Is My Fantasy Ruining My Love Life?

After years of struggling to stay present during sex, one caller wonders if her fantasies are keeping her from the intimacy she longs for. The more she depends on fantasies of domination and humiliation, the more she questions what they mean about her and her relationships. Esther helps her explore the difference between fantasy and flight, and how sexual patterns can become a language for deeper emotional needs. What happens when the fantasy is not the problem, but the place we go when it feels too risky to be fully seen? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Relationships are undergoing a massive cultural shift. We've never been more connected, and we've never felt more disconnected. We crave understanding and collective experience. We want to be seen but we're optimizing for isolation. Esther believes that the only way to improve our relationships is to remember the basics of being together. This is why she's inviting you to join her for an immersive experience: her international tour, Strangers, Friends, and Lovers. Tickets are selling fast. Get yours now at estherperel.com/tour. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Esther Perel?

  In this following session, we discuss sexual assault. And I want you to know this before you listen.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Hi, Esther. I'm a 30-year-old woman going through a lot of life transitions. The worry that I have and an issue that I've faced in previous relationships is I have a pretty intense need for domination sexually and sexual humiliation in order to have an orgasm and sometimes in order to even get turned on at all. And it's been an issue in previous relationships with partners, even ones who've been willing to try it out, not being able to fill out that role, even if they're loving sexually generous in other ways or just being totally uncomfortable with it, which I have empathy for because I've been in a situation where I've been asked to sexually humiliate someone and I really didn't like the experience.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  So I know it's just sort of a preference thing to an extent, but I have this kind of feeling that I'm walking around dating with like an asterisk of like, yeah, I think I'm a great partner in a lot of ways and I think I'm really open to love. But unlike a lot of my friends who seem to be able to just have orgasms based on just like good technique, I seem to need this other thing and I don't know exactly what it's about, whether it's like more about the domination humiliation or if it's more about just feeling like someone has control. I mean, I can trace it to early feelings in childhood of sexual humiliation desires, but I also had a fair amount of sexual trauma in my late teens and early twenties.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  So I don't know how much that's connected. It's this complicated mess and feels like a barrier to intimacy because very, very few times have I been able to have an orgasm with a partner where I'm not relying on a pornographic video playing in my head that doesn't even involve me or my partner, but just totally third parties and sexual humiliation. And I don't ultimately want that either. I'd like to be present with my partner.

• 2:16Esther Perel?

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• 3:30Esther Perel?

  Why bring the tears?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  I think like a feeling of feeling very daunted by this issue that's been recurrent for like my whole adult life. And no matter what I try, it doesn't seem to be resolving.

• 3:48Esther Perel?

  Tell me more.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  I think maybe the tears also are just from frustration. Like I'm like, why can't I just have sex like my friends?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Where it just seemed really easy for them. Why does sex seem so hard when it's something that I want so much? And I feel so important. Why is it something so hard? I was thinking about this a lot, like since Sunny in the Voice noted, and what is sort of my question? I don't know even how much of it is about the kind of like kink, like submissive kink. And I don't know how much of my frustration is with like that sort of tendency and how much is about feeling like like I can't give over control in a sexual situation, like, which is ironic. I actually, it's like I'm holding so tight. Like I won't be present totally in the moment. I'll always be running fantasies and like, I can count on one hand probably the time that somebody else has been able to give me

• 4:41Speaker 01

  an orgasm without me like participating and getting myself off ultimately. And that's frustrating. I just like want to be able to have. And I've had a lot of sex. And like, and so I'm like, I want it to be something that I can just get into and enjoy and have it come naturally. And I've had sex with a lot of women where I've seen them, where I've seen it be easy for them. So I'm like, it's not even like, it's just an easy for men thing.

• 5:13Esther Perel?

  But when you participate,

• 5:17Esther Perel?

  just to pick up on this for a moment, because you think there's something wrong.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:22Esther Perel?

  May I correct that?

• 5:26Esther Perel?

  Why? What is this myth about it should just happen naturally? Naturally means effortlessly. Naturally means the other person knows exactly how to touch and where and how and the pressure and the friction and this and that versus I kind of know my body.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:48Esther Perel?

  And I'm at ease to participate. And it actually is probably, since you ask, what do normal people do? This is one of the things that normal people do. Men to women, women to women, them to them. People participate.

• 6:08Esther Perel?

  They touch themselves, not just their genitals, as they are being touched. It increases the sensations. It increases the pleasure, the arousal. That is one, just very small little detail here that if we can undo the falseness.

• 6:30Esther Perel?

