Good Relationships Need Better Fights

Conflict is not toxic or immoral. In fact, it's generative and the lifeblood of our relationships. It isn't something to avoid. It matters, and it can even bring us closer together. Priya Parker, author of The Art of Fighting, joins Esther to dig into how conflict can be a productive force in our relationships rather than something to fear. For more about Priya Parker and The Art of Fighting visit https://www.priyaparker.com/ Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Esther Perel?

  Priya Parker, bienvenido a Where Should We Begin? Es un placer tenerte en el podcast. A menudo no hago entrevistas, pero trabajo con parejas, familias, amigos y co-fundadores y me encargué de los conflictos muchas veces. Y tú solo escribiste este libro muy especial sobre la arte de luchar. Y me encanta el hecho de que lo llames arte, porque no es solo una técnica, un mecanismo, un conjunto de habilidades. Tiene intuición, tiene arte, tiene práctica. Esos son los elementos que vienen con el arte. Y tú trabajas con grupos principalmente y familias también.

• 0:42Esther Perel?

  Vengo de grupos, pero luego me mudé a familias y a parejas, principalmente parejas románticas, pero también amigos, colegas y co-fundadores. Y hay una precisión en tu libro que realmente quiero destacar porque ves al conflicto no como algo tóxico o inmoral, sino en realidad como algo muy generativo, como el hecho de que es la vida de sangre de una relación, que significa que importa que uno esté dispuesto a sacarlo y entrar allí y articular: ¿Qué es yo? ¿Qué es tú? ¿Qué me importa? ¿Qué nos importa? ¿De qué realmente estamos? Focas en un tipo particular de conflicto

• 1:26Esther Perel?

  porque el tema es tan amplio. ¿Quién no ha estado en conflicto? ¿Quién no ha tenido conflicto? ¿Quién no ha causado estrés? ¿Ha sido receptor de estrés? ¿O ha visto romper y alterar la confianza y así sucesivamente? Así que en nuestra sociedad, donde estamos tan a menudo polarizados y tan divisivos, cualquiera que trate de hacer bien y crear algo que sea pro-social y generativo para unirnos y ayudarnos con la fragilidad de nuestras conexiones, para mí es un verdadero honor estar contigo.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Estoy profundamente, profundamente honrada.

• 2:14Esther Perel?

  Si escuchas a Where Should We Begin? Sabes que las relaciones están sufriendo un cambio cultural masivo. Nunca hemos sido más conectados y nunca hemos sentido más desconectados. Nos deseo comprensión, experiencia colectiva. Queremos verse, pero estamos optimizando para la isla. Creo que la única forma de mejorar nuestras relaciones es recordar las bases de estar juntos. Por eso te invito a que me acompañes en una experiencia inmersiva, mi tour internacional. Strangers, amigos y amores comienza en Australia este diciembre con citas en Sydney, Melbourne y Brisbane. Me acompañes en esta noche especial

• 2:57Esther Perel?

  donde despertamos al animal social dentro de nosotros mismos, transformamos a los extraños en amigos y tal vez incluso amigos en amores. Los billetes están vendiendo rápido. Obténlos ahora en EstherPorell.com/tour.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  ¿Cuándo es el final del día y te sientas en la silla buscando tu reloj de noche? No estás buscando El Movie de tarea. Estás buscando confort, emoción o algo en medio. Ya sea que desee algo familiar o esté en la mentalidad de descubrir algo nuevo, Amazon Prime tiene lo que necesitas, de pantalla a la puerta. Porque no se trata solo de géneros o contenido infinito. Se trata de encontrar la cosa que se encaja con la sensación que tienes, sin importar la mentalidad. Desde el streaming hasta el envío rápido, está en Prime.

• 3:59Esther Perel?

  La arte de luchar. En primer lugar, es un título glorioso.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Gracias.

• 4:03Esther Perel?

  Ese es el título de tu nuevo libro. Llega después de La Artes de Lugar. Y la primera cosa es el hecho de que lo piensas como arte, no como técnica, no como un conjunto de habilidades, eso es parte de ello. Pero estás hablando de un arte, que es algo que se adquiere pero que requiere de intuición, el sentido, la práctica, etc. Así que La Artes de Lugar fue un libro que realmente entró en mi cabeza. Soy una recolectora, pero nunca lo he hecho con el tipo de intencionalidad que has traído. Ya no tengo ninguna recolección sin decir: ¿Por qué estamos aquí? ¿Cuál es el propósito? Así que tú entraste en mi cabeza.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Pero eres una recolectora profundamente intuitiva y siempre has sido. Eres una hermosa recolectora. Estabas haciendo muchas de esas cosas. Hostias, hostias con intención, conectas a la gente. No asumes que van a saber qué hacer. Así que tal vez ayudo a darle lenguaje, pero ya eras una recolectora muy sabia y creo que una feliz.

• 5:00Esther Perel?

  Creo que eso es correcto. Lo hice, pero tú agregaste una capa. Eso es lo que dije, la capa de intencionalidad, de conciencia, de arte, que me hizo incluso una mejor.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Gracias.

• 5:11Esther Perel?

  Ahora quiero usar tu libro para convertirme en un mejor luchador.

• 5:16Esther Perel?

  Soy un luchador. Pero me gusta la noción de que puedes ser un mejor luchador. Me gusta la idea de que hay conflicto constructivo y destructivo, pero me encanta el subtítulo del libro, que es el poder transformador del conflicto. Y la idea de que el conflicto no es tóxico, no es inmoral, no es una falta de responsabilidad. Al contrario, es la expresión primaria del hecho de que algo importa.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Hermoso es eso.

• 5:45Esther Perel?

