The Floundering Cavs, OKC-Boston Gut Checks, and Lottery Karma Power Rankings With Ryen Russillo

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to react to Game 4 between the Cavaliers and Pacers (2:15). Then, they talk Thunder-Nuggets Game 4 before breaking down the rest of the playoff games over the weekend (37:13). Finally, they go through the NBA Lottery Karma Rankings (01:47:06). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is brought to you by Degree Deodorant. Grab the original Cool Rush at Walmart or Target today. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons Podcast, presented by FanDuel, our friends, America's number one sportsbook, and they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after tipoff. Just look for the Live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip, then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMER or visit rg-help.com.

• 0:44Bill Simmons?

  Coming up, an action-packed weekend of NBA playoff basketball. Russel and I broke all of it down and lottery karma rankings next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September 27th and from November 2nd to November 16th.

• 1:29Bill Simmons?

  Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I have a new rewatch of those coming for you Tuesday, not Monday, Tuesday. We did Death Wish with Charles Bronson because it is a big ass 70s month. So the reason it's Tuesday instead of Monday is because I'm gonna do a podcast on Monday. We're going to do a podcast after Celtics Knicks and after the lottery and just doing it. And I think the schedule might be Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, and either Thursday or Friday this week. So I think I'm doing four on this feed this week. So rewatchables will be Tuesday.

• 2:14Bill Simmons?

  That's Death Wish. You can watch it on Ringer Moves as well. You can watch all the YouTube clips, videos, live stuff from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. Russillo and I, we, we recorded a bunch of this earlier today, right after the Denver OKC game. And then the top part of the podcast is right after Cleveland, Indiana, which was an absolute debacle for one of those two teams. We're going to talk about it next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 3:05Bill Simmons?

  All right, taping this top part of the podcast here. It is 7:30 Pacific time. We're doing that during the Cavs Pacers game because that game ended about an hour ago, even though they're still playing it right now. And James Johnson just came in. The Pacers, 25 assists in the first half, which is a number I did not know was attainable. And they absolutely ran Cleveland off the floor. And just when you thought it couldn't get worse, the third quarter started and Donovan Mitchell was nowhere to be seen because he apparently hurt his ankle. And the Cavs are now down three to one, heading back to Cleveland for game five. And the Pacers have completely thoroughly, totally, and unequivocally outplayed them and have momentum. And this is now looking really dangerous,

• 3:44Bill Simmons?

  not just for this season, Russillo, for the Cavaliers, but big picture, if you get wiped out like this by the Pacers, I'm not sure what you do heading into the summer. And I'm not even sure what the fixes are. And maybe you look at it and you take a breath.

• 4:05Bill Simmons?

  And you go, all right, just wasn't our round, I guess. Let's run it back. We won 64 games. I find it hard to believe that's how it would play out because this is really bad how this is played out.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, the assist number at one point, it was 20 to two in team assists. And, you know, they're just flying around. I mean, this game is like overwhelming. I'm still a little in shock. Now, look, two things here. If Cleveland goes 82 and 0 and they lose this series, do they go 82 and 0 next year? No one's going to care because people are going to say there's this fundamental flaw with this team. If you're Cleveland, you're going to probably run it back and you'll start to make excuses, which I think are worth bringing up. You have game two, we're missing Garland, we're missing Mobley, we're missing Hunter, and you still, if you inbound the basketball, you could win that game. Mitchell leaves, they weren't coming back in this game, even with Mitchell being out.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  And you're like, hey, Garland was never really right. Now, I know, like, I'm not sitting here suggesting that's the only reason you're here, but that's probably what they would do, wouldn't they?

• 5:13Bill Simmons?

  I think you're right. But I'm also stunned that it was this much of an ass kicking today because usually game four is the, like what we watched, which we're going to talk about later in the podcast, that OKC Denver game, where both teams kind of realize the stakes in the moment and what needs to happen. There's a level of intensity and there's a caring that usually exists in a game like this. And from Cleveland, from the get go, you didn't see it. They weren't rotating on defense. They were just getting sliced and diced on that 3-2 zone. I think the thing that really stands out to me beyond just the talent and whether this might not be a great matchup for Cleveland. Indy's feisty.

• 5:55Bill Simmons?

  They play with a real chip on their shoulder. They've done that all year. They love playing really good teams or teams with great players like they with the Lakers, the Celtics, like whoever it is. They really come out with their chest puffed out. They try to start shit. They're agitators. They have a real personality to them. And they kind of know who they are. They have a real identity. And for whatever reason, Cleveland feels like it's losing its identity as these playoffs go along. It's like, what is this team? Allen had a 19 and 12 in game three and in game four, he got buried in the first half as that went sideways.

• 6:31Bill Simmons?

  But they, they have the, uh, the Garland piece, which I know he's been hurt. He, you know, I know his stats are okay today, but he looks okay, not great, but you would think like they're equipped to, to fill in if he's hurt or playing 80% because of how deep their bench is. And then the bench didn't show up and then Mitchell basically was superhuman in game two and three, right? He did so much like his body ended up breaking down from it. It just feels like if these teams played 20 times, I'm not sure how it would go for, for Cleveland. So I can't decide is this a bad matchup? Could this have happened if they played Milwaukee? Like what? Big picture, what does this mean? Was this like a, like a mid 2010s Atlanta Hawks type team?

• 7:15Bill Simmons?

  Is there a road back for them? I'm just, I'm swimming with questions and I have no answers.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a tweet. I think it's right. I don't know. Then double check it. But if you look at where Cleveland was this season, right? So 14 teams in NBA history that won at least 64 games and posted a Barja victory of nine or points, nine points or better. 13 reached the NBA finals.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  The only team that didn't was the 15, 16 San Antonio Spurs, right? Zaza, Kawhi. So.

• 7:49Bill Simmons?

  Was that that year or the, wasn't that the year after 17? That was Durant's first Warriors year, right? That 16 team, that was that weird NBA season where there weren't a lot of good teams that year. Remember? And they did, they did well, but it was, you know, we, we weren't ever really, it was always the Warriors year. It always seems like it was gonna be the Warriors and the Cavs.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  It was 17. So.

• 8:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Look, I mean, this is, this is pretty ridiculous that you would be this good. And then all of a sudden, like, is it, is it just a bad matchup part of it? You know, the crazy thing about Cleveland, like going into the year was how are you going to figure out a way to win in the playoffs? With the Allen Mobley piece of it. Well, Mobley got better. Atkinson staggered them. You know, I always think about that Cleveland comeback against Boston and Boston where they closed with Hunter and Mobley and took Allen off the floor because they didn't like the way Tatum was getting out of it and switches. So I was like, oh, because this is something that we'll see in the play. Like all of these basketball things that you would think that are part of the conversation. You know, it doesn't really apply to now. You're sitting there looking at, hey, are they ignoring, ignoring any of these guys in this spacing? It's like, no, Indiana is actually getting anything they want.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  I think the most impressive thing from this game, which is also part of what I think is absolutely correct, is the Pacers have this real edge to them, is whatever they did from game three to game four in preparation of this 3-2 zone that Cleveland runs, they figured it out. And the coaching staff prepped these guys great. The execution of it was terrific. And you could see that Cleveland was scrambling because, you know, really the zone stuff that we're seeing constantly throughout these playoff games, everybody knows this. You just got to figure out a way to get it to collapse. You got to get a way to attack the middle. And then you can attack off of that because you're trying to keep the ball out of the middle.

• 9:28Bill Simmons?

  They ran a roller go down the middle and then either he goes to the rim or he kicks it back out. And they were doing it perfectly today.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, they had a pick and roll with Toppin at the free throw line. He rolls and then guess who he's finishing against? Because Mobley was at the top. Like when this thing was working in game three, you're going, my God, Mobley is chasing everybody around and contesting and trapping and screwing up the first thing that you want to do. You have the luxury of having Evan Mobley at the top of a 2-3 zone, or excuse me, a 3-2 zone, because Allen can play underneath them. Well, in these minutes where Toppin was destroying them in the first half, Allen was out. So then they switched it to Mobley underneath. Then the Pacers got another good look and then they brought him back. And then they went to man and then Turner hit a three. And then there was another play where they were like, okay, I think we have this. Again, they're down so big, you can't say, hey, now we're settled on defense. We know what we're going to do. And then Neesmith hits an end of a shot clock.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  So like everything that possibly could have worked out, I think, started with them having a much better plan and being way more comfortable with a 3-2 that even T.J. McConnell admitted. And that screwed us up a little bit there in game three. So Cleveland thinks they have this answer. They have this defensive thing that they can do, especially when it's those two guys. And yet they got destroyed in a bunch of different versions of it tonight.

• 10:40Bill Simmons?

  Right. And the Pacers. I say this as the highest compliment I can give because I really love this team, but they were, they look a little 2014 Spurs-ish at times with the way they play with each other and the ball moves around with the added bonus that I think they're a really good transition team and how burden, you know, especially in a game like today when there was one pass he threw, he's at midcourt and he just threw this lob pass in the corner, almost like watching a quarterback, throw a lead pass to receiver down the sidelines. He's casually threw it and he had a guy running down and caught it like in stride, stopped and had a look. And I was like, this team sees angles that I don't normally see when I'm watching basketball. They really have fun playing with

• 11:25Bill Simmons?

  each other. They have all these guards. They pressure full court. I think they're a huge pain in the ass to play. I think you want to punch them in the face after like game two, which we saw today. Mather and, you know, goats hunter into a thing and then thinks he's the smart guy and then they review it and they're like, no, actually you're getting tossed. But they just want to get under your skin and I think they're annoying to play. I, it's no surprise to Celtics fans because this is a team that has come, every time they played the Celtics, they brought it. They start shit. They're really hard to play. They have a deep bench. They're really good at home. They get a good crowd and I think they're for real. I thought they were for real all year. With that said, I'm shocked that Cleveland could look this bad

• 12:11Bill Simmons?

  in an important game. And I don't know whether Mitchell, it took so much for him those first couple of days with, you know, such a burden. I'm not sure. I just think basketball is really hard now in 2025. You know, it's, it's, when you have those games like that game that he had when he was literally dead at the end of the game and you're doing everything, all the running and all the contact and the amount of times he was bouncing against people and finishing and.

• 12:39Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I hate to shit on the old generations because you know, I love all that basketball, but I just think it's harder. I think these games are harder. I think they're more physical. They're more taxing and it's a lot to ask from these dudes to put an offense on your back like that, you know?

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that might be, I mean, I'm open for anything, but to come out that flat and to let it get away from you that much. And you know, you still felt like the frontline depth, Cleveland versus Indiana, like at what point would you have gone? You know, I think Miles Turner is going to be able to hold up here. I mean, every backup center minute for the Pacers this year, because they lost so many guys to injuries, you're thinking like, how are they going to ride this out with Turner? Because it still felt like Turner was somebody that you could attack. Granted, the shooting that he gives you and the spacing opens up a lot of the stuff that you're talking about and how they're able to attack, but it's just crazy to see 48 hours later, this look like a completely different series, especially when, you know, the Cavs should be able to win a game on the road, which we saw. They've got to be kicking their ass still from game two for allowing that to happen. So there's

• 13:40Speaker 01

  part of me that still thinks like, man, if they just inbounded, okay, then today happens and then it's 2-2. So, so where are we going with all this stuff? But I mean, Cleveland, if they don't win this series, which it doesn't look like it's going to happen down 3-1 now, they are going to be like completely written off. And if they run the same group back, which is usually the default of what a GM would do, be like, hey, we're really good. This is what we did in the regular season. We had our hiccups that we mentioned at the top, which I'm say, I'm sure they would say internally with each other. But this was just alarming to start a game that matters this mo, it matters this much. And just at note like, hey, it's 20. Okay. Well, now it's 30 and then it's 40. It just was an ass kicking. And I'm, I'm still kind of shocked.

• 14:22Bill Simmons?

  Me too. Well, then if you're the Celtics, you win this game and Saturday, you have this Knicks game on Monday. That's I think one of the biggest Knicks games of this century. But now you're looking at, hey, if we can just, we've outplayed the Knicks for 93% of this series. Let's take care of business, win three more. We're gonna have home court for round three potentially with Indiana, right? So it goes from, let's say, let's even say it goes to seven and they're able to hold on and beat the Knicks in seven. And game one of the next series is in Boston on a Wednesday, you know, and you get the game seven potentially at home, too. It's an amazing turn of events when you consider a team won 64 games in the conference.

• 15:07Bill Simmons?

  And, you know, I, I really believed in Cleveland. I thought this was gonna be a really hard series because I'm also, as we've talked about many times, I just really thought Indiana was good, but I really was sold on Cleveland as a team. I thought they had a bench. I believed in Mitchell as a, as a guy who could be the number one guy in a potential finals team. Thought they were there defensively, but the signs that were there, if you're really looking back, we talked about it some with the net rating for the last 25 games, last 30 games, and they just were better the first 30, 35 games than they were the rest of the year. And the defensive stuff was the stuff that I think there were some subtle red flags. They just weren't a top five or six defense

• 15:48Bill Simmons?

  anymore, really from the All-Star break on. And the question was why? What was happening? And then you see like today, you know, they're, he's, when did he put a core? Yeah, Cora was in there a bunch, but he's, I almost felt like Atkinson was grasping for straws a little bit in this game. Like, he's just trying lineups and players. I'm saying the first half, like, ah, I hope Okoro has something. It's like, wow, you guys are at that stage? You're at the, I hope Okoro can give us an offensive boost stage of the season?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  When Okoro got in there, it felt like it was, it was kinda already over, but

• 16:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they were down 30.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Ty Jerome comes in and you're hoping like he can kinda He's been, he's been awesome. And even in the game where he had a lot of, lot of points, I mean, he took 20 shots. You're like, man, a playoff game with Ty Jerome taking 20 shots. Like, we like him, but I don't know if I like him that much. And you would have thought like, can he at least, you know, not to be TJ McConnell, but can he be somebody who gets you into some really good stuff as you're trying to figure out the Garland situation with him being out? And then that turns into a disaster. Hunter today, five points, five fouls. So that acquisition hasn't paid the dividends that you'd expect it to have. The rebounding numbers, like granted, Indiana didn't miss, so there weren't a ton of potential

• 17:06Speaker 01

  rebounds, but 47 combined minutes, when I wrote it down, when it was 98, 64, those guys combined had seven rebounds. Again, it's also speaks to how well the Pacers are shooting the ball. But I'm going to ask you this because as much as we're talking about the Pacers, like, hey, they're a feisty team, they're going to be a tough out. Defensively, you're right. Like you start looking at the defensive rating as teams are closing the season after the All-Star break, the Pacers were eighth. You know, it's a team that went 20 and nine. Some of the Cleveland slip off, I think at the time we were like, all right, is that real? Or is this a team that's just been cruising to the one seed the entire time in the East?

• 17:41Bill Simmons?

  Locked.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, I mean, there's, there's ways you can look at that saying, hey, the Pacers number feels more real because they're closing and they're kind of fighting for everything and the, and the Cavs on the other side of it, like whatever. But let's just say the Pacers get through the East. Okay. I mean, have you ever thought of Halliburton as a top 10 player in the NBA?

• 18:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if I still would, even if they got to the finals.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  So it's kind of, hey, whenever I looked at the Pacers, I'm like, man, there's a lot of stuff to like. I don't know if they're really going to go with this rotation. Are they really going to play this many guys? And the answer is yes. The defensive part of it has been real in the way that they've closed because last year I just thought they were complete, like, all right, whatever, like, cool that you're in the Eastern Conference Finals, but I mean, I don't really take you seriously defensively.

• 18:27Bill Simmons?

  They got some luck.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  This would be unlike the blueprint that we have all the things that you think are real in the NBA.

• 18:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  You go, all right, well, who's your best guy? And like, who's your second best guy? The Pacers, even the biggest Halliburton fan, like, don't check that box. And I think that's the thing I'll circle back to.

• 18:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but that's why the 2014 Spurs, that's what made me think of, that's what this feels like a little bit, if that's how it played out. Because remember Duncan's at slightly different stage of his, he's at the tail, tail end of a really great career as like a guy who could be a 35 minute a game guy for somebody. Kawhi wasn't Kawhi yet. Then Parker was probably the most talented guy in the team in terms of where he was in his career. Diao's there, Janobie's older, you know, but the team made sense when you saw everybody together. And I think Indiana has a little of that. The team kind of makes sense when you watch them. And I do think they have, even though they're not a traditional awesome defense, they do like, Niesmith's a really good defender.

• 19:36Bill Simmons?

  Like, if, if you're just throwing him on whoever the best perimeter guy is on another team, you can feel pretty good about that, you know? They hit threes and they're deep. And they really like to play with each other and they really, I feel like have an identity, which is all I'm looking for when we get to mid bay. Do you have an identity? And that's what's weird about Cleveland is, what's your identity now? Cause you're not great on defense. You're very Mitchell heavy.