  It's a good thing. It doesn't mean there's something missing. It doesn't think it's hard for you.

• 6:37Esther Perel?

  It doesn't think everybody else can just come because they sneeze.

• 6:42Esther Perel?

  So one thing I'm picking up on is there is your experience and then there is your beliefs and your ideas that accompany your experience. And I'm not sure if the rigidity is in the act. I mean, of course, they go together. Or in the thinking, in the cognitions that are accompanying this of what it should be and what normal people do. You know, this is the most important sexual question is, is this normal and what do other people do?

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:10Esther Perel?

  So here is one of your answers. This is normal. But when you talk to yourself, you don't use the word participate. You think I need to help.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  I think I do. I'll do it.

• 7:23Esther Perel?

  I'll do it because you can't, because I give up. And it has so many negative associations.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:32Esther Perel?

  That could usually clean up.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I think it's important to stop and sort of think about like, why is that my feeling too? Because I think part of it comes from a sort of a frustration where I'm like, I can get people off. So what's the problem? Like, yeah, I'm like, I'm, who knows who's faking it?

• 7:55Esther Perel?

  I was thinking this exact same thing.

• 8:00Esther Perel?

  Your certainty suddenly, but then you caught yourself. You did.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  But at least, you know, in like the relationships where I know the person, I'm like, I'm not having a problem. Like I get a lot of very good feedback. And so that frustrates me more. Where I'm like, well, if it's so easy for me to figure out what somebody wants to apply the right pressure.

• 8:26Esther Perel?

  Because it's about presence.

• 8:30Esther Perel?

  It's not about technique and it's not about genitals. It's about presence. And what you're telling me, which is more important actually, is I have a real question about my flight.

• 8:46Esther Perel?

  I actually invoke all kinds of scenarios because I can't really be there as me. And I have a question, I hear you say, that early childhood experiences or late adolescent experiences have something to do with that.

• 9:05Esther Perel?

  I'm not talking now about the specific kink. I'm talking about the checking out, the dissociating.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:15Esther Perel?

  So of course, when you please yourself, you at least have to put some effort into being there in your body.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:24Esther Perel?

  Inside of you. And therefore, you're more able to bring yourself to orgasm than if somebody else does it and you're not there.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:35Esther Perel?

  Because half of it is happening all in your head, hoping that the plot that you are invoking is going to be exciting enough that it's going to kind of make you squirt.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:47Esther Perel?

  But it doesn't always go this way. So tell me what, because that's also a set of questions you've already asked yourself. What may have led me to this? I'm not talking about the way I use domination. I'm talking about the way I check out.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Right, no, because I remember even like, I feel like in very early college with my first kind of like serious partner, I did need a sort of a fantasy to come, but it was a fantasy of us. So there was a, there was a time that that was, it wasn't total flight. Or maybe it's partial flight, but like at least it wasn't escaping to like an entirely different world. I don't know. I just had like a lot of.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  The way I'd say it is just like a, like a fair amount of sexual trauma. Like, it's like, it's not any, any one thing that I could point to. It's more like, um, putting myself in like dangerous situations, um.

• 10:49Esther Perel?

  Like?

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Okay, like, um, the scariest one probably is, well, two scary ones involving drugs. One of my friends like ran into me and like took me home and had sex with me when I was like so far gone. And, and like in my head, looking back at that moment, I like, I see myself as like a puppet. Like it's a, it's a kind of like a horrifying image to see from the outside, what I must have looked like. And then like another time traveling, like, um, just doing cocaine with a relative stranger. And then going home with him when my friend went home to our hostel. And I was sort of like, why did I, why am I here in this situation? This is kind of scary.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Um, but also my like first partner in college was accused of sexual assault by various people. Like in instances, like before we got together. And that was like a very confusing and traumatizing situation to navigate and trying to figure out what. When I was so new to sex still, sort of like, what's, what is she doing to me? Is she doing anything to me? So having to sort through that kind of lack of trust of who this person is are some of the more salient examples. Um, maybe those, I mean, I'm, I'm sure there are other more minor ones, but those are the ones that come to mind.

• 12:14Esther Perel?

  They're all women?

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Um, no, the first two were men and then women, yeah.

• 12:20Esther Perel?

  But what they share in common is that you put yourself into dangerous situations.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:28Esther Perel?

  And you know it.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:32Esther Perel?

  That doesn't justify rape.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:36Esther Perel?

  And being completely knocked out and a dead body that is being invaded is, that's not having sex with someone.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Right, but it's, but it's putting myself in these situations, I think partly for like attention and, and wanting care or some, you know, wanting care and attention.

