Tim Ferriss: 4 Science-Backed Tools That Rewired Decades of Childhood Trauma & Depression

Health Hacker TIM FERRISS reveals how to naturally calm anxiety, lower stress, balance your nervous system, and boost mental health - without medication. Tim Ferriss is an entrepreneur, investor, lifestyle guru, and host of The Tim Ferriss Show. He is also the author of 5 #1 New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestselling books, such as: ‘The 4-Hour Work Week: Escape the 9-5, Live Anywhere and Join the New Rich’. He explains: ◼️Why stimulating the vagus nerve may hold the key to anxiety relief ◼️How HRV became the #1 biomarker he tracks, and how to improve it fast ◼️His go-to 5-day reset protocol for nervous system healing ◼️What most people get wrong about managing stress, and how to fix it today ◼️The #1 diet mistake that could be fueling your anxiety [00:00] Intro [02:45] My Mission: Simplify Complex Ideas [03:36] Framework for Fast Learning [08:00] Choosing the Right Projects [10:21] Importance of Small Steps for Big Results [12:46] Why Humans Need Purpose [15:45] Tim’s Sexual Abuse Story [25:48] How People Deal With Trauma [31:58] Practical Steps to Prevent Suicide [35:49] Humans Aren’t Programmed to Be Alone [39:18] Accelerated TMS for Depression and Anxiety [42:45] Metabolic Psychiatry [44:08] Psychedelic Treatments for Mental Health [45:38] Vagus Nerve Stimulation [50:11] Ads [53:22] The Future of Health: What’s Coming Next? [57:21] What’s Guiding You Today? [59:30] Dating Apps and the Paradox of Choice [1:02:49] How Would You Spend Your Last Day on Earth? Follow Tim: Instagram - https://bit.ly/49gqgRc TikTok - https://bit.ly/4oHX0ro X - https://bit.ly/4qW09oI You can purchase Tim’s new COYOTE card game, here: https://amzn.to/489NdnV You can purchase Tim’s book, ‘The 4-Hour Work Week’, here: https://amzn.to/3LysDoy Read Tim’s deeply personal reflections on suicide, here: https://bit.ly/4i1NnRS If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out for help. You’re not alone. 📞 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline (US) 📞116 123 Samaritans (UK) The Diary Of A CEO: ◼️Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/ ◼️Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook ◼️The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt ◼️The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition): https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb ◼️Get email updates - https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt ◼️Follow Steven - https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: SimpliSafe - https://simplisafe.com/DOAC to save 60% on a SimpliSafe home security system. Bon Charge - http://boncharge.com/diary?rfsn=8189247.228c0cb with code DIARY for 25-30% off Apple: https://www.apple.com/mac/ The Conversation Cards: Game Edition- Limited edition available now - https://bit.ly/cc3-ar

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Every mental health complication or diagnosis is increasing. And I've worked with different scientists and done a lot of experimentation on myself, having grown up with multiple depressive episodes every year to see if there are root causes that we can address. And so I'll just throw out a few things that have been very, very helpful. First, there's brain stimulation. When I did this, I had months of no anxiety. Then there's something called vagus nerve stimulation. And one of the most heavily cited scientists of the last 30 years has seen a wild collection of benefits.

• 0:29Steven Bartlett?

  So let's talk about that.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  Tim Ferriss has become a performance hacking expert after speaking with over 800 influential voices on his podcast.

• 0:37Speaker 03

  Now he's taking the most valuable frameworks and techniques to help you

• 0:41Steven Bartlett?

  optimize productivity, health, and performance. Tim, the variety of things that you write about, talk about, is so wide. So what is the question that most people should ask you?

• 0:52Speaker 00

  How do you break down complicated subjects and accelerate your ability to learn? Because time is one of our most valuable non-renewable resources. And so I have a framework that you can apply to any subject matter, which consists of the 80/20 principle, which is picking the 20% to focus on that will give you 80% of what you want. For instance, there's hundreds of thousands of words you could learn in Spanish, but with the most frequently used 1,500, you can get to reasonable conversational fluency in almost any language in eight to 12 weeks. And if you figure that out, you're ahead of 99.9% of the world.

• 1:24Steven Bartlett?

  And what do you think is the question most people want to ask you?

• 1:27Speaker 00

  So there's a lot of questions around mental health. And I feel like I have a moral obligation to help people because I was sexually abused by a babysitter's son on a weekly basis. I was this close to killing myself. And it can have a lot of effects, but these are things that you can slowly chip away at. And instead of feeling like you're held captive by them, feel like you can take the pain and make it part of your medicine. So.

• 2:01Steven Bartlett?

  Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about the show. Thank you.

• 2:45Steven Bartlett?

  Tim, you're a remarkably interesting individual in part because the variety of things that you write about, talk about, clearly have deep curiosity in, is so wide that you're hard to put into any particular box. So my first question to you is how do you think about the work you do? And how do you sort of like self define, if you do at all, who you are and what your mission is?

• 3:11Speaker 00

  I think of myself as a self experimenter slash student and teacher in that order. The purpose, though, ultimately is to try to find simplicity through complexity or topics that can be complicated and then provide some type of recipe or algorithm that people can test with low risk and hopefully a decent amount of upside.

• 3:36Steven Bartlett?

  We're going to talk about a lot of different things today. So probably a good place to start, which is learning how to learn. And especially in a world that's changing at such speed, there's a lot of people that are being forced into relearning of some sort, whether it's professionally or in other domains. So meta learning, I've never heard this term before. How, what is meta learning and how do I learn how to learn better? I would love to because I spend so long, as you do, speaking to really interesting people. I sometimes worry that some of that information's being wasted.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. The basic idea is this, that rather than treat different.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  Subjects or fields as these silos that need to be figured out independently. How can you develop just a broad framework that you can apply to any subject matter? And the acronym that I generally recommend folks, DSSS. Deconstruction, selection, sequencing, stakes. There's deconstruction, which is taking a fairly ambiguous goal like learn to swim or learn Japanese. None of those are actually very descriptive, right? So deconstructing any one of those is taking, let's just use learn to swim as an example, and breaking it down into constituent parts.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  And you can, you can do that very effectively with the help of an expert. You can try to do it yourself, but for instance, I mean, if you want to find a silver medalist from the Olympics two Olympics ago, you can probably get on a Zoom call with them for a hundred dollars an hour, maybe fifty dollars an hour. You do have access to world-class talent. Then they would help you figure out, all right, there are all these different possible components. When you get to the next part, which is selection, you're picking the 20%, this is the 80/20 principle, right? Pareto's Law. So you're picking the 20% that will give you 80% of what you want. Let's just use language learning in that case.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Well, you can very easily find word frequency lists. So for any given language like Spanish, sure, or in English, hundreds of thousands of words you could learn, but with the most frequently used 1,500, you can get to reasonable conversational fluency in almost any language in eight to 12 weeks, without question, if you approach it methodically. But you need the right material first. And then the next S is sequencing, putting it in the right order. And I feel like this is the magic sauce that gets lost a lot, which is what is a logical sequence for learning any given skill? What do you practice first? So in the case of swimming, for instance, forget about breathing.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  Like you need to figure out like fuselage right, fuselage left, and gliding, kicking off a wall in the shallow end of a pool, before you ever think about breathing. And getting comfortable putting your head underwater, et cetera, et cetera. So there's the deconstruction, selection, sequencing, and then the last S stands for stakes, which means incentives. So how do you ensure that you will do actually what it is you say you're committing to doing? If more information were the answer, we'd all be billionaires with six-pack abs. So information is clearly not sufficient. It's necessary, but not sufficient. Incentives drive behavior change. So you need good intentions are not enough. Even a system is not enough. You need strong incentives.

