AMA with Devin Finzer, Co-Founder & CEO of OpenSea

Devin Finzer is Co-Founder & CEO of OpenSea, the largest decentralized NFT marketplace for buying and selling digital goods. Like all our AMAs, this was streamed live and incorporated questions from our Inner Circle Discord and live YouTube Chat. These are hosted the 2nd and 4th Wednesday each month, so mark your calendars, tune in, and ask your questions! ----- 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: http://bankless.substack.com/​​​ http://bankless.substack.com/%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/​​​ http://podcast.banklesshq.com/%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B ----- GO BANKLESS WITH THESE SPONSOR TOOLS: ⭐️ AAVE - BORROW OR LEND YOUR ASSETS https://bankless.cc/aave​​​ https://bankless.cc/aave%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B 🚀 GEMINI - MOST TRUSTED EXCHANGE AND ONRAMP https://bankless.cc/go-gemini​​​ https://bankless.cc/go-gemini%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B 💳 MONOLITH - GET THE HOLY GRAIL OF BANKLESS VISA CARDS https://bankless.cc/monolith​​​ https://bankless.cc/monolith%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B 📱 DHARMA - MOBILE ONRAMP DIRECTLY INTO DEFI https://bankless.cc/dharma ------ Resources: OpenSea https://opensea.io/ Devin on Twitter https://twitter.com/dfinzer?s=20 ----- THIS WEEK ON BANKLESS: 📈 Market Monday (3/8): https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/eip-1559-on-the-horizon-market-monday 🎙️ Podcast | Bankless 2.0 (3/8): https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/-welcome-to-bankless-2021-edition 🛠️Tactic | Synthetic Stocks (3/9): https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/how-to-trade-synthetic-stocks 🏴State of the Nation | 3LAU (3/9): https://youtu.be/5KY9W3Ybmdc 🐦 Follow Bankless on Twitter: https://twitter.com/BanklessHQ ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  They're here, who is the co-founder of OpenSea. And David, the topic is the NFTs because NFTs are absolutely blowing up right now. Talk about NFTs. What's going on in this world right now, David?

• 0:13David Hoffman?

  Sorry to cut you off, Ryan. Didn't go live. So we are doing it right now. Now start over.

• 0:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay. All right, Bankless Nation, we are super excited to bring you this community Ask Me Anything. This is your opportunity to ask our guest question. We are streaming this live on YouTube. We usually do this on the second and fourth Wednesday of the month. This time it's Thursday, but next time it will be the fourth Wednesday of March. So check it out. You can also get it on the podcast the day after. I'm super excited about our guest today because the subject is topical. The subject is absolutely blowing up. We're talking about NFTs today. And there's so much going on in the NFT world. We've got an absolute expert. This is Devin Finzer, who is the co-founder of OpenSea. David, what's going on with NFTs? Why are we bringing on a guest to talk about NFTs?

• 1:04David Hoffman?

  Yeah, people would think that like we're done talking about NFTs. But like, NFTs aren't done like maturing or being discovered by people. So the surface area for NFTs is endless. And the news of this week is that Rob Gronkowski, otherwise known as Gronk, pro football player, tight end for, I'm not a football person, big football player. Yeah, Tampa Bay. Dropped NFTs, right? And so we have now pro sports athletes dropping NFTs. People, as of this morning, sold an NFT for $69 million. What? So the rabbit hole just keeps on going. And so a really important piece of infrastructure for NFTs is OpenSea,

• 1:48David Hoffman?

  which is a place that I use to explore and kind of view my inventory of NFTs and also see the inventories of NFTs that are out there. But there's also so much more that it does as well. So we got Devin on to just ask what's up with OpenSea. And so we're going to bring him on in just a sec.

• 2:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Guys, start queuing your questions in YouTube if you have them. We're going to start with some questions from David and myself, but we will get to your questions as we see them in YouTube. Before we get to Devon, start talking about OpenSea, start talking about NFTs. We want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible.

• 2:23David Hoffman?

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• 3:07David Hoffman?

  which are synthetic assets that move inversely to their target asset. Synthetix isn't just for traders. Developers can build on Synthetix to access the infinite liquidity offered by synthetic assets. Or investors can stake collateral to the protocol and earn fees that the protocol collects. If you're a trader and you're looking for a trading platform and not found in the legacy world, check out quanta.io. If you're a developer or you just want to earn yield on your collateral, go to wwwsynthetix.io, where you can stake your SNX or ETH and earn fees from Synthetix. If you want to live a bankless life, you need to get a Monolith DeFi Visa Card. Monolith is both a one-two punch of an Ethereum smart contract wallet,

• 3:50David Hoffman?

  as well as an accompanying Visa Card that lets you spend the money that you have in your Ethereum wallet wherever Visa is accepted. It's really a fantastic tool that lets you use Ethereum for what it does best, which is holding and managing your financial assets, but also keeps you connected to the rest of the world's payment rails. Monolith also offers on-ramp services for getting your fiat money into the world of DeFi. So it's trivial to top up your Monolith Card if ever you need to, and your deposited money goes straight into your non-custodial wallet. So your money is never held by a centralized intermediary, because your Monolith Wallet is native to Ethereum. Monolith helps you transcend both the legacy and the crypto worlds because the money

• 4:32David Hoffman?

  that you hold in your Monolith wallet has the power of DeFi behind it. Swapping assets on Uniswap or earning yield in DeFi is at your fingertips. But with Monolith, so are the groceries at your grocery store or the coffee at your coffee shop. Go to monolith.xyz to sign up and get your Monolith Visa card today.

• 4:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hey, this is Devin Finzer, who is the co-founder of OpenSea. He's also a non-fungible human. That means he is unique, cannot be exchanged with any other human being. Devin, how are you doing today?

• 5:08Speaker 02

  I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on.

• 5:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, thanks for coming on. Are you ready for this bankless AMA, sir?

• 5:13Speaker 02

  I'm ready.

