Selects: Operation Mincemeat: How A Corpse Fooled the Nazis

In World War II, a secret department of British 'corkscrew thinkers' hatched a plan to use the cadaver of an unclaimed homeless man to turn the tide of the war in the Allies' favor. It worked. Listen to this classic episode as Josh and Chuck take you through the real life tale. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:31Josh Clark?

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• 1:37Speaker 02

  Hi, everybody. Happy Saturday. It's Chuck here, and I am picking out our select for this week, and I'm going with a more recent one, maybe controversial to do so, but it's our episode on Operation Mince Meat, and I am picking that one because I don't think we were able to record this for that episode, but the Broadway show, Operation Mince Meat, was literally inspired by this episode. The, one of the stars and the producers was all over Variety Magazine and all over the place in interviews, saying that her brother, they were searching for a show to do, to write and, you know, make into a Broadway show, and he said, hey, you should check out this episode of Stuff You Should Know, Operation Mince Meat. This is a really crazy story, and I think there's something there. And there was something there because not only did they make it to a Broadway show,

• 2:22Speaker 02

  it's been a pretty big hit and was nominated for Tony Awards. And I am going to get to go see it in New York City next weekend. And I'm super excited because I think I get to meet the cast. So, anyway, here we go, everyone. Another little feather in our cap. Operation Mincemeat: How a Corpse Fooled the Nazis.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 2:54Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry Rowland. This is Stuff You Should Know. Chuck.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  Yo.

• 3:02Josh Clark?

  I'm 39 years old and I still can't say my own name correctly because of my stupid thick tongue.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Ooh, you're gonna be 40.

• 3:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, soon.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 3:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  You used to make fun of me and now you're old.

• 3:15Josh Clark?

  Well, you're still older than me.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  I know. Nothing I can do about that.

• 3:18Josh Clark?

  That's cool, though.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:19Josh Clark?

  You're aging very well.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:22Josh Clark?

  No, you're aging really well.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  You mean the teeth falling out, the weight gain and the gray beard?

• 3:29Josh Clark?

  I still say you're aging very well.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  I appreciate it. Yeah, things could be worse.

• 3:32Josh Clark?

  Let's see your hair. Take off your hat.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  I still got good hair.

• 3:34Josh Clark?

  Boom. Look at that.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  I got hat head now.

• 3:36Josh Clark?

  Beautiful. Okay.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  People think I'm bald. Some people do.

• 3:41Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Like, you're always wearing that hat. Why do you... Why don't... I don't know.

• 3:45Josh Clark?

  Suspicious people?

• 3:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, the drummer for the Chili Peppers.

• 3:49Josh Clark?

  Anthony Kiedis?

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 3:51Josh Clark?

  Flea?

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 3:52Josh Clark?

  The guy from Jane's Addiction?

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 3:54Josh Clark?

  I don't know them.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Not John Frashanti. Chad Smith, the guy that looks like Will Ferrell.

• 3:59Josh Clark?

  I thought that was Will Ferrell.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  He's always got that hat on backwards and...

• 4:03Josh Clark?

  And he's bald?

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, totally.

• 4:05Josh Clark?

  Brett, like Bret Michaels bald? Remember, he always wears a do-rag because he's super bald.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  So I get why people are suspicious. If you're a public figure that has a patented hat piece...

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Then it's probably because you're bald, but not in my case. What a weird way to start the show.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  Especially this show.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:27Josh Clark?

  Operation Mince Meat.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 4:29Josh Clark?

  Which is a ghoulish, gallows humor, awesomely, World War II British name for this, this operation.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, this will live alongside our, our Nazi spies invading Florida.

• 4:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Podcast.

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  And the History Girls covered this, this very topic as well.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, there's nothing I love more than little-known history.

• 4:49Josh Clark?

  This is, this is it, but this is great little-known history.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this shouldn't be middle-known because it, it was

• 4:56Speaker 02

  after the Trojan War, maybe the largest and most successful military deception plan in history.

• 5:02Josh Clark?

  Well, there is also, have you seen that documentary Ghost Army? About Operation Fortitude?

• 5:07Speaker 02

  No.

• 5:07Josh Clark?

  They used a bunch of blow-up tanks and planes, like inflatable tanks and planes, to make it look like there's a whole Allied division over here.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:17Josh Clark?

  So that we could invade Normandy more easily.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  It's like a Looney Tunes cartoon.

• 5:21Josh Clark?

  Awesome, but yes, this ranks up there with, literally with the Trojan Horse. This is, it's that ingenious and that wonderful.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:28Josh Clark?

  But, so let's set the stage, right?

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:30Josh Clark?

  So in early 1943, the war was very much undecided.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:36Josh Clark?

  It could have been anybody's, like, Europe was under the control of Hitler.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:42Josh Clark?

  Huge amounts of, of Europe, they called it Fortress Europe because he, the Nazis were just, had just overrun the place, right?

• 5:49Speaker 02

  They were dug in.

• 5:50Josh Clark?

  And the, the Allies knew that they needed to get into Europe to topple Hitler, or else like, they weren't gonna win the war.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:58Josh Clark?

  So Churchill suggested attacking Europe's underbelly, which is maybe Italy, Greece, Sardinia.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:07Josh Clark?

  He called it the underbelly.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:08Josh Clark?

  Not very flattering, but he called it Europe's underbelly. So everybody, the Allies, the Greeks, the Nazis, the Japanese, the people in Hawaii, everybody knew.

• 6:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they weren't American quite yet.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:26Josh Clark?

  Everybody knew that the Allies were gonna attack somewhere in that area.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, come up through the Mediterranean, even Hitler feared this the most.

• 6:36Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Which was key.

• 6:37Josh Clark?

  Right, and, and, I mean, everybody knew the Allies were coming and they were gonna come there. But this, this landmass, this area of land and sea is large enough that you can't just be like, "Oh, they're coming down there, we got it covered."

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll cover it all.

• 6:49Josh Clark?

  You need to know kind of specifically where they were covering. And there were just a few places where they could have come. One was Greece, that was where Hitler always suspected.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:58Josh Clark?

  One was Sardinia, right?

