Pod Insights Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso Laura Dern on Living Well (The Dan Buettner Podcast) About this episode We’re excited to share a new show from Lemonada Media: The Dan Buettner Podcast. Today’s episode features the incomparable Laura Dern.
In his groundbreaking Blue Zones research, National Geographic explorer and bestselling author Dan Buettner uncovered the secrets to longevity and happiness from the world’s longest-lived populations. Now, on the podcast, he’s sharing the practical habits, mindsets, and wisdom that can set the stage for a longer, more fulfilling life—at any age. Dan sits down with extraordinary doctors, explorers, thought leaders, and actors from around the world.
In this talk, Laura Dern shares how she lives with purpose, the surprising study that suggests winning an Academy Award can add years to your life, and lessons from her actor parents, Bruce Dern and Diane Ladd.
Listen to The Dan Buettner Podcast wherever you get your podcasts, or watch on YouTube. To learn more, head to https://lemonada.lnk.to/TheDanBuettnerPodcastfd
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Transcript 12,848 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:12 Sam Fragoso? Hey everyone, it's Sam. With the long weekend coming up, I wanted to share an episode from the Dan Buettner Podcast, another series from our partners at Lemonada Media. Dan is an author and National Geographic Explorer, best known for his groundbreaking research on the Blue Zones, the part of the world where people live the longest and happiest lives. On the podcast, he recently sat down with one of my favorite performers, the one and only Laura Dern. She came on Talk Easy back in 2019, where we talked about little women, marriage story, all things Laura Dern. This new conversation, recorded earlier in August, covers all kinds of topics: how Dern lives with purpose, the surprising
0:54 Sam Fragoso? study that suggests winning an Academy Award can add years to your life, and lessons from her actor parents, Bruce Dern and Diane Ladd. Talk Easy will be back this Sunday with a special episode for Labor Day weekend. Until then, here is Laura Dern with Dan Buettner.
1:14 Speaker 01 I'm starting to learn that the thing I run from the most might be the thing that propels me the most. You're together, saying, "Hold my hands," because it's a very emotional scene and I'm falling apart here. And those people are with you forever. Is purpose alone the key to longevity?
1:33 Speaker 02 One thing I know works is, you know, for this podcast, I like to bring the best experts to the science of longevity and the science of living better. But this next guest is the real treat. She hasn't spent a lot of time studying. She's spent a lot of times living and experiencing. She probably has metabolized more of the human experience, some pain, but a lot of just really big living here in Hollywood, and distilled it all down to a number of actionables that are shockingly similar to the same things I discovered in Blue Zones.
2:17 Speaker 02 The power of friendships, do people in Hollywood have true friends? The ability to tap into ancestors. And finally, the ability to get in touch with yourself to solve problems. Laura Dern is full of not only great movies, but great life experience, all of which she shares with you now. You really are one of my favorite human beings. And not because you're famous, though, that's a fun thing to know about you.
2:47 Speaker 01 I thought that's why you liked me.
2:49 Speaker 02 But our friend, our producer, Pat Wyman, was just telling us the story of meeting Steven Spielberg on the set of Schindler's List. And him telling Pat that contrary to popular belief, it's not the jerks who claw themselves that get ahead in Hollywood. It's the nice people. And you are the consummate example of that because I've had the privilege of knowing you several years now. And you are one of the nicest people. You're kind to everybody and you're especially gracious to your friend. And you're hugely successful. And I'm just going to tell this story. The other day, I saw you indoors and you were putting your sunglasses on indoors.
3:34 Speaker 02 And I said, why are you putting your sunglasses on indoors? And you looked at me very serious. You said, well, I'm famous. And I thought you were joking. I started cracking up and I go, oh yeah, that's right. You are famous. But when you're sitting with you, you don't feel like you're sitting with a movie star. And here you, I tried to count them last night. It was like over 100 movies and television shows. And you've won Golden Globes and Academy Awards, but you're humble. And it's just, it's just so, I just feel so lucky. I don't know. Okay, so I'm not going to embarrass you anymore. But I want to start with an interesting fact that I want you to react to.
4:17 Speaker 01 Okay, and then I get to compliment you later, right?
4:19 Speaker 02 That's the last 45 minutes, actually.
4:24 Speaker 02 So you win an Academy Award for marriage story. And it turns out, there's a, I don't know if the study's known in Hollywood, but a study that followed 2,111 actors. And it measured the actors that won an Academy Award compared to the actors who didn't. And it found that the actors who won the Academy Award will live, on average, 5.1 years longer than normal.
4:52 Speaker 01 Oh, my God, this is amazing news.
4:55 Speaker 02 So winning the Academy Award is better than even eating beans.
4:59 Speaker 01 Or moving to a Blue Zone?
5:01 Speaker 02 Well, maybe Blue, yeah, moving to Blue Zone gives you another 5.1 years.
5:04 Speaker 01 Okay, perfect. So if we add those together.
5:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's a decade.
5:08 Speaker 01 Then I'll live in Icaria with my Oscar.
5:11 Speaker 02 Yes.
5:11 Speaker 01 And that's just gonna...
5:12 Speaker 02 And eat beans.
5:13 Speaker 01 And eat beans?
5:14 Speaker 02 Yes, you'll be 150.
5:15 Speaker 01 Some olive oil? Be of service?
5:20 Speaker 02 But I'm wondering if you think, has it worked? Does, do you think winning the Academy has made you feel like you've arrived? So you don't have as much stress? Or do people treat you differently? Or do you, are you in a position to be more generous? Or do you think there's anything to that?
5:43 Speaker 01 Here's a challenge for you.
5:45 Speaker 02 Okay, already?
5:47 Speaker 01 One study I would find very interesting is when people are given, you know, are awarded or trofed at the highest measure of success in their field, their plaque, their Olympic medal, their award of whatever variety. If it gives them an opportunity to rest on their laurels, feel pride, feel humility.
6:22 Speaker 01 And think job well done? Or does it create a sense of stress and drive to have to climb the next mountain?
6:31 Speaker 02 Do it again.
6:32 Speaker 01 And I've only heard that, the latter. I've only heard from people, now what do I do? Now I've got to do this. Now I want to do that. Now I want to challenge myself in these different ways. Positive, you know, challenges. But because you are our longevity guru, and I'm always asking you questions in all that you're studying and teaching us. When I look at my parents, who are extraordinary actors, I was just telling you this the other day.
7:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:03 Speaker 01 I talked to my mom about her, you know, now in her late 80s, about her achievements. She doesn't want to spend one minute thinking about them. She hasn't given them to herself. She's just driven for the next thing. The gift as a daughter in that is she has purpose. The gift in that is she's driven to get to work and keep her body healthy so that she can do these things. That is her drive, and that is a good thing. But I would dare say, I think her stress level is constant because she never gives herself a moment of joy or pride in what she has accomplished. Or, you know, like...
7:48 Speaker 02 Do you think if she would have won an Academy Award, that stress level would be lower and therefore...
7:54 Speaker 01 Uh-uh. No. And Golden Globes, she's won the British Academy Award. She's won this award, that award. And it's always like, well, there's another award, or another movie, or another character, or... So I don't think so. And certainly for me, anytime I've done something I'm proud of, it's never about an award. I think it's about an accomplishment. So if I've been part of a film that I think is truly a masterful film, it's a collective, right? Because it is such a collaborative art, movies. I mean... As a writer, as a researcher, you think, wow, I've achieved this thing. But I get to do this job where 150 of us, maybe who don't know each other,
8:39 Speaker 01 go to some small town, kind of move in together like summer camp to tell one story, to make one piece of art. And we all have different crafts. And it's such, that's such a beautiful collaborative art form. And if you get it right, like it's, there is such a sense of achievement because you touch people with it, or you make them laugh, or you move them, or you tell a story that matters in the world. And that feels amazing. And only then drives you to want to do something that's incredibly opposite, or play a new kind of character that you've never explored before.