• 5:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. Any questions, guys? Put them in YouTube. Let's start with this question because Devin, it really feels like NFTs are having their moment. NFTs are blowing up right now. We've got Beeple. We had ThreeLau on the podcast. We had Blau on the podcast yesterday. Sorry, not FreeLau. That's an inside joke, Dave.

• 5:35David Hoffman?

  That inside joke is made out.

• 5:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, dude.

• 5:38David Hoffman?

  I got out.

• 5:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Blau on the podcast. Rob Gronkowski now dropping NFTs. It really feels like they are being discovered, right? I mean, they've been in crypto for a while, but now they're being discovered. Why are NFTs blowing up, do you think?

• 5:54Speaker 02

  I think it's a combination of a lot of things. I think it's hard to point to one specific application and say, this was the reason NFTs blow up, right? If you pointed to Beeple, you know, you could point to Top Shot, you could point to, you know, all of these different applications that are coming online at roughly the same time. I think a lot of those added fuel to the fire, but I really think that the underlying reason was just the accumulation of a lot of hard work over the last three years from everyone who is involved in the space. So if you look at 2017, late 2017, when CryptoKitties launched, really the only thing you could do in the NFT space was you could buy a CryptoKitty, you could breed a CryptoKitty, you could sell a CryptoKitty, and that was.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  That was the entire NFT space. It was really born from that project. But over the last three years, now there's so much more. There's NFT creation, there's NFT marketplaces like ourselves. There's, you know, even brand new blockchains like Flow that are devoted specifically to NFTs. There's NFT indexes, there's NFT collateralization. And all of these things are just creating this really cool ecosystem. And then you throw some fuel on the fire with things like people selling, you know, previously for four million now for even even more. But you throw that on the fire and then you have this rich ecosystem that people can really dive into. And, you know, I think that's just a recipe for really explosive growth of the space.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  And, you know, I think for us, from our vantage point, it was interesting to see because it, you know, it was just kind of really slowly growing. It was a lot of momentum and excitement from the people who were excited about it. But really just contained to that sort of early adopter community. And now, all of a sudden, the curve is just, it's insane to see the speed at which these trends evolve and which they go viral, right? And you're sort of, you're also, the other, the last thing I would say is that you're building on this foundation of social media where everyone's already hyperconnected. So these trends can just go, you know, get broad reach really quickly through things like Twitter and Clubhouse and all of these different platforms, so.

• 8:08David Hoffman?

  So on that note, I kind of, I want to bring this question to the front of the conversation. Because there's a decent amount of like the core Ethereum people, the people that have been with Ethereum since the bear market, right? And they are seeing that growth that you are talking about, that parabola that you guys are talking about, and saying that this is unsustainable and these prices are absurd. And, you know, flashbacks to the ICO mania, it can't continue like this. What would you say to people that are worried about the sustainable nature of this new movement?

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's a good point. I think there's certainly cyclical, crypto cyclical, and I think NFTs will probably have cyclical elements to them. But I do think that this is a very, very different phenomenon from what we saw with ICOs. With ICOs, it was about these sort of projects that had this maybe nebulous long-term vision, and then it was really about investing and flipping. Whereas, there is some of that in the NFT space today, but a lot of it is around creating, curating, collecting, supporting artists directly. It's not about investing in this hype dream. A lot of the ICOs were legitimate, but some

• 9:25Speaker 02

  of them just weren't, and some of them felt really scammy and just not, and didn't feel like a good thing for the space. In this case, I think there's certainly scenarios where there's NFTs that are not worth buying, or NFTs that feel overinflated. But I really do think that this is the birth of a much more interesting renaissance in creator activity, and the design space is just so much wider than ICOs, that I think we do actually have, maybe there's going to be a little bit of a correction, but I think we have a long way up, as you were saying earlier. There's so much is underexplored right now. Whereas ICOs, it kind of felt like, at some point, there wasn't much else

• 10:10Speaker 02

  to do besides just buy the token and hope it was going up. Here, there's just a lot of richness that I think will sort of evolve over the next little while.

• 10:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  One thing that I kind of see in the NFT space, in contrast to ICOs, is NFTs almost feel, Devin, like they're more honest than ICOs were. Because with NFTs, you know exactly what you're buying. You're buying a piece of culture, you're buying a meme. Nothing's pretending to be like a utility token that can be turned into money, right? Like, we know exactly what we're buying. We're buying subjective art pieces, basically, right? And there's no, you know... Here's our business model. There's no like, um, this is how our, our token's going to magically accrue value or, you know, kill Ethereum or anything like that. It's just, these are creator communities

• 11:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  that are saying, here's our NFT. You can buy it or not. And the market is really giving the feedback as far as what, what the value of these things are. Does that resonate with you?

• 11:12Speaker 02

  No, I think that's a great, that's a great way of framing it. And I haven't, I haven't heard that sort of exact framing, but I think, um, I think that's, yeah, I, I totally agree.

• 11:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  So the other thing that I'm seeing is, um, and I love that you use, uh, a few kind of verbs, cause on bankless, we always talk about like all of the new verbs that we could do in this open money system. You use verbs like creating and, and curation and collecting, right? These are very NFT. These are collectible verbs. And, um, you know, I'm somewhat drawn to that, but like getting back to kind of the, the waves of interest here. Do you feel like part of this too, uh, part of the, you know, what we're seeing in terms of price in these big sales is we're, we're seeing different communities suddenly discover NFTs, right? So maybe we've seen kind of the, the people, digital art community suddenly discovering NFTs. And so they flood into the space. Now maybe we're seeing

• 12:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  the beginnings of the, uh, professional athlete community, right? We had Mark Cuban on who's talking about this, but you've got Gronk doing something with OpenSea and now that fan base is starting to discover it. So is that what's going, is that what we're really seeing here? And you mentioned that you still see this as, as kind of early in its discovery phase. Is that just because, you know, we're going to see wave after wave of community kind of discover this? Talk, talk to me about that process. Which communities have discovered this and who do you think is next?