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:01Josh Clark?

  And then another was Sicily.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:03Josh Clark?

  And in 1943, I think January, the Allied powers met in French Morocco and held a conference, the Casablanca Conference.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Very sexy name.

• 7:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it really was. And they said, "Okay, we're going to invade Sicily this July. We're gonna call it Operation Husky. Now we have to do everything we can to not let the Nazis know that that's where we're going."

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:29Josh Clark?

  And that actually hatched eventually what's called Operation Mincemeat.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know what, studying this stuff, and I'm not a big war buff, although I'm getting more so, but reading up on this stuff, like, the old wars are so much like the board game Risk.

• 7:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  That it's startling.

• 7:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  It's literally, when you look at this stuff, it's like moving troops to where you think people are gonna attack you.

• 7:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  And rolling the dice a bit. And if you're right, then great, if not, you're screwed.

• 7:59Josh Clark?

  Very much so, which is why it's such a huge shift that we're seeing now in, in moving to unconventional warfare.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, that's scary stuff.

• 8:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I think pretty much all war is scary.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, of course. I'm not saying like Normandy was a cakewalk or anything because they knew what was going on.

• 8:16Josh Clark?

  Man, I watched Saving Private Ryan again the other day, god. It's crazy. That thing's almost a snuff film. It's not as bad as We Were Soldiers, which is a snuff film, but it's.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  I never saw that one, the Mel Gibson one?

• 8:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Dude, it's, it's the most graphically violent mainstream movie ever made.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Really?

• 8:34Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 8:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Like, there's a part where there's, they're, they have a, a shot, a camera shot, over this guy's shoulder. Right?

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 8:44Josh Clark?

  So his helmet's in the, in the near foreground, and that guy takes a hit to the head. And like, blood spray covers the camera lens for the next like, little while.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 8:54Josh Clark?

  His brains just cover the camera. It's disgusting.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  Did you like Saving Private Ryan again, though?

• 9:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's, it's a great movie, but it is like, really, like, violent. That's another thing about getting older, is that stuff affects you more and more. The more you come to terms with your own mortality, the more valuable life becomes, the more valuable even a character in a movie's life becomes, you know what I mean? That stuff gets to you.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Agreed. It's called Growing Up, My Friend.

• 9:19Josh Clark?

  And Becoming Human.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Isn't it gross?

• 9:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Alright, so, uh, on September 29th, 1939, uh, there was a, a director of British Naval Intelligence named Admiral John Godfrey. And he distributed something called The Trout Memo. And, um, it was written by his assistant, Lieutenant Commander Ian Fleming.

• 9:40Josh Clark?

  Familiar name?

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Creator of James Bond.

• 9:43Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  The guy. And, uh, I think most people know that he served at this point.

• 9:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  But, um, if you didn't, that's a nice little factoid for you.

• 9:51Josh Clark?

  So he, he wrote The Trout Memo, and they called it The Trout Memo because they pointed out in the intro that this, that the trout fisherman fishes very patiently, but he changes venue frequently.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:03Josh Clark?

  And he changes his bait very frequently, too. And so, they wanted to, they're charged with deception. They wanted to come up with all these different ideas, all this different bait and venue changes that they could come up with.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this was a time, too, we should point out that, um, Spying, spying is always vital, but man, in World War II, it was going on all over the place and a huge, huge part of the war.

• 10:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  So, um, we need to do one on the Enigma machine, by the way, at some point.

• 10:31Josh Clark?

  We do, because that's one of the unsung heroes in this operation.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Um, all right, so with the Trout Memo, Ian Fleming, uh, wrote, uh, well, co-authored 51 different operations suggestions, and number 28, uh, was one called "A Suggestion, parentheses, Not a Very Nice One." Uh, "The following suggestion is used in a book by Basil Thompson."

• 10:56Josh Clark?

  I'm so pleased that you said Basil.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  Instead of Basil?

• 10:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Uh, in fact, that was a 1937 novel, The Milliner's Hat Mystery.

• 11:04Josh Clark?

  And he was actually a, a World War I spy.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 11:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  It's all coming together.

• 11:10Josh Clark?

  So he was a spy writer that Ian Fleming, the creator of James Bond, dug.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 11:16Josh Clark?

  So that's where this originates.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  So, uh, here was-

• 11:19Josh Clark?

  Sorry, I'm getting excited.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Oh, that's right. "The following suggestion is used in a book by Basil Thompson, colon, 'A corpse dressed as an airman with dispatches in his pockets could be dropped on the coast, supposedly from a parachute that had failed. I understand there is no difficulty in obtaining corpses at the naval hospital, but of course, it would have to be a fresh one.'" So the idea is, let's get a dead person, let's dress him up like a, uh, soldier-

• 11:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  -give him some sensitive documents that leak this invasion-

• 11:49Josh Clark?

  Fraudulent.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  Fraudulent, yeah, very important, that, uh, leak the invasion of Greece-

• 11:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  -which is not really happening-

• 11:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  And they're gonna mount up troops there, and we'll actually go in Sicily, they're gonna find this body, they're gonna think they've stumbled upon this great happy accident, and we're gonna fool them.

• 12:06Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, that was the, that was the whole idea, that was the general basis of it.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  And Churchill loved the idea, because apparently, he liked what he called corkscrew thinkers-

• 12:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Uh, because he knew Hitler thought in a straight line.

• 12:19Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  And by corkscrew thinkers, I think that would be our equivalent of outside the box.

• 12:24Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  So Churchill's like, "This is great."

• 12:28Josh Clark?

  I loved Churchill.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  "Let's drink some Scotch and do it."

• 12:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, let's look like a bulldog while we do it, too.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:34Josh Clark?

  So, um, they, the, the, that idea was roughly outlined by Ian Fleming and then the, the Churchill's Corkscrew Thinkers, the XX Committee, led by, um, Ewan Montague and, um...

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Chumley.

• 12:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which is, his name is not spelled Chumley.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  No. Uh, how's it spelled?

• 12:57Josh Clark?

  Are you ready for this?

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:58Josh Clark?

