:28:21Billy Corgan?

  Not me.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  And put that on record, you know, but it worked.

• 1:28:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  And there was melodies and there were lyrics that would, you, you, did she say, what did she say? You know, it drew you in.

• 1:28:33Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:28:35Billy Corgan?

  Um, the reason I kind of went down this road because I, I, I feel like I don't want to give Madonna a short trip. She's worthy of, I mean, we could just talk about her for two hours, but I thought it was interesting that there was even a moment in the nineties where Madonna had a sort of deal with alternative as an artist.

• 1:28:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:52Billy Corgan?

  And she made, she made, I think Ray of Light was a record that comes, I would, a record I really liked. That was when I actually became a Madonna fan.

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:28:59Billy Corgan?

  I always kind of liked Madonna, you know, it was like, everybody I knew kind of liked Madonna, but it wasn't like my style of music.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:05Billy Corgan?

  You know, holiday or whatever, you know, it's like good songs, stuff you hear in a club, but it wasn't for me. When I heard Ray of Light, I thought, wow, there's this other layer of this artist that I didn't know existed.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was made after my time.

• 1:29:18Billy Corgan?

  Right. But I'm, I guess what I'm trying to say is I, I'm making a self-serving point, which is I think it's interesting that even an artist as big as Madonna in the nineties, at some point had to sort of figure out that the, that the music landscape had shifted.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:29:31Billy Corgan?

  And the language of the music had shifted.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:33Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:34Billy Corgan?

  Um, again, it's a self-serving point, so.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  But, but you know, it should be known like, uh, Guy O'Seary found Candlebox.

• 1:29:42Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  And that was our first signing. And, um, and I went up to Seattle and met with them and saw them and there was something there. And they had recorded their album and it was, there were two songs that were blockbusters.

• 1:29:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  And, uh,

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  We wound up going, releasing the singles of their demos that they made.

• 1:30:10Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Cause they rerecorded, they went back in the studio and rerecorded everything. And they never found that certain something that makes a hit, a hit. And it's hard to define, but it's, it's something there that.

• 1:30:30Billy Corgan?

  Did, did you make that call?

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was my call.

• 1:30:32Billy Corgan?

  That's a pretty gutsy call to me.

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37Billy Corgan?

  Especially if it's like you're trying to establish the label.

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that, and it worked because they were big hits and, and the band could perform on stage. And, you know, they had everything, but it, I don't think the candle box would have sold two million albums going with their newly recorded song. I don't think they would have had a hit.

• 1:30:58Billy Corgan?

  Because we were talking about songs and, and how you always have to decide the songs. And I, I, I did want to touch on it because Lionel Richie, of course, you guys worked together, but one of the great songwriters of all time.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:10Billy Corgan?

  If you don't mind talking about Lionel just as a songwriter, because I, I also don't want to give him short shrift, but you know, we only have so much time, but can you just talk about him as a songwriter? Because he really is going to go down as one of the greats.

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  He, he is one of the greats and, and, uh,

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  by the way, the best hang, if you want to hang out with an artist, hang out with Lionel.

• 1:31:32Billy Corgan?

  I, I'm managed by the same, uh, managers as Lionel, Bruce Escobitz. And I've never met Lionel to that, but I hear Lionel's stories all the time.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  Bruce is wonderful, by the way.

• 1:31:42Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. Thank you. I'm, I'm blessed to have Bruce as a.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's great. Um,

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  first of all, he, the great songs that he wrote were written not under my jurisdiction, if you will. It was, uh, Ken, uh,

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  I'm blanking on his name, but I wasn't managing him during those great, great days. But they're, as a fan, and as a guy who loves music, those songs are monstrously gorgeous and lush and the arrangements. And I met his, his guy and the deep, the amount of detail that went into the record making. It's wonderful, you know?

• 1:32:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  It's such a wonderful art form that we are blessed to be in.

• 1:32:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  Um, because little things mean a lot, you know?

• 1:32:32Billy Corgan?

  Is there, is there a, because you work with such top, top tier artists, Shakira included, like, is there something that you find as a common thread with the, with the artists? These, these, because I, I've known my whole life, I'm a weirdo. Like, it's not a surprise to me that I didn't appeal to everybody. I'm, in fact, I often tell people, sometimes I'm lucky because I appealed to more people than I probably should have. That's more of a blessing of talent or, or capability, but it's not because of who I am. I'm too really weird for the mainstream. So to be a top tier artist, you have to really appeal to people across the board. Obviously you have to have talent too, but there's, there's a sort of, people tend to, tend to agree that they like the artist, right? I mean, that's just, there's

• 1:33:14Billy Corgan?

  a common language that the artist speaks for people. So what have you seen with some of these great artists that you worked with? Is there, is there a common thread?