9:21 Speaker 01 So for me, but again, I haven't held an Oscar while eating beans in a blues album. And so that might be, that might be the moment when I really, when I really accept that this is giving me extra years.
9:38 Speaker 02 Does stress propel you along even after you've won these big awards? Or is there something else that keeps you on purpose, so to speak?
9:49 Speaker 01 I'm starting to learn that the thing I run from the most might be the thing that propels me the most.
9:55 Speaker 02 Interesting.
9:57 Speaker 01 Which is quiet. I get quiet in the morning if I give myself time to meditate. And in the quiet, I actually remember my dream. And the dream is attached to an emotional conversation that I actually haven't had in life, but I have with someone I love in the dream. And that propels me to think about being more truthful in my daily life, or telling that person who I haven't seen in a while that I love them or appreciate them. Or it makes me think about a story that I haven't told, or influence a story I should tell, or be in service to a cause or an issue I care about.
10:42 Speaker 01 You know, check on loved ones in a new way. And I think, my God, five minutes of quiet. And I've just filled my day with not stress of doing, but love of doing.
10:55 Speaker 02 Wow.
10:56 Speaker 01 The love of giving and checking in and writing or creating. So, but I run from quiet.
11:02 Speaker 02 Run, and that's where you get most energized.
11:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:06 Speaker 02 You know, what you just said there, it just seems so antithetical to what I think I believed about Hollywood and movie stars. You know, I, in my mind, what, what drove actors to work really hard and keep themselves beautiful and, and network themselves to the right place was fame and it was attention and wealth. And is that stuff important to you? Has it ever been?
11:42 Speaker 01 Money wasn't even as important as it should have been. When I was younger, because I was raised to believe that artists don't make money. But when you start taking care of your loved ones, becoming a mother, you know, in the sandwich generation, becoming a daughter of parents who deserve the support and need the support, you know, suddenly, yeah, money starts to matter to all of us when we need to care for more people and not just ourself. And, and I've tried to participate in shifting that narrative,
12:25 Speaker 01 that like, there should be equity for artists. And I see that because my parents deserve that and my friends deserve that. And when I was growing up, my parents and their friends were in a community where they were the lesser paid of a community. You know, like the actors were in apartment buildings and we would go to the studio head's house. Or even the director's house, the swimming pool. And as a little kid, you start to notice, right? Oh, so acting isn't necessarily-
13:01 Speaker 02 And your parents are famous. I mean, you should say their names.
13:03 Speaker 01 Very famous, Bruce Dern and Diane Ladd. And this was at the height of success. And, you know, at that time, you could star in movies. Until the blockbuster, you could star in many movies and, you know, have a median income and, you know, be comfortable. And that's luxury. I think a lot of people, particularly in terms of gender equity, women in this industry have fought to question, you know, why, if I'm working the same amount of days, playing an equal role to my co-star, is this man getting? I know everyone talked about double the amount. But in my case, I was like, wow, double the amount?
13:47 Speaker 01 Is that true? And I called a very good friend of ours, who's an actor, and we had done a movie together. And he was, of course, shocked and so inspired by this that he's really looked out for his fellow female actors since then.
14:05 Speaker 02 Wow.
14:06 Speaker 01 But I said, hey, remember when we did that movie? Like, we worked the same days. We were the two stars of the movie. And I was trying to think, did I make half of what you made? And I realized you made 10 times what I made.
14:20 Speaker 02 No way.
14:22 Speaker 01 10 times. And we-
14:24 Speaker 02 And you're kind of equal famous, too, if that's who I think you're talking about.
14:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, you know, equally successful and meant, you know, an equal amount to the film and the filmmaker, blah, blah. So it, you know, there have been a lot of changes in that area. But when it comes to the question of celebrity and fame, this is where I get so lucky, Dan, because I was raised by craftspeople who just love their job. They, my mom came from a tiny town in Mississippi. My dad came from a legal, political family in Chicago. Totally different backgrounds, but neither of them anything to do with the arts. And except my father's great uncle, who was Archibald MacLeish at the time,
15:12 Speaker 01 the poet laureate-
15:13 Speaker 02 Poet, yeah.
15:13 Speaker 01 And, you know, extraordinary writer, but-
15:18 Speaker 01 But they found, unlike me, who was raised around it, they found this path to falling in love with acting. And they studied, and that was a sacrifice job, where family were disappointed. You had to drive a cab in New York City and hope to have a meal that night just to maybe get three lines in a play. And to be raised by those parents who have never thought about the cover of a magazine or fame, or red carpets, or stylists, or Instagram followers. Those parents taught me
16:01 Speaker 01 about their love of storytelling, and particular storytelling, which I think links to your storytelling. And I think it's why I love talking to you about everything you do, is they're interested in the gray. They're interested in broken people. They're interested in helping us find empathy for someone we would otherwise pass by on the street with disinterest.
16:27 Speaker 02 But you and I are also in this similar situation that we have... My great treasures are my mom and dad, Roger and Dolly, who are older. They're about the same age as your dad, late 80s, 90. And kids, the other great treasures. And we're sandwiched in between. And I mean, for most of us, that is an enormously stressful situation because you're worried about both generations. The one below, they're not out of school, not out of college. And you've got older people who have health problems. And we're getting from the top and the bottom. And I'm just wondering if it's different in Hollywood,
17:10 Speaker 02 or if it's different for you managing this bifurcation of responsibilities?
17:19 Speaker 01 No. I mean, I think whoever we are, wherever we are...
17:27 Speaker 01 We are in it. And it's joyful and hellish and all the things when you feel the fear and worry of the people you love. You know, I am also aware of my privilege. I'm aware of my good fortune that, you know, for people who have endless funds, they have an incredible luxury to do anything for their elders they would want. Set them up at home with around the clock caregivers. What a luxury is that for those of us who know
18:11 Speaker 01 the world of assisted living and trying to get help or getting insurance to cover hospice care. And the battle of elder care support in this country is the greatest shame in the United States. Like, I'm so horrified by it now that I'm living it and watching it. And as a union member of my Actors Union and as a daughter of almost 70-year-union members, they have a union that does not give them health care in these years. If they do not work for-
18:49 Speaker 02 Your mom and dad.
18:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, if in the next 18 months, my parents do not work as actors-
18:55 Speaker 02 Famous actors that are struggling financially after being, you know, household names in America for seven decades.
19:02 Speaker 01 And most unions cover you when you-
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20:22 Speaker 01 When you retire, the Actors Union does not, and that should change. That's not right.
20:29 Speaker 02 I don't know your financial situation, but I'm guessing you could hire people to take care of your parents. But yeah, and I hope I'm not revealing too much. I know that you're going to see your dad regularly. You're driving up to see your mom regularly. You're shooting films. You're constantly shooting films and great TV shows.
20:50 Speaker 01 He makes it sound so.
20:52 Speaker 02 Heroic, it is. And I'm, you know, Laura, as you well know, but I'm just a reporter. I, there's, I got no horse in a race.
21:02 Speaker 02 No, but it is, it's genuinely impressive. And you're raising two wonderful kids. I want to talk about them for two in a minute, but I'm wondering how you manage the stress because everywhere in America, increasingly, I would argue, we are in it, living in an increasingly stressful world. And yours is a, is.
21:32 Speaker 02 You know, in some ways, greater stress because the public is looking at you. And you, multimillion dollar budgets that with a camera focused on you, and if you screw it up, it's 150 people's income. How do you manage the stress and yet seem vital?
21:49 Speaker 01 I'm so much more stressed right now. Thanks, Dan.