  Charles, C-H-O-L-M-O-N-D-E-L-E-Y, pronounced Chumley.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and apparently when he met people, he would say, uh, Lieutenant Charles Chumley, C-H-O-L-M-O-N-D-E-L-E-Y. He would spell it out.

• 13:14Josh Clark?

  Would he really?

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:15Josh Clark?

  Are you making fun of me, or is that for real?

• 13:17Speaker 02

  No, no, no. He was a very quirky guy, and that's how, and he described himself as, uh, toothpaste as it had been squeezed from the tube. Like, he self-described, he would go hunting with a revolver, like, bird hunting. He's a weird guy. Uh, I actually watched a quickie BuzzFeed video on this.

• 13:33Josh Clark?

  Uh-huh.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  And, uh, they pronounced it Charles Cholamondelay.

• 13:38Josh Clark?

  Did they really?

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:39Josh Clark?

  Nice. Well, I'm glad we did our research.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:42Josh Clark?

  Shout out to BuzzFeed. So, Ewan Montague, right?

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, the other guy.

• 13:47Josh Clark?

  He is noteworthy in a number of ways, too. Apparently, he's just the greatest guy ever, most interesting man on the planet.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:54Josh Clark?

  Um, and he actually wrote the book, the first book on Operation Mince Meat, because he was one of the people who came up with this and implemented it.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  The man who was never there?

• 14:04Josh Clark?

  The man who never was.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Got right.

• 14:06Josh Clark?

  So, um...

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Which became a movie, too.

• 14:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, of the same name.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:09Josh Clark?

  Starring Montgomery Clift, I believe.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  No.

• 14:12Josh Clark?

  Starring Cliff Claywin. Cliff Claywin.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  Cliff Webb.

• 14:18Josh Clark?

  But not Montgomery Clift.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  No.

• 14:20Josh Clark?

  Those two are virtually interchangeable, though.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 14:22Josh Clark?

  So, um...

• 14:24Josh Clark?

  Well, Ewan Montague was already notable because at school, he and his brother had created the rules for ping pong.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  No way.

• 14:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  I did not know that.

• 14:34Josh Clark?

  Among other things, and his brother, equally interesting, equally rambunctious, went on to become a spy for the Soviets.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 14:43Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  So he turned?

• 14:45Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Against England?

• 14:47Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 14:48Josh Clark?

  Against everybody except for the Soviets.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Well, Montague was a, he was formerly a barrister, an attorney, and this is why he actually did not go serve on a ship. And the other guy, Chumley, never flew a plane. One was Air Force, one was Navy.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  And apparently, Montague was, as an attorney, was very good at just seeing all the angles. So they said, "You, sir, are perfect for this job."

• 15:15Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 15:30Josh Clark?

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• 16:33Josh Clark?

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• 17:16Josh Clark?

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• 17:36Speaker 04

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 17:38Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

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• 18:05Josh Clark?

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• 18:28Josh Clark?

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• 18:46Josh Clark?

  All right Chuck.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:47Josh Clark?

  So we have the rough outline that Ian Fleming came up with. The XX Committee, led by Ewan Montague and Charles Chumley.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, the part of MI5, I believe.

• 18:56Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:58Josh Clark?

  Said, "We're gonna take this particular idea and really run with it." And like you said, they were going to, well, the first thing they did was start setting about creating a backstory.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, they had three months, so the clock is ticking at this point.

• 19:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because here's the thing.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  They set the invasion.

• 19:12Josh Clark?

  Right, in January.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:13Josh Clark?

  And they set the invasion for July.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:15Josh Clark?

  Now, you needed enough time to plant this corpse, this fake dead courier.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:25Josh Clark?

  Into Nazi hands.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:27Josh Clark?

  And with enough time so that the Nazis could digest it, analyze it, decide it was truthful, and then react the way you wanted them to. Which meant that they had no later than May, or else this plan was out the window.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you wanted them, the ultimate goal was to have the Nazis put their troops in the wrong place, and that takes time.

• 19:48Josh Clark?

  Right, so they looked around and they decided that the best place to carry out this operation was Spain. And Spain during World War II was allegedly ostensibly neutral.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 19:59Josh Clark?

  But they had a lot of Axis sympathies, a lot of connections to Nazi Germany. And there was a particular Nazi agent, a spy, working in a port called Huewla? Huewla, right?

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 20:17Josh Clark?

  And his name was Adolf Claus.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:20Josh Clark?

  And Adolf Claus was known to be very methodical.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:23Josh Clark?

  Pretty brutal and ruthless.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:26Josh Clark?

  Extremely gullible.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was a straight-line thinker.

• 20:29Josh Clark?

  He was.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Like Hitler, he wasn't one that could think outside the box and think, "Maybe this is an elaborate hoax."

• 20:34Josh Clark?

  That guy didn't even own a real corkscrew. You know?

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Like they targeted this guy.

• 20:39Josh Clark?

  Cut the tops off of wine bottles. Yeah, they specifically targeted him.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Which is amazing.

• 20:43Josh Clark?

  So they wanted this guy who was fairly gullible, but also known as like a very respected Nazi agent in Spain, um, to be the one who came up with this corpse and cadaver.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 20:57Josh Clark?

  So before they ever had any corpse or cadaver or anything like that, Montague and, um, and Chumley start setting about creating a backstory and they created this guy named, uh, Major, um, Martin.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:12Josh Clark?

  What was this? William Martin, that's right. And they created Major William Martin and they created this whole persona. And this wasn't the first time they'd done it. They'd actually, they had, um, chops with this kind of stuff.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:24Josh Clark?

  So they had created a fake spy network that made Nazi Germany think that they had a whole double, double agent network in the UK. And all of them were fictitious, not real people that Ewan, um, Montague and, and Charles Chumley had created these fake personas.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 21:44Josh Clark?

  And it fed the Nazis misinformation through these people that didn't really exist. So they took that, that understanding and that thinking of what it takes to create a fake persona. And they set about creating one for Major William Martin.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, um, if you, there's a great BBC documentary on this and they interview a lot of the players, um, including a lot of the women who worked at MI5 in the office. And they were all just so delighted that they all described this as like the most exciting adventure they'd ever had.

