I Ranked EVERY AI Tool Overrated or Underrated (Claude Code, Bolt, n8n, ManusAI, etc)

Join me as I chat with Ras Mic to discuss the current landscape of AI development tools, evaluating each as overrated or underrated based on their potential impact for both technical and non-technical users. We particularly highlight Claude Code as "extremely underrated" and discuss how tools like Devin and CodeRabbit are changing development workflows. The conversation also addresses my controversial viral tweet about building profitable SaaS businesses with AI tools. Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 01:32 - n8n 06:35 - LindyAI 07:31 - Claude Code 12:09 - Devin/Code Rabbit 19:56 - Bolt/Lovable/Tempo 23:12 - Figma Make/Hostinger/Airtable 27:25 - ManusAI 30:10 - VAPI 31:08 - MCP 35:46 - Vibe Coding Profitable SaaS 51:11 - GitHub Key Points: • Ras Mic and I evaluate various AI tools as "overrated" or "underrated," including n8n, String, Claude Code, Devon, and CodeRabbit • They discuss the potential of MCP (Multi-Context Protocol) and its impact on non-technical users • They analyze Greg's viral tweet about building a $50K/month SaaS business using AI tools • Ras Mic provides a simple GitHub crash course explaining branching and workflow best practices Get Your Complete Financial OS at https://www.brex.com/sip LCA helps Fortune 500s and fast-growing startups build their future - from Warner Music to Fortnite to Dropbox. We turn 'what if' into reality with AI, apps, and next-gen products https://latecheckout.agency/ Boringmarketing - Vibe Marketing for Companies: http://boringmarketing.com/ The Vibe Marketer - Join the Community and Learn: http://thevibemarketer.com/ Startup Empire - a membership for builders who want to build cash-flowing businesses https://www.skool.com/startupempire/about FIND ME ON SOCIAL X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregisenberg Instagram: https://instagram.com/gregisenberg/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gisenberg/ FIND MIC ON SOCIAL X/Twitter: https://x.com/rasmickyy Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@rasmic

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Greg Isenberg?

  So today, we're gonna go over the AI tools that are people are talking about on X. And we're gonna talk about if it's overrated or underrated.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Okay, this is gonna be spicy.

• 0:11Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, we'll be a little spicy.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Like if NAID somehow adds an affiliate, I don't know if they have an affiliate, but if they do, it's over.

• 0:19Greg Isenberg?

  It's over, dude.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  Please tell me they have one. They make, oh, yes. They're going to make so much money.

• 0:27Greg Isenberg?

  For as of recording this, it's underrated, but we're gonna look back on this video in six months and be like, why were we talking about Metis?

• 0:36Speaker 01

  Claude code underrated, extremely underrated.

• 0:40Greg Isenberg?

  Which is crazy because it's, you know, it's all over my feed right now. Everyone's talking about it.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  I think, yeah, Claude code, if you're a non-technical person, is more daunting, but just, just try.

• 0:51Greg Isenberg?

  You're not gonna single prompt a 50K a month SaaS, but I do believe that we live in a world that it's completely possible to use things like Cursor, to use some of these tools, to develop something that you can make $50,000 a month for minimum.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  If there was any time to start something that has the slightest chance of being successful, there's no better time than today.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'll share my screen and, okay, we'll do tools. And you tell me, let's start. First tool.

• 1:35Greg Isenberg?

  N8N.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Overrated or underrated, Greg?

• 1:40Greg Isenberg?

  I think, uh, well, what do you think?

• 1:42Speaker 01

  I think underrated, only because if you know what you're doing, you can do well. But if you have like, you know, there's not an ounce of like, like if you don't use modern tools, like you're not a heavy Google Drive user, you're not on Slack always, or you're not like setting up automations, email automation, you haven't used Zapier before, then yeah, this is basically useless. And I think we've all been seeing it on Twitter. It's the new dropshipping. Like I actually have, like if any, it somehow adds an affiliate. I don't know if they have an affiliate, but if they do, it's over.

• 2:18Greg Isenberg?

  It's over, dude.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Like it's, please tell me they have one. They make, oh, yes. They're going to make so much money. So yeah, this is definitely the new Shopify because I see everyone talk about automation. So I think in that same sense, it's overrated, but I have a feeling you think otherwise.

• 2:35Greg Isenberg?

  Well, here's my take because you come at it from like a developer perspective. So you, you look at it and you're like, yeah, I can go out and make these, these charts myself. I'll just, you know, even if, even if you don't want to do yourself, you go to chat GPT, you'll get the JSON.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  And copy paste.

• 2:50Greg Isenberg?

  And copy and paste. But for the vast majority of people, they copy these workflows and they don't work for them or something's broken or they don't know how to do it. So I think for the vast majority of people, it's overrated.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 3:03Greg Isenberg?

  But I do think for like somewhat technical or technical people, it's underrated.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Now I get that. I call it non-technical and technical organizations. Like, so you might not be physically writing code, but like you understand like uh, technical concepts. So I do agree, but yeah, if they somehow like start promoting this and do what Shopify did, this is a billion dollar company. Um, I, we have the tab here. We're actually playing with it. You said, so basically spring, string or spring string?

• 3:34Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Sorry, I have the.

• 3:35Greg Isenberg?

  String.com.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  So they're built on top of Pipedrive, which is basically an any, a competitor, I'm assuming.

• 3:43Greg Isenberg?

  Exactly. So I feel like what String is doing, I'm not involved in the company in any way, but.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Do you have to disclose that a lot nowadays?

• 3:50Greg Isenberg?

  I don't know. The comment section is always like, oh, you're, because I just did a tutorial on String and people were like, this is a paid thing. And I was like, no, I literally messaged the founder like the night before. And I was like, I saw your product and I think it's really cool. And I actually had tweeted about that the future of automation is prompt to automation, just because I think that people don't want to sit and make workflows all day, especially like non-technical people.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Well, that makes sense.

• 4:18Greg Isenberg?

  So.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  And I can vouch that you probably message them because that's how. I hopped on the channel. You literally messaged me and I'm like, and I thought it was a scam at first. It was someone else. So I can vouch, but.

• 4:29Greg Isenberg?

  I messaged him the night before. He was like, I'm leaving to Europe for vacation.

• 4:35Greg Isenberg?

  But if you want to hop on tomorrow morning, let's do it.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  So founder mode.

• 4:38Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  I'm serious. Okay.

• 4:39Greg Isenberg?

  Anyways, point is, I think string.com, although parts of it are janky, like they need it. It is an alpha for.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, they, they do, they do mention alpha to their point. Yeah. So, yeah.

• 4:50Greg Isenberg?

  And by the way, I respect him in the tutorial he did with me. He basically was like, yeah, parts of it are janky. Like I respect founders.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Who are honest.