21:53 Speaker 02 Well, it's a damn Peter. That may, that may be what cracks it. She had a nervous breakdown.
21:59 Speaker 01 In the middle of a podcast.
22:02 Speaker 02 It'd be ratings pop.
22:03 Speaker 01 Okay, let me fake one at least.
22:06 Speaker 02 Let's see then. Just a little nervous breakdown.
22:08 Speaker 01 I'll do it before the end.
22:11 Speaker 02 Okay, great.
22:12 Speaker 01 I want to surprise you when it comes.
22:13 Speaker 02 I'll think it's real.
22:15 Speaker 01 But, um, yeah, I, you know, I remember when I had babies and was working and felt overwhelmed. How am I going to do it? And sleepless and all the things every human with a newborn thinks and knows deeply. And children, you know, that go through their own journeys in, in, in life and health and all the things that they have to walk through. Because this idea that kids are lucky, kids aren't going through stuff, particularly now culturally.
22:56 Speaker 01 I mean, they are going through things we can't imagine. Adolescents, teenagers globally right now are in a, as they were calling it, the other pandemic, which is the mental health crisis amongst youth globally. And so you're trying to parent and, and work and do all the things that you're doing. And you think it's going to be your most stressful years. And then you get to this moment we're talking about, where there really isn't time to take a breath. You are navigating going to this parent or that parent, or your kid, or your job. And, um,
23:37 Speaker 01 I just, I remembered the other day in helping my mother and in dealing with a family crisis, I remember thinking, oh, wow, I haven't felt this since I had a two year old and a newborn, where I said to myself, okay, do you shower? Do you go for a run? Do you do a little yoga? Do you eat? But you get to pick one because there's just no time. And then we've all had those moments in our life where you, you can carve out 10 minutes for yourself. And I'm always amazed because I have not balanced this when I see people are like, Laura, you just need to find time for self-care, like an hour of exercise, meditate, eat,
24:20 Speaker 01 you know, have a meal with a friend and then, you know, because you have to take care of you. I'm like, are they kidding me? 10 minutes to exercise, 10 minutes to eat and hopefully a shower when you're taking care of loved ones in crisis, you know?
24:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. Don't want to add to the crisis.
24:40 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's, yeah, that's true. So trying to navigate that is definitely a dance I haven't figured out. And I'm doing it with other loved ones, my stepfather's kids and I, working together now to support him in a crisis. And, you know, I am an only child, so I've never had the experience of leaning on a sibling, which is part of this dance at this moment in my life. And it's the first time in his care that because he has children, we're working together to figure out what is the best choice for him.
25:22 Speaker 01 And I was just saying this to you yesterday, I, I feel very lonely in only one area in my life, which is when I have to make a massive decision for other people, a consequential decision, including about their health.
25:38 Speaker 02 I want to say something about this self-care. It's this buzzword you hear all the time, but I actually think it's a little bit overrated. And we had, we were at a dinner party last night, we were talking about how many Americans don't feel alive.
25:55 Speaker 02 We live in this world of, I would say, overabundance and over-ease. Our grocery store end up on our doorstep. We don't even go to the grocery store anymore. We drive everywhere. We're never in a room that's not either heated or cooled to 72 degrees. There's rich food everywhere. There's electronic distractions all the time.
26:17 Speaker 02 And to take the focus off of yourself and put it on your parents, your aging parents, or your children, or a friend in need. And while that might not feel like self-care, when do you ever feel more alive than you feel like, "I'm actually helping"? It's not easy. I'm stressed out and I haven't even taken my shower, but yet you're doing something for others and you're muscling through discomfort. And in this weird sort of ways, it's like, holy wow.
26:56 Speaker 02 I actually feel kind of good in that second when you have a moment to yourself.
27:03 Speaker 01 You're absolutely right. I feel totally alive in the service of. And that's a conversation you and I have been having, which is, is purpose alone the key to longevity? Or is purpose tied to being of service? An aspect to longevity that is a key? Because can you share? I mean, I'm sure so many of your listeners...
27:30 Speaker 02 You hit it right on, and we miss it. Purpose is this facile word, I think, this overuse that people barely understand it. But we know people who have a true sense of purpose, live about eight years longer than people who don't. And the way we know that is this very famous scientist named Robert Butler analyzed the writings of people when they were young. And those people whose writings was laced with meaning or they could sort of articulate their sense of purpose, they were living about eight years longer than people who were rudderless in life. But when it comes to purpose, in all blue zones, there's vocabulary for purpose. But it's not the kind of purpose like, "Well, I love sports cars."
28:14 Speaker 02 Or, you know, "I collect Pokemon cards," or something like that. It is... There's always an element of altruism or philanthropy metabolized into that word. So the Okinawans have ikigai. And ikigai, longest lived women in the history of the world are Okinawans. And they're ikigai, and they could all tell you what their ikigai is. But it almost always has to do with also supporting family or making the community a better place. They are, they're the ones in the community, they're the spiritual leaders. Okinawa, by the way, is one of the few cultures in the world where women are the spiritual leaders,
28:57 Speaker 02 not the men, which probably imparts lower mortality to the kids. Or it's, the men are karate teachers, karate originated in Okinawa. And that martial art, which is also a discipline and an exercise, is passed down by the men. In Kauai, a place I just visited for my, my, my current book, they have this notion of kuliana. And kuliana is sort of, it's, it's a word that is synonymous with both purpose and responsibility. You, you cannot break the two apart, and it's very strong. Kauai, by the way, has one of the longest healthy life expectancies in all of America.
29:39 Speaker 02 And you see these same sort of themes of purpose and, and, and it's, it doesn't have to do with self-enrichment or even self-gratification. It has to do about with using my strengths to make my community better. And it's a big distinction, and, and, you know, I just, the way you're kind of describing your life, it's, it's very similar.
30:05 Speaker 01 Can you, can you share, many may know this story, but your friend at 104 making tortillas?
30:12 Speaker 01 Because I thought that that sense of purpose, but it's tied to responsibility is so beautiful.
30:19 Speaker 02 I'll tell a slightly different version, but her name was Panchita. She lived in Nicoya, Costa Rica. And I knew her until she was 109. And she lived by herself, had a very tough life.
30:33 Speaker 02 She woke up every morning and swept her dirt floor. She wore a carnival dress and carnival beads. And when you sat with her, she always sort of touched you. And when you showed up, she said, God blesses me. And her, her son would, Tommy would come bicycle over to see her every day. And her son was 89.
31:02 Speaker 02 But, but the story I remember of her, we wanted to get an idea of what 109 year old eats for lunch. And I persuaded her to make lunch. And she was a little baffled by the request, but she said, okay. And she had a earthen stove and she went and got eggs from her chicken and she patted corn tortillas. And she roasted the tortillas on open fire and she prepares this beautiful lunch. And then she stands there and I said, you gonna eat it? And she turns to me and she goes, no, that's for you. And here's this dirt floor, poor woman, you know, who had two eggs and she insisted that I eat them.
31:47 Speaker 02 And I could tell you three dozen versions of that. In all of these blue zones, the, you know, when I think of a retrospective empathy and, and helping others is, and discomfort is always a key feature. And it's almost antithetical to the way we're living and the way we're going in America. And it's not that it's bad, the way we're going. It's just that I think we're aiming at the wrong targets if we want to feel alive and be alive at 100. So that's the, you know, another blue zone value and insight that we often miss.
32:29 Speaker 02 You know, the anti-aging industry is an $84 billion a year industry, and it's failed to produce even one pill, supplement, or intervention that's been shown to slow, stop, or reverse aging.
32:41 Speaker 01 What?
