British Parachute Regiment Sniper | Hugh Keir | Ep. 308

Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Hugh joined the British Army in 2000 and served in the Parachute Regiment for 11 1/2 years, specialising as a sniper. He reached the rank of Sergeant. find Hugh here: https://charliecharlieone.com/about-h-hour/ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnPodcast/featured —————————————————————- Today's Sponsors: GhostBed⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 50% OFF!!! ____________________________________ Pre-order Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" today! ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— To help support the show and for all bonus content including: https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse -AD FREE AUDIO -AD FREE VIDEO -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Team House merch: ⬇️ https://teespring.com/stores/my-store-10474963 Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample Want to sponsor the show? Email: ⬇️ [email protected] #parachuteregiment Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:59Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already. To support the channel is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at just $5 a month. And when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes ad-free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers. But this is the biggest and best way that you can support the Team House channel and podcast if you'd like to, and we really appreciate that. So go and check us out at patreon.com/the team house.

• 1:41Speaker 03

  Special operations.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  Covert ops. Espionage. The Team House. With your hosts, Jack Murphy.

• 1:59Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, this is episode 308 of The Team House. I'm Jack, here with Dave. And our guest on tonight's show is Hugh Kea. He served in three para, doing deployments, three deployments to Afghanistan, two to Iraq, a couple to Northern Ireland. And he is also the host of the H Hour podcast. And Hugh, before we jump into the interview, man, H Hour, I sense, is it somewhat of a similar mission statement to what we do here, except on the other side of the pond?

• 2:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, it seems like it. I think there's definitely crossover between the two. And it's, you know, you've got a long form going on. It sounds like you interview people you're pretty much interested in predominantly from a military or military adjacent background. So I think it seems pretty similar, except mine are mostly Brits and yours are mostly American.

• 2:48Jack Murphy?

  What kind of people do you, what kind of Brits do you have on your podcast?

• 2:52Speaker 04

  Oh man, well, it's starting off, you know, predominantly my network is predominantly ex-military, ex-military male. So it started off ex-military, ex-military male. And now I go into all sorts of different areas. So from experts in psychedelics and medicine and psychology, politicians, musicians.

• 3:12Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  You know, it's still predominantly ex-male.

• 3:15Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  But you know, as it goes, the bigger the network gets, the more access you've got to other people. You think, ah, there'd be a good chat too.

• 3:22Jack Murphy?

  That's awesome. Well, yeah, congratulations. I hope people will go check out H Hour, get a different perspective on a similar topic, right? But Hugh, let's, let's start off, I want to hear a little bit about you. Tell us about, you know, how you grew up and how that took you towards the British military.

• 3:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a good question. So.

• 3:48Speaker 04

  I think, you know, a lot of, a lot, a lot of people who end up in the military do so because they've got family who are in the military and it's kind of a, almost a rite of passage in some families and, or it's expected. Uh, it wasn't the case for me. Um, I grew up, I grew up in, in a, in Wales, Wales, which is part of the United Kingdom, you know, next to England, but it's definitely not in England. It's not to be, not to be confused. There's no love lost between the two countries, right? Um, and I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere, you know, like four, three or four miles away from the nearest neighbour. There was literally no one around. Um, so I spent a lot of my time out and about doing what you do when you're, all, all you've got is countryside and, and your dad's a keen, keen, keen countryside enthusiast in the most

• 4:33Speaker 04

  positive way I mean that. So we went out rambling, you know, he was out showing me how to shoot and, uh, and just learning, learn, learning all about it. So, um, that's where I grew up and, uh, I ended up, I basically ended up, initially I wanted to join the air force, which is obviously not where I ended up. I'm not sure why I wanted to join the air force, but, um, I think I had a feeling that I wasn't really, I wasn't really happy with myself. Um, I was quite low self-esteem, really low self-confidence. Not quite sure what that is. I think it's because I had quite an isolated upbringing in, in terms of like social opportunities.

• 5:13Speaker 04

  Like there was animals, there wasn't many kids, you know, when, when, when, and they don't talk very much. They talk a little bit, but I haven't a clue what they're saying. But when, you know, when you grow up, most people, they grow up and they, they finish school and they're out socialising with their, their friends and then on the weekend they're socialising with their friends. Well, I didn't really have that. So I think my social skills development was just really poor. And I think that as you grow up, but you become a teenager and you just, more of these interactions are expected. And like social status becomes a conscious thing and the way you interact with other people and they interact with you actually impacts how positive or negative you feel about yourself. I think it really impacted me. So I was really, really low self-confidence, low self-esteem. Going into my, you know, into my teens and I think that.

• 5:58Speaker 04

  I saw the military as an opportunity to sort of prove myself to myself, if that makes sense. Really, that's what it is. It wasn't for anyone else. It was kind of prove myself, are you not a loser? You've got something about you. And and really, the only thing I'd gone about with times was I was pretty fit. Um, I was physically fit, but physically fit from the waist down, like from the waist up, it was just skin and bone. For waist down, I had thighs like tree trunks, just from from running on all the hills when I was growing up, you know. Um, and.

• 6:29Speaker 04

  So, yeah, South Wales, looking at the RAF, the Royal Air Force. I needed, I think I wanted to go into aviation engineer or something random like this that I'd seen in a book about career opportunities in school. Um, I needed A levels for that, which is our like college, college qualifications. Um, I don't know what you call them over there, but it's, you know, you go from your your normal school stuff into college. Needed A levels, it's a couple of years to do that. And I got college royally wrong. Um, uh, one, I wasn't paying attention. And two, I set up a website, this is like the nineties, so I was way ahead of the curve. I set up a website which were, which was neatcollegesucks.co.uk. And it wasn't true.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  And I thought I'd be really clever and hide in my tracks, but I wasn't. And the class will leave the college before I was pushed. So I wish I still had that website, but I don't anymore. Um, and so I left. I had no A levels, I couldn't join what I wanted to do in the RAF. Um, and I, there was an advert on TV at the time for saying, I'll go and spend twenty four hours with the paras. I had very little knowledge of the paras or any of the military, really. And I went and spent twenty four hours down in a place called Aldershot, which is in England. It's not too far from London. And that's where, that was the home of the paras at the time. And you basically go and spend twenty four hours. They show you all the nice shiny weapon systems and the nice uniforms and all the

• 7:53Speaker 04

  a lot of the guys who were serving at the time, and you do all the cool military stuff, none of the horrible military stuff. And there was a fitness. Assessment, which was basically a run, a mile and a half, I was a mile and a half warm up. And then a mile and a half best effort and I won that. And then I thought, yeah, that's it. I'm gonna join, I'm gonna join the Paris. And I I signed up for that immediately. Uh but it took about, it took me about six months before I was, I could even start training because my. Uh my mother's Irish, so Republic of Ireland. And it me, it meant extended.

• 8:27Jack Murphy?

  Security clearance.

• 8:29Speaker 04

  At the time, it was sort of tail end, it was. Come at the tail end of the Northern Ireland, the troubles, as they know in other here. Um we were still, we still had an active operation going on in in Northern Ireland. And they needed to cross the Ts and dot the Is and make sure I wasn't the wrong kind of person getting rich. There was a, there was a lot of people get left, got left off the family tree with that, that, that.

• 8:54Speaker 04

  When the application was submitted.

• 8:57Speaker 04

  The the reality is, is that the island's so small, you know, it's like.

• 9:01Jack Murphy?

  Everyone's related.

• 9:02Speaker 04

  But be related to a terrorist, like a member of the IRA, or at least someone who helped them a few times. And there was, there's a, there's at least one person I I knew at the time who. He was, um, I don't know, maybe twenty or thirty years older than me, and he was. He used to be a getaway driver for the IRA after they'd been dropping bombs off and things. That was his claim to fame, so to speak.

• 9:22Jack Murphy?

  So there's a, there's a little bit of fiction on your entrance clearance there. Uh but that, that, that is an interesting, you know, thing and something interesting that, you know, the British government did have to deal with, right? I mean, I can understand that they'd be concerned about that.

• 9:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, the, yeah, I, and you know, the, the reality is, is that we were, until very recently in our history in the UK. We were having terrorist bombings on ho, on home soil by, by people who were born in the UK.

• 9:51Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 9:51Speaker 04

  You know, or they were south of the border in Ireland. So you've got Northern Ireland, you've got the island of Ireland, and you've got Northern Ireland.

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• 11:59Speaker 04

  She's part of the UK and you've got below that is the Republic of Ireland. And the terrorists want, they want that to be reunited and they don't want the UK to be any part of it. And they were planting bombs and blowing people up in the UK, London, Birmingham, Aldershot, different places. They were doing it in Northern Ireland as well, but that wasn't that long ago. It's pretty crazy when you think about it. I was growing up in times like that. You just, these days you think of terrorism, you think it comes from overseas. As in, it comes from a place, a country which they don't look like you, they don't speak the same language. And they can't possibly understand your culture. And the reality is it wasn't. It was, it was homegrown, so to speak. And it made for pretty challenging operations, you know?

• 12:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 12:39Speaker 04

  When you, when you go out to do counter insurgency operations or any kind of operation against an enemy who speaks exactly like you speak. They grew up in the same culture you did. They know, they, they know exactly how you operate. They don't look that much differently. They don't dress that much differently. Really difficult, really difficult. Turns out we're pretty cunning.

• 12:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, well, I'm sure we'll, we'll get into that a bit. But, so you joined the paras. Tell us about, you know, your intake, what kind of like selection process there is, a training to just get into this unit.

• 13:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, the, so on paper, on paper, I think the first, the first two phases of, of joining an infantry unit in, in, in the British Army. You've got a phase one and a phase two, right? Pretty much for everyone. And phase one is basic, basic infantry skills. And in phase two, you'd normally go on to, you start specializing in the trades. If you weren't going to infantry, if you're going to engineers or something like that, then phase two would be oriented around that. And then some other units will have a phase three where there's extended learning, particularly technical fields, you know? Infantry, so it was just phase, phase one and phase two. With the difference being for the paras, different to every other infantry unit in, in the British Army is that we have a selection at the end of, of phase two.

• 13:54Speaker 04

  So it's not just a case of, okay, pass your basic tests and demonstrate your basic knowledge in phase one and phase two. And you're into unit, if you've got to demonstrate those as a minimum. And then do your selection at the end, and then maybe you'll be selected. Even if you pass the selection, you may be failed, but. Uh, just ignoring that for a second, sort of the phase one, the phase two takes about eight months, seven or eight months, I think it's still the same now. Oh, it's a long course. About to finish, yeah, yeah, I think phase one is like twelve weeks. Um, the first six weeks you're on, you're on camp, you don't get to go home. Um, and then after the six week period, you have like a sort of a for the first formal piece of how you know your basics now.

• 14:36Speaker 04

  And you do a little parade on the, on the parade square and you get given like, uh, I think at that point you give, at that point we were given like a maroon beret. It had the Paris cap badge on it, but it had like a green backing stuck behind it to demonstrate that you were real Paris just in training. But you get to wear the beret and the cap badge. Um, and you wear that then continuously throughout. For me, the, the first, the first twelve weeks, phase one were pretty, they were pretty all right, I thought. I didn't find it difficult. I don't recall finding it difficult. I think the, you know, the instructors I had, they would, I would describe them as pretty easygoing.

• 15:15Speaker 04

  You know, you guys, your experience in training will differ to the next guy who went through, it all dependent on the year you went through, who, who you had instructing you. Did you have decent guys? Did you have lunatics? Did you have violent guys? Did you have people who took no bullshit? Or did you have people who didn't really want to be there? And for me, that, that phase one, I had a bunch of guys who were, they were great instructors. It was just pretty laid back. Uh, I, I thought for most of them, or at least the section commander I had who was in charge of my ten, twelve guys was super laid back. Um, and, uh, I, the, the problem with that for me was that that was not setting me up well for phase two, which was like carnage. I went from, I went from having this laid back crew to going to phase two and just having a bunch of like psychopaths.

• 16:00Speaker 04

  Um, and, uh, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I was kind of, I kind of left phase one after that twelve weeks, still kind of being the low self-esteem, low source of confidence guy, but not realising it. It's like this false sense of confidence that gives me, yeah, I've done twelve weeks, I'm a real soldier now and I, I wasn't. Um, phase two became batshit. And also it was, it was a change in location as well. So our phase one time was done in the Birmingham area, uh, which is like west of England. And there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of hills there, there's not a lot, not a lot of mountains. Um, so the training area is pretty limited and the, the phase two, we moved up to. An area called Catrick, which is in North Yorkshire. And North Yorkshire is north of England.

• 16:44Speaker 04

  It's cold, it's miserable. You know, that's why everyone, everyone in Northern England is like pretty tough. It's because they just have to deal with hardship, like people from Boston, right? Just like, they just grow up in misery. So they're just like these stoic hardcore people. It's like North of England, same with Wales. And Wales is the same, it's just miserable, Ireland too. And so we had like that, that change in scenery, change in surroundings. And up to phase two. Where we went to, where we went to phase two, stop me if you want to stop. No, please continue, yeah. Cool, so we went to phase two. The, the change in surroundings was also that. The paras training location there on the barracks, Helly's Barracks it was called at the time. Or was at the time.

• 17:30Speaker 04

  It was right next to, it was on a massive camp, a big training camp. And there were lots of other units there, lots and lots of other units there. So one of the, so one of the reasons that it was kind of quite chaotic and quite a lot more. A lot tougher, I'd say, dealing with the staff that I had anyway. Is that not only that they were trying to train us in being the best that we could be to go to the units. Um, they were also trying to teach us to absolutely detest and loathe anyone that wasn't like. Uh, in training to be in the paras or even anyone, any soldier who wasn't wearing that cap badge. You was, you, you literally don't speak to them, you don't look at them, they're not, they're not worthy, they're not worthy of your attention.

• 18:15Speaker 04

  And we were recruits, as we told this. And I, I kind of got it, it's like, one of the, one of the differences, uh, we have, one of the advantages we have, I think. Well, it isn't advantage, it's that. Pa- para recruits all the way through, we were only trained, predominantly only, anyway. Uh, most of us are only trained by other paras. So all other units, they'll be trained by anyone. So if I wanna join, I don't know, let's say the rifles regiment or any other regiment. I can go to a training unit and I could have one instructors from, it could be the Paris, one instructor from Royal Irish Regiment, one instructor, you have a mix. And I think that, I think, I think that shouldn't be the case.

• 18:55Speaker 04

  Because I think it, I think in most cases, it kind of warms down the emotional investment that an instructor has in training up a recruit. That recruit could be going to any unit. Whereas if you're training up recruits who you know go to your unit, I think you take a bit more pride in that.

• 19:10Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 19:10Speaker 04

  Like, hey, this pilot turd goes to, because what happens is, if, when I got the, you know, three parrot and you get some media come from training. The first thing you ask is who your instruct, who's your instructor?

• 19:21Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 04

  Because you wanna know who's, who trained this, muck it up. Or you wanna go and ask that instructor, what the hell happened here? Like, why is he through? So, so we, we are only trained by ourselves and that work, I think that works well because we have this sense of pride. Real sense of pride and elitism drilled into us. So we put extra effort into training our guys. It wouldn't work so well if you didn't really give it down, or your unit didn't really give it down. You know, and, and the reality is, and also the instructors, I mentioned the selection process at the end of. PE company earlier, at the end of phase two earlier. Um, instructors want all the guys to pass. They want as many as the guys to pass as to come. They don't want to fail because it demonstrates how good an instructor they were getting the guys to that point. You know, that doesn't mean they don't wanna drop people off. They won't bin people off, you know.

• 20:06Jack Murphy?

  But, but then you, you go to Paris selection and, and it's inverted, right? And there, there, there's instructors wanna see how many people they get to drop out.

• 20:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, basically. I mean, we, I mean, I started, when I started in phase one, there was sixty three of us. And when, when I finished, when, when I got to battalion, there was twelve or fourteen of us.

• 20:26Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 20:27Speaker 04

  Who had good, got through all the way. Yeah, who got through all the way. Um, which is a pretty, pretty big, like, failure rate, so to speak. But a lot, a lot of those, you know, the, most of those numbers, they dropped off pretty early on. Phase one and phase two, because especially phase two, it was so, it was so challenging. It was literally, you know, it was, there was no room for error. The smallest error was hammered and I get why, but in, in, in that particular, you know, training team. Violence was always not, always like a go to for. Gonna fix this problem, you know, and and part of the issue I had was I like I said, I was like super nervous. I was all panicking, like in my head, I was always panicking. And so I'd make mistakes,

• 21:09Speaker 04

  tiny things, and I would just get battered for it. Because you know what it's like, you make one mistake. And if you're not in the right mindset, it just creates another mistake. Right. Another mistake. You start overthinking another mistake. And I was in in that early on in phase two. But I found out the hard way, really the hard, hated it. I hated it initially. Um, uh, but got the got to the selection and and managed to pass it.

• 21:32Jack Murphy?

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• 22:17Jack Murphy?

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• 22:58Jack Murphy?

  With the Code House at checkout to save a whopping 50% off sitewide. And I want to tell you guys about We Defy, my book I have coming out in December, The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History. Tomorrow, I will be at an event in Hackensack, New Jersey, 92 Kennedy Street, Hackensack, New Jersey, sponsored by Triple Lot Design Clothing Company. And I'll be there at 11 a.m. and we're going to be talking about the book and some of the stuff in here. Covers Detachment A, Detachment K, Green Light, Blue Light, The Commander's in Extremist Force. Some things that haven't been written about before, so I'm excited about it and I hope to see at least some of you tomorrow morning.

