20VC: eShares' Henry Ward on Why Portfolio Theory Is Wrong? Why Investors Will Never Take Market Risk & Why You have To Have A Line of Sight To A $Bn Outcome

Henry Ward is the Founder & CEO @ eShares, the No 1 cap table management platform providing equity management, 409A valuations and liquidity all in one place. They are backed by leading investors and past guests including USV, SV Angel, Spark Capital, Semil Shah, Manu Kumar, Tim Draper and Kamal Ravikant, just to name a few. Prior to eShares, Henry was Founder @ SecondSight, the first registered investment advisor to go direct to your brokerage and improve your portfolio. In Today’s Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How Henry made his way into the world of startups and came to found eShares? 2.) How does Henry challenge the notion that investors should have such high fail rates? How does Henry believe investors can build a strong and sustainable portfolio without home runs? 3.) Why does Henry believe that investors will never accept market risk? How much of a role does Henry believe herd mentality plays in the VC ecosystem? 4.) How does Henry view the increasing exit horizons for startups? Is this a problem? How can we create liquidity options pre large exits? 5.) How does Henry view the role of regulation in private markets? How does this differ to public markets? What would Henry like to see change in the VC ecosystem? Items Mentioned In Today’s Show: Henry’s Fave Blog: Hacker News Henry’s Fave Book: The Essays Of Warren Buffett As always you can follow Harry, The Twenty Minute VC and Henry on Twitter here! Likewise, you can follow Harry on Snapchat here for mojito madness and all things 20VC. The Simba Hybrid. The most advanced mattress in the world. With a unique combination of two thousand five hundred conical pocket springs and responsive memory foam, it offers the perfect support for two people. A mattress that responds to you and your partner’s sleeping patterns. Delivered free, with a one hundred night sleep trial, free returns and a ten year guarantee. Start your free trial at simbasleep.com Cirrus Insight is a plugin for sales pros who use Gmail and Outlook. It automatically updates activities in Salesforce so you don’t have to. It was named #41 on the Inc. 500 list of fastest-growing companies, and it has more than 1,700 customer reviews on the Salesforce AppExchange. Today, it serves over 150,000 sales people across 5,000 organizations using Gmail, Outlook, iPhone, iPad, and Android. Cirrus Insight is perfect for sales, support, and success teams who want to save time, schedule 3x more appointments, track email opens and much more with Salesforce information at their fingertips in the inbox. www.cirrusinsight.com/20VC

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  You are listening to the 20 Minute VC with your host Harry Stebbings at H Stebbings with two B's on Snapchat and found pensively writing these days on mojito vc.com. Now for the show today, it's our first Founders Friday of 2017 and boy, do we have a cracker for you in store today as we welcome a founder that has his software literally used by pretty much every investor who's previously been on the show. So I'm delighted to welcome Henry Ward, founder and CEO at E Shares, the number one cap table management platform, providing equity management, 409A valuations and liquidity all in one place. They're backed by the leading investors and past guests, including Union Square Ventures, SV Angel, Spark Capital, Semil Shah, Manu Kumar, Tim Draper and Kamal Ravikant, just to name a few.

• 0:42Harry Stebbings?

  Prior to E Shares, Henry was founder at Second Sight, the first registered investment advisor to go direct to your brokerage and improve your portfolio. I'd also like to say a huge thanks to past guests Nav Athwal at Realty Shares and Manu Kumar at K9 Ventures for the intro to Henry today, without which the show would not have been possible. But before we meet the main man, that is Henry, this new year, we should be committed to sleeping more and that's where Simba Hybrid comes in. It's the most advanced mattress in the world with a unique combination of 2,500 Conical Pocket Springs and responsive memory foam. It offers the perfect support for two people, a mattress that responds to you and your partner's sleeping patterns. Delivered free with a 100 night sleep trial, free returns and a 10 year guarantee. So start your free trial at simbasleep.com.

• 1:25Harry Stebbings?