32:42 Speaker 02 It is all... We just had one of the greatest doctors in the world on, and he said that all these anti-aging supplements, to use his word, are bullshit. And I happen to believe that. But one thing I know works is friends, people who care about you on a bad day. And your friends, you were telling us, are the same people who appeared on Big Little Lies, you know, who are the most fabulous and fabulous people in the world. And I'm just wondering, in Hollywood, are friendships transactional? Or can you really make true friends in this town?
33:25 Speaker 01 The truest friends you could ever dream up. Being an only child raised by actors in this town, my sisters were the people I worked with. I did my first movie at 11. So I've found... In the "found" family we all find in our life and are blessed to find. A huge part of that, for many, is the workplace or university, you know, where you're put together. And then you're together forever because of this great love story you find. And so for me, work and making a show or a movie, or whatever it was,
34:10 Speaker 01 with, you know, my, yeah, dearest girlfriends of my life. You know, I'm lucky to have my best friend from early childhood, who still remains, and two of my best friends from my school years.
34:30 Speaker 01 And I'm, you know, so I feel like, you know, friendships are also found by the chapters of our lives. But in my case, I've had the incredible good fortune of those friendships lasting to this day, and I expect through a lifetime.
34:48 Speaker 02 But I, you know, you live in this world, so it's, you just think it's normal. But you, you have these A-list celebrities who are seemingly best friends. But do you think they are really best friends?
35:03 Speaker 01 Well, you know, let's break it down, because it's interesting.
35:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:07 Speaker 01 How?
35:08 Speaker 02 Because I think I'm voicing the skepticism of others and not really challenging, but interested.
35:13 Speaker 01 But how is a friendship born? Usually, like any love story, we find each other at a moment where we allow ourselves, we allow our hearts to crack open. We, we're in a circumstance where our most vulnerable self shows up.
35:38 Speaker 01 Be that middle school, be that a heartbreak, be that going through a deep and true time, you suddenly are more available to being your most honest self. So what would be more profound for the skeptics out there? Dan isn't one, he's just giving voice to that.
36:03 Speaker 02 Yes, yes. He's reporting.
36:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then, you know, you're playing out a story of women going through the depth of despair together, immense heartbreak, worry about a child, losing a parent. And you're playing out these stories. The only way to the truth is you share your own life with each other. So instead of having a perfunctory friendship with a colleague, you're together saying, what hurt you the most? When were you that you're most afraid? Hold my hands, because it's a very emotional scene, and I'm falling apart here.
36:47 Speaker 01 And those people are with you forever. You know, I... Of all the people I think of and in moments of my life, one of the great privileges I ever had. And even though we don't see each other and, you know, don't regularly have time together, she's always in my heart because when Ellen DeGeneres had her television show, not her talk show, but her TV series, Ellen, she made the gorgeous and radically brave choice to come out as her character and herself on national television.
37:32 Speaker 01 And I wanted to support her and played the character that she comes out to. And it was massively impactful.
37:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:45 Speaker 01 And changed everything.
37:46 Speaker 02 You were shocked after that.
37:47 Speaker 01 What's that?
37:47 Speaker 02 You were kind of criticized.
37:50 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, we went through weird times, security, everything, you know, but, but I got to be the person that held her hands and looked in her eyes as she said publicly for the first time, "I'm gay." And I knew all that she was carrying with that moment. She had shared with me stories of her life and it was its own ritual. So there is nothing surface about the ritual of telling someone who you are and sharing your pain or your joy together. That's how all these friendships were born.
38:31 Speaker 01 And you don't, no matter what anybody thinks about actors, you know, I remember going out with someone once in my twenties and he was like, "Oh, boy, I'm gonna fall in love with you and actors are great liars." And I absolutely disagree. If you're good at your job, it's because you don't know anything but telling the truth. And that's how I found these amazing, amazing women in my life. Yeah.
39:04 Speaker 02 And has there been a time in your life where a friend has come to your aid or saved you or?
39:17 Speaker 01 Throughout my life, every time. I mean,
39:22 Speaker 01 you know, shout out to amazing Reese Witherspoon. This morning, I'm seeing you, which is my great gift, and then going to help my mother with a difficult moment in and around supporting my stepfather in a, in a health crisis. And this morning I wake up and she's sent me something perfect, a beautiful video
39:52 Speaker 01 that's silly and kind and moving and all those things. And just under it says, "Show this to your mom."
39:58 Speaker 02 Oh.
39:59 Speaker 01 So it's, you know, when we have friends who want to take care of our parents with us. That's like-
40:06 Speaker 02 That's a friend.
40:07 Speaker 01 That's a friend.
40:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:09 Speaker 01 So, you know-
40:09 Speaker 02 Because she's not going to get anything out of it, or it's, it's not transactional, like-
40:14 Speaker 01 Well, actually, we are, we do pay her
40:17 Speaker 01 a lot, I'm funny.
40:18 Speaker 02 A retainer, right?
40:19 Speaker 01 Just because I'm so lonely and I need to feel like I have friends. So I do pay my friends a lot. But they, they, they're such good actors.
40:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:27 Speaker 01 Because actors are good liars. That feels as if they're authentically my friends.
40:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's, it's heartwarming to hear and to, and to get a glimpse into the, that even these people who we think occupy the highest echelons of American culture and they're, they're adulateness and they're in magazines and on covers and get all these awards. At the end of the day, they're still human and the way they connect with other humans is, is the same as janitors do and teachers and-
41:08 Speaker 01 And I have to say, I-
41:12 Speaker 01 You know, I'm not trying to imply that females have deeper friendships. But traditionally, the men I was raised around, you know, they keep their feelings close to the vest. And they have beautiful and long friendships. But I wouldn't say that my experience witnessing my father's friendships versus my mother's friendships go as deep. They have gone to every Laker game together and they love each other. You know what I mean? But it's not the same as going through the heartbreak together,
41:54 Speaker 01 the pain of the divorce, the things that I've watched my mother and her friends kind of carry each other through great grief and challenge. And I'm particularly moved watching you in your male friendships. Because, you know, your friend that we're both close to, that we were with last night.
42:18 Speaker 02 Dean Phillips, he won't mind the shout out.
42:21 Speaker 01 But like, there is never a conversation where you guys don't cut right to the deepest core. And I would dare say, if someone ever wanted to do a study on this, that the depth of friendship also is a longevity pill.
42:37 Speaker 02 Absolutely. There is actually a Robert Wood Johnson study on loneliness. And you can actually show up with people and feel lonelier than you are than while you're by yourself. And the measure of a true friend that relieves loneliness is one who you can count on on a bad day. And so many male friendships, they're, you know, we're both Vikings fans, or we're hunters or fishermen. And, you know, we never really reveal our emotions. We would never cry in front of each other because that would be a sign of weakness
43:20 Speaker 02 or not even necessarily have a really meaningful conversation. And women are much better than that. And there may be some evolutionary rationale that... You know, men had to keep emotional distance because we were typically in battle, protecting our village against the opposing village or whatever. But women are much better at social connectivity. And it may explain why women in America right now are living about six years longer than men. Actually, we don't exactly know why women are living longer. It might be estrogen's better than testosterone, or women take fewer risks. But it might be that women have better friendships.
44:05 Speaker 02 And that's something we ought to pay attention to. And quite honestly, and thank you for saying that about my male friends. One is right here, Pat Weiland, who's sitting right next to us. I'm actually very cognizant in the treasure, which are good friendships. And you know that much cited Harvard study, that longevity study that followed people since 1925? And the biggest thing to emerge when it comes to happiness and longevity is quality friendships. And that, especially in this country, it's not a birthright. If you don't work at it, if you're not willing to reciprocate, if you're not willing...