  Así que leí y solo subrayé palabras que me hablaban porque dijeron lo que vivo, lo que hago en un contexto un poco diferente, pero realmente no. Ambos trabajamos en relaciones. Nos enfocamos en la conexión humana,

• 6:06Esther Perel?

  que involucra las expectativas, rupturas, reparaciones y yo diría la arte de terminar.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Absolutamente.

• 6:14Esther Perel?

  La arte de terminar, porque esta es una pregunta que muchas personas traen de una manera más overtia a un terapeuta de relaciones que a un facilitador de conflictos.

• 6:27Esther Perel?

  Está bien en una pareja decir: ¿Quiero quedarme o voy a ir? ¿Es el momento de terminar? Mientras que con grupos hay más...

• 6:36Speaker 01

  No tenemos lenguaje para ello.

• 6:37Esther Perel?

  No, y hay más maniobras, maniobras subterráneas.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Y hay salidas singulares. Un grupo puede romperse en mil formas diferentes. Puede ser dividido, limpio en el medio, como algunas iglesias, pero también pueden ser salidas silenciosas aquí y allá. A menudo miro a la terapia de parejas y tanto de tu trabajo en las últimas dos décadas porque aunque trabajas en el matrimonio, en parejas, mucho de tu trabajo es en realidad sobre la relación y la conexión. Tu contexto para mí, tu contexto, tú localizas dentro del par. Pero el trabajo que haces es sobre la conexión humana y el crecimiento y la individuation y cuánto de nosotros damos a nosotros mismos y alzamos a nosotros mismos y dónde estamos en nuestro terreno.

• 7:26Esther Perel?

  Quiero decir, cuando trabajas con parejas a menudo puedes dividir entre parejas que son conflictos avenidas y parejas que están enganchadas en escalaciones negativas. Y lo llamas inestable.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Paz y calor inestable.

• 7:44Esther Perel?

  Correcto. Me encanta. Es una hermosa metáfora. Pero me pregunto cómo llegaste al concepto de inestable.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Vengo de una familia de ambos lados. Soy biracial, soy bicultural, tú sabes esto. Has conocido a mi madre. Y soy media indiana y media americana blanca. Y en ambas filialidades de familia, por la mayor parte, creo que había una creencia inexplicada de que las personas buenas no luchan. Y escribo sobre esto en La Artes de Luchar. Uno de mis recuerdos más antiguos de este mensaje fue cuando estaba sentada en Jessup, Iowa, en el funeral de mi abuelo.

• 8:27Esther Perel?

  Sí, sí, sí.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Y el ministro se levantó para decir, para dar el eulogio para su funeral. Y dijo: "En 50 años de matrimonio..."

• 8:35Esther Perel?

  Nunca han tenido un conflicto.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Nunca han tenido un conflicto.

• 8:38Esther Perel?

  Ahora déjame enactar la segunda parte. Y luego la madre en la que viene...

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Madre de paso.

• 8:42Esther Perel?

  Madre de paso. Se grita en tus oídos: "Eso no es una gran cosa".

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Exacto. Y ella no es... Ella es alguien, mi segunda esposa de padre, no es alguien que es conflictiva. Y recuerdo que la virtud, que esta era la historia de mi familia, de que las personas buenas no luchan. De hecho, le envié un mensaje a mi padre más tarde para ver si me recordaba correctamente. Y me envió el mensaje más "padre" de vuelta. ¿Puedo leerlo? Porque en realidad no... Así que le envié un mensaje: "Papá, ¿recuerdas? ¿Es cierto? ¿Nunca...? ¿Nunca pelearon?" Y dijo: "Creo que es cierto. El último conflicto que mi padre tuvo fue en el Pacífico Sur durante la Segunda Guerra Mundial. Ganó ese, y no necesitó hacerlo de nuevo. Dead".

• 9:35Esther Perel?

  Wow.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Así que crecí y mis padres... He hablado de esto, mis padres divorzaron. Y cuando se separaron, todos, incluyéndome, estaban sorprendidos porque nunca pelearon. Así que aprendí que solo porque no están luchando no significa que no haya dolor o enojo o desacuerdo. Y en algún nivel, estaban tan atemorizados de quemar la casa que perdieron su llama.

• 10:07Esther Perel?

  Así que en nuestro lenguaje, uno diría, cuando eres conflictos avenidas, también bloqueas la diferenciación o bloqueas lo que es una de las cosas que ves como esencial para el conflicto, que es que nos ayuda a definir quiénes somos y qué nos importa.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Sí. Sabes, pienso en el conflicto. Soy facilitadora de resolución del conflicto, esa es mi profesión. Y he llegado a pensar en el conflicto como relevancia.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  People don't fight about the things they don't care about.

• 10:40Esther Perel?

  That's correct.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  And so when we, as in my family.

• 10:45Esther Perel?

  I think we should repeat that sentence.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  So I've come to think of conflict.

• 10:49Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  To reframe it in my own head as relevance, as mattering. People don't fight about the things they don't care about. And they also don't fight with people they don't care about.

• 11:01Esther Perel?

  Correct.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  And I'm not actually talking about, you know, screaming at strangers on the internet. The central question of the art of fighting is how do we fight with those we want to belong to? And growing up, I didn't know what that looked like.

• 11:17Esther Perel?

  Actually, you say it even more precisely. You say to close the gap between loneliness and belonging is to go through the conflict that is the maturation process. I mean, that may not be exactly your words, but that's how I remember it. And I just thought you've connected three things here. Loneliness, belonging, and the bridge in between is the ability to navigate conflict.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  I started thinking about the art of fighting the summer of 2020. And I wrote, The Art of Gathering came out in 2018. And the summer of 20, as you remember, it was the first summer of the pandemic. There was a racial reckoning. It was return to office, return. And so there's all of these battles raging and a lot of, for a lot of different reasons. And I'm a conflict resolution facilitator. And so I was inside many of those reckonings professionally. I was on those little Zooms, the little small squares. You know, I'd, I'd, I'd log in, I'd see 80 faces inside Zooms. And part of what, and I was brought in, I'm not a lawyer. So the lawyers would come in to figure out the legal stuff. But the facilitators are brought in to basically do, they don't call it this, but group therapy.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Right? Restitching the social fabric. And so much of what I saw that summer was that we don't have the skills or tools to know how to hold a fight. And so I brought in this language of healthy heat. In part because what I saw in so many of these organizations was that we oscillate between no one saying anything and then people either rage quitting or burning the house down. And.