• 12:56Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  And going at it this very sideways way.

• 13:01Esther Perel?

  Going at it in one of the ways that many young girls or young women have sought.

• 13:13Esther Perel?

  It's partly personal and partly cultural and collective. And many women carry inside of them the memories of all these situations, wondering what the fuck was I doing?

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:28Esther Perel?

  And hopefully at some point they mature and they realize there's other ways to get care and attention.

• 13:36Esther Perel?

  Right? What you're saying is I can't be there. I want the care and attention and at the same time I can't be there. I can't be neither inside of me, neither with you.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:50Esther Perel?

  So what do you know about this?

• 13:54Esther Perel?

  Our emotional history often gets inscribed in the physicality of sex.

• 14:02Esther Perel?

  What we experience, what we do, where we go, the scripts we create are often the archaeology of our sexuality. But our sexuality is the archaeology of our emotional life as well. Certainly when it has as much psychological meaning as it has for you.

• 14:26Esther Perel?

  Not talking about the acts themselves, but what, what plays out there? You could say, I like domination and I like humiliation, but it could mean five different things.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  I think I just like really don't trust that people will be able to give it to me. Like I remember one time, maybe this was like in my early twenties, having sex with someone. And the thought kind of popped into my brain. I was like, do I have sex with people in order to re, like, remind myself of the boundary between them, me and them? Because I feel so far away from this person, like this, like having sex is making me feel the least connected to this person that I ever have. And I don't, I don't think I feel that way right now in my sexual relationships. But that certainly, I think there was a moment when it almost felt like an act of like aggression almost. Cause I was like, felt anger.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  And so it's like, being able to be in a sexual situation where I'm like, I'm not present. And yet I'm going to be able to like give you an orgasm and give you an amazing experience. And like all the while, you're not even gonna know like where I am and, and what's happening with me. There was almost like an aggressive element of that, I think, which wasn't even necessarily directed at like whatever person it was. Um, more just like the idea of a sexual partner. Cause I remember in college, there was this, this one person I had sex with. It was, I think, I think to this day, the only person who's been able to make me come without me participating.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  What I remember about that was like, just the feeling that this person has total, like I'm very safe. But this person also has total knowledge of what to do and like, is just going to like guide me step by step. And like take control. And it wasn't even like a very dominating situation. It wasn't like in terms of kinkiness. It was more like this person has the lead. When I feel even like, um, like a trace of like insecurity in my partner or feeling that they hesitate or that. Something that I say that I want, if they have like even a micro reaction to it, that's like negative or.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Which I have gotten also, I think, I think also some of it is like, I've gotten negative reactions from partners who are like frustrated that they can't make me come on their own. Or think it's kind of like a kink that they, like that they, they don't like it, that I'm uncomfortable with it. Um, that one experience, I'm like, well, that was great, but not everyone's like that. And then I think she just was sort of a, I don't know, like everyone who's ever had sex with her was like, that's the best person I've ever had sex with. So I think she just had, really, really knew how, what to do. Um.

• 17:20Esther Perel?

  But that doesn't answer the question we asked. Why do I check out?

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:28Esther Perel?

  What is my experience around needing to basically leave my body? And therefore, if I leave my body, I give myself over to the expert. And there are not many experts on many things.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  True.

• 17:46Esther Perel?

  So you, you're putting yourself in a position that is bound to be frustrating.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:54Esther Perel?

  Participating, you think is a problem. It means that the expert is dysfunctional and that you can't check out enough. And therefore you need to actually be an active participant and you find that resentful. So that's, that is an intriguing proposition. When I make love or I have sex, I find participating a drag.

• 18:18Esther Perel?

  That kind of is a contradiction in terms.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, that's, that's a connection I've never made before. It's really interesting, um.

• 18:33Esther Perel?

  Which one?

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Giving myself over to somebody is kind of the same as completely taking myself away from somebody. But they're both flight in a way.

• 18:54Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. This goes.

• 19:07Esther Perel?

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• 19:52Esther Perel?

  answer questions, and even book appointments, even when your team is offline. Money is on the line. Always say hello with QUO. Try QUO for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com/begin, spelled Q U O dot com slash begin.

• 20:13Esther Perel?

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• 20:57Esther Perel?

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• 21:24Esther Perel?

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• 22:09Esther Perel?

  go to Shopify.com/ESTER to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/ESTER. Go to Shopify.com/ESTER today to hear your first...

• 22:25Esther Perel?