  Another target of mine for the new year is productivity and there's no better way to be productive than with Sirius Insight. It's the plugin for sales pros who use Gmail and Outlook. It automatically updates activities in Salesforce, so you don't have to. It was named number 41 on the Inc 500 list of fastest growing companies and it's more than 1,700 customer reviews on the Salesforce App Exchange, simply says it all. Today, it serves over 150,000 salespeople across 5,000 organisations, using Gmail, Outlook, iPhone, iPad and Android. And Sirius Insight is perfect for sales, support and success teams who want to save time, schedule three X more appointments, track email opens and much more with Salesforce information really at their tips of their fingers.

• 2:07Harry Stebbings?

  Check it out at www.siriusinsight.com/20vc. However, enough from me, so I'm now delighted to hand over to Henry Ward, founder and CEO at E Shares.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 2:26Harry Stebbings?

  Henry, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show today. Huge thanks to Nav at Realty Shares and Manu at K9 for the intro, and I really appreciate you taking the time out to join me today, Henry.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me, Harry.

• 2:37Harry Stebbings?

  Now, I'd love to get started today by discussing a little bit about you and how you came to found kind of the industry-renowned and much-loved tool that is eShares.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Sure. You know, I moved here in 2010 and I didn't have a job, sort of family was coming out here and I filed family and I, it was one of those things, I never thought I'd start a company, but if you ever thought it might be fun to be an actor and you end up moving to LA, you might audition once. And so I did that and I started another company called Second Sight, a different company. That company was a fintech company. I met Manu with that company. It didn't survive its seed round, so we ended up closing that company. And I was an entrepreneur, entrepreneur without an idea. And Manu and I were having lunch one day and he said, "You know, I have this problem, this stock certificate problem. I would love for a company to exist to solve it. If you'll, if you'll start that company,

• 3:31Speaker 02

  I'll invest in it." And we started working on the idea together over about six months and eventually started the company and that became what is now eShares.

• 3:40Harry Stebbings?

  And I want to start today with a question from, from Manu himself, actually. And it's about the fundraising process. And when looking back at your fundraising process, how hard was it for eShares to raise money initially in the valley in the early days?

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was really tough. The seed round especially was very hard. I think all seed rounds are hard, but this was, I think, exceptionally hard. And it really was difficult for two reasons. One is, I think there was a market, so, not I think, there was a market size question for most investors. You know, at the seed round, investors aren't necessarily looking for what's a great idea. What they're looking for is what a Series A investor will think is a great idea. And so there's sort of this view, like you have to do really big, exciting things, you know, new databases, you know, new ways to share photos. Things that at that time in two thousand twelve were really hot, you know, MongoDB was hot for B two B. Instagram just got sold and so everybody was looking for those types of opportunities.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  And if you were a seed investor in two thousand twelve, looking at E shares two thousand thirteen, you were really looking at this going like this is doesn't this doesn't fit anything that's getting funded today. And so there was a lot of risk around market risk. And then somewhat paradoxically, most of the angel investors that I talked to, the number one question I got was, why hasn't anybody done this? And, you know, my answer was, I don't know, you should ask somebody who doesn't do it. And there was sort of this kind of, I think, pessimism or even a little bit of distrust where this idea seems so obvious to people that because it didn't exist, there must be something wrong with this idea that they didn't know. And so it actually, you would think that people would go, man, this is just such an obvious idea.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  That would actually create more investment. In fact, it actually scared investors away.

• 5:27Harry Stebbings?

  I'm really interested though, but you said about kind of founders chasing the huge markets there. And it's something that's interesting me a lot at the moment, as I've sat in in three pitch decks in the past two weeks, or pitches, and three founders have mentioned the trillion dollar TAM. Now, the question being around that is, have we bred this culture of over ambition, do you think?