• 12:53Esther Perel?

  Or splitting or fragmenting.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Or fragmenting, right? And, and actually, there was a, one of the symptoms of that was there was a lot of, there was a lot of union movements to unionize that summer. And many people, including in those unions, would often tell me one of the reasons we're unionizing is because this is one of the only structures that exist for us to be heard. And many of the problems that we have within our company don't actually, aren't what unionizing is for. And so we don't have the skills and structures in regular life to fight well. And so I wanted to begin to explore my, the art of fighting was my journey to explore where are people who are doing this well?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Where are restaurants that realize there's conflicts every night of service? How do we actually learn how to repair quickly every night? How do we hold games so that we get the release, the release valve out? Where are companies, where are friend groups that have learned to do this well? And also, everywhere is messy. And so how do we begin to ask the questions of how do we fight? And how do we hold heat in the most meaningful relationships of our life?

• 14:04Esther Perel?

  So it's interesting. I did a course last year on conflict in couples.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 14:10Esther Perel?

  And I also read Amanda Ripley, like you, because she is one of the, the, the guides on this. Um, what is, what is good conflict or destructive conflict? What are defeating strategies? For example, couples who have negative conflict, destructive conflict, escalations of repetitions, of the same stuff over and over again, with what we call kitchen sinking. I, we start to discuss this, our disagreement about what we were gonna do tonight. And it becomes a story about the last 22 years, kitchen sinking. And every other thing that has ever been a disagreement between us enters into the same. But that's one of the things.

• 14:55Esther Perel?

  Then we go into totalistic thinking, you always, you never. Then we go into.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  This is so great.

• 15:02Esther Perel?

  Right?

• 15:02Speaker 01

  You're, you're. It's mapping, one of the people I spent time with is a wonderful facilitator. You also know Prentice Hemphill.

• 15:09Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  And one of the things Prentice told me is we're, we're often having the wrong fight. And the job of the facilitator or the person in the, in the group with some group intelligence is to help us have the right fight.

• 15:24Esther Perel?

  Yeah. What is the issue underneath the issue?

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Yes. And what do we actually need to talk about? I, I, I'll give a simple example. I had a, you know, I think all of us, if we look at the concept of friendship and I, I, I, in, in the book, I talk about groups of friends who have been friends for 30 years. And then all of a sudden, they hop on this, a Zoom during the pandemic and realize half have stayed in their hometown, half have moved abroad or outside of the, of the town. And they realize like, they don't have anything in common anymore. And not only that, half of them think the pandemic is real and half of them don't. And oh, by the way, half of them are at Black Lives Matters rallies as white women. And half of them think those are deeply quote unquote, dangerous movements. And, and it just sort of all came to the, uh, surface.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  And part of why I think looking at friendship in this conversation is interesting is because we all have friends and we think that friendships should just be fun. But actually, in modern life, friendship is one of the most important relationships we have. And there's all sorts of wear and tear in friendship, but there's so little language for it. I, I, I had a friend of mine who I'd been friends for years. We, she was one of my closest friends and, um, we didn't live in the same city for a period of time and we'd always text and, and she was sort of in my psyche. And, um, I saw her at one point and then a few weeks later, just radio silence. And I would text and I wouldn't hear back.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Or I'd text some funny thing, you know, some vibey thing, some meme, some inside joke. And I'd get a one word response.

• 16:55Esther Perel?

  Alright, so you knew.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  And I was like, uh-oh. So then for a little bit, I tried to like poke around, is she okay? I asked other friends, like they were hearing from her. I was like, okay, I, it's me.

• 17:04Esther Perel?

  Then you ask, is there something? And then you wait to see, am I gonna get a real answer or am I gonna get a skirting around?

• 17:11Speaker 01

  And exactly, and I got a skirting around. And so then I went through this, I mean, I, I, I, I felt silly almost at the time, but I went through this like five month grieving period of just kind of in my own head. I, I mean, it wasn't inaccurate, but I'd lost something. I'd lost my friend. And one day I got a text from her and I talked to my husband about it. I talked to my friends about, you know, I'm sort of going through this ending by myself. And, um, one day I, I, I heard from her, I just, I, I heard a sort of chirpy text. And she said, um, something like, it's, it's been a while. Uh, we should catch up. And I felt such rage. We don't need a catch up. We don't need a catch up.

• 17:56Esther Perel?

  We need a real conversation.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:59Esther Perel?

  And now my question to you is, at that moment, do you want to engage in the conversation? Or do you want to say, I just spent quite a bit of time letting go of you? And now you're coming? So I care, but I am more angry in this moment than my care and there, right? That can, this is conflict.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  This is conflict. And then, and the first conflict is an internal conflict. Right? And so I had to, I had to ask myself those questions. Do I want this? Also, there's a bit of like, oh, now you're coming back, right? Like, oh, wait, I've had the lower hand for the last six months. Now, okay, this, how do I respond? And I had to go through my own set of questions.

• 18:39Esther Perel?

  Actually, the word here is grudge.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 18:43Esther Perel?

  Right? The, now you want, after all this, I'm not so sure. Or no.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 18:51Esther Perel?

  Like the Italians do, right?

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 18:52Esther Perel?