44:49 Speaker 02 I'll bet you Reese gets little videos from you every once in a while, too, or other nice things. It doesn't come naturally. So, far better investment in making quality friends than chasing after that disappearing youth or anti-aging serums, or, you know, superfood supplements and that sort of thing.
45:11 Speaker 01 Wow, that's amazing. That's beautiful to know. I think also, being an only child, my friendships matter in such a specific way to me, because those are my sisters. I was telling you about Belina, my oldest friend. Belina Logan, who I was introduced to at age one.
45:32 Speaker 02 What'd you guys talk about?
45:35 Speaker 01 She actually threw a bowl of bakamole on my head and I've never left her since.
45:41 Speaker 01 But, you know, that became my sibling, you know, single moms kind of raising their little girls together. So those friendships, and my mother is an only child, and she modeled that for me. Her sisters were her girlfriends that she kept around always. So, yes, that's...
46:01 Speaker 02 De facto sisters.
46:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. That's an extraordinary thing to witness and then get to be part of.
46:07 Speaker 02 I want to shift to a slightly different topic that is also very important for life expectancy that I know you're passionate about, and I know ahead of time, this is a very controversial topic. But, you know, I just, I did a documentary for Netflix called Live to 100, where I named Singapore a six blue zone. Why Singapore? Because in one lifetime, they've seen life expectancy jump by 25 years, 25 years of extra life since the 1960s. They have the highest, healthiest life expectancy in the world. And it is a melting pot, just like America. They don't have better genes than we do. They don't have superfoods. They don't have magic pills. You pay for your own healthcare there like you do in the United
46:52 Speaker 02 States. But one of the things they don't have, and we do, is guns. Individuals cannot own guns. They're completely illegal and very severe penalties for individuals to own a gun. And last year, they had a really bad year when it comes to gun death. In the entire nation, there were three gun deaths. Meanwhile, in the United States, we lost 55,000 Americans to gun deaths. Love 'em or hate 'em, guns are expensive when it comes
47:30 Speaker 02 to life expectancy. We lose about a half a year of life expectancy in this country to gun death, and for black people, it's closer to four years. So, gun ownership is worse for black people than hamburgers, eating hamburgers and junk food is in many cases.
47:54 Speaker 02 So, you know, we have a constitutional right to bear arms in this country, and it's a freedom, and, you know, people deserve freedom. But we also have to realize there is a very deep cost in life and the misery that ensues. And I'd just love to hear about the work you're doing about gun control and why it's important to you.
48:22 Speaker 01 I've never heard
48:28 Speaker 01 anyone who wants to protect the American people, as you so beautifully just laid out the consequence. I've never heard anyone who wants to advocate for and fight for the safety of the American people bring up arguing constitutional right. I've never heard of someone saying, "We need to go to everyone's houses and get their guns," which was done in Australia and successfully for many, many years, "and no one's going to have a gun."
49:08 Speaker 01 Anyone who's ever wanted to effect change to protect the American people has said, "We have a right to bear arms in this country. It is how we access them and the kind of gun that we should all be having real conversations about." And when you look at the number of NRA members who are in support of an assault weapons ban, it gets really interesting.
49:29 Speaker 02 In what way?
49:30 Speaker 01 That there's an agreement across the line, across parties, that, you know, to go deer hunting or protect your family, you don't have to have an AR-15.
49:42 Speaker 02 Which is an automatic rifle.
49:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, and if there are weapons that have been used by the military in war, is that the weapon that should be easy access for some 15-year-old who then uses it in high school in a mass school shooting? And I've heard the argument, "Well, you know, I mean, look at, in the UK, there was just some crazy guy with a knife. So let's say we didn't have guns." Okay, and tragically, there was the attack or stabbing of three individuals.
50:22 Speaker 01 No fatality, not losing 33 kids in a matter of seconds. And this is the most devastating tragedy as a cultural community, that we have not figured out a way to come together, looking at not only assault weapons bans, how about just background checks? The conversation, continual conversation and debate around background checks, around access to mental health information, when you're talking about youth having access to guns, getting guns online, gun shows. These are all the conversations that have been had back and forth, instead of coming together to have the conversation.
51:07 Speaker 01 We were talking about our friend Matthew McConaughey, and he and his amazing wife have done some, did some remarkable service for this country in a very centered and grounded way. He, as a Texan, who was trained on a gun and given a gun as a young boy, having the conversation around how we are going to keep our communities safe after the tragedy at Uvalde. So, much like a few other issues in this country, the tragedy that there is a divide around life expectancy is insane. The fact that we cannot come together and solve this
51:52 Speaker 01 and protect our own children. You know, I remember the breaking point for me was when I had a five-year-old daughter come home to describe to me the simulated lockdown that she had to go through in kindergarten, where you're teaching this little girl in the world to have voice and speak up. If you feel afraid, or someone's being inappropriate, if there's someone scary, use your voice. You yell, you say, "Stop," you do what you need to do. She comes home and says, "Mommy, I'm confused. They told me if a scary man were to come in, and they lock the door,
52:37 Speaker 01 we're supposed to go into the closet and be really, really quiet and say nothing."
52:41 Speaker 02 The terror.
52:44 Speaker 01 Don't use your voice, be silent, so we can't find you. But you said if someone did something, you know, to yell or say stop or, you know, you're just like, what is happening? And that these babies, literal babies, are having to simulate a mass school shooting at school.
53:06 Speaker 02 So what's the sweet spot? You've marinated in the research and the issues. What's the sweet spot between freedom to bear arms and eliminating the unnecessary death? Is there a law? Is there a tax? Is there a bringing people together to just talk about it?
53:38 Speaker 01 I think bringing people together to agree, obviously, would be...
53:43 Speaker 02 It's hard to get people to agree on anything these days.
53:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, because tragically, we've been waiting, and this is a responsibility of both parties in US government. There has never been a moment when we've been able to agree, even on access to guns. Again, online access gun shows and background checks. So even starting there, separate from an assault weapons ban, my daughter, with Congressman Dean Phillips, when we were walking around at the congressional building with many families from around the country who'd gone through great tragedy, primarily due to school shootings,
54:26 Speaker 01 I was so impressed by my daughter talking to a very conservative congressman. And he said, you know, assault weapons, that's never going to happen, never in our lifetime. If you want to talk about background checks, you know, maybe we'll eventually, you know, that's a conversation we can continue to have. How can we... Have more restrictions to protect people because no smart, safe gun owner has ever had a problem waiting 14 days to access a gun. No hunter has had an issue with that, right?
54:58 Speaker 02 Yeah.
54:58 Speaker 01 So why suddenly can anybody walk in to anywhere, go to a gun show and get a gun? And, you know, even a minor and all the issues that have happened. And so this man was very confronting with my daughter. She was 17 at the time. And he was saying assault weapons, there aren't more, which is always the case, you know, there aren't more deaths because of assault weapons, which is an insane concept and untrue. But he started combating her with his facts to teach the little girl about why that's never going to happen. And she said, okay, I hear you. I have one question. This is your place of business, right?
55:43 Speaker 01 And he said, yeah. She said, in this town is your place of business? Washington DC? He said, yes. She goes, and you want to be safe when you go to work, right? He said, yes. She said, do you think I have the right to feel safe when I go to school? And he said, yes. She goes, okay, it's interesting that DC has an assault weapons ban.
56:07 Speaker 02 And I can't bring an assault rifle to your work.
56:09 Speaker 01 Yeah. So there is an assault weapons ban at the home of our country.
56:15 Speaker 02 Wow.
56:15 Speaker 01 But our country is not protecting its children with the same.
56:20 Speaker 02 Do as I say, not as I do.
56:22 Speaker 01 So I think as a country, we need to ask that question, right?
56:24 Speaker 02 That is a big one.
56:26 Speaker 01 Why is it there? Who started, how did that happen? Because assault weapons are safe? So it's, you know, it's, I was very impressed by her.