• 22:10Josh Clark?

  I'm sure.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  It was like something out of a spy novel and they were living it.

• 22:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  And so they all had great fun creating these characters, these made up people. Um, they wanted to give him a fiance, uh, because the idea is that they find this body with what, not only these documents in a briefcase, the important documents, but to make it believable, he had to have believable what they called pocket litter or wallet litter.

• 22:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Which is if you find any person on the street, ask them to open their wallet, you're going to be able to tell a lot about them.

• 22:41Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  So just stuff to legitimize it. So they said, let's give him a fiance and all the women in the office wanted to be the fiance.

• 22:48Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  So they all submitted photographs. They picked this one lady, Jean Leslie, uh, secretary.

• 22:54Josh Clark?

  Okay, that's the lady, uh, on the beach?

• 22:56Speaker 02

  Yes, picture of her in a bathing suit on the beach. So this was going to be planted on his body. They all wanted to write the love letters back and forth, but they picked a woman named Hester Leggert, the head secretary of MI5, and she wrote, even though she was a spinster, she wrote all these heartfelt love letters.

• 23:14Josh Clark?

  The first couple drafts were really dirty and they were like, you gotta tone this down a little bit.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  They're like, is that what you think happens in a relationship?

• 23:21Josh Clark?

  She's like, no, not me, the fictitious lady.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  So everyone's really excited in the office. Chumley is wearing what would eventually be the uniform of Martin every day to give it that worn in look.

• 23:34Josh Clark?

  Awesome.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Montague actually ended up having an affair with the secretary who gave him the photo as the fiance.

• 23:43Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  They had a real life affair as Bill and Pam. Pam is the made up fiance.

• 23:49Josh Clark?

  Oh, wow.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  It got a little weird.

• 23:51Josh Clark?

  That is a little weird.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Like, they wrote each other love letters, had a real life affair, calling each other Bill and Pam.

• 23:57Josh Clark?

  Huh.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  So there was some strange role playing going on.

• 24:00Josh Clark?

  I'm sure.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  He was married at the time, his family had been shipped to America, so he was not doing the right thing there.

• 24:07Josh Clark?

  Jeez.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  He was a louse in that department.

• 24:10Josh Clark?

  Well, you know, also, Roald Dahl, the guy who wrote James and the Giant Peach and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, he was a spy for the British, he was in the British military, and his whole job was to basically bed the wives of American officials here in Washington.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Really?

• 24:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Did he do so?

• 24:30Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 24:32Josh Clark?

  Oh, he made his way through Washington society.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 24:34Josh Clark?

  Apparently with great zeal.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  All right, so they're cooking up this backstory, they get other great things for the wallet litter, like theater ticket stubs and an overdraft letter from his bank, and just these things that make it seem like super realistic.

• 24:48Josh Clark?

  Right, and what else? I think they gave him a St. Christopher medal, maybe? They wanted to strongly imply that he was Roman Catholic, and that'll come up. Uh, very, it'll become very important in a minute, right?

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Yes, very much.

• 25:02Josh Clark?

  So they've got this backstory and apparently like this, they were working feverishly on this stuff, having the weirdo affair.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:09Josh Clark?

  Uh, wearing the uniform, all that stuff, before they'd even gotten final approval, just because they didn't want to stop work and then have to pick it up feverishly. They wanted this to, to keep going. So they finally got final approval from Admiral Godfrey, um, to carry out this thing for real. And when they got final approval, they said, okay, we need a body.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:29Josh Clark?

  And they figured, no problem. They were looking at first, they, they needed somebody who, um, who had relatives that didn't care what happened to the body after death.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:40Josh Clark?

  And could keep their mouths shut.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:42Josh Clark?

  Um, they needed a body that was of military age.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 25:46Josh Clark?

  Didn't have any signs of visible trauma.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:49Josh Clark?

  Um, or disease.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Run over by a bus.

• 25:52Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Or died of scurvy.

• 25:53Josh Clark?

  Sure. Um, and that, that preferably they would have died of pneumonia. And the reason that they wanted him to die of pneumonia is because they, they were going to make it look like this guy had been in a plane crash, um, but had survived the plane crash, but had drowned at sea.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:09Josh Clark?

  And if he had pneumonia, then his fluids would be filled with lungs, so that when the Spanish conducted an autopsy on him.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  Fluids would be filled with fluid?

• 26:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly. So that when the Spanish conducted their autopsy, they'd be like, this is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. I've never seen fluid filled with lungs.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:25Josh Clark?

  But that's how much fluid there is.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 26:27Josh Clark?

  The problem is, is they didn't get their hands on a guy with pneumonia. And they didn't even know exactly where to get a person at first. It wasn't until they turned the guy who ran the morgue at St. Pancras Hospital, which is the worst hospital name of all time.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Um.

• 26:44Josh Clark?

  Um, they turned him and got him to assist them, that they finally got their hands on a body.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, his name was Sir, uh, Sir Bentley Purchase, which is a great name.

• 26:53Josh Clark?

  Great British name.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  And, uh, it was, uh, he was a coroner of the largest mortuary at St. Pancras.

• 26:58Josh Clark?

  Oh.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Terrible. And he had apparently a wicked sense of humor. It was pretty complicated to give directions to his office. So when he gave Monty the directions, he said, or you could just get run over by a bus.

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  Nice. Man, the British during wartime were.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  They're having a blast.

• 27:12Josh Clark?

  Their sense of humor was wonderful.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  So they got Bentley Purchase and he said, I've got a dude. Um, his name is, uh, Glendore Michael.

• 27:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that is not how that's spelled either.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  No, it is G L Y N D W R.

• 27:29Josh Clark?

  Super Welsh.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was a Welshman born in nineteen oh nine. Uh, he is the son of a coal miner. His father killed himself by stabbing himself in the throat.

• 27:40Josh Clark?

  I hadn't read that.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Can you imagine a worse way?

• 27:43Josh Clark?

  Man.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  And it didn't say like slit your throat. It said he stabbed himself in the throat.

• 27:46Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  Which is weird and sad.

• 27:49Josh Clark?