• 20:06Bill Simmons?

  I'm not positive who your best five guys are.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we know who their best four guys are. That was the whole point of this team is we know who their four were.

• 20:15Bill Simmons?

  Who's the fifth guy though? It's a kind of a big thing because you have two bigs and two smalls and then it's like, ah, D'Andre Hunter?

• 20:22Speaker 01

  I don't know that I'm ready to audit the Cavs and that those four guys just aren't that good now. I mean, who cares who their fifth is when those are your four?

• 20:29Bill Simmons?

  Was it saying they weren't good?

• 20:33Speaker 01

  I just don't care who their, I just don't care who their fifth guy is when it's, when it's that good of a four, or at least it's supposed to be that good of a four. I think you're right about the Mitchell part of it where.

• 20:44Bill Simmons?

  Do you love the Allen part?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  I mean, he sucks now. How long is the list?

• 20:53Bill Simmons?

  Do you love him though?

• 20:55Speaker 01

  I think every team would like Jared Allen.

• 20:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 20:59Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I watched them toe to toe against Indiana and I just, it's not like I'm like, whoa, there's so much talent. It's not like the Celtics Knicks series where you're like, what's going on? The Celtics have a better team than the Knicks. How is this happening? I don't know if I feel that way when I'm watching Cavs Pacers.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  I don't know how you could feel any other way after what we just sat over two hours. So, you know, I didn't expect you to start sitting here and be like, you know, who's awesome is Jared Allen. I, I just think that there was like 82 regular season games where this team was historically really good. Now, and maybe that's another part of this conversation. Home, road.

• 21:30Bill Simmons?

  Do we care?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter anymore. 20 point.

• 21:32Bill Simmons?

  Do we care about regular season at all?

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Don't matter anymore. Um, your net rating doesn't matter anymore. Like all of these things now, like, are we just going to decide? That the things we've always believed in, none of it matters. Cause I mean, Cleveland is checking a lot of boxes being down 3-1 here.

• 21:53Bill Simmons?

  It's the part that doesn't make sense to me. It was why I liked them as a possible finals team because I felt like they had all the things I was looking for, except for, I wasn't positive who the fifth guy is, but I like Struce. It's like, all right, if he's your fifth guy.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  But at least you had a.

• 22:07Bill Simmons?

  You're gonna have to make some big shots in the corner. I feel like he could maybe do that.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. There was three guys though, you could throw into that conversation of like, who would be, now granted, you probably wouldn't play Jerome with Garland and Mitchell, but, um, you know, Merrill's played a lot. Hunter is supposed to be better than this. You know, even Dean Wade, who gets attacked defensively all the time. Cause it's like, oh, I got him. And then he holds up really well. There's, there's a lot of little pieces there that even if you're saying like, hey, I don't know who the fifth guy is.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  A lot of teams would take all of those options, but this is.

• 22:40Bill Simmons?

  Look, with the Celtics.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Go ahead.

• 22:42Bill Simmons?

  It's Pritchard and then who are my other four?

• 22:49Speaker 01

  What are you talking about?

• 22:50Bill Simmons?

  I was just trying to figure out my five. I start with Pritchard.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Oh, I see.

• 22:55Bill Simmons?

  Probably Tatum second.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Are you sure?

• 23:00Bill Simmons?

  Pritchard. Are you ready for Pritchard versus TJ McConnell in the ESPN commercial?

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Is 30 shots too many shots for Pritchard in a playoff game?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Look, man, I

• 23:11Bill Simmons?

  That's like one, two every three minutes?

• 23:13Speaker 01

  I just can't believe they would come out that bad. Like normally, even if you're gonna lose this game, like get it to 12. Get it to 12 a little later. You know, that's usually how these games work.

• 23:27Bill Simmons?

  Right. Well. All right. So like you mentioned, I think later in the pod, you mentioned the 64 win Suns team that just got waxed. We had those Hawks teams in the mid 2010s. Like we've seen successful teams crater at the wrong time in the playoffs. And every time it's confusing, the bigger question to me is after it happens, is there a road back? Because the only time I could think of a road back where the road actually came back was that Spurs, the Ray Allen shot, and then they came back and they even think like, oh, man, that's it. They're never coming back from that. And then they came back the next year.

• 24:07Bill Simmons?

  The Celtics in 23 Miami, losing the first three where it's like, that's it. Blow this thing up. This is a wrap. Then they came back and they won the next three. It's like, all right, what is up? Tatum got hurt in game seven. Maybe we just need to trade Marcus Smart and Grant Williams and, you know, fix around the edges. But normally when it goes bad like this and you really take a shit in a series, it usually doesn't come back. Like that's usually, we look back and be like, ah, when they start making like a big trade two years later, we're like, ah, we should have known because that series in 25 when that Pacers game, like we should have known. That was when we knew that that nucleus wasn't going to work.

• 24:53Bill Simmons?

  Do you see how it goes?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  A couple of things. One, that Hawks team that won 60 games in 14 and 15.

• 25:03Bill Simmons?

  Artificially inflated 60.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  I just don't think they were that good.

• 25:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, well, they were compared to when you look at the net rating, points per possession, all that shit. They were not at the level of what this Cavs team was, but you know, didn't they win like 64 games? One of those years though, or 62?

• 25:21Speaker 01

  I think it's just 60 that one year where they made it to the Eastern Conference Finals and they got swept.

• 25:27Bill Simmons?

  Dude, a seven part documentary about them. I gotta figure it out.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  No, that's gonna be exciting. Let me know when you want to do the Kevin Willis.

• 25:35Bill Simmons?

  We gotta lock, we gotta lock down Joe Johnson. Still trying to get an interview with him.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  So, you know, when that Hawks team comes up short, you're also going up against LeBron.

• 25:44Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  So.

• 25:47Bill Simmons?

  Did you ever go on the radio and say, I think they could upset LeBron? Or were you always like, I've never taken this seriously ever at any point?

• 25:55Speaker 01

  No, I remember that team annoyed me because they wanted like five guys in the All-Star team. Cause they were in first place. You're like, yeah, that's probably not a great way of doing the All-Star roster. Five, maybe an exaggeration. Maybe it was four, but then if you look at the Celtics part of it.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  I mean, that's why we're sitting here like this is going to be ugly for Cleveland. Like I said, like it's going to be really ugly going, okay, this, it goes from, okay, there's new coach. He figured some things out. They're even better now. Coach of the year type of stuff. And then no one's going to care. No one's going to care about any of it. Cause now they're going to say that this group just is incredibly flawed.

• 26:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then you have the squandered opportunity of whether the Celtics come out of this round two series or not. Either way, it's going to be a six or seven gamer with some attrition. And then Cleveland would have the home court in that one. And Boston's a team they've always played well against and Mitchell's always done well against the Celtics.

• 26:54Bill Simmons?

  Now you're like, well, we blew, like, what if the Knicks ended up beating the Celtics? I'm like, we could fucking play the Knicks in round three?

• 27:02Speaker 01

  But you know, the thing is, is after this series and the way this has looked, they shouldn't be saying that about anybody.

• 27:07Bill Simmons?

  True. How healthy do you think Garland is? Give me a percent.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Healthy enough to be out there. I mean, he's made some plays, falling down twice, not being touched, probably isn't a great time. He fell down and got a foul call in today's game where I'm like, he just fell down. And then he had a play in game three where he like, lost the ball. He just tried to cut forward and then, then fell down again. So, you know, I don't know if that's in the, the flow of the game or whatever, but I, I thought at least game three, it's like, okay, you know, he's out there. I, you know, I don't think, maybe he's marginalized a little bit, but I, I don't, you know, what, I don't see multiple moments where I'm like, oh my God, this guy shot. I can't believe he's out on the floor. You?

• 27:51Bill Simmons?

  Didn't look this, didn't, was, I wouldn't say he was skipping around 100%, but he wasn't bad. He wasn't compromised, certainly was, it didn't really affect either way. I thought it was more the Pacers were just extraordinary and also really seemed to think they can beat Cleveland. That's a, that's a, that was another lesson in this game. Like they were like, we're fucking beating these guys today. This is happening. We're beating these guys. And, uh, I don't know.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  This might be, you know, the times we've argued about it in the past, but even with, um, the health luck that they had against the opponents during the playoffs last year, just getting to the Eastern Conference Finals and, you know, probably feeling like you were a lot closer with Boston and the series played out. I mean, getting swept kind of separates the men from the boys in those closing moments. You're like, okay, you're not actually at this level despite running around for two hours. But maybe that's all they needed and the strong close and the guy like Halliburton who does not care, which is why I think so many players despise him. But you need somebody like that. You need somebody who thinks, especially when you have that many times with the ball and, and everything that you're controlling there. You have to think you're better than everybody else and he carries himself that way.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  And look, I mean, depending on where he is, I think I voted him all NBA. I know it kind of came down to like the last few names. There was like three for one spot or maybe four names for two spots. And I know some people probably split, so I don't know if he's going to make third team all NBA, but I voted for him. I'm pretty sure I did, I kind of forget some of this stuff.

• 29:21Bill Simmons?

  You did, I didn't.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Okay. I didn't mean to do it to you that way. That's not why I brought it up.

• 29:27Bill Simmons?

  I stand by that. It was a regular season vote. I voted for Big Jim Harden over him.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a regular season vote.

• 29:34Bill Simmons?

  Do I feel great about it? Not especially. No, I don't feel awesome. Not gonna high five myself in there afterwards.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Should they give us, should the NBA like hit us up a week or two into the playoffs and be like, anything you want to tweak?

• 29:48Bill Simmons?

  They should give you one more again.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  I swear to God, every time like somebody, it becomes public and then it's like, oh, this guy did this. And sometimes I think it's because the person just does it. And then there's just that moment where like, well, somebody left Franz off of all NBA first and second. And then I'm like immediately going back to check my ballot.

• 30:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Cause you're just horrified that you're gonna make some mistake. But I don't think the NBA can go over our ballots and go, are you sure about that dude? Although I'd love it.

• 30:14Bill Simmons?

  What's the weirdest possible finals we can have that actually might happen now? Is it Indiana and Minnesota?

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Golden State.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  And Minnesota, or excuse me. Well, what's the weirdest possible? Well, I, you know.

• 30:27Bill Simmons?

  Weirdest possible that could actually happen, like.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  That could actually happen. Yeah.

• 30:30Bill Simmons?

  Indiana, Minnesota is a finals that could actually happen.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Wouldn't Denver Pacers be weirder?

• 30:38Bill Simmons?

  I mean, the ABA part would be weirder, but Jokic being in the finals. I'm just trying to picture like a finals that people in our life who don't really follow basketball, like my mom. Like who's in the finals this year? And I'm like, it's Indiana against Minnesota. And she's like, what? Or my wife. That's one of those. Yeah. Minnesota has this guy, Anthony Edwards. He was in an Adam Sandler movie. And Indiana just has a bunch of guys you've never heard of, but they're really fun to play. Or fun to watch. And that's going to be our finals.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  I would, um.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  I would be defending, we would be defending ourselves against, um. The ratings argument that would come out then. That probably wouldn't be a great time for some of the current back and forth.

• 31:21Bill Simmons?

  Pacers, T Wolves.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Okay, they shouldn't have, shouldn't have.

• 31:26Bill Simmons?

  Shout your butt.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Shout your butt a little early. You see some of the players tweets, it's all connected. Um.

• 31:32Bill Simmons?

  By the way, you know what would be a really good finals? Indiana, Minnesota. I would really enjoy those games.

• 31:38Bill Simmons?

  Good battle.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  I guess I don't look at like Minnesota as surprising, but they're another team, you know, Western Conference Finals, same as the Pacers, Eastern Conference Finals. I felt like Minnesota had a much better chance in that series than the Pacers did last year. Maybe, I don't know, this sounds stupid, but were we just due? I mean, we're not even there yet. We're not even through the second round. So

• 32:00Bill Simmons?

  Like due for just like a completely wacko?

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Are we just due for one of these? Instead of every year going, okay, it's this team versus that team. All right. Well, they have the, one of the five best players in the world and they have two of the 10 best players in the world. And that's the way the sport works.

• 32:16Bill Simmons?

  I have the conference odds from right before round one. And Indiana, I thought was a great bet and I actually had that in my picks. Indiana was 28 to one to win the East, which I thought those are like just great odds. I don't, not saying it's going to happen. It's just 28 to one, playing Milwaukee in round one. It's just good odds. Minnesota was 20 to one to win the West. Right? And if you looked at that one, kind of the same thing where you go, all right, well, if they get through round one, they're playing the winner of Houston, Golden State in round two, they could potentially win that. And then who knows? They, they love playing OKC. But anyway, 28 to one versus 20 to one would be a very, very

• 33:00Bill Simmons?

  high parlay if you did that one on Fanduel. Denver was 15 to one.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  By the way.

• 33:05Bill Simmons?

  Did they really?

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So maybe some momentum.

• 33:09Bill Simmons?

  Cleveland was plus 185 to win the conference. And the Celtics were minus 145 and the Knicks were 12 to one.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Some tough first few minutes. All right.

• 33:21Bill Simmons?

  And I'm way more nervous about the Celtic game now since we did the pod since, which hasn't even been on this, the people listening, we haven't even gotten to that yet. It's about 40 minutes from now, but I started thinking about, um, this Indiana game made me now nervous that the, just, you always think you know what's going to happen again. It's like game four, I remember, oh, it's going to be slugfest. Everyone's going to show up. And then I watched this. I'm like, all right, now I'm nervous again. Don't know what to expect anymore.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  I, I, I mean, it's just, is it the most impressive win of any game in the playoffs so far?

• 33:56Bill Simmons?

  Right? Mainly because it feels like they kind of broke the caps. I think that was the more impressive part.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  It broke me a little bit.

• 34:02Bill Simmons?

  Whoa. It's like one of those football games where you think the Cowboys lose 47 to 17 in round one. You're like, oh my God, you didn't just lose. Like, I don't even know what you should do this summer now.

• 34:15Bill Simmons?

  All right. Before we go to break, did you see the movie Nanas on Netflix?

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Not yet. Vince Vaughn, Joe Manganiello. Yeah, excited.

• 34:24Bill Simmons?

  Susan Sarandon, age 78, looks great.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  You've always liked her.

• 34:29Bill Simmons?

  Looks great.

• 34:32Bill Simmons?

  Talia Shire, Lorraine Bracco.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 34:36Bill Simmons?

  Brenda Vaccaro.

• 34:39Bill Simmons?

  It's, I, I had no idea. My wife and daughter just wanted to watch it on Friday night. Had no idea. I was getting Dr. Melphy. I was getting Adrian Balboa. I was getting, I don't know, was she Thelma or Louise? Susan Sarandon.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  I haven't seen it yet.

• 34:54Bill Simmons?

  One of those. I'm just in Thelma and Louise. I can't remember which one she was. But yeah, interesting movie. Made me think the stunt casting. It's still works. I really liked it. Thumbs up. Nanas.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Thumbs up.

• 35:08Bill Simmons?

  Thumbs up.

• 35:11Bill Simmons?

  Two thumbs up.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  All right. I'll have to check it out. Yeah, I just saw it. Um, it just came out, right?

• 35:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Staten Island Italian restaurant movie. I decided I like all food movies too. Trying to think of one that, I even like burnt with Bradley Cooper.

• 35:31Bill Simmons?

  I love chef with Jon Favreau.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  The movie?

• 35:33Bill Simmons?

  Big night. Hot dog movie was not a food movie. It was a ski movie.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 35:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I like food movies.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Chef, you said? You like chef a lot?

• 35:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I like chef.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Do you like the bear a lot? You like the bear a lot, right?

• 35:48Bill Simmons?

  Enjoy the bear. Bear's coming back mid, uh, mid-June.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Big staff.

• 35:53Bill Simmons?

  Dumping them all at once.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Lot of overhead.

• 35:56Bill Simmons?

  Film two seasons at once, apparently.

• 36:00Bill Simmons?

  Uh, we're gonna take a break. Did you get any feedback for your Star Wars cameo in the Star Wars Rewatchables?

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. I got a little, I got a little feedback on that and, um...

• 36:11Bill Simmons?

  I had somebody say to me, "You definitely rigged that with Brusilo."

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Everybody thinks that, yeah.

• 36:15Bill Simmons?

  He was too ready for it. I was like, "I promise you, there was no rigging. We have no idea if he's ever gonna pick up the phone and I never tell him I'm calling or what the movie is."

• 36:24Speaker 01

  You've never told me? I even missed the Blues Brothers one and I was upset because I was like, "I used to love that movie when I was a kid."