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Great question. I, I think, um, well, if you zoom, if you go back in time to even, you know, early 2018, when this was first a thing, actually the community they got the most excited about NFTs was the gaming community, right? So CryptoKitties was technically a game, it was a pretty simple game. But there was this idea from sort of the fringes of, of the gaming community that maybe you could have games that were more like free market economy. Versus your traditional game where it's actually quite games are are very sophisticated in their uh sort of economic policies and economic structures. But they're completely centrally controlled and completely closed. You don't have imports, exports, you don't really, you have some entrepreneurial activity, but it's kind of looked looked down upon, right?

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Um. So what if the the idea with the gaming space was like, well, what if you took these closed economies and you opened them up? And you allowed things to move from one game to another game, you allowed open markets to exist. That was really what captivated a lot of the attention from from gamers, um from both gamers and game developers. The thing that I think was challenging was that um in order to make that work, um you know, Ethereum had a lot of limitations of the user experience. Um, you know, had a long way to go. And then, of course, what we've seen over the last six months is that gas prices really just made it difficult to support the full range of economic activity from a one dollar item to like a hundred dollar item. So gaming um has has done well in certain areas and particularly and kind of

• 14:03Speaker 02

  maybe we'll talk a little bit about this, but the the virtual real estate market projects like the central and crypto voxels and sandbox. But for the most part, things have shifted towards this more, the simpler use case where it's these really high value art pieces. Um, and I think a a large reason for that is just that the technology, it that, you know, that's what the technology can support right now. They can support things that are being sold for thousands of dollars, um but it's hard to support things that are sold for a lot less. And I think that will change over time um and really enable a broad set of use cases here. Um. In terms of what communities, I think uh will get involved, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think it's just

• 14:42Speaker 02

  community after community after community um and and, you know, goes beyond just uh uh, you know, everything from musicians, um artists, influencers, really, there is something to be done here for everyone. Um. And there's people who want to support these people who have really had a lot, a lot of trouble monetizing in the past. Um. And so that's not to say that everyone, every influencer should be able to sell millions of dollars of NFTs and. Not saying that's sustainable, but I do think that, you know, once you have the full spectrum of being able to, you know, buy an NFT for 50 cents, for example.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  You know, that's that supporting a creator through purchasing their NFT when there's, you know, the possibility of reselling it in the future is is super exciting and super compelling. And so if it's looking at kind of what I think might come next, I think expanding to just lots of different, sort of small and large. And then also expanding to the gaming use case that was sort of the early dream of the space, I think will happen with as the technology kind of gets better.

• 15:48David Hoffman?

  Devin, you alluded to this and I want to go back to this about the design space behind NFTs and drawing, drawing parallels from earlier in history, earlier in Ethereum history. We had like this early use case of ERC 20 tokens, which were this many different currencies and this turned into the ICO mania. That was unsustainable. We kind of figured out that currency wasn't really the best use case for all of these projects. But then we innovated and went through a bear market and then we came out with DeFi tokens. And that's kind of like the new paradigm for ERC 20 tokens. And we, we often talk on the Bankless program about how Ethereum is really speedrunning the history of money and finance as fast as it can.

• 16:29David Hoffman?

  Like in the last five years, we've ran through like 2,000 years of, of a human history of money and finance. And now we're kind of are where we are at today. And I think we could draw a similar parallel with NFTs and art, right? And what's unique about NFTs and art is like it's a digital token in the back graphic, digital art in the front. But that back end like hooks into financial apparatuses, right? Financial stuff, DeFi is what we call it. And so like this, this software layer that is inherently a software financial layer can be upgraded and innovated on. And so that's, you know, artists are going to work on their art. They're going to innovate on their art and that's going to be what they do and that's going to be independent from Ethereum.

• 17:14David Hoffman?

  But the NFT is also something to innovate and develop and improve upon. And so right now you said like, we are kind of stuck in this. This early phase where we just have these high value NFTs like that just represent a single piece of digital art. And that to me, sounds like the early primitives of something much cooler and much bigger down the line. Where, where do you see this first innovation coming? Like where, what is going to be the cool new innovation in? NFTs, at least on the financial and software side that really helps promote this industry. And make it sustainable in the same way DeFi tokens made ERC 20s, uh, 20 tokens sustainable.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Interesting. Yeah, I, I guess what I would say, or one, one thing to kind of think about is. Um, and I don't know if this sort of falls into your classification of like the front end art or the backend software. But um, I do think that at the end of the day, these assets can represent all sorts of. Things in the existing digital world or even the real world. So for example, like. Right now, you know, you have these simple, um, pieces of digital art that people buy and they're just. The provenance is sort of the, the main thing about it, right? The fact that it came from people. Makes it exciting and compelling and makes people want to spend millions of dollars on it. But um, there's also just the raw utility of, of one of these NFTs. So for example.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  You could imagine, um, selling event tickets as NFTs. Um, and those event tickets could be. In a real world event or they could be in a virtual event. Um, in the gaming space, you can sell swords inside of a, a video game, right? Um, or you could sell courses as NFTs or for musicians and creators and influencers. You could sell access to exclusive content, um, or access to special privileges. Um, I think there's a whole, I think we're starting with just collectibles. Um, but layering utility on top of these things, um, is going to be really compelling. Um, but I do think that, um, sort of, uh, to, to what I was saying earlier. Um, I think that in order to have, or I think one of the unlocks will be having the full spectrum of.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Economic, uh, activity on these assets. And I do think that you need to be able to have. A scenario where someone can buy something for just a dollar or just $2. So I think a big unlock and probably, you know, also a big. Online for DeFi as well is being able to not have to spend fifty dollars in gas to acquire an NFT. And at that point, you know, you you're not just sort of talking about these super exclusive, like, high value collector art items, then you're talking about things that just are useful because, you know, digital stuff on the internet is already useful in some contexts and there's no reason that it can't be traded on open markets and usable in other applications and just a better sort of more open primitive for for digital stuff.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  As an example, like, you know, anything from like, you know, DJs will sell their their snippets of samples from their music, right? And they do that on like a, you know, some some marketplace out there. There's no reason that that couldn't be an NFC as well and be tradable on, you know, hundreds of different marketplaces.