  Jeez.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  So his dad died when he was a teenager, mother died when he was thirty. Uh, alcoholic, had a rough go because of the depression and was basically, basically killed himself by ingesting rat poison.

• 28:00Josh Clark?

  So that is not necessarily resolved.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  What, whether it was suicide?

• 28:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so they, they, they, uh, Bentley Purchase wrote down that he, um, he killed himself.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was ruled a suicide.

• 28:12Josh Clark?

  Okay, but the way that he ate the rat poison, it was on a crust of bread.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  So he was hungry?

• 28:18Josh Clark?

  They wondered.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Ugh.

• 28:20Josh Clark?

  So he, he may have been so destitute that he ate a crust of bread that he found in an abandoned warehouse and it was smeared with rat poison and that's what he died of.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 28:28Josh Clark?

  But they found him in this cold January night in nineteen forty-three. Um, in this abandoned warehouse in London and, um, he had just eaten some rat poison, but he survived for two more days.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:41Josh Clark?

  And so Bentley Purchase got his hands on him and said, I think I found your guy dudes.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they did. Um, there were some issues, uh, one of which is they needed a photo of the guy for an ID. He didn't have any photos.

• 28:56Josh Clark?

  Oh, God.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  And every time they took a picture of the dead guy's face, they were like, he looks like a dead guy.

• 29:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, really.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  So they scoured.

• 29:04Josh Clark?

  I can see your fingers holding his eyes open.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  So they scoured London looking for a look alike and eventually found a guy, uh, a fellow intelligence officer who looked just like him.

• 29:13Josh Clark?

  Awesome.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  So they used his face.

• 29:15Josh Clark?

  Awesome.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  For the ID. It's all coming together.

• 29:17Josh Clark?

  Yes, it is. I'm sure they were like, wow, Providence is really smiling on this.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and if you're feeling bad for Glendore, just hang tight.

• 29:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I still think you can feel bad for Glendore.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Well, sure.

• 29:27Josh Clark?

  Talk about a rough life, man.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:29Josh Clark?

  Jeez. Do you remember that one Saturday Night Live where Robert Duvall was like, super special guest? He wasn't even hosting or mentioned.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  No.

• 29:37Josh Clark?

  He just showed up on this game show called Who's More Grizzled?

• 29:41Speaker 02

  No way.

• 29:42Josh Clark?

  And he talks about like, it was him and Garth Brooks.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Boy, how'd I miss that?

• 29:46Josh Clark?

  And he talks about how one Cole Winter's, his wife died. He had to keep her out in the barn until the ground thawed so we could bury her out back.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  What?

• 29:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was just weird like that. It wasn't even really funny. It was more just like, wow, that really is hard. But the whole game show was Who's More Grizzled?

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 30:05Josh Clark?

  And he won.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 30:07Josh Clark?

  Cause it's Robert Duvall.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's more grizzled than Garth Brooks or Chris Gaines.

• 30:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, even, even, yeah. Yeah. Poor Garth Brooks.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  Not poor Garth Brooks. What are you talking about?

• 30:18Josh Clark?

  I'm talking about the Chris Gaines thing.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  He chose to do it. He's a wealthy man.

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Don't feel too bad for him.

• 30:23Josh Clark?

  I think that was evidence that he was surrounded by yes men at the time.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe. That was a weird thing, though.

• 30:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  You know?

• 30:30Josh Clark?

  He faked a soul patch.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  Oh, that wasn't even real?

• 30:34Josh Clark?

  No, I mean, even if it was real, it was part of his character. It's like-

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Sure. I thought you meant it was Sharpie.

• 30:40Josh Clark?

  Maybe.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 30:42Josh Clark?

  The hair was definitely colored with Sharpie.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  All right, so where, uh, where are we here? We've got a body. We finally got the photograph of him.

• 30:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which is, that's amazing. I didn't know that part.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:55Josh Clark?

  And, um, there's another thing. We found this awesome, uh, military analysis of it.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was kinda cool.

• 31:03Josh Clark?

  Somebody wrote a military analysis of this. I don't remember who, so I can't give them a shout out, but we'll put it on our podcast page. But they point out that one of the reasons this was so successful, this operation was, one, these guys at XS Committee, XX Committee, just had free run to break the law, um, bend morality.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:23Josh Clark?

  Do all sorts of stuff. They just were able to go do their thing. But the other thing was is that they really kept this a lid on this stuff. And it was all disseminated on a need to know basis. So when they had this guy, they had him, they had, they got Glendur, kept him on ice for three months as they finished his backstory. They're running up against like go time. And then I think in February or March, or April, maybe. I'm not sure of the date. Do you know?

• 31:53Speaker 02

  That what happened?

• 31:54Josh Clark?

  When they finally carried out Operation Mincemeat.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Let's just say spring because I know that they kept him on ice for a few months.

• 32:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and they, so they're up to the point where the decomp is about to give away that this guy didn't just recently die.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that was a big fear that the Spanish coroners would be able to tell too.

• 32:14Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  Which will come up in a minute.

• 32:16Josh Clark?

  Okay, and they're also getting to the point where they're reaching the end of the amount of time that they need to give the Nazis to absorb this mincemeat information.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 32:25Josh Clark?

  So they finally, they, they get the guy's persona in place. They have the body and now it's time to actually carry out the operation. And like I was saying, they kept a lid on all this, so it was a need to know basis. So they got their hands on a sub commander who could keep his mouth shut. And they gave him a metal cylinder with the corpse of Glendur Michael, now Major William Martin.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, when you say sub commander, you mean submarine.

• 32:50Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Not a commander below.

• 32:52Josh Clark?

  Regular commander.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:54Josh Clark?

  That's submarine commander.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:56Josh Clark?

  They gave him the cylinder and they said, we're going to tell you what's in here. Do not tell anybody else. So apparently the people staffing the sub thought this was some sort of weather buoy.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was marked optical instruments. But you're right, he was the only one on board supposedly that knew there was a body inside.

• 33:15Josh Clark?

  Yep, and they put a life jacket on him, stuffed him in the cylinder, put him on the sub and took him over to Spain under a, on a submarine.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Well, let's back up for one second too.