• 36:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Um, the corn on the cob line to this day. You know, my dad and I'll throw that one at each other every now and then. And I called back and you were like, "You missed your window." So, it's a very rigid system and after the Blue Chips one, and now this one, people are accusing me of, of having all this prepared, which, you know, look, I'm probably due for a dud.

• 36:51Bill Simmons?

  One where you're just saying, "Ah."

• 36:54Speaker 01

  And then I stay on.

• 36:54Bill Simmons?

  Seen it once.

• 36:57Bill Simmons?

  You start ad-libbing.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  I just start getting, I'm getting stuff wrong, like Kawhi's injury. So I'll just be like, "Yeah, I don't know." The Endor thing and the Ewoks, you're like, "Dude, that's the third one." Like, but it's just in the vans in the back going, "It's the sixth one."

• 37:12Bill Simmons?

  Uh, all right, we're gonna take a break, come back and, uh, talk rest of the playoffs. This episode is brought to you by Degree Original Cool Rush Deodorant. Remember last year? People got really mad when Degree changed their Cool Rush formula. One dude even started a petition. What was up with that guy? Well, guess what? Degree listened. They admitted they messed up. They're bringing back the original Cool Rush scent and thank God. You've gotta love when a brand can own its mistakes and it's in Walmart, Target and other stores right now for under $4. Grab some. Find out why it's been the number one men's antiperspirant.

• 37:52Bill Simmons?

  For the last decade. By the way, you should put that on, especially we're about to hit the summer. It's getting sweaty in the summers. The original degree cool rushes back and it smells like victory for all of us. Happy Mother's Day out there to all the mothers who are not watching right now. I think it's the hardcore sports fans. I have my mother-in-law and my mother in my house right now who don't understand why I had to record a podcast with my guy Ryan Russillo. But listen, OKC Denver game four, there was a lot of things going on. That game moved to a whole other level of storylines, things I was just really intrigued by, things I wanted to find out, answers I needed. And I'll start here, Russillo. Really hard for Denver

• 38:36Bill Simmons?

  to score against a team as incredible defensively as OKC. And I don't know how they're going to win two more of these. What OKC was doing defensively, especially in the fourth quarter,

• 38:51Bill Simmons?

  I thought was pretty bonkers. It's pretty, pretty, pretty high level and it made up for all their weird offensive stuff. It's just when they want to get stops, it just feels like it's like a miracle when you're scoring against them. So that was my biggest takeaway. What was yours?

• 39:06Speaker 01

  That I cannot believe I didn't have every dollar in my account assigned to the under.

• 39:14Bill Simmons?

  The ones, what was it? 179?

• 39:17Speaker 01

  It was 227 was the number. And by the way, that Aaron Gordon three, it was OKC minus six at 90, what? Yeah. Four. So I'm sitting there and you and I had talked after game three, I've had anxiety. I don't even care who wins, right? I've had anxiety watching both of these games. Like I've never really quite felt like this because they're such grinds. And game three was just a grind. And of course, because of what we do, you're watching the game constantly thinking about all the different things you could like at one point when OKC was down, I'm wondering if you're going to start sitting here saying, is there an Usman Jang, Jaylen Brown match at some point or something like, you know, who knows where this is going to go because if OKC is down 3-1, like we start talking about all the different storylines, which I still want to get to, but knowing that they had to play that game.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  And then play this one less than 48 hours later and in Denver, I just kept thinking about legs and who would have energy and it's the worst scoring first quarter we'd had in the playoffs, like a tide for the worst ever combined. I mean, it's just, it's an absolute grind and Denver gets to the free throw line.

• 40:17Bill Simmons?

  It was worse to watch than the score, which was an awful score. The actual shots and the way people were missing and how far off everything was, it was like eight points felt like a miracle. I was like surprised Denver had eight points.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  It was so bad, but it made sense. It made sense. And then when they talked to Chet, you know, even him, this young guy, great athlete. And I thought, you know, I know the sideline stuff gets a lot of grief and maybe we're guilty of it at times too, but I thought there was a lot of really good sideline stuff and Chet was incredibly honest being like, you know, 48 hours, maybe even said 36 hours later. And so the start of this game was not surprising.

• 40:56Bill Simmons?

  What was he said? He said, this is basically a back to back. And this is what, when we were talking on Friday, we were like, I mean, that game Friday was, was just immense. And we were like, God damn, they have to play Sunday afternoon after that? Cause it felt like two playoff games on Friday.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  And that's what I do love about this because we closed the season with Denver, you know, being the worst defensive team going into the playoffs, a change over their coach. You're curious about what the rotation would be. Remember when Pickett closed against Sacramento in the regular season? We're like, okay, this is what Adelman's gonna do. And you're like, oh, he's not gonna do any of that stuff. But so you're left with, um, cause there's, there's so much that I want to get to here, but you're left with just a, I don't know if it's a sinking feeling, overwhelming feeling that Denver can't get two more against the Thunder.

• 41:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, here's what we found out. I mean, we could cover each team. What we found out with Denver is they're down to six guys and one of them was Westbrook who could not make a shot today, right? And was basically they, they weren't even guarding him. Um, pick, uh, Strother and Watson were the two that played. The Watson minutes, um, will not be released as a 4K HD DVD. I don't think anytime soon. Uh, Jokic looked just like they were just beating him with a two by four and they were doing exactly what they should be doing against him. They're trying to wear him down. It was so hard for them to get good shots that when they got a good shot, there was that shot Murray made in the fourth quarter when he went to his left, did a hop step and got like an open 15 footer. And it was like, wow, they got space on a jump shot. Like it was like celebration.

• 42:28Bill Simmons?

  The thing that was crazy to me about OKC in the fourth quarter is Dort wasn't out there for like the last five or six minutes, who I voted for defensive player of the year. And they're playing defense like that and they don't even have him out there. You know, but when you think like they just come and waves with, I thought Wallace was great today. Dort, Caruso, the Hartenstein and Holmgren combo, just ridiculous on Jokic. You think he goes from, he goes from last year, the Gobert, Towns, Nas, just like some twosome of that, the entire series to whatever's happened in this one. It's just, it's a lot, man. I, my big takeaway was like, I think OKC is better defensively than anyone else is at anything would be how I would say it.

• 43:13Bill Simmons?

  It's like when we talk about football and we're like so and so's defense is the best thing anyone's got going right now. And it feels like that way with OKC.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  There's some parallels here with, and we'll see what happens in game four with New York and Boston. But when you think about Boston, the regular season against the Knicks, you see those first two games go the way they go. And then when it looks right for Boston, you just go, okay, this feels like the significant gap that would lead you to pick Boston against New York in playoff series. And before we had the finals, so these are before the final numbers from today's game. But when they ran through the regular season and playoff results between Denver and OKC, OKC in the wins is like plus 27 and a half better and Denver in their wins are plus six and a half better. But I'm glad you brought up Caruso because you know, the overtime thing and the clutch scoring in this series for OKC has been a mess up until today where Denver, I think had, when they put up the clutch number,

• 44:04Speaker 01

  it was like 4:53 left to go and they had five points up until the Gordon free throw because he went one of two and then he hit the three off of the violation. So you know, those points like, yeah, technically they count as clutch points as, as they all do. But it was pretty clear like Denver just wasn't going to get anything offensively. But Caruso, like I kept wondering, and I think Dagnall was looking for this, was who's going to give me energy? Who is going to fight? And Caruso had an incredible offensive rebound, kept the play alive. They get to the bonus. He had the strip on Murray. They were just constantly getting in there, tipping and active. And I think that's part of the decision of everybody's dead in game three. So he starts overtime with Chet on the bench. And I'm with you. I love the Hartenstein-Chet combo for Jokic because it's just one is always going to be

• 44:49Speaker 01

  on you and the other one is always going to be lurking, even if Aaron Gordon is going to be hitting threes. So I understand what Dagnall's kind of like trying to figure out, you know, because he does have all of these options, which made me like the Thunder so much, but sometimes that can almost get in your own way. And so it's funny, the thing that he probably felt like with Caruso's energy and defense, he was going to try to get away with it and then OKC falls apart and overtime Denver's just running away. They could, they end up going up in the series like, how is this happening? And yet I think the same thing that he was hoping would happen in overtime actually happened. I thought Caruso, the star of the fourth quarter, it's hard to say he's the story of the game because there's all these different things we can point to, but his effort level, when you could tell, like this is the youngest team going on this kind of title run.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  If OKC were to pull this kind of thing off, you're thinking, don't their legs despite Denver, you know, having this Bain approach, like we grew up in the darkness, like this is what we're all about. Like you're going to be running around mile high.

• 45:44Bill Simmons?

  Bain approach.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know, you think we're going to be uncomfortable at home with our resume and what this group has done, even though I still think them blowing the lead to Minnesota is one of the most surprising results in playoff history. I think Caruso was that guy for the Thunder, because even a really young team, like I still think these teams were just dead today, considering what they went through on Friday night.

• 46:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I thought, it's weird, you almost have to work backwards because they have six guys who could belong out in crunch time, right? And Caruso is kind of the odd man out in the fourth quarter of game three. Then they're trying to, you would almost think after, especially after watching the game today, you could talk me into Dort replacing Jalen Williams. And Jalen Williams, if he's going to be what he was offensively in this game, I voted for him 13 all NBA, by the way, but there's a version of them where they just go the two bigs, SGA, Dort and Caruso, and that's it. And they just try to lay the defense down as much as they can. I, those are good problems to have, but the big thing that happened today was.

• 46:45Bill Simmons?

  You know, SGA was okay. I think he had three shots. It was the fact that Denver just couldn't score. I think that was the most shocking piece to me. They always figure out how to get shots. I didn't like the shots they were getting. We always talk about that with Denver. Like, I just like the shots. I like the decisions. I trust the process with them.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  When the two man game with Murray and Jokic, which everybody knows is coming, but all the variations of it, like in game three, it's, it's just funny because you'll watch and go, how come you're not doing this the entire time? But you can't do it against any NBA team, let alone the Thunder every single time. But when they, when those two guys get into a rhythm and they're figuring out the switches and they're figuring out the help. And then Murray uses one screen and then he uses the second screen on Jokic. He had a three at the top of the key. I mean, this is the same thing that we've seen here for years, but when it's working, even at times, again, against a team with a defensive profile like Oklahoma City, you almost feel helpless.

• 47:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, you think like game six, game seven against the Clippers series, right? Those were, I think, one day off between those, then went right into this series. They had a really tough game one, get killed in game two, game three Friday night, and this one. They, I don't know if some of it is fatigue with Jokic from the burden that he has. But I think what was interesting about what, and I don't even know how to define this. They sped him up by like fifth of a second with like his touch, maybe a fourth of a second, maybe a sixth of a second. His touch around the rim, which is usually one of the things that's so crazy when you watch him, you're like, fuck, how does he make these all the time? How does he make these spinning eight footers?

• 48:21Bill Simmons?

  How does he make these ones where he's going toward the basket and it, how does the ball just always bounce around the rim and go in for him? What is, what does he do that? And they, they somehow fucked that up. And now when he said it's like hard back of the rim or it's short or it's like, you know, or sometimes it's just off the backboard. But they, they did something to him and I'm really interested to see if he can solve it. Cause I think he's the best offensive player I've seen since, uh, early 2010s LeBron at least. And they've done something to him that they've sped him up and fucked him up. And now when he takes open threes, they don't seem like they're going to go in, which is where he was in the Minnesota series when, when that went sideways too. The difference here is that, um, when you have a six man team

• 49:04Bill Simmons?

  and a couple of those guys are not guys who can create their own shot really under any circumstance. If he's not gonna shoot a little bit better, I just don't see how they get to 100 points for Sill. Like that under being 227 was nuts. We should have bet the house on that one.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  I can't believe we talked about it Friday night.

• 49:22Bill Simmons?

  I know.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  I it's like a lingering anger I'm having with myself.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  One quick thing though on Jalen Williams, I would push back a little bit on how flexible you would be about subbing out somebody like that because he still needs, he still needs to be your number two. And in game three, it gets lot, he was incredible and he was incredible offensively closing. It was, there was a silver lining to it of, you know, if this team's going to win a title, I mean, he needs to be a lot more than he was last year. Even with all the, you know, the crazy thing too is about OKC. When they get stuff kind of going side to side and Denver's in that zone and they're loaded up to one side. And there's all these kickouts to the other side. These guys are not making these shots nearly enough and they're all really good looks. So if you're on that OKC staff, you know, I've, look, I've thought

• 50:10Speaker 01

  about all sorts of things and, and I don't know how ridiculous you were getting thinking about like, okay, what's the SGA conversation?

• 50:15Bill Simmons?

  I just said, maybe they, maybe they bench Jalen Williams down the stretch. It was pretty ridiculous. I voted for him 13 ball NBA.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  I think that is ridiculous because.

• 50:24Bill Simmons?

  Here's why I said that though, because I thought this was an absolute, absolute must win. We must win gets thrown around too much.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  He's your second best player. He has to be out there.

• 50:32Bill Simmons?

  But I, but I'm saying if I'm in the fourth quarter of this game four and I know I have to win at some point with six minutes left, I'm like, I don't care whose feelings I hurt. I'm trying, I need to try to win this game now and I have six options and I'm just gonna go. So anyway, I wouldn't have been surprised if they did it. But that's how, that's how important I thought this game was to them because especially as a younger team, you know, you go down 3-1 in the series, you can't finish these games, these 50-50 games where you, you've already lost two in the series, right? Denver's 4-0 in these. And I just felt, I felt like OKC had to have this. I didn't feel like Denver had to have this. I feel like OKC did.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  I'm not with you on benching Jalen Williams because he's your second best player. He had the huge game three. I mean, you could even talk about like what you're doing to him. If you want to play that game.

• 51:22Bill Simmons?

  It's too risky. I'm with you. I'm just, I went through the thought process. It's too risky long-term with it, but that's the point. Nothing was working for them though.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Your second best on-ball guy, you know, as good as Dord is, you're, you're really just giving him spot ups. Caruso's got more drive in him, but again, a lot of his looks are just open looks. You know, Wiggins was out there. Joe had a brick in the first half. You're like, that is your shot is wide open. You know, Chet looked a little hesitant to shoot on a couple of those catches. So I think they ran a really good thing. Once they get SGA to collapse, get the defense to collapse around SGA. Like one time he got caught, got tied up. And I'm like, what the hell is going on? And then another time he kind of like was ready for it. And they swing it and they had a Caruso three off that. They had Jalen Williams drive on it, but granted, he only ended up with 10 points. I think we should stay on the Jokic thing though, because you're right. And it's funny because we're having this MVP off series and all the arguments about these two guys.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  And I think sometimes we build them both in a Superman. We can't believe they're missing any of these shots. But since game one, Jokic is missing too many shots for him. But every time you look at some of these possessions, at game three, there was a possession about six minutes to go in that game. And it was the eighth turnover for Jokic. And he had Chet and SGA right on him underneath the rim. And the other three players all had one foot in the paint. They don't care. I mean, this reminds me again of that Lakers regular season game where they won at Denver. And they were like, look how prepped up they are and look how much help is coming to Jokic. And look how little they care about all of this outside shooting. Like Westbrook's had some really nice energy moments. And to your point, he's not afraid, uh, which is really important this time of year.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  But he's not making enough of these shots and he's taking a lot of them on top of everything else. So you'll see times where his defender doesn't even care where Westbrook is. And there may be somebody else. Yeah. And then there's somebody else on the other side. Like they had one play where Watson and Russ were in the same corner. And no one cared, like their spacing next to each other was so terrible. So when you look at these Jokic possessions, I think they're speeding him up because he knows he's like, all right, these guys are swarming on me. I have no time and I'm dealing with double bigs and I have all this length. Yeah, it'd be nice if he made some more shots. It'd be nice if he stopped missing some of these huge free throws that we even saw in the Clippers series. But just there's stills where I'll laugh going, look at what is happening as soon as Jokic.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Stops his dribble and he's in the paint. And there's just, you know, whether it's Porter Jr., who was the difference in game three, there's still like just a lack of respect for any of those guys.

• 53:52Bill Simmons?

  Porter was, yeah, 0 for 5 from three today. Watson was 0 for 2. Westbrook's air ball was the biggest one in the game. And then from on the OKC side, Dort was 2 for 10, Holmgren 0 for 3, Williams was 0 for 5, Jalen Williams. Jalen Williams was 2 for 13 in that game.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a pretty rough.

• 54:13Bill Simmons?