56:36 Speaker 02 That, what a smart little girl.
56:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:38 Speaker 02 You know, big girl now, but.
56:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, but.
56:40 Speaker 02 That's so clever. And she was very calm headed about it, too.
56:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, but it's, you know, it's the same conversation we are having as a country in every area, you know?
56:54 Speaker 01 Why? Because it's something you want with your own values. You want your own freedoms. You want your own freedom of religion. You want your own freedom of choice.
57:06 Speaker 01 But you want to make sure all Planned Parenthoods close, which means if you're in an underserved community, your mother, your sister, your daughter doesn't have access to free breast cancer screening or a birth control conversation to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. And so it's always confused me. And I feel like it's because it's money has been made on division in this country. And so we keep it instead of trying to figure out as a collective, how we'd be a far more successful nation.
57:47 Speaker 02 This is segue to your other big passion, reproductive rights.
57:52 Speaker 01 Oh, my other big passion?
57:54 Speaker 02 Well, I mean, yes. Well, you know, I actually did a little research on that. So by many metrics, Massachusetts has the best sort of laws and programs and policies for reproductive rights. And Mississippi has the worst. And there's a people in Massachusetts live about eight years longer than people in Mississippi. And there's probably a correlation. But I know you spend a lot of time and you spend a lot of your sort of personal equity promoting these reproductive rights. What are the most important things we should be focused on? And what exactly does that mean to you, by the way?
58:36 Speaker 01 Well, the freedom to choose is at its core, of course. You know, if we are going to protect constitutional rights, then I dare say the freedom of choosing your religion is also the freedom to make choices based on your personal beliefs, your religious beliefs, what you want to do in your healthcare choices. But right now in this country, I think if every American, just as they're looking at how the impact of gun violence in this country is affecting longevity, we should look at
59:22 Speaker 01 You know, what it has meant even just in these recent few years, and the question of overturning Roe versus Wade, what that choice has meant in women's mortality rates in this country. And these are not women who are trying to get...
59:41 Speaker 02 Connect those dots for us.
59:42 Speaker 01 So... So, women, and there are many cases in Texas court right now where the bans are so strict. Many women, and many lawsuits throughout this country, are dealing with the fact that they have gone to an emergency room with what they thought was a healthy pregnancy, and they've had an issue in their pregnancy for various reasons, you know, any of us can imagine. Their water breaks early, they're, you know, having cramping. They go to the emergency room.
1:00:26 Speaker 01 Now, that woman, that individual, who has two little babies at home, this is her third pregnancy, she's so excited. It's a girl, she wants this baby. For example, a gentleman shared his story. That was one of the most heartbreaking stories I heard as he sat in the ER and the doctors, based on the abortion ban laws and the strictness of what they were allowed to do and not do, sat while that woman bled out and died. So, that child was lost, and that woman's life was lost, and that man was powerless
1:01:07 Speaker 01 because laws threatened the doctors and threatened anyone's medical ability to take care of this woman in the moment. And so, it's, there are tragic stories around this country. And the stories that we're hearing are the same conversations we've had. You know, what about in the case of sexual assault, in the case of incest? You know, if a child should have the right to not carry that baby forward, a 12-year-old? And we've heard those stories, and we've heard those stories. And Governor Beshear shared this story in Kentucky. A very brave young woman shared her story.
1:01:50 Speaker 01 Preceding the last presidential election about her own tragic assault and inability to have access to an abortion. And then the legalities of crossing state lines now, or helping a friend or a family member to have access. But we're not talking about mortality rates in women who want to have that child. And that, for anyone who has their own personal opinion about abortion, while demanding what another individual should feel or think spiritually, religiously, personally, emotionally about
1:02:33 Speaker 01 the best care for that child, which I dare say is unconstitutional, based on the freedoms we are supposed to uphold in this country. But if you want to deem your opinion, you also then have to consider that you, your daughter, your sister, may, in the pursuit of a beautiful and healthy child being born, lose that child's life and your own life because of these strict laws. And not enough people are talking about it. And it's been a disaster in healthcare. And for communities that are underserved, so many OB-GYNs are leaving those areas because it feels, or those states.
1:03:17 Speaker 01 And so now you don't have anybody, when you're dealing with breast cancer, cervical cancer, STIs, wanting your child to be taught about healthy birth control. I mean, that's never made sense to me.
1:03:34 Speaker 02 You know, I generally try to limit the topics here on things that make an impact on how long or how well you're going to live. And you rarely think, well, reproductive rights, is that a longevity strategy?
1:03:47 Speaker 01 Hundred percent.
1:03:48 Speaker 02 It is. And it has a massive impact on, in an immediate way, to the mother, the pregnant mother, but also the child. And by the way, also how the child grows up. There's a very interesting study that came out of the University of Chicago, was written about in the book Freakonomics, that there was this...
1:04:08 Speaker 02 Odd drop in the murder rate in America. For some reason, the murder rate dropped by about 50%. And they tried to understand why. Did they bring on new police? Or were there a new set of laws? And they traced it back about 18 years to Roe versus Wade. Why? Because all of a sudden, a bunch of unwanted children weren't born. And those unwanted children tended to get less care, less education. They're more likely to grow up and be, break the law and commit murder. So I like to just stick to the data and not get too much involved in,
1:04:50 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:04:51 Speaker 02 You know, the very passionate things that you work in. But from a very black and white point of view, where my interest is, is these are laws and norms that we ought to be, and conversations we ought to be having because it makes America a healthier place that's living longer and better.
1:05:09 Speaker 01 Exactly. And for women's health care, which is massively underfunded in this country, famously underfunded. Planned Parenthood has been the most remarkable service, particularly in underprivileged areas for women's health care. Less than 4% of their work has ever been around unwanted pregnancies or abortion. And so this idea that these are abortion warehouses is insanity. No one's looking at the data, looking at the research, and considering how many women's lives have been saved because there was access to an OB-GYN. There was access to that kind of health care.
1:05:52 Speaker 01 They were able to get access to a mammogram, discover cancer early. I mean, this is, we're in a massive crisis, and we're battling over the wrong things. And it is, you're absolutely right. It's about taking care of each other on a longevity level. I mean, the two issues we've just talked about are about mortality.
1:06:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, at the end of the day, I'm black and white. And in a very related, I'm Writing a book now on health adjusted life expectancy. So where in the world people have the longest lives in full health? And I'm working with this very clever group of scientists out of the University of Washington. They have an ocean of data from 130 countries. And I've interviewed a number of the top ones. And the question I always sort of end with are, what are the policies that are going to have the biggest impact on healthy life expectancy in nations? And they all say investing in young mothers.
1:06:54 Speaker 02 The number one thing, not medical research, not walkability, not new drugs. It's making sure young mothers are, or mothers of childbearing age are educated. And they have healthcare service. Why? Because if they have babies who are healthy, who grow up and they get an education, they're also grow up to be productive. They grow up to make better voting decisions. And you get this upward spiral that two or three decades later has a massive impact. We see that very clearly in Costa Rica, for example, which has one of the highest
1:07:39 Speaker 02 life expectancies in the blue zones. And also, women were treated equally. Daughters of farmers were being educated in the late 19th century. And that was unheard of. So.
1:07:53 Speaker 01 And the moral pain of a young pregnant girl in this country is actually the conversation that's not being had, which is.
1:08:11 Speaker 01 They're absolutely right to be terrified about the fact that they won't have services, that there are more cuts in those areas than ever before, that God forbid that child ends up in, what, the foster care system? How do they have access to food? How do they provide or have any healthcare for their baby? And so if you want to give women the opportunity to feel supported in even having that child, having the ability to have that child, that's a whole other conversation that there's no work and support for in this country. That's beautiful to hear.