• 7:00Speaker 00

  So you could give 500 bucks to a friend or 100 bucks, whatever. The amount doesn't really matter. And if you don't do what you say you're gonna do, they donate it to like your most hated political candidate in your name. Right? That's another one that I've seen work really well. That's it. That D S S S, deconstruction, selection, sequencing, stakes. And if you just check those boxes moving in that order, your ability to learn will hockey-stick in a really meaningful way. And what's also important to realize when you're trying to tackle any new skill, doesn't matter what it is, there will, it will not be just a linear climb from bottom left to upper right.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  But if you know in advance that those are coming, then you can have a plan for it and weather the storm. So that's also very important. If people expect some kind of like linear incremental progress, it just ain't gonna happen. And so most people quit before they hit any real inflection points.

• 8:00Steven Bartlett?

  And how does one know what to pursue? Like, how do you decide what's worth pursuing? Is there a framework for knowing what should be on the Sunday shelf and what should be today, today's work?

• 8:09Speaker 00

  I do think about this a lot. And I've used this for a very, very long time. And I don't see it changing anytime soon. I've refined it here and there. Almost everything I do is a six to 12-month project. With lots of two to four week experiments within that six to 12 months. I do not have, and I've never had, a long-term career plan, five years, 10 years. If you have a reliable five to 10-year plan, you're going to be playing so safely within the bounds of your capabilities that I feel like you're selling yourself short. So for me, it's projects and just going 100% into those projects. But how do you pick the project? I pick the projects based on relationships and skills.

• 8:49Speaker 00

  So new relationships or deepening important relationships and my learning curve, skills I'm going to learn. And there's a condition, though. Those relationships and those skills have to be able to transcend that project. I'll give you an example. If I have a project which is working on a startup as an advisor, that startup was StumbleUpon. Okay, so I'm working on StumbleUpon. Way back in the day, StumbleUpon was a huge deal. It delivered a lot of web traffic to various websites. It's kind of like a Pandora for websites. The year two into that, didn't go anywhere. But who was it I spent all my time with at StumbleUpon? It was the founder named Garrett Kemp. And I became really close friends. I learned a ton about web traffic.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  I was also able to use my own website and blog as an experimental destination, right? So there was upside even if it went to zero for me. And a few years later, I get a text from Garrett. We meet up to talk about this new idea, which is solving the taxi problem in San Francisco. And then shortly thereafter, it was called Uber Cab LLC. And I became advised by that. And I could give you 12 more examples like that, where like the first project failed, but I became friends with person A or B, learned C and D, and those were applied two projects later to something that was a home run.

• 10:07Steven Bartlett?

  And should everybody at every stage in their journey have the same framework? Or, you know, because if you think about the different things one could acquire from like resources, reputation, knowledge, skills, network. If I'm 18 and broke, should I be aiming at the same things as if I'm Tim Ferriss?

• 10:27Speaker 00

  My instinct is to say yes. And the reason I say that is that Lady Fortune has a lot to say about what happens. There are so many things outside of your control that whatever game you choose to play...

• 10:43Speaker 00

  Requires a system that allows you to survive a string of very bad luck. Everything snowballs over time and compounds, and it's really hard to lose long term as long as you are not over indexing and betting too much on any one project, say financially. It's like you need to be able to withstand as a team or as an individual, a period of very bad luck in order for the law of big numbers and statistics to work in your favor with a system that gives you a slight edge. So that's just my lens on the world in general, at least professional choices. And I would say, you mentioned a couple of other things, right?

• 11:27Speaker 00

  It's like reputation and so on. I feel like a lot of those are second order effects. They happen automatically if you're optimizing for the relationships and skills. So this comes back to the sequencing, right? So it's like, which is the lead domino? So if you have 12 dominos, you kind of have to decide in which order you're going to stack them. So that you knock over the small domino, notch over the bigger domino, then the bigger, then the bigger, then the bigger. And over time, if you're thinking about doing two projects a year, let's just say if they're six months each, that's going to add up. It's going to add up. So you can afford to be long-term greedy instead of short-term greedy.

• 12:11Steven Bartlett?

  Is that what people call passion? Are you using the same?

• 12:15Speaker 00

  I like energy over passion for a couple of reasons, because you could have passion between the bed sheets, you could have the passion of the Christ, you had a different type of passion. I don't like imprecise terms. Energy for me, very simple. It's like, are you more awake or are you sleepy? Do you feel like you can do this for another five hours? Do you feel like you want to stop in 15 minutes? These are almost biological questions, like biological state questions. So it's pretty intuitive for people to get to a yes or no.

• 12:46Steven Bartlett?

  One of the subjects I've been thinking a lot about recently, why have I been thinking about this more recently? Hmm, don't know. Just a series of conversations I've had on the show, which make, have kind of pushed me closer to trying to answer this question, is about About meaning and purpose and I guess religion. Because actually, it's only in recent history that we've had so many answers to some of these bloody questions like the solar eclipse, we now know what's going on there. It's not God testing us so that the Vikings are throwing their spears at it. We know what it is now. So not believing atheism, agnosticism, is that a fairly new construct? And are we not meant to know so much?

• 13:27Speaker 00

  I think that humans need certainty. They need something to believe. And if your belief is that non-belief is the way, well, guess what? I mean, that's a belief.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  So I would say that my experience is if you want to experience self-transcendence, which I think is critical for mental health, you don't need religion per se.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  What you you can have, I think, a very wonderful life without religion. I don't think it's possible to have a wonderful life without awe and wonder. And those are things you can architect. Those are things you can very much architect and engineer and schedule in your life. Why have veganism and CrossFit done so well? They're religions.

• 14:23Speaker 00

  I mean, effectively, they may not have a God per se. But certainly, they have thought leaders, the Glassman before his fall from grace and so on, various athletes and so on. But it's like clear roles, community, self-enforcing.