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  Well, to me, it's all about songs. So first-

• 1:33:24Billy Corgan?

  So you're always a radio guy. You're never gonna stop being a promoter.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  I, I guess. But for example, um, she may not like to hear that I'm saying this, but it's the truth with Shakira. Um, so we're making her first English album and, um, I was in Los Angeles and she was in Miami and, uh, I know she's in the studio and I said, Shaki, you gotta send me some music. I gotta hear what you're doing. Yes, I will. Yes, I will. You know, three days later, Shaki, you gotta, you gotta send me some, I don't know what you're doing. I have to hear it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doesn't come. I jump on an airplane to Miami and confront her at the studio. I have to hear the music. I have

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  to see what you're doing. I, I can't, I can't go in the dark. Um, and she leaves the room and I'm left with the engineer who plays me. And I was up here and with each song, I got lower and lower and lower. I asked to myself, this is a disaster. This is, this doesn't work. And then she came out and asked the inevitable question, what do you think?

• 1:34:40Billy Corgan?

  Did you tell the truth?

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  This is one time that you don't want that question, don't you? And I said, Shakky, I don't know how to say this to you, but it's not good. And she like gets in that wonderful Latina indignity. What do you mean? Uh, as well, it's, it doesn't, I, I can't describe the music. It's not Latin, it's not pop, it's not alternative, it's not R and B, it's not, you picked anything. Who's gonna play this? The promotion man coming out again, she says, everybody. I said, no, Shakira, nobody, nobody will play this in this present form.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Not, and she runs out of the room crying hysterically and locks herself in the bathroom and doesn't come out. And I'm sitting there and sitting there and sitting there for maybe an hour and a half. I say to the guys, well, I guess I'm fired. And um, I'm gonna take the next plane back to LA. And that's what happened. I didn't get fired. But um, we didn't talk for like four days, which to me, if you don't talk to your artist, like every other day would be the longest I would go. And but things are piling up, people are calling me, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. She is Shakira, after all, she is a star.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  And uh, I had to call her, Shakky, you know, this is going on, this is going on, you have to, I need answers on this. She says, Freddie, you were right and I was wrong about the album, which I salute her. She says, I'm gonna recut that entire thing. And the result was Laundry Service with those amazing songs. So there is an example of

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Maybe it's the promotion man ear. You know a hit when you hear it.

• 1:36:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:33Speaker 01

  And I didn't hear the hit and we couldn't put it out.

• 1:36:36Billy Corgan?

  It's hard to to be an artist sometimes and know the difference. And and so I what I tell some of my fans sometimes is, I'm the same guy who wrote the song you like and the song you don't like.

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:36:47Billy Corgan?

  But I wrote them both because I believe in them. And of course, it's easy to say, oh, I knew this one was going to be hit. But you're not always right. There are songs that I thought were absolute can't miss winners and they were bombs by by record company estimations, right? So sometimes it's hard to know who to listen to.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. But isn't this, I heard the story and I'm sure it's true. John Lennon, when he was out of the Beatles, he he was, he wrote a couple of songs and I don't know what friend he called to listen. And they listened to this song and I don't know the name of that song. And the guy obviously wasn't blown away. He says, what's the other song? What would be your B side? He says, well, I don't know. I have this little thing called Imagine All The People. And and it was the the most blown out anthem.

• 1:37:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  It became an anthem for the world.

• 1:37:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  What a song. It just, wow. But that was going to be a B side.

• 1:37:49Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that story. Okay, we're almost done. Thank you for your time today.

• 1:37:55Billy Corgan?

  I'm curious that you end up.

• 1:37:58Billy Corgan?

  You know, this is my own story, so tell me if I'm wrong, but the idea that you end up producing on Broadway. It's a beautiful full circle kind of thing that you'd be back in your town. You know?

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  Well, that's the only thing I the only part of the showbiz that I hadn't dealt with.

• 1:38:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  And um, I wanted to. I I don't know. I was pulled by it. I was living now on, well, I wasn't living on the East Coast. I'm still on the West Coast. But I wanted, I just wanted to do it. You know, in the middle of all this, I did that movie, The Life and Death of Peter Sellers.

• 1:38:36Billy Corgan?

  Which was critically acclaimed and.