  And that's the grudge, a grudge, which is a word that I didn't see in your book, by the way. But it is so prevalent in the world of conflict.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  And I, and I almost think of a grudge physically, like if I'm thinking of somatically as a body of like a, it's, it's sort of a, um, it's just a piece of like mass that needs to be opened up. It's like a piece of density. Yeah, it's an abscess. And in this moment, I, I mean, this was in microseconds. I, in that moment, I was more relieved to hear her. I was also, I was, I was mad. I was all of the things, like I, I, you know, said, welcome to the mess. Right? Welcome to the mess of our many feelings. And I thought about it. And at that point, honestly, I had gone so through my own grieving process that I was sort of out of the other side. And, uh, and I, and I wrote back. And again, I'm a facilitator. I thought very deeply about what it is I want to say.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  And I decided, first, I have a choice, do I want to face or not? And what are the questions I go through of whether or not I want to engage? And you don't have to respond right away. Um, but then I thought, I really actually want to know what happened. I feel kind of dumbfounded. And so, uh, but I don't want to pretend.

• 20:00Esther Perel?

  In that moment, what did I do?

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Oh, I thought for six months, what did I do?

• 20:04Esther Perel?

  So you do ask yourself, because, you know.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  What did I do?

• 20:08Esther Perel?

  And that also is in the realm of conflict. Who's responsible for the tear?

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:12Esther Perel?

  Right? Is it me? And do I instantly think, what did I do? Or do I instantly think, what did you do to me?

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Yes. In that case, what did I do? In part because the action was from the other side. Um, what did I do? And then, you know, you, you sort of make up these stories in your head. Well, you know, whatever it is, it couldn't be this bad. So I, this is, so I event, I texted back and I said, um,

• 20:38Speaker 01

  I don't know about you, but I've experienced a huge change and loss in our friendship. And maybe I said and have a lot of grief around it. I don't think we need a catch up as much as a, and I use the word clearing. And that's a term that I learned from a facilitator friend of mine. And she, you know, you see the three ellipses, the three dots. She responded right away and she said, thank you so much for the good words. To her credit, I'm up for that.

• 21:12Esther Perel?

  Nice.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Let's do a clearing. And that's just the pre-

• 21:16Esther Perel?

  And then the anger. I mean, if you talk about the physicality of conflict, something goes down in that moment.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:24Esther Perel?

  Because we are back again in a shared reality.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Yes, and there's an exchange.

• 21:29Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Right? I threw the ball, she caught it. She actually first threw the ball, I caught it. I thought about what did I wanna, what shape did I wanna throw it back in? What did I wanna say? How do I wanna be? How much vulnerability do I wanna show her? And then I threw it back to her and she caught it. And she, and, and so part of what that entire process was, was actually the pre-conflict resolution. And in The Art of Fighting, I have 10 chapters. Only one of them is the actual facing. It's called The Room Where It Happens. And that's because fighting, we have such a narrow concept of the fight, right? It's actually all of the things you're talking about.

• 22:05Esther Perel?

  So it's so interesting. I would never even call it pre. To me, this is a part of this.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  It is a part of it.

• 22:11Esther Perel?

  It's like foreplay is not fore. You know, it's, it's the play.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:16Esther Perel?

  So, you know, what, what I experienced when you described this, it's like she threw the thing. I could, I caught it. I could have done so many different things with it. I allowed it to enter me. I remembered why I love her. She's my friend. I decided not to just spew. I then send it back to her. There's so many moments here where it can derail.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:37Esther Perel?

  The fragility of it all.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  The fragility of it all.

• 22:40Esther Perel?

  You know, that's why it's the art of fighting. Because at any moment,

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:45Esther Perel?

  you could lose a 20-year friendship here that has been so important in your life. And that's why we need the art of fighting.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  And we don't have scripts. You're right. Every moment is a threat. Every moment is an opportunity to either be misunderstood.

• 23:00Esther Perel?

  Or to escalate. Or to make it worse. Or to provoke the other into battling. Or to, to switch from good conflict or

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:10Esther Perel?

  healthy conflict to unhealthy heat. And I'm gonna reverse it.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  And all of, all of the above. And I think part of, you know, when I, if I were to, if I was to distill all of The Art of Fighting underneath, like what is the, what is a core concept that is deeply important in fighting with the people we love? It's, and I did this in that moment because I had a lot of it, is tapping into your relational longing for the person despite your anger. And seeing if you can tap into, even if you're mad, right? Your, the, the residual desire for connection.

• 23:52Esther Perel?

  So in couples work, we call it switching affect. From the reactivity to the reflectivity, from anger to longing.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 24:04Esther Perel?

  That is the, if you stay in the fighting, because the, behind every criticism is a wish. A veiled wish.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 24:14Esther Perel?

  You know, you never, you always, I can't believe, da, da, da, da, da. Is, I wish, I was hoping, I wanted.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:24Esther Perel?

  I longed for, how did you not? There's a longing. But when people come, so the interesting thing is you said fighting with the people you love. But you, I work with fighting with people who love each other, or once did. You love, work with people who may love a cause in common, but not necessarily each other.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Yes, beautifully said. And so when I say a group you want to belong to, I actually mean quite widely. And I'm looking at teams. I look at 150-year-old swimming club. I look at the Seattle Seahawks. I look at families. I look at all, the Burning Man founders. I look at any group, because in modern life, we choose our groups that you actually want to belong to. And part of the danger of it is it's a lot easier to leave. And so part of what we are so unskilled by is we actually think, we think conflict is dysfunctional. Or like, you know, there's so much group drama and, you know, I'm saying that in quotes. Or why, you know, good, again, good groups don't fight.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Oh, we are so dysfunctional. I hear that when I get a phone call, there's some reckoning. Or, or just a moment of change in a, in a group or organization. I'm sorry, we're so dysfunctional. Right? There's so much shame. And yet, if you look at group theory, groups can't form without a fight.