• 4:58Greg Isenberg?

  Of AI companies that are saying like some stuff doesn't work all the time. Point is, I think that like, if you start using things like string.com and you start creating these automations, like so much is going to unlock in your brain for how to like save time, make money. That I think string.com is actually underrated. And I hope that, you know, the N8Ns of the world.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Actually implement this?

• 5:20Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  I think it'd be, it'd be very powerful if they did. And I don't see why they couldn't. They, they're, they're so profitable.

• 5:29Greg Isenberg?

  Real quick, I need to tell you about something that's helping me sleep better at night as an entrepreneur. I was running multiple companies with money scattered everywhere, zero spending visibility and making growth decisions pretty blind. I knew there had to be a better way and my friend told me about Brex. So I switched and now I have mission control for every dollar. Spend management and visibility, virtual cards for my team and earning cash from the same day treasury product. I was leaving so much money on the table, but not anymore.

• 6:09Greg Isenberg?

  I have a financial operating system for our businesses to make decisions so I can spend smarter and move faster. And it's been a total game changer. I'm loving Brex so much, I reached out to them and asked them to sponsor the pod. If you're building something real, you need a complete financial operating system like Brex. It'll help you sleep better too, and you can't be mad at that.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Lindy.ai seems like to be something similar, but fair to say it's a more marketing-esque.

• 6:42Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, N8N is marketing in a lot of ways. But Lindy, what I like about Lindy underrated is that it has the templates. So it's got like, I don't know, 100 plus templates that will be like, okay, you want to create like an automated email.

• 7:01Greg Isenberg?

  You know, email outreach agent, we're gonna go and you press a button, you can copy and paste that template and it works for you. And then, you know, for me, why I think it's underrated is I love seeing templates because it's like, it gives me ideas around like, okay, maybe I wouldn't use it for this use case, but I would use it for that use case.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so I need to try out Lindy for some marketing stuff because I'm terrible at that. I just don't want to make content.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Claude Code underrated, extremely underrated.

• 7:35Greg Isenberg?

  Which is crazy because it's, you know, it's all over my feed right now. Everyone's talking about it.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  But man, like I, like if I had to pick one for the rest of my life, let's say like AI just stagnates here for, for the end of time. And you told me cursor, which are all these tools and I should probably add that to the list. Who would you stick with? It's Claude Code. It is the first time and I, and I showed an example here earlier while we were chatting.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  You know, like, and there have been a lot of videos on like how to prompt, creating an MD file, like having a PRD and giving that as context and those skills are important and I'm glad people are thinking like that methodically, like, like a product, like a product person. I actually want to even talk about GitHub later, just give a simple crash course for, crash course for most people to understand how to use it. But Claude Code essentially showed us that they could build an agent that does all of that. So it'll have, it'll track its own task, it builds out a to-do list, it has its own plan, it executes on that, it writes tests. Most developers, I would say, or most indie hackers, I would say, hate writing tests.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  I hate writing tests, but it's necessary, uh, sometimes. But you should still do it. It's safe, right? You feel good about the product you're building. Claude Code does it automatically, right? So in my opinion, if you're a developer and you haven't at least even tried Claude Code.

• 9:03Greg Isenberg?

  What are you doing?

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and if, even if you're not pleased, just like, there's tons of tutorials. I'm sure Riley has a video, like Riley always has a Claude or Cursor video. Like, there's some video there, I would spin up Cursor, WinStryf, whatever you like, and use Claude code, because it's truly, in my opinion, the truest form of agentic coding we've ever experienced.

• 9:24Greg Isenberg?

  So for a lot of people who are non-technical, even going into Cursor is daunting. Your suggestion is, non-technical people should spin up something like Cursor, get Claude code.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  If it was easy, everybody would have done it, right? Like, honestly, like, I know it's difficult, and I speak from a place where, like, like, these tools are easy to me, but I just, I think, you would do yourself a disservice to not try. At least try. And if you get stuck, guess what you could use to figure out what to do next? AI. Right? So, yes, the tools are not built for, uh, non-technical people, but I would still use it. And one thing that's exciting too about Claude code, is they released, they also released an SDK, so, a lot of, like, the AI platforms can now use Claude code's agent instead of building their own. And I was at the Claude Code conference, and when I was talking with their team,

• 10:23Speaker 01

  they essentially were like, "Yeah, we're gonna advise, like, a lot of these AI agent, like, especially coding agent builders, to just use our agent, because, in a respectful sense, they're basically, 'We'll smoke you.' Like, our agent will always be better." Right? And I think Claude has kind of proven and won, and owns the sphere of, like, programming, so I wouldn't be surprised if all the vibe coding tools, and like, any coding tool, like Devin, CodeRabbit, the Lovables, the Temples, the Bolts, Figma Make, Hosting Your Air Table, all of them, anything regarding code, I do see it in your future where they probably just implement all this, because why go against researchers who are now valued at, like, what, a hundred million dollars a year?

• 11:04Speaker 01

  So, I think, yeah, Claude code, if you're a non-technical person, is more daunting, but just try.

• 11:10Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, so you're under, yeah, I agree with you, by the way, underrated for both technical people and non-technical people.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:16Greg Isenberg?

  Somehow.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Because once you get it, it's, and like, there's this, I have a little graph here, I mean, there wouldn't be a Ross, Mike, Greg video if there's no graph. And I would put like Claude somewhere, Claude code somewhere here. Where it is difficult, right? It is difficult to use, it's not the cleanest UX, they want you to use a terminal and the terminal can be terrifying. But there's nothing like it. So I would put Claude code right here.

• 11:44Greg Isenberg?

  By the way, you know what we should add to this list? This is the last one. I can't believe we didn't think about it.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  What did I miss?

• 11:50Greg Isenberg?

  MCP.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Oh, no. You know, you pissed my people off.

• 11:59Greg Isenberg?

  I know, I pissed thousands of people off with my takes on MCP, but we'll get to that towards the end of the episode.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, so, and then there's these new class

• 12:10Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  of tools.

• 12:11Greg Isenberg?

  I haven't used Devin, so.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Devin and CodeRabbit.

• 12:14Greg Isenberg?

  Okay.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  So I would basically, I would say these two are like the closest thing to an actual assistant. So Devin and CodeRabbit are meant for you to build projects from scratch.

• 12:28Greg Isenberg?