• 33:23Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Because we, we forgot to cover the, the main letter in the briefcase.

• 33:29Josh Clark?

  Really important.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  This was the, the, all of Operation Mincemeat, it did not hinge on theater ticket stubs or bank overdraft letters.

• 33:36Josh Clark?

  It's merely pocket litter.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  It hinged on a, a letter. Uh, hinting strongly that the invasion was gonna come up through Greece, uh, Sardinia.

• 33:48Josh Clark?

  Right, and that was the other thing too. It wasn't like official document invasion is going to come through Greece.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:55Josh Clark?

  It was a letter from one general.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:57Josh Clark?

  Or admiral to another high ranking guy.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  I think General Nye, uh, they, they composed a bunch of different letters themselves. And finally, they said, why don't you write it?

• 34:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  In your own words, in your own language.

• 34:08Josh Clark?

  In your own handwriting, everything. So it really was written by this, this, um, high ranking US military official or British military official, um, who, who, who wrote this fake letter.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  And he made a joke about sardines.

• 34:22Josh Clark?

  A terrible joke.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Which was the little hint.

• 34:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  That, uh, was just clever enough to work.

• 34:28Josh Clark?

  Right, and so in it, it basically says, um, we're, we're coming up with the, you know, we're gonna strike through Greece. That's where the invasion of Europe's gonna be.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:37Josh Clark?

  Um, but we're also going to tell everybody that Sicily is the cover, right?

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:44Josh Clark?

  And this was a stroke of genius.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:46Josh Clark?

  Because in this, this false letter, not only does it show that they're coming through Greece, which they weren't.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:53Josh Clark?

  But it says that Sicily's the cover, which would make the Nazis think that if anyone ever did actually leak the real invasion plan of Sicily.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:02Josh Clark?

  The Nazis would think that that was misinformation.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Dude, it was so ingenious.

• 35:06Josh Clark?

  That's crazy ingenious. And I think about here now Chuck, we get to the point where we should talk about the Enigma machine and the role it played, right?

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, basically, we all know that the Enigma machine was the code breaking machine invented, uh, in the UK to decipher, uh.

• 35:26Josh Clark?

  Well, the Enigma machine wrote the code, I think.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  Oh, it wrote the code?

• 35:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  I thought it deciphered code that was they'd gotten.

• 35:33Josh Clark?

  They deciphered it at Bletchley Park, but I think the Enigma machine was the actual code writing, the encrypting machine.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 35:40Josh Clark?

  I could be wrong, but okay.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Well, so we definitely need to do a podcast on that.

• 35:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  Cause we're mixed up already.

• 35:45Josh Clark?

  To get it straight.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  But at any rate, the long and short of it is in Beckley Park, was it Beckley Park?

• 35:50Josh Clark?

  I always say Bletchley.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  Oh, is it? Was there an L in there?

• 35:53Josh Clark?

  I, I draw the whole ugly word out.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Uh, they basically had, they could, it was like reading. The Nazis email essentially.

• 36:01Josh Clark?

  Like-

• 36:01Speaker 02

  On a daily basis.

• 36:02Josh Clark?

  On an hourly basis.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Hourly basis. They knew exactly what was going on, so they would know if they were buying this whole thing as it happened in real time.

• 36:10Josh Clark?

  But even before that, they were able to craft this misinformation based on the Nazis' assumptions. So, everybody wants to hear that their assumptions, that their beliefs are correct.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:24Josh Clark?

  People are more apt to buy that, things that confirm their suspicions or their beliefs already, right?

• 36:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, Hitler was worried about Sicily.

• 36:31Josh Clark?

  He was. So, he already thought that Greece was gonna be where we invaded.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:36Josh Clark?

  And then, secondly, he was, we knew that he had heard rumors that Mussolini was gonna be toppled soon, so he was reticent to commit troops to Italy, Sicily, right? So, this revelation that came in the form of this letter, this false letter-

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:54Josh Clark?

  Completely supported everything that Hitler and the Third Reich believed as far as this European invasion was gonna go. And we were able to do that thanks to the smarties at Butchley Park, right?

• 37:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this letter too, it's, um, here's another little tidbit. They put a single eyelash in the fold of the letter, uh, so they would know, when they eventually got this letter back, if there was no eyelash, they would know that the Nazis had, in fact, opened it.

• 37:20Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Um, and, cause the idea was they would open it, reseal it, and act like we never saw it.

• 37:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  But if there wasn't that eyelash, then they'd know.

• 37:28Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  So rudimentary, but it worked.

• 37:30Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. So, um-

• 37:33Speaker 02

  Should we take another break?

• 37:33Josh Clark?

  Let's take a break.

• 37:48Josh Clark?

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• 37:58Speaker 02

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• 38:10Josh Clark?

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• 38:26Speaker 02

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• 38:51Josh Clark?

  You know, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next, unless something starts to feel off. Because what we eat and how our bodies respond to it is complicated.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  That's right. From the very first bite, food kicks off a chain reaction, signals moving between the gut, the brain, and the immune system, the constant back and forth we can't see and often don't fully understand. So we want to introduce to you Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio. It's hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Eating Interrupted explores everything from food allergies and intolerance, and why they seem to be on the rise, to how digestion changes as we age, and what it's really like to live with a chronic GI condition.

• 39:34Josh Clark?

  Through personal stories and expert insight, listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect, and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  You know, you're never done decorating your home. You know what I mean?

• 39:59Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do, or buy, or update. The only question is, what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly, it's usually a new rug.

• 40:10Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck, whether you need a rug, or whatever is next for you, you can go to Wayfair. It's the smart place to get it.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  That's right. Whatever your style, whatever your budget, whatever you're looking Looking for Wayfair makes it easy to find it and you can feel good about your purchases too because Wayfair verified products go through a thorough 10-point quality inspection.

• 40:28Josh Clark?

  And with over 20 million five-star reviews, Wayfair must be doing something right. You can find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 41:01Josh Clark?

  Okay, so Chuck, we are at sea aboard a submarine.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  That's right. It's chilly down here and dark.

• 41:07Josh Clark?