• 14:42Steven Bartlett?

  Describing life sports.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it's like this is religion. Just goes by another name. It's a lot of the behaviors, collective behaviors and tenets of religion, just lacking the R word.

• 14:55Steven Bartlett?

  What do you worship?

• 14:57Speaker 00

  I knew that was coming.

• 14:59Speaker 00

  I think the risk for me is that I feel like I have a moral obligation to help people, which can turn into a bit of a savior complex because of a lot of the pain that I've suffered in the past.

• 15:13Speaker 00

  I feel like I am not necessarily uniquely suited, but I have the experience and the perspective that allows me to be credible when talking to people who are experiencing certain types of pain. And that can become a huge, unhelpful, self-imposed burden, where I feel a moral obligation to do things at the expense of my own mental health or physical health. So I would say that's something that I have very clearly on my radar as of a few years ago.

• 15:44Steven Bartlett?

  When did the first domino fall in that regard?

• 15:47Speaker 00

  In terms of, you mean, just general challenges personally? Well, I was, I might as well dig into it. So I was sexually abused by a babysitter's son from two to four on a weekly basis, I would say. Very clear memories of all of it. And that will shape you. I mean, that will definitely shape you. And it can have a lot of effects. It can rob you of agency. It can certainly make you or contribute to me being hyper vigilant. I'm very slow to trust. And so on and so forth, right?

• 16:30Speaker 00

  Like, that is a formative experience at a formative time. And then later, I had, I think, number one, a genetic predisposition, if you just look at my family, two, major depressive disorder. And that showed up as, let's call it, on average, starting in early adolescence, like, three to four multi-week or multi-month depressive episodes per year. That is...

• 17:02Speaker 00

  Half of your lived time. And for people who may have experienced something like this, I will say that there are tools that work. So now, never thought it would be possible. But I would say now I have one depressive episode of a few weeks at most every two to three years. Now, the juxtaposition between those two people is hard to overstate. Those are two fundamentally different experiences of being a human. And a lot of it ties back to some of the levers I was talking about. Right? Metabolic psychiatry, psychedelic assisted therapy, bioelectric medicine, including accelerated TMS.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Like, these things for certain people really work and can be durable. They're not one and done. Very few things are. But these are things that you can slowly chip away at and become familiar with. And instead of feeling like you're held captive by them, feel like you can mold the experience into something that is at least not disabling. Sometimes you can make it enabling. I remember a very good psychotherapist said to me, maybe five years ago, six years ago, "Take the pain and make it part of your medicine."

• 18:30Speaker 00

  And it was basically like, "All that stuff is horrible. Nothing can excuse it. Take that pain and make it part of what you offer the world." And there was, I would say, the combination of that statement and also COVID, during which my girlfriend at the time, because she knew about my history. Very few, at that time, there were maybe two people in the world who knew about it. Two long-term ex-girlfriends I'd been with for like five to six years each. Parents didn't know? Parents didn't know. Only, really? Yeah. And I was sitting with her during COVID, just as it was getting fully ramped. And...

• 19:14Speaker 00

  I'd always planned on writing a book about it, or like my healing journey after my parents passed away, because I didn't want them to blame themselves. And my girlfriend at the time, over a meal, said something that had a huge impact, which was, have you ever thought about how many people are going to pass away from natural causes, or from COVID, or anything else, before you ever have a chance to write this book? Because you're probably not going to write that book for 10, 15 years. Think of all the people you could have helped that you didn't help. And I was like, okay, maybe I should workshop it on a podcast, but keep in mind, none of my family knew. And so I was very fortunate to have a very close friend who's based here in New York City, Debbie Millman, Design Matters Podcast,

• 19:59Speaker 00

  one of the longest running podcasts in the world, wonderful human. And she disclosed to me, a number of years back, for the first time in full fidelity, extended childhood sexual abuse. And we talked about it. And I came clean with her after that conversation with my girlfriend. And I asked her if she would be open to having a conversation with me that we could record, but as a conversation. Because I knew I couldn't do it as a monologue. I just knew I couldn't do it. And I told her in advance, I said, I have no idea if I'm ever going to share this, but I feel compelled to at least record it. And so we did.

• 20:41Speaker 00

  And ended up publishing that, I want to say in September 2020, something like that. And holy shit. I would say, the most shocking thing about that to me, I knew the statistics, right? But statistics are very impersonal. Like, these types of abuse, this type of sexual abuse is incredibly prevalent. Not just involving young girls, but also involving a lot of young boys. I probably had a quarter to a third of my close, close friends reach out to me for the first time to talk to anyone and confess that they had had some type of similar experience. I mean, the percentages were staggering.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  That was really hard. I was willing to absorb it. I have a lot of capacity for absorbing that type of thing, but it was hard because I would get these tearful voice memos from guys who'd never told anyone, giving me graphic details of everything that happened. It's just gut-wrenching. I remember walking up and down my driveway, just like tears running down my face. And like, I don't cry much. It's not really a thing for me. But just the brutality of it. And then, in retrospect, seeing so many things coalesce where I'm like, oh, that explains all of these unanswered questions I had about that friend. And also for me, looking back, again, hindsight being 2020, for a long time I had, let's

• 22:13Speaker 00

  just call it, to pick a number out of thin air, it's like, okay, I have seven mental health psycho-emotional challenges I need to address. And I was viewing them as independent problems to address. But when I was willing to reopen the door and look at the childhood abuse, everything was tied to that. And sometimes you just have to, you know, put on your gas mask and go into the cellar and contend with that. And there's no one right way to do it. Psychiatry is still in the dark ages. It's where surgery was 300 years ago. But still, there are certain things that work, often without knowing the mechanism, seem to help a lot of people. So there are tools.

• 22:56Speaker 00

  I think internal family systems, created by Dick Schwartz, is very interesting. The MDMA assisted psychotherapy, certainly for PTSD, very interesting and generally well tolerated, not right for everybody. And then, a number of the other things that I mentioned, family constellation therapy, also quite helpful for a lot of people. But it's not insurmountable.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  What I would not say is that some people, and I think that I would love to be able to do this, but I just can't get there, or who would say like, I don't regret it. I'm glad it happened because here's the silver lining. No, like if I could Ctrl Z and remove that stuff, 100% I would. And it did a lot of damage. But it gives me a credible voice when I am talking to people who have had these experiences, and that is valuable.

• 23:50Steven Bartlett?

  Can you explain to me what you've learned about how you were two years old at the time?

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:54Steven Bartlett?

  Between the age of two and four, you said. What is, I'm kind of asking about the mechanism here. What is happening in a two to four year old child's brain that causes the damage? Because presumably at two years old, you don't understand what's happening. You don't understand what this individual, this person who's older than you is doing and the context of it.