  Talk to me about flight.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, I just had like a lovely date two days ago with this guy who was really nice, and he kept making like, "Look me in the eyes." And I was like, "No, don't make me look you in the eyes." Which isn't always, that's not always the issue, but that's the truth. I was like, "Whoa, I'm having a really strong reaction to this." I don't know. I mean, what do you want to know about flight? I don't know, I don't know where to go with it.

• 22:56Esther Perel?

  You just did. He says, "Look at me in the eyes." Basically, he says, "Be here with me."

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:03Esther Perel?

  Focus.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:05Esther Perel?

  Be present.

• 23:08Esther Perel?

  Be aware that you're breathing in this body of yours. And you go all anxious.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:16Esther Perel?

  You're laughing now, but it's an anxious laughter.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:21Esther Perel?

  And you kind of say, "Oh, my God, oh, my God." "Please, please, please, take me out of this."

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:28Esther Perel?

  I'm trying to understand that with you.

• 23:33Esther Perel?

  I mean, it happens also when you lose your train of thought. It's another version of how we actually grounded, right here, in your thoughts, in your body, in your breathing, in your connection to someone.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:53Esther Perel?

  And what you're saying is, there's loads of moments when I actually am in flight. So I'm just asking you, what do you know about a part of you that is quite dominant? That's called flight?

• 24:14Esther Perel?

  Which is a different question from yours saying, "I love to be dominated." "What am I going to do? Because not that many people are into it."

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:25Esther Perel?

  That, I don't think is the right question for you.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:28Esther Perel?

  It's a partial question.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  I'd say I could be quite avoidant in general. For example, people are often telling me I should meditate. And I'm like, "Well, that's my worst nightmare. Why would I do that?" I do find that presence to be difficult in a lot of situations. Maybe like in conversation too. Like, I feel like often I'm like, trying to ask the next question before someone's even answered it, which is a way of sort of moving more quickly through the interaction than makes sense.

• 25:05Esther Perel?

  Give me an example of moments or situations in which you find yourself focused and you drop in.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  When I'm running, I am feeling my body and appreciating what it can do and like, listening to what it needs and slowing down, speeding up.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  And I think like, especially if I'm running, like being very present in the natural world around me and feeling like the, you know, whatever the temperature is on my body and feeling the wind or the rain or whatever it is, that's probably a moment of, where I'm feeling a lot of presence and I feel a lot of emotion. A lot of emotion often when I'm running. So that's one example. And when I dance, especially like salsa or something, it's a little bit more like scripted partner dance. Like, that's a moment where I can really get into like a flow and feel very present. And then it's just about following and, but it's not following, I don't feel really anxious about it. It's like, I know what to do before I do it.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Like, I feel present, I think, when I'm like, having a really good back-and-forth or conversation with my friends or like, me and my roommates have dinner together a lot and sometimes we'll just get into this flow that it's the only place I want to be in the world and everyone's just bouncing off and it's just getting funnier and funnier. So, yeah, I guess like, there's moments both like alone, where it's sort of running or, you know, it's me and nature, but also sometimes when I'm with other people and we just hit the flow, but I do feel really present and I don't feel anxious and I don't feel like I'm taking ahead to the next thing. I just feel like, I don't know, I'm not thinking that I want to just get this over with. I'm like, I just want to be here.

• 26:57Esther Perel?

  You gave three. One is when I run. My body is in full motion. I'm releasing endorphins. I'm energized. But I feel the weather on me. I feel the wind, the sun. I'm not just like, you can drive and be in a state of hypnosis, right? You can run and not know that you're running for a while because you're in a bit of a hypnotic state. Self-induced. Then there is when I dance. Just the same. My body is moving. I have to be attuned to someone else. Therefore, I need someone who gets me to be attuned.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:40Esther Perel?

  And then when we are in conversation and there's a kind of a container and I'm being kept in the frame. All of them keep you contained in a frame with clear structure, clear boundaries, certain energy. It's good. It's good. But you didn't answer me. What...

• 28:10Esther Perel?

  You know, sometimes people check out enough flighty, enough challenge to stay grounded because their brain braces.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:24Esther Perel?

  They're hyperactive. They are scared to be in one place. There's a host of different reasons. And sometimes they're from life. Sometimes they're from their own constitution, brain constitution for that matter. Sometimes it's experiences that they've had that made dissociation necessary. So it covers a range. And I don't want to imply any. But what do you know?