  Show me, show me Devin and CodeRabbit.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can, so I'll start with Devin because I've been actively using it. So, so Devin looks like this, and first you think, oh, this is like, you know, any of the vibe coding tools. But it's actually meant to like be integrated with like an existing codebase. And here's the powerful thing, there are three powerful things about Devin. First, they have this thing called DeepWiki, which basically is like you can add like whatever codebase is in your GitHub. Right? So like you can imagine for like someone building a serious project, you connect your repo. And then, I don't know how the AI does it, but it contextualizes your entire project and breaks down exactly how it works.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  And I can't explain to you how valuable this is for anyone building something serious. You might not even be technical, but reading this document will actually help you understand how this system was architected, right? Like, for example, by the way, for those looking at this, this is like an app I made for a few friends. And essentially, what it does is it helps you create Apple passes for like your community. And it breaks down here how passes are created. And it'll tell you here, "For Apple Pasket Web Services Implementation, Device Registration, Pass Update, See the web..." So it knows that I used an external service, Apple Pasket, and it tells me if I click here, I can read more about it. And then there's diagrams explaining

• 13:58Speaker 01

  how the APIs work, what the flow is, like what endpoint each, like for example, device registration endpoint, it tells me it's this one right here. Shows you even the back and forth, like for anyone in an organization, or even like maybe a small team, like three or four people building something serious, this alone is worth however much Devon is charging. So this is number one. Number two, and this is also one of my favorite features, is you can like start a session and you can basically tell it to either fix a bug, add a feature, and you can run multiple of these. But here's the, I think here's what's special about this, is they have integrations.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  If I go to Settings and Integrations, you can integrate Slack and Linear. And like in your Linear ticket, like let's say you have a PM write out all the features. And this is where I think, yes, it's for software engineer teams, but even a non-technical person in a team can use this? Like imagine you have a detailed spec on Linear on what this new feature needs to be. You can literally add Devon, "Build this", and it will take all the Linear information and it will start to build a feature. And then it'll create a PR on GitHub. And I can show you one where I had an issue and I asked it to fix it. And I can literally, can I click here? It literally wrote the PR. And mind you, files changed. It's one simple change.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  It was just removing this line. But I spent hours trying to figure out why is this not working?

• 15:34Greg Isenberg?

  We've all been there.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  So like, and like the PR is detailed, like there's reviews. I also use CodeRabbit as well. And then it shows my Versal deployment and then I merged it in. So it's a different class, but might I say probably the most useful, like the Devins and the CodeRabbits. And CodeRabbit is somewhat similar, like it does reviews and stuff like this. I don't know if they fully have this type of feature. Uh, but I would say they're sort of in the same realm and they're actual assistants. And this for me, like if I was running, if I wanted to build something serious and I was working with two, three people. I think something like this can actually be used by a product person who maybe knows how to write like a product document.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  And they can ship features using Devin and I can review the code. And that's what a lot of my work has been at, at like now, I, I review more code than I write, to be honest. Like I'll, I'll let Clarko do its thing. I'll let Devin review, like do something here. And I'm just trying to understand what it's done and if it makes sense. If it makes sense, I'll let it, I'll merge it. If not, I hold it back. So, um, and they have like a, I think a, you pay $20 one time and then it's pay as you go. So, you know, just try it out. $20, little fun. I think it's underrated. Um, it's not for everybody, but you won't know till you try.

• 16:55Greg Isenberg?

  I think that's fair. And CodeRabbit?

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. So CodeRabbit is in the same realm, like these are like the assistant agents. I haven't given it a full spin. But where I've used CodeRabbit before is when you're doing these PRs, pull requests. And I'll explain it when we get into like the mini GitHub crash course, it reviews your code. And there's actually, maybe I can find the tweet, uh, code with, so there's this YouTuber called Code with Antonio. Super G guy. He is like the reason why most dev YouTubers no longer do like four or five hour tutorial videos. He's just the best at it. And we've all decided that he just runs this space. And what's interesting is he tweeted this, he said,

• 17:41Speaker 01

  "In the last ninety days, I released three courses, which CodeRabbit reviewed, seventy-seven pull requests, left forty-two comments, found sixty-six issues, and left sixty-one suggestions for me." Can I even say that I developed solo anymore? Just install it already?

• 17:56Greg Isenberg?

  Damn.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  So, and it's, and it's, and the thing is with CodeRabbit, what's cool is it'll identify an issue, and let's say, because someone, I can already imagine someone's like, "But I'm not technical." It'll give you a prompt, to give whatever agent you're using to fix it. Context, code snippet, and everything, right? So, like, and when I tell you that Antonio is a G, like, if I, like, I just need to show you the stuff he builds, Greg, because...

• 18:23Greg Isenberg?

  I feel like I'd appreciate it.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  He built a lovable clone the other day. Like, and he does this himself. Like, full-on two-billion-dollar business, he built it himself. Like, and he goes line by line. So like, if you're someone who wants to learn how to code, like, he literally takes you, like, like, this is what? Ten hours?

• 18:43Greg Isenberg?

  And it's free?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  And it's free, yeah. It's literally, like, it's free. Like, he gives you everything. And he, and he, and he talks pretty slow, so you're not gonna miss anything. He's not a fast talker like me. Like, so if someone like this, who's, and all his videos are, like, ten hours, uh, what's this one? One hour forty-six. This is actually his shortest video. Eleven hours, eight hours.

• 19:08Greg Isenberg?

  Dude, is this, this is crazy.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and this is all free, bro. Like, this is all free. Like, he, like, we've, I told you, as like, like, developer YouTubers, we have all decided that we will never do a video like this, because you don't beat this, right? So, if he thinks it's changed his workflow,

• 19:29Speaker 01

  like, sixty-six issues, especially in a production codebase, like, this is serious, right? Like, I know vibe coding is exciting, and you could build your own project, but if you plan on having real users, which I hope you do, security is something serious you have to talk about. The, you know, your project actually working, users' information being safe, payments being safe. Um, and yeah, so I would say the CodeRabbits and the Devins of the world are super underrated.

• 19:54Greg Isenberg?

  All right, let's move on. By the way, we should give a disclosure. You do work at Tempo.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  I do work at Tempo, so I'm biased. You know, I get a paycheck every two weeks.

• 20:04Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  But with that being said, what do you think? Actually, I'm curious. I put Bolt, Lovable and Tempo all in one line, even though I think Tempo is slightly different, but maybe that's a biased talking.

• 20:15Greg Isenberg?

  I haven't used Tempo, to be honest.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:17Greg Isenberg?

  So I can't rate it, but so I'm leaving that out of there.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:26Greg Isenberg?

  To me, both Bolt and Lovable are very similar.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:30Greg Isenberg?

  So, I mean, if you haven't tried Bolt and Lovable, it's underrated.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:35Greg Isenberg?

  If you have tried Bolt and Lovable,

• 20:40Greg Isenberg?

  it's overrated if you don't know how to prompt properly, and it's underrated if you know how to give, prompt it and give it context.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. I think like anyone who's used Bolt and Lovable seriously will start to appreciate like how difficult it is to build software. Cause like there's a certain level you reach and it starts to get difficult, right? So to me, they're underrated in a sense where that initial joy everyone experiences when they prompt something and like result shows up.