• 24:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:18Steven Bartlett?

  So I'm trying to understand how, what the mechanism of harm is to an innocent child who doesn't understand, understand the context of what's going on here.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't think anyone can really answer that particularly well with high conviction. But what I'll say is that I am blessed and cursed with a near photographic memory for some things. So you have the original injury, right, the original insult. But if you have, as I do, which is weird, but like I can draw the floor plan of almost any building, any restaurant I've ever been in.

• 24:59Steven Bartlett?

  That's crazy.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  Even once, I don't know why that is, but I can do that. Now, there are upsides to that. There are a lot of downsides too, in the case of abuse. And as you have greater and greater ability to navigate the world and realize what has happened, what is happening, what might happen, and you can recontextualize high fidelity memories, well, then you realize that that thing that was very weird at the time was a lot more than just weird, right? It was just straight exploitation and abuse. So.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  That's the best answer I think I can give to that question.

• 25:48Steven Bartlett?

  It's similar to what Dr. Lisa Feldman told me. She was a neuroscientist who said, she told me this story. It's obviously an anecdote, so it's an N of one. So obviously take it with caution. But she told me the story of a young woman who was abused by her uncle and lived a normal life. Everything was fine, slept well, then watched Oprah. Oprah had on there an array of women that were abused when they were younger. And she recontextualized what happened to her. And from that day onwards, she had all the symptoms of someone who was abused. She was had sleep disruption, health disruption, all these things. Because she had suddenly, as you use that term, reconceptualized actually what had happened there.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:30Steven Bartlett?

  This made me, you know.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, look, I think people who have been abused are those who survive and do well afterwards in some way are become very good by force, by necessity at compartmentalizing. And if you look at some of the very, very top tier military,

• 27:01Speaker 00

  special forces units and so on, the percentages of those guys who have been abused, very high. Now, why would that be an asset? Well, if you're in battle, if you're in a chaotic environment where people are dying or at risk of dying,

• 27:18Speaker 00

  and you need to act effectively and calmly in the most disruptive, unpredictable environment imaginable, compartmentalizing is a superpower, right? Where you can basically detach and take this observer status, almost as if you're watching yourself doing, you know, kill and capture raids or whatever it might be.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  But when some of those folks come back to civilian life, the compartmentalization is a severe handicap and disruptor in family life. Right? So that superpower becomes a super weakness. And I think that that is true outside of the military for people who survive abuse. They may bury it completely, put it under lock and key subconsciously. So they don't even have explicit recall of the event. Until perhaps there's some triggering catalyst that brings it back up. They might just say, hey, look, that happened. It's terrible. Like, no need to dwell on the past. I want to move forward, which I think frankly is a viable strategy.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  I don't think everyone needs to go, you know, put on their hazmat suit and unearth everything bad that has ever happened to them. I don't think that is automatically productive or helpful. Can make people really despondent because you can't fix the past. Right? So I would say that in my case, that compartmentalization was on some levels, very enabling, right? Like, I could outlast, out endure a lot of people in sports and work. My pain tolerance was incredibly high. But there's a, there is a price to be paid when you cauterize

• 29:14Speaker 00

  certain aspects of yourself and disallow certain types of emotions. Like, there are prices to be paid. And I will say that I think the potential and promises of psychedelics, by and large, are overstated. But in terms of bringing emotions back online, that was almost entirely due to psychedelic experiences for me.

• 29:39Steven Bartlett?

  Bringing emotions back online?

• 29:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I hadn't cried in like 20 years. Couldn't remember the last time I cried. And then I'd be like on a plane, watching a really compelling, kind of heart wrenching documentary and just start crying on the plane. I'm like, what the fuck is going on here? What the fuck? And certain emotions just came back online. And I think that once those were online, that is in part what then pulled along with it. This revisiting of these high fidelity memories. And then.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  I had a very rough period because of that and ultimately decided, you know what? Like, this is the lead domino that has already been tipped over, that has affected so many things. I can continue to do patchwork, like remediation with Band-Aid solutions for various things, but I'm just, I'm plugging holes in the side of the boat, not asking why it's filling with water in the first place. And I just decided, you know what? I'm just gonna take six months. And I know psychiatry is pretty messy, but priority number one is to try to find some resolution with this. And that's what I did. I canceled everything because I was having basically like a nervous breakdown and wasn't sure

• 30:57Speaker 00

  I would be able to sort of function in a business capacity anyway. So, yeah, quite the adventure, quite the misadventure. But, you know, if you play your hand the best you can. So, having a podcast, having the books, having a blog, has actually been incredibly therapeutic for me in finding some way to extract value from those experiences. And let me just mention this because I don't make anything from it. If people are going through any experience like this, or if they've had a history of trauma, you can just go

• 31:39Speaker 00

  to tim.blog/trauma and it's got the conversation with Debbie. It's a hard conversation, but it also has a list of resources. Because what I used as a toolkit and what Debbie used are completely different. So, you get two very different perspectives on things. And I would say if I had to pick one other blog post in this case that I am, was the hardest to put out, and also that I think I'm proudest of, it would be some practical thoughts on suicide. There's a post called Some Practical Thoughts on Suicide. And I know that has, I know directly that has saved a few hundred lives. And it, it details my

• 32:22Speaker 00

  personal experience of almost killing myself in college, coming very close. Like, I had a date on the calendar. And the only reason it didn't happen is because I lucked out. This is luck. So, at the time...

• 32:36Speaker 00

  I was taking a year off of college to work in a few different jobs and ended up being very isolated because my whole class was graduating, my roommates at the time had full-time jobs, so I was just kind of stuck at home working on my senior thesis. Not a good recipe for mental health. And I reserved a book from the Princeton University Library about assisted suicide. And the book was out, popular book it would seem. And back in the day, the way the system worked is they would mail you a physical postcard to your address that was at the registrar's office. I had not updated my address to my

• 33:21Speaker 00

  off-campus apartment. So the card that said, "Good news, your book on assisted suicide has arrived at Firestone Library," got mailed to my parents. And that's what snapped me out of it, was realizing, oh, this isn't just about me. Right? Now I don't have the plausible deniability, I was gonna make it look like an accident. It's like, now I don't have it. That's been taken away. Retrospect, thank God. And so it didn't happen. But the reason I wrote that post is because I was at an event, I was actually being interviewed by Jason Calcanis onstage at this live This Week in Startups event, a few hundred people in the audience, and stuck around afterwards, and a bunch of people came up and wanted