1:08:50 Speaker 02 There's a big faction who want to see Americans having more babies. Our economy needs it if you do project out, and if we want more babies, they need to be healthy. So I want to turn the conversation to our favorite topic again, which is you.
1:09:05 Speaker 01 You!
1:09:06 Speaker 02 I said it first.
1:09:07 Speaker 01 You said I could compliment you at the end, so don't make sure I have five minutes at least.
1:09:12 Speaker 02 We'll get to a mutual interest at the end. So around here, we give extra points for vulnerability, so I'm going to ask you to be vulnerable here.
1:09:25 Speaker 01 And how are the points doled out?
1:09:28 Speaker 02 There is a reward for vulnerability. Very coveted reward, award that you'll get. We'll soon displace that Academy Award as the main spot in your mantle. So I want you to think about the lowest point in your life, the toughest time you've ever had, and tell us as much as you can about it. But even more importantly, tell us what you learned from that.
1:10:01 Speaker 01 Years ago, I was at the mercy of...
1:10:10 Speaker 01 Someone I cared about going through an extreme mental health crisis
1:10:18 Speaker 01 and addiction crisis.
1:10:23 Speaker 01 And unlike other moments in my life that have had grief, or loss, or breakup, or, you know, the pains that we go through in a lifetime of loving,
1:10:37 Speaker 01 this was an experience where
1:10:41 Speaker 01 the person was clawing and scratching on their way down. And the person that they could target that on was me.
1:10:56 Speaker 01 And I was hearing some of the cruelest things I'd ever heard. And I really, I was really suffering. And I'd never been married yet. I didn't have kids. I, you know, I was very, it was at the age where I was so independent. It's still the era of trying to prove to your parents you don't need them. But definitely girlfriends were my savior at this time, truly saved me. But that lowest moment
1:11:39 Speaker 01 was my reckoning about being brave. That lowest moment was a moment where I knew that this experience would truly take me down. And interestingly, people started giving me advice by saying, "Go see my friend who's a wonderful doctor. And go talk to this brilliant person who can help. Go call that friend who's my friend who's been through something similar." And I made, I think, four calls in a 24-hour period. And I got the same advice from all four.
1:12:23 Speaker 01 And it was medication. I was told like if I took this pill, you know, I could-
1:12:29 Speaker 02 Was it the same medication?
1:12:31 Speaker 01 No, like it was either to be able to sleep-
1:12:33 Speaker 02 Oh, wow.
1:12:33 Speaker 01 Because it was such an upsetting time. Or to take some anti-anxiety or to, you know, a painkiller or- But no one had advice I could learn from. The idea was if you numb yourself, you'll wake up in a week and there'll be distance from this individual. You can't help. In fact, if you get close, it will be more dangerous. And that already was a wonderful gift because it was like, whoa, what's happened to us that like numbing is the only advice? To how do I handle this level of pain?
1:13:17 Speaker 01 And so I remember being low, like on the ground, like when you're, you know, in a ball crying, what's my life and who am I?
1:13:26 Speaker 02 Because this guy or woman, I don't know, was just so insulting to you to relieve his or her own pain?
1:13:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, insulting and threatening.
1:13:35 Speaker 02 Okay, so you were scared.
1:13:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, very. So it was a very, it was a dark moment in myriad ways that I can't share details of. But I, but the pain of it gave birth to relying on ancestors and angels and-
1:14:02 Speaker 02 Friends.
1:14:02 Speaker 01 Pulling up my bootstraps, you know? Because even though the friends are talking, like you can't hear them when you're in so much pain, like when you're in severe crisis or fear, there's like moment, this was a moment like that for me, which was very unusual because my friends always kind of got through to me. But what was amazing was faith, right? No matter how distant you are from it, or how much it is a part of your story, this was a moment where I was turning to kind of an ancestral longing.
1:14:37 Speaker 02 Interesting.
1:14:38 Speaker 01 To have faith in something greater, whatever that looks like to you. Deep prayer, meditation, you know, asking for help on a deep soul level. But when I say like ancestors, angels, like really calling out to grandparents and great grandparents, saying, "I don't know where I am. Help me."
1:14:58 Speaker 02 By the way, that's big in Okinawa. Ancestor veneration with longest-lived women. Every day, they remember their ancestors.
1:15:05 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:15:06 Speaker 02 And although, you know, my scientific Dan Buettner, you know, always questions that, I cannot ignore that ancestor veneration, that remembering where you came from and tapping into that was undeniably a characteristic of helping them get through life and also thrive in longevity.
1:15:26 Speaker 01 A million percent. And something I hadn't relied on, right? In our American culture, as much as I liked being raised Catholic and loving the rituals and ceremony in early childhood. I really did like them. And I was very fascinated by a particular saint who was my confirmation saint. And I, you know, I was interested in those things as a little girl. But I hadn't been as connected to really call upon it. But something in that did ground me in a, "Look where you've come from. You are so much larger than this" moment, right? And I didn't need to like,
1:16:11 Speaker 01 I didn't need to be bigger than the person. I didn't need to be better than the person. I didn't need to shame them. They were in pain. And they were out of control and at that time unsafe for me, right? But... What I discovered was like, I come from a long line of survivors. And this is the beginning, by the way, I was a very young woman. So this was just the beginning of those moments. But when it's your first moment of feeling you can't survive something, you know, that it's too hard, it is amazing what you learn. And, and I did kind of wake up to calling upon ancestors.
1:16:52 Speaker 02 That's a great answer.
1:16:53 Speaker 01 Of course, calling upon friends too.
1:16:55 Speaker 02 Did Uncle Archie Ball McLeish give you a poem?
1:16:58 Speaker 01 Not him. Where's that poem? You owe me a poem still, buddy. But a couple of great female elders, I really felt with me.
1:17:09 Speaker 02 That's a great answer. I've never heard anything like that, but I, I believe it.
1:17:14 Speaker 01 There's data on it, guys.
1:17:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, sometimes you may have to transcend your friends. Okay, so we're, we're winding down because I know you, you're gonna go take care of your, your, your parents, but I have two sort of activities or themes I want to touch before we leave. So you and I connected over a story. I wrote a story for the New York Times Magazine about the island where people forgets to die. And it, it profiles a, an Icarian young man who comes to America and finds the American dream and a Chevrolet and a house in the suburbs and ends up with terminal lung cancer. And he goes back to Icaria to live with his mom, he and his wife, and eat this very
1:17:59 Speaker 02 simple peasant food and reconnect with his religion and reconnect with his friends and drink the wine. And he lives to 104. And, and when I ask him, you know, as a great scientist, you know, what's your secret to longevity? He just goes, I don't know. I guess I just forgot to die, which turns out to be the, the most right answer. And, and to, and to really sum up the whole ethos of Blue Zones in a way. But what attracts you to that story? And talk about it a little bit.
1:18:36 Speaker 01 Well, for those who haven't read it, it's such an extraordinary article and piece of writing, and now I get to compliment you. Your work is a massive inspiration to me. And the doc series for Netflix, you know, I've talked to you about this, but you're the empathy as the witness and the listener who's carrying us through this journey is what just penetrates me and teaches me because we are not these people, but they
1:19:16 Speaker 01 are our future. And we're bearing witness to how we can choose to live and love or ignore the signs. And you, in your brilliant wisdom and your incredible research and empathy and storytelling, are giving us the roadmap to forgetting to die, to a wife, a life well lived, to a journey filled with deep friendship and a purpose-driven life that's connected to responsibility. Like, all those keys of doors that you're opening for all of us. And we can go, oh, my God, did you see that doc series, that guy Dan Buena? Oh, my God,
1:20:01 Speaker 01 that's amazing. I want to go to a Blue Zone for like, five days. Do you want to go? That is one option. But another option is to feel it. And so that article opened it up for me because just in the title itself, you know, where people forget to die, this idea of that is how I'm caregiving right now. And I've told you, you know, I think of you all the time in my caregiving right now, you know, and how I'm helping my mom. Instead of, Mom, Mom, Mom, you can't do that. Mom, that's not safe. Okay, you need your inhaler right now. Oh, you need the, you know, instead, it's like, let's watch
1:20:43 Speaker 01 a movie. Oh, my God, you can, no, no, no, this TV is not working. It's crazy. We've got to walk to the living room. You know what? Oh, Mom, I'm having a heart. Let's go outside. I need some fresh air. Do you need fresh air? Let's go get some fresh air. How do we keep them moving and walking?