• 21:16Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Is like, I've seen it and like a lot of people like it's, it's, it's amazing to see people experience that unlock. But then it gets to a point where you want to take it really, really far. I actually think the next big wave of businesses are infrastructure companies. Like your super, I mean, super bases are killing it, but like your super bases, your convexes, like these backend as a service companies that will basically handle all that nitty gritty stuff and like can easily connect to some of these vibe coding tools. I think those are the, the big, big business plays. And that's where like, you know, anyone who says, oh, we need to replace, like AI replaces engineers. Now you need engineers to build that.

• 21:55Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Cause that stuff is hard and there are even certain things that even Claude Code, as amazing as it is, can't do. But I would say for what it unlocks and what it's done, and I think how it's inspired folks, I think it's rated fair. I think the people who love it, love it for a reason.

• 22:15Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  And if you haven't used it and you use it, it feels like a new world.

• 22:18Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. And then in terms of like, is Bolt better or is Lovable better? I think. It goes down to like, you know, is Excalidraw better or TLGL draw, right?

• 22:28Speaker 01

  That's how I feel about Cursor Windsurf. I know I didn't put it here too. Like, I get it all the time. Which one's better, Cursor Windsurf? And it's like, they both release updates at such a pace, just pick your camp and stick with it.

• 22:41Greg Isenberg?

  I also think like, there's nothing wrong with prompting both.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, like you could literally have both, right? So I agree with you. I don't think there's like a notable, because it's always like, I feel like it swings in pendulums. Like, one week Bolt is better, the next week Lovable is better, the next week this is better, that is better. And I, I think for the most part, unless there's like specific features that one has that the other doesn't, I think as a non-technical person, you're living.

• 23:12Greg Isenberg?

  You want to move on to number seven?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. So these are Figma Make, Hostinger, Airtable. I haven't tried and I probably will never try, because these are companies that, I think Figma, doing it makes sense.

• 23:25Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, explain, people don't even know.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Figma is like the designer toolkit, right? Designers.

• 23:32Greg Isenberg?

  They're going IPO.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're IPO. And is it a smart thing to buy it IPO? Because Circle, you know, I read on Google, oh, you're not supposed to buy it IPO. That's when the investors dump it. Circle went like Forex, but this is financial advice, so maybe we'll talk.

• 23:46Greg Isenberg?

  I'm actually a Figma shareholder. Full disclosure.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  This guy's cooking.

• 23:51Greg Isenberg?

  Full disclosure, you know? But I keep it real. I'll be honest with Figma Make. I think it's overrated.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so too. I think, do you think it was more so for optics? Versus like, they actually want to like, maybe compete with the Temples, the Bolts, the Lovables? Like, because to me, it's like, I didn't think they had to do that.

• 24:13Greg Isenberg?

  I mean, I remember when I sold my company to WeWork. It was, it was a mobile app. And WeWork needed plays like that, because they wanted to be valued as a tech company, right? So before you go IPO,

• 24:31Greg Isenberg?

  it's really, really important to be like on trend.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 24:36Greg Isenberg?

  And that adds to like the, you know.

• 24:41Greg Isenberg?

  The valuation and the excitement of whatever it is you're doing. So my guess is that, you know, I don't have any inside information about Figma, just to be clear. Like, I'm a small shareholder via, I invested in a company, that company got bought by Figma and I got some shares.

• 24:59Greg Isenberg?

  So I know nothing like inside about it, but that being said, like, I would imagine that they're like, oh, wow. The Bolts and Lovables are crushing it, Tempos are crushing it. You know, how do we get a little of that pie so that, um,

• 25:15Greg Isenberg?

  so that the market gets excited about our IPO?

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Makes sense, makes sense, yeah. So that, that seems like Hostinger has one too, Airtable has one too. And I mean, if you want to have one too, you can go on code on Tony's video and follow his thing. So I definitely think like, I don't know, do you think anyone can come in this space right now and be as big as the Bolts and the Lovables? Like, cause like, it just seems like every week there's a new one.

• 25:42Greg Isenberg?

  Well, yesterday, I think it was leaked that Lovable is raising at a $2 billion valuation.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, kudos to.

• 25:52Greg Isenberg?

  Totally. And we talked about investing in Lovable, you remember?

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:56Greg Isenberg?

  And we didn't, you know?

• 26:03Speaker 01

  I told, I told one of my bros about it and I was like, yo, I think they just raised $2 billion. I was like, at the time, I think it was this much. And he was just like looking at me like, bro, what are you doing? Just like, man, at the time, it just, you know?

• 26:19Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  But kudos to them, actually, you know, stellar execution.

• 26:23Greg Isenberg?

  100%.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Like just world class. It's, you know, irregardless, like one thing I will say, and I think we share the same testament.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Competitor or not, no other person or not, I genuinely just love seeing people win. I love like excellence winning.

• 26:37Greg Isenberg?

  That's what I like. I like that about you.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, like there's no like, I don't beef no, we're just here to, you know, do great things. So it's like, I love like, you know, as much of a like, you know, competitor or, you know, whatever they are like, excellence is excellence, man. And, and they've executed and it's been inspiring.

• 26:55Greg Isenberg?

  And the pie is, the pie is huge, right?

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Everyone can win, man. Everyone can win. I'm a, I'm a big believer, we all can win. Nobody has to tear down nobody to win.

• 27:03Greg Isenberg?

  That's right. Yeah, that's right.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  So yeah, I I don't even, I'll be honest, I haven't used Figma Make, I haven't used the Hostinger one or the Airtable one. Although Hostinger is a great VPS provider, uh, you wanna, I think they even have a template to host your NE8, N8N. So like, cool for them, but I haven't used any of these and probably won't.

• 27:24Greg Isenberg?

  Cool.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Uh, so, how about Manus? I know you, your big, the biggest video on the channel is a Manus video.

• 27:29Greg Isenberg?

  Not the biggest, but.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  It was one of though.

• 27:31Greg Isenberg?

  Uh, yeah, it's a top video, you know, cause I think Manus was one of the first, like, agent.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it felt like, oh, this is like a Jarvis, like it could do stuff for me, you can leave it.

• 27:41Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, and you were able to watch it browse in real time?

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:47Greg Isenberg?

  Which was also really cool. I still use Manus a lot. I think it's underrated.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  I agree. I think I've used it a few times, like for research stuff. And it was pretty good. Now, my only concern, like if I was part of the Manus team is, you know, with OpenAI, with OpenAI's deep research and all that stuff, you think they'll go into that direction, or you think Manus is a specialized tool enough where it's like, there's still a place for them?

• 28:11Greg Isenberg?

  I think for, as of recording this, it's underrated, but we're gonna look back on this video in six months and be like, why were we talking about Manus?