  It is.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  And you're not supposed to be smoking cigars.

• 41:10Josh Clark?

  No, you're not.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Despite Gene Hackman doing it in Crimson Tide.

• 41:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, what a bad idea.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:15Josh Clark?

  Um, so we're off the coast of Spain. We're off the coast of, uh, Huebla. Not an easy word to say, but it's a port in Spain. And again, this is where Nazi agent Adolf Claus.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, they kind of want to float the body right up to this guy's backyard, basically.

• 41:31Josh Clark?

  So they did. He was released from this canister. I, I read somewhere else that, um, the canister itself was fired on with submachine guns on a sub. So you could just call them machine guns there.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:46Josh Clark?

  Um, and it was sunk and the body drifted off toward.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Oh, really? Oh, I thought they just dumped the body.

• 41:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I, I'm not sure. Cause I, I found a book, um, on Google Books. It was like from 2007 and it was a, a history book.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  Gotcha.

• 42:01Josh Clark?

  And it made it sound like the sub, um, the people working on the sub all knew what was going on. But that's in stark, stark contrast to everything else we've seen.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:11Josh Clark?

  So they may or may not have sunk the weather buoy, who knows? But either way, Major Martin was released into the current that took him right to Huevila. And he went, I think he was found by a fisherman that same day.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, and at this point, the, um, the, the Brits started sending telegrams about a, a, a very important missing person.

• 42:32Josh Clark?

  Frantic.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, they wanted these to get intercepted, obviously.

• 42:36Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Uh, and that worked as well. This is all really going exactly as they had planned.

• 42:40Josh Clark?

  So they sent the British consul in Spain, in Huevila, um, or in Spain to Huevila, and said, uh, you need, this is really important. You need to get your hands on the briefcase. Find out what happened to this guy and get your hands on his briefcase.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Klaus is going, "Briefcase?"

• 42:56Josh Clark?

  Right. Hmm, his monocle popped out. And, um, the British consul in Spain didn't even know what was going on.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:03Josh Clark?

  They thought like this, like, they were, they saw everything from the same aspect of reality that the Nazis saw.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, need to know basis.

• 43:10Josh Clark?

  Exactly. So the British consul are trying to get this briefcase kind of frantically. Um, and the Spaniards were like, uh, you know what? We are just going to keep this on lockdown for now as we investigate the whole thing. But we got it covered. Remember, we're neutral, so your briefcase is safe. And the British consul said, well, okay, one thing, this is very important. Uh, this guy was Roman Catholic. You can check out the medal in his pocket.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:36Josh Clark?

  Um, so please don't dissect him. It's against Roman Catholic beliefs and traditions to, um, dissect or autopsy a body. I hadn't heard before, but apparently in the 40s, that was the case.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  And Spain was way down with that.

• 43:48Josh Clark?

  Super Roman Catholic. And they said, oh, yes, of course, we won't do that. So apparently that's how they got around the fact that, uh, Glendur hadn't died of pneumonia.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the other way they got around it was they had a plant, uh, in the office, who talked to the coroners and was like, "Guys, it's hot. And this body is gonna start rotting real soon. So how thorough do you really wanna make this?" And they said, "You're right. Let's go have some, uh, some wine, some, uh, what do they call it over there?"

• 44:17Josh Clark?

  Wine.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  No, what's the fruity?

• 44:20Josh Clark?

  Sangria.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, "Let's go have some sangria."

• 44:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  And knock off early. And that's exactly what happened, thanks to the plant.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  So this is going on, there was a small wrinkle at this point. The briefcase went to Madrid. Spain wasn't going to hand it over to anyone. But the Brits were trying to get it in the hands of the Nazis and they're actually having trouble getting it into the hands of the Nazis. Until a guy named Carlo Cullentall. He was Hitler's most trusted guy in Spain. He got wind of it. And kind of took over for Klaus. Was like, I'm going to get this briefcase. And he did.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  Nine days later, after the body washed ashore. The letter ended up in the hands of the German. The German, you know, worked his way up the chain.

• 45:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, to Hitler himself.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it went to Goebbels first and Goebbels even in his diary, they found later, had suspicions about it.

• 45:14Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Because he was a corkscrew thinker. And he was like, wait a minute.

• 45:18Josh Clark?

  This is pretty convenient.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is really fishy here. But apparently he never said anything to Hitler.

• 45:25Josh Clark?

  He got distracted.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  He wrote about it in his diary.

• 45:27Josh Clark?

  By his kittens.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  The documentary said that his thinking was, well, if Hitler believes it, then that's good enough for me.

• 45:33Josh Clark?

  That seems like a bad idea.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. And homeboy Carlo Cullentall. There was always a lot of speculation on why he just ran with it and didn't ask more questions. Because that was his job. And it turns out, his grandmother was Jewish. And he was very paranoid about this being found out. So he thought, this is it, I've come upon the greatest find of the war. And it's all mine. So, no one will ask any questions about me after this.

• 46:04Josh Clark?

  Wow, that worked out really, really well.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, very convenient.

• 46:08Josh Clark?

  And thanks to the Enigma machine, they knew, the Brits knew pretty quickly that this was working. And I guess Montague and Chumley sent Admiral Godfrey a transmission that said, "Operation Mince Meat swallowed rod, line, and sinker."

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, when the, it's so cool seeing these old, like...

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Apparently, you're not supposed to say elderly anymore, by the way. We got an email.

• 46:33Josh Clark?

  I knew that.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  Or seniors. You're supposed to call them older adults.

• 46:37Josh Clark?

  Seniors, I, I, I didn't know that that was a thing.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, older adults. So they're interviewing these older adults, these British ladies that are in their eighties now. And they were just all so still excited. They said when they, because you know with the Enigma machine, they were basically reading their emails.

• 46:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  And they were like, they knew, they were buying it, they're buying it.

• 46:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 02

  And everyone was just like flipped when that came through the office. It was just like party time, basically.

• 47:00Josh Clark?

  So the, the Operation Mintz Me really, really worked really well, so much so that apparently Hitler moved a Panzer division, which totals about ninety thousand troops.

• 47:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:14Josh Clark?