1:20:59 Speaker 01 It planted a seed, and we met years ago at Lake Minnetonka. And your work planted a seed where, when my mother was in a health crisis, I made the choice, because of that inspiration, to say, "Okay, well, she was diagnosed with a lung disease from environmental exposure to pesticides, to glyphosate specifically, like Roundup being one. And they don't know enough about it in terms of how to help you." And so I had asked a specialist here at UCLA, "What is one thing I can give my mom?"
1:21:42 Speaker 01 He's like, "We know that walking will help, you know, her lung capacity and the scarring on her lungs." So I was like, "Okay, walking." And trying to get my mother to walk was excruciating when she was first diagnosed. By the way, end of this story is a great one. Seven years later, she's made three movies, done a couple TV shows. We wrote a book. She's now writing a memoir. And they gave her three to six months at that time. And so she didn't listen to them.
1:22:11 Speaker 02 She forgot to die.
1:22:12 Speaker 01 She forgot to die. But the gift of the experience that we shared in our book, and then we made a book out of it.
1:22:19 Speaker 02 Say the name of the book, please.
1:22:20 Speaker 01 The book is called Honey Baby Mine, which is something my mom used to sing to me and say to me as a child. And we started walking, and she hated it so much. So I thought, "What can give her purpose to walk?" So I said, "I tell you what. I'm going to record on my phone as we walk. And I'll just pick a new topic every day. And we'll be archiving this for your grandchildren, stories they may never have heard." That gave her purpose and responsibility. She had a vocation, and she's an actor, so she loves telling stories.
1:22:58 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:22:59 Speaker 01 And I said, Mom, I've never asked you so many things, and here we are this close, and I never asked you, what was it like going through a divorce with my father? Why did you fall in love with my dad? They divorced when I was like, three years old, so I never knew these things, you know, what made you fall in love with him? What makes you laugh? And she would ask me things, what, oh, my God, I don't even know, what's your favorite color? What makes you happy when you wake up? What brings you joy? And so we started having these conversations. We chose to share our conversations in hopes that would inspire others to ask each other the questions.
1:23:40 Speaker 01 Because isn't it amazing, we can spend a lifetime together with these friendships? And never know each other.
1:23:47 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:23:48 Speaker 01 And in having those conversations, she forgot to die.
1:23:51 Speaker 02 That is so beautiful. It's such a quintessentially Blue Zone story. Say the name of the boy. This is one you and your mother wrote together.
1:23:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, and it's called Honey Baby Mine, written by Diane Ladd and her daughter Laura.
1:24:04 Speaker 02 Laura, Laura, Laura.
1:24:07 Speaker 01 What's the word in Okinawa that they, that the women elders look for, your ikigai?
1:24:16 Speaker 02 Ikigai.
1:24:17 Speaker 01 Ikigai.
1:24:18 Speaker 02 Like the creepy looking guy at the end of the bar?
1:24:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, ikigai, your ikigai. So here's my question for you, is, as a boy, now that you've literally broken every record and cycled the world and our greatest teacher in all these areas of Blue Zones and longevity?
1:24:38 Speaker 02 I'm just gonna put this on a loop and play it in my living room.
1:24:39 Speaker 01 So, as a 10-year-old Dan.
1:24:46 Speaker 01 Did you have an ikigai? What was your mission? That you think you've carried?
1:24:52 Speaker 02 I can tell you, I'll back into that question. I remember very clearly at 14, I was a Catholic. Still, I'm a Catholic. You know, I don't go to church as much as my mother wishes I would. But I remember sitting in church in Roseville, Minnesota,
1:25:08 Speaker 02 and seeing the, especially the family in the front pew. I was pretty sure he was our State Farm insurance salesman. He wore like a lime green leisure suit, and he had his hair combed over like JFK. And his three sons sitting next to him had also similar suits on, hair combed over like JFK. And the mother dressed in some sort of white doily thing. And the daughter looking like a copy of her. And saying to myself, "That's not me. I am going to do something else, and I'm going to get out of here in a big way." And not out of disdain.
1:25:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:25:47 Speaker 02 Just seeing that, what is not me?
1:25:50 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:25:50 Speaker 02 And, you know, by the time I was 15, I was already traveling to Spain, and traveling to Africa, and Hawaii. And, you know, I made, before I did any of this Blue Zones, I was, you know, I bicycled across continents. And so, I didn't, I couldn't articulate the ikigai, but I had the general impetus of what would lead me there.
1:26:18 Speaker 01 Yeah. That's so beautiful. That's really interesting. My mother is the same. In a tiny town in Mississippi, unknowing, she had to leave to be a storyteller. Like, she had to leave. She had to go somewhere else and tell stories, but had no idea what that would look like.
1:26:38 Speaker 02 I think it's the ill at ease and the courageous ones that leave. And they're no better than the ones that stay home and become the heroes in their own community.
1:26:47 Speaker 01 That's right.
1:26:48 Speaker 02 And those people are often, I think, happier, or at least more content.
1:26:52 Speaker 01 And... As George Bailey would teach us, "It's a Wonderful Life," maybe my favorite movie. And Jimmy Stewart as George Bailey, he tries to leave. He wants to get out of there. He doesn't want to be the insurance salesman. But destiny always plays a part. And he ends up staying and he creates the most loving, nurturing, forgetting to die, blue zone community. In fact, I would dare say he turned Pottersville, if anyone watches It's a Wonderful Life, into a blue zone.
1:27:25 Speaker 02 I'll go along with that. This goes to show you, no matter where you live, you could be in a blue zone. You make your own blue zone.
1:27:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
1:27:33 Speaker 02 So Laura, you are a wonderful human being and a great friend. And I cannot thank you enough for sharing your wisdom and your stories and your vulnerability. And thank you, thank you, thank you.
1:27:44 Speaker 01 I'm so happy to be here and have this conversation. All of us watching all share one thing in common for sure, which is we love Dan Butte.
1:27:55 Speaker 01 And we are so grateful for all that you are teaching us. And so here's to more. Now, my new fantasy, I started with, I want to go to a blue zone. Now I'm like, I gotta go to all the blue zones. So I've become an addict. I want to learn, learn their ways.
1:28:13 Speaker 02 That's a good addiction.
1:28:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:28:14 Speaker 02 Thank you, Laura.
1:28:15 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:28:19 Speaker 03 I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.
1:28:27 Speaker 04 We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.
1:28:31 Speaker 03 I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?
1:28:33 Speaker 04 There were 32,000 pounds of them.
1:28:36 Speaker 03 32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.
1:28:42 Speaker 03 Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.
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1:29:32 Speaker 05 avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview." So go to groundnews.com/rz. That's G R O U N D N E W S dot com slash R C for 40% off unlimited access vantage plan. Get it yourself or gift it to someone who'd rather know than not. Use my link, groundnews.com/rz, so you get the discount and they know I sent you. If you're a fan of learning all sides of history, then Ground News is for you. One more time, groundnews.com/rz.
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