• 34:03Speaker 00

  books signed and things like that. And there was one really nice guy, well-dressed, had himself put together, who asked me to sign two books, one for himself, and then he asked me to sign a book for his brother. And I said, "What would you like me to say to your brother?" And he just kind of froze. And I was like, huh, okay, well, I don't want this guy to feel stressed out. I was like, "I'll tell you what, we can figure it out, or you can just leave it to me. There's no rush. Like, we can do this after the event." All right, so I took care of everybody else. And then the guy walked me to the elevator, and he explained, he said, "Yeah, sorry about that. I froze because my brother committed suicide." And we kept his room exactly how it was. And he was a huge fan of your writing. And so I wanted to get a book signed by you and put it in his room.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  And he said, have you ever thought about talking about mental health? Because you could really help a lot of people. A lot of people listen to you. And unbeknownst to him, I had all the history with coming this close to killing myself. And I sat with that and I was like, yeah, he's right. He's really right. I have a responsibility to write about it. And that blog post took me at least a month to write and rewrite and rewrite and have proofread, consider deleting. And because that was also something that my family didn't know about. I mean, they knew about the book, but they didn't, they didn't realize how close it was.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  So that was also another wonderful call with family to be like, so there's this thing about to come out. Should probably give you a heads up so you don't hear about it from everybody in the extended family. But

• 35:48Steven Bartlett?

  Will your parents receive that, that thing in the post?

• 35:52Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 35:52Steven Bartlett?

  That slip, the library slip?

• 35:53Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 35:54Steven Bartlett?

  Did they call you?

• 35:55Speaker 00

  My mom called me with this very shaky voice, being like, what is, what is, what is this? Why did you reserve this book? And I lied, you know, I said, oh, well, I have a friend at Rutgers and he was trying to get this book for a research project and they didn't have it at their library. So he asked me to get one from through Firestone. But I was just lying, but I knew the jig was up, right? And that was, that was the turnaround point. And that was also, because this was in 1999 where I just decided to go 100% into physical training. And there's a lot of backstory behind it. People can read about it if they want on that post, some practical thoughts about suicide. But this is not, it is so fucking common.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  It's very disturbing, like when you realize, it's disturbing and reassuring. It's disturbing because you realize how prevalent it is and how close so many people have come. It's reassuring because you realize also very quickly that you're not alone. You're not uniquely flawed. This doesn't need to be personal and permanent. People have solved for this. Looking at my audience over the last 10 years, every mental health complication or diagnosis that I can think of is up and to the right, just hockey stick.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  So chronic anxiety, treatment-resistant depression, you name it, right? Obesity, loneliness, which can take many different forms, usually self-imposed. And when I see a constellation of issues like that, I try to identify, if I can, not just the symptoms, because then you end up putting Band-Aids on things that are interrelated, but treating them as silos, but looking underneath it to see if there are root causes that we can address. So let me speak to that first. So on the mental health side, I'll just throw out a few things that have been very, very helpful.

• 38:03Speaker 00

  There are the behavioral questions, and I would agree that at its simplest level, you can just look at what we're evolved for, right? Just take a close look at evolutionary biology. Independence, lone wolf, is not in our programming. It just is not. So I would say, when in doubt, revert on some level to what people were doing a few hundred years ago, at the most recent, right? And that would be sort of assumption number one. Then I would say, to people who are suffering right now...

• 38:43Speaker 00

  The social interaction, analog human interaction, I would just say, is the one target when hit that solves a multitude of other problems that otherwise you'll be playing whack-a-mole with. But if there are then remaining problems with, say, chronic anxiety, OCD, when we get into some slightly trickier terrain, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder, et cetera, there are a few things that I have found in the course of doing a lot of work with different scientists and also a lot of experimentation on myself, having

• 39:26Speaker 00

  grown up with multiple, long-duration depressive episodes every year. And those are a short list of different types of brain stimulation, specifically something called accelerated TMS. The before and afters that I've seen with that are beyond incredible and equal or surpass in some cases the amplitude of effect and the durability of effect of psychedelic-assisted therapies. Accelerated TMS, so transcranial magnetic stimulation. And Nolan Williams, Dr. Nolan Williams at Stanford is a good person to look up for more on that.

• 40:03Steven Bartlett?

  What exactly is that? Is that putting something in your head and...

• 40:06Speaker 00

  There are different ways to do it, depending on the hardware that you're using. But in effect, accelerated TMS refers to a new protocol with better hardware and software of a technology, TMS, that has existed probably for 40 years, if not more on some level. And you will, instead of doing two or three sessions a week for many months, you do 10 sessions a day for five days straight. So you are getting stimulated on the hour, every hour, for about eight minutes, and you do that for 10 hours straight. And then you compound that over five days.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  And you see, for instance, to give one example, a friend's child, very terrifying story, but he was...

• 41:03Speaker 00

  A cutter, this fourteen year old.

• 41:06Steven Bartlett?

  Self harming.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Yep, and the parents were just waiting for the call that their child had committed suicide. And this went on for two or three years, I want to say. And then within three days of accelerated TMS treatment, it was like reversion back to old self. And then with boosters every, say, three to six months, that has been durable. It's the before and after is impossible to overstate. It's pretty wild.

• 41:36Steven Bartlett?

  What are they doing to the brain? Is it electrodes or is it music?

• 41:39Speaker 00

  It's magnets. It's magnets.

• 41:41Steven Bartlett?

  Magnets.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  Yep, and what it feels like is someone kind of like flicking the side of your head. It's sort of the sensation. It is, from a safety profile perspective, really compelling. Like, the downside risk is very, very minimal. And me, with the most recent sessions that I've done myself, I had probably four to five months of no anxiety. Like, all of that stuff vanished as if by magic wand. And I felt like I'd been meditating twice a day for a year. I mean, it was incomprehensible. It was really, really, really remarkable. And there's good clinical evidence for this. It's not just N of one anecdote.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  So that's one, is the kind of neurostim piece. And there's a lot more that's going to happen in that space. But bioelectric medicine, that would be one big lever that I think is worth investigating if people are suffering with any number of different conditions. Then you have metabolic psychiatry. Primarily, that would be dietary intervention. Chris Palmer at Harvard is someone who's popularized this in the last handful of years. Metabolic psychiatry, specifically putting people on a ketogenic diet. You have folks who have been treated with fifteen different medications for schizophrenia for a decade, who get off all of their medications within three to six months. And stay off, simply by...