• 23:40Jack Murphy?

  And for our podcast listeners, that's on the night, so by the time you've heard this. Yeah, that's Saturday the night. So don't show up tomorrow when you hear this. And please check out our Patreon. There's a link down in the description. If you sign up, you get access to all of these episodes ad-free and support the channel. We really appreciate it. You guys, keep this whole thing going. So Hugh, back to you. Yeah, Hugh, real quick, from the numbers that dropped,

• 24:10Jack Murphy?

  what percentage, if you can take a guess, were self-select and then what percentage were like bowled out by the instructors?

• 24:19Speaker 04

  I, oh man, you're asking me now. I'd say in the vicinity of 70% was self-select.

• 24:27Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 24:27Speaker 04

  Like mentally, you know, I mean, the phrase would be rang the bell, we don't have that, but mentally you've been out. And then the other 30% were gone. A very small amount would have gone back, basically gone back to a previous platoon. Hey, a different training platoon, you've gone back a step, need to redo this, could be live firing, it could be safe handling, it could be, you know, something critical. You're going back, oh, fitness, it's not fitness, go back and others would just get rid of. I'd say about 70% was self-select.

• 24:58Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I think that's probably true of all of them. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing how many people go into these processes and.

• 25:09Speaker 04

  Decide that it's just not for them midway through or partway through.

• 25:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, you know, I think they just have a. I know it's a combination of what some people have just been pure ignorance. Some people be over confidence. Some people won't know what they're doing. You know, a lot of people who. A lot of people who join up over here is because they've got a lack of options. And it was definitely part of what what it was with me. I sort of I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I saw a lack of options and. Yeah. I knew this is something. And and it's also for sure. They mismanage your own expectations. Don't realize how hard things are going to be. And that has to be more the case these days, you know, where things are pretty flipping easy. Yeah. When you grow up these days. I mean, they were pretty easy when I was growing up, but relatively speaking, a lot easier now. Yeah. Yeah.

• 25:55Speaker 04

  And then, uh, what were, uh, are there any good slang words that the Paris would use like when they were conditioning you against the non Paris? Like what what were some of the the words that that that Paris called the other units?

• 26:11Speaker 04

  There's two main. Well, there's one main one. So we would refer to, uh, other units as crap hats. Crap hats. And the the reason being is that so so we've got, you know, we've got our normal standard dress and we've got a ceremonial dress. Yeah. So for us, the headdress we wear, our beret, that's all we wear. We wear that ceremonial dress. We wear that standard dress. It's like we don't have any option. Most of the units, with the exception of one, I found out recently, most of the units, if not all, apart from our tank regiment, they have their beret. But then for the ceremonial dress, they wear these like weird cap things. Yeah. I say weird, they're really common, but to me, they're weird. And, you know, they make them look like a postman somewhat. So you're just all the crap. Don't just stay away from the crap hats.

• 26:58Speaker 04

  And the other one was which was less common would be just non ferocious. Stay away from the non ferocious. They're not they're not worthy of your time. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Crap hats has been been been taken on a little bit by other other. It's been taken on by a few crap hats recently, you know, and they tend to say it as a they tend to say it as a bit of slander if you want to insult someone else. A bunch of crap hats. And I think, you are too.

• 27:25Jack Murphy?

  Before, yeah, but before, before we move on, um, let's talk a little bit about what the paras actually are, especially for the Yank audience listening to this that maybe isn't exposed. I mean, the paras are a storied unit, uh, in elite, you know, uh, airborne infantry unit within the British military. I mean, tell us a little bit about the unit and its history, if you can.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, no worries. So, so we're relatively young, you know, the, the British, obviously, you've got an esteemed history of military going about hundreds of years. And so we're, we're pretty young, uh, in terms of militaristy in, in, in, in the British forces. And, uh, and people do take, they do go to great pains to try and point that out as a weakness. But I like to see it as a, hey, we're, we're modern, you know, we're not, we don't have all these troops, crazy traditions holding us back. But we were formed in, in 1942. And it was, uh, it was actually Churchill, uh, who called for it. He saw the Germans had, uh, he saw the Germans had deployed paratroopers in, uh, I think 41 or 40 maybe. And the Germans had like, had actually had a horrendous casualty rate, um, when they

• 28:29Speaker 04

  did it. Um, and Churchill thought, hey, that's sound like a great idea.

• 28:36Speaker 04

  That's, that's the reality of what happened. We need an airborne, we need airborne infantry. And what they actually did was they, they, they basically started training. They got asked to volunteer from different units and they put together a, um, put together an airborne, airborne unit and became originally known as commandos. And then later on became the parachute regiment. And actually went through a couple of iterations early on. But yeah, so 1942 when we were formed.

• 28:59Jack Murphy?

  I might, I might be a little off on my history, but I think we may have gotten our maroon berets from you guys, actually.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah, the maroon berets are pretty common across the world.

• 29:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. I, I, I think it was the exposure to the American forces, to the, the British, uh, that, that came from.

• 29:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, the, the maroon, the maroon actually was, yeah. So the maroon color was actually chosen by, are you aware of a, a general or field marshal? He, he ended up as Montgomery.

• 29:25Jack Murphy?

  But what, I, I thought, wasn't it the wife of one of the officers that chose the color?

• 29:30Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It was Monty's wife.

• 29:33Jack Murphy?

  Okay. Yeah, yeah. That's, that, that's where the American airborne got their maroon berets from also. It originated with you guys.

• 29:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Um, so that's where it came from. So it was 42. Yeah. And, but I mean, originally the, the intent was, and still now, the, you know, the, the, the, the.

• 29:53Speaker 04

  The main function, the capability of our regiment is shock troops, you know, deploy behind enemy lines quickly and fucks you up, basically, you know, just cause mayhem and allow to enable other operations to go on. Um, that's our, you know, that's our, our main wartime role. It must be the same for your airborne.

• 30:13Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. I mean, it's the ultimate flanking maneuver, right? To parachute behind enemy lines and hit them where they don't expect you to be, right?

• 30:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We're the only, we're the only unit of the British Army whose, whose sole purpose is, um, you know, power, power insertion, basically.

• 30:31Jack Murphy?

  And so dated operations in World War II, I take it?

• 30:36Speaker 04

  Hmm. Lots and lots of operations, lots and lots. Um, I could reel them off if you want. I could reel the battle on us off.

• 30:43Jack Murphy?

  Let's hear it. Let's hear it. Let's go. This is, this is a para appreciation podcast, so.

• 30:49Speaker 04

  Uh, you want me to do it? Okay. Brunel, Audner, Brubel, uh, Rhine, the Rhine crossing, uh, Arnhem, uh, Normandy, Primus Old Bridge, Athens, somewhere else I can't remember, and somewhere else I can't remember, and then Falkland Islands. But the Falklands was my need too.

• 31:11Jack Murphy?

  Do you have any idea offhand? I know I'm, I'm kind of putting you on the spot, but do you have any idea, uh, how many, um, uh, airborne combat operations they did during the war?

• 31:21Speaker 04

  Oh, I couldn't tell you. Hundreds, hundreds, hundreds. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't reel off the number. Yeah, but it was hundreds.

• 31:27Jack Murphy?

  It's, it's interesting that on the American side, the Rangers were not airborne during World War II. That didn't happen till Korea, um, but the Hundred and First, who are not airborne today, were during World War II and they jumped into, uh, into Normandy and did all of that. Yeah.

• 31:44Speaker 04

  One hundred and first aren't airborne today.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  No.

• 31:47Jack Murphy?

  They're air mobile. They're they're in helicopters going from point A to point B. They're not they're not parachuting. No.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Don't they still though have, do they still have the airborne designator on the?

• 31:59Jack Murphy?

  They might have an airborne tab.

• 32:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:01Jack Murphy?

  That might still be there.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  But they're not airborne.

• 32:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, no.

• 32:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're air mobile.

• 32:05Speaker 04

  Oh, wow. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. No, I didn't know that. Well, I'm sure. So when did that happen? Because I I I just come back from Arnhem. Well, I said just come back two months ago, just come back from Arnhem, which obviously was Operation Market Garden. You guys are aware of that?

• 32:18Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:19Speaker 04

  And so there's always a lot of Americans out there. And I'm sure I jumped into Arnhem and not in nineteen forty four, but I did it in uh, like two thousand and nine, I think it was. No, yeah, two thousand and nine, maybe. And I'm sure I jumped with a hundred and first. I jumped the Yank Airframe.

• 32:36Jack Murphy?

  You you know, it's po- it's possible that they were a hundred and first guy that went to airborne school and was qualified. I mean, or or somebody who was in the hundred and first and had their combat patch and then went to an airborne unit. I mean, it's it's possible. Sure.

• 32:51Speaker 04

  Jumping with Americans, by the way, is a different kettle of fish to jumping British.

• 32:55Jack Murphy?

  What's the what's the difference between the two?

• 32:58Speaker 04

  Well, structure and order in how we send the sticks out.

• 33:04Speaker 04

  I will go out half a second each side, half a second to stop the air. Now, when I jumped with the Americans, with you guys, it was it seemed to be every man for himself.

• 33:17Speaker 04

  And what surprised me most was people were really eager to get out the door. I was it's not the case with us. Like, you know, okay, we'll get up and get out. We're hot. We're hot and sweaty, but we'll get out when we get out. And, you know, some people aren't a fan of jumping because obviously the injury rate's really high.

• 33:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:32Speaker 04

  But, you know, we jumped with the when I jumped with the US into Arnhem, they was like, they were gagging to get out. I don't know what was going on.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  I think I think part of that, especially like with the eighty second, I think part of that might be just because the sheer number of people they're trying to get off a bird at one time.

• 33:48Jack Murphy?

  And each pass.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  That that they're they're just these mass tack like passes where, you know, it's just raining bodies from the sky. Well, hopefully not raining, but you know, um, but yeah.

• 34:00Jack Murphy?

  A controlled descent.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:01Jack Murphy?

  Semi-controlled.

• 34:02Speaker 03

  Semi-controlled descent. Yeah. Yeah. Because you guys like. Like stealing air and things like that probably aren't major concerns for you guys when you're jumping, right? That you that it's spaced out and it's orderly enough?

• 34:18Speaker 04

  Uh, no, we'd always, when we jump, we'd always try and jump as close together as we would in our position. So like half a second. So you, you know, you, you, when, when this, when the SIM stick's gone out the door, when you've got, for people listening to it on the way, you've got blokes jumping out both sides of the airframe. Half a second, no, the chance of an air steal is still pretty high. So when we went on them, you know, one of the, one of the things I like to do when I go out and watch jumps in on them is I spent, what, four hours laying down my back on the, on the, on the drop zone, looking up and along with everyone else going, ooh, air steal, ooh. You don't, you know, the, the, the, like the controlled, easy descents are not the ones you're looking for. You're looking for the ones which.

• 35:01Jack Murphy?

  Some things never change.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:02Jack Murphy?

  Uh, so you make it through Paris selection. Tell us about being like a young guy, new recruit, showing up in the unit and what that's like.

• 35:13Speaker 04

  Oh, man, well, again, it's like a, he loads you into false sense of security, I think. Did phase one, yeah, thought, yeah, great. Into phase two, that was like carnage. And then finished phase two, got, did selection, passed selection. Um, or was selected, I should say, was selected again, and you think, yeah, right, it's in, win the powers now. And got the battalion and, and it became, it was, man, it was like walking into a meat grinder. You know, you think, you think you've made it, you think there's nothing else you need to prove. And then you walk into the unit and you realize that you're the smallest fish in a lot of, people have been there for a while.

• 35:52Speaker 04

  All of these people, you all of a sudden realize, I was looking up to these people nine months ago, eight months ago, nine months ago, these, I was looking at these guys and thinking, this is the reason I'm joining. And now you're in there with them and expected to be the same standard. And uh, and um, yeah, it was pretty daunting, pretty daunting. Um, I ended up in a room, an eight man room where I first got put into, uh, really basic. Um, and I had a mate in there, actually, right, who I I had from training. And I'd broken my hand on selection, so I'd been delayed to get into the unit because I needed, after you do selection, you do like a live firing exercise, final exercise and and uh, and something else. And so I'd been delayed going

• 36:35Speaker 04

  on to that. So I came a few weeks later and I got put into a room with him. And he, he, he, we were chatting, literally my first hour in there, we were chatting away. And he came, a guy came into the room who looked pretty young. And I said, all right, mate, uh, whatever I said to him, called him mate, however, however he was speaking, I referred to him as mate and he walked out. Um, my friend Ben, uh, who actually went on to um, British SF, he uh, he said, he was looking at me and he was like a ghost. And he said, what, what are you doing? I said, what's the, he said, you called him mate. I, who is he? He said, he's a corporal. So he didn't, he didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I know, you don't, you don't.

• 37:17Jack Murphy?

  Like it's the Minister of Defence.

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• 38:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, buddy, I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting, hey, it's big boys rules. I've like, you know, I've passed my driving test kind of there. I can drive wherever I want. I'm, I've done all my training. I can do what I want. I don't have to call corporals corporal. And it wasn't the case. I just called this guy corporal. He's one of the most respected and formidable corporals in the unit. He also went on to SF as well. And I, yeah, it's sort of, oh shit. And then I went to school again. I'm gonna try and learn how to get through it. But it was hard and fast. You know, it was, it was January 2001, I think, when I got to the unit. And it was kind of a weird time because the British forces at the time, our operational tempo was not high.

• 39:34Speaker 04

  We had a few small things going on every now and again. And, you know, a regiment would deploy and do some peacekeeping or something like that. The exception had been, had been a, there'd been an operation, a hostage rescue mission into Sierra.

• 39:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, Barabas.

• 39:51Speaker 04

  What was that, sorry?

• 39:51Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, we had, we had Phil on, uh, talking about it. Phil Campion.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  Oh, did you? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, so that was, you know, Paris, Paris Marines and, um, and SAS and SBS when they did that. And so that happened the year before. But apart from that, nothing much had gone on. Um, and, and, you know, when, when the operation, I don't know what it's like with the US mill. But I imagine it's the same. Like when the operational tempo is low, people get real bored real quickly.

• 40:21Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 40:22Speaker 04

  You know, tension's really poor. Recruitment is pretty poor. And the kind, and the people, you end up with a, a big pool of people who are in. Who are senior, who haven't actually done a lot.

• 40:35Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 40:36Speaker 04

  And you get, it's a, it's very, it's very, a very different environment, what I know now, to being in it when the operational tempo was really high. You know, you end up doing just bullshit tasks, bullshit tasking, bullshit training, which is very repetitive. You know, you've got commanding officers who have taken over, for example, three power for two years, who wanna make an impact, they wanna get their their CBE or MB, they, they wanna get their knighthood or their award from, you know, Buckingham Palace for amazing service to the country. And how can they do that when there's no operation going on? They invent ways, they're trying to reinvent the wheel, it just becomes very.

• 41:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:12Speaker 04

  So it wasn't a pretty place to be at the time. Um, it was difficult. Um, but then obviously, you know, two thousand and one, like I said, January, I joined and then September, everything changed, literally everything changed. I, I deployed to Ireland, Northern Ireland, the end of two thousand and one, of Christmas. That'll be first operational tours in Northern Ireland. Um, and again, that was winding down, so it wasn't that interesting. I mean, I don't even remember it being that exciting. I remember a little bit of trepidation going out on my first patrols around the, the areas we're in, but nothing crazy, there was nothing real kinetic going on. Attacks and things at the time in Northern Ireland were directed inward to themselves, as in to the local populace, if anything was going on, or towards the police.

• 41:57Speaker 04

  Very little towards British troops because the Northern Ireland peace deal and all this have been signed and it was winding down and British troops pulling out of there slowly. So, um, that was all a bit of an anticlimax, but, you know, uh, nine eleven happened and the world was changed forever and, uh, part of my life, probably your life was changed forever as well.

• 42:17Jack Murphy?

  And tell us about that, about how things changed in, in your unit deploying and, you know, that first pump over to, I don't know if it was Afghanistan or Iraq first for you, but what that was like.

• 42:27Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, that was, I mean, I was actually on at home on leave when when that all started unfolding. And by that time, we'd moved off of the mountain. And we'd moved down into a little village in the valley floor, uh, right next to a couple of rugby pitches. And I was going out to have a kick about with the ball and this thing unfolded on TV. And I was sat there four hours later, five hours later, still with my my rugby boots on, my rugby ball. I hadn't gone anywhere. I was just sort of captured by what was going on. I don't think I really understood what was going on at the time. I was only young. I was very naive. Military was concerned and just global geo, you know, geo, the global politics was concerned.

• 43:06Speaker 04

  Um, and when I returned to the unit after leave, you know, like maybe a week or so later. Um, it was it was just something different in the air. We knew, we we kind of had an inkling that people were going to start deploying. We didn't know what, we didn't know, we didn't know who, we didn't know where. So it was just all a bit up in the air. And my my actual first, uh, global war and terror.