• 28:59Speaker 01

  I mean, I know like with my ex, this came up a lot. Because first of all, on a sort of a micro level, it's like whenever we walked, whenever if we were like to take a walk somewhere, she would be happy to go a block or two without talking. And I would be like, "Duh, duh, duh, duh." Like, I feel like sometimes I need to fill every moment of conversation. Sometimes it's because, I mean, in situations where it's like with people I don't know very well, it's because I'm like, the interaction's not going well if there's silence, so I have to fill it. And then with people that I do know well, I'm just bored. We need to start talking and generating some content because otherwise, what am I going to do? Just sit here and look at the trees?

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Which is exactly what I want to do when I'm running.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  And then with her, it was like, both in sort of like our relationship trajectory, but also in like my own life, I was always trying to think like years and years ahead and plan things out. And I have thought to myself since the breakup like, "Maybe it's good if you're starting to have this feeling of I want to plan the next step and the next step and the next step." That's a sign the precedent isn't going so well. Or maybe you need to refocus your attention on what's happening right now because that's actually going to be the thing that defines the next step, not your plans. I don't know if that answered your questions.

• 30:23Esther Perel?

  What do you think?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  I don't think I.

• 30:27Esther Perel?

  It's alright, we'll ask it again in different forms and different, you know. Do you please yourself?

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Sexually or?

• 30:37Esther Perel?

  When you're alone?

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:41Esther Perel?

  Does it ground you?

• 30:43Speaker 01

  I don't know, because in a way, yes, because I'm like, here is my body doing this thing that's feels good and I know what to do. But also, I am always running a fantasy with other people involved, so there's also a discordance, especially after I come. It's not like I'm like, yeah, but I'm kind of like, well, that it was sort of me, but it was sort of not me. Like, it doesn't, it feels still a little bit like, yeah, like it's not real life.

• 31:22Esther Perel?

  Are you always going for the same scenarios?

• 31:24Speaker 01

  No, but different versions.

• 31:28Esther Perel?

  But of the same theme?

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:30Esther Perel?

  Okay, and the theme is what? What's the plot that gets you off? If you tell me, I fantasize far and wide and rich, and it makes it interesting, it brings me back, it's compelling, I like my stories. Um, no, they don't necessarily have to do with me. That's what fantasies are, they're often not just about us.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:56Esther Perel?

  But you're not at peace with it.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:58Esther Perel?

  You're not at peace with the act of needing to do it, and you're not at peace with the kind of stories that you find yourself telling to get yourself off. So, I'm gonna just have to be more detailed in my questions.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, the fantasies are about like, women being used by multiple men, like as sexual objects in various scenarios. Um, and I think like, it's not so much that I feel like so disturbed by the fantasy. I think it's more that I'm like, why am I not in it? I think that's more what's upsetting. I think if I were like starring in it, I would think, okay, this is just a fantasy, but I'm like, why, like, why am I not even in this scenario?

• 32:45Esther Perel?

  And what's the turn on when you see the women being used or gang banged or?

• 32:54Speaker 01

  I've asked myself that question. It's, it's hard to know it, it's, it's so, such a physical reaction. And also, also, I think I'm, I'm very like, turned on by like rape.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Uh, it's actually not something that I imagine in my head as one of my sexual fantasies. Like, it actually is like, not something that, that I enjoy fantasizing about, but like, like sort of like reading mentions of it can like really stir something in me. And that does disturb me a little bit, even though I understand it's, it happens. Um, but so what is the turn on? The turn on is, I think, again, like, total lack of, um, having to do anything, control, just sort of sitting there, being there.

• 33:49Esther Perel?

  Can I ask you something? Because there's two, there's a few different versions of this. One version is, in my fantasies, I'm never hurt.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:01Esther Perel?

  The rape is not hurtful. It serves a purpose, it carries that meaning. But a fantasy in and of itself is usually

• 34:15Esther Perel?

  to increase arousal and pleasure. It's a function of any sexual thoughts.

• 34:23Esther Perel?

  They become disturbing when we've had those experiences for real, which means they do hurt.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:33Esther Perel?

  They inflict upon us, they linger inside of us, they demean us, but not for the fun. And sometimes, we save ourselves in those very real situations by finding something

• 34:51Esther Perel?

  that is, or we think is arousing, because anxiety and arousal live side by side. So, what sometimes is perceived as arousal is also anxiety.

• 35:03Esther Perel?

  And then it becomes

• 35:07Esther Perel?

  repetition, compulsion, basically. I reenact a scenario that once was very, very painful, and I try to turn it into a source of pleasure.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:18Esther Perel?

  Or it has gotten kind of, there's been a wire crossing

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 35:24Esther Perel?

  between pain and pleasure. Sometimes, the fantasy is exactly what you described. That is what many, many people, women in particular, will describe. I don't have to make any decision, I don't have to be responsible.