• 20:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  I I like the analogy, the analogy I've heard of what you're describing these like. So we have the high value transactions going on right now in the NFT world and in DeFi in general to like, soon in the future, we'll have the lower value NFT transactions and there'll be many of them. It's it's very similar to like the bandwidth of the internet, right? In the early days, when we had fifty six K modems, we couldn't load graphics, we couldn't stream movies, we couldn't have interactive gaming experiences. What did we need more infrastructure? We needed high bandwidth in order to do that. And this is very much what NFTs are doing and what crypto is is doing. More trustless transactions per second. That's kind of the one element of of bandwidth of this entire space.

• 21:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  But Devin, we we've come this far and I want to get into what OpenSea is. Because that's important for us. And I know there there are a ton of bankless listeners who are actually users of OpenSea. We've done tactics on OpenSea, like how to how to trade an ENS name, which is a, you know, a domain name specific to Ethereum, it's an early NFT case. Can you tell us what OpenSea actually is? And as you're doing so, can you fit it in the context of all the other things like layers that you see are important in understanding the NFT market space and what goes on here?

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Sure. So OpenSea is a marketplace for NFTs. So you can think of it kind of like an eBay or Amazon. But instead of physical items being traded around, we trade these digital assets. And these are of course NFTs. In terms of how we kind of fit into the ecosystem, I think one, one kind of way to think about NFTs is when you own a physical item. You can kind of do whatever you want with that physical thing, right? You could go and you could give it to someone across the world. You could throw it in the trash if you really wanted to. You could go and sell it on eBay.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  With digital assets, there's never really been a digital asset eBay, right? Because you don't actually, you've never owned your digital stuff, right? So now that you do own your digital stuff, you can go and you can sell any NFT that's out there on OpenSea, right? You can come and you can, you know, you can connect your MetaMask wallet. You can see all of your stuff in your wallet and then you can go and put it on sale or you can go and browse and purchase stuff. Now, I think David, you were mentioning another sort of role of OpenSea, which was that we started so early in the space.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  We actually started like right after Cryptocat's launch that we, we became sort of this explorer for NFTs. So we index every NFT that's out there on the market. And we allow you to kind of dive in and see the history of the NFT. So if you click on one of those NFTs in the, in the screen share here, you can go and look at all of the events that have happened on that NFT. So when was it created? When was it transferred? Sort of the provenance of it. And so we're sort of like an EtherScan, but a little more oriented towards consumers as opposed to developers. So that's another, another function.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  And then the last thing I would say is that one thing that we've gotten into recently is just better tools for creators who want to go and issue NFTs really easily. So these Rob Gunkowski NFTs, for example, were actually created on OpenSea and then just sold directly through our platform. So we've been investing in making that easier as well.

• 24:07David Hoffman?

  Devin, I want to dive into something that you said. You said OpenSea is an indexer for NFTs. And this is a subject matter that I've been trying to wrap my head around and I think is really, really important. So a piece of digital art can go through a hashing algorithm and spit out a hash. And that is what an NFT cites when it cites that this is the token. This hash is represented by this token and that's how we connect the art to the token. The art doesn't exist on Ethereum because art is very large in data. Art can be up to like many, many megabytes and a single Ethereum block is less than one megabyte, right? So you can't actually put art on the blockchain. It needs to cite an alternative database.

• 24:50David Hoffman?

  And the way that we solve this problem is we just say that, well, this token, we take that information. We take that data, run it through a hashing algorithm and append to that hash to the token. And that's how we say that these things are connected. The problem is, is if that database goes down, we kind of lose access to the art, but the hash is still persistent. So if that image is circulating on the internet as data does on the internet, it circulates infinitely copyable. That persistency is available, but what you're saying is that OpenSea is you guys index all of this stuff, which to me represents some sort of redundancy or anti-fragility, right? So like, what if for some unfortunate reason, Nifty Gateway goes down?

• 25:32David Hoffman?

  And you lose access to visualizing your NFT and your art. But at least OpenSea has done some amount of indexing to help retain that sort of digitally native aspect of the art. Can you talk about that and why that's so important?

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's a great point and actually to give a couple of examples of this happening. This was maybe a year ago or something. We saw a bunch of games kind of shut down. So they would launch their NFTs. They'd allow them to be tradable. They'd have this really simple game associated with it and then kind of decided like, you know, this isn't really working out. So we're going to go and do something else. And so there were these communities of people who had bought these game items. You know, they know that like, there's always a chance that the game, you know. Stops stops developing itself. It's an early alpha, early beta. But what they but what they decided was, well, all of the game items are still out there on Ethereum. You can still look at them on OpenSea.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  And they decided to go and and rally the community about around building the game. So they sort of built the game, rebuilt the game. They, you know, took over the website and, you know, that's possible and without NFTs. But it's a lot harder, right? Because the database is like very proprietary. You know, you might, the user login system is probably like some some proprietary system. And the assets aren't like, you know, maybe they're they're like kind of deleted or whatever. And so doing this where you can sort of revive the project by because the assets are still out there. And because OpenSea is sort of serving, as you said, redundancy layer is really interesting.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  And so I think, yeah, there there is this challenge on on Ethereum around the limitations of what you can store on chain. And typically you just store the ownership layer on Ethereum. And then the actual metadata layer is off chain. And so what we've provided is sort of a utility for joining those two, right? So the ownership layer will always be managed by this decentralized system. But there's these these parties that kind of act as indexers or kind of utilities for pulling in that data and making it available to users and and providing it even if the original project shuts down.

• 27:57David Hoffman?

  Devin, I got a question from YouTube that is specifically about this. And maybe you've already answered it in part, but I would like to address the question a little bit more directly. This is from Zeta four on YouTube. Thanks for the question. Can we please talk about asset hosting, which is what we're talking about? There was a recent example of someone changing the art asset after an NFT was sold on OpenSea. IPFS slash are we support when? Question mark. Maybe you could also talk about what IPFS or are we support and how that can help this whole all of this infrastructure?