• 43:33Speaker 04

  Operation, if you like, was was, in fact, it wasn't the global war on terror, it was the Iraq invasion, the invasion of Iraq in two thousand and three. That was the first related thing I did. But before that, um, there'd been deployments into Afghanistan, Kabul. Uh, Marines went and a two parrot went on that. Um, but my first big, big op was into. Yeah, the Iraq, invasion of Iraq.

• 43:57Jack Murphy?

  Tell us about the invasion then. I mean, that's a hell of a, your first pop, that's pretty hardcore.

• 44:04Speaker 04

  I remember getting told about it. I remember getting told about it and, um, told we were going. Uh, I I remember being like elated. I was driving. I got a phone call saying we were deploying to Iraq. And I remember being like, can I get a phone call? I remember, well, at the point I was elated about it is in is in my car, driving home. I remember like shouting out loud. Go to war. Yes, go to war. And I think back on that and I think, man, pretty naive to be reacting like that. It's like. Excitement, but the excitement, happiness was a bit, a little bit too elevated. But again, we, you know, kind of off the back of that period of nothing going on. And the prospect of nothing going on ever in your career was becoming pretty, pretty obvious. Um, sort of the chance to go to war was, um.

• 44:44Speaker 04

  Was exciting. Um. We started a, we started a beat up process, you know, a, a, a pre-deployment training, uh, very early on. Um, but that was the first sort of example there. I saw it sort of continued for a few years where our ability to, our capability to train, train ourselves for these other types of operations. I mean, even normal war, war type, like the Iraq invasion was, it kind of weren't there. We still had, like, our training regime and our training, our TTPs, tactics, techniques and procedures, and everything was geared up for Northern Ireland, um, Northern Ireland mainly, and like peacekeeping missions in Kosovo or Bosnia or wherever we were.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  And that kind of continued on even to Afghanistan, where, um, where it just wasn't, wasn't good enough. Um, so the, the Iraq training beat up was, was a lot of conventional platoon company attack type stuff. Um, we did a, we did a massive defensive exercise, uh, which we, we jumped in, we jumped into a drop zone in, uh, in Salisbury Plain, which is kind of s- southern England, uh, west of, west of London, big open area. We dropped in there for a 10-day exercise, pure defensive, jumped in with a, a, a, a crazy amount of kit, and as you always do. Um, I'm, I'm, I think we marched in maybe 15 mile, 10 or 15 miles through the

• 46:11Speaker 04

  night, through into the next day, and then just started digging trenches, stage three, as we would call them. So you had a full, full war style trench, two, two fire, two fire, uh, I can't say fire pits, they're not fire pits.

• 46:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, fighting positions, yeah.

• 46:25Speaker 04

  Fire trench, yeah, either side, wiggly tins, a tin in the middle, earth over the top, so it can withstand a, a chemical, biological, anything attack.

• 46:35Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 46:35Speaker 04

  Um, which took like two days. It's one of the, I, I, have you ever done, have you ever done those kind of exercises?

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Is it not, not full trench lines, just, uh, fighting positions, individual, like,

• 46:46Jack Murphy?

  Or like in buddy pairs.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:47Jack Murphy?

  You know, yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:48Speaker 04

  Oh, god, horrific. Uh, the first time I experienced hallucination was through sleep deprivation. This was, uh, just madness. But you sent, you spend all day, because you're digging through the day. You spend all, obviously you've got your patrols out, you've got sentries out, but most people just dig it. Uh you spend all day looking for where the the engineers are, where they're like the digger trucks. Come along to help and you see them coming up the line, helping different trenches. And then by the time they get to your trench, maybe they helped to get out. Or maybe you get the guys in, put some explosives in and blow it and it almost always makes the trench worse, makes more work for you. It just taves it in like fuck. We did that, did that for a couple of days, horrific. In terms of see that provision effort and uh.

• 47:28Speaker 04

  And a lot of live firing in an area called Brecon, Sandy Bridge Training Area, which is like a, it's our main infantry sort of training area in the UK. It's in, it's in Wales. Conveniently, it's about half an hour from where I grew up, which is good. Um and and then we we headed off to Kuwait. Uh that was a big unknown, you know, I think we were expecting. We were definitely expecting full, full on, full scale war fighting for us.

• 47:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  Uh the reality was for that is that most British units didn't, didn't have that. We had some low, real low level contacts, you know, ticks, um some units had a bit more than others. Uh the armour was really the ones, the units that had a lot. But we had very little infantry infantry wise and we were all pretty naive to it as well. I remember um. I say naive to it, we were, yeah, we were pretty wet behind the ears when it came to any form of combat. You know, because none, none of us had done any of it ever. And again, going back to the point about the kind of people who are in command positions. Almost everyone in command positions in that unit, three parrot, had done no form of combat whatsoever. They'd never been, never been shot at, never shot at anyone else.

• 48:39Speaker 04

  There was a handful of people who had been, who had served in the Falkland Islands in nineteen eighty two when the Arg- when Argentina invaded. And they were, you know, they had, they had literally done the hard, most hardcore hardcore fighting, but twenty odd years before. Um, and there were only a few of them, so their impact was very little. And we really looked up to them, but you know, th- those guys were, they weren't in command positions. They were like quarter masters and things like this, or, or long engagement officers, so Ellie, and Ellie is what we call her, a guy who's, or a girl, who's gone all the way through the ranks, from private all the way up, and then they basically get invited to stay on, and they get converted into a commission,

• 49:19Speaker 04

  convert to captain and stay on. And there was a few of those. So apart from them, no one knew anything, really, in terms of the realities of combat. Um, I remember being sat in the trench, we were getting, we were getting, I said, a shell scrape, wasn't a trench, a shell scrape, maybe a couple of feet deep, in the Ramallah oilfields, and um, we were getting artilleryed, and the guy next to me, who's a still good friend now, Tom, and he's, a little bit of panic. So what are we gonna do if, what are we gonna do if we get hit?

• 49:53Speaker 04

  Nothing, mate. There's nothing you can do, buddy. We're gonna be fucked. We're gonna be fucked. He said, "Oh, don't speak like that. Don't tell them what, you know, what you, what you're talking about." This guy, you know, the kind of the reality, the reality of the situation here. And uh, and that, and that, you know, that was kind of the, an example of sort of the naivety of us. Right. Fast forward, fast forward, three, four years, and it was a very different, different experience for everyone. People are very, very different at that point. You know, so Iraq, you know, Iraq, well, it was a pretty of an anticlimax for our unit. Some guys had a good time, in terms of they actually got, you know, they, they, they popped the cherry, so to speak. Yeah. They didn't really, you know, got, we got artilleryed,

• 50:38Speaker 04

  big deal. Um, we had no, we had no close quarter, no any quarter, my, my section, my platoon, anyway, no form of engagement whatsoever. The nearest we got to that was, we went out on a, we went out to ambush the forward, the forward, uh, observation officer, the Iraqi forward observation officer was coming forward on a motorbike, getting his binders out, trying to spot where you were, and he'd bugger off. He was just out, out of range, he'd bugger off, and then the artillery would come in, and so we went out to ambush him. We went out one night, and he didn't turn up, he didn't turn up next morning. And then another platoon went out the next day, and they shot him up, and got them, but we didn't get them. That's the closest we got, really. A big anticlimax, which was weird, because we came back from there, and everyone, we were treated as heroes.

• 51:23Speaker 04

  Like, wow, amazing. You did all this crazy stuff. It's like, yeah. You don't wanna say, ah.

• 51:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, right.

• 51:31Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? Well, I came up to the house with my parents and everyone else in the house.

• 51:37Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they're they're handing you a beer and you just nod your head. Yep, that's exactly how it happened.

• 51:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. But again, but then then that's my amount of perspective, right? Because even if I said to him, well, this is what we did, they still go, wow, that's amazing.

• 51:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  Look, okay. Just the thought of getting shot at is amazing.

• 51:54Jack Murphy?

  How how long how long was your first pump? How long were you guys out there?

• 51:58Speaker 04

  Uh, that was so four, four months, four and a half months.

• 52:01Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 52:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, we ended up, so we did like a couple of months of war and then we went into the, uh. When the peacekeeping or the the post-war phase kicked in, we ended up moving to patrol the Iranian border. Um, because there was a concern that, there was a concern that the Iranians were trying to kickstart an insurgency like immediately. And they were smuggling weapons across the border, which they were.

• 52:29Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 52:29Speaker 04

  So, uh, we would go over and patrol the border in vehicles, patrol the border. That's pretty fun. Cause he, the border area, I don't know if you've been in the border area, like in southern Iraq with Iran, it's it's like flat as a pancake. You know, it's it's all marsh and you got raised roads, dirt tracks. You can see a vehicle four, five kilometers away. You can see the dust. So if we'd spot them, spot people doing a deal on the side of the road mainly, and we go hair ass chasing after them, they'd see us coming. They see us coming, but it's still with the stop was going as quick as it could catch us. It's a bit of fun. You know, we get there and they chuck all the weapons and they chuck all the car, there'd be wards of cash, they chuck all the cash and we bring that back in. Sometimes we'd catch people and bring them in for, uh, for questioning.

• 53:12Speaker 04

  Um, uh, but it was, again, it was pretty, it was pretty timid, pretty timid. You know, it definitely, definitely not what I was expecting. You know, what I was expecting in reality is what we got in two thousand and six on the first Afghan tour. But that's not what happened.

• 53:28Jack Murphy?

  Tell tell us about that then, about the next trip over to Afghanistan.

• 53:33Speaker 04

  I actually went back to Iraq, actually, so two oh three, I went back to Iraq, done the five, which was a little bit different, you know, they'd switched to, um, that by that point, IEDs were front and centre of the, uh, of the modus operandi of, of, uh, whoever was deciding their attackers. Um, so it's very different, but, um, again, not a huge moment on. And then in two thousand, not for myself anyway, and then in two thousand and six, when we went to Afghanistan. So that was, that was known as Operation Heric, Operation Heric Four, actually, there'd been three operations before in, but the three before basically establishing our base, which was Camp Bastion, it was called. Um, Heric Four was the first time that combat troops had been sent in.

• 54:18Speaker 04

  And that was, that was, that was three power battle group. So it was our battalion for three power, um, of which probably five hundred, six hundred powers, um, with a few, with a few admin adding on to that. And then a battle group, the rest of the battle group was to support us, it was like two thousand strong. So logistics engineers, you know, all, all the usual, uh, that were coming on medics and, uh, and, and specialist signals, comms guys and all that. Um, that was also pretty much an unknown going in. I, I, I remember, I, I remember there was a, there was an interview with, um, a, a politician at the time, I forget his name. And he, he'd said that, uh, he hopes that, he hopes that the, uh, the, the operation would go without a shot being fired.

• 55:02Speaker 04

  Is what he said. Um, and the mission was to go in and basically go and ta- take control of, not take control, but have a presence in key areas in, in, in Helmand Province. So to basically to lay the, lay the ground for, um, reconstruction, provincial reconstruction where it was needed and to stabilise like local government and, and minimise Taliban, minimise Taliban influence in those areas. So he said not a shot being fired. And then six months later, we'd done over a million, over a million rounds, I think. Wow. He got it way wrong. He got it way wrong. Yeah, we went, I mean, that was.

• 55:44Speaker 04

  I'll I'll be up training for that with in Oman. No.

• 55:49Speaker 04

  By that point. I I mean, I, you know, I said Iraq had been the two tours there been pretty much an anti climax, but didn't take you away from the pack. And now we were used to deploying what the operate, what, you know, deploying operations is like different mindset of switch, switches, the different expectations you should have. As in, don't have any expectations, anything can get thrown in, you know, from the type of accommodation you're going to be in, to how often you see that accommodation, to the how much water you're going to be getting. Um. So the weapons systems you're going to be using. And that was no different with with Afghanistan, but the difference was. In that there was a definite difference in the beat of training, and that is because I think the history of Afghanistan is so different.

• 56:32Speaker 04

  Like, you know, the Brits have been beaten up pretty badly in Afghanistan before. Russia got smashed pretty recently, relatively speaking at that point in Afghanistan before. It's not a, it's not a place to be trifled with.

• 56:43Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 04

  Um. And it was a great book. There is a great book called The Bear Went Over the Mountain.

• 56:48Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 04

  I don't know. Yeah, I, I.

• 56:50Jack Murphy?

  Well, that's, yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's interviews with Russian commanders from the seventies and eighties, and they're trying to understand. Basically, after action reviews, but a whole book of it. And where they went wrong, why, why the Mujahideen were just to just do them over. And, and, I mean, you know, in, in summary, because the Mujahideen, the people of Afghanistan. Mainly were part of the Mujahideen and now the Taliban, they're pretty savvy. Like, they know how to, they know how to fight the enemy, you know, and fight the foreigners. And I, we knew that, so the, the beat of training going in was very different. We spent, the last thing we did was we spent three weeks in Oman. And by that point, I was with the sniper platoon. So I'd gone to the sniper platoon in two thousand and four.

• 57:33Speaker 04

  Um, and so within, within three powers, only the way, yeah, the way it works with our snipers is. You can get badged, so you can, you can be invited to go and. Attempt the sniper course, the selection, um. If it's not selection, selection for unit, the sniper course, you come back to the unit, you may get invited to go into the, into the sniper platoon. And the way the snipers work is we, we'll very rarely operate as a platoon, but we will go and. Put one or two snipers to different subunits, different teams, different, different sections, different companies to support whatever they're doing. Um. So in Oman, that was very much where we where we focused our training. It was on,

• 58:19Speaker 04

  you know, shooting in those kind of conditions. Um. And we'd also been graced with quad bikes, you know, like ATVs. Uh. So we were trying to get, trying to work out how best to use it. We hadn't asked for it. It's kind of just been chucked at us. You know, like you get the big operations start off, lots of money gets thrown in, and often you get a lot of kit. You think, what are we going to do with this? We got given a bunch of quad bikes and did a lot of training with those. And um, and then uh, and then, and then, and then deployed out of Afghan. Definitely a different feeling going out there than it was to Iraq the first time we went to Iraq for the war. Um. It just seemed more serious. It would just, everyone just seemed very serious. It was like, like we knew shit was going to go down. We didn't quite know why.

• 59:02Speaker 04

  But again, I think it's just down to the, the history of that place. Um.

• 59:06Jack Murphy?

  I, I mean, you said you were in Helmand?

• 59:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, the first time I was in Helmand, yeah.

• 59:12Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, that's like one of the most contentious parts of the entire country.

• 59:17Speaker 04

  It was, yeah. I mean, at the time, we weren't clear on just how active the Taliban were there and how many there were and how, how, and what their appetite was for having a scrap. And the first, I think the first four, five, four, four or five weeks where we were deployed, nothing happened. No, you know, we, we, I remember going, I remember being in a place called Garesh, a little town called Garesh. And then we knew there was a Taliban influence there. We went in, we were linked in with the local, the local, the local leader. It was actually, we were actually based at the US base there. It was a US base. And in that US, I can't remember the US unit was there. The US were there. There was also a unit of the, our special boat service, so SBS,

• 1:00:00Speaker 04

  our special, one of our special forces units. Um. And then we, a company of powers went in there, myself included. We went and did a bit of patrolling around the town, but the, the people were. Like they didn't have a clue while we were there. They didn't understand what was going on. You know, there hadn't just been a war where we were going in to rescue them from some invading enemy. Kind of, we just, we weren't there one day and then the next day we were. From their perspective, I remember getting asked by, uh, via, no, I meant the Turk getting asked. Um, if we were Russians. Yeah. By a lady in the town, you know. Um, we were greeted positively, we were greeted negatively.

• 1:00:40Speaker 04

  Um, over the first four or five weeks, that was kind of what it was, just bedding in, getting a feel for things. And then after that, um, I think once the Taliban got a handle on us and kind of where we looked like we were going to be settling into. Then they, then they kicked off. Um, and yeah, I remember the first, again, up to that point, this is two thousand and six, two thousand and six now. You know, we've done Iraq, Iraq invasion, done Iraq again. Two power had been out to Macedonia, uh, one power Sierra Leone, all these things had happened. So many pockets of little things going on, but. Even up to that point, the thought of having, um, a firefight, a contact was like, wow.

• 1:01:25Speaker 04

  If you knew someone that had been in a contact, it was like, wow. That guy got shot at and he shot back. Like, it was, it was literally like, it was like a, it was like a mythical beast, these people, because it was so rare at that point. And then I remember the first, the first contact happened. It was a, a big battle that happened in an area called Nowruz. And, um, I can't remember, I wasn't on the op, on that mission, but I, I remember the guys coming back in, it was a company op. And our snipers came back in on that. And, uh, they, they were just so happy. I mean, they were just sweat and dust and just, they looked fucked. They looked like wrecked, like they'd just done a hundred mile, you know.

• 1:02:05Speaker 04

  And the reality was they just tasted their first experience of, you know, an hours long, hours long battle. In forty, fifty degree heat in Afghanistan in a, in a.

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• 1:03:47Speaker 04

  We find an enemy that know exactly where all the rabbit runs are, know how to hide, and they don't wear uniforms. They look just like the locals.

• 1:03:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Speaker 04

  All the tricks in the book. And that was the first one. And then after that, it just carried on. You know, they started hitting everywhere. The Taliban started hitting everywhere. Obviously, the most famous one is, or one of the most famous is Sangin Valley, Sangin District, where the, I think where we eventually left years later, and the US Marines came in. 2008, I think that was, or 2010, Marines came in. So, you know, you guys had been there as well. But it was the tempo of...