  And then Isaiah Joe came in to give them some heat check threes and went 0 for 3. But the Jokic thing, he spins, he spins around and there's another guy waiting for him. When he does the thing where he, he tries to back down and he backs down and he can either throw it out or spin in, they're sending these guys to his blind side, like little like rocket ships. So now he's worried about those guys too. So he can't do it the same way. And it's all goes to what you said. It's like watching a football team. It's like when, uh, when the Ravens had the Derrick Henry year, when teams would load, they'd just do eight man fronts and he would still run through them. And then at some point in the playoffs, teams were like, well, how about an 11 man front? Are you going to run through that? How about we put everybody up on the line? Can you run through this?

• 54:59Bill Simmons?

  That's kind of what they were doing, I thought, to Jokic. But I still, listen, we both watched Tony Jokic. Like his touch has not been great around the, the stuff that he's made all year. He's not making. And he's missing wide open threes. And it's just, this is not the best version of him. And I don't want to make excuses for him. Uh, cause I think he could play better. And I think he looked really frustrated down the stretch where he was doing the sinking shoulders. I can't believe I missed that. Um, he just is a little discombobulated. So kudos to them because they figured out how to disrupt one of the best offensive players we've ever seen.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  And it's almost like, you know, handing the ball off a few times, even if you don't think the reward is there is you have to get him into those switches. You have to be attacking him in that first half. Uh, I mean, look, he always looks tired. He's probably far more conditioned than most people because he's in Colorado year round. Um, so, you know, even though he looks exhausted 30 seconds into every single game, uh, the end of the game, it just doesn't seem that it wears on him as much. So I, I think it's both things. I mean, you'd be denying. The level of detail here on trying to make sure there's like a third guy there all the time. I mean, Jay Billis called it like a line defense. It felt like to your Derrick Henry point, like a goal line defense on that one play that I was looking at. Yeah, I thought they did a great job on the broadcast and I really loved a lot of like useful graphics

• 56:17Speaker 01

  and hey, here's what's the clutch trends. There was a lot of good stuff, which I think doesn't ever get, we just complain too much and then we never compliment enough. So here we are, a couple of positive guys.

• 56:28Bill Simmons?

  Three pointers, by the way, 10 for 41 for OKC, 11 for 45 for Denver.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  But to Jokic, like he can make some more of those.

• 56:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he could. No, I don't think Denver's done in this series by any means. I think this would have been way more dangerous for OKC. As a young team where young guys aren't playing well, and now you're down 3-1, and now it turns into 48 hours of everybody just dissecting them, which can go either way. Sometimes it can raise the team's level, sometimes it can tighten the sphincters. But these are a lot of guys.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Like if OKC's down 3-1 and you're doing a pod, like what do you allow yourself to do?

• 57:04Bill Simmons?

  I think I'd lead with the Denver piece of it. I just think it's so incredible that they won two of those first three. Like they stole game one, just an outright theft. And then game three, which I think you and I both loved, Denver's just, you know, that was just that we used to be the champs and we've been in a few of these rodeos and we kind of know what we're doing. It was one of those games. The physicality of it was ridiculous. It was an awesome game. Like that was a hard, Friday was a get, was a hardwood classics NBA TV showing it in August and I'll probably end up watching the fourth quarter in the OT. This game will never be seen again. Nobody will ever watch this game.

• 57:45Bill Simmons?

  And SGA, I think that they've, they've disrupted him in all these different ways, much like OKC has disrupted Jokic. Like that, this is the best I've ever seen a team defend his drives. They're ready for his herky jerky stuff. They never give up on him because he loves doing that hockey move where he kind of drives through and he brings it back out, then he cuts back in. They're always ready for that. So when you think like they've only had six guys. And one of them has this giant bandage on his shoulder and it's unclear how hurt he is. Like it's pretty impressive, but uh, you know, ultimately your season comes down to stuff like Russell Westbrook's going to be wide open in the, in the corner and he's going to airball a three that you needed because

• 58:29Bill Simmons?

  you had to have Russell Westbrook out there as good as he's been as a bench guy. But that's kind of the difference when you get to this level. It's a couple of plays.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Look, I do think there are some real positives with Westbrook's minutes, um, just for his comfort level.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  You know, there, there can be moments. Look, when they got down huge in game two, it may not have mattered, but it felt like he was like, all right, I can fix this.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe it's a compliment that he thinks that he can, but I mean, if you just run through the totals here now, I mean, we're talking about somebody who's a 23% and he's taking a lot of threes because they're there for him. By the way, three point shooting combined in the first half, 13.6% worst percentage in a half in playoff games since 1998. The SGA stuff, had they lost, right? If they're down 3-1, because I think it's worth maybe doing some of this stuff. Now then it becomes a little bit of like, hey, this is what those other players, remember Windhorse was sharing this? And then we both talked about it. It was like, players do not fear this OKC team. And then what were some of like the default defensive things that other teams are doing? We saw Minnesota do it in one of those awesome regular season games against him.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  It's like, look, we're just going to force the ball out of his hands. We're going to trap him. We don't trust enough of these other guys because it's this SGA thing at the top. And if we can clog that up, then guys that aren't as comfortable taking some of these shots in the playoffs, it's going to lead to success. Um, you know, there was a real like moment there where you're like, would you allow yourself to have some of these conversations about is SGA's regular season approach too much like some of these other guys that have the ball in their hands the entire time? And then it doesn't translate necessarily to the playoffs. I think in the past, sometimes with some of the guys we've talked about, it's totally fair with SGA felt a little unfair if they had been down 3-1, but I think those things would have happened.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  You know, I looked at the regular season drives per game. It's 20.6 going into the night, 19 drives per game. I think the Memphis numbers are sort of weird, but he's still taking, because it feels like, is he taking as many shots? Is he getting to the free throw line as much?

• 1:00:34Bill Simmons?

  There's one difference though. Playoff officiating versus regular season officiating. These games are just more physical. And there's been times when watching them during the season, he would get calls that I don't think he's getting the same calls. And by the way, I don't think Jokic is either. I just think it's the playoffs and everything's physical. Everything's physical from the first quarter on. And it's, you're just not going to get away with as much. So the stuff that he used to get away with in the paint and it would get to the line. It doesn't feel like it's happening the same way anymore.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Well, it definitely shows up on a few plays, but the overall numbers are right in line with where he is in the regular season. I was surprised. Is he not driving as much because he's getting cut off more? No, that's the same. Are the touches per game the same? Yes, they are. Now granted, the Memphis series maybe takes away from some of that stuff. Free throw attempts per game. I mean, he's in this series now taking nine free throw attempts per game. After today, he took 12. The regular season, he took nine free throw attempts per game. So I'm with you that there's probably a few moments where he's like, man, I get that call in February.

• 1:01:40Bill Simmons?

  I mean, he had 18 in an OT game on Friday. He had 25 today, but some of those were coming at the end. It just doesn't seem like it's as easy, but he's also going against a team that certainly we did not see this kind of defense from Denver during the season. That's been the other story here.

• 1:02:00Bill Simmons?

  This team fired their coach with a week to go in the season, basically. Their effort was spotty back and forth. And to watch them just turn into the team like, oh, hypothetically, they could be this, but it'll never happen. And then to watch how hard they're playing. It all starts with Gordon, who's been, I think, the biggest winner of the playoffs from a career standpoint. I just think he's being discussed differently now, don't you?

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  I love him. Yeah.

• 1:02:24Bill Simmons?

  I mean, he's just.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  But I also, I also love.

• 1:02:26Bill Simmons?

  Is he our approval rating guy this year? No, I'm saying, yeah, we, there's a bunch of guys, but is he the 100% approval rating guy of the 25 playoffs? Like who's, who's zagging on Aaron Gordon at this point? Everybody's like all in, Mr. Nugget, Mr. Clutch, one of the great, one of the great.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Maybe Orlando's staff. It's like, sure, now.

• 1:02:46Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the, yeah, the.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  So he's not a small forward.

• 1:02:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, no, he's been awesome.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  I think the other SGA part of it, just to complete that part of the conversation is maybe, you know, this is actually really funny. I'll never forget like how interesting I thought this was when A-Rod signed with the Rangers. Right. So going back 25 years ago now, and he said, you know, when you fail in big spots, everybody's surprised, like your home fan base, like he signs with the Rangers and all you've ever seen is highlights of me doing amazing things on SportsCenter, especially back then when that's all you had. And so when you see me fail, because you've never seen those things before, you almost think like, wait, you're not, you're not supposed to do any of these things. And so the way, I mean, the fitting thing is that we're seeing both Jokic and SGA struggle

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  in a very intense, very physical, and Denver's defensive level, again, I wouldn't match it to the Thunder, but it's not what it was at the end of the regular season or going into this whole thing. You're seeing two guys have a really hard time with as much attention on them, and maybe it makes sense the series is 2-2. I have a question for you.

• 1:03:54Bill Simmons?

  I just wanted to shout out Holmgren really quick.

• 1:03:58Bill Simmons?

  Just really enjoy him. Like, it's just funny to think back at that draft and how much time we spent on those three guys, wondering what the possible ceilings were of each guy, and then feels like Palo and Chet are gonna probably hit the ceiling of whatever we expected. I love how competitive he is. We knew Hartenstein was in there because of the playoffs last year. We got a glimpse of it. But you never know with some of these guys until they're thrown into the fire like this. I just think going against Jokic, just knowing that dude's lurking for two solid weeks, right? And to not get in foul trouble and to just battle him and you just have to battle him. That's the only way to do it. You're not going to beat him. You're not going to shut him down. You just have to fight him.

• 1:04:41Bill Simmons?

  And I, I just think he's, he's shown more fight than maybe even I thought he had, and I was a big fan of his. Really like just both of those guys are just traded haymakers with this guy who's this fucking monolith. You know, it's impressive. Anyway, what was your question?

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Do you think Malone is rooting for the Nuggets?

• 1:05:03Bill Simmons?

  Great question. Came to the right place. As you know, I'm a spiteful guy.

• 1:05:08Bill Simmons?

  I'm guessing he has a lot of relationships and the answer would depend, well, you know, relationships with these guys. The answer would depend on whether he thinks Jokic nudged him out or not. Whether they just told Jokic they were doing it, or they cleared it with, like, if Jokic had a chance to defend him or not, and if he feels like Jokic had his back or not, would be the answer. My guess is Jokic probably was like, whatever. Hey, we got a new coach. It's gonna be that guy. It's cool. I don't care. It might have been one of those. But it also might have been, hey, we're thinking of doing this. If you don't want us to do it, tell us now.

• 1:05:49Bill Simmons?

  Count to 10. You don't have to say yes or no. Just count to 10. Like the Watergate. When they call, yeah, the end when they call Watergate about, is that the final guy on the list? And maybe he just didn't stick up for him. So I don't know. What do you think?

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:06:07Bill Simmons?

  He's rooting against them. Cause he's probably mad at the Cronkies.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Sure. Mad at, well, the front office, the main guy isn't there anymore. You know, maybe pay 10 years with Joker and this is my guy and these guys all want to title together. But I would never trust anyone's answer, especially when your whole life has been just competing. So if they were to win a title, right? Especially considering the odds going into this year versus the year that they did it with him. I wouldn't blame him. I just don't know too many people that have spent their professional lives.

• 1:06:45Bill Simmons?

  Rooting against them. I think he is. My answer is yes. The more I'm thinking about it. You know, there's a, there's a youth parent phenomenon when your kid plays on a team and then somebody comes in and plays their position and you're supposed to be rooting for the team and you're rooting for everyone to do well. But at the same time, you're like, all right, don't do too well in this spot. Like you're just, it's human nature. People know what's best for them.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  I don't know if I would want to hire a head coach that would be rooting for the team after he was fired by them.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  He can't answer it honestly, by the way. And even if, I mean,

• 1:07:20Bill Simmons?

  I have an OKC question for you.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:07:24Bill Simmons?

  Do you feel any differently about them than you did 10 days ago?

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Maybe just a little, uh, because I thought they were really special and you know, you look at the net rating, you look at the point differential on what they did this season. This wasn't just a really good, I mean, this team could have won 70 games if they wanted to, uh, you know, I was looking back at it, you know, you go back to like some of these other regular seasons, right? Utah in 21. I mean, that was a team that projected as like a 59 win team. So, all right, it's not 68, but they were number one in the league in net rating, plus nine points. That Phoenix team after they had lost, remember how good they were in the regular season, but 64 win team, net rating was less for them. And so I'll admit, like, is OKC struggling? Because with the way this game started, you go, how

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  is OKC not up 20 already? And part of it was free throws and obviously OKC couldn't hit any threes either. And so, yeah, I'm allowing the down 3-1 thoughts to creep into my head. Back to what I kind of hinted at there is Windhorst saying, players are not afraid of this OKC team. And I thought that that was dismissive. I started thinking about the way players, GM, and how wrong they are about guys they actually want to play with. I started thinking about some of the results from the player polls. And I don't even know if All-Star voting is even fair to do, but I'm like, there's so many times we have access to the way players think. I'm like, what? How do you guys do this every night?

• 1:08:52Bill Simmons?

  And the ex-player podcast, don't leave them out. Some of that dialogue.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  That's the best example because, you know, as I've admitted numerous times, like, I spend my life talking about this sport and, you know, you're in rooms with guys that have done it. You're like, well, how can I disagree with them? And then after, you're right, you see a few clips from the pods, I go, I'm gonna keep disagreeing. I'm gonna feel even more emboldened because this is fucking insanity what you're selling me. And so when I heard that coming out months ago, I'm like, oh, here we go again. Like, they're new, they're young, it's a smaller market, like, everybody's just being super dismissive. You're just gonna stop? Like, SGA's had one of the most productive guard seasons we've ever seen. You're just gonna shut all the faucet up? And so I was allowing some of that stuff to creep in my head where I'm going, they're down 3-1. You know, is it the randomness

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  of playoff basketball? Or is there some real truth to like this team? Isn't as good as I thought they were, the numbers that are historic. They're not just good, these are historic numbers and they have all these different options. We're like, that guy's coming in and it's like, is, is there something to be said that this was going to be another year of seasoning for this group? Because this would have been a massive disappointment. Who knows, they still might lose this series because I'm probably, no, I would say it's, I'm way more impressed where Denver is at being 2-2 in this series, which then I think the other side of that is that, yeah, maybe I thought OKC was going to run through this team and they're not.

• 1:10:15Bill Simmons?

  My answer is both. I'm actually more impressed with OKC's defense than I expected to be because I think it's one thing to be a great regular season team, but to watch their playoff defense be even, and even maybe a little bit more impressive. So yes, on that.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  But that's not surprising to me. I, I thought, there was no way you could watch them all year and be like, they're not going to be as good in the playoffs.

• 1:10:38Bill Simmons?

  But there was this last level of like, all right, now what's going to happen when you're going against this Jokic Murray gauntlet when you're down 2-1 in a series? What, what level can you go to? And they, they just answered my questions there.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just, I didn't think, I think there was one thing you could absolutely bet on.

• 1:10:55Bill Simmons?

  I'll be honest, like Chet against Jokic, as we have to shut down Jokic with these two guys and one of them's Chet, I didn't think Chet was going to be big enough to handle him. And I think he's shown over the last couple of games with Hartenstein that, that maybe he can.

• 1:11:09Bill Simmons?

  The Jalen Williams piece is the piece I'm, I'm more lukewarm on than I was and he was awesome on Friday. I thought he had a really good game and, and actually kind of, if they won the game, he would have probably been the biggest reason. But it, you know, when you're the second guy, and we saw, we saw this happen with, uh, Jalen Brown last year. When you're the second guy and sometimes you also have to resemble the first guy every once in a while for a team to really achieve its, what do you like, taking numbers?

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, just going through Jokic's numbers here again, but go ahead, keep on listening.

• 1:11:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, that second guy, I think has to be more than a second guy sometimes if you're going to win four rounds. And Jalen got to that point last year. I think the best example is Pippen from 90 to 91. Now 90 ends the worst way possible with the migraine in the game seven, but he just in general wasn't quite ready yet. And then in 91, that whole season, especially down the stretch, was awesome. And then went to that Laker game and was like just such an additive asset game after game and went after Magic and like what he did to the Pistons. He was just awesome and it was consistently awesome. And I'm sure people go on the basketball office like, no, he was three for 10 in game three.

• 1:12:24Bill Simmons?

  It's like, I'm telling you, Pippen went up a level and you could see it. And Jalen Williams, I can't tell if he's a year away from that or not, because I think it's in there. But Friday night versus today, like that swing for four rounds against the wrong team that might, because I don't, if it's not him, I don't know who the third guy is who can create offense for them. They're just swinging the ball around, you know, that I just don't see it. And I think they're going to end up in a lot of these under 100 games where the defense is going to carry them. And maybe it'll be more like a 99 Spurs type of situation where your defense is so awesome, that's how you win. But so I'm a little, little, little more scared on that side, but the defense has been so good, I think it evens out. The coach

• 1:13:09Bill Simmons?

  too, by the way, I thought his game one was bad, you know, hasn't been in a lot of these, but I think he, I thought he blew game one. I just thought he did a couple dumb things. I think this is going seven, Russillo. Yeah, it feels right. Also, I thought it was notable that OKC was favored between six or seven for this game today in Denver. Yeah. Coming off of Friday night, because Vegas, like with the Celtics, Celtics are down 0-2 and Vegas is like Celtics by six, still have them favored for the series, right? Yeah. Whoever, FanDuel, name whoever set in the line. This Denver OKC one, people are like, eh, still think OKC's got it, which I thought was notable. We're gonna take a break for the podcast.