• 43:09Speaker 00

  Stabilizing a handful of things in the brain, including adding a very beautiful, clean energy source, which is ketones. There are also a lot of possible applications of the ketogenic diet or modified ketogenic diets, exogenous ketones, meaning supplemental ketones, for neurodegenerative disease. So I have three relatives right now who have Alzheimer's. And genetically, I'm very predisposed. So I'm thinking a lot about this also from a preventative perspective. So can I potentially bolster mitochondrial health, cellular cleanup, reduction of plaque

• 43:50Speaker 00

  buildup, et cetera, by doing strict ketosis for a month a year, fasting for a week, perhaps, once a year, water only? I think there's actually pretty compelling evidence that those are all worthwhile interventions to consider, if you're very highly predisposed, as I am. And then I would say the last one I'll mention now, the psychedelic-assisted therapies for various conditions. I do think that psychedelics, and this is to quote a very famous psychotherapist named Stanislav Grof, Stan Grof, "What the telescope did for astronomy, what the microscope did for biology, psychedelics will do for the mind." I don't think that's an overstatement, because a lot of the clinical outcomes that we're

• 44:32Speaker 00

  seeing with treatment-resistant PTSD, people who've had an average diagnosis duration of like 14 to 17 years, nothing succeeded. They do two to three sessions, and then you see like a 50-plus percent complete remission of PTSD. Well, what is going on there? I think in a very productive way, leading us to question some of the very fundamental assumptions that are made in the world of psychiatry, particularly with pharmaceutical interactions or pharmaceutical prescriptions. And that's really exciting to me, because I think there is an argument to be made that you can address certain root causes. And there are different explanations for this. Ghul Dolan, who's now at UC Berkeley, she was at Johns Hopkins, talks about the reopening

• 45:17Speaker 00

  of critical periods for development. So you could potentially use psychedelics for stroke patients who are trying to relearn motor control. So I would say that those are broadly kind of the three pillars. There's one other that I'm...

• 45:35Speaker 00

  Digging into that I think could end up being very, very interesting overall. This is one that is sort of TBD personally. I am experimenting with it, but vagus nerve stimulation. There is a sea of bullshit floating around related to vagus nerve stimulation. The vast majority of what you'll bump into is pseudoscientific nonsense.

• 45:53Steven Bartlett?

  So if I'd never heard about vagus nerve stimulation before, how would you?

• 45:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can explain it. All right, so the vagus nerve is a bit of a misnomer because there are actually two bundles of nerves that travel down from around your brain stem down either side of the neck, kind of where you would feel your pulse. It's right alongside the carotid artery. And you can think of them as almost transatlantic cables. So you don't have, you have two primary vagus nerves, but there are about 100,000 fibers in each of them. And we only know what a tiny fraction of those do. They then travel down and they innervate and touch pretty much everything you can imagine, including your gut.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  And there's some very interesting communication between the gut microbiome and the brain vis a vis the vagus nerve. It's wild. And the most credible voice that I've found in the world of vagus nerve stimulation, or VNS for short, science is a guy named Dr. Brian Tracy, T R A C E Y. He wrote a book called The Great Nerve, which is a very good introductory read on all this. One of the most heavily cited scientists of the last 30 years. He's incredibly credible. And he co-founded a company, I want to say at least 10 years ago or 11 years ago. It was involved at least as a, as a primary scientific advisor for an implant.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  The implant is about the size of a omega-3 fish oil capsule, gets implanted right in the neck, so surgical procedure, but pretty minor. And that has just been approved. It was the cover of the New York Times, this was a few weeks ago, for rheumatoid arthritis. And the before and after that you see in some of these conditions, again, is something straight out of science fiction. You see someone who's been mostly bedridden, chronic fatigue, can't hold a job, struggling to interact with their kids, has this procedure, and then like two weeks later, they're running up a flight of stairs to catch a train on a trip to Europe. And have the problem of too much energy. It seems to have broad potential application to autoimmune conditions.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  So you might think of, say, a Crohn's disease or IBS. It seems to have applications to significantly enhancing HRV, heart rate variability. So I have a friend who, for the longest time, he's former tier one operator, military. He's got a lot of sympathetic overdrive, so he had trouble sleeping. And he tried all sorts of sophisticated breathing programs, which can help. He tried cold exposure, which can help. But those were all incremental gains on his HRV, maybe improved 10 to 15%. Lots of meditation, twice a day, 10 to 15%. Used vagus nerve stimulation for somewhere between two and four weeks, tripled his HRV.

• 48:50Steven Bartlett?

  What?

• 48:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, tripled.

• 48:52Steven Bartlett?

  How did he stimulate his vagus nerve?

• 48:55Speaker 00

  This is where we get into some controversial territory. All right, so the device he used is, it is a device, it's called Gamma Core. It's by prescription. It is applied to the neck. It provides electrical stimulation for two minutes at a time, I believe. It's very, very minimal. Two minutes twice a day, I want to say, maybe it's five minutes twice a day. And that seems to have just a downstream collection of benefits or potential benefits. Most of the research for Gamma Core is for, I believe, migraines and/or cluster headaches

• 49:39Speaker 00

  in terms of published literature. Or option B, which has a lot more in terms of published studies, would be auricular, so ear stimulation. And that's stimulating something called the simba koncha right here. It's a very particular location. And so you apply stimulation to the ear. I'm experimenting with both the ear and also the neck. I would say vagus nerve stimulation has top of mind access right now for me in terms of interest.

• 50:12Steven Bartlett?

  I bought this Bon Charge face mask, this light panel for my girlfriend for Christmas. And this was my first introduction into Bon Charge. And since then, I've used their products so often. So when they asked if they could sponsor the show, it was my absolute privilege. If you're not familiar with red light therapy, it works by using near infrared light to target your skin and body non-invasively. And it reduces wrinkles, scars and blemishes, and boosts collagen production. So your skin looks firmer. It also helps your body to recover faster. My favorite products are the red light therapy mask, which is what I have here in front of me, and also the infrared sauna blanket. And because I like them so much, I've asked Bon Charge to create a bundle for my audience, including the mask, the sauna blanket. And they've agreed to do exactly that. And you can get 30% off this bundle

• 50:56Steven Bartlett?

  or 25% off everything else sitewide when you go to boncharge.com/diary and use code DAILY at checkout. All products ship super fast. They come with a one-year warranty and you can return or exchange them if you need to. And I'll tell you what, it scares the hell out of me when I look over in the office late at night and one of my team members is sat at their desk using this product. I asked my assistant Sophie to find me a reliable security system for my new place in LA. What she discovered is that most available options have the same issue. They're reactive and only take action after someone has broken into your house. Simply Safe, who sponsors this show, has a completely different approach. If someone's lurking near your home or office, their AI-powered cameras detect them, then human agents who act like a remote security guard take action, speaking directly to the intruder,

• 51:40Steven Bartlett?

  letting them know they're being watched on camera, and if necessary, triggering a siren or spotlight to scare them off. Or they can call 911 for police dispatch. This immediate response is why I went with Simply Safe. No one else approaches security in the same way. But they have no long-term contracts or hidden fees, so you can cancel at any time. They also have a 60-day money-back guarantee. Right now, my audience can save 60% on a Simply Safe home security system at simplisafe.com/DOAC. That's simplisafe.com/DOAC. To save 60% on a Simply Safe home security system. There's no safe like Simply Safe. Before the Diary of a CEO was what it is today, it was just an idea.