• 1:04:32Speaker 04

  Contacts with the enemy was like nothing I ever, I ever expected, no one expected. It was just through the, it was crazy. Um, it was crazy.

• 1:04:40Jack Murphy?

  What was your unit's mission there? Um, you know, you talk about these contacts, like what was it you guys were trying to accomplish versus, you know, what the Taliban is trying to stop you from doing?

• 1:04:50Speaker 04

  We were trying to, you know, I got, one of the things I've realized over the last couple of years, I do, you know, do my own interviews. I mean, you, you, you will know, you guys think through things and you process things from ages ago, based on what someone else said. I, I, I think I should be able to, we should be able to remember these missions verbatim. And the reality is I don't, that's a bit odd, but in, in summary, it was to, it was to gain and hold ground and minimize influence in these key areas so that we could, um, so we could bolster the key leaders, the local leaders, basically bolster local governance. And in areas where we want to do some reconstruction or improve education, improve civil services and all that.

• 1:05:34Speaker 04

  Then we could do that down the line. That was our mission anyway. Um, so we ended up going to, I think we had five or six, five or six locations. Sangin, Greshk, Nowzat, Glashkaga, a bunch of different places. Um, and we, we, we bit off a bit more than we could chew. Really, we spread too thin, I think. Well, we know we spread too thin. Um, because what, what resulted, what ended up happening was

• 1:06:06Speaker 04

  instead of being able to get into a position, get into a compound, most of the time you would take over like civil buildings, like the civil center. I said takeover, we'd go in there with the police's blessing, local, local leader's blessing. Go in there and we, the aim would be to saturate the areas. But when the Taliban started attacking back, we, we didn't have the troops saturate the area because we'd already taken on too many places. We had too few troops dotted around to do any kind of saturation. Now, um, it just became purifying then. Just to survive, basically survive and keep, keep a handle on these areas. Um, very limited to get any supplies in or out. You know, I ended up in a.

• 1:06:47Speaker 04

  I ended up for two months uh in a place called Musakala and it's it's known as the Siege of Musakala. There's been a a few things written and and produced about it documentaries. And for two months you couldn't get in and you couldn't get out. And you know, we we were down to our last rounds of ammunition. We were down to our last, like, uh, our last supplies of food. Um, and and by the time I got out of that place, the rest of three paras all already back in the UK. Cause they couldn't, the RAF wouldn't fly in because if they tried to fly in, they'd get an airframe shot down. Uh, it was just complete lockdown uh on on in that position. That was kind of the worst of it. It was kind of the most famous example of that.

• 1:07:31Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, it wasn't, it was, um, it was, it was, it was, uh, life changing, like, gen- genuine life changing. You know, that that Musakala example, I mean, we we get hit. Five, six, seven, eight times a day. Um, and sometimes it'd be five or 10 minutes, a five or 10 minute contact, you know, battle. Um, other times it'd be hour, hour plus, every day, all day, every day. And uh, and it was the same in Sangin, you know, in Sangin. And Sangin DC, they're quite lucky there where they had the ability to get out the gate. There was a bit of, there was a bit of dead, not dead ground, there was like a buffer zone of open area between the the compound walls, so to speak.

• 1:08:14Speaker 04

  And the green zone. Now, when I say the green zone, I don't mean like Iraq green, I mean, green zone is in green area. Right. Where enemy can hide, because obviously the green zone is known by a lot of people who like serving in Iraq as safe area. Green zone in Afghanistan, to us, means a totally different thing. It means like foliage. It means river, foliage, you know, ditches and irrigation. Um, and in Sangin, they can get out, so you go out on patrol and go out and do um fighting patrols and things and, but they would experience the same thing. Like, every time they go out, they get smashed, they probably get smashed on the way out, they get smashed on the way back in, they get smashed in the compound. Um, and the the casualty rate for that that tour across the battle group was like one in 10, I think it was, like 10%.

• 1:08:59Speaker 04

  It was um, it was pretty, pretty, pretty high. In a, in a 10 day, in a 10 day period, in the first 10 days I was in Musakala. We took uh 55 casualties in that 10 days. Now, um, a big proportion of the, and it was only 88 of us, but we also had. Um Afghan forces in there, there were maybe twenty or thirty of those. So between them and as ADA, fifty odd, fifty odd casualties, three dead in ten days, it was just carnage. Yeah, it was, it was pretty, it was pretty heavy. Um, uh. But there was nothing, the Taliban had locked down. In, in that compound, they, they could, they could literally get to the walls.

• 1:09:42Speaker 04

  Like if you were to, if you were to, if you did like a war, a bit of war training, a bit of war gaming, and you had a map of the town of Musakala, and you were asked to, hey, pick the spot on there which would be most difficult to defend. You'd pick the district centre, because it's like impossible to defend, and that's exactly where we were. Yeah. And we hadn't chosen it, like we hadn't chosen it. So, so months before, um, the, the Afghans had been in there, and one of our, one of our, our Pathfinder platoon units, which is one of our elite, which is one of our elite reconnaissance units, called Pathfinders, they were basically driving past, for want of a better expression, in, in the desert, um, high, on the high ground,

• 1:10:25Speaker 04

  looking into Musakala, just doing some reconnaissance. And at the time, there was a, there was a contact going on, the Afghans were getting, the Afghan police were getting hammered by, uh, by the Taliban. And they, they went into support, um, they went into support, got in there, into the compound, and then couldn't get out because of the, the delay of the land. You know, you could, you could walk, a Taliban fighter could walk to the wall and not be seen. You know, another, another, you could have a sentry up here, high up, and not be seen because it was just, it was just the centre of a, a very, a very dense, very dense built up area. Um, they got in,

• 1:11:02Speaker 04

  and then they struggled to get out, and we put a battle group up in. So the whole battle group did an operation just to create a safe path through the town, so we could take the Pathfinders out and replace them with a you, a Danish unit. Um, which we did as on that, as on that op. Uh, put that, that was just crazy as well. Taliban did not want us to get in there. Um, uh, we put the Danish in, then the Danish got stuck. And, uh, and they took a lot of casualties, and they also had a, had a sniper threat at the time. Um, there was a Taliban sniper who was being pretty effective, um, taking.

• 1:11:47Speaker 04

  People are headshots within the, within the compound. So I got tasked.

• 1:11:51Jack Murphy?

  Was that Danish unit? Uh, was that Armadillo? Or am I thinking of a different one?

• 1:11:57Speaker 04

  Ooh, it rings a bell. I'd have to check on that though.

• 1:11:59Jack Murphy?

  They did, they did a documentary about it. It was a Danish infantry platoon.

• 1:12:04Speaker 04

  Did they? Maybe it was. Maybe it was. I'll have to check on that. Have to check on that. Um. But yeah, I got tasked with going, going in, um, with a, a friend of mine who was my sniper buddy. Working with my pair. I go in with a section, which is eight, eight, with eight infantry guys, so parrots, eight other parrots. And, um, a major and a sergeant major. And we were going to go in because by this point, there was a, a platoon of Royal Irish Regiment in there. Royal, the Royal Irish Regiment were part of our battle group. They were supporting us like additional numbers. And they were stuck in there. So we were going into basically battlefield casualty replacements and they had no sniper capability either.

• 1:12:47Speaker 04

  So we went in there. The Danish ripped out. We went in and it was a helicopter. Dusk, one of the last helicopters that came in, um, dropped us off. And I remember, uh, it was, it was nighttime. Got shown this little room we're sitting in. We were going to be sleeping in. Myself and Jared is my oppo, his name. We were sat next to the ops room and just, uh, a cacophony of noise just outside kicked off. Knew it was a contact, but it was just, it was loud. It seemed like it was coming from everywhere. You know, you're in a building, inside a room when you hear a contact or not, it sounds like it's everywhere anyway, because of the acoustics. And we went, grabbed the weapons, we were running outside. We didn't have a clue of the layout of the compound, didn't know anything. We literally just landed.

• 1:13:33Speaker 04

  And we went bolting outside and it was literally all four sides of, of the place was just erupting. Everyone was getting, the Taliban were bumping all four sides. And it was a complex attack. It was, you know, multiple, multiple flanks, multiple weapon systems. You had, you know, small arms, you had rockets, you had, um, uh, Chinese rockets and RPGs going down. And so we just grabbed the first bit of high ground we could and just started, started shooting in what we could. And it was wild, you had, because you had British in there, who, you know, we were pretty squared away, as in professional soldiers. Like, Paris. And, uh, but you also had the Afghan forces in there who were, you know, they may think they're professional, but they were like crazy.

• 1:14:18Speaker 04

  There was one guy who we learned, you could easily spot him, this, this policeman, you could easily spot him in a contact at night. Because whichever, the sangar he was in was, was the one with all the sparks were flying from. Because the AK forty seven he had had a bent barrel. So you would fire the, you would fire it anyway, it would spark right over.

• 1:14:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, honestly, yeah, yeah. I mean, why not? You can't, you couldn't get a replacement in there.

• 1:14:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:43Speaker 04

  But, you know, that, that, uh, that, you know, that first night was just batshit, and that's how it went on. For the entire thing, like a proper baptism of fire. And the thing is with that is, we'd been in, I'd been in loads of stuff up to that point in that tour, that was like. I went into Mosacari in August, I'd landed in Afghan in March, so I was pretty seasoned by that point in terms of. You know, facing the enemy. And that was, just took it up a whole, a whole other level, whole other. And it's, it's also a different ball game when. You, you were really restricted in what you could do tactically. We didn't have the manpower to even get out the gate. Because if we tried to get out the gate, we'd only have maybe a section or so to get out, unless we took everyone.

• 1:15:26Speaker 04

  From the, from the, uh, from the compounds out, and that means we'd be giving the compounds up to the Taliban, we weren't, that wasn't our mission, we had to hold it. We couldn't go out the gate, it was literally just defend, that's all we could do. And because they could get to the walls, you know, you, you, you, one day you'd be getting a small round of attack from a couple of flanks. Another day you'd be getting grenades thrown over the wall from the mosque, which was just a buy the rubble by this point. Um, it was pretty, it was pretty frantic, it wasn't a nice position to be in. Um, it, it's different dealing with stuff like that when you've got lots of.

• 1:15:59Speaker 04

  Tactics, options at your disposal, uh when you are pretty much at the behest of what the enemy wants to do that day. Right. Is push you in a different mindset, completely different mindset. And also, we didn't know when we were leaving. There was no, you know, there was no, there's no indication of when we were leaving whatsoever. And and I don't know if you know anything about that siege, but wh- what ended up happening was um our a combination of negotiations with our officer in command there, a guy called Adam Jarrett, um Major Adam Jarrett at the time. He was discussing with a local leader who started coming in on behalf of the Taliban. They should try and sort of bring an end to the carnage, because the town was just getting trashed.

• 1:16:45Speaker 04

  There was no civilians there at this point. It was just, it was just Taliban. Apart from one, there was one civilian guy. And he was um an old dude, mad as a box of frogs, walking stick, blind as a bat. And he would, he was living outside the town, must have lived inside of the town at some point, but every day he would walk in, feeling his way up a wall. Regardless of what was going on, what firefights, what anything was going on, he'd feel his way up the wall, he'd get to his little shop, do whatever he needed to do in the shop. He wasn't selling to anyone, because there was no one to buy anything. Do whatever he was doing in the shop, maybe getting supplies, whatever. And then he would like manhandle himself, back out, blind as a bat, every day. And he was the only civilian that would come in. And what happened is the, Adam, um and uh and then outside of that, the, so back in Bastion.

• 1:17:30Speaker 04

  Um, there was more senior conversations going on with senior, senior Taliban. And senior parts of the British military to negotiate a ceasefire. And a ceasefire happened and um the Taliban organised local transport for us, so, you know, local jingly trucks, cattle trucks, Afghan cattle trucks. Completely Afghan drivers. And one morning, a bunch of trucks turned up. Dusk, dawn, dawn, and uh just before dawn, and we jumped onto those trucks and the Taliban extracted us into the desert where a bunch of Chilox were waiting for us. She's nice of them. Just, just so, so um surreal. Yeah.

• 1:18:11Speaker 04

  At the time, didn't think anything, but you know, to, you, you, you, you, the stories of, oh yeah, the, you know, the, the enemy allowed us to leave and saved us. They they sort of kind of got us out. It's like Second World War stuff or Korea or somewhere else. It's not two thousand and six Afghanistan like twenty four century. Yeah. And that's what happened. And when we were actually when we came back, um. When we came back in, we were told, so we got finally got to Cambastia and we were we were brought together and told you won't. This didn't happen. You won't talk about this. Yeah, yeah. And we didn't, you know, even even even a lot of guys in three parrot didn't know about it until much later. Yeah.

• 1:18:53Speaker 04

  Um, and the first I saw that it'd be sort of become public was on Wikipedia two thousand and nine. So it was there about was a color, yeah. Yeah, I I had never heard of that. Yeah.

• 1:19:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's it it's interesting. It's. To me, it it led it lends to the frustration of a lot of G Y veterans. Uh, in terms of especially Afghanistan. I mean, it happened in Iraq, but in especially Afghanistan, they put. A few guys out on these tiny little cops or these little, you know, positions that couldn't really be held. And really, what these positions did, what they did is they served to draw the enemy to them. You know, it's always like we need to deny the enemy this area, but you're not with, you know, with twenty guys, you're not denying anything to anybody.

• 1:19:46Speaker 03

  And and they would leave, you know, allied troops in these positions, these untenable positions. And leadership didn't do anything with that.

• 1:19:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think I think the cause of it in oh six was we just underestimated how. Much effort the Taliban were putting, how annoyed they were of us being there.

• 1:20:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, um, and. I mean, I'd like to ask Tootle, so the Colonel of three powers, a guy called Stuart Tootle, and he's quite well known over here. Uh, uh, as a military.

• 1:20:24Speaker 04

  Expert, tactician, very well respected by us, you know, he led as well, he was the perfect CEO at the time. And, but I'd like to ask him, you know, what, like, why did we go into all those positions? I can't imagine it was his decision. I'd like to think it wasn't his decision.

• 1:20:43Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:44Speaker 04

  You know, I think you'd like to think it was higher up, but I think if we consolidated, to your point now, Dave, if we consolidated on a few, like half the number of positions.

• 1:20:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:55Speaker 04

  You know, that's six months, but then, I don't know, it could have been, could have been time pressure, could have been just get out there, do as much, as much as we can, as quick as we can and we'll deal with it. And it just didn't go like that, because that really set the tempo for the rest of the operation.

• 1:21:06Jack Murphy?

  It also sounds like the expectations when you guys first went in there was that this wasn't going to be what it became, right? That you weren't going to have that level of resistance.

• 1:21:15Speaker 04

  And, and the thing is, is that, the thing is, is that, the other interesting thing is, is that people, people didn't believe us when we came back. When we described it, it was like, which was really frustrating.

• 1:21:29Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:29Speaker 04

  So, they, they, yeah, they didn't believe.

• 1:21:33Jack Murphy?

  Because the, the story at the time was that the war's going well and you're telling something different?

• 1:21:38Speaker 04

  I, no, no, it was because we'd gone, again, we'd gone from a, a military, which very little experience or chance of having a contact with the enemy, to all of a sudden, you've got this unit come back and going, hey, guys, you need to get CVC training, like, get your medics trained up, this is not, it's not child's play anymore. Because one of the things that happens in that, in those low operation tempers as well, is you kind of pay lip service to the training you're doing, or the training you're giving. Especially on the medical front, you do the basics, you do what you're supposed to do, but there's no like emotional investment in it.

• 1:22:19Speaker 04

  And all the lessons you learn from the previous carnage operation, mission, you know, war, Falklands in our case, or Gulf One. You know, you did not carry forward when the operations aren't, tempo isn't high.

• 1:22:32Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:22:32Speaker 04

  So, we had come back and thought, shit, yeah. We need to pay, like, we need to up our game with medical training, for example. First day training, we up our game with other things. Um, ba- basic things. And, uh, and we were trying to, so when we came back, we got, we got asked, some of us got asked to go and be part of the pre-deployment training for the, what would be the third unit going out there. Cause obviously we left, the unit had already come in, which is the Marines or Battle Group. You got asked to go and advise on these things and, and, and, uh, I went on, I did two stints on that. Uh, two different places I went and trained and was part of training for a company, uh, an infantry company from a different unit. A different regiment.

• 1:23:15Speaker 04

  And I also went down to, um, the, a sniper training unit, uh, elsewhere. Um, the sniper training unit, they wouldn't, they wouldn't believe what our weapons, what the weapon system was capable of. We were using an L one one, A three, which was three, three, eight, like A I thing. We were telling them it's capable of much more, what the pamphlet tells you, by the way, like it can go further distances, it's, you know, it's, it's fine. But the, the, the company infantry company was much more, more frustrating. You know, we, we were told, literally told when we, by the permanent staff, we're doing the instructing, like, don't scare them. Don't, don't, be- because the other thing is, it's, these are different kinds of units. There's an advantage to having a selection process.

• 1:24:00Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:00Speaker 04

  Right. Anyone that argues different, argue, argues differently, he's talking absolute nonsense, and they do argue differently. The units who don't have a selection process don't want to believe that having a selection process is better. The reality is having a selection process means you end up with, on average, more resilient, more capable people than either, than a unit. It doesn't, obviously there's exceptions to that rule.