• 1:13:51Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun, sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead, but what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun.

• 1:14:34Bill Simmons?

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• 1:15:18Bill Simmons?

  PNC Bank, National Association Member, FTIC. Our guy, Anthony Edwards.

• 1:15:28Bill Simmons?

  That was, uh, here's what I think was the tough one for Golden State. I actually really liked how they played. I thought they played hard.

• 1:15:37Bill Simmons?

  That's about as good of a game three, at least for three-plus quarters, as you're gonna get from a team without Curry. And there were multiple times where it felt like they were going to bump the lead up to 10 or 11, you know, it just was always five or six. And it felt like every time they had a chance to put a cushion, Ant would hit a three, somebody would miss a layup, somebody would come back and it just, Minnesota hung around, hung around, hung around and then, and then killed them in the end. But Ant, I thought, had some really big shots and some control of the game stuff. And then Randall, this has now hit the point with Randall that I, I think he might opt out. We went from thinking like, yeah, I'll be, I'm in for 30 million

• 1:16:21Bill Simmons?

  again next year. I've exercised my player option. I'm in. I think he opts out now. He's been that good, right? Why would he opt into one year 30? He's going to be able to get more than that.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  Especially when you look at the free agents this year.

• 1:16:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  But, you know, this, this thing that we touched on last week, where you can just go through the cycle of, well, who has cap space? There's Minnesota, go find, you want to sign with Brooklyn? Is one of these other teams with like 19 million? Figure out a way to get creative? Does that make more sense to you? I mean, it probably feels like, hey, your role has worked here. It, it seems like it took a while, but he's, he's figured it out. I mean, I guess you could also argue in a way like Golden State, as hard as they fought last night, at no point did I think they were winning that basketball game. And there's probably no version of this Golden State team without Steph. I mean, who knows?

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Maybe he comes back in game five. I mean, this is, this is asking a lot of the hamstring stuff, but it just never feels like Golden State, you're never like worried they're going to run away from you the way they normally.

• 1:17:27Bill Simmons?

  With the team they have. It's funny. I actually thought they were going to win in the fourth quarter.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 1:17:32Bill Simmons?

  Because it just, because the, getting a random Kaminga just going nuts game on, combined with what Butler did for the first two and a half quarters. It was like, man, if they're ever going to win a game, this has to, this is the blueprint for how they would win a game. But they, they can't figure out the Randall piece.

• 1:17:50Bill Simmons?

  It's really interesting what a mismatch he's been these first two rounds where you've seen teams go fuck, you know, and he knows it. And I think it's the smartest, most deliberate, but not too slow, not ball stoppy, like the right level of picking his spots and taking, taking advantage of certain mismatches. I really like watching him and I, he used to be, if he wasn't my least favorite player to watch, he was in the top three, but I've really enjoyed watching him in the playoffs. And I think, I think this team kind of knows what it is. The, the part that I don't really understand is what they're getting from Conley. Um, the fact that he's been better than I thought he was going to be. I thought he had some really good defensive stuff, like that key play of the game. He played excellent, I forget who it was. It was

• 1:18:35Bill Simmons?

  maybe Kaminga. Excellent defense where it led to that fast break where they had Gobert as the trailer as the dunk, which was basically the play of the game.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Was that the late shot clock?

• 1:18:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and strip Kaminga. But it all started because Conley was able to actually play defense. And Conley was somebody that in December, January, we were wondering like, what were they going to do with this? Like, were they going to just bail on him? Like, that's how bad he was looking. And now he's looking pretty good. But, um, you know, it's a bummer. Do you think if Curry plays, do you think they're better or no?

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Wait.

• 1:19:07Bill Simmons?

  Golden State. You think they can win this with healthy Curry the whole time?

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  Oh, the whole time. Um.

• 1:19:15Bill Simmons?

  Who would you, who, who, after watching these games without him, would you still take Minnesota?

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I would. I like that they have the good Rudy moments and the non Rudy good moments. It seems like Butler clearly, if Rudy's out, he's trying to get momentum. He's trying to get downhill and he was able to go off at times. And so it probably feels good for Rudy to come in and be like, okay, now you're going to sell. Even, even if you don't like Rudy. During their struggles in the regular season, you could see other teams get so excited when he was taken out of the game. But instead of feeling like you're playing into the opponent's hands by going small, their small is still so big.

• 1:19:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  And you're going up against Golden State where, you know, good luck on the Butler, the non-Butler minutes. I thought everybody kind of leading into that game was right. And like, hey, if Curry is out, like, you're gonna have to start taking some shots you may not like taking because it's probably better than a wide open Gary Payton second three. But he's been pretty good for the most part. I mean, Camila was incredible in game three.

• 1:20:20Bill Simmons?

  Was awful yesterday.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  Pods just can't hit a shot. Look, they, once again, I mean, Kerr, these guys must be thinking they're like, starting a startup company with the way they go into these lineups. It's like Trace Jackson Davis, people probably forgot he was on the team.

• 1:20:34Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  It's like, he's starting at center.

• 1:20:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Did he just bail down Quentin Post?

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't think, look, I didn't pick them with them playing it out. I still like Minnesota better. But that was, that was a grind for a Minnesota team. Look, they were turning the basketball over a ton. The three-point shooting for Ant had been a disaster other than that third quarter. But once you wake that dude up, I mean, it's just a different level.

• 1:21:00Bill Simmons?

  I had Minnesota in six, and I think even after watching this without Curry, I'd probably, I don't think that would have changed. Golden State feels like one and a half guys short, right? And that the reason I say one and a half instead of two is because that weird roster they have, you can get the random out of nowhere half from somebody. But for the most part, it still feels like they're short. And they can't survive terrible Draymond games with or without Curry. He was awful last night. He was really sloppy with the basketball. I thought Randall went right at him a couple of times. It was kind of shocking.

• 1:21:38Bill Simmons?

  And for all the shit he talked about Gobert, like I'm just, I was surprised that he wasn't great. I didn't love the fourth foul that was called on him. I thought that was a really big call.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Well, there's probably one he got away with. It was funny because

• 1:21:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it all evened out with him, but.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  Legs was like, you know, he's used to playing with fouls. I think it was 525 when he had had the fifth one somewhere around there. Yeah. And Legs goes, like I said, I would have taken him out. But the funny thing is with Draymond, he actually can't be trusted. I don't, I don't mind Kerr going, well, look, this whole thing is completely new and without Steph, now everybody's asked to like step, step up like not just one role, like two roles. It feels like, like, hey, you're going to have the ball in your hands a lot more and you're going to end with a decision and you're going to have to shoot in spots that normally you'd be waiting for him to cut. And by the way, all those cuts where you guys are wide open all the time, none of those are going to be there. So Draymond had the bad foul against

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Kawhi. He had the terrible foul against Memphis where he fouled out. He had a moment in the Houston series where he was in foul trouble. It's like, okay, do not give away a cheap one. He did it. And so the Jaden McDaniels drive, it's hard to tell Draymond like instinctively, somebody who's in the conversation, the defensive player of the year, to not try to find a way to come over and contest. But he had no shot on that baseline drive, none whatsoever.

• 1:22:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  But I don't, look, I don't feel bad.

• 1:22:59Bill Simmons?

  Put your hands up and don't touch them.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he, he actually can't be trusted in foul trouble. And that's, that all pales a comparison to his whole story and performance in game three. Cause I thought game three was so incredibly, um, oh, excuse me, game two, game two, when it looked like he wanted to get thrown out of the game.

• 1:23:23Bill Simmons?

  Um, I still think Golden State's not dead. But even if Curry was able to come back in game six, I don't know what version we're getting from him. You know, we're getting

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  He said early as game five.

• 1:23:36Bill Simmons?

  And I would lean closer to six. Um, it was fun though. The Kaminga thing.

• 1:23:43Bill Simmons?

  I was on Kaminga Island. I went down there last night just to watch with my fingers crossed. Brought a bottle of wine.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:23:49Bill Simmons?

  Brought some, brought some chips, some cheese, some crackers. Um, nobody was there. It was just, just.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  You must not have any public services or anything.

• 1:23:57Bill Simmons?

  There's no electricity.

• 1:24:00Bill Simmons?

  It is a weird one and I, you know, as Kerr is one of my favorite coaches, as you know, and I still, I, I think it's just so weird. That he punted on Kaminga when you watch some of the other guys in this team and I get it from his mindset. Like he makes mistakes on defense. He doesn't fit into our flow of the app, but the guy is so athletically talented. And unique with the roster they have. I still can't believe it doesn't play that. Well, here's where I've landed though, Russell. I think some guys just aren't good playing 18 to 20 minutes a game. We've seen it a lot. Some guys, they just need to play big minutes. I actually think Pritchard's a little bit like this for the Celtics.

• 1:24:39Bill Simmons?

  I don't think Pritchard is a let me come in for seven minutes each half guy. I think he needs bigger minutes and he was a huge part of, uh, why they won yesterday. But I just think some guys are like that and maybe Kaminga is one of those, but if I was a GM, I would really think about him. Like if I was the Pistons. Be like, you know what? Let's, let's look at all the tapes of when Kaminga played 30 plus minutes and try to figure out what that looks like on our team. I think he's competitive. I really think there's something there.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  I defer to Kerr on this one. Uh, he's needed him.

• 1:25:12Bill Simmons?

  Fair.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  They've invested in him and I would admit, yeah, you're right. In game two, the shot making starting game eight for eight, the pull up mid range, the finishes when he has momentum. It's.

• 1:25:23Bill Simmons?

  Bouncing off dudes on drives.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  But you know what's funny about that game is he actually was screwing up when he first came in.

• 1:25:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  He had a switch where he switched off of a worst offender into Ant. And I was like, okay, again, sometimes teams will just switch for the sake of just trying to get bodies moving around, but he wasn't thinking that way. Like he is only good when he has the ball in his hands and he's thinking, I don't have to give this to anyone else. And then after that, he decided like, oh, I'm gonna go, oh, I'm like, I've seen these Luka cuts. He kills Rudy. So it's like, I'm gonna go at Rudy. And then that didn't work. And it was, he got stuck underneath the basket by the baseline and that was kind of a mess. So there were a few things that jumped out and you'll see it over the course of him because the scoring by itself is very impressive. At his age, his athleticism and at that size,

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  the biggest win, if they were to lose this series, may be getting people to think he's worth a flyer on.

• 1:26:21Bill Simmons?

  They no question rejuvenated his trade value as a sign and trade guy. He had a play in the third quarter when, and the Warriors had momentum and he was, had Ant 40 feet from the basket and took this crazy angle and Ant just went by him and had this crazy dunk on him.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Last night, right?

• 1:26:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, he tried to pick, he tried to like get into a stance.

• 1:26:41Bill Simmons?

  So, and I watched that and I'm like, no wonder Curry's not playing him. Cause this is like, I, I don't understand how that would be your defensive tactic. Um, it's too bad. You know, Curry's 37. They put a lot of miles on him and he ended up breaking down and having an injury and it's not shocking, but it's too bad because this would have been a really fun series. Celtics next.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Uh oh. How are you?

• 1:27:05Bill Simmons?

  I did something unusual. I invited, uh, my wife's friend, Krista, who's very fun, came over yesterday and we had margaritas and I drank margaritas during the entire game. That was how I dealt with game three.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  Was that all of that?

• 1:27:19Bill Simmons?

  They drank it. They drank it up. Um, I was really nervous and just decided to enjoy my Saturday and have some cocktails and watch the Celtics and, uh, and it was a fun one.

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  First one, a lot of people are nervous. Um, so where are you though, conference wise?

• 1:27:36Bill Simmons?

  Sneaky joke. They're, they're a better basketball team. They're down one, two in the series and they've led every game by 20 plus points. I mean, how am I supposed to feel? This is a ridiculous series.

• 1:27:52Bill Simmons?

  Heidi, I've never seen a series like that.

• 1:27:56Bill Simmons?

  They're up 20 points in the second half of all three games and they're down 2 to 1. I will say, I thought, I thought Joe called a couple amazing timeouts. There was a couple where it's like, just call it now, Joe. Just don't, don't be a hero. Call the timeout now. The Knicks are rumbling, they're ready to go on a run here and he called it three times. And, uh, and I thought the most important thing he did, which of course they did not mention at the halftime show, was just played Pritchard. They, he just, he played him 18 minutes in the first half, kept him out there. Holiday played 10 minutes. Pritchard's a real problem for the Knicks. I don't fully understand it, but they, they don't seem to have anybody on their team who can guard him. He's not afraid to guard Brunson.

• 1:28:40Bill Simmons?

  Spaces the floor. Uh, the more he plays, the better he is. And, uh, I thought he was absolutely massive and the biggest reason they won the game. And then also Horford on two days rest, which by the way, will not be happening again for three more games. But Horford, two days rest versus one day rest was, was big. And I thought Porzingis, as much luggage as he, as he looks like, he was still pretty important defensively, uh, in a couple patches of that game, just by being long and kind of staying around with his hands up. So, great win. They needed it. Um, I thought the Knicks, they played three games now and haven't looked good in any of them.

• 1:29:21Bill Simmons?

  Which means they're due for a good game, which is the part that worries me the most. They haven't played a good game yet.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  Defensively, I think Boston's been terrific in this series. Uh, what they're doing to Brunson, how they've contained him. And granted, like Brunson started getting it going. Um, you know, he closed game two, obviously really well. And maybe it doesn't matter because they're down so much in game three, but there was a couple of moments like MSG was hoping, like can this thing get to 15, you know, what's, what's gonna happen here?

• 1:29:50Bill Simmons?

  That was the great Joe timeout. When it got to 17, Joe's like, timeout.

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if you look at the Knicks, regular season, 117 points per 100 possessions. Granted, it's the playoffs, it's going to be different. It's only three games, but it's 101 for the Knicks offensively against the Celtics defense. And it was 110, I think, against Detroit. Brunson's 38, 39% splits. The free throw thing has not been a big part of it. They tried maybe a little bit there.

• 1:30:17Bill Simmons?

  The Jay conversation. Yeah, it's a little harder to get to the line these days.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the overall free throw numbers, I would say for Brunson, even though it turns into a conversation about his baiting, the numbers don't show up the way it does for maybe a couple of other players. He took nine against Detroit and Kat has made one three in this entire series. I mean, his splits are atrocious. He's shooting 14% from three, 43 overall. I also think he's getting incredibly frustrated because it's the default go to. If Boston's looking for something, hey, just get Kat in the action and he's probably not going to be here quick enough. I mean, it's just asking a lot with his body type and the way he moves to be able to contest all of these threes. But I think my favorite part of that game was that even if you're going to make more threes, which they clearly did, their wide open numbers, I think Schulman had at NBA.com on wide open.

• 1:31:05Bill Simmons?

  I like him.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  Right, 25%, 12 of 48, whatever tracking they were using. I went through the game one stuff. First two games combined. In game three, 12 and 19. So, I mean, you could, you could simplify and say, hey, that's the game.

• 1:31:20Bill Simmons?

  No, but that's, that wasn't it though. The offense was so much more sophisticated than it was those first two games. I really liked, I liked how they played in the first half.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  There's, there's like two things that I'll look for. They would get Jalen Brown into Brunson post ups. And it's not necessarily the shot that I want, but you have to send help.

• 1:31:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  And even if they have different rules of like, maybe this far out, we have Jalen get into one of those weird shot attempts. You know, I know Zach Lowe was talking about at the end of the game too, where he was foul baiting Brunson a bit. And Zach was like, oh my God, you know, and the crazy thing is, to me, Jalen has had so many shot attempts that are like that, that I can't believe he's taking them and it feels like they've gone in more than they haven't, that I almost just give him the benefit of the. Doubt on some of these tougher looks, but it was much more like there's two things with him on those post ups. As soon as he gets help, he was really good and they're swinging the ball and it's like, okay, this is something you're starting with. As opposed to just the hunt switch ISO three that I think drives even the hardest core Celtic fan absolutely crazy.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  The other part with Jalen is you have to get him with momentum with the ball. Because if he stops, then it's it's totally different and I think his aggressiveness at the start of that game. Uh, even going back to the Orlando series when no one can make a shot. It just, it feels like he is is more aware at times of what they need on offense. And I really thought it showed itself when they put together that huge first half.