• 35:41Esther Perel?

  I can just be, and the plot plays itself. And the distinction is made by how you feel about it. If you feel, eh, I get this icky feeling afterwards, like, it lingers inside of me, it connects to other things, it has all kinds of underground threads, then it has a different meaning than when you say, a woman that many men want at the same time is very desirable too. She's irresistible, they all want her. That's the subject matter in the fantasy. The meaning of it is not, these guys are all hurting her.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:26Esther Perel?

  And you are the one who can tell me which one it is. And there's other versions, but these are two main ones.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's clear to me that I know that as soon as like something intrudes, some element of like coercion or rape intrudes in the fantasy, that's what I, it's no longer fun. So I don't like, like that doesn't.

• 36:52Esther Perel?

  I have never known a woman, since we're talking as two women, who wants to be raped, never.

• 37:02Esther Perel?

  Okay, I have met many women who have rape fantasies, because the rape fantasy is about a ton of things, but rape.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:12Esther Perel?

  In fantasy, you're the author. In fantasy, you have the agency. In fantasy, it's your imaginative verb. In a fantasy, you're not being hurt.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:24Esther Perel?

  Nobody's really forcing you.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:27Esther Perel?

  The forcing is, the insistence, the forcing, the coerciveness is matched by the irresistibility, by the I am so wonderful, wanted, desired, that so many people are standing in line.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:44Esther Perel?

  So, I know the distinction. I have never met a woman who wants to be raped, let's really be clear about this.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:54Esther Perel?

  And sees it as a sexual turn on. Let me finish the sentence.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 38:01Esther Perel?

  When you watch the coercion, when you watch the gang bang, when you fantasy, you watch it inside your head, and you're the observer.

• 38:12Esther Perel?

  You have any question that says, interesting, how come I've never been an actor in my own plot?

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:19Esther Perel?

  But the other thing is, what is it about it? And you say, one piece is, I don't have to do anything.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:27Esther Perel?

  Now keep going. Why is that so important?

• 38:31Speaker 01

  I don't have to do anything because I feel like I have done so much for other people that can I for once not have to do anything? And it's not that I don't enjoy that, it's just that I think the lack of, and it's not reciprocity in terms of people trying, but

• 38:52Speaker 01

  it's, it, it's like builds up as this like bitterness.

• 38:57Esther Perel?

  And when you think about I've done so much for other people, you think of what?

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Like sexually, I don't feel unbalanced, I think, in other parts of my life, uh, but I pay a lot of attention to what people respond to, I, I just think I, I, you know, often really put a lot of effort and care into making sure that somebody is experiencing a lot of physical pleasure. And so that it feels like, can I for once just sit here and have somebody do that for me?

• 39:34Speaker 01

  And I, and then I felt this guilt of like, well, like I know I need to tell people what I want, but I think.

• 39:41Esther Perel?

  But do others tell you?

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Often not. Like, I mean, sometimes, but it's very rare that that's the, I think usually I'm just like, I'm listening to the breath and, you know, trying different things and, you know, asking what feels good along the way and, and getting there. And it's not somebody giving me a step-by-step roadmap, so why, why should I have to do that to somebody else? Like, why is someone else not, I think, like, taking the time to really exclusively focus on me?

• 40:14Esther Perel?

  Which would be a very special version of you care.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:22Esther Perel?

  You care enough to really be curious about me and to wanna know what I like and where I take.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:31Esther Perel?

  The sex is just the language in which the care is being expressed.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably.

• 40:40Esther Perel?

  I mean, we can leave the word "just" out of it. I'm not trying to minimize it at all. Where does the humiliation come in?

• 40:49Speaker 01

  That's the part that I think is a little...

• 40:53Speaker 01

  I mean, I could make the connection to like those sort of more traumatic experiences and call that a bit of a repetition compulsion, yeah. I don't know how to tease that out. I don't know how to know if that's the connection. That is a erotic history.

• 41:11Esther Perel?

  When you say, "But this is the same thing that I fantasize about", it becomes sometimes, and only you would know if that's the case. Fantasy becomes a way to make something that was forced upon us become something that we choose.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Right. But I would like to get rid of it.

• 41:34Esther Perel?

  Are you fixated on one very specific fantasy over and over again? Or do you have a range?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  I would, I mean, I would say I have a range, but they're all the same. It's just...

• 41:47Esther Perel?

  Gangbang one, gangbang two, gangbang three.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's just to change the, change the set. And the relationships. I mean, there's always a relationship of, of some kind of power involved, like, you know, boss or some kind of power balance.