• 1:24:19Jack Murphy?

  And here, here comes Hugh straight out of Afghanistan with a wild look in his eyes.

• 1:24:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, I've, I've, that's. But yeah, no, yeah, yeah, and it wasn't, it was definitely, it was definitely a worry that people go out there with the wrong attitude. You don't want to be going out onto a mission like that.

• 1:24:37Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:24:37Speaker 04

  And being worried about losing your life. You want to be going out on a, on a mission like that and thinking, I am as capable as I can be. I know exactly what I need to do. There's no more training I could do to prepare me for this. I trust the people around me and I trust the unit I'm a part of. So you went in and you were softly, softly.

• 1:24:52Jack Murphy?

  Build their confidence.

• 1:24:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. We were softly, softly. And it was, you know, it was over a couple of weeks, this particular part we were on with them. And it was coming towards the end of their, their beat of training. They were just doing really basic things wrong. Like the officers would, there'd be a battle going on. And, you know, this is training, be a battle going on. And the officers would, they'd want to consult the map and they'd get behind like a, a Land Rover, a soft skin vehicle to consult the map. Because for twenty years, they could do that in training and hide behind a soft skin vehicle, as if that's going to stop around.

• 1:25:27Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:25:27Speaker 04

  They'd look at the map. And we'd come over and go, guys, you can't, you know, if you do this out there, you're, you're literally gonna, you're dead. It's not gonna stop, stop it. And went on and no one was listening. And it got to the, it got to the last day and um and stood up and with the British expression as we ripped it, ripped a new asshole into them. And just told them, you guys need to start switching on. You're not paying any attention. You're not listening to what we're saying. Part of the problem was as well is that the powers, the powers in the UK, we're not that popular amongst other units. Like, for a bunch, for a bunch of different reasons, right? And it's unfounded reasons mainly.

• 1:26:06Jack Murphy?

  An airborne unit being cocky? I don't believe that.

• 1:26:09Speaker 04

  It was pretty arrogant, like, it was pretty, it can be pretty. You know, like I said, we've got these names for the unit.

• 1:26:15Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:26:16Speaker 04

  Looking all well. And I, there was definitely a part of it in people not believing us and that they thought we were sort of inflating it. I'll just build it up like, yeah, with a great, yes, we need to make these stories up. Say, no, no, this is really what happened. You were really going to go out there and as soon as you go on the ground, you're going to get shot up. And if your drills and skills aren't good enough as a team, as a unit, or as an individual, you're probably going to get injured or get someone injured or killed. It's gonna happen. Um, it took, you know, it took a couple of, couple of, couple of uh tours for everyone to realize, hey, it is actually like they said it was. It's, it's, it is that crazy.

• 1:26:59Jack Murphy?

  Um, so you, I mean, this is interesting because, you know, you're going from, you know, being that sort of like cocky young paratrooper to growing into being a professional soldier and like passing these skills on to the younger guys that need this stuff when they get overseas, which I, I think is like a very interesting progression to make.

• 1:27:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, I think, um, yeah, I, I found that actually quite, the command side of it, I found, I was finding it a little bit difficult, not in terms of tactics on, on the operations, so to speak. You know, I, I was not bad. Like modest, modesty kicking in. I wasn't bad, you know, on the ground, not bad at all. Um, but the reality for me in terms of career, my, my career progression, promotion had been rapid, crazy rapid. Um, you normally to be a, to become a section commander, you know, running the, running the team of eight, uh, you looking at eight years, maybe average of about eight years

• 1:28:02Speaker 04

  to get to that position at that point. I did it within three or four. And not, I say I did it, wasn't aiming for it. I just ended up as a, you know, running, running my own, you know, team at that point. And then I became a sergeant within eight, a sergeant's normal.

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• 1:29:46Speaker 04

  Like eleven, twelve years. And it was, it was too quick. You know, I was, I'd cut my teeth in terms of combat, if you like. But I still, I still was dealing with that sort of confidence issue, believe it or not, in terms of handling guys, commanding guys. And it was all to do with like a status thing, social status thing. One of the, one of the things that happens, I don't know if it happens your side of the pond, but when I first joined three parrot, if you got promoted, then you would move units, subunits. So if you, if you got promoted, you'd move from at least move platoons. You go from this platoon to that platoon. But you're

• 1:30:31Speaker 04

  supposed to go from company to companies. You go from a company's strength, whereas it's like hundred forty. You'd move companies. And the reason being is, is you're not all of a sudden being put into a leadership position within your peer group. Because your peer group is still your peer group. It's still your friends. It's still your bucket.

• 1:30:45Jack Murphy?

  They, they will do that in, like in Ranger Regiment, for instance. That's more when you get to the platoon sergeant level. A lot of the squad leaders are kind of homegrown in the element. But when you get to, the, the command has some concerns when like, all three or four of the platoon sergeants in the company are boys that like grew up together that you're creating, you're creating a little mafia.

• 1:31:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's how your killer squads come together.

• 1:31:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. So they, yeah, at that point, they start to, guys get moved around a little bit.

• 1:31:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, so um, uh, yeah, so when I got my first promotion, I ended up staying in, staying in the same, they didn't, they didn't move me. I can't remember why. I was just a nightmare. Like, my social circle was a group of people who were just like alphas. I was not an alpha at that point. I wasn't a, well, who is at any point, really. Um, and I found it really hard, but oh six changed it. I think, thinking about it, oh six changed it. You know, I got a real belief in myself there. You can see, there's not much, there's not much else can give you a bigger, bigger confidence boosters. Going out, doing something tasty, even if one off. You know, for the people out there who've only ever done one, one bit of combat they've been in.

• 1:31:58Speaker 04

  But they've been in, they've done it, they've survived, they did well with their team, they respected, they got through it, achieved the mission. That is like, that is literally can be life changing. That, that oh six tour is basically what true me to I am now. Just, you know, outgoing, confident guy. I was totally different before. Um, and, and I managed over time to pull that into and, and, and help me with the, the command. Element, just confidence command. You know, I wasn't, uh, it was not that I was, um, weak, a weak commander, but I, it was almost like imposter syndrome. You know, it's just like so quick. I'd just gone through the ranks so quick. I was sitting around, you know, I was the equivalent rank to people I was, again, looking up to when I was in training.

• 1:32:41Speaker 04

  In some cases, I was the same rank as people who'd take me through training in some cases. It's like, fucking hell.

• 1:32:48Jack Murphy?

  What, what was the next step for you? I mean, now it sounds like you're section commander, like, uh, it sounds like our version of a squad leader. Uh, what, what, what was the, the next jump for you? I mean, I think you, you did one more trip over to Afghanistan, right?

• 1:33:03Speaker 04

  I did two more.

• 1:33:04Speaker 03

  Two more, okay.

• 1:33:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, so, so I went to snipers no four, oh six, I was a, I was a full screw, what we call a corporal, so yeah, section commander, squad leader. Um, but within snipe, within the snipers, so a sniper team commander. Um, and, and then, uh, oh eight was the next, I went Af- Afghanistan. Oh, two thousand and seven, that year between was a combination of guest instructing on our sniper course. Down in, uh, down again, in southern England, near London. And advising on pre-deployment stuff for other people. Uh, and then two thousand and eight, the start of that, the start of that year was a, a leadership course for me.

• 1:33:47Speaker 04

  Which was do my course for qualify myself to get promoted to sergeant. So that would be in, from a sniper's perspective, that would qualify me to lead the, lead the, um. Lead the, be the, be the, be the sniper to commander, basically. I did that, uh, did that in that earlier and early in, in the year and then deployed out of Afghan. Now, the, the second Afghan tour for me was different, very much different to the first. It was quite good, the whole, the whole of three, I say quite, yeah, it was quite good. The whole of three part, we deployed out to Kandahar at that point. And that was a bit of a culture shock. That's the first time I'd ever been on a big, a camp with.

• 1:34:28Speaker 04

  USA Canadians, just, uh, like one of these huge camps, like Canadians, hockey, you guys must have been there.

• 1:34:35Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, the boardwalk with the Tim Hortons and, yeah.

• 1:34:38Speaker 04

  The boardwalk, you know, I'd just come off, my first experience of Afghan was oh six.

• 1:34:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:34:43Speaker 04

  Camp Bath, you know what the Brits are like, we're pretty tight with our money, like, we're pretty frugal. There's nothing, there's no, there's none of this coffee shop nonsense. And you got a camp and it's like stepping into a, um, what do you call it, what do you guys call it, a mall.

• 1:34:55Speaker 03

  A mall, yeah.

• 1:34:56Jack Murphy?

  It's like a cinnamon on and.

• 1:34:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:58Speaker 04

  Crazy, crazy, so you went there, but the, the ops we were doing were, we were doing strike ops. Uh, so, strike ops for high value targets in southern Afghanistan mainly. So you would spend two or three days in, in camp. Um, uh, what was the name of the camp, camp? Not Camp Suta, I can't remember what it's called. Uh, in camp, then a mission would come up and either a company of us would go out on the mission. And the mission could be, or the whole unit, but it was rare, the whole unit. The mission could be like a day, out snatch and grab, like out, out in the helis, drop into, um, drop into just outside a village, run in, grab the target, get it out. And it was, it was never,

• 1:35:40Speaker 04

  it was always capture, like mainly capture. And capture a kill was quite rare, but then maybe in, get them and get out. And, uh, or sometimes the mission would be, you know, two or three weeks. It would go and be to support a US unit, like a Bagram area or, um, or a British unit elsewhere, or to put a feint in for an SF attack going in somewhere. You know, so we did that for, for the six months there. And that was, that was really, really good. You know, we had guys doing work, um, doing work with, uh, CIA on a couple of, on a couple of missions down near the, um, down near the Pakistan border, I think, you know, just interesting, varied, varied, varied missions, which I really enjoyed. Really enjoyed, gives you different, I mean, we had some really good results as well. And we also got to do some of the tasty stuff we did in ANO6 tour.

• 1:36:25Speaker 04

  We're going in, like I said, we're going to bolster two para. We're out there at that time, um, in Helmand, doing a kind of the equivalent tour we'd done in O6. And they were having some real, real, there was some real tasty places. And we went into a couple of their spots and bolstered them and basically got to get, give them a bit of a rest and going and do some, going to some areas they weren't able to reach purely because of resources and, and, and then the state of their troops, basically. Yeah, we were, we were fresher and, uh, had some great results in there. Um, that was the first time actually I came across a Taliban fighter in a uniform. As in, it wasn't police uniform, it was his own, it was his own uniform.

• 1:37:03Jack Murphy?

  It, it sounds like this is kind of like a deployment where you're really moving on to sort of like, oh, what's the term I want to use, but more, more like special operations than infantry?

• 1:37:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, definitely. And that's, yeah, yeah, definitely. And that was quite, um,

• 1:37:19Speaker 04

  Quite rare, quite rare at that point for us, for the regiment anyway. One power we're doing, um, one power, I think we're already in the special forces support group role. So they were doing sort of stuff with, with SF and, and our guys, so our guys rotate between, we've got three battalions, main battalion, one, one power, two power and three power. And so you change between the battalions. So we had guys who go off to one power, part of special forces support group, then come back. And it's just a, that's the, that's to make sure there's, you don't have skill fade in any particular area. Cause you've got a special forces support group, one power. And you know, you do very little conventional stuff. You do a lot of SF orientated stuff, training wise and mission wise. And so, um,

• 1:38:02Speaker 04

  and so we would chop and change betweens to make sure the skills aren't lost. And you, and you, and you, and you're sharing knowledge between the units as well. So that was quite unheard of for, for us at that point. But it was, yeah, it was good. It was, um, it was, uh, it was refreshing to have such specific, defined

• 1:38:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:38:22Speaker 04

  team-bound missions.

• 1:38:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:24Speaker 04

  Not like, are you here for six months?

• 1:38:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:29Speaker 03

  It, it also must have felt good to go on the offence after your last tour.

• 1:38:35Speaker 04

  Oh yeah. Oh, definitely. Oh, oh yeah. Yeah. Good point. Yeah. It did for sure. Um, and, uh,

• 1:38:44Speaker 04

  and it was also a variety of, of offensive ops we were doing. Sometimes we'd, you know, we'd go out with vehicles and be laid up in the desert in the Liga for a couple of days and then go patrolling into the green zone and, and, and put a bump in. Other, other times, you know, we'd be dropped off on a heli, caves away. Um, uh, and then going off foot, put an ambush in and then, and then bug out. It was, it was, it was good to be on the offensive side for sure. And, and like I said, we had a lot of, we had a lot of great results, like tangible results. You get feedback, one of the advantages of doing, you know, missions like that is Because uh because intelligence is so much more, you're closer to the, you're sort of closer to the

• 1:39:26Speaker 04

  source of intelligence, right? You're closer to the agencies where you're really on, on, on top of uh where the intelligence has come from and what it can mean. And so we'd often get feedback. So if we captured or killed someone, brought them in, we'd often get feedback a couple of weeks later, like, hey, that guy you brought in or that guy you shot, uh he was actually such and such commander, actually such and such, and you'd probably be like, fucking awesome. You don't get that in normal, normal operations. You know, you just, you just, uh, because you very rarely return in a dead guy.

• 1:39:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:39:57Speaker 04

  To, to uh, to the agencies, you know, especially like in Musakala or in Sangin. You don't, you haven't got time or the inclination to do it. That guy's staying out there and they're gonna, and his friends are gonna sweep him up.

• 1:40:08Speaker 03

  Right. You're not leaving the wire to recover the body. And even if you did, nobody's gonna come collect it. Yeah.

• 1:40:14Speaker 04

  No, exactly. And most of them wouldn't have any actionable intelligence on them anyway.

• 1:40:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:40:19Speaker 04

  You know, it was a reality, it was a reality.

• 1:40:21Jack Murphy?

  Then what was uh the third pump to Afghanistan?

• 1:40:27Speaker 04

  Very similar to the first in terms of, um, you know, occupying patrol, platoon houses, occupying forward operating bases. Uh, and again, it was in Helmand, but the, the, but obviously with so many more troops. I think, I think at that point, we, we had 10,000 in, in country. I think new guys had something like 40,000, maybe, maybe more, I think. So smaller areas, um, you, you have more troops in smaller areas, but because, so that was 2010, 2011 through Christmas that was. But because the public sentiment towards what we were doing out there started to shift slightly, like the public's, the public, the public's appetite over

• 1:41:09Speaker 04

  here for accepting casualties and deaths on a daily basis was really starting to die down. Um, starting to dwindle, uh, you know, a bit like the support for Ukrainians at the minute, it's like this on the diet dying down. So it makes it really hard to, um, the appetite for risk becomes less. And that tour was. He he he was much less conventional, much less sort of small arms attacks from the Taliban. What the Taliban realised early on in two thousand and six and two thousand and seven. So from the first instance of British troops getting out there, it's like, hey, we we may not be able to combat them like this. We're not doing very well, we're getting slaughtered. So they started switching their tactics over to IEDs, indirect attacks. Yeah. Much like, you know, it happened in Iraq and and happened elsewhere. Yeah.

• 1:41:51Speaker 04

  And that's what, that's what it was like in two thousand and ten, two thousand and eleven. They were, they were tend to initiate contacts with small arms. If they were going to have a prolonged contact with small arms, they'd be quite far away, like minimal risk themselves. But it'd almost always been indirect, indirect attack of some sort, be it an IED or something else, multiple IEDs or something else. Yeah. And um, and because of that lack of, that less appetite for risk that the British military had out there. It actually restricted us a lot in terms of what we could do tactically. You know, so there were things like, there was a rule that you weren't allowed to go and put in a, uh, put any form of mission in. Any form of patrol, any form of any action in, which was less than twelve people.

• 1:42:36Speaker 04

  Now, I'm a sniper, like twelve people's a fucking nightmare. Yeah. You don't want to do in that. And and um, and so that immediately restricts your ability to move super silently, to move without being seen, to move without being heard. You know, unless you've got twelve ninjas or twelve snipers, no, no disrespect to people who are snipers, but like we're snipers and we're trained that way for a reason. We're just better at doing that kind of stuff than other people. Right. Um, it makes it real problematic and again, it it it provides more opportunity to enemy to attack. And then you couple that with the the ramp up in protective equipment that we had to wear.

• 1:43:17Speaker 04

  Um, you know, we were really levered down with these massive, massive, which is normal now, but these massive, you know, front plate, massive back plate. Um, our helmets are changed, so on the first, you know, we ran out in two thousand and six, we'd be on like airborne helmets, which were very lightweight. Two thousand and ten, we couldn't do that. In two thousand and six, the reality was, because because of the way the Taliban could move, it's so lightweight, they're dish dashes, right? They got they got a few pouches with their mags in and their AK forty seven. They don't need much water, because they live there. They're like accustomed to climate. What we would end up doing a lot of the time on on our offensive operations is, we'd get dropped in, so we'd jump off the helis. And we would take our armour off, and we would cache it. And even then, but at the end, the armour was really light anyway. It was like a flak jacket, for want of a better word.