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  And I won eight Emmys and two Golden Globes and, you know, although they rarely played it, which really pissed me off. But it was great, you know, beautifully done. Wonderful performance, great direction, great story, et cetera, et cetera. But theater, I'd never done. And I had a concept. And my concept was, I was gonna do, open the show, the curtain rises, and there's two big buses on stage. One says Detroit, and one says Indianapolis. On one bus is Madonna, and the other bus is Michael Jackson. And somehow, they meet at the Port of the Party in New York,

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  and become friends. And I was gonna combine their music, but I needed a through line. I didn't have a story. What's your story? Yeah. Some reason, I sought out a lawyer. Why would anyone go to a lawyer? But that was me. And I told him, he said, "Well, that's a great idea." My wife is a writer. Wrong thing to say. No disrespect, but I don't want your wife writing the book to this. I said, "Listen, John, this is gonna take years to put together. I'm a music guy. Instant gratification is not quick enough." Yeah. "I need something now.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  Don't you have something I could be involved in?" Yeah. There's a, one of my clients is looking for a partner. Now, it turns out, her client, his client, was a daughter of a billionaire, and didn't need my money. And she had the rights to, she says, "But you'll have to read the script first." I said, "Well, of course, I'm gonna read the script." And he sends it to me, and at like, the end of the first half, I was, I literally gasped. And it was so, wow, what a reveal. And I called, I have to be in, I have to do it.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  He says, "Well, you know, you can't get credit on, on the, because it's, they've already printed the things, and you can't get, and you can't get an award if it wins." I said, "Jesus, that's why one would do it. Broadway, what else is there?

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  I'll do it anyway."

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  And that was Proof by, uh, uh, oh, I blanked out his name. Anyway, it won not only the Tony Award, but the author won a Pulitzer.

• 1:41:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  So again, it's taste level and that was the first. And then the woman came back to me, her name is Carol Shortstein Hayes. She's a wonderful woman from San Francisco and, um, and it was top dog, underdog. And there's about two black brothers that are like card sharks in New York, you know? They, I don't know what games are played.

• 1:41:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  And the police always come and they scatter in three seconds. And it was brilliantly written, I mean brilliantly written. But I said to Carol, nobody should come see this. Nobody, you think all these Park Avenue debutantes give a shit about.

• 1:42:05Billy Corgan?

  Especially the bridge and tunnel crap.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. About these two guys and it, however, the writing is insanely great.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  Well, Freddie, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it. So we did it. Um, it was top dog, underdog.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  And I was right, nobody came until she won the Pulitzer Prize for writing, Susan Laurie Parks. And then people came and it wasn't a.

• 1:42:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  Big hit, but.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  I don't know. Then the next one was a Tony Award winner called Take Me Out.

• 1:42:40Billy Corgan?

  Where you just have the, the golden touch.

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  I, I don't know, I like to think that I do because I love the business so much.

• 1:42:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  I love, I eat it, you know? And in my documentary, I talked to Lionel. He said, Freddie, I don't know how you, how you, you know, you're still here, how you're still standing. I said, because. I never wanted to sleep. I always, I love the action so much that it has never worked to me. And now I don't have that much to do and I'm going crazy. I'm bored. It's just, you know, it's part of my insanity.

• 1:43:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay, last question. This could become the kind of parlor question of the day. So the red meat is the topic of AI and its effects on the entertainment business. So you take that however you want. I find everybody has a different take on what's happening. Cause I, the analogy I make is I feel like AI is like a storm. You can see the cloud coming.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:43:37Billy Corgan?

  It's kind of, oh, it's started raining already.

• 1:43:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:39Billy Corgan?

  But like the real storms.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:41Billy Corgan?

  So what's your take?

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  Well, I, I, I will plead ignorance about it.

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  Because I'm not very good with computers and all that. Um, I'm still in the dark ages in that regard. And so AI, I'm not a, an expert or a devotee, but I saw your proto friend, David, doing that. That's the most insanely genius thing I've ever seen.

• 1:44:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:06Speaker 01

  Um, so I know it's coming. And the fact that

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  there's William Shatner able to talk to me about things that how would he know that? How would this not real person, but real person?

• 1:44:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  How would he know what I've done, you know? And yet there it is. And it, it's insanely genius. So, um, yes, your description about it's starting to rain already is very appropriate.

• 1:44:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I, I, I was talking to some of my fans the other day online and I was saying, you know, it may sound strange to people, but I think we will see very soon, and let's take a deceased status like Michael Jackson. I think very soon you'll, there will be a great temptation to not only create an AI version of Michael Jackson, but basically in a, a, an estate endorsed version where you can converse with them like, like you and I are just sitting here talking.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  Right. It's, it's, it's scary. It's so amazing.

• 1:45:12Billy Corgan?

  I think it's almost impossible for us to ponder, but I think what's crazy is we're there. We're there now.

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. We're in its infancy, but we're there and it's coming. The storm is coming.

• 1:45:23Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:45:23Speaker 01

  It's well put.

• 1:45:24Billy Corgan?

  All right. Thank you, Freddie. Great talking.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  Thank you.