• 25:46Esther Perel?

  Because the fight helps them determine what they are about.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:50Esther Perel?

  What is the common denominator?

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Who are we? How do we do this? What are we about? Are, do we meet on Thursdays or Wednesdays? That's, in a lot of groups, by the way, reckonings happen when someone tries to change the schedule. Because they think it's just a small logistical thing. But actually, it has to do with, one, everyone else's schedule, people can actually leave. But also, time impacts identity.

• 26:16Esther Perel?

  Or time is power. Whoever decides about.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Time is power.

• 26:20Esther Perel?

  So I love the work of Howard Markman. And what he looks at is the hidden agendas. And so he said at one point, what, it's not so much what you're fighting about, the time, but what you're fighting for. And he has about seven categories, but three of them to me are really, in most relational systems I work with, those will take me a long way. People fight for power and control. Whose decisions matter most? Who gets to make the decision? Whose priorities go first?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 26:54Esther Perel?

  People fight for care and closeness, trust. Do you have my back? Can I rely on you? Will you stand up for me? And people fight for respect and recognition. Do you value me? Do I matter? And they can be fighting about 20 other things.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  I'm smiling because everything you said, power, interests, priority, relevance, trust. That is why there's so much conflict in gatherings. Because weddings, wedding planning, big 30th anniversary of companies, right? Funerals brings all of this up. Who should we invite? What is this about? Who gets stage time? What is the story of our company over the last 25 years?

• 27:43Esther Perel?

  Who sits next to who?

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Who sits next to who?

• 27:45Esther Perel?

  Who's coming closer to the table of honor?

• 27:48Speaker 01

  And people often ask-

• 27:49Esther Perel?

  Who gets to do a speech?

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Yes. Who's giving the toast? Who's a bridesmaid? Who's a groom's person? Did you get invited to her 60th? Did you get invited to 75th? Oh, right? And so people often say, you're a conflict resolution facilitator. Why are you so interested in gatherings? Or what's the relationship between the art of gathering-

• 28:06Esther Perel?

  Because gatherings bring up

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:08Esther Perel?

  all of the unresolved stuff that becomes fodder for the conflict.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  And gatherings and the planning of gatherings force us to have conversations we often avoid. Because they're forcing mechanisms. And I talk about this in The Art of Fighting. Often in groups, it's actually moments of joy that bring up conflict. Weddings, the first baseball game of the season. The lineup for the opera. Right? Who's first chair?

• 28:35Esther Perel?

  Why are we fighting? It should be such a happy moment.

• 28:43Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 28:55Speaker 03

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• 29:22Speaker 04

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• 29:55Speaker 05

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• 30:24Esther Perel?

  So I want to do one thing, just because I think it'll be so interesting. Like you, I get a ton of letters and people asking me questions and wanting to know, what do I do? And so I picked a couple. And I thought, because my first thing when I receive a question is, what catches my attention? What am I noticing here? So this is a Where Should We Begin listener from Quebec. We are two women who've known each other for more than 15 years. One of us, ah, actually, it's written in the third, so I'm gonna read it to you as is. One repeatedly reaches out. The other says she wants the friendship too, but often disappears for months.

• 31:08Esther Perel?

  Sometimes even a year. Eventually, the first woman sends an angry voice message. And now both feel hurt and misunderstood. You know, I did years of Where Should We Begin Couples without thinking about friendship pairs. And then I began with the friendship of two young men. And then I did a whole series. Because in effect, you know, your friends will accompany you often for many more years than your romantic partners.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, they're deeply precious relationships. And more and more, when we also choose who we spend time with, friends, friends for most people, friendships are more important than than in centuries past.

• 31:47Esther Perel?

  It's also the first free choice relationship for any child.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  So with this, with, you know, dear listener, first, when I was doing research for this new book about fighting, one of the things I found that was so interesting to me was one of the most important elements of all group life and all long-term friendship is perceived reciprocity.

• 32:20Esther Perel?

  And explain.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  So that we at least perceive that we're, that there's shared weight in this friendship. There's shared joy, there's shared labor. And in groups of friends, or in groups of any kind, the groups that last for a long time, and this is from, this is from Small Group Dynamics, are the groups where every member feels like they're meaningfully contributing to it.

• 32:46Esther Perel?

  And the group is giving to them.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Exactly. And if we take that and distill it down to a friendship, the same is true. And so you are gonna come to, don't feel badly about saying something. At some level, at some time, you can think about how you said it, but at some time, someone's gotta give. Because group, relationships where there's not shared reciprocity don't last. And so it was an act of connection, invitation to say something. And the invitation becomes, how do you say it in a way that is hearable to her?

• 33:30Speaker 01

  And to become curious about why it is that she may disappear for years at a time. And if you can get to a place where you can have a conversation and really hear her, that doesn't mean that you are willing to then hold her not, hold her disappearing for a year. You then have to have an opportunity to either say, I need more, and she has an opportunity to alter herself for you, or this doesn't work for me in this way. And there might be a loosening of the friendship, there might be an ending of it.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  But just like couples have the DTR that define the relationship, you and your friend are unstable because you are not carrying weight. It doesn't have to look the same, but you're not carrying weight, you're not both carrying water in this relationship.

• 34:26Esther Perel?

  I actually would like to add another word. It is love. Because in, not in all groups do you need love. You need companion compatibility, you need cooperation, you need companionship. But friendship involves love and the reciprocity, that I care about you more than you care about me, you matter to me more in my life than I seem to matter in yours. But I had an interesting moment of this recently where a friend of mine has been a little bit more out of touch. And I thought, you know, I've had such a hard year. I thought you could call me a little more often. And then I kind of said, you know, we haven't had much contact in the last months, but I'm looking forward to seeing you when I travel soon.

• 35:09Esther Perel?