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. I think there's a lot of low hanging fruit where there are very valuable problems to solve, but nobody is solving. I often call startups scaling L copy ton, but everybody's looking at how do I get to the top as opposed to how do I get on the wall? And I think one investor said it really well to me as I was fundraising, this is actually for the series A. But he said, you know, Henry, I, I love what you're doing. I think it's valuable, but I need line of sight to a billion dollar outcome. Like, and his example was, you know, they were investors in MongoDB and they said, you know, if you, if you have a new database that works, that's what I'll invest in because I know that if you can start selling and keep selling and you can sell all your way, you know, all the way to a billion dollar outcome on this one product,

• 6:31Speaker 02

  your business, it's not clear where this takes you. And that's been true for us for the beginning is that investor criticism of E shares is there is. Isn't line of sight to a big outcome. This is very much a, you know, we, we get on to each new ledge as we climb the wall and just have faith that at each new ledge, we'll find another ledge, which is a really tough, you know, I sort of tease the investors that didn't invest, but, but I, I understand how difficult an investment thesis it is to say, well, you're going to climb El Capitan, but we actually can't see the route until we're on the wall.

• 7:00Harry Stebbings?

  You mentioned though, the, the layering and kind of the gradual advancement of eShares there. I'm intrigued, and so is Manu actually, to hear your thoughts then on investors not liking businesses that get built in layers in the gradual process that you just mentioned.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  I had another investor in my seed round, who I like a lot, who's now a huge advocate for eShares, but he had said to me, I don't like businesses that require steps because there's dependencies, right? To get to, to get to step B, I need to get through step A and to get through step C, I need to get through step B. And this has always been a step, you know, we have, we have a roadmap, but it requires a number of gates that we have to get through. And it's very understandable from the investor perspective. They're trying to minimize risk as much as possible. Certainly, market risk is one of the big ones and almost all VCs will tell you, they will take on execution risk, they'll even take on team risk, but they'll never take market risk because that's the one thing they can't do anything about, which is why VCs tend to look for really big markets.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  But when you look at execution risk, if there's multiple dependencies that have to happen for you to get to the outcome that, that the investor is looking for, all of that, all that does is introduce risk. The flip side and the way that we think about it is very, very much the Peter Thiel model, which is we like having steps because we have concrete places to win. And so we're very much a, let's win in small markets and then concentrically grow out of that, rather than try to take on a huge market all at once. And so it allows us to get into the habit of winning small markets, building monopolies and increasingly large monopolies. And I think one of the reasons there's such a failure rate in VC, I, I actually challenge the notion that VCs have to have such a high failure rate.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  I think part of the reason there is such a high failure rate is because everyone No one's swinging for home runs, no one's, no one, there are very few VCs that feel like they can assemble a portfolio that consistently bats singles and doubles and can win games doing that.

• 8:59Harry Stebbings?

  That's very interesting. So you think that actual kind of portfolio theory can be achieved and successful returns to LPs cash on cash wise? You know, I think three to four is considered a very successful fund for a mid-tier fund in the US. You think that can be achieved with the medium home runs that you just mentioned?

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Well, I think, I think power law exists and I, I do think that it will, it will be true that the best companies are just, you know, orders of magnitude more than, than the worst companies or even the median companies. But I do think that you can create more best outcomes by looking for companies that have a more stepwise function into a large outcome, that, that start with small markets and grow. You know, my, my favorite analogy is Peter Thiel and Facebook. You know, if you looked at Facebook in the early days, it was, wow, they're really good at getting college students to, to update each other. If you, if you just looked at that, this doesn't look like a very interesting business. But when you look at how quickly they monopolize the Harvard campus, you know, they had 60% of the population in something like seven days.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  That is a very auspicious start. And if you can monopolize small markets, you can quickly aggregate those markets into larger markets, which then produce large outcomes. I think one of the problems with venture today is that everyone just looks at what's the fastest line of sight to a huge market, which does, you know, it's a home run strategy. I swing at every pitch to try to get a home run. But I think there's a lot of pitches that are hittable if, if they weren't trying to do home runs off the first, first swing.

• 10:27Harry Stebbings?

  And with all of them with this kind of combined line of sight vision towards that billion dollar or even bigger outcome, what do you think that suggests about current herd mentality in the valley then?