  From Sicily to Greece.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:18Josh Clark?

  And.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  And all the artillery and armaments and everything, not just soldiers.

• 47:23Josh Clark?

  So long Sicily, we're going to Greece. And then up came the Allies through Sicily. Hundred and sixty thousand Allied troops stormed Sicily and only seven thousand lives were lost, which is still a lot of people who died, but apparently as far as military historians are concerned, and I think the military at the time, that was a way fewer lives lost than they expected.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:46Josh Clark?

  Um, had they, had Hitler not swallowed Operation Mintz Me.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, they expected, um, ten thousand casualties in the first three days and three hundred boats sunk in the first two days. And it ended up being fourteen hundred in that first week, soldiers and, uh, about a dozen ships in that first week.

• 48:04Josh Clark?

  So that's not bad.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and not only that, but it had another effect.

• 48:08Josh Clark?

  Big one.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  The Soviets.

• 48:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so this is not something that they teach in American history classes in US high schools that much.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 48:16Josh Clark?

  The, um, the Operation Husky, uh, well, it was, it was that penetration of Europe's underbelly, right?

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:24Josh Clark?

  And suddenly Hitler said, um, I'm about to storm Russia, but I really need these troops down here in Europe because I got big problems.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:33Josh Clark?

  And that allowed basically Russia to topple the Nazi regime.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  And Mussolini get toppled by the Brits.

• 48:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  It, it completely changed the face of the war.

• 48:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  This one idea cooked up by Ian Fleming in part. Isn't that crazy?

• 48:48Josh Clark?

  It's pretty awesome.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  You got other stuff?

• 48:51Josh Clark?

  Um, there's a book called Operation Mince Meat by a guy named Brett McIntyre.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  All right.

• 48:57Josh Clark?

  That came out in 2010. That's a very good, well cited book, um, that we inadvertently cited here or there. Um, and then there's The Man Who Never Was, which was written by Ewan Montague, which is not just about Operation Mince Meat, but also about basically how to carry out deception plans.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  All right. Remember earlier when I said, "Don't feel too bad for, uh, for Glendore Michael?"

• 49:20Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Even you said, "Well, the dude died, uh, possibly of suicide because he was penniless and going nowhere."

• 49:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  So feel bad about that. But, uh, 50 years after he was buried in 1997,

• 49:35Speaker 02

  the British government added, they basically buried him with military honors.

• 49:39Josh Clark?

  The Spanish did.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Oh, this, yeah, he was buried in Spain.

• 49:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  But the British, it came from the Brits, I think, to do so.

• 49:45Josh Clark?

  His headstone, um, came from the Brits, but the Spanish buried him with like the, a 21-gun salute and everything.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. It says, "Glendore Michael served as Major William Martin, R.M., uh, Royal Marine." Pretty cool.

• 49:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  So this alcoholic drifter.

• 50:02Josh Clark?

  Who never served in the military.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Never served in the military.

• 50:05Josh Clark?

  Buried with full military honors.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And completely changed the face of the war, thanks to being a body.

• 50:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  That fit the, that fit the bill.

• 50:14Josh Clark?

  And if you like ghoulish photos, there's a very famous photo of him being propped up in his life jacket and uniform as they were basically loading him into the cylinder, um, that you can see by searching, I'm sure, Major Charles Martin.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 50:29Josh Clark?

  Charles Martin, no, William Martin.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  William Martin.

• 50:31Josh Clark?

  Something like that.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  I still want to know what was going on with that, uh, weird role-playing there with, uh...

• 50:35Josh Clark?

  Dude, that's odd.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Bill and Pam?

• 50:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause they interviewed the lady who, and she was just like, "Oh, it was all very exciting."

• 50:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:44Josh Clark?

  Nice. That's a great British lady accent.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Ol- older person?

• 50:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah, older adult.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Older adult.

• 50:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:51Josh Clark?

  Oldie. Uh, if you want to get, or no, if you want to know more about Operation Mince Meat, just type that word into your favorite search engine, or go check out the, uh, Stuff You Missed in History Class episode. And as I said, Stuff You Missed in History Class, it's time for listener mail.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  I'm gonna call this bread crust. We had that discussion about the crust and the end pieces.

• 51:14Josh Clark?

  Oh, I remember.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  So this is from a dad. Dear Chuck and Josh, your discussion of the end slice of bread in the Body Language episode brought a ridiculous grin to my face as I walked around my neighborhood. Don't worry, though, my neighbors have thought me to be eccentric for years now. Look at that guy, he's smiling.

• 51:32Josh Clark?

  What a weirdo, he must be a pinko.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  When our daughters were still tiny, my wife and I realized we were doomed to 18-ish years of eating bread crust pieces ourselves if we didn't figure something out and quickly. Our solution, we started calling those pieces the lucky piece. And boy, did we rook our innocent, trusting toddlers. Turns out, your supposition is correct, Chuck, at least for children under 11 years old. Even if they're honor students, as mine were, they will fight you for the right to eat that savory, oh-so-desirable piece of luck. Nice idea.

• 52:06Josh Clark?

  Younger adults.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  Rock on, guys, and please keep my goofy grins coming. That is from Ted, C-O-I-N-E, with a little, uh...

• 52:16Josh Clark?

  Coine.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  Coine, coinie. Is that a accent duh? No, I don't know. I didn't take French.

• 52:23Josh Clark?

  Legume.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  What do you call that, a legume? Accent legume?

• 52:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  So, thanks, Ted. I'll just call you Coin.

• 52:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Thanks, Ted.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Coine, coine.

• 52:34Josh Clark?

  I don't know, let's say Coin. Yeah, thanks a lot, Ted. Ted contacted us on Twitter.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Oh, he did?

• 52:40Josh Clark?

  Saying he wanted to send us this email. So, there you go, Ted.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 52:44Josh Clark?

  If you want to get in touch with us, you can send us an email to [email protected].

• 52:53Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 53:09Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford ability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of Vivgard. Vivgard is also known as its generic name, Fgard Tigamod Alpha F-Cab. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 53:50Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com.

• 54:42Speaker 00

  Not an Empower client, paid or sponsored. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.