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Right, right. Yeah, I think it's, so to kind of dive into the technical details, when, when NFTs first emerged, you had CryptoKitties, and again, they had the CryptoKitties IDs stored on the blockchain, but then the CryptoKitty metadata, the name, description, image, was stored on their own servers, right? And so if CryptoKitties ever shut down, you know, there'd still be the redundancy of OpenSea, but the sort of original source of truth for the CryptoKitties would disappear. And so now what, what people have started doing, or you know, what a lot of projects do, especially these really high-value art projects, is they store the metadata on a decentralized file storage system like IPFS or Arweave.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  And then we can sort of go and pull that and post it on our own servers so that it can be easily displayed, but that source of truth is, you know, as long as those decentralized networks keep on running, you can't really tamper with the original metadata and you can't mutate it, you can't change it. So in terms of OpenSea, we are working on, currently when you create an asset on OpenSea, we, we just use our sort of caching layer and we post it centrally. And it, and it does mean that if, if you wanted to go and change the metadata, you could. But we are work, actively working on making, giving you a bunch of different options. So if you want to use a decentralized file storage system to mint your NFTs, you're welcome to.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  And I do think that that's a very important piece of the space to keep the art truly decentralized and not dependent on a third party. I will say that I think sometimes people, I think there's an important element with all of these conversations around pragmatism, right? And I think, you know, there are often, oftentimes I think people overlook how strong the incentives can be to maintain these sorts of platforms and the, and, and maintain the metadata in a, in a way that aligns with the user's interests. For example, for a game building assets, right, like they're incentivized, they're not going to necessarily go and

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Change the assets willy nilly and if they do, OpenSea will have a record of that, right? So there's still accountability in place if you're using a centralized API. But I do definitely agree that like as time goes on, especially for these really high value art pieces, it's critical to have them stored on decentralized file storage systems as opposed to just on central servers.

• 31:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  So Devin, we often talk about all of crypto as this new digital economy that has suddenly sprung up. So we've got the traditional economy on the left and then you've got this bridge. Exchanges are often a bridge and then you've got the new economy, the Ethereum economy, the digital economy, the crypto economy, whatever you'd like to call it. The cool thing about this new economy is that there is, as Chris Berninski has said on the podcast before, infinite white space. So there are all of these opportunities and on Bankless, we make the analogy of it's like heading west to a land of new opportunity where we can set up towns and shops and create California entirely new economies, right?

• 31:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Can you talk about your, we were talking about those verbs earlier, the curating and the creating and the collecting type of verbs. What sort of opportunities are there for laborers, for entrepreneurs in NFTs specifically that you're seeing who are using OpenSea? I recall the early days of the internet and suddenly there was a job, you could be an eBay seller like full time. How do people make money in this new economy specifically with NFTs on OpenSea?

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I think there's just so much opportunity and I would maybe categorize it into a few different buckets. One is if you're a creator, I think, you know, not suggesting that people do this, but we have seen people leave their jobs to just become full-time digital artists and sort of follow their passion. And I think just at a high level, one of the really exciting things that's happening is that we're seeing the first instances of sort of the jobs of the future, right? Where we've always talked about like Someone being like a VR architect or like just going and pursuing a creative passion and being able to monetize it. Um, and being able to have an in a sustainable income off of that.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Um, so I, I think we're seeing that at the very beginnings of that. Um, and so if you're a creator, I think, um, there's tons of opportunities to get involved. And again, you know, it is a little bit challenging on Ethereum today because you're, you're sort of, uh, marketing to these really high. Or you're typically marketing really high value stuff, but I think that will really change over time. Um, and, and really be, you'll be able to sell to people who don't, who don't have tons of money, but want to contribute at least a little bit, right? And, and aren't looking to split. And maybe, maybe they do get to benefit from the upside of the future, but the main sort of use case is just supporting the artist. And in a way that's a little, that is a little more participatory than something like Patreon where you're just literally donating, right?

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Um, so I think the creator opportunity is huge right now. Um, then I think a second, uh, sort of class of opportunities is the developer opportunity. And here it's anything from, um, you know, uh, an indie developer or, you know, someone doing a side project to, uh, to a company that's starting in the NFT space. And really going after a bigger vision. Um, and in the sort of first category, I think there's so much opportunity to push to the frontier of the programmability of NFTs. Um, so, uh, most NFTs today are just a raw, you own it and you can send it around and you can buy and sell it. And maybe it has some utility in the real world. Maybe it's an event ticket or something like that.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  But the smart contract layer, it's super dead simple. It's just, you know, raw ERC seven twenty one or raw ERC eleven fifty five. What some developers are doing is they're really pushing the, what, what's happening at the smart contract level. So they're creating generative art projects where the artist sort of randomly generated from a transaction path. Um, you know, there's, maybe there's two tokens involved. There's the NFTs and then there's also sort of an ERC twenty that feeds into the economic system. You know, create some incentive system around it and then. You know, the the art, you know, maybe change over time depending on and playing around bonding curves. There's so much, there's just so much to do there.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  If you if you have a little bit of development experience or you're you're interested in acquiring it, I think it's a really fertile ground. And I'll I feel like I'm a broken record here, but I think it'll really get more fertile as we have more scalable solutions where again, you're not paying super high transaction costs. So so that's the the second opportunity. And then probably the third one is for companies, right? I think I do think that this is sort of the beginning of the brand new platform and the brand new paradigm that's been accumulating over the last while, you know, and and and very much intersects with all of the stuff that's happening in DeFi. So I think there's going to be really ripe opportunities to build powerful brands around that,

• 35:52Speaker 02

  powerful consumer experiences like like the ones, the one we built at OpenSea or we're building at OpenSea. I think there's there's going to be more of that as time goes on. So tons, tons of opportunity, definitely the Wild West.