• 28:22Speaker 01

  I feel you, yeah, cause like it's, like, I mean, Sam said it in like the most, you know, gangster way I can ever think. He's like, just make sure you align your growth with us, otherwise we'll steamroll you, right? So, it seems like with Operator and with like deep, deep research, even perplexities pivot to like a browser, like, you know, I, I wouldn't wanna, I wouldn't wanna battle those guys.

• 28:48Greg Isenberg?

  No, I will also say with Manus is, I was using it the other day and it was like, connect your Instagram.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Nah, they need to.

• 28:59Greg Isenberg?

  I was like, I don't think so. The Chinese government, you know?

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Let me just get your information.

• 29:05Greg Isenberg?

  No, okay. Yeah, so be careful on Manus with, you know, giving your information.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I genuinely like I, I actually have like, like not a theory, but like a hypothesis that every site should just be sign up with Google.

• 29:20Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Like done with the email password stuff, because if you sign in with Google, there's no way you can really do anything heinous with my information because Google will take care of that.

• 29:28Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  They give you just enough. So yeah, having to give IG access is pretty wild.

• 29:34Greg Isenberg?

  Also, like we added, you know, on idea browser.com, the new thing I'm working on, we added sign up with Google. It was just email before and then we added sign up with Google. I was surprised. Most people sign up with Google.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it's, it's just because like even for myself, like maybe this is me being a developer, like the fact I like, I have to give you my password and remember it and you know, like password could potentially leak. I think a couple billion passwords leaked not too long ago versus with Google, click, click, boom, done. Right? So I'm very like, most apps I build will probably only be sign in with Google. And.

• 30:09Greg Isenberg?

  I like that.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:10Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, Vapi.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  This is more you. I've like, I've heard like it's a voice agent or something like that, right?

• 30:16Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Vapi, oh.

• 30:19Greg Isenberg?

  So it's voice agents. That's what it is. So it allows you to create voice agents.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 30:25Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. I think it's, most people have never used it. So it's underrated. Like the fact that you're able to like.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Oh dang, 400,000 calls.

• 30:37Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah. The fact that you can create workflows that allow you to like create a Twilio number and then start calling, you know, add an Excel list of like, or Google Drive list of all these phone numbers. And then reach out to them and have convert, you know, have basically an intelligent, you know, voice agent speak to these people, I think is.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Nah, this is underrated. I just pinned this. I'm gonna play with their API later.

• 31:07Greg Isenberg?

  Cool.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  Last but not least, come on, man. Come on, man.

• 31:12Greg Isenberg?

  Okay.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  You tripped the whole internet.

• 31:13Greg Isenberg?

  Show them the Theo. Let's pull up the Theo tweet.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Theo is not happy at all.

• 31:18Greg Isenberg?

  So Theo is like, you look up to Theo, right?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Theo is my guy. Like, I will say, he was one of the inspo's, like, one of the biggest inspo's for, like, tech YouTube, like, for dev YouTube. Like, his, like, and, like, I can, I can honestly, like, give credit where credit is due. Like, I grew a lot as aninge because of his videos. Where did he?

• 31:42Greg Isenberg?

  He tweets a lot.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Dang, Theo, he had me. Okay, so, let's see.

• 31:47Greg Isenberg?

  So, while you're pulling that up, I tweeted that I think that, and, here, once you, once you understand MCP, you never see the internet the same way. By the way, the context there is, I was talking about non-developers.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:02Greg Isenberg?

  When non-developers understand what MCP is, it's like a lightbulb moment around, wow, I can use LLMs in this way? That's all I was trying to say.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, yeah, I think, like, again, man, Theo's a very smart developer, but this is the classic case. And, Theo, if you're watching this, if I'm wrong, let me know, but this is the classic case of a developer thinking from a developer's mind. Like, I read this and I understood because I have a lot of, I would say 90% of my friend group are non-developers.

• 32:32Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  I spend most of my day with non-developers versus developers, aside from my workplace, right? So, I get what you mean when this blows your mind. Like, when a friend of mine on, I think it was Claude Desktop, set up, like, I think it was a Gmail connector or something, and he was able to ask something about his emails, blew his mind away. It felt like Jarvis to him, so, yeah, but it's your next tweet that made me laugh.

• 32:57Greg Isenberg?

  Wait, wait, go back, go back. Because, uh, yes, scroll down. This guy, relax, dude, it's just a JSON.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, again, like, dev, right? Like, you're currently building an AI agent, like, bruh, you see GitHub? Yeah, like, it's devs thinking about devs.

• 33:11Greg Isenberg?

  And then I responded, "It's not what it is, but what it unlocks." Like, that's how I think about it.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Given I understand this protocol better than 90% of the LARPers on Twitter, I could tell you from most, you know, because I'm, like, it's just, bruh.

• 33:23Greg Isenberg?

  And then look how long of a tweet he writes.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not reading all that. God bless you and I hope you don't. It's like.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, what do you see like even like the fact that there are still people who don't know what MCP means. So unlocking MCP unlocks freedom.

• 33:42Greg Isenberg?

  Okay, so why do you think MCP is a huge unlock?

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz the thing is, it's like you're for like a non-technical person. The fact that my Claude desktop app can now have access to external information with almost minimal configuration on my end. It's powerful. It's like to me like the way I look at N8N. Like I can build all those automations and to be honest, for the most part, I will because I enjoy writing the code. I think I can maintain it. Um, better and like I as a developer would feel more at ease having control over the code versus trusting N8N. But for someone who's not technical, who might have some technical knowledge, what it unlocks is huge. And that's the same way I think about it too. So.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  And if you remember the video we did, I told you like from a dev perspective, it's kind of just an API at the end of the day. But for a non-technical person, being able to integrate these third-party ser- ser- uh, services into like an MCP client of your choice. It's money. It's game changer. So yeah, the devs, the devs take it L on this one.

• 34:49Greg Isenberg?

  The the M in MCP stands for money. The money context protocol.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm with that, bro. So I would, I would definitely say this is underrated.

• 35:00Greg Isenberg?

  Underrated.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz like most people, most people using chat GPT still don't have. Does chat GPT have MCP? I'm more of a Claude guy. Yeah. So like, once that happens, it's like, imagine people.

• 35:11Greg Isenberg?

  I don't think they do. I've never, I've.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  I, I think they mentioned it that they were going to start building chat.

• 35:16Greg Isenberg?

  I think they mention.

• 35:19Greg Isenberg?

  But.

• 35:21Greg Isenberg?

  I don't know if it's in there yet. Yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  But has MCP support? Oh, they have? Oh, but like specific. Okay, yeah.

• 35:29Greg Isenberg?

  And like Outlook, dude.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:31Greg Isenberg?

  Like, no, thank you.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Teams.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Teams, right?