  And then she said, I've had something happen to me with such and such. And I just thought to myself, you know, you never know.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  We're all also the center of our own stories.

• 35:20Esther Perel?

  And I'm thinking, oh, I'm feeling a little rejected. But then I realized, maybe I'm not the only one who's gone through something. That is reciprocity too.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  It is reciprocity. And, and listening, and then, and then widening ourselves for each other. And I also think, you know, there in, in modern life, yes, you can kind of theoretically keep having other friends, like there's always other people out there. But that in and of itself also gets very lonely. And so I would also say, go for it. Go for the conversation in part because every relationship is messy. And you, you know, friendship shouldn't be a net drain. If you're always in a fight, that's probably also a sign that this may not be the right fit in this moment. But doing the, doing, finding a way to see if you can come together ideally in person

• 36:09Speaker 01

  or on the phone, not over text, to talk and listen to each other.

• 36:16Esther Perel?

  When this woman sends a message that is angry, it almost feels to me that she's helping herself leave. I mean, part of a fight, that is something that, that we, and when I say we, I'm thinking about primarily couples therapists, pay attention to is that it's easier to leave someone you're angry at than to leave someone when you are in touch with how much you miss them. That's a different concept of the fighting. It's a fighting as a distance instigator.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  One of the concepts I have at the last third of The Art of Fighting is how to leave and also when do groups die?

• 36:56Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  And I write about.

• 36:57Esther Perel?

  It's a great chapter.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Thank you. I write about what I call the connected goodbye. And it's exactly, it's the idea, it's so easy to slam the door, but actually, but there are so many opportunities to actually say goodbye while holding hands metaphorically.

• 37:12Esther Perel?

  The connected goodbye is conscious uncoupling.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 37:15Esther Perel?

  It's really, that's the other term for the same, which is, we end, but we're not gonna shit on everything that preceded because it's gonna make it look like none of this mattered, mattered in the past. None of this had any meaning for you that you, instead of I leave, it reached an end, but I take with me that which it was and what it gave to all of us.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  This mattered, you mattered.

• 37:39Esther Perel?

  This is parallel process between groups and.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. And, and when you don't have a moment to say goodbye, you actually sort of drag it with you. It allows, it creates space, not unlike a romantic relationship. It creates space for new relationships, new friendships, new jobs, new positions in your life.

• 37:58Esther Perel?

  In dating life, it creates a space for not meeting someone and telling them all the horrible things about your ex.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 38:05Esther Perel?

  Here's the thing, this is a very good book, first of all. It, it has so much of what we're talking about and so much more. And there is not a person that has not experienced conflict between us and others and internally. We didn't even talk that much about internal conflict between the generations. And one thing specifically that you highlighted that I really wanna speak to, even though we won't dig into it, is that something fundamental has changed in relationships that is changing conflict, which is that for most of history, we lived in relational systems that were deterministic.

• 38:47Esther Perel?

  They, we didn't choose them, we were part of them. Be it religion, community, ethnic group, family. You, you went in and relationships were tight knots. You couldn't get out. So when you can't get out, the culture finds a system to have a release valve. It creates times and places for people to come clean, to be accountable, for their debts to be excused, for apologies to be made, for majlis to be created where we settle dispute and we come to reflect, for yom kippur to exist where we make amends to people. Today, the burden is on us.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  It is.

• 39:27Esther Perel?

  And we have the choice to be in and out of relationships. We've gone from tight knots to loose threads, but we don't have the skills.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  Or the rituals, or the shared rituals.

• 39:37Esther Perel?

  That's correct, that's correct. Thank you, thank you, to do that. And I think that your book enters into that gap.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 39:46Esther Perel?

  You know, of what we don't have that is not transmitted to us. Intergenerationally, culturally, and that we have to decide to do ourselves, how do I have this conversation?

• 39:57Speaker 01

  And how do we have these conversations?

• 40:03Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 40:17Speaker 03

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• 40:44Speaker 06

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• 41:13Speaker 05

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• 41:31Esther Perel?

  So I want to read the last sentence from your book because I have another thought.

• 41:37Esther Perel?

  Because I thought it was just so beautiful. I don't even know in what chapter it was. But it says like this, "The artful fighter," first of all, it's beautiful, "an artful fighter pays close attention to the need of the group and formulates the right question to help the clouds, pregnant with rain, release and water the earth. The right question asked and answered in each other's presence helps a group, and I will add, a relationship, a couple, a family metabolize itself."

• 42:11Esther Perel?

  I think that any true expert is an expert on questions, often more than on answers. That's what I think you are. And then I thought, since I am the couples therapist, and I know that you have a very charismatic, assertive husband. I do. And you are both publishing books at the same time. We are, we are. You know. Now you're really raising the heat. Do they need my help? Can I be part of the reciprocity? Wow, wow, wow. I mean, absolutely. And I thought, you know, let's call Anand. Wow.

• 42:53Esther Perel?

  This is, where should we begin? Just between us.

• 42:58Esther Perel?

  Monsieur Anand. Wow, wow.

• 43:01Speaker 07

  Wow. You thought you could only get one side of the story?

• 43:07Esther Perel?

  I said, I saw him perform a bit of jealousy, and I thought, it can't just be a performance only.

• 43:15Speaker 07

  Wow.

• 43:17Esther Perel?

  I thought, since we've been talking for an hour about conflict and the timeliness of a book about conflict at this moment, at a time when so many of us often just flake out rather than take on the matters and show how much we care, can I be of any help to the two of you? I know you a little, I love you dearly. Do you know, two books at the same time may create some kind of conflict, even if it's a mixture between compersion and the joy for each other's successes and jealousy or envy. And I thought, let me just ask you, how can I be of service, as they say?

• 43:57Speaker 07

  I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm only completely and unreservedly. Sorry, let me read the statement more closely.