• 10:37Speaker 02

  I think a lot of venture is momentum investing. And so they're looking at what everybody else is looking at. And it's understandable because even if VC or venture investors are looking for line of sight to a business outcome, they do understand that there's gates that a company has to get through, particularly around financing. So the seed investors They're all looking for, hey, what are the institutional A investors, what are they going to invest in? And then the A investors are, A and B investors are looking at what the growth funds are going to invest in. And then the growth funds are looking at what the public markets will be interested in. And so everybody's sort of looking up the chain. And so there's this natural herd mentality, which is to see what's working and then copy that. It's not irrational at all. It makes complete sense.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  I do think it opens up a gap for really innovative, original thinkers to come in and invest in great ideas. And there's, there's some VCs out there that I think do that really well. Obviously, I think Manu is one of them.

• 11:35Harry Stebbings?

  No, Manu is fantastic. You, you did mention the differing stages there. And one that we're seeing a lot of interesting activity in, or a lack of activity, is, is kind of the IPO stage. What are, what are your thoughts on the increasing time to IPO? Do you think this is a problem and how, how do you approach that?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  I think, I, I think it's a problem in the sense that it's, it's creating a pressure for liquidity that, that currently isn't being serviced. I do think companies, you know, we changed our vest, employee vesting schedule from four years to five years. And I, I think a lot of companies are starting to, to look at that. And it's just the time it takes to, to build a company these days at the scale that venture and, and our investors would like us to build companies at, just takes longer and longer. It's, it's, it's harder, the journey's longer and it's, it's much more expensive. So I think, and I think that trend's going to continue. So I, I don't think this is temporary. I think structurally we're moving towards companies need to stay private longer or would like to stay private longer.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  I think it's only a problem if these companies can't figure out liquidity, if, as opposed to going public. I think one of the big problems structurally in the capital markets world today is we have an environment of hyper liquidity in the public universe and then zero liquidity in the private. And there's literally nothing in between right now. And I think that's, that's an interesting problem to solve.

• 12:56Harry Stebbings?

  Super interesting problem to solve. One man trying is obviously Eric Reese with his kind of public market solution to the tech IPO problem. I'm intrigued, what are your thoughts on, on his solution and, and how? Effective it will be in the coming years.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I met with Eric a month ago and I love what he's doing. I think we're, LTSC and E shares are very highly aligned in how we view the world's problems. I think we differ in sort of how those problems can get solved. One of the things that I think, so, and maybe you'll even have the opportunity to have Eric on the show to correct me. My understanding of the LTSC is they're going to compete with public market exchanges. So they're not sort of providing an alternative for private companies. They're providing an alternative for private companies that go public to trade on an alternate exchange. And they're putting in new rules around how these companies are governed.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  And as an exchange, an exchange has a lot of power to do that. I think one of the challenges in that model is there is a bit of a principal agent problem. The problem that they're solving is corporate governance for the investors. And so they would say like CEOs have a compensation framework that makes sense, that incents for the long term, often means that CEOs aren't making as much money, definitely in the short term. It has rules and more controls around how the companies are governed and gives investors more rights, especially long-term investors. The problem is, is the invest, at the time of IPO, the investors don't decide where a company goes public. It's the CEO, it's the company that decides. And I think one of the big challenges in the public market is this imbalance between,

• 14:36Speaker 02

  what are the rights and incentives of the company and what are the rights and incentives of their investors? I think one of the reasons that private companies work well and are working better and better is that the alignment of management and investors is more highly aligned in the private world than they are in the public world. And that's, that's why companies want to stay private. I think that's also to some extent, I certainly don't want to be, I think there's too much hubris in the private world. I think public companies are, some of them are extremely well-run. I absolutely do not claim that private companies as a whole are better run than public companies. But I do think you see a lot of the innovation happening in the private companies, in part because of the alignment between investors and management teams in private. Companies that doesn't exist in the public world.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  And I think one of the challenges in any public market model, any type of exchange, whether it's LTSC or otherwise, is balancing those two incentives. Because in a public market model where shares of a company are commoditized by the brokers, you will always have a conflict of interest between the issuer and the shareholders. Where in the private world, you can create much better alignment because you control the trading of your stock.