• 35:38Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I think MCP is underrated. I think devs being devs.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  And that was interesting. And I think you definitely followed it up with some other banger tweets that picked up in steam.

• 35:52Greg Isenberg?

  To say the least.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Like the 50K. I need to show people that. The 50K. What was it?

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Is it not technical?

• 36:03Greg Isenberg?

  There it is.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Right here. Man.

• 36:06Greg Isenberg?

  Two and a half million views. Okay, you want to read it?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  I don't think you understand. You vibe code of SaaS.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you just, you just jumped to 50K. Margins are at least 50% because you don't need a big team. You're making 25K, 300K a year. You could sell business for 10, 15 X EBITDA all day long. Your business network, your business worth is three to five. You own 100%. You keep growing or selling. You double down on the business. All of a sudden, six to 10, your customers love the product. Why are you raising venture capital again? I don't think you understand. I, I, I think people, you know, this was just such a great

• 36:49Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  jump that people for like, you know, this was your point. Why are you raising venture? This is obviously best case scenario. You're just on a hot streak, right? But I think people just saw this.

• 37:04Greg Isenberg?

  I mean, where am I wrong in this? Besides, besides, okay, I go down. If you scroll down.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  They said you corrected yourself here.

• 37:12Greg Isenberg?

  I corrected, I corrected myself. Five to 10 X EBITDA, which by the way, you're still making millions of dollars building a SaaS. But tell me, where am I wrong in this? In this?

• 37:23Speaker 01

  You, you, you know what it is? Because they, because they, because folks don't have the context of like the content you create. So this, I'll, I'll say this. If this wasn't a Greg Isenberg post, I would think this is someone selling me like some course. So I get it. But the context of your content and the ideas you give and the point you're trying to make here, you've always been like, I remember you were always the anti VC guy. And people don't know this, you investing companies all the time, actually. So it's like, but you're telling them you don't really need to raise money. And I believe this too, unless you're building something where there's no way you can be profitable.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Because like you're, you know, you're using these new AI tools and the credits are like Anthropic is expensive. Like I've seen the Tempo Anthropic bill. It's, it's high, right? So company like that, like the Lovables, the Bolts, they have to raise money because if they're somehow what profitable right now, that's a miracle. I don't think they are. Um, so for that type of business, it makes sense. But if you're building like, man, your content generator, you don't need like Sequoia Capital to invest money in you, right? So I get the point you're making here, but people just read this. And can I tell you, you were on every engineer, like you were co-tweeted by all my favorite developers.

• 38:40Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Like Prime, it's in like even the small accounts. I was like, my Greg's that Twitter check is going to be an amazing steak dinner.

• 38:49Greg Isenberg?

  Totally.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  But I get, I get your point. I get.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  You're talking about raising capital here. And now question, have you heard like of a vibe code? Like I've heard some people, like for example, this guy, I think his name is Alex. He used my template, like my SaaS template and he's not really a developer.

• 39:10Greg Isenberg?

  He's not. I've had him on the pod.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. So 300 Bando's.

• 39:14Greg Isenberg?

  Dude, he, and he was, I think he responded. He was like, yeah, absolutely. This is.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we know. We got a burger together in SF and I'm like, I'm like, brother, you use my template and you make more than me for my job. Like you're cooking.

• 39:26Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Right? So it's like, technically, I mean, he got some ways to go, but Alex is, he's, he's, he's on the way there. Now, again, this doesn't mean everyone's going to do it. Just like every, like I know so many talented engineers, so many talented engineers. They probably won't reach that number, right? So that, that part is on you. So I get what you're saying. Um, but I also understand that when you wrote this, you kind of knew this was going to. Yeah, I know.

• 39:53Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  I know, I know, I know.

• 39:55Greg Isenberg?

  I thought it might ruffle some feathers.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 39:58Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Cause a lot of people like, oh, how could you write this, this, this, that? I'm like, I know he smirked when he hit post.

• 40:03Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 40:05Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, I mean, I truly believe in this post, honestly. Like, I truly believe that, okay, it's gonna be hard. You know, you're not just gonna like-

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Saying yes, and don't quit your job.

• 40:20Greg Isenberg?

  Don't quit your job, you know? You're not gonna single prompt a 50K a month SaaS. But I do believe that we live in a world that it's completely possible to use things like Cursor, to use some of these tools to develop something that you can make $50,000 a month for.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  I believe you.

• 40:40Greg Isenberg?

  Minimum, like, or 10,000, okay? Or 20,000, but like, 50,000 isn't even that-

• 40:45Speaker 01

  I think 50 pisses people off.

• 40:47Greg Isenberg?

  The 50 pisses people off.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  I think if you did 10, it would have been calm. I don't think the tweet would have gone this viral.

• 40:52Greg Isenberg?

  But to be honest, like, if I'm being honest with you, I, I, I think that, you know, especially in a world where now you can like partner with creators and do TikTok ads, you know? Look at like what the Cal AI guys are doing, you know?

• 41:07Speaker 01

  They're printing.

• 41:08Greg Isenberg?

  Printing, like, $50,000 a month is less money than a convenience store.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  I will say this, even I, you saying that, there's a part of me that's a bit uncomfortable even imagining that. But that just shows like, man, like, you just gotta, gotta switch your thinking.

• 41:23Greg Isenberg?

  Well, it's a limiting belief.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:25Greg Isenberg?

  It's a limiting belief. It's possible. It's, it's possible. I'm not saying it's probable, but it's possible.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:30Greg Isenberg?

  And it's never been more-

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Easier than compared to like five, 10 years ago.

• 41:34Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 41:35Greg Isenberg?

  So that's my point of this post, is that? And that it could be life-changing? And that was my point, and I, and I believe this. You know what?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Let me give it a retweet too.

• 41:47Greg Isenberg?

  Oh shit.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Let me get a retweet too, cuz I was crying, bro. I was laughing at all the responses. But, uh, no, I think if there was any time- To start something that has the slightest chance of being successful, there's no better time than today. And that's a fact. There's no better time. Like, you can't say it was better five years ago, 10 years ago, especially in our, like, I would say world, like tech, SaaS, whatever. Like, in fact, I'll be honest, as a developer, it like, you know, back in the day was better. The jobs, like, you would be hired for less skill. You can overcharge people to build the simplest apps, right? Like, I've heard stories of people pay like 50, 60K for like a simple crud app that you can like vibe code now, right?

• 42:32Speaker 01

  So, there, there isn't a better time than now, and I, and I fully agree. Stop hating on my boy Greg.

• 42:38Greg Isenberg?