• 42:05Esther Perel?

  And what happens to her? When you look at her?

• 42:11Speaker 01

  I actually don't look at her.

• 42:12Esther Perel?

  I'm asking you to look at her.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think when there's, when there's more of a plot, it's often like that character, her being sort of slowly induced into it, or it's like, not quite coerced, but sort of slowly pushed step by step into like being fully objectified. Like maybe initial reluctance and then, and then submitting, slowly submitting to the something that feels sort of like inevitable.

• 42:48Esther Perel?

  And that when it becomes inevitable, it's a force you can't resist?

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:54Esther Perel?

  But it steam charges her?

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Right, but it's not, it's, her pleasure is not in my mind.

• 43:01Esther Perel?

  What's in your mind?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  His pleasure there, the pleasure of the men

• 43:09Speaker 01

  is what's in my mind.

• 43:11Esther Perel?

  And then?

• 43:14Speaker 01

  And then he comes and it's over. He comes and then I come, and then it's over.

• 43:22Esther Perel?

  And she resents him? She thanks him? She is relieved she didn't have to think about her?

• 43:33Esther Perel?

  And focusing on him is like borrowing strength? Determination? Willfulness?

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Sometimes she thanks him.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  But like I usually just cut it out at that point. I'm not even, I'm not even, I'm not with her.

• 43:59Esther Perel?

  And you may know more if you spend a little bit more time with her.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:05Esther Perel?

  If you actually allow her to have pleasure that isn't just orgasm.

• 44:12Esther Perel?

  To participate not just by masturbating or by genetically masturbating.

• 44:21Esther Perel?

  To actually truly under your pleasure.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:31Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 44:43Esther Perel?

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• 45:27Esther Perel?

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• 45:50Esther Perel?

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• 46:34Esther Perel?

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• 46:56Esther Perel?

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• 47:36Esther Perel?

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• 48:21Esther Perel?

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• 48:33Speaker 01

  I think I get disappointed really easily by my partners. And maybe it's because I'm setting a really high bar. And then just as soon as they fail to meet some standard I've set out for them, I'm like, okay, that's it, never mind.

• 48:50Esther Perel?

  That has nothing to do with sex.

• 48:55Esther Perel?

  I mean, I'm saying it in a kind of a very stark way, but you know, I'm sure in your head you're saying, "And I'm not even asking that much."

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:05Esther Perel?

  So it's not at all that you're putting a high bar. It's that in your experience, I'm there for you, you're not there for me.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:13Esther Perel?

  And that is not just around sexuality that then gets translated. I know what you like, you don't even pay any attention. I show you care, you don't. And it goes on. So you tell me, what's the story of that?

• 49:36Esther Perel?

  Because once you know the story of that,

• 49:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:39Esther Perel?

  you know the story of I want one place where I don't have to do shit.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:45Esther Perel?

  They are there for me. I do so much for everybody all the time. And it's not just I do so much sexually and I know exactly how to please you and make you come. It's in my life, I have a sense of imbalance.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think less so in like, kind of,

• 50:08Speaker 01

  I would say less so in my, in my friendships, but certainly in my, in my romantic relationships, now that I think about it. And so that feeling comes up quite a lot, actually, of like, I listen to you, I do this to you, I da da da da da da da. And, and you don't understand me.

• 50:30Esther Perel?

  And family?

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Family, I'm the baby. So I kind of get to do it where I want. That's the weird thing. I'm like, I, I don't have much to be resentful of because I kind of, if anything, my, my strongest feeling about family is that I wasn't given enough responsibility and wasn't allowed to participate and help and

• 50:58Speaker 01

  it felt like I wasn't trusted with anything. And then I think, I don't know, I don't know if I compensate for that, my romantic relationships of being like, well, I'll be the one that sort of

• 51:09Speaker 01

  takes care of things.

• 51:11Esther Perel?

  That's interesting because I wasn't allowed to participate, but then in sex, when I do participate.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  I feel guilty, or?

• 51:21Esther Perel?

  No, no, you're not feel guilty.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm doing it wrong.

• 51:28Esther Perel?

  If you participate.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:32Esther Perel?

  Meaning?

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Not, not that I'm,

• 51:37Speaker 01

  my tactic is wrong, but that my, that I, I'm failing to please my partner by.

• 51:42Esther Perel?

  By depriving them of being the ones who can make you come. That is such a bullshit.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  But I think I've, people have reacted that way.

• 51:52Esther Perel?

  Yeah, then you tell them that they've been misinformed too.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:58Esther Perel?