• 1:44:01Speaker 04

  And then a small chest plate, you know, maybe, I don't know, eight inches by four, maybe nine inches by by four inches. In in shape, cover your heart, and one on your back to cover your heart from the rear. We would ditch those and just put them in a pile. And we were going with no body armour. And we'd have our helmets and we'd clip into our weapon, because we could move faster. And so was the advantage of being able to move fast outweighed the disadvantage of having no armour. You're less likely to get shot if you can get shot, if you can move quick. You know, if you can move as quick as the enemy. Fast forward to two thousand and ten, two thousand and eleven, you wouldn't be allowed to take your armour off. It was like, no, not allowed to do it. No helmet off. And and as as snipers, the the kind of equipment we issued, you couldn't even get into a a decent fire position, or like a a prone fire position.

• 1:44:45Speaker 04

  Because of the armour would raise your chest up, the helmet would hit the back of your arm on the head and push forward. You couldn't get your help to look through the scope. It's a nightmare. Again, these are, I think these are just, I don't know if you guys experienced the same thing, or your your guys experienced the same thing. You know, it's very frustrating. But how how do you explain to the the mother or father of a dead of a dead kid? That, um, you know, le- less armour is better.

• 1:45:10Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:45:11Speaker 04

  When maybe, you know, I went into a I went into an inquest after the first tour. When we came back, an inquest to a a couple of guys who'd died. Um, they'd been a direct hit with a mortar. And and they were just peppered, obviously. And the mother was there. And one of the questions she asked of the M O, the Ministry of Defence representative is like, why can't, why aren't you able to issue body armour that covers the entire body?

• 1:45:40Speaker 04

  You know, like, I know the answer to that.

• 1:45:42Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:45:43Speaker 04

  The answer is obvious to anyone who's rational thought, but not to the mother of a dead kid.

• 1:45:46Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:45:47Speaker 04

  You know, you know what I mean?

• 1:45:48Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:45:49Speaker 04

  So it really, it really happened things. Um, which ultimately I think is, you know, one of the reasons our footprint was a lot smaller. You know, you could put loads of troops in an area, your footprint is a lot smaller, the Taliban have more confidence. We had loads of eyes to our assets, you know, we had loads of eyes in the ground and things, but very, you need, you need boots on the ground to have any form of influence. And in reality, on those, you know, counter insurgency operations, as you guys know,

• 1:46:16Speaker 04

  one part of it is killing the enemy. The second part of it is winning over the locals.

• 1:46:20Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:20Speaker 04

  Demonstrating why we are here.

• 1:46:22Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:46:22Speaker 04

  You know, you've got to go over and you need boots on the ground to do that and safe boots on the ground. And it was difficult for us to, to do it. Um, plus Afghanistan, the winter is miserable.

• 1:46:32Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:32Speaker 04

  My God.

• 1:46:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. So coming back from that tour, talk to us a little bit about like, you know, where in your head is at, uh, at the time. Uh, you're kind of, you, like you said, you moved along quite quickly in the paras. Um, how did you see kind of your future prospects at this time? What, what was your decision making process like?

• 1:46:54Speaker 04

  Uh, I wanted, so one of the things we have to do, we're supposed to do before, certainly before you get promoted to a corporal. So you're at, uh, a squad leader or like a platoon sergeant, if you're supposed to go and do a, we call it an E posting, external posting. It's supposed to go and do basically the common one is go and be an instructor somewhere for two years. Just, you know, so it's basically to me, it's basically to try and reduce the chance of someone getting promoted up to the ranks because his mates high up. He's got mates and, and, and this guy is actually useless to get promoted, sort of to validate. Hey, this guy's being externally audited, if you like.

• 1:47:30Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:47:31Speaker 04

  You know, it's that's, that's what it is. I didn't have to do that. I, because the operate, because the operational tempo, what I was doing, like I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't go anywhere. Um, which I'm glad of because I would have missed the, the fear of missing out would have been extreme for any of these, uh, any of these operations. But I, I knew I was going to have to do one because they wanted me to, they being the career people in the unit. Wanted me to, um, go to Sandhurst as an instructor and instruct young officers, so bring the young officers up. And that's quite a prestigious. Post it, like you go there if you get, you get, you get told to go to Sandhurst if

• 1:48:11Speaker 04

  your career projection is high, like you're gonna go all the way, you're gonna be a regimental sergeant major of one of the units, basically. They think that's the case, it's not guaranteed, but you go to Sandhurst to do that. I didn't, I didn't wanna go to Sandhurst. Um, I wanna go to Brecon, uh, Brecon, like I mentioned earlier, in Wales is where, is our infantry battle school. It's cold, it's miserable, it's horrible, it's where you, it's where you send soldiers um, to go to learn how to be technicians, how to think under pressure, how to perform under pressure physically and mentally in one of the most disgusting places on, in the UK, you know, in terms of environment and weather and terrain.

• 1:48:52Speaker 04

  Uh, Mid Wales, glorious country. Um, I wanted to go there because Sandhurst was, you know, you're teaching a lot of drill. You're teaching a lot of, you're teaching basically new recruits, all the military officers, how to pull their boots, you know, polish their boots and iron the uniform. You're doing all the other stuff, like teaching them tactics and all the rest of it, but I only wanted to teach that stuff. Yeah. And I only wanted to teach it to the actual guys, actually, you know, young guys like I was, who were not officers. Who were the guys who make everything work, you know, um, but they didn't want me to do that. So we had a fall. I ended up leaving after, after the, the third tour.

• 1:49:32Speaker 04

  Um, and I think I'm happy about that. I mean, I wouldn't be here now talking to you guys if I wasn't. Uh, um, but yeah, that's, that's, that's what happened there. The, the, I became, I got pretty bitter about it because I, I sort of, I'd not put up a fight about anything. I, I'd done everything that was asked of me up to that point, you know, but my, my, my, my operational tempo throughout my career had been high, non-stop, you know, from two thousand and one, that first Northern Ireland tour, all the way through two thousand and eleven, non-stop. My feet hadn't touched the ground and, um, and I'd performed well, not grumbled about anything. And then the one thing I asked for and they said no, and I got very upset. Very bitter, very quickly. But the thing is at the time is that we knew that.

• 1:50:18Speaker 04

  Three Power knew that we weren't going back to Afghanistan. It was the end of it for us because it was all dying off and the rotations, we weren't on that roster. There was like another four or five rotations to go and we weren't going to be on it. So, and there was nothing else on the horizon. So the prospect of staying in and basically being, you know, like one of those old grumpy guys that had been there when I turned up in two thousand and ten. We'd done nothing, you know, or bitter because they were in the Falklands and had done nothing since. I was angry about that. You know, the prospect of being that and being basically a camp soldier, you know, a barrack soldier was not exciting and the circuit was kicking off at the time. You know, I think, Dave, you mentioned you were a contractor.

• 1:51:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:03Speaker 04

  So, time, since oh six actually, since two thousand and six for us from Three Power. Once people had done what they wanted to do and satisfied themselves with combat in the military. A lot of the guys at oh six taught from Three Power, they left and they went onto the circuit because the circuit in Iraq was booming, you know, private security was booming since oh one, oh two. Oh, uh, oh, sorry, oh three, sorry, onwards was booming. And there's a lot of money to be made.

• 1:51:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:34Speaker 04

  So those guys, those guys went, um, and I did the same thing after, after two thousand and eleven out there, earned a lot of money. Um, that was the plan, earn a lot of money and sort of get to do cool things. Um, but just, you know, getting paid more.

• 1:51:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:50Speaker 04

  That's what I did. Didn't, wasn't quite as, wasn't, I was looking at it through rose tinted spectacles.

• 1:51:56Jack Murphy?

  How, how did it go in actuality?

• 1:52:01Speaker 04

  Well, you know what private security deals are, um, yeah, first of all, private security deals are like out in, out in, out in the oil fields out in Iraq and other places. It's basically a glorified taxi service for the most part.

• 1:52:12Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:13Speaker 04

  Um, so, uh, yeah, that's what I did, you know, armored vehicles, carrying oil workers around different parts of the area. It was a bit, it was a bit surreal because we were, we were working in an area that I'd been in two thousand and three in trenches and the trenches were still there, you know, Ramallah, Rishon, place like this. So that was a bit weird. And flash, fast forward to, that would have been twenty, twenty eleven, late twenty eleven, I started there. And Iraq hadn't changed much for the better since we went in, in two thousand and three. Now, that's a bit of a common theme in other places, right? Definitely haven't changed much. But then Iraq's a pretty, a particular place. It's not, I don't know, it's, it's an odd, it's

• 1:52:55Speaker 04

  an odd place. It's almost like they don't want to evolve that much. I don't think, I think they're quite happy the way it is.

• 1:53:01Speaker 03

  Middle, Middle Eastern politics are extremely frustrating, to say the least.

• 1:53:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, true. Yeah, true. And, and, and frustrate even more countries like Iraq where the politics don't seem to pervade outside of the capital city.

• 1:53:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah.

• 1:53:16Speaker 04

  And Afghan even more so.

• 1:53:18Speaker 03

  Afghan even more so, right. Nobody cares what's going on in Kabul. It's not, it's not their tribe, it's not their village.

• 1:53:24Speaker 04

  You're, oh, exactly. And this is, this is, this is, I mean, this is, this is a good point. If this goes back to some of the frustrations we had on the, on the third time we went out there. Um, the third time I was doing a sort of dual role of, um, like a low, uh, like a in, intelligence officer role, but on a subunit. So part of the company, part of a, part of a company. And also, um, in a sniper role there on the offensive operations that we did. And so I got to sit in on a lot of the shooters, the meetings with the key leaders, you know, um, by that point, they, they, they were just, they were just saying the words that they think

• 1:54:08Speaker 04

  we wanted to, you know, and we knew that someone over Taliban, we knew there was all, we knew they were playing both sides. And they knew we knew and we couldn't know anything about it. And the reality is they, they knew we were going to leave. They just, they're just marching time. They're just, they're just, they're just plodding along until, until the Taliban come back in. It's a real.

• 1:54:33Speaker 04

  They said it's stuck between a rock and a hard place, right? They know the Taliban's gonna come in. They know we're there. We know they don't want us to like the Taliban or help the Taliban. We don't want them to help the Taliban. But so they had to be seen to be helping us while not pissing off the Taliban.

• 1:54:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:54:47Speaker 04

  Because you're gonna be got. So, um, and, and back to the, you know, the point that brought this up is that it doesn't impact a life that much.

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• 1:56:25Speaker 04

  Touch who is in charge. You still get the ten, this is away from like Kabul, away from Lashgar, kind of in the sticks, the farmers, the rural areas. You know, the, um, the, uh, the Bedouin.

• 1:56:39Speaker 04

  Their life's the same, whether it's British, you can call it patrolling, or the Taliban, you know, their life's the same.

• 1:56:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:56:44Speaker 04

  I think for the most part, and probably it's more, probably they would perceive it as more um structured and predictable and understandable under the Taliban. Because that's who they've known for longer. They understand Sharia law and all the other things. They they know them better than they know us. Um.

• 1:57:04Speaker 04

  They play the long game, right?

• 1:57:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:57:06Speaker 04

  I mean, it's it's kind of, it's not for straight into talk about it like this, because I don't want to make it sound like, oh, what was the point of any of it? You know, it's uh, it's um, but it it kind of, it puts it into perspective and you see them, when you when you leave like that, ignoring the their evacuation, what, three, four, what was it now, four years ago? It puts into perspective when they move so easily back under the Taliban, which is just carry on as normal jogging. It's just like, take, take out the leader, put this leader in. This structure, governance structure, it's fine. They don't change anything.

• 1:57:42Speaker 03

  And there's, there's very much a, like a fatalistic

• 1:57:48Speaker 03

  uh tenor or whatever to, like, a lot of these Islamic countries where if a strong man is ruling, it's probably because the strong man deserves to rule. Like, you don't have these these ideas of like individual liberty and and things like that. They they they just don't stand up for it often.

• 1:58:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. So it's like, okay, yeah, so, all right, so we going in and we need to um improve X country, uh because their standards of living and what we expect them to be like don't match up with ours. Okay, but how do they match up to their expectations?

• 1:58:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:58:26Speaker 04

  Because by their expectations, they're totally fine.

• 1:58:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:58:29Speaker 04

  No, it's like the the tribe in the Amazon who don't have smartphones, they don't have bricks, they don't have bicycles. They're not bothered, because that's how they live and they they're quite happy. They don't know any different. Even when you introduce something different, they're not, they don't like it. It's kind of the same, and the standards are very different. Same with, you know, again, Afghanistan, as you pointed out there. That what what is right and what is wrong. Is different based on your perspective and what you're understanding and what the culture is built on foundationally historically.

• 1:59:00Jack Murphy?

  So you uh did the contractor circuit for a little while and where are you at today? What are you up to nowadays?

• 1:59:09Speaker 04

  Uh I uh I manage well, I sorry, I do HR, which is which started out as a hobby, the podcast started off as a hobby, but now it's like a second job. Really, a second job doesn't doesn't earn for me, but it's one I can't step away from because it's it's just so valuable. Um for a million different other reasons, but I work for um I work for a global satcoms company. I do um I do service delivery for um for uh government, government customers. Satcoms company, which is interesting in itself.

• 1:59:42Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:59:43Speaker 04

  Yes, in itself, and it's also strange because I was never a comms guy when I was in. Uh because I can't work out how I ended up in a satcoms company, but you know, I'm here, I'm enjoying it. But um yeah, so that's my day job, but that is very much an enabler for HR. You know, and a few other things I do on the side, which is all, you know, veteran oriented. But um yeah, that's what I do. I um I think like you guys, I try and I try and do an episode a week at least, at least.

• 2:00:10Jack Murphy?

  How did how did how did HR come about? How'd that idea germinate in your mind and come into fruition?

• 2:00:18Speaker 04

  I, all right, so in a nutshell, I went through a, when I I left, I wasn't in a great place mentally. I didn't know at the time, and I basically went through a number of years of um tough times. For various reasons, one of which was like a mental health, and that created all sorts of other problems, work problems, just all sorts of things. A transition, my transition from the military into the civilian world was not smooth. It's not smooth for anyone, but mine was over a long time not smooth. It took ages and for a bunch of different things. I learned a lot of stuff along the way. And and I I got pretty, pretty low mentally, like as low as you'd wanna get mentally, or as you wouldn't, you wouldn't wanna get mentally. And I I didn't want other people to go through the same thing, basically.

• 2:01:03Speaker 04

  But at the time, I'd been listening to a a very popular podcast by Mr. Rogan. Um, and and like you guys, you know, interviewing, when you're listening to someone interview people from different walks of life and backgrounds and countries and perspectives, then you kind of, you tend to pick something up from each one, a little bit of information, knowledge, and I think it arms you a little bit. It's all great, picking up these little tidbits that can help you at an unexpected time in your life. So I basically wanted to communicate what I'd learned. I wanted to avoid my old friends um, and people I don't know behind me going through the same situation that I'd gone through. Yeah. Little things like stuff I'd learned about the circuit, stuff I'd learned about mental health, stuff I'd learned about,

• 2:01:48Speaker 04

  um, you know, uh, uh, getting by in the civilian world generally. Um, and so I started the podcast up for that reason. Basically, chat to people, have a conversation with people I'm interested in. And, uh, I, I, I committed to myself. I, I started out with a, I mentioned a guy earlier called Jared. It was my sniper buddy. He did the first ten episodes with me. Um, and started out with a commitment that if I'm gonna interview people and they're gonna have these conversations about these subjects, and I need to be on an open book, otherwise it's pointless doing it. I've got, everything's gotta be out there. And be honest about my own experiences and what I think about things. And, and, uh, so that's why I did it, to try and, uh, communicate useful information to people without sounding like a preacher.

• 2:02:33Speaker 04

  You know, if I walked into three para, so I started the podcast in twenty eighteen, if I walk into three para lie, three para line, three para barracks, for example, and said, hey, guys, um.

• 2:02:45Speaker 04

  If you try meditation, I get beaten up, kicked off, back then, beaten up, kicked off camp, never come back. The fuck is this going on about? Whereas if you bring it up in a conversation in a, in a, in a decent context with someone else who's of a similar background, then it's totally fine. As an example, you know, you know, you know the score. Um, that's why try and get information to people that is useful, basically. But it's got, it's gone into something much more than that. Um, you know, he's brought this about. So, you know, one of the reasons I know about Team Houses from one of your patrons, a guy called Coke, he was a British guy. Yeah. And he's, he's also, he's also one of my patrons and, and I find that, um,

• 2:03:24Speaker 04

  you know, if I hadn't started my podcast, I wouldn't be just introduced to you guys and having these conversations with you guys and learning about, learning about what you do and, and your side of the pond. And also, I think it's huge value in, um, spending time talking, actually actively listening to talking because there's so much that I pro, even, you know, the questions you fired at me today, there's so much that it makes me process. And I'll continue thinking about over the next couple of days about what I think about things and why I think them. You know, which I think it's, it's an invaluable thing that most people don't get to do these days. How often do we get to sit down and talk, actually talk to someone and listen to someone for an hour, two hours at a time? No one does it. No one does it.

• 2:04:06Jack Murphy?

  I, my, my hope is that, you know, for a lot of the guys, a lot of the veterans out there that are able to connect with, you know, a show like H Hour or the Team House. And it sort of gives them a little bit of that connectivity, you know, that they, they don't feel totally isolated or alone.