• 15:43Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely, the alignment is fundamental issue with public markets and the hedge funds shorting companies and destroying them potentially. It's a very, it's a very interesting dilemma in terms of kind of the regulation and structure around, around this ecosystem. Semel Shah, one of your investors, asks, how would you like startup financing to be regulated in the future then?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  A lot of people view regulation as bad inherently. I don't view it as bad inherently. I think it can be used poorly, but I think when done well, done right, it's a, it's a huge advantage, actually. And so, for example, one of the, one of the reasons that I think cost of capital for startups is so high is because there's lack of regulation, there's a lack of liquidity. You know, to raise $50,000 from an angel investor in a seed round, it's not just that they're, they're putting risk of dollars on. They're putting liquidity risk because they know they won't get this, they have no way to exit this for a decade. And they also know that they are required to do any diligence and there's no recourse if they've been defrauded. And I think introducing liquidity and regulation as an example could drive down the cost of capital for entrepreneurs.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  And so when I think about regulation in a private market, I, I get personally quite excited. If you looked at regulation and if, when you look at regulation today in the public market and you'd like take series seven exams and all those things, all of the regulatory framework has been duct taped together to, to fix problems that came up. So, so you can tie almost any regulation in the public market model to somebody got defrauded and so we put in this rule to make that happen. And it's a patchwork of rules that holistically don't make a ton of sense. And if you were to redesign, if you could rebuild a regulatory framework for financial markets, you would never do it this way if you could start over. This has been patchworked over the last 90 years.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Thing about the private world is we have an opportunity to rebuild regulation from scratch. So we could say something like, hey, we are going to start a regulatory environment from scratch that makes sense for everybody involved and build it up the way that we want to rather than after the fact as fraud happens. And I think when you look at private markets through that that lens, there's a lot of very obvious things that you would do that make that make a ton of sense and would reduce cost of capital and would free up capital, would protect investors and would help companies raise capital.

• 18:01Harry Stebbings?

  I mean, I'm intrigued then to kind of finish on the on the matter of what would you most like to see change within the ecosystem?

• 18:07Speaker 02

  I would love to see a more progressive view on pre-IPO liquidity or private market liquidity. Because I think if the ecosystem says that there is opportunities for liquidity without going public, I think the cost of capital and the freedom of capital expands dramatically in the private world. If you want to invest in private companies today, it's hard to get in, it's hard to get out. That creates a huge cost of capital for entrepreneurs, makes it harder for companies to grow. And I think may leaves a lot of problems unsolved because nobody can raise capital for them. But I think if we can introduce some concept of a framework for regulation and a framework for liquidity that investors and entrepreneurs are ready to adopt.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  So there's more alternatives than just I want to be the moonshot company that gets the IPO. I think that will trickle back down and create a stronger private market.

• 19:00Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely, I agree. And the increased liquidity, I think, will kind of help foster further grassroots initiatives with the additional capital going in. Very, very interesting. But I do want to dive into a quick fire with you now. So I say a short statement and you give me your immediate thoughts. Sixty seconds per one. How does that sound?

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 19:18Harry Stebbings?

  So let's start, let's start with your favorite book and why?

• 19:22Speaker 02

  My favorite business book is the Essays of Warren Buffett. And it's just a collection of everything he's written, from annual reports and investor letters. If you really want to understand the financial structure of the company's corporate governance and how to build a culture, there's not. Better. He's an and how to write. He is a fantastic writer. It's actually required reading for all the executives here.

• 19:45Harry Stebbings?

  Love that. No, it is my, one of my first ones when I started the show, actually. But then let's do the toughest managerial element for you in running eShares.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  The hardest thing that I've been dealing with lately, you know, we've grown from in 24 months, we've grown from 20 people to 120 people. And the toughest thing for me personally has been understanding that the the alignment of employees has shifted from our problem to their problem. And it's it's part of the challenge at this growth, you know, as the company gets larger. It's to to constantly remind people and help people understand how where they with the work that they do fits into the overall mission of the company. And to make sure they're aligned to the mission and not to their day to day.

• 20:28Harry Stebbings?

  And then in aligning them to the mission, obviously, a lot of companies offer employee stock options. What are the tips and tricks around this?