• 52:22Steven Bartlett?

  And it started with me, a cheap plug-in microphone and my Mac right here. And I have to say, when I first had the idea for the Diary of a CEO, my thinking was that the world might want to see into the diaries of some of the most interesting, successful people, really in high places, that were doing interesting things. So after recording that first episode under my duvet, I sat on my Mac, which is from our sponsor, Apple, and spent hours editing and eventually uploaded it. And honestly, I thought that would probably be it. But a couple of my friends said they enjoyed it, so I kept on recording. And over time, the microphone has changed and we now have this incredible setup here. But the thing that has stayed the same is I'm still using the Mac. Even today, my entire team across our studio still uses the Mac. Our first few episodes maybe had tens of people listening,

• 53:07Steven Bartlett?

  but now tens of millions of people tune in all over the world, which is still absolutely crazy to me. So if there is an idea that keeps tapping you on the shoulder, this is your sign to start. Your great ideas start on Mac. And you can find out more at apple.com/mac. Because of what you do and because of the way that you are in terms of your broad curiosity and the way that you think and the way that you learn, I have to ask you the question. What is it that you see coming down the pipe? Like coming down the line in terms of macro trends? It probably makes sense for us to just stick with health for a second. But you've talked about Vegas. Is there anything else that you think 10 years from now, everybody's going to be doing, but they're not currently doing? Or thinking about? One of them I'll throw out there is something I've been thinking about is air quality.

• 53:52Steven Bartlett?

  I think I see a rise in people's concern about CO2 levels and also outside air quality. So I imagine I'll be wearing some kind of device and my iPhone will be telling me about the air quality in the room or outside.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me. I think bioelectric medicine is a big category. So whether it's accelerated TMS or focused ultrasound, where you might take something that looks like a hockey puck and put it over your liver, for instance, or...

• 54:20Speaker 00

  Spleen to affect various things. Using microchips over pills, I think, is going to be a huge growth area. And that we'll realize more and more how much is dependent on the immune reflex and different types of communication mediated by electricity that can be affected by external or internal devices like an implant. So, for instance, I'll give you a wild factoid, which is, people may have heard the story, which is based on real science, where you transplant the microbiome from, say, obese

• 55:01Speaker 00

  mice into lean mice, and those lean mice then become obese, just by transplanting the gut microbiome. If you sever the vagus nerve before you do the transplant, that doesn't happen. They don't become obese. So what's happening there? It would seem that the microbiome is communicating with the brain vis-à-vis the vagus nerve. And when you sever something experimentally in that way, or bladed, or whatever, oftentimes, this might seem paradoxical, but you can achieve similar effects with stimulation that you can with severing.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  And I think many of the assumptions that we have currently, which form the bedrock of our "understanding of mental illness and so on," are just going to be completely false. They're going to be completely untenable within 10 years. A lot of that, I think, is going to be driven by a better understanding of the body electric. It will be driven by better understanding of...

• 56:10Speaker 00

  How fuel utilization in the brain drives many different psychiatric conditions that can be mitigated or completely addressed by, say, providing an alternate fuel source instead of glucose ketones. Right? That'd be just kind of a simple example. But there's a huge, huge compliance issue with the ketogenic diet. People don't want to do it for a lot of good reasons. So how do you get people to stick with it? Well, maybe there are other options for achieving heterogenic-like effects, such as systemic anti-inflammation, with the use of electricity instead of diet. Right? I think that's possible. And I've invested in a few companies that are aiming to do that,

• 56:54Speaker 00

  which is very exciting because it means that you might have options for affecting brain function that do not require you to take molecules that get into your brain directly. That's really exciting. So bioelectric medicine, I think, is going to be a very exciting space to watch. And there are a lot of researchers doing some wild stuff with bioelectric medicine. So we'll see where it goes.

• 57:21Steven Bartlett?

  Where are you today in terms of your, what's guiding you at the moment in this season of your life? Do you, what are your big goals? Are you aspiring towards anything in particular?

• 57:30Speaker 00

  It's relationships. It's looking forward to the next big chapter for me, which would almost certainly, not almost, certainly be partner, family, all of that. I mean, another startup's not going to make any difference to my life. You know, another podcast. I love all of those things. I love startups. I love the podcast. I love the books. But we're at the squeezing out of marginal gains at this point.

• 58:01Steven Bartlett?

  Are you married? You're married or?

• 58:02Speaker 00

  I'm not married. Don't have any kids that I'm aware of. But dating a lovely woman right now. Very excited about it.

• 58:11Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think it's quite strange that a lot of podcasters don't seem to be like, I'm not married.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:14Steven Bartlett?

  And I don't have any kids yet.

• 58:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:16Steven Bartlett?

  I've just turned 33. But so many of the big podcasters don't seem to have kids or be married, other than really Rogan.

• 58:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:23Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. Someone tweeted about it the other day. And I was like, oh, fuck.

• 58:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, look, I think that I'm not pointing fingers at you, but I know quite a few of these guys, if we're talking about guys. Yeah. I mean, I know a bunch of female podcasters as well, quite a few of which are married. But on the male side, I will say, you know, if you're a good-looking guy and you're putting videos on YouTube, your DM inbound and your plethora of temptation that you need to resist is going to make remaining single very attractive. And that's true for a lot of these guys. So I don't think there's a mystery to be solved. In other words, it's like if they go on the dating apps, it's just like shooting fish in a barrel.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  And I don't think ultimately that the dating apps, despite what they might say, are designed to be deleted. I do not believe that. They're casinos intended to keep you in the casino. Yeah. Just follow the money. Follow the subscription plans. Well, you talk about the paradox of choice. Yeah. And so there are times, and I think this is probably misplaced envy, where I'm like, you know, maybe there is something to arranged marriages. You know? And this whole idea of like soulmate, romantic love driving everything is a relatively new invention on the scale of human history.

• 59:53Speaker 00

  Now, would I want someone deciding who I marry and have kids with? Not particularly. But there is a certain simplicity to it that I find enviable when you end up in the modern digital casinos of dating apps, where, yes, that person was an eight out of 10, but man, that nine or 10 is just right around the corner. I know it's just a few thousand swipes away. And you get the variable reward, at least if you're like a healthy, sexually vigorous male.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  I'm sure for women as well. I just think that men tend to think with their smaller head a lot more often. You're going to get these incredible dopamine hits of variable reward. It's like dog training, but you're training yourself with a dating app to continue using the dating app by getting these Scooby snacks in terms of, you know, fill in the blank with your imagination. I don't meet, I have not met a single person who is like, I love dating apps.

• 1:00:57Steven Bartlett?