• 2:04:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, true. That's, I mean, that's one of, it's one of the, I think it's one of the reasons that a lot of people struggle, max military struggle when they leave. Is that we incorrectly think that we are the only person going through what we've gone through, or one of very few. And the reality is, the unfortunate reality is that most or many, many people go through it. And especially with guys, I'm concerned, we just, you know, we're just useless at talking about feelings and, and rightly so in a lot of cases, I understand it. But the, but the worst thing in the world when you're military, right, is to be isolated. Like I was talking. You were isolated, it was fucking horrific. I never want to go through that again. And, and the reality is that um we got another buddy buddy system. We've got mutual support everywhere.

• 2:05:05Speaker 04

  There are people within our networks who we know or don't know, who have been through the same thing that can offer advice. They're ahead of us on the track. They've been through the shit that you you can do now and they can help you. But if they don't know about it, they can't.

• 2:05:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, isolation is not a good thing, you know, and and even with the distance, you know, with the best, with the best.

• 2:05:27Speaker 04

  We'll step up for each other, whether we know each other or not.

• 2:05:30Speaker 03

  You know, I think it's also like very valuable to normalize the talk about, you know, the post traumatic stress, about, you know, the challenges of becoming a civilian again. Like, it's good to normalize that because I think, I think most of us, when we go through that, we think that we are alone in that struggle and we wonder what's wrong with us. And so what do we do? We do what we've been trained to do, which is to tighten up the rucks track. You know, uh, the uh, rucksack, put our heads down and keep trying to put one foot in front of the other. And a lot of times, that's not the solution.

• 2:06:08Speaker 04

  No, and it also also invites an attitude that, uh, let's say, you know, talk about post traumatic stress and also and the symptoms associated. It also invites an attitude that it's something that is chronic and cannot be improved or cured, which most people think is the case and it is absolutely not the case.

• 2:06:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:06:24Speaker 04

  Now, there's a, I've had, uh, there's a few people I get to the podcast, a few people I've been very lucky to speak to. And one of them's an American guy, uh, a true American guy, actually, one's guy, guy called Dr. Mark Gordon. Um, I don't know if you've heard of him, but I know he's working with a few of your special forces units over there. Um, and he is basically one of the the world leading researcher on, uh, on neuroendocrinology, so brain hormones, uh, adjusting neuroendocrinology to combat the symptoms of PTSD. So, um, we're right now, all of the the main focus on reducing the symptoms of PTSD and preventing PTSD is all on, it's all psychology.

• 2:07:07Speaker 04

  And the sort of the physical side of it, the physiological side of it is missed. So what Mark has found is that, so let's talk about preparing, let's talk about reducing the likelihood of developing PTSD. So what Mark, what Mark does with a bunch of SF units in the USA, I know he's been engaged with a couple of SF units back here, is preemptively supplementing guys and girls, as it literally supplements, which produce certain brain hormones, which are susceptible to getting drastically impacted in like blast injuries, not blast injury, but in blast, in repeated

• 2:07:52Speaker 04

  trauma, repeated battles, layer upon layer. So SF units, SF guys, operators who are doing a lot of work, he administers them these hormones, which are naturally got them in your body anyway. So when they do go into a contact, when you go into an extreme situation and come out and survive the other side, gets them back in, checks the baseline for the hormones, bumps up again what's, what's, what is deficient. And then it basically drastically reduces the likelihood of developing post-traumatic

• 2:08:24Speaker 03

  That's amazing.

• 2:08:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, like incredible, because, because it just, you, you've got the resiliency you can build in people like that just through training and your rigorous training and physical and mental. And then this additional element, the physiological element is incredible. And you can do the same with treatment of PTSD. So there's an, there's an, actually, there's an amazing American documentary, a film called, I think it's called Quiet Explosions. Mark Gordon features in it, there's a, there's a Green Beret features in it, there's a US Navy lady features in it and an American football player. And all these people exhibit symptoms of PTSD and they they've all basically got traumatic brain injuries. Now, the interesting thing is that three of them, so there's four of them,

• 2:09:09Speaker 04

  three of them have got traumatic brain injuries from blast or concussion. So obviously the American football player, you've got the you've got the Green Beret who's basically, you know, getting his head blown out by breaching, breaching charges. The Navy lady has got the same symptoms. She got acute PTSD, but she has never been around weapon systems. She's never been in blast, anything like this. The Navy lady was raped. She was raped on a service vessel, but the trauma of the rape produced exactly the same symptoms, traumatic brain injuries as everyone else. Now, these people have been treated with, again, supplementation, neuroendocrinology,

• 2:09:53Speaker 04

  neuroendocrinological supplementation, checking which hormones are deficient, bumping them up, and then seeing which PTSD symptoms remain after that, baseline the physiological side, and then implement the psychological treatment if needs be. So it's because up to this point, it's kind of like me, this physiological side has been completely ignored, we've paid attention to it. So, how do we get on to that? Oh, the PTSD. So my point on that is, you know, there is this, I don't know about over there, but here, there is a definite, so some guys and girls who have PTSD, they can they can sort of fall victim to the victim mentality,

• 2:10:33Speaker 04

  and kind of be their own barrier to improve it. Or they can misunderstand that it doesn't, it's not necessarily a chronic condition. I think that's changing slowly, but it needs to be much, much quicker.

• 2:10:45Speaker 03

  So you said the doc, I I took this notes on my phone. You said that the documentary was called Quiet Explosions?

• 2:10:51Speaker 04

  I think it's Quiet Explosions, yeah.

• 2:10:53Speaker 03

  And the doctor's name is Mark Gold?

• 2:10:55Speaker 04

  Mark Gordon.

• 2:10:57Speaker 03

  Gordon, okay.

• 2:10:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, Mark Gordon, yeah.

• 2:10:59Jack Murphy?

  Do we have questions for Hugh?

• 2:11:02Speaker 03

  We do.

• 2:11:06Speaker 03

  Hugh stated that he was beat in training. Oh, thank you very much, Solly, one, two, three, four, all-wheel drive to AWD2. Thank you. Hugh stated he was beaten in training, unit life, and approves for discipline. Does this happen in the Rangers, Green Berets? If so, do you approve?

• 2:11:27Jack Murphy?

  In Ranger indoctrination, there may have been some physical correction issued. That may have happened. It's not common, like corporal punishment isn't common. I don't want to give anyone that impression that like it's a normal thing. In special forces, no. I mean, what you'll find like is if like two guys are really butting heads and they might decide to take it to the wood line, so to speak.

• 2:11:53Speaker 03

  They'll call Thunderdome.

• 2:11:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, but that's a little bit different than like, you know, a squad leader taking a private wall to wall, slamming him in a wall lockers, you know, that kind of things. I think that's mostly a thing of the past now.

• 2:12:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. When I was in Marine boot camp, it was not unheard of, but this is back in

• 2:12:13Speaker 03

  89, but it was not uncommon for a drill instructor to like maybe do a little wall to wall if they felt it was necessary.

• 2:12:25Jack Murphy?

  That's pretty times called for desperate measures.

• 2:12:28Speaker 03

  Since then, I haven't really seen it.

• 2:12:33Speaker 03

  Like, you know, you have, you have, you have like the hazing or the scuffing up, like they'll scuff up the privates in Ranger Battalion, or they did. And this, again, this 97, it might be different now, but they would definitely, you know, find fun and sweaty activities for, for, for junior enlisted who maybe lost their firing pin or whatever.

• 2:12:59Speaker 03

  But yeah.

• 2:13:02Speaker 03

  So like, thank you very much. There are serving female officers in the paras. How much fitter do they have to be than the soldiers? Is fitness for the para officers comparable to SAS officers?

• 2:13:17Speaker 04

  Good question. Is, no, the fitness levels are different. So, so that's what was on the females a minute. The females are in the paras, so they've only, they've only, you know, it's quite recently they've, they've got there, but they do. Those females would do the same selection, the same physical selection process as their male officer counterparts.

• 2:13:46Speaker 04

  But that selection process is slightly different to as enlisted selection processes is slight differences. But they do the same as the males, so the fitness is the same. And then officer fitness levels comparable to SAS officer, no different. I mean, again, I'm generalizing here, but different because the SAS selection fitness levels are so much higher requirement than what they are with the with the powers. I say physical so much higher. The biggest barrier to get into SF over here, special forces over here, selection wise is you know, the likelihood of getting injured. It's almost like you

• 2:14:27Speaker 04

  yeah, you're likely to get injured. You can get to it, you get to a point where you only need to be so fit to pass all the selection tests. But your body needs to be literally strong enough just to not get hammered and develop a stress fracture or roll an ankle or break a bone, you know. But no, they're different, not they're not comparable officer in the powers and they're not far apart. They're not, they're not equal.

• 2:14:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. Sully, thank you very much. What, oh, sorry.

• 2:15:01Speaker 03

  Why is this? Sorry, I have something popping up. Okay. How good were the enemy and the GWAT? Did they have units comparable to UK, US special forces and infantry?

• 2:15:14Speaker 04

  How good were the enemy in what, sorry?

• 2:15:16Speaker 03

  In the GWAT, in the global war on terror in Iraq and Africa.

• 2:15:19Speaker 04

  Oh, sorry, on the GWAT, okay. Oh, how good were the enemy?

• 2:15:27Speaker 04

  Relative to what? Depending on where you were, depending on where you were and what time you served. I think, yeah, where you were and when.

• 2:15:38Speaker 04

  You compare one of them to, if you compare the individual like Taliban fighter, for example, to an individual British soldier, then not comparable at all in terms of professional soldier and skills. There's no comparison. We're heads and tails above them. The reason that they were so challenging to fight is because you were fighting them on the wrong turf. And again, I alluded to some of the restrictions that we had in Azizia. We had to, we were much heavier to move around. And

• 2:16:12Speaker 04

  And um yeah, they were just more, they were mainly, they're more agile, they knew the terrain and they weren't wearing uniforms, they weren't easily identifiable. And they also knew they could play the long game whereas we were playing the short game.

• 2:16:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:26Speaker 04

  Cunning, very, very, very cunning fighters. That was, that was in Afghanistan anyway.

• 2:16:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:32Speaker 04

  And, and a lot of the time we were even fighting Afghans, you know, we killed, we killed a couple of people one time and they were, they were Pakistanis. They were there fighting for Taliban.

• 2:16:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:40Speaker 04

  Just different, different place.

• 2:16:42Speaker 03

  And, and the second part of that, did they have units comparable to the UK, US SF and M3? And it's, no, they didn't really have units. They just had a bunch of guys that would come together.

• 2:16:55Speaker 03

  Uh, Sully, thank you much. Um, how good were your military leaders? Did you have, uh, did you or have you, uh, did you have your versions of Rommel, I guess?

• 2:17:09Speaker 04

  Well, when I was serving, yeah, I think, I think I mentioned a guy called Stuart Tootle earlier. Um, and, and he's, he's quite famous over here. I say famous, relatively speaking. And there's another guy called Tim, well Colonel Tim, oh, I can't remember his surname, so he's not, he's, he's relatively famous. Tim, Tim gave a, a famous speech on, on the eve of the Iraq invasion. Allegedly it was that Bush had it up on his wall, uh, as in your president Bush had it up on his wall in, in the White House for some time, but, uh, Tootle, I think, Tootle was,

• 2:17:49Speaker 04

  he was one of those commanders who, outside of an operation gone, you, you, you would strike, he was average, just another officer. Um, and in fact, we had another officer at the same time who was pretty much quite disliked, who was junior to Tootle. But you get, when operations and missions like this happen, exceptional things go on. You get unexpectedly, you get these like heroes emerge from, from, from the group of whatever, you know, from the organisation. And the unexpected to become the perfect person at the perfect time for the perfect operation. And Tootle was that for that time. And interestingly with Tootle, his, his, his regimental sergeant major, he's like right hand man.

• 2:18:34Speaker 04

  Was also not liked, well, Tootle was like, but his RSM was not liked at all before the 2006 tour, not liked, as in despised. However, the pair of them together on that tour, they were perfect. The personalities were perfect. The way Tootle commanded was perfect. The, the way the RSM was was just perfect for what was going on. Like anyone else, I think it would have been a very different kettle of fish. We would have had more casualties, more deaths.

• 2:18:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:18:59Speaker 04

  We wouldn't achieve what we did, but they were perfect. So Tootle, like I said on that, yeah, he was our Rommel.

• 2:19:05Speaker 03

  Um, Soli, thank you very much. Did you guys ever refuse an order during combat or ever hear this? Hugh said he refused, uh, Hugh said he refused to shoot an enemy and are you with his commander over this?

• 2:19:19Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, that's not, yeah, so I didn't refuse to shoot an enemy. I would not, I would maybe not have done that. So the situation, uh, that situation Soli's referring to is, um. We were on high ground, uh, in, it was in Afghanistan. Uh, my team was on high ground. We were, we were extracting. We were with another team. Actually, that was a joint, that was a joint mission with a US unit, actually. And we were extracting, we heard helicopters come in and I thought I spotted, so maybe eight hundred metres away, nine hundred metres away. I thought I spotted what we would call a dicker. Uh, I thought I spotted a, um, a local or a member of the Taliban giving signals with a mirror.

• 2:20:01Speaker 04

  Um, basically signaling where we were or something was going on to other, to the Taliban, uh, other people. Um, I wasn't a hundred percent. Um, I was pretty sure he was signaling. This was a person, you know, a fighting age male, but on the younger, on the younger side, I'd say maybe 12, 13 years old. And I reported this because I was there and I reported, I say reported it back, I was talking because the team were behind me, I was talking it back and the commander of the other team, that was, well, it wasn't a sniper team, the other team that was with us,

• 2:20:36Speaker 04

  told me to shoot, told me to shoot the guy, shoot the kid, I should say. Well, I, I said no. He was, he was senior to me, but he wasn't my direct chain of command. And I, I said, that's the situation, uh, Solly's referred to. I said no to that.

• 2:20:52Speaker 04

  I wasn't a hundred percent, you know, and could I have killed him, got away with it? Yeah, is that the right thing to do? No, would I be sitting here, you were talking about regrets, Dave, at the start of this? I would absolutely, something I'd absolutely regret. So it was the wrong, it was the wrong, it would have been the wrong decision to do it. Now, question was, did I ever see anyone else doing anything of that? No, I didn't, I didn't see anyone else doing anything like that. So, uh, refu- refusing an order to shoot someone is pretty rare, it's pretty rare to receive an order to shoot someone, like, very rare. I, I've been told it once and I've given the order once.

• 2:21:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:21:30Speaker 04

  Apart from that, it's mostly reactive, like, see the enemy shooting dead within the rules of engagement. So it's pretty rare, so I didn't see that often, of, of anyone else.

• 2:21:40Speaker 03

  Thanks, and if you guys hear our church just started upstairs, so we apologize for any background noise, but, uh, dance along with the tune if you know it.

• 2:21:51Speaker 03

  Sully, thank you. Was ROE given to your units always fair? Hugh said units were using surveillance balloons to which hunt their own during firefights.

• 2:22:03Speaker 04

  Uh, are we always fair? Oh, that's a matter of perspective. I think, uh, fair is an interesting word.

• 2:22:12Speaker 04

  No, I think, I think the ROE were always, almost always, it was too much control. Yeah. And it was too, too much risk, almost always. And I say that because for most of the time when I was in Afghanistan on my first tour, we were operating on four to nine.

• 2:22:31Speaker 05

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• 2:24:00Speaker 04

  Alpha, which we would, you'd sort of colloquially describe that as warfighting ROE. See an enemy, armed enemy, you can kill them. I'm really generalizing here. So if someone's going to pull me apart for, let's say I'm more criminal, right, and I haven't got the Fortune I Alpha in front of me. But it was kind of the most relaxed version. It was really rare for that to be issued. I was on it for most of the time in Afghanistan. In the places I was, other units weren't. Um. To answer the question, no, for the most part, they're not fair. They really hamper us in terms of what we can and can't do. There were some, for most of the, most of the guys and girls in Afghanistan on the second and third tour.

• 2:24:42Speaker 04

  Most of them were on a rule of engagement that said that even if you saw a Taliban fighter with a weapon in his hand, clearly identified as a Taliban fighter with a weapon in his hand, you wouldn't be able to shoot him.

• 2:24:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:24:54Speaker 04

  You were not allowed to do it. You had to wait till that weapon was pointed at you. Then you had to go through a certain procedure before you can pull the trigger on him.

• 2:25:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:25:02Speaker 04

  Um, which is just crazy. It's crazy. And I understand, I understand the reasons for having the ROEs like this. But that, that was a legacy follower, a carryover from Northern Ireland, card alpha for us, as we call that. Rule of engagement was from Northern Ireland. So, not only weren't fair, but the problem is you've got to mitigate for idiots.

• 2:25:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:25:20Speaker 04

  You've got to mitigate for people who are fucking trigger happy. And you've got to mitigate for people who don't understand the rules of engagement or don't have the brain processing power to be able to quickly think through those engagements, whether they're right or wrong, because they endanger themselves mainly. If they don't know when, they kind of can't pull the trigger.

• 2:25:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:25:35Speaker 04

  Um, but it is frustrating for those, for the majority of us who are quite capable of doing it.

• 2:25:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:25:41Speaker 04

  So.

• 2:25:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know, because we've talked to like JTACs who basically had to go through, you know, a, a fifteen page document to call in, you know, to call in a, an airstrike.