• 44:05Speaker 07

  Priya, can you email me the statement again?

• 44:10Speaker 07

  It is, look, it is such a funny situation.

• 44:14Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 44:14Speaker 07

  Because it is literally, I think for both of us, the situation in which we are the most happy for the other, not just this one, but anytime you are putting something out in the world. And we are such, you know, some couples live very separate work lives, at least, or very separate all kinds of lives. But we are really enmeshed in each other's work. I think what I write would be very different without Priya's influence and feedback and rounds of edits and whatever else. I think she would probably say the same.

• 44:46Esther Perel?

  Deeply.

• 44:47Speaker 07

  And at the same time, we did end up in this slightly awkward situ, or very awkward situation, where we have these twin books coming out in the same month. It was not our plan. Our publisher thought it was originally going to be in the same day.

• 45:04Esther Perel?

  Oh, my God.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were, that was the first fight.

• 45:06Speaker 07

  We fought and used all of our clout and power. Priya writing some very strong Art of Fighting informed emails to get them separated by three weeks.

• 45:16Esther Perel?

  You must separate us, you must separate us. Man in the Mirror and the Art of Fighting can't be the same day.

• 45:22Speaker 07

  And I'll tell you the, how I feel about it in a second. But I think, because I do know where I am. But what was really interesting, when we actually were trying to even just get them separated, or maybe by a longer period, was we were quite aligned on why and how, you know, how demanding it is when you create something that like a family is putting something in the world. Our kids are part of putting this in the world in a way. And we think of it that way. I know you and Jack think of your creative projects that way.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 45:55Speaker 07

  And part of what came back to us is how many people don't see it that way in the world.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  That's so true.

• 46:01Speaker 07

  Right? How many people really kind of view you or view people who are as kind of these individual market nodes?

• 46:08Esther Perel?

  Or how much they saw it as a power maneuver of which book is more important, which author deserves more, rather than an attempt by two people to create differentiation so that each can get the attention that they deserve.

• 46:23Speaker 07

  And yes, and honestly, it was not each of us trying to get maximized attention. That's not the constraint.

• 46:29Esther Perel?

  Not from the outside, from each other and from your family.

• 46:32Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 46:33Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 46:34Speaker 07

  And it was how many, how demanding are we being on our friends? Like you, I think of you very much like this. We are people who I think give a lot to our community. And then at certain moments, we ask a lot of our community. And we think that's what community is. And so how many times in a month are you asking your friends to do some outlandish thing for you? They, I'm not concerned about like both of us being on CBS This Morning, you know, but, but it was sort of haunting, I think, both of us. I'm just like, are we going to be people who are just like draining our community and begging for too many things from people we care about, who love us but maybe won't love us at the end of this fall? So that was the feeling.

• 47:16Speaker 07

  Now, you know, I, I think what's really interesting is we really do have a lot of compersion, I love that word, for each other's success in this way. I once had a friend ask me like, it must be hard for you, you know, seeing Priya do so well. And I was like so confused by the question. I didn't understand, it was, it just didn't track for me. But I think there are moments when, you know, in the last few months of just putting all of this together, like I got, we got a few, I got a few emails. Priya may have gotten some like, we can't have you on the show, but you know, but at least we had Priya, or like hopefully having Priya as a consolation prize.

• 48:00Speaker 07

  And so what's again interesting is

• 48:02Esther Perel?

  Wow.

• 48:03Speaker 07

  We are, we are two people. Sometimes a publisher will say, well, you're your own people, you know? And then sometimes a show might say, well, we've had you, so we can't have the other. The world has a very confused attitude to what a couple is. And the last thing I'll say is, I think what, obviously, in the history of the world, the couple where two people were engaged in the world in this way and both doing things is a relatively new invention.

• 48:31Esther Perel?

  Can I ask you a question, Anand?

• 48:33Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 48:33Esther Perel?

  What's one thing that you have learned from Priya or by living with Priya about the way you handle conflict?

• 48:42Speaker 07

  Many, many, many things.

• 48:45Speaker 07

  I think at an instinctual level, I have more of an orientation of, I'm not, I'm not connected to Italy by ancestry, but I have a little more of a Sicilian kind of orientation, right? That I will do anything for people I consider my people to ends that like are completely not helpful to me or even.

• 49:07Esther Perel?

  But one should not be on your bad side.

• 49:09Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 49:11Speaker 07

  And and that and that is true for me, that's true for people who are unkind to people I care about. Certainly true about kids. Um, I think Priya's brain, partly because of her upbringing, goes to the place of, let me think about the story of why that might be plausible for that person, or why that might make sense for that person. It is always looking for, you know, that story.

• 49:36Esther Perel?

  Translation.

• 49:37Speaker 07

  Translation.

• 49:38Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:38Speaker 07

  Um, and I think that makes us sometimes better and worse situated or positioned for different things that come up in life. Um, it may sound to the listener like Priya's approach is the more humane, wonderful, and it is, it it is, I'm willing to concede that. But, you know, sometimes you're in a situation that actually is a protection situation.

• 49:57Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 49:58Speaker 07

  You know, um, sometimes you're in a situation that is an understanding situation. And I think, you know, I understand the world, process the world as, you know, a lot of what goes on is not, um.

• 50:15Esther Perel?

  Fair and just.

• 50:16Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:18Esther Perel?

  You know, it's interesting, when you were talking, I thought, what are the words that are coming up for me as I listen to you? And if we had one more hour, you know, I would be talking about vindictiveness, vengeance. We had the word grudge, they're all parts of conflict life.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:35Esther Perel?