  I mean, you can keep it real with me, you know, like, people-

• 42:41Speaker 01

  No, I, I'll tell you this, like, like I said, it's that 50K number, even it made me feel uncomfortable. But because I know you and I know your content, and I know the mindset you have, this wasn't you, like, gloating or whatever. But for an engineer, like, if I, like I said, if I, if I didn't see your name, I would think this is someone trying to promo a course or something. If I didn't see your name and I didn't read the last two lines, right? So if it was, "I don't think you understand, your customers love your product," if it ended there, I would have been like, "Yeah, one of those, probably has a course link in bio." But why are you raising venture capital again? Meaning, like, there's no point in you doing this? And it being you and your content is when I saw this and I was like, "I get what he's trying to say."

• 43:23Speaker 01

  But like, you also have to learn in the, in the dev space, we're very much tired of, like, the fake guru.

• 43:31Greg Isenberg?

  Well, it's in everyone.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Like, no, but like, I think we have like an exceptional, like, like, we despise it, especially because we see people fall for it, and that fake guru make like millions and millions of dollars. So there is like this deep, like, I know we all are, but with devs, it's deeper. So-

• 43:49Greg Isenberg?

  It's too bad, because I, the point of the post was really to inspire people.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  And man, like, I told you, it made me feel like, I texted you this, it made me feel uncomfortable, like, 50K a month, like-

• 43:58Greg Isenberg?

  Jack Fritz, did you see Jack Fritz?

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's like, easy money, right? What did he say?

• 44:02Greg Isenberg?

  Go to his, his ex?

• 44:04Speaker 01

  He's actually, uh, I've talked with him before.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  He's like making what 20 uh

• 44:10Greg Isenberg?

  Something like that.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  I think it's in replies, right?

• 44:13Greg Isenberg?

  No, no, he quote retweeted it. It's he has a lot, a lot of tweets, so you gotta really go down.

• 44:21Greg Isenberg?

  Read, read a little bit of that.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  It's actually not out of the question for someone. Vibe code to SaaS, get 50K. There are plenty of people who know 50K a month is a ridic, is not a ridiculously high number. It's entirely economically feasible that 100 more vibe coders could make, could be making 50K a month and wouldn't impact your chance of success either. And he's young too, right?

• 44:39Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Mostly the limits you set on yourself are the limits you tend to get stuck on. So remember the next time you think 50K a month is not doable for you or some other vibe coder. For it's sure, for, for sure it is. It's not easy, but definitely doable. Keep going. I'm 19K a month. I told my mom will go, my goal is 30K a month and I knew she thought that was insane a bit. It was beyond her reality and just, and just in reach of mine at the time, making 1K a month for my mobile app. But now I'm where I'd never thought I'd be and I could tell, I, I held it back in these false limits just because I thought it was some impossible mountain. No, plenty, no, plenty. And I mean, a lot of people make 50K a month. Why not? Maybe it won't be.

• 45:20Greg Isenberg?

  Why not you?

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Why not you?

• 45:21Greg Isenberg?

  A lot of people are making, a lot of people make 50K a month. Why not you?

• 45:26Speaker 01

  That's true. You vibe code to SaaS. Okay, Greg, yeah, Sean is uh, Sean is one of those devs. He's funny, but.

• 45:33Greg Isenberg?

  Like, what did he say? He's like.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  You vibe code to SaaS, you get 50K a month.

• 45:38Greg Isenberg?

  519,000 views.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  I told you, but you were on my feed and it wasn't even your tweet that I saw. It was everyone's quote tweet of you. I'm like, what's going on? But I think everyone just skipped this part. This was your conclusion.

• 45:52Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Your conclusion is you don't need venture no more.

• 45:54Greg Isenberg?

  My conclusion honestly is that and also you can, you can, you can do this, at least try.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Oh, so there's an agreement here. He says, can you build a profitable SaaS? Absolutely. Is it as simple as Greg makes it sound? Come on, that's LinkedIn's success. The average SaaS takes two to three years.

• 46:11Greg Isenberg?

  I disagree with that. The average SaaS takes... Okay, you know what? Maybe I agree with the average SaaS. Okay, great. Are we trying to create average products here?

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is an oversimplification of the process and misleads. I think, again, I think your post was taken as this is now the new reality.

• 46:28Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Versus you're saying this is difficult, it's not easy, but this can be attainable. At least, people didn't get that from the post, but I understand what you're trying to say. Right? Like, if 50K a month was easy, we'd all be making 50K a month.

• 46:40Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  But it's not. But doesn't mean it's not possible.

• 46:43Greg Isenberg?

  That's right. Also, the paradigm has shifted. Like, yes, the average SaaS took, you know, what did he say? Two to three years to make?

• 46:50Speaker 01

  No, things have definitely got faster.

• 46:52Greg Isenberg?

  Things have gotten faster.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think a lot of people, like even the YC companies pivot so much nowadays. And the, like, you're not sticking to something two to three years. Like, you ideally want some sort of product-market fit much quicker. But, again, I've never grown a successful SaaS.

• 47:07Greg Isenberg?

  He says, pretending the hard parts don't exist isn't abundance mindset. It's lying to yourself. Real abundance is knowing the game is hard and knowing there are still tons of ways to win. I disagree. I disagree.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  So, talk about that.

• 47:19Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah, I fully disagree.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  It's lying to yourself. Real abundance is knowing the game is hard and knowing there are still tons of ways to win. So, like, what would you... Okay, so where do you disagree here? Because I'm not sure pretending the hard parts don't exist...

• 47:32Greg Isenberg?

  I feel like that statement is leading from a place of fear and not leading from a place of courage and abundance. So, if you want something, you have to picture, like, yourself at the finish line, right? Like, if you're running a race, you picture yourself number one. Like, think of a horse track, like, the horses, right? The horse that has the blinders on and is just, like, picturing itself getting to, you know, finishing on that line is more likely to be number one, even if it isn't the biggest horse and have the strongest legs and stuff like that. We underestimate, going back to overestimate, underrated.

• 48:14Greg Isenberg?

  I think what's underrated is how powerful our minds are when we could actually say, when we actually could, like, think about, you know, getting to the finish line and winning, like... When I start a project, I'm not like I'm trying to get to 5K a month MRR, or I'm trying to get five or 10 customers. Like I'm picturing like, you know, the CNBC video and I'm picturing this, or I'm picturing whatever is success for that project. And if you do that, I just find that you're more likely to win.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  You know what it is? I have this, I have this theory that in order for a company to succeed, there needs to be two types of people. One with the rhythm and one with the tism, right? So CTOs are often like, you know, the more, I would say tism, short for autism, more like technical, more predictable, more we have to do this. This is achievable, we can build this. And the CEO has to sort of be a dreamer that pushes everyone to feel uncomfortable. And to me, this looks like a classic CTO versus CEO. Where like, I think a lot of engineers and even myself, like, I feel like I'm like in two worlds where I get him and I get you.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  And I, I, I heard this saying one time, it was like pessimists are often right, but optimists make money. And it's like, I've decided that I want to be an optimist and I want to make money. So this to me looks like this is a CTO talking and what you're saying sounds like a CEO talking. I feel like if the inverse happened where he was CEO and you were CTO, I don't think it'd work out. But there's a reason why I think this dynamic between two people is the best in terms of building like a really big company. Like someone needs to dream and someone needs to remind us that the reality is crap and we need to fix things. But I think both without a good balance

• 50:14Speaker 01

  might not be the best. But again, this is, this is all thought, this is all theory. I haven't built a successful business yet, so I don't know.