• 2:25:52Jack Murphy?

  Oh, you probably had to go through fifteen layers of command at one point.

• 2:25:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, so I think, do you think you or your colleagues are owed anything for your or their service?

• 2:26:05Speaker 04

  No, definitely not. No, not at all. Owe to anything? No. It's nice to get some gratitude sometimes. Mainly, it's nice not, it's nice to not get, um, it's nice to not get it completely ignored. When we returned from Afghanistan in two thousand and six, there was, uh, there was, it was nothing. It was, we made it quite a difficult reintegration.

• 2:26:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:26:26Speaker 04

  So, on late, late tours, when it was kind of numb, what? Afghanistan was like at that point, a unit would come back from Bino Cs for six months. They'd come back and they would have a big service, they get presented the key to the city and all of these formalities and the recognition. And when we came back, we didn't have any of that. And it actually was actually very different for me again, because I came back late, later than everyone else. Three parrot already been back. I was stuck in my Sakala, came back a few weeks later, and I got picked up by a minibus in a, in a commercial airport.

• 2:26:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:26:57Speaker 04

  Because we came, came back in on. Um, so no, I don't think we owed anything at all. And I think it's a mistake to think we owed anything. Should, does that mean that the public shouldn't feel obligated to, um, obligated to be, demonstrate gratitude maybe? Yeah, I think the public should be obligated to do it, or even consider it, not demonstrate it, but actually think, okay, people do a job and they are, they are worthy of our admiration.

• 2:27:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:27:27Speaker 04

  You know, you know, regardless of what you think of, regardless of what you think of what the military is doing in X or Y, Z, different place, be that Israel, be that Ukraine at the moment, be it Syria, be it anywhere else. Um, that's only a small part of it. The reality is that without the military, uh, whichever country and your military, without your military, then your country would not exist. And a stronger country would take it over and you would not be living the life you live now.

• 2:27:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. Hugh, you know, here in the US, like we have the VA, the Veterans Administration, we have the hospitals, who i- i- it's, it's, it can be very inefficient, uh, mired in bureaucracy and, and has its own issues. But it is an organization that is there for the care and treatment of veterans. I know that you guys have your, like, national healthcare, so i- i- is there anything like that for you guys over there? Is there anything that, where, where you are paid specific attention to for, like, post-traumatic stress or the issues the veterans might, might find themselves?

• 2:28:27Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, there are fledgling organizations, government departments that are doing it. They got the OVA, the Office of Veterans Affairs. Um, there's a few fledgling, I say fledgling, fledgling in, yeah, they're relatively young, but also fledgling and if they've been around for a while, they're not very well advanced. Um, it's not great. We, like you said, we have the advantage of the National Health Service and a few things that have come in over the last five, 10 years.

• 2:28:56Speaker 04

  As you know, as a veteran here, you'll get prioritized now.

• 2:28:59Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:29:00Speaker 04

  Elsewhere, you can be, you know, you go for, you book a doctor's appointment.

• 2:29:06Speaker 04

  Then you can self identify as a veteran if you want, and it can prioritize you. So that's good. But it's nothing like you guys got over there. But I think that's a cultural difference mainly.

• 2:29:23Speaker 04

  Mainly, but also probably

• 2:29:26Speaker 04

  a lack of appetite and spending money where there's no tangible benefit for the ruling

• 2:29:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:29:32Speaker 04

  party, you know?

• 2:29:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:29:34Speaker 04

  I think if you could say, hey, do this, they'll convert directly the votes for you, then they'd all do it. But in reality, they can't, they can't predict that, so they don't, unfortunately.

• 2:29:44Speaker 03

  Sorry, RS, thank you very much. Sniper is now, is out now on all digital platforms. So get yourself some Tom Berenger.

• 2:29:56Speaker 03

  Did you ever watch the Tom Berenger?

• 2:29:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, I watched years ago. Joe, I think the last time I watched that was before I joined up, actually.

• 2:30:02Jack Murphy?

  Hey, Sniper 10 is out with Chad Michael Collins. We've had him on the show. We'll have him back when Sniper 20 comes out.

• 2:30:14Speaker 03

  Solly, thank you very much. Would you guys be willing to speak with your enemies, even those who killed people you knew?

• 2:30:25Speaker 04

  If he's not being recorded, and no one's going to be looking for him after.

• 2:30:30Speaker 04

  That's a good question. You know, I've got, so I mentioned Northern Ireland earlier, and that's, so that Solly you're talking about there is the dual patron, yeah? And I think I've mentioned to him before about the potential of interviewing a Northern Ireland, like a Northern Ireland terrorist, reformed terrorist, and he's pointing me towards a Northern Irish terrorist who killed a bunch of people. And there's big special remorse, and, you know, wrote to the family and apologized. I do that, I think that this, I've got room in me for remorse and regret in terms of those kind of things. Now interviewing someone who killed a man of mine?

• 2:31:10Speaker 04

  I don't know. I don't know about that.

• 2:31:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:12Speaker 04

  I mean, I don't know about that. Probably a probably a no.

• 2:31:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:17Speaker 04

  Hard no.

• 2:31:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. Uh, Jack, you have an opinion on that?

• 2:31:24Jack Murphy?

  I mean, if it's somebody who killed somebody I knew, I mean, that makes it pretty personal. I mean, I don't know if I'd be able to just overlook that.

• 2:31:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:31Jack Murphy?

  But but somebody who fought like, let's say, fought in Saddam Hussein's army against us. Yeah, I'd I'd interview the guy.

• 2:31:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:39Speaker 04

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 2:31:41Speaker 03

  Um. Sally, uh, thank you. When when is ex SAS Ben Griffin next coming on both your podcasts? He claims the US used his unit to torture civilians.

• 2:31:53Jack Murphy?

  Who is this?

• 2:31:54Speaker 04

  You got.

• 2:31:55Jack Murphy?

  I don't know who that is.

• 2:31:57Speaker 03

  Is this an inside joke?

• 2:31:59Speaker 04

  No, no, no. No, Ben Griffin is is a relatively well-known name over here in uh, in like pacifist circles. Ben Ben was too para and then went to the SAS and he co-founded um, the UK arm of Veterans for Peace over here. And I think Veterans for Peace is is started up in America, but he he chaired Veterans for Peace over here in the UK. Anyway, Ben is quite well-known because um, he's done.

• 2:32:30Speaker 05

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• 2:33:16Speaker 05

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• 2:33:30Speaker 06

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• 2:33:58Speaker 04

  And talk, sir. Have you seen when they do speeches at the Oxford Union? Yeah, I've seen them. Yeah, yeah. So he's done a talk there about problems with our interventionist foreign policy and things like this, but he's been, he claims that he saw war crimes being committed by the SAS when he was serving with them in Baghdad, when he was out there with them in whatever it was, oh, three oh four maybe. He, I interviewed him 2018 or 2019. Back when my views on things were very different then. And again, this is the advantages of talking to people long form, you form opinions much quicker. Like, I probably would have waited until I was 70 or 80 years old to form the opinions

• 2:34:43Speaker 04

  I hold now. But in that conversation, he, with him, he claimed that, and we locked horns on this, he claimed that in the, in the British military, you could, in Afghanistan, just kill someone, anyone, just go and kill a civilian and you get away with it and there'd be no reprimand for it. Which is absolute nonsense. And it's, it's nonsense in any unit, I think. There's a, it's a chain of command and disciplinary procedure for a reason. And we get rules of engagement drilled into us for a reason. And we go through all the, I don't know, here we have the, over here, we have these like virtual training systems where you'll be sat there in a, you know, with like a late, a weapon, but it fires lasers and you'll watch a

• 2:35:27Speaker 04

  You know, a scenario unfold in front of you, really complicated scenario on a basic fire, but gives you a scenario where should you shoot the person or should you not? Is it within our area? If you're not, it's really complex. You go through all the mental mathematics in your head, you gotta go through to do it. We do that to ensure that we don't go killing people. We shouldn't go killing. And Ben thought differently, or thinks differently. Now, it was interesting with Ben Griffin is I highly recommend him as a guest, actually. Interesting with Ben is he's now no longer a member of Veterans for Peace. He now relaxes doing a very simple, yet rewarding job up on an island off the coast of Scotland. He's still very much up for conversations. He's coming back in so we can, we're gonna revisit that

• 2:36:10Speaker 04

  conversation. I'm interested to go back and listen and see where my own opinions have changed.

• 2:36:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:36:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, interesting guy.

• 2:36:18Speaker 03

  Sully, thank you much. When will Jack and Dave appear on the H R podcast?

• 2:36:23Speaker 04

  Anytime you want, boys. Anytime you want.

• 2:36:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, whenever you're ready for us.

• 2:36:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, maybe an impersonal come over when we can do it.

• 2:36:30Jack Murphy?

  Even better.

• 2:36:31Speaker 03

  That'd be amazing.

• 2:36:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:36:33Speaker 03

  Uh, M. Corbin, thank you very much. How can American Soft make it culturally acceptable to have a beer fridge like you find, Chet?

• 2:36:44Speaker 03

  Well, what?

• 2:36:47Speaker 03

  Do you guys have beer fridges?

• 2:36:49Speaker 04

  We are, what, just generally, we have beer fridges, yeah. Where are we talking about?

• 2:36:54Speaker 03

  I'm not sure.

• 2:36:55Jack Murphy?

  I think he's talking about like in your unit, you know, does your platoon have a fridge of beers and I don't want.

• 2:37:01Speaker 03

  The answer is yes.

• 2:37:01Jack Murphy?

  I don't want to shock anyone, but there are some American units where that's a thing.

• 2:37:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:37:10Speaker 03

  Dee, did you see anything on the Patreon? No, there's nothing. Nothing? All right.

• 2:37:14Jack Murphy?

  Hugh, one last thing, because as we were having this conversation, it got me thinking, I feel like I recall a story about a guy. He was either a para or a Royal Marine that went and joined the IRA.

• 2:37:29Speaker 04

  I do not know.

• 2:37:30Jack Murphy?

  That doesn't ring any bells? It was like way back in the eighties. It was before any of our time.

• 2:37:37Speaker 04

  No, I don't know that story. I can dig around for you though if you want.

• 2:37:40Jack Murphy?

  Oh yeah, I mean, I think that would be a fascinating story or fascinating interview if the guy's still around.

• 2:37:46Speaker 03

  And then we have one, I'm a former two para bullshit blue, I'm like three para gunji green. He will know what I mean. Respect always and thanks for your service, Hugh.

• 2:37:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the battalions have their different, oh, thank you for that, buddy. The battalions have their different nicknames and, and

• 2:38:05Speaker 04

  mythical attributes. So a three para, apparently we're really grungy, which means we're really dirty. We never wash, never bother with this. Never wash our uniforms, never wash ourselves, grungy three. That's what we're referring to. Two para, he's referring to a bunch of, they're very straight, they like their processes. They don't like the thing outside the box where I'm joking, I'm joking, I'm just riling him up.

• 2:38:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, one para, weird, just odd, odd, odd people do odd things with broomsticks on the weekend when no one's looking.

• 2:38:34Jack Murphy?

  Hugh, where can people go to find H Hour?

• 2:38:38Speaker 04

  The best place is charlycharlyone.com. So yeah, charlycharly and then O N E dot com is the best place to go. Or just search for H Hour Podcast and you'll find it anywhere.

• 2:38:48Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 2:38:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for your time today, guys. I really enjoyed.

• 2:38:51Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 2:38:52Speaker 03

  We really enjoyed it too. We really appreciate you coming on.

• 2:38:55Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, awesome perspective.

• 2:38:58Speaker 04

  It's, it's difficult being in the guest seat. I forget.

• 2:39:02Jack Murphy?

  I actually find it comforting because I usually have to do the interviews, so when, when it's someone else's responsibility to have the questions and everything, it actually is a little relieving. I find, but next Friday, we will be back with John Kiriyaku, a former CIA officer. Is he, is he coming in studio, Dave? No, he's gonna be remote. Okay. So we will see you guys on Friday, Hugh. Huh? Uh, go check out Eyes On, our sister podcast with Andy Milburn and Jason Lyon.

• 2:39:35Speaker 05

  When it comes to your health, there are people you know you can trust and can count on for advice. Your family doctor, nurses at the practice, and someone who is probably right around the corner, your CVS pharmacist. They're available for your family whenever you need them. Open seven days a week, nights and weekends included. From prescriptions to everyday essentials, CVS helps you take care of it all in one trip. Your CVS pharmacist does so much more than fill prescriptions. They can walk you through dosage questions, help you manage ongoing conditions, and help you search for the best price possible. In fact, CVS accepts most third-party cash discount cards, and 85% of prescriptions cost under $10.

• 2:40:18Speaker 05

  Need a vaccine? They make that easy and affordable, too. CVS isn't just a pharmacy, they're your ally in healthcare. You can get what you need, when and where you need it, at a price you can actually afford. Where you get your medicine matters. At CVS, it couldn't matter more.

• 2:40:35Speaker 06

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• 2:41:06Jack Murphy?

  It is on its own separate channel now. Search for it on YouTube. There's a link down in the description. Um, so we'll see everyone Friday.

• 2:41:14Speaker 05

  When it comes to your health, there are people you know you can trust and can count on for advice. Your family doctor, nurses at the practice, and someone who is probably right around the corner, your CVS pharmacist. They're available for your family whenever you need them. Open seven days a week, nights and weekends included. From prescriptions to everyday essentials, CVS helps you take care of it all in one trip. CVS pharmacist does so much more than fill prescriptions. They can walk you through dosage questions, help you manage ongoing conditions, and help you search for the best price possible. In fact, CVS accepts most third-party cash discount cards, and 85% of prescriptions cost under $10. Need a vaccine? They make that easy and affordable, too.

• 2:41:59Speaker 05

  CVS isn't just a pharmacy. They're your ally in healthcare. You can get what you need, when and where you need it, at a price you can actually afford. Where you get your medicine matters. At CVS, it couldn't matter more.

• 2:42:14Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:42:43Jack Murphy?

  Hugh, thank you so much for spending your evening with us. Especially for you, it's like probably 1:00 in the morning right now, right?

• 2:42:49Speaker 04

  1:30.

• 2:42:50Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:52Speaker 05

  When it comes to your health, there are people you know you can trust and can count on for advice. Your family doctor, nurses at the practice, and someone who is probably right around the corner, your CVS pharmacist. They're available for your family whenever you need them, open seven days a week, nights and weekends included. From prescriptions to everyday essentials, CVS helps you take care of it all in one trip. Your CVS pharmacist does so much more than fill prescriptions. They can walk you through dosage questions, help you manage ongoing conditions, and help you search for the best price possible. In fact, CVS accepts most third-party cash discount cards, and 85% of prescriptions cost under $10. Need a vaccine?

• 2:43:35Speaker 05

  They make that easy and affordable, too. CVS isn't just a pharmacy. They're your ally in healthcare. You can get what you need, when and where you need it, at a price you can actually afford. Where you get your medicine matters. At CVS, it couldn't matter more.

• 2:43:52Speaker 00

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:44:22Speaker 04

  I'm not complaining.

• 2:44:23Jack Murphy?

  Appreciate it, man. Thanks for making the effort.

• 2:44:26Speaker 04

  Cheers, guys. Stay safe.

• 2:44:28Jack Murphy?

  All right, we'll see all of you next Friday.

• 2:44:30Speaker 04

  Bye.

• 2:44:31Speaker 05

  When it comes to your health, there are people you know you can trust and can count on for advice: your family doctor, nurses at the practice, and someone who is probably right around the corner, your CVS pharmacist. They're available for your family whenever you need them. Open seven days a week, nights and weekends included. From prescriptions to everyday essentials, CVS helps you take care of it all in one trip. Your CVS pharmacist does so much more than fill prescriptions. They can walk you through dosage questions, help you manage ongoing conditions, and help you search for the best price possible. In fact, CVS accepts most third-party cash discount cards, and 85% of prescriptions cost under $10. Need a vaccine?

• 2:45:15Speaker 05

  They make that easy and affordable, too. CVS isn't just a pharmacy. They're your ally in healthcare. You can get what you need, when and where you need it, at a price you can actually afford. Where you get your medicine matters. At CVS, it couldn't matter more.

• 2:45:31Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:46:01Jack Murphy?

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extentur, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extentur is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It is a For sudden breathing problems. Extensure is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection.

• 2:46:44Jack Murphy?

  Common colds, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or flu-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensure. Learn more at Extensure.com or call 1-833-393-3678. Happy birthday, America. It's time to celebrate and play your favorite Las Vegas casino games by American-owned Spinquest.com. What's better than fireworks and American pie? Hitting a blackjack in the palm of your hand and you won't lose your fingers. Over 1,000 games, including slots and live dealers. And $30 coin packs are on sale for 10. Spinquest.com. Buy American players for American players.

• 2:47:25Speaker 01

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• 2:47:32Speaker 05

  The holidays are all about making memories, and Pillsbury makes it easier to make them extra special. From flaky cressens and pie crusts to cookies and cinnamon rolls, Pillsbury brings a little extra magic to your holiday table. And for a limited time, Grand Cinnamon Rolls have more icing than the prior recipe. So spend less time stressing over holiday prep and more time enjoying the moments that matter. Visit Pillsbury.com for holiday recipe inspiration. Pillsbury: More Holiday Magic to Love.