• 36:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know, one thing I was thinking as you were saying that is sometimes the biggest opportunities can be the synthesis of of some of those things put together, right? So like, if if you are on the the the the front lines of this and really understand the NFT world, you know, there's also the speculative nature to these assets, these crypto assets. But what if you can speculate on interesting communities, interesting NFTs? And use, if you're a developer, use your development skills to then improve those NFTs and improve that community and realize the value on the other side. Like, there's so much you can plug into as far as like, taking existing NFTs and even adding them to something that you're doing and making it better.

• 36:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm I'm I'm somewhat reminded of like, your private equity firms who will sometimes come into a company and buy a portion of it, they'll invest in that company. But they come into that company and turn around their their management, for instance, and add some value in the process. You can kind of do that with NFTs because there is this investment nature to them as well. If you are actively improving the community and improving the culture, you can realize the upside in some of those gains too. So fascinating space.

• 37:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  Devin, we're going to get right back to you with some more questions, take some of the questions from YouTube. I think we've also got some around this, this new world of higher economic bandwidth that we want to see with NFTs that we've got to get to. But first, before we do, we want to tell you about the sponsors that made this episode possible.

• 37:32David Hoffman?

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• 39:57David Hoffman?

  All right, guys, we are back with Devin of OpenSea. I want to get right into a question that we got on the Bankless YouTube from Risky Car, I think is the username. How how is OpenSea helping democratize access to NFTs, right? NFTs are this cool new tool, cool new financial tool. And the power of Ethereum is that it's democratizing access to all of these financial tools. Yet, these gas fees are an issue and really just getting in the way of that democratization of these new financial tools that can really allow creators to create. How can we help? How is OpenSea helping like provide better and stronger access to these tools? To help creators create without having to worry about hundred dollar gas fees that are denominated in ETH?

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I would say there's sort of the short term stuff we're doing and then the more medium term stuff, which is which is coming on the horizon very quickly, actually. But in the short run, we've done a good number of sort of optimizations around gas usage. So we allow you to kind of mint your NFT without paying gas in a process we call lazy minting, which allows you to kind of get an NFT up there and then the gas is paid when it's actually purchased. So you don't have the same upfront costs. There is one kind of upfront transaction that you have to do to get set up. But then, once you've done that transaction, you can kind of mint for free and sell for free. And but there's still that gas cost burden on the buyer. So that's kind of like one of the short term things we've done.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  But long term, OpenSea, so we are working very collaboratively with lots of the layer two.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Solution and even lots of the um layer one solutions that are coming online and the way that we see things is evolving is that we'll really have a multi-chain ecosystem for NFTs. And applications like ourselves will introduce people to this more scalable technology, but really just benefit. Um, you know, for example, we're not going to go and build, at least right now, we're we're not gonna uh, we're not launching like OpenSea Chain or something like that, or building kind of like our own solution. Um, but you know, maybe an interesting strategy in the long term, depending on how things shape out, but um, we're we're actually just kind of working really closely with all of these different chain chains.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  And many of them are ready today in production with NFT projects that have been begging us to support them and trade them. Um, and today you can actually go and you can explore um NFTs on the Matic uh or Polygon Network on OpenSea. Um, they they'll show up in your regular Ethereum account when you click on one, um, it'll say Matic Trading is is coming soon. So we haven't launched trading support yet, but we're already starting to um explore, allow people to explore these NFTs on OpenSea. Um, and trading is sort of a fast follow. Um, and then on the other sort of non-layer-two side of things, um, we're also um, we've been really good uh friends with the folks at Dapper Labs for a long time.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  Around supporting Flow, we just announced that um, we'll eventually be launching Flow Support. Uh, we're also collaborating with Tazo. So we're taking this pretty broad um approach and saying like, you know, we really want to be a home for user-owned digital assets regardless of what chain they're on. Of course, we have to be judicious about just kind of being spread thin across too many chains. Um, but ultimately, that's kind of the direction we we see things going and um, a lot of these new blockchains are really just kind of uh, you know, the the biggest thing that they want is user experiences where people can go in and get their hands dirty. And and try out these um cheaper um transactions uh on on you know, something like Matic.

• 43:43David Hoffman?

  Devin, I want to beat a dead horse really quick because we have so many guests that come on like from L2 protocols or DeFi apps implementing on L2 and then we have, you know, people like Vitalik come on and say like sharding is just a few months away. And as a content producer, it's always kind of funny because so many people say like, "Oh yeah, it's just, it's like right around the corner. It's just like, it's just right there." And the thing is the timelines that people are giving are coming closer and closer and closer. So like L2s used to be a year away. Now they're like a couple of months away, but they're never actually here, right? They're never actually arrived. Maybe, maybe you can just give some comments as to that. It's like, "Okay, sure. Like, cool. You can, you can do some stuff on Matic now, but like,

• 44:25David Hoffman?

  what's, what is this actually going to be in front of the user's face where they are actually meaningfully exposed to literally like almost zero fee transactions or reasonable transactions?"

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, not to give the same answer that you've heard so many times, but I actually do think that we're getting really close. Like I would, I would say in the month, definitely in the month's range, like, and, and you know, I would say a proof point to that, just to say, to show you that we're not just kind of like speaking about these things without any real meat behind it, is that you can go and explore Matic today on OpenSea, right? You can go and browse them. And in fact, you can see them in your, what's, what's really cool about these, this layer twos, even these sidechain solutions on the rollups, right? Is that you use this exact same Ethereum account and the exact same private key to interact with Matic's and all of the tooling,

• 45:21Speaker 02

  all the meta masks. Yeah, I don't know. Do you have any Matic interviews?

• 45:25David Hoffman?

  Yeah. So Devin, I, I want to make sure I understand this. So right now I'm looking at a test wallet. It's like bank.eith, my test wallet, right? I've got some bankless badges in here. All of these are on mainnet. I don't have anything on Matic. I have some bankless badges on the X-Di sidechain.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  We don't do X-Di on all of them.

• 45:45David Hoffman?

  But let's see.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  If you go to, like, if you search in the search bar for Neon District.

• 45:50David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  Not, not in that search bar, the top one. So do this Neon District Season 1 items. Not that one. Sorry. That, that one's on mainnet. But Neon District, Season 1 item, then go down.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  And then click on one of those guys.