  You know, that you see in groups, in families, in friendships, in in personalities, uh, restitutive justice, retributive justice. You know, all, it's like such a vast world when you look at the world of conflict, um, which is related to the world of connection and disconnection, but, um, it it it's a, this thing of don't mess with me, I am, because the don't mess with me is often on the other side fiercely loyal. Like what you will do for your people, that, but one should not be on your bad side because then you get the flip side of that. And I think all of that to me is in in my world, part of conflict.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Abs, I mean, absolutely. I think what's also interesting uh about both Anand and I in different ways is, I mean, most people don't know we're married. I mean, they now do because of you, but most people don't know we're married. And and most people would think that our work is very different, but the people who really know actually realize that Anand and I have shared questions.

• 51:37Esther Perel?

  And there is such complementarity in the way that you are approaching those questions.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  And as I listen to even the words you're using around conflict, his book, his new book.

• 51:47Esther Perel?

  Is a, is a.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Is a book about conflict and about belonging, Man in the Mirror. It's literally called Man in the Mirror, after a Michael Jackson song, uh, that because it's a story of a black mentally ill homeless man who entered a subway, uh, screaming threats and a white former marine who took out his ear pods, uh, stood up, put him in a, like a, what's the word?

• 52:13Speaker 07

  Chokehold.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  A chokehold and killed him. And that case became a Rorschach test for America. What do you see in that moment? And Man in the Mirror is a, is a narrative nonfiction. It's a beautiful, beautiful piece of work that asks these questions of what

• 52:34Speaker 01

  happens in a city and why are all of the, what are all of the things that are not happening? To allow for a moment, a tragedy like that on the subway. And so much of what Man in the Mirror is, I mean, in a way, Man in the Mirror, he is, it's a ten week court trial that Anand is in as a journalist every single day to look at what should justice be? Who decides? What are our collective rituals? What should be done with mental illness? What should be done with homelessness? And so in many ways, I mean, part of the reasons why we wanted the books separated is because both of them in, both of them are entire worlds unto themselves. And Man in the Mirror is also deeply about conflict and belonging.

• 53:19Esther Perel?

  So I want to say something as a, as a parting word. It's interesting. I once wanted to write an article about creative couples. Not stable couples, not lasting couples, creative couples.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Don't worry. So we're not stable or lasting, but we are creative.

• 53:37Speaker 07

  There is a third door.

• 53:43Esther Perel?

  But I, and then I interviewed like almost a hundred people.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 53:47Esther Perel?

  And I never wrote the piece, actually, but I have all the notes. And but two of the main things that kept coming back was creative couples are couples where there is a deep sense of admiration. Not respect only, but admiration, because admiration involves a certain kind of idealization. You look up to someone that you admire. And, um, and in that sense, each person is kind of able to see the otherness and appreciate that otherness. It's not just, you know, compersion, I mean, it involves that, but it it involves difference in the, in its midst, which is what conflict tries to address. It addresses difference. And then the second part was the celebration of the other person's freedom.

• 54:31Esther Perel?

  In order to be able to be invested in something that is entirely theirs, there needs to be a space, a, a, a freedom for that person to engage in that.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 54:41Esther Perel?

  And, um, I, I just want to leave you with that because I felt both of those things right now. And one of the things for me that that always highlighted that is that if I meet a couple and instead of talking about themselves, the person actually talks about the work of their partner, the work, the accomplishment, the merit, something that they admire, that they, you know, you're meeting me, but you should meet my wife or you should meet my partner. Um, that that is one of those signs where you recognize that you're in that realm of the creative pair. So you are for me that.

• 55:18Speaker 07

  I, I, I feel that way and I, I really, um,

• 55:23Speaker 07

  I, one of, one of the great, uh, things that that happened in my life is meeting Priya and knowing within approximately three hours that I wanted to marry her, which was a pretty fast thing. And part of why I knew that, I didn't know so much about it. I don't, I didn't know, you know, one percent of what I know now. But I did know something that has to do with this conversation about, I don't know, there was something about a way of looking at people and situations that granted

• 56:00Speaker 07

  them a kind of humanity that a lot of people don't. And I think that has been a through line of Priya's life. I think she had no choice at a certain point in life, but to, but to behave with really exaggerated granting of faith in people. Um, and that has become as it, you know, for some people, that kind of bad situation just remains a bad situation or a trauma. I think for Priya, it became a superpower. And, you know, I'm not embarrassed to say, I think the, the biggest, one of the biggest differences between us is at the heart of what the art of fighting is arguing,

• 56:43Speaker 07

  which is sometimes for me, when I feel really hurt by someone or I feel like there's not reciprocity or all the things that that happen, I'm just ready to say, you know, maybe it's not meant to be, maybe we don't need to, you know. And there's a lot of fish in the sea, that kind of thing. And Priya, really, not just in a book, not just in a, you know, a, a thesis, Priya really tries with people. She really, really tries with people. She, she doesn't roll over for them, but she tries to talk, she tries to understand in her own head. She tries to ask, she tries to have the conversation.

• 57:28Speaker 07

  She just, I think at some level, deeply believes in trying.

• 57:34Speaker 07

  And, look, the art of gathering helped a lot of people do a lot of things, some trivial, some very important and everything in between. But I think this is on a different

• 57:46Esther Perel?

  Level.

• 57:47Speaker 07

  Level. This is about, to, to me, given what I work on, I would say this is about like whether we can do a society or not.

• 57:55Esther Perel?

  Yeah, I know you were gonna say that. Anand, I was holding Priya's hand because I wanted her to receive what you were just saying. And she's often in the giving role and in the doing role. So I think it's a beautiful thing for her to just sit and have her eyes wet and have you lavish on her. See you soon.

• 58:16Speaker 07

  See you.

• 58:17Esther Perel?

  Bye.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  Pink Panther is here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 59:34Speaker 05

  Hey, Bose here. On your next track, listen for the decisions. Distortion on the bass, the vocal right up front, every choice deliberate. With Bose, you'll hear it all. Your music deserves Bose.