• 1:32:54Bill Simmons?

  We saw it the same way. One, one thing I liked. And I don't know what happened in game one, game two, I have no explanation for it, but in game three, they put a real concerted effort into putting guys in spots that they like. That the Knicks didn't like. Tatum was another one, like one of the first plays they ran for him. Tatum's always good when he has the ball on the left, like 35 feet from the basket. You set him a pick and he dribbles right toward the key and he can pull up from three and I always feel like it's going in when he takes that. Those first two games, I just, they had him dribbling the ball up as the point forward. And, you know, playing with his food, doing the one on one stuff. I thought they got everybody involved and I thought they really did a good job with Pritchard.

• 1:33:34Bill Simmons?

  They ran a couple of Drew Holiday plays. They got White. White got a couple of plays where they set some picks for him. He was trying to go to the basket. They kept going downhill. And, uh, really smart. And then when they took the big lead in the second half, you could feel it veering back. Toward that game one, game two offense again, because they were trying to basically kill time. When this team tries to go in the prevent offense. I'm not gonna like it every time, just so you know. There's never gonna be a situation where I'm happy when they go prevent offense. I don't like it. I think when they're moving, when they try to run, that was another thing. They were trying to run off rebounds and turnovers. Push the ball, push the ball, push the ball. And you know, the Knicks aren't, that's where you want. You want towns like running back, trying to, you know, try to get back there.

• 1:34:19Bill Simmons?

  The Mitchell Robinson, Haka Robinson stuff I thought was really good. I don't like that Haka stuff. I've never liked it, but I thought it, it hurt the Knicks. It changed, you know, it, it changed the energy of the game in a couple of spots. When the Knicks felt like they were about to make some sort of comeback. Um, and then Ananobi was awful.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:34:42Bill Simmons?

  Ananobi was, he was incredible game one, right? He was the best guy on the floor in game one. And game three, you didn't know he, he had the Tobias Harris. I didn't realize you were out there. So I.

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  I'd still avoid him at all costs with the ball.

• 1:34:55Bill Simmons?

  If you have the ball.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah. Um, if you're the Knicks, what's your move?

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  A porty, three man, three big up front.

• 1:35:07Bill Simmons?

  Three bigs.

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  It's also the first game. Mitchell wasn't like a huge plus on the net side of it. And I, I'm with you. Like you can talk about his defense. I think Pritchard got him a couple of times in isolation. It's like, man, you know, like hit step backs on Mitchell Robinson from three and Pritchard was just feeling it. He was, he was great. Um, but I don't know how, you know, Reggie Miller in game two, there was an air ball where it didn't hit any. It wasn't just an air ball, it went under the net. It's an impossible free throw attempt miss. Like even the worst free throw guy in the league. Like it, it was almost like, hey, aim it right and below the net to win some sort of prize.

• 1:35:44Bill Simmons?

  Right. Like at a carnival.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And Reggie Miller goes, oh, it happens. It's like, that doesn't happen. You don't see that.

• 1:35:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  And then he had another one.

• 1:35:54Bill Simmons?

  He injured the cameraman. That, that we don't see that too often.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  And you wonder. How does that not, because I mean, every emotion Mitchell Robinson has, he wears on his sleeve. There's, there's no poker face about how incredibly frustrated he is with this. And he had tried to say something like, hey, it's a compliment that they want you out of the game as bad. It's like, that's one way to process this.

• 1:36:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, or they're trying to get point five per possession, points per possession.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  Point three for me, considering his, his free throw percentage. But you wonder how much that bleeds in and look, or it's the simplicity of a, the team we all think is better is down 0-2. They've been through some wars before. It is a team that does seem to like to make things really hard on themselves. And it was going to be really surprising if they were down 3-0. So all the other little things.

• 1:36:38Bill Simmons?

  That's good, that's good on the road in a way that I almost feel more comfortable with them on the road than at home. Their record, I think on the road was better than at home this year. I don't know why the home court advantage doesn't matter for them anymore. And I don't know really what's happened to home court advantage in general.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  They were 33 and 8.

• 1:36:58Bill Simmons?

  On the road.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's better than OKC was 32 and 8.

• 1:37:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't get it.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  Come on, you got to have something else, some other Celtics thought like, is this, did you ever allow yourself to think they were losing the series?

• 1:37:13Bill Simmons?

  I still, I still don't feel comfortable.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  I don't know if comfortable is what I'm looking for here. Did you, did you have a moment after game two where you were like, they're going to lose to the Knicks in the second round?

• 1:37:23Bill Simmons?

  I mean, I told you, I invited my wife's best friend over to have margaritas with me for the entire day because I was so nervous about game three. So that was my state of mind. It's not something I typically do on a Saturday.

• 1:37:36Bill Simmons?

  The Porzingis thing really makes me nervous. I think it puts an incredible amount of pressure on Horford and Cornet to a lesser degree. I really worry about them with rebounding. My fear for game four with the one day rest is the Knicks pounding them on the boards and the crowd being really into it. And them hanging around, hanging around and getting second chances and Horford just being luggage like he was in game two. And Porzingis just seeming.

• 1:38:06Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what the right word is.

• 1:38:08Speaker 01

  Weak.

• 1:38:08Bill Simmons?

  He's.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  He's weak. I mean, the illness, if this is what we're talking about here.

• 1:38:13Bill Simmons?

  He seems off, like almost fumbly hands, like his reflexes aren't even there 100% in the same way.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  So what he was. Bearish?

• 1:38:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, what more, more like, uh, who is that guy in OKC that Poku, a little Poku-ish? He at least learned in the Knicks game, the game three, to just keep his hands up and be like, I'm tall. I'm going to do that. But, you know, it's, it's a massive loss to have this guy who is a guaranteed 20, who is like their swagger guy in a lot of ways. When he was getting going, the whole team, it was like an electroshock.

• 1:38:49Bill Simmons?

  And also like, it's just a huge pain in the ass. And I think specifically kills towns. And you're just removing that and you're getting this kind of luggage version of him. I thought Cornet was good and Pritchard, I think is weirdly become the key swing guy of the series. Because I don't, I don't see why game three can't keep happening for him. He's put, he's getting guys in switches and he's just destroying them. And he's hitting all of his corner threes and the spacing that he gives them.

• 1:39:19Bill Simmons?

  We also have not had a good Tatum game yet, which I, I, I think is a positive for the Celts. And I thought Brown looked pretty athletic. So yeah, there's some positives, but yeah, they're down 2-1. I'm never going to feel good about this. It feels like it's going to go seven. I think the Knicks will have one awesome game when they shoot like 20 for 42 from three.

• 1:39:41Bill Simmons?

  You know, it's just law of averages. They're not going to just suck for the entire series offensively.

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  They've been great with Brunson. I, I've been really impressed with that part of it. Not to say you're going to completely shut this guy down. And I know he had a ton of points in game three, but it doesn't feel like he's had those long stretches of, oh no. Like now he's the best player on the floor and there's, there's nothing you can do with him. And Cat not providing the spacing is probably a big part of it not being a little bit easier for Brunson.

• 1:40:11Bill Simmons?

  That, that I can't explain.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  His rebounding's been great, but.

• 1:40:15Bill Simmons?

  I don't understand why he's not jacking up seven, eight threes a game. I always feel like they're going in when he takes them. It's one of those, I don't like when he's open.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  No, I wouldn't say that.

• 1:40:27Bill Simmons?

  I also don't like when they put him on the low block with, with Horford on him or a smaller guy. And he actually like gets aggressive and tries to wheel into them like he did in game two. I think that's sitting there for them. And I thought Bridges had some really nice offensive moments in game three, where he's got that little funky, near the baseline, little eight, 10 footer that they know they can go to. So they have options, but you know, they suck. Sometimes this will happen though with the game where it's the hottest ticket. The crowd's crazy. Oh my God, that crowd's going to be off the hook. And then the other team comes out and throws a haymaker and they're up 15 and the crowd, you know, everyone's just paralyzed. Like what happened? I thought, you know, people are there that went on StubHub, their kid wanted to go.

• 1:41:11Bill Simmons?

  You have all these celebrities, every Nick is there. There's this crazy energy that's happening and then you can diffuse that in like 10 minutes. You know, and we've seen that over and over again with, with the, the Monday night will be, I think be, that'll be not a crowd with the kids. That'll be like the real Nick fans. There'll be a real energy in that game. And I really worry about the rebounding for the Celtics. That they need like, it needs to be like a 14 rebound game for Tatum.

• 1:41:38Speaker 01

  Where would you put Tatum?

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  In superhero mode?

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  Get us a basket.

• 1:41:45Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I thought you were going the Superman ads. Like talk about timing. Jesus Christ.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  Nothing worse than playoff P when in the Gatorade ad, he, he's making the shot and then they came back from commercially, missed it in the game.

• 1:42:00Bill Simmons?

  I, I think this is a good PSA for all the guys out there. Maybe don't do those commercials if you might be in a tough series. I would, I would bat that one around with the, maybe your manager, your agent, the other people in your life. Like what are the worst case scenarios for this ad? So I'm going to be in a Superman thing on a Saturday and we're down 0-2. And there's just been a national dialogue about whether I'm a superstar or not for three days. And now I'm in a Superman commercial. Maybe, maybe hold off till July on those. I don't know.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  Okay, let's do this though. Tie game, shot clock is off.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  How many guys will you name that you feel better about than Tatum?

• 1:42:43Bill Simmons?

  Here's the thing, because I heard you do this on Thursday. You feel the same way I did about Tatum this year. I think Tatum's been awesome in the clutch this year. I voted for him third in the clutch rankings, which I still don't really fully understand the clutch rankings. Cause it's like, why isn't Jokic the winner of the clutch player? Like he does everything, but I thought Tatum was really good and reliable and smart in these crunch times. And you know, that went sideways in the first two Knicks games, but I, I, the only thing I don't like with him is the, uh, the step back. Three with the hand in the face and you know, there's a reason heading into yesterday. What was it? The last 32 playoff games, you're shooting 28% from three?

• 1:43:26Bill Simmons?

  That's bad.

• 1:43:28Bill Simmons?

  There's your answer. That means you're taking too many bad threes if you're at 28%. I thought he took some good ones yesterday and then near the end, when they had a big lead, it got a little dicey.

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  I thought about it more since we had these back to back Mitchell performances. I can't wait, can't wait for him today.

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  So it's Jokic, right? It's Luca.

• 1:43:50Bill Simmons?

  So you're saying, give me this scenario. It's like 40 seconds left, tie game. It's a two, one in the series. Like what, what scenario am I looking at?

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  Terrible two for one. So let's just say shot clock is off and it's tied.

• 1:44:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  What just, you just get excited or scared?

• 1:44:07Bill Simmons?

  You made me think of something that I think the two, two for one is this is now become an epidemic. Where we've gone, we've done a 180 now where the two for one team should do this. You get two shots for one, and now the first shot that they're getting on the two for one is the worst shot of the game. And I, I just, it's like, cool. You're, you're going to get a second shot now with three seconds left. You just took a 29 footer with a hand in your face with 30 seconds left.

• 1:44:32Speaker 01

  I swear to God, the league, the league average is like. 50 points per 100 possessions on the first attempt.

• 1:44:38Bill Simmons?

  They're the worst shots always by everybody, everybody in the league.

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  But people would yell at us on the math side of it being like, yes, but you guys are forgetting the payoff of the extra possession. All right, maybe, but okay, but it doesn't mean it's like.

• 1:44:51Bill Simmons?

  Two horrible possessions. Does that add up to one possession?

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  It turns into Seymour Hoffman like Rain Man, you know, and it's just like, what is that? You didn't even give your, you know, it's actually, I don't know if it's worse, but it's bothering me more. Yeah, there will be a time where the shot clock is still on. So you know, the other team is getting the ball back. So say, say it's like 34 seconds left in the quarter, full shot clock, 24. So they're getting it back probably with 10 and they're, you know, maybe 10 seconds. I would say what 14 seconds is the best chance at like a full look. So when I see these possessions, and I promise I'll explain this, there is a moment where you just have to accept they're going to probably be able to run something and it's going to be

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  a halfway decent look. But the team that has the ball will still run the shot clock down to one as if they're preventing the other team from having time that's already in there. And yes, you could talk about offensive rebounds or a ball that goes out of bounds.

• 1:45:52Bill Simmons?

  We got the ball back with 11 seconds left.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  There are a ton of shit attempts in this scenario because guys are acting as if they're running down a clock to a point that like doesn't exist. The other team is most likely in all the scenarios you run, going to have enough time. And so, hey, if you had a good look with five seconds left on the shot clock, and that meant there's 15 game or 19 game clock and their game, their shot clock is off, like it, take the shot with five seconds left on the shot clock. You don't have to run that down to one because they're still getting the ball back with plenty of time for a decent look anyway. And guys have really emphasized running that down to the last possible second when there's still going to be time that you can't work off of the clock other than offensive rebounds and some of the others.

• 1:46:36Bill Simmons?

  We need a whole Sloan conference study on how stupid the two for one is.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  I will not be invited.

• 1:46:41Bill Simmons?

  Can I say one thing on the Tatum end of the game shot clock off?

• 1:46:45Speaker 01

  Cause you're not going to answer it?

• 1:46:46Bill Simmons?

  No, because normally I like it. Guess when I don't like it as much? When Ananobi is guarding him.

• 1:46:52Speaker 01

  Well, that, I mean,

• 1:46:52Bill Simmons?

  I think Ananobe is a nightmare. I have been so impressed. I mean, he's had a really good season. I think he's had a really good stretch and we knew he was good.

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  He's a nightmare.

• 1:47:00Bill Simmons?

  I don't think Tatum can go by him because he's so strong and he moves his feet. So we've seen over and over again with Brown and Tatum, when they go against him, it's like watching somebody try to open a front door that won't open. And they're just like, no, no, it's going to open and they're banging. You can't get by him.

• 1:47:16Speaker 01

  I need to find on synergy because we don't have a second spectrum. I need to find how many shot attempts he's defending. And sometimes again, this shift, you'll see the number and you see the graphic. And if you have time to look at it, you're like, all right, well, I don't, but I would imagine that the staff is going, we do not want to switch into him. And granted, if it's the end of the shot clock and you don't have really any choice and there's nothing else to do, but we need to avoid ISO on ball attacks against this dude. My favorite part of him, Bill, is during that Detroit series, they're trying to get him off a kate as much as they possibly can. And he would still find, it also helps if a big is somebody you don't care about as much and popping out, which was supposed to be a big difference in, in how some of these teams are matching up with each other.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  To your Porzingis point, but his fight to get back into the play and challenge, even though he's been kind of run off with a screen. I mean, he's, he's at that size, man, he's, he's really special and it's just kind of fun to get to watch it at this level of the season.

• 1:48:14Bill Simmons?

  He's been a big winner of the playoffs. Uh, if I'm the Celtics, near the end of the games or the end of the plays or when I need a basket, I just feel like there's better options. And especially if Towns is out there and Brunson is out there, whoever is guarding, whoever those guys are guarding, that's my first thought. And even if that means we're, we have Peyton Pritchard with Mitchell Robinson on the right side. And he's going to go one on one with him with 17, seven seconds left. I like it.

• 1:48:41Bill Simmons?

  Cause I, I just, I just feel like there's ways to attack this team that for whatever reason, they weren't doing it. Well, we'll see what happens tomorrow night. I think the Celtics are going to be in for a really hard game tomorrow. I mean, it's not a game I would bet.

• 1:48:55Bill Simmons?

  And I'm worried about the Knicks. No.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  How many margaritas?

• 1:49:02Bill Simmons?

  The entire day?

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you were pretty on it. And it wasn't like you were breaking down Minnesota Golden State.

• 1:49:09Bill Simmons?

  We had four.

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  I know, why aren't they playing Bogan?

• 1:49:11Bill Simmons?

  We had four during the game, but I was also like powering water because that's the vet move. People don't realize, you don't realize that when you're in college. Just drink a lot of water. It gives you like superhuman. Yeah.

• 1:49:24Bill Simmons?

  All right, one more break for the podcast and then we got to talk lottery. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what? You're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle, whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season. Whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault.

• 1:50:04Bill Simmons?

  You're going to want WeatherTech for American made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. Lottery karma rankings. I did, I used to do this as a column once upon a time. I did not send you my list. I was just going to go through and have it react. I'll read you the teams with the odds. And their top four odds. And basically come down to. Who I think should win from a karma standpoint for the lottery? All right. So what does that entail? What does that mean karma for a lottery?

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  What does it mean? Yeah.

• 1:50:42Bill Simmons?

  Did you behave the right way as an organization and a basketball team?

• 1:50:47Bill Simmons?

  Did you bastardize your season?