  No one.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  I have not met a single person. And yet, right? What does the crack addict want? More crack. And they might say, I just need one more hit. That's not how it works. So there is, I think, a lot to be said for applying positive constraints.

• 1:01:14Steven Bartlett?

  I'm scared to be single again. I just, the way I look at the current mechanism of finding someone, these dating apps, and I just think, and also, I do understand it would be a significant distraction from whatever I'm doing here.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:01:27Steven Bartlett?

  Can you imagine me being in New York City tonight, single, and like, and having the evening off? And what would go through my head? And then you'd have to go on a date with someone, you've got to do all the small talk stuff. I got out the game before the game like began.

• 1:01:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Steven Bartlett?

  Like seven years ago.

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  I saw this tweet from this, I think it was a Vietnamese woman who said, you know, I wonder if, it wasn't Gen X, it was like, I wonder if X, Y, and Z people of this generation are looking at dating apps and thinking, wow, we got the last chopper out of Nam.

• 1:02:00Steven Bartlett?

  Literally, literally.

• 1:02:02Speaker 00

  And

• 1:02:03Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  That's not far from the truth. Paradoxical choice is a real problem. People think it's a quality problem of abundance. I'm not convinced that that's true.

• 1:02:13Steven Bartlett?

  No way. It's not possible. I have so many, my friends that struggle with dating the most, date the most.

• 1:02:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:02:21Steven Bartlett?

  I've got two or three friends that I can think of, I won't name them, but two of them are women and one of them's a guy. They do 50, between 50 and 100 dates a year.

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Steven Bartlett?

  And they're just convinced that it's through lack of, lack of option. And I just, it's impossible. But, you know.

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm very happy to be off of the dating apps. I was on the dating apps for two or three years. I was just. It is a part-time slash full-time job.

• 1:02:47Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And you're, you know, the person who wrote your question sat there, I kid you not, for 30 minutes in total silence, thinking about these

• 1:03:03Steven Bartlett?

  eight words.

• 1:03:03Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 1:03:04Steven Bartlett?

  They sat there for, I've never seen anything like it.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  All right.

• 1:03:07Steven Bartlett?

  And the eight words that they wrote.

• 1:03:09Speaker 00

  Oh, man.

• 1:03:10Steven Bartlett?

  I know. That's nine words.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  What is your favorite color today?

• 1:03:15Steven Bartlett?

  Can you imagine? Yeah.

• 1:03:18Steven Bartlett?

  What's your favorite sandwich? No, I'm joking. How would you spend your final day on Earth?

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  With my closest friends and family, no doubt. It wouldn't be pizza. It wouldn't be, I mean, maybe it involves pizza, but it would be telling the people I love that I love them and spending time with them. It doesn't need to be anything fancy. It could be sitting on a porch on a rocking chair. And that might seem like a trite answer, but I am putting that into practice every year with periods of time that are blocked out for this. So I'm not waiting until my last day, but last day certainly wouldn't be dating apps. Wouldn't be an opium bender. It would be, it would be time with my absolute closest friends and family. And

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  I'll add elaboration on the past year review when I'm looking at relationships. Before investing in new relationships, I look at my top, say, five to 10 relationships and ask myself, did I spend the amount of time I would want to spend with these people last year? And if the answer is no, I always reinvest in those people and only the overflow gets allocated to new relationships. I really focus on the tried and true proven relationships with deep levels of trust over long periods of time.

• 1:04:41Steven Bartlett?

  In terms of systems, you've put, have you put a system in place to make sure that life doesn't get in the way of those people coming together?

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, for 25 plus years, I've had a

• 1:04:54Speaker 00

  Annual reunion around my birthday every year in the summer where all of my or those who can make it, but incredibly old friends show up. They know it's on the calendar. It's roughly the same date every year and they fly in from all over the country, all over the world. And it has nothing to do with my birthday. It's just a reunion of friends.

• 1:05:15Steven Bartlett?

  Tim, thank you. Thank you for several reasons. I think the first reason is you're one of the, I said to you before, one of the founding fathers of what we do here. And if it wasn't for people like yourself and Joe, there is a zero percent chance, I think, that people like me would be doing what we do now. And that's given us so much. There's really, really like a very extremely low chance that if people like you hadn't taken the risk and created a blueprint and shown that it was like an effective medium and the long form was interesting and everything that you, you guys proved, there's no chance that people like me would exist. And so I, whenever I meet people like you that I, I consider to, to be standing on the shoulders of or have stolen a blueprint on, I feel like I am obliged to say thank you.

• 1:05:57Speaker 00

  Thanks for saying that.

• 1:05:58Steven Bartlett?

  But it's true, it's true.

• 1:05:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I was inspired also by people who preceded me, right? When I did the launch for the Four Hour Chef in 2012 with going on Joe Rogan and Marc Maron and Nerdist and so on, like those guys also showed me that something interesting was afoot. So you're 33, you said?

• 1:06:16Steven Bartlett?

  Thirty-three.

• 1:06:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, you got a lot of runway, man. You're in a good position.

• 1:06:19Steven Bartlett?

  We'll see, we'll see what happens.

• 1:06:21Speaker 00

  I'll add one last thing that I neglected to mention earlier, but in terms of productivity and we're talking about weekly architecture, I think everyone should put as a challenge for themselves, particularly if they're an entrepreneur, a four-week mini-retirement once a year where you are unavailable. You are off the grid. No laptop, no phone outside of maybe Uber and Google Maps and OpenTable, where you are literally completely unavailable. And the reason I recommend that, there are a few. Number one, it's gonna Allow you to play the long game at high intensity,

• 1:07:03Speaker 00

  having that deloading phase. The second is, it will force you to improve all of your policies, rules, guidelines for autonomous decision-making by employees, et cetera, et cetera. It will force you to clarify all of that on a regular basis. So when you come back, all of those systems improvements will endure beyond the mini-retirement, but it's a forcing function. It also forces you to take a very close look at the non-business interests that you have either maintained or cultivated or let atrophy in complete disuse. And if you end up having a slight panic attack because you don't know what to do with your

• 1:07:45Speaker 00

  time, that's a great wake-up call. You need some other things to offset the type A maniacal focus on chasing that rabbit around the greyhound track.

• 1:07:56Steven Bartlett?

  Amen. Thank you, Tim.

• 1:08:00Speaker 00

  Thanks, man.

• 1:08:01Speaker 04

  Thank you so much.

• 1:08:03Steven Bartlett?

  If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the world we're living in today. And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards. Because on this show, when I sit here with my guests and have those deep intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We feel deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest, and we've turned them into these conversation cards. And we've added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is the brand-new edition. And for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive question from me. But I'm only putting the gold cards in the first run of Conversation

• 1:08:48Steven Bartlett?

  Cards. So get yours now before the limited-edition gold cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description below.