• 20:35Speaker 02

  So we've just done a couple of things. One is we've made a five year vesting schedule to align employees to stay here longer. I ask employees to to stay here for 10 years. That's that's my goal. And then two is I think we've participated in this PT PTE Extended Option Grant Exercise Period. And we've extended our exercise period, but we've matched it to vesting. So if you've been here two years, your PTE is your time to exercise is is now two years. And I think more and more we'll start seeing companies aligning equity incentives to a much longer timeframe. And a more valuable timeframe for companies. I think the talent war at Silicon Valley would be one with better equity comp than salary comp.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  It's just the the nature of of of these companies. And we already see it with, you know, Facebook. So just recently posted their stock option expense numbers and and they pay a huge amount of their income. Or I would say compensation is done in stock, not in cash.

• 21:33Harry Stebbings?

  And then what's your favorite blog or newsletter? What are the must reads for Henry when they come in?

• 21:37Speaker 02

  I keep an eye on Hacker News for sure. I read stuff that comes out of Andreessen a fair bit. I think the stuff that I I do find stuff on. That's interesting, the stuff, but but sort of broadly, what I find most interesting is what other CEOs write. And so I I try to write and and contribute to the to the general knowledge base. It's it's amazing to me when I see CEOs that did this five years ago, 10 years ago, when there was really nothing. And now the there's so much that I learn from from reading what other CEOs are writing and doing that I apply back here, like the the amount of knowledge is is is growing. It's really, you know, no, there's really no good book for being a CEO.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  The best way to learn is from other CEOs, and that's been super helpful.

• 22:25Harry Stebbings?

  And then the next, and finally, the next five years for you and for E shares, what's in the roadmap?

• 22:30Speaker 02

  I think we are, we have a pretty good software business that's growing. I think where we want to focus over the next five years is really solving a lot of these liquidity problems. We we would like to challenge the notion that the world has to be bifurcated into a public and private world where there's hyper liquidity and and no liquidity and and and challenge the notion that the IPO is the only successful outcome. I guess other than acquisition, but but the IPO is the goal. I think when we look 20 years ahead, our vision for the world is that the great enduring companies will actually be privately held and they will find liquidity in private markets rather than public markets.

• 23:10Harry Stebbings?

  Well, Henry, it was so fantastic to have you on the show today. As I said, I heard so much from Manu and Semil and Toffa. So thank you so much for joining me today. And it was such a pleasure to hear more about E shares.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  I really enjoyed it. Thank you, Harry.

• 23:23Harry Stebbings?

  I want to say again a huge thank you to Henry for giving up his time today to be on the show. Some very exciting times ahead for E shares and a huge hand to Manu at K9 and Nav at Realty Shares for the intro, without which the show would not have been possible. And if you love the show today and would like to see more from me, then do not hesitate to add me on Snapchat at H Stebbings with two Bs, or check out mojito vc dot com. I really would love to hear your thoughts on that. And do not forget what I said earlier, there's no better time to make changes to your life than a fresh new year. And with the new year, we need new routines. And one of mine is sleeping more, mojito unassisted, of course. And that's where the Simba hybrid comes in. It's the most advanced mattress in the world with a unique. combination of 2,500 conical pocket springs and responsive memory foam. It offers the perfect support for two people, a mattress that responds to you and your partner's

• 24:08Harry Stebbings?

  sleeping patterns, delivered free with a 100-night sleep trial, free returns and a 10-year guarantee. So simply start your free trial at simbasleep.com. Another target of mine for the new year is productivity, and there's no better for that than Sirius Insight. It's a plugin for sales pros who use Gmail and Outlook, which automatically updates activities in Salesforce so you don't have to. It was named number 41 on the Inc. 500 list of fastest-growing companies, and it has more than 1,700 customer reviews on the Salesforce App Exchange. Today, it serves over 150,000 salespeople across 5,000 organisations, including Gmail, Outlook, iPhone, iPad and Android, and Sirius Insight is perfect for sales, support and success teams who want to save time, schedule 3X more appointments, track email opens

• 24:53Harry Stebbings?

  and much more with Salesforce information at their fingertips in their inbox. So simply check it out at siriusinsight.com/20vc. As always, I so appreciate your support and I cannot wait to bring you next week's episodes.