• 1:50:49Speaker 01

  Ethical tanking, what you're saying.

• 1:50:52Bill Simmons?

  Have you won in the past? Have you already been given? A bunch of lottery carrots over the years?

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  Cleveland point.

• 1:51:00Bill Simmons?

  This is the Cleveland point.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  When you lock your shit on TV.

• 1:51:02Bill Simmons?

  Three times in four years. This is fucking ludicrous.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  I, by the way, just a quick aside, when you would lose your mind to a non receptive audience on TV. I enjoyed it.

• 1:51:13Bill Simmons?

  Thank you.

• 1:51:13Speaker 01

  Because you weren't really even talking to anybody. I don't even know if you were talking, you were just so mad. Like this shouldn't happen. And yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:21Bill Simmons?

  Everybody's just staring at me.

• 1:51:25Bill Simmons?

  Are you just doing the right thing as an organization? Are you on a good run? Right? Do you deserve it basically because you're just doing the right things? You're making good decisions, you're picking good players. Maybe you made a good trade.

• 1:51:38Speaker 01

  Don't lie.

• 1:51:40Bill Simmons?

  Right. So anyway, my number one team for the lottery karma rankings. Drumroll, Preece. The Houston Rockets. They have 3.8% odds to win the number one pick and 17.3 to win the top, get in the top four. They got the pick from that Brooklyn trade they have. So this is basically Phoenix's pick. And I still, to this day, didn't really love the James Harden trade that much that they made for Brooklyn, but it turned out fine. But they've made a lot of good draft picks and they've set themselves up in a really nice way. I even like the Shengun Green contracts they did. I'm interested to see what they do this summer. And I think of everyone in the lottery, they've earned the right to say like, you know what?

• 1:52:25Bill Simmons?

  We've just done it the right way here the last couple of years. So that'd be my first pick, your reaction.

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  Hard to argue when we go based on your criteria.

• 1:52:40Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Number two. By the way, what if Houston gets the top four? They become a content machine for The Ringer and for our pods. Content machine.

• 1:52:55Speaker 01

  I thought we were gonna do 30 minutes of Giannis to the Thunder today.

• 1:52:59Bill Simmons?

  Don't think I didn't have it written down for alternate.

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  I had a prep.

• 1:53:03Bill Simmons?

  If Denver wins. No, it's like, shit, like this is now, this is now happening.

• 1:53:09Speaker 01

  Is Wiggins for Reeves?

• 1:53:11Bill Simmons?

  Like, how does that work?

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  Go ahead.

• 1:53:13Bill Simmons?

  Can I give you some Giannis intel?

• 1:53:15Speaker 01

  Please do.

• 1:53:17Bill Simmons?

  Everyone in Milwaukee thinks he's coming back.

• 1:53:21Bill Simmons?

  Now granted, the weeks pass and you never know, but um.

• 1:53:27Bill Simmons?

  I don't think they're expecting a trade request.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a follow up?

• 1:53:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  Say the Thunder were to lose.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  And Presti calls, it's like, okay. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna crank up our ceiling. Would it behoove the Bucks? Which I've said from the beginning, if Yanis goes, hey, I'm fine. Then you just keep him. And if it means you win 50 games.

• 1:53:49Bill Simmons?

  Just proactively trade him without even asking him?

• 1:53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, go, I don't want to do this again in 26. Yeah.

• 1:53:57Bill Simmons?

  Who do I get him from OKC? Holmgren has to be in it, right?

• 1:54:02Bill Simmons?

  He has to be in it, not hanging up unless he's in.

• 1:54:04Speaker 01

  Well, you need good players because of the draft stuff that you've laid out.

• 1:54:08Bill Simmons?

  But Holmgren has to be in the trade.

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  Well, I imagine you have to get somebody good. Yeah. So would you rather have Chet than Jalen Williams?

• 1:54:16Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I'd rather have Chet.

• 1:54:21Speaker 01

  I would rather have Chet too. I'm very excited about Chet. I'd like him to be a little more confident in that three if he misses a couple of early ones. But you know, we can get there at the end of this round. So who knows?

• 1:54:29Bill Simmons?

  What is he 20, is he 22, 23? I'm a big Chet fan. That I think the only thing that worries me is that the, he's had two injuries already. And now granted, it's like, wow, but I just.

• 1:54:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:40Bill Simmons?

  Injured big guys make me nervous. Um, my next one.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Body fat of 6%.

• 1:54:46Bill Simmons?

  My number two team in the ladder karma rankings.

• 1:54:50Bill Simmons?

  The Washington Wizards.

• 1:54:53Bill Simmons?

  14% odds for number one. 52.1 to be in the top four. And first of all, I liked their draft last year. They've changed their organization around. I don't think they've been like crazy just fun. I even kind of liked the Jordan Poole trade looking back like, fine.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  Especially if you're tanking.

• 1:55:12Bill Simmons?

  This is more selfish. We need more good players in the East. And you and I need more good players in the 4pm PT games. I just feel like we're late.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  I can't watch the Pistons all 82.

• 1:55:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. What are we gonna do? Is we get the Pistons, some Celtic games, like we just.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  I think I've watched enough Atlanta.

• 1:55:31Bill Simmons?

  Need to beef up, we need to beef up those, that crew. Um.

• 1:55:37Bill Simmons?

  And I just feel like I like the way they've handled the last couple of years for the most part. So that was a strong number two, your reaction.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  Like that group.

• 1:55:46Bill Simmons?

  They have one in the past a couple of times.

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  At least there feels like there's a plan and direction and look winger is a stud. Everybody's talked about the stuff he did at OKC, what he's done with the Clippers. So he is, uh, he's a guy that I know privately that I would, I guess I'm saying it publicly. Like if the Wizards end up with it, good for him. Good for winger, good for this fan base. Cause you know, no one's, that fan base, that was a fun team that you never took that seriously. But it's kind of a sneaky awesome fan base. And they have had, they have had nothing. They've had, like, think about the Caps, think about the commanders.

• 1:56:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  Those are, those are some of the best fan bases in their respective sport. And this basketball team, like going back to Jeff Malone and, you know, when they had Ruland,

• 1:56:36Bill Simmons?

  Frankie Johnson.

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  Cliff Robinson, that terrible, terrible 1986 trade with the Sixers. But it was a team that you're always like, oh, you know, they may bring it tonight. And it was, I don't know, they always felt like a little bit more on the radar. And this is a very, very long time. You know, flirtation with the, the Westbrook Beal run that year, uh, when Beal probably showed us enough of like, oh, is that guy going to be a dude that checks out on the team? Yeah, I, I think it's a really, cause I think of the fan base too. I think of the fan base a little bit and what they deserve. And I think that fan base is long overdue for some good news.

• 1:57:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they won while the last really fun team that seemed like they had a chance to maybe make the finals was that 2017 team that lost to, uh, the one and only Kelly Olynyk. They had a fun Arenas run there for about a split second in the mid 2000s.

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:26Bill Simmons?

  And they had a fun split second with C Webb and Juwan and Rod Strickland and whatever that was, even though they got swept in round one, people remember it fondly now.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  But think about this, like, think about what you're reaching for here for.

• 1:57:39Bill Simmons?

  Listen, I've known House since 1988 and he's never had anywhere remotely approaching Cooper flag. The best players he's had since I've known him, which is two thirds of my life now, were Bernard King in the 1990, uh, C Webb. The, the, not washed up, but getting there Mitch Richmond. And then Arenas and then Bradley Beal and Wall. So anyway, I have them second, number three Portland.

• 1:58:08Speaker 01

  By the way, real quick, I'm putting you on the spot. What do you think their highest win total was in the eighties?

• 1:58:15Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I don't definitely not in the 50s, probably like 45 and 37.

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  That's why you're the, that's why you're the best.

• 1:58:22Bill Simmons?

  Is that what it was?

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  Forty-three, 39 in 1982.

• 1:58:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they've been horrible.

• 1:58:27Speaker 01

  Remember the head coach.

• 1:58:28Bill Simmons?

  They won the 78 title?

• 1:58:32Bill Simmons?

  And that was almost 50 years ago. All right. So third one. They won the title so long ago that the team that they beat has not been in their city for 20 years. That's how long it's been. Number three.

• 1:58:43Speaker 01

  They won 48 games that year too. That's weird. Forty-four.

• 1:58:46Bill Simmons?

  Number one odds for Portland, 3.8, top four, 16.9. Uh, the reasons here, the Dame trade was the right trade. I think they get rewarded for that. The Abdi trade was probably the sneaky move of the summer last year. We're still in it with our guy Scoot. I like their weird collection of assets. The Billups coaching hire turned out to be pretty good. I think they extended him. And it's arrow pointing up in a lot of ways. Should be a good spot for Cooper Fleck.

• 1:59:14Speaker 01

  I like it except for I just feel like

• 1:59:17Speaker 01

  does that diminish Scoot's star?

• 1:59:20Bill Simmons?

  Or does it lift him?

• 1:59:25Speaker 01

  All your arguments for both? Yeah.

• 1:59:27Bill Simmons?

  It gets tough after the top three, Russillo, for the lottery karma rankings.

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  So you think it's a, a clear tier one of those three teams that have done it, that deserve it, done it the right way?

• 1:59:37Bill Simmons?

  Houston, Washington, Portland.

• 1:59:41Bill Simmons?

  Fourth one, Utah. Number one odds, 14%. They have the best. They're in the one spot. So even if a couple of teams jump them, they'll still be there.

• 1:59:51Bill Simmons?

  Six teams have never had the first pick in the draft. Can you name them?

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 1:59:58Bill Simmons?

  Utah's one of them. So there's a hint.

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  Utah, uh, Toronto. No, they had it with Bargnani.

• 2:00:05Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 2:00:06Speaker 01

  El Magico.

• 2:00:07Bill Simmons?

  It's a really hard question.

• 2:00:10Speaker 01

  It is a tough question. Has Dallas ever had it?

• 2:00:13Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 2:00:14Speaker 01

  They have.

• 2:00:15Bill Simmons?

  Mark Aguirre.

• 2:00:17Bill Simmons?

  I'll give you the six. The Denver Nuggets. The Indiana Pacers, the Memphis Grizzlies,

• 2:00:26Bill Simmons?

  who famously came one spot away from LeBron James 2003.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jerry West.

• 2:00:36Bill Simmons?

  Lottery reactions of all time. Miami Heat have never had the number one pick and the Oklahoma City Thunder have somehow never had the number one pick.

• 2:00:45Bill Simmons?

  So Utah, they took care of Will Hardy, which I appreciated. They gave him a contract till 2031. Like, sorry, dude. Sorry. We had to make you do that the last two years. Their owner has been great. I think he's probably the best kind of new wave owner the league's brought in in the last 10 years.

• 2:01:05Bill Simmons?

  But they did. They did really tank pretty aggressively.

• 2:01:11Bill Simmons?

  But I think it would be fun to have flag go to this team. So I'm going to overlook some stuff with them. I have them fourth. Your reaction?

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  I believe they should be in tier one. I mean, we sit here. We want to play the tanking game and say the Wizards did it the right way. And then Utah did it the wrong way. And I'm sure plenty of basketball people would agree with you. But look, Mitchell was going to want out. They cleaned up on the Rudy thing. They hit reset on a team that, you know, we just pointed out earlier in the pod. Remember when they won all those games? It was a 59 win profile team. And then immediately they're like, hey, boys, this is the playoffs. It's going to, it's not going to translate like it does for other teams, you know, sometimes you have regular season to play up. I think the most important part of this, you've got me on whatever tier of ethical tanking you have these teams ranked through.

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  But as far as what Utah needs, okay, what they need is a guy that may want to actually stay in Utah for 10 years.

• 2:02:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  I think the only way they're ever going to get somebody who's a franchise changing player is to get a Cooper flag in the draft.

• 2:02:14Speaker 01

  They're not going to be a destination for free agency, even though I've heard Brian Smith, the owner like laid it out like, hey, we're not small market. Like, look how great.

• 2:02:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:21Speaker 01

  All these things. I think if you're a simple guy, you'd actually like to play in Salt Lake. I think Salt Lake's oddly confusing to a lot of different people. Like, it's just, it's, it's kind of more convenient than Denver.

• 2:02:33Bill Simmons?

  Salt Lake's awesome.

• 2:02:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:02:35Bill Simmons?

  I'm buying Salt Lake stock.

• 2:02:37Speaker 01

  I am with you. I'm buying.

• 2:02:38Bill Simmons?

  They have a hockey team.

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  They don't have 16th Street like Denver. So that's a positive.

• 2:02:43Bill Simmons?

  They got rid of Sundance. I think that helps the cap.

• 2:02:46Speaker 01

  That's out?

• 2:02:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Sundance going to Boulder.

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  Never made it.

• 2:02:54Bill Simmons?

  Um.

• 2:02:55Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 2:02:56Bill Simmons?

  All right. I'm, I'm happy to consider them being in.

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  They should be tier, tier one because.

• 2:03:00Bill Simmons?

  I, the Will Hardy thing made me bad mad because I think he's a really good coach and you just removed two years of, like, imagine if you, like, when you came to work for us in 2018, if I was like, yo, first two years, I'm going to need you to really just like fuck up the first 15 minutes of your podcast because we need the downloads to be down. And then you can try and try some stuff, but I don't really want it to be good yet. But 2021, I really want the pod to be good. So just kind of.

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  So you'd say, hey, we want to suppress your value.

• 2:03:34Bill Simmons?

  No, don't try.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  This is a terrible analogy. It's not going to work.

• 2:03:37Bill Simmons?

  I'm just trying, but imagine being in the, being in the position of like, don't do your best.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  Hey, we're not.

• 2:03:45Bill Simmons?

  There's going to be ways to win this game. Don't use them.

• 2:03:48Speaker 01

  We're going to have to have you to do everything still over the phone. This whole Zoom thing that you're seeing on the other shows.

• 2:03:53Bill Simmons?

  Moving to video, just two more years, audio only.

• 2:03:58Speaker 01

  Um, well, I mean.

• 2:03:59Bill Simmons?

  I just think that sucks to be like, this is how I have to coach. Like, my organization doesn't want me to win, but we both agree. That's what you have to do when you're Utah. You have to play it that way. It's just a confounding thing about the league.

• 2:04:13Speaker 01

  If you're trading for somebody, you know, that's probably a small target of like, who gets traded for? That's a franchise changing player. That's like, I'm here and I want to stay. You're probably not going to be able to use your cap space on anybody. So you need somebody to come through, which I think this is a great organization, whether it's ownership, Ange, Xanic, Hardy. I am probably a little too, like, I do wonder if Hardy in a private moment with a, with a beer with a couple of friends. Says, well, it looks like I'm not catching Popovich anytime soon. Right. Cause all of those numbers are when you pull up his basketball references. It's like, that's what my winning percentage is, and that's what my record says it is. You could also argue too, it's like, we're going to give you this, this shot at a very young age to be this coach and maybe there's a different path you're stuck in as a second or third assistant

• 2:04:58Speaker 01

  somewhere else, and you don't even get this opportunity until seven or eight years later.

• 2:05:02Bill Simmons?

  The Spurs coach.

• 2:05:03Speaker 01

  It, my argument for Utah and why I want them to win the lottery is this Cooper flag in Salt Lake would be the most important piece for a franchise that needs it, considering all the challenges that they have faced historically in transactions.

• 2:05:21Bill Simmons?

  I'll move them up to tier four, tier one. You, you sold me. I think Washington would have a same kind of impact though. I think he's a game changer for them. They've never had a player come in who is like, and I'm going to make everyone better on this team guy in the last 40 years. Right. That, which is what we think he is.

• 2:05:39Speaker 01

  Do you think you have a Jordan Poole quote, be like, this guy's going to be all right off the bench? Like twan about Pierce. Remember that?

• 2:05:46Bill Simmons?

  Jordan Poole's like, I can't wait to teach him everything I know.

• 2:05:50Bill Simmons?

  All right. Next one is Brooklyn. Their number one odds are 9.9%. Top four, 37%. You know, they sabotaged year one of the Jordi era. They might've been like a 38, 30, they might've been a play in team and they were just like, no way. So I gotta ding them for that, but uh, you know, they've been all over the map. Sean Marks, I guess can just never get fired, but the, uh, the KG trade turned out to be just a grand slam. So you almost like get rewarded for that, right? All the stuff they got in that trade that's still going and going and going.

• 2:06:25Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't be upset if they won. I, you know, there's a whole case of can Brooklyn even survive unless they had a guy like this in New York City? Like when you think about what happened with the Knicks this year, I just think Brooklyn's going to be the ugly stepchild of New York basketball forever, unless they get a guy like this. So that's the case for it. And uh, Phineas Pizza outside Barclays, I got, I'm going to throw that in there too. For karma, great pizza.