• 46:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Can I click on a demon or a doc? Yeah, I'll do a demon.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  And then scroll down to chain info.

• 46:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Chain info. Wow. This is cool. So this is Matic.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  Yep, yep. Yeah. And if you had one in your account, it would show up. It would show up alongside everything. I have some in my account.

• 46:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  So that feels like, so I have a follow up question. So first of all, let me just say, that feels very seamless as a user, right? Like we're seamlessly moving in the user experience from something on Ethereum mainnet to something on the Matic sidechain or layer two chain. And you could do this with with any, I guess, chain that sort of supports the the EVM. I ask you, I guess, a bigger picture question here, because a lot of folks are wondering how this is going to pan out, right? So I think, you know, if you've been listening to the bankless, you know that we're going to move towards a multi chain future, right? In fact, we would argue we've already been in a multi chain future, even like crypto exchanges. These are like sidechains for Bitcoin and Ethereum, right?

• 47:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  They're a bit more centralized, but they're almost like sidechains. But like, what is? What matters most for an NFT, right? So if I'm on XDI or a sidechain or a flow, I lose some of the decentralization properties and the settlement guarantees of something versus the Ethereum mainnet, right? You know, flow is somewhat more permissioned. For example, so are things like like XDI or even even Matic in a sidechain. How do you see this all, I guess, working out? And if I'm an NFT owner, it's very hard to tell

• 47:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  whether I have the same settlement guarantees on a Matic or a flow versus Ethereum and like, when should I care? Is it? Is it the case that high value items you think will be secured and settled on something like the Ethereum mainnet and lower value items, they're fine on on sidechains or more centralized layer one chains? What's your take on how this all evolves, I guess?

• 48:16Speaker 02

  I think that's right. I think there's a world where sort of lower value items can move around in these environments where the security guarantees are a little bit less stringent. What I would point out is that I think what user, especially in sort of the lower value category, I think what users are going to care about is less about kind of are there these extremely strong security guarantees around your NFT and more around how interoperable is it? So like, for example, can I go and move it to, can I go and sell it on OpenSea? Like, that's a big deal because that means that there's liquidity for it. Whereas, you know, since we don't quite support Matic yet, there's not really a good marketplace where you can, you can buy and sell these things.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  So the, the interoperability piece is, I think, the most important piece. And I think that's, you know, one of the things that Flow will have to really do a good job of is promoting an ecosystem around the blockchain that they've sort of created with this flagship application. Now can they kind of expand that to other partners like ourselves and to other applications and create the magic of NFTs, which is really being able to move them across things? Because again, we've always had, there've always been digital assets, right? And, and sometimes you can buy and sell those digital assets in some environment. But the new thing here is digital assets that can, that can move across any environment and that have these brand new properties.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  But I, I, I think, you know, in terms of that question around where should assets live depending on how valuable they are? I think you're, you're, I, I think that's about right. Like, I think maybe you, you can acquire a really valuable asset in the Matic network and then bridge it onto Ethereum and store it there. Like a CryptoPunk, I think, you know, you may not want to have living in, in a side chain for very long. That being said, you know, even when, even when you issue things on a, on a side chain, like if things go wrong, there are still ways of remint into Ethereum.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  And, you know, I, I think it's, we'll, we'll see, but I, I, I think it's, it's pretty hard to do like a full attack on NFTs where you actually, you know. Because these things are kind of illiquid, right? So, or a lot less liquid than a year or two. So even if you like obtained all the NFTs from some project, well, you can kind of just invalidate those and re-mint on a more secure chain.

• 50:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I think like the question in my mind too is like, when does an NFT stop being an NFT, right? You mentioned kind of this interoperability and composability, right? But like, let's say something like Fortnite skins had that and they just plugged into Ethereum or some other, you know, sidechains. Could, would they be then NFTs? Or is there an element that an NFT has to have some level of, of permissionless settlement guarantees? And like decentralization in order to be an NFT? And maybe that's really hard to answer. Maybe the market figures this out over time, but that's a question in my mind, right? Is, you know, is Fortnite creating NFTs? We would probably say no, yet we would call something on Flow NFTs.

• 51:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  We definitely call someone, something on Ethereum an NFT. Where's the line here? I don't know if that's a, a question anyone can answer at this point, but it's something in my mind.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  That's a great point. Yeah, I think, because you could say, you know, Fortnite has its own protocol. It just is, you know, backed by a database and it's fully controlled by one company and they're issuing digital assets on it. So, you know, why isn't that an NFT? And I think, I mean, I think the properties that I look for when thinking about an NFT is like, is it, is it controlled by a single party? Or is the ownership layer sufficiently decentralized? And in the case of Flow, like they're moving towards that. In the case of Matic, you know, they have a, a, a large validator set.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  And so, and then in the case of Ethereum, you know, it's, it's been decentralized for quite some time now, right? Or since the inception. So I think there's a spectrum, but you know, I, I think your intuition is correct. That the market will probably determine, you know, whether they call something an NFT or not.

• 52:34David Hoffman?

  Devin, I want to pivot to a new question out of the YouTube once again from Chulio. When will it be possible to mint an NFT and put a feature into it that you can lend to someone else? Say you want to lend it out for 60 days and it will automatically get returned back to you when the time is up. And I think what, to add on my own question onto this is what Chulio is really asking is like, again, NFTs are software and the answer to the question is, well, you can put anything into software, right? You can code up an NFT and make it do anything. But for people like me or Ryan who aren't technical or on coders, we're going to need to depend on infrastructure like OpenSea to allow some of this expressivity and financial and money logic to get integrated.

• 53:18David Hoffman?

  So do you guys have any features down the pipeline about how to make NFTs a little bit more programmable in the same way that ETH is programmable money?