• 50:22Greg Isenberg?

  I, I think what's interesting is the non-technical people like myself. Are starting to build prod products now.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  So now we're going to see.

• 50:31Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Who's really about it. I agree with you.

• 50:33Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  I agree with you. And as the models are getting better, we're like, you know, I agree with you.

• 50:38Greg Isenberg?

  Yeah.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  But yeah, I, I, I definitely do think it's like, it like a lot of work starts in the mind and you know, I, I definitely prescribe to the fact that, you know, if, if, if you want to build excellent things, it, it starts with some sort of belief and confidence that like, okay, I might not have it all figured out. Yes, it's hard. But at some point, if I go hard enough, long enough, strategic enough, you know, right place, right time that I could make it happen. So, you know, I, I, I accept the inspiration. Fifty K month. Here we go.

• 51:10Greg Isenberg?

  Here we go. Can we end with a three to four minute GitHub?

• 51:14Speaker 01

  The simplest, this is gonna be the simplest tutorial of life. Like this is going to be so simple. Think of GitHub as this one giant line. This is your project. And think of, I'll maybe like draw, like little lines here. Think of these as like major milestone, product updates, things you've shift, right? Shift, right? Let's say for the first one that this was an admin dashboard.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Right? We shipped an admin dashboard, Greg, and our customers are extremely happy. But then we got some new feedback that they want like a live tracker in the admin dashboard. We currently have a working project. We currently have working code. What most people have been doing with their vibe projects, like you, you build and you kick publish and then it publishes right away. What most people have been doing is they're adding a new feature on top of working code. Now here's the problem. Most people setup is as follows. They have their vibe coding tool, vibe coding, or IDE for the devs, right?

• 52:28Speaker 01

  So this is where you write or you prompt your code and then you push this code to GitHub, right? And then think of GitHub again as this giant line of like. Features you're continuing to stack. And then the way most people have it set up is you are, this code is probably getting pushed to Vercel, right? Vercel is, Vercel or Netlify, these are the, the big boys. Now here's the problem, the problem here and the reason why GitHub is so important is, let's say, people want the live tracker, but our app is working fine how it is right now. If I prompt my IDE or my Viveco tool, even myself as a developer, I build this live tracker feature.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  And let's say I didn't test well, or even let's say we tested, but there was some bug that we missed. And I push this to production. This pushes to Vercel, updates the site, updates the app. Now I've pushed a bug into my live code, site can go down, user can miss, like there's a lot of things that can go wrong. GitHub works as such, so let's say I've built, I'll remove this right here. So let's say we've shipped the admin dashboard, perfect, now we want to add the live tracker. GitHub has this terminology or this thing called branching for, we can copy the code from its last working point and create a new branch.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  And I can give a name to this branch and usually the naming convention for like a production branch is main, it used to be master, but apparently master is offensive now, it's main. Uh, did I just delete main? It's main and

• 54:08Speaker 01

  for like the new branch, I can name it whatever I want. So in this case, let's say we're a large team. I'll name it Mickey slash live tracker. And the reason why I'll name it this way is you know that it's me who's working on this and by the name, you can kind of tell what feature I'm working on. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to be building out the live tracker feature in this branch. This code is now separate from this code. This branch is connected to Vercel. So as long as I don't push, as long as I don't touch this branch, the live deployment is fine. And the reason why GitHub is so sick is I can continue to work on this branch thoroughly test it. And then when it's all All said and done, and it's good. I'll merge this. Let me get my pencil.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  I'll merge this back into the branch. So now I've had a clean run where this app is working fine. I spent enough time testing to make sure all is well. And once I'm confident that all is well, I merge it. And I showed an example earlier when we were talking about, when we were talking about Devin. This is a classic example where the change that was made was this right here. This, this line was removed. You can see the branch name here. The branch name is Devin slash some number fixed past template expiration. Right? So kind of the same naming, naming convention. You can name it however you want, but I find that helpful.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  And then the way in technical organizations, it works as a manager or someone else reviews it. In this case, it could be you or Code Rabbit. And then you see this option right here that's, that's, that's hidden right now where you click merge. And then, once you've merged it, it's essentially into your main code base. So although most people will not be into GitHub heavily, I think understanding that this is how it works. And I think as the tools continue to, to, to get better, we're going to start like vibe coders will have access to these type of tools, like being able to branch. And this is essentially how it works. I have a main branch. This is connected to my Verceller Netlify. If I push code to here, it redeploy's my site.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  And in order to build a very sustainable piece of product that works, that's functional, every single feature I want to build or change, I want to make, I have to turn into a new branch. Right? I vibe coded, I tested, it works. I'm happy, I'm happy, I'm happy, then I merge in. And there are times where you start and it never gets merged. But guess what? You don't care because it does not affect the main branch, which is connected to your Vercella Netlify. And that's a GitHub crash course.

• 56:47Greg Isenberg?

  I appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate that. I think, well, one thing I, you know, we often forget is GitHub is owned by Microsoft.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:55Greg Isenberg?

  So you gotta think that OpenAI with Codex.

• 57:00Greg Isenberg?

  And the integrations that they're going to be doing with GitHub.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  And I think like all the vibe coding tools, I mean, like this is even stuff we're working on on Tempo. It's like, if we really want people to build serious applications, these workflows are coming, right?

• 57:16Greg Isenberg?

  For sure.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  And I can imagine it almost being like, every time you work on a new feature, like the tool automatically creates a new branch for you, right?

• 57:24Greg Isenberg?

  Makes sense.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Cause directly pushing live into production is.

• 57:28Greg Isenberg?

  You're crazy.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Especially if you're making money, you couldn't, you know.

• 57:31Greg Isenberg?

  Especially if you're making 50K a month.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  50X it too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:38Greg Isenberg?

  Dude, thank you so much for the chat.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Greg, this was fun, man.

• 57:42Greg Isenberg?

  People need a, I'll link it in the description, but follow you, subscribe, and you'll be a smarter person for it, so.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  I appreciate that. Thank you so much. It's always, it's always a pleasure and yeah, hope to do these more.

• 57:57Greg Isenberg?

  Absolutely. Until next time.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  My man.

• 57:59Greg Isenberg?

  Take care.