• 2:06:51Speaker 01

  I think for all the same reasons that we, I don't know, Utah still has more challenges than Brooklyn would.

• 2:07:01Bill Simmons?

  But Right, because we've seen Brooklyn lure guys already.

• 2:07:03Speaker 01

  Right. There's nothing on this Brooklyn roster that even gets you excited to the point of like even Lowry marketing.

• 2:07:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Charlotte's next. 14% number one odds.

• 2:07:18Bill Simmons?

  Played the game like everybody else did. Uh, new ownership. I like Charles Lee.

• 2:07:24Bill Simmons?

  I wonder if you get flagged, how many guys are still on this team two years from now? If you get flagged?

• 2:07:32Bill Simmons?

  Over, under two and a half? Would you go over or under two years from now?

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  Uh, you'd say two and a half is the number.

• 2:07:41Bill Simmons?

  Over and under two and a half, who's on the 2028, 29 season roster.

• 2:07:47Speaker 01

  Well, it's already two with LaMelo and Miller. So.

• 2:07:51Bill Simmons?

  LaMelo? We sure?

• 2:07:54Speaker 01

  Kinda.

• 2:07:56Bill Simmons?

  Are we?

• 2:07:58Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:07:59Bill Simmons?

  Miller, who?

• 2:08:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't know.

• 2:08:04Speaker 01

  Miller, I don't know. It looks like he's gonna be really good.

• 2:08:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, sure. I don't know. I don't trust. I wouldn't say they.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  Mark Williams has already been traded. Miles Bridges is a different conversation. Grant Williams, leadership council.

• 2:08:19Bill Simmons?

  Your guy, uh, Saloon, I don't know.

• 2:08:20Speaker 01

  Diabate, Saloon, Salon.

• 2:08:24Bill Simmons?

  Whatever his name is. I don't know.

• 2:08:25Speaker 01

  People forgot. That's how bad this year went. Yeah.

• 2:08:27Bill Simmons?

  Not a strong rookie year.

• 2:08:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, Salon.

• 2:08:29Bill Simmons?

  Some tough basketball reference.

• 2:08:32Speaker 01

  I told you, I liked watching. I didn't know if it was gonna be any good or not.

• 2:08:37Bill Simmons?

  I didn't sell the stock yet, but I, you know, I do have a red flag next to it. Chicago number one odds, 1.8%, but uh, I like some of the trades that they recently made. Uh, we're just, we're in a weird territory here because we've got Toronto number one odds, 7.5%. You and I have hated them.

• 2:08:55Speaker 01

  Wait, wait. Make the case for Chicago. Isn't there something to be said of like?

• 2:09:01Bill Simmons?

  No, they've, they're, it's pathetic that they don't spend money. Right? I don't, I think they've spent the tax once in 15 years, but I just like some of the guys on the team. So I was thinking from a karma standpoint. I enjoy Kobe White. I like Giddy.

• 2:09:18Bill Simmons?

  Vooch I've enjoyed putting flag on that team. I think would be, would be fun. That's really

• 2:09:22Speaker 01

  Coop's zealous? Posters?

• 2:09:24Bill Simmons?

  Possibly. Toronto, 7.5%. You and I have not liked their moves.

• 2:09:35Bill Simmons?

  I, uh, the only reason they're this high is because there's four of their teams that have to be lower than them. And I don't really make, I can't come up with a case for Toronto.

• 2:09:49Speaker 01

  I have nothing to add.

• 2:09:50Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 2:09:52Bill Simmons?

  Now we're in the bottom four. New Orleans, their number one odds are 12.5%.

• 2:10:00Bill Simmons?

  They've drafted really well, which we've talked about many, many times. They've made some really bad trades.

• 2:10:08Bill Simmons?

  They seem like they're jinxed as a franchise and as a basketball city. This would be the one city I'd be actually worried for Cooper Flag if he went there because it just seems like nothing good happens there. Um, but the fun piece is from Akkarma Basketball, if they did get Flag, it opens up content left and right for us. There's so many possible trades. They might be good right away. It could be like he could swing them by 20 wins potentially just because they already had a lot of talent in place. So that part's fun, but man, it just feels like they've had a lot of luck already with like they won the Zion lottery.

• 2:10:43Bill Simmons?

  You know, like it's hard to say, oh, man, they're due. Like they literally won one of the three hardest lotteries that we've had for what people wanted in the last 15 years. So.

• 2:10:55Bill Simmons?

  That's the case for New Orleans for and against.

• 2:10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I probably would like them to get it a little bit more. I don't know if it hits a reset on the franchise. My guess is most owners wouldn't win the lottery and they'd be like, okay, cool. Now let's be bad around just winning the lottery. And maybe, I don't know what to believe on whether or not there's a, everybody's all on the same page about keeping Zion. I just don't have any more years you can keep going into a season like hoping this thing is going to work out. And even if you traded him, it ended up being a star somewhere else. Cause I think there's a history there where it's like, well, look at Baron Davis did when he left. What could happen with Chris Paul when he left? Look what happened with Anthony Davis when he left. If that's bleeding into your decision making, then I don't think you are making the right decision with this. But we all realize how special Zion can be when it's out. I don't even care if I traded him and he was awesome

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  somewhere else. I could not go back into another season. Having every one of our hopes tied to somebody where it feels like it just ends bad all the time. And if you win the lottery with Cooper and Trey Murphy, I would start, you know, again, nobody, nobody likes when the media is just sitting there telling everyone to blow it up all over again, but they might be the perfect candidate for it because they have drafted well. There's other players like we didn't even mention Herb Jones anymore because he's been hurt. I would just try to figure out what I could do.

• 2:12:10Bill Simmons?

  Murray's out for most of the year.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you know, CJ is a nice player. There's probably still some value there. It doesn't mean you're gonna have like seven guys, uh, aspiring this offseason?

• 2:12:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this next year is, is, he's an expiring heading into next season.

• 2:12:26Speaker 01

  Got it, got it, got it.

• 2:12:26Bill Simmons?

  Um, I looked up the Zion contract stuff to familiarize myself with it. And I thought there was like partial guarantees. They could let him go before July 15th and just get completely out of it, which I

• 2:12:37Speaker 01

  I wouldn't do that. That's

• 2:12:38Bill Simmons?

  I had forgotten that that was an option.

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  No, because Shams brought it up. Remember when he wasn't playing, doing, by the way, they could just go ahead. To me, that's insane. There's still, there's always another team that's thinking, if we get him with us, the ceiling version of Zion with us, that guy is not for free. I know what you're saying, but I've heard the argument before. There's no way you would just go out. Let's just

• 2:13:01Bill Simmons?

  I'm not saying I would do it. I'm just saying it's in play. It's a thing that they could do.

• 2:13:07Speaker 01

  Okay. You're saying it's in play, but it's

• 2:13:09Bill Simmons?

  You know what else is in play?

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 2:13:11Bill Simmons?

  They could trade for somebody who takes the Zion contract and immediately intends to waive the contract because this will be their way to get out of a shitload of money.

• 2:13:22Speaker 01

  I just don't think that he is at that point where you would want nothing or acquire him to get off of money to then waive him.

• 2:13:31Bill Simmons?

  You know why? You're right. Because you could do this all again next year. Yeah, you could take, even if you're trading for him, you could take a flyer and I'm knowing that, all right, if this goes badly again, next year I could just get out of it and waive him again. But I just, everyone is so desperate to shed money. I just think it's notable that somebody makes $39 million a year who could match with anyone in trade, you could then waive and get out of all the money, all the apron shit that comes with it. I don't, I, I don't think that's nothing. It's my worst fear for the Celtics.

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  What, that they would trade for Zion and then waive him?

• 2:14:06Bill Simmons?

  Like the new owner is like, now that I have the team, guess what? We're cutting costs.

• 2:14:13Bill Simmons?

  We've traded for Zion and we're waiving him.

• 2:14:15Speaker 01

  Sounds like somebody was having some down oh two thoughts.

• 2:14:18Bill Simmons?

  That I think this is my fourth margarita. The Knicks started to come back. I was like, oh my God. Uh, all right. Bottom three, San Antonio, third from last, number one odd, 6.8. They won with Wemby. That's really the only reason.

• 2:14:30Speaker 01

  You can't win with the Admiral Duncan Wemba Yama.

• 2:14:35Bill Simmons?

  And then you get Cooper flag. It's fucking ridiculous.

• 2:14:37Speaker 01

  Cause I know everybody was listening like, hey, the Spurs, they do it the right way.

• 2:14:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they've had too much luck.

• 2:14:42Speaker 01

  No, we're good.

• 2:14:42Bill Simmons?

  You get Duncan, Wemba, stop.

• 2:14:44Speaker 01

  No one's going to agree with us. We're right.

• 2:14:47Bill Simmons?

  We're right.

• 2:14:49Bill Simmons?

  Which leads us to the second to last karma team, the Philadelphia 76ers. Their number one odds are 10.5%, top four, 42%. If it falls seven or lower, they're in the five spot now. If two teams jump them, OKC gets their pick. I just don't think you should be able to stumble into Cooper flag after the summer they had last year. It's ridiculous. It's outright ridiculous. I'd be happy for Maxi. I'd be happy for McCain. But, um, the Embiid extension combined with the Paul George four years and, and trotting out the big three media dialogue and the title stuff and all of it. If it leads to Cooper flag, that's outrageous. No offense to our Philly fan friends. It would be outrageous.

• 2:15:37Bill Simmons?

  It really would be.

• 2:15:40Speaker 01

  I almost want it to happen. People are going to be so pissed off. People are going to be so mad because it was.

• 2:15:46Bill Simmons?

  This is how it played out? Really?

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  What? It wasn't just that this was on the table. It's when everything was falling apart and then you were looking at their record. And then the Sixers are going to those games being like, you think you're fucking tanking? We're fucking tanking.

• 2:16:00Bill Simmons?

  Introducing the Bona.

• 2:16:02Speaker 01

  Oh, hey Nets, you want to play hard in the fourth quarter? We're running ISOs for Edwards. Like, fuck you guys.

• 2:16:08Bill Simmons?

  They already did like Tanya Harding, Quentin Grimes. They were just gonna hire some fat guy to hit him on the side of, side of the leg on the bench.

• 2:16:16Speaker 01

  Well, Toronto kept winning these games because their defense was somehow incredible this late into the season and, uh, or they had that stretch, I would, I would say that.

• 2:16:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:24Speaker 01

  You're like, how the hell is Toronto keep winning some of these games? But Philly, and I see, I think Philly, like in a way, I, I like what they did where they're like, we're not screwing around.

• 2:16:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:39Speaker 01

  Even though Quentin Grimes for that, that stretch, it's like, are they going to cost them this top six protection on this thing? So we were chasing the top six protection. We're following all of that stuff. Like, are they going to actually lose this pick? Like the worst case scenario of what could happen here, considering how bad the season is, like on top of everything else. And guess who else has the pick? Oh, great. It's OKC. What a shocker to then getting Cooper Flag. I think that'd be a lot for, for people to handle. I think people would rather the Spurs with it, with the 76ers.

• 2:17:06Bill Simmons?

  Embiid, think of the headline, Embiid excited to take Cooper Flag under his wing. A new long ESPN feature.

• 2:17:18Bill Simmons?

  Last but not least. Now, it's weird because they should be last in the lottery karma rankings. But they, you could also make a case they should be first.

• 2:17:28Speaker 01

  Cause of the fans.

• 2:17:29Bill Simmons?

  The Dallas Mavericks, number one odds, 1.8%, top four, 8.5%.

• 2:17:36Bill Simmons?

  To do that Luca trade and then end up with Cooper Flag would be a moral outrage, not even an outrage. I'd be morally outraged. My morals would be discombobulated by it. I just can't believe that's how it would work out. It would make me so mad. Like, really? You motherfuckers just got Cooper Flag after making the dumbest trade anyone has, has ever seen? And it worked out and you got Cooper Flag out of it? I, but on the other hand, for the Mavericks fans who are as traumatized and upset about a trade as any fan base I've ever seen since I've started to like sports. I'd be happy for them. But I think they have to be last.

• 2:18:20Speaker 01

  I feel like the fan part should prevent them from being last. Like, why are the Sixers?

• 2:18:26Bill Simmons?

  You go last for Philly.

• 2:18:27Speaker 01

  Why are the Sixers? What about San Antonio?

• 2:18:32Speaker 01

  Because at least they'd be rewarded for.

• 2:18:35Bill Simmons?

  They've done some good stuff, San Antonio. The Fox trade was good. Castle pick was good.

• 2:18:43Bill Simmons?

  They, they tanked while also seeming like they cared about the season, which I think is a hard line to straddle.

• 2:18:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but see, I, I'm, that's almost why I appreciate Daryl and the Sixers were going, you guys want to act like there's these rules of engagement shit? You guys want to have one of those operations where it's like, yeah, we're sort of invading this area, but we're kinda not. Because we gave it a title. Like, you ever want to go through and just laugh your ass off? Look at some of the military operations titles. Just the branding of them to try to make everybody feel a little bit, but like, nothing's even called a war anymore. And when I think about what the Sixers did, you can call this whatever you want. Label it whatever you want. There are no rules, like, we're doing this.

• 2:19:30Bill Simmons?

  And it was crazy basketball, nobody remember in a year.

• 2:19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, you know, look, whether it's that Dallas argument years ago, where it felt like it was terrible, or the Doug Peterson Philadelphia Eagles thing, where it made sense for the Eagles to lose that game, but because it's the national broadcast, we're seeing it happen in real time, and everybody's got their phones out, and there's no other games on to distract us from it, then it becomes this, like, act against humanity. And I, I don't like, like, I know what you're saying, where the Spurs did it in the decent way, right? Utah wasn't perhaps as decent. Yeah. You know, again, we're, keep using that word that everybody loves about ethical tanking or ethical hoops.

• 2:20:09Speaker 01

  I don't know, that just feels, that feels nasty to have Dallas last, but I know you're thinking about Nico, and maybe there was some after Luca, the Lakers lost in five games, the people in the media that suggested somehow we needed to revisit the Nico Harrison conversation? Like, this is like watching a four by 100 relay and seeing the first handoff and going, well, that's over. This is not when you're evaluating this. And by the way, again, it has nothing to do with what the Lakers or Luka didn't do in the playoffs this year. It has everything to do with the execution of this historically bad trade. So even if it turns out in five years, like Lucas heard and like, hey, was Nico right? The process will forever be wrong. And when that team gets eliminated.

• 2:20:50Bill Simmons?

  When Reeves gets traded this summer, and he will get traded.

• 2:20:56Bill Simmons?

  And the stuff that they get back for him is going to make it seem even worse that they didn't get him in the trade.

• 2:21:04Speaker 01

  I know, I know it's a TV show, and this is somebody who's done this for a long time. You know what's happening in those pre-show meetings, be like, hey, do we need to revisit the Nico conversation? It's like, I don't know, what's the rest of the rundown look like? Like, ah, we're kind of light. You know, there's no football stuff. It's like, all right, you know, maybe we'll throw it in the D's.

• 2:21:18Bill Simmons?

  I can do two more minutes on Nico. Yeah, just set me up and.

• 2:21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then sometimes that itself is the segment. Ask the question and then you just shoot down the entire idea. But anyone that really is paying attention, again, and I shouldn't even phrase it that way. Same people would go, this is not a conversation that we can have right now because of an elimination in one year of the playoffs. So go ahead.

• 2:21:40Bill Simmons?

  We have to go?

• 2:21:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:21:42Bill Simmons?

  So I always grab a Dream Team cup when I do the pod.

• 2:21:45Speaker 01

  I love that you do that.

• 2:21:46Bill Simmons?

  I didn't notice that I grabbed John Stockton. I just grabbed one. Does it mean anything that I grabbed John Stockton for the lottery?

• 2:21:56Speaker 01

  Well, Cooper.

• 2:21:58Bill Simmons?

  I had 12 choices of Dream Team cups. I guess Malone or Stockton. So it was a one in six chance I was grabbing a Utah thing, which is basically the exact same odds that they have in the lottery. So I grab a John Stockton. Don't think about it. We'll see tomorrow night if it's a coincidence. All right. Russillo, we're going to watch this game. We're going to, for the podcast, we're going to put at the very top of the podcast, our thoughts on the Cleveland game that we're about to watch. We'll tape a little stuff at the top, but I enjoyed myself as usual. Good to see you, Russillo.

• 2:22:30Speaker 01

  See you in a bit.

• 2:22:31Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Russillo and Eduardo and Gahal. Don't forget, I am coming back tomorrow night with another podcast. Rewatchable is pushed till Tuesday. You still have an extra day to watch Death Wish, which is quite a movie, quite a 70s movie. And I will see you in 24 hours.

• 2:23:03Bill Simmons?

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