  I mean, the amount of women who would have a much better time if they actually knew that participate is a major piece of the pleasure.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:08Esther Perel?

  Than this idea that you should just know and you should be able to give it and I should be a pillow princess.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:16Esther Perel?

  If you take one thing from this conversation, that piece is almost more important than many of the other things we've touched upon.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:30Esther Perel?

  You don't take anything away from anybody by participating, by being in your own body.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:37Esther Perel?

  You want to show, you show, you want to do to yourself, do to yourself, but the idea that there is an all-knowing, masterful, dexterous

• 52:49Esther Perel?

  lover on the other side.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:52Esther Perel?

  And maybe slightly different between two women because we kind of should know each other, we have a similar anatomy and so the gap should be not so big and all of that is there too, but it almost compounds it.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, totally.

• 53:09Esther Perel?

  Because if it's different gender, then there's less of an expectation that

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:15Esther Perel?

  we're alike. How can you not know?

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:19Esther Perel?

  Or we're alike. Of course I know.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  I think it's good to hear from someone that it's,

• 53:30Speaker 01

  that somebody's negative reaction to be voicing that need or desire during sex is bullshit. That I can say.

• 53:40Esther Perel?

  Well said, what I think is bullshit. That's the summary of our conversation.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  And I think, thinking about the link between sexual trauma and fantasy and I don't know exactly how to do it, but it's like, I know it's kind of there. And I don't know what the result of, of thinking about it more is, but.

• 54:04Esther Perel?

  It's important for you to know, actually, because in one instance, it's harmless. This gets you off, it isn't what it looks like, it means something very different. That is how fantasies often play out. And it's harmless.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:23Esther Perel?

  The other is not. The other is I'm stuck in something.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:30Esther Perel?

  And I don't, I would never imagine that I can answer that with you

• 54:37Esther Perel?

  in one hour.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 54:38Esther Perel?

  So that's why I'm leaving you with the question. It demands a little bit, a lot more.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:44Esther Perel?

  Careful on knowledge and understanding to, to know, because these things are very subtle.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:50Esther Perel?

  But you have a sense. You have a sense when you're in it, you have a sense when you come out of it. What's the sensation? What's the feeling?

• 55:00Esther Perel?

  You have a sense when it feels like you go back to a, kind of like going back to the scene of the crime.

• 55:07Esther Perel?

  Versus, wow, the erotic mind is so bizarre.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:11Esther Perel?

  Why would it turn the very thing that we fear the most into something that we actually get off on? Because coercive in fantasy is not at all what coercive means in reality.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  I think the take, a broad takeaway is like, this flight is, it's not just going to a fantasy in my head, but it's also refusing to tell my partner about that. And refusing to let them in and refusing to be vulnerable about what turns me on and what I need from them. And then allowing that bitterness to accumulate rather than,

• 55:50Speaker 01

  I guess, and I think maybe it's, it's like, right, just being open with somebody if they don't like that, that, that's none of my business. It's like, okay, I walk away then. If they can't handle that, there's no need to keep having that sexual relationship. I don't need to feel bad about myself that I can't conform to what they want.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  But it's very easy to feel like I'm just waiting around and for somebody to notice, notice me and take care.

• 56:20Esther Perel?

  I can't tell you and I resent you for not being able to tell you.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:27Esther Perel?

  I wish you would just know it.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:31Esther Perel?

  So I don't have to tell you.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:34Esther Perel?

  And then I don't have to fly, to be into flight.

• 56:38Esther Perel?

  And all of this is happening inside you.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:41Esther Perel?

  With someone on the other side who has zero clue.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:46Esther Perel?

  Or just me on occasion say, hey, are you here?

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:50Esther Perel?

  Or where are you? Or what are you thinking? Or where did you go?

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:55Esther Perel?

  Or are you okay? You know, because they sense something.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:00Esther Perel?

  By that moment, you're gone. And you're not gone in fantasy land by then. You're gone into relationship conflict.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Right, now I've gone in bitterness.

• 57:08Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes. And I think that distinction for you, what's emotional and what's sexual and how they each interplay with each other is really important.

• 57:22Esther Perel?

  Because you're so steeped in a sexual scenario, but what is being played out is your deepest emotional needs and issues. In the language of sex.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. This is going to be a lot to think about. Thank you so much.

• 57:38Esther Perel?

  Thank you.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  This was really wonderful.

• 57:40Esther Perel?

  Thank you very much.

• 57:47Speaker 03

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, that could be answered in a forty or fifty minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

• 58:29Speaker 03

  And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.