• 53:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have, we have a good number of features around, kind of some basic features around adding extra bells and whistles to your NFT when you create it. So for example, oh, we allow very rich metadata, so you can do images, audio, movies, et cetera. But then we also have what's called unlockable content. So you can create an NFT with something that can only be unlocked by the user who purchases it, right? So that's kind of an interesting thing people have been experimenting with. And do you think, yeah, in the future, like we want to add things like, you know, at the sort of smart contract layer, being able to customize an NFT, right? So that idea of, you know, maybe there's some lending mechanic built into it.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  But I also think that, you know, at the end of the day, since this is so permissionless, you know, other projects can kind of come along and build all of those different

• 54:22Speaker 02

  addendums to the sort of raw NFT and still be completely interoperable with OpenSea. So I don't think it's just going to be like, you know, on us to add all, to experiment here. I think it'll be a community and market effort. But certainly we'll be doing a lot of work to like improve the sorts of things that you can build through our no-code creator.

• 54:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  So Devin, as we're moving towards the close of this AMA, we've got just a couple more questions. But one I definitely need to ask you is, what's in store for the future at OpenSea? So there's rumors of a raise going on. We see other NFT solutions that are kind of tokenizing.

• 55:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is there anything you can tell us about your future plans in those areas or anything else you want to highlight?

• 55:10Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah. Well, I can't mention those specific areas, but in terms of our roadmap, I guess, you know, as I said before, like the the main focus for us as a company is building a really great product and really great user experience that people want to come back to and that people find very valuable. And to that end, you know, we think one of the biggest challenges is the situation on Ethereum right now. So we're actively working on, a large portion of our team at the moment is working on our multi-chain strategy. So that's coming up.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  In terms of other features that we're excited about, you know, adding more sort of curation on top of OpenSea. So you know, really being able to customize your profile and show off your NFT in an interesting way. Better discovery on the platform, so being able to kind of quickly come on and find stuff that's interesting early on. So sort of some of those core marketplace features that we think are really important.

• 56:17Speaker 02

  And then just continuing to work with more artists, creators, influencers, musicians as they come and learn about the space. So we got quite a lot of sort of inbound interest in learning about what is this new space? And how did you create something that resonates with people? And so we're doing a lot of-

• 56:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, Devin, this is this is something that Blau said on our conversation with him earlier this week. He was like, we asked the question, are artists coming to this? And he said, everyone, everyone is coming to this. And then he named off like Halsey and Calvin Harris, all these big names, right? Is that what you're seeing? Is that what you're talking? I mean, you got Gronk, that's huge. Is this all coming from inbound interest? And do you have any kind of big names that you expect to be issuing on OpenSea in the future?

• 57:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100% inbound at the moment. It's just, you know, people kind of learning about it and getting excited and either having a concrete idea or wanting to figure out a concrete idea. Probably can't disclose any of the ones that are coming up just so that they, you know, remain a surprise, but we have a ton of, ton of people who are, who are going to be launching NFTs pretty soon. And I think it should be, should be really exciting. Yeah.

• 57:32David Hoffman?

  Devin, I got one question that I gotta ask. Is there room for an OpenSea token in the future?

• 57:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, undetermined. We're definitely not opposed to

• 57:46Speaker 02

  adding a tokenization component. We just want to, we've always wanted to be very thoughtful about it and figure out kind of what is the strategy that would resonate with, with most people and not feel kind of gimmicky and, and feel like there's like a real future behind it. It's just something that's more of like powered by speculation.

• 58:08David Hoffman?

  Very cool. Devin, thank you for so much for coming and giving on your time. I want to finish off with this last question. I think we'll tie things off very well. Say you're in the elevator with, you know, Mark Cuban or some, somebody of his nature and you have just a few brief minutes to explain to him the maximally successful version of OpenSea in one, five, 10 years. What is that pitch?

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Well, I would say, I think if you think about sort of the internet and the four billion or so people that are on it and all the content that's being produced on the internet. And then if you layer on property rights on that, the, as I said, the design space for all of the different things that could be tokenized is so wide. And at the end of the day, I actually do think we're talking about the biggest economy on the planet is going to be fueled by NFTs. And so then, of course, for, for that economy to be successful, you need a powerful marketplace where people can go and, and trade these things around and know that they're getting the right thing.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  And that, that marketplace, you know, there's probably, there's going to be a bunch of them, but there are going to be some ones that provide what consumers really want and, and end up being kinds of the winners. And I think OpenSea is perfectly positioned to, to be that. So.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  You know, I think the future is where just this this asset class expands and OpenSea is is that sort of premier marketplace for a brand new asset class. It's really, you know, it's growing quickly, but it's still in, in my opinion, it's very early stages.

• 59:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  An aggregator to the biggest economy in the world. That is the pitch from Devon at OpenSea. Where do I sign my check? Where do I write my check, Devon? It sounds pretty cool. Thank you so much for your time today. We appreciate you hanging with the Bankless Nation and we're super excited about NFTs. So, you know, keep it, keep, keep us, keep us tuned into what's going on, what you guys are up to.

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  Thanks so much for having me.

• 1:00:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Awesome. All right, guys, risks and disclaimers. We always talk about this, but we are, of course, headed west. NFT speculation is risky. So is ETH, so is DeFi. You could lose what you put in, but this is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but thanks so much for joining us on another AMA with Bankless.

• 1:00:36David Hoffman?

  And everyone, thank you for being on the YouTube. Thank you for your questions. Make sure to like and subscribe so we can get Devon and OpenSea to the front page of YouTube so we can get this revolution in digital culture and digital expression kicked off. Awesome. Thanks everyone for being here.

• 1:00:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Thanks, guys.

• 1:00:54David Hoffman?

  Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence. We recommend joining our daily newsletter, podcast, and community as a Bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your Bankless experience. You'll get access to our market analysis, our alpha leaks, and exclusive content, and even the Bankless token for airdrops, raffles, and unlocks. If you're interested in crypto, the Bankless community is where you want to be. Click the link in the description to become a Bankless premium subscriber today. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the channel for in-depth interviews with industry leaders, Ask Me Anythings, and weekly rollups where

• 1:01:37David Hoffman?

  we summarize the week in crypto and other fantastic content. Thanks, everyone, for watching and being on the journey as we build out the